Sadism or not ? McGonagall and her punishments

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 186630

> > a_svirn:
> > I find it hard to believe that she didn't enjoy picking on students, even if she didn't smirk. I mean, why do it in the first place, if you don't like it?  <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Huh? I certainly do not characterize McGonagall's behavior as picking on students "all the time". As to why do it if you do not like it? Maybe because if you are a teacher, it is your job to discipline your students, whether you like it or not.
<snip> 

> a_svirn:
> Here is a pretty girl exited and full of anticipation waiting for international delegations to arrive. And McGonagall snaps at her so that everyone would hear 'Miss Patil, take that ridiculous thing out of your hair.' I am not saying it's super cruel, but this is exactly the sort of pettiness we are invited to dislike in Snape. Certainly, she didn't *have* to do it. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Same sort of pettiness? Not in my opinion at all. I mean, I certainly agree that it was wrong of her to do so, to comment on teen's girl appearance. However, however in my time when I went to school we were all have to wear uniforms ( you know - brown dress, etc). If we were expecting important guests in school and my school principal would have thought that I put something on me which makes me look wierd, I would not be surprised at all if she would snap at me. Again, it was wrong of her, she is a woman and should know better, but really, I can totally see how she just wanted her students to look nice in front of international guests. Again, it was a celebration, they were not supposed to wear regular robes, I know, but I still think that this was her motivation.

a_svirn:
OK, I can accept that. But the same is true for Snape as well. He shouldn't have been so rude and generally horrible to Neville, it was totally wrong of him, but his motivation was to make Neville to learn to think for himself without always relying on Hermione. What's wrong with that kind of motivation? Additionally, he must have been justifiably incensed that Neville had brought his pet to the Potions class.  Imagine McGonagall reaction if Harry had brought his owl to one of her classes. She would have probably ordered him to practice vanishing spells on it. 

> 
> a_svirn:
> Snape used Neville squeamishness to bully him with horned frogs? McGonagall did the same with Lavender and mice. And Lavender had lived though the trauma of loosing a pet bunny. (Ok, a bunny is not quite the same as a mouse, but still probably close enough to make an impressionable person uncomfortable. And Ron used to have a pet rat, which *is* pretty close.) And while Snape threw "idiot boy" at Neville, she called Lavender silly girl for being squeamish. I suppose `idiot' is somewhat worse than `silly', but that's a kind of difference without much distinction, really. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Could you please remind me where it happened? I would like to reread it please  if you do not mind and could you please remind me if she knew that Lavender lost her bunny? Thanks.

a_svirn:
It's in OOtP, Chapter 15 at the start of the class with Umbridge inspecting it. And the entire Gryffindor House knew about that bunny.
 
> 
> a_svirn:
> Does she *have* to make Neville suffer for something that is so obviously out of his control – bad memory? Quite the contrary – she has to absolutely make sure that certain adjustments are made to make things easier for him. Instead, she goes out of her way to make life difficult for him and misses no opportunity to draw everyone's attention to his condition.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Goes out of her way? You mean that one punishment? I agree that she did not have to do that, but she did it once. I mean, he had to do it for what? A month? I agree it was bad, but again, I think going out of her way to make his life miserable is a bit of stretching. My opinion of course.

a_svirn:
Yeah, that one punishment that lasted for nearly half the term. And which he didn't really deserve in the first place, since she was the one at fault. How about that time when she pointed out – with a theatrical sigh and before the entire class – that his grandmother had sent her the permission form because she didn't trust Neville's memory? She didn't *have* to it this way, did she? But why miss a good opportunity to embarrass a student? 

> 
> > a_svirn:
> > No? But what was the point of this punishment in your opinion? 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Um, what was the point of Harry"s detention with Snape? What was the point of whipping the students in the past? What was the point of Ron's detentions?

a_svirn:
Actually, detentions with Snape and Filch usually had certain pragmatic objectives – beyond the obvious I mean. Horned toads presumably needed to be sliced, bedpans to be cleaned, etc. It is deeply unpleasant, but a) not humiliating or cruel (in itself, I mean, Neville is a bit of a special case) and b) useful. As for that Forest outing, in term of usefulness it was pointless, and the only purpose it could possible serve was to scare them witless. Which edges quite a bit towards "humiliating" and "cruel" (again in itself).  

> a_svirn:
> You'll agree, I am sure, that it was quite extraordinary thing for her to do. Someone/-thing in the Forest was killing Unicorns – a kind of wizarding analogue of ritual killing of virgins or Christian babies – obviously that someone was not just evil and dangerous, but exceptionally so. And what does the deputy Headmistress do when this superevil lurking in the Forest? <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Funny though, the first time we hear about this evil being doing stuff, which I agree is extremely dangerous is not from McGonagall but from Hagrid. She considered what they did to be extremely dangerous, I think she wanted them to do some work in the forest which is dangerous, but with adult. I do not remember that she actually knew that somebody was killing Unicorns there.
> 
> You would tell me but she is a deputy headmistress, how could she not know and I would say that I would not find it surprising at all. Through the series we see Dumbledore keeping her out of the loop on plenty important things, plenty of order business, about Sirius' indentity, etc. Hagrid tells things to Dumbledore not to her most of the times, I would not be surprised if he chose not to share.

a_svirn:
Ok, this is really neat, I'll admit. Then again, one of the students was Draco, and surely Snape must have been informed about the punishment, and Snape knew about the whole Unicorn thing (he even knew who the culprit was). So he must have warned her, most probably argued with her, but was obviously overruled. There. She knew. 

> Alla:
> However, if she knew that was horrible of her, no questions about it, if not, I think it is no worse than many other Hogwarts punishments and if she used it because she felt she had to, I am okay with it. As much as I can be okay with Hogwarts' punishments, which is not much.

a_svirn:
And Snape too did feel that he had to discipline students. I am sure Umbridge felt that she absolutely had to do everything she did. You know what's interesting, though? Flitwick apparently didn't have to bully his students for the Greater Good. Nor did Lupin. Nor did Sprout. Even though they too were Hogwarts professors.