Sadism or not ? McGonagall and her punishments

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 186641

Alla:
I do not know how they assign detentions, but I am thinking whatever needs to be
done in school at the moment (unless you are Umbridge or Snape in my view).

a_svirn:
Now that's unfair. All detentions Snape ever assigned were entirely in
accordance with school policy. He only ever assigned unpleasant chores. Under
his own or Filch's supervision. What Umbridge did on the other hand was
completely out of bounds. Though as I said, she totally thought she had "no
choice" but resorting to such extreme measures. She even said words to that
effect on more than one occasion. In the light of which I reiterate my
conviction of its being a bad argument:).

Alla:

I am sorry you feel this way (that this is unfair of me). I however remain convinced that, what was it that you said upthread? That difference between Umbridge and McGonagall is not in their motivations, but in how many lines they are willing to break to achieve their goals?

Well, that is exactly how I feel about Snape and Umbridge. Oh sure, Snape is willing to break less lines to achieve his goals, I am not arguing that. But in their motivations? To me Snape gets off causing some of his students emotional pain and Umbridge physical one. So, sure, Umbridge is the bigger sadist, but to me Snape is one as well, just on the smaller scale.

Snape constantly brings up James several times to Harry, to Harry who is dreaming of having a father, who as we hear even in DH dreams of life he could have had with his parents. And Snape smirks when he does that and he speaks with glee. Yes, to me those are the signs that Snape just may enjoy himself while he is doing so. Knowing that Snape helped James to early grave, really only increases my conviction. Knowing (to my satisfaction of course only) that Snape indeed hated Harry till he died, increases my conviction ten times more. Knowing as you mention that Snape loved Lily increases it hundred times more

There is a reason why I keep pounding on Snape's smirking – this is to me at least some sign that Snape **enjoys** giving out punishments, I am sorry for being repetitive but I do not remember one line in canon that McGonagall **enjoys** humiliating her students.  She is humiliating them several times, yes, but again, even if it is unconvincing for you, to me – she does it because she feels she has no choice in the matter is good enough to not call her a sadist. It is interpretation of course, but you just did not point me to any canon that shows me the possibility of other interpretation and just her actions to me are not enough.

Again, you get no argument from me that sometimes Minerva McGonagall humiliates her students. I am disagreeing that she likes doing it.

As to Snape's detentions, I will never be able to believe that sorting notes about Marauders' wrong doings served anything else but sadistic purpose. You know, to feel pain that you have no father, etc, look at what he did and think about life you could have with him. 

a_svirn:
And the Unicorn hunter wasn't supposed to find them, while they were supposedly
helping wounded Unicorns? Was he supposed to have received an internal memo,
asking him to reschedule his nightly outing for a more conventional time?

Alla:

LOL, true, if four eleven year olds were sent to the forest with killer on the loose, I find it inexcusable.
Montavilla47:
Hmm. I seem to remember that Harry was assigned detention to
help address Lockhart's fan mail responses. I doubt that that was
something that needed to be done for the school.

Alla:

Sure, I will happily add Lockhart's detentions to the list of those that make no sense to me.

Montavilla47:
What I see hear is that you are projecting feeling onto McGonagall. We
don't know what she's feeling. Nor do we know what Snape is smirking
about (although, I'd say we have more clues about his state of mind
after reading through the books than we have about McGonagall.)

Alla:

Well,  I would not use the word projecting, because I do not believe that I am projecting what I am feeling onto her. I would use the word guessing or interpreting. But of course we do not know what McGonagall is thinking! But to me I just do not see in the text the possibility that she may enjoy her students' being humiliated. So to me that leaves the possibility that she is not enjoying it that is all.

Could it be so that she is? Of course, I just do not see it there. Again, I have no problem acknowledging the interpretation I disagree with it, just show me the text please. Or goodness knows I stated something which was my opinion often enough. I totally respect your right to think that Minerva is a sadist even if there is nothing in the text, I will just disagree that this is an interpretation.

And I am  pretty sure that I said upthread that of course I am interpreting what Snape is feeling, I just think as you said that I  have enough clues for that. 

Montavilla 47:
<SNIP>
But, social ostracism (Neville forbidden to know the passwords to
the common room), physical danger (the trips to the Forbidden
Forest), and emotional duress (Harry having to read about his father's
misdeeds or Neville having to disembowel horned toads) is par for
the course.

Alla:

I would agree that they are par for the course as the punishments I do not like, however I would not agree that they are given with the same motivations in mind and if McGonagall did not know about the killing, I would even say that trip matches the wrongdoing, IMO.