Sadism or not ? McGonagall and her punishments

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 186747

> > Magpie:
> > Whoa. Sorry I missed this but wow, this is exactly the kind of thing
> > that would drive me crazy if I was a kid. It's exactly the "spirit of
> > the law" that gets broken by saying that McGonagall's only "bending"
> > it by going to Dumbledore.
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> Really? Well, I find that odd. Both based on my own expectations of teachers 
> as a child, and in the expectations of the children I teach today. Most 
> children have a reasonably strong sense of what they consider to be right 
> and wrong (which may or may not match the common adult perception of these 
> things) and most children seem to understand that sometimes rules should be 
> bent in order to make things fair.

Magpie:
This isn't about children not understanding that sometimes rules should be bent in order to make things fair. This is about this particular situation *not* being a case of rules "bent" to make anything fair and any kid could see that. The kids have to deal with that since they have no say in the situation, but I don't think they'd also agree to call it that as well.

Substitute situations that are about being fair or general ideas like "zero tolerance" are not relevant. Harry's being given a broom by the school has nothing to do with a zero tolerance policy on anything. I'm not sure why you listed all these examples of school policies being enforced in a ridiculous way (girl suspended for having a nail file) as if their being unfair makes Harry's situation fair. This situation is more like if the school has a zero tolerance on bringing weapons to school, but when Harry gets caught shooting at cans and it turns out he's a good shot his teacher buys him a top of the line gun for himself hoping he'll take out somebody she doesn't like. Because that's only fair?

> Magpie:
> > If the point is safety, then all first years who demonstrate an
> > aptitude for flying should be able to be able to bring a broom
> > (not that Harry even has to bring a broom--he's given a gift of
> > a broom that's better than anyone else's while every other
> > student has to buy their own or use the school brooms). Harry's
> > hardly the first first year at Hogwarts to be able to fly already
> > by the time he gets there. He's not even the only first year who's
> > a good flyer in his own year. If a kid isn't already flying he
> > probably wouldn't have a broom to bring in the first place. So
> > to me the spirit of the rule must be directed at "naturals" like
> > Harry as much as anybody else.
> 
> Shaun:

> The question is, are there any other cases identical to Harry's?
> 
> Harry doesn't just seem to be good on a broom. He seems to be absolutely 
> brilliant. Oliver Wood, the first time he sees Harry practice as a seeker, 
> believes he has the potential to play internationally someday.

Magpie:
There are no other cases that we know of that are identical to Harry's since Harry's special treament is referred to a lot. Lots of kids have the potential to play internationally someday. According to JKR Ginny Weasley does play professionally and the rule isn't waived for her. Nor is Harry's alleged professional potential ever shown to be a motivation for anybody. 

Shaun:
> Harry is the first first year in a century to be selected for his house 
> team. He's not just good - he's truly exceptional. IIRC, the only times 
> Harry fails to get the Snitch in all his time at Hogwarts is in matches 
> where he became unconscious. When he's allowed to play a full game, he wins 
> every time.
> 
> An exception that can be justified for him may not be justified for any 
> other student. They're just not good enough.

Magpie:
Yeah, I noticed Harry never loses anything, really, as long as he's conscious. But canonically, McGonagall doesn't really care one way or the other how Harry nurtures his brilliant talent. She just wants a Seeker for Gryffindor--and she wants him playing on the best broom. Once she gets that, whether Harry reaches his full potential as a professional player is no concern of hers. 

Shaun:
> It would be unfair if another first-year student as good as Harry was denied 
> the chance to play - if Professor Snape had gone to Professor Dumbledore and 
> asked that a similar exception be made for Draco Malfoy, then it would be 
> horribly unjust if this was not done. But there's absolutely no sign that 
> this was even contemplated.

Magpie:
I don't see how the fact that Snape didn't push for special treatment for Draco somehow makes McGonagall's pushing for special treatment for Harry (a student who also happens to be a favorite of Dumbledore's) fair. McGonagall's the one who's specifically looking for a Seeker that year.

Shaun; 
> 
> I've mentioned a couple of times now, one of my own schoolmates who was 
> given the only exemption in the school concerning the wearing of earrings, 
> and he was given it because he was a professional actor the role he was 
> undertaking at the time required him to have an earring. Did we think that 
> was unfair? I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly didn't - I 
> understood there was a special reason for him to have that exemption. I was 
> also fairly certain that *if* any other student had been in the same 
> situation, they'd have got the same exemption.

Magpie:
And as I said, that situation has nothing to do with this one. 

> Shaun:
> 
> She pushes through the change because he is that good. Yes, she wants him on 
> the team - but she wants him on the team because he's a truly exceptional 
> player. The two things go together. And, yes, she gets him a broom. 
> Normally, I'd object to that - except for one *very* important special 
> factor in Harry's case. In loco parentis - Professor McGonagall is in place 
> of his parents, and for an orphan, that carries special responsibilities, 
> both morally and legally. There's a big difference between being ILP for a 
> child who has parents, and having that role for a child who doesn't.  And 
> when you look at the situation Harry is in...

Magpie:
McGonagall does not let Harry break the rule because he's so good his talent must be nurtured and she doesn't buy him a top of the line broom because she's acting as his parent. She lets him play and buys him the broom so that her team can have a Seeker riding on the best broom. This is the reason given in canon. There is no evidence of McGonagall or anyone else at the school feeling a personal responsibility to nurture Harry's personal gifts as a flier. Nor is there any examples of McGonagall acting as a parent in this kind of elaborately generous way. Or really any way. She's not acting as a parent here, she's acting as the house mistress and so "owner" of the Gryffindor team. Thank goodness she isn't claiming to be acting on a sacred trust to look after Harry as a war orphan by buying him the broom and letting him play--the blatant benefits to herself and notable lack of motherly feelings elsewhere would suggest some cynicism.

Shaun: 

> (Of course, today, Matthew Newton is one of the stars of the most popular 
> and controversial program on Australian television. He's been nominated for 
> at least a Logie (Australia's equivalent of an Emmy) and a Helpmann 
> (Australia's equivalent of a Tony). I think most people would now agree the 
> school was right to think he had real potential in this area).

Magpie:
And all the professional Quidditch players from Harry's years were kids who had to wait until second year before they could have their own broom at school. And didn't have the school buying it for them when they did, even if they couldn't afford one themselves. I would say that the school's efforts to foster Harry's great flying talent for its own sake were disappointing, but luckily the school never made any efforts to foster Harry's great flying talent for its own sake. McGonagall just needed a Seeker, saw that Harry the first year had a talent for flying and catching things out of the air, and didn't want to wait until his second year to put him on the team. And while she was at it, might as well put him on the best broom she could.

 
> Steve replies:
> >
> > Magpie makes good points here. I understand the "spirit" vs "letter"
> > of the law distinctions shaun is mentioning, but I don't think they
> > actually apply in this specific case of McG allowing Harry to have
> > a really high quality broom in his first year.  I think Magpie is
> > right on the mark thinking McGonagall's main motivation is for
> > Harry being on the team with the best broom available so that
> > McGonagall's "home" Quidditch team has a better chance of winning.
> > Of course, it also provides JKR w/ major plot lines for Harry playing
> > Quidditch, although perhaps she could have just accomplished that
> > by not writing there being a "no first years having brooms" rule.
> > I imagine you mean Harry flying home to care for his sick grandmother
> > as opposed to his strict grandmother however? :)
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> I certainly agree that Professor McGonagall wants Harry on the team for 
> reasons that aren't entirely about Harry (and are probably more about 
> Gryffindor prestige than anything else) but the thing is, that wouldn't be 
> an issue if Harry wasn't very good.

Magpie:
Aren't entirely about Harry? The only way they're about Harry is that they're about what Harry will do for her. Harry is happy be used this way, of course. I'm not sure why it not being an issue if Harry wasn't good makes any difference. If Harry wasn't good McGonagall wouldn't have seen a Seeker she wanted in him. If this had been taking place in Slytherin with McGonagall as house mistress with the same situation she'd no doubt have gone to Dumbledore for Draco Malfoy and it would have been played as Malfoy getting special treatment that our pov characters don't like as opposed to liking it.

Shaun:
> 
> My school accepted me as a pupil over and above other students (and later 
> gave me a scholarship) out of a fair degree of self interest. They thought 
> that having me as a pupil might someday pay dividends for them.

Shaun:
So since legitimate scholarship programs exist a teacher getting the "no first years may have their own brooms at school" and buying him a top of the line model must be totally like a scholarship program? I don't think so. Any example of favoritism, bias, prejudice or unequal dealings with students could be justified that way.

Shaun:
> 
> Is anyone prepared to argue that Harry would, overall, be better off if he'd 
> hadn't been allowed to play Quidditch in First Year? If so, I'd be 
> fascinated to hear why, personally.

Magpie:
It makes no difference whether Harry would be or not. Nobody's argued that Harry isn't happy to get drafted into McGonagall's Quidditch rivalry with Snape because it's fun. Lots of kids might have been overall better off if they'd been given an expensive broom and allowed to keep it their first year. Why else would they be jealous of Harry?
> 
> Magpie:
> > No, it's like calling a good natural flier a good natural flier.
> > Harry is not being trained to be a professional Quidditch player
> > by Hogwarts.
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> Isn't he?

Magpie:
No, he isn't. The fact the professional players come from Hogwarts does not mean they are being trained to be professionals at Hogwarts. They're not being trained at all. They don't even have Quidditch coaches. 


> Magpie:
> > His personal skills are not much interest to anyone beyond
> > the inter-house rivalry. They don't buy him a broom because
> > he's supposed to be the Mozart of Quidditch. He doesn't
> > practice out of some prodigy specific need to have his own
> > broom that's the best there is. Viktor Krum is even
> > significantly better than he is at the same age so if there's
> > anybody who's the Mozart here it's Viktor.
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> Viktor Krum is about three years older than Harry, not the same age. Is he 
> better than Harry? Well, Harry isn't playing international Quidditch at the 
> age of 17 - but then again, he's too busy saving the world.

Magpie:
I said when he was at the same age. Meaning when Harry is 17 there is no indication that he's reached Viktor's level. Even if he wasn't saving the world he wouldn't be playing International Quidditch. He recognizes when he sees the professionals that they play at a much higher level than his team does at Hogwarts. Of course he could still become a professional player, just as Ginny and Oliver do. They'd just have to start seriously training after they left that school.

-m