What triggered ancient magic? WAS: Re: James and Intent

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 187032

> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> This isn't a story in which Lily is offered the choice to step
> aside because she has information Voldemort wants or
> because she's so darn pretty he'd like to take her away to
> his lair. It's a story in which Lily is offered the choice because
> her childhood friend still loves her even though he's
> supposed to hate her.
> 
> Which brings it all back to Love. With a capital Luh.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> As an aside of the sorts, do you really consider what Snape did to Lily to be story about love?

Montavilla47:

Love stories contain bad actions as well as good actions.  
Romeo kills Juliet's beloved cousin.  Mr. Darcy nearly ruins
Eliza's sister's life by his actions, and he ruins the reputation
of her entire family by his inaction.  Jo March almost lets
her sister be killed because of a conflict.

Yet these are all shown to be loving relationships.


Alla:
> I mean putting aside  my belief that without Snape giving the prophecy to Voldemort they may not have needed any hiding, any protection and may have survived, do you think that the fact that he went to ask for her life at first to *Voldemort* not *Dumbledore* is story about love?

Montavilla47:
I don't see how that makes a difference.  He went first to the
person who seemed most able to prevent harm to Lily.  When
he wasn't satisfied that Voldemort would keep that promise,
he went to Dumbledore.

It's not like Dumbledore has a monopoly on love.


Alla:
> When I first read it, I think I felt as if I want to take a shower, so EWWWWW this made me feel. I mean, if Snape went straight to Dumbledore, sure this would have been about atonement and about trying to save the woman he still loves for me.

Montavilla47:
Why?  Voldemort was the one who was planning to kill
Lily.  Surely it makes more sense to ask him to let her live
than a third party who may or may not be around at the 
time that Voldemort shows up.


I agree, though, that by going to Voldemort first, Snape
is showing that he hadn't yet atoned for his joining the 
Death Eaters or changed his mind about their tactics or 
aims.

And I agree that it's less noble than immediately turning
coat and joining the good side.  On the other hand--and I
can hardly believe I'm saying this about anything in HP--
it's probably more realistic.


Alla:
> But he went to Voldemort, what exactly Snape thought that he will do? What if Voldemort indeed made sure that Lily survived? Did Snape think that Lily will rush in his arms, what with her husband and baby's graves are still fresh? It tells me how little Snape respected Lily, how he did not give a flying fig about her choices, about her family. It tells me that it was all about Snape and what he wanted.

Montavilla47:
We don't know what was in Snape's head.  But Harry tells
Voldemort (who certainly thought Snape wanted to get into
Lily's bed) that Snape didn't save her in order to have a 
romantic or carnal relationship with her.  He says quite clearly
that Snape saved her because she was his "friend."

I don't think that we have to believe Harry here.  But I don't 
think it's inconceivable given that after Lily refused Snape's 
apology, he stopped pursuing her.  That argues that he did 
respect her decision in dumping him.


Alla:
> I am speculating of course, but I believe I am speculating based on the canon facts, after all we know that Snape still only wants Dumbledore to save Lily till Dumbledore chastises him.

Montavilla47:
And again, Snape was never in any position to save Harry,
since the whole reason for Voldemort to target the Potters
in the first place is the kid who is going to grow up and kill
him.

He might have been in a position to ask for James's life as
well as Lily's, but that's sort of like Harry begging Voldemort
to spare Draco (before Harry began to feel sympathy for 
Draco).  

Heh.  I wonder--if Dumbledore had decided that Snape was a 
danger to society and put him on a list of DeathEaters to be 
captured and sent to jail, would James (or even Lily) have begged 
Dumbledore to spare their former classmate?

Would they have gone to Voldemort and pledged to do 
"anything" in order to save him?

Alla:
> No, I am not saying that Snape needed to love James and Harry, but I *am* saying that if he truly loved Lily, he may have given more thought about what Lily would have wanted and that something most definitely included her husband and baby being alive.

Montavilla47:
Yeah, probably he would have, if he were thinking straight.
But there were many reasons that he wouldn't be thinking
straight at that time, including his own miserable family life,
the people he was associating with at the time, and the 
general contempt for other people that was the Death Eater
mindset.

Alla:
> Maybe Snape hoped that he would put Lily under Imperio and she would become his slave or something?

Montavilla47:
That's not what he asked for.  If he wanted that, he could
certainly have asked for it, and I'm sure Voldemort would 
have been happy to oblige.

You can speculate all you like on Snape having selfish, 
perverted hopes for a post-James Lily, but, IMO, the 
canon indicates that all Snape wanted was for Lily to be 
alive.  

Dumbledore comforts Snape with the idea that Lily is 
still alive (at least a little) in Harry.  He does not comfort
Snape by pointing out that, had Lily lived, she still would
have hated Snape and loved James.


Alla:
> As another aside, the fact that Voldemort was even willing to consider Snape's request tells me more about his implied crimes as Death Eater than anything else. I mean, how valuable Snape has to be to Voldemort at twenty something if he would truly agree to not kill somebody for him.

Montavilla47:
Very valuable.  He had brought Voldemort information
about a huge threat.  

Alla:
> And this is actually one of the reasons that I cannot buy your speculation that their agreement actually contributed to the spell itself.
> 
> I just feel that this magic is something that is incredibly *good* in nature and Snape's agreement with Voldemort is something too selfish and evil to contribute to the spell of that power.
> 
> But of course I cannot argue against it, I am just explaining why it does not work for me.
> 

Montavilla47:
You definitely aren't obligated to buy that part.  I think that 
providing the choice is enough of a contribution to the unique
circumstances in which Harry survived.  

And, I don't really buy Pippin's idea that Lily's *belief* in love
was what triggered the magic.  We don't have to agree on the 
exact thing that made it happen.

But I do think that the idea that magic is either good or bad
is an odd one.  I think of magic as being "natural" and 
unpredictable, the way that wild animals are unpredictable and
only somewhat controllable.