Secrets (Long) OLD POST REPOST

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 186445

Montavilla47:

I didn't say that Harry was showing a grudge against James.
I'm showing an example of Harry throwing James into Snape's
face in PoA, even though it would be absurd for Harry to be
holding a grudge against his dead father.

I'm doing that to support my contention that using A in an
argument against B does not necessarily mean that you're
holding a grudge against A. It can mean any number of
things, including that it's an effective bit of ammunition.

Alla:

Ah, sorry misunderstood you. However Harry does not talk about his father in a bad light, that is why I would not think that he indeed holds grudge against him, Snape however says bad things about him and that to me makes an obvious example of holding grudges.

Alla:
>
> You are right, Snape has a lot of reasons to be angry in this scene, however
the reasons he **says** that he is angry about are :
> a) Harry is using his spells against him;
> b) His filfy father was using his spells against him.

Montavilla47:

Well, it's not like Snape can stop and explain to Harry
that what he's really upset about at the moment is the
fact that he was forced to kill the one person who didn't
consider him scum.

Alla:

Indeed, however it is not like if he does not say one of the reasons why he is upset, then another reason must be not true in my opinion. To me it is again, omission of the part of the truth.

Alla:
> There are no other reasons that Snape gives us that he is angry about. So I
guess I am asking why you would substitute the reasons that he gives for other
reasons .

> I mean, sure Snape has no NEED to feel a rage against James, but he says that
he does and well, it is good enough for me.

Montavilla47:
Well, for one thing, they would give away that big "Snape isn't
evil" twist that JKR is setting up for DH. In other words, this is
deliberate misdirection on the part of the author--with the
hint about Snape looking like he's in pain while he's shouting
it. That's clues us in that what Snape is really upset about isn't
Harry's feeble attempts to duel him.

Alla:

Or again, it could be that **part** of Snape's true motivations is concealed and another true part is seen. To be misdirection, something does not have to be a lie, it can just cover something else which we do not know yet, IMO.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
I think it's a bit too hard to argue Snape as a noble character--
in the sense of being forgiving or magnanimous. I don't see him
as being forgiving at all--least of all to himself. But if you don't
re-examine his character in light of the Prince's Tale, then you're
holding onto a false interpretation of his character. The whole
point of the Prince's Tale is to change our view of Snape.

Alla:

To me Prince's tale gave new information about Snape, it did not change his character completely at all.

So, if by false interpretation you mean that  I see Snape as a  man who hated James and his friends and by extension hated his son and who also loved Lily and wanted to atone for his guilt in her death, then absolutely I **am** holding to this interpretation. The only thing that changed for me after DH is that Snape was indeed working for Dumbledore and that he loved Lily.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
There's no point where Snape says, "I do not hate James." And there's
no point where he says that he does. But when Dumbledore scolds
Snape for not trying to save James or Harry from Voldemort, Snape's
reaction is indifference. Not anything about how he'd be happy
if James died, or how James deserves it, or even how he much he
feels in James's debt about that saving his life thing. James is
*nothing* to him at that point.

Alla:

To me him asking Dumbledore to provide safety for Lily and not for her husband and baby even though Snape was the one who set Voldemort on them was proof enough that he hated them, IMO of course. I mean, he wants Dumbledore to save Lily but says nothing about James, I make a conclusion that he wants James to die, IMO of course.

Montavilla47:
Moreover, Snape denies in PoA that James was doing anything
but saving his own skin during the Prank. He obviously feels
no debt at all to James about it. Which makes what Dumbledore
told Harry a lie.

Alla:

I do not see how one follows from another. Snape says that, yes, but where does he say that I feel no debt to James?

Montavilla47:
Not to say that Snape wouldn't have had a romantic
relationship with Lily if she would have been willing--but
it seems really clear to me that Snape knows that *he* blew it with Lily. It wasn't that James won her--it was
that Snape lost her.

Alla:

I do not have book with me right now, but Snape seemed awfully upset to me when Lily mentions James and Marauders and that she spents time with them. But I have to double check.
He knows that he lost her friendship, for sure. But I got from Prince memory that Snape saw that Lily was moving to Marauders way before their break up happened, IMO of course.

Alla:
<SNIP>
> I think that if you take Snape's ability to hold grudges from him, I really do
not think he will be same character, but again my opinion.
>

Montavilla47:
Well, a lot of the people in the books hold grudges.
<SNIP>
So, I don't think Snape's ability to hold grudges
is that unique. If it were the defining trait for his
character then we'd be hard pressed to pull him
out of a crowd.

Alla:

Absolutely, a lot of people do, I agree. I just find Snape's ability to do that to be how to put, very distinctive and strong? And long?