James and Intent And Snape and Love and Lily's letter

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 187056

Alla:
> > 
> > Okay, fair enough you think that by hexing each other in the hallway James and Snape were mutual bullies to each other?
> 
> Ceridwen:
> No, I think they mutually hexed each other in the hallways.

Alla:

Me too! :)

Ceridwen:
When it got down to zeroing in on Snape and hexing him "because he exists," then it turns into bullying.  

Alla:

Totally, we are shown this in SWM, my point is that we are not shown this anywhere else with certainty at least and we are given hints that it was a war, this time Snape was the victim.

Ceridwen:
After DHs, I got the impression that James really disliked Snape from the first train ride and had it out for him.

Alla:

And I got the impression that Snape disliked them just as much in that scene and had it out for them just as much. I mean, how dare Sirius reject that lovely house that Snape so wants to get into. And I also suspect (although I cannot prove it at all) that he felt threat in James right away. Yeah, I know they are just eleven years old, still have this feeling that he was threatened that James could take his friend away from him.

> Ceridwen:
> I think this is one area where we can speculate to our hearts' content.  *g*  We're not shown that Snape culled these cards, but we're not shown that he didn't.  Debate may last forever. ;)

Alla:

Sure :)

> Ceridwen:
> I'm not talking about random hexing in the hallways there.  Most of the students seem to do it at one point or another, even in Harry's time.  Sure, breaking the rules - this was one of the first rules of Hogwarts that we learned, wasn't it?  But not bullying or intimidating.

Alla:

I am though, because somebody upthread (Montavilla? Or maybe somebody else, not sure) brought this up as evidence of bullying, James randomly hexing people that is, and to me it is just not, at least not with the information we have.

Ceridwen: 
> I'm certainly *not* against self-defense.  That's counter-productive.  I'm talking again about the way James and Sirius seemed to target Snape when he wasn't bothering them.  The only canon explanation we have is that they did it "because he exists" which is not a good reason, in my opinion.  That's what put it over the top to bullying.  They saw him, they targeted him, they ganged up on him two to one, and the prefect in their group studiously ignored what they were doing.

Alla:

Yes they certainly did in SWM, I completely agree. But when SWM is being turned into them continuously bullying Snape for five years (I know you did not say it, I am reacting to the thread), I am saying no, sorry, I disagree, at the very least we do not have enough evidence and we have some hints (IMO) that Snape was a very active participant (and not just in self defense) of this little war they had.


Ceridwen: 
<SNIP>
I can see it from about two directions here - that James & Co. did this to anyone they disliked in order to intimidate them, or that they specifically targeted Snape and only Snape.  Either way it's bullying, in my opinion, and that makes the Marauders bullies to me.

Alla:

I see a third direction, which is just as speculative as ever, they targeted Snape and Snape did all he could to make their life hell as well, probably with the help of Lucius Malfoy.


Ceridwen:
> My aside was that we can happily speculate about the hexings in the hallways, who did what, whether this person was unlucky enough to get caught every time or only sometimes got caught, if it was a one-on-one vendetta or if they did it to everyone equally, if it was just school kid high spirits or something else, etc.  I don't think that, given what we do have in canon, we'll ever come to a consensus.

Alla:

Yeah, speculations are fun!

Pippin:
I know you are not asking me, but the fact that Snape agrees so quickly to
saving them all is proof to me that this is more than an obsession. It is like
the judgment of Solomon in reverse. Snape is not willing to let Lily be killed
if he cannot have her.

Alla:

I am not saying that it is only obsession, I am saying that it has obsessive undertones to me.

Pippin:
It's not like there was something of Lily's that he could ask for. Snape did not
go and take something from the house at Godric's Hollow, as he could have done. 
He found the letter while he was searching GP and took it on impulse. Of course
it was not his, but it is not like it was one of Harry's prized possessions. 
Harry did not even know it existed.

Alla:

So he does not get to have something of Lily, if there is nothing he could ask for. Letter was Harry's possession as everything that was on the property and I think it is a pretty good guess based on how Harry reacted when he read it that it IS about to become his very *prized* possession. Dumbledore does not hesitate to agree with Harry that Mundungus was wrong when he was selling the goblets, I do not see how the essence of what Snape did is any different, only to me it is creepier, since Snape to me attempts to steal something that has sentimental value and attempts to fool himself into pretending that when Lily wrote with love, she wrote it to him. I am speculating, but I do not see why he would take only this part of the letter and not the whole letter, if he would not want to read and reread and pretend that it was written to him.
And Mundungus just steals to make profit, which to me is equally disgusting, but at least Mundungus does not claim that Sirius loved him or something.


JMO,

Alla