From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Sun Nov  1 04:02:24 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 00:02:24 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
Message-ID: <bd5.5159fb6b.381e6250@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188317

 
In a message dated 10/31/2009 10:59:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
sandie.hans at gmail.com writes:
 
 
sandie.hans writes:

. The  last question is about the next gen... In a canon-based fanfic I 
read, the  author referred to the three Potter kids as purebloods and the two 
Weasley  kids as half bloods. Obviously Ron and Hermione's kids are half 
bloods, but is  that correct about the Potter kids (HB Harry + PB Ginny = PB 
kids?). I kinda  thought once a PB wizard married anything other than a PB, 
their kids were no  longer PB.




My guess is that in the old WW order that would be the case, in the  post 
LV world not so much. . .hopefully.  
 
It never made sense to me that Harry was considered a HB.  His  father was 
a PB and his mother was a MB.  IMHO a half-blood is one who  has 1 magical 
and 1 muggle parent. Both of Harry's parents are magical so at the  most I 
would consider Harry to be Full-blooded rather than Pure-blooded or  
Half-blooded.  
 
But JKR would probably consider Harry and Ginny's children to be HB.
 
Melissa 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 06:55:04 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 06:55:04 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <hchjga+5g1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcjbc8+sh9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188318

---  "spa76" <sandie.hans at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> 1. Are the elder Lovegoods and Weasleys friends? ...
> 
> 2. How long was Ron at Shell Cottage/away from Harry & Hermione? ...
> 
> 3. The last question is about the next gen... In a canon-based fanfic I read, the author referred to the three Potter kids as purebloods and the two Weasley kids as half bloods. Obviously Ron and Hermione's kids are half bloods, but is that correct about the Potter kids (HB Harry + PB Ginny = PB kids?). I kinda thought once a PB wizard married anything other than a PB, their kids were no longer PB.
> 
> Thanks!
>

bboyminn:

Other are doing well on the first two questions, so I'll 
tackle the third.

'Blood' is in the eye of the beholder. To some, if you don't
have generation of pureblood, then you are not pureblood.
To others, your grandfather and grandmother at least need to
be a wizard and witch. 

So, if we look are Ron and Hermione, we have an indisputable
pureblood, and a first generation Muggle-born.

If we look at Harry and Ginny, again we have an indisputable
purebood, and a second generation wizard. Harry is a wizard,
his mother was a muggle-born. 

So Ron's kids are second generation like Harry, and Harry's 
kids are third generation magical being, so one could draw a 
distinction between them. Though I'm afraid it would be a
distinction that very very few would consider. 

We don't say Harry is a muggle-born, but we don't say he is
a pureblood either. He is simply a wizard; a second 
generation magical being.

So, we really shouldn't consider Ron's kid as Half-bloods. 
They, like Harry, are simply second generation magical beings.
Not purebloods, but not half-bloods either.  

Now Dean Thomas is a true half-blood. His father a wizard,
and his mother a pure muggle. 

I also don't quite think we can think of this as standard
genetics. It is not like you can say, well I'm 1/16th
Cherokee. Once you have a witch and a wizard, from then on
the kids are not mixed blood. They are pure magical beings,
but pure magical being who can not trace their magic back
through countless generations. In otherwords, they are pure
magical being, they are just not pureblood magical beings. 

It is a fine and subtle distinction, and one that will vary
between people in the wizard world. So, this author who 
referred to them as pureblood and half-blood, is either 
mistaken, or he is intensionally writing from the perspective
of someone with a degree of prejudice. 

Again, what you would call these kids, how you would define
them, is an extremely variable point, that will vary from
person to person. 

Steve/bboyminn







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 16:46:03 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 16:46:03 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <bd5.5159fb6b.381e6250@aol.com>
Message-ID: <hcke0b+bc95@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188319

Melissa wrote: 
<snip>  
> It never made sense to me that Harry was considered a HB.  His  father was a PB and his mother was a MB.  IMHO a half-blood is one who  has 1 magical and 1 muggle parent. Both of Harry's parents are magical so at the  most I would consider Harry to be Full-blooded rather than Pure-blooded or Half-blooded.  
>  
> But JKR would probably consider Harry and Ginny's children to be HB.
>  
> Melissa 

Carol responds:
I don't think so. According to JKR in an interview, blood status (for those who care about it) has to do with the grandparents. Rose and Hugo Weasley, like Harry, are Half-Bloods because they have two Muggle and two magical grandparents (who happen to be purebloods). But James, Albus Severus, and Lily Potter are Pure-bloods because they have four magical grandparents (three purebloods and a Muggle-born, but that doesn't matter because the Muggle great-grandparents are too far back to count). Technically, I suppose, they could be "three-quarter bloods" since Lily Evans Potter has no Wizarding blood, but we don't see any such quibbling distinctions. Even eleven-year-old Draco only talks about "our kind" and "the other kind," meaning, apparently, those with Wizarding blood and those without. By the same token, the LV-run MoM targets "Mud-bloods" but not Half-Bloods. Anyone who can prove that he has one Wizarding family member (not necessarily a parent or other ancestor, IIRC) is allowed a wand.

As Ron (I think) says, there are very few genuine Pure-Bloods with no Muggle ancestry whatever: "If we hadn't married Muggles, we would have died out." Of course, Blacks who marry Muggles are burned off the family tree, and Malfoys et al. who marry Muggles are probably similarly ostracized, but if the alternative is habitually marrying your own cousins and end up like the Gaunts, obviously it's preferable to marry Muggles (or, at least, Muggle-borns). Just how a Pure-Blood with no known (or recent) Muggle ancestors would meet and marry a Muggle is hard to imagine (unless they live in a mixed village Godric's Hollow or Ottery St. Catchpole), but it's considerably more likely than Wizards marrying Giants (or Goblins or Trolls).

At any rate, I think the simplest solution is the most logical. Four Muggle grandparents (and two Muggle parents) equals a Muggle-born; one, two or three Muggle grandparents (technically) equals a Half-Blood regardless of whether the parent(s) with Muggle blood is/are Muggles or Muggle-borns; and no Muggle grandparents equals a Pure-Blood even if one or more of those grandparents is a Muggle-born because the Muggle blood is three generations back.

OTOH, "Half-Bloods" whose parents are both magical can easily pass as Pure-Bloods and no one will care much (unless a Pure-blood who cares about such things rejects them as a marriage partner because their surname isn't in the wizarding genealogy).

Carol, who was also initially confused by Harry's blood status but thinks she understands the concept now






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Nov  1 18:02:43 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 1 Nov 2009 18:02:43 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/1/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1257098563.13.64034.m2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188320

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Nov  1 19:25:21 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 19:25:21 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <hcke0b+bc95@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcknb1+mljd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188321

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol:
> As Ron (I think) says, there are very few genuine Pure-Bloods with no Muggle ancestry whatever: "If we hadn't married Muggles, we would have died out." 
> OTOH, "Half-Bloods" whose parents are both magical can easily pass as Pure-Bloods and no one will care much (unless a Pure-blood who cares about such things rejects them as a marriage partner because their surname isn't in the wizarding genealogy).

Geoff:
Ron's full comment to which you correctly draw attention is:

'"It's a disgusting thing to call someone," said Ron, wiping his sweaty
brow with a shaking hand. "Dirty blood, see. Common blood. It's mad.
Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married 
Muggles we'd've died out."'
(COS "Mudbloods and Murmurs" p.89 UK edition)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov  1 22:01:46 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:01:46 -0000
Subject: graduation / Veritaserum
Message-ID: <hcl0ga+gjc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188322

Brian wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188285>:

<< The reason I get annoyed by US writers putting in a totally illogical graduation is that they are writing a story set in Britain. Is it SO hard to expect an American writer to respect British culture when writing about Britain? >>

Yes, but British wizard culture is not exactly the same as British muggle culture, and Hogwarts is a unique institution. It was founded at a time when there were no universities in Britain or Western Europe, and I don't think there were any schools not associated with monasteries, and Hogwarts must have awarded its own qualifications (degrees, diplomas) for the centuries before OWLs and NEWTs were invented, so it may have had graduation and degree-granting ceremonies before universities did.

Steve bboyminn wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188316>:

<< I believe JKR was asked this question and pointed out that Veritaserum and its use is strickly controlled, and that there are way around it, the same as there are ways around lie detectors. If the speaker believes that what he says is true then he is able to speak it as if it were truth. >> 

<http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=105> is where Rowling was asked this question, and her answer includes "Veritaserum works best upon the unsuspecting, the vulnerable and those insufficiently skilled (in one way or another) to protect themselves against it. Barty Crouch had been attacked before the potion was given to him and was still very groggy, otherwise he could have employed a range of measures against the Potion - he might have sealed his own throat and faked a declaration of innocence, transformed the Potion into something else before it touched his lips, or employed Occlumency against its effects. In other words, just like every other kind of magic within the books, Veritaserum is not infallible. As some wizards can prevent themselves being affected, and others cannot, it is an unfair and unreliable tool to use at a trial."




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Nov  1 23:52:14 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 23:52:14 -0000
Subject: graduation / Veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <hcl0ga+gjc7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcl6ve+spht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188323

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:
>
> Brian wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188285>:
> 
> << The reason I get annoyed by US writers putting in a totally illogical graduation is that they are writing a story set in Britain. Is it SO hard to expect an American writer to respect British culture when writing about Britain? >>
> 
> Yes, but British wizard culture is not exactly the same as British muggle culture, and Hogwarts is a unique institution. It was founded at a time when there were no universities in Britain or Western Europe, and I don't think there were any schools not associated with monasteries, and Hogwarts must have awarded its own qualifications (degrees, diplomas) for the centuries before OWLs and NEWTs were invented, so it may have had graduation and degree-granting ceremonies before universities did.

Geoff:
I seriously doubt that because Hogwarts is not a post-Sixth Form institution 
and, historically in the UK, there is no granting of degrees, graduation or 
similar event for the eighteen year old. These are the preserve of the 
universities, colleges of further education and other post-A level 
organisations.

On the question of dates, Oxford University is a close contemporary of 
Hogwarts and the universities of Bologna and Paris were earlier European 
foundations. There were certainly earlier Islamic universities existing at 
this time, the one at Fes in Morocco being considered as the oldest 
degree-granting, dating from AD 859.









From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Nov  2 04:19:10 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 04:19:10 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <hci60r+8jsa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hclmju+u2e9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188324


Carol responds:
Sorry that I misunderstood which visit to Shell Cottage you were referring to. However, we do have some clues to how long Ron was gone. First, he clearly leaves in autumn ("Goblin's Revenge"). Also, the visit to the MoM in which HRH retrieve the locket Horcrux, takes place on September 2 ("Magic Is Might"). Dirk Cresswell, who apparently has just been exposed at that time as a Muggle-born thanks to the odious Runcorn, tells Ted Tonks that he's been on the run for six or seven weeks. That would place the conversation (assuming that JKR is paying attention to the time frame) at approximately October 21 (going with the seven-week estimate). If that's correct, Ron is away from Harry and Hermione for just over two months since he seems to return on the day after Christmas.
 
Bill doesn't need to tell his family about Ron, but he does need to make an excuse for not being with them for Christmas. Ron, it seems, leaves on Christmas Day and just misses them that night.

Marianne:

If Ron was at Shell Cottage for 2+ months, I would think eventually B&F would ask Ron what he was going to do?  Lurk about their house forever, or go back to H&H.  I'm sure Ron wasn't exacly looking forward to facing the music when he showed back up to H&H, but he did anyway.  Or maybe B&F put their feet down and told him to go back.

I know from experience.  A long, long time ago, when I was very young and very stupid, I showed up with a friend at his sister's house. 2 days later they were asking when I was going home and face the music.  I realized what a heap of trouble I was in and I was scared s!!tless about going home.  I was in a heap of trouble, and I paid for it for months.

Ron faced the wrath of Hermione for I don't know how long.  Getting the wrath of Hermione would be as bad as facing the wrath of any relative.




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  2 04:22:21 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 04:22:21 -0000
Subject: Usage of Veritaserum during Legal Hearings in the MoM?
In-Reply-To: <hch66i+3kvi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hclmpt+7sam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188325

Joey wrote:
>
> Was just wondering about this: Both in GoF and OoTP we get to learn about legal hearings / trials (sometimes via the Pensieve). 
> 
> However, we don't get to see *anybody* deciding to use Veritaserum to know if the person being questioned is saying the truth. Whether it is Crouch Jr. or Bagman or Harry or Mrs Figg, they are interrogated the Muggle way.
> 
> Any thoughts on this topic? Sorry if this has been discussed already.
> 
> Cheers,
> ~Joey :-)
>

Thanks so much for all replies posted in response to this query! I found them all interesting and informative. :-)

And yes, with reference to Barty Jr., I was certainly referring to his trial that we get to see via the pensieve where he keeps screaming that he is innocent even while Bellatrix announces that they had done it. 

Actually, it was this incident that made me think of this question when I read GoF for the second time (after reading the entire series once). 

I found it a bit out of character for Bellatrix not to have given the screaming Barty Jr. a dirty look or a snarl, accompanied by rebukes for being cowardly about declaring his alleigance to Voldemort. In OoTP climax or Spinner's End or Malfoy Manor, she seems to get pretty mad and over-emotional at the drop of a hat. 

Probably JKR decided to downplay this trait of Bellatrix's character in this GoF pensieve scene just to keep up the suspense element (because when I was reading GoF for the first time, I was searching for hints as to why the screaming boy should not be saying the truth). 

Or probably Bellatrix's ferocity / lack of control over her emotions worsened after her stay at Azkaban.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Nov  2 04:38:07 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 04:38:07 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <611762.73250.qm@web55007.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hclnnf+dnja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188326


> >
> Carol responds:
> 
>The Weasley Twins took care not to perform a spell when they used magic on a Muggle (and, yes, they clearly planned that little stunt) so that the magic wouldn't be detectable.


Marianne:

????  Don't remember that one.




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Nov  2 04:43:13 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 04:43:13 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hci52g+eljd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hclo11+n750@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188327



Carol:
I happen to agree with you though not necessarily with regard to this example. Even in SS/PS, we have the Charlie Weasley problem and the Missing Twenty-four hours, which I suppose the copyeditor either didn't notice or thought was beyond the scope of his or her job (there was no consistency editor at that point since it was the first book). The project editor may or may not have noticed those problems but probably thought they weren't worth worrying about in a first novel/children's book that might not even sell.

Marianne:

Again. ???  The missing 24 hours???  Charlie Weasley problem????

Sorry I came on this list halfway through DH so I missed a lot of the discussions.




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  2 07:52:26 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:52:26 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hclnnf+dnja@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcm33q+cb21@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188328



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wildirishrose01us" <wildirishrose at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > >
> > Carol responds:
> > 
> >The Weasley Twins took care not to perform a spell when they used magic on a Muggle (and, yes, they clearly planned that little stunt) so that the magic wouldn't be detectable.
> 
> 
> Marianne:
> 
> ????  Don't remember that one.
>

bboyminn:

The sweet the Twins dropped for Dudley to pick up; the Ton Tongue Toffee. 

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  2 08:06:47 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:06:47 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hclo11+n750@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcm3un+1kcj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188329



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wildirishrose01us" <wildirishrose at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Carol:
> I happen to agree with you though not necessarily with regard to this example. Even in SS/PS, we have the Charlie Weasley problem and the Missing Twenty-four hours, ...
> 
> Marianne:
> 
> Again. ???  The missing 24 hours???  Charlie Weasley problem????
> 
> Sorry I came on this list halfway through DH so I missed a lot of the discussions.
>

bboyminn:

There is a missing 24 hours between when Harry's parents are 
killed and when Harry was dropped off at the Dursley on Privet
Drive. Where was Harry during that time? Who was taking care 
of him? 

Why did they fly in from Bristol in the west, and not
from the north in the direction of Hogwarts and Scotland? 

I suggest, to the last item, that they (Hagrid and Harry)
may have flow straight south over the Iris Sea, the near
Bristol, turned East and flew into Surrey. Seem like a good
idea until someone pointed out that the Irish Sea is a 
training ground for the Royal Air Force, and is likely a 
'no fly' zone for any one other than scheduled commercial
airlines. Not really a safe place to be flying around on a
flying motorcycle.

The implication is that Hagrid flew in from near Bristol,
further implying that Harry was stashed near Bristol during
that missing 24 hour period. But, it has never been explained. 

Perhaps, Dumbledore had Hagrid and Harry fly out of the 
country into Ireland. Then Hagrid could reasonably fly
over Bristol on his way to Surrey. 

When referring to Quidditch, people at the school keep referring
to how good Charlie Weasley was, yet the time line on his time
at Hogwarts doesn't quite add up. In one sense, it seems as
if he has been gone from the school for a long while. In 
another sense, it seems as if he left only a couple years ago. 
So, it is not clear when he was at school. 

There are several other minor niggling problems like this 
that don't quite add up, but at the same time don't really
detract from the central story line itself.

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  2 08:13:00 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:13:00 -0000
Subject: graduation / Veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <hcl0ga+gjc7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcm4ac+lais@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188330



--- "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:
>
> Brian wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188285>:
> 
> << The reason I get annoyed by US writers putting in a totally illogical graduation is that they are writing a story set in Britain. ... >>
> 
> Yes, but British wizard culture is not exactly the same as British muggle culture, and Hogwarts is a unique institution. It was founded at a time when there were no universities in Britain or Western Europe, and I don't think there were any schools not associated with monasteries, and Hogwarts must have awarded its own qualifications (degrees, diplomas) for the centuries before OWLs and NEWTs were invented, so it may have had graduation and degree-granting ceremonies before universities did.
> 
> 

bboyminn:

First thanks for the direct quote about Veritaserum.

Next, no I don't think Hogwarts awarded qualifications, degrees,
or doplomas. It make more sense that they used a Master and
Apprentice system. When the Master Wizard said you were ready, 
then off you went to make your way in the world. Perhaps the
Master Wizard wrote a letter saying you had reach a certain
level of competency, but I think these were given out when
ever he thought you were ready. I wasn't a specific course
work within a specific time frame.  

I suspect early schools/Monasteries were this way too. You
just kept going to school until they said you were done, then
you were done. Or, you kept going until they said you were
hopeless and cut you loose. 

Steve/bboyminn




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  2 16:28:41 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:28:41 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hclnnf+dnja@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcn1bp+2jnr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188331

Carol earlier:
> > 
> >The Weasley Twins took care not to perform a spell when they used magic on a Muggle (and, yes, they clearly planned that little stunt) so that the magic wouldn't be detectable.
> 
> 
> Marianne:
> 
> ????  Don't remember that one.
>
Carol responds:
Sorry to be unclear. I was referring to the Ton-tongue toffee--they clearly intended for Dudley to take the bait, and he certainly was the victim of their magic, but since the spell had been performed in advance on the candy (which, perhaps, also involved a potion), the MoM couldn't detect the magic they'd performed on a Muggle.

Carol, who mistakenly assumed that the reference would be obvious




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  2 16:47:07 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:47:07 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hcm3un+1kcj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcn2eb+40v0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188332

Carol earlier:
> > I happen to agree with you though not necessarily with regard to this example. Even in SS/PS, we have the Charlie Weasley problem and the Missing Twenty-four hours, ...
> > 
> > Marianne:
> > 
> > Again. ???  The missing 24 hours???  Charlie Weasley problem????
> > 
> > Sorry I came on this list halfway through DH so I missed a lot of the discussions.
> >
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> There is a missing 24 hours between when Harry's parents are 
> killed and when Harry was dropped off at the Dursley on Privet
> Drive. Where was Harry during that time? Who was taking care 
> of him? <snip>

Carol responds:
More simply, McGonagall waits for about twenty-four hours in cat form for DD and Hagrid to show up. Why didn't they drop Baby Harry off within an hour or two of his parents' murder (which the whole WW seems to have known about by early morning of November 1, yet neither DD nor Hagrid arrives until after the Dursleys have gone to bed that night).

bboyminn:
> When referring to Quidditch, people at the school keep referring> to how good Charlie Weasley was, yet the time line on his time at Hogwarts doesn't quite add up. In one sense, it seems as if he has been gone from the school for a long while. In another sense, it seems as if he left only a couple years ago. So, it is not clear when he was at school. <snip>

Carol responds:

More precisely, Gryffindor supposedly hasn't won a Quidditch match for seven years as of SS/PS (and again, seven years as of PoA!), yet the "legendary Charlie Weasley" who "could have played for England" was Gryffindor's Seeker for several years, perhaps as many as six, and one of the Twins, IIRC, says in SS/PS, "We haven't won since Charlie left."

All well and good if Charlie is considerably older than his next brother, Percy, and has been out of school for seven years as of SS/PS, but JKR has Bill, who is two years older than Charlie, remark in GoF that he's only been out of Hogwarts for five years, and JKR said in an interview that Charlie was two years older than Percy, which she later changed to three years when someone pointed out that he'd have been at Hogwarts the previous year (when Harry and Ron were ten) if that were the case.

So either Charlie is about nine years older than Percy (and Bill is eleven years older) or the stint as Seeker of "the legendary Charlie Weasley" exactly coincides with the seven years that Gryffindor *lost* the Quidditch Cup to Slytherin.

Essentially, JKR doesn't seem to realize that she needs to add seven years to the age she's calculated for Charlie for the two sets of fictional facts to match up.

Carol, who won't even get into the ages of the Weasley parents, where JKR is also inconsistent





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  2 18:02:57 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:02:57 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <hclmju+u2e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcn6sh+ta2f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188333

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wildirishrose01us" <wildirishrose at ...> wrote:


> If Ron was at Shell Cottage for 2+ months, I would think 
> eventually B&F would ask Ron what he was going to do?  
> Lurk about their house forever, or go back to H&H.  
> I'm sure Ron wasn't exactly looking forward to facing 
> the music when he showed back up to H&H, but he did anyway.  
> Or maybe B&F put their feet down and told him to go back.


zanooda:

You make it sound as if Ron didn't return to Harry and Hermione earlier only because he didn't want to and was afraid to face them:-). The fact is, however, that he wanted to go back to them all the time, but he couldn't because he didn't know where they were.

Ron was held for some time by the Snatchers, and by the time he managed to escape, Harry and Hermione had already moved to another place. There was no way for him to find them, with their protective spells and all :-). So even if Bill and Fleur "put their feet down", it wouldn't have helped much :-). 





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Nov  2 20:03:52 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:03:52 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hcm3un+1kcj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcndv8+1167d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188334

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

bboyminn: 
> There is a missing 24 hours between when Harry's parents are 
> killed and when Harry was dropped off at the Dursley on Privet
> Drive. Where was Harry during that time? Who was taking care 
> of him? 
 
> Why did they fly in from Bristol in the west, and not
> from the north in the direction of Hogwarts and Scotland? 

> I suggest, to the last item, that they (Hagrid and Harry)
> may have flow straight south over the Iris Sea, the near
> Bristol, turned East and flew into Surrey. Seem like a good
> idea until someone pointed out that the Irish Sea is a 
> training ground for the Royal Air Force, and is likely a 
> 'no fly' zone for any one other than scheduled commercial
> airlines. Not really a safe place to be flying around on a
> flying motorcycle.
> 
> The implication is that Hagrid flew in from near Bristol,
> further implying that Harry was stashed near Bristol during
> that missing 24 hour period. But, it has never been explained. 

Geoff:
Because, Steve, you're barking up the wrong tree. They didn't fly 
from the north.

Just in passing, although the Irish Sea is used as a training area 
by the RAF, there is still a lot of non-military and non-scheduled
air traffic around. Where I live on Exmoor (on the south side of the 
Bristol Channel), there are a lot of military movements. I frequently 
curse RAF Tornados going over me at about 500-1000 feet when 
I'm trying to have a quiet stroll with the dog and we also get Hercules 
practising their low flying techniques as well as a lot of light 
aircraft, business helicopters and the Air Ambulance going overhead 
all the time plus commercial flights out of Cardiff Rhoose, fifteen 
miles away across the Channel. Military activities rarely close areas 
completely. We're too small a country for that.

But to get back on topic. Harry's parents James and Lily were killed at 
Godric's Hollow. There was a lot of discussion on this topic a few years 
back in which it was suggested that the village was in South Wales 
which would tie in with Hagrid's flight path.

However, since then, other information has surfaced, to wit:

'"The villages of Tinworth in Cornwall, Upper Flagley in Yorkshire and
Ottery St. Catchpole on the south coast of England were notable 
homes to knots of wizarding families who lived alongside tolerant and 
sometimes Confunded Muggles. Most celebrated of these half-magical 
dwelling places is, perhaps, Godric's Hollow, the West Country village
where the great wizard Godric Gryffindor was born and where Bowman 
Wright, wizarding smith, forged the first Golden Snitch."'
(DH "Godric's Hollow" p.261 UK edition)

Now, there has been a body of opinion which holds that Ottery St.
Catchpoleis near Ottery St. Mary, a town in South Devon, just east of 
Exeter which is also well into the West Country. However, if Godric's 
Hollow had been in that area, Hagrid's flight to Little Whinging would 
have taken him well to the south of Bristol, his destination, which I believe 
from canon evidence,  lies to the west of London not far from Heathrow 
Airport.

However, if Godric's Hollow lay in the northern area of the West Country 
- North Cornwall, North Devon or even my own West Somerset, a flight 
line could be nearer to Bristol. I think it would be more likeyl to be the
first two counties I have named because a direct flight line towards 
London would take Hagrid and baby Harry along the Bristol Channel 
making landfall at Weston-super-Mare and then travelling over Bath.

However, it is feasible that Hagrid may have steered sufficiently far north, 
five or six miles or so, to be skirting the southern suburbs of Bristol. 
Bristol is an extensive city. By coincidence, I had occasion two days ago 
to go to Reading for a conference and my train headed well up towards 
Bristol before heading more due east.

As regards Harry possibly being kept overnight - and where - remains 
a source of speculation.










From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Nov  2 20:20:20 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:20:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hcn2eb+40v0@eGroups.com>
References: <hcn2eb+40v0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4AEF3F04.4020106@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188335

Carol responds:
> Essentially, JKR doesn't seem to realize that she needs to add seven years to the age she's calculated for Charlie for the two sets of fictional facts to match up.
Bart:
    I used to say this on a regular basis, but it's been a while, so, 
allow me to remind you:

    "There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, 
and those who can't." - J. K. Rowling

    Bart



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  3 01:00:40 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:00:40 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?  - The West Country
In-Reply-To: <hcndv8+1167d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcnvbo+eest@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188336



---  "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "bboyminn" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> 
> bboyminn: 
> > There is a missing 24 hours between when Harry's parents are 
> > killed and when Harry was dropped off at the Dursley on Privet
> > Drive. Where was Harry during that time? Who was taking care 
> > of him? 
>  
> > Why did they fly in from Bristol in the west, and not
> > from the north in the direction of Hogwarts and Scotland? 
> 
> > ...
> > 
> > The implication is that Hagrid flew in from near Bristol,
> > further implying that Harry was stashed near Bristol during
> > that missing 24 hour period. But, it has never been explained. 
> 
> Geoff:
> Because, Steve, you're barking up the wrong tree. They didn't fly 
> from the north.
> 

bboyminn:

The flying down from the north along the Irish Sea was a 
speculation from a long ago discussion. An idea shot down for
the very reason cited in the section below that I deleted. 

> Geoff:
>
> ...
> 
> But to get back on topic. Harry's parents James and Lily were
> killed at Godric's Hollow. There was a lot of discussion on 
> this topic a few years back in which it was suggested that 
> the village was in South Wales which would tie in with 
> Hagrid's flight path.
> 
> However, since then, other information has surfaced, to wit:
> 
> '"... Most celebrated of these half-magical dwelling places 
> is, perhaps, Godric's Hollow, the West Country village
> ..."' (DH "Godric's Hollow" p.261 UK edition)
> 
> ...
> 
> However, it is feasible that Hagrid may have steered 
> sufficiently far north, five or six miles or so, to be 
> skirting the southern suburbs of Bristol. Bristol is an 
> extensive city. ...
> 
> As regards Harry possibly being kept overnight - and where
> - remains a source of speculation.
>

bboyminn:


Well, "West Country" covers a lot of area, I suspect Bristol
itself would be considered 'West Country'. Next does 'West
Country' refer to England itself, or would Wales be included
in the 'West Country'? 

In previous posts, I suspect that Harry might have been at
the Longbottom's (Alica and Frank) which may have been on of
the reasons why the DE's including Barty Jr and Bellatrix
attacked them a couple years later. 

I get the impression that Neville's Grandmother lives in 
the North 'country'. Though I may only think that because
Matt Lewis, who plays Neville in the movies, live north
of London. 

Also, keep in mind that Hagrid is flying, so he could be MANY
miles from Bristol and still see it clearly. As he flew over
or near, it would be the largest local landmark that could be
seen at night. So, Hagrid could have been 20 to 30 miles 
away (perhaps even 50 miles away) in any direction and still 
could have said he flew over Bristol. 

I suspect, as you seem to imply, that like many modern cities
the Bristol metropolitan area is huge compared to the city of
Bristol itself. This is even true of London. The REAL London
is just one small section in the center of a much larger city. 
The larger space we call London, is not really London at all, 
but a collection of what we would now call suburbs that spread 
out for many many miles in all directions. 

So, again, Hagrid could have been 30 miles or more from Bristol
proper, and he would have still said he flew over Bristol. 

But, we still don't know where Harry was. In my opinion, they
would have certainly wanted to get Harry out of Godrics Hollow.
I don't seem him staying with Bathilda Bagshot or with anyone 
else in Gordrics Hollow. Too close to the scene of the crime.
But none the less, he had to stay in that broad area somewhere
in order to be flying into Surrey from near Bristol. 

He could have been across from Bristol in Southern Wales. I
think JKR used to live in that area. They could have moved him
to safety in Ireland. Though that is a long flight. Or Hagrid
could have been flying from the near North or South, and simply
turned east near Bristol in order to reach Northern Surrey. 

Though I have absolutely no proof, I still like the idea of
Harry being stashed at with the Aurors Frank and Alice 
Longbottom. Also, since they had a son near Harry's age, they
would be equipped to deal with the needs of a baby. At least,
far better than Hagrid alone was able to deal with a baby. 

And one of the reasons I like it is because it could be used
as the justification for the DE's thinking Frank and Alice 
might have some information on Voldemort. 

Still, I don't think this will ever be more than pure 
speculation. 

Steve/bboyminn




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  3 03:29:39 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 03:29:39 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
Message-ID: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188337

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
(minus that extra space)

Zara thank you sooo much for all your editing help and creative suggestions. You rock!

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone
Chapter Nine, The Halloween.

Halloween comes to Hogwarts. Harry gets a gift from Professor McGonagall during the next Owl delivery, the gift being a broomstick, which makes Draco Malfoy unhappy. Harry gets his first Quidditch introduction from Oliver Wood, who is impressed with Harry's skill and thinks that Gryffindor is going to win Quidditch Cup this year.

Harry starts to like his lessons more and more, he thinks they became more interesting after they mastered the basics. During the Charms class when they are practicing how to make objects fly, Hermione annoys Ron by correcting his pronunciation of Wingardium Leviosa and Ron snaps at her. Hermione runs out upset to cry in the bathroom. In fact she is so upset that she misses the next class. When students start The Halloween feast, panicky Professor Quirrell informs them all that a troll is in Hogwarts. That spreads panic untill Dumbledore shuts everybody up and tells prefects to get the students back to their respective dormitories. 
Harry and Ron decide to go catch the troll, because they realize that Hermione does not know about the troll. Their quick thinking results in locking the troll in the girls' bathroom. Their even quicker thinking then results in realizing that Hermione is in fact there and they have no choice but to go help her.

They in fact manage to enter the bathroom and have a heroic battle with the troll, when they all act in tandem, save each other, help each other and one of the best friendship ever is born. Hermione even lies to a teacher to cover for Ron and Harry.



1.	Which sports rules did you find easier to understand: Quidditch or Baseball?

2.	What special circumstances about her getting Harry a broom did McGonagall share with Flitwick in your opinion?


3.	We are shown Trevor zooming around the class in Charms, does that mean that kids' pets are allowed in the classrooms if kids so desire?

4.	We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but feel that they have no other choice. What does this say about their characters or any characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?


5.	Do you believe that fighting a troll could be a good start for great friendship?

6.	When Ron hears Hermione scream after she is locked in with the Troll, he is described turning "pale as the Bloody Baron". What if anything does it mean to you?

Zara's question:
7.	We now know Snape agreed to help Dumbledore protect *Harry*. What, in your opinion, explains his extra efforts to protect the Philosopher's Stone, as in  this chapter, when he sees through Quirrell's ruse and checks on the third-floor corridor rather than going into the dungeons with the other teachers?

8. Please feel free to add your own question.




NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 11, The Quidditch, on November 10,
2009.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion,
please
contact drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).


Alla




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  3 04:52:11 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 04:52:11 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcoctr+nru6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188338

> 2.	What special circumstances about her getting Harry a broom did McGonagall share with Flitwick in your opinion?

Joey: 

Harry's naturally exceptional flying skills which need recognition and encouragement; Gryffindor's inability to find a seeker yet and necessity to find one.

> 4.	We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but feel that they have no other choice. What does this say about their characters or any characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?

Joey: 

That they are brave, reckless and caring.

> 5.	Do you believe that fighting a troll could be a good start for great friendship?

Joey: 

Depends on the people involved, IMO. For example, I'm not sure how things would have shaped up had it been Malfoy or Pansy Parkinson instead of Hermione. If I were there in the incident then yes, I think I would develop a strong bond with the other person.

> 
> 6.	When Ron hears Hermione scream after she is locked in with the Troll, he is described turning "pale as the Bloody Baron". What if anything does it mean to you?

Joey: 

That he is a kind-hearted kid.

> 
> Zara's question:
> 7.	We now know Snape agreed to help Dumbledore protect *Harry*. What, in your opinion, explains his extra efforts to protect the Philosopher's Stone, as in  this chapter, when he sees through Quirrell's ruse and checks on the third-floor corridor rather than going into the dungeons with the other teachers?
> 

Joey: 

His commitment to his word and his alert mind.

Nice questions!

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Nov  3 07:36:39 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:36:39 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?  - The West Country
In-Reply-To: <hcnvbo+eest@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcomi7+qjpm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188339

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> >
> > ...
> > 
> > But to get back on topic. Harry's parents James and Lily were
> > killed at Godric's Hollow. There was a lot of discussion on 
> > this topic a few years back in which it was suggested that 
> > the village was in South Wales which would tie in with 
> > Hagrid's flight path.

> > However, since then, other information has surfaced, to wit:
 
> > '"... Most celebrated of these half-magical dwelling places 
> > is, perhaps, Godric's Hollow, the West Country village
> > ..."' (DH "Godric's Hollow" p.261 UK edition)
 
> > ...

> > However, it is feasible that Hagrid may have steered 
> > sufficiently far north, five or six miles or so, to be 
> > skirting the southern suburbs of Bristol. Bristol is an 
> > extensive city. ...

bboyminn: 
> Well, "West Country" covers a lot of area, I suspect Bristol
> itself would be considered 'West Country'. Next does 'West
> Country' refer to England itself, or would Wales be included
> in the 'West Country'? 

Geoff:
To a Brit, there is a subtle distinction between "West Country" 
and "South West". The latter tends to cover Devon and Cornwall, 
while "West Country" would be approximately east of those 
counties up to a line linking Bristol to the eastern border of 
Dorset around the Bournemouth area.

Wales would most certainly NOT be included. The "West Country" 
is also often referred to as the "West of England".
 
bboyminn: 
> I get the impression that Neville's Grandmother lives in 
> the North 'country'. Though I may only think that because
> Matt Lewis, who plays Neville in the movies, live north
> of London. 

Geoff:
Matthew comes from Leeds which is about 200 miles north of 
London.

bboyminn:  
> Also, keep in mind that Hagrid is flying, so he could be MANY
> miles from Bristol and still see it clearly. As he flew over
> or near, it would be the largest local landmark that could be
> seen at night. So, Hagrid could have been 20 to 30 miles 
> away (perhaps even 50 miles away) in any direction and still 
> could have said he flew over Bristol. 

> I suspect, as you seem to imply, that like many modern cities
> the Bristol metropolitan area is huge compared to the city of
> Bristol itself. This is even true of London. The REAL London
> is just one small section in the center of a much larger city. 
> The larger space we call London, is not really London at all, 
> but a collection of what we would now call suburbs that spread 
> out for many many miles in all directions. 
> 
> So, again, Hagrid could have been 30 miles or more from Bristol
> proper, and he would have still said he flew over Bristol. 

Geoff:
I think that you are perhaps looking at our geography from maps 
and not as we see it on the ground.

I live just over 50 miles from Bristol. If an aircraft flew over our area, 
no way would it be described as being "over" Bristol. Although Bristol 
is the main regional centre in that direction, it is nowhere as widespread 
as London and is perhaps no more than 8 miles or so across.

London, as you say, is interpreted in many ways. You have the 
administrative CIty of London which houses the Bank of England and other 
parts of the financial sector and is often referred to as the "Square Mile'. 
there is the old LCC area which was the administrative area of London from 
1889-1965 and the modern Greater London which was created at this
 point. (It was this change which puts Little Whinging in Surrey).
One rule of thumb which is often used by us Brits is to consider 
London as the area within the M25 London Orbital motorway which lies 
about 15-20 miles from the centre of the city.

I lived in London for 45 years and saw many of these changes occurred as 
I grew up and worked in the area.

bboyminn: 
> He could have been across from Bristol in Southern Wales. I
> think JKR used to live in that area. They could have moved him
> to safety in Ireland. Though that is a long flight. Or Hagrid
> could have been flying from the near North or South, and simply
> turned east near Bristol in order to reach Northern Surrey. 

Geoff:
She was born in Chipping Sodbury, to the east of Bristol and lived 
in Tutshill which is very clsose to the Welsh border on the little 
strip of England which lies on the west bank of the Severn but 
never quite in Wales.

bboyminn: 
> Still, I don't think this will ever be more than pure 
> speculation. 





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  3 19:43:38 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:43:38 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcq15a+ibk9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188340


> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone
> Chapter Nine, The Halloween.
><snip summary>
> 1.	Which sports rules did you find easier to understand: Quidditch or Baseball?

Carol responds:
Baseball is the only sport, aside from volleyball, that I can understand and the only one that I enjoy watching. Go, Yankees! Quidditch would bore me to tears even though the rules are extremely simple. I'd feel as it the Chasers and other players were just filling in time till a Seeker caught the Snitch, ending and in most cases winning the game. I'm sure someone will remind me that the points determining the House Quidditch champion team are cumulative, so the Chasers' points do matter, but that wouldn't make me any more interested in a sport that's simultaneously dangerous and, IMO, boring.
> 
> 2.	What special circumstances about her getting Harry a broom did McGonagall share with Flitwick in your opinion?

Carol responds:
Since he knows that McG gave Harry a (very expensive) broom, she must have told him the whole "exciting" story of Harry's being rewarded rather than punished for disobeying Madam Hooch (making Flitwick complicit in McG's rule "bending"). (I guess that makes clear how I feel about the whole incident.(
> 
> 3.	We are shown Trevor zooming around the class in Charms, does that mean that kids' pets are allowed in the classrooms if kids so desire?

Carol responds:
I'm sure that the teachers wouldn't allow cats or owls in their classrooms. Maybe toads are an exception because they can be carried in a pocket or a hat. Trevor, in any case, doesn't seem to have a cage. Neville carries him everywhere. If I were Snape, I'd have banned Trevor from Potions considering how easily he could hop into a cauldron and drown or worse. As for sending him zooming around the classroom, I suppose that's better than turning hedgehogs into pincushions or Vanishing mice and kittens. The whole WW seems remarkably unconcerned about the welfare of animals.
> 
> 4.	We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but feel that they have no other choice. What does this say about their characters or any characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?

Carol:
I think they're reacting exactly as we would expect them to act--doing the right thing even though they're scared, especially since it's their fault that Hermione is locked in with the Troll. They're the good guys, after all. (BTW, I think this is the first instance of Harry's "saving people thing.")

Rhetorical question: What were the teachers thinking when they left a key in the door of a girls' restroom? Imagine a few rowdy boys thinking that it would be funny to lock some little first-year girls in there! (In the U.S., most doors lock from the *inside*. Apparently it's still possible in Britain to lock a kid in his room, as Vernon does to Harry. Can't do that here, and, anyway, you'd get in trouble with Child Protective Services if you did.)
> 
> 
> 5.	Do you believe that fighting a troll could be a good start for great friendship?

Carol:
Hm. That's outside my experience. :-) But, yes; the boys saved Hermione and she lied to a teacher in return, taking the blame for the whole incident to save them from detention. I'd say they're off to a good start as friends. OTOH, Harry saves Draco's life later with no such consequences. I think the fact that they're all so young has something to do with it, and the worst thing the boys can say of Hermione is that she's a know-it-all--not sufficient reason to dislike her under the circumstances. As for Hermione, she's lonely and not good at making friends, so I think she welcomed the opportunity to form a close friendship. Besides, she probably already liked Ron.
> 
> 6.	When Ron hears Hermione scream after she is locked in with the Troll, he is described turning "pale as the Bloody Baron". What if anything does it mean to you?

Carol:
I've never even thought about it, but I suppose the ghosts are a whitish silver. They're not so much transparent (like clear glass) as translucent (like lightly frosted glass). You can see through them, but you can see them. And after all, "pale as a ghost" already exists as a description/simile in English. Why the narrator chose the Bloody Baron in particular, I don't know. But, then, I've never known how people could tell that the silvery drops spattered on him are blood. 

BTW, NHN describes the Baron as "groaning and clanking on the Astronomy Tower" (HBP) and the Grey Lady mentions the Baron's chains, but how can ghostly chains clank, how can he fly if he wears them, and how did he get put in chains in the first place if he killed himself immediately after killing her?
> 
> Zara's question:
> 7.	We now know Snape agreed to help Dumbledore protect *Harry*. What, in your opinion, explains his extra efforts to protect the Philosopher's Stone, as in  this chapter, when he sees through Quirrell's ruse and checks on the third-floor corridor rather than going into the dungeons with the other teachers?

Carol:
Well, we know that he's suspicious of Quirrell even before DD tells him to keep an eye on him. He must suspect that Quirrell used the Troll as a diversion so that he could try to get through the door. So instead of going after the diversion, he goes after the man he suspects to be out to steal the Stone--and most likely, working for Voldemort. Snape's loyalties lie with Dumbledore against LV, he's sworn to protect Harry (and LV's getting the Stone would be bad for Harry, and he may well want to thwart Quirrell for personal reasons as well. If you want to catch a criminal, it helps to be an ex-criminal (ex-DE) yourself.

At any rate, I think his chief motivation at this point is simply thwarting Voldemort and his henchman. Certainly, it has nothing to do with saving Harry to get even with James. Harry at this point is not in danger as far as Snape knows. Of course, once he's caught Quirrell, he apparently makes Quirrell come with him to help subdue the Troll, at which point he finds out about HRH.

Carol, now wondering at what point Snape tries (for whatever reason) to get past Fluffy since his leg appear to be injured on Halloween night




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  3 19:52:19 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:52:19 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hcn2eb+40v0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcq1lj+56lb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188341


Carol:

More precisely, Gryffindor supposedly hasn't won a Quidditch match for seven years as of SS/PS (and again, seven years as of PoA!), yet the "legendary Charlie Weasley" who "could have played for England" was Gryffindor's Seeker for several years, perhaps as many as six, and one of the Twins, IIRC, says in SS/PS, "We haven't won since Charlie left."
 
All well and good if Charlie is considerably older than his next brother, Percy, and has been out of school for seven years as of SS/PS, but JKR has Bill, who is two years older than Charlie, remark in GoF that he's only been out of Hogwarts for five years, and JKR said in an interview that Charlie was two years older than Percy, which she later changed to three years when someone pointed out that he'd have been at Hogwarts the previous year (when Harry and Ron were ten) if that were the case.

So either Charlie is about nine years older than Percy (and Bill is eleven years older) or the stint as Seeker of "the legendary Charlie Weasley" exactly coincides with the seven years that Gryffindor *lost* the Quidditch Cup to Slytherin.

Janelle:
The "Charlie Weasley problem" has bugged me, too.  A while ago I made a timeline based on what is said in the books themselves (it's helped me work out lots of little mysteries!) and this is what I've discovered for sure about this one, followed by some assumptions made based off of those facts:

*Slytherin won the HOUSE cup in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, and 1991
    ("Slytherins have got the cup for six years in a row!"(SS-124))
    ("The idea of overtaking Slytherin in the house championship was wonderful, no one had done it for seven years"(SS-221))
*Gryffindor wins the HOUSE cup in 1992 (The end of Harry's first year), 1993, and 1994

*Slytherin won the QUIDDITCH Cup in 1991
     ("flattened in that last match by Slytherin"(SS-152))
*Gryffindor won the QUIDDITCH Cup in 1986- when Charlie Weasley was on the team, and in 1994 (The end of Harry's third year)
     ("Gryffindor hasn't won for seven years now"(CS-143))
     ("We haven't won since Charlie left"(SS-153))
    
Who won the Quidditch cup in all the other years when Slytherin won the house cup is not specified other than not being Gryffindor.

>From those dates it's clear that Charlie's last year at Hogwarts had to have been 1986, which means that his first year was 1979 (assuming that he attended all 7 years)

Now, we know from their birth dates on their gravestone that James and Lily would have started at Hogwarts in 1971 and ended in 1978.  Since no mention is ever made of Bill having ever met them- I'm assuming that he must've started school after they left.  For that to be true, however, Bill would have had to start school in the fall of 1978, the school year immediately following James and Lily's last, which would make Bill only a year ahead of Charlie in school.

Percy didn't start school until 1987, so he was never at school with Bill or Charlie which makes both of them significantly older than him.  This is the only logical explanation given what we know from canon.

As far as Bill saying he left five years ago as of 1995, I want to point out that he doesn't say that's when he left school- he says: "'Haven't seen this place for five years'"(GOF-616).  That puts his last visit to Hogwarts back in 1990- maybe to visit Percy and/or the twins, who were all students there at that time?

Sorry if this is confusing- just trying to point out the timeline according to canon- not according to what Jo says in interviews.  We all know that there's no way those comments are ever going to make sense!





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Nov  3 21:22:55 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:22:55 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcq6vf+si3a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188342

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> 1.	Which sports rules did you find easier to understand: Quidditch or Baseball?

Geoff: 
No contest, Quidditch. It's even easier than cricket.
:-)

> 2.	What special circumstances about her getting Harry a broom did McGonagall share with Flitwick in your opinion?

Geoff:
I would imagine the same that she shared with Oliver Wood when 
she introduced him to Harry:

'"...we'll have to get him a decent broom, Professor - a Nimbus Two 
Thousand or a Cleansweep Seven, I'd say."

"I shall speak to Professor Dumbledore and see if we can't bend the 
the first-year rule. Heaven knows, we need a better team than last 
year. Flattened in that last match by Slytherin. I couldn't look Severus 
Snape in the face for weeks."'
(PS "The Midnight Duel" p.113 UK edition)

> 3.	We are shown Trevor zooming around the class in Charms, does that mean that kids' pets are allowed in the classrooms if kids so desire?

Geoff:
I don't think it depended on the kids. Canon is rather interesting:

'Even better, Professor Flitwick announced in Charms that he thought 
they were ready to start making objects fly, something they had all 
been dying to try since they'd seen him make Neville's toad zoom
around the classroom.'
(ibid. p.126)

This, to me, implies that perhaps he had invited someone to bring a 
pet and chosen Neville.

 
> 5.	Do you believe that fighting a troll could be a good start for great friendship?

Geoff:
Not necessarily, but in this case it did.

> 6.	When Ron hears Hermione scream after she is locked in with the Troll, he is described turning "pale as the Bloody Baron". What if anything does it mean to you?

Geoff:
Sounds like a variation on going "as white as a ghost" or "as white as a sheet".







From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Nov  3 21:37:57 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:37:57 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcq15a+ibk9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcq7rl+s3j2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188343

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> BTW, NHN describes the Baron as "groaning and clanking on the Astronomy Tower" (HBP) and the Grey Lady mentions the Baron's chains, but how can ghostly chains clank, how can he fly if he wears them, and how did he get put in chains in the first place if he killed himself immediately after killing her?

Geoff:
The following came to mind and I wondered whether this might also 
have occurred to JKR when she was planning the stories. It would 
answer your question:

"At this the spirit raised a frightful cry, and shook its chain with such 
a dismal and appalling noise, that Scrooge held on tight to his chair, 
to save himself from falling in a swoon.
......

Again the spectre raised a cry, and shook its chain and wrung its 
shadowy hands.
"You are fettered," said Scrooge, trembling.  "Tell me why?"
"I wear the chain I forged in life," replied the Ghost. "I made it link 
by link, and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of 
my own free will I wore it." 

(From "A Christmas Carol" "Stave One: Marley's Ghost" by Charles 
Dickens)





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  3 23:18:22 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:18:22 -0000
Subject: the Charlie Weasley problem (Was: Under age magic - just wondering?)
In-Reply-To: <hcq1lj+56lb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcqdnu+h4jp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188344

Carol earlier:
> 
> More precisely, Gryffindor supposedly hasn't won a Quidditch match for seven years as of SS/PS (and again, seven years as of PoA!), yet the "legendary Charlie Weasley" who "could have played for England" was Gryffindor's Seeker for several years, perhaps as many as six, and one of the Twins, IIRC, says in SS/PS, "We haven't won since Charlie left."
>  
> All well and good if Charlie is considerably older than his next brother, Percy, and has been out of school for seven years as of SS/PS, but JKR has Bill, who is two years older than Charlie, remark in GoF that he's only been out of Hogwarts for five years, and JKR said in an interview that Charlie was two years older than Percy, which she later changed to three years when someone pointed out that he'd have been at Hogwarts the previous year (when Harry and Ron were ten) if that were the case.
> 
> So either Charlie is about nine years older than Percy (and Bill is eleven years older) or the stint as Seeker of "the legendary Charlie Weasley" exactly coincides with the seven years that Gryffindor *lost* the Quidditch Cup to Slytherin.
> 
> Janelle:
> The "Charlie Weasley problem" has bugged me, too.  A while ago I made a timeline based on what is said in the books themselves (it's helped me work out lots of little mysteries!) and this is what I've discovered for sure about this one, followed by some assumptions made based off of those facts:
> 
<snip>
> 
> *Slytherin won the QUIDDITCH Cup in 1991 ("flattened in that last match by Slytherin"(SS-152)) *Gryffindor won the QUIDDITCH Cup in 1986- when Charlie Weasley was on the team, and in 1994 (The end of Harry's third year) ("Gryffindor hasn't won for seven years now"(CS-143))  ("We haven't won since Charlie left"(SS-153))
>
<snip>
> From those dates it's clear that Charlie's last year at Hogwarts had to have been 1986, which means that his first year was 1979 (assuming that he attended all 7 years)

<snip>
> Percy didn't start school until 1987, so he was never at school with Bill or Charlie which makes both of them significantly older than him.  This is the only logical explanation given what we know from canon.
> 
> As far as Bill saying he left five years ago as of 1995, I want to point out that he doesn't say that's when he left school- he says: "'Haven't seen this place for five years'"(GOF-616).  That puts his last visit to Hogwarts back in 1990- maybe to visit Percy and/or the twins, who were all students there at that time?
> 
> Sorry if this is confusing- just trying to point out the timeline according to canon- not according to what Jo says in interviews.  We all know that there's no way those comments are ever going to make sense!
>
Carol responds:

The thing is, though, that JKR *does* state that Charlie is only three years older than Percy (changed from two years), an age that would fit with Bill's having left Hogwarts five years before the QWT. with Fleur's attraction to Bill (which would be fine if she's, say, eighteen and he's twenty-three but odd if he's eleven years older than Percy (two years older than Charlie, who's nine years older than Percy by this timeline), which would make him about twenty-eight and Bill about thirty at the end of GoF. It would also make Bill thirty-two at the end of HBP, which makes the distinction between Lupin (age thirty-seven) and Bill in HBP rather stretched "Young and whole men do not always remain so")--JKR seems to be thinking of Bill here as no more than twenty-five (as he would be if he left Hogwarts at eighteen seven years earlier).

So, in JKR's mind (as opposed to what makes sense regarding Quidditch ("We haven't won since Charlie left" and "Gryffindor hasn't won the Quidditch Cup for seven years") Charlie is three years older than Percy and Bill five years older than Percy. But on paper, based on Quidditch, Charlie has to be nine years older than Percy and Bill eleven.

You're assuming that Charlie was on the team when Gryffindor last won the Quidditch Cup, which would be 1984 by my calculations (1991, when the characters are speaking, though the final match won't be until 1992, minus seven), but the only indication that he was on the team (aside from all the praise of his abilities) is "We haven't won since Charlie left."

I think--and no one needs to agree with me--that JKR is thinking of the seven years Charlie was in school as the *same* seven years that Quidditch did not win the Quidditch Cup, which would mean that he had just left Hogwarts the year before and is three years older than Percy (who was a fourth year when Charlie, by this calculation, was in seventh). She doesn't seem to realize that Charlie needs to have been a seventh year seven years before for her timeline to work.

Let me double-check my math. If Charlie left school seven years earlier, Percy (who's fifteen at the beginning of SS/PS would have been eight years old at the beginning of that year and nine or close to it at the end, so, assuming that Charlie left at eighteen and Percy is nine, that's nine years difference, plus two years for Bill equals eleven years difference.

Now that's a really big spread between kids when all the others are a year or two apart. 

Anyway, I think that JKR gets an idea into her head (e.g., Draco has the Hand of Glory and Harry and Ron know about it) and doesn't check to see whether canon fits this idea. I think that's what happened with Charlie Weasley.

I won't even go into the ages of the older Weasleys except to say that attending Hogwarts at a time before Hagrid was gamekeeper does not fit with their getting married during VW1. The dates for DD's becoming headmaster are also contradictory--either it was right before Lupin attended school or it was before MWPP and Snape were even born when LV came to Hogwarts to apply for the DADA position.

Carol, who thinks that JKR has mastered what Orwell called "double-think" (I can't think of the other name for it), the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time and believe them both 




From brian at rescueddoggies.com  Mon Nov  2 15:27:21 2009
From: brian at rescueddoggies.com (Brian)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 12:27:21 -0300
Subject: graduation and respect for British culture
Message-ID: <4AEEFA59.7000507@rescueddoggies.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188345

Replying to
 > Posted by: "Catlady (Rita Prince"  catlady at wicca.net     
catlady_de_los_angeles
Sun Nov 1, 2009 2:02 pm (PST)
 > Yes, but British wizard culture is not exactly the same as British 
>muggle culture, and Hogwarts is a unique institution. It was founded >at 
>a time when there were no universities in Britain or Western Europe, >and 
>I don't think there were any schools not associated with >monasteries, 
>and Hogwarts must have awarded its own qualifications (degrees, 
>diplomas) for the centuries before OWLs and NEWTs were invented, so >it 
>may have had graduation and degree-granting ceremonies before 
>universities did.


OWLS and NEWTS are clearly based on the English O and A levels, the 
Muggle exams taken at the end of the 5th and 7th years in Secondary 
school (around ages 16 and 18 respectively, the end of the fifth and 
seventh year of secondary school - note YEAR NOT GRADE).
In Half Blood Prince, nobody received their OWL results until halfway 
through the summer holidays (vacation)
That is exactly what happens with O and A level results.
If you don't receive your results until a month AFTER you've left school 
HOW can you have a graduation?  You don't know if you've passed anything!
In Britain there is no "all or nothing" graduation.  You leave school at 
16 or 17 with however many O and/or A levels you have passed.  (I say 
"leave school... with", but as stated earlier, you don't get the results 
until later, after you've left.)

In addition, even though Percy finished school at Hogwarts there isn't a 
SINGLE mention of him "graduating", nor is the term used at any time 
throughout the seven books.  Can you imagine Molly never mentioning it?  
Not once?
Can you imagine Hermione NEVER mentioning once how the education system 
was different from the Muggle system in such an important way?
Note that Hogwarts has a HEADMASTER (UK style) NOT a Principal.

There is no reason whatsoever to suggest that Hogwarts has a 
graduation.  To impose an American institution on a British school 
without firm evidence that it existed and simply because nowhere does it 
explicitly say that there is no graduation (why would it?) is simply 
cultural disrepect.

My brief page on British culture and language explained for non-Brits is 
at www.thesiteofbrian.com/cultural.  As far as language differences go, 
there are also many pages on wikipedia  about this.

At the moment the main characters in my own latest fanfic (Harmony Bond) 
are in the USA for a while.  I take the trouble to make it as real as 
possible by not only researching online, but asking Americans to check 
each chapter, and where possible obtaining help from Americans actually 
in the area where the characters are supposed to be.  That's because I 
refuse to impose Britishisms on the US because I have respect for YOUR 
culture.  Is it so difficult for so many Americans to show us the same 
respect and take the trouble to at least avoid the most basic 
Americanisms and stop trying to justify the unjustifiable?
I have to admit that I did include one stereotypical "evil American" 
obsessed with money.  He's the librarian Warner's brother.  Warner's 
brother, of course, is so called out of "respect" for a certain media 
company.  (I couldn't resist.)

Incidentally, ignoring British culture can even mean you use words which 
are possibly offensive in British English.  For example "fanny", as in 
fanny-pack, does not refer to a person's "behind" as in US English, but 
a woman's vagina, thus the equivalent term for "fanny-pack" is 
"bum-bag", "bum" being roughly the British equivalent to the American 
"fanny".

Brian (brigrove on fanfiction.net)







From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 03:05:32 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:05:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcqr1s+cvv3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188346

 CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone Chapter Nine: Halloween

1. Which sports rules did you find easier to understand: Quidditch or Baseball?

Janelle: 
haha interesting question- definitely Quidditch!  Although I understand the general rules to baseball, that game has a lot of little rules that I don't always understand- probably because I don't closely follow the game.  There is one thing that I wanted to point out about Quidditch because the seemingly pointlessness of all players other than the Seeker seems to be coming up a lot lately.  True, in the Quidditch matches we see the team whose seeker gets the Snitch usually wins.  The only exception is the one *professional* game that we see.  I think that the school-league games that we see, just like with baseball and such in the Muggle world, do not measure up to the professional leagues.  I think it's likely that professional matches are often much higher scoring and that the possibility of catching the snitch and not winning isn't quite as far fetched.

2. What special circumstances about her getting Harry a broom did McGonagall share with Flitwick in your opinion?

Janelle:
Along the same lines as what others have said, I think that McGonagall simply filled Flitwick in on what was going on: Harry's become Gryffindor's new seeker, I had to arrange for him to get a broomstick even though he's only a first year, etc.  I've always had the impression that McGonagall and Flitwick are on friendly terms (probably partially due to their going to the Three Broomsticks together in Harry's third year) and I think that she filled him in the way that colleagues and friends would.

3. We are shown Trevor zooming around the class in Charms, does that mean that kids' pets are allowed in the classrooms if kids so desire?

Janelle:
I don't think that pets would be allowed in the classrooms- I think it probably has more to do with Neville's tendency to lose Trevor.  Trevor had probably gotten into Neville's bag, then gotten out during Charms class.  Perhaps Flitwick's flying him across the room wasn't a planned demonstration, but more like grabbing a fleeing toad and sending him back to his owner, the kids thought it was cool and so were excited to learn how to make objects fly.

4. We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but feel that they have no other choice. What does this say about their characters or any characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?

Janelle:
I have to agree with what everyone has already written about this one, but I also have something to add.  This situation shows that Harry and Ron are good people.  First, they risk getting into trouble (again) to go find Hermione and warn her about the troll.  Then, once they realize that they've locked the troll in a room with her, there's no way that they would just leave her to fend for herself.  

I think what this question is really asking, though, is what you think about a character who has thoughts like "I don't want to do this" run through their mind and then do it anyway.  I think it's important to note that Harry and Ron didn't stand there thinking "I don't really want to fight this troll."  I don't have my book close at hand, but I'm pretty sure that the line goes something like this: "even though it was the last thing they wanted to do, they had no choice, they had to help Hermione."  This isn't saying that they don't want to help Hermione- that's what they set out to do- what they did *not* set out to do was fight a troll.

5. Do you believe that fighting a troll could be a good start for great friendship?

Janelle:
I definitely think that it can be the start of a great friendship, but not that it necessarily will.  It's way more than just the fact that they fight a troll together, but the way that it happens.  First, Harry and Ron go searching for Hermione- even when they're the reason she's upset and hiding in the bathroom to begin with.  Next, they help each other to beat the troll.  Then Hermione lies to the teachers, no small gesture for her, to protect Ron and Harry (even though I don't really understand why they couldn't just tell the truth about what happened, but that's beside the point...).  This is such a bonding experience for them because of the ways in which they help each other through it.

7. We now know Snape agreed to help Dumbledore protect *Harry*. What, in your opinion, explains his extra efforts to protect the Philosopher's Stone, as in  this chapter, when he sees through Quirrell's ruse and checks on the third-floor corridor rather than going into the dungeons with the other teachers?

Janelle:
It's hard to say without knowing exactly how much Snape knows about what's going on.  We know that he knows about the Stone because he's already helped set up its protection- so we know he's helping Dumbledore to keep the Stone safe, so I guess the question is who he thinks he's keeping it safe from.  Did Dumbledore confide in him that he thought Voldemort was behind it?  IIRC, during the Prince's Tale we find out that Dumbledore told Snape to keep an eye on Quirrell, but he doesn't say anything about Voldemort's involvement.  I guess I think that Dumbledore might not have told him, but that Snape knew, or at least suspected, and put in the extra effort to thwart Voldemort.  Let's keep in mind that protecting Harry is not the only reason that Snape has to fight Voldemort- Voldemort killed Lily which, for Snape, is motivation enough to want him finished.




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 03:15:03 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:15:03 -0000
Subject: graduation and respect for British culture
In-Reply-To: <4AEEFA59.7000507@rescueddoggies.com>
Message-ID: <hcqrjn+srb2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188347

Brian: 
There is no reason whatsoever to suggest that Hogwarts has a 
graduation.  To impose an American institution on a British school 
without firm evidence that it existed and simply because nowhere does it explicitly say that there is no graduation (why would it?) is simply cultural disrepect.

Janelle:
I just want to point out that, personally, I think this is taking things a little too far.  Questioning whether or not Hogwarts has a graduation ceremony and wondering how the school might differ from tradition British schools is not necessarily "cultural disprespect."  No one ever said that there is anything wrong with not having a graduation ceremony.  Many Americans (myself included) probably didn't even know that British schools don't have them, and assumed that they did because they are such a large part of our culture.  Not knowing everything about British culture doesn't make us disrespectful.  Wondering about aspects of our culture that are missing from the books doesn't make us disrespectful.  One of the great things about this list is that we can learn about these differences in a respectful way and not be ridiculed for not being familiar with something.  JMO.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Nov  4 03:57:34 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:57:34 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcqu3e+vt0j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188348

 
> Alla
>
>>1.Which sports rules did you find easier to understand: Quidditch or Baseball?
Potioncat:
I paid about the same amount of attention to each
none at all.

> 
> 2.What special circumstances about her getting Harry a broom did McGonagall share with Flitwick in your opinion?
Potioncat:
I think McGonagall must have used the precedent of 100 years ago--allowing a first year on the team. I don't remember (having paid very little attention to Quidditch) whether the team members have to supply their own brooms (even if it means borrowing a Hogwarts broom), or if the team has its own supply of brooms. I know next year Malfoy will buy brooms for the entire Slytherin team. It also isn't clear to me where the broom came from, but it appears to be from McGonagall. Keep in mind, she isn't giving Harry the broom because she has any particular affection for Harry, rather that she wants to win at Quidditch. So the Head of House is providing a broom for a Gryffindor team member. This is a special broom for a special position.

I suspect all the Heads know that Harry will be allowed on the Gryffindor team and that a broom will be provided for his use. I'm not sure they know the quality of the broom, and I'm sure Snape will be livid.  The main reason I think so, is that something has to be done to allow a 1st year to play and I would think the competitors would need to be aware for it to be legit.

I want to address a point Carol made. Hooch threatened expulsion to any student who got on a broom while she was gone. So Harry should have been punished rather than being rewarded by getting to play Quidditch. I used to agree with Carol's point of view.

But now I see it differently. First, I'm not convinced Madam Hooch was serious about the consequence but was exaggerating--something like, "you'll be in detention for the rest of your life"; it sounds like Snape and his (empty) threats of expulsion.  Second, I don't think she has the authority to expel a student. We know that the Head of Slytherin doesn't have the authority to expel a non-Slytherin, and Hooch isn't a Head of House. Third, if Harry were to be expelled, so would Draco. I'm sure no one at Hogwarts really wants either of those boys expelled. Fourth, McGonagall did not hear Hooch make the threat. Perhaps Hooch is just as excited to learn about a new Quidditch star and forgot all about her own threat, and never told McGonagall.

None of the Gryffindors would remind anyone that Harry should be punished. Draco doesn't risk bringing it up because he'd likely be on the train with Harry. So while Harry does avoid punishment, I don't think McGonagall intentionally undermined Hooch.

> 
> 
> 3.We are shown Trevor zooming around the class in Charms, does that mean that kids' pets are allowed in the classrooms if kids so desire?

Potioncat:
I don't think we ever see any pet but Trevor in the classroom. So I agree with an earlier post that Trevor was in class by accident. 

> 
> 4.We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but feel that they have no other choice. What does this say about their characters or any characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?

Potioncat:
That's what courage is: doing the right thing even when you're afraid. I think this passage reinforced the nature of Ron's and Harry's courage.

> 
> 
> 5.Do you believe that fighting a troll could be a good start for great friendship?

Potioncat:
Well, there are other ways I'd rather use to start a friendship, but going through adversity together can lead to strong friendships.

> 
> 6.When Ron hears Hermione scream after she is locked in with the Troll, he is described turning "pale as the Bloody Baron". What if anything does it mean to you?

Potioncat:
In this case, it seems to show that Ron realizes the grave danger Hermione is in, and that he is responsible to some degree. For some reason it reminds me of two other characters. It reminds me a little of Snape's reaction when he hears a student has been taken to the Chamber. It also reminds me of James, going in to save Severus.


> 
> Zara's question:
> 7.We now know Snape agreed to help Dumbledore protect *Harry*. What, in your opinion, explains his extra efforts to protect the Philosopher's Stone, as in this chapter, when he sees through Quirrell's ruse and checks on the third-floor corridor rather than going into the dungeons with the other teachers?

Potioncat:
I think he is already DD's man. I assume Snape knows what is being hidden, but he may not know why. He knows to keep an eye on Quirrell and that may be enough. I seem to remember that we'll find out that Quirrell is really very good with trolls and didn't he provide a troll to protect the stone? (I haven't read ahead.) So both Snape and DD should have been suspicious at Quirrell's reaction to the troll.


My question:
"All Neville cared about was never going near the dog again." What do you think about Neville at this point? Are we being misled into thinking he lacks courage?

Thanks, Alla, for the discussion. Very good questions.




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 05:02:54 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (gav_fiji)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:02:54 -0000
Subject: graduation and respect for British culture
In-Reply-To: <hcqrjn+srb2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcr1tu+3jjp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188349

> Catlady:
> ... Hogwarts is a unique institution. It was founded at
> a time when there were no universities in Britain or 
> Western Europe, 

Goddlefrood:

Well, the French and Italians might dispute that. Perhaps 
some on the Iberian peninsula too. It's only a minor quibble 
the main answer will follow soon enough.

> Catlady
> Hogwarts must have awarded its own qualifications (degrees,
> diplomas) for the centuries before OWLs and NEWTs were 
> invented, so it may have had graduation and degree-granting 
> ceremonies before universities did.

Goddlefrood:

Possibly, although based on what is in the books it is very 
difficult to say with any certainty. There have been many 
interesting theories over the years about what Hogwarts was 
and how it developed. It may have simply been a place for 
keeping the young wizard about town off the street and away 
from Muggles for a good part of its existence. There aren't 
all that many wizards altogether now, and there would have 
been fewer and fewer the longer back one goes.

To illustrate - it has been worked out that the population 
of England at the time Lawrence Sterne wrote The Life and 
Opinions of Tristram Shandy was about 8 million. Today the 
population of England has reached about 55 million. That's 
a nine fold increase, or thereabouts. Extrapolating backward 
to the mid-eighteenth century would lead to a reasonable 
conclusion that the student body of Hogwarts at that time 
might have been around a hundred.

Going back earlier would suggest that Hogwarts might have 
started out with only a handful of students. The fewer the 
number of students as one progresses back through the 
centuries, the less likelihood that any formal qualification 
at all was given to witches and wizards, who would have been 
in short enough supply that anything they might turn their 
hand to would have few practitioners in it.

A graduation ceremony for a handful of students would be unlikely, 
possible, but unlikely. The wizarding world of the UK is similar 
enough to the Muggle world of the UK to suggest that any traditions 
of one would be adopted by, or at least influence, the other. Due 
to that, coupled with a zero mention of any graduation in the books, 
I would find it extraordinarily unlikely that Hogwarts has any kind 
of graduation ceremony. Although Napoleon and Sherlock may differ.

> Brian: 
> There is no reason whatsoever to suggest that Hogwarts has a 
> graduation.

Goddlefrood:

There's certainly nothing to go on. However, to suggest cultural imperialism for our cousins across the pond (for me a slightly 
bigger one than the Atlantic) or up the peninsula, is a little 
hard to fathom for this former denizen of the benighted isles.

Toodle pip





From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Nov  4 16:54:10 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:54:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcq15a+ibk9@eGroups.com>
References: <hcq15a+ibk9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4AF1B1B2.9020007@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188350

Carol responds:
> Baseball is the only sport, aside from volleyball, that I can understand and the only one that I enjoy watching. Go, Yankees! Quidditch would bore me to tears even though the rules are extremely simple. I'd feel as it the Chasers and other players were just filling in time till a Seeker caught the Snitch, ending and in most cases winning the game. I'm sure someone will remind me that the points determining the House Quidditch champion team are cumulative, so the Chasers' points do matter, but that wouldn't make me any more interested in a sport that's simultaneously dangerous and, IMO, boring.
>   

Bart:
    Actually, the rules of Quidditch appear to be far more 
straightforward than many other sports, although we don't learn much 
about the rules on fouls, penalties, and time-outs, but, frankly, I'm 
hard-pressed to find a spectator sport that has more complex rules than 
baseball (although cricket probably comes in second).

    Given that (and I believe this group has had this discussion before, 
but it's probably a good idea to bring it up again every couple of 
years), I also agree that the scoring system is all off, even given the 
cumulative nature of the game (certainly, in Hogwarts, the games are too 
far apart to make the early games interesting, and note that the world 
championship is a single game). As I have mentioned at some time or 
other, I used to be involved in game design (mostly non-computer); part 
of what I did was analysis of proposed rule systems, looking for 
"glitches" (places where the rules were unbalanced). And, frankly, if 
someone were to hand me Quidditch, I would have definitely found the 
Seeker's role to be too much of an unbalancing factor.

     If I were doing an analysis, these would be my major recommendations.

    1) Get rid of the excess zeroes (all points are multiples of 10): 
That's for pinball/video games, not for sports. It's unnecessary chrome 
(a game term for aspects of a game which have nothing to do with who 
wins or loses but make it more interesting; for example, in chess, 
naming pieces after figures in a kingdom is "chrome"). In story note: in 
the HP series, the 10x points were used because of their relative effect 
on school points (which, one may note, get less and less valuable as the 
series went on). But that could be handled through a conversion factor, 
as in, "Every point in Quidditch adss 10 points to the house score, so 
be sure as to score as many as possible!" said Percy.

    2) Games are either singular or cumulative. If they are cumulative, 
then games should be played as a series BETWEEN THE SAME TEAMS. In a 
setting like Hogwarts, for example, there should be at least twice as 
many games, preferably 3 times as many. Let's consider an effective 
school year of 36 weeks. Currently, there's a game every 6 weeks; if 
there were one every other week, that would make a more sensible idea of 
"series". But there's a problem here. The WW just doesn't have a big 
enough population to sustain such regular playing. At Hogwarts, just 
getting together 4 competent teams together is problematic, with only 
about 60-70 students in a house.

    3) The point score for catching the Snitch is excessive. In general, 
the only time a team will lose after catching the Snitch is if the team 
is completely outclassed by the competition. At best, and within the 
spirit of the game, a good Seeker should be able to overcome a slightly 
inferior team (just as, in baseball, a great pitcher can make up for a 
slightly inferior team, but not a completely outclassed one). I'd 
recommend halving it; playtesting with 7(0) points for capturing the 
Snitch (playtesting is a game design term for the designer(s) observing 
a game being played, with the proviso that the designer(s) can make any 
alterations they like along the way, including stopping the game and 
starting from ground zero. From the players' point of view, the object 
is to see if the game works, not to win).

    Bart



From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 17:00:37 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:00:37 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcqu3e+vt0j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcsbvl+48e2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188351

Potioncat's Question;
"All Neville cared about was never going near the dog again." What do you think about Neville at this point? Are we being misled into thinking he lacks courage?


Janelle:
I think that most of us do jump to the conclusion that Neville lacks courage (and maybe that's what was intended by JKR), but I don't think that a cowardace is the trait that we're really being shown here.  I think, instead, that we're seeing Neville's insecurity to a certain extent.  He's  not excited to seek out another adventure like Harry and Ron are- instead he's content to sit back and keep to himself.  He doesn't believe he could handle something like that dog- or whatever else might be out there- and so instead he just stays home (or in the common room).





From caaf at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  4 17:48:36 2009
From: caaf at hotmail.com (Cyril Andrew Fernandes)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:48:36 +0000
Subject: A couple of questions on Horcrux and Secret Keepers
Message-ID: <SNT109-W11B6B97DCD36E282F93B39CAB10@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 188352


Cyril here:

 

I was doing another re-read of the series - and a question popped up. Not sure if this has been discussed earlier - so thought I would get your thoughts on this.

 

Question 1:

When Dumbledore put on the ring Horcrux, it had a deadly curse that nearly killed him - being only saved by his own "prodigious skill" and Snapes timely intervention. Even then, the curse was just kept at bay, and not eliminated.

 

However, when the Trio put on the Horcrux (which in fact was earlier worn by Umbridge and maybe even Dung, not to mention possibly Kreacher), it did not really impact them in any serious immediate way. Given that it was a Horcrux itself is a cursed object, and it weas not that only the ring had a special curse, why did it not impact any of the wearers like the ring affected DD? As DD comments in King's Cross - he put on the ring forgetting that it was a Horcrux, and hence had a curse, and nearly died.

 

 

Question 2:

The other question links into the FAQ poll that JKR had answered on her website...

 

I am attaching her response here below:

 

---------------------------------------------

What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?
I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for? but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know!

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is 

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else ? not even the subjects of the secret themselves ? can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.


---------------------------------------------

 

If this is the case, then in DH - how could Snape be suspected to be able to pass on the info of the HQ to the DE's - or even for Hermione to be able to reveal the secret - even by accident - to Yaxley.

It looks like the answer given by JKR on her site and part of the DH sub plot are actually contradictory.

 

Your thoughts...
Cyril.






 EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD
Join me 		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 18:08:17 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:08:17 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcsfuh+ks8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188353

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> 1.Which sports rules did you find easier to understand: 
> Quidditch or Baseball?


zanooda:

Quidditch is very easy to understand, while baseball rules seem to be invented with the only purpose to confuse us foreigners, LOL. Honestly, it took me years just to understand the basics (movies gave me more in this respect than real-life games, BTW), and I don't think I'll ever be able to get the specifics :-). As for Quidditch, it is really quite straightforward, with rules similar to basketball or soccer, and with a few additions :-).
 


> 3.We are shown Trevor zooming around the class in Charms, 
> does that mean that kids' pets are allowed in the classrooms 
> if kids so desire?

zanooda:

IIRC, the only pet we ever see in class is Trevor - in PoA Snape tested on him Neville's Shrinking solution. I think Neville was carrying Trevor around because, if left unsupervised in the dormitory or the common room, he would escape again, and because, unlike a cat, he can fit in a pocket. It would be easier to keep him in a terrarium though :-).

 
> Zara's question:

> 7.We now know Snape agreed to help Dumbledore protect *Harry*. 
> What, in your opinion, explains his extra efforts to protect 
> the Philosopher's Stone


zanooda:

Well, if DD and Snape knew that Quirrell was acting on LV's orders, then Snape would understand that this meant danger for Harry, wouldn't he? And if they *didn't* know, then it means that Snape was in it for more than just Harry, that he was ready to help DD with whatever else he needed.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 19:57:45 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:57:45 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcq6vf+si3a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcsmbp+c8v8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188354


Alla:
> > 6.	When Ron hears Hermione scream after she is locked in with the Troll, he is described turning "pale as the Bloody Baron". What if anything does it mean to you?
> 
> Geoff:
> Sounds like a variation on going "as white as a ghost" or "as white as a sheet".

Alla:

I wonder if I was way off base when I was thinking that this remark is one of the foreshadowing clues for Ron and Hermione love story, especially in light of us learning about Bloody Baron and Grey Lady tragic love story in book 7. I was also thinking that maybe if these two linked together, maybe it does show that Ron and Hermione learned a lot especially in comparison with past generations. No I am not saying that they are some reincarnations of Baron and Grey Lady, but I was still thinking about their stories together. I mean, it is clear to me that they loved each other, but obviously they had plenty of disagreements (Baron and Lady). Ron and Hermione's bickering however seems to result in happy marriage instead of murder/suicide.

JMO,

Alla





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 21:39:36 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:39:36 -0000
Subject: A couple of questions on Horcrux and Secret Keepers
In-Reply-To: <SNT109-W11B6B97DCD36E282F93B39CAB10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <hcssao+agbn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188355



---  Cyril Andrew Fernandes <caaf at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Cyril here:
> 
>  
> 
> I was doing another re-read of the series - and a question popped up. Not sure if this has been discussed earlier - so thought I would get your thoughts on this.
> 
>  
> 
> Question 1:
> 
> When Dumbledore put on the ring Horcrux, it had a deadly curse that nearly killed him - ...
> 
>  
> 
> However, when the Trio put on the Horcrux (which in fact was earlier worn by Umbridge and maybe even Dung, not to mention possibly Kreacher), it did not really impact them in any serious immediate way. ...
> 
>  

bboyminn:

Keep in mind that Horcruxes themselves are not 'cursed objects'
merely by being a Horcrux.

Keep in mind that the Ring Horcrux, was merely hidden under the 
floorboards of an abandon old shack. That in itself is not very
safe. So, Voldemort added many protective enchantments and 
spells to make sure no magical people or muggles came to
disturb the object. 

One of the many things that Voldemort did, was to curse the
Ring itself, as a final line of protection. So, it was the
curse that Voldemort added to the Ring, and not the Ring 
itself that harmed Dumbledore. 
 
>  
> 
> Question 2:
> 
> The other question links into the FAQ poll that JKR had answered on her website...
> 
>  
> 
> I am attaching her response here below:
> 
>  
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> 
> What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?
> ...
> 
> When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> If this is the case, then in DH - how could Snape be suspected to be able to pass on the info of the HQ to the DE's - or even for Hermione to be able to reveal the secret - even by accident - to Yaxley.
> 
> It looks like the answer given by JKR on her site and part of the DH sub plot are actually contradictory.
> 
>  
> 
> Your thoughts...
> Cyril.
> 


bboyminn:

I don't think anyone reveal the location of 'the secret' 
while Dumbledore was alive. But, once Dumbledore dies, those
who knew the secret at that time now become Secret Keepers
themselves. Since they are not Secret Keeper of the original
secret, they are allowed to pass the secret on.

That is what allowed Hermione to bring someone, accidentally
or on purpose, within the boundaries of the Secret of
12 Grimmauld Place. At that point in time, after Dumbledore's
death, Hermione, as well as everyone else, has become the
new Secret Keeper. 

That is one of the reasons they abandon 12 Grimmauld Place,
because, with so many Secret Keepers capable of divulging 
the Secret, it becomes much less secure. 

As to whether someone who knows the Secret, but was not the
Secret Keeper, could be forced to reveal it; I don't think
so. I think the enchantment of the Secret Keeper Charm would
in someway act to prevent them. Since, revealing the Secret
by a knowing but non-Secret Keeper is controlled by an 
outside force, I don't see how torture or Veritaserum or any
thing else could compel them to reveal the Secret. 

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  4 21:45:40 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:45:40 -0000
Subject: A couple of questions on Horcrux & Secret Keepers - Typo
In-Reply-To: <hcssao+agbn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcssm4+a8rr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188356



---  "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote
> 
...
> 
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> ... Since they are **not** Secret Keeper of the original secret,
> they are allowed to pass the secret on.
> 
> ...

bboyminn:

The above sentence should read -

Since they are **NOW** Secret Keeper of the original secret, they
are allowed to pass the secret on.

Steve/bboyminn




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Nov  5 13:04:15 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:04:15 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcsmbp+c8v8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcuigf+t8dp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188357


> 
> Alla:
 Ron and Hermione's bickering however seems to result in happy marriage instead of murder/suicide.


Potioncat:
There's still time....

That would have been a cool theory before book 7, and would have strengthened the theory that Ron was going to die. Boy, there were lots of hints in that direction! Not sure if JRK intended them, but we sure found them.

 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Nov  5 15:47:56 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:47:56 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcus3c+bgu8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188358

 
> 1.	Which sports rules did you find easier to understand: Quidditch or Baseball?
> 

Pippin:
I don't think we can say we understand the Quidditch rules at all, since there are all those hundreds of fouls and we don't know what they are. But it's probably easier to follow the action in a baseball game, since there's only one ball.

> 2.	What special circumstances about her getting Harry a broom did McGonagall share with Flitwick in your opinion?

Pippin:
We don't know the reason for the ban on first years bringing their own brooms, so it's difficult to say. If it's simply to keep first years from showing up with more broom than they can handle, then I see no reason not to make an exception for Harry. The argument is sometimes made that Draco was a good flyer too. But Draco was using the wrong grip so he had some bad habits to unlearn.

Evidently Flitwick didn't think that letting Harry play would give Gryffindor an unfair advantage over Ravenclaw. What Snape thought we don't know, but we do know that in CoS he doesn't hesitate to pre-empt a scheduled Gryffindor practice because Slytherin needed to train its new Seeker.

Hogwarts rules are not inflexible.

 
> 3.	We are shown Trevor zooming around the class in Charms, does that mean that kids' pets are allowed in the classrooms if kids so desire?

Pippin:
It certainly means that Snape isn't the only teacher who thinks its okay to demonstrate spells on a pet. I wonder how Trevor felt about it? It seems to me being zoomed around would be  more frightening then a momentary regression to tadpolehood.


> 
> 4.	We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but feel that they have no other choice. What does this say about their characters or any characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?

Pippin:
Of course they do have a choice. They, or one of them,  could have gone to get a teacher. But it's like Gryffindors to think that they, and they alone, can make a difference.

> 
> 
> 5.	Do you believe that fighting a troll could be a good start for great friendship?
> 
Pippin:
Adversity often breaks down the barriers between people.


> 6.	When Ron hears Hermione scream after she is locked in with the Troll, he is described turning "pale as the Bloody Baron". What if anything does it mean to you?

Pippin:
The Bloody Baron is the only ghost we meet who's purely scary. The others all have a comic tinge that would make the simile inappropriate.

> 
> Zara's question:
> 7.	We now know Snape agreed to help Dumbledore protect *Harry*. What, in your opinion, explains his extra efforts to protect the Philosopher's Stone, as in  this chapter, when he sees through Quirrell's ruse and checks on the third-floor corridor rather than going into the dungeons with the other teachers?

Pippin:
Snape has been told that Voldemort will seek to return to power, and must know the stone could aid him in that purpose. Certainly a Voldemort returned to power would be a greater threat to Harry. But Snape is also attached to Hogwarts itself and would defend it against the traitorous Quirrell.

Thanks, Alla and Zara, for the summary and questions

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  5 20:30:23 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:30:23 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcus3c+bgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcvckv+a6v1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188359

Alla:
> 3. We are shown Trevor zooming around the class in Charms, does that mean that
kids' pets are allowed in the classrooms if kids so desire?

Pippin:
It certainly means that Snape isn't the only teacher who thinks its okay to
demonstrate spells on a pet. I wonder how Trevor felt about it? It seems to me
being zoomed around would be more frightening then a momentary regression to
tadpolehood.

Alla:

Oh I don't know. Now **of course** when I reread this sentence my first thought was about Snape's lesson. What I thought being interesting though are two things: one that I already mentioned that IMO kids are allowed to bring pets without facing repercussions to lessons, that was because I  seem to remember  back there one of the arguments about justifying Snape's behavior during that lesson was that Neville had no right to bring pet in classroom  and Snape could do whatever he chose anyway. Do not ask me whose argument it was, have no clue, but it stuck with me. And of course the most interesting thing to me is that while I have no idea how Trevor felt during both lessons, we hear nothing about Neville being upset at Flitwick's lesson, despite his pet zooming around that is. You can tell me that it could have happened anyway and I will say that since we do not see , I think it is much stronger assumption that it did not happen. And that tells me that Flitwick is much more caring person who took care to let Neville know that nothing dangerous is going to happen to his pet. Just a speculation, but IMO it is a reasonable one to make.


Alla:
> 4. We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but feel
that they have no other choice. What does this say about their characters or any
characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?

Pippin:
Of course they do have a choice. They, or one of them, could have gone to get a
teacher. But it's like Gryffindors to think that they, and they alone, can make
a difference.

Alla:
You really think that go get the teacher in the moment of imminent danger to somebody is a choice they should have taken into consideration? Personally, the fact that they did not is one of the main reasons why I like them so much. And I actually think that this is a very good example of why Gryffindor is my favorite house. We can talk about Slytherins thinking up a plan to fight and then fighting as long as their behinds are protected too, but the thing is sometimes there is no time, sometimes there is just no time and if one  goes away to think up a plan to save a person such person could be dead, by the time  plan is ready. I like my friend in the minute of imminent danger to myself to think about saving me first, and I like to think I will do the same thing. 
My question was more general however, because as much as I like character or person to have "saving people thing" I surely realize that selfless courage could be reckless. The thing is though, I will take this over the cowardly character any time.

And also when I read this about the character, that character feels that he has no choice but has to do it anyway, that could mean a really bad thing too, right? This phrase could mean that character is forced to do something horrible, to mug, to murder somebody for whatever reason. So I just thought that it was interesting that if this sentence was out of context it could have meant the exact opposite of what it means.


JMO,

Alla








From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Nov  5 22:49:05 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:49:05 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcvckv+a6v1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcvkp1+9j02@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188360


> Alla:
> You really think that go get the teacher in the moment of imminent danger to somebody is a choice they should have taken into consideration? 

Pippin:
Hermione thinks so. She very kindly tells McGonagall that Ron and Harry did not have time to go and get someone, but that's a lie. Ron and Harry did not think Hermione was in  immediate danger  when they first realized that Hermione didn't know about the troll.  And as we know, help was not far away. I like their spirit too, but really Ron and Harry had no more right to think they could deal with a troll on their own than Hermione would have. The most likely outcome was that all three of them would have died. 

Harry does learn a little something from this. When he realizes that he is about to confront "Snape" in the final chapters, he acknowledges that he is no match for him and sends Hermione back to get help.

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  5 23:03:27 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:03:27 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcvkp1+9j02@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcvlk0+tu07@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188361

> > Alla:
> > You really think that go get the teacher in the moment of imminent danger to somebody is a choice they should have taken into consideration? 
> 
> Pippin:
> Hermione thinks so. She very kindly tells McGonagall that Ron and Harry did not have time to go and get someone, but that's a lie. Ron and Harry did not think Hermione was in  immediate danger  when they first realized that Hermione didn't know about the troll.

Alla:

I disagree. I thought the lie part was about Hermione being the one who went looking for troll and Harry and Ron having nothing to do with it, that they did not unknowingly drove Hermione to meet him.

I do not remember the part where Ron and Harry think that Hermione was not in immediate danger. Could you remind me please?

Pippin:
>And as we know, help was not far away. I like their spirit too, but really Ron and Harry had no more right to think they could deal with a troll on their own than Hermione would have. The most likely outcome was that all three of them would have died. 

Alla:

I like more than their spirit, I like them taking this task upon themselves knowing that the outcome could be their classmate (not even friend yet) injured or dead. And yes, of course three of them could have died, or three of them could have survived OR two of them could have survived and Hermione could have died. I am very glad that they did not let the first possibility happen.



Pippin: 
> Harry does learn a little something from this. When he realizes that he is about to confront "Snape" in the final chapters, he acknowledges that he is no match for him and sends Hermione back to get help.

Alla:

Well yes of course, there is a time and a place for asking for help and there is a time and a place when there is no time IMO.

If Harry knew that  for example Snape captured somebody and did not rush for help then, my opinion of Harry would have gone way down.



JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  5 23:07:46 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:07:46 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcvlk0+tu07@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcvls2+10ulo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188362



> Alla:
> 
> I like more than their spirit, I like them taking this task upon themselves knowing that the outcome could be their classmate (not even friend yet) injured or dead. And yes, of course three of them could have died, or three of them could have survived OR two of them could have survived and Hermione could have died. I am very glad that they did not let the first possibility happen.


Alla:

Should read, I am very glad that they did not let the THIRD possibility happen of course, even knowing that the first one could come true as well.




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  6 05:48:55 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 05:48:55 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcvlk0+tu07@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd0dc7+r9g8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188363

> > > Alla:
> > > You really think that go get the teacher in the moment of imminent danger to somebody is a choice they should have taken into consideration? 
> > 
> > Pippin:
> > Hermione thinks so. She very kindly tells McGonagall that Ron and Harry did not have time to go and get someone, but that's a lie. Ron and Harry did not think Hermione was in  immediate danger  when they first realized that Hermione didn't know about the troll.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I disagree. I thought the lie part was about Hermione being the one who went looking for troll and Harry and Ron having nothing to do with it, that they did not unknowingly drove Hermione to meet him.
> 
> I do not remember the part where Ron and Harry think that Hermione was not in immediate danger. Could you remind me please?

Magpie:
Hermione's lie is one of the strangest things in the series to me, since it doesn't protect anybody. As I remember it, the boys think Hermione's in danger because they know she's in the bathroom and hasn't gotten the warning about the troll. They have no way of knowing she's in danger that moment, but rather than just tell a teacher that Hermione Granger's in the bathroom, they rush off to save her.

Hermione then tells McGonagall that she went after the troll herself. So the only change in the story is to Hermione herself. In the fake version she was in the bathroom because she went to hunt the troll, and Ron and Harry knew she was doing that, thought that was dangerous, and so went to rescue her. In the real version Hermione was in the bathroom because she was using the bathroom (to cry in) and didn't hear about the troll, Harry and Ron knew she was doing that, thought that was dangerous, and so went to rescue her. 

Hermione doesn't change their actions at all, or make them any more or less heroic. She just makes herself reckless where she wasn't. In both scenarios Harry and Ron rush off to help Hermione instead of telling someone else--and aren't they in the crowds being led to safety? Do they slip off so a teacher who's right there doesn't see them? Or at least a prefect? I can't remember.

-m




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Nov  6 13:02:13 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 13:02:13 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcvckv+a6v1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd16ol+l6oi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188364

 
> Alla:
> > 4. We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but feel
> that they have no other choice. What does this say about their characters or any
> characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?

> 
> Alla:
 We can talk about Slytherins thinking up a plan to fight and then fighting as long as their behinds are protected too, but the thing is sometimes there is no time, sometimes there is just no time and if one  goes away to think up a plan to save a person such person could be dead, by the time  plan is ready. I like my friend in the minute of imminent danger to myself to think about saving me first, and I like to think I will do the same thing. 

Potioncat:
What's wrong with having a plan? Yes, there are times---like this one---when there's no time to sit down and plan. But I think a Slytherin would be in the same situation. I don't think he would call out "Hang on while I go make a plan." A Slytherin, or even a more thoughtful Gryffindor would have told a teacher earlier that Hermione was in the girls' toilet and someone should go get her. 

I've always thought that Phineas Nigellus's line "Given a choice a Slytherin will save himself" means just the same thing it means in this case. Ron and Harry had no choice. They certainly wouldn't have taken on the troll if someone wasn't in danger.




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  6 15:18:31 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 15:18:31 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd0dc7+r9g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd1eo7+jq7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188365

Magpie:
Hermione's lie is one of the strangest things in the series to me, since it doesn't protect anybody. A



Janelle:
I've also always been a little confused about Hermione's lie, but as I think about it more in light of this discussion it seems to make a little bit more sense.

What happened was that Harry and Ron went to tell Hermione about the troll so she could go back to the common room with them- the troll was supposed to be in the dungeons so I don't think they ever expected to encounter it.  Once they found it they didn't really have time to go get help and did what they could to save Hermione.

What Harry and Ron maybe should have done was tell a prefect or teacher as soon as they remembered that Hermione wasn't with them and that person could have gone after her and taken care of it.  Remember- they didn't expect her to actually be in danger the troll was supposed to be far away.

So, by telling the teachers that she purposely went looking for the troll- not only does she try to put the blame on herself for what happened, but it makes the situation seem more immediate.  Harry and Ron didn't go looking for a Hermione who wasn't in danger, but for one who was and thus they wouldn't have felt that they had time to go find help.

Harry and Ron came to help Hermione, so she tries to help them back.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Nov  6 16:02:56 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:02:56 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd0dc7+r9g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd1hbg+opn0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188366



 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > I disagree. I thought the lie part was about Hermione being the one who went looking for troll and Harry and Ron having nothing to do with it, that they did not unknowingly drove Hermione to meet him.
> > 
> > I do not remember the part where Ron and Harry think that Hermione was not in immediate danger. Could you remind me please?
> 
> Magpie:
> Hermione's lie is one of the strangest things in the series to me, since it doesn't protect anybody. As I remember it, the boys think Hermione's in danger because they know she's in the bathroom and hasn't gotten the warning about the troll. They have no way of knowing she's in danger that moment, but rather than just tell a teacher that Hermione Granger's in the bathroom, they rush off to save her.


Pippin:
Harry and Ron are being led back to Gryffindor Tower by Percy when Harry remembers about Hermione. Ron doesn't want to do anything but follows Harry, saying "But Percy better not see us." Percy is right there and neither of them think to tell him what's going on. We don't know why at this point, but McGonagall's question, "Why aren't you in your dormitory?" provokes a guilty reaction from Harry, who looks at the floor. 

Clearly the boys think it's their fault that Hermione was in the bathroom in the first place. I think Harry was expecting her to say something like, "I didn't know about the troll, Professor. I've been in here all day crying because -- because *they* said I didn't have any friends!"

Hermione seems to pick up on all this, deduces that the other students were warned about the troll and sent to the dorms, and improvises a  story about going after the troll herself, with Ron and Harry coming to find her. But then she has to explain why they didn't go for help instead of attacking the troll, so she says it was about to finish her off when they arrived.

The difference between the two scenarios is not only that Hermione makes herself appear reckless. She also makes it seem that the boys suspected she was doing something reckless but weren't sure until they found her. It gives them a wholly disinterested and altruistic motive for their bravery which they really didn't have. In that, it foreshadows the prank.


Pippin








From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  6 17:06:10 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:06:10 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd1eo7+jq7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd1l22+3nb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188367

 Janelle:

> So, by telling the teachers that she purposely went looking for the troll- not only does she try to put the blame on herself for what happened, but it makes the situation seem more immediate.  Harry and Ron didn't go looking for a Hermione who wasn't in danger, but for one who was and thus they wouldn't have felt that they had time to go find help.

Magpie:
Not really. Just because Hermione was looking for the troll doesn't mean she's found the troll. Harry and Ron are still left with the same possibility for danger. The troll was supposed to be in the dungeons and Hermione was in the bathroom. If they're running to find Hermione in the bathroom where they think she is, they can still say they didn't want to wait to tell a teacher. They wanted to get her into the common room as soon as possible. That makes far more sense than realizing she went to hunt down the troll so they went to hunt down her. Both versions can have Harry and Ron thinking Hermione was in danger and that they didn't have time to get a teacher. 

-m




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Nov  6 17:11:34 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:11:34 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hcvckv+a6v1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd1lc6+2s7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188368

Alla:
> And also when I read this about the character, that character feels that he has no choice but has to do it anyway, that could mean a really bad thing too, right? This phrase could mean that character is forced to do something horrible, to mug, to murder somebody for whatever reason. So I just thought that it was interesting that if this sentence was out of context it could have meant the exact opposite of what it means.
> 

Pippin:
This points up what I see as a difference between the Slytherin and Gryffindor temperaments. The Slytherin might feel, with equal bravery, sincerity and desire to help, that he does not want to leave Hermione to face the troll alone while he fetches help for her, but what choice does he have? 


Both Gryffindors and Slytherins will fight a losing battle if necessary, but Gryffindors tend to disregard the odds, while Slytherins try to change them. There are occasions in canon where a Slytherin would have died if a Gryffindor had not rushed bravely in to save them, but there are also places where a Gryffindor rushes bravely in and might have died if a Slytherin had not sent for help instead of rushing to be with them. 

Pippin





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  6 20:14:25 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:14:25 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd16ol+l6oi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd2031+lo7p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188369





> Potioncat:
> What's wrong with having a plan? Yes, there are times---like this one---when there's no time to sit down and plan. But I think a Slytherin would be in the same situation. I don't think he would call out "Hang on while I go make a plan." A Slytherin, or even a more thoughtful Gryffindor would have told a teacher earlier that Hermione was in the girls' toilet and someone should go get her. 
> 
> I've always thought that Phineas Nigellus's line "Given a choice a Slytherin will save himself" means just the same thing it means in this case. Ron and Harry had no choice. They certainly wouldn't have taken on the troll if someone wasn't in danger.
>

Alla:
See, I do think that Slytherin in the time like this will say or think something to that effect. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a plan, except that sometimes one has no time to have a plan, you know? Now to be clear, I am not even necessarily talking about a plan to save Hermione, you know?  Because sure, while I have no problem with Harry and Ron acting right there right now and while I do think they may have not have enough time 

I am talking about having a plan to secure **oneself** life and liberty first and then, maybe rushing to save a friend if that friend is not dead yet that is. Because seriously the most I can grant Slytherins is that they will do that, they will have a plan to save oneselves and THEN go to save a friend, maybe.  And again, of course even at the time of danger there is nothing wrong with trying to save yourself AND friend. But sometimes it is just not possible. And yes, I know there is Snape, but as I argued in the past, to me book seven is screaming that author does not consider Snape a typical Slytherin.  IMO of course.

And well, how often DID we see Slytherins having a plan and coming to fight at least with a plan. Well, there is Slughorn of course bringing back 
 somebody lol, whatever that group consisted of, I have no problem with him doing that, but to me his evolution as a character still not complete till he takes on Voldemort, you know?

Honestly, it just feels to me that all paths in the book lead the characters to courage of all sorts if that makes sense. Maybe that's what author was examining? I mean, obviously as we discussed many times the division between houses is artificial and every real life person has all values in herself in different proportions, but as I said when I was thinking about this chapter when I was doing a summary, I just thought that to me it is very easy to understand and accept why courage is JKR's favorite character's trait. And even if courage could be not very attractive in the form of recklessness, it just seems to me that if courage is something that lets you not to think about yourself but about the person next to you in the time of danger, that it is all worth it. 

JMO,

Alla




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  6 23:45:37 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:45:37 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd0dc7+r9g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd2cf1+9i0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188370



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sistermagpie at ... wrote:
>
> > > > Alla:
> > > > You really think that go get the teacher in the moment of imminent danger to somebody is a choice they should have taken into consideration? 
> > > 
> > > Pippin:
> > > Hermione thinks so. She very kindly tells McGonagall that Ron and Harry did not have time to go and get someone, but that's a lie. Ron and Harry did not think Hermione was in  immediate danger  when they first realized that Hermione didn't know about the troll.
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > I disagree. I thought the lie part was about Hermione being the one who went looking for troll and Harry and Ron having nothing to do with it, that they did not unknowingly drove Hermione to meet him.
> > 
> > I do not remember the part where Ron and Harry think that Hermione was not in immediate danger. Could you remind me please?
> 
> Magpie:
> Hermione's lie is one of the strangest things in the series to me, since it doesn't protect anybody. As I remember it, the boys think Hermione's in danger because they know she's in the bathroom and hasn't gotten the warning about the troll. They have no way of knowing she's in danger that moment, but rather than just tell a teacher that Hermione Granger's in the bathroom, they rush off to save her.
> 
> Hermione then tells McGonagall that she went after the troll herself. So the only change in the story is to Hermione herself. In the fake version she was in the bathroom because she went to hunt the troll, and Ron and Harry knew she was doing that, thought that was dangerous, and so went to rescue her. In the real version Hermione was in the bathroom because she was using the bathroom (to cry in) and didn't hear about the troll, Harry and Ron knew she was doing that, thought that was dangerous, and so went to rescue her. 
> 
> Hermione doesn't change their actions at all, or make them any more or less heroic. She just makes herself reckless where she wasn't. In both scenarios Harry and Ron rush off to help Hermione instead of telling someone else--and aren't they in the crowds being led to safety? Do they slip off so a teacher who's right there doesn't see them? Or at least a prefect? I can't remember.
> 
> -m
>

Montavilla47:

I agree that the lie was probably unnecessary.  What it does accomplish 
is stopping the discussion before the boys have to admit that they knew 
where Hermione was because they had heard about it earlier from their 
classmates--and because they remembered (as their classmates apparently 
did not) because Ron made her cry in the first place.

And... it's possible that Harry and Ron didn't go get a teacher in the 
first place because they'd rather face a troll than admit that Ron was 
a jerk.  Something that would have surprised none of the teachers,
I'm sure.  

So, she may have saved Ron from a small amount of embarrassment,
but maybe it seemed like a bigger deal to the boys.  

Turned out to be a blessing for the boys.  Not only did they get a lot
of "help" on their homework (as in, having Hermione write most of their
essays), but Hermione turned out to have a big advantage in terms 
of mischief-making.  Her reputation as a swot allowed her to lie and
steal with impunity from the staff.







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Nov  7 23:22:38 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:22:38 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd2031+lo7p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd4vfu+rh7i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188371

 
> Alla:

> I am talking about having a plan to secure **oneself** life and liberty first and then, maybe rushing to save a friend if that friend is not dead yet that is. Because seriously the most I can grant Slytherins is that they will do that, they will have a plan to save oneselves and THEN go to save a friend, maybe.  

Pippin:
But when do we see any Slytherin  do that? 

Alla:
 And yes, I know there is Snape, but as I argued in the past, to me book seven is screaming that author does not consider Snape a typical Slytherin.  IMO of course.

Pippin:
I know your theory :) But what I want to ask is this, do you think that the books encourage this kind of thinking about real people? In the absence of more specific information, is it okay to rely on "typical" negative stereotypes as long as you think they are generally true and you recognize that there are exceptions?

It seems to me that people in the books who try to do this find it doesn't work for them. Either they make themselves look like hypocrites, or they find that the stereotype gets in the way of other people recognizing  exceptions. Snape can't be sure Voldemort is going to put his hatred of Muggleborns aside for Lily, and Dumbledore can't get Harry to see past the stereotype and consider that there might be some good in Snape. Slughorn sees Lily and Hermione as exceptions, but can't get other Slytherins to see them that way. 

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  8 04:00:18 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 04:00:18 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd4vfu+rh7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd5foi+363r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188372





> > Alla:
> 
> > I am talking about having a plan to secure **oneself** life and liberty first and then, maybe rushing to save a friend if that friend is not dead yet that is. Because seriously the most I can grant Slytherins is that they will do that, they will have a plan to save oneselves and THEN go to save a friend, maybe.  
> 
> Pippin:
> But when do we see any Slytherin  do that? 

Alla:

We do not of course, but this is the most extrapolation I am willing to grant based on what we do see and based on me thinking that Snape is not typical Slytherin. And of course we NEVER see unless we are talking about Snape Slytherin saving somebody they do not like. Hermione at this point in time is not their friend just yet, she is not their enemy but she is somebody both boys dislike. And yet they go saving her. Any examples of Slytherins doing that? Ever?

We have Snape of course saving Harry's life, but as you said, you know my theory ;)



> 
> Alla:
>  And yes, I know there is Snape, but as I argued in the past, to me book seven is screaming that author does not consider Snape a typical Slytherin.  IMO of course.
> 
> Pippin:
> I know your theory :) But what I want to ask is this, do you think that the books encourage this kind of thinking about real people? In the absence of more specific information, is it okay to rely on "typical" negative stereotypes as long as you think they are generally true and you recognize that there are exceptions?

Alla:

So let me ask you a question in turn before I answer yours. So we have books, which **SORT** young people in Houses based on the idea that supposedly one trait of their personality is so dominant, just SO DOMINANT that they need to be sorted in the house where presumably all other people have ONE or two at most personalities trait prevail.

These houses are left standing at the end of the books, all four of them, nothing changed that all four personality types can mingle with each other and live and learn from each other.

And you do not think this would be stereotyping RL people? I do agree that it is not stereotyping book characters, but you bet that if I would have observed this in RL, I would have thought that is doing exactly that. Yes, I know that Houses exist in RL schools, but if those Houses sort people based on them being intelligent OR bravem, OR hardworking, OR ambitious, oh dear, I will be dancing in the Bolshoy theatre balley troop.

But since we are talking about fiction, no I do not think it encourages any stereotyping, I do however think that it works in symbols and make all those unnamed students who constitute the population of these four houses to be no more than metaphors for the certain personality traits. Oh yes, of course there are few exceptions from that rule (IMO), but seriously, if this was not synbolic, don't you think that every student should have had the conversation with the Hat as Harry did?

I am not even sure if she planned Hermione to have hat be hesitant or this was added as afterthought.

Seriously, I just want to laugh every time when I am thinking that apparently being hardworking excludes one having any ambition (unless you are exception to the rule) and I guess I am supposed to think that unless you belong to those few exceptions you cannot show ALL those traits and more and each one of them becomes dominant for a short period of time.

So, yes, to answer your question Pippin, since you were the one who brought real life people into it, absolutely, I do think that to let Houses stand at the end of the books, IF we were talking about real life houses would be massively encouraging negative stereotyping.

Please do not consider the following to be the bragging about myself, but when I came to live in US, I think I showed that I have enough courage (yes, of course I did want to come, but boy adjusting to new life was hard and scary too) and enough ambition too, because I do think that what I achieved for a little more than a decade is pretty impressive.  And I just want to laugh if I would have to get sorted and some silly Sorting Hat would tell me that say I have more courage than desire to learn and ambition to succeed or vice versa.

Yep, IMO it would be RL stereotyping, but since it is fiction, and to me as I said Harry is the most "real" of all people in the book, maybe what she is saying is that in her character who is everyman, she showed real person or something? That all four houses are symbolically united in his person or something? I am just thinking out loud here.

JMO,

Alla






From mongwen at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 15:27:59 2009
From: mongwen at gmail.com (Mongwen)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 10:27:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
References: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <11A84135E2DF499FA7E3D97A74508D04@betty9wiwuzem4>

No: HPFGUIDX 188373

Thanks, Dumbledore, for the highly amusing summary.
snippage...
> 1. Which sports rules did you find easier to understand: Quidditch or 
> Baseball?
Quidditch. Definitely quidditch.  I've never quite gotten the hang of 
baseball and I have no excuse given I'm American and it's supposed to be our 
national pastime.

> > 2. What special circumstances about her getting Harry a broom did 
> > McGonagall share with Flitwick in your opinion?
Probably something along the lines of "he flies as well as his father. He's 
a natural." or similar.  My impression is the those of the faculty who knoew 
Lily and James were all quite fond of them.  Added onto that is the fact 
that the rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin is particularly intense, 
with Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff backing the Gryffindors generally.


> 3. We are shown Trevor zooming around the class in Charms, does that mean 
> that kids' pets are allowed in the classrooms if kids so desire?
Either that or he just turned up.  That particular toad is known for his 
wanderings.  We did see Hedwig come to Harry in History of Magic when she 
was injured in book five, but I think that a case of instinct more than any 
clue about the rules of Hogwarts.

4. We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but 
feel that they have no other choice. What does this say about their 
characters or any characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?

I suppose it's a combination of Harry's well documented saving people thing 
and Ron's guilt over making Hermione cry in this case.


> 5. Do you believe that fighting a troll could be a good start for great 
> friendship?

I suppose it would at least give the involved parties cause to look at each 
other in a new light.

> 6. When Ron hears Hermione scream after she is locked in with the Troll, 
> he is described turning "pale as the Bloody Baron". What if anything does 
> it mean to you?
Nothing.  I think it's a simple case of "uh-oh. We just trapped somebody.".

I suspect these are some of the least interesting answers you'll get, but I 
try not to overanalyze books when I read them and look for shipping clews 
six years in advance.
Blue Patronus




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov  8 17:48:25 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:48:25 -0000
Subject: Medieval Universities / the Bloody Baron /  Charlie time line.
Message-ID: <hd7099+fmr6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188374

Geoff wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188323>:

<< On the question of dates, Oxford University is a close contemporary of Hogwarts and the universities of Bologna and Paris were earlier European foundations. There were certainly earlier Islamic universities existing at this time, the one at Fes in Morocco being considered as the oldest degree-granting, dating from AD 859. >>

CoS begins in autumn of 1992 and Professor Binns said that Hogwarts was founded 'more than a thosand years ago - the exact date is not known'. IIRC the list decided that meant that Hogwarts was founded in the 980s.

I quickly looked on-line for information on medieval universities before writing my comment, and IIRC saw statements that oxford was founded 1140, Bologna founded 1080, and not a date for Paris, but that it began as a cathedral school for younger students before growing into a university.

And I saw that there was a university in Constantinople in the fifth century, but Constantinople is not Western Europe, and neither is Fez.

Alla discussed PS/SS Chapter Nine in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188337> and asked:

<< 6. When Ron hears Hermione scream after she is locked in with the Troll, he is described turning "pale as the Bloody Baron". What if anything does it mean to you? >>

To which, Carol replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188340>:

<< BTW, NHN describes the Baron as "groaning and clanking on the Astronomy Tower" (HBP) and the Grey Lady mentions the Baron's chains, but how can ghostly chains clank, how can he fly if he wears them, and how did he get put in chains in the first place if he killed himself immediately after killing her? >>

Ghostly chains can clank the same way that ghosts can speak (it is magic that moves the air molecules to make the sounds). 

The Baron's guilty conscience created the ghostly chains, either as he died, or somewhat later when he had time to think about it.

Long ago in fanfic I tried to figure out the Bloody Baron. I thought he was centuries more recent than the Founders, but I did think that the reason he refused to 'go on' was because he had killed the woman he loved (it's not murder when they're on different sides of a magic military battle). But I didn't think he had immediately killed himself after that; I thought he was later killed by the betraying Dark Witch he had been serving in that battle, when she wanted to give his estates to a newer vassal. Thus showing that trying to gain more power by supporting a Dark Lord or Lady in rebellion against one's rightful king is a lose.

Around that time, Carol had a theory that all that talk in canon about 'blood' meant that magic is literally 'in the blood'. The theory was elegant analysis of the text, but didn't make too much sense to me: would a Muggle like me gain magic power by getting a large blood transfusion from a wizard? However, it perfectly answered my question about why Peeves is scared of the Bloody Baron. If only people who have magic blood can do magic, and BB is the only local ghost who has blood, then he is the only local ghost who can do magic and curse Peeves.

Geoff wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188343>:

<< "I wear the chain I forged in life," replied the Ghost. "I made it link by link, and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it." >>

Yes, probably that was in Rowling's mind, but there are a lot of other clanking ghosts haunting around. I've never thought that they had chains because they had been chained in dungeons while dying, but rather I have taken it for granted that they got the chains as part of their ghost act, whether the chains represent some Catholic doctrine about their souls being stuck in purgatory, or represent some psychology about their mind is chained to events from their life/dying. Or maybe just make noise to scare live people.

Janelle wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188341>:

<< From those dates it's clear that Charlie's last year at Hogwarts had to have been 1986, which means that his first year was 1979 (assuming that he attended all 7 years) >>

Thank you for doing a Charlie Weasley time-line. I have tried to do one, but I get confused with all those dates. The mismatch of school year and calendar year helps confuse me

Rowling's outside the books remarks wildly juggle the characters' birthdays. It seems to me that if Bill had been born in August 1967 and Charlie in July 1968, they both would have started first year at Hogwarts in September 1979, which would explain why they divided the glory between them, Bill concentrating on academics and becoming Prefect and Head Boy, and Charlie concentrating on sport and becoming Quidditch Captain.

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188344>:

<< Fleur's attraction to Bill (which would be fine if she's, say, eighteen and he's twenty-three but odd if he's eleven years older than Percy (two years older than Charlie, who's nine years older than Percy by this timeline), which would make him about twenty-eight and Bill about thirty at the end of GoF. It would also make Bill thirty-two at the end of HBP, which makes the distinction between Lupin (age thirty-seven) and Bill in HBP rather stretched >>

When she made those interview statements about wizards live longer than Muggles and Dumbledore is 150 (changed to 115 in DH, grrr), I thought she was going for wizards starting at the mystical age of 21 age one year for every two they live, so Dumblerdore at 150 would be the same as a Muggle at 85, Bill at 30 would be the same as 25, and McGonagal at 'a spritely 70' would be the same as 45. The Marauder generation would have had to be in their 60s to look like in their 40s. Okay, I was wrong.





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Nov  8 17:59:34 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 8 Nov 2009 17:59:34 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/8/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1257703174.474.16606.m13@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188375

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Sun Nov  8 02:51:33 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:51:33 -0800
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
Message-ID: <098A71E9D27B4618B4F989675D3A1626@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188376

Pippin:
(snip)
Evidently Flitwick didn't think that letting Harry play would give
Gryffindor an unfair advantage over Ravenclaw. What Snape thought we don't
know, but we do know that in CoS he doesn't hesitate to pre-empt a scheduled
Gryffindor practice because Slytherin needed to train its new Seeker.


Jean:
However, Flitwick rarely interferes in anything Gryffindors do, even if it
affects Ravenclaws. Flitwick, in my opinion, showed no sign of concern over
Marietta Edgecombe in OOtP, even though it was quite possible Umbridge
gained her confession by torture, or undue pressure on her mother's job.
Just because Flitwick doesn't see a problem does not mean there isn't one
(also note he does nothing that I was able to see in canon to protect Luna
Lovegood from her own House mates). It is quite possible that in Snape's
case that he may feel the need to be aggressive because nobody else is over
what could appear to be overwhelming Gryffindor dominance. 
 
I have to admit that I agree that catching the Snitch often adds so many
points as to make the rest of the game irrelevant. 
 
Jean Lamb
Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?
tlambs1138 at charter.net
excessiveperky (LJ)

 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Sherry at PebTech.net  Sun Nov  8 23:54:26 2009
From: Sherry at PebTech.net (sherryc22821)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 23:54:26 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hco833+ik0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd7lni+7sc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188377

Alla and  Zara, thank you both for great, thought-provoking questions. You both rock!

> 1.	Which sports rules did you find easier to understand: Quidditch or Baseball?
> 
Quidditch, definitely! The rules are complex, but the combination of Oliver's explanation being written for a novice and the fact that we were "hearing" it through Harry's perception made them comprehensible. I've never been able to grasp all the complex rules of Baseball, perhaps because so many explanations are aimed at people who already understand some of the rules.

> 2.	What special circumstances about her getting Harry a broom did McGonagall share with Flitwick in your opinion?
> 
First, the fact that Harry was an exception to standard practice, as a first-year student with a remarkable ability for flying. Second, some sketch of the tight conditions and minimal pleasures the Dursleys allowed him, to explain why he wouldn't have a chance to get his own broom as many students have. And since Flitwick is also a Head of House, she probably emphasized Gryffindor's desperate need for his skills!
> ............
> 4.	We are told that Ron and Harry do not want to go fight the troll, but feel that they have no other choice. What does this say about their characters or any characters when thought like this flashes in their minds?

It shows how they put others' needs, such as Hermione's, ahead of their own. Some people might feel that their own safety came first, or that they shouldn't actually risk themselves to help someone else.
> 
> 5.	Do you believe that fighting a troll could be a good start for great friendship?

Yes! In our mundane world, working together to reach a difficult goal can be the beginning of friendship--or else of mutual distance, since people see more of each other's strengths and weaknesses than they might usually.
> 
Sherry




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  9 00:51:19 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 00:51:19 -0000
Subject: Medieval Universities / the Bloody Baron /  Charlie time line.
In-Reply-To: <hd7099+fmr6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd7p27+aqg6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188378

Carol earlier:
> 
> << BTW, NHN describes the Baron as "groaning and clanking on the Astronomy Tower" (HBP) and the Grey Lady mentions the Baron's chains, but how can ghostly chains clank, how can he fly if he wears them, and how did he get put in chains in the first place if he killed himself immediately after killing her? >>

Catlady replied: 
> Ghostly chains can clank the same way that ghosts can speak (it is magic that moves the air molecules to make the sounds). 

Carol again:

Hmmm. I doubt that JKR is greatly concerned with the laws of physics (or the rules of logic, for that matter). But I was thinking more in terms of the chains needing weight or substance to clank. The BB's chains can't have weight or substance or he couldn't fly or walk through walls.

Catlady wrote: 
> The Baron's guilty conscience created the ghostly chains, either as he died, or somewhat later when he had time to think about it. <snip>

Carol responds:
"Mind-forged manacles" a la William Blake (only for the dead, not the living)? I guess that's a better explanation than the Marley's ghost comparison since it seems that all ghosts in "A Christmas Carol," or at least all repentant ones, wear the chain they forged in life. Marley's (and Scrooge's, if he refused the visit) are composed of cash boxes, but I'm sure that other people besides misers forge such chains in Dickens's fantasy, but the Bloody Baron is the only ghost with chains in the HP books.

Catlady wrote" 
>  
> Around that time, Carol had a theory that all that talk in canon about 'blood' meant that magic is literally 'in the blood'. The theory was elegant analysis of the text, but didn't make too much sense to me: would a Muggle like me gain magic power by getting a large blood transfusion from a wizard? However, it perfectly answered my question about why Peeves is scared of the Bloody Baron. If only people who have magic blood can do magic, and BB is the only local ghost who has blood, then he is the only local ghost who can do magic and curse Peeves. <snip>

Carol responds:
I still have that theory because, as you say, it matches the text. The Dursleys have "not a drop of magical blood," Lily's love magic is in Harry's blood and transfers to LV when he uses Harry's blood to reconstitute his body (notice that while "bone of the [Muggle] father will do fine for the body itself, the blood has to come from a Witch or Wizard. And, of course, there's the expressions themselves: Pureblood, "Mudblood," etc. I'm sure there are other examples, but I can't think of any offhand.

Catlady: 
> Rowling's outside the books remarks wildly juggle the characters' birthdays. It seems to me that if Bill had been born in August 1967 and Charlie in July 1968, they both would have started first year at Hogwarts in September 1979, which would explain why they divided the glory between them, Bill concentrating on academics and becoming Prefect and Head Boy, and Charlie concentrating on sport and becoming Quidditch Captain. <snip>

Carol responds:
That wouldn't quite work. Bill would have to be born between September 1 and December 31 to miss the cut-off date for kids born in his calendar year (as Hermione did). If Charlie was born any time before September 1 of the following year (with at least nine months between hem), they'd be in the same school year. Too bad for the older kid to have his younger brother in the same year! But I'm pretty sure that in JKR's mind, they're two years apart.

Carol, too lazy on this Sunday evening to look up the birthdays in the Lexicon




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Nov  9 03:39:21 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:39:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd2031+lo7p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd82t9+g6ia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188379

Alla:
> 
> I am talking about having a plan to secure **oneself** life and liberty first and then, maybe rushing to save a friend if that friend is not dead yet that is. Because seriously the most I can grant Slytherins is that they will do that, they will have a plan to save oneselves and THEN go to save a friend, maybe.  And again, of course even at the time of danger there is nothing wrong with trying to save yourself AND friend. But sometimes it is just not possible. And yes, I know there is Snape, but as I argued in the past, to me book seven is screaming that author does not consider Snape a typical Slytherin.  IMO of course.

Potioncat:
Let's look at some Slytherins in challenging situations.

Regulus didn't secure his safety; he secured Kreacher's. I just wish he had been clever enough to say to Kreacher, "Get *us* out of here." 

Slughorn was protecting himself for several years, even through Snape's term as Headmaster, but once he decided to take a stand, he came back with reinforcements and fought with no special protection for himself. 

I've come to think that we aren't supposed to see Snape as an exception. He may be exceptional, but not an exception.

 And we do have our own stereotype of the Houses. Just as in RL we may have certain sterotypes of cheerleaders, football players or A+ Math students.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  9 03:57:17 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:57:17 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd82t9+g6ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd83ut+sir3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188380



> Potioncat:
> Let's look at some Slytherins in challenging situations.
> 
> Regulus didn't secure his safety; he secured Kreacher's. I just wish he had been clever enough to say to Kreacher, "Get *us* out of here." 

Alla:

Yes, me too :(


Potioncat: 
> Slughorn was protecting himself for several years, even through Snape's term as Headmaster, but once he decided to take a stand, he came back with reinforcements and fought with no special protection for himself. 

Alla:

Yes, but this is not quite what I am talking about though. Whom was Slughorn saving here? I mean, I know I know he was contributing to defeat of Voldemort, but initially I was looking for much more direct comparison to what Harry and Ron did for Hermione. My point is that no Slytherin would go save a person in danger **that very second**, even if there is no time to come up with the plan. IMO Slughorn is not nearly in that situation. I agree that Snape was in that situation for Harry, but as I said I do consider Snape an exception and I guess we disagree here.


Potioncat:
> I've come to think that we aren't supposed to see Snape as an exception. He may be exceptional, but not an exception.

Alla:

We have to agree to disagree here then :-)


Potioncat:
>  And we do have our own stereotype of the Houses. Just as in RL we may have certain sterotypes of cheerleaders, football players or A+ Math students.

Alla:

We do? I did not grew up in the US as you know, but based on movies I guess the stereotypes are that cheerleaders and football players are all stupid  and only know how to play sports? And A+ math students have no clue how to play sports?

But I mean, nobody would think this seriously, right? Everybody knows that those are silly stereotypes and people who play sports well can also be talented in many other subjects and vice versa?

And even if a lot of people are engaging in these stereotypes (seriously, please do not count me among those people lol), I would still say that those are a very long way to go to the idea that cheerleaders and football players should be in their own house and A+ math students in their own and they just cannot be also ambitious and hardworking.

JMO,

Alla





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Nov  9 14:37:24 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:37:24 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd5foi+363r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd99f4+v8p7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188381

 
> Alla:
> 
> We do not of course, but this is the most extrapolation I am willing to grant based on what we do see and based on me thinking that Snape is not typical Slytherin. And of course we NEVER see unless we are talking about Snape Slytherin saving somebody they do not like. 

Pippin:
If you're prepared to argue that a behavior is typical when you admit you can't document it even once, I don't know how to answer you.

But as  for saving people they don't like, Narcissa saved Harry from Voldemort. Draco lowered his wand against Dumbledore and  refused to identify the Trio until it no longer mattered. Slughorn came back to the aid of all the Hogwartians, not just the ones he liked.  He fought side by side with McGonagall, who suspected him of planning treachery, and Shacklebolt, whom he probably doesn't know. Regulus's plan, had it been successful, would have saved everyone, Muggles and Muggleborns included.


 
> Alla:
> 
> So let me ask you a question in turn before I answer yours. So we have books, which **SORT** young people in Houses based on the idea that supposedly one trait of their personality is so dominant, just SO DOMINANT that they need to be sorted in the house where presumably all other people have ONE or two at most personalities trait prevail.
> 
> These houses are left standing at the end of the books, all four of them, nothing changed that all four personality types can mingle with each other and live and learn from each other.

Pippin:
Huh? House segregation is not so absolute as you suggest. Many activities, most importantly NEWT classes, are mixed.  Advancement, in a literal sense, requires being able to work with others outside one's own House. Also, it seems that few people are a perfect fit for one House and one alone, since the Hat has to take some time with many of them.
 
 Of course I don't think it's  plausible that people can be classed in four personality types based on the four elements, but it might be possible that everyone's mind does not work the same way, and that the different ways that people think  complement each other. Would it matter whether people valued  power, wisdom, loyalty or courage the most if they could only realize there is one thing which is the greatest source of all of them?  I don't think I have to tell you what JKR shows it is :) 

In any case, I was talking about *negative* stereotypes which have grown up around the Houses and are never mentioned by the Sorting Hat. Hufflepuffs are duffers, Gryffindors are brainless, etc. I think Slytherins save their own skins first is one of them. It is, IMO, shown to be as empty and harmful as any of the others, even if some Slytherins, like Phineas, actually believe it. Draco believed it. He didn't expect to have any trouble carrying out his mission on the Tower. But, you know, even in the Potterverse, believing something doesn't make it true.

Pippin





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  9 20:48:36 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:48:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd99f4+v8p7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hd9v74+rn4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188382


Pippin:
If you're prepared to argue that a behavior is typical when you admit you can't
document it even once, I don't know how to answer you.


Alla:

No, this is not what I am saying at all. What I was saying initially (or at least trying to say) is that Slytherins would never do, or at least would not typically do what Harry and Ron would do for Hermione and I still stand by this opinion. But your response was something along the lines that Slytherins would go and form a plan first, or as you said change the odds or something and then they will come and do exactly the same what Harry and Ron did.

If I misunderstood you I am sorry, but if I am not please read on. So, here is what I was trying to say. I do NOT see anywhere in the books Slytherins doing exactly what you were suggesting they would do, namely form a plan to save a person first instead of rushing into it heads on and then come back and save that person. Or I guess should I say, I do see Snape and only Snape doing that.

And then my point was that based on what I KNOW and SEE Slytherins doing , that extrapolation or speculation is the most I am willing to grant them, I thought I was being generous to them,  because I have not seen them doing even that.

Pippin:
But as for saving people they don't like, Narcissa saved Harry from Voldemort.

Alla:

Yes she did, in order to save her son. I am afraid it does not even come close to me to what Harry and Ron did. Any benefits for themselves that they were looking for? Yes, I know, Hermione saved them from teacher's wrath, but I do not see them going into action expecting that. IMO of course. To me their action is selfless, while Narcissa's is selfish, brave but selfish

Pippin:
Draco lowered his wand against Dumbledore and refused to identify the Trio
until it no longer mattered.

Alla:

LOL. Draco **saved** Dumbledore? And he refused to identify the Trio is your interpretation, mine is that he did not refuse anything, unfortunately, he was not saying yes or no. Refusal to me will be to say NO, that is not them. Where does he say ? no, it is not them in canon?

Pippin:
Slughorn came back to the aid of all the
Hogwartians, not just the ones he liked. He fought side by side with
McGonagall, who suspected him of planning treachery, and Shacklebolt, whom he
probably doesn't know. 

Alla:

Yes, he did came back, I can understand how he helped defending Hogwarts, just as I said upthread, I just do not see it as the same situation. I do not see him rushing to save anybody against all odds. But yes, he mastered courage worthy of Gryffindors lol IMO.


Pippin:
Regulus's plan, had it been successful, would have saved
everyone, Muggles and Muggleborns included.

Alla:

I do not get this.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
In any case, I was talking about *negative* stereotypes which have grown up
around the Houses and are never mentioned by the Sorting Hat. Hufflepuffs are
duffers, Gryffindors are brainless, etc. I think Slytherins save their own skins
first is one of them. It is, IMO, shown to be as empty and harmful as any of the
others, even if some Slytherins, like Phineas, actually believe it. Draco
believed it. He didn't expect to have any trouble carrying out his mission on
the Tower. But, you know, even in the Potterverse, believing something doesn't
make it true.

Alla:

And to me saying that people can be sorted into houses because the only one side of their personality will be predominant for them all their lives IS negative stereotyping through and through. As I said, if I think about it symbolically, I like that, if I try to think about it in realistic terms, no not really. I think she shows that some Slytherins could be courageous, no doubt about that, but considering how few of them I saw, well, no I cannot say that it overturns the image for me.

And um, where are intelligent Hufflepufs? There was Cedric who I guess must have been intelligent if chosen as Champion. And???





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 10 13:36:24 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (Susan A)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:36:24 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd83ut+sir3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdbq8o+7o5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188383

Potioncat:
> >  And we do have our own stereotype of the Houses. Just as in RL 
> > we may have certain sterotypes of cheerleaders, football players 
> > or A+ Math students.
 
Alla:
> We do? I did not grew up in the US as you know, but based on movies 
> I guess the stereotypes are that cheerleaders and football players 
> are all stupid  and only know how to play sports? And A+ math 
> students have no clue how to play sports?
> 
> But I mean, nobody would think this seriously, right? 
<snip> 
> And even if a lot of people are engaging in these stereotypes 
>(seriously, please do not count me among those people lol), I would 
> still say that those are a very long way to go to the idea that 
> cheerleaders and football players should be in their own house and 
> A+ math students in their own and they just cannot be also 
> ambitious and hardworking.


SSSusan:
Heh.  Spent any time in a U.S. high school cafeteria lately?  Or even in just a U.S. high school hallway?  You might be surprised....

The stereotypes you'd see might be slightly different or nuanced 
[ha! can a stereotype be nuanced?] than what you presented, but indeed, stereotypes are, imo, alive and well in all their disconcertingly hard-headedly-held way.  Hopefully not so widespread as in the past, but I think JKR counted a bit on the recognition that individuals often do still stereotype.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 10 16:26:54 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:26:54 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd9v74+rn4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdc48e+fa5j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188384


> Pippin:
> Regulus's plan, had it been successful, would have saved
> everyone, Muggles and Muggleborns included.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I do not get this.

Carol:

Maybe Pippin means that Regulus *thought* that his plan would save everybody, or, rather, that it would ultimately destroy Voldemort by making him mortal? Regulus didn't realize that LV had multiple Horcruxes.

Alla:
<snip> 
> And um, where are intelligent Hufflepufs? There was Cedric who I guess must have been intelligent if chosen as Champion. And???

Carol:
Ernie Macmillan? Admittedly, he studied more than anyone except possibly Hermione, but getting good marks because you study doesn't mean that you're not intelligent, as Hermione shows. Ernie must have earned an O in Potions or he couldn't have been in the NEWT Potions class. And I suspect that he got high marks on all his OWLs, with the possible exception of COMC.

Nor do Hannah Abbott and Justin Finch-Fletchley (who gave up Eton to attend Hogwarts) seem at all stupid. Hannah just lacks confidence, rather like Neville. I wouldn't call Zacharias Smith stupid even though we're supposed to see him as obnoxious and cowardly. Can't think of any others offhand, but I would say that Hagrid's remark about Hufflepuffs being "duffers" is wholly unjustified. It's strange and a bit ironic that he holds a view similar to Draco's ("Imagine being in Hufflepuff. I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"), which, of course, is identical to James Potter's view of Slytherin.

Hufflepuffs (with a few exceptions) are loyal, hardworking, and, as the Sorting Hat says in SS/PS, just. In other words, for the most part, they're all-around decent people, not "duffers" at all. That view is no more justified than little Severus's view that Gryffindors are all brawn and no brain or the idea (refuted by Snape, Regulus, Slughorn, and Andromeda Black Tonks) that all Slytherins are evil.

Oddly, the only House that we don't see stereotyped in some way is Ravenclaw (though an individual Ravenclaw, Luna, is ridiculed as an oddball). Possibly the other students think of Ravenclaws as "swots" or know-it-alls or eggheads, to use an American term, but we never see that because Ravenclaws play such a small role in the series.

Carol, just realizing that Harry fits the "nerd" stereotype (skinny with glasses) and noting that the Ravenclaws in general *don't*
>





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 10 21:30:55 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:30:55 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hdc48e+fa5j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdcm2f+ihbn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188385

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> > Alla:

> > And um, where are intelligent Hufflepufs? There was Cedric 
> > who I guess must have been intelligent if chosen as Champion. 
> > And???

 
> Carol:

> Ernie Macmillan? Admittedly, he studied more than anyone
> except possibly Hermione, but getting good marks because 
> you study doesn't mean that you're not intelligent, as 
> Hermione shows. Ernie must have earned an O in Potions or 
> he couldn't have been in the NEWT Potions class. And I 
> suspect that he got high marks on all his OWLs, with 
> the possible exception of COMC.


zanooda: 

How about Tonks :-)? JKR said she was in Hufflepuff, but we know that to become an Auror you have to get at least five NEWTs with Exceeds Expectations or higher. Snape only takes those with an "O" into his NEWT class, so Tonks probably had an "Outstanding" OWL in Potions to be there.








From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Nov 11 04:52:52 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:52:52 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd9v74+rn4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hddfv4+lquh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188386

 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes she did, in order to save her son. I am afraid it does not even come close to me to what Harry and Ron did. Any benefits for themselves that they were looking for? 

Pippin:
The benefit of knowing they didn't lock her in with a troll and leave her? They admit themselves that she might not have needed rescuing in the first place if they hadn't interfered. Also, it is only Harry, not Ron, who thinks of warning Hermione. Ron is reluctant to go along. 

> 
> Pippin:
> Draco lowered his wand against Dumbledore and refused to identify the Trio until it no longer mattered.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> LOL. Draco **saved** Dumbledore? 

Pippin:
The person Draco saved Dumbledore from was Draco, or from the part of Draco that thought it would be glorious to serve the Dark Lord and be a coldblooded killer like Bella. 

Alla:
And he refused to identify the Trio is your interpretation, mine is that he did not refuse anything, unfortunately, he was not saying yes or no. Refusal to me will be to say NO, that is not them. Where does he say ? no, it is not them in canon?

Pippin:
What good would that do? The suspicion that they're the Trio is the only thing protecting them from Greyback. 
 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, he did came back, I can understand how he helped defending Hogwarts, just as I said upthread, I just do not see it as the same situation. I do not see him rushing to save anybody against all odds. But yes, he mastered courage worthy of Gryffindors lol IMO.
> 

Pippin:
Then Snape's courage is not the sole example, right? Anyway, rushing to defend someone against all odds is not always a good thing. James might have been a bit more effective if he had his wand, no? 


> Pippin:
> Regulus's plan, had it been successful, would have saved
> everyone, Muggles and Muggleborns included.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I do not get this.

Pippin:
Regulus's plan was to render Voldemort mortal once more, so that when someone arose who was capable of matching him in battle, the Dark Lord would die. That was not necessary in order to protect Kreacher, whom Voldemort believed was already dead, or Regulus's family, who were purebloods and had never defied the Dark Lord. But it would save the Muggles and Muggleborns who were Voldemort's favorite targets. 


> Alla:
> 
> And to me saying that people can be sorted into houses because the only one side of their personality will be predominant for them all their lives IS negative stereotyping through and through. As I said, if I think about it symbolically, I like that, if I try to think about it in realistic terms, no not really. 

Pippin:
Wow, I don't read the Sorting that way at all. To me, it's just a consequence of the Founders agreeing to pool their knowledge and power, but being unable to decide on a single philosophy to guide the school. Each had their own idea of what makes a great wizard, and so they decided to divide the students equally between them, based on their assessment of the students' abilities and the students' own preferences. 

Each house has its strengths, but all are eventually shown to be flawed. The truly great wizard, as Book Seven shows, IMO, is after all not the one with the greatest courage, since as you point out, courage  can be used for selfish purposes, but the one who chooses to use his  abilities  for the common good. 

Gryffindor chivalry is meant to serve the common good, but the trouble with mandating that the strong should protect the weak is that it divides the world into strong people and weak ones. Those who identify with the strong become patronizing, those who see themselves as weak are disempowered. SWM shows this effect at its worst.


Alla: 
> And um, where are intelligent Hufflepufs? There was Cedric who I guess must have been intelligent if chosen as Champion. And???
>

Pippin:
You think Professor Sprout is stupid??

Pippin





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 11 10:29:24 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:29:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hdc48e+fa5j@eGroups.com>
References: <hdc48e+fa5j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <934089.65250.qm@web46203.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188387

Carol wrote:


[snip]
Can't think of any others offhand, but I would say that Hagrid's remark about Hufflepuffs being "duffers" is wholly unjustified. It's strange and a bit ironic that he holds a view similar to Draco's ("Imagine being in Hufflepuff. I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"), which, of course, is identical to James Potter's view of Slytherin.


Joey:
Was Hagrid making *his* opinion regarding Hufflepuff? I think he only said that Hufflepuffs are generally considered as duffers by everyone and by "everyone" I think he only meant to say "many people." He did say that it is better to be in Slytherin than Hufflepuff and that, IMO, was only to say how wicked he thought Slytherins were rather than saying that Hufflepuff is better only than Slytherin.


By the by, Hermione (and probably many other people) also seems to sport a similar view about Hufflepuffs and Slytherins as she tells Harry and Ron that Gryffindor is the best according to what she heard while she thinks being in Ravenclaw should be okay. She never mentions Hufflepuff. Slytherin seems to have earned a dark reputation by then and so, I presume the prejudice against Slytherin was quite widespread and even contagious, seeing how Harry, Ron, James enter the castle with this prejudice. I don't expect Hermione to be an exception. Yet it is not clear as to how *she* came to the conclusion that *Gryffindor* is the *best* - because DD (who had earned the "greatest wizard" reputation by then) was in it? Or because majority of the people whom she had spoken to thought it would be (is?) "cool" to be a Gryffindor? And, why does *she* say that being in *Ravenclaw* should be *okay*?- because *she* thinks wit is a great trait? Or because she didn't
 hear anybody terming Ravenclaws as duffers?


I think the author herself sports this opinion to a certain extent. Even the way she has plotted Quidditch match results,?I think she ended up recording her view: 1. Gryffindor, 2. Ravenclaw, 3. Hufflepuff, 4 (or none). Slytherin.


JMO, of course.

Cheers,
~Joey :-) 



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Nov 11 12:42:22 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:42:22 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <934089.65250.qm@web46203.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hdebfe+1eve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188388


>
> Joey:
> Was Hagrid making *his* opinion regarding Hufflepuff? I think he only said that Hufflepuffs are generally considered as duffers by everyone and by "everyone" I think he only meant to say "many people." He did say that it is better to be in Slytherin than Hufflepuff and that, IMO, was only to say how wicked he thought Slytherins were rather than saying that Hufflepuff is better only than Slytherin.

Potioncat:
Hagrid was commenting on Harry's statement that he (Harry) would probably end up in Hufflepuff, quoting Malfoy's statement. Hagrid was countering with Hufflepuff being better than Slytherin, but that many did think Hufflepuff were duffers. I think he was interrupted before he could continue. It seems he agrees, but I'm not sure.


> 
> Joey;
By the by, Hermione (and probably many other people) also seems to sport a similar view about Hufflepuffs and Slytherins as she tells Harry and Ron that Gryffindor is the best according to what she heard while she thinks being in Ravenclaw should be okay. 

Potioncat:
Hermione had read all about the houses. She thought Gryffindor would be the best and stated that DD came from there. I suspect she wanted to be in the house that the greatest wizard of the age had been in. She's also very clever in a bookish way, so Ravenclaw would be a good choice for her. She has her top two choices and Hufflepuff would automatically become third. She would know to avoid Slytherin based on blood status whether or not she thought Dark Wizards were bred there.

If you took out the blood status, Hermione would fit well in any of the houses. All four qualities--courage, cleverness, loyalty and ambition are strong in her.


> 
> Joey:
I think the author herself sports this opinion to a certain extent. Even the way she has plotted Quidditch match results, I think she ended up recording her view: 1. Gryffindor, 2. Ravenclaw, 3. Hufflepuff, 4 (or none). Slytherin.

Potioncat:
I read her differently. I saw very strong indications that she ranked them Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Slytherin. With the last two trailing the first two. She's shown academic success often leads to bad ends (Barty, Percy, Tom Riddle) and that Hufflepuff stands by Harry.

However, I don't think that's really the case. I think McGonagall's speech was correct, all four houses have produced outstanding witches and wizards and has it's own noble history---(or something like that.)

Potioncat--back home and hoping to catch up with these thought provoking threads. 





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Nov 12 04:17:45 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 04:17:45 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hd9v74+rn4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdg299+kbbo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188389


>>Alla (from earlier post) 
> But I mean, nobody would think this seriously, right? Everybody knows that those are silly stereotypes and people who play sports well can also be talented in many other subjects and vice versa?

>> Alla later:
> 
snip>
 What I was saying initially (or at least trying to say) is that Slytherins would never do, or at least would not typically do what Harry and Ron would do for Hermione and I still stand by this opinion.


Potioncat:
Stereotyping here, if you ask me. But I'm not throwing stones at you. Because I had an Ah Ha moment of my own.

IMHO, very few students at Hogwarts would do what Harry and Ron did. Not from Gryffindor or any other house. So it isn't as if any Gryffindor would have done the same and no Slytherin would. I don't have any idea what the numbers might be.




>>Alla:
> 
snip
 I do NOT see anywhere in the books Slytherins doing exactly what you were suggesting they would do, namely form a plan to save a person first instead of rushing into it heads on and then come back and save that person. Or I guess should I say, I do see Snape and only Snape doing that.

Potioncat:
We aren't likely to see anyone except Harry and Sirius rescuing one person. Although we did see Narcissa carry out a plan to protect Draco at risk to her own safety when she went to Snape.

Pippin and I have provided examples of Slytherins rescuing others or participating in fighting along side others, but we can't provide examples of immediate daring rescues because we weren't shown any. This is Harry Potter's story. 

> 
>> Alla:
> 
> And to me saying that people can be sorted into houses because the only one side of their personality will be predominant for them all their lives IS negative stereotyping through and through. As I said, if I think about it symbolically, I like that, if I try to think about it in realistic terms, no not really. I think she shows that some Slytherins could be courageous, no doubt about that, but considering how few of them I saw, well, no I cannot say that it overturns the image for me.
> 
> And um, where are intelligent Hufflepufs? There was Cedric who I guess must have been intelligent if chosen as Champion. And???

Potioncat:
I think it's significant that the Hogwarts Champion was from Hufflepuff. Of all the eligible students, he won out.  Are we to think he's the exception in Hufflepuff? 

I don't know if this is JRK's fault or ours. The Sorting Hat doesn't sort by lack of qualities. It sorts for qualities. Being brave and going into Gryffindor does not mean you are not loyal, ambitious or clever. It just means for some reason bravery won out. Being loyal and going into Hufflepuff does not mean you are not brave, clever or ambitious. Maybe it's the quality the student values most, or maybe it is the strongest quality or maybe the student could go to any house, but this one is the house who needs another student to balance out the quartering. 

I also think we readers have gotten things backwards. Yes, the Founders valued a specific quality and the house uses that set of values to sort, but the idea isn't to label students, but to label houses. Hermione who is brave, loyal, clever and ambitious can gladly join Gryffindor, the Home of the Brave. By being in Gryffindor she can aspire for great courage to honor her house.

I think Harry and DD, being in Gryffindor and valuing courage were surprised to see courage in Snape, and so honored his courage. A Ravenclaw (I don't remember who) saw how clever Hermione was and was surprised, and said she should have been in Ravenclaw. House members so strongly identify a value with their own house, they are caught off guard to see it in someone else.

In summary, I think Hogwarts students and readers have formed stereotypes of the houses that cloud the reality of the situation.







From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 12 06:58:52 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:58:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hdebfe+1eve@eGroups.com>
References: <hdebfe+1eve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <181985.54793.qm@web46214.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188390

> 
> Joey:
I think the author herself sports this opinion to a certain extent. Even the way she has plotted Quidditch match results, I think she ended up recording her view: 1. Gryffindor, 2. Ravenclaw, 3. Hufflepuff, 4 (or none). Slytherin.


>
>Potioncat:
I read her differently. I saw very strong indications that she ranked them Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Slytherin. With the last two trailing the first two. 


Joey:

Wow! :-) Would you share such instances? I would certainly find them interesting. I think she mentioned in some interview that she thinks she has a lot of Hufflepuff in her.


>
>Potioncat:
She's shown academic success often leads to bad ends (Barty, Percy, Tom Riddle) and that Hufflepuff stands by Harry.


Joey:

She has also shown that Ravenclaw stands by Harry. And she has also shown that both Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff rejoice when Slytherin loses to Gryffindor.


>
>Potioncat:
However, I don't think that's really the case. I think McGonagall's speech was correct, all four houses have produced outstanding witches and wizards and has it's own noble history---(or something like that.)
? 

Joey:
Oh, certainly. I'm with you. :-)
?
Cheers,
~Joey :-) 



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 12 16:26:05 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:26:05 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdg299+kbbo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdhcut+ohl3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188391


Alla:
>
> Yes she did, in order to save her son. I am afraid it does not even come close
to me to what Harry and Ron did. Any benefits for themselves that they were
looking for?

Pippin:
The benefit of knowing they didn't lock her in with a troll and leave her? They
admit themselves that she might not have needed rescuing in the first place if
they hadn't interfered. Also, it is only Harry, not Ron, who thinks of warning
Hermione. Ron is reluctant to go along.

Alla:

If that is your definition of benefit then to use your expression I really do not know how to answer you.  I certainly agree that if Ron was not jerk to her she would not have gone to cry to the bathroom, I however disagree that causal connection between that and what happened could have been predictable in any way shape or form. IMO It is like saying that Snape should be thanked for bring ten year peace to WW by giving prophecy to Voldie.

And of course Ron takes some thought to decide whether to go along or not, it takes him what? One second or two?


Pippin:
The person Draco saved Dumbledore from was Draco, or from the part of Draco that
thought it would be glorious to serve the Dark Lord and be a coldblooded killer
like Bella.

Alla:

I am afraid I still do not follow.  Oh, you are saying that Draco would have killed him otherwise? I guess to me he got scared to kill, not nobly decided to save Dumbledore.


Alla:
And he refused to identify the Trio is your interpretation, mine is that he did
not refuse anything, unfortunately, he was not saying yes or no. Refusal to me
will be to say NO, that is not them. Where does he say ? no, it is not them in
canon?

Pippin:
What good would that do? The suspicion that they're the Trio is the only thing
protecting them from Greyback.

Alla:

 I thought that the suspicion that they may not be Trio protects them from Voldemort. But it is obvious that we see it completely differently, to me it is another moment of Draco not being able to decide if he wants to change or not, certainly NOT a showing of nobility of heart and mercy to his enemies. IMO of course.


Alla:
>
> Yes, he did came back, I can understand how he helped defending Hogwarts, just
as I said upthread, I just do not see it as the same situation. I do not see him
rushing to save anybody against all odds. But yes, he mastered courage worthy of
Gryffindors lol IMO.
>

Pippin:
Then Snape's courage is not the sole example, right? Anyway, rushing to defend
someone against all odds is not always a good thing. James might have been a bit
more effective if he had his wand, no?

Alla:

Eh, where did I say that there are no courageous Slytherins??? Of course Snape's courage is not the only example, there is also Regulus who was certainly courageous and Slughorn mastered courage and
 somebody else I guess. But of course there is more than one example of Slytherin courage. I would certainly argue that it is not typical trait for the House, but it is certainly that rare. What I was trying to say is that I do not see Slytherins using their courage to save people they dislike, unless it was Snape saving Harry.


Pippin:
Regulus's plan was to render Voldemort mortal once more, so that when someone
arose who was capable of matching him in battle, the Dark Lord would die. That
was not necessary in order to protect Kreacher, whom Voldemort believed was
already dead, or Regulus's family, who were purebloods and had never defied the
Dark Lord. But it would save the Muggles and Muggleborns who were Voldemort's
favorite targets.

Alla:

That is a cool speculation, I however do not think that Regulus' plan was caused by anything else than desire to cause revenge for his servant and friend and for himself.

I cannot say you are wrong of course, but I just do not see where Regulus spares any thought to Muggles and Muggleborns' welfare.


Pippin:
Wow, I don't read the Sorting that way at all. To me, it's just a consequence of
the Founders agreeing to pool their knowledge and power, but being unable to
decide on a single philosophy to guide the school. Each had their own idea of
what makes a great wizard, and so they decided to divide the students equally
between them, based on their assessment of the students' abilities and the
students' own preferences.

Alla:

Well, of course this is what Founders wanted, to divide students equally that is, the thing is they decided to divide the students not based on the letters of alphabet (yes, I know, how boring the story will be), they decided to put brave students in one house, smart in another, ambitious in third and hardworking and loyal in fourth, instead of mixing them all together and finding some less innate qualities to divide them upon.

Pippin:
Each house has its strengths, but all are eventually shown to be flawed. The
truly great wizard, as Book Seven shows, IMO, is after all not the one with the
greatest courage, since as you point out, courage can be used for selfish
purposes, but the one who chooses to use his abilities for the common good.

Alla:

I agree with common good part, but I thought that the whole point was to find courage in oneself to use it for common good. I thought it was pretty clear (IMO) that what Harry needed was to find courage to sacrifice himself. So, no I disagree that all abilities are shown equal in book 7 even if all of them are serving good, I thought courage takes first place.


Alla:
> And um, where are intelligent Hufflepufs? There was Cedric who I guess must
have been intelligent if chosen as Champion. And???
>

Pippin:
You think Professor Sprout is stupid??

Alla:

If she was a Hufflepuff student as well in the past I accept the example of course. Was she?

zanooda:

How about Tonks :-)? JKR said she was in Hufflepuff, but we know that to become
an Auror you have to get at least five NEWTs with Exceeds Expectations or
higher. Snape only takes those with an "O" into his NEWT class, so Tonks
probably had an "Outstanding" OWL in Potions to be there.

Alla:

Oh, sure, definitely. I guess they do exist heh.

>>Alla (from earlier post)
> But I mean, nobody would think this seriously, right? Everybody knows that
those are silly stereotypes and people who play sports well can also be talented
in many other subjects and vice versa?

>> Alla later:
>
snip>
What I was saying initially (or at least trying to say) is that Slytherins
would never do, or at least would not typically do what Harry and Ron would do
for Hermione and I still stand by this opinion.


Potioncat:
Stereotyping here, if you ask me. But I'm not throwing stones at you. Because I
had an Ah Ha moment of my own.

IMHO, very few students at Hogwarts would do what Harry and Ron did. Not from
Gryffindor or any other house. So it isn't as if any Gryffindor would have done
the same and no Slytherin would. I don't have any idea what the numbers might
be.

Alla:

Stereotyping? Of course I am! There are plenty of heroes in this world who I am pretty sure also have brains and plenty of ambition to succeed, to prove themselves. The fact that they will go in the dangerous jobs that includes saving people's lives on the daily basis and risking their own does not mean that they would not want world knowing about them or whatever it is they want to get to in life.

 But I believe I am stereotyping based on what book shows me. And well, if you think that no other (or very few) Gryffindors would have done what Harry and Ron did, well that is your right to think so of course, I am just not sure what is your assumption based on.

I think they showed typical Gryffindor behavior. Some examples are as follows:  Neville and Ginny (and yes I know Luna) taking over resistance in DH, resistance that includes standing up to torturers and murderers Carrows. 

And who was saving this first year? Was it Michael Corner? But as I say below to me Trio is the face of Gryffindor thus I think what they do is typical for the House.

Potioncat:
Pippin and I have provided examples of Slytherins rescuing others or
participating in fighting along side others, but we can't provide examples of
immediate daring rescues because we weren't shown any. This is Harry Potter's
story.

Alla:

Well, yes and do not forget about selfless rescues, but isn't Trio supposed to be the face of Gryffindors? And Draco the symbol of Slytherins?


Potioncat:
I think it's significant that the Hogwarts Champion was from Hufflepuff. Of all
the eligible students, he won out. Are we to think he's the exception in
Hufflepuff?

Alla:

Actually, that is a very good point. Except he was not a Hogwarts champion, right? Not really. Harry takes a center stage and he takes a second place to Harry right away, so I guess we are supposed to treat him as face of Hufflepuff, but unfortunately I do not think he was supposed to be a face of Hogwarts. IMO of course.

Potioncat:
<SNIP>
I don't know if this is JRK's fault or ours. The Sorting Hat doesn't sort by
lack of qualities. It sorts for qualities. Being brave and going into Gryffindor
does not mean you are not loyal, ambitious or clever. It just means for some
reason bravery won out. Being loyal and going into Hufflepuff does not mean you
are not brave, clever or ambitious. Maybe it's the quality the student values
most, or maybe it is the strongest quality or maybe the student could go to any
house, but this one is the house who needs another student to balance out the
quartering.

Alla:

Oh, I mean, that is nice interpretation, but to me what Sorting Hat says is that one quality is so dominant in  the students' characters that this is the reason why they are sorted in one house. IMO of course.



Potioncat
<SNIP>
I also think we readers have gotten things backwards. Yes, the Founders valued a
specific quality and the house uses that set of values to sort, but the idea
isn't to label students, but to label houses. Hermione who is brave, loyal,
clever and ambitious can gladly join Gryffindor, the Home of the Brave. By being
in Gryffindor she can aspire for great courage to honor her house. <SNIP>

Alla:

LOL, Houses consist of students, I think to label Houses and not students is a very artificial distinction, IMO of course. But it is not like we are labeling dormitories, we are labeling the qualities, the philosophy House lives by and people form it, no?

Hermione is one of the few exceptions, sure, but is she? She is pretty clear on what she values more ? real courage or books and cleverness, right?

Again, please do not get me wrong, I do not find anything wrong with House system as long as I think of it as symbolical showing of what human being consists of, I think it is fun to think of what courage and/or ambition can or cannot do and sometimes we see more real characters, like mixed, but no I cannot think of Houses as something aspiring in RL.

JMO,

Alla







From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Fri Nov 13 03:30:06 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 03:30:06 -0000
Subject: graduation and respect for British culture
In-Reply-To: <4AEEFA59.7000507@rescueddoggies.com>
Message-ID: <hdijru+10eto@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188392



Incidentally, ignoring British culture can even mean you use words which are possibly offensive in British English.  For example "fanny", as in fanny-pack, does not refer to a person's "behind" as in US English, but a woman's vagina, thus the equivalent term for "fanny-pack" is "bum-bag", "bum" being roughly the British equivalent to the American "fanny".
> 
> Brian (brigrove on fanfiction.net)

Marianne writes:

About 4 years ago I was with friends in Dublin.  I'd walked out the place where we were staying when I said, out loud, Oh wait.  I forgot my fannypack.

My friend was horrified.  I'll never forget the look on her face.  I didn't give her time to say anything.  I went back in, put it on came back out said let's go.  She said that's a fanny pack, I said yes. When she explained to me what it meant in the British culture it was my turn to be horrified that I'd said such a thing outloud in a public place.




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Fri Nov 13 04:02:30 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:02:30 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <hcn6sh+ta2f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdilom+kclo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188393



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wildirishrose01us" <wildirishrose@> wrote:
> 
If Ron was at Shell Cottage for 2+ months, I would think 
> > eventually B&F would ask Ron what he was going to do?  
> > Lurk about their house forever, or go back to H&H.  
> > I'm sure Ron wasn't exactly looking forward to facing 
> > the music when he showed back up to H&H, but he did anyway.  
> > Or maybe B&F put their feet down and told him to go back.
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> You make it sound as if Ron didn't return to Harry and Hermione earlier only because he didn't want to and was afraid to face them:-). The fact is, however, that he wanted to go back to them all the time, but he couldn't because he didn't know where they were.
> 
> Ron was held for some time by the Snatchers, and by the time he managed to escape, Harry and Hermione had already moved to another place. There was no way for him to find them, with their protective spells and all :-). So even if Bill and Fleur "put their feet down", it wouldn't have helped much :-).

Marianne:

True.  I'd forgotten about part.
>





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Nov 13 04:03:22 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:03:22 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdhcut+ohl3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdilqa+5eos@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188394


> Alla:
> 
> I am afraid I still do not follow.  Oh, you are saying that Draco would have killed him otherwise? I guess to me he got scared to kill, not nobly decided to save Dumbledore.

Pippin:
But it was also scary not to kill Dumbledore. Voldemort was going to murder Draco and his entire family. Seems to me Draco had to choose on the basis of something other than being scared, because he didn't have any safe alternatives.

> 
> Alla:
> 
>  I thought that the suspicion that they may not be Trio protects them from Voldemort. But it is obvious that we see it completely differently, to me it is another moment of Draco not being able to decide if he wants to change or not, certainly NOT a showing of nobility of heart and mercy to his enemies. IMO of course.
> 

Pippin:
True, they'll be perfectly safe from Voldemort when Greyback has finished eating them, but I just don't see how that helps :)

If Draco hadn't changed at all,  he would have said who they were at once. Remember when he wanted to help the Heir of Slytherin and hoped that Hermione would be killed?

> 
> Alla:
> 
> That is a cool speculation, I however do not think that Regulus' plan was caused by anything else than desire to cause revenge for his servant and friend and for himself.

Pippin:
Revenge for what? Kreacher had escaped, and as far as Voldemort knows, Regulus has done his bidding.  If Regulus still supports the Dark Lord's aims in general, why does he simply not leave the horcrux where it is and go on being a faithful Death Eater?  

> Alla:
> 
> Well, of course this is what Founders wanted, to divide students equally that is, the thing is they decided to divide the students not based on the letters of alphabet (yes, I know, how boring the story will be), they decided to put brave students in one house, smart in another, ambitious in third and hardworking and loyal in fourth, instead of mixing them all together and finding some less innate qualities to divide them upon.

Pippin:
But the point was that they wanted to preserve their separate philosophies about what makes for a great wizard. Suppose they had each started their own school instead, wouldn't they preferentially admit those who had the  qualities, innate or otherwise, that they favored in their students? Many schools in the real world certainly do that. 

Hufflepuff alone didn't believe in excluding anyone from her house, whether  they were loyal and hardworking or not.  But I can't imagine that she would have allowed a student whose laziness or disloyalty became disruptive to continue, so perhaps it comes to the same thing. 

The Founders banded together because they were the greatest wizards of their time. They were friends. And that means that they must have recognized one another's greatness. 

So Slytherin would have thought the other three had achieved so much because they were  powerful, ambitious purebloods, Gryffindor would have thought them great because they had brave deeds to their names,  Hufflepuff would have attributed her colleagues'  success to hard work and loyalty, and Ravenclaw would have thought they were all smart. 

So, IMO, Harry, in recognizing Snape's courage, is thinking the way that the founders did in the days when the Houses were united. JKR does want us to admire courage, of course, but to me she's not creating a world where only a quarter of the people are brave, but one in which anyone can be brave, but a quarter of the people are most impressed by bravery. 

It seems to me that if, as a reader, you want to fantasize about being recognized for your bravery, then Gryffindor is definitely the house for you. But if, as a denizen of the Potterverse, you are called on to show bravery, then being a Gryffindor will be of no particular help.


> Alla:
> 
> Actually, that is a very good point. Except he was not a Hogwarts champion, right? Not really. Harry takes a center stage and he takes a second place to Harry right away, so I guess we are supposed to treat him as face of Hufflepuff, but unfortunately I do not think he was supposed to be a face of Hogwarts. IMO of course.

Pippin:
It is made very clear that Cedric was chosen by the Goblet as the Hogwarts champion  over all the other Hogwarts students who submitted  their names. Harry is only picked because Barty Jr. confunded the Goblet so it thought that he represented a fourth wizarding school. 

Pippin





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 13 04:17:53 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (Susan A)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:17:53 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
Message-ID: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188395

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist (to email inboxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space)


CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone, Chapter Eleven, Quidditch

As the term moves into November, the weather becomes chilly and attention turns to the start of Quidditch season.  Harry has been kept as a "secret weapon" for as long as Oliver Wood could manage it.  

With their practice taking up so much time, Harry is grateful for the new friendship with Hermione, for she assists Harry & Ron by reviewing their homework assignments, to be sure they're correct.  She won't do work for them, but in reviewing, she shows them anyway what they've messed up.

Hermione also steers Harry to the book Quidditch Through the Ages, from which Harry learns all kinds of fascinating information, such as that Seekers are the ones to whom the most serious accidents typically occur.  

While H/R/H are outside one break period, Harry perusing QTTA and Hermione conjuring blue flames to keep them warm, a limping Snape appears.  Claiming that "books are not to be taken outside the school," Snape takes the book from Harry and also takes 5 points from Gryffindor.

Harry decides, that evening, to ask Snape to return QTTA.  He heads to the staffroom, assuming Snape might be there.  When he receives no answer to his knock, Harry enters.  What he sees surprises him:  Snape, with his robes lifted to reveal a bloody, mangled leg, in conversation with Filch.  Harry overhears Snape referencing "three heads" before Snape sees him and orders him out.  

Back in the Gryffindor common room, Harry & Ron decide that this must mean Snape was trying to get past the three-headed dog on Halloween night, to get to whatever is being guarded.  Hermione is less certain.

Next day the Gryffindor-Slytherin Quidditch match is on, Harry's very first.  He is too nervous to eat but feels somewhat better seeing his friends' "Potter for President" banner.  Things go smoothly until, during both seekers' race toward the Snitch, Marcus Flint blocks Harry and spins him off course.  A foul is called by Madam Hooch (although Dean Thomas thinks it is not adequate; he wants a red card ;)).

Suddenly, Harry's broomstick starts bucking and jerking, clearly jinxed. It takes all his efforts to keep from falling.  After Hagrid announces that no student would know how to perform such Dark Magic, Hermione grabs Hagrid's binoculars and begins scanning the adults in the crowd.  Honing in on Snape, she finds what she's looking for:  someone staring at Harry without blinking, muttering constantly.  She rushes over to sneak up on Snape, knocking Quirrell aside, and sets one of her blue-flamed fires on the hem of his robe.  Enough to break the jinx.

Harry recovers and soon has caught the snitch... in his mouth.  Gryffindor wins!  

Later the trio is at  Hagrid's hut, explaining to Hagrid what had happened and how Snape both tried to jinx Harry during Quidditch and to get past the three-headed dog ("Fluffy," they learn) on Halloween, to get to whatever is hidden below.  Hagrid tells them their notions are rubbish.  While protesting, he does manage (of course) to let slip that what is hidden is between Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel.



1.  Per the narrative, "Hermione had become a bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it" [US hardback, p. 181].  Please discuss the notion of being more relaxed about rule-breaking translating into being a nicer person, either in general terms or re: Hermione specifically.

2.  Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school on the spot?  Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule?  Is this yet another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly, or is it yet another example of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?

3.  When Harry & Ron express their belief that Snape had tried to get past the three-headed dog to whatever it was guarding, Hermione says, "No ? he wouldn't.  I know he's not very nice, but he wouldn't try and steal something Dumbledore was keeping safe."  Ron snaps back, "Honestly, Hermione, you think all teachers are saints or something.  I'm with Harry, I wouldn't put anything past Snape" [p. 183].  

This exchange seems to express much of the crux of the mystery which surrounded Snape all the years we waited for the conclusion of the series:  Is he the kind of person about whom one could rightfully say "I'd never put anything past him"? Or is he to be trusted never to go against something Dumbledore has asked of him?  Was JKR thinking that far ahead at this point??  Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?

4.  Okay, harken back.  The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?

Siriusly Snapey Susan


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 12, The Mirror of Erised, on November 17, 2009.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 13 04:30:54 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:30:54 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdilqa+5eos@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdindu+o8l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188396




> Pippin:
> But it was also scary not to kill Dumbledore. Voldemort was going to murder Draco and his entire family. Seems to me Draco had to choose on the basis of something other than being scared, because he didn't have any safe alternatives.

Alla:

Or he may have been choosing basing on what seemed MORE scary at the moment and I can totally buy that the necessity to take a life seemed when confronted with it to be a scarier thing.

> 
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> >  I thought that the suspicion that they may not be Trio protects them from Voldemort. But it is obvious that we see it completely differently, to me it is another moment of Draco not being able to decide if he wants to change or not, certainly NOT a showing of nobility of heart and mercy to his enemies. IMO of course.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> True, they'll be perfectly safe from Voldemort when Greyback has finished eating them, but I just don't see how that helps :)

Alla:

So, wait, is it your argument that Draco was **protecting them from Greyback**? I would like some more evidence that it was Draco's intent then.

Pippin: 
> If Draco hadn't changed at all,  he would have said who they were at once. Remember when he wanted to help the Heir of Slytherin and hoped that Hermione would be killed?

Alla:

I did not say that Draco did not change at all. Of course he did. I just did not see his change as him showing a selfless courage, especially on the Tower, and neither when he would not say yes or no, and I thought you were bringing Draco as an example of him saving people Slytherins did not like, and to use Draco as such example is what I am strongly objecting to.


> > Alla:
> > 
> > That is a cool speculation, I however do not think that Regulus' plan was caused by anything else than desire to cause revenge for his servant and friend and for himself.
> 
> Pippin:
> Revenge for what? Kreacher had escaped, and as far as Voldemort knows, Regulus has done his bidding.  If Regulus still supports the Dark Lord's aims in general, why does he simply not leave the horcrux where it is and go on being a faithful Death Eater?  

Alla:

Neither do we know that he does that to help Muggles and Muggleborns and revenge for what? For the fact that Voldemort wanted Kreacher whom Regulus loves to do so in the first place and for his upcoming death maybe?


> Pippin:
> But the point was that they wanted to preserve their separate philosophies about what makes for a great wizard. Suppose they had each started their own school instead, wouldn't they preferentially admit those who had the  qualities, innate or otherwise, that they favored in their students? Many schools in the real world certainly do that. 

Alla:

Really? I am prepared to eat my socks, but please I want to know the name school who admit the students whose dominant quality is courage and god forbid they will also be ambitious, clever, hardworking, etc.

Of course there are schools who admit students on different criteria, be they super intelligent or good sportsmen or what say you. The thing is I cannot imagine a school that says that this is the ONLY thing these students can do well and this is their character trait, not something based on exams or scholarships or whatever it is

Pippin:
<SNIP>
>> So, IMO, Harry, in recognizing Snape's courage, is thinking the way that the founders did in the days when the Houses were united. JKR does want us to admire courage, of course, but to me she's not creating a world where only a quarter of the people are brave, but one in which anyone can be brave, but a quarter of the people are most impressed by bravery. 

Alla:

And IMO while JKR is definitely creating a world where anybody can be brave, in this world courage is the quality deserving the utmost respect.


Pippin: 
> It seems to me that if, as a reader, you want to fantasize about being recognized for your bravery, then Gryffindor is definitely the house for you. But if, as a denizen of the Potterverse, you are called on to show bravery, then being a Gryffindor will be of no particular help.

Alla:

Are you talking about me as a reader Pippin or hypothetical reader? Because if you are talking about me, you certainly have the wrong impression. While I definitely love selfless courage and admire people who have it and Gryffindor without any doubt my favorite house, I am sort of SAD that intelligence of house Ravenclaw and ambition of house Slytherin are not recognized more. I mean I understand if she wants to put down the ambition which is fulfilled by kicking other people out of one's way, but this is not the only ambition to have and many people achieve recognition without hurting others on the way to it.

I am too lazy to pick up my dictionary, can you tell me what is denizen means? Is it same as citizen? Thanks, never saw this word before in my life.

> Pippin:
> It is made very clear that Cedric was chosen by the Goblet as the Hogwarts champion  over all the other Hogwarts students who submitted  their names. Harry is only picked because Barty Jr. confunded the Goblet so it thought that he represented a fourth wizarding school. 


Alla:

Yes, I am aware of circumstances leading to it. I was trying to say that symbolically to me Harry is shown to be true Champion of Hogwarts, taking center stage,etc, IMO of course.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 13 04:38:39 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:38:39 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdinsf+lqp0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188397



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan A" <susiequsie23 at ...> wrote:
>
> This message is a Special Notice for all members of
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
> 
> In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist (to email inboxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space)
> 
> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone, Chapter Eleven, Quidditch
> 
><SNIP>

2. Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school
on the spot? Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule? Is this yet
another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly, or is it yet another example
of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?


Alla:

Squeeee, I will answer your other questions tomorrow, although I am sure you know my opinion on this one hehe.

These are the little things which make me hate Severus Snape's character so very much, despite his heroics against Voldemort. I will never ever buy the idea that Hogwarts had such rule for two reasons. Hermione can be trusted with the facts, right? Din't JKR say that if she needed to explain something she gives it to Dumbledore or Hermione?

And of course I find this "rule" to be just plain absurd and interestingly usually Hogwarts rules do have some reasons behind it, no?

This to me is just such a petty low sadism, sucking a joy out of students sitting and **reading** outside. If he was a normal teacher should not he had been pleased that his student is actually reading?

OMG, sorry, but this is one of the two accidents in the first book which makes me so so angry. It is definitely the little things, go figure.

JMO,

Alla




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 13 11:36:34 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:36:34 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdinsf+lqp0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdjgc2+f51p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188398



---  "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> ---  "Susan A" <susiequsie23@> wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > 
> > 
> > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone, Chapter Eleven, Quidditch
> > 
> ><SNIP>
> 
> 2. Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books
> outside school on the spot? Or do you believe it truly was a 
> Hogwarts rule? Is this yet another example of Snape picking 
> on Harry unfairly, or is it yet another example of the trio
> assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> ...
> 
> These are the little things which make me hate Severus Snape's character so very much, despite his heroics against Voldemort. I will never ever buy the idea that Hogwarts had such rule for two reasons. Hermione can be trusted with the facts, right? Din't JKR say that if she needed to explain something she gives it to Dumbledore or Hermione?
> 
> And of course I find this "rule" to be just plain absurd ...
> 
> This to me is just such a petty low sadism, sucking a joy out of students sitting and **reading** outside. ...
>
>...
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>


bboyminn:

This has to be something Snape made up on the spot, though I
don't see why he would harass Harry at that particular moment.

We see students, with their books, studying outside all the 
time when the weather is nice. So, the no books outside
simply can't be a rule.

Now there could be some rule about Library books not being
allowed outside. I believe Harry even says that his book
is not a library book, not that Snape pays any attention. 

With the exception of Library books, most of the books at
Hogwarts are the personal property of students. So, I can
see no reason for Snape's rule to be an actual rule.

Steve/bboyminn




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Nov 13 14:16:02 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:16:02 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdjgc2+f51p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdjpn2+nveu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188399


> bboyminn:
> 
> This has to be something Snape made up on the spot, though I
> don't see why he would harass Harry at that particular moment.



Potioncat:
Like the others, I'll jump in with this question and answer the others later. Boy, SSSusan, you know how to pick your questions! This ranks up there with "Oops" in my opinion.

As I read this incident this time, the Trio have the jar of fire, which they think may be against the rules. When they see Snape they try to conceal it. That conjures an image in my mind of three kids who look like they're up to something. That caught Snape's attention and he came over to see what was going on. Nothing seemed to be amiss, but he did spot the QTTA book. (In answer to a snipped portion, yes, it was a library book.)

We all know Snape. Even those of us who call him "friend" know Snape. He's in front of Celebrity Potter, Jr. who has just been allowed to play Quidditch as a first year AND has been given an exceptional broom, and he's actually studying the game. Taking the book would be a good way to keep Potter from gaining any more advantage.

I fully understand why many readers would think Snape made up the rule; maybe he did, but it would be a silly thing to do to pretend a rule existed that didn't. Besides, we all know that librarians are a little insane when it concerns their books and Madam Pince is one of the worst. I wouldn't be surprised if she did have a rule that her library books cannot go outside. Though I doubt teachers have ever enforced the rule.

Potioncat, waving to Susan ;-)





From carylcb at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 13 15:56:23 2009
From: carylcb at hotmail.com (Augusta)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:56:23 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdjvj7+vh2f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188400

> 1.  Per the narrative, "Hermione had become a bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it" [US hardback, p. 181].  Please discuss the notion of being more relaxed about rule-breaking translating into being a nicer person, either in general terms or re: Hermione specifically.

Augusta:

Hermione is such a snot at the beginning of the story, I would imagine that she started life as a pampered, precocious, only child and developed her superior attitude as a defense mechanism for her lack of social skills -- in other words, she learned early to play to her strengths in intellect and suck up to teachers by knowing and enforcing the rules since the other children didn't like her anyway. Once she realizes that breaking a rule to protect the boys has won her their acceptance, she is smart enough to know that trying to see things from their point of view (i.e., not beating them over the head with every minor infraction) will keep them around and make her life more fun.  

> 
> 2.  Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school on the spot?  Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule?  Is this yet another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly, or is it yet another example of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?

Augusta:

Of course, Snape was making up the rule and picking on Harry unfairly. Aside from his hatred of Harry's father, Snape was trying to cover his involvement with the three-headed dog by distracting Harry with unfair treatment. And, of course, the trio is assuming negative things about Snape -- but maybe not so unfairly since their assumptions prove to be at least partially true. 

> 
> 3.  (snip) Is he the kind of person about whom one could rightfully say "I'd never put anything past him"? Or is he to be trusted never to go against something Dumbledore has asked of him?  Was JKR thinking that far ahead at this point??  Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?

Augusta:

At this point in the story, I would have said, yes, I'd never put anything past him. But, of course, later, on the Astronomy Tower, Snape proved that he could be trusted to never go against *anything* Dumbledore asked of him -- including killing Dumbledore. I do think JKR had Snape mostly sketched out for the entire series at this point. And Ron and Hermione mostly hang onto their initial reactions to Snape until the end, but, although he couldn't admit it even to himself, I think Harry had begun to doubt his assessment of Snape by the time he went through Occlumency lessons and saw Snape's memories.  

> 
> 4.  Okay, harken back.  The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?

Augusta:

Nope, not a clue. Didn't pick up on it at all.






From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 13 16:43:37 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:43:37 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdk2bp+m2nh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188401

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone, Chapter Eleven, Quidditch
 
1.  Per the narrative, "Hermione had become a bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it" [US hardback, p. 181].  Please discuss the notion of being more relaxed about rule-breaking translating into being a nicer person, either in general terms or re: Hermione specifically.

Janelle:
I think that we need to look at this as being Harry and Ron's opinion of Hermione's niceness.  I don't think that JKR is saying that people who break rules are automatically nicer than people who don't.  Throughout the first part of the book, most of Hermione's interactions with Harry and Ron include her yelling at them for breaking rules.  Now that she's become friends with them, she's seen the benefits of having friends.  She's also seen that the reason behind their rule breaking and the consequences they've received aren't as drastic as she had imagined (being expelled!).  She stops yelling at them all the time and so they perceive her as being nicer.


2.  Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school on the spot?  Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule?  Is this yet another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly, or is it yet another example of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?

Janelle:
I like what someone else said about the possibility that Madam Pince would have such a rule (she does freak out about her books!), but that the teachers would never really enforce it.  So, this would be both an instance of the trio making negative assumptions and Snape unfairly picking on Harry.

 
3.  Is Snape the kind of person about whom one could rightfully say "I'd never put anything past him"? Or is he to be trusted never to go against something Dumbledore has asked of him?  Was JKR thinking that far ahead at this point??  Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?

Janelle:
I think that Snape would never go against something that Dumbledore asked him, even if he wasn't happy about it.  He, too, is Dumbledore's man through and through.  I think that JKR was thinking about that- she knew where Snape's loyalties were, but she also knew the challenges that he would face in acting on that loyalty (i.e. dealing with Harry).

I think that Harry does change his opinion about Snape:  he grows from not liking him to loathing him.  Ron and Hermione, however, seem to keep pretty consistent outlooks. 


4.  Okay, harken back.  The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?

Sadly no.  I like to think that, if I were reading the books for the first time now, I would pick up on more of those types of things than I did the first time around (before I went to college and studied literature!)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 13 17:21:18 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:21:18 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdindu+o8l8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdk4ie+mib5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188402

Pippin wrote:
> > It is made very clear that Cedric was chosen by the Goblet as the Hogwarts champion  over all the other Hogwarts students who submitted  their names. Harry is only picked because Barty Jr. confunded the Goblet so it thought that he represented a fourth wizarding school. 
> 
> 
Alla responded:
> 
> Yes, I am aware of circumstances leading to it. I was trying to say that symbolically to me Harry is shown to be true Champion of Hogwarts, taking center stage,etc, IMO of course.
>
Carol notes:

We don't know what would have happened if the rule against underage competitors had not been instituted and Harry had submitted his own name instead of being chosen as the only candidate from a fourth (and possibly fictitious) school. Would the Goblet have chosen Harry, or would it have chosen the older, more experienced Cedric? I think it would have chosen Cedric given how little Harry actually knew at that point. He had help from Crouch!Moody in every task, he had to learn Summoning Charms, Impedimenta, Stupefy, and a number of other spells with Hermione's help, he got through the first task only because he could fly (Krum could have done the same thing but didn't have Crouch!Moody to suggest it), and he survived the second task only because Dobby overheard Crouch!Moody's staged conversation with McGonagall and stole it for him. Unlike the other three, he couldn't perform a Bubblehead Charm, much less transfigure himself into half a shark. He won that task (or rather, came in second to Cedric) not because of his magical ability but because of his "moral fiber" in rescuing hostages who didn't need to be rescued. He and Cedric were pretty much even in the Third Task even though the Imperiused Krum had Crucio'd Cedric.

Before the First Task, almost the whole school regarded Cedric as the *real* Hogwarts champion, as indeed he was since Harry was the "champion" of some other school. Harry's flying ability and the dangers he was facing earned him sympathy and admiration but didn't lessen support for Cedric. Most Hogwarts students (other than the Slytherins and perhaps the Hufflepuffs) apparently felt at that point that they had two champions to cheer for.

But suppose that Harry had not had Hagrid to make sure that he saw the dragons and Barty Jr. to suggest that he play to his strengths (flying)? I doubt that he would have survived the First Task. (Poor Cedric wouldn't have known about them, either, but he did know how to Transfigure a stone into a dog and would probably have done that if he survived the shock.) And Harry could not have charmed or Transfigured himself to so much as enter the water in the Second Task. He had to rely on gillyweed, which he didn't even acquire for himself, to enter the water. True, he did know how to deal with the grindylows, but so did Cedric and Krum, and, true, he did get to his hostage before either of them (only slightly before Cedric), but he had help solving the riddle and could not come up with a way of surviving underwater by himself, nor was the solution that Crouch!Moody provided any reflection on his magical abilities.

Carol, who doubts that any of the champions would have survived without cheating adults helping them but thinks that Harry would have had the least chance of all given how little he knew at that point




From dk59us at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 13 17:36:30 2009
From: dk59us at yahoo.com (dk59us)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:36:30 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdk2bp+m2nh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdk5eu+uia5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188403



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jelly92784" <jelly92784 at ...> wrote:
>
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone, Chapter Eleven, Quidditch
>  
[major snips]
> 4.  Okay, harken back.  The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?
> 
Janelle:
>Sadly no.  I like to think that, if I were reading the books for the first time now, I would pick up on more of those types of things than I did the first time around (before I went to college and studied literature!)
>

Eustace_Scrubb:
I also had no idea that anyone other than Snape was responsible for the jinx.  But it was much more fun to be just as surprised as Harry was when he found out from Quirrell!

Cheers,

Eustace_Scrubb





From bart at moosewise.com  Fri Nov 13 18:39:31 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:39:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdjpn2+nveu@eGroups.com>
References: <hdjpn2+nveu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4AFDA7E3.70707@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188404

potioncat wrote:
> I fully understand why many readers would think Snape made up the rule; maybe he did, but it would be a silly thing to do to pretend a rule existed that didn't. Besides, we all know that librarians are a little insane when it concerns their books and Madam Pince is one of the worst. I wouldn't be surprised if she did have a rule that her library books cannot go outside. Though I doubt teachers have ever enforced the rule.
>   

Bart:
I'm not a librarian, but I did spend 9 years working in a publishing 
company whose main customer base was libraries, including handling all 
the customer support questions that the regular support people couldn't 
handle. Specifically, I was working on creating online and CD-ROM based 
versions of the reference publications, and the librarians would have a 
fit over the tiniest differences between the online and the print 
versions of the books.

In any case, I find myself mostly in agreement with potioncat. I do 
believe that the no library books outside the school was a rule, 
although I suspect that it was supposed to be a secondary offense; 
something to add on if a book is lost or damaged, or an excuse to tell 
the student to stop. Sevvy's relationship to Harry was colored by the 
fact that everybody thought how great Harry was when he reminded him so 
much of his rival, and that Harry was what cost Lily her life. Having 
Lily's eyes looking back at him probably sent him on a major guilt trip, 
as well, and he blamed Harry for all the bad feelings Harry's presence 
brought to him. So it is not surprising that, when Sevvy sees Harry up 
to no good, rather than say, "Never mind, carry on" he had to find 
SOMETHING to pin on Harry, and latched on the library book.

Bart



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 13 19:53:40 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:53:40 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdjpn2+nveu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdkdg4+ie4p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188405


Potioncat:
Like the others, I'll jump in with this question and answer the others later.
Boy, SSSusan, you know how to pick your questions! This ranks up there with
"Oops" in my opinion. <SNIP>

Alla:

Oh yes it does! Oops is another one which makes incredibly angry lol, I think I feel hatred of the same intensity when I read these two accidents. Unless of course we remember Snape twins, that makes me laugh, but then I want to strangle Snape anyway.


Potioncat wrote:
<SNIP>
> I fully understand why many readers would think Snape made up the rule; maybe
he did, but it would be a silly thing to do to pretend a rule existed that
didn't. Besides, we all know that librarians are a little insane when it
concerns their books and Madam Pince is one of the worst. I wouldn't be
surprised if she did have a rule that her library books cannot go outside.
Though I doubt teachers have ever enforced the rule. <SNIP>

Alla:

Why would it be silly thing to pretend that rule existed if it did not, if it helps Snape to needle Harry in any way possible? Do you think there was a rule that allowed Snape to overrule Gryffindor practice that already was scheduled or he just used his teacher's authority and abused it on the spot there?
The purpose of the library is to **loan** books, to let the reader enjoy the books **outside** the library, is it not? Now, come to think of it, if this was some sort of the "rare" book, sure I guess I would think there is a tiny possibility that this book could only be read inside, but this one? Library probably has tons of copies of this book since most wizarding kids who are Quidditch fans interested in this book. And even restricted sections books could be taken outside, right? And they are rare books and suddenly "Quidditch around the ages" gets stricter treatment? I do not buy it at all.

There is also Hermione who LOVES to read, are you saying that she would not have been whining non stop to Harry and Ron if she would not have been able to read the books from library anywhere she pleases?






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Nov 13 21:52:28 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:52:28 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdkkes+mu9o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188406

 
> 1.  Per the narrative, "Hermione had become a bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it" [US hardback, p. 181].  Please discuss the notion of being more relaxed about rule-breaking translating into being a nicer person, either in general terms or re: Hermione specifically.

Pippin:
I think the boys perceived her as nicer because she wasn't nagging them any more.  It's tiresome to have someone telling you things you already know all the time. 


> 
> 2.  Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school on the spot?  Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule?  Is this yet another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly, or is it yet another example of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?

Pippin:
Hogwarts is a thousand years old. I'd bet there are lots of rules that are no longer enforced. Books were once rare and expensive items and this was probably true even in the WW, so I don't find it hard to imagine that such a rule existed.  

That said, Snape's leg was hurting and  he thinks  that Harry is not only just as arrogant as his father, he is just as insanely good at getting into trouble. Protecting Harry was not going to be a light matter even if  Voldemort never came back to power. I'm not surprised Snape was grouchier than usual. 

> 
> 3.  When Harry & Ron express their belief that Snape had tried to get past the three-headed dog to whatever it was guarding, Hermione says, "No ? he wouldn't.  I know he's not very nice, but he wouldn't try and steal something Dumbledore was keeping safe."  Ron snaps back, "Honestly, Hermione, you think all teachers are saints or something.  I'm with Harry, I wouldn't put anything past Snape" [p. 183].  
> 
> This exchange seems to express much of the crux of the mystery which surrounded Snape all the years we waited for the conclusion of the series:  Is he the kind of person about whom one could rightfully say "I'd never put anything past him"? Or is he to be trusted never to go against something Dumbledore has asked of him?  Was JKR thinking that far ahead at this point??  Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?

Pippin:
I think the revelation of Snape's character is central to the series and was planned all the way through. 
 
Ron is always of the "poisonous toadstools don't change their spots" school, while Hermione is reluctant to think the worst. Even when she thinks he's killed Dumbledore, she doesn't want to use the word "evil."

All through the series, Harry is too quick to suspect anyone who treats him badly, and never suspicious of anyone who treats him well, and Ron is just the same. 


> 
> 4.  Okay, harken back.  The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?
> 

Pippin:
No idea at all.

Now for my own question. If safety was important to you, would you want your child to play Quidditch?


Pippin





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 13 22:21:14 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:21:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdk4ie+mib5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdkm4q+nu8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188407

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> true, he did get to his hostage before either of them 


zanooda:

Harry found the hostages before the rest of the champions only because Moaning Myrtle showed him the way :-). Outside help again... :-).




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 14 06:32:54 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 06:32:54 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdlium+9jsi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188408

Zara:
Thanks, SSSusan, for a fine summary and interesting questions!

> 1.  Per the narrative, "Hermione had become a bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it" [US hardback, p. 181].  Please discuss the notion of being more relaxed about rule-breaking translating into being a nicer person, either in general terms or re: Hermione specifically.

Zara:
My own understanding is that this is not offered to us as a general principle of human behavior, but that it is one of (many) instances in which the narrator offers us Harry's perception without necessarily flagging it as such explicitly. A boy with a certain disregard for the rules, is likely to find a companion nicer to be around, if she is not routinely taking him to task for his rulebreaking.

> 2.  Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school on the spot?  Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule?  Is this yet another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly,...?

Zara:
We lack the data to determine this one way or another. 

> or is it yet another example of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?

Zara:
I feel it reasonable to guess it is, at any rate, an example of this. I doubt Harry knows all of the school rules. I suspect he and Ron have better things to do than familiarize themselves with the school rules. <g>

> 3. This exchange seems to express much of the crux of the mystery which surrounded Snape all the years we waited for the conclusion of the series:  Is he the kind of person about whom one could rightfully say "I'd never put anything past him"? Or is he to be trusted never to go against something Dumbledore has asked of him?  

Zara:
No, and yes. <bg>

> Was JKR thinking that far ahead at this point??  Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?

Zara:
I think she was thinking this far ahead. The book is the series in microcosm, as far as Snape is concerned. He swoops about like a bat, is seen doing bad things, and is the obvious villain - only he's not a villain at all.

I also think she thought this far ahead because he's all tied in to the backstory. Why did Voldemort decide to kill Harry? Because Snape reported a Prophecy to him. Why did Harry live? Because his mother's sacrifice protected him. Why did her sacrifice have this effect? Because she was given a choice to stand aside - because Snape asked Voldemort to spare her. I don't think PS/SS came to be published while Rowling still had not worked out the details of what had happened in the past of her series.

Hermione changes her mind, IMO. She defends him as a teacher in this book. In later books, she defends him as a guy who tried to save Harry's life.

> 4.  Okay, harken back.  The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?

Zara:
Nope, I fell for the red herring hook, line, and sinker.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Nov 14 07:35:41 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:35:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdlium+9jsi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdlmkd+c0vg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188409

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ZaraG" <zgirnius at ...> wrote:

> > 2.  Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school on the spot?  Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule?  Is this yet another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly,...?
 
Zara:
> We lack the data to determine this one way or another. 
 
> > or is it yet another example of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?

Geoff:
Is it unfair to assume things about a person based on their track record?
Snape has, from the outset, displayed a dislike of Harry and has taken 
points from him for little or no reason and thus shown a lack of impartiality 
towards him and towards Gryffindor. Personally, I see virtually no evidence 
of his being positive in their direction at all.

Zara:
> I feel it reasonable to guess it is, at any rate, an example of this. I doubt Harry knows all of the school rules. I suspect he and Ron have better things to do than familiarize themselves with the school rules. <g>

Geoff:
I wonder how many pupils in a school familiarise themselves with the less 
common rules until they crop up in a situation?

As a side example, I walk very frequently on land belonging the the National 
Trust, the UK's biggest conservation group which owns huge swathes of land 
and stately homes etc. When I go onto their land, there is usually a sign 
indicating that the land is in their possession and on the back of the sign is a 
long list of rules and by-laws running to many paragraphs and in small print.
Be honest, have I ever read these rules? Can I quote them or point you to them?
No way.




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 14 07:55:08 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:55:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
References: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <242714.35079.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188410

>3. When Harry & Ron express their belief that Snape had tried to get past the three-headed dog to whatever it was guarding, Hermione says, "No ? he wouldn't. I know he's not very nice, but he wouldn't try and steal something Dumbledore was keeping safe." Ron snaps back, "Honestly, Hermione, you think all teachers are saints or something. I'm with Harry, I wouldn't put anything past Snape" [p. 183]. 

This exchange seems to express much of the crux of the mystery which surrounded Snape all the years we waited for the conclusion of the series: Is he the kind of person about whom one could rightfully say "I'd never put anything past him"? Or is he to be trusted never to go against something Dumbledore has asked of him? 

Joey:

Well, Ron did sound right when I read the book for the first time. Snape's loyalty to Hogwarts / DD was voiced out only by Hagrid and Hermione - no other incident seems to illustrate that point at this juncture of Book 1.
?

>Was JKR thinking that far ahead at this point?? 
?

Joey:
?

I think so. She seems to have sketched all her characters at a high-level (the outline, at least) before she started writing the books.
?

>Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?
?

Joey:
?
?
Ron never changed his basic opinion. Harry seems to have had after thoughts post the SWM chapter in OoTP though it is back to usual in HBP. Hermione changes during mid Book 1, is back to her basic opinion by end Book 1 and changes again post HBP climax till the final reveal on Severus Snape.
?

Cheers,
~Joey :-)


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Nov 14 15:00:00 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:00:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdhcut+ohl3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdmglg+dkgr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188411

> >Alla:> 
But I believe I am stereotyping based on what book shows me. And well, if you think that no other (or very few) Gryffindors would have done what Harry and Ron did, well that is your right to think so of course, I am just not sure what is your assumption based on.

Potioncat:
Just to make sure we're on the same page, here's the "Webster's New World Dictionary" definition, "stereotype: n. a way of thinking about a person, group, etc. that follows a fixed, common pattern, paying no attention to individual differences. v. to follow a stereotype in thinking about a person, group, etc." Common stereotypes are girls can't throw; football players are dumb. 

I'm not sure if there is a word for generic description based on observation. I could say that the Slytherin Quidditch team during Harry's years was a gang of rough, underhanded players and I think that would be accurate. To say that Quidditch players are rough unruly kids would be a stereotype.

We need to be careful of stereotypes in the WW as well as in RL. Sometimes they sneak up on you. My stereotype of Gryffindors was that they were brave and noble and took care of weaker folks. SWM blew that one out of the water.

 

>>Alla: 
Well, yes and do not forget about selfless rescues, but isn't Trio supposed to be the face of Gryffindors? And Draco the symbol of Slytherins?

Potioncat:
Are you saying that Harry is just another Gryffindor with no exceptional qualities? Because I think he is the bravest of the brave. I don't think every Gryffindor would have reacted like he did to the troll. No offense to Gryffindor; I just think it took exceptional courage for a pair of 11-year-old to face a troll. 



>> Alla:
Oh, I mean, that is nice interpretation, but to me what Sorting Hat says is that one quality is so dominant in the students' characters that this is the reason why they are sorted in one house. IMO of course.

Potioncat:
I used to think that too and I think it's because we as a group hyper-analyze everything. Can you point me to the statement that makes you think that?

I think the Sorting Hat uses the qualities to select the House the student will go into, but that quality is not supposed to limit or define the student. Look at how different the Gryffindors of Harry's time are. Percy, Cormac, George, Neville. Lavender, Romilda.

Here is what the Sorting Hat says to Harry, "Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent, oh my goodness, yes--and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting
So where shall I put you?"

I read Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, Slytherin or possibly Hufflepuff depending on whether the thirst to prove himself indicated a willingness to work hard or ambition. When Harry says not Slytherin, the Sorting Hat says how Slytherin would fit.  Then the Sorting Hat picked one, based on Harry's request. It sounds to me as if Harry would have fit well in several houses, but I think he was more comfortable in Gryffindor than he would have been in Ravenclaw.

 
>>Alla:
LOL, Houses consist of students, I think to label Houses and not students is a very artificial distinction, IMO of course. But it is not like we are labeling dormitories, we are labeling the qualities, the philosophy House lives by and people form it, no?

Potioncat:
Yes, we are labeling the qualities and philosophy the House lives by. The House is not a building, but a collection of students. The Houses have had their reputations and standards for centuries and these new first years are coming in, with very little idea of who they are. 

So a student is sorted and something like this would happen, "Welcome to Gryffindor. We are known for our courage." Or "Welcome to Ravenclaw. We are known for our wit and knowledge." The student must believe (or hope) the Sorting Hat saw that quality in him and then can be proud of his trait. (Whether a student is ever put in a house he doesn't want, I couldn't say.) But it isn't "Welcome to Gryffindor, we aren't loyal or clever or ambitious, but boy are we brave!"



>>Alla: 
Hermione is one of the few exceptions, sure, but is she? She is pretty clear on what she values more ? real courage or books and cleverness, right?

Potioncat:
Everything above this point that I've written is from inside the story. I don't think the Sorting Hat or the WW is concerned about the worth of one trait over another. As for Hermione, I think she wanted Gryffindor for reasons that are not fully revealed; that's the House she asked for and was given.

 What the author thinks about the four traits is a different discussion. 


>> Alla:
Again, please do not get me wrong, I do not find anything wrong with House system as long as I think of it as symbolical showing of what human being consists of, I think it is fun to think of what courage and/or ambition can or cannot do and sometimes we see more real characters, like mixed, but no I cannot think of Houses as something aspiring in RL.


Potioncat:
Sorry, you've lost me. 







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 14 16:20:14 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:20:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdmglg+dkgr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdmlbu+3mk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188412

Alla:
Well, yes and do not forget about selfless rescues, but isn't Trio supposed to
be the face of Gryffindors? And Draco the symbol of Slytherins?

Potioncat:
Are you saying that Harry is just another Gryffindor with no exceptional
qualities? Because I think he is the bravest of the brave. I don't think every
Gryffindor would have reacted like he did to the troll. No offense to
Gryffindor; I just think it took exceptional courage for a pair of 11-year-old
to face a troll.


Alla:

I  am not saying that Harry is just another Gryffindor. I think he is very brave and I certainly  cannot say whether his courage is five percent higher or twenty percent lower than usual Gryffindor, but yes I do not believe he is meant to be portrayed as exceptionally brave, meaning so much braver than his house mates.

As you said it is his story and thus we see his and his friends' deeds, but I do not believe that it would so out of the question for other Gryffindors to conduct them. For example I do not believe that Ginny's attempt to retrieve the Sword required any less courage than facing the Troll. And I certainly agree with Dumbledore that Neville's attempt to stop Trio in book 1 required a lot of courage which was just applied in a different way.


>> Alla:
Oh, I mean, that is nice interpretation, but to me what Sorting Hat says is that
one quality is so dominant in the students' characters that this is the reason
why they are sorted in one house. IMO of course.

Potioncat:
I used to think that too and I think it's because we as a group hyper-analyze
everything. Can you point me to the statement that makes you think that?

Alla:

Which one of Sorting Hat's songs would you like me to quote? Because I am seriously too lazy to quote all of them . I thought Hat was being very clear ? students with this quality go there, with this one to another House?


Potioncat:
I think the Sorting Hat uses the qualities to select the House the student will
go into, but that quality is not supposed to limit or define the student. Look
at how different the Gryffindors of Harry's time are. Percy, Cormac, George,
Neville. Lavender, Romilda. <SNIP>

Alla:

Where do you get that this quality is not supposed to define the student? All these students are extremely brave are they not? I mean granted we do not know one way or another about Romilda, but she did not show any cowardice at least that I remember of.

Of course I sure hope that bravery is not the only thing that their characters are consist of, but again to me it is the question of domination. I think I am not expressing myself too clearly.

I think it is NOT realistic for person to be defined by one quality AT ALL, but I believe this is what books shows me, thus I am saying that vast majority of students are NOT realistic characters.

Potioncat:
Here is what the Sorting Hat says to Harry, "Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad
mind either. There's talent, oh my goodness, yes--and a nice thirst to prove
yourself, now that's interesting
So where shall I put you?"

I read Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, Slytherin or possibly Hufflepuff depending on
whether the thirst to prove himself indicated a willingness to work hard or
ambition. When Harry says not Slytherin, the Sorting Hat says how Slytherin
would fit. Then the Sorting Hat picked one, based on Harry's request. It sounds
to me as if Harry would have fit well in several houses, but I think he was more
comfortable in Gryffindor than he would have been in Ravenclaw.

Alla:

And to me it was always pretty clear that Sorting Hat never intended to put Harry anywhere but in Gryffindor. I always thought Hat was just playing games with Harry, testing him. However, sure it is a possibility that he could have fit in other houses, so my question is don't you think that 95% of the students should have had the same conversation with the Hat that Harry had in order for all of this to be a tiny bit realistic?

Potioncat:
<SNIP>
So a student is sorted and something like this would happen, "Welcome to
Gryffindor. We are known for our courage." Or "Welcome to Ravenclaw. We are
known for our wit and knowledge." The student must believe (or hope) the Sorting
Hat saw that quality in him and then can be proud of his trait. (Whether a
student is ever put in a house he doesn't want, I couldn't say.) But it isn't
"Welcome to Gryffindor, we aren't loyal or clever or ambitious, but boy are we
brave!"

Alla:

I guess to me it is a given if House known for intelligence and not anything else that means that that is what most members of this House are intelligent first and foremost. You are saying that we do not hear that they are NOT so and so, that means that they ARE so and so? This does not work for me, I need an affirmative statement.

>> Alla:
Again, please do not get me wrong, I do not find anything wrong with House
system as long as I think of it as symbolical showing of what human being
consists of, I think it is fun to think of what courage and/or ambition can or
cannot do and sometimes we see more real characters, like mixed, but no I cannot
think of Houses as something aspiring in RL.


Potioncat:
Sorry, you've lost me.

Alla:

Let me try again then. You know how painters who did allegoric paintings devoted to Greek or Roman period often portrayed Wisdom or Anger or whatever quality as Woman?

So here we have an allegory, right? We have Woman which symbolizes wisdom. Some time ago I started thinking about houses that way, you know? I started to think about Houses as allegories for intelligence, courage, ambition, etc. And I am thinking that maybe she was interested in showing how people with courage, ambition or what say behave during the hard times, times of war. But that to me means that she for the most part was not interested in realistic portrayal of the characters, I mean, save few exceptions, etc. I wonder if she was thinking in symbols and allegories primarily when she was thinking about Houses, and maybe she was saying that in Harry and Hermione, and maybe somebody else we have symbolic unity of the Houses.

I mean same as the dragon whom Trio frees to me is a symbol of Hogwarts for example. Do not wake up sleeping dragon, etc.

Does that make more sense?

Alla





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Nov 14 22:12:04 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:12:04 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdmlbu+3mk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdn9vk+c2tr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188413

> Alla:> 
> As you said it is his story and thus we see his and his friends' deeds, but I do not believe that it would so out of the question for other Gryffindors to conduct them. For example I do not believe that Ginny's attempt to retrieve the Sword required any less courage than facing the Troll. And I certainly agree with Dumbledore that Neville's attempt to stop Trio in book 1 required a lot of courage which was just applied in a different way.

Potioncat:
Oh, I think I get it now. In an earlier post you said that you didn't think Slytherins would rush in to save someone the way Harry and Ron did. I think that is stereotyping, but at the same time, I think that what Harry and Ron did was so brave, that not many students of any house would have had that courage.

I think among all the houses there might have been students brave enough. I don't know. I just wouldn't say something along the line of "All Gryffindors would be brave enough to do this but no one else would be." 

And within Gryffindor we see many different types of courage.

> 
> Alla:
> 
> Which one of Sorting Hat's songs would you like me to quote? Because I am seriously too lazy to quote all of them . I thought Hat was being very clear ? students with this quality go there, with this one to another House?

Potioncat:
I think we are not communicating; it sounds as if we read the Sorting Hat differently but I'm not sure if we agree or disagree. 

Yes, students are chosen for Houses based on four main traits. That doesn't mean each student arrives with only one trait. So a student would not go into Gryffindor if he were *not* brave. 


> 
> Alla:
> 
> Where do you get that this quality is not supposed to define the student? All these students are extremely brave are they not? I mean granted we do not know one way or another about Romilda, but she did not show any cowardice at least that I remember of.
snp
> 
> I think it is NOT realistic for person to be defined by one quality AT ALL, but I believe this is what books shows me, thus I am saying that vast majority of students are NOT realistic characters.

Potioncat:
Yes, they are all brave. I don't mean it doesn't describe them. We agree, it is not realistic to define or describe the students by only one trait. I'm just saying that while one trait is used to sort them, it does not define or limit them at Hogwarts or in the WW. They may have a good amount of the other houses traits as well.

 
> Alla:
> 
> And to me it was always pretty clear that Sorting Hat never intended to put Harry anywhere but in Gryffindor. I always thought Hat was just playing games with Harry, testing him. However, sure it is a possibility that he could have fit in other houses, so my question is don't you think that 95% of the students should have had the same conversation with the Hat that Harry had in order for all of this to be a tiny bit realistic?

Potioncat:
Wow, we do read this differently! I left out the part where the Sorting Hat says that sorting Harry is difficult. Yes, I think the Sorthing Hat took a moment or two to consider Harry's attributes. And I think he could have correctly sorted him into any of several houses. Same for Hermione, DD, Percy and I'm sure others. That's why some students take longer than others. I don't think the Sorting Hat was playing with Harry.
> 


> 
> Alla:
> 
> I guess to me it is a given if House known for intelligence and not anything else that means that that is what most members of this House are intelligent first and foremost. You are saying that we do not hear that they are NOT so and so, that means that they ARE so and so? This does not work for me, I need an affirmative statement.

Potioncat:
DD is known for his inventions and knowledge--that's cleverness. He's known for defeating GG--that's courage.

Tonks, a Hufflepuff is an auror. An auror needs to be brave. If the WW thought only Gryffindor's were brave they wouldn't accept students from Hufflepuff.

Throughout the series there are examples of students who each have several positive traits--not just the one set associated with their own house.

If you could use science or magic to evaluate a person for 4 traits--courage, loyalty, wit, ambition--you would find differing amounts in each person. Some may have very little of a trait, and some may have great amounts of all. 

What if the students were sorted by the color they were wearing on the train. Everyone with yellow goes here, blue over there, red in the middle and black to the side. Only hardly anyone would be wearing just one color. So it would depend on how much of the color the student was wearing, or if the colors of his clothes were pretty equal, maybe he would go the the area with the least amount of students. He fits there as well as the other sites.

> 
> Alla:
snip
> 
> So here we have an allegory, right? We have Woman which symbolizes wisdom. Some time ago I started thinking about houses that way, you know? I started to think about Houses as allegories for intelligence, courage, ambition, etc. And I am thinking that maybe she was interested in showing how people with courage, ambition or what say behave during the hard times, times of war. But that to me means that she for the most part was not interested in realistic portrayal of the characters, I mean, save few exceptions, etc. I wonder if she was thinking in symbols and allegories primarily when she was thinking about Houses, and maybe she was saying that in Harry and Hermione, and maybe somebody else we have symbolic unity of the Houses.


Potioncat:
Got it.
Here's where I think it's important to identify when we're having a literary discussion and when we're discussing the story from within. I've been talking about the houses as I see them in this WW where brooms can fly and women can turn into cats.

I would take a different stand if we're talking about the houses as symbols, and how JKR considers the traits or how she treats them in this body of work. 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 14 22:58:48 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:58:48 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdn9vk+c2tr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdncn8+4t5k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188414

Potioncat:
<SNIP>
I think among all the houses there might have been students brave enough. I
don't know. I just wouldn't say something along the line of "All Gryffindors
would be brave enough to do this but no one else would be."

Alla:

No, I would not say that either. But I certainly would say that Gryffindors supposed to show the highest courage IMO, same as Slytherins highest ambition and disdain for Muggles and Muggleborns, Ravenclaws highest intelligence. IMO of course.


Potioncat:
I think among all the houses there might have been students brave enough. I
don't know. I just wouldn't say something along the line of "All Gryffindors
would be brave enough to do this but no one else would be."

Alla:

Tell me this. When you think about Gryffindor, would you call it a House of Peter Pettigrew?

Because I never ever would. Not because I forget that Peter was in that House, but because in general she makes me *sort of forget* based on how House in general conducts itself, but she can never make me forget that Slytherin is the house of Draco Malfoy for some reason, even though Peter's conduct was so much more horrible on so many levels.

We are back to the problem I described earlier. All those good brave Slytherins (which I still do not think did anything close to Troll rescue) are not the students of our days.


Potioncat:
I think we are not communicating; it sounds as if we read the Sorting Hat
differently but I'm not sure if we agree or disagree.

Yes, students are chosen for Houses based on four main traits. That doesn't mean
each student arrives with only one trait. So a student would not go into
Gryffindor if he were *not* brave.

Alla:

Well, of course not, but to me it does mean that each student arrives with one (or two I guess like Slytherins) predominant traits which yes, it sounds like to me will determine their life for the next seven years.


Potioncat:
Yes, they are all brave. I don't mean it doesn't describe them. We agree, it is
not realistic to define or describe the students by only one trait. I'm just
saying that while one trait is used to sort them, it does not define or limit
them at Hogwarts or in the WW. They may have a good amount of the other houses
traits as well.

Alla:

Right, but while real person will show a different array of the traits depending on the situation one finds themselves in life, it seems to me that your house in WW does define who you are but for very few exceptions. 


Potioncat:
Got it.
Here's where I think it's important to identify when we're having a literary
discussion and when we're discussing the story from within. I've been talking
about the houses as I see them in this WW where brooms can fly and women can
turn into cats.

I would take a different stand if we're talking about the houses as symbols, and
how JKR considers the traits or how she treats them in this body of work.


Alla:

Well, but that's the thing, I totally agree with you ? it is important to qualify the different mode of discussions we are having. But my point is that I am unable to talk about houses as I see them in WW, to me they can only be symbols, because if I look at them as something realistic, from inside of WW,  it just does not look good to me, you know?

I think the idea of sorting people per personalities' traits is not a good one, stereotyping one, does not do those students any good, etc, etc.

So if we are talking about Houses as symbols, sure I think it all fits, otherwise it just does not play well for me.

JMO,

Alla







From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 15 08:13:21 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:13:21 -0000
Subject: Chapt Disc PS/SS 10, The Halloween Long - Houses
In-Reply-To: <hdmglg+dkgr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdod72+hr19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188415



--- "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> > >Alla:> 
> But I believe I am stereotyping based on what book shows me. And well, if you think that no other (or very few) Gryffindors would have done what Harry and Ron did, ...

> Potioncat:
> ...
> 
> ...
>  
> 
> >>Alla: 
> Well, yes and do not forget about selfless rescues, but isn't Trio supposed to be the face of Gryffindors? And Draco the symbol of Slytherins?
> 
> Potioncat:
> Are you saying that Harry is just another Gryffindor with no exceptional qualities? Because I think he is the bravest of the brave. I don't think every Gryffindor would have reacted like he did to the troll. ...
> 
> 

bboyminn:

Interesting subject, and one I've tackled before. On one hand,
I do think the Houses stereotype certain normal human traits.
That is, the Houses attributes are symbolic of real life. 

However, within the confines of the stories, I think the House
characteristics define a general part of a person's nature,
but they do not completely define that person. 

In Peter Petigrew, we see that a certain type of bravery can
be considered cowardly. I think Peter had to overcome a lot
of personal fear to do what he did, and that is a form of
bravery, but the things he had to overcome fear to do, were
themselves very cowardly.

Also, while Harry, Ron, and Hermione are certainly courageous,
they are also curious, determined, in a sense smart, a bit
reckless, they do have a certain disregard for the rules, but
in a good way, and they have many other traits that make up
their personalities. 

I think what Hermione learns is you can't be a slave to rules. 
Rules are made by people, rules are fallible, rules can change
with the wind, rules can be corrupted, and while most rules 
fit the general case, they are not always appropriate to the
specific case. 

Rules are meant to be broken, but only under the right
circumstances. 

Let's look at the other Gryffindors. Where were they when
Harry was off on his many adventures? Asleep and safe in 
their warm toasty beds, minding their own business. Does
that mean they are not brave? Does that mean they when the
fight comes to them, they will not fight? I don't think so.

The difference is, that the rest of the Gryffindors are 
only brave enough to fight when a fight comes. But Harry,
Ron, Hermione, and later others of a few select Gryffindors,
are willing to go to the fight, not wait for it to come. 
Some are self-determined leaders (Harry) and others are
followers...yes, brave followers, but followers none the
less.

I think this give us a clue to what primarily sets Harry, but
also a few others, apart. Harry is willing to take the 
initiative. He is willing to take determined, and what he
sees as, necessary action without waiting for others to tell
him. He leads, he doesn't wait to follow. Harry will do what
must be done, because it must be done. 

It is these secondary characteristics that make Harry unique.
These are the things that make him determined to 'save people'. 
But, for these secondary aspects to work, you must have the 
courage to take the initiative, and have the courage to 
assert a determined will to act. 

So, I don't think any of the Houses are as simple as their
core value. If we took any character from any House, I'm sure
we could find the secondary characteristic, that allow them
to reflect their House core value in a unique way. 

As Phineas points out, Slytherins are brave too, just brave
in a different, and far more self-serving, way. They aren't 
afraid to fight, but they are wise enough to know when it is
better to lose the current battle in order to live to fight
again another day. 

So, while the House characteristics are true, what defines
any given characters is far more complex than a simple single
general House characteristic. 

As I've said, no matter how brave Harry is, if he isn't 
willing to take the initiative, and doesn't have the 
determination to follow through, no one gets rescued, and
nothing gets done. Harry just stays cozy in his bed, like
so many brave Gryffindors, and leaves it up to others to sort
out. 

I think House primary characteristics are something to be
aspired to. Take Neville, he aspires, under pressure, to be
more like his father, and eventually succeeds. I suspect
there are cunning clever Slytherins who are not evil racist, 
they are just good businessmen intent on doing their best
to get rich. I suspect there are hard working Hufflepufs
that have near genius intelligence. I suspect that there
are near genius Ravenclaws who will apply their genius
an obtain wealth through hard work and determination.

So, while a House attribute is something to aspire to, it
is a long collection of complex secondary characteristic
that will determine how the primary attribute will manifest
itself.

Further, we can have brave cowards, we can have stupid
geniuses (Riddle), we can have people who work hard at being
lazy, and every other odd combination of self-contradictory
attributes that you can imagine. 

So, a House attribute can be something to be valued and
admired, but that one attribute doesn't completely define
a person. That one attribute alone doesn't determine the 
many varied and complex ways it can manifest itself.

But then...that's just my opinion.

Steve/bboyminn





From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 15 15:44:26 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:44:26 -0000
Subject: Regulus Black and "Slytherin" traits (WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10...)
In-Reply-To: <hd82t9+g6ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdp7kq+7c2t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188416

> Potioncat:
> Let's look at some Slytherins in challenging situations.
> 
> Regulus didn't secure his safety; he secured Kreacher's. I just wish he had been clever enough to say to Kreacher, "Get *us* out of here." 

Zara:
Oh, I read this rather differently. I don't think it was a failure of cleverness on Regulus's part that he did not have Kreacher rescue him. I think it was a deliberate choice to die.

I agree with Hermione's reasoning in "Kreacher's Tale". Regulus understood that the knowledge of Voldemort's Horcrux which he had obtained, and his loss of faith in the pureblood cause, posed a threat not only to himself, but to his family and friends. His death put the discovery of these factors out of Voldemort's reach for decades. 

I would add Draco's courage in the Room of Requirement to your list of Slytherins failing to secure their own safety before acting bravely. Securing his own safety in that situation would have required running as fast as possible for an exit. Instead, he slowed himself down considerably to drag Goyle along with him to safety. He persisted in this failure to place his own safety first when he refused to let go of Goyle when Harry came to his rescue. He made sure Goyle was also going to be rescued before accepting help.

Even Bella, IMO, can serve as an illustration. Did she not risk a life sentence in Azkaban, and her life, in support of her Dark Lord?

> He may be exceptional, but not an exception.

Zara:
Exceptional, indeed. <g>




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Nov 15 17:12:00 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:12:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdpcp0+d8s1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188417

>1.  Per the narrative, "Hermione had become a bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it" [US hardback, p. 181].  Please discuss the notion of being more relaxed about rule-breaking translating into being a nicer person, either in general terms or re: Hermione specifically.

Potioncat:
I think earlier posters have it nailed. Because she wasn't bothering Harry and Ron about breaking rules, she came across as nicer.


> 
3.  Was JKR thinking that far ahead at this point??  Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?

Potioncat:
I'm sure she had fleshed out both Snape's and Dumbledore's story lines before she started SS/PS. 

In SS/PS both Hermione and Hagrid use the supporting argument that Snape is a teacher and a teacher wouldn't harm a student. Boy,were they wrong!  As a society we've learned that not all adults who work with youth  can be trusted. But to your question, I think Hermione went through the same trusting/not trusting stages that many of us did. Even Snape's most die-hard fans had moments of doubt.


> 
4.  Okay, harken back.  The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?

Potioncat:
No, and I love that scene now. 
> 

My question:

Hermione hears Snape react to the fire, then she scoops it back into her jar. Doesn't he see her do this? Doesn't he notice the fire is gone? 


Thanks SSSusan for the questions. Always good to see you on list.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Nov 15 18:00:47 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 15 Nov 2009 18:00:47 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/15/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1258308047.23.97099.m3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188418

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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Weekly Chat
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Notes:
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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 15 21:59:28 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:59:28 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdptk0+10q26@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188419

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Quidditch <snip thorough summary>
>
> 1.  Per the narrative, "Hermione had become a bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it" [US hardback, p. 181].  Please discuss the notion of being more relaxed about rule-breaking translating into being a nicer person, either in general terms or re: Hermione specifically.

Carol responds (belatedly):

Other posters have summed up the situation pretty thoroughly. Having lied to a teacher and feeling grateful to Ron and Harry, without whose rule breaking she probably would not be alive, Hermione becomes a nicer person from Harry and Ron's perspective, someone they can relate to who's not always scolding or nagging about rule breaking and is a bit more lax about rule breaking herself, assuming that there's a rule against helping other students with their homework. Whether anyone else regards her as nicer, I don't know. Probably, to use Snape's infamous little phrase, they see no difference. She's still the same "insufferable know-it-all," and she still doesn't have any friends other than Harry and Ron.
> 
> 2.  Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school on the spot?  Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule?  Is this yet another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly, or is it yet another example of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?

Carol responds:
This scene, like the "whoops!" scene already alluded to by Alla and others, can only be interpreted by the individual reader since it's never referred to again in the text. On the one hand, we have Harry's and Ron's preconceptions about Snape, and certainly Snape thought (rightly) that they were up to something and may well have been looking for something he could deduct points for, but that in itself doesn't mean that he made up the rule. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that it's a genuine rule but one that's seldom enforced. But given Madam Pince's hysterical fear for her books, I wouldn't put it past her to make that rule. And Snape, with his excellent memory, would remember it and use it for his own purposes.
> 
> 3.  <snip> Is he [Snape] the kind of person about whom one could rightfully say "I'd never put anything past him"? Or is he to be trusted never to go against something Dumbledore has asked of him?  Was JKR thinking that far ahead at this point??  Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?

Carol responds:
I'm quite sure that JKR had Snape's background and fate figured out from the first. He's a key character (without whom she would have no story, or a very different story), and she wanted to keep him ambiguous and mysterious even after showing that he was thwarting Quirrell by presenting him mostly from Harry's and Ron's point of view but also having Hermione (and Hagrid) present the possibility that he's not as bad as he seems. (Later, Hermione has more justification for this view knowing that Snape saved Harry from Quirrell and that DD trusts him.) So almost from the beginning, JKR lets both the readers and the characters choose sides regarding Snape. (Having the Slytherins, especially Draco, *like* him puts more weight in Harry and Ron's basket, as do ambiguous actions like this one, seemingly taking points from Harry for no reason. And there's no question that he's not in the best of moods given his injury and Quirrell.)

As for "I'd never put anything past him," we know better. He saves other people's lives and risks his own, and however much he dislikes Harry and suspects him (rightly) of breaking rules and being too interested in the forbidden corridor, he's protecting Harry from the moment he enters the school (and maybe earlier). And he does on one occasion threaten not to do something that DD has asked him--killing Dumbledore. He also stopped giving the Occlumency lessons when they turned into a fiasco (DD apparently understood that and didn't order him to resume them). Mostly, however, he does what DD requires of him, however unpleasant (for example, making the wolfbane potion for Lupin, whom he dislikes and distrusts, because not to do so would be disastrous) or dangerous (lying to LV and saving any life that he can despite the risk of discovery). He does what DD wants and more, and he does so with great effectiveness most of the time.
> 
> 4.  Okay, harken back.  The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?

Carol:
I don't remember. I liked Snape and thought that he was a fascinating character, and I'm quite sure that I didn't think he was trying to kill Harry (maybe just jinx the broom so that Slytherin would win the match?). But I'm sure that I didn't figure out that it was Quirrell. I may have started to suspect Quirrell later when Snape referred to "your little bit of hocus pocus" and "where your loyalties lie," but, of course, I didn't know that Voldemort was inside the back of Quirrell's head. It's strange, though, that my initial reactions are  gone without a trace. I vividly recall reading LOTR for the first time, but I don't have any such recollection of most HP scenes and chapters ("Spinner's End" and the tower scene in HBP and my marathon read of DH excepted).

Now I have a rather complicated question of my own, but I'll quote a paragraph from SSS's summary first:

> "Harry decides, that evening, to ask Snape to return QTTA.  He heads to the staffroom, assuming Snape might be there.  When he receives no answer to his knock, Harry enters.  What he sees surprises him:  Snape, with his robes lifted to reveal a bloody, mangled leg, in conversation with Filch.  Harry overhears Snape referencing "three heads" before Snape sees him and orders him out."

When he discusses the incident with Ron and Hermione, Harry thinks that Snape must have been injured trying to get past Fluffy on Halloween night, but that can't be right. Yes, he prevented Quirrell from trying to get through the door and forced him to go back downstairs, where they joined McGonagall in finding HRH and the unconscious Troll. (Quirrell feigns fear of Trolls again.) But there's no indicattion that Snape is injured at that point, and no mention of his injury until "that evening"--that is, the evening of the day before the Quidditch match.

It's not clear how much time has passed, but the narrator mentions that they've entered November, mentions frost on the ground "every morning," and states that the Quidditch match is on a Saturday. The point-taking incident with QTTA therefore takes place on a Friday and the incident where Harry sees Filch treating Snape's wound on Friday evening. Clearly, they haven't noticed anything wrong with his leg before that point, including on Halloween night; it seems to be a recent injury. Snape's remark to Filch ("Blasted thing! How are you supposed to keep your eyes on all three heads at once?") also suggests that the injury has just happened, as does the apparent freshness of the injury--the leg is bloody and mangled. (Why he isn't treating it himself, I don't know. He clearly doesn't want Madam Pomfrey to know about it, but he should be able to heal the wound himself--plot requirements vs. consistency within the books, I guess, or else she hadn't yet envisioned Snape as a Healer.)

Harry concludes that Snape tried to get past the three-headed dog on Halloween night, but that can't be right. Several days, at least, have passed since Halloween at this point and Harry would have noticed Snape limping in Potions class if nowhere else if it had occurred then. But my question is, why did Snape try to enter the forbidden corridor at some point *after* Halloween? Why go in at all when all he needs to do is prevent Quirrell from entering? 

Of course, the scene is a set-up to make Harry and the reader think that Snape is after what the dog is guarding. But clearly, Harry is wrong not only about why Snape entered the corridor but when.

BTW, HRH have Charms on Halloween, which may help to indicate what day of the week it falls on. Halloween 1991 was on a Thursday, which could make it the night before these incidents, which happen on a Friday, but the narrative and dialogue make it sound as if several days have passed.

Has JKR just forgotten the timeline? IOW, she thinks that Snape was injured on Halloween but she shows him with fresh wounds several days later? But if that's the case, why would Snape try to get past the dog on Halloween (in front of Quirrell) and why was there no sign of an injury when he showed up in the girls' bathroom with Quirrell and McGonagall? And whether he entered the room in front of Quirrell or not (surely, he wouldn't) How would knowing how to get past Fluffy help Snape thwart Quirrell? I know it's a red herring, but red herrings need a rational explanation and I can't think of one.

Carol, who almost forgot to thank SSS for the interesting questions!

  




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 16 00:57:32 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:57:32 -0000
Subject: Houses / Chapter 11
Message-ID: <hdq81s+8pmg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188420

Zanooda wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188385>:

<< How about Tonks :-)? JKR said she was in Hufflepuff, but we know that to become an Auror you have to get at least five NEWTs with Exceeds Expectations or higher. Snape only takes those with an "O" into his NEWT class, so Tonks probably had an "Outstanding" OWL in Potions to be there. >>

Imagine Tonks's clumsiness in Potions lab! She must have got the rough side of Severus's tongue as much as Neville did, and possibly Severus petitioned Dumbledore to remove her from Potions as a public danger.

Alla wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188391>:

<< Well, of course this is what Founders wanted, to divide students equally that is, the thing is they decided to divide the students not based on the letters of alphabet (yes, I know, how boring the story will be), they decided to put brave students in one house, smart in another, ambitious in third and hardworking and loyal in fourth, instead of mixing them all together and finding some less innate qualities to divide them upon. >>

The Sorting Hat's song in GoF said:

"While still alive they did divide
Their favourites from the throng,
Yet how to pick the worthy ones
When they were dead and gone?

'Twas Gryffindor who found the way,
He whipped me off his head
The founders put some brains in me
So I could choose instead!"

It seems to me that while the Founders were alive and each chose the students they would teach, they were choosing based on what they could see of the  student's whole personality, appearance, and family background. If the student showed the virtue they most valued along with traits they despised, they wouldn't have accepted the student. If Godric was drawn to trouble makers who talked back to authorities and were always being punished for breaking the rules, he wouldn't like an equal risk taker whose response to a crazy dare was 'What's in it for me?' Someone who does the stunt for 'I bet you fifty Galleons you can't do it' but not for 'I dare you'. 

So if they put enough of their 'brains' inside the Sorting Hat for it to choose students based on what each Founder would have wanted, then it isn't really choosing based on does this student have only one of these four traits.

Altho' I admit that the mind-reading Hat sorts a little better than the Founders did. I believe that the Hat wisely insisted on putting Neville into Gryffindor even tho' Neville kept saying he was only suitable for Hufflepuff. Godric wouldn't have been insightful enough to choose this quiet, shy kid. I don't know whether Godric would have accepted that tight-ass swot, Percy, because of his family connections, because Percy did not make it obvious that he had enough courage to break up with his family -- and enough courage to admit that he was wrong.

SSSusan discussed PS/SS Chapter 11 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188395>:

<< As the term moves into November, the weather becomes chilly >>

Good match of text to reality, altho' I wish the weather *here* would make up its mind to *stay* chilly instead of alternating days with highs in the high 60s with days with highs in the high 80s.

<< Harry decides, that evening, to ask Snape to return QTTA. He heads to the staffroom, assuming Snape might be there. >>

A brave but unreasonable act. Why would Harry think that Snape was more likely to give him back the book than to take away more points for disturbing him and assign a detention? That I would have been scared to seek out Snape to ask him for something shows that I don't belong in Gryffindor, but Gryffs aren't supposed to cost their House points by foolishness either.

<< feels somewhat better seeing his friends' "Potter for President" banner. >>

I've always wondered why Brits would have So and So for President banners when, as far as I know, they don't have a President.

<< Harry recovers and soon has caught the snitch... in his mouth. Gryffindor wins! >>

Do you think Rowling had already figured out that thing with "flesh memory" when she wrote this scene? I know she left out stuff so that this volume could stand on its own if the rest of the series wasn't published, but I don't think the stand-alone-ness would have been harmed by mentioning the Snitch's flesh memory among the many things Harry learned from reading QTTA. she could have illustrated it with an amusing story about the two Seekers crashing into each other and knocking each other unconscious (or dead, if she can make that funny) with the Snitch crushed between them.

Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188406>:

<< If safety was important to you, would you want your child to play Quidditch? >>

School Quidditch, with adults present who know how to slow the player's fall so he/she floats to the ground like an Autumn leaf, and Madam Pomfrey available to quickly cure broken bones, lost teeth, and concussion? Sure. Quidditch in the back yard at home, even without Bludgers? Not if I were concerned about safety!





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Nov 16 02:17:48 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:17:48 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdptk0+10q26@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdqcoc+800l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188421


>Carol: 
> Harry concludes that Snape tried to get past the three-headed dog on Halloween night, but that can't be right. Several days, at least, have passed since Halloween at this point and Harry would have noticed Snape limping in Potions class if nowhere else if it had occurred then. But my question is, why did Snape try to enter the forbidden corridor at some point *after* Halloween? Why go in at all when all he needs to do is prevent Quirrell from entering? 

Potioncat:
You know how some staircases and hallways go different places on different days of the week? I think time is a bit dodgy at Hogwarts too. I used a time turner and read ch 17. Quirrell confirms that Snape was bitten on Halloween trying to head him off. All I can think is that Snape was trying to do the same heroic dash through the trap door that Harry will do later on--to see if Quirrell had gotten in.

But I agree there seems to be a longer passage of time between Halloween and the day before the Quidditch match. Harry does notice that Snape is limping when he approaches them and takes QTTA. But there wasn't any indication before that he had been injured.





From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Mon Nov 16 01:54:56 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (excessivelyperky)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:54:56 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdjvj7+vh2f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdqbdg+focm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188422

1. Per the narrative, "Hermione had become a bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it" [US hardback, p. 181]. Please discuss the notion of being more relaxed about rule-breaking translating into being a nicer person, either in general terms or re: Hermione specifically.

--Actually, questions 1 and 2 are quite likely related--Hermione may well be aware that books are not supposed to be taken outside the library (where they are more easily damaged--remember, these are eleven year old children we're talking about), but chooses not to mention it in order to be a good sport. 

2. Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school on the spot? Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule? Is this yet another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly, or is it yet another example of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?

--Could be a bit of both. Given that Snape himself could not afford new textbooks as a student, he may value the library books quite a bit more highly than people who can afford to buy their own schoolbooks new. Notice that even Ron doesn't have to use hand-me-downs. It may well exasperate him that the kids are treating library books, which may be the only good resource for kids in Snape's economic stratum, in such a careless manner. And it reinforces, in his mind, that Harry Potter is just like his father and is, no doubt, pampered the way his father had been. Of course the Trio are going to assume negative things about him. Snape and Filch between them manage most of the discipline of the school (though McGonagall is often even harsher, she's not considered negative by the author). My question is why Snape never went to Madam Pomfrey with the bad leg, and went to Filch for help instead. That always seemed rather odd. 

3. When Harry & Ron express their belief that Snape had tried to get past the three-headed dog to whatever it was guarding, Hermione says, "No ? he wouldn't. I know he's not very nice, but he wouldn't try and steal something Dumbledore was keeping safe." Ron snaps back, "Honestly, Hermione, you think all teachers are saints or something. I'm with Harry, I wouldn't put anything past Snape" [p. 183]. 

(snip) Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?

--Hermione does. She apparently gave up on Snape in the end, judging by her conduct in DH. Harry may change his mind about Snape, but it occurs rather too late to do Snape any good. In the Epilogue, Ron still sneers at Slytherin, Hermione is silent, and Harry has to whisper anything good about the Unknown Severus to his son (who apparently has no idea who 'Severus' could be, so Snape, in my opinion, is likely a nonperson by now in the WW). 

4. Okay, harken back. The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?

--Not a clue! 

Jean Lamb
tlambs1138 at charter.net
excessiveperky at LJ
Meet the Carstairs Sisters at www.gameoflove1.com today!





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 16 04:29:01 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:29:01 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdqbdg+focm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdqked+tfau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188423



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "excessivelyperky" <tlambs1138 at ...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> --Actually, questions 1 and 2 are quite likely related--Hermione may well be aware that books are not supposed to be taken outside the library (where they are more easily damaged--remember, these are eleven year old children we're talking about), but chooses not to mention it in order to be a good sport. <SNIP>

Alla:

I seem to remember Hermione on quite a few occasions, quotes are given if needed letting Harry and Ron have it for breaking the rules that exist, I am not sure if she ever was silent about the rule on any other occasion (maybe I just do not remember of course) in order to be a good sport. Oh she will break the rules with them all right, but when she does so, she seems to be fully aware that this is what she is doing.

And I would love to know if anybody ever had been to the library that prohibits to taking the books outside. I would still think such a rule to be absurd, but maybe at least it is RL absurd. I certainly had been to the libraries that had "reading rooms", where people were supposed to read rare books, but those were the books which people could not SIGN OUT. I had never in my life had been to the library which said - oh yeah, you could sign the book out but don't you dare read it outside. It seems to me that if you are allowed to take the book with you, you are allowed to take it anywhere you wish to. And eleven year old children can manage the books quite well, they are not one year old children and not even five year old children, right?

Personally I still cannot get over restricted section books being taken outside and Quidditch over the ages  supposedly not?

JMO,

Alla




From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Sun Nov 15 21:50:55 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (excessivelyperky)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:50:55 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
In-Reply-To: <hdbq8o+7o5g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdpt3v+rhup@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188424

Joey:

"By the by, Hermione (and probably many other people) also seems to sport a similar view about Hufflepuffs and Slytherins as she tells Harry and Ron that Gryffindor is the best according to what she heard while she thinks being in Ravenclaw should be okay. She never mentions Hufflepuff. Slytherin seems to have earned a dark reputation by then and so, I presume the prejudice against Slytherin was quite widespread and even contagious, seeing how Harry, Ron, James enter the castle with this prejudice.
(snip)"



--Of course, both McGonagall and Hagrid seem to be the staff members sent to visit the Muggleborn. We all know what Hagrid's prejudices are; remember, he tells Harry that all dark wizards came from Slytherin, even though we all know that is not the case. We don't know what McGongall tells Hermione or her parents, but I would be very surprised to discover she spoke about any house but Gryffindor in favorable terms. Slytherin may have earned a dark reputation; but given that new students appear to be indocrinated in it even before they come to Hogwarts, it's no surprise to see it from the very beginning. We also see Gryffindors in the past receiving favorable treatment even when engaged in activities that would suggest otherwise; note the career of the Marauders, for instance. It's clear that Rowling finds Gryffindor to be her favorite house as well, since Dumbledore often serves as her spokesperson. 'It is our choices' etc., and in Snape's case, 'sometimes we Sort too soon'--these appear to me to imply that if someone shows virtue, they naturally belong in Gryffindor and nowhere else. Just my opinion, of course.

Jean Lamb
tlambs1138 at charter.net
excessiveperky at LJ
Meet the Carstairs Sisters at www.gameoflove1.com today!







From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 16 16:27:15 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:27:15 -0000
Subject: Houses / Chapter 11
In-Reply-To: <hdq81s+8pmg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdruh3+ksk6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188425

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:

> Imagine Tonks's clumsiness in Potions lab! She must have got 
> the rough side of Severus's tongue as much as Neville did, 
> and possibly Severus petitioned Dumbledore to remove her 
> from Potions as a public danger.


zanooda:

LOL! I suppose Tonks could be a menace in the Potions class, but it is the result that matters, right? Neville was clumsy and he didn't know what he was doing, while Tonks was clumsy but she knew what she was doing (if she indeed got an Outstanding OWL in Potions). OK, she could break a few vials in class, or she could trip and spill something unpleasant, but if, unlike Neville, she had a perfectly brewed potion at the end of the lesson (as it seems to be the case), I don't think Snape ever asked to remove her :-). But he must have made lots and lots of sarcastic remarks... :-).




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Nov 16 20:40:29 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:40:29 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdncn8+4t5k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdsdbt+bvdt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188426

 
> Alla:
> 
> Tell me this. When you think about Gryffindor, would you call it a House of Peter Pettigrew?

Potioncat:
That's just it, I would. Gryffindor didn't only produce Dumbledore, James, Lily and Harry Potter. It produced Pettigrew. What Gryffindor's have in common is bravery. Their opinions and abilities are all different. Even the types of courage the members have can vary. Would I judge it only by Pettigrew? No. 

Gryffindor House of Harry's days seems to be a good group of kids, at least from what we see. Gryffindor House from the generation before was a bit sketchy. Young James and Young Sirius weren't too impressive in their behavior--and Pettigrew never lived up to its reputation. I've come to believe he had a sort of courage, but that he really lacked a sense of loyalty.

I think it would be a mistake to think all Gryffindors are as good as Harry.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Nov 18 00:13:08 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:13:08 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdsdbt+bvdt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdve6l+9n56@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188427


> > Alla:
> > 
> > Tell me this. When you think about Gryffindor, would you call it a House of Peter Pettigrew?
> 
> Potioncat:
> That's just it, I would. Gryffindor didn't only produce Dumbledore, James, Lily and Harry Potter. It produced Pettigrew.

Pippin:
When I think of Gryffindor I think of the Trio's bravery, but I also think of Peter's treachery, Dumbledore's machinations, the Marauders' bullying, Maclaggan's oafishness and all the times when our heroes fell short of what we expected of them. 

Certainly in CoS, Harry's choice of Gryffindor over Slytherin is made to symbolize Harry's superiority to Tom, but as the story unfolds  it no longer seems to me that Gryffindors are superior generally. I still have more positive associations with Gryffindor than I do with Slytherin, but if canon tells us anything, it is that such associations are not to be trusted no matter how compelling they seem.

If the average Gryffindor was supposed to be as brave and moral as Harry, then half of them would be as brave and moral as Harry is, or even more so. That clearly is not the case.

Likewise if Tom or even Draco was the average Slytherin then half of Slytherin would be as bad as Tom or Draco,  or even worse. That doesn't seem to be the case either. 

Pippin





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 18 00:47:48 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:47:48 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdve6l+9n56@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdvg7k+5f27@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188428

> > > Alla:
> > > 
> > > Tell me this. When you think about Gryffindor, would you call it a House of Peter Pettigrew?
> > 
> > Potioncat:
> > That's just it, I would. Gryffindor didn't only produce Dumbledore, James, Lily and Harry Potter. It produced Pettigrew.
> 
> Pippin:
> When I think of Gryffindor I think of the Trio's bravery, but I also think of Peter's treachery, Dumbledore's machinations, the Marauders' bullying, Maclaggan's oafishness and all the times when our heroes fell short of what we expected of them. 

Alla:

Well heroes falling short of what we expected of them to me has little to do with their bravery, unless by falling short you mean them acting cowardly of course.

But yes, this is seems to be one of the big irreconcilable difference between ours POVs. I however just want to clarify something before I let it go. I indeed do not think about Peter's treachery, or at least not right away when I think about Gryffindor, is not because I suffer memory loss. As far as I am concerned  it was a very deliberate choice on author's behalf to show a traitor from Gryffindor but make it a generation behind. I do not know how to explain it, but it is again sort of works on more subconscious level for me, I do not know.

It is a removed treachery, treachery which she chose not to repeat for Gryffindor, yes yes, I know we still see consequences of his treachery for Harry, for Sirius and so many others involved. And it is still not the same for me. I still do not **feel** as if Peter belongs to Gryffindor.

And I definitely do not think about Dumbledore's machinations when I think of him as Gryffindor, with him it is even murkier. Do we even KNOW 100% sure if he was in Gryffindor besides Hermione's words and the images of the door, etc?


Pippin:
> Certainly in CoS, Harry's choice of Gryffindor over Slytherin is made to symbolize Harry's superiority to Tom, but as the story unfolds  it no longer seems to me that Gryffindors are superior generally. I still have more positive associations with Gryffindor than I do with Slytherin, but if canon tells us anything, it is that such associations are not to be trusted no matter how compelling they seem.

Alla:

I do not feel that I have any other CHOICE but to trust those associations, simply because I do not see them contradicted much.


Pippin:
> If the average Gryffindor was supposed to be as brave and moral as Harry, then half of them would be as brave and moral as Harry is, or even more so. That clearly is not the case.

Alla:

I disagree, even with this being Harry's story, she made sure to show Ginny's bravery, Neville's bravery, Twins' bravery, etc. Based on this I think it is a safe assumption to make that Gryffindor is a House of Brave. IMO of course.

Pippin:
> Likewise if Tom or even Draco was the average Slytherin then half of Slytherin would be as bad as Tom or Draco,  or even worse. That doesn't seem to be the case either. 

Alla:

It is a case for me though, I am back to being unable to remember any average Slytherin students who are not as bad as Tom and Draco and as far as I am concerned  if she would have wanted to show them, she would have done so. IMO of course.

And yes, I know, Snape, Regulus and Slugghorn, they are brave, I do not dispute this, just does not make a case to me of average Slytherin student, not even close.

IMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 18 01:07:02 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:07:02 -0000
Subject: Greetings from the Hexquarters
Message-ID: <hdvhbm+1nco@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188429

Hi guys,

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets and/or Prizoner of Azkaban chapter discussion,
please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).

Thanks,

Alika elf.






From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Nov 18 03:03:58 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:03:58 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdvo6u+tfth@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188430



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> Football is up and running in the US. Everyday there's a new list showing which teams are in the top ten; which players are the best at what they do. The ranking changes week to week--and depends on who writes the list!
> 
> So, I'd like to see what a HP ranking might look like.
> 
> Name the 10 most noteworthy good guys and the 10 most despicable bad guys from the Harry Potter series. It's not necessary to rank the 10 (unless you particularly want to), just decide who belongs in those 2 top ten lists.
> 
> 
> Potioncat
>

Nikkalmati

Lovely idea.  Of course football season is about over for colleges and high schools but what the hey.  

Not in any particular order:
Good guys
Almost all the good guys are flawed or have done bad things at some time, but they are on the right side.
Lily - the best overall according to what we see.
Dumbledore - got to have him
Harry - the central good guy
Hermione - essential
Snape - my favorite
Regulus - a tragic story
Neville - a winner at the end
Dobby - never a wrong move - oops I forgot about the bludger
Kingsley - reliable and necessary
Moody - died for the cause

Bad guys
Voldemore - got to have him
Petunia - close to the worst, a true child abuser, no excuse except her jealousy of her sister, and never a sign of remorse
Umbridge - petty evil, nasty and prejudiced
Bella - she had a choice at some time, capable of destroying the Longbottoms
Draco - he was given an opportunity and seemed to be inclined to turn back, but despite the efforts of Snape and Dumbledore, he is right back fighting for LV at the end.
Peter - the consumate traitor
Barty Crouch, Jr. - a true DE
Lucius - willing to rejoin LV; interested only in himself and his family
Fenrir - loves what he does
Grindenwald - the catelist for the tragedy of Adrianna and Snape

Nikkalmati (does this thing have a spell check?)




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Nov 18 03:30:53 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:30:53 -0000
Subject: Platform 9 3/4 /  Hufflepuff / Joining LV / Potters in hiding
In-Reply-To: <hau570+lmmh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdvppd+t2kl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188431



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > 
> Nikkalmati wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187971>:
> 
> << Harry was a year old when Lily and James were killed, so did LV wait almost a year before deciding Harry was the Prophecy Boy? It would seem so, because the Potters went into hiding only a few weeks before LV killed them and the response to the information and the request on the hilltop would make sense if they went into hiding immediately after that. >>
> 
> I believe the Potters were in hiding for a year before LV caught them. I envision that wherever they hid, soon DD's spies told him that LV had found out where they were hiding, so DD quickly moved them to another hiding place, but LV soon found out about that one, too. Since they trusted Peter to visit them in all their hiding places but Peter was LV's spy, the only delay in LV learning their latest hiding place is how long it is until Peter's next appointment to report to him.
> 
> Because LV kept finding out where the Potters were hiding, finally DD suggested the Fidelius Charm. I believe it was a week or two after that that LV finally caught them.
> 
> In <http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/news_view.cfm?id=80>, JKR said: "When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people."
> 
> In <http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm>, she said: "At the time that they christened Harry, they were in hiding. This was not going to be a widely attended christening, because he was already in danger."
>

Nikkalmati

I am not sure how that fits.  Snape would have had to be the one to tell DD that the Potters had been targeted, and that makes the scene on the hilltop shortly after Harry was born?  I have seen timelines that conclude Snape told DD shortly before the Potters went under the Fidelius, but I can't recreate it.  Anyone out there remember?

I am not sure when children are christened in the UK.  It used to be children in my church were christened at a few weeks, but we now see more older infants and a few toddlers. 

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Nov 18 04:02:08 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:02:08 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hdvo6u+tfth@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hdvrk0+jhmp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188432



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> >
> > Football is up and running in the US. Everyday there's a new list showing which teams are in the top ten; which players are the best at what they do. The ranking changes week to week--and depends on who writes the list!
> > 
> > So, I'd like to see what a HP ranking might look like.
> > 
> > Name the 10 most noteworthy good guys and the 10 most despicable bad guys from the Harry Potter series. It's not necessary to rank the 10 (unless you particularly want to), just decide who belongs in those 2 top ten lists.
> > 
> > 
> > Potioncat
> >
> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> Lovely idea.  Of course football season is about over for colleges and high schools but what the hey.  
> 
> Not in any particular order:
> Good guys
> Almost all the good guys are flawed or have done bad things at some time, but they are on the right side.
> Lily - the best overall according to what we see.
> Dumbledore - got to have him
> Harry - the central good guy
> Hermione - essential
> Snape - my favorite
> Regulus - a tragic story
> Neville - a winner at the end
> Dobby - never a wrong move - oops I forgot about the bludger
> Kingsley - reliable and necessary
> Moody - died for the cause
> 
> Bad guys
> Voldemore - got to have him
> Petunia - close to the worst, a true child abuser, no excuse except her jealousy of her sister, and never a sign of remorse
> Umbridge - petty evil, nasty and prejudiced
> Bella - she had a choice at some time, capable of destroying the Longbottoms
> Draco - he was given an opportunity and seemed to be inclined to turn back, but despite the efforts of Snape and Dumbledore, he is right back fighting for LV at the end.
> Peter - the consumate traitor
> Barty Crouch, Jr. - a true DE
> Lucius - willing to rejoin LV; interested only in himself and his family
> Fenrir - loves what he does
> Grindenwald - the catelist for the tragedy of Adrianna and Snape
> 
> Nikkalmati (does this thing have a spell check?)
>

Nikkalmati

Just want to add, I could never include Ron in the good list after he left Harry and Hermione in the forest.  Not a bad guy, just not good enough.  For the same reason I could not include Mr. Lovegood as good, even if he was trying to save Luna. 

Nikkalmati




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Nov 18 12:45:33 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:45:33 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
Message-ID: <he0q9d+sv8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188433

The chapter discussion on "The Sorting Hat" has generated a long thread about house traits and values. So, I was thinking it might be fun to see how each of us would do if we were able to be the Sorting Hat for a day. Here are some questions, just for fun. Please provide canon support for your answers and feel free to add other questions.

Which characters do you think exemplify the attributes of their houses? There can be multiple if you think there are several, but choose one main representative from each house.

Are there any characters who don't live up to their house standards?

Dumbledore thinks they sort too soon. Are there any characters you would sort differently than the Sorting Hat did?

Are there any characters who are sorted appropriately, but you think would have fit in another house just as well?

Do you think being in a different house would have made a difference in a character's life?

Potioncat-in-the-Hat




From POWERBABE7 at aol.com  Mon Nov 16 03:02:21 2009
From: POWERBABE7 at aol.com (POWERBABE7 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:02:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hdncn8+4t5k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CC348059A316D3-EEC-2F7C@webmail-d014.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188434

This might be off topic but if Ravenclaw is a house of intellectuals
then I wonder why Hermione was not placed in Ravenclaw. I have always
wondered about that.

Gina





From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Nov 18 16:06:32 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:06:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN
  LONG
In-Reply-To: <8CC348059A316D3-EEC-2F7C@webmail-d014.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CC348059A316D3-EEC-2F7C@webmail-d014.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4B041B88.4020708@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188435

POWERBABE7 at aol.com wrote:
> This might be off topic but if Ravenclaw is a house of intellectuals 
> then I wonder why Hermione was not placed in Ravenclaw. I have always 
> wondered about that.
>   

Bart:
    JKR has strongly implied that the student's desire is a major 
consideration in the choice of the Sorting Hat. Also, we don't know how 
much the headmaster has to do with the choices; it is still my 
contention that the fact that Harry becoming friends with exactly the 
people he needed to get to the Stone was either such an unbelievable 
coincidence as to be considered incredibly bad writing, or Dumbledore 
manipulated events to ensure that the three would become friends. I'd 
like to think that JKR is, or was, not THAT bad a writer.

    Bart




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 18 16:37:36 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:37:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <8CC348059A316D3-EEC-2F7C@webmail-d014.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <he17sg+n4e2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188436

Gina:

> This might be off topic but if Ravenclaw is a house of intellectuals
> then I wonder why Hermione was not placed in Ravenclaw. I have always
> wondered about that.

Magpie:
It's not necessarily the house of intellectuals. I can just be the house of those who prize the mind first over other things. Hermione makes clear both in her words and in her actions that she prizes action and courage over intelligence or thought. She's an excellent student but a practical one, learning things that give her the practical tools she needs to change the world in ways she thinks are best, or get the results she wants like good grades or the answer to a mystery, or just give her the facts so that she knows what she's dealing with. She's not known for thinking about things in new and different ways, or being philosophical. This, after all, is the girl who actually wouldn't use the written instructions in Harry's book in HBP. Faced with a philophical conundrum she's more likely to impatiently give the right answer than enjoy looking at it from different points of view.

-m




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Nov 18 17:53:02 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:53:02 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN LONG
In-Reply-To: <4B041B88.4020708@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <he1c9u+d37s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188437

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:

> POWERBABE7 at ... wrote:
> > This might be off topic but if Ravenclaw is a house of intellectuals 
> > then I wonder why Hermione was not placed in Ravenclaw. I have always 
> > wondered about that.
 
> Bart:
>     JKR has strongly implied that the student's desire is a major 
> consideration in the choice of the Sorting Hat. Also, we don't know how 
> much the headmaster has to do with the choices; it is still my 
> contention that the fact that Harry becoming friends with exactly the 
> people he needed to get to the Stone was either such an unbelievable 
> coincidence as to be considered incredibly bad writing, or Dumbledore 
> manipulated events to ensure that the three would become friends. I'd 
> like to think that JKR is, or was, not THAT bad a writer.

Geoff:
As time has gone by, I have leaned more to the manipulative Dumbledore 
theory, although manipulative is perhaps rather a strong term.

I've probably read too much fan fiction.
:-(




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 18 18:14:56 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:14:56 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS: Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <he1c9u+d37s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he1dj0+pumt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188438

> > Bart:
> >     JKR has strongly implied that the student's desire is a major 
> > consideration in the choice of the Sorting Hat. Also, we don't know how 
> > much the headmaster has to do with the choices; it is still my 
> > contention that the fact that Harry becoming friends with exactly the 
> > people he needed to get to the Stone was either such an unbelievable 
> > coincidence as to be considered incredibly bad writing, or Dumbledore 
> > manipulated events to ensure that the three would become friends. I'd 
> > like to think that JKR is, or was, not THAT bad a writer.
> 
> Geoff:
> As time has gone by, I have leaned more to the manipulative Dumbledore 
> theory, although manipulative is perhaps rather a strong term.
> 
> I've probably read too much fan fiction.
> :-(
>


Alla:

I will be the last person to disagree with manipulative theory, but I will ask simply out of curiosity, how do you think Dumbledore did it?

I mean, I totally get how Manipulative!Dumbledore made Harry love Hogwarts and want to go there, that I understand and agree to a large extent, but how did he insured that Harry became friends specifically with Ron and Hermione?

Did he hypnotize Ron to make sure he would like Harry on the train and vice versa? I am not being sarcastic here, I just do not understand and I want to understand.

And I especially do not understand how it works with Hermione. Oh wait, wait before we get to that are you guys saying he influenced the Hat as well to make sure Hermione and Harry will be in Gryffindor? That I am not buying but I want to understand the theory.

So, to go back to Hermione becoming part of the Trio, how did Dumbledore accomplish that?

Did he make sure that Troll appeared as well?

Thanks,

Alla.




From loptwyn at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 18 19:06:31 2009
From: loptwyn at yahoo.com (Alice)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:06:31 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS: Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <he1dj0+pumt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he1gjn+iclh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188439



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

<snipped>

> I mean, I totally get how Manipulative!Dumbledore made Harry love Hogwarts and want to go there, that I understand and agree to a large extent, but how did he insured that Harry became friends specifically with Ron and Hermione?
> 
> Did he hypnotize Ron to make sure he would like Harry on the train and vice versa? ...
> Thanks,
> Alla.

Yes, how would Dumbledore even know that Harry would meet Ron on the train?

And for that matter, the fact that he met Draco earlier in Diagon Alley, and found him unpleasantly like his cousin Dudley, also influenced him when Draco tried to warn him off Ron later at Hogwarts.

Dumbledore is a Machivellian manipulator, but he is not omniscient and all-powerful--something Rowling in fact emphasizes every once in a while in the books.  I don't think even he could have managed to set Harry's whole life experience up so that he would be friends with certain people when he got to school.

Mad Alice
>:>




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 18 22:12:42 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:12:42 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends Was: Chap 10
In-Reply-To: <he1dj0+pumt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he1rgq+if6f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188441



---  "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> > > Bart:
> > > JKR has strongly implied that the student's desire 
> > > is a major consideration in the choice of the Sorting 
> > > Hat. Also, ...how much the headmaster has to do with 
> > > the choices; ... my contention that ... Harry becoming 
> > > friends with exactly the people he needed ...
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > As time has gone by, I have leaned more to the manipulative
> > Dumbledore theory, although manipulative is perhaps rather 
> > a strong term.
> > 
> > ...
> >
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I will be the last person to disagree with manipulative theory, but I will ask simply out of curiosity, how do you think Dumbledore did it?
> 
> ....
> 
> So, to go back to Hermione becoming part of the Trio, how did Dumbledore accomplish that?
> 
> Did he make sure that Troll appeared as well?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alla.
>


bboyminn:

No doubt Dumbledore was manipulative, as all great leaders
are; he was also painfully secretive, but there is a reasonable
limit to his manipulation, and also much better and easier
ways to accomplish what we assume he wants.

For example, instead of having Ron and Harry 'accidental' 
meet, why not just tell Harry to keep an eye out for a red
headed family at the train station, and that they would
help Harry onto Platform 9-3/4's, and help him get accustom
to the wizard world? 

That seem much easier than trying to secretly manipulate
everyone into meeting. There are just to many coincidence
to think it was being manipulated in the background. To
simply introduce Ron and Harry would likely assure that
Ron and Harry had a train compartment together. And would
be far more likely to assure that they become friends. 

As to Harry meeting and becoming friends with Hermione,
again that is just way too much coincidence to have been
manipulated into happening. If Dumbledore thought they 
should become friends, there were much much easier methods
of accomplishing this. 

As to the Sorting Hat putting them in the same house, again,
that is just too unlikely. I think the Sorting Hat reflects
the Will and Nature of the Founders, and is not prone to 
be manipulated by outside forces. Certainly, Dumbledore 
could have had a conversation with the Sorting Hat, and
that conversation could have even influenced the Sorting
Hat, but I do not believe the Sorting Hat would have gone
against its own nature to please the current Headmaster.
It would not put Harry in Gryffindor, if Harry did not 
belong there. 

I think that is the whole point of the Sorting Hat, that it
is the unbaised Will of the Founders, and not prone to any
kind of outside influence or manipulation. Prone to suggestions
maybe, but not prone to going against its natural instinct. 

Still, all that said, Dumbledore was still a manipulative
B(*cough*)stard. 

But then, that's just my opinion.

Steve/bboyminn




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Nov 18 22:21:09 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:21:09 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS: Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <he1gjn+iclh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he1s0l+tnrl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188442

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alice" <loptwyn at ...> wrote:

Alla:
> > I mean, I totally get how Manipulative!Dumbledore made Harry love Hogwarts and want to go there, that I understand and agree to a large extent, but how did he insured that Harry became friends specifically with Ron and Hermione?

> > Did he hypnotize Ron to make sure he would like Harry on the train and vice versa? ...
> > Thanks,

Mad Alice:
> Yes, how would Dumbledore even know that Harry would meet Ron on the train?
 
> And for that matter, the fact that he met Draco earlier in Diagon Alley, and found him unpleasantly like his cousin Dudley, also influenced him when Draco tried to warn him off Ron later at Hogwarts.
 
> Dumbledore is a Machivellian manipulator, but he is not omniscient and all-powerful--something Rowling in fact emphasizes every once in a while in the books.  I don't think even he could have managed to set Harry's whole life experience up so that he would be friends with certain people when he got to school.

Geoff:
As I said, my views of Dumbledore have become more cautious 
as the books have gone on and I suspect that there was some 
sort of subliminal "guidance".

Let's just take one instance: Ron on the train. On his birthday, 
Hagrid gives Harry his ticket in an envelope at Paddington railway 
station as he boards the train without saying more than telling 
Harry that all the information is on the ticket.

So Harry arrives at Kings Cross and becomes rather confused when 
trying to find Platform 9 3/4 and  begins to worry. I know we've 
talked about this recently when I set up the discussion for this 
chapter  but isn't it a strange coincidence that Molly just happens 
to march by with her tribe within hearing range of Harry while 
asking them what the platform number was?

As for Hermione, I could accept her meeting with the boys as 
being serendipitous. I agree that, even if Dumbledore is being 
Machiavellian, he would probably not have factored Hermione 
into his plans.

Am I just getting paranoid in my old age?




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Nov 19 02:11:40 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:11:40 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN LONG
In-Reply-To: <4B041B88.4020708@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <he29gs+nlo1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188443

Bart:
snip
; it is still my 
> contention that the fact that Harry becoming friends with exactly the 
> people he needed to get to the Stone was either such an unbelievable 
> coincidence as to be considered incredibly bad writing, or Dumbledore 
> manipulated events to ensure that the three would become friends. I'd 
> like to think that JKR is, or was, not THAT bad a writer.


Potioncat:
There are several places in the HP series that leave some readers cold,, pulled out of the story to say "What the heck!?" while other readers sail on through. I guess this is one of them. That Harry made two good friends who would be his companions during his adventures, and who would contribute doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. That DD was a puppetmaster isn't too far-fetched either.

But it is a stretch (imho) to think DD knew the 11-year-olds well enoug to know what skills Ron and Herminone had and that Harry would need those skills in his friends AND was able to have them put together in a way that assured a friendship. This from the man who thought Snape could teach Occlumancy to Harry?

jmo, you know.







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Nov 19 02:17:19 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:17:19 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN  LONG
In-Reply-To: <8CC348059A316D3-EEC-2F7C@webmail-d014.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <he29rf+6o02@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188444

>Gina:
> This might be off topic but if Ravenclaw is a house of intellectuals
> then I wonder why Hermione was not placed in Ravenclaw. I have always
> wondered about that.

Potioncat:
I think the answer is, Hermione fit in both Gryffindor and Ravenclaw but the Sorting Hat couldn't put her in both. She was very vocal about wanting Gryffindor while on the train, and I'm sure her preference played a role in the sorting.

This is what I've tried to say in earlier posts. While the Sorting Hat chooses based on one trait per house, that doesn't mean the student only has one trait.

Potioncat, who thinks Hermione uses any means to get what she wants and would have been a heck of a Slytherin if not for the stupid Pureblood thing.




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Nov 19 03:47:44 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:47:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS:
 Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <he1dj0+pumt@eGroups.com>
References: <he1dj0+pumt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B04BFE0.9030403@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188445

Alla:
> I will be the last person to disagree with manipulative theory, but I will ask simply out of curiosity, how do you think Dumbledore did it?
>   

Bart:
    I'm going to say how I think he COULD have done it. First of all, he 
had been keeping track of Harry (via Figgy at least), and knew his 
personality. He also knew that he would be a sucker for a loving family, 
like, say, the Weasleys (making sure he befriended Hagrid was a 
no-brainer; consider that Hagrid got away with several things that 
should have gotten him in legal trouble, all to impress Harry). Making 
sure that Harry ran into the Weasleys at the right time wouldn't take 
too much manipulation on his part. I don't think that Molly knew DD 
wanted Ron to meet Harry, but Arthur could have been in on it.

    As for Hermione, note that she got a LOT of knowledge of the WW in 
advance of attending Hogwarts. Almost as if she had a magical mentor. 
Probably not direct. Probably not even someone directly tied with 
Hogwarts. But Harry was certainly manipulated into wanting to be in 
Gryffindor (I can see DD saying, "By the way, Hagrid, wouldn't it be 
something if Harry ended up in our old House?" which would be 
sufficient). And Minnie the Cat always seemed to know more than she was 
letting on.

    Note that Hermione started out making friendly overtures. Once 
again, I don't think she was told, "Make friends with Harry and Ron!"; 
certainly, I don't think she would have kept it a secret. But I do think 
she received encouragement; note that she did make an effort to befriend 
them at first, and how upset she was when she was rebuffed (which did 
lead to them becoming friends). The troll was convenient; if it didn't 
happen one way, it would have happned another.
  
    There was a movie involving con artists a few years back (I won't 
give the name to avoid spoilers). It involved a complex plot. The key 
thing to remember when the plot was revealed was that it was not a 
meticulous plan with incredible coincidences moving it along; the 
plotter simply had the skills to see the opportunities and take them, 
modifying the plan continually as opportunities presented themselves. I 
see a similar form of manipulation taking place here.

    Bart



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 19 04:02:04 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:02:04 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS: Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <4B04BFE0.9030403@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <he2fvs+45fg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188446



Bart:
I'm going to say how I think he COULD have done it. First of all, he
had been keeping track of Harry (via Figgy at least), and knew his
personality. He also knew that he would be a sucker for a loving family,
like, say, the Weasleys (making sure he befriended Hagrid was a
no-brainer; consider that Hagrid got away with several things that
should have gotten him in legal trouble, all to impress Harry). Making
sure that Harry ran into the Weasleys at the right time wouldn't take
too much manipulation on his part. I don't think that Molly knew DD
wanted Ron to meet Harry, but Arthur could have been in on it.
<SNIP>
There was a movie involving con artists a few years back (I won't
give the name to avoid spoilers). It involved a complex plot.

Alla:

Okay, thanks for the explanation, I understand the mechanics now. I guess I am just with Potioncat, to me it is a bit too much of a stretch, even for Dumbledore.

However, sure, there is nothing to say that it could not have happened as you described. I just choose to think that they met by complete accident, I guess I just do not want to think of what I think as one of the best friendships in literature starting as manipulation.







From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 19 04:10:29 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (Janelle)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:10:29 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of Erised
Message-ID: <he2gfl+ii7l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188447

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CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone,
Chapter Twelve, The Mirror of Erised

The action of the story skips ahead to mid-December and the kids are all getting excited about their holiday break;  Harry and Ron sign up to stay at Hogwarts.  Draco resumes insulting Harry and Ron about their families, while Harry, Ron and Hermione start spending all of their free time in the library, trying to find out who Nicholas Flamel is.
On Christmas morning Harry wakes up to a pile of gifts that he did not expect.  He opens a flute from Hagrid, a 50-pence piece from the Dursleys, A Weasley Sweater from Mrs. Weasley, a box of chocolate frogs from Hermione, and an Invisibility Cloak accompanied by a mysterious note that reads: Your father left this in my possession before he died.  It is time it was returned to you.  Use it well.  A Very Merry Christmas to you.
Later, Harry and the Weasleys go down for Christmas dinner in the Great Hall, have a snow ball fight, and spend the evening by the Gryffindor fire.  Finally, after getting into bed, Harry is free to think about his Invisibility Cloak: where it had come from, and what he could do with it.  Harry sneaks down to the Restricted Section of the library to see if he can find anything out about Nicholas Flamel.  After opening a screaming book, attracting the attention of Filch and Snape, Harry runs for it and hides in an empty classroom.  In that room Harry finds the Mirror of Erised.  In it he sees himself surrounded by at least ten people.  He realizes that the two closest to him are his parents.  
The next day Harry brings Ron to see the mirror.  Instead of seeing his family, as Harry expected, Ron sees himself: alone, older, Head Boy and Quidditch captain.  Harry returns to the classroom with the Mirror the next night and this time he meets Dumbledore.  Dumbledore tells Harry that the mirror shows us the deepest, most desperate desire of our hearts and that men have wasted away in front of it.  He says that the mirror will be moved and asks Harry not to go looking for it.  Harry asks Dumbledore what he sees in the mirror and Dumbledore responds that he sees himself holding a thick pair of woolen socks.  Harry later wonders if Dumbledore had been telling the truth.
Discussion Questions:
1.       Who did you think the Invisibility Cloak was from?
2.       Filch says that Snape asked him to inform him if anyone was prowling the corridors at night- what did you think of this the first time you read it?  Who did you think that Snape might suspect would be out of bed?
3.       Dumbledore says later that he didn't get the idea to use the Mirror of Erised to hide the stone until after Harry's encounter with it- so why was it in the school or in that classroom to begin with?  What do you think is the origin of the Mirror?
4.       Harry sees at least ten members of his family in the mirror.  Two are his parents, and we can assume that four are his grandparents.  Who do you think the remaining four-plus people are, and what happened to them?  How could such a large family all die so young in the wizarding world, leaving Harry alone?
5.       Did you expect Ron to grow up to be Head Boy and Quidditch Captain?  Do you think he might have if events had unfolded differently and Voldemort hadn't returned?
6.       How did Dumbledore know that Harry had found the mirror and what Harry and Ron had seen in it?  What do you think are his ways of becoming invisible without a cloak?
7.       Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in the mirror?  What were your theories on what he might have seen?
8.       What would you see if you looked into the Mirror of Erised?
9.       Just for fun, what do you imagine are some of the ways of getting Draco expelled that Harry and Ron dreamed up by the Gryffindor fire?

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 13, Nicholas Flamel, on November 24, 2009.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion,
please drop a note  to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).





From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Nov 19 04:39:28 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:39:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS:
 Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <he2fvs+45fg@eGroups.com>
References: <he2fvs+45fg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B04CC00.2080306@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188448

Alla:
> Okay, thanks for the explanation, I understand the mechanics now. I guess I am just with Potioncat, to me it is a bit too much of a stretch, even for Dumbledore.

Bart:
    Well, the thing is that here were a series of traps designed to 
thwart even the most skilled of adult wizards, and three first years 
just happened to have exactly the right set of skills to get past them. 
And Dumbledore clearly expected the Trio to get through them; he says as 
much to Harry. This makes it hard to believe that it was a coincidence.

    Bart




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Nov 19 12:59:49 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:59:49 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of Erised
In-Reply-To: <he2gfl+ii7l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he3fg5+i1qp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188449

Janelle:

1. Who did you think the Invisibility Cloak was from?

Potioncat:
I can't imagine not knowing it was DD--but I don't remember if I ever suspected it was from him--at least not until it was returned after the dragon incident.


2. Filch says that Snape asked him to inform him if anyone was prowling
the corridors at night- what did you think of this the first time you read it? Who did you think that Snape might suspect would be out of bed?

Potioncat: 
The wording really jumped out at me this time!  Filch says "You asked me to come directly to you, Professor, if anyone was wandering about at night 
" Snape responds with pronouns (it's only in TMTMNBN that anyone mentions a student being out of bed)  After all these years I think Snape was keeping a look-out for Quirrell, in the past I thought he was either always watching for students or was keeping a close watch on Harry.

3. Dumbledore says later that he didn't get the idea to use the Mirror of
Erised to hide the stone until after Harry's encounter with it- so why was it in
the school or in that classroom to begin with? What do you think is the origin
of the Mirror?

Potioncat:
Can you give the source for that? I can't find it. But it is odd that the mirror wasn't put in place until after Christmas.

4. Harry sees at least ten members of his family in the mirror. Two are
his parents, and we can assume that four are his grandparents. Who do you think
the remaining four-plus people are, and what happened to them? How could such a
large family all die so young in the wizarding world, leaving Harry alone?

Potioncat:
The mirror doesn't show the truth, it shows what you desire. It's reasonable that he would see his parents; he knows what they look like--but I think the others were from his imagination. It won't do to try to make too much sense out of the short life spans of Harry's family. He had to be an orphan so they all had to meet early ends.

5. Did you expect Ron to grow up to be Head Boy and Quidditch Captain? Do
you think he might have if events had unfolded differently and Voldemort hadn't
returned?

Potioncat:
Yes, I did think he would for a long time--especially after he made Prefect. If things had been different Harry probably would have been Best Boy, as he did become captain.

6. How did Dumbledore know that Harry had found the mirror and what Harry
and Ron had seen in it? What do you think are his ways of becoming invisible
without a cloak?

Potioncat:
I imagine he was watching to see what Harry would do with the IC. How did DD become invisible? There's the disillusionment charm (do I have that right?) and I'm sure DD knows more spells than we do.

7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in
the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen?

Potioncat:
Yes I did, gullible me. Boy, did those socks generate a ton of theories! From a personal note, there was one Christmas that all of my husband's siblings and their children came to his mother's house for Christmas. What a crowd! She gave socks to everyone, wrapped up in surprising ways. Everyone got a big laugh out of it and I was quietly thinking that DD would be ecstatic.


8. What would you see if you looked into the Mirror of Erised?

Potioncat:
Me, holding a pair of socks.

9. Just for fun, what do you imagine are some of the ways of getting Draco
expelled that Harry and Ron dreamed up by the Gryffindor fire?

Potioncat:
Make him think there's something curious in the Shrieking Shack and that he could get there by tricking the Whomping Willow?


Potioncat:
My question:
>From canon, after Harry tries on the IC. "I'd give anything for one of those," Ron said. "Anything." The IC is a Deathly Hallow and we know the story of the three brothers (as does Ron).  What does this tell us about Ron? What does it say about him that he isn't tempted by the Mirror?

Thanks for the discussion, Janelle!





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Nov 19 15:35:59 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:35:59 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS: Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <4B04CC00.2080306@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <he3okv+j5mq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188450


> Bart:
>     Well, the thing is that here were a series of traps designed to 
> thwart even the most skilled of adult wizards, and three first years 
> just happened to have exactly the right set of skills to get past them. 
> And Dumbledore clearly expected the Trio to get through them; he says as 
> much to Harry. This makes it hard to believe that it was a coincidence.


Potioncat:
Much like LV's boat that would only take one adult wizard...the traps weren't expecting 3 wizards. It would have been more difficult for a single wizard to have the knowledge and skills to manage the different types of challenges if he did not know what to expect. It's interesting that the chess set didn't kill the player, would have been a better trap. This should make for a good discussion when we get to that chapter.

But I guess this is your point, that the Trio had just the right skills. I might be more convinced if there was canon that showed the traps developed over time. (and maybe there is.) Knowing who Harry's companions were would make it easier to suggest types of traps for the professors to develop. And that's easier to grasp than DD knowing ahead of time who would have the skills and how to have them meet Harry.




From thedossetts at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 17:49:03 2009
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:49:03 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN LONG
In-Reply-To: <4B041B88.4020708@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <he40ef+606o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188451



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> POWERBABE7 at ... wrote:
> > This might be off topic but if Ravenclaw is a house of intellectuals 
> > then I wonder why Hermione was not placed in Ravenclaw. I have always 
> > wondered about that.
> >   
> 
> Bart:
>     JKR has strongly implied that the student's desire is a major 
> consideration in the choice of the Sorting Hat. Also, we don't know how 
> much the headmaster has to do with the choices; it is still my 
> contention that the fact that Harry becoming friends with exactly the 
> people he needed to get to the Stone was either such an unbelievable 
> coincidence as to be considered incredibly bad writing, or Dumbledore 
> manipulated events to ensure that the three would become friends. I'd 
> like to think that JKR is, or was, not THAT bad a writer.
> 
>     Bart
>


Pat:

I always understood that the friendship was supposed to be chance - it was chance that Ron and Harry met on the train, and chance that the whole troll incident led to them saving Hermione and the trio becoming The Trio.   DD was certainly manipulative, in many things, but to think that he had THIS much control is making him to be, literally, God.  I think that at least this much of the story is meant to be coincidence, not the result of manipulation.  Otherwise, I agree, the story becomes unpalatable.

Pat




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Nov 19 20:34:16 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:34:16 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 10, THE HALLOWEEN LONG
In-Reply-To: <he40ef+606o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he4a48+961s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188452



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rtbthw_mom" <thedossetts at ...> wrote:

Bart:
> > Also, we don't know how 
> > much the headmaster has to do with the choices; it is still my 
> > contention that the fact that Harry becoming friends with exactly the 
> > people he needed to get to the Stone was either such an unbelievable 
> > coincidence as to be considered incredibly bad writing, or Dumbledore 
> > manipulated events to ensure that the three would become friends. I'd 
> > like to think that JKR is, or was, not THAT bad a writer.

Pat: 
> I always understood that the friendship was supposed to be chance - it was chance that Ron and Harry met on the train, and chance that the whole troll incident led to them saving Hermione and the trio becoming The Trio.   DD was certainly manipulative, in many things, but to think that he had THIS much control is making him to be, literally, God.  I think that at least this much of the story is meant to be coincidence, not the result of manipulation.  Otherwise, I agree, the story becomes unpalatable.

Geoff:
To an extent, you are taking a diametrically opposite view to Bart who 
considers that going down the coincidence route makes JKR a bad writer.
I suggested in my last post that perhaps it is a combination of both.

Speaking from my experience as a Christian, I have had occasions when 
things have seemingly just happened casually or concidentally but have 
then had quite major effects on  my life and others around me. I tend to 
call these "divine coincidences".

Mark you, that doesn't mean that I subscribe to the "Dumbledore is God" 
line of thinking. Far from it. Just that, in real life, coincidence is a funny thing, 
divine or secular.

Tolkien also uses the idea of apparently unrelated events having a bearing 
on major events. This could easily lead us to a big "What if..?" debate.
:-)





From elfundeb at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 03:03:25 2009
From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:03:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS: 
	Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <he1gjn+iclh@eGroups.com>
References: <he1dj0+pumt@eGroups.com> <he1gjn+iclh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <80f25c3a0911191903y3442f046o5903377a6953192c@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188454

Mad Alice:
Yes, how would Dumbledore even know that Harry would meet Ron on the train?
And for that matter, the fact that he met Draco earlier in Diagon Alley, and
found him unpleasantly like his cousin Dudley, also influenced him when
Draco tried to warn him off Ron later at Hogwarts.
Dumbledore is a Machivellian manipulator, but he is not omniscient and
all-powerful--something Rowling in fact emphasizes every once in a while in
the books. I don't think even he could have managed to set Harry's whole
life experience up so that he would be friends with certain people when he
got to school.


Debbie:
 As Alice points out, even a master manipulator cannot gain complete control
over everyone's actions.  Thus, while I have no trouble believing that
Manipulative!Dumbledore set up the Stone's protections as a test for Harry,
it's not much of a test if he hands Harry all the tools he needs on a
platter.  JKR carefully arranged for us to meet Ron and Hermione (as well as
a host of other important characters) in that chapter, but I think she set
it up for the readers, not for Harry.

For Dumbledore to engineer Harry's choice of friends would diminish the
value of Harry's ability to discern the right sort of people to choose as
friends, which stems from Harry's own qualities.  And Dumbledore had already
figured out what those qualities were because he sent Hagrid to deliver
Harry's letter, fully expecting Hagrid to drop all the right hints (and
Hagrid wasted no opportunity to paint contrasting pictures of Slytherin and
Gryffindor).  Hagrid's report pretty well reassured Dumbledore of Harry's
character and his likely choice of Gryffindor, where he would meet plenty of
the right sort of people.

Besides, Dumbledore himself is a loner and wouldn't likely be arranging
Harry's friends for him.  Considering his penchant for secrecy, I wouldn't
be surprised if Dumbledore initially considered it a hindrance for Harry to
have friends.  However, I think he quickly came to appreciate the value that
Hermione and Ron added to Harry's mission, and made sure that their help
would be required to overcome the Stone's protections.  (The Mirror of
Erised was not moved until after Christmas, so Dumbledore well knew who
Harry's friends were by then.)

Dumbledore is a master manipulator, but a master manipulator relies on his
understanding of others' characters in choosing who will undertake a
particular mission and then allows events to take their course.  In this
regard, Hagrid is putty in his hands, and Harry performs like a wind-up toy.

Debbie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 20 03:11:27 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:11:27 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of Erised
In-Reply-To: <he2gfl+ii7l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he51cv+j5t3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188455

1.	Who did you think the Invisibility Cloak was from?

Alla:

I think I will answer same as Potioncat, it is hard for me to even imagine now that I did not know that it is from Dumbledore, but I cannot be sure if I thought it the first time I read it.


2. Filch says that Snape asked him to inform him if anyone was prowling
the corridors at night- what did you think of this the first time you read it? 

Who did you think that Snape might suspect would be out of bed?


Alla:

Not Quirrel, that's for sure!

3. Dumbledore says later that he didn't get the idea to use the Mirror of
Erised to hide the stone until after Harry's encounter with it- so why was it in
the school or in that classroom to begin with? What do you think is the origin
of the Mirror?

Alla:

See, THIS sort of thing is to me a perfect example where I can totally buy Dumbledore's manipulativeness and cruelty. I am having a lot of trouble buying the idea that he could have predicted and known how three kids will get to know each other so well, like and love each other so well, etc, but these sorts of games to me is exactly the games Dumbledore would play.

So, I do not believe him for one second that he got the idea to use the mirror after Harry's encounter with it. I think that he had that idea way before and then brought Mirror to school and showed Harry how it works. Cruel, but effective if you ask me

6. How did Dumbledore know that Harry had found the mirror and what Harry
and Ron had seen in it? What do you think are his ways of becoming invisible
without a cloak?

Alla:

I just think he knows a complex charm to make him invisible.

7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in
the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen?

Alla:

Oh, that I remember very well, nope, not for a second. I had no doubt that he was lying there, because to me it was way too trivial, I thought that he kept his true wish to himself.

Of course I had no idea what he really saw, but was sure that not socks lol.

Thanks for the interesting questions Janelle!









From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 20 03:28:45 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:28:45 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <he0q9d+sv8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he52dd+c3hp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188456



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> The chapter discussion on "The Sorting Hat" has generated a long thread about house traits and values. So, I was thinking it might be fun to see how each of us would do if we were able to be the Sorting Hat for a day. Here are some questions, just for fun. Please provide canon support for your answers and feel free to add other questions.
> 
> Which characters do you think exemplify the attributes of their houses? There can be multiple if you think there are several, but choose one main representative from each house.
> 
> Are there any characters who don't live up to their house standards?
> 
> Dumbledore thinks they sort too soon. Are there any characters you would sort differently than the Sorting Hat did?
> 
> Are there any characters who are sorted appropriately, but you think would have fit in another house just as well?
> 
> Do you think being in a different house would have made a difference in a character's life?
> 
> Potioncat-in-the-Hat
>


Alla:

Oh I love this! So which characters exemplify the values of their houses? See, I am already running in the too many to choose from for Gryffindor - Harry of course, Ron and Hermione - I mean, all their fight against Voldemort is one huge canon example, I am not sure which ones to choose from?

Okay, going through stone defenses of course was extremely brave to me, Ron sacrificing himself in Chess game, Harry putting himself against Quirrel!Mort.

Harry fighting Tommie in the Chambers. We have Harry and Hermione daring rescue of Sirius in PoA.

We have Harry's daring duel in GoF, we have Hermione idiotically and IMO extremely bravely leading Umbridge to centaurs.

We have the whole book of Trio's bravery in DH.

Of course we have Neville standing up to Trio and Neville standing up to Malfoy and Neville and Ginny fighting good fight in DH. I mean, really seriously really hard to choose the bravest warrior for me.

See, and now it gets bad already. We have a House of Intellectuals, Ravenclaw and whom do we have there? Luna? THAT is the best example JKR could come with?

Really, I have nothing against Luna, I mean I am not a big fan of her, but I do not dislike her or anything, but where is the example of wonderful, powerful intellect from that House?


Hufflepuff? Heck, I guess Cedric counts.

Slytherin? Oh, Draco Malfoy, absolutely, sneaky, sleasy, hateful bastard IMO, somebody who considered anybody whose blood is less pure than him to be beneath him and supposedly having ambition to be the best servant for Dark Lord till he saw what that really meant and not having stomach for that. Of course this characterization is how I interpret him, I am not saying that this is the only possible reading or anything.

Hm, characters who do not live up to their House standards? Well, Snape I guess if we go per Dumbledore lol.

Pettigrew? But do we know that he was indeed a coward?

I thought I would sort Percy differently, I would definitely put Hermione in Ravenclaw, just because I would love somebody from there to shine. But I understand why she was sorted to Gryffindor.

So, except Hermione, nope I do not know any characters who would have fit in another House just as well. As I mentioned before, I thought Hat was testing Harry and always meant for him to be in Gryffindor, but nobody else comes to mind.

Except I guess Snape, if we go by Dumbledore lol.

Fun game, thanks.

JMO,

Alla






From caaf at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 19 10:53:14 2009
From: caaf at hotmail.com (Cyril Andrew Fernandes)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:53:14 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS:
 Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <4B04CC00.2080306@moosewise.com>
References: <he2fvs+45fg@eGroups.com>,<4B04CC00.2080306@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <SNT109-W3950F53D4A40DFDA5EE2A0CAA20@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 188457


 

 


To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
From: bart at moosewise.com
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:39:28 -0500
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS: Re: CHAPTER

  



Alla:
> Okay, thanks for the explanation, I understand the mechanics now. I guess I am just with Potioncat, to me it is a bit too much of a stretch, even for Dumbledore.

Bart:
Well, the thing is that here were a series of traps designed to 
thwart even the most skilled of adult wizards, and three first years 
just happened to have exactly the right set of skills to get past them. 
And Dumbledore clearly expected the Trio to get through them; he says as 
much to Harry. This makes it hard to believe that it was a coincidence.

Bart

 

 

Cyril here:


Well, it looks like all the defences on the stone were not put in at the start of the school year. For example the Mirror was placed in there much later. If DD wanted to 'enable' the trio to be able to penetrate the defences, he could have much more easily modified the defences at a later stage rather than try to forge the friendship - which he probably had no way to know would be the most suitable one - given how much he probably know about each of the individuals at that time.

 

Trying to possibly identify the right set of friends would mean filtering out all the students who were going to join Hogwarts that year, finding out those who would fit Gryffindor and then selecting some who would be able to be the 'right' frinds for Harry - not even sure what possible criteria he would place on that choice - other than basic elements of any friendship. It's much easier for DD to start his manipulations post looking at the friendships Harry made - any modifying his plan going forward.

 

On the other hand, as much as DD COULD have done that, I do not think he in any way wanted the Trio to penetrate the defences - there is no motive to that in itself - so why setup such defences that he believed could be penetrated by the Trio. I think it was like so many other things in the books that worked well for the Trio - and not necessarily manipulated.

 

Cyril - , just thinking that sometimes its better to see what is there, than what we want to see there :)
 		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Fri Nov 20 04:30:39 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:30:39 -0800
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
Message-ID: <DBD0BC039A1447DFB09B03A85F2BF11A@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188458

>Potioncat-in-the-Hat
 
>The chapter discussion on "The Sorting Hat" has generated a long thread
about house traits and values. So, I was thinking it might be fun to see how
each of us would do if we were able to be 
>the Sorting Hat for a day. Here are some questions, just for fun. Please
provide canon support for your answers and feel free to add other questions.

>Which characters do you think exemplify the attributes of their houses?
There can be multiple if you think there are several, but choose one main
representative from each house.
 
--Ginny Weasley, Gryffindor. She's cheerful, outgoing, (ok, before the
little problem she had with the diary), and very straightforward. She's also
ready to use violence instead of words when she's angry with someone, which
she usually gets away with. Unfortunately, this happens a lot in canon with
Gryffindors (Marauders, twins, Harry when he slices Draco open, etc.). 
 
--Theodore Nott, Slytherin. You have no idea what he thinks or what he's
planning, and generally goes unnoticed. Frankly, he sounds very intelligent
in this regard. 
 
--Luna Lovegood, Ravenclaw. She seeks knowledge anywhere and everywhere, and
doesn't mind looking silly as long as she's learning something. 
 
--Cedric Diggory, Hufflepuff. He's a 19th century British recruiting poster
come to life. Honorable, steadfast, fair-minded, what happened to him was
very unfair. For once Hufflepuff had a chance to shine, till Barty Crouch
Jr. had other thoughts. 

Are there any characters who don't live up to their house standards?

--Draco Malfoy is as subtle as a rock. He refuses to stop, look, and listen
in a world that is much more dangerous than he thinks it is, and presumes
that he is superior without bothering to check (although Hermione bothers
the heck out of him, quite likely because Lucius is embarrassed to see a
Mudblood ahead of his son). He telegraphs his every move, and it isn't till
the 6th book till he is anywhere as sneaky as the Trio are. 
 
Dumbledore thinks they sort too soon. Are there any characters you would
sort differently than the Sorting Hat did?
 
--Percy would have made a splendid Hufflepuff, where his hard work and
diligence would have been appreciated, and not mocked. Ginny (after her
first year) would have made a really good Slytherin; as a little sister, her
learned ability to sneak around and do precisely what she wants while still
looking relatively innocent would have served her well in the house of the
Snake (though I'm sure Pansy would have strangled her somewhere along the
way). Snape would have been loyal to anyone who was loyal to him; but
Gryffindor would have been less safe than Slytherin, since the Marauders
would have had access to where he slept (and house loyalty would not have
gotten in the way of James' jealousy over Lily). The twins would have turned
Snape's hair gray if they'd sorted Slytherin, but frankly, that was where
they belonged. 

Are there any characters who are sorted appropriately, but you think would
have fit in another house just as well?

--Hermione would have been among her own kind (bookaholics) in Ravenclaw.
Neville might have made a good Hufflepuff, as would Ron, since both are so
loyal to their friends. Remus Lupin might have done better in Slytherin than
people think--some of them might have thought that a werewolf was way cool,
not terrible. He would also have done all right in Ravenclaw, since he
adored books as well. Snape would have been less persecuted in Hufflepuff;
his fellow House members would have thought four on one unfair, and he was
quite hard-working. Given that Spinner's End was basically insulated by
books, he would have done all right in Ravenclaw, too. Both Crabbe and Goyle
might have done just fine in Hufflepuff--they were quite loyal to Draco till
the end. Draco, if he survived the first few weeks of getting his head beat
in by people he'd insulted, might actually have thrived in Gryffindor once
he'd learned to crank it back a little. He was far too outspoken to make
that good a fit to Slytherin. 

Do you think being in a different house would have made a difference in a
character's life?
 
Yes. Neville would have felt less pressure to be brave, and more to be
loyal. He had to learn to be brave enough to go against his friends if he
thought they were wrong (though he soon learned to stop that sort of
nonsense when it came to the Trio). Hermione would have crawled into books
and never left, unless Luna dragged her out. Draco would have been a
semipermanent guest of Madam Pomfrey till he learned that he would just have
to suck it up and pull his own weight. Once he learned that other people
were not his house elves, he might have learned a great deal about how to
act around people. Snape would have had a more positive experience in any
house but Slytherin or Gryffindor. Ron might have found his own way in a
house that didn't have the twins in it. 

Jean Lamb
Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?
tlambs1138 at charter.ne <mailto:tlambs1138 at charter.net> t
excessivelyperky at www.fanfiction.net
 

 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 20 08:32:37 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:32:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <he0q9d+sv8f@eGroups.com>
References: <he0q9d+sv8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <173304.61980.qm@web46207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188459

?
>Which characters do you think exemplify the attributes of their houses? There can be multiple if you think there are several, but choose one main representative from each house.
?
?
Gryffindor: Harry
Hufflepuff: Cedric 
Ravenclaw: Luna (Well, who else do we *know* about apart from a bit of Cho?)
Slytherin: Lucius Malfoy


>Are there any characters who don't live up to their house standards?


Gryffindor: Pettigrew
Hufflepuff: Zacharias Smith ? was he modest?
Ravenclaw: *Maybe* Cho
Slytherin: Andromeda Tonks, Snape ? he didn?t seem to think ends justify the means


>Dumbledore thinks they sort too soon. Are there any characters you would sort differently than the Sorting Hat did?


Gryffindor: Zacharias Smith, Cho
Hufflepuff: Neville
Ravenclaw: Percy
Slytherin: Romilda Vane, I guess


>Are there any characters who are sorted appropriately, but you think would have fit in another house just as well?


Gryffindor: Ernie McMillan, Tonks
Hufflepuff: Harry, Lily, Charlie Weasley
Ravenclaw: Arthur & Bill Weasley
Slytherin: Romilda Vane, again :-)


>Do you think being in a different house would have made a difference in a character's life?

Probably, as there is a strong likelihood that one will get to meet people who think alike and so, may not have to face too much of censure / ridicule for what s/he is (or wants to be).
?
?
Enjoyed this! 
?
Cheers,
~Joey :-)



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bart at moosewise.com  Fri Nov 20 14:23:57 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:23:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's role in Trio becoming friends WAS:
 Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <SNT109-W3950F53D4A40DFDA5EE2A0CAA20@phx.gbl>
References: <he2fvs+45fg@eGroups.com>,<4B04CC00.2080306@moosewise.com> <SNT109-W3950F53D4A40DFDA5EE2A0CAA20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4B06A67D.8040008@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188460

Cyril:
> On the other hand, as much as DD COULD have done that, I do not think he in any way wanted the Trio to penetrate the defences - there is no motive to that in itself - so why setup such defences that he believed could be penetrated by the Trio.

Bart:
    I suspect that this will be one of the discussion questions, when we 
get to Chapter 17.

    Bart




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 21 00:51:52 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:51:52 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hdvo6u+tfth@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he7dj8+111f7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188461

Nikkalmati wrote:
> Bad guys

> Draco - he was given an opportunity and seemed to be inclined to turn back, but despite the efforts of Snape and Dumbledore, he is right back fighting for LV at the end.

Carol responds:

But is he? His behavior in the RoR is ambiguous, and he certainly tries (for whatever reason) to prevent Crabbe from casting AKs and Crucios and even from harming "that diadem thing." He *doesn't* go to join Voldemort in the forest. (Not even Crabbe, the most obviously pro-Voldemort Slytherin, does that.) And he loses the wand he borrowed from his mother in the RoR, so after Harry rescues him from the fire, he doesn't fight for anybody. (Nor do his parents.) He does tell a Death Eater who's about to kill him that he's on the DE's side, but he doesn't have much choice. He's not the brave sort who would say, I've rejected the Dark Lord--go ahead and kill me! I'd say that at the end of the books (epilogue and all) Draco and the other Malfoys have been thoroughly neutralized. They'll never be heroes, but they've ceased to be villains (and Lucius finds himself in the role of victim, if only on a small scale and for a little while).

> Nikkalmati (does this thing have a spell check?)
>
Carol: SeaMonkey does, and those red dotted lines are all over the place in both your post and my response. (It doesn't like "DE's," "Crucios, "Malfoys," or "RoR," not to mention "Nikkalmati"! But,er, "catelist" and "consumate" are actual errors.)

Carol, who finds spell checks rather annoying (or amusing, depending on her mood)




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Nov 21 04:38:47 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:38:47 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <he7dj8+111f7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he7qsn+3c9e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188462





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Nikkalmati wrote:
> > Bad guys
> 
> > Draco - he was given an opportunity and seemed to be inclined to turn back, but despite the efforts of Snape and Dumbledore, he is right back fighting for LV at the end.
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> But is he? His behavior in the RoR is ambiguous, and he certainly tries (for whatever reason) to prevent Crabbe from casting AKs and Crucios and even from harming "that diadem thing." He *doesn't* go to join Voldemort in the forest. (Not even Crabbe, the most obviously pro-Voldemort Slytherin, does that.) And he loses the wand he borrowed from his mother in the RoR, so after Harry rescues him from the fire, he doesn't fight for anybody. (Nor do his parents.) He does tell a Death Eater who's about to kill him that he's on the DE's side, but he doesn't have much choice. He's not the brave sort who would say, I've rejected the Dark Lord--go ahead and kill me! I'd say that at the end of the books (epilogue and all) Draco and the other Malfoys have been thoroughly neutralized. They'll never be heroes, but they've ceased to be villains (and Lucius finds himself in the role of victim, if only on a small scale and for a little while).
> 
> > Nikkalmati (does this thing have a spell check?)
> >
> Carol: SeaMonkey does, and those red dotted lines are all over the place in both your post and my response. (It doesn't like "DE's," "Crucios, "Malfoys," or "RoR," not to mention "Nikkalmati"! But,er, "catelist" and "consumate" are actual errors.)
> 
> Carol, who finds spell checks rather annoying (or amusing, depending on her mood)
>

Nikkalmati

Maybe it is just that I had some hope for Draco's showing some character development aftere the scene on the Tower.    But he and
Goyle and Crabbe were waiting disillusioned outside the ROR with the idea of capturing HP and taking him to the Dark Lord. He only tried to keep Crabbe from killing HP because the DL had ordered it.  He only tried to save the diadem because (very like a Slytherin) he figured it must be important if HP wanted it.  He clearly could not fight without a wand.  If he had had one, I don't know what side he would fight on. He may have been afraid to cross to the Forest to join LV without a wand (and if he had what would have happened to HP?  Narcissa would not have had a motive to lie to LV about HP being dead). He turned down his chance at redemption, so I still consider him a bad guy even if he was neutralized.  

Nikkalmati (I knew I had some misspellings in there)    




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Nov 21 15:21:23 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:21:23 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <he7dj8+111f7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he90hj+js1a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188463


> 
> Carol responds:He's not the brave sort who would say, I've rejected the Dark Lord--go ahead and kill me! I'd say that at the end of the books (epilogue and all) Draco and the other Malfoys have been thoroughly neutralized. They'll never be heroes, but they've ceased to be villains (and Lucius finds himself in the role of victim, if only on a small scale and for a little while).
> 

Pippin:

In the end, we find the Malfoys  literally "among the great and good." They may not look as though they belong there, but no one is bothered about them. Being a Malfoy  or a Slytherin is not in itself the mark of a dark wizard, despite what Hagrid thinks. Nor is being in Gryffindor in itself the mark of a hero, for Harry also found Gryffindors among the cowardly and the dark.


Pippin:
whose spell check doesn't like Gryffindors






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 21 15:30:37 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:30:37 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <he7qsn+3c9e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he912t+al2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188464

> Nikkalmati
> 
> Maybe it is just that I had some hope for Draco's showing some character development aftere the scene on the Tower.    But he and
> Goyle and Crabbe were waiting disillusioned outside the ROR with the idea of capturing HP and taking him to the Dark Lord. He only tried to keep Crabbe from killing HP because the DL had ordered it.  He only tried to save the diadem because (very like a Slytherin) he figured it must be important if HP wanted it.  He clearly could not fight without a wand.  If he had had one, I don't know what side he would fight on. He may have been afraid to cross to the Forest to join LV without a wand (and if he had what would have happened to HP?  Narcissa would not have had a motive to lie to LV about HP being dead). He turned down his chance at redemption, so I still consider him a bad guy even if he was neutralized.  

Magpie:
I thought it was pretty clear that Draco wasn't fighting *for* LV at the end there, and even more clear that his not wanting Crabbe to kill Harry was mostly down to Draco not wanting Crabbe to kill Harry. (He also stopped him from killing Hermione, didn't he?) The one thing we can say about Draco, I think, is that he definitely learned that he doesn't relish that kind of cruelty and violence, even against people he doesn't like. His saying that LV had ordered against it was just the most obvious way to get Crabbe to stop. It seems like he's basically trying to stay alive, which means hopefully having LV pleased enough with him and his family or at least not angry enough at them that he'll leave them alone. It also means claiming to be "on your side" to the DE who's attacking him when he has no wand. If Draco had to honestly pick a side he wanted to win I think it's clear it would be Harry Potter all the way. He just avoids ever having to say that actively. His choices against Voldemort are as passive and unobtrusive as he can make them, because he really is limited by the fact that he simply *can't* be on Voldemort's side because he's incompatible with them. (He could be bigoted, but when faced with what LV truly represents he's just sickened.)

So I'd basically agree with you--neutralized. Though I'd disagree in that I don't see him neutralized because he just didn't get the chance to fight for LV like he wanted. His failure, imo, wasn't that he just didn't have the means to fight for LV, but that he didn't have the courage to take the next step and declare for the other side.

-m




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Nov 21 16:52:57 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:52:57 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <he912t+al2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he95t9+kdbn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188465


Magpie: 
> So I'd basically agree with you--neutralized. Though I'd disagree in that I don't see him neutralized because he just didn't get the chance to fight for LV like he wanted. His failure, imo, wasn't that he just didn't have the means to fight for LV, but that he didn't have the courage to take the next step and declare for the other side.

Pippin:
The Malfoys may not have had the courage, or the desire, to declare themselves openly anti-Voldemort (and who'd believe them if they did?) But running into the middle of a battle without a weapon shows courage enough, IMO.

Pippin




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Nov 21 20:51:26 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:51:26 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <he912t+al2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he9jse+gvb8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188466

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sistermagpie at ... wrote:

Nikkalmati:
> > He turned down his chance at redemption, so I still consider him a bad guy even if he was neutralized.  
 
Magpie:
> I thought it was pretty clear that Draco wasn't fighting *for* LV at the end there, and  
> So I'd basically agree with you--neutralized. Though I'd disagree in that I don't see him neutralized because he just didn't get the chance to fight for LV like he wanted. His failure, imo, wasn't that he just didn't have the means to fight for LV, but that he didn't have the courage to take the next step and declare for the other side.

Geoff:
Members who have been on the group for some time will 
know that I have on a number of occasions said that I have 
a sneaking regard for Draco and that I had hoped that JKR 
would introduce some sort of rapprochement with Harry in 
the books - which really didn't materialise.

I think that there is a measure of unfairness in the views 
expressed above.

I think it is obvious by the end of Deathly Hallows that Draco 
is suffering some degree of internal turmoil. Until the end of 
Half Blood Prince, he has indeed been an unpleasant person, 
with blinkered and obsessive views which are then violently 
undermined on the Tower. 

But consider: he is an only child and has been influenced by 
his parents who brainwash him about pureblood status, 
power, anti-Muggleism and the omnipotence of Voldemort 
over Dumbledore and, by implication, Harry. So, by the time 
he enters Hogwarts, his outlook on life has been deeply 
moulded. Then, on the Tower, these foundations of Dark 
philosophy are challenged.

A kind of mirror image comparison occurred to me: that of 
British soldiers in the First World War. Before conscription 
was introduced, thousands of civilians volunteered to join 
the armed services, urged on by the wave of patriotism, 
Kitchener's "Your country needs you" posters and the ideas 
of warfare as being a gallant battle against evil enemies - 
"Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori". Later, when those 
guys were in the trenches, knee deep in mud, with thousands
of their compatriots dead around them as the reality , I wonder 
how many of them thought "God, what persuaded me that this 
was the right thing to do?"

I see Draco reaching this point. He has gone through the sixth year
trying to cpmplete Voldemort's task and then facing Dumbledore 
and the reality kicking in as to what he was supposed to do.

I don't think, as Magpie suggests, that "he didn't have the courage to 
take the next step and declare for the other side". He didn't get the 
opportunity to do this. On the Tower, he appeared to be about to do 
that when he was interrupted by the arrival of the Death Eaters. He 
was then hauled away by Snape and, throughout Deathly Hallows, is 
hardly in a position to make a move.

He is obviously moving away from accepting Voldemort's actions from 
the very beginning of the last book. Even  before Draco's failure to 
"recognise" Harry at Malfoy Manor or the Fiendfyre incident, Draco 
is shown to be present, almost as a prisoner, terrified of Voldemort 
when he kills Charity Burbage.

We all have elements of evil or good within us and we are influenced 
to choose which way we prefer, which harks back to Dumbledore's  
famous remark about their effect on us.

But looking at it from a Christian angle, the opportunity is there to 
change our direction and move towards good; there are innumerable
examples of this happening in the real world, one classic being St.Paul.
Draco was beginning to see that he had followed a false trail. Some of 
his actions show that lessons had been learned although how much 
would change after Voldemort's death we are not told. I am sometimes 
intrigued by the nod - albeit curt - given to Harry by Draco in the 
epilogue. But that is perhaps another story.










From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 21 23:55:51 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:55:51 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <he9jse+gvb8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <he9um7+l9d4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188467

---  "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> Geoff:
> ...
> 
> I think it is obvious by the end of Deathly Hallows that Draco 
> is suffering some degree of internal turmoil. ...en violently 
> undermined on the Tower. 
> 
> ...
> 
> A kind of mirror image comparison occurred to me: that of 
> British soldiers in the First World War. Before conscription 
> was introduced, thousands of civilians volunteered to join 
> the armed services, urged on by the wave of patriotism, 
> ... Later, when those guys were in the trenches, knee deep 
> in mud, with thousands of their compatriots dead around them 
> as the reality , I wonder how many of them thought "God, what
> persuaded me that this was the right thing to do?"
> 
> I see Draco reaching this point. He has gone through the sixth
> year trying to cpmplete Voldemort's task and then facing 
> Dumbledore  and the reality kicking in as to what he was 
> supposed to do.
> 
> ...
>

bboyminn:

Yes, I agree, like soldiers in war, once you are in the thick
of battle, and circumstances are requiring the most immoral 
and inhuman things of you, what can you do but endure. It
is no longer a matter of whose side you are on; others have
made that decision for you. It is no longer a matter of
whether you fight for right or wrong, that too is a decision
make by others.

I think like a soldier thrown into the heat of battle, Draco
has been relieved of all decisions. He is caught up in a
overwhelming tide, and regardless of his personal desires,
he is forced to be carried on that tide. He simply faces,
a kill or be killed situation, and in that situation we all
decide, that with in the limits of our power to do so, we
prefer to kill over being killed. 

I think to some extent, that is what Draco is doing in the
final Room of Requirements battle. He is not supporting
Voldemort, but more doing what must be done to survive. But
we see he takes no pleasre in the act; unlike Crabbe and 
Goyle, who seem to have embraced their new roles. It is not
something Draco desires, but something that inevitably must
be done if he is going to survive the wizarding war. 

Notice, he wants no direct responsibility for torturing or
killing the Trio, though he must understand that that will
inevitably be their fate. But he also knows, he doesn't want
to be the one who does it. 

I'm not freeing Draco of all moral, ethical, or spiritual
responsibility. He own arrogance brought him to his final
fate. But, I have no doubt, that much like soldiers in the
trenches, if it was possible to walk away with no consequences,
Draco would have done so. 

Still, that is a silly and foolish wish - no consequences, he
has committed acts already that certainly have consequences, 
and there is simply no escaping those. And once has has stepped
into the quicksand, there is nothing he can do but sink.

I think the Malfoy's got off pretty easy. Though it was clear,
they had no desire to continue to server Voldemort, and that 
they took know direct part in the final battle. They still did
some pretty nasty things, that should have come with consequences. 

Still, stupid idiot that he was, after Dumbledore's death, Draco
was simply caught up in circumstances that were too powerful
for him to control. There is nothing he could do but try and
survive.

He's still a nasty prat though.

Steve/bboyminn




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sun Nov 22 00:29:33 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:29:33 -0000
Subject: Platform 9 3/4 /  Hufflepuff / Joining LV / Potters in hiding
In-Reply-To: <hdvppd+t2kl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hea0ld+p1ed@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188468


Nikkalmati
 
I am not sure how that fits.  Snape would have had to be the one to tell DD that the Potters had been targeted, and that makes the scene on the hilltop shortly after Harry was born?  I have seen timelines that conclude Snape told DD shortly before the Potters went under the Fidelius, but I can't recreate it.  Anyone out there remember?
 
I am not sure when children are christened in the UK.  It used to be children in my church were christened at a few weeks, but we now see more older infants and a few toddlers. 
 
Nikkalmati

Marianne

I'm in the U.S.  In my church infants/children are usually blessed around their 3rd month of life.  But I don't know about other religions.

Marianne





From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sun Nov 22 01:02:43 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:02:43 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of Erised
In-Reply-To: <he3fg5+i1qp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hea2jj+tcsl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188469



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...>  2. Filch says that Snape asked him to inform him if anyone was prowling the corridors at night- what did you think of this the first time you read it? Who did you think that Snape might suspect would be out of bed?

Marianne:

I was thinking any student.  Since there was a warning about the third floor, maybe a student would sooner or later become curious and start looking around, especially over the Christmas holidays where there aren't so many students around.  Less of a chance of running into someone including a teacher.  There is always Fred and George.  They have this tendency to wander about, and DD knows that and give warning to the other teachers.


7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen?

Marianne:

Yes.  I thought it strange, but yes.  No theories on that.

8. What would you see if you looked into the Mirror of Erised?

Marianne:

Ireland.  U2 in Ireland.  Europe.  A U2 concert in any or all European countries this last summer.  A bag of money in my hand.  Money enough to have followed the band all summer.

This little band, (yeah right. They haven't been a little band for years) is my musical passion.  It's up there in my top 10 of passions.




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sun Nov 22 01:26:17 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:26:17 -0700
Subject: A Few Questions
Message-ID: <B2F326A4D67D4C7589AD415A139575E9@Marianne>

No: HPFGUIDX 188470

I have a few questions.  Nothing to do with the discussions on the books, but if I don't ask now I know I'll never remember later on.

Muggle and Wizards weddings.  How would weddings be arranged when a muggle marries a wizards.  Both parties would want their own wedding, but how does one explain to the muggles that their son or daughter is marrying a wizard?   Even after the couple has married, how do muggles explain their children's lifestyle.  Say what their children do for a living?  I keep thinking of Petunia and Vernon telling Marge that Harry's parents were unemployed, Marge saying they were wastrels.  Although they are cruel.  I don't think all muggles would be that cruel.

The children.  How about explaing a wizard/witch baby to the muggle relatives.  After all younger witches/wizards can't control their magic very well.  They can't hide them, can they?

Of course I forgot the second question.  Story of my life.

Seems that no how terrible the Dursleys treated Harry, they did teach him manners.  Wonder why, since they didn't care much about him, and did their best to keep him out of the way.  I would have thought they would have let the muggles just think he was nasty little boy and keep him friendless.  Although he is friendless anyway.

That wasn't the second question.  Still trying to remember it.

Marianne



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From philipwhiuk at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 22 02:03:47 2009
From: philipwhiuk at hotmail.com (Philip Whitehouse)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:03:47 +0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP60BD416EBACDE13262BE7AA39F0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 188471

Geoff said:
"he is an only child and has been influenced by his parents who  
brainwash him about pureblood status"

I think that by the decision on the Tower Draco is no longer a child.  
In the same way that Harry made adult decisions to 'play the hero',  
Draco saw that - albeit misguidedly - appeasement of Voldemort's  
wishes would save his parents. This self-sacrifice is an adult  
decision so using the 'child' defence is not valid I feel. That said I  
agree with your other points and conclusion.

-Philip, who doesn't get much time to post but enjoys reading all the  
discussion when he has the time!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 22 02:14:38 2009
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Joey)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:14:38 -0000
Subject: Platform 9 3/4 /  Hufflepuff / Joining LV / Potters in hiding
In-Reply-To: <hea0ld+p1ed@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hea6qe+io5k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188472

<snip> 
> Marianne
> 
> I'm in the U.S.  In my church infants/children are usually blessed around their 3rd month of life.  But I don't know about other religions.

Joeydebs:

I'm in an UK evangelical Christian church and we recently had a dedication - similar to a christening - for five children ranging from a couple of months to two and a half years old. Mostly children are dedicated within the first few months of their lives.

I looked up on the CofE website and they state that baptism can happen at any age. The same is true of the Catholic Church.




From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 22 02:44:11 2009
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Joey)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:44:11 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of Erised
In-Reply-To: <he2gfl+ii7l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hea8hr+rf7u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188473

1. Who did you think the Invisibility Cloak was from?

I wasn't sure at the time though by the end of the book I was convinced it was Dumbledore. Presumably because he said so.

2. Filch says that Snape asked him to inform him if anyone was prowling the corridors at night - what did you think of this the first time you read it? Who did you think that Snape might suspect would be out of bed?
I just assumed that it was the normal sort of patrolling I think. Odd but I can't remember my reaction to it though first time round was ten years ago so it's not surprising!

3. Dumbledore says later that he didn't get the idea to use the Mirror of Erised to hide the stone until after Harry's encounter with it- so why was it in the school or in that classroom to begin with? What do you think is the origin of the Mirror?
I just assumed it was something that was hanging around Hogwarts because there was just so much strange stuff around the corner all the time!

4. Harry sees at least ten members of his family in the mirror. Two are his parents, and we can assume that four are his grandparents. Who do you think the remaining four-plus people are, and what happened to them? How could such a large family all die so young in the wizarding world, leaving Harry alone?
Harry knows nothing of his wizarding family at this time - his desire for a large family may simply have manifested itself as such and many of them may not have actually existed. Both sets of grandparents had died prior to 1981 and James was the only child of elderly parents who also died prior to '81. It's possible his family had died of old age (James' parents did just after he left Hogwarts) - I'm sure if James had cousins they would've cropped up at least once.

5. Did you expect Ron to grow up to be Head Boy and Quidditch Captain? Do you think he might have if events had unfolded differently and Voldemort hadn't returned?
No, not really. We didn't see any Quidditch talent until the fifth book and he was distinctly lax about the rules even when he was a Prefect!

6. How did Dumbledore know that Harry had found the mirror and what Harry and Ron had seen in it? What do you think are his ways of becoming invisible without a cloak?
Apparently it is possible to render yourself invisible with a powerful Disillusionment Charm which we learn later in DH Dumbledore is capable of doing.

7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen?
No, I didn't! I couldn't guess what it was he was seeing but in hindsight I expect he saw his family reunited.

8. What would you see if you looked into the Mirror of Erised?
Nothing fancy - I'd be married to a good, kind, handsome man, I'd have an interesting job, stability. Maybe even children.




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Nov 22 03:56:25 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 03:56:25 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP60BD416EBACDE13262BE7AA39F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <heacp9+obg8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188474



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Philip Whitehouse <philipwhiuk at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff said:
> "he is an only child and has been influenced by his parents who  
> brainwash him about pureblood status"
> 
> I think that by the decision on the Tower Draco is no longer a child.  
> In the same way that Harry made adult decisions to 'play the hero',  
> Draco saw that - albeit misguidedly - appeasement of Voldemort's  
> wishes would save his parents. This self-sacrifice is an adult  
> decision so using the 'child' defence is not valid I feel. That said I  
> agree with your other points and conclusion.
> 
> -Philip, who doesn't get much time to post but enjoys reading all the  
> discussion when he has the time!
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Nikkalmati

Even if he was brought up in the pro-LV bigoted society, because he is no longer a child,he must make his own choices.  I can grant him n excuse until he waivers on the Tower.  He has at that point the opportunity to understand a different reality.  Afterwards, he sees the situation at Malfoy manor and he does not like it.  I grant him points for not eagerly identifying HP, HG and RW. But he could have left Hogwarts with the other Slytherins and either gone to the Forest or into hiding.  He chose to stay to attempt to capture HP.  He says he is the one who got himself, Goyle and Crabbe into the ROR.  He is taking positive action to help LV.  I am not sure why you say it was to help his parents.  His father was apparently beaten up badly in the Muggle way after HP escaped from the Manor and LV treats him as an errand boy,  but he and Narcissa do not seem to be in danger.  Draco has thrown his lot in with LV at the end, when it was not necessary. 

I read his not to Harry in the Epilogue as an acknowledgment that he is aware Harry does not hold a grudge and that he knows he owes Harry his life.

Nikkalmati 




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 22 06:07:28 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:07:28 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <heacp9+obg8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <heakf0+333v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188475

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:

> But he could have left Hogwarts with the other Slytherins and 
> either gone to the Forest or into hiding.  He chose to stay to 
> attempt to capture HP.  


zanooda:

I'm pretty sure that the whole idea of trying to capture Harry in the RoR was Crabbe's, not Draco's. At this time Draco is definitely not the leader of the Slytherin trio anymore, and he is reminded about it by Crabbe: "Who cares what you think? I don't take your orders no more, Draco. You an' your dad are finished". I think that maybe Draco tried to discourage Crabbe but without success. He then decided to stay as well to have at least some control over the situation. I must say that I dislike Draco very much, but in this case I just believe that's what happened :-).




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Nov 22 07:42:48 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 07:42:48 -0000
Subject: Platform 9 3/4 /  Hufflepuff / Joining LV / Potters in hiding
In-Reply-To: <hea6qe+io5k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <heaq1o+8u5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188476

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joey" <joeydebs at ...> wrote:

 Joeydebs: 
> I'm in an UK evangelical Christian church and we recently had a dedication - similar to a christening - for five children ranging from a couple of months to two and a half years old. Mostly children are dedicated within the first few months of their lives.
 
> I looked up on the CofE website and they state that baptism can happen at any age. The same is true of the Catholic Church.

Geoff:
Speaking as another UK evangelical who worships in a Baptist church, 
most children (*if* they are presented to God) are, in the CofE or RC 
churches, christened quite early or dedicated in the free churches. I 
think that most churches are prepared to welcome children at an older 
age as you say.

The sad part is that so many families do not follow this today.





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 22 14:42:48 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:42:48 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <he9jse+gvb8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hebil8+n68r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188477

 Geoff:
> I don't think, as Magpie suggests, that "he didn't have the courage to 
> take the next step and declare for the other side". He didn't get the 
> opportunity to do this. On the Tower, he appeared to be about to do 
> that when he was interrupted by the arrival of the Death Eaters. He 
> was then hauled away by Snape and, throughout Deathly Hallows, is 
> hardly in a position to make a move.

Magpie:
I'm not sure how this really disagrees with what I said. Whether one things he had a chance or not to declare for the other side, he winds up, imo, clearly against Voldemort but not actually doing anything for the other side, which would make him neutral, but not good. (And as lots of people probably know if they've read me talking about him before, I love the guy and he's my favorite character!)

But I thought the author was very intentionally keeping him at that level to draw that distinction. If she'd wanted to give him a chance where he could do something clearly for the good side she would have. In the identification scene she takes pains to show Draco's own desires to let the Trio go, but he's unable given his equally strong desire to save his family from Voldemort. He's not his father who is actually eager to get into Voldemort's good graces, he just doesn't want to possibly betray them or get them in even worse trouble. Whether it's the fault of his circumstances or not, that's where he winds up.

Nikki:
> But he could have left Hogwarts with the other Slytherins and
> either gone to the Forest or into hiding. He chose to stay to
> attempt to capture HP.


zanooda:

I'm pretty sure that the whole idea of trying to capture Harry in the RoR was Crabbe's, not Draco's. At this time Draco is definitely not the leader of the Slytherin trio anymore, and he is reminded about it by Crabbe: "Who cares what you think? I don't take your orders no more, Draco. You an' your dad are finished". I think that maybe Draco tried to discourage Crabbe but without success. He then decided to stay as well to have at least some control over the situation. I must say that I dislike Draco very much, but in this case I just believe that's what happened :-).

Magpie:
I agree with zanooda here. Voldemort himself says that Draco didn't join him with the other Slytherins when they left--I don't think leaving Hogwarts with the other Slytherins and hiding was really an option. Staying behind in itself Voldemort views as a sign of disloyalty, which I suspect it was on Draco's part. I think he was trying to hide when the Trio happened to appear in front of them. Crabbe is the one leading the charge into the RoR--Crabbe also already knows how to get into the room. Draco's actions in that scene are not positive ones toward LV, they're all passive actions against Crabbe. The one thing he talks about doing is grabbing the diadem, which would not involve hurting anyone but could appease LV. His parents are quite definitely in danger and have been so for the entire book. That LV is currently treating Lucius like an errand boy doesn't make Lucius safe. Draco's trying to appease LV enough back him off their family (who remember he's been specifically tormenting like a cat playing with a mouse for two books now), and trying to keep people--including those on the good side--from being killed. He's living up to the choice he was making in HBP, where he would have left LV completely and accepted protection on the good side.

-m




From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Nov 22 16:04:50 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:04:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <hebil8+n68r@eGroups.com>
References: <hebil8+n68r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B096122.1030509@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188478

Magpie:
> I'm not sure how this really disagrees with what I said. Whether one things he had a chance or not to declare for the other side, he winds up, imo, clearly against Voldemort but not actually doing anything for the other side,

Bart:
    I suspect you are forgetting that, when Harry was in the hands of 
the Death Eaters barely disguised, and Draco has the opportunity to say, 
"You idiots! You have Harry Potter right in your hands!", instead he 
pretends not to recognize him (albeit in a way that provides plausible 
deniability should Harry's identity be found out).

    Bart



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 22 16:16:32 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:16:32 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <4B096122.1030509@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hebo50+uevs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188479

> Magpie:
> > I'm not sure how this really disagrees with what I said. Whether one things he had a chance or not to declare for the other side, he winds up, imo, clearly against Voldemort but not actually doing anything for the other side,
> 
> Bart:
>     I suspect you are forgetting that, when Harry was in the hands of 
> the Death Eaters barely disguised, and Draco has the opportunity to say, 
> "You idiots! You have Harry Potter right in your hands!", instead he 
> pretends not to recognize him (albeit in a way that provides plausible 
> deniability should Harry's identity be found out).

Magpie:
Why would I be forgetting it? It's exactly the type of thing I was referring to. He rejects the opportunity to identify Harry. But neither does he say, "That's not Harry Potter at all! On your way, three strangers I've never seen!" When his parents press him he says it could be, yeah, it is. He's putting up passive resistance, but doesn't actively step in and save him--and again, we know the circumstances that prevent it, but that's still the way it is.

-m




From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Nov 22 16:30:58 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:30:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <hebo50+uevs@eGroups.com>
References: <hebo50+uevs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B096742.3000008@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188480

Bart:
>>     I suspect you are forgetting that, when Harry was in the hands of 
>> the Death Eaters barely disguised, and Draco has the opportunity to say, 
>> "You idiots! You have Harry Potter right in your hands!", instead he 
>> pretends not to recognize him (albeit in a way that provides plausible 
>> deniability should Harry's identity be found out).
>>     
>
>   
Magpie:
> Why would I be forgetting it? It's exactly the type of thing I was referring to. He rejects the opportunity to identify Harry. But neither does he say, "That's not Harry Potter at all! On your way, three strangers I've never seen!" When his parents press him he says it could be, yeah, it is. He's putting up passive resistance, but doesn't actively step in and save him--and again, we know the circumstances that prevent it, but that's still the way it is.
Bart:
    There's the Slytherin cleverness coming in. If Draco had said that, 
the Trio would have still been kept prisoner, and, if they were found 
out (which was likely), then Draco would have been in major trouble. In 
other words, he did the maximum possible to help out the Trio, and 
managed to keep himself out of trouble at the same time. The thing is 
that he could have been the "hero" from the point of view of the DE's, 
and took a risk to help out the Trio.

    In a way, Draco was a lot like Snape; he enjoyed the attention and 
prestige of being tied to the DE's, but once the evil became a reality 
to him, rather than an abstract concept, he realized he was on the wrong 
side. The major difference was that he didn't have DD to turn to.

    Bart



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 22 17:08:12 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:08:12 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <4B096742.3000008@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hebr5s+5s3h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188481

 
> Magpie:
> > Why would I be forgetting it? It's exactly the type of thing I was referring to. He rejects the opportunity to identify Harry. But neither does he say, "That's not Harry Potter at all! On your way, three strangers I've never seen!" When his parents press him he says it could be, yeah, it is. He's putting up passive resistance, but doesn't actively step in and save him--and again, we know the circumstances that prevent it, but that's still the way it is.


> Bart:
>     There's the Slytherin cleverness coming in. If Draco had said that, 
> the Trio would have still been kept prisoner, and, if they were found 
> out (which was likely), then Draco would have been in major trouble.
In 
> other words, he did the maximum possible to help out the Trio, and 
> managed to keep himself out of trouble at the same time. The thing is 
> that he could have been the "hero" from the point of view of the DE's, 
> and took a risk to help out the Trio.

Magpie:
We don't know at all that they would have been kept prisoner if he'd said that--it's the type of thing Hermione has been known to make work in the past. I'm not saying his doing that would have necessarily worked. But it would obviously have been an active attempt to protect them and set them free. He did not attempt to do the most he could do to help them out, he did the best he could do to not get them in trouble. He even tentatively agreed with his parents that it was them once they insisted. He kept himself out of trouble as best he could but didn't keep the Trio out of much trouble at all. He didn't stop them being identified. I think he genuinely wanted to, but that didn't wind up happening.

-m




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Nov 22 18:03:34 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 22 Nov 2009 18:03:34 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/22/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1258913014.9.61651.m4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188482

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov 22 18:15:27 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:15:27 -0000
Subject: Snape Leg / ChapDisc: Erised, Invisibility, Socks / Manipulative / Weddings
Message-ID: <hebv3v+f58m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188483

Jean Lamb wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188420>:

<< My question is why Snape never went to Madam Pomfrey with the bad leg, and went to Filch for help instead. That always seemed rather odd. >>

So that the readers would assume that the reason he didn't go to Madam Pomfrey was to conceal from Dumbledore that he had tried to pass Fluffy.

Janelle discussed PS/SS Chaper 12 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188447>:

<< 3. (snip) What do you think is the origin of the Mirror [of Erised]? >>

I recall that my husband stating that the Mirror of Erised was a tool used by a wizarding psychotherapist. I once riffed on the name Erised, noting its similar sound to Eris (the Greek goddess of Discord) and 'erased'. 

My husband's wizard also used another tool, a mirror found in fanfic but not canon, that shows a person's deepest fear. I don't recall fanfic giving it a name, but the Mirror of Raef sounds suitably magical. But he would only have needed a captive Boggart for that purpose. 

<< 4. Harry sees at least ten members of his family in the mirror. Two are his parents, and we can assume that four are his grandparents. Who do you think the remaining four-plus people are, and what happened to them? How could such a large family all die so young in the wizarding world, leaving Harry alone? >>

Personally, I believe that the people other than James and Lily (whom the Mirror could have pucked from Harry's buried memories) were fictional people, just painted by the Mirror with features resembling Harry's so he'd think they were relatives. *waves to Potioncat's <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188449>*

If they were pictures of real people, they could have been people from many generations and centuries back, so it would be no surprise that they were already dead. The ones with green eyes like Harry's would have been from Lily's family, therefore probably Muggles. At first I assumed that the statement "The Potters smiled and waved at Harry" referred to all the people in the mirror and I was very annoyed at this error, because at least the people from Lily's side were not Potters. But a listie explained to me that that statement had referred to only James and Lily.

Both pairs of Harry's grandparents died so young simply for authorial convenience, but I agree that it is so unlikely that it should have been made part of the plot. Say, that Death Eaters captured Lily's parents and tortured them to death in the name of making them tell the hiding place of Lily and her baby, or as a way to lure Lily out of hiding to take vengeance. If Petunia knew that wizards had murdered her parents for Lily's sake, that could have turned her personality from very ordinary to the monster we saw.

<< 6. (snip) What do you think are [Dumbledore's] ways of becoming invisible without a cloak? >>

I always thought that his statement that he didn't need a cloak to be invisible meant that he hadn't been using any magic, just being very quiet in the shadows while Harry and Ron were being very unobservant, but I was told that Rowling said he used magic. 

IIRC it was Pippin who pointed out on list that there are enough ways to be invisible that there is an Invisibility Section in the Hogwarts library.

<< 7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen? >>

I always believed that Dumbledore HAD seen himself holding a pair of woolly socks. Not just any woolly socks, but the ugly and uncomfortable ones that his beloved deceased wife or mother had made for him every Christmas, symbolizing that his deepest wish was to be with her still. I could have that theory still, except it was his little sister who made the socks, but Rowling said somewhere that of course he had been lying.

Bart wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188448>:

<< Well, the thing is that here were a series of traps designed to thwart even the most skilled of adult wizards, and three first years just happened to have exactly the right set of skills to get past them. And Dumbledore clearly expected the Trio to get through them; he says as much to Harry. This makes it hard to believe that it was a coincidence. >>

I figured that DD planned the traps AFTER he had noticed with whom Harry was friends. And even so, he noticed wrong: he planned for a Quartet, not a Trio. The Devil's Snare was for Neville, who was good at Herbology. *waves at Potioncat's <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188450>*

Also, some listies have said that it's ridiculous to think that those easy traps were designed to stop a qualified adult wizard. One explanation is they were put there just for Our Heroes. Another is that they were supposed to fake out an adult wizard thief and the real protection was the Mirror of Erised. I think it has been suggested that the Stone was in the Mirror since summer and the Mirror was not behind those traps until DD was ready for Harry to find the Stone.

Marianne wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188470>:

<< Muggle and Wizards weddings. How would weddings be arranged when a muggle marries a wizards. Both parties would want their own wedding >>

If necessary, they could have two big weddings, but I think that usually, if the Muggle wanted a big wedding, they would just have the Muggle big wedding and invite the wizarding side of the family to attend, and go to a lot of effort in advance to dress them in real Muggle style and teach them the cover stories. 

I don't know if even the Muggle parents could be invited to a wizarding big wedding, and certainly not any other Muggles, so they ought to have a Muggle small wedding along with their wizarding big wedding.

<< but how does one explain to the muggles that their son or daughter is marrying a wizard? >>

It seems to me necessary that the Stature of Secrecy either has exceptions written into it or is not enforced with unreasonable strictness. Because it seems to me necessary that a Muggle spouse, the Muggle spouse's parents, and the Muggle spouse's siblings would have to be told about wizards, and probably other close relatives and friends.

I don't think it's possible that the secret could be kept from a Muggle spouse, even if all Muggle in-laws were told that the wizarding spouse was an ordinary Muggle who had been born with psychic powers.

<< Even after the couple has married, how do muggles explain their children's lifestyle. Say what their children do for a living? >>

Some might actually earn their living in the Muggle world and not need a cover story. Also I am sure there are people in the import-export business, buying things in the Muggle world that they sell in the wizarding world, and their cover story would have to include why they buy stuff. 

Tell the family you have a government job in a boring department and whisper to the parents that they must not tell anyone that this job is a cover for being a secret agent. Tell the family that you're a free-lance inventor on contract with a big corporation to whom you send all your inventions. Tell the family you're a poet and recite some ridiculously bad free verse as an example of your work.

<< The children. How about explaing a wizard/witch baby to the muggle relatives. After all younger witches/wizards can't control their magic very well. They can't hide them, can they? >>

That's what Memory Charms are for, right?





From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Sun Nov 22 16:57:16 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:57:16 -0800
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of Erised
Message-ID: <1041C05759654AAAAA5AE24A3F53E2B0@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188484

Discussion Questions:
1. Who did you think the Invisibility Cloak was from?

--It seemed pretty obvious to me that it was from Dumbledore. Hagrid would
have given it to Harry right away if he'd had it. I can't think of any
teacher (even McGonagall) irresponsible enough to give that to an
eleven-year-old kid. 
 
2. Filch says that Snape asked him to inform him if anyone was prowling the
corridors at night- what did you think of this the first time you read it?
Who did you think that Snape might suspect would be out of bed?
 
--My bet's on the twins. I'm surprised that they didn't try to make it
through the challenges myself, actually. However, Snape didn't say just
students, he said anyone, and that would include Quirrell.

3. Dumbledore says later that he didn't get the idea to use the Mirror of
Erised to hide the stone until after Harry's encounter with it- so why was
it in the school or in that classroom to begin with? What do you think is
the origin of the Mirror?
 
--I think that was in the same vault at Gringotts' as the Stone, and Hagrid
took them both (although it would have served the bad guys rights if they'd
taken the Mirror; they could easily have ended up trapped in its allure as
anybody at Hogwarts). I think Flamel knows a great deal about the Mirror,
too. Both would have been perfectly safe if Flamel had kept either one,
unless he and his wife have already been attacked by those looking for it. 

4. Harry sees at least ten members of his family in the mirror. Two are his
parents, and we can assume that four are his grandparents. Who do you think
the remaining four-plus people are, and what happened to them? How could
such a large family all die so young in the wizarding world, leaving Harry
alone?
 
--I think they are all past members of the Potter family, only from the far
past. Harry really longs for a large family like the Weasleys, so I suspect
he didn't actually care or know about any other members as long as his
parents were there as well. One hopes there are some Evans members in there,
of course--but a magical mirror might not show Muggles. 

5. Did you expect Ron to grow up to be Head Boy and Quidditch Captain? Do
you think he might have if events had unfolded differently and Voldemort
hadn't returned?

--No. He would have had to become a bit more like Percy to do so (although
if he'd known about James Potter he might have taken heart)--and he spent
several years watching the twins harass, spy on, and in general make Percy's
life a living hell for daring to be different. Ron quickly learned to go
along, and even once he was Prefect, he made a horrible job of it. Also,
even without Voldemort, Harry would have been there. Without Voldemort,
Harry would still have been a child of the Marauders. Between that and
becoming Seeker so early, the light still would have shone on Harry and not
on Ron. Ron learned early that he and Ginny should do what the twins told
them, unless they wanted to be treated like Percy. And since the twins could
not be named Co-Head-Boy, as far as I know, neither one would have liked to
split up the set. 
 
6. How did Dumbledore know that Harry had found the mirror and what Harry
and Ron had seen in it? What do you think are his ways of becoming invisible
without a cloak?
 
Obviously, there are spells to make one invisible. If Snape could learn to
fly, then Dumbledore could learn spells to Disillusion himself. 

7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in
the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen?
 
--I think he saw Gellert Grindelwald and himself together when they were
young, along with Ariana still alive and his brother still caring for him. 

8. What would you see if you looked into the Mirror of Erised?
 
--My son, no longer schizophrenic. 

9. Just for fun, what do you imagine are some of the ways of getting Draco
expelled that Harry and Ron dreamed up by the Gryffindor fire?
 
--Probably getting caught doing the same stuff that they plan to do <G>. 
 

Jean Lamb

Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?

tlambs1138 at charter.net

excessivelyperky at www.fanfiction.net 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Nov 22 23:22:19 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 23:22:19 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <hebil8+n68r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hech3b+94b8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188485



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sistermagpie at ... wrote:
>
>  Geoff:
> > I don't think, as Magpie suggests, that "he didn't have the courage to 
> > take the next step and declare for the other side". He didn't get the 
> > opportunity to do this. On the Tower, he appeared to be about to do 
> > that when he was interrupted by the arrival of the Death Eaters. He 
> > was then hauled away by Snape and, throughout Deathly Hallows, is 
> > hardly in a position to make a move.
> 
> Magpie:
> I'm not sure how this really disagrees with what I said. Whether one things he had a chance or not to declare for the other side, he winds up, imo, clearly against Voldemort but not actually doing anything for the other side, which would make him neutral, but not good. (And as lots of people probably know if they've read me talking about him before, I love the guy and he's my favorite character!)

Geoff:
Although I agree with you that Draco is an interesting guy and I'm 
more prepared to think about him than Snape, I still disagree 
with your analysis.

He did not get an opportunity then to "declare for the other side" 
and any contacts later were not suitable.

Looking at the Tower situation, I wonder how many of our group 
have, in real life, reaches a point in their lives where something 
which they have always considered to be a given becomes a fork
in the road where they have a choice of ways to go, leading in 
distinctly different directions. It has happened to me on more than 
one occasion, Sometimes the choices are between taking the "good" 
side against the "questionable" side. One of the biggest pivotal points 
in my life was the question of faith. Was I going to accept the claims 
of Christ as real and just or duck out and blunder on. I agree, this
wasn't good against evil but when the choice and its potential to 
change my life became a reality, I had to think through my answer 
and it took a few hours, not the few minutes that Draco had to 
speak to Dumbledore.

Draco has been realising throughout the year that in accepting 
Voldemort's task to kill Dumbledore, he has possibly accepted a 
poisoned chalice and when he realises that the chance is there to 
complete the task, the thoughts must been rushing through his head:
"I've got him; I can kill him." and then when he reaches the Tower and 
disarms Dumbledore, instead of pleading for mercy, the latter puts 
Draco on the back foot by pointing out the danger for himself and his 
family but also suggests that he ought to get on with the job while 
questioning his ability to kill. "Will Voldemort kill my family? Will this 
save them? Why isn't he frightened? I can kill him can't I? Do I want 
protection? What do I do?"

He is at a pivotal point but, in that moment of hesitation and thought, 
he loses the opportunity to "screw his courage to the sticking point" - 
whichever way he is going to jump - and the others arrive. The moment 
has gone. It reminds me in an odd way of the scene in LOTR where 
Gollum seems almost ready to repent when he sees Frodo asleep but 
the moment is lost because Sam blunders in.

Magpie:
> But I thought the author was very intentionally keeping him at that level to draw that distinction. If she'd wanted to give him a chance where he could do something clearly for the good side she would have. In the identification scene she takes pains to show Draco's own desires to let the Trio go, but he's unable given his equally strong desire to save his family from Voldemort. He's not his father who is actually eager to get into Voldemort's good graces, he just doesn't want to possibly betray them or get them in even worse trouble. Whether it's the fault of his circumstances or not, that's where he winds up.

We don't know at all that they would have been kept prisoner if he'd said
that--it's the type of thing Hermione has been known to make work in the past.
I'm not saying his doing that would have necessarily worked. But it would
obviously have been an active attempt to protect them and set them free. He did
not attempt to do the most he could do to help them out, he did the best he
could do to not get them in trouble. He even tentatively agreed with his parents
that it was them once they insisted. 

Geoff:
He only agrees with his parents that maybe it could be Ron and Hermione. At 
no point does he make any sign of recognition of Harry. Also, he is being 
pushed by his father to make a decision but is obviously fearful of Greyback 
and is aware of the fact that Narcissa is anxious that they are completely 
sure.

And again, a pivotal moment is interrupted by the arrival of Bellatrix and 
the decision is again snatched from his hands as she argues and bickers 
with the others about summoning Voldermort.

What would have been the result of declaring support for the "light" side 
in the presence of folk such as Fenrir Greyback or Bellatrix? In this situation, 
I cannot see the idea even crossing his mind. It certainly wouldn't cross mine.
I would be too busy keeping my head down and letting the others argue and 
hoping the discussion wouldn't come back my way. 

OK, call me a wimp but not to my face.
:-)







From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 23 00:15:23 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:15:23 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <hech3b+94b8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <heck6r+h4fb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188486

> Geoff:
> Although I agree with you that Draco is an interesting guy and I'm 
> more prepared to think about him than Snape, I still disagree 
> with your analysis.
> 
> He did not get an opportunity then to "declare for the other side" 
> and any contacts later were not suitable.

Magpie:
Yes. So if he didn't get an opportunity to declare for the other side, he did not declare for the other side. That's exactly what I'm saying. He didn't do it, even if he would have if given the right situation. It doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to him, or don't recognize that in the end he decided in his head/heart that the other side was the right side. Clearly he recognized that Voldemort was not right and so would no longer actively support him. He started to actually make a choice for the right side when he lowered his wand, but he was interrupted, so was not able to do it. Which leaves him having not done it.

I've given my own analysis of the Tower scene plenty of times in the past, and it jibes completely with yours. We don't disagree on where he is in his head or his heart.

> Geoff:
> He only agrees with his parents that maybe it could be Ron and Hermione. At 
> no point does he make any sign of recognition of Harry. Also, he is being 
> pushed by his father to make a decision but is obviously fearful of Greyback 
> and is aware of the fact that Narcissa is anxious that they are completely 
> sure.> 
> And again, a pivotal moment is interrupted by the arrival of Bellatrix and 
> the decision is again snatched from his hands as she argues and bickers 
> with the others about summoning Voldermort.

Magpie:
Which is exactly what I described. Draco clearly doesn't want to identify Harry, but when pressured by his parents he waivers, he agrees that it is, but in as weak a way as possible, and then the moment is lost. He's not able to really do anything to help them, but he did show them that he wanted to help them. So while I think he can be described as wanting the Trio to be unharmed, he can't be described as trying to rescue him. 

Geoff: 
> What would have been the result of declaring support for the "light" side 
> in the presence of folk such as Fenrir Greyback or Bellatrix? In this situation, 
> I cannot see the idea even crossing his mind. It certainly wouldn't cross mine.
> I would be too busy keeping my head down and letting the others argue and 
> hoping the discussion wouldn't come back my way. 

Magpie:
Actually, if we're talking about Draco just saying, "No, that's not Potter. That's that stupid X kid that looks like him" or whatever the idea would be that he would be declaring in a way that the reader and the Trio recognized but would not look like disloyalty to Voldemort to Fenrir or Bellatrix.

But I get it--it could have blown up in his face. He could have been caught and killed. His family could have been killed. (I don't think it's impossible that it crossed his mind to lie since it clearly crossed his mind to try to avoid identifying them at all and to originally lie to say he couldn't tell it was Harry when he could.) Too scary, too much risk, too much danger to his family. So he didn't do it, which is all I'm saying. He turned against LV inside, but due to circumstances and personality, never found himself in a situation where he definitively acted on it in a way that wasn't deniable. He did more clearly make a stand against non-lethal violence, which was a start. He's not Peter Pettigrew. But he was also a very limited ally.

-m




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Nov 23 02:37:22 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:37:22 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <DBD0BC039A1447DFB09B03A85F2BF11A@excessivelypPC>
Message-ID: <hecsh2+m8j1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188488


> Jean: 
> --Ginny Weasley, Gryffindor. She's cheerful, outgoing, (ok, before the
> little problem she had with the diary), and very straightforward. She's also
> ready to use violence instead of words when she's angry with someone, which
> she usually gets away with. Unfortunately, this happens a lot in canon with
> Gryffindors (Marauders, twins, Harry when he slices Draco open, etc.). 

potioncat:
I'm not sure if the violent nature of Gryffindors has been discussed before, good point. Certainly, Gryffindors don't mind taking charge of a situation.
 
>  
> --Luna Lovegood, Ravenclaw. She seeks knowledge anywhere and everywhere, and
> doesn't mind looking silly as long as she's learning something. 

Potioncat:
Luna caught me off guard as far as Ravenclaw wit goes. She does love the written word, but doesn't seem to have much discernment about fact and myth.
>  
> --Cedric Diggory, Hufflepuff. He's a 19th century British recruiting poster
> come to life. Honorable, steadfast, fair-minded, what happened to him was
> very unfair. For once Hufflepuff had a chance to shine, till Barty Crouch
> Jr. had other thoughts.

Potioncat:
So, do you think Hufflepuff is as good a house as Gryffindor, or do you think they are mainly duffers?

 
> 
> Are there any characters who don't live up to their house standards?
> 
> --Draco Malfoy is as subtle as a rock. He refuses to stop, look, and listen
> in a world that is much more dangerous than he thinks it is, (snip)
Potioncat: I really love this

Potioncat:
I love it! You think Draco is in the wrong house, and Alla thinks he exemplifies it. 

Jean: 
>  
(snipping)
>  
> --Percy would have made a splendid Hufflepuff, 
 Ginny (after her
> first year) would have made a really good Slytherin;

 The twins would have turned
> Snape's hair gray if they'd sorted Slytherin, but frankly, that was where
> they belonged. 

Potioncat:
I agree, although I hadn't thought of Ginny in Slytherin before. I do think the twins and Percy would fit there. Percy also seems to fit Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff.


> Jean:
 Remus Lupin might have done better in Slytherin than
> people think--some of them might have thought that a werewolf was way cool,
> not terrible. He would also have done all right in Ravenclaw, since he
> adored books as well.

Potioncat:
Remus? Slytherin? Yes, go on....

Jean:
 Snape would have been less persecuted in Hufflepuff;
, he would have done all right in Ravenclaw, too.

Potioncat:
I think Snape, like Percy fits all four houses, but I agree, he wouldn't have been comfortable in the house of the Marauders.


Jean:

 Both Crabbe and Goyle
> might have done just fine in Hufflepuff--they were quite loyal to Draco till
> the end. 

Potioncat:
I don't know, I never thought they were so much loyal to Draco, as they were using him.







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Nov 23 02:46:14 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:46:14 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <173304.61980.qm@web46207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hect1m+9h9r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188489


Happy Smiley
> Gryffindor: Harry
> Hufflepuff: Cedric 
> Ravenclaw: Luna (Well, who else do we *know* about apart from a bit of Cho?)
> Slytherin: Lucius Malfoy

Potioncat:
Lucius! Of course. I actually hadn't thought of him.

And you brought up a point that I didn't think of when I started the game. We don't know very many Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws; nor do we know any very
 well.> 
> 
> 
Happy Smiley
> >Are there any characters who are sorted appropriately, but you think would have fit in another house just as well?
> 
> Hufflepuff: Harry, Lily, Charlie Weasley
> Ravenclaw: Arthur & Bill Weasley
>
Potioncat:
Except for Harry into Hufflepuff,(Although, I wouldn't put Harry into Hufflepuff. Not sure why.) I hadn't thought of those. Why did you pick these houses for these characters? 
> 





From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Mon Nov 23 02:48:37 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:48:37 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of Erised
Message-ID: <c5c.61d11ef2.383b5205@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188490

In a message dated 11/19/2009 7:00:02 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
 
 
7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding  socks in
the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have  seen?



Melissa:
Count me among the gullible. I completely thought it would be  socks.



8. What would you see if you looked into the Mirror of Erised?

My  1979 Camaro Rally Sport fully restored ;-( . . I loved that  car.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From elfundeb at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 02:56:46 2009
From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:56:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of 
	Erised
In-Reply-To: <he2gfl+ii7l@eGroups.com>
References: <he2gfl+ii7l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <80f25c3a0911221856g6ec33b45mf600f9d8eaa73ec5@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188491

 Ignore my last response (now deleted).  My son asked me a question and I
inadvertently clicked on "send".

>1. Who did you think the Invisibility Cloak was from?

After Dumbledore reveals himself at the Mirror of Erised (if not before), I
was convinced it was from Dumbledore.

>2. Filch says that Snape asked him to inform him if anyone was prowling the
corridors at night- what did you think of this the first time you read it?
Who did you think that Snape might suspect would be out of bed?

I'm sure Snape had his eye on Hary, his new celebrity, although in
retrospect he obviously was on the lookout for Quirrell as well.

>3. Dumbledore says later that he didn't get the idea to use the Mirror of
Erised to hide the stone until after Harry's encounter with it- so why was
it in the school or in that classroom to begin with? What do you think is
the origin of the Mirror?

I expect the Mirror has long been at Hogwarts, and that Dumbledore himself
once spent long hours looking at his family in the mirror.

>4. Harry sees at least ten members of his family in the mirror. Two are his
parents, and we can assume that four are his grandparents. Who do you think
the remaining four-plus people are, and what happened to them? How could
such a large family all die so young in the wizarding world, leaving Harry
alone?

I assumed they were ancestors.

>5. Did you expect Ron to grow up to be Head Boy and Quidditch Captain? Do
you think he might have if events had unfolded differently and Voldemort
hadn't returned?

As Harry's vision could not come true in any literal sense, I did not expect
Ron's to be realized either.  The lesson for Ron to learn was to be himself
instead of believing he had to surpass his brothers to be respected.  He
didn't really internalize this lesson until he destroyed the locket.  If
events had unfolded differently he might not have learned this lesson at
all, and I think Head Boy requires more.  And Harry already owned
the Quidditch Captain job.

>7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in
the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen?

I believed him.  However, once I learned that Hogwarts employed house elves
to do the dirty work, I developed a theory that the image of Dumbledore
holding socks was a metaphor for his desire to bring the outcasts and
underlings of the wizarding world into full participation in the WW and that
someday he would (at least metaphorically) hurl the socks into the Hogwarts
kitchen to free them.
Debbie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Nov 23 03:01:09 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:01:09 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <he52dd+c3hp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hecttl+g070@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188492

 > Alla:
> 
> Oh I love this! So which characters exemplify the values of their houses? See, I am already running in the too many to choose from for Gryffindor 

Potioncat:
Yes, I know what you mean. Not sure if I would pick Harry or Neville if I had to name only one. And there are lots of others to choose from as well. One of the fun things about HP, is that JRK wrote characters who displayed different types of courage. Chivalry is also supposed to be a Gryffindor trait, but many fall short of it.
 
> Alla:
> See, and now it gets bad already. We have a House of Intellectuals, Ravenclaw and whom do we have there? Luna? THAT is the best example JKR could come with?

Potioncat:
We have Cho, but I don't recall if we ever saw her intellectual side.
> 
 
> Alla:
> Hufflepuff? Heck, I guess Cedric counts.

Potioncat:
Yeah, I'd say he'd have to be the cream of the crop, and like Ravenclaw, we don't many to choose from. But let me ask, do you think Hufflepuffs are really duffers?


> Alla:
> Slytherin? Oh, Draco Malfoy, absolutely, sneaky, sleasy, hateful bastard IMO, somebody who considered anybody whose blood is less pure than him to be beneath him and supposedly having ambition to be the best servant for Dark Lord till he saw what that really meant and not having stomach for that. Of course this characterization is how I interpret him, I am not saying that this is the only possible reading or anything.

Potioncat:
I agree with most (not all) of your description of Draco--but I don't get how he exemplifies the house. (I don't have to agree, you're the Sorting Hat for the day.)

> Alla:
> Hm, characters who do not live up to their House standards? Well, Snape I guess if we go per Dumbledore lol.

Potioncat:
Real question, are you joking or serious? I mean, do you think DD meant that Snape was not a true Slytherin? Because I thought he meant Snape could have been a Gryffindor. It was meant as a compliment, I'm sure---but it's sort of like, "You're so good at math, you should have been a boy."


> Alla:
> Pettigrew? But do we know that he was indeed a coward?

Potioncat:
I don't really get Pettigrew. He seems to be a pretty darn accomplished wizard, although McGonagall didn't think so. He was "brave" enough to sneak out of the castle and go on adventures. He really seems to lack loyalty and ambition--and a bit of worth-while courage too.


> Alla:
> I thought I would sort Percy differently, I would definitely put Hermione in Ravenclaw, just because I would love somebody from there to shine. But I understand why she was sorted to Gryffindor.

Potioncat:
Ditto. She would have been an excellent Ravenclaw, but I think she did well in Gryffindor too.

Potioncat, using a different computer and unable to combine responses into one and so had to use 3 posts to cover the topic. Thanks for playing. I'll post my answers later.


>





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 23 04:14:29 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:14:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hect1m+9h9r@eGroups.com>
References: <hect1m+9h9r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <413998.5373.qm@web46207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188493

> 
Happy Smiley
> >Are there any characters who are sorted appropriately, but you think would have fit in another house just as well?
> 
> Hufflepuff: Harry, Lily, Charlie Weasley
> Ravenclaw: Arthur & Bill Weasley
>
>Potioncat:
>Except for Harry into Hufflepuff,( Although, I wouldn't put Harry into Hufflepuff. Not sure why.) 


Joey:

Though I always thought Harry would have been quite fine at Hufflepuff, I think I sort of understand what you mean. :-) 


>Potioncat:
>I hadn't thought of those. Why did you pick these houses for these characters? 


Joey:


1) Lily: I think she was focused on being just when she defended Snape from James and also, vice versa; quite loyal to all her loved ones; patient with Petunia's jealousy and also, Snape's interest in Dark Arts; true to herself and others. I think she must have been serious about her studies if she were made the Head Girl (though I know Slughorn says she was a "natural" at Potions). :-) I guess more or less this is why I feel Harry would do well at Hufflepuff too and I find him *quite* modest. :-)


2) Charlie: I think he handled it quite patiently when Ron wrote to him about Hagrid's pet dragon and when his mom cut his hair (I think a typical Gryffindor would rather resist a forced haircut :-)) and I think working with dragons and other magical creatures demands lot of patience and hard work apart from bravery. :-)


3) Arthur: His interest to learn about concepts / things that are new to him; even in the WW, I think creating a flying car like *that* requires wit and creativity. :-)


4) Bill: I find him emotionally intelligent - the way he has understood goblins' POV and the way he has managed to make friends with some of them; the way he handled Ron when Ron walked out of Harry & Hermione; the way he handled the Trio at Shell Cottage and the advice he gave Harry; his career choice also sounds quite Ravenclaw-ish to me :-)
?

Cheers,
~Joey, who thanks Potioncat for the?lovely game she started and who?is now all set to read Potioncat's response to the game :-)



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Nov 23 05:02:51 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:02:51 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hed51r+m9ub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188494





> > 1. Harry's Astronomy class is mentioned here for the first and last time before the Astronomy OWL in OoP. Why do you think that the class takes place so late despite the rule that no students should be in the corridors after hours? Do you think that all of the first-years have Astronomy together or is this class another attended by Gryffindors only? Do all the Astronomy classes take place at midnight, and, if so, how does Professor Sinistra fit seven (or more) midnight classes into her schedule?


Nikkalmati

 I assume they have Astronomy at night so they can observe the sky. Maybe they are escorted back to the common room. If there is more than one class,  they would have to share telescopes, probably.  Maybe not everyone takes Astronomy after third or fourth year.  Maybe it meets only once a week at night and once or twice in the daytime.

Nikkalmati

> 
> 2. Harry takes five core subjects?Herbology, Potions, Charms, Transfiguration, and Defense Against the Dark Arts, along with History of Magic and Astronomy. What do you think of this set of classes for a group of eleven-year-old novice witches and wizards? Which class (setting aside the instructors since we barely glimpse any of them except Snape) would be your favorite and why?

Nikkalmati
It seems like a comprehensive set of courses.  I am not sure why it never seems to change when they get older.  I would probably like Charms because you could do a wide range of actions with charms.

Nikkalmati

> 
> 3. Why do you think that Quirrell's turban and classroom smell like garlic? Did his blushing and confusion when Seamus asked him about fighting off the zombie arouse your suspicion? What was your initial reaction when Quirrell rescued Harry and Ron from detention with Filch for trying to get through the forbidden door?


Nikkalmati
His turban and classroom smelled like garlic to repell vampires, I assume.  I am still not sure what to think of his rescuing Harry and Ron.  

Nikkalmati 
> 
> 4. Harry's first Potions class is on a Friday, "Double Potions with the Slytherins." Does Potions class meet only once a week for a double period or might there be some other reason for having the first class so late in the week? Why do you think that the Gryffindors have two classes (Potions and the not-yet-scheduled flying lessons) with the Slytherins, one class (Herbology) with the Hufflepuffs, and none with the Ravenclaws?

Nikkalmati

I am not sure.  Maybe it meets only once a week for first years.  Maybe there were other activities scheduled for first years during that first week - orientation?  I am not sure they don't have any double classes with Ravenclaw.  Maybe JKR just did not mention it.

Nikkalmati
> 
> 5. Snape asks Harry where he might find a bezoar, what he would get if he added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, and what the difference is between monkshood and wolfsbane? Why do you think that Snape asked those particular questions? Do you think that he asks the same questions to every class or that he chose them specifically for Harry?

Nikkalmati

These are questions that relate to the story later, which of course is not why Snape would choose them.  I think they are probably simple questions suitable for first years, but not for one raised by Muggles.  I doubt he would ask the same questions every year or the students would all b e prepared for it.

Nikkalmati
> 
> 6. When Snape asks Harry about the bezoar, Harry wonders whether Snape expects him to have memorized every word of "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi." But the Potions text mentioned in "Diagon Alley" is "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is almost certainly the Herbology text. How do you explain this apparent error on JKR's part?

Nikkalmati

Flint?

Nikkalmati
> 
> 7. Just for fun, why do you think that Snape (and, later, Slughorn) is referred to by the old-fashioned title "Potions master" when no other teacher (except the headmaster or headmistress) is called by a similar title? Why not "Potions teacher" for Snape and "Charms master" for Flitwick, for example?

Nikkalmati

Well, it could indicate the availability of an advanced degree in Potions that is not recognized for other subjects;  it could also mean that there is an offical body of some sort that acts like a union of potions teachers.

Nikkalmati
> 
> Thank you Carol>>





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 23 09:15:39 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:15:39 -0000
Subject: Snape Leg / ChapDisc: Erised, Invisibility, Socks / Manipulative / Weddings
In-Reply-To: <hebv3v+f58m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hedjrr+3f2c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188495



---  "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:
...
> 
> << 4. Harry sees at least ten members of his family in the mirror. Two are his parents, and we can assume that four are his grandparents. Who do you think the remaining four-plus people are, and what happened to them? How could such a large family all die so young in the wizarding world, leaving Harry alone? >>
> 
> Personally, I believe that the people other than James and Lily (whom the Mirror could have pucked from Harry's buried memories) were fictional people, just painted by the Mirror with features resembling Harry's so he'd think they were relatives. *waves to Potioncat's <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188449>*
> 
> If they were pictures of real people, they could have been people from many generations and centuries back, so it would be no surprise that they were already dead. ...
> 
> Both pairs of Harry's grandparents died so young simply for authorial convenience, but I agree that it is so unlikely that it should have been made part of the plot. Say, that Death Eaters captured Lily's parents and tortured them to death in the name of making them tell the hiding place of Lily and her baby, or as a way to lure Lily out of hiding to take vengeance. If Petunia knew that wizards had murdered her parents for Lily's sake, that could have turned her personality from very ordinary to the monster we saw.
>

bboyminn:

I think we were not meant to look into this issue as deeply
as we typically do. Sirius said he stayed at James place until
he turned 16, then got a place of his own. That puts him in or
nearly in his last year at Hogwarts, and James' parents are 
still alive. 

However, probably no more than four years later, the Senior Mr.
and Mrs. Potter are dead, so they can't take Harry in. Kind of
a sudden death.

Now Lily's parents might have just been relatively old. They
did have two grown daughters that we know of. If their 
Daughters were in their 20's, then the parents could have been
in their 60's at the latest, and that's old enough to die of 
natural causes.

But, James grandparents and parents, being magical, would 
have had a much longer lifespan. Though I believe that JKR
said that the Senior Potters had James relatively late in 
life. I think that was necessary for them to be dead for the
convenience of the story. 

Still, if we assume everything about wizards life is twice,
or near twice, that of muggles, that would imply female
fertility up to 70 years or older. And that would make the
Senior Potter about 90 or a little more around the time
James and Lily died. But 90, while not young, is not really
old for a wizard. Still, people die at all ages, and I think,
though I'm not sure, that they may have died from some type
of wizard's disease.  

It is hard to make the numbers actually work out, and we know
JKR is no great shakes when it comes to Math. But the
circumstances are not unfathomable, just unusual. 

The other relatives could have been aunts and uncles, but if
the Potters were prone to having small families, they they
may have had to go back a few generations to find other
relatives like aunts and uncles.

While I certainly can't prove it, I'm not sure I buy the 
whole, 'the mirror made it up' idea. I suppose it could be
true, that Harry didn't actually see his family, only a
representation of his family. Still, I think it was real.

That brings up another thought, It is not possible for the 
Senior Potters to have lived more than 4 years after James
left Hogwarts. That makes me wonder if the Senior Potters
attended the Younger Potters wedding. If so, we would 
assume their pictures would be in the book Hagrid gave Harry.

While Harry may not recognize them, it doesn't seem to be
that hard to figure out who they are from the wedding photos.

So, I'm wondering if it wasn't the death of the Senior Potter
that enticed James and Lily to finally tie the knot. James
had just lost the last of his family, and I think he would
have liked the idea of starting a new family with Lily. So,
that could have been the push that prompted them to finally
get married.

So, if the Senior Potters were dead at the time of the wedding,
then they can't have lived more than 2.5 years after James
left Hogwarts. 

Just so you don't have to look it up, James and Lily were age
21 when they died. The left Hogwarts at 17, they died at 21,
Harry is about 1.5 years at the time of their death. 


...

> 
> << 7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen? >>
> 
> I always believed that Dumbledore HAD seen himself holding a pair of woolly socks. ..


bboyminn:

This is a tricky bit of word play here. Harry didn't ask what
Dumbledore saw WHEN he look in the mirror. He ask what
Dumbledore WOULD SEE IF he looked in the mirror.

What you see will change with time and experience. I perfectly
content man, as Dumbledore points out, would only see himself
as he is. Yet, to reach that level of contentment, I would
imagine the same person would see a variety of things at 
different time in his life.

Given how the question is phrased, while it seem clear
Dumbledore is not being totally honest, I don't think we can
quite say he was lying either. I know JKR said it, but again,
those interview answers are always the short version. I suspect
the long version is always much more complex.


> 
> Bart wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188448>:
> 
> << Well, the thing is that here were a series of traps designed to thwart even the most skilled of adult wizards, and three first years just happened to have exactly the right set of skills to get past them. ... >>
> 
> I figured that DD planned the traps AFTER he had noticed with whom Harry was friends. And even so, he noticed wrong: he planned for a Quartet, not a Trio. The Devil's Snare was for Neville, who was good at Herbology. ...
> 
> ...I think it has been suggested that the Stone was in the Mirror since summer and the Mirror was not behind those traps until DD was ready for Harry to find the Stone.
> 

bboyminn:

I've never thought the obstacles in the various chambers 
were specifically made to match the skills of the Trio. It
seems more obvious, that they reflect the talents, logic, and
mindset of the creators of the obstacles, as well as the 
mindset of wizards in general. 

Notice, that none of them were insurmountable. They all were
puzzles that had a solution; the plant, the flying keys,
the chess board, the phials of potions, and the mirror. 

Again, a reasonable and logical person would not have set
riddles with solutions, they would have made insurmountable
roadblocks. But, if we look outside of Harry Potter at 
magical lore in general, this is always how it is done in
old stories of wizards or genies/djinn. It is always a 
solvable puzzle; it is always a riddle. 

Consider the lore of the Sphinx, which is a traditionally a
guardian of tombs and their treasure. All you have to do to 
get past the Sphinx, is answer the Sphinx question. Though
few are logical or smart enough to do this. 

I think more than the obstacles being made for the Trio; using
wizard's logic, they were made to be obstacles that could be
passed, if you were smart enough. It is the great flaw in 
wizard logic, also in the logic of evil geniuses, never just
kill the hero or the intruder, always make it a game or puzzle,
that way the hero can escape and take down the evil genius in
the end. Typical. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn







From margdean56 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 16:43:09 2009
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:43:09 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Leg / ChapDisc: Erised, Invisibility, 
	Socks / Manipulative / Weddings
In-Reply-To: <hedjrr+3f2c@eGroups.com>
References: <hebv3v+f58m@eGroups.com> <hedjrr+3f2c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5e3bb890911230843h56e790bfl561807b608498f2e@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188496

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:15 AM, bboyminn <bboyminn at yahoo.com> wrote:

> bboyminn:
>
> I've never thought the obstacles in the various chambers
> were specifically made to match the skills of the Trio. It
> seems more obvious, that they reflect the talents, logic, and
> mindset of the creators of the obstacles, as well as the
> mindset of wizards in general.
>
> Notice, that none of them were insurmountable. They all were
> puzzles that had a solution; the plant, the flying keys,
> the chess board, the phials of potions, and the mirror.
>
> Again, a reasonable and logical person would not have set
> riddles with solutions, they would have made insurmountable
> roadblocks.

Not necessarily.  They could have set up traps with a definite
solution so that in an emergency one of the staff could get through to
the Stone quickly (to protect it, for instance).


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Nov 23 16:58:55 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:58:55 -0000
Subject: Snape Leg / ChapDisc: Erised, Invisibility, Socks / Manipulative / Weddings
In-Reply-To: <hedjrr+3f2c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <heef0f+a235@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188497


Bboy: 
> Again, a reasonable and logical person would not have set
> riddles with solutions, they would have made insurmountable
> roadblocks. But, if we look outside of Harry Potter at 
> magical lore in general, this is always how it is done in
> old stories of wizards or genies/djinn. It is always a 
> solvable puzzle; it is always a riddle. 

Pippin:
But Dumbledore is reasonably and logically trying to stop an enemy who can't die, and who is able to break through the most powerful protective spells that Dumbledore knows. 

The obstacles do display advanced and powerful magic -- IMO the Trio wouldn't have been able to set them up even as 7th years --  they just don't take powerful or advanced magic to defeat. 

Thus, the theory that they must have been designed so that our first years could get past them. And so they were -- by JKR. But Dumbledore has a different motive.  Dumbledore believes that Voldemort's knowledge and command of magic is greater than his,  so why  play to the enemy's strengths? OTOH, Voldemort is weak on logic, fears the unknown, and tends  to fix on one or another of his goals, to the detriment of the others. As Harry intuits,  "Snape" won't want to go after the Stone until he's discovered in advance how to get past all the obstacles guarding it, and we don't know whether Voldemort ever succeeded in this. Perhaps not.

We do know that Voldemort discovered how to get past Fluffy months before he worked himself up to go after the Stone. We know it caused him a lot of mental effort to make himself do it, which Harry sensed as pain in his scar. Perhaps Voldemort knew that Quirrell was weakening and wouldn't be useful for much longer, so it was now or never.  

We  might also remember that Harry did not quite clear the course. It might not have been as easy to find his way out with the Stone as it was for Ron and Hermione to leave without it.

Pippin





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Nov 23 20:47:55 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:47:55 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <heck6r+h4fb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <heesdr+mkf1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188498

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sistermagpie at ... wrote:

Geoff: 
> > What would have been the result of declaring support for the "light"  
> > side in the presence of folk such as Fenrir Greyback or Bellatrix? In 
> > this situation, I cannot see the idea even crossing his mind. It certainly 
> > wouldn't cross mine. I would be too busy keeping my head down and 
> > letting the others argue and hoping the discussion wouldn't come back 
> > my way. 

Magpie:
> Actually, if we're talking about Draco just saying, "No, that's not Potter. That's that stupid X kid that looks like him" or whatever the idea would be that he would be declaring in a way that the reader and the Trio recognized but would not look like disloyalty to Voldemort to Fenrir or Bellatrix.
> 
> But I get it--it could have blown up in his face. He could have been caught and killed. His family could have been killed. (I don't think it's impossible that it crossed his mind to lie since it clearly crossed his mind to try to avoid identifying them at all and to originally lie to say he couldn't tell it was Harry when he could.) Too scary, too much risk, too much danger to his family. So he didn't do it, which is all I'm saying. He turned against LV inside, but due to circumstances and personality, never found himself in a situation where he definitively acted on it in a way that wasn't deniable. He did more clearly make a stand against non-lethal violence, which was a start. He's not Peter Pettigrew. But he was also a very limited ally.

Geoff:
The point that occurs to me is that being a limited ally would be a very 
real world thing. As I said before, if I were in that situation, I would be 
too busy trying not to be noticed and possibly too darned frightened to 
do anything. which makes both Draco and me either limited allies or 
wimps or both. 

I know that there have been situations in my life where I have had to 
play dumb or even lie to get myself off the hook - admittedly not a hook 
as dangerous as being killed or injured but to avoid embarrassment or 
for the sake of my reputation or, as in this case, to protect someone.

I think that a different response would occur in a scenario where standing 
up against strong opposition when there was a possibility of really saving 
people in danger seemed a viable option. Ron  in the chess game, Harry 
in the Chamber of Secrets or facing Voldemort in the Forest and even 
those students who orchestrated resistance to the Carrows come to mind. 
I think most of us would generally like to live quietly although sometimes 
the need can make unlikely and unwilling heroes of us. 

I think Frodo sums this up quite neatly:
"I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times 
when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words and have felt 
that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons  might be good for them. But 
I don't feel like that now..."
(Tolkien LOTR:FOTR "The Shadow of the Past")

I believe that the instances I gave in the last but one paragraph were those 
of people who felt that their contribution could help towards a distinct 
result. Draco perhaps was trying to keep himself in one piece and also felt 
some need to protect Harry because of his own increasing ambivalence 
towards Voldemort and what he stood for.






From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Mon Nov 23 17:39:37 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:39:37 -0800
Subject: Double Potions
Message-ID: <FD5F5BF92D204DC4AD5D695DE90569BF@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188499

Double Potions is a longer class held less often because it's a _lab_ class.
My husband teaches chemistry, so I know this one! The teacher has to do a
lot of setting up (making sure the right ingredients are out where the
students can get them, with 20% added for wastage, unless you're doing
microchem), lecture, and occasional demonstrations (I suspect Ms. Rowling
had chemistry at a fairly low level a long, long time ago). NEWT level
classes more than likely include analysis of both known and unknown
substances (the final for Advanced Chemistry here is the Grand Unknown. Mike
makes up a plywood board, and the first person to solve the Grand Unknown
gets to pick the center design, while everyone who solves it gets to sign
the board and add little slogans, decency etc. permitting). He also does
demonstrations, holds night labs in the spring so that kids can come in and
catch up on work, and assigns worksheets and teaches kids how to properly
fill out a lab report. It's a class that is a lot more work for a teacher
than say, Charms or History of Magic, where the kids come in with a) wands
at the ready, and/or b) pillows. Given that Potions is a required class for
the first five years, Snape likely has a class load of several hundred
students (assuming numbers given for students at Hogwarts are anywhere near
what have been stated in interviews). My husband starts contemplating the
suicide hot line whenever his load goes over 150 students. Remember, for
each student, the teacher has to maintain a separate file of grades, read
essays, grade essays, look at lab reports, try to interpret the handwriting,
try to guess who is copying from who (though with the Trio, and with Draco &
the Goons, I suspect that was not really hard), give tests, grade tests
(with no computerized assistance), assist parents with any inquiries, and
since it's a boarding school, write end of year letters to parents. In
Potions, one has to calculate the ingredients required for each and every
Potion for each and every class, add whatever percentage seems right, be
ready to call the Fire Department or put down some major spells even when
kids _aren't_ trying to set the place on fire to steal stuff out of the
cabinet, breathe in all the fumes (one suspect Snape's liver looks like a
toxic waste dump) of everyone's mistakes, and be head of Slytherin in the
bargain (with the usual quota of pregnant students, gambling students,
drinking students, students caught stealing, students who are suicidal,
students who are homicidal, and that's without adding who's working for the
Dark Lord for Daddy's sake). And oh, yes, let's add magic into the equation
here; students are fully capable of making their own potions on the sly, and
some may well end up addicted to them. 
 
Just a look at what a teacher's workload really is, especially at a boarding
school where they can't go home and scream at the stupidity of Manchester
United to let off steam. 

Jean Lamb

Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?

tlambs1138 at charter.net

excessiveperky at LJ

 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 23 21:44:20 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:44:20 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <heesdr+mkf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <heevnk+7o03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188500

 Geoff:
> The point that occurs to me is that being a limited ally would be a very 
> real world thing. As I said before, if I were in that situation, I would be 
> too busy trying not to be noticed and possibly too darned frightened to 
> do anything. which makes both Draco and me either limited allies or 
> wimps or both. 
> 
> I know that there have been situations in my life where I have had to 
> play dumb or even lie to get myself off the hook - admittedly not a hook 
> as dangerous as being killed or injured but to avoid embarrassment or 
> for the sake of my reputation or, as in this case, to protect someone.

Magpie:
Me too. And if we were talking about the real world, I don't think I'd be looking at it the same way. But in understanding this text, I think there's *a lot* of importance put on courage. Even to the point where a common flaw of the heroes is too much courage (which in itself is not necessarily a good thing, but is definitely very forgiveable and far better than too little). So when I'm talking about the characters in this book, I feel in reading it that Draco is absolutely placed squarely in a lower place than most other characters who aren't villains. 

In a series so concerned with courage, where the author considers courage to be necessary for all other virtues, I can't help but see something significant in a character who never gets a chance to show that he has the courage to act on his convictions (or possibly even quite figure out what those convictions are). He's not Peter whose cowardice drives him to actively commit evil. And I think we see that Draco shares the other not-evil Slytherins path to redemption--that is, he *can* be courageous when he's motivated by love. I would say we saw this in HBP. He showed courage there in trying to protect his family, and also correct morality when he drew the line at being able to murder an innocent man for Voldemort just for his own survival. He shows himself even closer to goodness when the fire breaks out, imo. Crabbe runs out to save himself. Draco tries to drag out the unconscious body of Goyle, even though he's not motivated by love of Goyle (who along with Crabbe seems to have proved himself to be not a good friend to him). But he tries to save him because he's a human being who he doesn't want to see die in a fire. 

The only reason I don't see this as a truly redemptive moment for Draco is that it doesn't seem to be written as such. It seems glossed over as a prelude to Harry's far more dramatic rescue of Draco as his enemy, and is then followed by Ron punching Draco in the face for claiming to be on the DE's side to save himself--which I can't help but take as saying something about what the author thinks about the kind of thing we're talking about here. I found Draco's protestations to the DE funny--why on earth shouldn't he try to save himself with his wits there? But Ron thinks it's pathetic, especially after they saved his life. And yes, Ron is in no way the author's mouthpiece, but since I don't see anything in the text that disagrees with Ron's view here, and I've no doubt that most any other student or creature we might have seen in that situation who was nominally anti-Voldemort, would have never stooped to it. (Unless to also be shown as low--like Zach Smith.)

So based on the "rules" I sort of get from the books, I'd say Draco's more in the "he's not evil, and has the potential for goodness" category rather than the "he's one of the great and good" category. I feel--and this is just a feeling so don't take it as a canonically based fact--that the author wants him in exactly that place.

-m




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Nov 23 23:04:18 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:04:18 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <heevnk+7o03@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hef4di+ptqg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188501

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sistermagpie at ... wrote:

Magpie:

> So based on the "rules" I sort of get from the books, I'd say Draco's more in the "he's not evil, and has the potential for goodness" category rather than the "he's one of the great and good" category. I feel--and this is just a feeling so don't take it as a canonically based fact--that the author wants him in exactly that place.

Geoff:
Which, curiously, makes me lean more towards him. Mark you, it 
depends who the "great and the good" are. I'm not even sure I'd 
place Harry in that category; at least he appears to know and 
accept that. In the case of some folk, like Dumbledore, the 
revelation of feet of clay makes me want to look askance at 
almost everyone.
:-(




From philipwhiuk at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 23 23:17:08 2009
From: philipwhiuk at hotmail.com (Philip Whitehouse)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:17:08 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <hef4di+ptqg@eGroups.com>
References: <hef4di+ptqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP70379869397797F30375F5A39E0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 188502


Geoff wrote:
> I'm not even sure I'd
> place Harry in that category; at least he appears to know and
> accept that. In the case of some folk, like Dumbledore, the
> revelation of feet of clay makes me want to look askance at
> almost everyone.
>

Isn't this what makes the series better though? Perfect people don't  
exist so it's simplistic fiction which inudes such people. Reasoning  
behind Voldemort's actions and imperfect decisions by HP and DD are  
what gives the stories depth. Without this our discussions would be  
limited.

Philip



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Nov 24 02:54:17 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 02:54:17 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <he0q9d+sv8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hefhsp+627t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188503


> Potioncat, answering the questions I asked earlier

> Which characters do you think exemplify the attributes of their houses? There can be multiple if you think there are several, but choose one main representative from each house.

Gryffindor: Harry Potter
Hufflepuff: Cedric Diggory
Ravenclaw: Professor Flitwick
Slytherin: Severus Snape (close 2nd Regulus Black)

> 
> Are there any characters who don't live up to their house standards?

Zacharias Smith--rushing out with the first years showed a distinct lack of loyalty.

> 
> Dumbledore thinks they sort too soon. Are there any characters you would sort differently than the Sorting Hat did?

I would have sorted Pettigrew into Durmstrang.

> 
> Are there any characters who are sorted appropriately, but you think would have fit in another house just as well?

I've answered this in a different post.
> 
> Do you think being in a different house would have made a difference in a character's life?

I think it would--in some cases it would be less signficant than others. But I think Snape could have done well in both Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff and might have turned out nicer. He wouldn't have been as encouraged in the Dark Arts, I think.





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 24 07:57:04 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:57:04 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <hef4di+ptqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <heg3kg+1354@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188504



---  "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  sistermagpie@ wrote:
> 
> Magpie:
> 
> > So based on the "rules" I sort of get from the books, I'd say Draco's more in the "he's not evil, and has the potential for goodness" category rather than the "he's one of the great and good" category. I feel--and this is just a feeling so don't take it as a canonically based fact--that the author wants him in exactly that place.
> 
> Geoff:
> Which, curiously, makes me lean more towards him. Mark you, it 
> depends who the "great and the good" are. I'm not even sure I'd 
> place Harry in that category; at least he appears to know and 
> accept that. In the case of some folk, like Dumbledore, the 
> revelation of feet of clay makes me want to look askance at 
> almost everyone.
> :-(
>

bboyminn:

There is no denying that Draco is a nasty rat of a bully, 
filled with arrogance and self-importance, not to mention
a sense of privilege that always come with growing up in
extreme wealth. 

But to use the slightly obnoxious Nazi analogy, it is easy
to sit in England sipping tea and hating Hitler. But it is
quite another thing to be the guy who serves Hitler his tea
everyday in his bunker. If you are thrust into that situation,
you're not really in a position to be criticizing Hitler, at 
least not if you expect to survive the war. 

True Draco made some stunningly bad choices; positively
misguided, illogical, irrational, and stupid. But, I don't 
think we can deny that he grew up somewhat isolated from 
life harsh realities, and in the house of a hard core
bigot, Dumbledore hater, and dark arts supporter.

It is extremely hard for a young kid moving into his teens
to divorce himself from the rhetoric he has grown up with.
How many Catholics become Jews? Not very many. Its the same
with Draco, the role he is playing is the role he has assumed
was right from the time he was an infant.

But once he moves into his teen years and starts to get an
understanding of the real world, the old family rhetoric
doesn't hold up so well. 

Then he is thrust into a situation where he must prove himself
to Voldemort, and to save his family. If he succeeds, he and
they live, if he fails, then they don't. Once that sinks in,
he realize that being a Death Eater is more than sitting
around the mansion getting drunk and complaining about 
muggles. 

Once the harsh reality of being a Death Eater set in, it is
too late. Once the moment of Dumbledore's offer of protection
passes, what can Draco do, what are his options? Voldemort
is living in his house, and it become crystal clear that
Voldemort is ruthless, evil, and deadly. That's not exactly
the time to take a stand against him. 

But I think we see enough to know that if Draco had his way,
he would divorce himself from the whole mess. He would just
walk away. But as we all know, once you are in, it is a 
lifetime of service or DEATH. I'm sure neither of those look
all that appealing to Draco. But again, what can he do? 

Far better wizards than him fall before Voldemort before they
even have a chance to marshal a defense. His killing is so
arbitrary, that you could be killed simply because Voldemort
is in a bad mood. 

So, I think within the limits of his ability, and the fact 
that he is living with Voldemort, Draco tries his best to 
stay out of it. To stay in the background as Geoff suggests.
But again, when you are in the same room with Voldemort with
only a few other people, there just isn't much background to 
hide in. 

So, when the Trio are caught he does his best to be non-
committal. He give the most basic information, just enough to
keep himself alive. 

Sure, he could stand on the table, claim allegiance to 
Dumbledore, and blow a big raspberry at Voldemort. But that
would be throwing his life away to no good end. 

As long as he stays alive, another opportunity might come
along to find a way out of the mess he is in. But given how
close he is to Voldemort, those opportunities are going to 
be few and far between. 

Someone else suggested that maybe when Draco, Crabbe, and
Goyle stayed in Hogwarts, Draco's goal may not have been to 
stay and fight for Voldemort on the inside, but to do his 
best to stay out of the fight altogether. The extension of
this is that he was in the Room of Requirement, not leading,
but following Crabbe and Goyle, and trying to restrain them. 

Still, he is not fighting them, so I think he is still just
trying to step out of the whole mess. He doesn't want to 
fight for Voldemort or against him, he just wants out.

Sadly though, that is not how war works.

I'm about to reread the ROR scene again, it will be interesting
with this new perspective to see if I see Draco's actions in
a different light. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 24 08:06:32 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:06:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hefhsp+627t@eGroups.com>
References: <hefhsp+627t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <693192.57890.qm@web46214.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188505

> Potioncat, answering the questions I asked earlier
> Which characters do you think exemplify the attributes of their houses? There can be multiple if you think there are several, but choose one main representative from each house.
>Slytherin: Severus Snape (close 2nd Regulus Black)


I think Snape can be a *role model* for Slytherins to show how their cunning and ambition should be used for good causes but I don't think he *exemplifies*?Slytherin. 


Sorting Hat says:


"Those cunning folks use any means to achieve their ends."


"And power-hungry Slytherin loved those of great ambition."


"Slytherin took only pure-blood wizards of great cunning just like him"


While the word "cunning" generally implies a negative trait, I guess it also means shrewdness / astuteness. So, these traits fit Snape seeing how he handled LV to achieve his goal; he was quite ambitious when he was young, yes; of course, he is a pure blood. 


Yet Phineas Nigellus also said, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, when given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." and I think *that* does not suit Snape. 


JMO. :-)

Cheers,
~Joey :-)


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kersberg at chello.nl  Tue Nov 24 11:16:45 2009
From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:16:45 -0000
Subject: the HEXfilesATNet
Message-ID: <hegfat+7io8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188506

Can any of the Draco-Harry shippers among us give me any idea what happened to the fanfic site TheHexFiles?
It used to be the best source for me for Harry-Draco stories, but since yesterday I cannot get to the site anymore and get a message: "Account Suspended".
Is this a temporary glitch or has the site gone up in thin air?





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Nov 24 12:25:45 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:25:45 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <693192.57890.qm@web46214.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hegjca+tmu2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188507

 Happy Smiley 
> 
> I think Snape can be a *role model* for Slytherins to show how their cunning and ambition should be used for good causes but I don't think he *exemplifies*?Slytherin. 
> 

snip
he was quite ambitious when he was young, yes; of course, he is a pure blood. 
> 
> 
> Yet Phineas Nigellus also said, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, when given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." and I think *that* does not suit Snape. 
 
Potioncat:
Do you think he wasn't ambitious when he was older? I think his ambition took a turn in a different direction. He acted like a Pure-blood, but remember, his father was a Muggle.

For my purposes in this exercise, I was only using the Sorting Hat's descriptions of the houses. We get quite a few different views from the various characters. Young Snape, for exeample says Gryffindor is brawny while Slytherin is brainy. 

I'd to hear what others have to say about Phineas Nugellus's little speech to Harry. His comments were made with a specific outcome in mind. It seems to me that anyone, given a choice, would rather live than die, but sometimes there is no choice. Like when Harry didn't want to face the troll, but he felt he had no choice. Well, yes, he did--but not in his own mind. 




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Nov 24 15:36:07 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:36:07 -0000
Subject: Apologia pro Draco (was Re: Wizarding Top Ten)
In-Reply-To: <heg3kg+1354@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <heguh7+tmvo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188508



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> ---  "Geoff" <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >
> > ---  sistermagpie@ wrote:
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > 
> > > So based on the "rules" I sort of get from the books, I'd say Draco's more in the "he's not evil, and has the potential for goodness" category rather than the "he's one of the great and good" category. I feel--and this is just a feeling so don't take it as a canonically based fact--that the author wants him in exactly that place.
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > Which, curiously, makes me lean more towards him. Mark you, it 
> > depends who the "great and the good" are. I'm not even sure I'd 
> > place Harry in that category; at least he appears to know and 
> > accept that. In the case of some folk, like Dumbledore, the 
> > revelation of feet of clay makes me want to look askance at 
> > almost everyone.
> > :-(
> >
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> There is no denying that Draco is a nasty rat of a bully, 
> filled with arrogance and self-importance, not to mention
> a sense of privilege that always come with growing up in
> extreme wealth. 

<large snip!>

Geoff:
Steve, that was a brilliant summary of what I've been trying to 
get over in this thread.

Thanks.

The point I have also been trying to emphasis is that, drawing on 
32 years experience of teaching teenagers and 35 years of 
working in church boys clubs is that (1) kids can indeed be 
nasty rats because they've been given the wrong role models 
in their family and (2) they *can* change. I still meet some of 
these guys who are now grown up and completely changed in 
their outlook on life.

I still hope that in the years between Voldemort's fall and the 
epilogue, Draco did.

There is a lot of fanfic about this and I must admit that I often 
wonder how he rehabilitated himself in the eyes in the eyes of 
"the great and the good",
:-)






From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 24 18:23:30 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:23:30 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hegjca+tmu2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <heh8b2+q0ei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188509

> > Happy Smiley :
> > Yet Phineas Nigellus also said, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, when given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." and I think *that* does not suit Snape. 
>  
> Potioncat:
> I'd to hear what others have to say about Phineas Nugellus's little speech to Harry. His comments were made with a specific outcome in mind. It seems to me that anyone, given a choice, would rather live than die, but sometimes there is no choice. Like when Harry didn't want to face the troll, but he felt he had no choice. Well, yes, he did--but not in his own mind.

Zara:
I like what you say about Harry and "no choice". I feel several of the Slytherin characters are shown to exemplify that same sort of thinking, and thus Phineas Nigellus's little line is at best misleading. 

In addition to Snape, certainly the most prominent example of this, several other Slytherins are shown to have acted in ways that placed them in jeopardy. Regulus Black, when he went after the locket and drank the green goo himself. Draco, who persisted in dragging Goyle along in the Fiendfyre scene, even when it seemed this would leave him trapped. Slughorn, who returned to Hogwarts for the final battle.

In fact, the only Slytherin I can think of who seems to have acted according to Phineas's little saying was Pansy Parkinson. And even in her case, this could be as much about her dislike of Harry as about saving her own skin.




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 25 10:55:34 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 02:55:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <heh8b2+q0ei@eGroups.com>
References: <heh8b2+q0ei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <552021.63674.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188510

> > Happy Smiley :
> > Yet Phineas Nigellus also said, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, when given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." and I think *that* does not suit Snape. 


> 
> Potioncat:
> I'd to hear what others have to say about Phineas Nugellus's little speech to Harry. His comments were made with a specific outcome in mind. It seems to me that anyone, given a choice, would rather live than die, but sometimes there is no choice. Like when Harry didn't want to face the troll, but he felt he had no choice. Well, yes, he did--but not in his own mind.


>Zara:
>I like what you say about Harry and "no choice". I feel several of the Slytherin characters are shown to exemplify that same sort of thinking, and thus Phineas Nigellus's little line is at best misleading. 


>In addition to Snape, certainly the most prominent example of this, several other Slytherins are shown to have acted in ways that placed them in jeopardy. Regulus Black, when he went after the locket and drank the green goo himself. Draco, who persisted in dragging Goyle along in the Fiendfyre scene, even when it seemed this would leave him trapped. Slughorn, who returned to Hogwarts for the final battle.


>In fact, the only Slytherin I can think of who seems to have acted according to Phineas's little saying was Pansy Parkinson. And even in her case, this could be as much about her dislike of Harry as about saving her own skin.

Joey:


Well, I agree with you about Regulus, Draco and Slughorn but they seem to be exceptions because didn't the entire lot of Slytherins leave the scene soon after Pansy's suggestion to handover Harry to Voldy? That does seem to match what?Phineas says.
?
Cheers,
~Joey :-) 



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Nov 25 12:45:51 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:45:51 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <552021.63674.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hej8tv+fpcv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188511

 
> Joey:

> Well, I agree with you about Regulus, Draco and Slughorn but they seem to be exceptions because didn't the entire lot of Slytherins leave the scene soon after Pansy's suggestion to handover Harry to Voldy? That does seem to match what?Phineas says.


Potioncat:
They really didn't have much choice, McGonagall ordered them out.  We know 3 stayed behind for their own reasons, some went to LV. Most were under age and were leaving just like all the other underage students. We don't know if any current Slytherin student came back with Slughorn.

I suppose someone could have stood up and said, "No, I want to stay and fight for Hogwarts."  It wasn't only their lives they had to choose about, but their family's as well. The majority of Slytherin students like Draco and Luna's father were all in the same boat--LV had their family under his control. So any figthing against LV had to be done carefully.

(I've thrown Luna's father in because we know he was behind Harry, but once Luna's life was at risk, he did what he thought best for her.) 







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 25 12:53:28 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:53:28 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hej8tv+fpcv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hej9c8+k6kk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188512

 
> > Joey:
> 
> > Well, I agree with you about Regulus, Draco and Slughorn but they seem to be exceptions because didn't the entire lot of Slytherins leave the scene soon after Pansy's suggestion to handover Harry to Voldy? That does seem to match what?Phineas says.
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> They really didn't have much choice, McGonagall ordered them out.  We know 3 stayed behind for their own reasons, some went to LV. Most were under age and were leaving just like all the other underage students. We don't know if any current Slytherin student came back with Slughorn.
> 
> I suppose someone could have stood up and said, "No, I want to stay and fight for Hogwarts."  <SNIP>

Alla:

I disagree, I think their choice should have been exercised **before** McGonagall threw them out. At least shut up and sit down Pantsy, you little DE would have been enough for me.

Instead I believe they pointed their wands at Harry (I know, I know many people disagree with me, but my interpretation that they stood up earlier and Harry sees that)




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 25 15:00:22 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:00:22 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <heh8b2+q0ei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hejgq6+16b6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188513

Zara:
<SNIP>
In fact, the only Slytherin I can think of who seems to have acted according to
Phineas's little saying was Pansy Parkinson. And even in her case, this could be
as much about her dislike of Harry as about saving her own skin.



Alla:

But even if you disagree with me that the other Slytherins stood up by Pansy to threaten Harry, it still seems to me that what they did here is a perfect illustration to Phineus' little speech. 

Here it seems to me the Slytherins students have the opportunity to do what Harry and Ron did in book 1, to save the person they did not like.

Yeah, it requires thinking about other person's life **before** your own, and yes Harry does not have friends among Slytherins, but that to me is the whole point.

They know that giving Harry to Voldemort means his death, are they saying anything to Pansy?

I do not know, to me as I said, all of this is a perfect illustration of Slytherins as a whole thinking about themselves first and foremost.

I think this was a moment of truth for Slytherins as a whole, I think they failed spectacularly in that. Yes, I know Snape and Regulus and Slughorn were brave and Slytherin students still did not say anything against giving up Harry to Voldemort.

And yes, they wanted to save their lives, but again to me this is the whole point and all goes back to arguing that Slytherins never did what Harry and Ron did, even when giving the opportunity. IMO of course.   And sure, yes it could be about Pansy saving her skin first and foremost, which is exactly my point, I just think that her brethren were concerned with that too.


JMO,

Alla







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Nov 25 16:26:59 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:26:59 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hej9c8+k6kk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hejlsj+s0v2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188514


> Alla:
> 
> I disagree, I think their choice should have been exercised **before** McGonagall threw them out. At least shut up and sit down Pantsy, you little DE would have been enough for me.
> 
> Instead I believe they pointed their wands at Harry (I know, I know many people disagree with me, but my interpretation that they stood up earlier and Harry sees that)

Pippin:
Earlier? But that would have to be before they knew what Pansy was going to say. Are they all seers, then? 

It seems to me the Slytherins would be sitting there in stunned silence, trying to take it in, while Harry's friends, who already knew that Harry was there, are naturally quicker to react. They point their wands at the Slytherins, all of them, without distinction, including  ickle firsties who couldn't do much more than shoot sparks at them. And that alone tells me this is not an action we are supposed to approve. It's Voldemort who threatens harmless people because they are in his way.

Of course Harry doesn't see that his friends are pointing their wands at little kids. He sees a mass of threatening people when in fact there's only one. And that's the point. If you let it, the stereotype will override the facts even when they're staring right at you.

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 25 17:14:52 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:14:52 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hejlsj+s0v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hejomc+ermf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188515


> > Alla:
> > 
> > I disagree, I think their choice should have been exercised **before** McGonagall threw them out. At least shut up and sit down Pantsy, you little DE would have been enough for me.
> > 
> > Instead I believe they pointed their wands at Harry (I know, I know many people disagree with me, but my interpretation that they stood up earlier and Harry sees that)
> 
> Pippin:
> Earlier? But that would have to be before they knew what Pansy was going to say. Are they all seers, then? 

Alla:

No, that would be the very second after Pansy suggested to give up their classmate to the leader of murderers and torturers against whom Hogwarts is preparing to defend themselves.


Pippin:
> It seems to me the Slytherins would be sitting there in stunned silence, trying to take it in, while Harry's friends, who already knew that Harry was there, are naturally quicker to react. They point their wands at the Slytherins, all of them, without distinction, including  ickle firsties who couldn't do much more than shoot sparks at them. And that alone tells me this is not an action we are supposed to approve. It's Voldemort who threatens harmless people because they are in his way.
> 
> Of course Harry doesn't see that his friends are pointing their wands at little kids. He sees a mass of threatening people when in fact there's only one. And that's the point. If you let it, the stereotype will override the facts even when they're staring right at you.


Alla:

I take an exception to this sentence of yours:

"He sees a mass of threatening people when in fact there's only one."

Alla:

To me it is not a fact, far from it, just your interpretation and not mine.  I read Slytherins as already got up and standing behind Pansy ready to support her. I think it is a very legit threat at this point.






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 25 19:35:41 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:35:41 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hejomc+ermf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hek0ud+5cap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188516

> > Pippin:
> > Earlier? But that would have to be before they knew what Pansy was going to say. Are they all seers, then? 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, that would be the very second after Pansy suggested to give up their classmate to the leader of murderers and torturers against whom Hogwarts is preparing to defend themselves.

Magpie:
Basically, it seems to me, you're just asking them to do exactly what the other students did, right? The other three houses, iirc, get up all on their own, showing that if anybody wants to give Harry over, they'll have to go throught them. Any Slytherin student could have done the same thing--even if they didn't like Harry. 

-m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 25 20:04:07 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:04:07 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hek0ud+5cap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hek2jn+40vc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188517


> Magpie:
> Basically, it seems to me, you're just asking them to do exactly what the other students did, right? The other three houses, iirc, get up all on their own, showing that if anybody wants to give Harry over, they'll have to go throught them. Any Slytherin student could have done the same thing--even if they didn't like Harry. 


Alla:

Absolutely! And I am sure we can come up with millions of very valid reasons why they did not do so, but here I just want to  say basically what you seem to be saying on the Draco's thread if I understood  you correctly. I totally totally understand  why Slytherins would be worried for their lives, for their families and would not do that, but in the book that seems to place courage extremely high, it seems to me that yeah, it was done for a reason.

And no, I was not asking them to do so because Harry was their friend OR Harry was theirs, quite the contrary. 


JMO,

Alla.




From njeridamalicampbell at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 26 03:16:17 2009
From: njeridamalicampbell at hotmail.com (njeri)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:16:17 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 13, Nicolas Flamel
Message-ID: <hekru1+5h49@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188518

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist (to email inboxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space)


CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone,
Chapter Thirteen, Nicolas Flamel


The Christmas holidays have ended, and classes are back in session at Hogwarts.  Harry cannot forget what he'd seen in the mirror of Erised, and has been having recurring nightmares as a result.
The Gryffindor Quidditch team gears up for what turns out  to be a very important one exciting game. If Gryffindor wins the match, they would advance ahead of Slytherin in the house championship. To the team's surprise, Snape is refereeing the Gryffindor/Hufflepuff match.
Neville is bullied by Malfoy who binds his legs together using the Leg-Locker curse. After casting the counter-curse, Hermione encourages Neville to stand up to Malfoy.  In empathy, Harry gives Neville his last Chocolate Frog. Neville gives the Chocolate Frog trading card to Harry, who collects them. The inscription on the Dumbledore card states that Nicholas Flamel is the maker of the Philosopher's Stone! With this discovery, the friends are one step closer to their goal.
Harry cannot seem to avoid Snape in the days leading up to the match. He wonders if Snape is following him. The Quidditch game draws a large crowd, including Dumbledore. Harry captures the Golden Snitch in less than 5 minutes, and Gryffindor wins the match.  After the game, Harry notices a hooded Snape headed into the forest. He follows on his broomstick to see Snape engaged in a tense conversation with Quirrell. From the snippet of conversation he overheard, Harry understands that Severus is waiting for Quirrel to develop magic that will allow someone to get past Hagrid's beast.
Harry returns to Gryffindor quarters where a victory party is taking place. He hurries Ron and Hermione into a room where he tells them everything he learned on this recent adventure. There must be other things guarding the Philosopher's stone
 With Quirrell being the only obstacle between Snape and the Philosopher's stone, is there any hope?

Questions:
1.    Reflect on the role of dreams in Harry's maturation as a wizard. How have they helped and/or hindered his development?
2.    Why did Snape referee the Quidditch game? And why might he have seemed angrier than usual before the match?
3.    Why is Hermione's advice to Neville (to confront Malfoy), and Neville's subsequent action critical to the HP series?
4.    Speculate as to whether there may be numerological significance to Nicolas and Perenelle's ages (665 & 658, respectively).  [Interesting: Perennial, Continuing without cessation or intermission; perpetual; unceasing; never failing. [1913 Webster]
5.    In the forest, Snape says to Quirrell: "You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell." What did you make of this statement on your first read? Given what we know of Snape, has the significance of this statement changed?
6. Please feel free to add your own question here.

Best regards,
Njeri


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 14, Norbert The Norwedgian Ridgeback, on December 2, 2009.

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please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 26 04:22:39 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:22:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hek2jn+40vc@eGroups.com>
References: <hek2jn+40vc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <853287.66037.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188520

> > Joey:
> 
> > Well, I agree with you about Regulus, Draco and Slughorn but they seem to be exceptions because didn't the entire lot of Slytherins leave the scene soon after Pansy's suggestion to handover Harry to Voldy? That does seem to match what Phineas says.

?
> Potioncat:
> They really didn't have much choice, McGonagall ordered them out. We know 3 stayed behind for their own reasons, some went to LV. Most were under age and were leaving just like all the other underage students. We don't know if any current Slytherin student came back with Slughorn.
> 
> I suppose someone could have stood up and said, "No, I want to stay and fight for Hogwarts." <SNIP>


>Alla:
I disagree, I think their choice should have been exercised **before** McGonagall threw them out.
<SNIP>


>Zara:
<SNIP>
In fact, the only Slytherin I can think of who seems to have acted according to
Phineas's little saying was Pansy Parkinson. And even in her case, this could be
as much about her dislike of Harry as about saving her own skin.


>Alla:
Here it seems to me the Slytherins students have the opportunity to do what Harry and Ron did in book 1, to save the person they did not like.


Yeah, it requires thinking about other person's life **before** your own, and yes Harry does not have friends among Slytherins, but that to me is the whole point.


> 
> Pippin:
> Earlier? But that would have to be before they knew what Pansy was going to say. Are they all seers, then? 
<SNIP>


>Alla:
No, that would be the very second after Pansy suggested to give up their classmate to the leader of murderers and torturers against whom Hogwarts is preparing to defend themselves.
<SNIP>


Joey:


I agree with Alla's points though there is a slight difference in the way I look at it, I suppose. I think it is natural for a typical human being to think of himself / herself before others and I don't expect Slytherins to be self-sacrificing in nature. Yet I do think that their attitude and behaviour fade in comparison to what students of other houses did in similar circumstances.?I could not help admiring what the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs did in that scene - they could have agreed with Pansy and / or left along with the Slytherins but they didn't. Also, Pansy's suggestion?does sound horrible to me - she could have just?chosen not to fight and left the place but suggesting to handover Harry to Voldemort sounds gruesome to me.?

?Cheers,
~Joey :-)


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Nov 26 15:44:36 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:44:36 -0000
Subject: Thanksgiving with a touch of canon
Message-ID: <hem7p4+n5em@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188521

List members click on "next" and find themselves in a most unusual parlor. Every piece of furniture is covered with orange and brown throws; large red and yellow poufs are scattered about. The air is thick with the competing scents of burning candles, all in colors to match the room and in every fragrance known to spice merchants. 

Celestina Warbeck's seasonal hit "These are a Few of My Favorite Spells" is playing on the Wizarding Wireless. Several stunned garden gnomes dressed like pilgrims and Native Americans sit on the mantle. They all look unhappy but the one wearing a turkey costume looks particularly nervous. 

A table is laden with treats--pumpkin juice, pumpkinseeds, pumpkin soup, pumpkin bread, and pumpkin pie. Standing by the table is Potioncat in an orange sweater looking something like a pumpkin herself.

Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate and a very good day to those who don't. HP4GU is on my list of things I'm thankful for. Thanks to the list members for thoughtful posts, interesting discussions and heated debates. Thanks to List Elves for keeping it all going.

Potioncat





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Nov 26 16:07:23 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:07:23 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <853287.66037.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hem93r+3bug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188522


> >Alla:
> No, that would be the very second after Pansy suggested to give up their classmate to the leader of murderers and torturers against whom Hogwarts is preparing to defend themselves.
> <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Joey:
> 
> 
> I agree with Alla's points though there is a slight difference in the way I look at it, I suppose. I think it is natural for a typical human being to think of himself / herself before others and I don't expect Slytherins to be self-sacrificing in nature. Yet I do think that their attitude and behaviour fade in comparison to what students of other houses did in similar circumstances.?I could not help admiring what the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs did in that scene - they could have agreed with Pansy and / or left along with the Slytherins but they didn't. 

Pippin:
Many of the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, and possibly some of the Gryffindors, did leave with the Slytherins. We don't know if any of them agreed with Pansy  -- all we know is that no one tried to do as she suggested -- grab Harry. We don't even know that, if it came down to it, Pansy would have handed Harry over. Taking Harry prisoner is not the same as giving him to Voldemort.

But more importantly, the Slytherins' circumstances are not similar. All the other Houses have DA members. The DA already know that Harry is at Hogwarts, accept him as their leader,  and are already prepared  to fight LV if they're attacked. They are several steps ahead of the Slytherins in the decision-making process, which allows them to react more quickly. Once they are on their feet, pointing their wands at the Slytherins, it's too late for the Slytherins to do anything. If they even move, it's going to be interpreted as a hostile act.

And the reason that there are no DA members from Slytherin is  that none of them were invited to join.  Canon shows  that there are, and always have been, Slytherins who would oppose  Voldemort.

Pippin





From juli17 at aol.com  Fri Nov 27 04:17:35 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17ptf)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 04:17:35 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <hem93r+3bug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <henjsv+occg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188523


> 
> Pippin:
> Many of the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, and possibly some of the Gryffindors, did leave with the Slytherins. We don't know if any of them agreed with Pansy  -- all we know is that no one tried to do as she suggested -- grab Harry. We don't even know that, if it came down to it, Pansy would have handed Harry over. Taking Harry prisoner is not the same as giving him to Voldemort.
> 

Julie:
I'm slipping in late here, but this is one of those scenes I
take with a grain of salt, because it so obviously reflects
JKR's own bias in ranking the Houses in terms of virtue and
character. Thus all (or virtually all) of Gryffindor stands
up for Harry, most of Hufflepuff, some of Ravenclaw, and no
Slytherins. From the best to the worst, all in a tidy order.

I read many of the responses to the question of who best
represents each house, and here is my response. FYI, I am
going with who I think is the greatest credit to each 
house.

Gryffindor: Harry. He has plenty of physical courage (the
kind JKR admires), and can generally be counted on to act 
selflessly. Though he has the Gryffindor impulsiveness, 
acting on his emotion of the moment rather than thinking
things out first, he does avoid the worst traits of typical
Gryffindors, excess arrogance and bullying (James, Sirius). 

Gryffindor who was missorted: Pettigrew. Rash? Hardly.
Courageous? Please. He couldn't even manage one of the
typical negative Gryffindor traits, bullying, because
he didn't have the guts! Instead he was content to 
salivate from the sidelines. 

Non-Gryffindor who should have been Gryffindor: Draco.
Seriously. He misses a bit in physical courage I know,
but he's right there in arrogance, bullying, and rash
behaviour. 

Slytherin: Snape. (I'm thinking "best" representative
of each house, and despite what Dumbledore may have 
meant by his "sorting too early" comment, Snape is it.)
He was clever and ambitious for his own success. When 
someone he loved died, he simply altered his life's
ambition, and he used all his cunning and cleverness
to attain that goal, which was atoning for his part
in Lily's death (though that goal eventually came to 
include saving all those he could from Voldemort). The
sin isn't in cleverness and ambition per se, but in the
nature of that ambition, which is where so many young
Slyterins went astray when they tied themselves to
Voldemort and his goal of exterminating non-Purebloods.

Slytherin who was missorted: Draco. Again, his tendency
toward rash behaviour is the opposite of cunning (which
requires subtlety and patience). 

Non-Slytherin who should have been Slytherin: Hermione.
She is clever, cunning, and quite ambitious. Despite her
love of books, she still sees learning as a means to an
end (typical of Slytherin ambition) rather than as an
end itself (typical of Ravenclaw love of knowledge). 

Hufflepuff: Cedric. He wasn't an impulsive risk-taker, or
overly ambitious or cunning, or a closet intellectual,
but he was the most well-rounded student we saw, endowed
with equal (and more than sufficient) ambition, courage and
smarts. Just the guy your mom wants you to bring home ;-)

Hufflepuff who was missorted: Sorry, don't know enough
of them to say.

Non-Hufflepuff who should have been Hufflepuff: Cho. She
seemed fairly well-rounded, but an intellectual with her
head alternately in books or in the clouds? No. 

Ravenclaw: Luna. Yes, she was flaky. But she was all about
knowledge for its own sake, even if her "knowledge" of 
certain aspects of the Wizarding World were purely in her.
her head. She lived in her own world, not uncommon for 
intellectuals. But she avoided the worst pitfall of many
Ravenclaws, being so enshrined in her Ivory tower that 
she couldn't connect with her own emotions or empathize
with those around her. 

Ravenclaw who was missorted: Cho. See above.

Non-Ravenclaw who should have been a Ravenclaw: Dumbledore.
(I'm going on the assumption Dumbledore was a Gryffindor 
even though I'm not sure the books ever stated such). Except
perhaps in his youth, Dumbledore made every decision based 
on cold logic and strategy. And he was an intellectually
gifted strategist (and maybe part Slytherin) but he had 
little if any empathy for those around him. Not Snape, not
Lupin, not any of his students. Not until Harry, and even
then he admitted that his fondness for Harry was something
he'd never intended, a mistake on his part. For Dumbledore,
the needs of the many outweighed any consideration for the
few or the one. For that one needs to harden the heart.

 
Julie





From librasmile at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 27 18:42:25 2009
From: librasmile at yahoo.com (Terri Heard)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:42:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: JKR and the intellectual
Message-ID: <405354.4785.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188524


Juli:
>>>>>I'm slipping in late here, but this is one of those scenes I
take with a grain of salt, because it so obviously reflects
JKR's own bias in ranking the Houses in terms of virtue and
character. Thus all (or virtually all) of Gryffindor stands
up for Harry, most of Hufflepuff, some of Ravenclaw, and no
Slytherins. From the best to the worst, all in a tidy order.>>>>>


Hi,
I'm a member but I lurk. But this is fascinating (i.e. Sorting Hat for a Day and which houses follow Harry to fight Voldemort) so I wanted to comment.

Am I the only one who has little patience with JKR's explicit and implicit dislike of intellectualism? I mean the Harry Potter books are always touted as a good way to get children to tead. But I don't consider the books to be particularly rich in their use of language. And I can't help but think that JKR's attitude toward academic achievement (i.e. Hermione and some of the other characters' reactions to her) is helpful in getting children to continue reading.

What do you all think of this? Am I off the mark? Or is anyone else frustrated with JKR's apparent anti-intellectualism?

Librasmile.


?Check out my blog at www.being-heard.blogspot.com







From lauren1 at catliness.com  Sat Nov 28 01:45:24 2009
From: lauren1 at catliness.com (Lauren Merryfield)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:45:24 -0800
Subject: Pronunciation of JKR's name
References: <405354.4785.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E57B42CC75334F279FF1BFF5E6C74E4F@laurenye0o5w8x>

No: HPFGUIDX 188525

Hi,
I have never known how to pronounce JKR's last name.  Is it Rowling, rhyming with growling or Rowling, rhyming with growing?  
Thanks
Lauren

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 28 04:50:22 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 04:50:22 -0000
Subject: Pronunciation of JKR's name
In-Reply-To: <E57B42CC75334F279FF1BFF5E6C74E4F@laurenye0o5w8x>
Message-ID: <heqa6e+892v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188526

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lauren Merryfield" <lauren1 at ...> wrote:

> I have never known how to pronounce JKR's last name.  
> Is it Rowling, rhyming with growling or Rowling, rhyming 
> with growing?  


zanooda:

I remember I once tried to research this, and every Internet article about JKR says her name is pronounced "roll-ing", like in "Rolling Stone". I don't know how true this is... :-).




From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Sat Nov 28 06:51:13 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:51:13 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pronunciation of JKR's name
Message-ID: <bcd.5df5b48f.38422261@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188527

 
In a message dated 11/27/2009 10:54:22 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
zanooda2 at yahoo.com writes:

zanooda:

I remember I once tried to research this, and  every Internet article about 
JKR says her name is pronounced "roll-ing", like  in "Rolling Stone". I 
don't know how true this is...  :-).



I saw an on air interview with her and she mimicked using a rolling pin  
when asked how to pronounce her name
 
Melissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Nov 28 07:31:16 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:31:16 -0000
Subject: Pronunciation of JKR's name
In-Reply-To: <E57B42CC75334F279FF1BFF5E6C74E4F@laurenye0o5w8x>
Message-ID: <heqjk4+383g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188528

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lauren Merryfield" <lauren1 at ...> wrote:

Lauren:
> Hi,
> I have never known how to pronounce JKR's last name.  Is it Rowling, rhyming with growling or Rowling, rhyming with growing?  
> Thanks

Geoff:
As others have said, it is to rhyme with "rolling". It is a fairly common 
UK name and wouldn't cause us any problems. I had a close friend at 
school who was a Rowling.





From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Sat Nov 28 03:49:06 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:49:06 -0800
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 13, Nicolas Flamel
Message-ID: <D28D05C19CB94F06A349B2366ED76AB7@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188529

Questions:
1. Reflect on the role of dreams in Harry's maturation as a wizard. How have
they helped and/or hindered his development?
 
--They have often led him into risking his life when it wasn't actually
necessary (especially if you include the visions he had in Book 5) and in
putting others in danger as well. The goals have always been worthy; the
thoughts that led to the plan, not always well-done; the actions themselves,
often unfortunate. 

2. Why did Snape referee the Quidditch game? And why might he have seemed
angrier than usual before the match?
 
--To save Harry's life. Quidditch is dangerous. And he may need to act while
being close enough to see what's going on. Why angrier than usual--because
everyone (including his own students, likely enough) think he's there to
throw the game to the Hufflepuffs. Though given the general prejudice in
favor of the Gryffindors, I suspect members of Hufflepuff could have
favorable opinions of that, which they know better to mention outside their
own Common Room. Snape may well be wishing himself safely on the ground, as
well--he may be terrified of heights, bad at flying unless he absolutely
must, doesn't trust what Quirrel might do to _his_ broom, and praying Merlin
not to puke. And it's all for Harry's sake, who knows that Snape is the evil
one (this is a pattern that occurs throughout the whole series--Harry never
thanks Snape once while the Potions Master is alive, even when he knows that
Snape has saved his life).  

3. Why is Hermione's advice to Neville (to confront Malfoy), and Neville's
subsequent action critical to the HP series? 
 
--Because in the end, Neville does find his courage (and earns a pair of
snakeskin boots). If he had been treated the way one suspects Peter
Pettigrew was treated, he may well have been frightened into treachery. It
is interesting to see the parallels to the Marauders here. Harry, of course,
could easily have been like James if he hadn't learned what bullying was
like from the inside--although he takes on his father's prejudices, he
rarely allows the Trio to stomp just Draco or any single Slytherin for kicks
and giggles. Ron has the impulse control problem of Sirius Black, but is
willing to be restrained by Harry when it's clear he would really rather
stomp people the way he's been stomped by the twins. Hermione tries to be
the conscience of the Trio, although by the fifth book she's clearly given
up (rather like Remus; she's not a werewolf, but she _is_ a Muggleborn, and
that does make a difference, even in Gryffindor). Neville could have been
Peter if he'd been treated the same way. 

4. Speculate as to whether there may be numerological significance to
Nicolas and Perenelle's ages (665 & 658, respectively). [Interesting:
Perennial, Continuing without cessation or intermission; perpetual;
unceasing; never failing. [1913 Webster]
 
Hey, nothing like dating older men...<G> Let's see, Nicholas' age can be
reduced down to 8, which is the number of prosperity. There's the gold for
you. Perenelle's age can be reduced down to 1; which means she might have
been the dominant pair of the couple. 1 is also the first number, which
could refer to the eternal life aspect of the Stone. 

5. In the forest, Snape says to Quirrell: "You don't want me as your enemy,
Quirrell." What did you make of this statement on your first read? Given
what we know of Snape, has the significance of this statement changed?
 
--I'd say he was giving SQuirrell fair warning. <G>  And it turned out to be
true of the DADA teacher's Unknown Passenger, too. Neither one survived. 

6. Given that Harry found the Snitch so quickly and ended the game, thus
ensuring his safety for the next five minutes, is Snape now going to be
hated by Hufflepuff? Would there be any way for Snape to gaff or fix the
Snitch so that Harry could find it quickly and thus be out of danger for a
little while? 

 

Jean Lamb

Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?

tlambs1138 at charter.net

excessiveperky at LJ

 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From a1.mills at portset.net  Sat Nov 28 09:55:01 2009
From: a1.mills at portset.net (Andrew)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:55:01 +0000
Subject: Most scary/disturbing quotes and scenes from the HP books
Message-ID: <200911280653.nAS6rZ7K023045@post.portset.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 188530

Just wondering, what does everyone think the most scary or disturbing quote and scene is from the whole HP series.  For me, the most frightening scene was the one in Godricks Hollow when Nagini came out of Bagshot's body.  Just imagining that scene makes me think of something from a horror film.  I think one of the quotes I found most disturbing was one in book 4.  It was a very simple little phrase, only 3 words "kill the spare".  That quote just underlined (if we didn't know it already) how totally evil Voldemort was.  He just had Cedric killed, thrown aside like a piece of rubbish.  He could have stunned him, imobilised him, anything, but no.  He was just an inconvenience to Voldemort's plans so had to be got rid of.  To me that little quote just proved that Voldemort cared about absolutely nobody.  I'd be interested to hear which scenes and quotes made others either feel scared or really made them think about something.  There are lots of other things that either made me!
  think, made me angry, etc. but these two are things that to me stand out from the others.

AJM



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Nov 28 18:41:47 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:41:47 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <henjsv+occg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <herqtb+iuhd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188531



> Julie:
> I'm slipping in late here, but this is one of those scenes I
> take with a grain of salt, because it so obviously reflects
> JKR's own bias in ranking the Houses in terms of virtue and
> character. Thus all (or virtually all) of Gryffindor stands
> up for Harry, most of Hufflepuff, some of Ravenclaw, and no
> Slytherins. From the best to the worst, all in a tidy order.

Pippin:
It's not as tidy as it looks. Not everyone who leaves is fleeing in terror. Some are going to sneak back, some are going to get help, some are going to join their parents in the Death Eaters.   Three whose parents we know are DE's stay behind, a Gryffindor sneaks back, a Hufflepuff DA member flees in obvious panic and the Head of Slytherin gets help. Not what you'd predict from their houses, is it? Maybe more Hufflepuffs than Ravenclaws stay behind because Justin is more popular  than Luna is. 

But wait, there's more. Everyone stands up to face the Slytherins, right?
I haven't got my books with me, but that's the way I remember it. Only, when it comes to actually fighting LV and an army of Death Eaters, as opposed to student wizards who are outnumbered three to one, it seems a lot of Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, and maybe a few Gryffindors as well,  suddenly had business elsewhere. I wonder who are really shown to be the cowards here?

Pippin





From sweenlit at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 19:39:13 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:39:13 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR and the intellectual
In-Reply-To: <405354.4785.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <405354.4785.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0911281139g6ab0ebd4ga7c5dff9bfa009aa@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188532

Librasmile:

I can't help but think that JKR's attitude toward academic achievement (i.e.
Hermione and some of the other characters' reactions to her) is helpful in
getting children to continue reading.
What do you all think of this? Am I off the mark? Or is anyone else
frustrated with JKR's apparent anti-intellectualism?

---------------

Lynda:

Off the mark? I don't know for sure,but as for being anti-intellectual or
not encouraging kids to read, that's not what I've seen in working with
kids, which I do for a living.  Kids who read Harry Potter, do well in
school, go on to college (which in my part of the U.S. in not usual--I'm
speaking of four year colleges and beyond, not the two year community
colleges that offer kids a leg up and a quick job opportunity although there
is much admirable about those colleges and programs).  Is Rowling poking fun
at those intellectuals who denigrate what she's done? Possibly. Is she
saying that it's okay for kids not to finish school and that they can still
make something of their lives if they don't? Obviously.  But more than that,
maybe she's saying that intellectualism is not limited to the Master's and
Doctoral degrees and that overweening pride is always a problem.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 28 19:59:27 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 19:59:27 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 13, Nicolas Flamel
In-Reply-To: <hekru1+5h49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hervev+mi1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188533

Njeri:
2. Why did Snape referee the Quidditch game? And why might he have seemed
angrier than usual before the match?

Alla:

Well of course to protect Harry's life from possible repetition of the attack. But I think he would have happily stuck it to Gryffindors, while protecting Harry's life as well. 

3. Why is Hermione's advice to Neville (to confront Malfoy), and Neville's
subsequent action critical to the HP series?

Alla:

I am not sure where in this chapter Hermione gives Neville advice to confront Malfoy, could you clarify please? I see Hermione giving an advice to **report** Malfoy and that to me is quite different from confronting him. I may have missed it, I appreciate the clarification. Now Ron and Harry definitely encourage Neville to stand up to Malfoy IMO and sure, I agree that this is playing in one of the central themes of the series ? courage as the best character's trait, courage of standing up to evil and sometimes standing up to one's friends, etc.


5. In the forest, Snape says to Quirrell: "You don't want me as your enemy,
Quirrell." What did you make of this statement on your first read? Given what we
know of Snape, has the significance of this statement changed?


Alla:

Oh I definitely did not figure out that Snape was not the villain on my first read, so I thought that means that he was implying that Quirrell did not want him as servant of Voldemort to be his enemy.

Now, did the significance of this statement change? Actually, I think it did, but in a bit of different way from how I read your question.

Regardless of my personal very intense dislike of Snape I always thought of him as formidable opponent, even when I thought that he, you know, killed Dumbledore because he was ever so evil. But as far as I am concerned, evil wise Snape is really really good at taking out his anger at kids, oh yes. But you do not want me as your enemy? Oh no, Snape, I would not want your **boss** as my enemy, that is for sure and I mean Dumbledore. But you? Um, you followed Dumbledore quite faithfully, so no I think as a wizard I will be quite okay standing up against your threats lol. I do not mean to say that Snape is not a powerful wizard here, of course he is very powerful, I just do not see him as somebody whom adult wizard should fear. After all Dumbledore showed us how easily he could be manipulated in the lifetime of slavery erm
 I mean service. 

I guess I should say that I think Snape is certainly an opponent to be afraid in wizarding duel, in the battle or something like that, but not in a long term strategic sense if that makes sense. IMO of course.

Jean:
<HUGE SNIP>
Neville could have been
Peter if he'd been treated the same way.

Alla:

I am just wondering where do you see the possible parallels between Peter and Neville? I guess I just see the series putting emphasis on one's own choices more than anybody else's *driving* person to them. 

And speaking about treachery, there was a lot of speculation in the past on list that Ron will end up being a traitor and I am guilty of wondering about that as well after GoF,  I was wondering if this was a foreshadowing of Ron's betraying Harry. I guess it was foreshadowing of him leaving and coming back instead. 

What I am trying to say is that personally I thought it was very well done that she did not made anybody to be a traitor among the younger generation.

Njeri, thanks for the interesting questions.

Alla






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 28 20:17:12 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:17:12 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat for a Day
In-Reply-To: <herqtb+iuhd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hes0g8+6h2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188534

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:


> But wait, there's more. Everyone stands up to face the 
> Slytherins, right? I haven't got my books with me, but 
> that's the way I remember it. Only, when it comes to 
> actually fighting LV and an army of Death Eaters, as 
> opposed to student wizards who are outnumbered three 
> to one, it seems a lot of Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, 
> and maybe a few Gryffindors as well, suddenly had business 
> elsewhere. 


zanooda:

You are exactly right, *all* the Hufflepuffs, Ravenclaws and Gryffindors stood up to face Pansy and the Slytherins. There is a difference though in the number of those who stayed to fight: "a number" (I don't really know if it's a lot :-)) of the Ravenclaws, even more of the Hufflepuffs, and half of the Gryffindors, some of them underage :-).




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Nov 29 16:22:49 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:22:49 -0000
Subject: Most scary/disturbing quotes and scenes from the HP books
In-Reply-To: <200911280653.nAS6rZ7K023045@post.portset.net>
Message-ID: <heu74p+pf44@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188535



 Andrew wrote:
>
> Just wondering, what does everyone think the most scary or disturbing quote and scene is from the whole HP series.  

Potioncat:
For me both disturbing scenes involve LV and go along with your example of Cedric's death. The first is in HBP or DH when LV loses his temper over a piece of bad news and begins firing killing curses at DEs--with people scrambling to get out of the room.

The other is in DH when he prepares to kill Snape. That LV could coolly plan and carry out the murder of the man who was his favorite a short time ago--for no purpose other than making a magic work better. Gives me chills.

May I bring up TMTMNBN? My daughter--a die hard horror movie fan-- has long insisted that the most frightening scene in any movie ever is in SS/PS when come comes up behind the Trio and says, "Good afternoon."




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Nov 29 18:00:58 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 29 Nov 2009 18:00:58 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/29/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1259517658.9.50564.m1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188536

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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Weekly Chat
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Notes:
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From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 30 00:20:53 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 00:20:53 -0000
Subject: Crabbengoyle / Socks / Duffers / Snape back story / Perenelle
Message-ID: <hev355+kvmd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188537

Potioncat wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188488>:

<< I never thought [Crabbe and Goyle] were so much loyal to Draco, as they were using him. >>

I always thought they were loyal to Draco, until that last scene in the Room of Requirement showed that Crabbe was (like the description of Peter Pettigrew) only attaching himself to the biggest bully available for his own benefit. Goyle, however, remained loyal to Draco even after Crabbe had stated that Draco was out of power. That may be because Goyle was too stupid to understand what Crabbe said.

Debbie wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/
188491>:

<< However, once I learned that Hogwarts employed house elves to do the dirty work, I developed a theory that the image of Dumbledore holding socks was a metaphor for his desire to bring the outcasts and 
underlings of the wizarding world into full participation in the WW and that someday he would (at least metaphorically) hurl the socks into the Hogwarts kitchen to free them. >>

Someone had a related theory that Dumbledore himself was actually Flamel's House Elf (in disguise) and he saw the socks because his deepest wish was to be freed.

Potioncat wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188488> [and elsewhere]:

<< So, do you think Hufflepuff is as good a house as Gryffindor, or do you think they are mainly duffers? >>

I think the difference between the ideal Hufflepuff and the ideal Gryffindor is that the ideal Hufflepuff is good at modesty and the ideal Gryffindor is good at self-promotion. 

But there seems to be a certain Hufflepuff tendency, not much shared by Gryffindors, to obey rules and mores, which gives the impression of conventional thinking and lack of creativity. One might at first 
have thought Ernie Macmillan was a 'duffer', but he was one of the few in Advanced Potions.

However, in one of the Sorting Hat's songs, Helga declared that she would take all the students that none of the other Founders wanted. That means, some of her students are just rejects. 

I think the Hat sorts based on seeing deeper into the student than a mere human could (even a mere human who was the greatest witch or wizard of his or her time), and thus Godric would have rejected Neville, Rowena would have rejected Luna, and Salazar would have rejected crabbe and Goyle as students, altho' he might have accepted them as Draco's live-in servants.

Joey wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/
188505>:

<< these traits fit Snape seeing how he handled LV to achieve his goal; he was quite ambitious when he was young, yes; of course, he is a pure blood. >>

Snape is a Half Blood if his mother's husband Tobias Snape was his father. Rowling doesn't go into things like whether Eileen married an abusive Muggle because she "had to" get married because she was pregnant by a married Pure Blood wizard. However the description of Eileen's photo as 'not pretty' and 'cross and sullen' (even tho' she was photographed at a happy moment, as President of the Gobstones Club!) is not supposed to indicate that a married wizard would seek to dally with her. 

I like a back story in which Eileen Prince was somehow attractive enough (and naive enough) that Orion Black swept her off her feet and then tossed her aside. Sirius and Severus had seen each other before the Hogwarts Express, when Eileen brought her son to Grimmauld Place to beg Orion Black for money for her to leave Tobias. Orion refused to give her money and denied being the father of her 'half-breed' son. When they saw each other on the Hogwarts Express, Sirius recognized that ragged, crying beggar and Severus recognized the boy who had everything he (Severus) wanted. 

Njeri discussed PS/SS Chapter 13 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188518>:

<< 4. Speculate as to whether there may be numerological significance to Nicolas and Perenelle's ages (665 & 658, respectively). [Interesting: Perennial, Continuing without cessation or intermission; perpetual; unceasing; never failing. [1913 Webster] >>

IIRC the historical Nicolas Flamel's historical wife was named Perenelle or Pernel.




From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Sun Nov 29 23:37:10 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:37:10 -0800
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 13, Nicolas Flamel
Message-ID: <825CC342F90547DB93DF25479D07962B@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188538

Alla:

I am just wondering where do you see the possible parallels between Peter
and Neville? I guess I just see the series putting emphasis on one's own
choices more than anybody else's *driving* person to them. 

--You're quite right. Choices are seen as evidence of inborn moral fiber or
lack of it, rather than a combination of personality traits and environment.
And the house automatically makes a difference; pranks are Eeeevil if a
Slytherin is responsible, while attempted murder is apparently quite all
right if a Gryffindor is involved. Being Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw means being
lucky if your name is mentioned. 
 
It _does_ make a difference how a person is raised and/or treated by others
when they grow up. Harry, as always, is very much an exception, but that's
because he's the hero. Other kids who have grown up in abusive homes would
have behaved much differently in some respects. For instance, someone who
grew up in a home where there was a lot of hitting would notice fairly
quickly that Snape only yells, and never hits--even the jar of cockroaches
misses Harry, and that's after Harry does something extraordinarily rude
(for which he never apologizes). Snape had a valid expectation of Harry
starting up the 'Snivellus' nickname again, and laughing with his friends
over it; the fact it didn't happen is something that Snape could not have
expected. After all, even Lily used that nickname in the Worst Memory. 
 
As for Neville and Peter--Neville was treated as if he was going to be a
Squib for nearly all his childhood. He could easily have turned into the
laughingstock of Gryffindor. Remember, even McGonagall treats him almost as
harshly as Snape does (leaving him sit outside the Fat Lady because he
didn't remember the password). If the twins had decided to have fun with him
as well as with Ron and Percy, it would have been easy for the rest of
Gryffindor to follow. You can turn someone bad if you treat them horribly
enough; social workers have files and files of clients who were abused and
then later turned up in the justice system. 
 
Look at how Unforgivables are considered--it's always all right for a
Gryffindor to use one, but wrong for everybody else. Crucios are supposed to
be evil--and yet Harry does them, but it's always for a 'good' reason. It's
bad when Draco does it, but ok when Harry does it. Doesn't that sound like a
double standard there? It's bad for Snape to threaten Sirius Black with the
Dementors, even though he has every reason to believe Sirus betrayed James
and Lily to their deaths, but it's just fine for Sirius Black to knock
around Snape when he's unconscious. But then, you hate Snape and love
Sirius, so that makes all the difference. 
 
Should it? Shouldn't some things be wrong no matter who does them? 
 
Or are things wrong only when the people you don't like do them? Rowling
seems to suggest the second. In fact, Albus Dumbledore seems flabbergasted
that Snape is protecting Harry without liking him, and that Snape is somehow
morally inferior for not liking Harry. Should being good or bad depend only
on how well Harry Potter likes you?

Jean Lamb

Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?

tlambs1138 at charter.net

excessiveperky at LJ

 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 30 02:08:31 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:08:31 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <825CC342F90547DB93DF25479D07962B@excessivelypPC>
Message-ID: <hev9ev+4tp5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188539

Jean:
<SNIP>
It _does_ make a difference how a person is raised and/or treated by others
when they grow up.

Alla:

Of course it does, I have not said that it does not. I am disagreeing with the degree of how much it does. I do not believe that a person who became a traitor for example would have become one if he did not have it in him. I do not believe that a person who became a member of the gang of murderers and torturers would have become one if the person did not want to.

Jean:
<SNIP>
For instance, someone who
grew up in a home where there was a lot of hitting would notice fairly
quickly that Snape only yells, and never hits--even the jar of cockroaches
misses Harry, and that's after Harry does something extraordinarily rude
(for which he never apologizes).

Alla:

Well, no, not just after Harry does something extraordinary rude. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude on the first lesson. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude on so many other instances and Snape still abused him verbally as far as I am concerned. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude when Snape took the book he was reading away from him. Harry did not do anything rude whatsoever when Snape destroyed his potion.

Sure, Snape usually yells, he is not a physical but verbal abuser as far as I am concerned

Jean:
Snape had a valid expectation of Harry
starting up the 'Snivellus' nickname again, and laughing with his friends
over it; the fact it didn't happen is something that Snape could not have
expected. After all, even Lily used that nickname in the Worst Memory.

Alla:

I completely disagree that it is a valid expectation that little boy who just arrives in the world unknown to him will use a rude nickname used by his father he never knew in part thanks to Snape dear.  He is a boy for crying out loud, an orphaned boy in part thanks to Snape. See, I do not like the way Dumbledore manipulated him into protecting Harry, not at all. If I look at the characters from within the story I wish he would have found another protector, trust me. I mean, I am not complaining because otherwise this story would have been so different of course. However, I think Snape owed Harry so so much that this is a debt he should have been paying, I just think he should have been decent enough to treat the boy he helped rob of childhood better. I do not think protecting his life gave him any right to verbal abuse.


Jean:
<SNIP>
As for Neville and Peter--Neville was treated as if he was going to be a
Squib for nearly all his childhood. He could easily have turned into the
laughingstock of Gryffindor. Remember, even McGonagall treats him almost as
harshly as Snape does (leaving him sit outside the Fat Lady because he
didn't remember the password). If the twins had decided to have fun with him
as well as with Ron and Percy, it would have been easy for the rest of
Gryffindor to follow. You can turn someone bad if you treat them horribly
enough; social workers have files and files of clients who were abused and
then later turned up in the justice system. <SNIP>

Alla:

I guess I just do not see the parallels how Neville and Peter were treated by their peers and I do not see the potential for treachery in Neville. Yes, there are abused people who cannot break cycle of abuse and there are those who can. And  I feel bad for all of them, but no, I do not think it is a justification for them to continue abusing others and that is what I feel Snape did to Harry. I do not think you can **turn somebody bad**, I guess this is the main difference.  And sure, of course I agree that McGonagall's treatment of Neville was extremely harsh, unfair and borderline abuse in several situations, I will find my old posts when we discussed this topic about why I do not consider her treatment of Neville to be just as abusive as Snape's, but I certainly agree that it comes pretty darn close.

DISCLAIMER since I know how hot the topic of Snape as abuser always was and is. It is my opinion, just my opinion ONLY my opinion. But it is not an opinion that is ever going to change.

JMO,

Alla









From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 30 04:33:46 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:33:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Most scary/disturbing quotes and scenes from the HP books
In-Reply-To: <200911280653.nAS6rZ7K023045@post.portset.net>
References: <200911280653.nAS6rZ7K023045@post.portset.net>
Message-ID: <961395.17725.qm@web46204.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188540

AJM wrote:
>Just wondering, what does everyone think the most scary or disturbing quote and scene is from the whole HP series.


Whatever you said plus Potioncat's remark about Snape's murder?and also, these:


1. The way Voldy treated & killed Prof. Charity - I feel quite angry and disturbed whenever I read it.


2. "Malfoy Manor" in DH?with Bellatrix and Greyback at their worst - I feel these 2 are worse than Voldy himself.


3. Bellatrix's mock baby voice in OoTP climax - pretty creepy and sickening.

Hmmm,
~Joey :-)


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 30 07:43:52 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:43:52 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of Erised
In-Reply-To: <he2gfl+ii7l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hevt3o+53gg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188541

5. Did you expect Ron to grow up to be Head Boy and Quidditch Captain? Do you think he might have if events had unfolded differently and Voldemort hadn't returned?

Joey: 

No. Events might have unfolded differently for Ron if Voldemort hadn't
returned considering the fact that I think The Silver Doe chapter in DH is when Ron had a major personality change.

6. How did Dumbledore know that Harry had found the mirror and what Harry and Ron had seen in it? 

Joey: 

Didn't Harry mention that while he and Ron were pushing each other to look into the mirror?

7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in
the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen?

Joey:

I had no theories then but I found it tough to beleive though.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 30 07:55:12 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:55:12 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 13, Nicolas Flamel
In-Reply-To: <hekru1+5h49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hevtp0+6g93@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188542

>2. Why did Snape referee the Quidditch game? And why might he have seemed angrier than usual before the match?

Joey:

To save Harry. I think Snape hated watching Potter's son in his element in a Quidditch game and was frustrated about it as such. Add to it the strain of having to observe with care to save someone.

>5. In the forest, Snape says to Quirrell: "You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell." What did you make of this statement on your first read? Given what we know of Snape, has the significance of this statement changed?

Joey:

First read: Well, Snape *did* sound like a villain. :-)

Significance of this statement has changed indeed. He hoodwinked even the never-trust-anybody Voldy, didn't he?

Cheers,
~Joey :-)





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 30 09:41:39 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:41:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Crabbengoyle / Socks / Duffers / Snape back story / Perenelle
In-Reply-To: <hev355+kvmd@eGroups.com>
References: <hev355+kvmd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <503350.84190.qm@web46216.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188543

Joey wrote in <http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/HPforGrown ups/message/
188505>:

<< these traits fit Snape seeing how he handled LV to achieve his goal; he was quite ambitious when he was young, yes; of course, he is a pure blood. >>

>Catlady:
>Snape is a Half Blood if his mother's husband Tobias Snape was his father. 


Joey:


Ah, yes; Potioncat too pointed out this error. :-) So, despite what it said in one of its songs, the Hat does try to sort (Harry) or does sort (Snape) into Slytherin. 


Cheers,
~Joey :-)


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 30 10:21:34 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:21:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Duffers
In-Reply-To: <hev355+kvmd@eGroups.com>
References: <hev355+kvmd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <695725.79654.qm@web46207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188544

>Catlady wrote:
>However, in one of the Sorting Hat's songs, Helga declared that she would take all the students that none of the other Founders wanted. That means, some of her students are just rejects. 

Joey:


Rejects of only Godric, Rowena and Salazar. As such, 4 houses are not sufficient to sort people on personality traits, I think. 


>Catlady wrote:
>I think the Hat sorts based on seeing deeper into the student than a mere human could (even a mere human who was the greatest witch or wizard of his or her time), and thus Godric would have rejected Neville, Rowena would have rejected Luna, and Salazar would have rejected crabbe and Goyle as students, altho' he might have accepted them as Draco's live-in servants.


Joey:

?
Though I do tend to think that Salazar would have let Crabbe and Goyle in for thier blood status (after seeing what he did regarding the CoS and Basilisk), I agree with you?for the most part?and?I think the Hat does so?because it has the "minds" of *all* four founders (and probably, a mind of its own? If so, remembering Arthur's words, wonder where the Hat?keeps its brain. :-))

Cheers,
~Joey :-)


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Nov 30 14:33:59 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:33:59 -0000
Subject: Duffers
In-Reply-To: <hev355+kvmd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hf0l4n+sm3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188545

Catlady:
> 
> However, in one of the Sorting Hat's songs, Helga declared that she would take all the students that none of the other Founders wanted. That means, some of her students are just rejects. 
> 

Potioncat:
I went to the HP Lexicon so I could look at all the Sorting Hat songs at once. Here's the link. 
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts/sorting_hat.html


The Sorting Hat changes its tune as the years go by, staring out with a simple description of the houses and ending with something of an essay on the whole system. (OK, so some of you picked up on that a long time ago.) The last song is all about what each of the Founders based their decisions upon. None of the criteria have anything to do with magical ability or potential. The first song does a better job of describing the houses while the last song is concentrating on the founders. 

Hufflepuff House starts out as just, loyal, patient, hardworking; moves to hardworking only; and ends as merely accepting all the ones not chosen by the other three houses. We call that inclusion in modern education. At least, that's what it reminds me of. 

I keep bringing up whether readers see Hufflepuff as duffers because I'm not sure what really comes across about the house. I don't see them as duffers, or as second rate. If we look at the basic criteria for the houses I think Hufflepuff is as worthy as any of the other three. After all, in the RW we may want brave policemen, but we also want just judges.

I think the most recent sorting hat song, "Good Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew," makes the house seem dummed down to many readers. Helga, it seems, did not judge her students on bravery, wit or blood status. She was willing to teach anyone who wanted to learn. Again, bravery, wit and blood status have nothing to do with magical potential. Hers is a "just" method of teaching. Hufflepuff's standards aren't low, they are just and patient and welcoming.

Bible alert!
The description of Hufflepuff reminded me of something familiar. I found it in 1Corrinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

Yep, I'll take Hufflepuff.
;-)






From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Mon Nov 30 15:31:48 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 08:31:48 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Duffers
References: <hf0l4n+sm3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8041E6DBE0CE49F299D7FCBF9D5A1384@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 188546

> Potioncat:
> I went to the HP Lexicon so I could look at all the Sorting Hat songs at 
> once. Here's the link.
> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts/sorting_hat.html
snip
> I keep bringing up whether readers see Hufflepuff as duffers because I'm 
> not sure what really comes across about the house. I don't see them as 
> duffers, or as second rate. If we look at the basic criteria for the 
> houses I think Hufflepuff is as worthy as any of the other three. After 
> all, in the RW we may want brave policemen, but we also want just judges.
>
> I think the most recent sorting hat song, "Good Hufflepuff, she took the 
> rest and taught them all she knew," makes the house seem dummed down to 
> many readers. Helga, it seems, did not judge her students on bravery, wit 
> or blood status. She was willing to teach anyone who wanted to learn. 
> Again, bravery, wit and blood status have nothing to do with magical 
> potential. Hers is a "just" method of teaching. Hufflepuff's standards 
> aren't low, they are just and patient and welcoming.


Shelley:
I did a lot of tutoring in my high school and college years, and so many of 
the students I tutored were eager learners, but just needed more attention. 
That's the type of person I see Hufflepuff teaching- those who wanted to 
learn but were being discarded as "not the best and brightest" or being 
someone's first pick (much like grade school choosing of teams). Needing a 
tutor doesn't make you a duffer or a sluffer, nor does it make you stupid. 
Rather, if you are seeking help and the extra attention to help you learn, I 
consider that to be a VERY "smart" decision! I see Hufflepuff as the type of 
person who could see through every student to help bring out their own gifts 
and abilities, the gifts and abilities that were being ignored by the other 
teachers as "important" (bravery, ambition, etc). Patience, kindness, 
compassion are gifts in their own right, and make for excellent healers and 
caretakers. Some witches and wizards might have had a natural talent for 
music, for example, but had trouble working that talent into his or her 
magical studies. Helga knew how to reach out to touch those inner qualities 
in those students and how to bring out the best in them. In that respect, I 
would consider her to be the best out of all the teachers. Any teacher can 
teach the best and the brightest, for those students will get high marks no 
matter what method is used on them, but the best teachers are the ones who 
know how to draw talent out of each and every student in his or her care. 
The best teachers see the worth of every human being, and that is no small 
feat in my book. It's too easy to be prejudiced, to be biased, to grab for 
yourself the "winners", as Slughorn did with his Slug-Club, but the best 
teachers of all are ones who care about the individual they are teaching and 
measure success by how far you've come, rather than your position at the 
starting point. I almost think that I might have been placed in Hufflepuff, 
giving my compassion to help people reach their full potential, because my 
views mirror that of Helga Hufflepuff. I wonder if the Sorting Hat would 
have had a long discussion with me about the values I have that would have 
benefitted the other Hufflepuffs, despite my argument to be placed in a 
"cool" group like Gryffindor.







From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Mon Nov 30 16:22:40 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:22:40 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 12, The Mirror of Erised
References: <hevt3o+53gg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <70211CACC2D449719E6B38F4E17606B0@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 188547

> 7. Did you believe Dumbledore when he said he saw himself holding socks in
> the mirror? What were your theories on what he might have seen?


Shelley:
Not for a second, do I believe the sock story. Harry himself pretty much 
doubted the sock story from the beginning, feeling that Dumbledore was just 
holding back the truth from Harry. We pretty much know that Dumbledore is a 
much deeper man than that, not being concerned with clothes the way Dobby 
would have been, or wanting vain trinkets, such as Slughorn did with candied 
pineapple or a good bottle of wine, so that "socks" could have been 
considered a truthful answer. Even an old, original copy of some book might 
have been a more truthful and believable answer for Dumbledore than "socks".

I think Dumbledore felt deeply about his past mistakes, and desired a world 
where his mistakes had not torn apart his family. I think he might have seen 
in the mirror his tiny sister whole and healthy (never abused) and able to 
be the bright young witch free to reach her full potential, his mom still 
alive, his dad still home as a loving father, and himself having a warm 
relationship with Aberforth. I think he might have seen his family as an 
intact unit that was free of the divisions of his real family, a family free 
of regrets and sorrow, a family free of abuse and disability, a family free 
of division and separation, a family free of pain. I think that as he looked 
into that mirror, it would only deepen the pain in his heart, because just 
as Harry found out that the mirror couldn't ever bring his dead parents back 
to life, the intellectual part of Dumbledore would have known that mirror 
could never restore to him the lost years of his dad in prison, Ariana's 
illness, the deaths of his mom and Ariana, and the disastrous consequences 
of his summer with Gellert. That's why he put it away, so that it wouldn't 
suck him into deeper despair over his past, or be a constant reminder of all 
the regrets he had that things could have turned out differently. I think 
that Dumbledore knew that if Harry continued to stare at that mirror, he too 
would just be sucked into a place of more pain, for it isn't healthy to live 
in a fantasy world where the bad things in your past never happened. A 
heathy person finds a way to deal with that hurt and pain, to move on, and 
he wanted Harry to grow up not contantly thinking of badly of himself for 
being an orphan, or tied to that thinking of "only if my parents had still 
been alive, then I could..."

It was brilliant of Dumbledore to put the Mirror of Erised as a trap for 
Voldemort, for Voldemort being greedy would only see his desires for eternal 
life, for the Stone, and not be wise enough to realize that it was trick of 
something that could never be. 




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 17:13:50 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:13:50 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Duffers
In-Reply-To: <hf0l4n+sm3n@eGroups.com>
References: <hev355+kvmd@eGroups.com> <hf0l4n+sm3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <700201d40911300913x1caaa736ya7e94a9c1f6e858c@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188548

> Potioncat:
> ...snip...
> I think the most recent sorting hat song, "Good Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew," makes the house seem dummed down to many readers. Helga, it seems, did not judge her students on bravery, wit or blood status. She was willing to teach anyone who wanted to learn. Again, bravery, wit and blood status have nothing to do with magical potential. Hers is a "just" method of teaching. Hufflepuff's standards aren't low, they are just and patient and welcoming.

Kemper now:
I don't think it makes it sound dummed down.  It sounds compassionate.
 Who would teach the rejected students if she wasn't there?  Would
they be distributed among the other three and if so, would they be
treated fairly by their Head of House?

I don't think so.  The other three with their check-off list of
requirements sound like d-bags.

> Potioncat:
> Bible alert!
> The description of Hufflepuff reminded me of something familiar. I found it in 1Corrinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

Kemper now:
I'm more reminded of the Good Samaritan.  Not that the her students
were beat down, but they were passed by and passed over.

Also, and I'm not sure if this is in canon or interview, but she's
also the one who opened up Hogwarts as a refuge for House Elves.  Or
something like that.  They were abused, and where other wizards passed
them over as second or third class beings, she treated them with
compassion.  Supposedly.  But that seems believable to me based on how
she's represented in canon.

> Potioncat:
> Yep, I'll take Hufflepuff.

Kemper now:
Me too!

Kemper



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 30 18:30:23 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:30:23 -0000
Subject: Slytherin Mind & Blood ... was: Crabbengoyle / Socks /...
In-Reply-To: <hev355+kvmd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hf12vv+10bpc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188549

---  "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:
>
...
> 
> Joey wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/
> 188505>:
> 
> << these traits fit Snape seeing how he handled LV to achieve his goal; he was quite ambitious when he was young, yes; of course, he is a pure blood. >>

Catlady replies: 
> 
> Snape is a Half Blood if his mother's husband Tobias Snape was his father. ...
> 
> ...

bboyminn:

We all know the Sorting Hat said in its song that Slytherin and Slytherin House took people whose blood was purest. But in a practical sense, we know that isn't true. We know many half and mixed bloods were allowed in that we know of, and I suspect beyond the mixed bloods we know of, there were probably many more.

I don't think the Sorting Hat picks people strictly on Pure blood, but on a certain Pure Blood mentality. As we know, there are extremely few true purebloods around. Plus this isn't the only Slytherin requirement, there is a degree of cunning, ambition, and similar traits. 

So, I think the conscious or subconscious sense of the superiority of magic blood is all that is needed. You need a 'pureblood' mind, but not necessarily a pureblood body. 

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 30 18:49:29 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:49:29 -0000
Subject: Loyalty to Draco & Patronage ...was: Re: Crabbengoyle / Socks / Duffers / ...
In-Reply-To: <hev355+kvmd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hf143p+qa02@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188550



--- , "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:
>
> Potioncat wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188488>:
> 
> << I never thought [Crabbe and Goyle] were so much loyal to Draco, as they were using him. >>
> 
> I always thought they were loyal to Draco, until that last scene in the Room of Requirement showed that Crabbe was (like the description of Peter Pettigrew) only attaching himself to the biggest bully available for his own benefit. Goyle, however, remained loyal to Draco even after Crabbe had stated that Draco was out of power. That may be because Goyle was too stupid to understand what Crabbe said.
> 
> 

bboyminn:

I think we are seeing something of a feudal Patronage system 
going on here. I suspect the senior Crabbe and Goyle are
subservient to the senior Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle benefit
because I think Lucius sends certain economic advantages their
way. I think Lucius benefits by having a couple of stooges to
do his dirty work for him.

I think this relationship continues with the junior members of
the respective families. Young Crabbe and Goyle befriend and
protect Draco on the assumption, that like their fathers,
when Draco takes over the family business, he too will take
care of them in exchange for certain favors. 

However, in the last ROR scene, Draco and his father have 
lost all their power. Since neither Draco or his father can
protect young Crabbe and Goyle, since Draco can not longer
give them the place of privilege and economic advantage they
were hoping for, they see no reason to remain loyal to Draco.

When you think about it, it is actually a very Sytherin
attitude they are displaying. 

I suspect, given Malfoy's wealth, they have a very large
Patronage network, that by the end of the book has pretty
much fallen apart. 

The feudal and patronage system was very much a case of being
loyal to the biggest bully on the block. When a bigger bully
came along, and it appeared he would dominate over the 
previous bully, you shift alliances. However, if you have
any hope of keeping your head, you don't want to side with
the wrong bully.

Crabbe and Goyle have seen a new bully capable of expanding
their wealth and pseudo-power beyond what Malfoy is now
capable of doing. New bully - new allegiance. 

Steve/bboyminn




From winterfell7 at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 30 21:39:47 2009
From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:39:47 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hev9ev+4tp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hf1e33+hr7i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188551

> Jean:
> <SNIP>
> It _does_ make a difference how a person is raised and/or treated by others
> when they grow up.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Of course it does, I have not said that it does not. I am disagreeing with the degree of how much it does. I do not believe that a person who became a traitor for example would have become one if he did not have it in him. I do not believe that a person who became a member of the gang of murderers and torturers would have become one if the person did not want to.
> 

Steve adds: 
As a psychotherapist I can agree that environment plays a part in a person's personality, especially during the formative years.  But I agree w/ Alla that there is a very definate component of free will, of personal choices for what you say and do that is independent of your upbringing.  You don't have to become the person your parents were for example unless you make a conscious choice to do so. Marietta for example was influenced to some degree by her mother's position at the MOM, and her mother's support of Umbridge's policies, but that didn't excuse her for betraying her schoolmates.  She made that choice all on her own in the end, with input from family and friends factoring in.  She had peer group pressures to go along w/ the DAD class members and not betray them as well, yet she ignored those influences and acted as she did.  No one did the Imperius curse on her to get her to go to Umbridge, she did that on her own and I blame Marietta, not her parents or Hermione for her actions.  

> Jean:
> <SNIP>
> For instance, someone who
> grew up in a home where there was a lot of hitting would notice fairly
> quickly that Snape only yells, and never hits--even the jar of cockroaches
> misses Harry, and that's after Harry does something extraordinarily rude
> (for which he never apologizes).
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, no, not just after Harry does something extraordinary rude. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude on the first lesson. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude on so many other instances and Snape still abused him verbally as far as I am concerned. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude when Snape took the book he was reading away from him. Harry did not do anything rude whatsoever when Snape destroyed his potion.
> 
> Sure, Snape usually yells, he is not a physical but verbal abuser as far as I am concerned
>

Steve adds:  I also agree that while Snape did physically abuse Harry or other students, he was indeed guilty of verbal abuse.  When he told Hermione for example "I see no difference", that was just plain nasty.  JKR has said in her interviews that she patterned Snape after a sadistic and really nasty real life person, and so I find no canon or common sense reason to dispute that Snape is verbally abusive, but not physically abusive, no matter how much one would subjectively want to believe so.

> Jean:
> Snape had a valid expectation of Harry
> starting up the 'Snivellus' nickname again, and laughing with his friends
> over it; the fact it didn't happen is something that Snape could not have
> expected. After all, even Lily used that nickname in the Worst Memory.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I completely disagree that it is a valid expectation that little boy who just arrives in the world unknown to him will use a rude nickname used by his father he never knew in part thanks to Snape dear.  He is a boy for crying out loud, an orphaned boy in part thanks to Snape. 
><SNIP>
I think Snape owed Harry so so much that this is a debt he should have been paying, I just think he should have been decent enough to treat the boy he helped rob of childhood better. I do not think protecting his life gave him any right to verbal abuse.
> 
> 
Steve adds:  I too see no justification for Snape expecting Harry to behave like his parents.  A really objective and fair teacher lets each new student start out w/ a clean slate and doesn't allow any preconceived expectations or predudices and biases about that child because of his/her parents or other family members influence their behaviour toward that student.  Harry is an innocent victom here and didn't deserve the verbal abuse he got from Snape.  I don't even consider Harry's responses in his first Potions class to be disrespectful or "cheeky". 

> Jean:
> <SNIP>
 You can turn someone bad if you treat them horribly
> enough; social workers have files and files of clients who were abused and
> then later turned up in the justice system. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I guess I just do not see the parallels how Neville and Peter were treated by their peers and I do not see the potential for treachery in Neville. Yes, there are abused people who cannot break cycle of abuse and there are those who can. And  I feel bad for all of them, but no, I do not think it is a justification for them to continue abusing others and that is what I feel Snape did to Harry. I do not think you can **turn somebody bad**,
><SNIP>

Alla
>
Steve adds:  And social workers and counselors like me also have files and files of clients who were abused and then later on turned out to be very law abiding and kind and considerate people.  Many avoid the pattern of abuse set forth unfortunately by people from their past.  Many remember how bad it felt to be abused and made good on their promises never to allow themselves to act that way towards others. Being abused doesn't always equal becoming an abuser.

In the epilogue, were we given any reasons to believe that Harry was abusive to his children? He didn't carry on the pattern of abuse of the Dursleys did he? NOT.  He by all we could tell was a kind and loving father, and not abusive at all.




From kckriger at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 29 13:36:28 2009
From: kckriger at yahoo.com (kckriger)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:36:28 -0000
Subject: Most scary/disturbing quotes and scenes from the HP books
In-Reply-To: <200911280653.nAS6rZ7K023045@post.portset.net>
Message-ID: <hettcs+5hh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188554

To me the most disturbing scene was where Harry went to face Voldemort and he knows that he must die to part a part of Voldemort's soul from his own. It shows his Christian brotherhood of giving up his own life to help others.

kckriger