What triggered ancient magic? WAS: Re: James and Intent

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 187017

Alla wrote:
> 
> Right, well, I am not disputing that without Snape giving Voldemort a prophecy first and asking him for Lily's life second gave Lily's chance to live. But I am disputing that Snape was a  figure without whom there would have been no ancient magic if that makes sense.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that of course I know that he contributed to set of the circumstances which led to the magic, that's not my point. My point is that I think that any **reason** under which Lily would have been given a choice to step aside and did not step aside would have lead to ancient magic. <snip>

Carol responds:
But we don't need to search for hypothetical reasons. We know that Snape's request is the reason that Voldemort intended to spare Lily. Otherwise, she would have died like James. She was, after all, both a member of the Order of the Phoenix (and consequently already on his hit list) and a Muggle-born. No other DE would have asked Voldemort to spare her life. Snape is the only one who cared about her.


Alla wrote: 
> So, here is what I am saying, say it was true, say this was the reason why Lily was asked to step aside and did not, do you think that magic would not have worked? If so, *this** what I would like to see a canon, why a willing sacrifice (which yes, I know JKR distinguished in interview from James' sacrifice) of this nature would not work.

Carol responds:

Well, sure. If he had told her for any other reason to step aside, actually intending to spare her, actually giving her the choice to live or die, the ancient magic would have worked. But there was no other reason except his promise to Snape, which JKR says he would have kept had she chosen her own life over Harry's. But my point is, Snape's request is the canonical reason that she was given that choice, so hypotheticals don't matter. And, sorry to repeat, but surely no other DE would have made any such request.

Alla wrote:
> 
> Let me stress this again, I *know* that willing sacrifice seems to be the key, what I am disagreeing with is the uniqueness of Snape's contribution to this sacrifice, I mean NOT that he contributed, but why any other hypothetical reasons under which Voldemort would have given her a  choice would not work.

Carol responds:

I guess we're just concerned with different things, then. My point is that the choice is important and that without Snape's request, there's no canonical reason why she would not have died like James. Both Voldemort and Dumbledore stress that she didn't have to die. And the reason that she didn't have to die is Voldemort's (broken) promise to Snape to spare her. If she'd been given the choice to live or die for some other reason, the ancient magic would still have worked, but we'd be discussing that reason rather than Snape as the indirect and unwitting cause of her having that choice.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> We see other mothers protecting their children without Voldemort getting vaporized. The sacrifice that James made in protecting his family did not trigger the magic, either.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Actually, while I am sure mothers died protecting their children, could you tell me where else in the book we see mothers sacrificing their lives for their children? It seems to me that while any mother could have been in Lily's shoes, what she did was indeed pretty unique on pages.
> 
> But sure, I know that James' sacrifice did not trigger the magic.

Carol responds:
I mentioned two such mothers, Marlene McKinnon, who was killed along with her family and must surely have tried to protect them and the mother we see in DH. (There's also the hypothetical example of Neville Longbottom's mother that I quoted earlier, in which Harry thinks that all that matters is stepping between Voldemort and her son--he's unaware of the importance of choice.) Since we don't have a description of Marlene McKinnon's death in canon, I can't quote it, but here's the one of the other mother, who behaves very much like Lily but without triggering any ancient magic that backfires on Voldemort:

"Abandoning the attempt to close the door, she began to back down the dark hall, and Harry [Voldemort] followed, gliding toward her, and his long-fingered hand had drawn his wand.

"'Where is he?'

"'[German phrase that I can't copy.] He move. I know not! I know not!'

He raised the wand. She screamed. Two young children came running into the hall. She tried to shield them with her arms. There was a flash of green light--" (DH 233).

The chief difference between this scene and Lily's death scene is the absence of a choice. The mother tries to shield her children with her arms--as any mother would do and as Marlene McKinnon must have done unless she tried to fight back using a wand, equally uselessly--and LV kills her as he killed Lily.

Harry says, "I've just seen Voldemort killing a woman. By now, he's probably killed her whole family. And he didn't need to. It was Cedric all over again, they were just *there.* (DH 233).

I suppose we could argue that Harry may be wrong and that Voldemort may have left the children alive, but he didn't leave his own grandparents alive when he killed his father, and, as Harry says, he had no reason to kill the woman, either, so why imagine that he would spare her children? If, as seems likely, he killed the two children after their mother stood between him and Voldemort, spreading her arms exactly as Lily did in a vain effort to protect them, then clearly her action triggered no ancient magic. Voldemort survives unvaporized to kill again.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> The thing that distinguishes Lily's sacrifice is that she was given a choice and she chose to protect her child.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes.

Carol:
Right. And that's the key point. It's the one that distinguishes her from James and from other mothers who also tried to protect their children and died in the attempt. Lily and Lily alone had the choice to live. And the reason that she had that choice is Voldemort's promise to Snape to spare Lily (the important information that JKR concealed in the post-HBP interview).
> 
> Montavilla47:
> So, I'm not saying that it was Snape and Voldemort who triggered the special blood protection. It was Snape's request, *plus* Voldemort's agreement to that request, *plus* Lily's refusal to step aside, *plus* Voldemort's breaking his word to Snape that triggered the magic.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> If you are using triggered as meaning Snape and Voldemort contributing to the set of circumstances that led to magic, I agree. Snape gave Voldemort the prophecy and then came to beg for Lily's life.  If you are using triggered as started the magic, I do not agree. In my opinion we are not shown for sure what started the magic besides Lily's sacrifice. <snip>

Carol responds:
I can't speak for Montavilla, but what I'm saying is that Snape's begging Voldemort to spare Lily's life set up the circumstances, giving her the choice to live that no one else had, including James and the mother I just described. But, yes, it was the choice itself, Lily's choice to die in place of her son, that actually triggered the magic. It couldn't have happened without Snape, but his request and Voldemort's promise were contributing factors, necessary conditions, whereas Lily's choice to die was the cause. Had she for some inhuman, unmotherly reason (imagine a female Wormtail as a mother) chosen to live and allowed Voldemort to kill Harry, obviously the magic wouldn't have worked. But I also think that if Voldemort had honored his promise to Snape, Stunning her rather than killing her and ignoring her choice, it wouldn't have worked, either. 

Just dying without a choice doesn't trigger the magic. Without Snape's request and Voldemort's promise, we'd have had three dead Potters. Just asking him to kill her, not Harry, wouldn't have worked, either, if she hadn't actually had the choice--that is, if he didn't actually intend to spare her if she stepped aside. (The mother in the DH scene is implicitly trying to spare her children, putting her body between Voldemort and herself. That didn't trigger the magic.) Again, three dead Potters. And begging him to kill her instead of Harry, even with a choice, would not have worked unless he actually killed her, unless she actually sacrificed herself to save her son and then Voldemort dishonored her intentions by trying to kill Harry, too. Had he just Stunned her, we'd have had a living Lily but a dead Harry, the outcome that young DE Snape, to his discredit, was hoping for and the reason that DD said "You disgust me." Nevertheless, that request, selfish though it was, set up the events that followed, making Lily's choice possible. 

IMO, LV's double betrayal--first killing Lily and breaking his promise to Snape and then dishonoring Lily's choice of dying instead of her son--caused the AK to backfire on the caster as no other AK had ever done. He couldn't kill Harry because of the Love protection created by her choice. Had he honored that choice, he wouldn't have been vaporized.

> Pippin:
> Lily didn't just instinctively throw herself in the way, as any mother might have done. She consciously cast her life between them, and though she couldn't know for certain it would have a magical effect, I think part of the magic came from her intention that it would. She chose not only to die, but to trust love alone to defend her son.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh, that's a good point.

Carol responds:
It's an interesting perspective, anyway. Unfortunately, we don't know her thoughts. We do know that it was her choice to die instead of Harry that mattered.
> 
> Pippin:
> There would have been no love magic if Lily had not believed she could save herself by stepping aside, and Snape is responsible for seeing that she had that choice. But if Voldemort had honored his promise and simply stunned her when she refused to step aside, I think the magic would have worked just the same.

Carol responds:
I disagree. The sacrifice had to be real and complete, her life for his, for it to work. And the fact that she had to protect him, choosing his life over hers actually given that choice (in contrast to everyone else) made the difference as merely *intending* to die but being Stunned instead would not have done.

Carol, who doesn't have time to look up all the blood protection quotes but who's pretty sure that they relate to Lily's *actual* sacrifice as opposed to her mere *intention* to die--not *for* but *instead* of Harry