Power of names and Tigana SPOILERS WAS : Re: DH reread CH 20

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 186752

Pippin:
I think the idea is to show the difference between a superstitious fear and a
rational precaution, and also the dangerous power of habits and symbols. Saying
the name had no magical effect whatever until after the Ministry takeover, and
Dumbledore encouraged it as a minor act of defiance against Voldemort. Very few
people would actually have the magical strength or the opportunity to battle
with Death Eaters, but anyone, even a child, could say the name. But when
Voldemort actually had the power to put a trace on people who said it, the fact
that only a few people had ever followed Dumbledore's lead in this made them
vulnerable, and they needed to stop saying the name.

 
Alla:

I suppose this is one of the motives that I expected to play out more than a minor act of defiance against Voldemort. As I am sure you know power of names is extremely common motive in fantasy and IMO this is one of the motives which never gets old, because it resonates with real life power of names if that makes sense.
I think it makes sense that when Indian tribes or African tribes called their young ones long names, that very often kids wanted to become what they were called. Because as somebody told me if you are called Brave warrior or Smart mouth every day of your life, that's whom you eventually would want to become. 

Anyway, so often in fantasy if you know wizard's true name, often it gives the enemies additional power, right? I was just thinking that JKR may want to explore this motive. I am not saying that she should have of course, but I just feel that she opened the door to it, but then changed the direction. Which is of course is her right, all that I am saying that to me these two moments do not go well together.

In Tigana the whole plot sprays from the idea that evil  wizard cast a spell that made it impossible for the people who were not born in the country to hear and say the name of the country. And basically the idea was that when everybody who was born there dies, the country will disappear, even though it is still on the map, you know? It is beautiful, it is extremely powerful, and I just think that power of names is something more than minor thing.

JKR opened the door in my opinion to the power of name being something evil in this instance that has a hold over people, I just thought that it will play out as something that will be broken.

Pippin:
Being able to say the name did not give Harry any special power, beyond
impressing people who were afraid to say it and antagonizing DE's. But Harry had
unconsciously started to regard his ability to say it as a kind of talisman,
IMO, and it became a habit that he found hard to break.

Alla:

Well, yes and I am saying that I thought it will give him some powers, but even if not, it gave people extra confidence, extra bravery, no?

And yes, exactly I just did not expect that this was the habit he would **have to** learn how to break. From Dumbledore's earlier teachings I expected exactly the opposite.




lizzyben:

But was it ever an irrational superstition? This is the magical world, after
all, where spoken words can have instantaneous results in the real world. So
ultimately, saying "You-Know-Who" wasn't a silly superstition at all, but a
rational precaution. And if the "taboo" was a known spell, it seems like DD
should have been aware of the potential danger, as almost everyone else seemed
to be.

Alla:

Oh I agree with you that it is so often not an irrational superstition in magical worlds, but I agree with Pippin that apparently it was till they placed that Taboo spell. 

Lizzyben:
But wasn't "Tom Riddle" his proper name, after all? What I think is strange is
that Dumbledore insisted on making everyone else call him "Lord Voldemort". But
that was the name Tom Riddle had created for *himself*, the self-glorifying,
terrifying name he wanted to be known as. Yet Dumbledore himself called him
"Tom" - which was a much more effective way of reducing him down to size &
taking away the fake persona Riddle had created. <SNIP>

Alla:

Here I absolutely agree with you. I would think that Dumbledore would make sure that every paper of the WW, at least when he was still that influential, I do know that he could not do it in OOP, would print a story of who Lordie dear really was, that all he was is a half blood named Tommy Riddle. Something tells me that many purebloods just may have some hesitations about throwing themselves at his feet. I think it would have make them think twice about doing that since supposed pureblood champion is not a pureblood at all. I do wonder why exactly Dumbledore did not scream at the top of his lungs the truth of who Tom Riddle really was. I am wondering if Dumbledore was so deep into his secrets that he thought that this will be something the world better not know, just as when he did not share his suspicions about Tom with anybody while he was still in school.

Lizzyben:
<SNIP>
To me, it's sort of like as if Harry said something about that jerk Snape,
and DD gently insisted that Harry call Snape by his proper name: "The Half-Blood
Prince!"

Alla:

LOLOL. Yes I can buy this analogy.


Pippin:

Voldemort wasn't trying to scare people out of saying "Tom." But I think
Dumbledore didn't want to make an issue of Riddle's bloodline. There were some
people who wouldn't have trusted Voldemort if they'd known he was once Tom
Riddle -- but Dumbledore did not think that would be a good reason not to trust
someone.

Alla:

Huh? I totally think as I said above that many purebloods would have left Voldemort if they knew that he was really Tom and it seems to me that you agree, right? Are you saying that Dumbledore thought that this reason is not NOBLE enough to not trust a person or something along these lines? Or are you saying something different? Because if this is what you are arguing Dumbledore is thinking, I can only shake my head (at Dumbledore, not at you of course). Dumbledore is not beyond forcing a man to do anything, anything for him in exchange for protection of the woman he loves, he is not beyond of forcing that  same man to kill him. And hey, who but that man is better qualified to decide if something happens to his soul, but Dumbledore still wants him to do it. And hey, while I personally still find Dumbledore's methods totally disgusting here, it is for the good of the cause, getting rid of the Voldemort, etc. But Dumbledore thinks it is not good to use any methods to make sure the number of Voldemort's followers will decrease?

JMO,

Alla