What triggered ancient magic? WAS: Re: James and Intent

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 187037

Potioncat:
Here's where we differ. And we will probably continue to differ because it's
speculation (unless someone can find canon.) 

Alla:

Of course we are speculating and just trying to find some canon to make inferences.

Potioncat:
There is a difference between
wanting a person and loving a person. 

Alla:

Sure I agree with that, however, I would say that even though it is completely possible to want a person without loving such person, to me if we are talking about romantic love, if one loves a person, one generally wants her or him as well. It had been my experience anyway.

.

Potioncat:
If courtly love is the model, then Snape
wasn't hoping to get Lily for himself, but simply to save her life. I don't
think he expected Lily to become his, nor was that his goal. JMO.

Alla:
But that is sort of my point, because to me if courtly love is the model, then Snape would be thinking about how to make lady happy and do whatever she wants, you know?

Knights were perfectly happy (in literature of course) to gaze at the lady from a far, to carry her sign to the tournaments to do the good deeds in her name, etc, etc. They were not wanting to get rid of the lady's family (at least in the stories that I read) and of course unless they were courting the lady to get married.

That's the reason why I am not sure if it is a courtly love or a parody of it, because while Snape certainly does good deeds in the name of Lily, before he is doing it, he does not give a fig (IMO) if her family will be dead or not and to me it is more than speculation that Lily would not want to live when her husband and baby will be dead.




Montavilla47:
We don't know what was in Snape's head. But Harry tells
Voldemort (who certainly thought Snape wanted to get into
Lily's bed) that Snape didn't save her in order to have a
romantic or carnal relationship with her. He says quite clearly
that Snape saved her because she was his "friend."

I don't think that we have to believe Harry here. But I don't
think it's inconceivable given that after Lily refused Snape's
apology, he stopped pursuing her. That argues that he did
respect her decision in dumping him.

Alla:

Well, actually before I decide whether or not I believe Harry here, could you please point me to canon where he says quite clearly that Snape saved her because she was his "friend".

Because if we are talking about final confrontation scene, as Pippin says Harry tells Voldemort that Snape loved her since childhood which as far as I am concerned really does not hurt my argument, because as I said above IMO loving a person, if we are talking about romantic love of course pretty much always includes wanting a person, although opposite is not always true.  I cannot find where is  Harry saying that Snape saved her because she was his friend?

Here is what I could find though and I can see that Pippin already quoted paragraph before the ones that I will be quoting:

"Snape's Patronus was a Doe," said Harry, "the same as my mother's because he loved her for nearly all of his life, from the time they were children. You should have realized," he said, as he saw Voldemort's nostrils flare, "he asked you to spare her life, didn't he?"
"He desired her, that's all," sneered Voldemort, "but when she had gone, he agreed  that there were other women, and of purer blood, worthier of him-"
"Of course he had told you that," said Harry, "but he was  Dumbledore's spy from the moment you threatened her, and he's been working against you ever since! Dumbledore was already dying when Snape finished him!" – p. 593, brit.ed.

Alla:

So, do I believe Harry here? Sure I do. I just differ with him in what ways I think Snape loved Lily since they were children. I would say that his love was not noble enough at the point he was asking for her life.  Here is what I get from this dialogue. I am sure Harry is making some sort of rebuttal to Voldemort's claim that Snape only desired her, although I really am unclear how strong of the rebuttal "Of course he had told you that and he was Dumbledore's" is supposed to be. I am interpreting that the rebuttal is that Snape loved her, not  *just* desired her, but again I just do not see how that contradicts the idea that Snape wanted her for himself in more ways than one, not just sexual one.

Montavilla47:
And again, Snape was never in any position to save Harry,
since the whole reason for Voldemort to target the Potters
in the first place is the kid who is going to grow up and kill
him. <SNIP>

 Alla:

It is irrelevant for the point that I am making whether Snape was in any position to save Harry. I am saying that if he truly loved Lily at that point of his life,  he would have considered what Lily wanted and yes, tried, regardless if he knew one hundred percent that he is going to fail. After all what kind of knight would put lady, her husband and child in danger in the first place and then say, oh heck I will save you, but your family can burn for all I care. Something tells me that he would not see this lady giving him any handkerchiefs ( or headscarf, or whatever it was) to wear during the tournaments anymore.

Alla:
> Maybe Snape hoped that he would put Lily under Imperio and she would become
his slave or something?

Montavilla47:
That's not what he asked for. If he wanted that, he could
certainly have asked for it, and I'm sure Voldemort would
have been happy to oblige.

Alla:

I did not mean that Voldemort would put Lily under Imperio, I meant that Snape himself would do it next time he comes to visit or something like that. It is pure speculation of course.

Montavilla47:
You can speculate all you like on Snape having selfish,
perverted hopes for a post-James Lily, but, IMO, the
canon indicates that all Snape wanted was for Lily to be
alive.

Alla:

Snape putting Lily under Imperio is of course pure speculation, what is not speculation however is that Snape only asked for her life, nobody else's. That tells me that it was not about what Lily wanted and of course I am speculating further based on that. Canon does not tell us either way that the only thing that Snape wanted for Lily was to be alive IMO, that is why the fact that he did not ask for her family to be spared to me seems a reasonable basis for speculation that Snape did not only wanted Lily to be alive, but wanted her as part of loving her.

Because we are told that he never stopped loving her by Harry, so to me that may mean that he never stopped wanting her either. 


Montavilla47:
Dumbledore comforts Snape with the idea that Lily is
still alive (at least a little) in Harry. He does not comfort
Snape by pointing out that, had Lily lived, she still would
have hated Snape and loved James. <SNIP>

Alla:

I frankly did not notice that Dumbledore was comforting Snape at all that night IMO. And how the idea that had she lived she still would have hated Snape is a comfort at all?

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
But I do think that the idea that magic is either good or bad
is an odd one. I think of magic as being "natural" and
unpredictable, the way that wild animals are unpredictable and
only somewhat controllable.

Alla:

Well, according to different writers magic can be different, it can be good, it could be bad, it could be as you said wild and unpredictable and IMO JKR left us a wild field to speculate on that. I do not believe that all magic in Potterverse is either good or bad, but IMO the ancient magic is good because of it being based on love and I actually think it can be unpredictable too.




Pippin:
Toerag!James is the only James Snape ever knew. Even Harry couldn't understand
how Lily could have fallen for him and wondered once or twice if she had been
forced to marry him. A parent rejecting the child of an unloved parent isn't
outside Snape's experience either. Why wouldn't Snape think that Lily would long
to be free of James and the child she'd been forced to give him? Perhaps he
couldn't really think that Lily loved Harry until she died to save him.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Exactly! It is all about Snape, what he knows, what he experienced, what he wants in my opinion. If he truly loved Lily, I think he would have done his best to look at situation from her POV and maybe he would have seen that she married a husband whom she loved and had a child that she adored.

And maybe he would have grasped that Lily would much rather be dead than alive without her husband and child in my opinion.

Pippin:
Anyway, if the silver doe doesn't convince you that Snape's feelings for Lily
were honorable, I'm not sure what would. <SNIP>

Alla:

Oh I am sure that the more time passed since Lily's death the more honorable and more resembling the knight's love his love became. But that is loving the idea of Lily and doing a good deeds in her name. Am I sure that Snape would have loved alive Lily same way had she came back for some magical reason for example? No, I am not.

And when he is confronted with not even alive Lily, but with the piece of her handwriting, what does he do? Steals it from the house that belongs to her child. Yeah, I think it was obsessive all right.

So again, I cannot make up my mind, I certainly see parts of courtly love in his story, but I also see pretty ugly parts IMO.

As to Patronus, yep, for the longest time I thought that Patronus Magic is pretty much good, Guardian protector and all that to me gives good thoughts. Silver Doe was beautiful and I think it reflects Snape loving idea of Lily and doing good noble things in her name.

However, Umbridge has patronus too, so I do not think that Patronus in itself to me proves something about character anymore.