James and Intent And Snape and Love LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 187041

> zanooda:
<SNIP>
> The victim of a bully feels him\herself singled out, specifically targeted all the time. If James and Snape just met in a hallway and exchanged a hex or two, neither of them is a bully in this case. I want to emphasize that this is only my personal opinion, nothing else :-). That's how I understand bullying :-).

Alla:

And that is exactly what I was hoping you would say. Not in a "gotcha" sense, but because that is how I feel too, but precisely for that reason I disagree that we can label James as bully in anywhere but SWM. Because to me hexing in the hallways seems like an activity for many young wizards and I am sure plenty including Snape gave James back as good as they could.


> zanooda:
> 
> LOL! I didn't want to say we shouldn't discuss Snape :-). I wanted to say that for me it makes no difference what Snape did to "deserve", in some readers' opinion, what he got in SWM. Even if Snape ever did the same thing to James, it doesn't make James's behavior in SWM more admirable (to me, of course :-)). Do you see what I mean? I'm not sure I explained it well :-). 
> 
> Talking about Snape being a bully is trying to find an excuse for James, and I don't see it as an excuse, that's all I wanted to say. I don't mind switching to Snape (Carol will be happy :-)). Besides, we already changed topic, because it started as a discussion about JKR's writing and now it is a discussion about James :-).


Alla:

Well, I just found it to be a little bit hard to understand argument since threads switch in midair and as you note  the change in topics can be abrupt. I mean if we started to discuss Ron and Hermione and not that we are not entitled to switch to whatever new topic we like, but I would understand your surprise better, you know?

To me talking about Snape in this scene makes a difference in a sense of what SWM is, is it a sign of the ongoing war between Marauders and Snape OR is it just an accident of ugly bullying, whether isolated or not.

It may make no difference to you for example that in HBP we learned that James is using Snape's own hex on him to turn him upside down. It however makes a *huge* difference to me, not for evaluation of this scene of course,  but for the evaluation of their whole relationship. To me author hints quite loudly here, that while it is a bullying, Snape also did stuff before which came back to bite him in the *ss.

I think that he used all of the curses he invented and not all people he used them on deserved them for example. Otherwise how indeed Marauders and half the of the school learned it? It may sound as excuse for you, but for me it is truly what I see in canon. IMO SWM of course does not show Snape as an agressor, quite the contrary, he is a victim here, but all the little things to me say that while he is a victim here, that's not permanent at all,

And of course I do think that it is perfectly reasonable to interpet the scene that Snape was moving closer to James and Sirius. We are not Looking with his eyes, we do not know if he saw them or not.

Do I think he was looking for a fight? Nope, not at all. I however think that it is very plausible that he was looking to eavesdrop on them, since we know that Snape always made Marauders' business his own and here he moves closer to them.

Do you see what I mean?

I do have problems figuring out how this particular scene can be intepreted as anything else than bullying, I however have no problems whatsoever thinking  that their relationship was NOT James and Sirius bullying poor Snape all the time and not ever vice versa and this scene to me holds some hints of that.

Pippin:
Oh dear, oh dear. "If you really loved me, you'd understand what I need" ???? --
Sorry, love does not work like that and not only in real life. I can think of a
lot of people in canon who love and honestly have no idea what the person they
love needs, or what would make that person truly happy, starting with the
Dursleys and Dudley.

Alla:

 Pippin, and I mean it very respectfully,  I do not think that you (or anybody here) are in the position to  tell me that my experiences did not happen. Maybe "if you truly love me you'd understand what I need" was not been your experience, but it certainly had been mine. 
I am not saying that it works out that way in every little thing, but in the big things that truly matter, yeah, it had been my experience more than once  that people who love me, do know what I need and gasp, even put my needs before their own if the need arises. And I had done the same thing.

Obviously I had experienced the opposite thing too, BUT even then it had not been my experience that person who loved me or claimed to loved me did not understand what I need. Oh no person understood very acutely, just was not doing anything about it. 


But of course I can think of a lot of people in canon who do not know what other person needs AND I can think of a lot of people in canon who do know what other person needs.


People (including me) had been saying how badly Molly treats Arthur for example,  I winced more than once when Molly was lecturing him in front of their children, but it looks like Molly's attitude is exactly what Arthur needs to be happy IMO.

Same thing with Ron and Hermione, I would never be able to deal with the person with whom I am arguing constantly, but it looks like that is exactly what these two need from each other.

Are you thinking about Lupin not understanding what Tonks needed? If yes, then sorry, I have really big doubts about him truly loving her.

He always seemed to know what Sirius needed though when they are adults ;)

I am sure there are examples for both ways in canon of course, I am however too sleepy to think of more right now.

But we were talking about whether Snape's love for Lily counts as courtly love, or at least that is what I was discussing lol and to me to count as such, as idealised love, it is doubly necessary to show that Snape understands the needs of the object of his desire, if that makes sense.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
As to courtly love, of course Snape wanted Lily. But that in itself does not
make his love impure or unclean, not in the Potterverse, IMO. Rowling has said
that one of the things that she did not like about the Narnia books was the way
that Susan was put down for wanting romantic love. No where in the books is
physical desire shown to be unworthy, except when it is forced on someone. <SNIP>

Alla:

Of course this alone does not make his love unpure and unclean, but IF (not I say if because I am speculating) he wanted Lily at the expense of her husband and child being dead, yes, to me it does make his love well, less than admirable.

And  if you mean Merope, I do hope that JKR wanted to show her conduct as unworthy even if an object of pity, because to me she raped Tom Riddle and I cannot say that it is anything less than that.



JMO,

Alla