Sadism or not ? McGonagall and her punishments

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 186696

> > a_svirn:
> > And Gryffindor colours are red and gold. I can totally see Parvati wearing 
> > an
> > ornamental butterfly in her House colours, which would be considered too 
> > gaudy
> > by St. Hilda's standards. Not that we have any reason to believe that 
> > Hogwats
> > regulations are anywhere near as strict as St: Hilda's: otherwise Luna 
> > would
> > have spent her entire time in Hogwarts in detention. McGonagall in this 
> > scene
> > reprimands Parvati for her taste, which is a personal attack and therefore
> > inappropriate.
> 
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> First of all, just a question - do you have any real life experience of 
> school uniforms? 

a_svirn:
Actually yes, I do. The school I used to attend until I was fourteen was like that. We had to wear uniforms, and yes, hair bands' and bows colour was regulated – brown for everyday wear and white for formal occasions. However, shape and style where up to us, and as for the stuff like hairpins, clips clasps etc. they were definitely not regulated. Not even as far as the colour was concerned. We had teachers like McGonagall or Snape who would scold students publicly for the state of their nails or less than pristine handkerchiefs, but even they would see nothing untoward in butterfly-shaped clips. Which is why I never in my life wore bands and always wore hairpins or hairclips. And I never once got in trouble because of it. 


> a_svirn:
> > Yes, that would be bad form indeed. But we don't know if Neville noticed
> > that his list had gone missing, and McGonagall did not bother to find out.
> >  As for not taking the proper care of it, I'd say that leaving it in the
> > dormitory was actually pretty sensible. He had no reason to suspect his
> > house-mates, did he? And knowing his propensity for loosing things he
> > didn't trust himself enough to carry it on his person.
> 
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> Actually we do know that Neville noticed that his list had gone missing. The 
> text tells us he did - on Thursday evening as Harry returns to the Tower 
> after
> 
> having his Firebolt returned, Neville is pleading with Sir Cadogan to let 
> him in without the password because he has lost his list - he doesn't know 
> where
> 
> it's gone. He doesn't know what he's done with it. It's not until over two 
> days after this that Professor McGonagall finds out that he made the list 
> and lost
> 
> it - so he knew it had happened.

a_svirn:
You are right, my bad. However Neville in this scene doesn't know for sure if he's lost it. He might be hoping to find it in the dormitory. He might still be hoping to find it two days after. 


> a_svirn:
> > You didn't address in your response the other side of the issue, though.
> > How about the fact that McGonagall's own arrangements put Neville in the
> > loose-loose situation, and when he predictably enough lost, he was the
> > only one who was punished? Didn't McGonagall as a responsible adult bear
> > a greater responsibility for what had occurred?
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> I didn't address that point because I'm not sure why you think McGonagall's 
> arrangements are at fault here. <snip> 


> You have to find a balance between giving kids the chance to learn 
> responsibility, and not putting too much on them. I don't believe the 
> expectations being
> 
> placed on Neville in this case are unreasonable.
> 
> In a sense, the list of passwords to Gryffindor Tower could be viewed as 
> being equivalent to a house key. Losing them could be considered equivalent 
> to
> 
> losing your front door key.
> 
> Is it reasonable to expect a 13 year old boy to have a house key given that 
> it's a normal expectation that he will be passing through that door on a 
> regular
> 
> basis? I believe it is. Is it reasonable to expect a 13 year old boy to take 
> good care of that house key to the extent that even if he forgets to carry 
> it
> 
> occasionally, he has least some idea where he last left it? I believe it is. 


a_svirn:
So do I. However, "normal" is an operative word here. You yourself diagnosed Neville with learning disability. That would make him not quite as normal as the rest of Gryffindors. Is it reasonable to expect a boy with extremely bad memory not to misplace a key when he misplaces everything else? I am not sure. But this situation is even worse than that. Sir Cadogan's passwords are described as "ridiculously complicated" and he moreover "changed them at least twice a day". Even if it is reasonable to expect a thirteen year old boy with notoriously bad memory not to loose his key, it would be absolutely unreasonable to expect him to memorise complicated code combinations which are changed at least twice a day. 



> Shaun:
> And I believe it is even if that boy does have memory issues. That might 
> make the second of those two expectations somewhat more difficult for him, 
> but it
> 
> shouldn't impact the first or the third to any significant degree.
> 
> And in a sense, it's even more important you do this with kids who have 
> learning difficulties. If you allow a child's learning difficulties to stop 
> you
> 
> letting them do things they should be capable of, then you're not doing the 
> child a service. You're actually doing them a great disservice. There are 
> limits
> 
> - no child with a learning difficulty should ever be knowingly be placed in 
> a situation which their LD actually prevents them from doing.

a_svirn:
Which exactly what happened with Neville. 



> a_svirn:
> > I wasn't discussing teachers' rights (though I don't believe they
> > are equal to those of parents); I was merely saying that McGonagall's
> > behaviour in this scene is petty. Parents can be petty too. I'd say
> > ridiculing a teenage daughter's taste in jewellery is not the best
> > strategy to improve it.
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> Here we get into a really esoteric area - the legal basis of teaching. You 
> may not agree that teachers' rights are equal to those of parents (and I 
> absolutely believe that they shouldn't be) but unfortunately, perhaps for 
> both of us, it's a long held principle of British common law that they are. 
> The doctrine of 'in loco parentis' goes back literally to the middle ages 
> and all indications are still very strong that it applies at Hogwarts (the 
> only time we ever see a permission slip required of students is when they 
> are going to be allowed to leave the grounds of the school to go into 
> Hogsmeade, in other words, when they might arguably be stepping outside the 
> authority of the school.

a_svirn:
Yes, Hogwarts attitude towards the rights of parents does seem somewhat medieval, especially when it comes to muggle parents.