Snape's test

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 186406

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol earlier:
> <snip> So, for my own satisfaction and with no intent to persuade her or anyone else on the list, I want to explain why I consider Snape's plan a "test."
> 
> Carol again:
> Sorry about my wording here. It sounds as if I don't want responses! Actually, I'm quite curious as to what other people think (assume that they're not tired of the topic). <snip>
> 
> > Whether Harry would have passed this test--and surely it *is* a test of his worthiness as a "true Gryffindor" or Harry would not have gone over the qualities of a Gryffindor in his head--is unclear because he doesn't get the chance. The Horcrux, sensing the presence of the sword, tries to kill him.
> > 
> > What *is* clear, at least to me, is that Ron *does* pass the test. Not only does he dive in, as Harry did, he saves Harry's life, demonstrating not only "daring" and "nerve" but "valor" and "chivalry" and a greater "need" than Harry's. And, of course, he successfully retrieves the sword. <snip>
>  
> > To return to Snape. Dumbledore has told him that "the Sword must be taken under conditions of need and valor." He cannot, of course, simply hand it to Harry since he can't be seen, but he can't just leave it on the ground, either. (Harry himself recognizes that it can't be that easy; he has to earn the sword.) So Snape must make a plan that involves taking the sword under "conditions of need and valor." He must, that is, make retrieving the sword as difficult and dangerous as possible so that Harry must demonstrate "valor" in order to retrieve it.
> > 
> > Snape, who knows quite well what the qualities of a Gryffindor are surely understands that he's setting up a test of Harry's worthiness as a "true Gryffindor." But whether he know so or not, that's exactly what his plan entails. (Harry knows it, as his thoughts reveal.) And the test, through no intention of Snape's, becomes even more difficult when the Horcrux starts to choke Harry. He can no longer pass the test himself, but Ron can and does. <snip>
> 
> Carol again:
> I need to make clear that I'm not using "test" in the sense of an exam that Snape will grade to determine whether Harry passes or not. I'm using "test" in relation to what's known in literary criticism as the "test motif"--most if not all heroes in the heroic epic and similar genres must pass a test of worth or valor, whether it's Sir Gawain rejecting temptation by the Green Knight's beautiful wife or the boy Arthur pulling the sword from the stone, proving that he's the rightful king (though he doesn't know it). Galadriel uses the word "test" in this sense when she says after rejecting the temptation to wield the One Ring, "I pass the test. I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."
> 
> Harry, of course, passes some sort of test (in this sense) in every book, whether it's looking into the Mirror of Erised and seeing the Philosopher's Stone but not wanting it for himself or being possessed by Voldemort and driving him out through love. Knowing that he must face Voldemort unarmed rather than fighting him is another test which Harry, of course, passes with flying colors.
> 
> With regard to "Snape's test," by which I mean his placing the sword in the icy pool so that Harry can retrieve it "under conditions of need and valor," it doesn't matter whether Snape is consciously setting up a test of Harry's worthiness to wield the Sword of Gryffindor. It's the sword itself that judges the Gryffindor's worthiness. (Interestingly, we don't know what would happen if someone other than a "worthy Gryffindor" attempted to wield it. Would the sword just vanish?) What matters, in terms of the motif, is that Harry's valor be tested by the conditions that Snape sets up regardless of whether Snape is consciously setting up a test or merely following Dumbledore's instructions. 
> 
> Again, the test motif is a literary convention common in heroic literature and, like the Christ figure and Everyman interpretations we've been discussing in other threads, a valid way of looking at a literary work, heroic epic being one of several genres that JKR is working in (the same one that requires the death of the old mentor).
> 
> Carol, with apologies for sounding like the English teacher she used to be
>
Montavilla47:

I guess for the book's purposes, it doesn't matter whether the test is 
set up or not, but somehow it feels wrong.  I'm not sure why that
is.  It's not like there weren't lots of people who set up tests for 
King Arthur or the Knights to pass.  But it seems like, in order for
a magical object to do its magic, the "need and valor" shouldn't be
artificial.  

I mean, Harry already needs the dang sword.  He's got a Horcrux he
needs to destroy.  And, in terms of valor, if trying to kill the most
powerful evil wizard in the world isn't enough, why should jumping
into an icy pond qualify?  

I'm not knocking Snape here.  But, somehow I do think that Ron 
does pass a genuine test, while Harry's task is more like doing a
school assignment.

Maybe it's because it seems like Ron's jumping in save Harry is 
the only action he could have taken to save Harry, while Harry's
jumping into the pond was more foolhardy than heroic?  I'm not 
really sure.  But, when Portrait!Dumbledore was telling Snape
to go set up a test, it seemed like something that shouldn't 
possibly work.

This is, of course, a world where the Headmaster sets up 
a magical obstacle course for eleven-year-old children.  But 
in that situation, Dumbledore wasn't counting on a magical
force to kick in just because the kids got through it.