afterlife/ Wormtail, Wormtail, Wormtail / That Crucio

Sat May 9 20:07:25 UTC 2009

No: HPFGUIDX 186519

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/186427>:

<< And if Lupin can be happy in the afterlife, free of the ravages of his lycanthropy, I see no reason why Snape can't be happy, too, freed of regret and resentment and bitterness. I'd like to think that he and the three "good" Marauders at last understand and respect each other. >>

This is a forbidden "I agree" post. Since Severus is set on being with Lily in the afterlife, and Lily is set on being with James in the afterlife, and James is set on being with Sirius in the afterlife, and Remus is set on being with Sirius in the afterlife (or, more canonically, with James, but this makes a better chain), they had BETTER all learn to like each other, or it will be a very quarrelsome afterlife. Maybe they'll reincarnate as squabbling siblings.

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/186428>:

<< Clearly, the right choice in that instance was to hold out against threats and torture and keep the secret with which he had been entrusted. >>

Since Sirius's testimony that Peter had left his hiding place with no signs of violence or being kidnapped by Death Eaters, it has not been clear to me that Peter simply yielded to threats and torture. He may have yielded to being offered a big bribe (bigger than 'I won't kill you') instead. SWM indicates that Peter was already of bad character as a schoolboy, not merely weak.

Even tho' I think weak makes a better backstory, in which he could have been tricked (like young Bagman) into treason rather than choosing it. In my fanfic, tricked by being seduced by a beautiful girl rather than by being told he was serving the anti-Voldemort side. And so unwilling to admit he had been follish and beg for forgiveness from the friends he had betrayed that he decided to avoid it by helping kill them. 

<< Just how returning to Voldemort, talking to rats and other small animals to track down the monster that's possessing and killing them, qualifies as an easy choice, I'm not sure. Surely, living in the sewers would be easier--and less dangerous. >> 

More "I agree". I really can't understand why Wormtail sought out and revived Voldemort. He must have known it would be laborious, unpleasant, and dangerous, and I can't see how he benefitted from it more than from finding a new sucker to keep him in idle luxury as a pet rat -- a sucker in a foreign country if he's really so scared that Remus and Sirius will find him and kill him.

Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/186432>:

<< Ironically the belief that such a spell did exist may have been what convinced Voldemort that the Elder Wand had failed him. >>

Insightful!

<< Peter knows that once the Ministry knows he is still alive, the DE's still at large will find out too. He will have no protector, and Peter can't face life without a protector, even one that he loathes as much as Voldemort. >>

I am not convinced that Peter thinks the DEs still at large are after him. Would they even know he existed? Okay, Sirius said he heard DEs in Azkaban screaming at traitor Wormtail, but that was only Bellatrix, who had more information that the rest of them, and would not have shared it before being incarcerated, so the ones on the outside don't know. Anyway, they wouldn't seek him in a foreign country any more than Sirius and Remus would.

Montavilla wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/186441>:

<< Which is exactly the kind of double-think that's common in action-adventure films. When the villain kills people, it's evil, it's murder, and he'll eventually go to hell. When the hero kills the villain (and dozen henchmen before that), it's simply justice. If JKR is trying to subvert the genre, then she needs to do a better job of letting us know that. Otherwise, we'll just assume she's following it. >>

And Pippin replied to Montavilla in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/186446>:

<< She's told us that she's not following it, and doesn't particularly care for it. The work bears that out, IMO. I don't think she's subverting the genre. She's re-inventing it to serve her purposes, one of which is to show us that the genre, the consensus fantasy universe, is just wrong about some things. >>

Is the genre that needs subverting Fantasy (as in the Rowling quote), or is it Action-Adventure?

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/186462>:

<< "Crucio" *means* "I torture" and "Cruciatus" is a real Latin word meaning "torture" or "torment." The successful caster *must* want his victim to suffer unendurable agony, as Bellatrix knows well and as the name itself should be sufficient to inform us. (Even if we don't know Latin, we should see the etymological connection with "excruciating.") >>

How are these words connected with 'crux' meaning 'cross'? Are all the words meaning torture (except 'torture' itself, which comes from 'twist') derived from cruxification? Was the cross named 'instrument of torture' and then the + T X shape was named after the instrument of torture?

jkoney wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/186466>:

<< Now looking at it after the fact as an uninvolved spectator people can say that if he was really good he would have stunned him and forgiven him for his actions. That would have been a plastic hero. Someone everyone would have complained about for being too perfect. >>

And Magpie replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/186471>:

<< You think a hero is plastic or unbelievable and "too perfect" because he doesn't react to somebody spitting at his teacher by using the torture curse? I don't believe for one second that anybody would have read a scene where Harry used one of the dozens of spells more about disabling or knocking Carrow out and said it was the least bit unbelievable, or that it made Harry too perfect. >>

No one is asking Harry to have forgiven Amycus -- now, THAT would have started a debate about whether he was being a saint or was abetting a crime by condoning the criminal!

Some people, even McGonagall, are asking Harry to restrain Amycus with a more effective spell (personally, I like Petrifics Totalus) while preserving his anger and even hatred against Amycus.