James and Intent

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 186996

Montavilla47:
Would you call the person who bullied another student for at least
five years the greatest guy in the world?

Alla:

What is the name of this person? Because I certainly do not consider James to be somebody who bullied another student for at least five years. 

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
What I always thought was curious was the way that many fans
bought that story and created a fanon idea that James and Lily's
was a love for the ages--that James was a great hero and that
Lily's love and courage and were so extraordinary that they invoked
a magic akin to the deep magic created by Aslan's sacrifice in
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. <SNIP>


Alla:

What in DH destroyed the idea that James and Lily dearly loved each other?

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
In DH, I think anyway, we found out that they were really more
ordinary and that the blood protection, while definitely triggered
by Lily's love for Harry, was also triggered by Voldemort's
faithlessness and Snape's love for Lily. In other words, it was
a pretty unique set of circumstances, and, had Snape been in
love with Alice Longbottom instead, and Voldemort more fearful
of pure-bloods than half-bloods, it might have been Neville
with no parents and a scar. <SNIP>

Alla:

Well, we know that it could have been Neville absolutely and I certainly think that any mother could have been in these circumstances, but I really disagree that protection was triggered by anything else than Lily's love for Harry. How was it triggered by Snape's love? You mean the fact that he asked for Lily's life and Voldemort told her to stand aside?

That gave her time, sure, but how did it influenced that mysterious ancient magic? I mean, again, I think it could have happened to any mother protecting her child, I think this was one of the points to say that Potters were not divine, but just ordinary people that loved each other, but what Snape has to do with the magic itself I really do not get.


Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
As someone else said, the books show that James was
an arrogant bully from 11-15, a criminal from about
15 onwards, and a member of the Order from 18-21.

Alla:

That's some interesting interpretation, I should say, especially about him being a criminal from 15 onwards. Is him being criminal means in that interpretation him running with werewolf or did he conduct some other criminal activities that I do not remember? If the person interpreted him running with werewolf as criminal activities, well I completely disagree with that. Yes, I know they had close calls and they could have harmed somebody. They did not, so while I will agree that they were careless, I would also say that I consider it act of friendship. Yes, I am sure fifteen year old teenagers liked it too, before you say it. I still say that not everybody will do it for the friend IMO.

I also of course will not agree to him being a bully from eleven years old, but again here I can at least understand how person will extrapolate from one scene.

Montavilla47:
I think you're being a bit easy on Snape here. He wasn't just
complicit in the deaths of three people. He killed someone with
the Unforgiveable curse. He stood by and watched many die.
He gave information that was helpful in the deaths of Emmeline
Vance and Sirius Black.

Thing is, most of that was when he was in Dumbledore's
service. And, given their relationship in the Prince's Tale,
it's pretty obvious that he was acting under Dumbledore's
orders when he did so.

So, it's not like being a member of the Order of the Phoenix
creates less opportunity for killing or other illegal activity than
being in the Death Eaters.

Alla:

Sure, there is plenty of opportunity to do killing in the war.
I have not noticed members of the Order to cease the opportunity to do much killing actually, although I am sure when they were attacked, they fought back.

Snape was already messed up with the Death Eaters, so of course if he decided to atone for it, he would have to be expected to do dirty stuff, I would think.

And he would not even do it without Dumbledore's manipulations. It is not like he came to Dumbledore and say I want to be your spy. I do wonder if Dumbledore did not extract a promise to do anything in exchange for hiding Lily, would he even return?

Montavilla47:
I was trying not to directly compare James to Snape. It
gets a bit tiresome to keep doing that. It's obvious that
James was a better person than Snape at the time that
James died.

But it's kind of odd to me that I'm supposed to disregard
James's behavior at 15 on the implication that he grew up
to be a better person, and yet Snape's implied (never shown
or stated) Death Eater crimes from a period of about two
years remain as the most important aspect of his character.

Alla:

Snape's implied crimes as member of DE is certainly not the only important aspect of his character to me. It is the most important aspect to me in comparison with James only because in part thanks to Snape there is nothing to compare after that, you know?

Hypothetically James say could have got a teacher's job in Hogwarts and if he treated his student the way Snape treated Harry, you bet I will not call him the better person than Snape.

But I am forced to compare them when they are twenty one, at that time to me James is a better person, but of course with his own flaws.

Montavilla47:
Snape was a snide, anti-social person his whole life,
he was an associate with bullies and future criminals from
11 onwards, a member of the Death Eaters from perhaps
18-20, and a member of the Order from 20-37.

Alla:

Snape was just associate with bullies? Him inventing curses that half of the school ended up knowing does not count for even a hint of him being a bully himself?

Montavilla47:
I hold that they are both flawed individuals, and that
they both ended up on the side of the angels.

Alla:

We agree on that, we just disagree on who was more flawed individual out of two.