From xellina at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 00:04:26 2009
From: xellina at gmail.com (Cassy Ferris)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:04:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon 
	Alley
In-Reply-To: <h9rski+ng0p@eGroups.com>
References: <h9rski+ng0p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <463f9ec00909301704k76e9cc4ex746c66a29b3751ee@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187878

> Questions:
> 1. Harry begins getting introduced to the wizarding world and its ways
from the beginning of this chapter with owl post and different money. When
you first read this chapter, what were some of the things that interested or
captivated you about the sights to which harry, and we, are introduced?
>
It's really hard to remember first impressions after almost ten years. I
remember that I was quite interested with Diagon alley shops, specifically
the bookshop (always wanted to read the textbooks of magic ) Also, I was
very curious (and still are) whether galleons are actual gold or they just
look golden. The thing that I really couldn't imagine was how the brick wall
becomes an arch (where are the rectangular bricks go?). Judging by how they
did it in the movie, I'm not the only one who can't really picture that.

> 2. This chapter is full of information that is either vital to the rest of
the series or foreshadows events to come or themes in the series. What jumps
out at you in this chapter that is important to the rest of the series?

Well, in a nutshell, everything. This chapter tells us about organization of
Hogwarts, really tells a lot about Vodemort, explains Quidditch, which also
will play important part. Also Harry makes a first enemy and gets a taste of
his fame.

<SNAP>


> 6. Harry and Draco have their first meeting in this chapter. We know that
this is a vital first meeting, affecting both boys for the rest of the
series. Thinking back to just this moment, without the knowledge you have
now, what did you think of this meeting? How could Harry and or Draco have
behaved differently to change the relationship between them for the future?
Could this have seriously affected events in the future?

I don't think that Draco could behave in a way that would make Harry like
him.  After all, in this scene Draco already was as friendly as he was
capable of - talked to Harry, asked him the usual, for first years,
questions about the House he wanted to get in and Quidditch - normal
conversation for magical children. One of the main reasons Harry hated the
conversation was because he had no idea what the other boy was talking
about. Had Draco talked about familiar things - TV or football, maybe Harry
would have been more willing to converse. I think, that even if Draco knew
who Harry was, he would still antoganized him by mentioning far too much
wizard-specific stuff.


>
> 7. Harry develops his anti-Slytherin feelings in this chapter, based on
Draco's behavior and Hagrid's line about there not being a witch or wizard
who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. From POA onward, we know this isn't
true. Did you believe the bad Slytherin theme at this point in the story?
Could Hagrid really not have known that people from all houses could become
followers of Voldemort? Are there any other instances of misinformation in
this chapter?
>
At that point I did believe in bad Slytherin (I kept taking things on face
value up to book 3, actually). However, in the retrospect, I think that
Hagrid blackened Slytherin on purpose, and he was told to by Dumbledore
(though perhaps indirectly).

<SNAP>

> 9 At the end of the chapter, Hagrid puts Harry on a train for home. For a
child who had never been to London and probably not far from Privet drive on
his own, how did he get back to the Dursleys?
>
We don't know the geography of Little Whinning, maybe the train station is
the next street from Private Drive and Harry only needs to go around the
corner to get home.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  1 02:08:59 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 02:08:59 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <h9rski+ng0p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha12vr+d0ih@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187879

Sherry:
6. Harry and Draco have their first meeting in this chapter. We know that this
is a vital first meeting, affecting both boys for the rest of the series. 
Thinking back to just this moment, without the knowledge you have now, what did
you think of this meeting? How could Harry and or Draco have behaved differently
to change the relationship between them for the future? Could this have
seriously affected events in the future?


Alla:

I cannot remember every detail of what I thought of course, but I do remember quite well that just as Harry did I extremely disliked Draco, still do, heh.  And I do not agree that Draco could not have behaved differently, especially if he sincerely wanted to be Harry's friend. He could have, I don't know, not insult Harry's parents, not to divide wizards and witches "our kind" and not our kind.  And of course we also know that he insulted first friend that Harry had. I don't care if some of his observations were true, really.  But sure, if they had became friends, it could have made for a different story, but to be honest with you, I am grateful every time when I think that author decided not to make them friends. Believe me,  sometimes I love good enemies turned friends stories very much be it romance or just friendship, but not between those two. IMO of course and totally opinion of somebody who cannot stand Draco Malfoy.

7. Harry develops his anti-Slytherin feelings in this chapter, based on Draco's
behavior and Hagrid's line about there not being a witch or wizard who went bad
that wasn't in Slytherin. From POA onward, we know this isn't true. Did you
believe the bad Slytherin theme at this point in the story? Could Hagrid really
not have known that people from all houses could become followers of Voldemort? 
Are there any other instances of misinformation in this chapter?

Alla:

Hm, yes I believed it, I always thought it is a possibility that good Slytherin would emerge, but I never believed that Slytherins would be just all really misunderstood. I always thought that initially this house started with the worse position than other three, just having really bad ideology from the moment of their foundation and this was something they needed to overcome.

As to why Hagrid did not say anything about people from other houses going bad, well I have no idea, but this is one of the reason why I cannot just accept Hagrid as never telling a lie, etc. Because here he is at least guilty of lying by omission.


8. Over dinner, Harry expresses his fears and insecurity to Hagrid, worrying
about what people will expect of him. What does this say about Harry?

Alla:

Oh that told me that Snape was an arrogant bastard, heh. I know, question was not about Snape, but every time when that bastard was running his mouth insulting Harry about him wanting to be new celebrity in this book I would think of that scene and just think oh shut up you bastard who thinks he figured this child out and in reality knows nothing and just thinks what he wants to think

Great questions, Sherry!





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  1 02:26:13 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 02:26:13 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <h9ogkb+fr71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha1405+oqji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187880

> Potioncat:
> But she has said that.
>  
> She's talked about the deleted side-story of Theo Nott and Draco talking at Draco's house. That was a scene intended--iirc--to show us Draco interacting with a true peer. Also there was Ron's cousin--Mafalda, Meleficent---something like that---who didn't make it into the book at all.
> 
> I don't have any specific interview in mind, they've all blurred at this point. But I don't see a contradition or untruth in saying she had it all planned out, yet having some things change as she went along. <SNIP>

Alla:

I think you can consider me convinced on this point, thanks for reminding me. She also talked about not being able to kill Arthur as planned, come to think of it.


Potioncat:
> Back to Lily and James being recruited, do we have either canon or interview that said that LV attempted or wanted to get them to join the DEs? I feel like we do, I just don't remember what it was.<SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, we do, I am not ready to give it up, I know I have read it, but when I went to Quick Quill to search, I could not figure out how to search their new layout, so no I cannot provide a link. I do not believe it is in the books though, I can be wrong.



> 
> Alla: 
> > Because Hagrid is clear IMO, he is asking if things happened around Harry when he was angry and upset and he IS upset when Dursleys do it to him, but nothing happens, you know?
> 
> Potioncat:
> I know we are commenting on our own opinions and reactions to canon, but I don't see an inconsistency. We know that magic does not solve all problems; nor is it perfect. Hagrid asks, "Never made things happen when you was scared or angry?" He isn't asking if things always happened. Think of Neville, apparantly he never had any accidental magic at all until he was dropped out a window; even though his family had started trying to trick it out of him.
> JMO

Alla:

Yeah, on this we have to agree to disagree it seems. I know that magic in the books does not serve all problems and not perfect. However Harry is not Neville and he does show his accidental magic pretty early, I feel that if accidental magic shows up when Harry is angry or upset, when Dursleys anger or upset him (and we know that they do), it will be very reasonable for his magic to act up.

I may not be so adamant in thinking that if not Aunt Marge. It took **one** accident of her badmouthing Harry's parents for Harry to get so angry that she got blown up. She did not need to starve him, lock him in the cupboard, threaten to smack him with the pan (was it Petunia's pan that Harry ducked from?), she did not need to do all that, just badmouthing Harry's parents was enough. In this book we see Petunia and Vernon badmouthing Harry's parents as well and nothing happened. I just do not find it consistent. JMO.

Alla.




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Thu Oct  1 02:29:01 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 02:29:01 -0000
Subject: Snape's Psycology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?
In-Reply-To: <h4aqah+fcn7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha145d+etan@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187881

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47" <montavilla47 at ...> wrote:
>
.>>> >> > 
> Montavilla47:
But DD doesn't not order Snape to swear an Unbreakable Vow. By making
that vow, Snape is endangering his cover--if Voldemort were to find out,
then it could cause Snape problems.

Snape could kill DD without swearing any vow. The vow only ties his hands.
Having pondered that vow for two years, the only practical reason I could
find for Snape to take the vow was to protect Draco from Voldemort. And it
was a big risk.

And it showed compassion for Narcissa Malfoy. Which was my point.

Nikkalmati

There is a whole lot I am tempted to say on this general topic, but I feel bad for jumping in so late.  I do want to comment on this point, because I have been contemplating this same point for nearly 3 years (and I blame JKR for leaving so many thing unclear).  I do think he feels compassion for Narcissa and maybe taking the vow helped her to sleep easy, but that is not enough reason to risk an untimely death.  Afterall, the vow could be broken accidentally and at any time.  It could have seriously disrupted DD's plan, if SS died first.  I also agree that if LV found out, he would have been angry and not at all convinced that SS was a loyal Death Eater.  I finally decided that SS took the vow because he hoped it would convince Draco to trust him and confide in him.  Wouldn't that have worked out nicely for SS and DD? The unfortunate fact is that Bella convinced Draco not to trust SS and the purpose of the vow went unfulfilled.

Nikkalmati (I hope this message doesn't break any rules.  I never can seem to get the darned computer to do it right).




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Oct  1 06:42:49 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 06:42:49 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <463f9ec00909301704k76e9cc4ex746c66a29b3751ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ha1j19+d4qt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187882

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cassy Ferris <xellina at ...> wrote:

> > 9 At the end of the chapter, Hagrid puts Harry on a train for home. For a
> child who had never been to London and probably not far from Privet drive on
> his own, how did he get back to the Dursleys?

Cassy:
> We don't know the geography of Little Whinning, maybe the train station is
> the next street from Private Drive and Harry only needs to go around the
> corner to get home.

Geoff:
JKR's geography places Little Whinging somewhere within a few miles of 
Heathrow on the west side of London and suggests that Privet Drive is a 
small residential area, possibly of the sort which sprang up in post-war 
years.

The route from Paddington strikes a fairly straight line out of the capital 
with suburban railway stations near to what were the centres of population 
when it was built.

I think , as someone pointed out, Harry would know the area anyway but 
needed to be reconciled to humping his luggage some distance on foot.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Oct  1 14:00:26 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:00:26 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <h9vh7t+109ik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha2clq+o14a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187883


> Potioncat:
 What did strike me though, is that Draco isn't exactly wrong about Hagrid. In fact, he's darn right. I'm sure he's repeating what he's heard from his parents, but I wonder how many others might share that feeling? 
<snip> 

> I clung to the theory of the Good Slytherin up to the last page of DH. I was sure we had been set up to form our own bit of prejudice just to have it knocked down. I think JKR did intend Slytherin to be the bad guys. Did anyone feel differently about Slytherin House at the end of DH with both Snape and Slughorn coming through for Hogwarts?

Pippin:
Just as Draco isn't exactly wrong about Hagrid and is darn right about some things, Hagrid wasn't exactly  wrong about Slytherin. But does that mean that Draco isn't prejudiced against Hagrid? Is it fair to make claims that can't be substantiated ("ends up setting fire to his bed") and say nothing of Hagrid's courage or his loyalty, his devotion to Hogwarts or the high regard which many other characters have for him?


It's much the same with Snape and Slughorn and the other Slytherins.  To disregard their courage and loyalty, to believe the worst (and only the worst) which is said about them and ignore their devotion to Hogwarts and the regard which many other characters have for them, is, IMO, to do just as Draco did.

I'm laughing over the idea that there's no reversal re Slytherin House. 

Just compare what Hagrid tells Harry about Slytherin with what Harry tells Al.

"Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly.  There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one."
--
"Albus Severus," said Harry quietly, so that nobody but Ginny could hear, and she was tactful enough to pretend to be waving to Rose, who was now on the train,  "you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."

"But *just say*--"

"--then Slytherin House will have gained an excellent student, won't it? It doesn't matter to us, Al. But if it matters to you, you'll be able to chose Gryffindor over Slytherin. The Sorting Hat takes your choice into account."

---

Hagrid's example of a Slytherin is Voldemort, Harry's is Snape. Hagrid says it's better to be a duffer than a Slytherin, because only Slytherins turn out to be dark wizards, Harry says the major consequence of Al being chosen for Slytherin will be that Slytherin gets an excellent student. Hagrid speaks "darkly" (ooh, a Tom Swifty), Harry speaks quietly, using reason, not fear. Harry, unlike Hagrid or Draco, respects Al's right to decide who the wrong sort are for himself.

The story doesn't end with anti-Slytherin feeling going away. But it does end with Harry speaking against it, whereas through most of the books Harry didn't see anti-Slytherin feeling as something that needed to be fought. 


Pippin










From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  1 14:21:21 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:21:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <ha1405+oqji@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha2dt1+6jg1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187884


Alla:  
...Harry is not Neville and he does show his accidental magic pretty early, I feel that if accidental magic shows up when Harry is angry or upset, when Dursleys anger or upset him (and we know that they do), it will be very reasonable for his magic to act up.

I may not be so adamant in thinking that if not Aunt Marge. It took **one** accident of her badmouthing Harry's parents for Harry to get so angry that she got blown up. She did not need to starve him, lock him in the cupboard, threaten to smack him with the pan (was it Petunia's pan that Harry ducked from?), she did not need to do all that, just badmouthing Harry's parents was enough. In this book we see Petunia and Vernon badmouthing Harry's parents as well and nothing happened. I just do not find it consistent. JMO.

Janelle:
I guess the way that I see it is that this magic is *accidental*, it doesn't happen every time that Harry gets upset (I imagine that things at the Dursleys' house would have been way more chaotic had that been the case).  The thing with Aunt Marge is different though.  You have to remember that Harry has been learning to use and control his magic for two years at this point.  I would argue that his magic is much stronger at this point than it was before he started school and so, when accidental magic does happen, it's also much stronger than previous examples.

I also want to point out that although his magic only acts up once while Marge is there, he sat through an entire week of being insulted and talked down to.  I think Marge's comments about his parents was just the needle that broke the camel's back, so to say.  He had been bottling up his feelings all week and just couldn't take it anymore.




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 16:45:23 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 12:45:23 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5,
 Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <19538521.1254405741430.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <19538521.1254405741430.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AC4DCA3.2010709@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187885

pippin_999 wrote:
>
>
> I clung to the theory of the Good Slytherin up to the last page of DH.

 
Of course there is the problem of Narcissa Black Malfoy.  I can't find 
any evidence that she was a Slytherin, but JKR does say in an online 
chat that while not a fully paid up Death Eater she sympathized with 
them wholeheartedly. But then--for her own selfish reasons--she pretends HP is dead so she can get to the castle to rescue Draco. 

She certainly has Slytherin tendencies and heritage. 


-- 

Rick Kennerly 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  1 19:41:54 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 19:41:54 -0000
Subject: Snape's Psycology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?
In-Reply-To: <ha145d+etan@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha30m2+g1mf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187886

> Nikkalmati:
> There is a whole lot I am tempted to say on this general topic, but I feel bad for jumping in so late. 

Zara:
It is never too late ro bring up Snape. In this poster's opinoin, anyway. <g>

> Nikkalmati:
> I do think he feels compassion for Narcissa and maybe taking the vow helped her to sleep easy, but that is not enough reason to risk an untimely death.  Afterall, the vow could be broken accidentally and at any time.  It could have seriously disrupted DD's plan, if SS died first. 

Zara:
While this is quite possibly true, have we any evidence that Snape knew this at the time he made the decision, in "Spinner's End"? That scene of HBP occured shortly after the DH scene in "The Prince's Tale" in which Snape contains the damage done to Albus by the Ring Horcrux's curse. In that conversation, the only plan Albus confides to Severus concerns Draco - to handle Voldemort's plan for Draco by having Snape do it instead. 

> Nikkalmati:
> I also agree that if LV found out, he would have been angry and not at all convinced that SS was a loyal Death Eater.  I finally decided that SS took the vow because he hoped it would convince Draco to trust him and confide in him. 

Zara:
This also makes sense as a reason. And fits in with that same DH conversation, in which Albus asks him to do precisely this. WE also see Snape try to convince Draco to confide in him in HBP (the conversation Harry overhears during Sluggie's party). 

> Nikkalmati:
> Wouldn't that have worked out nicely for SS and DD? The unfortunate fact is that Bella convinced Draco not to trust SS and the purpose of the vow went unfulfilled.

Zara:
I'm not sure what you mean here. Whay possibilities do you see for how it could have worked out differently?




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  1 20:18:02 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:18:02 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <h9vh7t+109ik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha32pq+a0sn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187887

> Potioncat:
> Ollivander also makes his "great things---terrible, yes, but great" comment about LV.  It made Harry think he didn't like Ollivander too much and it caused many of us to distrust him. This time, reading it in context, his real emphasis seems to be on Harry's potential. If these brother wands choose powerful wizards, and if Harry already has a reputation, then Ollivander would be right in expecting some powerful magic from Harry. Still, I can't imagine using the word "great" for anything LV did.

Zara:
And this general feeling about Ollivander and Voldemort's "great" accomplishments is echoed in DH, as well. Ollivander states that "the idea of the Dark Lord in possession of the Deathstick is, I must admit...formidable". And Harry recalls this scene of PS/SS we are discussing, and how even after all Ollivander has suffered from Voldmeort in the dungeon of Malfoy Manor, he is still torn between admiration and repulsion at Voldemort's power.

> Potioncat:
> My favorite is Arsenius Jigger and I'm ashamed to say I didn't catch it the first time.

Zara:
I never caught it until I read the Lithuanian translation of SS, personally, but it is also my favorite. This was after I bought the full set in that language, about a year after DH came out in English. The translator chose the wrong meaning of "Jigger" when s/he translated the name. (One of many complaints I have about that translation...)

> Potioncat:
>  I was wondering what would have happened if the boy being fitted had been someone else, who said nothing about "our" kind but still made those comments about Hagrid.

Zara:
Harry would still not have warmed to such a child. I think he already felt loyalty to Hagrid.

> Potioncat:
> I clung to the theory of the Good Slytherin up to the last page of DH. I was sure we had been set up to form our own bit of prejudice just to have it knocked down. I think JKR did intend Slytherin to be the bad guys. Did anyone feel differently about Slytherin House at the end of DH with both Snape and Slughorn coming through for Hogwarts?

Zara:
I did, in answer to Sherry's question, assume when reading PS/SS for the first time that Snape would be the villain and Slytherin would be the bad guys. This statement contributed to that feeling, but I think it took the additionl scenes of the unfriendly encounter with Draco on the train, the look Harry and Snape exchanged at the Welcoming feast, and Harry's dream about Draco and Snape and the high cold laugh to cement it for me. I remember reading "The Potions Master" and thinking to myself, "'tis a pity this guy is the Bad Guy of this kids' book, he's pretty cool". But I thought the end of PS/SS itself was sufficient refutation of Harry's prejudice. The Slytherin villain set up for us through his association with Slytherin, unpleasant manner, and implied fondness for the Dark Arts, was a good guy who protected both Harry and the Stone. End of story, and fair warning to readers about Harry's prejudice.

In answer to your question, Potoincat, I was absolutely convinced by DH that Slytherins as a group were not "bad guys". It's not just Slughorn and Snape and their roles in the final battle, to me anyway. Phineas, helping Snape by spying on the Trio so Snape could bring them help. Regulus, like Harry himself willing to die in the hope that as a result, when Voldemort meets his match, he will be mortal once more. Andromeda (Black) Tonks, opening her home to Harry/the Order as a refuge form the Death Eaters. Draco, failing to identify the Trio for the Death Eayters (and showing himself a brave and loyal friend to Goyle). Narcissa, hiding Harry's survival from Voldemort out of love for her son. To me, DH was an avalanche of revelations about Slytherins, capped off, of course, by the quotes from the Epilogue posted by Pippin in her response to your question.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  1 20:57:09 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:57:09 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha32pq+a0sn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha3535+h964@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187888




Zara:
<SNIP>
> In answer to your question, Potoincat, I was absolutely convinced by DH that Slytherins as a group were not "bad guys". It's not just Slughorn and Snape and their roles in the final battle, to me anyway. Phineas, helping Snape by spying on the Trio so Snape could bring them help. Regulus, like Harry himself willing to die in the hope that as a result, when Voldemort meets his match, he will be mortal once more. Andromeda (Black) Tonks, opening her home to Harry/the Order as a refuge form the Death Eaters. Draco, failing to identify the Trio for the Death Eayters (and showing himself a brave and loyal friend to Goyle). Narcissa, hiding Harry's survival from Voldemort out of love for her son. To me, DH was an avalanche of revelations about Slytherins, capped off, of course, by the quotes from the Epilogue posted by Pippin in her response to your question.
>

Alla:

I agree with everything you wrote in this paragraph, except your first sentence :)

Of course I agree that she showed plenty of Slytherins doing brave things in the name of good. However, did it do to me the reversal of the House as a group? No, unfortunately not. Somebody and I honest to goodness do not remember who it was wrote soon after DH that despite all of those contributions when time passes, what readers will remember the most about Slytherin will be that it was the house of Pansy Parkinson.

I did not want to agree with that at all. I mean, really Regulus's story touched me on very deep level and I adored that Slughorn came to fight. And even with Snape, even if I hate him for what he did to Harry, how can I argue with the fact that he fought for the Light?

But now when two years passed, when I am thinking about it, I am forced to agree and want to give that person his or her dues if this person steps forward of course.

The episode that for me packs the most emotional punch is disgusting Pansy wanting to sell Harry to Voldemort and a lot of her house supporting her, this picture just stands out the most vividly for this particular reader.  I think that showing Slytherin student **fighting** in the battle may have countered it, or not, I don't know. I have no problem with it whatsoever, but that's how I will remember Slytherin house first and foremost, the general idea of who they are did not change for me that much, even though I know this house had several members bravely fighting for Good, just as the general picture of who Gryffindors are did not change for me just because Peter was the member of that house.

JMO,

Alla






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Oct  2 01:08:05 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:08:05 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha3535+h964@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha3jpl+3nc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187889


> Alla:
> 
> I agree with everything you wrote in this paragraph, except your first sentence :)
> 
> Of course I agree that she showed plenty of Slytherins doing brave things in the name of good. However, did it do to me the reversal of the House as a group? No, unfortunately not. Somebody and I honest to goodness do not remember who it was wrote soon after DH that despite all of those contributions when time passes, what readers will remember the most about Slytherin will be that it was the house of Pansy Parkinson.<snip>
> But now when two years passed, when I am thinking about it, I am forced to agree and want to give that person his or her dues if this person steps forward of course.
> 
> The episode that for me packs the most emotional punch is disgusting Pansy wanting to sell Harry to Voldemort and a lot of her house supporting her, this picture just stands out the most vividly for this particular reader.  

Pippin:
It's a vivid picture, but it seems to owe more to your imagination  than Rowling's.

This is what JKR wrote:

Then a figure rose from the Slytherin table and he recognized Pansy Parkinson as she raised a shaking arm and screamed,"But he's there! Potter's *there*! Someone grab him!"

Before Harry could speak, there was a massive movement. The Gryffindors in front of him had risen and stood facing, not Harry, but the Slytherins. Then the Hufflepuffs stood, and almost at the same moment, the Ravenclaws, all of them with their backs to Harry, all of them looking toward Pansy instead, and Harry, awestruck and overwhelmed, saw wands emerging everywhere, pulled from beneath cloaks and from under sleeves.

"Thank you, Miss Parkinson," said Professor McGonagall in a clipped voice. "You will leave the Hall first with Mr. Filch. If the rest of your house could follow."

Harry heard the grinding of benches and then the sound of the Slytherins trooping out the other side of the Hall.

===

Harry doesn't see what is going on at the Slytherin table once the other students have risen and are standing in the  way.    But Harry  hears the benches grinding *after* McGonagall orders the Slytherins to leave. If the Slytherins had stood up in response to Pansy's plea to grab Harry or to support her as she faced all those wands, then the benches would have been pushed back already. 

A quick google search reveals 4.9 million hits for Slytherin Snape and 4.5 million hits for Slytherin Draco. There are 340,000 for Slytherin Pansy Parkinson, so I  doubt she is the character most associated with Slytherin in most people's minds. 

Pippin






From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Oct  2 01:29:38 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:29:38 -0000
Subject: Snape's Psycology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?
In-Reply-To: <ha30m2+g1mf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha3l22+nlp1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187890



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" <zgirnius at ...> wrote:
>
>> > Nikkalmati:
> > I do think he feels compassion for Narcissa and maybe taking the vow helped her to sleep easy, but that is not enough reason to risk an untimely death.  Afterall, the vow could be broken accidentally and at any time.  It could have seriously disrupted DD's plan, if SS died first. 
> 
> Zara:
> While this is quite possibly true, have we any evidence that Snape knew this at the time he made the decision, in "Spinner's End"? That scene of HBP occured shortly after the DH scene in "The Prince's Tale" in which Snape contains the damage done to Albus by the Ring Horcrux's curse. In that conversation, the only plan Albus confides to Severus concerns Draco - to handle Voldemort's plan for Draco by having Snape do it instead.

 Nikkalmati

I assume the characteristics of the UV were generally known in the Wizarding world.  As for DD's plan, I don't mean SS knew DD planned to have him kill DD, but SS knew DD was relying on him to keep the spell on DD at bay, to spy on LV, to protect Draco etc. - all of which would have been impossible to achieve if SS had failed in some way.  For example, if SS had not been close by and saved Draco's life when HP hit him with Secumsempra, SS (presumably) would have died. 

Nikkalmati
> 
> > Nikkalmati:
> > I also agree that if LV found out, he would have been angry and not at all convinced that SS was a loyal Death Eater.  I finally decided that SS took the vow because he hoped it would convince Draco to trust him and confide in him. 
> 
> Zara:
> This also makes sense as a reason. And fits in with that same DH conversation, in which Albus asks him to do precisely this. WE also see Snape try to convince Draco to confide in him in HBP (the conversation Harry overhears during Sluggie's party). 
> 
> > Nikkalmati:
> > Wouldn't that have worked out nicely for SS and DD? The unfortunate fact is that Bella convinced Draco not to trust SS and the purpose of the vow went unfulfilled.
> 
> Zara:
> I'm not sure what you mean here. Whay possibilities do you see for how it could have worked out differently?


Nikkalmati

I was thinking that if Draco had asked for help in fixing the cabinet, SS and DD could have prevented the plan from being carried out (by jinxing the cabinet at Borgin and Burke's or undoing whatever Draco did) or they could have been lying in wait when the DE's were admitted to the castle, and have prevented the whole scene on the Astronomy Tower.  SS might have been able to work on Draco to give himself up and ask protection or they could have led Draco to kill DD at the right time, while SS actually did the killing from the shadows (The Man who Shot Liberty Valence anyone?). Lots of possibilities if SS and DD know what Draco is doing.

Nikkalmati 





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  2 01:51:36 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:51:36 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha3jpl+3nc7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha3mb8+9dfu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187891



Alla:

<SNIP>

> > The episode that for me packs the most emotional punch is disgusting Pansy wanting to sell Harry to Voldemort and a lot of her house supporting her, this picture just stands out the most vividly for this particular reader.  
> 
> Pippin:
> It's a vivid picture, but it seems to owe more to your imagination  than Rowling's.
> 
> This is what JKR wrote:
><SNIP canon, go upthread to read it> ===
> 
> Harry doesn't see what is going on at the Slytherin table once the other students have risen and are standing in the  way.    But Harry  hears the benches grinding *after* McGonagall orders the Slytherins to leave. If the Slytherins had stood up in response to Pansy's plea to grab Harry or to support her as she faced all those wands, then the benches would have been pushed back already. 
> 

Alla:

No, I do not believe it does. I did not make up the story about Pansy wanting to give Harry to Voldemort and that is what I was talking about. I totally understand what you are saying about interpreting it as her house not supporting her, but I will go with the simpler one here, without thinking about sounds from the benches. Harry sees wands towards him, that is enough for me. Maybe Harry did not hear the earlier sound of the benches and some people get up already and some did not do so yet. And even if you are correct (which I do not agree with) and what JKR **really** meant here was for us to deduct that Slytherins really did not support Pantsy and she was a lone wolf or something, my point was that on its face picture is vivid and damning IMO.


Pippin:
> A quick google search reveals 4.9 million hits for Slytherin Snape and 4.5 million hits for Slytherin Draco. There are 340,000 for Slytherin Pansy Parkinson, so I  doubt she is the character most associated with Slytherin in most people's minds. 


Alla:

Well, I specifically talked about *this particular reader*, that means that I talked about my reactions, not everybody else"s.

And also I was not saying that Pantsy is the character most assosiated with Slytherin's in my mind either. Do you know who is such character for me? It is Draco, absolutely and most definitely. He was is and will be a face of Slytherin for me. I am afraid his baby steps towards being a decent human being do not count for me as an emotional punch of the reversal.

And Snape? Snape is a face of Slytherin? Snape to whom Dumbledore regretfully pronounces that maybe they Sort too soon? I thought that was Dumbledore being an ass, but I think since he is JKR's mouthpiece, author went out of her way in DH to show that Snape managed to NOT be like people from his house.

Let me be clear, I am not talking about any of Snape's actions per se, but only him as reflection of his house. I maintain that the idea of DH that he is not, even if he wanted to be in Slytherin.

I mean, Harry praises him for his courage, for his courage of all things. We are shown that Snape over the years obtained *saving people thing* LOLOLOL, just as certain Gryffindor.

Oh, no I am afraid I cannot measure Slytherin house by Snape at all.

To go back to Pantsy, her **action** for me is the action JKR wants me to remember the nowadays house Slytherin by. I saw no Regulus or Andromeda in this generation of Slytherins, only Pantsy Parkinsons and Dracos.

JMO,

Alla




From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  2 11:21:51 2009
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Joey)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:21:51 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <4AC4DCA3.2010709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ha4nof+f29h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187892

<snip>
> Rick:
> Of course there is the problem of Narcissa Black Malfoy.  I can't find any evidence that she was a Slytherin

Joeydebs:
Slughorn mentioned that all the Blacks save Sirius were in his house suggesting that Narcissa was a Slytherin. I don't have time to find the exact book quote but it was in HBP.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Oct  2 12:58:44 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:58:44 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha4nof+f29h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha4te4+5tpn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187893

 
> Joeydebs:
> Slughorn mentioned that all the Blacks save Sirius were in his house suggesting that Narcissa was a Slytherin. I don't have time to find the exact book quote but it was in HBP.
>
Potioncat:
Draco also says that all his family have been in Slytherin.
We know he has relatives who weren't in Slytherin, but those relatives weren't family.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  2 16:37:00 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:37:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <ha1405+oqji@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha5a7c+54fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187894

Alla wrote:
><snip> 
> I feel that if accidental magic shows up when Harry is angry or upset, when Dursleys anger or upset him (and we know that they do), it will be very reasonable for his magic to act up.
> 
> I may not be so adamant in thinking that if not Aunt Marge. It took **one** accident of her badmouthing Harry's parents for Harry to get so angry that she got blown up. She did not need to starve him, lock him in the cupboard, threaten to smack him with the pan (was it Petunia's pan that Harry ducked from?), she did not need to do all that, just badmouthing Harry's parents was enough. In this book we see Petunia and Vernon badmouthing Harry's parents as well and nothing happened. I just do not find it consistent. JMO.
>
Carol responds:
I certainly agree that JKR is inconsistent in many places and sometimes outright contradictory. She doesn't think out certain details (e.g., how Harry got home with his armload of purchases, including a caged owl). On occasion, she's completely illogical (how, for example, can Bill in OoP use his wand to cast Evanesco when both arms are overflowing with scrolls of parchment?)

But in this instance, I think we're meant to see a great difference between Harry before he learns that he's a wizard on his eleventh birthday, the downtrodden, humble Harry who magically escapes from harm and embarrassment but seldom stands up for himself and never acts like a bully himself and the increasingly angry Harry who, by the time he meets Sirius Black, actually wants to kill him. Harry at thirteen, even in the incident with Aunt Marge, has learned that he's magically powerful (maybe not in comparison with Dumbledore or Snape, but certainly compared with the Muggle Dursleys). He has destroyed Diary!Riddle and killed a Basilisk. He's growing in confidence, power, and knowledge, especially with regard to his parents, whom he still idolizes, not knowing that his father was "an arrogant little berk," to use his friend Sirius's term. His anger is also growing, against Voldemort and anything to do with him on the one hand and against the Dursleys, who lied to him about his parents and tried to squash the magic out of him on the other. That the hated Aunt Marge, herself a Dursley (though she doesn't know he's a wizard and has bullied him for other reasons), would dare to insult his parents is more than he can tolerate.

I've also suggested that as Voldemort becomes stronger, Harry's anger becomes stronger, influenced by the soul bit. He becomes less humble, gentle, and meek as the series progresses--but, fortunately, never quite turns into James (though hexing the helpless Filch in HBP comes close).

At any rate, I don't think it's surprising that his accidental magic changes as Harry grows older from merely defensive or harmless retribution (the teacher's blue wig) to angry retaliation like the "blowing up" of Aunt Marge, which resembles the tree branch falling on Petunia. Neither is intentional, but both reflect anger and a desire to punish the interfering and insulting Muggle.

Carol, who thinks that PoA Harry is exactly halfway between SS/PS Harry and OoP Harry in terms of personality, power, and, especially, anger




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  2 17:35:27 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:35:27 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha3535+h964@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha5dkv+cqia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187895

Alla wrote:
> The episode that for me packs the most emotional punch is disgusting Pansy wanting to sell Harry to Voldemort and a lot of her house supporting her, this picture just stands out the most vividly for this particular reader.  <snip>

Carol responds:

I don't recall "a lot of her House supporting her" or even a single Slytherin doing so. They're immediately turned upon by the Gryffindors, followed by the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, who point their wands at them, and summarily dismissed as a group by McGonagall, who has already told Slughorn, without cause (other than, perhaps, her knowledge of Draco's involvement in DD's death, her view of Snape as a "murderer," and her awareness that several other Slytherins are children of Death Eaters) that she and the other staff members will kill any Slytherin student who fights on Voldemort's side.

I do think that Harry should have recognized, say, Theo Nott or Blaise Zabini in the crowd that followed Slughorn to confirm for the reader that the group contained Slytherin students. But the worst that we can say of the Slytherins who are present in that scene is that one student, Pansy Parkinson, assumed that they should turn over Harry to Voldemort to save themselves. The other Slytherins neither agreed nor disagreed and obeyed McGonagall's order to follow Slughorn to safety. We know that Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle later fell out of line and Disillusioned themselves (followed by the incident in the MoM), but we have no indication (other than Voldemort's unreliable word, which is certainly false regarding Crabbe and Goyle, and is countered by Phineas Nigellus's statement that "Slytherin played its part" *against Voldemort) that the Slytherins did anything except what McGonagall told them to do--follow Slughorn and go home--exactly like the under-age students from all four Houses (and a few older students from other Houses like Zacharias Smith).

I agree that the general impression of Slytherin that JKR created was unfavorable, but it was also filtered through Gryffindor eyes (every person who said bad things about Slytherin was a Gryffindor, from Hagrid to Percy) and colored by Harry's own encounters with Draco and Snape, including his mistaken assumption that Snape caused his scar to hurt. But I thought (and still think) that the depiction of most Slytherin students as ugly (a Quidditch player who looks like he has Troll blood, the thuggish CrabbenGoyle), the haglike Millicent Bulstrode) was overkill and exaggeration comparable to the exaggerated descriptions of Hagrid's hands and feet. (One of these days, I'll look up other instances of hyperbole in the books--it's a favorite device of JKR's, along with puns).

And, for me, the overall impression was countered by as sense of Draco's naivete (he's repeating what his parents have told him) and by the intriguing mystique of Severus Snape, whose loyalties, Quirrell informs us, lie not with Voldemort but with Dumbledore. So if Snape is not as bad as he seems (the misunderstanding between him and Harry is mutual), it seemed likely to me that Slytherin, too, is not as bad as it is painted (with the exception of a few students, notably not including Theo Nott or Blaise Zabini, who become members of the Inquisitorial Squad).

For me, "Spinner's End" and HBP in general provided the first hint that even Death Eaters and other Voldemort supporters had a human side (Narcissa's love for her son and loyalty to her husband; Draco's fears for his family and hesitation on the Tower). Even Bellatrix cares about "Cissy" (but not as much as she adores Voldemort).

The roles of the Slytherins who opposed Voldemort in small and large ways--and even the genial if self-centered character of Slughorn himself--indicate to me that Epilogue!Harry is right. Slytherin may be connected with Voldemort, but in other respects, it's just another Hogwarts House, with its own heroes. Without the malign influence of Voldemort, with the DEs imprisoned or dead and no longer recruiting, all that remains is to require all students to take a Charity-Burbage-style Muggle Studies class and root out prejudice against "Mud-Bloods" and Muggles. Let Slytherin "play its part," not isolated from the other Houses. Let bygones be bygones.

The HP books show Harry's preconceptions and prejudices falling away one by one--Sirius Black, Neville, Luna, Grawp, Scrimgeour, Regulus Black, Snape--and his idealized views of the "good guys"--his father, Sirius Black, Dumbledore--reshaped and made more realistic, allowing for flaws and minus the idealization.

Granted, certain characters (Hagrid on the good side, Umbridge on the bad) require no reexamination on Harry's part or the readers, but the whole idea of the books is that, Voldemort and a few cardboard characters excepted, no one is wholly good or evil and human beings are complex creatures with multiple motivations. Even the Malfoys can change, becoming, if not good, at least neutral and opposed to Voldemort.

Carol, who hopes that the revised edition of DH will make it clear that Pansy Parkinson is not the representative Slytherin

 





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  2 17:47:41 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:47:41 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha3mb8+9dfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha5ebt+m0mv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187896

Alla wrote:
> <snip> Harry sees wands towards him, that is enough for me. <snip>

Carol responds:

You snipped the canon, so I'll put it back in before respondsing,

"Then the Hufflepuffs stood, and almost at the same moment, the Ravenclaws, all of them with their backs to Harry, all of them looking toward Pansy instead, and Harry, awestruck and overwhelmed, saw wands emerging everywhere, pulled from beneath cloaks and from under sleeves."

The wands in this passage are not Slytherin wands pointing at Harry; they're Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw wands pointing at the Slytherins. Or that's how I read it. 

Carol, doubting that Harry would have been "awestruck and overwhelmed" by wands pointing *at* him





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  3 07:21:38 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 07:21:38 -0000
Subject: chapt disc: SS/PS, ch 5, Diagon Alley-Pansy: Pro-Voldemort or Anti-Harry???
In-Reply-To: <ha3mb8+9dfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha6u22+qjbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187897

---  "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> > > The episode that for me packs the most emotional punch is disgusting Pansy wanting to sell Harry to Voldemort ...
> > 
> > Pippin:
> > It's a vivid picture, but it seems to owe more to your 
> > imagination  than Rowling's.
> > 
> > This is what JKR wrote:
> ><SNIP canon, go upthread to read it> ===
> > 
> > Harry doesn't see what is going on at the Slytherin table 
> > once the other students have risen and are standing in the
> > way. But Harry  hears the benches grinding *after* 
> > McGonagall orders the Slytherins to leave. ...
> > 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, I do not believe it does. I did not make up the story about Pansy wanting to give Harry to Voldemort and that is what I was talking about. ...
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> > A quick google search reveals 4.9 million hits for Slytherin Snape and 4.5 million hits for Slytherin Draco. There are 340,000 for Slytherin Pansy Parkinson, ...
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, I specifically talked about *this particular reader*, 
> that means that I talked about my reactions, not everybody 
> else"s.
> 
> ...
> 
> To go back to Pantsy, her **action** for me is the action JKR
> wants me to remember the nowadays house Slytherin by. I saw 
> no Regulus or Andromeda in this generation of Slytherins, 
> only Pantsy Parkinsons and Dracos.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>

I think you both make good points and I do see that Alla was
speaking in a limited context.

But we are assuming the context in which Pansy acted. Not that
it makes much difference in the end though. We are assuming
Pansy's goal is victory for Voldemort, but it could have been
simply 'Get rid of Potter so I don't get killed'. 

The motive could have been self-preservation rather than anti-
Harry or pro-Voldemort. It could very well be that if the war 
had been about Draco, she would have given Draco up in an 
instant to save her own hide. 

Either way, it is still a very Slytherin-ish thing to do. But
I don't think we can say for certain that her motivation is
pro-Voldemort or anti-Harry, though that certain is the 
ultimate effect of her actions.  

Sorry, just a thought I had.

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  3 07:32:02 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 07:32:02 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley: Pansy Again
In-Reply-To: <ha5dkv+cqia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha6uli+pch1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187898

---  "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Alla wrote:
> > The episode that for me packs the most emotional punch is disgusting Pansy wanting to sell Harry to Voldemort and a lot of her house supporting her, this picture just stands out the most vividly for this particular reader.  <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> I don't recall "a lot of her House supporting her" or even a single Slytherin doing so. They're immediately turned upon by the Gryffindors, followed by the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, who point their wands at them, and summarily dismissed as a group by McGonagall, who has already told Slughorn, without cause (...) that she and the other staff members will kill any Slytherin student who fights on Voldemort's side.

bboyminn:

Slightly off on a tangent here, but else where in this thread
I suggested that perhaps Pansy's motivation was not Pro-Voldemort
or even Anti-Harry, it is pure self-preservation. Her underlying
thought and motivation is, 'Get me out of here, I don't want to
die'. 

I suspect the same motivation lead the other Slytherin's in 
their totally unnoteworthy support for Pansy. They had no 
interest in a fight of 3 to 1. Nor did they fancy staying
trapped in the castle while a battle raged around them.

Certainly if they were going to fight, they were going to fight
from a point of advantage, not a point of huge disadvantage.

I have this vision of all the Slytherin sitting at the table
with their head down hoping Pansy will sit down and shut up
before she gets them all killed. 

Their goal in that moment is self-preservation. Once they 
are outside and safe, then they have the luxury of how, if,
when, where, and on whose side they will fight. 

How very very Slytherin of them.

Steve/bboyminn




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  3 13:57:01 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 13:57:01 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha5dkv+cqia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha7l7d+usmf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187899





> Alla wrote:
> > The episode that for me packs the most emotional punch is disgusting Pansy wanting to sell Harry to Voldemort and a lot of her house supporting her, this picture just stands out the most vividly for this particular reader.  <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> I don't recall "a lot of her House supporting her" or even a single Slytherin doing so. <SNIP of the whole post>

Alla:

I interpret that they did. When Gryffindors had risen in front of Harry they are facing Slytherins, not Pansy. To me that implies that Slytherins already stood up with their wands out, I think that if it was only Pansy, that's what JKR would have written.

This however was not quite my point. As I said, I believe that at least many Slytherins supported her, however what I was talking about is that to me as a reader two years after the book was out, Pansy's betrayal is the most memorable picture that packs a huge punch. I am not talking about Snape here and not going to discuss his actions, because whether one is a fan of Snape or not, as I attempted to argue upthread I think author was showing that Snape is not a typical Slytherin and thus I cannot judge Slytherins based on Snape. IF he was a typical Slytherin, I would totally agree that complete reversal of Slytherin loyalties was shown.

I would LOVE to judge Slytherins based on Regulus, on Andromeda, on Slughorn, but I don't know how to explain it, they are too remote for me from Slytherins who were present in the battle and to me the battle is what mattered.

I am no fan of Draco, far from it, but I think that if author indeed wanted to show a reversal, she needed to show more of him doing better things than hesitating to recognise Harry and Co, and saving Goyle.

Alla wrote:
> <snip> Harry sees wands towards him, that is enough for me. <snip>

Carol responds:

You snipped the canon, so I'll put it back in before respondsing,
<SNIP>

Alla:

Um, yes I did, everybody reads the whole thread before replying to my post so no need for me to leave it in if it can be read upthread. I hope you are no implying that I did something wrong here.





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 12:17:44 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:17:44 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha4nof+f29h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha4r18+8pbd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187900

> > Rick:
> > Of course there is the problem of Narcissa Black Malfoy.  I can't find any evidence that she was a Slytherin
>
> Joeydebs:
> Slughorn mentioned that all the Blacks save Sirius were in his house suggesting that Narcissa was a Slytherin. I don't have time to find the exact book quote but it was in HBP.
>

Of course.  Thanks.

I've always read a minor theme in the books, particularly the end of DH, of the house system being somewhat detrimental and overly deterministic: you ARE what your house represents.  This is good for, say, Neville, who gains courage and confidence as G, but bad for most Slytherins and HW since it reinforces undesirable traits and gang activity.

In the lull before the final battle and after the final battle JKR makes a point of writing about how everyone was mixed sitting in the great hall, among the houses and the generations, brought together in the greater cause.

Rick





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Oct  3 16:01:21 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 16:01:21 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha7l7d+usmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha7sgh+hfmv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187901


> 
> Alla:
> 
> I interpret that they did. When Gryffindors had risen in front of Harry they are facing Slytherins, not Pansy. To me that implies that Slytherins already stood up with their wands out, I think that if it was only Pansy, that's what JKR would have written.

Pippin:


You mean, Gryffindors would never draw their wands on people who were sitting quietly and not threatening them at the time? I think that particular assumption got toasted in SWM.

Canon doesn't even say that Pansy drew her wand. She points a "shaking arm" at Harry -- if she had a wand in it, she wouldn't have said, "Somebody grab him!" -- she'd have used a curse.

JKR arranges things so that Harry can't see what's going on. If he could see the Slytherins, then they could see him, and Harry would not feel protected.

Alla: 
> This however was not quite my point. As I said, I believe that at least many Slytherins supported her, however what I was talking about is that to me as a reader two years after the book was out, Pansy's betrayal is the most memorable picture that packs a huge punch.

Pippin:

But it seems to only pack that punch because you've embellished it.

 What I see, two years on,  is a mob overreacting to the provocation of a hysterical teenage girl --  Salem all over again, if you think about it. I agree, when you read the scene, it doesn't feel like that's what's happening. But then, the people in Salem didn't think they were over-reacting either. It only became clear in hindsight, with logic and perspective that were missing at the time.

Harry feels awed and overwhelmed as if the Gryffindors were standing between him and Voldemort, when all that's really there is Pansy Parkinson, who would hardly be able to aim a curse with her shaking arm even if she had a wand in it. 

The image of Slytherin that packs the strongest punch for me is Draco in the RoR, reaching up the hand that Harry once rejected, and Harry swooping down to grasp it. Is there something that a decent human being would have done to rescue Goyle that Draco didn't do?

I agree that JKR never makes Draco into someone you'd *want* to treat with kindness and respect. And people who were hoping for that as the conclusion were doubtless disappointed. 

But I've never heard even the most rabid anti-Slytherin poster allege that Draco wasn't worth saving. 

And that, IMO, is JKR's point, a much more difficult one than the one she could have made by having Draco and Harry be friends.  She wants us to see that it just doesn't makes sense to go out of our way to protect people and yet not treat them with kindness and respect, whether we want to be friends with them or not. Not unless the Dursleys are our idea of how to behave.  

Alla:
 I am not talking about Snape here and not going to discuss his actions, because whether one is a fan of Snape or not, as I attempted to argue upthread I think author was showing that Snape is not a typical Slytherin and thus I cannot judge Slytherins based on Snape. IF he was a typical Slytherin, I would totally agree that complete reversal of Slytherin loyalties was shown.

Pippin:

It's not a complete reversal, any more than Draco's view of Hagrid gets  reversed. It is shown to be one-sided and simplistic.

I agree that Dumbledore was being an ass. That is how we know he was honest. When he's kind and supportive, you can bet he is up to something with a capital Up.:) 

He's saying that emotionally immature students are disproportionately attracted to Slytherin, and maybe that wouldn't happen so much if students were sorted at an older age.  But it's a one-sided view of the House. 

Slytherins fight with their brains, as Snape told James, which sometimes means they have to go away and think rather than rush into battle. It doesn't always mean they are too immature to think of anyone but themselves.

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  3 16:22:42 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 16:22:42 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha7sgh+hfmv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha7toi+11h5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187902

>
> Alla:
>
> I interpret that they did. When Gryffindors had risen in front of Harry they
are facing Slytherins, not Pansy. To me that imply that Slytherins already
stood up with their wands out, I think that if it was only Pansy, that's what
JKR would have written.

Pippin:


You mean, Gryffindors would never draw their wands on people who were sitting
quietly and not threatening them at the time? I think that particular assumption
got toasted in SWM. <SNIP>

Alla:

No, I mean that I read this scene differently from you. You seem to think that Gryffindors drew their wands at Slytherins who were sitting quietly and were minding their own business, and I think that they drew their wands at Slytherins who stood up to support Pansy. 


Alla:
> This however was not quite my point. As I said, I believe that at least many
Slytherins supported her, however what I was talking about is that to me as a
reader two years after the book was out, Pansy's betrayal is the most memorable
picture that packs a huge punch.

Pippin:

But it seems to only pack that punch because you've embellished it. <SNIP>

Alla:

If you call different interpretation embellishment then sure I embellished it.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
I agree that JKR never makes Draco into someone you'd *want* to treat with
kindness and respect. And people who were hoping for that as the conclusion were
doubtless disappointed.

But I've never heard even the most rabid anti-Slytherin poster allege that Draco
wasn't worth saving.

And that, IMO, is JKR's point, a much more difficult one than the one she could
have made by having Draco and Harry be friends. She wants us to see that it
just doesn't makes sense to go out of our way to protect people and yet not
treat them with kindness and respect, whether we want to be friends with them or
not. Not unless the Dursleys are our idea of how to behave. <SNIP>


Alla:

And I do not disagree with a single word that you wrote here. Yes, Draco is worth saving, yes I know that she wants to show that all people are needed to be treated with kindness and respect.   My point is that all of this is not enough for me to not think of Slytherin as a group as good guys. They are just not there yet in my opinion. That is not to say that some Slytherins were not heroes, of course they were. But whether author intended it or not, some things overshadow for me everything else.

Draco saving Goyle is nice, really, admirable and all that. However that does not make me think of Draco as decent human being anymore than I would think of Lucius and Narcissa as decent human beings just because they love their son.

Look,  say for example Draco would have said NO, it is not Trio in the Manor. This is ALL I would have needed. I did not need Draco to fight along Harry in the battle, really, I did not need or want them to become friends. But yeah, to see that he changed I needed more than hesitation. I needed some action on his part and saving somebody who was his friend all along is not enough for me.  

In fact, needed is probably the wrong word. I only say need if the goal was to convince me of said change, I could care less if Draco would have stayed the same as he always was.



JMO,

Alla







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  3 16:45:35 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 16:45:35 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha7sgh+hfmv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha7v3f+nsbk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187903

Pippin:

I agree that Dumbledore was being an ass. That is how we know he was honest.
When he's kind and supportive, you can bet he is up to something with a capital
Up.:)

He's saying that emotionally immature students are disproportionately attracted
to Slytherin, and maybe that wouldn't happen so much if students were sorted at
an older age. But it's a one-sided view of the House.

Slytherins fight with their brains, as Snape told James, which sometimes means
they have to go away and think rather than rush into battle. It doesn't always
mean they are too immature to think of anyone but themselves.


Alla:

I am not sure I understand, do you think that author agrees with Dumbledore here or not? Because this is book 7 and not book 1 and I would think that if the idea was to show that Slytherin house is just as the same as any other house in Hogwarts and has his good qualities and bad qualities, it is really strange to make Dumbledore say it.

I mean, really what exactly IS wrong to be attracted to house of people with brains? What exactly IS wrong of being attracted to the house of people with great ambition in life?

It seems to me that if the idea was to show that those qualities are what determines who Slytherins really are and not purebloods rule, everybody else can go to hell and die, I would think that it is totally all right to be attracted to Slytherin?

Why do you think Dumbledore thinks it is bad for students to want to be in Slytherin if not because this ideology is what House was established on and ambition and brains are only good as long as they accept this idea?







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  3 19:32:14 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 19:32:14 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha7l7d+usmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha88ru+e8gd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187904


> Alla earlier:
> > <snip> Harry sees wands towards him, that is enough for me. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> You snipped the canon, so I'll put it back in before respondsing,
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Um, yes I did, everybody reads the whole thread before replying to my post so no need for me to leave it in if it can be read upthread. I hope you are no implying that I did something wrong here.
>
Carol responds:
I only meant that the canon you snipped was relevant to my post, so I put it back in. I was trying to save people the trouble of going upthread (which is hard to do the way Yahoo is currently set up) by requoting the relevant portion in my post. My point was not that you did anything wrong but that the canon, as I read it, indicates that Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff were pointing their wands at Slytherin (automatically assuming that they agreed with Pansy), not the other way around.

BTW, I agree with Steve (bboyminn) that Pansy's motive was simple self-preservation, wanting the school to capitulate to Voldemort's demand out of fear of being slaughtered rather than any strong pro-Voldemort or anti-Harry sentiment (though those may have been secondary motives). After all, LV has just said, in essence, that if they give up Harry, no one will be hurt and if they don't, everyone will be killed. She appears to be taking him at his word.

As for the other Slytherins, there's no indication that any of them drew their wands. They just followed McG's order to follow Slughorn to safety. Again, their motive seems to be self-preservation. If any of them felt loyalty to the school and wanted to fight to save Hogwarts, how could they have said so under such circumstances? No one trusted them.

Carol, who thinks that, as usual, Gryffindor (especially Harry and McGonagall) assumed the worst regarding Slytherin, as did the students in the other houses, without necessarily being correct




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  3 19:42:33 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 19:42:33 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha4r18+8pbd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha89f9+d9li@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187905



Rick wrote:
<snip>
> In the lull before the final battle and after the final battle JKR makes a point of writing about how everyone was mixed sitting in the great hall, among the houses and the generations, brought together in the greater cause.
> 
> Rick
>
Carol responds:
Which works as an indication of House unity only if we believe that the Slytherins followed Slughorn into the battle. Otherwise, it's still us (Gryffindor and its allises) against them (Slytherin). For all we know, the humiliated and neutralized Malfoys may be the only Slytherins present. Crabbe, of course, is dead (and bad); the injured Goyle is not mentioned, nor are any Slytherin students who may have joined in the battle. (Yes, Harry is focused on his friends and on getting away from the hubbub, but, still, JKR might have noted at least Blaise Zabini or some other Slytherin that Harry knows by sight sitting with, say, Ernie Macmillan.

Carol, who wants to believe that Phineas Nigellus was referring to Slytherin students as well as to Slughorn and the unfortunately dead Snape when he said that "Slytherin played its part" but finds the evidence inadequate




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 17:54:28 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 17:54:28 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha4r18+8pbd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha834k+kebg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187906

Rick:
> Of course.  Thanks.
>
> I've always read a minor theme in the books, particularly the end of
DH, of the house system being somewhat detrimental and >overly
deterministic: you ARE what your house represents.  This is good for,
say, Neville, who gains courage and confidence as G, >but bad for most
Slytherins and HW since it reinforces undesirable traits and gang
activity.
>

Rick:
Now that I'm rereading OOP, Chapter 11, The Sorting Hat's New Song, it
makes this point explicitly.  So much for my reading something into the
subtext, I guess.

******
Rick, could you please contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space). Thanks!




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 20:38:17 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 20:38:17 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha89f9+d9li@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha8cnp+8rl6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187907

> Carol, who wants to believe that Phineas Nigellus was referring to Slytherin students as well as to Slughorn and the unfortunately dead Snape when he said that "Slytherin played its part" but finds the evidence inadequate
>

Inadequate?  Invisible would be better.  Slytherinn played it's part, yes, but not in a good way.

Slughorn--like LV, Malfoy et. al--prefers the role of puppet master, always pulling the strings but remaining for the most part unseen.

He gets credit for (slipping out?) to raise the alarm and recruiting alumni to the fight, and even screws his courage to the sticking point to stand and fight LV with McG and Shacklebolt only when it's becoming clear the forces of good stand of chance of carrying the day.

Narcissa M. acts to save her son, not defeat LV and the Death Eaters.

Draco's screwed up.

Phineas Nigellus is a Black and the least popular headmaster HWs has ever had.  Sounds as though he's rewriting history to me.

Rick.



From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Oct  4 03:25:17 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 03:25:17 -0000
Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?
In-Reply-To: <h5j1tc+g6kb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ha94it+8hjj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187908



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214@> wrote:
> 
> 
> > I fully believe that if Snape of these days would have 
> > gotten a second chance to replay that night with Dumbledore 
> > he would have definitely asked Dumbledore to save James 
> > and Harry as well, without any nagging from Dumbledore that is.
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> I still think we keep blaming Snape for the wrong thing here. We keep saying he didn't ask DD to save James and Harry together with Lily. Is it true though? Snape came to DD with a warning and a request. However, we don't know what that request was, because Snape simply didn't get to it, as DD interrupted him with questions. 
> 
> How do we know what exactly Snape intended to ask? How do we know he would have said "save Lily, don't mind her husband and son"? I suppose he could have, but how can we be sure if we are not Legilimenses :-)?
> 
> Note that DD doesn't exactly blame Snape for asking him to save only Lily. How can he, if Snape didn't ask anything at all yet? IMO, DD blames Snape for asking LV to spare only Lily, not James and Harry as well, which is an unfair and unreasonable demand. To ask LV such a thing would have been a suicide (although a "fine gesture", to use Snape's own words :-)), and what good would it have done? They would have been all dead, Snape as well as the Potters. 
> 
> Don't misunderstand me, I know that Snape didn't care about James and Harry, but we can't blame him for not asking DD to protect them, because we can't prove that he didn't intend to ask. I reread this dialogue many times, and I still can't see anything showing that Snape only asked to save Lily. This is just my opinion that I've wanted to express for quite some time :-).
>


Nikkalmati

I wonder what was it that happened here before the meeting in this remote location on the hilltop?  Snape is portrayed as confused and desperate.  He even fears DD will harm him and we see that DD does not trust this DE one inch.  So what drove Snape to this meeting?  Did he just find out that LV intended to kill the Potters?  In that case, he blurted out his request to LV to save Lily as an immediate reaction and apparently received LV's assent (possibly as a reward for bringing the prophecy to him), or had he asked LV at an earlier time to save Lily and then something happened to convince Snape that LV wasn't going to do that?  Snape at this point has no faith at all that LV will keep his word.  I wonder why.

I think that Snape's belief in LV was completely destroyed in the instant he found out that LV intended to kill the Potters, and he had no recourse other than to throw himself on the mercy of DD.  Snape thought he was risking his life by talking to DD, who might kill him on sight, so he must have given up all hope that LV would spare her. 

 Why wouldn't DD protect the Potters as a matter of course once he knew they were prime targets?  Why does he say "what will you give me in return, Severus?" (p 678 US hardcover) as though he would not do anything without a tit for tat?  (I guess we now know DD wasn't about to miss an opportunity like that.)  We don't hear what DD says when Snape answers, "anything" but Snape took up his position at Hogwarts shortly after, and we must presume he began his career as a double agent at this point.   I always assumed DD performed Legitimacy on Snape, with Snape's full knowledge, when Snape looked up at him and gave his answer, and that DD was no longer disgusted at what he saw in Snape, but he was in fact fully satisfied. 

Nikkalmati




From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Oct  4 05:01:11 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:01:11 -0400
Subject: About Slytherin....
In-Reply-To: <ha7v3f+nsbk@eGroups.com>
References: <ha7v3f+nsbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4AC82C17.7070108@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187909

Alla:
> I am not sure I understand, do you think that author agrees with Dumbledore here or not? Because this is book 7 and not book 1 and I would think that if the idea was to show that Slytherin house is just as the same as any other house in Hogwarts and has his good qualities and bad qualities, it is really strange to make Dumbledore say it.
>   
 Bart:
Around the time Book 3 or 4 came out, I started coming up with a design 
for a Harry Potter collectible card game; I figured the best way to 
handle it would be to set it up as Quidditch, with various tactical 
maneuvers. There would have been standard maneuvers and House specific 
maneuvers. Each player had to come up with a team of at least 5 players 
from the same House, with no more than 2 "substitutes" from other 
Houses. The relevance now was that each House had maneuvers which 
matched the characteristics of the House, at least as I saw it. 
Gryffindor specialized in offensive moves, but was weak in defense. 
Hufflepuff was the opposite; strong in defense, but weak in offense. 
Ravenclaw's moves depended on complex tactics usually involving 
teamwork; their weakness was that the moves took more than one turn to 
execute, and could therefore be short-circuited by the other team.

And then, there was Slytherin. Slytherin's strength was the abilty of 
the players to cheat and get away with it. Or at last had a much better 
shot at getting away with it. Their weakness? Since they would cheat 
more often than the other teams, they would suffer more penalties.

But that's what I saw it coming down to, even as early as POA. That the 
specialty of Slytherin was the ability to take short-cuts, and not be 
concerned with things like morality and what other people might think. 
That, of course, would be a reason for being drawn to dark magic; one 
must assume that dark magic gives more power more easily than other 
magic, or else it would not be a temptation. However, it also means that 
the Slytherin mind is very much about weighing the risks, and choosing 
the path with the highest probability of the best outcome.

I do want to point out another "good Slytherin", although I suspect 
there might be some (many?) here who disagree with me: Phineas Nigellus 
Black. Say what you want about him, Finny was one of the very few who 
was always 100% straight with Harry. And, with his manner, he was also 
one of the very few who could actually get Harry to LISTEN to his 
advice. Frankly, I consider Finny superior to DD; at least you always 
knew where you stood with Finny.

Bart



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Oct  4 16:58:25 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 4 Oct 2009 16:58:25 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/4/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1254675505.11.72137.m3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187910

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday October 4, 2009
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. 

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK


All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2009 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20091004/b639263f/attachment.html>

From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Sun Oct  4 17:17:24 2009
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Joey)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 17:17:24 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha8cnp+8rl6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <haalb4+hne4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187911

Rick:
<snip>
> Phineas Nigellus is a Black and the least popular headmaster HWs has ever had.

Have we got anything besides Sirius' word for that one?




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 17:51:33 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 17:51:33 -0000
Subject: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP?
In-Reply-To: <4AA70595.6050308@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <ha82v5+lnu4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187912

Bart:
>     So, here's the thing. I personally believe that, although she
wasn't
> in the Moody photo, I don't recall anything that says that Molly (or
> Arthur, for that matter) was not in the original Order of the Phoenix.
I
> kind of assumed that she was, considering how the old hands, including
> DD, allowed her to take a leadership role in at least the
organizational
> end of the 2nd OOP.
>


I'm rereading OOP now.  In Chapter 9, The Woes of Mrs. Weasley
Lupen says to Molly (after Mad-Eye shows the pix of the 1st OOP and she
has that nasty little boggart problem):

"...but we're much better off than we were last time, you weren't in the
Order then, you don't understand..."

Rick



From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Oct  4 21:33:57 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 17:33:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on
 the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?
In-Reply-To: <ha94it+8hjj@eGroups.com>
References: <ha94it+8hjj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4AC914C5.7030108@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187913

Nikkalmati:
> I think that Snape's belief in LV was completely destroyed in the instant he found out that LV intended to kill the Potters, and he had no recourse other than to throw himself on the mercy of DD.  Snape thought he was risking his life by talking to DD, who might kill him on sight, so he must have given up all hope that LV would spare her. 

Bart:
    There is a story about a religious teacher, who was giving a lecture 
series. He was with a companion, looking out his window. Several 
teenagers started to strip a  car on the street.

    The teacher looked down. He commented to his companion, "I know what 
they are doing is wrong, but look at the skill with which they are 
performing their task. There is a sort of poetry to it .... Hey! Wait a 
second! That's MY car!!!!!!"

    I suspect that Snape was kind of like that teacher, depersonalizing 
the evil that the Death Eaters were doing because they gave him 
recognition, until it became personal, and it was only then that he 
realized that not only were they going after his lifelong friend, but it 
went further; that EVERYTHING he had been doing was wrong. Snape turning 
sides for selfish reasons was disgusting, but Snape repenting was not.

    Bart




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Oct  4 23:13:17 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 23:13:17 -0000
Subject: Chapter 5 /  Evanesco / House System
Message-ID: <haba6d+bgoj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187914

Sherriola discussed PS/SS Chapter 5 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187867>

To which, Casey Ferris replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187878>:

<< The thing that I really couldn't imagine was how the brick wall becomes an arch (where are the rectangular bricks go?). Judging by how they did it in the movie, I'm not the only one who can't really picture that. >>

In this Y!Group's Photos section, there is a folder (named "Harry Potter & Me") of screenshots from the "Harry Potter & Me" TV documentary including Rowling's own drawing of the bricks becoming an archway. The folder is <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/photos/album/498473407/pic/list> and the title of this photo is "diagonalley". My recollection is that Herself said that she wasn't able to find the drawing in time to give it to Chris Columbus, which is why he had to make up his own way for the bricks to move.

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187894>:

<< On occasion, [Rowling]'s completely illogical (how, for example, can Bill in OoP use his wand to cast Evanesco when both arms are overflowing with scrolls of parchment?) >>

Worse, Evanesco is not the right spell. Things which are Vanished go into nothing, "which to say, into everything", as McGonagall answered the Ravenclaw Door. If Bill meant to Vanish the scrolls (because they were temporary documents needed only for the meeting), he could have Vanished them without rolling them up and gathering them in his arms. That indicates that he had further use for those documents (perhaps sneaking them back into the file from which they had been 'borrowed'), in which case he would have Banished them rather than Vanished them. Does anyone know what is the incantation of the Banishing spell? Exeunt? Vale?

Rick Kennerly wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187906>:

<< I've always read a minor theme in the books, particularly the end of DH, of the house system being somewhat detrimental (big snip) Now that I'm rereading OOP, Chapter 11, The Sorting Hat's New Song, it makes this point explicitly. So much for my reading something into the subtext, I guess. >>

But when Rowling was asked whether the Sorting Hat was right in that song, she replied that the Sorting Hat was 'certainly sincere'. Since the series ended without anything about House amity (much less House unity), it seems to me that she didn't agree with the Hat's opinion.





From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Oct  5 00:29:56 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 00:29:56 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <h9f7je+jb0h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <habem4+otfj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187915




bboyminn:
 
I think we are making assumptions based on hearsay and generalizations. Voldemort many have generally considered trying to get James and Lily on his side, but we don't know that he literally did it. We don't know that he literally tried to recruit them, only that he would generally want to get as many people on his side as possible. 
 
If anything, someone other than Voldemort approached Lily and James and tried to sound them out; tried to get a sense of whether they would be receptive to being recruited. And, if that failed, where and how were they vulnerable so they could be coerced into supporting Voldemort.

Marianne:

Peter/Wormtail?????  Maybe




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Oct  5 00:42:24 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 00:42:24 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <h9g478+c62r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <habfdg+bt5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187916



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jelly92784" <jelly92784 at ...> wrote:

5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter?
 
I do believe Hagrid.  I think that he honestly didn't know that Harry didn't know anything about Hogwarts or the Wizarding World.  It makes me wonder what the conversation between Hagrid and Dumbledore, when Dumbledore sent him on this mission, was like.  Did Dumbledore know that Harry didn't know?  Probably not.  

Marianne:

Dumbledore should have had some clue about the Dursleys no telling him. He had a pretty good idea what kind of family Harry was going to, probably he had some kind of idea what the Dursleys' opinion of magic.

What makes DD think that the Dursleys would tell him?

Marianne




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Oct  5 01:25:49 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 01:25:49 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <h9rski+ng0p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <habhut+hk3k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187917



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sherriola" <sherriola at ...> wrote:
 
2.  This chapter is full of information that is either vital to the rest of the series or foreshadows events to come or themes in the series.  What jumps out at you in this chapter that is important to the rest of the series?

Marianne:

Hedwig.  When Harry was with the Dursleys in the summer, Hedwig was the one thing that kept him in touch with the magical world.  I think that's mentioned in one of the books somewhre.  Can't remember.
 
3.  We've already been introduced to Rowling's magnificent sense of humor in this book, but we see more of it in this chapter.  Even the name Diagon alley, and the authors of some of the school books.  What things tickled your funny bone when reading this chapter?

Marianne:

The woman outside the Apothercary saying "Dragons liver, seventeen Sickles an ounce, they're mad......."

Reminds me of the muggle world of people standing in a grocery store pricing, say, meat and griping about how much it is a pound.

The Defense against the Dark Arts teacher being afraid of his own subject.
 
6.  Harry and Draco have their first meeting in this chapter.  We know that this is a vital first meeting, affecting both boys for the rest of the series.  Thinking back to just this moment, without the knowledge you have now, what did you think of this meeting? How could Harry and or Draco have behaved differently to change the relationship between them for the future?  Could this have seriously affected events in the future?

Marianne:

My only impression was that Draco was just a snob.  Thought he was better than anyone else because of his.  Thought that the 'other sort' should never have been let in.

Considering how Draco acted in the beginning, I don't think there was anything different they could have done.


> 
> 





From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Oct  5 01:59:40 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 01:59:40 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha5dkv+cqia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <habjuc+9trv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187918



Carol responds:
 
I agree that the general impression of Slytherin that JKR created was unfavorable, but it was also filtered through Gryffindor eyes (every person who said bad things about Slytherin was a Gryffindor, from Hagrid to Percy) and colored by Harry's own encounters with Draco and Snape, including his mistaken assumption that Snape caused his scar to hurt. But I thought (and still think) that the depiction of most Slytherin students as ugly (a Quidditch player who looks like he has Troll blood, the thuggish CrabbenGoyle), the haglike Millicent Bulstrode) was overkill and exaggeration comparable to the exaggerated descriptions of Hagrid's hands and feet. (One of these days, I'll look up other instances of hyperbole in the books--it's a favorite device of JKR's, along with puns).

Marianne:

I've listened to the books on CD several times, and only read the series once, and because of that I haven't got all the little details like I would have if I'd read the books serveral times, but I seem to recall that JKR referred Pansey Parkinson as a hard faced girl.  Can't remember which book it was in. 

Carol responds:

For me, "Spinner's End" and HBP in general provided the first hint that even Death Eaters and other Voldemort supporters had a human side (Narcissa's love for her son and loyalty to her husband; Draco's fears for his family and hesitation on the Tower). Even Bellatrix cares about "Cissy" (but not as much as she adores Voldemort).

Marianne:

Hearing Bellatrix referring to her sister as Cissy comes across as having sense of family, and some affection.  I found it surprising.  I wouldn't have thought Bella had much affection for anyone, except Voldemort.  And the fact that Bella was trying to keep Narcissa from going to Spinner's End was interesting.  Like she did care about Narcissa's actions.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Oct  5 02:20:59 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 02:20:59 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha7v3f+nsbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <habl6b+jtb3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187919

 
> Alla:
> 
> I am not sure I understand, do you think that author agrees with Dumbledore here or not? Because this is book 7 and not book 1 and I would think that if the idea was to show that Slytherin house is just as the same as any other house in Hogwarts and has his good qualities and bad qualities, it is really strange to make Dumbledore say it.


Pippin:

Do you think the author agrees with Draco that Hagrid is a kind of savage who gets drunk every so often? It turns out to be  true, but it's not the whole story. The Prince's Tale comes late in Book Seven, but  it's not the whole story either. There are still significant developments to come.

Dumbledore is not the hero. Harry is the hero, and he is the one who says that it makes no difference to him if his son is a Slytherin. Do you think the author agrees with that?

I agree that Dumbledore was suggesting that Slytherin was not a good choice for Snape, and Snape is thinking "If I hadn't gone into Slytherin, I could have had a different life." And that could be true as far as it goes. But Slughorn's return makes it a copout. Snape didn't have to be in a different house to reject pureblood fanaticism, dark arts or disloyalty to Hogwarts, or to find examples of friendship and bravery.  

I don't entirely like the way Slughorn operates, but he was never a criminal, he remained a friend of Lily's to the day she died,  he's a respected and valuable member of the WW, and no one suggests that he should have been in another house. 

It was clearly Slughorn who obtained the reinforcements and led them back to the castle, to a battle that seemed far from winnable, considering that the castle defenders were outnumbered and Voldemort had just announced Harry was dead.  I ask, as I did with Draco, what you think a decent person would have done in this situation that Slughorn did not do?

Whether the  Slytherin students followed Sluggie or not is a question of choosing what to believe. But clearly they had that choice, and so, back in the day, did Snape. He could have chosen to be the sort of Slytherin that Slughorn would be proud of instead of sticking to his little Death Eater friends.

Pippin






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct  5 12:18:27 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:18:27 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <ha2clq+o14a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <haco6j+irci@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187920


> Pippin:
Just as Draco isn't exactly wrong about Hagrid and is darn right about some things, Hagrid wasn't exactly  wrong about Slytherin. But does that mean that Draco isn't prejudiced against Hagrid? Is it fair to make claims that can't be substantiated ("ends up setting fire to his bed") and say nothing of Hagrid's courage or his loyalty, his devotion to Hogwarts or the high regard which many other characters have for him?

Potioncat:
Well, I think I get your point, but just to clarify, I meant that Draco's abuse of Hagrid is one the reasons Harry (and most readers) don't like Draco. Yet Draco isn't too far off the mark. In a later book Luna will tell Harry that most Ravenclaws consider Hagrid to be a joke. So Hagrid isn't uniformly liked. Granted, the tone and purpose of Luna's comments are different than Draco's.

Many of us worry about the nature of a man who would give a child a pig's tail in retaliation on the father ---and we're the ones who like him.


 
> Pippin:
It's much the same with Snape and Slughorn and the other Slytherins.  To disregard their courage and loyalty, to believe the worst (and only the worst) which is said about them and ignore their devotion to Hogwarts and the regard which many other characters have for them, is, IMO, to do just as Draco did.

Potioncat:
In the beginning Harry is judging Slytherin by Hagrid's comments, and by his interaction with Draco (at the Sorting Hat). But as the series unfolds, every contact with Slytherins is a bad one. We have Snape, the Slytherin Quidditch team, Draco, etc. There is never so much as a neutral interaction. There are a couple of Slytherins that we never see Harry interact with, but nothing else. So we are never given any reason to think there might be more to Slytherins.

Over the years, students from all houses at Hogwarts turn against Harry, yet there is generally someone from each house--except Slytherin---who supports him. So we are never given any idea that Slytherin is anything but bad.

It's not until DH that Harry and the reader start to see any positive Slytherins. (OK, HBP if you count Slughorn, but he doesn't look good until the very end of DH.) I should add, that some of us saw Snape as a good Slytherin early on, but Harry had little reason to think so.

I'm just not sure that the reader, and perhaps JKR herself, doesn't think that Snape and Slughorn were the exception to Slytherin---just like Lily was different from the other Muggle-borns. (Wait a minute, I'm proving your point, aren't I?) But my point is that I don't think very many would get it.




Pippin:
> I'm laughing over the idea that there's no reversal re Slytherin House. 
> 
snip
> 
Hagrid's example of a Slytherin is Voldemort, Harry's is Snape. Hagrid says it's better to be a duffer than a Slytherin, because only Slytherins turn out to be dark wizards, Harry says the major consequence of Al being chosen for Slytherin will be that Slytherin gets an excellent student. Hagrid speaks "darkly" (ooh, a Tom Swifty), Harry speaks quietly, using reason, not fear. Harry, unlike Hagrid or Draco, respects Al's right to decide who the wrong sort are for himself.

Potioncat:
I should probably point out, before someone else does, that I've taken both sides on this debate. It never seemed to make sense to me that everyone in Slytherin should be bad. Yet at the same time, it's all JKR ever showed us. However, if we'd read a book about young Severus Snape we'd think all Gryffindors were bad.

But I'd like to ask this, "I'm laughing over the idea that there's no reversal re Slytherin House." Do you mean you think Slytherin House changed, or Harry's view of Slytherin House changed? Or that the readers' view of Slytherin should change by the ending? What do you think the Slytherin House of Al's day will look like?

Because I' m wondering what it is that makes Al afraid of being Slytherin? Is it that he's afraid he won't make Gryffindor, and the idea of any other house is unsatisfactory? Is it that his drive to excel has earned him some teasing, and he's denying his inner ambition?  And again, I'm not sure that JKR doesn't think Snape and Horace are exceptions.





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 12:20:54 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:20:54 -0000
Subject: Chapter 5 /  Evanesco / House System
In-Reply-To: <haba6d+bgoj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hacob6+oqq3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187921

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:
>

> But when Rowling was asked whether the Sorting Hat was right in that song, she replied that the Sorting Hat was 'certainly sincere'. Since the series ended without anything about House amity (much less House unity), it seems to me that she didn't agree with the Hat's opinion.
>

Well, if the final battle for Hogwarts was anything, it was a display of unity to defeat a common foe--but no idea how long it would last.  Even Slughorn--the prototypical Slytherin--eventually, joined against the LV in the very end.  

Certainly, pigeonholing students at such a young age, particularly the less than stellar also-rans--the Hufflepuffs--neither brave, sly nor clever, seems damaging to me and overly deterministic.  And JKR makes a point of showing how porous the boundaries could be.  Harry could have been either a G or an S, Hg could have been either a G or an R.  Certainly, until the end, Longbottom wasn't G material.  

Worse is the inherited legacy of the House system.  Draco was merely the latest in a long line of Slytherin Puppet Masters and pure blood racists. Unlike the HP/Hg/RW gang of Griffs, nothing good came of the Draco, Crabb, Goyle, Parkinson gang.  

rick 




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 11:59:20 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 11:59:20 -0000
Subject: About Slytherin....
In-Reply-To: <4AC82C17.7070108@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hacn2o+opkp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187922





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
> must assume that dark magic gives more power more easily than other 
> magic, or else it would not be a temptation. However, it also means that 
> the Slytherin mind is very much about weighing the risks, and choosing 
> the path with the highest probability of the best outcome.
> 

PNB to Harry as he's packing to leave Grimmauld Place (OOP, Christmas on the Closed Ward)

"It looks to me as though you'd better off in my own house.  We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid.  For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks."  

> I do want to point out another "good Slytherin", although I suspect 
> there might be some (many?) here who disagree with me: Phineas Nigellus 
> Black. Say what you want about him, Finny was one of the very few who 
> was always 100% straight with Harry. And, with his manner, he was also 
> one of the very few who could actually get Harry to LISTEN to his 
> advice. Frankly, I consider Finny superior to DD; at least you always 
> knew where you stood with Finny.
> 
> Bart
>

Isn't this the same PNB who feigned sleep in his portrait to avoid a mission when DD tried to send him off to Grimmauld Place the night Arthur Weasley was attacked by the snake?  He had to be shamed into taking the job by the other portraits.  

Rick 





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct  5 12:39:41 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:39:41 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
Message-ID: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187923

Football is up and running in the US. Everyday there's a new list showing which teams are in the top ten; which players are the best at what they do. The ranking changes week to week--and depends on who writes the list!

So, I'd like to see what a HP ranking might look like.

Name the 10 most noteworthy good guys and the 10 most despicable bad guys from the Harry Potter series. It's not necessary to rank the 10 (unless you particularly want to), just decide who belongs in those 2 top ten lists.


Potioncat 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct  5 12:55:33 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:55:33 -0000
Subject: Chapter 5 /  Evanesco / House System
In-Reply-To: <hacob6+oqq3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hacqc5+t3pb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187924


>Rick: 
> Certainly, pigeonholing students at such a young age, particularly the less than stellar also-rans--the Hufflepuffs--neither brave, sly nor clever, seems damaging to me and overly deterministic.  And JKR makes a point of showing how porous the boundaries could be.  Harry could have been either a G or an S, Hg could have been either a G or an R.  Certainly, until the end, Longbottom wasn't G material. 


Potioncat:
I love the house system. Well, not really. What I love is that each house would look different from the inside. A house doesn't lack the quality of another house, as much as it gives a higher value to a different quality.

I doubt that Professor Sprout thinks of herself as neither brave, sly nor clever. I imagine she thinks of herself as a hard-working, loyal individual. Hufflepuffs would (I think) see themselves as the backbone of the WW, who never quite get the respect they deserve. They would be glad not to as reckless as the Gryffindors, nor as book-bound as Ravenclaws, nor as so extremely success oriented as Slytherins. 

I disagree about Neville. He showed his courage the very first year. Not only did he stand up to the Trio, but he showed up for Potions day after day and put up with Snape's treatment. I don't think Harry would have been a Slytherin, but he could have been a Hufflepuff with his frequent display of loyalty to his friends. OK, I guess he did have a desire to prove himself, and he did bend the rules to succeed in Potions. So Yes to Slytherin.






From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Oct  5 14:32:46 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:32:46 -0400
Subject: About heroes...
In-Reply-To: <hacn2o+opkp@eGroups.com>
References: <hacn2o+opkp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4ACA038E.4020605@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187925

rhkennerly wrote:
> Isn't this the same PNB who feigned sleep in his portrait to avoid a mission when DD tried to send him off to Grimmauld Place the night Arthur Weasley was attacked by the snake?  He had to be shamed into taking the job by the other portraits.  
Bart:
    Ah, this brings up one of my favorite topics. Over the years, and 
particularly since the 2nd World War, the idea of heroes has been 
changed. Before, heroes were human. They were by no means perfect; they 
have characteristics that many would find reprehensible. What made them 
heroic was not just that they accomplished great things, but that they 
were able to transcend their own faults to accomplish great things. 
Consider, for example, Slughorn, who loved his comfort, and wanted to 
stay in the background, out of the way of things, but, when push came to 
shove, even when he had the opportunity to slink into the background 
instead, overcame his own limitations to join the fight against Morty.

    These days, heroes are supposed to be faultless, or for their faults 
to only on the surface, easily brushed away. If they are found to have 
true faults, then they are no longer heroes. Since everybody has true 
faults, it means that the only heroes these days are found in fiction.

    Which is a true shame.

    But, going into the fictional universe of Harry Potter, yes, Finny 
has to be shamed into action. But the fact that he CAN be shamed into 
action is actually a point in his favor. He doesn't want to do the right 
thing; it goes against his grain. But he ends up doing it anyway, 
without being forced to do so, because it is the right thing. Compare 
this to Harry, who has been carefully manipulated his entire life into 
doing the right thing; true, if it weren't for his preparation, as 
nearly as we can tell, he would have died and stayed dead. But his 
freely offering himself to Morty, which turns his mortysoul into a 
buffer against Morty's AK, is not an overcoming of deep-seated 
personality traits; self-sacrifice is not a trait which Harry lacks.

    The greatest battle a hero must fight is with him or herself. And 
those who have won that battle, in real life or fiction, will not be 
considered heroes by the majority of Westerners born past 1935 or so, 
not because the hero was not heroic, but because hero had the flaw to be 
overcome in the first place.

    Bart



From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Oct  5 14:51:53 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:51:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>
References: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4ACA0809.3050203@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187926

potioncat wrote:
> Name the 10 most noteworthy good guys and the 10 most despicable bad guys from the Harry Potter series. It's not necessary to rank the 10 (unless you particularly want to), just decide who belongs in those 2 top ten lists.
>   

   Well, given my previous post on heroism, I will name several good 
guys who won their own internal battles:

    1) Snape, of course, who could have been at Morty's right hand, but 
chose to switch sides. Of course, one might assume that Morty would have 
killed Snape eventually (much as, for example, Iraq's Saddam Hussein had 
a nasty habit of killing his best generals, because they might 
eventually pose a threat to him).

    2) Sluggy. He didn't want to get involved, he didn't have to get 
involved, but he did anyway.

    3) Wolfie. He had to embrace what he hated the most about himself, 
yet resist it at the same time, to serve a community that hated him. No 
wonder he was so depressed.

    4) Neville. His flaw was lack of confidence. To go from that to the 
leader of the student resistance took some doing.

    Now, for despicable. I'll go for those who knew the right thing to 
do, but did the wrong thing anyway, until the end. I'm not going to 
include those who acted, or appeared to act, out of mental illness, so 
that lets out Morty and a few others.

    1) Ratty. He betrayed those who befriended him, who helped him, who 
even loved him, because he thought the other side had a better chance of 
winning.

    2) Filch. Instead of trying to fight his bitterness, he reveled in 
it; instead of making himself better, he tried to equalize things by 
making others worse.

    3) Pinky. In her world, her own ends justified any means that she 
used. She blinded herself to the evil that she served, as long as she 
had her little petty fiefdoms.

    4) Smiley: He stole the accomplishments of others, he effectively 
destroyed part of their souls, all to satisfy his own ego. He almost 
didn't make this list because his behavior borders on mental illness.

    Bart



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  5 16:27:13 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:27:13 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <had6p1+dspj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187927



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> Football is up and running in the US. Everyday there's a new list showing which teams are in the top ten; which players are the best at what they do. The ranking changes week to week--and depends on who writes the list!
> 
> So, I'd like to see what a HP ranking might look like.
> 
> Name the 10 most noteworthy good guys and the 10 most despicable bad guys from the Harry Potter series. It's not necessary to rank the 10 (unless you particularly want to), just decide who belongs in those 2 top ten lists.
> 

Alla:

OOOOO, ok.


Well, of course there are a lot of characters who are not just good or bad, but I am putting them according to what I feel is prevailing in their character, does not mean of course that they are all completely bad. And same thing with the good guys of course.


So bad guys, you know I just realized that unless I will put in all DE "just names" characters I may not be able to get ten bad guys.

But here we go.

1. Snape.

2. Dumbledore.

3. Voldemort.

4. Bella.

5. Greyback.

6. Lucius

7. Narcissa

8. Draco.

9. Pansy.

10. Hmmm. I guess Peter. YAY I got ten and yes, yes I know Snape and Dumbledore have their good qualities, just to me their bad qualities overshadow everything else.



Good guys. Eh, really I will just be listing everybody else, so I will just list characters that I love, but list is certainly not inclusive. And same thing here, I do not think all characters here are totally good, just to me, by totality of the evidence, they are more good than bad.

1. Harry

2. Ron

3. Hermione

4. Neville

5. Sirius

6. Remus

7. Arthur

8. Molly

9. Minerva

10.  Ginny


Fun game Potioncat!

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  5 16:28:37 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:28:37 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <4ACA0809.3050203@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <had6rl+nbd8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187928



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>> <SNIP>
>     3) Pinky. In her world, her own ends justified any means that she 
> used. She blinded herself to the evil that she served, as long as she 
> had her little petty fiefdoms.
> 
>     4) Smiley: He stole the accomplishments of others, he effectively 
> destroyed part of their souls, all to satisfy his own ego. He almost 
> didn't make this list because his behavior borders on mental illness.
> 


Alla:

I should have combined it with my post, I am sorry, but I just have to ask. Who are these characters? Sorry, you got me confused with the nicknames :)




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 14:56:45 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:56:45 -0000
Subject: About heroes...
In-Reply-To: <4ACA038E.4020605@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <had1fd+3n3i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187929


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
>     The greatest battle a hero must fight is with him or herself. And
> those who have won that battle, in real life or fiction, will not be
> considered heroes by the majority of Westerners born past 1935 or so,
> not because the hero was not heroic, but because hero had the flaw to be
> overcome in the first place.
>
>


Well, no doubt.  But compared to DD, PNB is a coward.  His fight is over, he's dead, just another pontificating talking head holding forth from the safety of a portrait (or television, for that matter).

DD is still engaged in the battle, making choices and having to uncover truths and worry about consequences. It's easy to be brave and wise from PNB's prospective.

Teddy Roosevelt did a speech back in 1910(-ish) usually referred to as the Man in the Arena speech that speaks to this directly.

Rick




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 20:18:33 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 20:18:33 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <haalb4+hne4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <haavup+plsl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187930


> Rick:
> <snip>
> > Phineas Nigellus is a Black and the least popular headmaster HWs has ever had.

Joey:
> Have we got anything besides Sirius' word for that one?
>

Nope.

Rick




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  5 17:09:34 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:09:34 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <habl6b+jtb3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <had98e+idnj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187931


Pippin:

Do you think the author agrees with Draco that Hagrid is a kind of savage who
gets drunk every so often? It turns out to be true, but it's not the whole
story. The Prince's Tale comes late in Book Seven, but it's not the whole story
either. There are still significant developments to come.

Alla:

Well, Draco is not self proclaimed character who often speaks for the author, right? Therefore I think it is a bit easier to argue both sides whether author agrees with his contentions or not.

I am actually curious, what  positive developments were coming  for Slytherin house after Prince tale, because I do not remember any. Snape did his job and dead. Slughorn is already there. We already know about Regulus' story.

You know what they say to inexperienced trial lawyers? Make sure the last sentence in your closing argument is memorable, because this is what jury will remember. While Dumbledore's wondering is not exactly the very last one, but it feels like it to me. It feels to me that story of Snape is a story of overcoming his Slytherinness (is that even a word?) and Dumbledore nodding approvingly along the way

Pippin:
Dumbledore is not the hero. Harry is the hero, and he is the one who says that
it makes no difference to him if his son is a Slytherin. Do you think the author
agrees with that?

Alla:

I think so, yes. I also remember Harry talking about  Hat putting Al where he truly wants to be and do I have any doubt that he truly wants to be in Gryffindor? No, not really.

To be clear, I am not disputing that we are shown marginal change in the Slytherin house, to be sure I am not disputing that we are shown that they are not all devils, and some of them are heroes. All that I was arguing goes back to Sherry's original question about Harry developing antislytherin feelings. While I think Harry's feelings are shown to be over generalized, I do not think they were shown to be wrong as to the house as a whole.

Harry loves his son, of course he will support him even if he is in Slytherin house, but it looked to me that Harry is pretty sure that he will not be. IMO of course.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
It was clearly Slughorn who obtained the reinforcements and led them back to the
castle, to a battle that seemed far from winnable, considering that the castle
defenders were outnumbered and Voldemort had just announced Harry was dead. I
ask, as I did with Draco, what you think a decent person would have done in this
situation that Slughorn did not do?

Alla:

Well, in case of Slughorn my answer is nothing of course, it is just not enough for me to think that this is what the majority of Slytherins would have done. In the case of Draco, I thought I answered, for me to call Draco half decent person, I needed at least for him to not hesitate when he was told to identify the Trio. This was the action that required some sort of change from him, some miniscule reevaluation of his values and all that. Saving his friend? Eh, again, it is good, but to me did not require any change in Draco. I mean, I could not stand any one of those three, but surely nobody doubted that they are supposed to be friends?

It is when character does something which is something I would never believe he would have done before THAT to me shows a change in him. I am not disputing miniscule change in Draco, but way not enough for me to qualify it as any sort of reversal. Maybe in twenty or thirty years, he will even do something truly remarkable LOL. Maybe after Tower I just expected something a little bit faster, I don't know.

JMO,

Alla







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  5 18:54:55 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 18:54:55 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hadfdv+hrek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187932



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> Football is up and running in the US. Everyday there's a new list showing which teams are in the top ten; which players are the best at what they do. The ranking changes week to week--and depends on who writes the list!
> 
> So, I'd like to see what a HP ranking might look like.
> 
> Name the 10 most noteworthy good guys and the 10 most despicable bad guys from the Harry Potter series. It's not necessary to rank the 10 (unless you particularly want to), just decide who belongs in those 2 top ten lists.
> 
> 
> Potioncat
>
Carol responds:

I doubt that I can come up with ten for either side unless, as Alla said, I randomly name Death Eaters.

However, I'll give it a shot.

Good Guys

1. Snape, without whom Harry could not have defeated Voldemort (or even survived Quirrell's attack) and DD would have had no reliable source of information regarding Voldemort and the DEs. (He also taught them about Polyjuice Potion and bezoars, deliberately taught them Expelliarmus, and inadvertently taught them Muffliato and Levicorpus.) He epitomizes courage in the face of near-universal hatred and the power of love and remorse.

2. Dumbledore, who for all his faults did prepare Harry for his task and give Snape a new direction

3. HRH as a team or unit (both of them saved Harry's life in DH--or prevented him from becoming Vapor!Boy--and Hermione, of course, cast all those protective spells)

4. Regulus, whose courage and devotion to Kreacher breaks my heart

5. Neville, the ultimate "little guy" hero who finds his courage and becomes a leader and a hero when the need arises (loved it when he slew Nagini)

6. Cedric, who stood for fair play and innocence, who was "good and kind and brave" and exemplified the virtues of Hufflepuff

7. Phineas Nigellus, whose delightfully snide remarks provide an accurate and unsentimentalized view of teenagers and who is Snape's number one fan, helping him much more eagerly than he helped Dumbledore

8. Luna, whose ability to endure suffering and humiliation with grace is exemplary (and, besides, she's funny)

Bad guys

1. Nagini. I hate her more than I hate Voldemort. She ate his victims, she sustained him through her venomous "milk" when he was Baby!mort (and her venom was an ingredient in the potion that created that repulsive form), she killed Snape, and she viciously attacked both Harry and Mr. Weasley. The scene where she comes out of Bathilda's body may be the most horrific moment in the series, simultaneously revolting and terrifying.

2. Umbridge, who is altogether loathsome and seems to have no redeeming qualities

3. Dolohov, apparently the most sadistic and twisted of the DEs next to Bellatrix

4. Bellatrix, whose demented worship of Voldemort causes her to seek out her own niece as a murder victim and who is shown at her demented and savage worst in "Malfoy Manor"

5. Wormtail, the cowardly traitor (who neverthless is more talented than others give him credit for)

6. Voldemort himself, especially in the form of scaly, reptilian child, screaming "Kill the spare!"

Carol, for whom the most surprising seriously bad guy is DH Crabbe

5.




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Oct  5 20:53:06 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:53:06 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <had6rl+nbd8@eGroups.com>
References: <had6rl+nbd8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4ACA5CB2.6080300@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187933

dumbledore11214 wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>   
>>> <SNIP>
>>>       
>>     3) Pinky. In her world, her own ends justified any means that she 
>> used. She blinded herself to the evil that she served, as long as she 
>> had her little petty fiefdoms.
>>
>>     4) Smiley: He stole the accomplishments of others, he effectively 
>> destroyed part of their souls, all to satisfy his own ego. He almost 
>> didn't make this list because his behavior borders on mental illness.
>>
>>     
>
> Alla:
>
> I should have combined it with my post, I am sorry, but I just have to ask. Who are these characters? Sorry, you got me confused with the nicknames :)
>   

Bart:
    And here I was thinking I was obvious.

    Pinky is Dolores Umbridge, and Smiley is Gilderoy Lockhart.

    Bart


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 21:21:40 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 21:21:40 -0000
Subject: Chapter 5 /  Evanesco / House System
In-Reply-To: <hacqc5+t3pb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hado14+lih3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187934


> Potioncat:
> I love the house system. Well, not really. What I love is that each house would look different from the inside. A house doesn't lack the quality of another house, as much as it gives a higher value to a different quality.
> 
> I doubt that Professor Sprout thinks of herself as neither brave, sly nor clever. I imagine she thinks of herself as a hard-working, loyal individual. Hufflepuffs would (I think) see themselves as the backbone of the WW, who never quite get the respect they deserve. 

Well, yeah.  It's Brave New World all over again.  Breed'um to be happy with their lot in life.  

I realize they've gotta divide them up for dorming and for sports, but they could have just counted them off 1,2,3,4.  

Rick




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  5 22:29:47 2009
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris22)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:29:47 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hads0r+okik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187935

Potioncat:
> 
> Name the 10 most noteworthy good guys and the 10 most despicable bad guys from the Harry Potter series. It's not necessary to rank the 10 (unless you particularly want to), just decide who belongs in those 2 top ten lists.
> 
> Sartoris22:

I'd have to put Snape at the top of both lists. He's the greatest hero, of course, because he reports to Voldemort, even though he might be exposed at any minute, through Voldemort's abiity to read minds and Bellatrix's constant shrieking about Snape being untrustworthy. Snape's the ultimate bad guy because he constantly taunts and tortures Harry, his hatred of James overcoming his ability to locate some compassion for Lily's son. In DH, while he's dying, Snape shares a memory in which Dumblemore asks Snape does he finally have some feeling for Harry, and Snape responds by showing that he has love for only Lily. To me, Snape carries his hatred for James, and by extension Harry, to his grave. Besides, an adult hating a kid as much as Snape hated Harry is villianous indeed.
> 
>





From margdean56 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 22:34:15 2009
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:34:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hadfdv+hrek@eGroups.com>
References: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com> <hadfdv+hrek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5e3bb890910051534h777b06b4t898b572706320f9d@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187936

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:54 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Bad guys
>
> 1. Nagini. I hate her more than I hate Voldemort. She ate his victims, she sustained him through her venomous "milk" when he was Baby!mort (and her venom was an ingredient in the potion that created that repulsive form), she killed Snape, and she viciously attacked both Harry and Mr. Weasley. The scene where she comes out of Bathilda's body may be the most horrific moment in the series, simultaneously revolting and terrifying.

I was a little surprised by this, mainly because I never thought of
Nagini in any terms but "animal" -- kind of like Hagrid when he points
out that if Crookshanks has indeed eaten Scabbers it's because he's
"only doing what cats do."  That is, I don't consider her a self-aware
creature with moral choices.  Yes, she attacks and eats people on
Voldemort's orders, but I don't fault her for that any more than I'd
fault an attack dog for obeying its master's directions to attack
people.  (The *master*, OTOH, I might have much more severe language
for.)

OTOH I'm aware that many people have an instinctive revulsion for
snakes which I don't happen to share, and that may be a factor here
too.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Oct  6 02:27:01 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 02:27:01 -0000
Subject: Chapter 5 /  Evanesco / House System
In-Reply-To: <hado14+lih3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hae9tl+lmgg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187937

Rick:
> Well, yeah.  It's Brave New World all over again.  Breed'um to be happy with their lot in life.  

Potioncat:
Who are you and how did you know what I deleted from my post?
I actually made a reference to Brave New World, but decided it muddied the point I was making. So I took it out before I hit send.

The difference, as I see it, is that the children in BNW were being taught their level was the best one. The As were told they were best becasue they were the smartest. The Bs were told they didn't have to work as hard as As. I don't remember what the other groups were told. Heck, when I last read BNW, 1984 was still the future.

In the case of Hogwarts, the members of a House are chosen according to the trait they value or possess. House placement doesn't limit their future or determine their lot in life.




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 11:48:59 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:48:59 -0000
Subject: Chapter 5 /  Evanesco / House System
In-Reply-To: <hae9tl+lmgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hafarb+9q7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187938

> Potioncat:
> In the case of Hogwarts, the members of a House are chosen according to the trait they value or possess. House placement doesn't limit their future or determine their lot in life.


Kemper now:
I agree that students are chosen according to the trait they value, but they don't need to possess it.

Neville barraged by stories of valor and bravery by his mom and pops.  Ok, maybe not canon, but going every christmas to see his brave parents may have influenced Neville to want that ideal in himself.

G House was most suited for meeting Neville's ideal self, granting him opportunities to be brave.  

Peter may have valued bravery at one point but didn't take those opportunities to be brave when presented while in the House of Gryffidor. 

Kemper




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 12:28:50 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:28:50 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hafd62+dqed@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187939


> Potioncat:
> Name the 10 most noteworthy good guys and the 10 most despicable bad guys from the Harry Potter series. It's not necessary to rank the 10 (unless you particularly want to), just decide who belongs in those 2 top ten lists.

My teams are mostly separated by potential and mild disappointment.

Crookshanks
Mrs Figg
Hermione's Folks
Griphook
Kreacher
Neville
Luna
Albus Severus
Team Captain: Snape


Sirius
Firenz
Mungdungus
Ginny
Grawp
Teddy Lupin
Peeves
Umbridge
Winky
Team Captain: Hermione




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  6 16:40:11 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 16:40:11 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <e5e3bb890910051534h777b06b4t898b572706320f9d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hafrtb+sufe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187940

Carol earlier:
> 
> > Bad guys
> >
> > 1. Nagini. I hate her more than I hate Voldemort. She ate his victims, she sustained him through her venomous "milk" when he was Baby!mort (and her venom was an ingredient in the potion that created that repulsive form), she killed Snape, and she viciously attacked both Harry and Mr. Weasley. The scene where she comes out of Bathilda's body may be the most horrific moment in the series, simultaneously revolting and terrifying.

Margaret Dean responded: 
> I was a little surprised by this, mainly because I never thought of Nagini in any terms but "animal" -- kind of like Hagrid when he points out that if Crookshanks has indeed eaten Scabbers it's because he's "only doing what cats do."  That is, I don't consider her a self-aware creature with moral choices.  Yes, she attacks and eats people on Voldemort's orders, but I don't fault her for that any more than I'd fault an attack dog for obeying its master's directions to attack people.  (The *master*, OTOH, I might have much more severe language
> for.)
> 
> OTOH I'm aware that many people have an instinctive revulsion for
> snakes which I don't happen to share, and that may be a factor here
> too.

Carol again:

I understand your perspective, but I'd like you to understand mine, too, even if you don't agree with it. It has nothing to do with an instinctive revulsion to snakes, which I don't have. (I rather like the boa constrictor in SS/PS, for example).

I think that Nagini and Voldemort had an affinity for one another even before he made her a Horcrux. She was already his "dear Nagini," his pet, his familiar, and even a kind of surrogate mother if you count the restorative potion and the "milk." When we see into her mind in OoP, she's not just acting as a Horcrux, she feels an instinctive desire to bite and attack the man (Mr. Weasley). she's quite happy to oblige Voldemort when he treats her with his victims or orders her to bite Snape. She bites and fights Harry on his orders, true, but he's the only thing that restrains her; she'd happily have killed Harry rather than luring him into a room to subdue him and hold him for Voldemort. In other words, she's not just a killing machine. She's a parallel to Voldemort, a kindred spirit, who apparently enjoys maiming and killing. 

Animals in the HP books, especially magical animals, are not just automatons who act on instinct. Owls magically deliver letters, and Hedwig clearly has a personality, which sometimes includes resentment of Harry or jealousy of another owl as well as loyalty to Harry. Crookshanks and other part-Kneazle cats (Mr. Tibbs, probably Mrs. Norris) are highly intelligent. Crookshanks is *not* just instinctively chasing Scabbers because one is a cat and the other a rat, as Hermione thinks. He *knows* that Wormtail (and, for that matter, Padfoot) is an Animagus and that Wormtail is untrustworthy. He even helps Padfoot/Sirius get into the castle to kill him by stealing Neville's list of passwords.

Nagini, to me, is the antithesis of Hedwig and Crookshanks, an animal who willingly and deliberately helps her master, not because she's the slave of his will but because she's evil in herself, rather like the Basilisk, which would have been just as formidable and just as bloodthirsty if it hadn't been controlled by Tom Riddle.

Carol, noting DD's remark that having an animal as a Horcrux is inadvisable because it can move and *think* on its own






From margdean56 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 16:51:42 2009
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:51:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hafrtb+sufe@eGroups.com>
References: <e5e3bb890910051534h777b06b4t898b572706320f9d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <hafrtb+sufe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <e5e3bb890910060951t4e84add7jdcf5d1308c0b8ca3@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187941

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:40 AM, justcarol67 <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Carol earlier:
> >
> > > Bad guys
> > >
> > > 1. Nagini. I hate her more than I hate Voldemort. She ate his victims, she sustained him through her venomous "milk" when he was Baby!mort (and her venom was an ingredient in the potion that created that repulsive form), she killed Snape, and she viciously attacked both Harry and Mr. Weasley. The scene where she comes out of Bathilda's body may be the most horrific moment in the series, simultaneously revolting and terrifying.
>
> Margaret Dean responded:
> > I was a little surprised by this, mainly because I never thought of Nagini in any terms but "animal" -- kind of like Hagrid when he points out that if Crookshanks has indeed eaten Scabbers it's because he's "only doing what cats do." That is, I don't consider her a self-aware creature with moral choices. Yes, she attacks and eats people on Voldemort's orders, but I don't fault her for that any more than I'd fault an attack dog for obeying its master's directions to attack people. (The *master*, OTOH, I might have much more severe language
> > for.)
> >
> > OTOH I'm aware that many people have an instinctive revulsion for
> > snakes which I don't happen to share, and that may be a factor here
> > too.
>
> Carol again:
>
> I understand your perspective, but I'd like you to understand mine, too, even if you don't agree with it. It has nothing to do with an instinctive revulsion to snakes, which I don't have. (I rather like the boa constrictor in SS/PS, for example).

Oh, no, I quite understand your perspective -- it just caught me off
guard, that's all.

> I think that Nagini and Voldemort had an affinity for one another even before he made her a Horcrux. She was already his "dear Nagini," his pet, his familiar, and even a kind of surrogate mother if you count the restorative potion and the "milk." When we see into her mind in OoP, she's not just acting as a Horcrux, she feels an instinctive desire to bite and attack the man (Mr. Weasley). she's quite happy to oblige Voldemort when he treats her with his victims or orders her to bite Snape. She bites and fights Harry on his orders, true, but he's the only thing that restrains her; she'd happily have killed Harry rather than luring him into a room to subdue him and hold him for Voldemort. In other words, she's not just a killing machine. She's a parallel to Voldemort, a kindred spirit, who apparently enjoys maiming and killing.
>
> Animals in the HP books, especially magical animals, are not just automatons who act on instinct. Owls magically deliver letters, and Hedwig clearly has a personality, which sometimes includes resentment of Harry or jealousy of another owl as well as loyalty to Harry. Crookshanks and other part-Kneazle cats (Mr. Tibbs, probably Mrs. Norris) are highly intelligent. Crookshanks is *not* just instinctively chasing Scabbers because one is a cat and the other a rat, as Hermione thinks. He *knows* that Wormtail (and, for that matter, Padfoot) is an Animagus and that Wormtail is untrustworthy. He even helps Padfoot/Sirius get into the castle to kill him by stealing Neville's list of passwords.
>
> Nagini, to me, is the antithesis of Hedwig and Crookshanks, an animal who willingly and deliberately helps her master, not because she's the slave of his will but because she's evil in herself, rather like the Basilisk, which would have been just as formidable and just as bloodthirsty if it hadn't been controlled by Tom Riddle.
>
> Carol, noting DD's remark that having an animal as a Horcrux is inadvisable because it can move and *think* on its own

That does raise an interesting question about magical animals, how
sentient they are, and whether they can make moral choices.  Since
they are magical, it's quite possible that they can, but I don't think
there's any textev one way or another.

And if they are at that level of intelligence/sentience, should they
be treated as people?  Another can of worms....


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Oct  6 23:28:54 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:28:54 -0000
Subject: The Rise and Fall of LV...(was Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hagjrm+v7vn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187942


I had an ulterior motive for the "Top Ten" question and I have to admit, the answers took an interesting turn. I'd like to comment on that later. Right now I'd like to try a different approach. 

Let's imagine Hogwarts of Albus Severus's day. I would guess there have been at least two new headmasters since Snape, and one would hope a new History of Magic teacher by now. What do you think would be taught by a good history professor about the Rise and Fall of Lord Voldemort? Which of the characters from both sides would get a place in the history books?  Briefly, what would be said about them? 

I'm just curious.

Potioncat
(Currently reading "Ladies of Liberty" by Cokie Roberts.)





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Oct  7 01:41:32 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 01:41:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
Message-ID: <hagrkc+gvga@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187943

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
(minus that extra space)

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone

Chapter Six: The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters

After Harry's day with Hagrid, the Dursleys ignore him for the remainder of the holidays. On 31st August, Vernon agrees to take him to Kings Cross but only because they are taking Dudley to have his tail removed. Once at the station, Harry begins to worry because he cannot finds the platform but meets the Weasleys who help him to the train; the twins assist him with his luggage and recognise him.

After the train leaves, Ron Weasley comes in and introduces himself. When it is confirmed that Harry is indeed who he is, he is rather in awe of him. They exchange information about their families and, In conversation, Harry learns about Chocolate Frogs and the cards and finds a picture of Dumbledore.

Later, Neville comes to the compartment looking for his toad. and returns again in the company of Hermione, who appears to be rather bossy; she is rather patronising to Ron about his spell. They introduce themselves and Hermione shocks Harry by revealing that he is mentioned in wizarding history books and talks about the Houses.

This discussion is interrupted by the entry of Draco Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle.  Draco is rude about the Weasleys and offers to help Harry to make friends, On extending his hand, Harry refuses to take it. Draco is angered and the scene seems set for a confrontation when Scabbers bites Goyle and the three visitors depart.

Hermione returns and Ron tells them both about the Malfoys. After Hermione tries to be bossy, the boys change into their uniforms as the train arrives. 

Hagrid meets the train, leads the First Years to where a small fleet of boats is moored. They embark and are carried across the lake, into an underground harbour below the castle. 

*****

1. Dumbledore seems to have left contact with Harry in the hands of Hagrid. What do you think would have happened if the Dursleys had refused to take Harry to Kings Cross? Was there a Plan B available? Being a special case, would it have made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts?

2. It seems strange that Harry should just happen to overhear Molly mentioning Muggles and particularly strange that she should ask for the platform number considering that all three of the boys had made at least one previous trip on the Hogwarts Express. Could this be a discreet way of manipulating Harry so that he meets the "right" people on his way who will slant his thinking towards Gryffindor?

3. Suppose Harry had not overheard this conversation? What then? Was there a Plan B here as well?

4. When Hermione first appears, she is described as having a "bossy voice" and she seems to behave in this way when she returns to the compartment after the incident with Malfoy. What was your first impression of Hermione? Did later events confirm this for you or not?

5. At this point in the story, do you see the friendship between Harry, Ron and Hermione taking off as it did later after the troll incident at Hallowe'en? On first reading, how would you have expected things to proceed?

6. What do you think prompted Draco's visit to the compartment? Do you think he genuinely wanted to make a friendly contact with Harry? If not, how do you interpret the contact? If he did want to strike up a relationship, what effect do you consider Harry's rejection had? What long term implications did there seem to be at this point in time? 

This is not intended to be a prescriptive list. If you have questions of your own which you would like to discuss, please include them in your posts.

Geoff

-------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 7, The Sorting Hat on October 13th.





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 10:42:50 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 10:42:50 -0000
Subject: Chapter 5 /  Evanesco / House System
In-Reply-To: <hae9tl+lmgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <haf6va+a782@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187944

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...>
> Potioncat:
> Who are you and how did you know what I deleted from my post?
> I actually made a reference to Brave New World, but decided it muddied the point I was making. So I took it out before I hit send.
>

Sent my house elf to watch you, I did.  She says you're mirrors need work, too.  And when's the last time you cleaned your glass or inside your oven?

> I don't remember what the other groups were told. Heck, when I last read BNW, 1984 was still the future.

Me too, about a decade before 1984, actually.


> In the case of Hogwarts, the members of a House are chosen according to the trait they value or possess. House placement doesn't limit their future or determine their lot in life.
>

That's only partially correct. There is a strong legacy component to the sorting, particularly for Slytherins.  Malfoy's family has always been in S.  As well as with they Griffs.  The Weasley's were all Griffs as was Potter's father.  Certainly S. seems to turn out a long stream of snot over the years--sorry, allergies acting up.

Of course, it's a plotting point for JKR; having all the main characters in one house made for easier plotting and writing.  Otherwise they'd all spend their time sending signals to arrange meetings and sneaking out to the owlery to get together to meet and have a smoke.

Granger was clearly more Ravenclaw material than Griff, I think.  But that would have been to difficult to manage.

Rick




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Oct  7 11:39:56 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 11:39:56 -0000
Subject: Chapter 5 /  Evanesco / House System
In-Reply-To: <haf6va+a782@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hahumc+cqo3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187945


> Rick:
> That's only partially correct. There is a strong legacy component to the sorting, particularly for Slytherins.  Malfoy's family has always been in S.  As well as with they Griffs.  The Weasley's were all Griffs as was Potter's father.  Certainly S. seems to turn out a long stream of snot over the years--sorry, allergies acting up.

Potioncat:
Plotting device, yes...but I think JKR does believe in "blood" to a certain extent. In that case, it would be reasonable that a family would share traits or values. 

Yet, it would be just as likely for some families to represent several houses. 
 

> Rick:
> Granger was clearly more Ravenclaw material than Griff, I think.  But that would have been to difficult to manage.

Potioncat:
She was offered Ravenclaw, but asked for Gryffindor. She said on the train that first year that Gryffindor was the best house. Again, the Sorting Hat taking preference into consideration.

As for me, I just wouldn't want to live in the underground dorms of Hufflepuff or Slytherin. But I'm not sure if I could convince the Sorting Hat to let me have Ravenclaw.




From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au  Wed Oct  7 12:20:21 2009
From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (norbertsmummy)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 12:20:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
In-Reply-To: <hagrkc+gvga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hai125+pmm2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187946


> *****
> 
> 1. ... if the Dursleys had refused to take Harry to Kings Cross? Was there a Plan B available? 
> 3. Suppose Harry had not overheard this conversation? What then? Was there a Plan B here as well?

AUSSIE:
Plan B was always, "If yer got a problem, jes send me yer owl" according to Hagrid.

1. (Cont) ... Being a special case, would it have made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts?

AUSSIE:
DD at one point explains that if Harry didn't stay with the Dursleys, he would never have the chance to grow up normal. He would always be "special". 
> 
> 2. It seems strange that Harry should just happen to overhear Molly mentioning Muggles ... Could this be ... manipulating Harry ... on his way ... towards Gryffindor?

AUSSIE:
Harry and the Weasleys were habitually late. I didn't mind that, of the hundreds of students boarding Hogwarts Express, a large family chatting amongst themselves were overheard.
The manipulating was only to steer Harry away from Slytherin. He would have been happy with Hufflepuff.
 

> 6. What do you think prompted Draco's visit to the compartment? ... a friendly contact with Harry? ... If he did want to strike up a relationship, what effect do you consider Harry's rejection had? What long term implications did there seem to be at this point in time? 

AUSSIE:
Lucius acted the same way with the Minister of Magic. "I can help you" trap. 
Draco had the chance to prove to Crabb and Goyle how irresistible his invitations were. For Harry to say no was like Goyle saying, "Draco, You fail! P-H-A-Y-L !"

Another new experience for Harry was being able to buy treats / gifts for friends. The Chocolate Frog card gave clues to Nicholas Flamel ... and to Gridelwalt (never to get a mention again until Book 7)

Aussie




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  7 17:17:25 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:17:25 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarter
In-Reply-To: <hagrkc+gvga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <haiif5+25sq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187947

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone
> 
> Chapter Six: The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
<snip excellent summary>

> 1. Dumbledore seems to have left contact with Harry in the hands of Hagrid. What do you think would have happened if the Dursleys had refused to take Harry to Kings Cross? Was there a Plan B available? Being a special case, would it have made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts?

Carol:
After the pig's tail incident, I doubt that the Dursleys would have caused trouble. Certainly, they didn't want Hagrid showing up on their doorstep! If Vernon had balked at taking Harry to King's Cross, I'm sure that Petunia would have spoken up and offered some argument that would have convinced him (without necessarily revealing her true motivation related to whatever was in the letter that DD left with Baby!Harry). As for a plan B, DD would certainly have come up with one if needed, but I think he knew it would not be necessary.
> 
> 2. It seems strange that Harry should just happen to overhear Molly mentioning Muggles and particularly strange that she should ask for the platform number considering that all three of the boys had made at least one previous trip on the Hogwarts Express. Could this be a discreet way of manipulating Harry so that he meets the "right" people on his way who will slant his thinking towards Gryffindor?

Carol:
Coincidence is common, almost routine, in the HP books. Whether it's related to Harry's luck, which is usually good, or is merely a plot device designed to get Harry where he needs to be, plausibly or not, I don't know. I don't think that Harry could have overlooked the Weasleys regardless of Molly's words--an oddly dressed mother with five red-haired kids, four of them with trunks and one with a caged owl. As for Molly's remark about Platform 9 3/4 (not strictly necessary for the plot since Harry could have followed them, anyway, and motherly Molly would have spotted him and helped him regardless), I think it's partly JKR informing a child reader unfamiliar with the WW that these people are a Wizarding family and partly just Molly preparing *Ginny* for next year, or possibly making sure that "ickle Ronnie" found his way to the train. Obviously, the Twins and Percy don't need help in that regard.
> 
> 3. Suppose Harry had not overheard this conversation? What then? Was there a Plan B here as well?

Carol:
As I said, I'm sure that he would have followed the Weasleys or spotted some other family that seemed out of place, especially it the kid involved was carrying a cat, a toad, or an owl. (Granted, a lot of them would be taken directly to Platform 9 3/4 by side-along Apparition, assuming that the parents knew how to reduce the trunk to manageable size, but the Muggle-borns would have arrived by taxi or car and he would have spotted someone. I rather think, though, that DD counted on his spotting the very conspicuous Weasleys.)
> 
> 4. When Hermione first appears, she is described as having a "bossy voice" and she seems to behave in this way when she returns to the compartment after the incident with Malfoy. What was your first impression of Hermione? Did later events confirm this for you or not?

Carol:
I didn't like her contempt for Ron's spell (even though it was pretty clearly a fake one) or her "Let's see it, then." It's possible to be a leader without being bossy, but I don't think Hermione ever learned that lesson. She just takes charge whether others want her to or not. (At least, she learns how to get along with people and develops some understanding of psychology--notably Cho's and Sirius Black's--but she'll never be a people person.
> 
> 5. At this point in the story, do you see the friendship between Harry, Ron and Hermione taking off as it did later after the troll incident at Hallowe'en? On first reading, how would you have expected things to proceed?

Carol:
It was clear from the outset that Ron and Harry would be friends, but I don't think I expected Hermione to join in the friendship. She seemed like a secondary character, a stereotyped bossy know-it-all, as did Neville, who was just the forgetful boy who kept losing his toad.
> 
> 6. What do you think prompted Draco's visit to the compartment? Do you think he genuinely wanted to make a friendly contact with Harry? If not, how do you interpret the contact? If he did want to strike up a relationship, what effect do you consider Harry's rejection had? What long term implications did there seem to be at this point in time?

Carol:
Draco had, of course, already met Harry, and he was probably a bit embarrassed not to have recognized the Boy who Lived (odd that he didn't, come to think of it, considering Harry's reception in the Leaky Cauldron). Now that he knows who Harry is, he's probably curious about him and thinks it would add to his prestige to be the friend of someone famous, especially if he can make that friend one of *his* gang and introduce him to the WW. He's probably heard the DE speculations that Potter must be a powerful Dark Wizard to have defeated the Dark Lord when he, Potter, was only a baby. And his father may have talked with him and encouraged him to offer his friendship, either to be "prudent" (disguising his true loyalties) or to find out more about him. At any rate, I'm quite sure that Draco is unaware that he's a snob and a bully, taking his own behavior for granted as normal for a Pure-Blood "aristocrat," and views Harry's rejection of him (especially in favor of a Weasley) as a slap in the face. It probably motivates or at least intensifies his obnoxiousness toward Harry (and Ron) throughout the books, but he's also clearly jealous of Harry and later contemptuous of his and Ron's friendship with Hermione. Altogether, I think that Draco from the beginning is more complex than he appears to be (we glimpse his feelings in CoS), but since we see him through Harry's eyes, his emotions remain unexplored until HBP when he undergoes his own identity crisis.

Sidenote:
I find it interesting that Draco in an earlier chapter divides the WW into Us and Them, our kind and "the other kind," with "the other kind" meaning Muggle-borns. Half-Bloods are either left out of the picture or classed with Us as having Wizarding blood. (Note Lucius Malfoy's sneer at Hermione as "a girl of no Wizarding family" in CoS.) So the unknown boy in Madam Malfoy's shop (on whom he reserves judgment until he learns his surname) may not be from one the "best" families, but Draco has no objection to chatting with him about Hogwarts, Houses, and Hagrid as long as he has at least one Wizarding parent.

Carol, who can't think of any other questions for this chapter at the moment




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 17:49:36 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:49:36 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 5 /  Evanesco / House System
In-Reply-To: <18071221.1254915938604.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <18071221.1254915938604.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ACCD4B0.7040002@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187948



  potioncat wrote:
>
> Potioncat:
> She was offered Ravenclaw, but asked for Gryffindor. She said on the 
> train that first year that Gryffindor was the best house. Again, the 
> Sorting Hat taking preference into consideration.
>
> As for me, I just wouldn't want to live in the underground dorms of 
> Hufflepuff or Slytherin. But I'm not sure if I could convince the 
> Sorting Hat to let me have Ravenclaw.
>
> .
>

Well, if that's true, why would anybody want to be an also-ran like 
Hufflepuff? 
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 17:44:04 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:44:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Rise and Fall of LV...(was Re: Wizarding Top
 Ten
In-Reply-To: <100251.1254872180284.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <100251.1254872180284.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ACCD364.4060903@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187949

potioncat wrote:
>  
>
>
> I had an ulterior motive for the "Top Ten" question and I have to 
> admit, the answers took an interesting turn. I'd like to comment on 
> that later. Right now I'd like to try a different approach.
>





I'll bite. 

First of all, there is no evidence Professor Binns would have got up to 
19th century, much less modern history.  In fact, once he'd set his 
curriculum before he died, there isn't any evidence he COULD add new 
material.  He just kept giving the same lecture series over and over and 
over--as he'd done while alive.   That said, however, one generation is 
not enough to write the whole history of what happened (you only have to 
compare the Wizard of Oz to story the that emerges in Wicked to know 
there were two sides of the story.)  There is still considerable debate 
about certain aspects of WWII and clearly broad differences concerning 
the history of our involvement in the Vietnam war. 

Certainly McGonagall, Flintwick, Trewlawny, et. al., being academics, 
deserve great credit for heroic actions and holding the fort until the 
alumni calvary arrived.  As do the main student characters, the student 
body that stayed, and Dumbledore.  The truth about Snape will remain 
ambiguous and subject to interpretation because Harry just didn't make 
the time to write down what he was saw and only passed down an oral 
history.  The pensieve will be sold when Hogwarts is closed by the EPA 
because of all the unhealthy candle and cauldron fumes and end up on 
Trelawney's great granddaughter's dinner table holding wax fruit, until 
it is broken during her eviction. 

But if it's written well, the REAL history will be made up of lots of 
little vignettes told by insignificant actors and stitched together like 
a quilt--I'm a fan of Howard Zinn-style history and don't care for the 
Great Man interpretations.  Then the JKR canon stands as a pretty fair 
telling of events and will be even more so when (and if) the Scottish 
Book is published.  There are many gaps in the final battle that need to 
be filled in, though.  Moonie and Tonks are dead, but there's no clue 
how they died on the steps of Hogwarts.  I'd like to imagine that Lupin 
sacrificed himself by taking a hit meant for Tonks, that Tonks took out 
the DE that killed Lupin and was then mercifully back shot by another 
DE--but that's just the romantic in me.  Of course, in all the confusion 
of combat, the fortunes of war dictate that Lupin and Tonks would have 
more than likely have been hit--unheroicly--by a deflected or ducked 
curse and were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.  I hope the 
first story makes it into the history. 

It will be the generation after Albus Severus's or his children where 
the historical mischief will happen.  I imagine that the well-heeled, 
"pure blooded" aristocracy of the wizarding world, such as the Malfoys, 
will become the equal of modern day Holocaust deniers or those who 
believed we could have won Vietnam at Tet. There will be a lot of 
rewriting of events, erasing of details, and blurring of lines.  The 
Ministry of Magic will, being the kind of beast it is, write the 
official history to show itself--it's misteps and shortfallings--in the 
best possible, all knowing light. 

Of course, I worry about Harry--peaking early in life, nothing will 
compare to the vitality and engagement of high school, war and fame 
rolled into life before his 18th year.  How can the rest of life be 
anything less than disappointing?  I saw this a lot with my Vietnam 
cohort--we'll be seeing it with our Iraqi veterans and my Dad's WWII 
generation.  There is no curse in life greater than peaking early.  I 
remember early in my career an accountant--former medevac helicopter 
pilot in VN with some 1500 missions and who had to walk home several 
times when his bird was shot out from under him--who was let go because 
he just didn't seem thrilled with business and the start-up world.  
After having lived that, who would be thrilled with turning a galleon?  
What was that Churchill said?  There's nothing quite as exhilarating as 
being shot at and missed?  Something like that.  Mr. Weasley will finish 
out a better, more rewarding, and more interesting career unjinxing 
toilets than Potter as an Auror after LV's downfall. 

I imagine Harry dying a divorced, dissolute drunk at the Veteran of 
Wizards War hall. Ginny understanding his predicament but hanging on too 
long ends up a lonely broken single mom.  And AS, succumbing to the 
pressure of growing up in his father's shadow, will waste his life 
free-basing Kneasel droppings.  Hg?  That's just too sad to even think 
about.  She eventually gives up wizarding, goes to college to get a 
proper education, and becomes a dentist like her parents, writing 
childrens books on the side.  Ron joins her and, making use of his 
drivers license, becomes a long haul trucker hauling fruit out of 
California and hauling migrant elves into the country to displace the 
too expensive native born slave elves.  He works, of course, for a gang 
of goblin.

Peeves.

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From a1.mills at portset.net  Wed Oct  7 17:35:02 2009
From: a1.mills at portset.net (Andrew)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:35:02 +0100
Subject: Question re: muggles and dementors
Message-ID: <200910071554.n97Fso3V026005@post.portset.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 187950

Hello, I don't post very often but something is bothering me.  I was listening to part of book 7 yesterday, the chapter where Harry went to try and get food and couldn't produce a patronus because he was wearing the locket horcrux.  It said that, although the muggles couldn't see the dementors, they could feel the despair and misery all around them.  This means that, as far as I can tell, muggles wouldn't be able to see dementors but could to some extent feel the effects of them.  Why, then, was Dudley so badly affected by the two dementors in book 5?  The effect on him was pretty extreme, more like the effect on a wizard.  Did he have some minute trace of magical blood which enabled him to see the dementors?  If the effect on Dudley was similar to the effect on a magical person, what was he experiencing when he saw the dementors?  Was his more friendly attitude towards Harry in book 7 connected with what he experienced when he saw the dementors?  I know he acknowledged the fact that Harry saved him from the dementors, but was there more to it than just that?  I'd be interested to hear other people's theories.

AJM



From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 22:23:42 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:23:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question re: muggles and dementors
In-Reply-To: <4961129.1254948395454.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <4961129.1254948395454.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ACD14EE.6000804@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187951



Andrew wrote:
>  
>
> Was his more friendly attitude towards Harry in book 7 connected with 
> what he experienced when he saw the dementors? I know he acknowledged 
> the fact that Harry saved him from the dementors, but was there more 
> to it than just that? I'd be interested to hear other people's theories.
>
>
> _

We find out in Book 7 that Petunia was a squib.  I always thought that 
some of "that" flowed down to Duds.

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Thu Oct  8 01:43:27 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 21:43:27 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question re: muggles and dementors
Message-ID: <bbc.4d92cfa1.37fe9dbf@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187952

 
In a message dated 10/7/2009 6:11:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
rhkennerly at gmail.com writes:

We  find out in Book 7 that Petunia was a squib. I always thought that 
some of  "that" flowed down to Duds.


 
Huh?  I'm not sure if you are kidding around or not however just in  case 
you aren't then: no Petunia is not a Squib as her parents were not  magical.
 
I think that since Dudley was in such close proximity to them he was able  
to discern something.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Oct  8 01:46:01 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 01:46:01 -0000
Subject: Question re: muggles and dementors
In-Reply-To: <4ACD14EE.6000804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hajg8p+la9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187953



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Andrew wrote:
> >  
> >
> > Was his more friendly attitude towards Harry in book 7 connected with 
> > what he experienced when he saw the dementors? I know he acknowledged 
> > the fact that Harry saved him from the dementors, but was there more 
> > to it than just that? I'd be interested to hear other people's theories.


Potioncat:
Well, if Muggles can feel the dispair, I'd say Dudley felt it. The Dementors were right on him, and were going to attack him along with Harry. I don't see it as inconsistent.
> >

 _
> Rick:
> We find out in Book 7 that Petunia was a squib.  I always thought that some of "that" flowed down to Duds.


Potioncat:
Erm, no. It isn't that Petunia didn't have magic, it was that Lily did. Lily and Petunia are Muggle-born. Lily was the first in the family to have magic. 





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  8 07:20:53 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 07:20:53 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarter
In-Reply-To: <hagrkc+gvga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hak3sl+j8k4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187954

---  "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone
> 
> Chapter Six: The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
> 
> ...
> 
> *****
> 
> 1. Dumbledore seems to have left contact with Harry in the hands of Hagrid. What do you think would have happened if the Dursleys had refused to take Harry to Kings Cross? Was there a Plan B available? Being a special case, would it have made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts?
> 

bboyminn:

I've always thought that Dumbledore was having a private laugh
to himself in sending Hagrid to assist Harry. I think Dumbledore
would find sending a giant to fetch Harry to be very impessive 
for Harry, and very amusing to himself.

Plus Hagrid has been involved with Harry since the very beginning.
I think Dumbledore felt that Hagrid has a real stake in Harry's
life, and as such, had a real right to take part in bringing
Harry to Hogwarts.

Now as far as Hagrid being the contact person, well, he was the
only wizard that Harry knew, and a letter to Hagrid is as good
as a letter to Dumbledore. Although I don't think Harry would have
been comfortable writing to Dumbledore, a headmaster, a respected
wizard, and a stranger. 

Now he might have seen McGonagall's name of the Hogwart's letter,
and assumed that she might be the person to contact. 

However, if he was forced to write because the Dursley's were
giving him a problem, I think Harry would have felt better 
writing to both a friend and someone who had the clear power to
intimidate the Dursley's. 

I don't think Harry would have ever refused himself. Hogwarts
and the wizard world were too much of a connection to his dead
parents, and he would have done anything to have a stronger
link to them. 

As to 'Plan B', I think it was probably a, we'll deal with it
when we come to it, situation. There was no planned out 'Plan
B', but certainly Dumbledore would have given Harry every chance
and every means to come to the school if he wanted to. 

As to arranging an alternate method for Harry to arrive at
school, I think not. I think Harry rode on the train because
Dumbledore wanted Harry's experience to be as normal as 
possible, and I suspect many first years met their friends on
that long train ride to the school. I think, if it was at all
possible, the train was Dumbledore's preferred method. 


> 2. It seems strange that Harry should just happen to overhear Molly mentioning Muggles and particularly strange that she should ask for the platform number considering that all three of the boys had made at least one previous trip on the Hogwarts Express. Could this be a discreet way of manipulating Harry so that he meets the "right" people on his way who will slant his thinking towards Gryffindor?
>

bboyminn:

I think likely the Wealsey's stood out in a crowd, what with all
the kids having flaming red hair, and they tend to be a somewhat
outspoken family. Rarely do the Weasley's ever move quietly
about anywhere. So, I don't doubt that Harry would pick them out
of the crowd and zero in on them.

Though I do think Molly's comment muggles and the platform
number were a little contrived. We've discussed this here before. Molly has already had several kids go to Hogwarts, so she 
probably mutters the platform number in her sleep, she knows 
it so well. I mean there is only ONE magical platrom; it's not
like she was saying, well what platform are they using this year.
The bool later clearly states that there is only one. 

But, as a read I understand that JKR had to do something to get
Harry to follow the Weasley's, and it seemed to work; I didn't
question it at the time. 

As to their meeting being contrived by Dumbledore, I doubt it.
If that were true, then why not just have Molly keep an eye
out, and approach Harry and introduce herself. Seems simple
enough, and I can't see any negative consequences in doing so. 

But, I think JKR wanted Harry to proceed with uncertainty. I 
think she wanted us to feel how anxious Harry was in that
moment. 

 
> 3. Suppose Harry had not overheard this conversation? What then? Was there a Plan B here as well?
> 

bboyminn:

I sure Dumbledore or McGonagall, had casual thoughtof what they
would do if things we awry. But I don't think there was a plan.
However, if an alternate course of action became necessary, I
don't think they would have been at a loss for what to do. 

If you are referring to meeting the Weasley's, I'm sure they 
would have met eventually, it would have just taken longer. 
So, in this regard, I see no need for a Plan B here. They 
were both going to spend 10 month out of the year for the
next 7 years living in the same room and going to the same 
classes. They were likely to become friends anyway. 


> 4. When Hermione first appears, she is described as having a "bossy voice" and she seems to behave in this way when she returns to the compartment after the incident with Malfoy. What was your first impression of Hermione? Did later events confirm this for you or not?
> 

bboyminn:

I never gave much though to Hermione, though I assumed they
would eventually be friends. When a character is introduced
this early and with this level of prominence, she is certainly
going to be significant in the story. The only logical way she
could be significant would be to become of friend and ally of
Harry's. 

Perhaps that was a less than sound assumption on my part, but
it seemed to work out.


> 5. At this point in the story, do you see the friendship between Harry, Ron and Hermione taking off as it did later after the troll incident at Hallowe'en? On first reading, how would you have expected things to proceed?
> 

bboyminn:

I intuitively assumed it from the beginning, that they would 
become friends, but Harry's comment about tackling a troll 
together cemented it.


> 6. What do you think prompted Draco's visit to the compartment? Do you think he genuinely wanted to make a friendly contact with Harry? If not, how do you interpret the contact? If he did want to strike up a relationship, what effect do you consider Harry's rejection had? What long term implications did there seem to be at this point in time? 
> 
> 

bboyminn:

This has also been a much discussed subject, and my opinion has
never wavered on it.

I think, in a sense, Draco sees himself as a Prince of the wizard
world. He grew up in power and privilege and assumes that just
how things are. He sees himself as an aristocrat, inherently 
better than those commoners around him. 

I think he assumed that when he arrived at Hogwarts he would
be admired, adored, and envied by everyone. 

I think Draco went to Harry's compartment with the full intension
of making Harry his friend. But, not to be Harry's friend, but
to make Harry his friend; one of his fawning admirers. 

And he might have stood a chance of forging a polite grudging
friendship. If he has only NOT insulted Ron Weasley and the
Weasley family. By the time Draco had shown up, Harry had 
already started to like Ron, and the beginning of their
friendship was forged. 

Draco made the arrogant mistake of making his handshake 
conditional, by accepting me and my handshake, you are rejecting
him, Ron. Harry simply couldn't shake Draco's hand under the
impossible conditions that Draco had set.

Harry is a very polite well mannered boy, I'm sure he would
shake anyone's hand simply out of courtesy, but Draco made
that basic act of courtesy impossible for Harry, and more
importantly, I'm not sure Draco ever understood this.

When Harry refused his handshake, Draco was genuinely hurt
by it. It would be like meeting Prince Harry, and refusing
to shake his hand. I think that hurt and that slight are
what turned Draco against Harry for the entire series. To
think that someone like Harry would choose a common Weasley
over himself, was impossible for him to fathom or to accept.

If he couldn't raise Harry up above the Weasley's then he would
have to take him down a peg or two. And from that point on
taking Harry down became an obsession. Yet we see that
Draco is not very good at it. Every attempt to bring Harry
down, ultimately ended up hurting Draco more, and thereby
infuriating him more. Then he turned to more dark and 
desperate way of taking Harry down, which in turn all went
badly for him.

Now back to one other aspect that had to drive Draco nuts.
He expected himself to be the King of the School, yet once
'the famous Harry Potter' arrive, all eyes were on Harry 
instead of Draco, which is where they belonged. Poor Draco,
driven by anger and envy to continually make the wrong 
choice, and to continually hurt himself far more than he
ever hurt Harry. 

Later though, when things move beyond schoolyard taunts, Draco
gets himself in WAY over his head. I think to some extent
he felt he had to take his father's place in the family. To
uphold the name of Malfoy, but he found that schoolboy 
taunts were a lot easier than have to do dark and dangerous
things like kill people. 

In a small way, I felt sorry for Draco. His whole pattern of
'aristocratic' thinking, brought him nothing but misery and
pain. I think by the end, he had learned a little humility. We
don't see Draco and Harry as friends at the end, but we don't 
see them as enemies either. They seem to maintain a polite
distant acceptance of each other. And, I think given all that
happened, that is indeed something.

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  8 07:29:28 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 07:29:28 -0000
Subject: Question re: muggles and dementors
In-Reply-To: <200910071554.n97Fso3V026005@post.portset.net>
Message-ID: <hak4co+b57p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187955

---  Andrew <a1.mills at ...> wrote:
>
> ...  Why, then, was Dudley so badly affected by the two dementors in book 5?  The effect on him was pretty extreme, more like the effect on a wizard.  ... I know he acknowledged the fact that Harry saved him from the dementors, but was there more to it than just that?  I'd be interested to hear other people's theories.
> 
> AJM
>

bboyminn:

Keep in mind that when the Dementors attacked Harry and Dudley,
they didn't just hover at a distance feeding on their feelings.

They went in for the kill, that made direct contact with Harry
and Dudley, and were intent of taking their souls with the
'Kiss'. 

I think it was the extent of this direct contact that so
affected Dudley, and I think while Dudley is physically strong,
he is not very mentally strong or complex. I don't see Dudley
being able to resist or recover as well has Harry did. 

One thing that always annoyed me, is that when the Dursley's
were so concerned about poor Duddy-kins, that Harry didn't 
suggest that they have some hot cocoa or some chocolate. It
would have done them both some good, and seeing Dudley improve
would have certainly calmed the Durselys. Just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  8 08:36:54 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 08:36:54 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hacped+q00s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hak8b6+kqvl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187956

potioncat wrote:

> Name the 10 most noteworthy good guys and the 10 most despicable bad guys from the Harry Potter series. It's not necessary to rank the 10 (unless you particularly want to), just decide who belongs in those 2 top ten lists.

Joey's take:

10 most noteworthy good people:

1. Hermione [For the intense concern she has for her loved ones / oppressed which she shows in the form of solid action; her conscience]
2. Harry [For his "saving people thing"]
3. Neville [For his noteworthy progress from most timid to most brave]
4. Ron [For whatever he was in The Silver Doe chapter & beyond]
5. Dobby [For being a caring and yes, free elf]
6. Molly & Arthur [For their broad-minded nature to consider Harry as their own; they didn't *have* to]
7. Cedric [For his fairplay act in the third task]
8. Kingsley [For his mature remarks on "Wizards first"]
9. Lupin [For his encouraging approach towards teaching students despite feeling quite low himself deep down]
10. Madam Pomfrey [For her focus on healing people instead of finding the cause of the injury]

Actually, there are many more people I find good / lovable. :-)

10 most despicable characters:

1. Greyback
2. Bellatrix & Barty Crouch Jr [followed by the entire DE lot]
3. Tom Riddle
4. Umbridge
5. The Gaunts [Both father & son]
6. Aragog
7. Muriel
8. Rita Skeeter
9. Filch
10. Pansy Parkinson 

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 10:59:00 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 06:59:00 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question re: muggles and dementors
In-Reply-To: <30783813.1254966535775.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <30783813.1254966535775.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ACDC5F4.7060101@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187957

Meliss9900 at aol.com wrote:
>  
>
>
> Huh? I'm not sure if you are kidding around or not however just in case
> you aren't then: no Petunia is not a Squib as her parents were not 
> magical.
>
> 

So explain Petunia's sister Lily and Hg, who were from non-magical folks 
as well.  After all, Petunia did manage to write the Headmaster of 
Hogwarts on her own (book 7, Prince's Tale).  The young Snape theorized 
that the MoM must have agents in the postal service (Book 7, The 
Prince's Tale), but the evidence is ambiguous whether Petunia and 
Hogwarts used owl post or regular postal services. 

Since the same muggle parent produced both Lily (who had extraordinary 
powers as a child) and Petunia, plus we also know because there are 
squibs that there is a continuum of magical powers from DD/LV to squibs 
(Filch/Figg) to muggles--indeed not all fully qualified wizarding people 
are endowed equally with magic, as JKR makes clear throughout the 
canon--so it is not inconceivable that Petunia was some sort of very low 
level squib, particularly since her parents had produced a witch.

On re-reading, however, the juvenile Snape seems clearly convinced that 
Petunia is purely muggle--but like all kids he's also quite dualistic at 
this point in his life (on/off, black/white, wizard/muggle).  I'm ready 
to concede the point, though, since Petunia's deeper knowledge of the 
wizarding world could have been gained from her spying on Lily and 
Snape.  Strangely retentive memory, though, in OOP when Petunia confirms 
the existence of dementors to Vernon, after having heard about them as a 
child.

Regarding Dudley, I'd contend some small amount of wizarding blood--the 
ability to sense an unknown and unseen world--that might have allowed 
Duds to be more "tuned" to the dementors.  But it is also clear from the 
beginning chapters of Book 6 where Fudge visits the muggle PM, that even 
the dimmest muggles can be affected by what's happening in the wizarding 
world (bad moods from the unnatural fog in July caused by dementors 
mating, the storm in the west country, the fallen bridge).  So having a 
dementor that close may have made any of use mad. 

Remember, though, that JKR's work is based on our deepest beliefs that 
we can all sometimes sense and believe in an unseen world. 


Peeves

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Thu Oct  8 14:20:38 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:20:38 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question re: muggles and dementors
Message-ID: <d1f.4b6d5d16.37ff4f36@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187958

 
In a message dated 10/8/2009 6:18:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
rhkennerly at gmail.com writes:

So  explain Petunia's sister Lily and Hg, who were from non-magical folks 
as  well. 


 
Rick writes:
 
I don't have to explain.  JKR did it quite well herself when she  had Ron 
explain it to us in COS.  But from JKR's web site : " A  Squib is almost the 
exact opposite of a Muggle-born wizard: He or she is a  non-magical person 
born to at least one magical parent." 
 
I believe that we all agree that Lily & Petunia's parents  were muggles. If 
so it means that Petunia cannot be a squib  because neither of her parents 
were magical.  
 
Melissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Oct  8 14:21:22 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:21:22 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
In-Reply-To: <hagrkc+gvga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <haksh2+cpdg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187959

 
> *****
> 
> 1. Dumbledore seems to have left contact with Harry in the hands of Hagrid. What do you think would have happened if the Dursleys had refused to take Harry to Kings Cross? Was there a Plan B available? Being a special case, would it have made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts?

Pippin:
Hagrid had already made it plain that no Muggles were going to stop Harry from attending Hogwarts. If he hadn't shown up or sent an owl, someone would have been sent to fetch him. The Dursleys were laughing as they left King's Cross, though. If Harry wanted to put himself in the hands of the madmen who got his parents murdered, abandoned him in the first place, and now, suddenly and unaccountably (to the Dursleys) want him back again, let him go, and see how he likes it.

As for Dumbledore, the more he can appear to treat Harry like any other wizarding child, the better it will suit his plans.  

> 
> 2. It seems strange that Harry should just happen to overhear Molly mentioning Muggles and particularly strange that she should ask for the platform number considering that all three of the boys had made at least one previous trip on the Hogwarts Express. Could this be a discreet way of manipulating Harry so that he meets the "right" people on his way who will slant his thinking towards Gryffindor?

Pippin:
We don't know if Ron or Ginny had ever been to King's Cross before. In any case, Molly has five children and three baggage trolleys to manage. She'd want to make sure that everyone knows where they're supposed to go in case they get separated, especially since Fred and George would probably think it very funny to tell Ron or Ginny that the platform number had been changed.

As for slanting Harry's thinking towards Gryffindor, I'm not sure anyone ever thought that was necessary. Dumbledore's plan at this point is only to be sure Harry lives long enough to help him find and destroy the one horcrux that he assumes must exist, IMO. I don't think he *planned* to make Harry noble enough to voluntarily give his life in order to rid the world of Voldemort. Indeed, I think Dumbledore expected the opposite; that Harry would never cooperate with the horcrux project if he knew that he himself had no chance of living in a Voldemort free world. 


> 3. Suppose Harry had not overheard this conversation? What then? Was there a Plan B here as well?

Pippin:
We'll see in Year Two what happens when Harry does not arrive on the train . McGonagall says then he should have sent  an owl. If Hagrid hadn't provided Hedwig for him, I think Dumbledore would have made sure Harry had some other way to keep in touch. 

> 
> 4. When Hermione first appears, she is described as having a "bossy voice" and she seems to behave in this way when she returns to the compartment after the incident with Malfoy. What was your first impression of Hermione? Did later events confirm this for you or not?

Pippin:
IIRC, I had her pegged as a major character and Ron's future love interest as soon as she told him he had dirt on his nose. It's a pretty standard plot development: the hero will fall for the first eligible female he sees. Ginny, being Ron's sister, counted for Harry but not for Ron. 

> 
> 6. What do you think prompted Draco's visit to the compartment? Do you think he genuinely wanted to make a friendly contact with Harry? If not, how do you interpret the contact? If he did want to strike up a relationship, what effect do you consider Harry's rejection had? What long term implications did there seem to be at this point in time? 

Pippin:
I think Draco was genuinely curious and genuinely suprised to be rebuffed. I imagine people in the Malfoy circle either like Draco or think it would be prudent to pretend to. And he couldn't imagine anyone actually wanting to be friends with blood-traitors like the Weasleys or a savage like Hagrid. He really thought he was offering Harry a better choice.

My impression was  that the Malfoy family were survivors and would somehow manage to come through it all, smelling like a rose but not much changed. 

Pippin
 






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  8 14:47:33 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:47:33 -0000
Subject: Question re: muggles and dementors
In-Reply-To: <4ACDC5F4.7060101@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <haku25+tmue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187960

Rick wrote:
> So explain Petunia's sister Lily and Hg, who were from non-magical folks as well.  <snip>
> 
> Since the same muggle parent produced both Lily (who had extraordinary powers as a child) and Petunia, plus we also know because there are squibs that there is a continuum of magical powers from DD/LV to squibs (Filch/Figg) to muggles--indeed not all fully qualified wizarding people are endowed equally with magic, as JKR makes clear throughout the canon--so it is not inconceivable that Petunia was some sort of very low level squib, particularly since her parents had produced a witch.
<snip>
> 
> Regarding Dudley, I'd contend some small amount of wizarding blood--the ability to sense an unknown and unseen world--that might have allowed Duds to be more "tuned" to the dementors.  <snip>

>Carol responds:

Possibly you're thinking of a Squib as a person with very weak magical powers regardless of parentage. But a Squib is the nonmagical child of at least one Wizarding parent. (Whether a Squib's magic is just very weak, as in, say, the ability to communicate with cats but not much else, or missing altogether is unclear.) but the point is, a Squib is in a sense the opposite of a Muggle-born Witch or Wizard like Lily, who has two Muggle parents but is nevertheless magical.

If two Muggles have a magical child, it's a Muggle-born.
If two Muggles have a nonmagical child, it's a Muggle.
If two magical parents or one magical and one Muggle parent have a magical child, it's a Pure-blood or Half-Blood Witch or Wizard.
If two magical parents or one magical and one Muggle parent have a nonmagical child, it's a Squib.

Petunia can't be a Squib because both her parents are Muggles. She's just a Muggle like them.

As for Dudley (also just a Muggle), as someone pointed out, the Dementor was so close to him that it was trying to suck out his soul. (Luckily, on Harry's advice, he had both hands pressed tightly over his mouth.) Of course, in that position, he was forced to relive his worst memories. (The same thing happened to Hagrid in Azkaban and to Harry even with a Boggart Dementor.) Dudley, being a Muggle, couldn't actually see the Dementor, but he could not only sense its presence, possibly hear its rasping breath, he could probably feel its horrible bony hands on his wrists trying to pry his hands away from his mouth.

Carol, hoping that this post clarifies the matter





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Oct  8 15:27:38 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:27:38 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <had98e+idnj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hal0da+5nat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187961


 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, Draco is not self proclaimed character who often speaks for the author, right? Therefore I think it is a bit easier to argue both sides whether author agrees with his contentions or not.
> 
> I am actually curious, what  positive developments were coming  for Slytherin house after Prince tale, because I do not remember any. Snape did his job and dead. Slughorn is already there. We already know about Regulus' story.

Pippin:
Huh? Slughorn doesn't return until just before the final duel with Voldemort.  JKR's closing argument is Snape, Hogwarts headmaster and probably the bravest man that Harry ever knew. He is the last Slytherin mentioned in the story.

Potioncat:
In the beginning Harry is judging Slytherin by Hagrid's comments, and by his interaction with Draco (at the Sorting Hat). But as the series unfolds, every contact with Slytherins is a bad one. We have Snape, the Slytherin Quidditch team, Draco, etc. There is never so much as a neutral interaction. There are a couple of Slytherins that we never see Harry interact with, but nothing else. So we are never given any reason to think there might be more to Slytherins.

Pippin:
Um, I can't believe you've forgotten all the things we always point to to show that Slytherins weren't all bad, starting with Snape saving Harry's life. I suppose what you mean is that *Harry* doesn't view any of it positively almost to the end. But that's the way prejudice works, isn't it? You don't need proof in order to believe the bad stuff, but you'll do your best to ignore, deny or discredit anything good.

I think the Slytherins who stand for Harry in GoF rank as one of the great lost opportunities in canon, right up there with Snape not hearing Lily when she says his friends are evil. Here's a bunch of kids telling the world they are on Harry's side, literally "standing up to their friends" and Harry completely ignores them.

Potioncat:
I'm just not sure that the reader, and perhaps JKR herself, doesn't think that Snape and Slughorn were the exception to Slytherin---just like Lily was different from the other Muggle-borns. (Wait a minute, I'm proving your point,aren't I?) But my point is that I don't think very many would get it.

Pippin:

I think they get the overall point.  

Of course Snape and Slughorn were exceptions, just as Lily was. If Snape was probably the bravest man that Harry ever knew, he'd be exceptional in any house, Gryffindor included. Harry is critical of  Slughorn for implying that Muggleborns wouldn't have their share of outstanding students. We're left to ask ourselves why the same wouldn't apply to Slytherin itself. 

If we never ask, it doesn't change the overall message. It just leaves Slytherin House as unrealistically bad. 

Potioncat:
But I'd like to ask this, "I'm laughing over the idea that there's no reversal re Slytherin House." Do you mean you think Slytherin House changed, or Harry's view of Slytherin House changed? Or that the readers' view of Slytherin should change by the ending? What do you think the Slytherin House of Al's day willlook like?

Because I' m wondering what it is that makes Al afraid of being Slytherin? Is it that he's afraid he won't make Gryffindor, and the idea of any other house is unsatisfactory? Is it that his drive to excel has earned him some teasing, andhe's denying his inner ambition? And again, I'm not sure that JKR doesn't think
Snape and Horace are exceptions.

Pippin:
Hmmm. If the characteristics of the Houses aren't stable across the generations, then we have absolutely no data on the Slytherins of Al's day. OTOH, if they are, then the examples of Snape's generation should be just as relevant as the examples of Draco's, and we don't need to have a Regulus or a Snape in Harry's year to prove that there could be a person like that in Al's. 

I would say that Harry's view of the House expanded. The Hat does seem to try to steer abnormal children into Slytherin, and they stand out there because they'd stand out anywhere. But how many wizarding kids are abnormal? Certainly not a quarter of the population. 

How many wizards actually join Voldemort, really join him, not just go along because they are hexed or frightened? A quarter of them? No way. There's thirty wizards in the graveyard. That's not much to show for fifty years worth of recruiting.

I see Al as a worrier. He knows he's not  confident and brash like his brother, and he worries that it means he's not brave enough to be a Gryffindor. I'm sure he's wished he could give his overbearing brother a thumping good hex once in a while, and worried about that too. So he thinks maybe he's not really a brave or good person, and the Hat will see that and put him in Slytherin. 

I'm not so sure Harry just knows there's nothing wrong with Al...he himself never suspected he had a bit of Voldemort stuck to the inside of his head. When he says it won't make any difference to him, I don't think that's because he can't conceive of Al ever doing something really terrible, whether he's in Gryffindor or not. If Albus Dumbledore could kill his sister, then anyone could kill someone else. 

Gryffindors don't generally plot to kill people, but they can, they have, lashed out in anger or desperation with lethal results. Voldemort, you'll notice, never did that -- not until he got a bit of Harry in him. 

I think both boys know that Slytherin has a troubled past, but that they're not supposed to use "Slytherin" as an insult. Which creates a perfect opportunity for James to use it the way some RL middle schooler use "gay". I don't think James seriously thinks his brother is a potential dark wizard -- he's just being annoying in order to get attention, and he knows he can wrong-foot his parents if they call him on it.

Pippin









From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  8 15:44:57 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:44:57 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <hal0da+5nat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hal1dp+coav@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187962


> Pippin:
> Huh? Slughorn doesn't return until just before the final duel with Voldemort.  JKR's closing argument is Snape, Hogwarts headmaster and probably the bravest man that Harry ever knew. He is the last Slytherin mentioned in the story. <SNIP>

Alla:

And as I repeated several times my argument is that author argues throughout the 7 book especially that Snape is not the typical Slytherin. Exactly proves my point IMO, Snape is indeed the last Slytherin mentioned in the story. Slytherin who is praised by Harry for his courage, a quality which determines Gryffindors, not brains or ambition. I know if you ask me Harry being way overgenerous with him as it is, but really? Snape is a brilliant potion maker if nothing else, right? Snape fooled Voldemort for years, for years. I, who hate Snape with all my heart and hope he burns in whatever version of hell Potterverse has acknowledge it. I think it is done very deliberately that even at the end, even in the epilogue when Harry mind you in his thirties the ONLY thing he praises Snape for is his courage.

You  may say but that is a big shift for Harry already, that is what he knows the best, courage, etc and I will say, sorry, I do not think it is relevant for my argument. I think if author wanted us to judge Slytherin house by Snape, she would have shown that he is praised for his brains as well, for what he wanted to achieve, I don't know, how about showing that annoying book of his to be a text book, etc.


Again, I am not arguing with you that Snape's actions are shown as heroic, far from it. What I am saying is that I do not think author wants me to judge Slytherin house based on Snape.

JMO,

Alla







From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 17:01:54 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 13:01:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question re: muggles and dementors
In-Reply-To: <18333931.1255011711518.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <18333931.1255011711518.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ACE1B02.8070303@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187963



  Meliss9900 at aol.com wrote:
>
>
> I don't have to explain. JKR did it quite well herself when she had Ron
> explain it to us in COS. But from JKR's web site : " A Squib is almost 
> the
> exact opposite of a Muggle-born wizard: He or she is a non-magical person
> born to at least one magical parent."
>
>
> 


I see.  I've written about this on PC's post below, but it seems by your 
example from JKR that she somewhat muddies the waters WRT squibs when 
she writes:

Squibs would not be able to attend Hogwarts as students. They are often 
doomed to a rather sad kind of half-life (yes, you should be feeling 
sorry for Filch), as their parentage often means that they will be 
exposed to, if not immersed in, the wizarding community, but can never 
truly join it. Sometimes they find a way to fit in; Filch has carved 
himself a niche at Hogwarts and Arabella Figg operates as Dumbledore's 
liaison between the magical and Muggle worlds. Neither of these 
characters can perform magic (Filch's Kwikspell course never worked), 
*but they still function within the wizarding world because they have 
access to certain magical objects and creatures that can help them* 
(Arabella Figg does a roaring trade in cross-bred cats and Kneazles, and 
if you don't know what a Kneazle is yet, shame on you). Incidentally, 
Arabella Figg never saw the Dementors that attacked Harry and Dudley, 
but she had enough magical knowledge to identify correctly the 
sensations they created in the alleyway.

So there is something "special about a squib" after all, not being a 
full magical person but having some magical access.  What's missing from 
potientcat's analysis, I think, is a term for a person in Petunia's 
state--a non-magical family that throws a wiz and a dud, not to mention 
any description of what happens in wizarding families who throw a 
dud--do you end up raising the kid like a squib in the magical community 
or give them up to a muggle family? 

If the answer is 'raise the dud kid in a magic community' there is an 
unaccounted for class of person in the magic world, a person with full 
knowledge of the magic world but without even the skills of a squib to 
"still function within the wizarding world because they have access to 
certain magical objects and creatures that can help them."

It's never really clear to me whether Petunia knows a good deal more 
about the magical world from experience or hearsay..  But it's clear she 
knows more than she tells.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 16:45:05 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:45:05 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question re: muggles and dementors
In-Reply-To: <7118534.1255013547673.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <7118534.1255013547673.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ACE1711.3050304@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187964

You guys are makin' my head hurt by confusing parentage with magical 
powers with what they're called:

justcarol67 wrote:
>  
>
>
>
> If two Muggles have a magical child, it's a Muggle-born.  [Magical]
> If two Muggles have a nonmagical child, it's a Muggle. [non-Magical]
> If two magical parents have a magical child [Magical]
> or one magical and one Muggle parent have a magical child, it's a 
> Pure-blood  [Magical]
> Half-Blood Witch or Wizard. [Magical]
> If two magical parents have a nonmagical child [non-Magical]
> or one magical and one Muggle parent have a nonmagical child, it's a 
> Squib. [non-Magical]
>


As far as magical powers go, however, there is still a continuum. It's 
clear that any combination of magical and non-magical parents can produce:

1. magical person,
2. a non-magical person.

But clearly there is no AUTOMATIC difference between a half-blooded 
magical person and a pure-blooded magical person, regarding magical 
powers, only in what they're called.  Even within the category of 
"magical" there is a continuum of powers in the JKR book i.e. spells 
that magical people couldn't or wouldn't do.  Or, said better perhaps, 
there disciplines/interests of magic that one can do better than 
another.  Neville WRT knowledge of magical plants vs wand work is a good 
example.

JKR muddies the waters somewhat by going on to say that while squibs 
have no magical powers they do have access to magical creatures and 
objects--which gives them, one would think some level of magical 
powers--but then Figg could have and see magical creatures like Kneazles 
but not see the Dementors:

Squibs would not be able to attend Hogwarts as students. They are often 
doomed to a rather sad kind of half-life (yes, you should be feeling 
sorry for Filch), as their parentage often means that they will be 
exposed to, if not immersed in, the wizarding community, but can never 
truly join it. Sometimes they find a way to fit in; Filch has carved 
himself a niche at Hogwarts and Arabella Figg operates as Dumbledore's 
liaison between the magical and Muggle worlds. Neither of these 
characters can perform magic (Filch's Kwikspell course never worked), 
but they still function within the wizarding world because they have 
access to certain magical objects and creatures that can help them 
(Arabella Figg does a roaring trade in cross-bred cats and Kneazles, and 
if you don't know what a Kneazle is yet, shame on you). Incidentally, 
Arabella Figg never saw the Dementors that attacked Harry and Dudley, 
but she had enough magical knowledge to identify correctly the 
sensations they created in the alleyway.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  8 21:14:53 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:14:53 -0000
Subject: Question re: muggles and dementors
In-Reply-To: <4ACE1B02.8070303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <halkod+2vrn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187965

Rick: 
> So there is something "special about a squib" after all, not being a 
> full magical person but having some magical access.  What's missing from 
> potientcat's analysis, I think, is a term for a person in Petunia's 
> state--a non-magical family that throws a wiz and a dud, not to mention 
> any description of what happens in wizarding families who throw a 
> dud--do you end up raising the kid like a squib in the magical community 
> or give them up to a muggle family? 

Montavilla47:
I don't think it's as hard as you're making it.  Someone like 
Petunia isn't a "dud" (I find that term a bit offensive, but I'm 
sure you don't mean it that way).  Petunia is a perfectly 
normal person (as us non-magical folk would view it) and a 
perfectly normal Muggle (as wizarding folk would see it).

Lily is the exception, since she is the only person in the 
family with magical powers.  

If you think about it in a continuum sort of way, use the 
analogy of musical talent.  Lily's "talent" came from her 
parents somehow--it didn't come from nowhere.  But,
out of her whole family, she's the only one with enough
talent to play an instrument.  Even if the rest of the family
has enough talent to appreciate music more than the 
average non-musical person, none of them has enough to 
carry a tune.

As the ability to carry a tune and play an instrument is the 
cut-off for admittance to the Hogwarts Academy for Musical
Prodigies.

Rick:
> If the answer is 'raise the dud kid in a magic community' there is an 
> unaccounted for class of person in the magic world, a person with full 
> knowledge of the magic world but without even the skills of a squib to 
> "still function within the wizarding world because they have access to 
> certain magical objects and creatures that can help them."

Montavilla47:

I'm not sure why you are making a distinction between "dud" and 
"squib."  If, by "dud" you mean a person without magical ability, then
you are simply calling the "squib" by a different name.  Squibs 
and Muggles have exactly the same magical skill set.  The only 
difference between them is the family that they were born into (and
the subsequent experience of growing up in a magical environment).

There are very few examples of Squibs in the books.  The two we meet
are Angus Filch (who works within the magical community) and Arabella
Figg (who seems to deal with both Muggles and Wizards).  We also hear
about some cousin of Arthur Weasley who works as an accountant.  We
don't know if that's in a Muggle office or a Wizarding office.  (After all,
Wizards probably need accountants as much as the next person.)

We also see how witches and wizards are treated if they are suspected
of being squibs.  Marvolo Gaunt bullied his daughter and treated her like 
a slave.  Arianna Dumbledore wasn't a Squib, but when she was hidden
by her family, the neighbors assumed that she was one.  When Neville 
was suspected of being a Squib by his family, his uncle threw him out 
of a window.

I imagine that there are a variety of solutions to the situation found
by wizarding families.  The idea of exchanging non-magical Squibs 
for witches or wizards born into Muggle families is so close to the 
idea of the Changeling that I'm surprised JKR didn't put that idea into
the books.


Rick:
> It's never really clear to me whether Petunia knows a good deal more 
> about the magical world from experience or hearsay..  But it's clear she 
> knows more than she tells.


Montavilla47:

It's pretty clear to me that she learned about it through hearsay.
Her only sister attended Hogwarts and seemed to enjoying off
her abilities to her family (as Petunia notes in PS/SS).  So, I'm certain
that Petunia learned a lot from Lily's stories.  

Also, she spied on Lily when Lily was with Severus.  Since they 
discussed magical matters, Petunia had opportunity there to learn
even more about the magical world.  Perhaps that was why Severus
came up with Muffliato!






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  9 01:48:44 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 01:48:44 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarter
In-Reply-To: <haksh2+cpdg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ham4ps+eac5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187966

Pippin wrote:
> <snip> The Dursleys were laughing as they left King's Cross, though. If Harry wanted to put himself in the hands of the madmen who got his parents murdered, abandoned him in the first place, and now, suddenly and unaccountably (to the Dursleys) want him back again, let him go, and see how he likes it. <snip>

Carol responds:

I think they were laughing for a simpler (and crueler) reason--there's "no such thing" as Platform 9 3/4 (which, of course, is inconsistent with "The Prince's Tale," but JKR isn't known for consistency.) They've left Harry stranded, so they think, with no money, a huge trunk, and a caged owl--and no way to go anywhere, not even 4 Privet Drive. 
I suppose they expect him to make a frantic phone call (collect, since he has no money) and request them to pick him up, after which he'd spend some time in his room without food and be sent to Stonewall High. Or maybe they're not thinking that far into the future, just laughing at his predicament. As Movie! Vernon says so memorably in the PoA film, "You've no place to go!"

Carol, who thinks that the Dursleys can't imagine anyone carrying enough about Harry to care whether he made it to his "freak" school





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 10:42:16 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:42:16 -0000
Subject: Question re: muggles and dementors
In-Reply-To: <halkod+2vrn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <han428+ef8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187967



> Montavilla47:
> I don't think it's as hard as you're making it.  

I think you and I are on the same wavelength.  I was responding to a couple of posts and a chart published earlier.  


> Montavilla47:
> 
> I'm not sure why you are making a distinction between "dud" and 
> "squib."  If, by "dud" you mean a person without magical ability, then

Again, in the previous posts was a discussion of a difference between a non-magical child born to muggles who also had a magical child and a non-magical child born to wizarding families.  I don't see that distinction in the canon. I called that kid a dud, the non-Magical child of a wizarding family--just to make a distinction.  

I was also pointing out the inconsistency in JKR's online explanation of a Squib that another post used as an example.  In the first sentence JKR says they have no magical powers (a muggle) but then goes on to say they can handle magical objects and magical animals. So they do have some magical gifts as opposed to a pure muggle.  

> Montavilla47:
> 
> It's pretty clear to me that she learned about it through hearsay.

OTOH, she did manage to contact the Headmaster of Hogwarts on her own.  The canon is ambiguous about how she did this. 


Rick





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Oct  9 15:12:11 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:12:11 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <hal1dp+coav@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hanjsb+fo2m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187968

 
> Alla:
> 
> And as I repeated several times my argument is that author argues throughout the 7 book especially that Snape is not the typical Slytherin. Exactly proves my point IMO, Snape is indeed the last Slytherin mentioned in the story. Slytherin who is praised by Harry for his courage, a quality which determines Gryffindors, not brains or ambition. <snip> I think it is done very deliberately that even at the end, even in the epilogue when Harry mind you in his thirties the ONLY thing he praises Snape for is his courage.

Pippin:
Harry also mentions  Headmaster of Hogwarts, a job that demanded both brains and ambition. Snape's last words in canon are, "I have a plan." As for being a textbook author, canon makes them a joke. Arsenius Jigger? Adalbert Waffling? You think Snape didn't think he could do better than that?

I think the books show that if you have to model yourself on a mythical ideal,  courage and chivalry are more appealing than cunning and ambition. But they also show that *any* myth of superiority will lead us to slight the virtues of others, even the virtues we admire. Harry knows that Albus needs myths to organize a world that would otherwise seem too chaotic and frightening to be understood. But I think Harry hopes that Albus will grow out of it.

Pippin






From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  9 21:17:27 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 21:17:27 -0000
Subject: About Slytherin....
In-Reply-To: <hacn2o+opkp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hao997+k6ou@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187969

Rick Wrote:  Isn't this the same PNB who feigned sleep in his portrait to avoid a mission when DD tried to send him off to Grimmauld Place the night Arthur Weasley was attacked by the snake? He had to be shamed into taking the job by the other portraits.

Janelle:

Taking a little side-step from the general topic of heroes here- I read this part a little differently.  I read it as his feigning indifference and wanting the others to make a fuss over him.  I think he wanted to appear disinterested and as if he were reluctant to help Dumbledore, but really he was enjoying the attention he could get from the others in the process.  I think he had every intention of doing whatever Dumbledore asked of him.




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 22:04:32 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:04:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: About Slytherin....
In-Reply-To: <2535725.1255123153032.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <2535725.1255123153032.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ACFB370.70203@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187970


jelly92784 wrote:
> Janelle:
>
> Taking a little side-step from the general topic of heroes here- I read this part a little differently.  I read it as his feigning indifference and wanting the others to make a fuss over him.  I think he wanted to appear disinterested and as if he were reluctant to help Dumbledore, but really he was enjoying the attention he could get from the others in the process.  I think he had every intention of doing whatever Dumbledore asked of him.
>   

Well, yeah.  In the middle of an emergency he's dodging out.

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Oct 11 04:29:47 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 04:29:47 -0000
Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?
In-Reply-To: <4AC914C5.7030108@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <harmvr+l7mu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187971



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> Nikkalmati:
> > I think that Snape's belief in LV was completely destroyed in the instant he found out that LV intended to kill the Potters, and he had no recourse other than to throw himself on the mercy of DD.  Snape thought he was risking his life by talking to DD, who might kill him on sight, so he must have given up all hope that LV would spare her. 
> 
> Bart:
>     There is a story about a religious teacher, who was giving a lecture 
> series. He was with a companion, looking out his window. Several 
> teenagers started to strip a  car on the street.
> 
>     The teacher looked down. He commented to his companion, "I know what 
> they are doing is wrong, but look at the skill with which they are 
> performing their task. There is a sort of poetry to it .... Hey! Wait a 
> second! That's MY car!!!!!!"
> 
>     I suspect that Snape was kind of like that teacher, depersonalizing 
> the evil that the Death Eaters were doing because they gave him 
> recognition, until it became personal, and it was only then that he 
> realized that not only were they going after his lifelong friend, but it 
> went further; that EVERYTHING he had been doing was wrong. Snape turning 
> sides for selfish reasons was disgusting, but Snape repenting was not.
> 
>     Bart

Nikkalmati

Certainly, if Snape began to spy for DD from the moment on the hilltop (and it is implied that spying was the price DD asked), Snape was risking his life from that time on, and he must have given up on LV sparing Lily's life.    We know that LV tried to honor his promise, so maybe Snape knew Lily would not accept. I agree that Snape turned from LV completely from the moment he learned Lily was on the hit list.    

  Harry was a year old when Lily and James were killed, so did LV wait almost a year before deciding Harry was the Prophecy Boy?  It would seem so, because the Potters went into hiding only a few weeks before LV killed them and the response to the information and the request on the hilltop would make sense if they went into hiding immediately after that.  
>
Nikkalmati




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Fri Oct  9 12:16:53 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 08:16:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5,
 Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <21425820.1255016878302.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <21425820.1255016878302.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ACF29B5.7030808@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187972

dumbledore11214 wrote:
>
> Again, I am not arguing with you that Snape's actions are shown as 
> heroic, far from it.<SNIP>


Oh, but I think Snape is the conflicted, unsung, tragic hero of the 
series and possibly shows the "traits" of Slytherin used to their best 
advantage.  He knew the likelihood of it all ending badly for him in the 
end and he played it the best he could, dispised by both the DD and the 
LV sides of the wizarding world. He had but one overarching task, to 
serve the memory of Lily and what she stood (and died) for the best he 
could. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 11 16:52:31 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:52:31 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
In-Reply-To: <hagrkc+gvga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hat2gf+fim3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187973


1.	Dumbledore seems to have left contact with Harry in the hands of Hagrid. What
do you think would have happened if the Dursleys had refused to take Harry to
Kings Cross? Was there a Plan B available? Being a special case, would it have
made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts?


Alla:

Would it have made more sense to take Harry directly to Hogwarts? Of course it would have IMO, but I sort of reconciled myself with the idea that Dumbledore's plans are either incredibly manipulative/ borderline evil (to me) or make no sense whatsoever. I mean, please this is the guy who was just so sure that Dursleys would take Harry in, so of course IMO he would be sure that Dursleys would do as little (in comparison) as to take Harry to the station.

I supposed plan B was as somebody said for Harry to notify Hagrid.


2.	It seems strange that Harry should just happen to overhear Molly mentioning
Muggles and particularly strange that she should ask for the platform number
considering that all three of the boys had made at least one previous trip on
the Hogwarts Express. Could this be a discreet way of manipulating Harry so that
he meets the "right" people on his way who will slant his thinking towards
Gryffindor?

Alla:

I would not put **anything** past Dumbledore, absolutely anything at this point, however Harry may have just as well overheard Slytherin parents asking about the platform IMO, so I am not sure about this one.


4. When Hermione first appears, she is described as having a "bossy voice" and
she seems to behave in this way when she returns to the compartment after the
incident with Malfoy. What was your first impression of Hermione? Did later
events confirm this for you or not?

Alla:

Actually, I do not remember my first complete impression of Hermione, the only thing I remember is what Pippin said, in my mind this first meeting that she was meant for Ron, absolutely without any doubt. This is one of the very few things in the book I was 100% sure since the very beginning that Hermione and Ron are meant for each other, that is why (and because I did not really care who will end up with whom ) I never cared for shipping threads lol. While I was a little less sure of Harry and Ginny, in my mind Ron and Hermione were meant to be by the author, so I did not see the debate as interesting (for myself of course).


5. At this point in the story, do you see the friendship between Harry, Ron and
Hermione taking off as it did later after the troll incident at Hallowe'en? On
first reading, how would you have expected things to proceed?

Alla:

I am not sure I remember my first impression either or was it influenced by later readings, but yes I think I could see that simply because THIS to me is the sort of first meeting of kids who may not like each other on the first glance, but then become friends (contrary to Harry and Draco's meeting). I mean obviously Harry and Ron becoming friends was clear to me, but yes I think I could see Hermione joining them later in some fashion. JMO of course.

6. What do you think prompted Draco's visit to the compartment? Do you think he
genuinely wanted to make a friendly contact with Harry? If not, how do you
interpret the contact? If he did want to strike up a relationship, what effect
do you consider Harry's rejection had? What long term implications did there
seem to be at this point in time?

Alla:

Sure I can believe that he wanted to be friends with Harry, but I do not think it was because he really liked Harry, I think he was following his father's directions and because he thought it would be advantageous for him. So I guess I question the genuine part of it. I am not sure what long term implications you mean. That Harry did not like Slytherin because of Draco and would have liked them otherwise? I don't know. 
Thanks for the great questions Geoff.








From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Oct 11 17:04:00 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 Oct 2009 17:04:00 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/11/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1255280640.567.79773.m6@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187974

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday October 11, 2009
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. 

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK


All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2009 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20091011/9ac966a4/attachment.html>

From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Oct 11 20:53:51 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:53:51 -0000
Subject: About Slytherin....
In-Reply-To: <4ACFB370.70203@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hatgkv+s5h8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187975

Rick Kennerly:
> 
> Well, yeah.  In the middle of an emergency he's dodging out.
> 

Pippin:
There's no emergency at Grimmauld Place. I see no great urgency about telling Sirius that Harry is coming...it's just a courtesy and a way to get Sirius up to speed before Harry arrives.  I suppose that considering what happened the last time Harry attempted to travel from Hogwarts by portkey, Dumbledore might have wanted to make sure someone was expecting the boy and could report if he didn't arrive. It also might not be a good idea for Harry to arrive unexpectedly and be fumbling around in the dark in a wizarding house that is supposed to be secure against invaders. Sirius might assume the worst.

But Phineas has guessed that Dumbledore wants him be an errand boy  and that's "servant stuff" as Draco would put it. Phineas no doubt considers it far beneath the dignity of a Hogwarts Headmaster.

 Before we attribute this to the bad influence of Slytherin, we might want to consider that Sirius Black behaves the same way, disdaining the housework because it does not make him feel important. I think it has more to do with being raised as a pampered prince than with being a Slytherin.

Pippin




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 00:09:17 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:09:17 -0000
Subject: About Slytherin....
In-Reply-To: <hatgkv+s5h8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hats3d+4hpu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187976



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> Rick Kennerly:
> > 
> > Well, yeah.  In the middle of an emergency he's dodging out.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> There's no emergency at Grimmauld Place. I see no great urgency about telling Sirius that Harry is coming...it's just a courtesy and a way to get Sirius up to speed before Harry arrives.  I suppose that considering what happened the last time Harry attempted to travel from Hogwarts by portkey, Dumbledore might have wanted to make sure someone was expecting the boy and could report if he didn't arrive. It also might not be a good idea for Harry to arrive unexpectedly and be fumbling around in the dark in a wizarding house that is supposed to be secure against invaders. Sirius might assume the worst.
> 
> But Phineas has guessed that Dumbledore wants him be an errand boy  and that's "servant stuff" as Draco would put it. Phineas no doubt considers it far beneath the dignity of a Hogwarts Headmaster.
> 
>  Before we attribute this to the bad influence of Slytherin, we might want to consider that Sirius Black behaves the same way, disdaining the housework because it does not make him feel important. I think it has more to do with being raised as a pampered prince than with being a Slytherin.
> 
> Pippin
>
Carol:
And in DH, Fleur, who was never at Hogwarts at all, displays a similar reluctance to run errands and serve as messenger to Griphook. In Phineas Nigellus's case, I agree with the poster who said that his reluctance was all for show. Of course, he intended to do as Dumbledore asked. He just likes being snide and difficult. And, as you say, Pippin, the emergency was at the MoM and St. Mungo's, not at 12 GP. DD had already sent a witch and wizard whose names I don't remember to those places before he sent Phineas to inform Sirius that the Weasleys and Harry were coming.

Carol, noting that Phineas's attitude changes when the headmaster he's sworn to serve is fellow Slytherin Severus Snape




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct 12 01:51:18 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 01:51:18 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hafd62+dqed@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hau22m+kkb2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187977


Kemper:
> 
> My teams are mostly separated by potential and mild disappointment.
> 
> Crookshanks
> Mrs Figg
> Hermione's Folks
> Griphook
> Kreacher
> Neville
> Luna
> Albus Severus
> Team Captain: Snape
> 
> 
> Sirius
> Firenz
> Mungdungus
> Ginny
> Grawp
> Teddy Lupin
> Peeves
> Umbridge
> Winky
> Team Captain: Hermione
>

Potioncat:
This is an interesting set of lists. So, erm, which is which?




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 02:04:12 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 02:04:12 -0000
Subject: The Rise and Fall of LV...(was Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hagjrm+v7vn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hau2qs+iqni@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187978



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> I had an ulterior motive for the "Top Ten" question and I have to admit, the answers took an interesting turn. I'd like to comment on that later. Right now I'd like to try a different approach. 
> 
> Let's imagine Hogwarts of Albus Severus's day. I would guess there have been at least two new headmasters since Snape, and one would hope a new History of Magic teacher by now. What do you think would be taught by a good history professor about the Rise and Fall of Lord Voldemort? Which of the characters from both sides would get a place in the history books?  Briefly, what would be said about them? 
<SNIP>


Alla:

Ulterior motive, huh? Please have as many of those as possible, hehe, loved the question.

Okay, quite honestly if we were to look at how WW treated their villains and heroes in the past, the answer seems to be pretty easy to me.

Harry was in the textbooks when he was a baby, yes? So I see no reason why he will not be in the textbooks, only with ten times more praises - saved us all, etc, etc. 

Same thing about Dumbledore, me thinks. WW is always very good to praise people after the fact.


Now Snape definitely should be there because he deserves it, but will he be there? I don't know. I think he will simply because WW will do whatever Harry says.

I don't know, if we were to figure out how truthfully events will be described THAT I have no idea. If supposedly grown up trio and other former pupils of that generation changed the mindset a lot, maybe we will read some true stories, if not, probably variety of Rita's things IMO.

I do wonder, will the students be reading about dear Albus raising their hero for slaugher to save them all? Somehow I am having a hard time imagining it.

And I am really curious if their version of Voldemort's second rise would be much different from the version Hagrid gives to Harry.

Alla




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Oct 12 02:44:48 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 02:44:48 -0000
Subject: Platform 9 3/4 /  Hufflepuff / Joining LV / Potters in hiding
Message-ID: <hau570+lmmh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187979

Geoff discussed PS/SS Chapter 6 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187943>:

<< Being a special case, would it have made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts? >>

I don't think any student goes to Hogwarts without travelling on the Hogwarts Express, not even a student who lives in Hogsmeade. Especially the new first years have to go on those boats. We never find out if the leaving seventh years leave on those boats. That could be a little awkward, with people leaving school after fifth year (or sixth) year missing that boat return trip and its unknown magical effects.

Rick Kennerly asked in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187948>:

<< Well, if that's true, why would anybody want to be an also-ran like Hufflepuff? >>

Family tradition. I doubt that the Puffs think their House is an also-ran. Surely they think it's the best House, altho' not adequately respected by others, and that's what they tell their children.

Desire to be in the same House as an older sibling or cousin or neighbor. 

Desire NOT to be in the same House as an older sibling or cousin or neighbor (therefore taking Hufflepuff when the Hat offers it as an alternative to the unwanted House). 

Fondness for food leading to a desire to be housed near the kitchen (if the ickle firstie knew about where the Houses were located). 

Low self-esteem - I remain convinced that the reason the Hat took a long time sorting Neville was a conversation in which the Hat told him he should be in Gryffindor but he insisted that he was only good enough for Hufflepuff until the Hat told him: "A child brave enough to argue with a powerful magic artifact like me is brave enough for GRYFFINDOR!"

Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187961>:

<< How many wizards actually join Voldemort, really join him, not just go along because they are hexed or frightened? A quarter of them? No way. There's thirty wizards in the graveyard. That's not much to show for fifty years worth of recruiting. >>

Plus a dozen who re-joined him when he broke them out of Azkaban. Plus the ones who were killed resisting arrest or died while in Azkaban. 

Oh, and plus the ones who died or were disabled from old age or experience, or possibly murdered by their impatient heirs ... some of the schoolboys recruited by schoolboy Tom Riddle would have been eaten by dragons during that there Swedish broomstick race by the time that Lord Voldemort went public.

Nikkalmati wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187971>:

<< Harry was a year old when Lily and James were killed, so did LV wait almost a year before deciding Harry was the Prophecy Boy? It would seem so, because the Potters went into hiding only a few weeks before LV killed them and the response to the information and the request on the hilltop would make sense if they went into hiding immediately after that. >>

I believe the Potters were in hiding for a year before LV caught them. I envision that wherever they hid, soon DD's spies told him that LV had found out where they were hiding, so DD quickly moved them to another hiding place, but LV soon found out about that one, too. Since they trusted Peter to visit them in all their hiding places but Peter was LV's spy, the only delay in LV learning their latest hiding place is how long it is until Peter's next appointment to report to him.

Because LV kept finding out where the Potters were hiding, finally DD suggested the Fidelius Charm. I believe it was a week or two after that that LV finally caught them.

In <http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/news_view.cfm?id=80>, JKR said: "When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people."

In <http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm>, she said: "At the time that they christened Harry, they were in hiding. This was not going to be a widely attended christening, because he was already in danger."






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct 12 12:11:25 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:11:25 -0000
Subject: The Rise and Fall of LV...(was Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hau2qs+iqni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hav6dd+3lqe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187980

Alla:
> 
> I do wonder, will the students be reading about dear Albus raising their hero for slaugher to save them all? Somehow I am having a hard time imagining it.
> 
> And I am really curious if their version of Voldemort's second rise would be much different from the version Hagrid gives to Harry.


Potioncat:
Well, take any historical event and look at the many versions or points of view about it. History is written by the victors, but the victors often disagree with each other. The history that is taught in school text books is so bland compared to the history in real history books.


> Alla:
> 
> Ulterior motive, huh? Please have as many of those as possible, hehe, loved the question.

Potioncat:
Thanks!
>
I was a little surprised at the Top Ten lists. I expected different names from different members, but I was surprised that the qualities- of-choice or criteria of the lists were so different. In many ways they are not lists of the same thing at all. Very interesting. 

I was also surprised that people had trouble finding 10 names for the lists. I had trouble limiting myself to 10! Even though I like others did not want to just list the names of those on the good side and those on the bad side. That's the other problem. We don't have names for the two sides. There are no Patriots/Torries, no Yanks/Rebels, no York/Lancaster. 

But, for completion, here are my lists.

Good Guys (Those who fought against LV with some significant outcome)
Harry
DD
Snape
Regulus
McGonagall
Slughorn
Neville
Dobby
Moody
Lovegood (father)

Honorable Mention
Ron
Hermione
Shacklebolt

Bad Guys (those who demonstrated an evil nature, or who fought for LV in a significant way) 
Salazar Slytherin
Tom Riddle
Grindlewald
Peter Pettigrew
Lucius Malfoy
Bellatrix Black
Barty Crouch, Jr
Umbridge
Greyback
Crabbe

Dishonorable Mention
Dolohov 
McNair
Rosier
Narcissa
Draco

I wrote my list before I posted the question so that I wouldn't be influenced. I've seen a couple of names that made me think, "How did I leave that one off?"  The other thing is, I completely forgot it's Bellatrix Lestrange, not Black. (But then, I think she did too.)

But I'm taking what I've leaned from this thread back to the Chapter 5 Discussion Thread. That was my ulterior motive all along. :-)





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 12:40:22 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:40:22 -0000
Subject: The Rise and Fall of LV...(was Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hav6dd+3lqe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hav83m+dj7d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187981

> potioncat wrote:
> I wrote my list before I posted the question so that I wouldn't be influenced. I've seen a couple of names that made me think, "How did I leave that one off?" 

Joey:

I'm curious to know which ones. Would you please share those names?

> potioncat wrote:
> The other thing is, I completely forgot it's Bellatrix Lestrange, not Black. (But then, I think she did too.)

Joey:

LOL. 

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 14:52:09 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:52:09 -0000
Subject: About Slytherin....
In-Reply-To: <hats3d+4hpu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <havfqp+e7ei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187982

> Carol, noting that Phineas's attitude changes when the headmaster he's sworn to serve is fellow Slytherin Severus Snape
>

Montavilla47:

It's possible that Snape, having been in Slytherin for seven years and headed it for 15 years is better at dealing with Phineas than Dumbledore.

I had always thought that Dumbledore was great in dealing with people, but after DH, I'm not so sure.  In the Prince's Tale, we discover that Dumbledore's hold over Snape isn't that Dumbedore provides something that Snape needed emotionally or psychologically, but that he demanded total servitude when Snape was desperate.  Then we see that he's spectacularly bad at showing his appreciation. (Sorted too soon? Sheesh.)








From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 16:00:47 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:00:47 -0000
Subject: The Rise and Fall of LV...(was Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hau2qs+iqni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <havjrf+4lol@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187983

Alla wrote:
<snip>
> Harry was in the textbooks when he was a baby, yes? So I see no reason why he will not be in the textbooks, only with ten times more praises - saved us all, etc, etc. 
> 
> Same thing about Dumbledore, me thinks. WW is always very good to praise people after the fact.
> 
> 
> Now Snape definitely should be there because he deserves it, but will he be there? I don't know. I think he will simply because WW will do whatever Harry says.
> 
> I don't know, if we were to figure out how truthfully events will be described THAT I have no idea. <snip>

Carol responds:

Interesting comments, which I pretty much agree with. We've seen that news reporting in the WW depends on who's in power, which distorts the sources available to historians, and we've seen two types of historians, the scholarly and general (Bathilda Bagshot, now dead) and Rita Skeeter, actually more biographer than historian, aiming for the sensational and speculative (though not wholly off the mark in her biography of DD).

With regard to the events on the day (or rather night) of Voldemort's defeat, I think that Rita Skeeter will eagerly interview anyone who was there and her version of events will circulate and become "common knowledge." She would probably try and fail to interview Harry, Neville, and any other heroes of the battle but would be mostly confined to eyewitness accounts by ordinary citizens, which, of course, will be confused, incomplete, and conflicting, as eyewitness accounts usually are. They will also be biased (pro-Harry, pro-DD, the hero/mentor who made Harry's victory possible). It will be hard to get an objective account of Snape though some Slytherin students may be happy to step in and say good things about the Slytherin who turned out to be a hero. Other witnesses, including students, may have a hard time getting past their anti-Slytherin biases and their belief that Snape murdered Dumbledore. It will take persistence on a par with Rita's and a determined objectivity to get past this mass of muddled memories, preconceptions, and prejudices to find anything like the truth, and, unfortunately, there's no correspondence between, say, DD and Snape to use as supporting evidence (as Rita Skeeter had for Albus's friendship with Gellert). It will help if Snape's Pensieve memories, along with DD's collection, are preserved and if someone allows the biographer access to the memory of Harry's vindication of Snape and Voldemort's last moments. Otherwise, legend will triumph over fact and Harry, now reconciled to celebrity but averse to publicity, probably won't attempt to set the record straight, to the best of his ability, until late in life, if at all. As long as LV is dead, the surviving DEs are safely in Azkaban with no way out (Lucius Malfoy excepted), Kingsley is in charge of the WW, and Snape has a portrait in the headmaster's office, he's probably satisfied. We know that he never cared much about the history of magic and almost never read Bathilda's book.

I suppose our best bet is for Hermione to write a history of magic in the twentieth century to follow up on Bathilda's book. Of course, it would have a pro-Harry, pro-DD bias and it would be hard to write objectively about herself and Ron, but she might attempt to do justice to Snape, just as she recognized that the boy Snape, the HBP, though perhaps "dodgy," was not evil.

But, that possibility aside, we see in the two accounts of DD's life, Doge's eulogy and Skeeter's scandal-laced biography, the two extremes of historical-biographical writing and forms of distortion that will probably appear in accounts of the Battle of Hogwarts. None will dare to praise Voldemort, but objectivity will be difficult to come by. We see that all the time in Muggle historical writing. Even when written sources are available, they reflect the writer's bias (conservative or liberal; British or French or American; Yorkist or Lancastrian; or whatever, depending on the era and the part of the world in question) and the preconceptions of the historian. Absolute accuracy and objectivity, like perfect recall of events we witness, is humanly impossible, and even events witnessed in a Pensieve would be subject to the witness's interpretation, as we see with Harry's reactions to his many Pensieve excursions (and, for that matter, his interpretation of what he sees himself as recorded by the narrator).

So, will Harry continue to be a hero to the majority of the WW? Yes, though I think his status will be reduced to that of a celebrity who once did something important for the country. Will DD be like many dead leaders on the winning side, remembered for his accomplishments and forgiven for his many failings? Yes, I think so. Eventually, he'll become a Merlin figure, a famous Great Wizard on the Chocolate Frog cards and a name on the History of Magic OWL. And Snape? It's hard to say. Maybe other children besides Albus Severus, mostly the sons of Slytherins who liked and admired him, will name their kids after Slytherin's most famous hero. Or maybe he'll become like Richard III, with people still taking sides and debating his motives five hundred years after his death.

Carol, freewriting on Columbus Day morning and wishing everyone who has the day off an enjoyable free Monday






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct 12 16:01:59 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:01:59 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <hal0da+5nat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <havjtn+j8ri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187984

 
> Pippin:
> Um, I can't believe you've forgotten all the things we always point to to show that Slytherins weren't all bad, starting with Snape saving Harry's life. 

Potioncat:

OK, I'm back in the fold. 

Here's why.  I've argued for many years that it makes no sense for one house to be the "house of bad kids." By the end of the series, however, I wasn't too sure that JKR agreed.  But Pippin is right, the last thing we hear about Slytherin House is that one of the bravest men Harry ever knew came from it. Pretty high praise from Harry Potter.

So I began to think about that praise, and to think about how the characters might view things. Eleven-year-old Harry Potter learns from his first two wizardig friends that Slytherin House is bad.  He sees Draco Malfoy rapidly sorted into it--and it's downhill from there.

Eleven-year-old Albus Potter hears from his father that the bravest man came from Slytherin and that Slytherin House would be lucky to get him. 

(Yes, I know, Pippin has been making this point, but I'm not as quick as she is.)

And this is why I asked the Top Ten List question, because it dawned on me, that we have clear opinions about the characters who were around during Harry's school years. We know a bit of personal information about many of them, but Al wouldn't.

School kids by the period of the epilogue would know about the usual heroes of the war with LV. (Gryffindors, of course.)  They would also know about Slughorn, who recruited and led reinforcements to the Battle of Hogwarts; Regulus Black who stole a Horcrux from LV's well-guarded cave; the portrait of Phineas Nigellus Black who played a part in gathering intelligence for Snape; and Snape who successfully spied on the DEs from LV's right hand. Andromeda Tonks might be in this list of Pro-Harry Slytherins. I'm just not sure if she's been confirmed as Slytherin. (Doesn't Slughorn actually duel with LV along with McGonagall and a 3rd person?)

So while I've whined that there wasn't "the good Slytherin" there are Slytherins who did good. This generation of kids have more than "all bad wizards come from Slytherin." 

They also have a few heroes from the other houses.

> 
> Pippin: 
> I would say that Harry's view of the House expanded. The Hat does seem to try to steer abnormal children into Slytherin, and they stand out there because they'd stand out anywhere. But how many wizarding kids are abnormal? Certainly not a quarter of the population. 


Potioncat:
What? Where do you get that the Sorting Hat puts abnormal children into Slytherin?

But I agree completely with the rest of your comments about Slytherin and Al's reason for worrying about it.






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 12 17:38:28 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:38:28 -0000
Subject: Platform 9 3/4 /  Hufflepuff / Joining LV / Potters in hiding
In-Reply-To: <hau570+lmmh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <havpik+tcf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187985

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:

We never find out if the leaving seventh years leave on those boats.


zanooda:

They leave school after the *first* year on those boats :-). There is no point in doing it again after the seventh year, IMO :-). Besides,  they would need twice as many boats for the first and the seventh years combined...:-).







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct 12 17:47:55 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:47:55 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
In-Reply-To: <hagrkc+gvga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <havq4b+m17e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187986

Geoff:

1. Dumbledore seems to have left contact with Harry in the hands of Hagrid. What do you think would have happened if the Dursleys had refused to take Harry to Kings Cross? Was there a Plan B available? Being a special case, would it have made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts?

Potioncat:
Plan B? This is Dumbledore you're talking about. He doesn't need a Plan B. At least, I can't imagine he'd ever think he needed one.

I've always wondered how soon Hogwarts knew that Harry and Ron were not on the Express their second year and how much longer before they knew about the car. If DD knew, he seemed to content to let them continue on their own. 

If Vernon had refused to take Harry, I think he would have sent an owl, or come up with a plan on his own. He's pretty good at that.


2. It seems strange that Harry should just happen to overhear Molly mentioning
Muggles and particularly strange that she should ask for the platform number
considering that all three of the boys had made at least one previous trip on
the Hogwarts Express. Could this be a discreet way of manipulating Harry so that
he meets the "right" people on his way who will slant his thinking towards
Gryffindor?

Potioncat:
I don't think it was arranged. It sounds as if the Weasleys were arriving about the same time as Harry. And it's pretty close cut if you ask me. Harry is being his resilient self, thinking about how to locate 9 3/4. So he hears "Muggles" and follows the family. When Molly asks the gate number, it sounds more like a mother quizzing a child rather than really asking the question for herself. Especially since Ginny pipes up with the answer. 



5. At this point in the story, do you see the friendship between Harry, Ron and
Hermione taking off as it did later after the troll incident at Hallowe'en? On
first reading, how would you have expected things to proceed?

Potioncat:
I'm sure I knew she would be important. I'm not sure if I expected a friendship. She could have been another antagonist, like Draco.


6. What do you think prompted Draco's visit to the compartment? Do you think he
genuinely wanted to make a friendly contact with Harry? If not, how do you
interpret the contact? If he did want to strike up a relationship, what effect
do you consider Harry's rejection had? What long term implications did there
seem to be at this point in time?

Potioncat:
I think Draco wanted to meet the Boy Who Lived. Maybe he wanted to see for himself if this was going to a powerful Dark Wizard--and maybe he wanted to make sure they were cohorts if that was to be the case. It's a shame we never got to even see the discussion between Draco and Theo that was supposed to happen early in this book.

Geoff:
This is not intended to be a prescriptive list. If you have questions of your own which you would like to discuss, please include them in your posts.

Potioncat:
Not a question, just an observation. In this chapter, Ron is worried that he might end up in Slytherin and it sounds like a fate worse than death. It also sounds just like his nephew in a few decades.

Ron tells us the twins make good marks, I'd forgotten that. We often fault the twins for their treatment of others, but they are being very kind to a little first year, and they are the ones Molly asks to look after Ron. She doesn't ask Percy.






From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Oct 12 20:11:46 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:11:46 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
In-Reply-To: <hagrkc+gvga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb02i2+5e3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187987

This is not intended to be a prescriptive list. If you have questions of your own which you would like to discuss, please include them in your posts.
 
Geoff


Marianne:

Why did the Dursleys wait so long to go to London the have Dudley's tail removed?  Considering it was magic that caused the tail to appear I would have thought the Dursleys would have wanted to get it taken care of ASAP.  And what kind of Dr. would they have taken Dudley to?  What kind of explanation could they give?  Certainly they wouldn't have known about St. Mungos.
 




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 20:22:45 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:22:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6,
 The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
In-Reply-To: <16075230.1255369733360.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <16075230.1255369733360.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD39015.7040407@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187988


> Geoff:
>
> 6. What do you think prompted Draco's visit to the compartment? Do you think he
> genuinely wanted to make a friendly contact with Harry? If not, how do you
> interpret the contact? If he did want to strike up a relationship, what effect
> do you consider Harry's rejection had? What long term implications did there
> seem to be at this point in time?
>
>   
Draco, like TDL, didn't have any real friends; he had minions--Crabbe, 
Goyle, Parker.  Malfoy was drawn to Harry's power and fame to bath in 
that reflected glory and make alliances to further his (or his dad's) 
cause.  In this respect Draco is a bit like Slughorn, only more 
sinister.  Slytherins use people like Kleenex. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 20:15:58 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:15:58 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: About Slytherin....
In-Reply-To: <8392793.1255359745069.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <8392793.1255359745069.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD38E7E.3030606@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187989

montavilla47 wrote:
> I had always thought that Dumbledore was great in dealing with people, 
> but after DH, I'm not so sure. In the Prince's Tale, we discover that 
> Dumbledore's hold over Snape isn't that Dumbedore provides something 
> that Snape needed emotionally or psychologically, but that he demanded 
> total servitude when Snape was desperate. Then we see that he's 
> spectacularly bad at showing his appreciation. (Sorted too soon? >Sheesh.)


But  Snape had passed the partial prophesy to TDL never suspecting he 
was dooming Lily Evans (Potter). Snape was in this for personal 
redemption. The more difficult and brutal his task, the more he suffered 
for his "crime," the more redeemed he'd feel. 

Snape is Heathcliff to Lily's Catherine in Bronte's Wuthering Heights. 
It's very tragic and like Heathcliff, Snape spends a life a remorse. 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 20:08:29 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:08:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Platform 9 3/4 /  Hufflepuff / Joining LV /
 Potters in hiding
In-Reply-To: <10827010.1255315662061.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <10827010.1255315662061.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD38CBD.4040007@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187990

Catlady (Rita Prince wrote:
> Geoff discussed PS/SS Chapter 6 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187943>:
>
> << Being a special case, would it have made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts? >>
>
> I don't think any student goes to Hogwarts without travelling on the Hogwarts Express, not even a student who lives in Hogsmeade. Especially the new first years have to go on those boats. We never find out if the leaving seventh years leave on those boats. That could be a little awkward, with people leaving school after fifth year (or sixth) year missing that boat return trip and its unknown magical effects.
>  
 
Well, if traditional graduations are any measure, the 7th years would 
have left at the end of the last term.  Whether they use the boats or 
the horseless carriages is unknown. 

Of course, it's important for the 1st years to arrive by boat, a water 
passage.  You have to understand JKR's classical education to get the 
full import of the boat ritual: new life, passage through the birth 
canal, being reborn in a full immersion baptism, having your soul 
ferried by Chiron across the river Styx.  Harry doesn't really become an 
adult until his boat passage with DD in the cave; where DD becomes as 
weak as a baby and HP passing his first test of adulthood, does what has 
to be done.  Interestingly, Draco seems to have preceded HP into 
adulthood, taking the dark mark, foregoing the games and friendships of 
Hogwarts life, to do what he thinks has to be done. 

I think it's odd that we don't witness any graduation ceremonies at 
Hogwarts, again a symbolic passage from one state to another. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 19:46:09 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:46:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6,
 The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
In-Reply-To: <11667177.1255279990820.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <11667177.1255279990820.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD38781.4090202@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187991

Geoff wrote:
> 1.	Dumbledore seems to have left contact with Harry in the hands of Hagrid. What
> do you think would have happened if the Dursleys had refused to take Harry to
> Kings Cross? Was there a Plan B available? Being a special case, would it have
> made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts?
>
>   

rick:

but DD wanted Harry to be just like any student from the beginning, and 
the train trip on the Hogwarts Express was a rite of passage, of 
separation from their parents and their old lives.  I'm sure that DD 
would have made other arrangements if Harry hadn't arrived. 

> 2.	It seems strange that Harry should just happen to overhear Molly mentioning
> Muggles and particularly strange that she should ask for the platform number
> considering that all three of the boys had made at least one previous trip on
> the Hogwarts Express.
 
rick:

But JKR needed some plot device to move the story forward briskly.  
Molly is used by JKR continually as a stream of conscientiousness 
speaker; if Molly doesn't say it, she doesn't think it (like my Mom).  
In fact, her most volcanic moments are after periods when she has to 
keep quiet.  Besides, that's probably a defensive technique for herding 
that many kids and keeping them on track.  But Molly's also useful for 
filling in the background and keeping the story moving.  The other great 
plotting devices are Hermione's constant citing of "Hogwarts, a 
History", to explain (or explain away inconvienient) background stuff, 
like why electricity won't work at Hogwarts, and DD who explains all 
things about dark magic. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Oct 12 22:16:04 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 22:16:04 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarter
In-Reply-To: <4AD39015.7040407@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hb09r4+skdq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187992



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:

Rick Kennerly:
> Draco, like TDL, didn't have any real friends; he had minions--Crabbe, 
> Goyle, Parker.  Malfoy was drawn to Harry's power and fame to bath in 
> that reflected glory and make alliances to further his (or his dad's) 
> cause.  In this respect Draco is a bit like Slughorn, only more 
> sinister.  Slytherins use people like Kleenex. 

Geoff:
TDL?




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 13 00:20:19 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:20:19 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarter
In-Reply-To: <hb09r4+skdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb0h43+aifa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187993

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

 
> Rick Kennerly:

> > Draco, like TDL, didn't have any real friends; he had minions- 
> > Crabbe, Goyle, Parker.

  
> Geoff:

> TDL?



zanooda:

"The Dark Lord", maybe :-)? Just a wild guess :-). But who is Parker?








From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 19:48:07 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:48:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: About Slytherin....
In-Reply-To: <7583865.1255306287096.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <7583865.1255306287096.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD387F7.6050302@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187994


>> Rick Kennerly:
>>     
>>> Well, yeah.  In the middle of an emergency he's dodging out.
>>>
>>>       
>> Pippin:
>> There's no emergency at Grimmauld Place.

Well, let's see.  SB is in hiding in an unplotable, secret house with 
tons of defensive mechanisms.  I'm not sure half a dozen people clinging 
to a portkey could have made it in by themselves, or that Sirius 
wouldn't have emerged loaded for bear with a hair triggered wand. 
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Oct 13 07:10:02 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 07:10:02 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarter
In-Reply-To: <hb0h43+aifa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb194a+aqdl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187995



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:

Rick Kennerly: 
> > > Draco, like TDL, didn't have any real friends; he had minions- 
> > > Crabbe, Goyle, Parker.
> 
>   
> > Geoff:
> 
> > TDL?
 
zanooda:
> "The Dark Lord", maybe :-)? Just a wild guess :-). 

Geoff:
Ah. Light dawns!

zanooda:
But who is Parker?

Geoff:
Didn't notice that... But my suspicion is a mistype for 
Pansy Parkinson.





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 09:44:51 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 05:44:51 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6,
 The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarter
In-Reply-To: <6532616.1255418204315.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <6532616.1255418204315.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD44C13.6060103@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187996


> Geoff:
> Ah. Light dawns!
>
> zanooda:
> But who is Parker?
>
> Geoff:
> Didn't notice that... But my suspicion is a mistype for 
> Pansy Parkinson.
>
>   
Yeah, The Dark Lord.  And, yep, a typo.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jeopardy18 at comcast.net  Tue Oct 13 02:43:32 2009
From: jeopardy18 at comcast.net (SeanM)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:43:32 -0000
Subject: The Rise and Fall of LV...(was Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hav6dd+3lqe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb0pgk+nqsp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187997


--- Potioncat:
> Bad Guys (those who demonstrated an evil nature,
> or who fought for LV in a significant way)
> Salazar Slytherin
> Tom Riddle
> Grindlewald
> Peter Pettigrew
> Lucius Malfoy
> Bellatrix Black
> Barty Crouch, Jr
> Umbridge
> Greyback
> Crabbe


SeanM:
I disagree about Salazar Slytherin. He lived a thousand
years before Voldemort and there is a strong chance that
his thoughts and philosophy may have been distorted over
time and that he was not a forerunner of Voldemort. He may
have merely opposed muggleborns because he was worried
about the threat the muggle relatives of muggleborns posed
to the school. The Basilisk may have been created to protect
the school rather then to murder students. Besides he was
one of the founders of the school and he had once been good
friends with Godric Gryffindor so he must not have been all
bad.






From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 14:49:14 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:49:14 -0000
Subject: Legilimency v. Occlumency
Message-ID: <hb241a+3asa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187998

Why would LV ("perhaps the most accomplished legilemens the wizarding world has ever known") choose Snape (a "most accomplished occlumens") as his No. 2, his right hand man?  

Rick Kennerly




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 14:55:34 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:55:34 -0000
Subject: Why Not a Memory Charm
Message-ID: <hb24d6+3qj1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 187999

I've started a re-reading of book 7 DH and working through the drama of whether or not the Dursleys are going to leave and go into hiding.

1.  why was this left to chance? (Nobody in HP's circle loved the Ds, but they wouldn't want them tortured and killed either)

2.  why did HG get to use a memory charm on her parents and ship them off the antipodes but HP couldn't do something similar?

Rick Kennerly




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 15:07:34 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (rhkennerly)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:07:34 -0000
Subject: Ms Figg and squibs
Message-ID: <hb253m+fpkl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188000

finished book 6 OOP last night and noted that Ms. Figg was at Hogwarts at DD's funeral.

It's pretty clear that at HP's trial for fighting off the Dementors that DD brought Ms. Figg as a witness.

However, when you read the funeral scene (White Tomb) the OOP are all sitting together and then later Ms. Figg is sitting with Tom from the LC, the singer from the Wierd Sisters, and Ernie from the Knight Bus.  You kinda sit with them who brought you, particularly if you're dependent on them for getting back, so how did AFigg get to HW?

Rick Kennerly




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 13 16:14:26 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:14:26 -0000
Subject: Legilimency v. Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <hb241a+3asa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb2912+ns9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188001

Rick wrote:
>
> Why would LV ("perhaps the most accomplished legilemens the wizarding world has ever known") choose Snape (a "most accomplished occlumens") as his No. 2, his right hand man?  
> 
> Rick Kennerly
>
Carol responds:
Because Snape's Occlumency is so subtle that Voldemort can enter his mind, see exactly what Snape wants him to see, and not even realize that part of Snape's thought or memory is being hidden from him. (Contrast Draco, whose crude Occlumency is both slow and obvious. IOW, the Dark Lord either doesn't know that Snape is an Occlumens or doesn't know that Snape would dare to use Occlumency against *him.*

That LV really is the greatest Legilimens in the world seems clear from his excursion into poor Gregorvitch's mind. He enters the wandmaker's mind as if it were a Pensieve. He seems to do the same thing to Snape in "The Dark Lord Rising" (DH), and Snape just stands there calmly and lets him do it, knowing that LV will think he's seeing the whole memory when, in fact, Snape is concealing a crucial piece of information.

Snape asks Bellatrix in "Spinner's End" if she thinks he has "somehow hoodwinked" the greatest Legilimens in the world, and she, of course, can't admit even to herself that Snape (or anyone else) could hoodwink Voldemort, and yet that's exactly what he's been doing, at least since the end of GoF and probably long before.

Superb Occlumens? That's an understatement. If Snape can hoodwink Voldemort, and he obviously can, clearly he's the greatest Occlumens in the world.

So LV chose Snape as his right-hand man knowing him to be a capable and highly intelligent Wizard, believing him to be loyal, and without a clue that Snape either could or would dare to use Occlumency against him. He can't imagine someone as good at Occlumency as he is at Legilimency any more than he can imagine someone else discovering the Room of Requirement or getting past the defenses that protect the locket Horcrux in the cave. If you think you're better than everyone else, you underestimate everyone else.

And another thing--Snape's life depended on his concealing that particular ability. Quite possibly, he had to conceal other abilities as well, appearing competent and intelligent but not as brilliant as he really was or Voldemort would perceive him as a rival rather than a talented henchman and kill him off. Just a thought.

Carol, wondering whether Voldemort knew that Snape could fly




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 13 16:23:15 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:23:15 -0000
Subject: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <hb24d6+3qj1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb29hj+2kj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188002



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rhkennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:
>
> I've started a re-reading of book 7 DH and working through the drama of whether or not the Dursleys are going to leave and go into hiding.
> 
> 1.  why was this left to chance? (Nobody in HP's circle loved the Ds, but they wouldn't want them tortured and killed either)
> 
> 2.  why did HG get to use a memory charm on her parents and ship them off the antipodes but HP couldn't do something similar?
> 
> Rick Kennerly
>
Carol responds:
I'm not sure about question 1, but question 2 is pretty easy. Aside from the fact that such a complicated plan would never occur to Harry and he's not as talented as Hermione with complex charms (other than the Patronus Charm), he still has the Trace on him and can't perform magic. The Order has to find a nonmagical way to transport the Dursleys at some distance from 4 Privet Drive. (Also, Hermione probably charmed both her loving and trusting parents at once; imagine Harry attempting to charm all three magic-phobic Dursleys; Vernon would probably throttle him.)

BTW, whatever Hermione performed wasn't a standard Memory Charm like those that Lockhart used on his victims and the Obliviators routinely used on Muggles. Hermione tells Harry in the Muggle cafe on Tottenham Court Road that she's never used a Memory Charm before. The spell she uses on Rowle and Dolohov is her first attempt at Obliviating. (Or JKR somehow forgot about Hermione's Obliviated parents. It could be a Flint.)

Carol, leaving question 1 to someone else




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 12 20:27:34 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:27:34 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6,
 The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
In-Reply-To: <24134853.1255378502819.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <24134853.1255378502819.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD39136.50109@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188003

wildirishrose01us wrote:
>
> Marianne:
>
> Why did the Dursleys wait so long to go to London the have Dudley's tail removed?  Considering it was magic that caused the tail to appear I would have thought the Dursleys would have wanted to get it taken care of ASAP.  And what kind of Dr. would they have taken Dudley to?  What kind of explanation could they give?  Certainly they wouldn't have known about St. Mungos.
>   

Human tails are rare but not unknown. 

"Human embryos <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo> have a tail that 
measures about one-sixth of the size of the embryo itself.^[1] 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail#cite_note-0> As the embryo develops 
into a fetus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus>, the tail is absorbed 
by the growing body. The developmental tail is thus a human vestigial 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vestigial> structure.^[2] 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail#cite_note-1> ^[3] 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail#cite_note-2> Infrequently, a child is 
born with a "soft tail", which contains no vertebrae, but only blood 
vessels, muscles, and nerves, although there have been a very few 
documented cases of tails containing cartilage or up to five vertebrae. 
Modern procedures allow doctors to eliminate the tail at delivery. Some 
of these tails may in fact be sacrococcygeal teratomas 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrococcygeal_teratoma>. The longest 
human tail on record belonged to a twelve-year-old boy living in what 
was then French Indochina 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina>, which measured 229 mm 
(9 inches). A man named Chandre Oram 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandre_Oram>, who lives in West Bengal, a 
state in India, is famous because of his 13-inch (330 mm) tail. It is 
not believed to be a true tail, however, but rather a case of spina 
bifida <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spina_bifida>.

Humans have a tail bone <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_bone> (the 
coccyx <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccyx>) attached to the pelvis, in 
the same place which other mammals have tails. The tail bone is formed 
of fused vertebrae <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebra>, usually 
four, at the bottom of the vertebral column 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebral_column>. It doesn't protrude 
externally, but retains an anatomical purpose: providing an attachment 
for muscles like the gluteus maximus 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluteus_maximus>."


-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 13 16:42:19 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:42:19 -0000
Subject: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <hb29hj+2kj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb2alb+atrm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188004


justcarol67@ wrote:

1.  why was this left to chance? (Nobody in HP's circle loved the Ds, but they wouldn't want them tortured and killed either)
 
Janelle:

I didn't get the impression that this was being left to chance.  They Dursley's weren't just packing up and going into hiding on their own- they were being accompanied by and protected by members of the Order.  I think that the Order wanted the Dursleys to go into hiding by their own choice- but that they would have somehow pushed them into that choice had they resisted more than they did.  The Dursleys were being taken care of and protected.  JMO.




From sweenlit at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 16:48:08 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:48:08 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <hb2alb+atrm@eGroups.com>
References: <hb29hj+2kj4@eGroups.com> <hb2alb+atrm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0910130948k21da4442s416c6c42de50def8@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188005

Justcarol:

1. why was this left to chance? (Nobody in HP's circle loved the Ds, but
they wouldn't want them tortured and killed either)

Lynda:

Oh that wasn't leaving anything to chance. That was actually taking into
account the Dursleys dislike of magic. Just move them to a safer place. No
memory charm, just protection for them.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 13 17:02:00 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:02:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters
In-Reply-To: <hagrkc+gvga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb2bq8+hjs2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188006

1. Dumbledore seems to have left contact with Harry in the hands of Hagrid. What do you think would have happened if the Dursleys had refused to take Harry to Kings Cross? Was there a Plan B available? Being a special case, would it have made more sense to arrange to take Harry directly to Hogwarts?

Janelle:
I think that if the Dursleys would have refused to take Harry to London, he would have written to Hagrid.  If not- I'm sure that Dumbledore would be paying attention and make sure that Harry got to school one way or another.  I think that Dumbledore wanted Harry to ride the train, like someone else said, so that he could have as normal an experience as possible, and so as not to draw any special attention to him (aside from the attention he would naturally get, being who he is).


2. It seems strange that Harry should just happen to overhear Molly mentioning Muggles and particularly strange that she should ask for the platform number considering that all three of the boys had made at least one previous trip on the Hogwarts Express. Could this be a discreet way of manipulating Harry so that he meets the "right" people on his way who will slant his thinking towards Gryffindor?

Janelle:
I think that saying Dumbledore or anyone else set up Harry's meeting with the Weasleys is going too far.  I think it was just lucky that he happened to arrive at the same time as them.  As far as Molly asking what the platform number is, I like to think that was for Ginny's benefit.  Ginny is just a little girl excited/jealous about her brothers all going off to Hogwarts and wanting to be a part of it.

3. Suppose Harry had not overheard this conversation? What then? Was there a Plan B here as well?

Janelle:
I agree that Harry is a pretty smart kid- he's had to take care of himself in a lot of different situaitons in the past.  Before finding the Weasleys he was already trying to figure out what he was supposed to do- he asked people and wondered about possible magic barriers like the bricks at The Leaky Cauldron.  He would have found someone magical to help him.

5. At this point in the story, do you see the friendship between Harry, Ron and Hermione taking off as it did later after the troll incident at Hallowe'en? On first reading, how would you have expected things to proceed?

Janelle: I don't really remember my thoughts on first reading this part, but I think I probably would have assumed that they would all be friends, Neville included.

6. What do you think prompted Draco's visit to the compartment? Do you think he genuinely wanted to make a friendly contact with Harry? If not, how do you interpret the contact? If he did want to strike up a relationship, what effect do you consider Harry's rejection had? What long term implications did there seem to be at this point in time? 

Janelle: I think Draco had two reasons for going into that compartment.  1: he was curious.  "The Boy Who Lived" was on the train and Draco wanted to get a look at him.  Once he realizes that this is the kid from Madam Malkins, he probably felt a bit of superiority over the other kids because he had met Harry before.  If Harry had shaken Draco's hand, Draco would have been bragging about their "close" friendship to whoever would listen.  I don't think Draco was thinking about the Dark Lord and Harry's possible dark powers- Harry was just a famous kid who would be a good connection for Draco and raise his own popularity.




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 17:44:06 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:44:06 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hau22m+kkb2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb2e96+c3nh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188007

 
> Kemper earlier:
> > 
> > My teams are mostly separated by potential and mild disappointment.
> > 
> > Crookshanks
> > Mrs Figg
> > Hermione's Folks
> > Griphook
> > Kreacher
> > Neville
> > Luna
> > Albus Severus
> > Team Captain: Snape
> > 
> > 
> > Sirius
> > Firenz
> > Mungdungus
> > Ginny
> > Grawp
> > Teddy Lupin
> > Peeves
> > Umbridge
> > Winky
> > Team Captain: Hermione

> Potioncat:
> This is an interesting set of lists. So, erm, which is which?

Kemper now:
Thanks Potioncat!

I liked your idea but I wanted to pit the good against the questionable or characters I'm least fond of.  I also wanted to make sure the sides were evenly matched.  Sort of.  And did my best to combine species.  The first list is good.


> Joey's take:
> 1. Hermione [For the intense concern she has for her loved ones / oppressed which she shows in the form of solid action; her conscience]

Kemper now:
Hermione took her parents basic rights away.  It was disgusting.  She cared only for her conscience and imposed it willynilly.  

Potioncat, I like your thread about Rise and Fall of Voldemort and have been writing some on it and hope to post eventually.  But one of the things I identified about what led to the rise was the view of Magic folk as better than Muggle.  Hermione, for all her good intentions, holds the basic world view that makes it easier for a Dark Lord to rise again.

Hope to post more later!

Kemper




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 18:44:10 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:44:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <17614142.1255452969333.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <hb29hj+2kj4@eGroups.com> <hb2alb+atrm@eGroups.com>
 <17614142.1255452969333.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD4CA7A.5070207@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188008

Lynda Cordova wrote:
> Lynda:
>
> Oh that wasn't leaving anything to chance. That was actually taking into
> account the Dursleys dislike of magic. Just move them to a safer place. No
> memory charm, just protection for them.
>   
Maybe I guess...as long as there is food and a TV.  But it's unclear if 
they're going into the magical world when they disapperate or just to a 
safer location.  If not the magical world, how would they keep Vernon 
out of the office?  Big D away from Smeltings? 

This Wizarding World Witness Protection Program seems a little off-hand. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 13 20:58:04 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:58:04 -0000
Subject: Chapt Discussion PS/SS 6, The Journey from Platform 9-3/4 - Dudley's Tail
In-Reply-To: <hb02i2+5e3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb2pks+tdrj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188009

---  "wildirishrose01us" <wildirishrose at ...> wrote:
>
> This is not intended to be a prescriptive list. If you have questions of your own which you would like to discuss, please include them in your posts.
>  
> Geoff
> 
> 
> Marianne:
> 
> Why did the Dursleys wait so long to go to London the have Dudley's tail removed?  Considering it was magic that caused the tail to appear I would have thought the Dursleys would have wanted to get it taken care of ASAP.  And what kind of Dr. would they have taken Dudley to?  What kind of explanation could they give?  Certainly they wouldn't have known about St. Mungos.
>

bboyminn:

I suspect the Dursley's delayed because they were fretting over what explanation they would give the doctors as to why Dudley had a pigs tail. It probably took them a long time to come up with a story that felt satisfactory to them. 

As to what hospital and what doctor would work on just a problem, I wonder if St. Mungo's didn't get involved? As we see from the visit to Mr. Weasley while he is in the hospital, they occasionally do get muggles in there. 

Though, I wonder why the Accidental Magical Reversal Squad didn't get involved. They seem to be pretty Johnny on the spot when ever there are magical problems. But for some reason, not in this case. 

Though I suspect the Dursely's concocted some story about it being a wart of something. Though people being born with tails in not completely unheard of in the muggle world. It could be the doctors concluded that Dudley had been born that way, and now that he was going to the equivalent of high school, they thought it was time it was removed.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 18:26:08 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:26:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Legilimency v. Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <26834877.1255450570793.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <26834877.1255450570793.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD4C640.3050705@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188010

Carol responds:
> Because Snape's Occlumency is so subtle that Voldemort can enter his mind, see exactly what Snape wants him to see, and not even realize that part of Snape's thought or memory is being hidden from him. (Contrast Draco, whose crude Occlumency is both slow and obvious. IOW, the Dark Lord either doesn't know that Snape is an Occlumens or doesn't know that Snape would dare to use Occlumency against *him.* [big snip]
>   
> And another thing--Snape's life depended on his concealing that particular ability. Quite possibly, he had to conceal other abilities as well, appearing competent and intelligent but not as brilliant as he really was or Voldemort would perceive him as a rival rather than a talented henchman and kill him off. Just a thought.
>   

All good points, but then how do we account for Snape off-loading 
memories before he teaches HP, no great shakes at Occlumency.  Of 
course, TDL did, in the end, kill off Snape. 

I've wondered if TDL wasn't aware at some level that Snape wasn't that 
reliable an ally anyway.  He used him and then, once he'd finished, he 
did kill him off. 
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 18:31:34 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:31:34 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <1244162.1255451149821.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <1244162.1255451149821.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD4C786.20505@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188011

justcarol67 wrote:
>
> Carol responds:
> I'm not sure about question 1, but question 2 is pretty 
easy. Aside from the fact that such a complicated plan 
would never occur to Harry and he's not as talented as 
Hermione with complex charms (other than the Patronus 
Charm), he still has the Trace on him and can't perform 
magic. The Order has to find a nonmagical way to transport 
the Dursleys at some distance from 4 Privet Drive. (Also,
Hermione probably charmed both her loving and trusting 
parents at once; imagine Harry attempting to charm all 
three magic-phobic Dursleys; Vernon would probably 
> throttle him.)

Rick:
But it's not Harry's plan to get rid of the D's.  The 
whole thing was planned and organized by the OOP--BTW, 
pity the two wizards who were going to spend all that 
time with the Dursleys.  I'd just transfigure them into 
gernsey cattle and set time in a pasture. 

Carol:
> BTW, whatever Hermione performed wasn't a standard 
Memory Charm like those that Lockhart used on his victims 
and the Obliviators routinely used on Muggles. Hermione 
tells Harry in the Muggle cafe on Tottenham Court Road 
that she's never used a Memory Charm before. The spell 
she uses on Rowle and Dolohov is her first attempt at 
Obliviating. (Or JKR somehow forgot about Hermione's 
> Obliviated parents. 

Rick:
I hadn't picked that up.  I'd say a senior moment from 
JKR.  What's amazing is the persistence of memory charms 
vs. other kinds of hexes, charms and spells. Lockhart is 
still in St. Mungo's years later. 

Carol:
> It could be a Flint

Don't understand Flint.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>




From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Oct 13 23:13:29 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:13:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Legilimency v. Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <hb241a+3asa@eGroups.com>
References: <hb241a+3asa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4AD50999.9010703@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188012

rhkennerly wrote:
> Why would LV ("perhaps the most accomplished legilemens the wizarding world has ever known") choose Snape (a "most accomplished occlumens") as his No. 2, his right hand man?  

Bart:
    Because, among other things, Morty had a tremendous ego. He could 
not imagine ANYBODY being able to block his leglimancy; from his point 
of view, he could even see through Dumbledore himself. Also, he had no 
understanding of love, and therefore could not imagine why Snape would 
convert to the other side.

    Bart



From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Wed Oct 14 00:49:59 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:49:59 -0000
Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <havjtn+j8ri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb377n+ba8u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188013



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> > Pippin:
> > Um, I can't believe you've forgotten all the things we always point to to show that Slytherins weren't all bad, starting with Snape saving Harry's life. 
> 
 Potioncat:
 
School kids by the period of the epilogue would know about the usual heroes of the war with LV. (Gryffindors, of course.)  They would also know about Slughorn, who recruited and led reinforcements to the Battle of Hogwarts; Regulus Black who stole a Horcrux from LV's well-guarded cave; the portrait of Phineas Nigellus Black who played a part in gathering intelligence for Snape; and Snape who successfully spied on the DEs from LV's right hand. Andromeda Tonks might be in this list of Pro-Harry Slytherins. I'm just not sure if she's been confirmed as Slytherin. (Doesn't Slughorn actually duel with LV along with McGonagall and a 3rd person?)
 
Marianne:

Yes, Slughorn duels LV with McGonagall and Kingsley.




From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 14 00:59:42 2009
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (Megan Real)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:59:42 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
Message-ID: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188014

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
(minus that extra space)

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone

Chapter Seven: The Sorting Hat



Summary: In this chapter, Harry and company arrive at Hogwarts for the first
time and are greeted by Professor McGonagall. She brings them into the Great
Hall, where the first years are sorted into their houses. Harry, based on his
previous interactions with Draco, asks not to be put in Slytherin, and the
Sorting Hat agrees to put him in Gryffindor. Harry first sees Dumbledore (well,
the first time he remembers, at least), and Snape, along with the Hogwarts
ghosts, during dinner. The students are then escorted to their dormitories,
where Harry falls asleep and dreams of Professor Quirrell and his turban.


Discussion Questions:

1. How do you think Harry's first impressions of Hogwarts differed from those of
the other first year students? It seemed like nobody knew what to expect for the
sorting, but do you think those who had grown up knowing about Hogwarts were
surprised by other things?

2. Who is your favorite of the ghosts introduced in this chapter, and why?

3. Is there any real-life place you thought of when you first read about the
Great Hall?

4. If you were being sorted, would you have a discussion with the hat like
Harry, or would you go with wherever it wanted to put you?

5. Do you think any of the Weasleys wished they were in a house other than
Gryffindor?

6. Do you think each house is the same size? Do you think any have gotten bigger
or smaller over time?

7. What do you think happened to Sally-Anne Perks?

8. Dean Thomas is specifically described as black in his description, but there
is not a mention of race for the other students. Do you think there is
racial/ethnic diversity at Hogwarts, or is Dean the only non-white student?

9. If you had the banquet of your choice magically appear in front of you, what
would it include?

10. What did you think of Neville's account of his family's concern that he
wasn't magical?

11. The first time you read the chapter, what did you think was happening when
Harry had the pain in his scar while looking at Snape and Quirrell?

12. What was your first impression of Dumbledore? Aside from the fact that we
learn so much more about him as the series goes on, do you think that the "few
words" and the way he introduces the school song are typical of him?

13. Did you think there was any greater significance to Dumbledore's statement
that music is "a magic beyond all we do here"?

14. How does the Gryffindor common room compare to the atmosphere at the school
you attended?

15. What did you think of Harry's dream the first time you read the chapter?

Megan Real 

"A candle is not dimmed by lighting another candle."


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 8, The Potions Master, on  October 20,
2009.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a CoS chapter discussion, please
contact drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).






From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 14 03:50:42 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 03:50:42 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb2e96+c3nh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb3hqi+h6mk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188015

> > Joey's take:
> > 1. Hermione [For the intense concern she has for her loved ones / oppressed which she shows in the form of solid action; her conscience]
> 
> Kemper now:
> Hermione took her parents basic rights away.  It was disgusting.  She cared only for her conscience and imposed it willynilly.  

Joey:

Hmm. Interesting perspective. :-) 

Um, but does canon say anything about Hermione discussing (or not discussing) her plans with her parents before she modified their memories? I somehow feel that she would have (tearfully and apologetically) explained to them why she was going to do what she did just before she modified their memories (and probably, they consented).

In this case, I also think that she cared for her parents' safety and welfare. I too would rather that my parents are safe in Australia knowing nothing about their true identities than being Crucio-ed / killed by a set of nutters calling themselves Death Eaters.

Let me know what you think. :-)

Cheers,
~Joey :-) 





From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 05:06:44 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 05:06:44 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb3hqi+h6mk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb3m94+d5q1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188016


> Kemper earlier:
> Hermione took her parents basic rights away. It was disgusting. She cared only for her conscience and imposed it willynilly.

> Joey:
> Hmm. Interesting perspective. :-)
>
> Um, but does canon say anything about Hermione discussing (or not discussing) her plans with her parents before she modified their memories? I somehow feel that she would have (tearfully and apologetically) explained to them why she was going to do what she did just before she modified their memories (and probably, they consented).


Kemper now:
Canon doesn't state whether or not there was consent.
  
Here's the passage from The Ghoul in Pajamas:
"-- are you sure you've thought this through?" Harry persisted.
"Let's see," said Hermione... ".... I've also modified my parents' memories so that they're convinced they're really called Wendell and Monica Wilkins, and their life's ambition is to move to Australia, which they have now done.  That's to make it more difficult for Voldemort to track them down and interrogate them about me -- or you, because unfortunately, I've told them quite a bit about you.
"Assuming I survive... I'll find Mum and Dad and lift the enchantment.  If I don't -- well, I think I've cast a good enough charm to keep them safe and happy.  Wendell and Monica Wilkins don't know that they've got a daughter, you see."

Here's why I think there was no consent: no loving parent would ever consent, and we get the impression that her parents do alright by her.

> Joey continues:
> In this case, I also think that she cared for her parents' safety and welfare. I too would rather that my parents are safe in Australia knowing nothing about their true identities than being Crucio-ed / killed by a set of nutters calling themselves Death Eaters.

Kemper now:
She cared for parents enough to take away their human rights.  To protect them from torture and murder.  To save them from their Muggle incompetence, their Muggle impotence.  Ickle Muggles.

Magic is right. 

The world view that brings Dark Lords to power from time to time.  It's why their will be another in Albus Severus time.

fwiw,
Kemper




From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Wed Oct 14 05:56:22 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:56:22 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Top Ten
Message-ID: <d3e.4b8ade91.3806c206@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188017

 
In a message dated 10/14/2009 12:07:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
iam.kemper at gmail.com writes:
 
Kemper:

Here's  why I think there was no consent: no loving parent would ever 
consent, and we  get the impression that her parents do alright by her.


 
 
Me:
 
Normally I'd agree but if Hermione actually sat down with her parents and  
told them in exacting detail of everything that LV and the DEs were  
attempting to do in the WW.  Explained that she was in this from the  beginning and 
that she was going to be in this until the bitter end.  And  that not only 
would they be safer but she would be safer (not worrying  about them ect) if 
they'd agree to the memory charm, they might have gone  for it.  As you 
said they seem to do right by her, I'd guess that they  would trust her and her 
judgement in this situation.
 
Melissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 14 09:04:08 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:04:08 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb4468+tv9i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188018

> 1. How do you think Harry's first impressions of Hogwarts differed from those of
> the other first year students? It seemed like nobody knew what to expect for the
> sorting, but do you think those who had grown up knowing about Hogwarts were
> surprised by other things?
> 

Joey:

Actually, that Hermione being able to ascertain that Gryffindor is the best as per most people and that the ceiling in the Great Hall is bewitched but not knowing about the sorting procedure sounds pretty odd to me.

Kids of WW would have been surprised by the grandeur while Muggle-borns would have been surprised by all magical aspects.

> 2. Who is your favorite of the ghosts introduced in this chapter, and why?

Joey:

Fat Friar for his friendliness.

> 5. Do you think any of the Weasleys wished they were in a house other than
> Gryffindor?
> 

Joey:

No. :-)

> 10. What did you think of Neville's account of his family's concern that he
> wasn't magical?
> 

Joey:

That the people of Neville's family are quite proud of being wizards and being part of the WW. 

> 11. The first time you read the chapter, what did you think was happening when
> Harry had the pain in his scar while looking at Snape and Quirrell?
> 

Joey:

I just felt curious and read on. 

> 12. What was your first impression of Dumbledore? Aside from the fact that we
> learn so much more about him as the series goes on, do you think that the "few
> words" and the way he introduces the school song are typical of him?
> 

Joey:

Yes, I do.

> 13. Did you think there was any greater significance to Dumbledore's statement
> that music is "a magic beyond all we do here"?
> 

Joey:

Seems to indicate that magic is not neessarily might and that life has provided better sources of strength (like love, music, individual choices, etc.).

> 15. What did you think of Harry's dream the first time you read the chapter?

Joey:

I was only puzzled when I read it for the first time. Only after reading PS / SS climax and OoTP, the dream seemed more sinister and significant.

Enjoyed the questions!

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Oct 14 13:10:00 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:10:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb4ij8+ln2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188019



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megan Real" <poohmeg20 at ...> wrote:

> 8. Dean Thomas is specifically described as black in his description, but there
> is not a mention of race for the other students. Do you think there is
> racial/ethnic diversity at Hogwarts, or is Dean the only non-white student?

Geoff:
I don't think I've missed it but I don't believe that Dean is  mentioned in 
this chapter by name. I also seem to recall that the fact that he is a black 
Londoner was information given verbally by JKR.

To return to the question, the Patil twins by their names suggest that they are 
either of Indian or Pakistani ethnic origin.




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 14:12:35 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:12:35 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <d3e.4b8ade91.3806c206@aol.com>
Message-ID: <hb4m8j+vff9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188020

> Kemper earlier:
> Here's  why I think there was no consent: no loving parent would ever consent, and we  get the impression that her parents do alright by her.
  
> Me:
> Normally I'd agree but if Hermione actually sat down with her parents and  told them in exacting detail of everything that LV and the DEs were attempting to do in the WW.  Explained that she was in this from the  beginning and that she was going to be in this until the bitter end.  And  that not only would they be safer but she would be safer (not worrying  about them ect) if they'd agree to the memory charm, they might have gone  for it.  As you said they seem to do right by her, I'd guess that they  would trust her and her judgement in this situation.

Kemper now:
If I were Mr or Mrs Granger, I would ask Hermione if Ron's parents would be consenting to a modified memory.  Of course, they would not.  But, then, Hermione might lie as she has no problem with deceiving others if she believes its for the best (see confundus charm on McLaggen.)

I believe you are right, in that they would trust her to go with Harry but that they would be understandably fearful for their daughter's life.  But that's part of the consequence of Hermione's (or any other fighter/warrior/soldier's) choice, so she needs to live with that decision.  It would be nice for parents of soldiers fighting wars to forget they had a child in danger, it might even ease their sons and daughters' hearts/minds;  however, it would not be kind.

Kemper




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 14 16:08:30 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:08:30 -0000
Subject: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0910130948k21da4442s416c6c42de50def8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hb4t1u+5one@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188021

Justcarol (actually Rick):
> 
> 1. why was this left to chance? (Nobody in HP's circle loved the Ds, but they wouldn't want them tortured and killed either)
> 
Lynda:
> 
> Oh that wasn't leaving anything to chance. That was actually taking into account the Dursleys dislike of magic. Just move them to a safer place. No memory charm, just protection for them.
 
Carol responds:

Oops. The question is Rick's, not mine. I responded to the question but you didn't quote my response.

Carol, wasting a post to give credit where credit is due






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 14 16:31:06 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:31:06 -0000
Subject: Legilimency v. Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <4AD4C640.3050705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hb4uca+urtk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188022

Carol earlier:
> > Because Snape's Occlumency is so subtle that Voldemort can enter his mind, see exactly what Snape wants him to see, and not even realize that part of Snape's thought or memory is being hidden from him. (Contrast Draco, whose crude Occlumency is both slow and obvious. IOW, the Dark Lord either doesn't know that Snape is an Occlumens or doesn't know that Snape would dare to use Occlumency against *him.* [big snip]
> >   
> > And another thing--Snape's life depended on his concealing that particular ability. Quite possibly, he had to conceal other abilities as well, appearing competent and intelligent but not as brilliant as he really was or Voldemort would perceive him as a rival rather than a talented henchman and kill him off. Just a thought.
> >   
Rick responded: 
> All good points, but then how do we account for Snape off-loading  memories before he teaches HP, no great shakes at Occlumency.

Carol again:
Harry's ineptitude at Occlumency wasn't the point of Snape's removing those memories. (He'd need to be good at *Legilimency* to see them deliberately.) Snape probably anticipated Harry's using a Protego (Shield Charm), either accidentally or deliberately, which would backfire on the caster of the Legilimens spell (Snape) and release random memories, which is exactly what happened when Harry saw Severus as a small child cowering in fear as his father yelled at his mother, a somewhat older Severus riding a bucking broom, and a teenage Severus killing flies. Snape clearly didn't want Harry to see SWM and two other memories (probably of his going to Dumbledore for help or promising to protect Harry--he hadn't yet agreed to kill Dumbledore or saved his life). Whether he was protecting his cover from Voldemort or simply didn't want Harry to know his true motivation (love of Lily) is unclear, but, either way, he was protecting those particular memories from accidentally being revealed. (I know that other people have other theories, but I'm convinced that mine is correct and that it's supported by the text.) 

Rick:
  Of  course, TDL did, in the end, kill off Snape. 
> 
> I've wondered if TDL wasn't aware at some level that Snape wasn't that reliable an ally anyway.  He used him and then, once he'd finished, he did kill him off. 

Carol responds:
I don't think so. He doesn't really trust anybody, but he comes close to trusting Snape. And he says that he "regrets" killing Snape, which may be true in the sense that he's killing what he views as a loyal and highly competent DE (no personal regret as in affection for Snape, of course). He simply thinks that once he's killed Harry, he will have won the war and that sacrificing this skilled and intelligent "servant" will enable him to do that. He no longer needs Snape as a spy, and he can always find another DE headmaster for Hogwarts. It's not that he distrusts him; Snape, after all, killed Dumbledore, supposedly on LV's orders. It's just that, in LV's view, he's expendable.

Carol, wishing that Snape had managed to talk to Harry at Hogwarts instead of being thwarted by McGonagall and forced to fly from the school
>




From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Wed Oct 14 16:58:30 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:58:30 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Top Ten
Message-ID: <cf3.613e52a9.38075d36@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188023

In a message dated 10/14/2009 9:13:40 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
iam.kemper at gmail.com writes:

Kemper  now:
If I were Mr or Mrs Granger, I would ask Hermione if Ron's parents  would 
be consenting to a modified memory. Of course, they would not. But,  then, 
Hermione might lie as she has no problem with deceiving others if she  
believes its for the best (see confundus charm on McLaggen.)
That's comparing apples and oranges.  Mr & Mrs Weasley are adult  wizards 
and  capable of defending themselves and their family from a  magical attack. 
The Grangers aren't.  I suppose that they could have tried  the Fidelius 
(sp) charm but seeing how well it worked for Harry's parents,  Hermione might 
not have enough faith to trust her parents to it.
 
Kemper:

I  believe you are right, in that they would trust her to go with Harry but 
that  they would be understandably fearful for their daughter's life. But 
that's  part of the consequence of Hermione's (or any other  
fighter/warrior/I  believe you are right, in that they would trust her to go with Harry but 
that  they would be understandably fearful for their daughter's life. But 
that's  part of the consequence of Hermione's (or any other  
fighter/warrior/<WBR>soldier's)


True but that doesn't settle the matter of whether or not they could  have 
discussed the option or it they agreed. We just don't have the canon  (or 
interview material) to support either claim.
 
Melissa
 
 
 


Kemper






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From keywestdaze at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 14 17:39:18 2009
From: keywestdaze at yahoo.com (Christy)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:39:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Legilimency v. Occlumency
In-Reply-To: <hb4uca+urtk@eGroups.com>
References: <hb4uca+urtk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <236000.27567.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188024

I totally agree with Carol's well-reasoned responses, as well as her sign-off. However, I'm more inclined to believe that the other memories Snape removed were the ones associated with the prophecy (hearing it in the Hogs Head and then relating it to Voldemort).




________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, October 14, 2009 12:31:06 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Legilimency v. Occlumency

  
<big snip>
Carol again:
Harry's ineptitude at Occlumency wasn't the point of Snape's removing those memories. (He'd need to be good at *Legilimency* to see them deliberately. ) Snape probably anticipated Harry's using a Protego (Shield Charm), either accidentally or deliberately, which would backfire on the caster of the Legilimens spell (Snape) and release random memories, which is exactly what happened when Harry saw Severus as a small child cowering in fear as his father yelled at his mother, a somewhat older Severus riding a bucking broom, and a teenage Severus killing flies. Snape clearly didn't want Harry to see SWM and two other memories (probably of his going to Dumbledore for help or promising to protect Harry--he hadn't yet agreed to kill Dumbledore or saved his life). Whether he was protecting his cover from Voldemort or simply didn't want Harry to know his true motivation (love of Lily) is unclear, but, either way, he was protecting those particular memories from
 accidentally being revealed. (I know that other people have other theories, but I'm convinced that mine is correct and that it's supported by the text.) 

<another big snip>
Carol responds:
I don't think so. He doesn't really trust anybody, but he comes close to trusting Snape. And he says that he "regrets" killing Snape, which may be true in the sense that he's killing what he views as a loyal and highly competent DE (no personal regret as in affection for Snape, of course). He simply thinks that once he's killed Harry, he will have won the war and that sacrificing this skilled and intelligent "servant" will enable him to do that. He no longer needs Snape as a spy, and he can always find another DE headmaster for Hogwarts. It's not that he distrusts him; Snape, after all, killed Dumbledore, supposedly on LV's orders. It's just that, in LV's view, he's expendable.

Carol, wishing that Snape had managed to talk to Harry at Hogwarts instead of being thwarted by McGonagall and forced to fly from the school
>


   


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Oct 14 19:58:20 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:58:20 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb4ij8+ln2q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb5ags+uera@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188025



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> I don't think I've missed it but I don't believe that Dean is  mentioned in 
> this chapter by name. I also seem to recall that the fact that he is a black 
> Londoner was information given verbally by JKR.
> 
> To return to the question, the Patil twins by their names suggest that they are 
> either of Indian or Pakistani ethnic origin.

Geoff (later):
I stupidly forgot one other student and remembered just after I hit the 
Send button. One person is certainly identified in canon as having an 
ethnic background - Blaise Zabini:

'He (Harry) recognised a Slytherin from their year, a tall, black boy with 
high cheekbones and long, slanting eyes....

"Now, do you know everyone?" Slughorn asked Harry and Neville. "Blaise 
Zabini is in your year of course -"''
(HBP "The Slug Club" p.137 UK edition)




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 20:26:44 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:26:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <21604244.1255526188600.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <21604244.1255526188600.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD63404.8070509@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188026



> Geoff:
> I don't think I've missed it but I don't believe that Dean is  mentioned in 
> this chapter by name. I also seem to recall that the fact that he is a black 
> Londoner was information given verbally by JKR.
>
> To return to the question, the Patil twins by their names suggest that they are 
> either of Indian or Pakistani ethnic origin.
>
>   
And don't forget Cho Chang. 
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 14 20:43:02 2009
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:43:02 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb4m8j+vff9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb5d4m+4s3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188027

> > Kemper earlier:
> > Here's  why I think there was no consent: no loving parent would ever consent, and we  get the impression that her parents do alright by her.
>   
> > Melissa:
> > Normally I'd agree but if Hermione actually sat down with her parents and  told them in exacting detail 
*(snip)*
I'd guess that they  would trust her and her judgement in this situation.
> 
> Kemper now:
> It would be nice for parents of soldiers fighting wars to forget they had a child in danger, it might even ease their sons and daughters' hearts/minds;  however, it would not be kind.

Ceridwen:
If I was Hermione's mother and she told me she was going to mind-wipe me "for my own protection" or whatever, I'd nod and smile and break her wand the minute I had the chance.  If I was angry enough I'd evict her from my house and tell her not to darken my door again until I'd calmed down, which might take a few months at least.  I would be angry and disappointed and hurt.  Especially hurt, to think that my kid thought so little of me.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Oct 15 01:31:21 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:31:21 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb3m94+d5q1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb5u19+i2km@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188028


> Kemper now:
 
> Here's why I think there was no consent: no loving parent would ever consent, and we get the impression that her parents do alright by her.

Pippin:
Why do you suppose they wouldn't consent? The goal was not to protect their peace of mind, it was to save them from ending up like the Longbottoms, powerful wizards mind you, but no match for the Death Eaters who tortured them into insanity. It's not a question of treating them like ickle Muggles who can't protect themselves. 

It's easy to make any dilemma in cannon into a false dilemma simply by imagining an alternative that JKR, to simplify the story, didn't bother to eliminate. But it's not presented as a false dilemma in canon. There aren't a lot of other options. The Grangers can't stay with the Weasleys, who are to pretend that their son is down with Spattergroit and they are more or less at peace with the new regime. 


Only the Prime Minister and the Dursleys get any protection from the Order. The rest of the Muggles are on their own, unless neighbor wizards use protective charms to conceal them. But that's against random killings, not the targeted assassinations that no one but Harry ever escaped.

 But I'm sure Mad-eye would have been willing to put the Grangers up with the Dursleys, if you think they'd have liked that better. Personally, I'd rather be memory-charmed in Australia, especially since there's no knowing how long I'd have to be in hiding. But that's just me.

Pippin






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 01:53:07 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:53:07 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb5ur5+onir@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb5va3+a7mn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188030

 Ceridwen:
> If I was Hermione's mother and she told me she was going to mind-wipe me "for
my own protection" or whatever, I'd nod and smile and break her wand the minute
I had the chance. If I was angry enough I'd evict her from my house and tell
her not to darken my door again until I'd calmed down, which might take a few
months at least. I would be angry and disappointed and hurt. Especially hurt,
to think that my kid thought so little of me.
>


Alla:

See, this I find hard to understand. I mean, we debated Hermione and her parents
so many times by now and I doubt anybody will move a lot from their POV, but I
still wonder. I mean, to be clear I do understand being angry if there was no
consent and knowing Hermione I would not be surprised if it was not.

But you will be THAT hurt and angry for your daughter trying to save your life?
No matter how misguided she was in that attempt, you are no match (you meaning
Mrs. Granger of course) for any of the wizards.

I mean, I see what Pippin wrote and I pretty much agree with her, except I am
not so sure that there was a consent, I think it is open question, but I mean,
surely wanting to save parent's life by any means is a forgivable intention, no?

Of course Hermione took away their right to decide for themselves, if they did
not consent and frankly I think it is extremely in character for Hermione, but I
mean, what if she did not? What if they did consent?

But even if they did not, if I was Hermione's mother, I surely would be mad
afterwards, but yeah, I will be grateful too after I calm down.

I do not like manipulation and deciding for others in RL and canon, but for
example, no matter how much I hate Dumbledore's manipulations, if he was
manipulating for example to SAVE Harry's life instead of slaughtering him, yeah,
I would be more inclined to forgive him, in my book saving a life just may be
worth it.

So in a hypothetical scenario, which is of course not happening, if Dumbledore
decides that maybe just maybe Harry should not be saving WW asses (mind you, I
am not concerned with anything else here, only this aspect. Maybe Harry deserves
to live his life and Dumbledore decides to say memory charm Harry and sent him
to live somewhere else till war is done, or something like this, I would
certainly think that Dumbledore was acting as his usual manipulating self, and I
would certainly think that he took away Harry's freedom of choice to decide
whether to fight and die or not.

However, however, I would absolutely positively forgive Dumbledore for this
manipulation. In my book saving a life just may be worth it.

JMO,

Alla



ETA:

Oh and before anybody asks this question, NO living with Dursleys does not count in my book as living his life till the war is done lol. This to me just was the beginning of manipulating Harry by making him suffer and make him love WW all the more.






From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 03:54:17 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:54:17 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb5u19+i2km@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb66d9+ad45@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188031

> Pippin:
> Why do you suppose they wouldn't consent? The goal was not to protect their peace of mind, it was to save them from ending up like the Longbottoms, powerful wizards mind you, but no match for the Death Eaters who tortured them into insanity. It's not a question of treating them like ickle Muggles who can't protect themselves. 

[snip]

Joey:

My POV too. 

Hermione is a Muggle-born and has been taunted for that by the Malfoys multiple times. She is the one who has been encouraging house-elves to fight for their rights. So, I don't think she would treat her own parents or anybody for that matter in a patronizing / condescending fashion when it comes to their capabilities / rights. 

Also, the DEs are not fighting righteously. They use Unforgivable curses with 100% ease and 0% remorse. With due respect to Muggles (I'm a Muggle too :-)), I'm not sure how a Muggle can protect himself / herself against that sort of an attack.

As for the consent from her parents, I agree with the earlier posts - it could have been either way - the canon does not give any definite information. And, in any case, I would think it was an act done out of care.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Thu Oct 15 05:38:31 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:38:31 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Top Ten
Message-ID: <c66.6007fa6f.38080f57@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188032

 
In a message dated 10/14/2009 3:47:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
ceridwennight at hotmail.com writes:

would  be angry and disappointed and hurt. Especially hurt, to think that 
my kid  thought so little of me.



But it wouldn't be because she thought so little of you.  It would  be 
because she thought the world of you.  
 
Hermione doesn't want her parents to end up dead like the Potters  or to be 
tortured into insanity like the Longbottoms.  As Pippen  pointed out they 
can't stay with the "biggest family of blood traitors" (to  paraphrase Bill) 
in the WW. Even Auntie Muriel wouldn't be an option.  
 
 
Better to be in Australia 
 
Melissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 05:49:57 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:49:57 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb66d9+ad45@eGroups.com>
References: <hb5u19+i2km@eGroups.com> <hb66d9+ad45@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <700201d40910142249j2ff86aafu6ab989a30561c83a@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188033

> Pippin:
> Why do you suppose they wouldn't consent? The goal was not to protect their peace of mind, it was to save them from ending up like the Longbottoms, powerful wizards mind you, but no match for the Death Eaters who tortured them into insanity. It's not a question of treating them like ickle Muggles who can't protect themselves.

> Joey:
> My POV too.
> Hermione is a Muggle-born and has been taunted for that by the Malfoys multiple times. She is the one who has been encouraging house-elves to fight for their rights. So, I don't think she would treat her own parents or anybody for that matter in a patronizing / condescending fashion when it comes to their capabilities / rights.

Kemper now:
It would be out of character for Hermione to get permission from her
parents.  She assumes she knows best.  She deliberately takes away the
choice of people and other sentient beings.

In CS, she essentially slips ruffies in two plump chocolate cakes:
'"I've filled these with a simple Sleeping Draught. All you have to do
is make sure Crabbe and Goyle find them.... Once they're asleep pull
out a few of their hairs [violate them] and hide them in a broom
closet."
[Ron and Harry both make attempts questioning this act]
No, it's not rape, but it's still a violation.

In OP, she curses the Dumbledore's Army enlistment form without
telling the signers that it's cursed. Taking away their informed
consent.
In OP, she hides hats and socks everywhere in the Gryffindor Tower in
a ruse to free the House Elves who find the attempt 'insulting' and
none of them will clean the tower anymore.

...and To Pippin's question:
 Why do you suppose they wouldn't consent?

Because it's not in her character to ask for consent.
She has come up with a decent plan.  Change identities and move to
Australia.  She's a brilliant witch.  She can make that happen.  We
haven't met DE's from other continents.  It's reasonable to assume
TDL's reach to Australia is very limited.  Her parents could
reasonably stay and live there and love and worry and pray(?) and hope
for their daughter.

> Joey
> As for the consent from her parents, I agree with the earlier posts - it could have been either way - the canon does not give any definite information. And, in any case, I would think it was an act done out of care.

Kemper now:
Canon gives very clear evidence of Hermione's lack of concern in
attaining consent.
It was an abusive act done out of selfishness.  It was a perversion of love.
It was not an act of love.

Kemper



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 06:42:33 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:42:33 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb5ags+uera@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb6g8p+kpkb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188034



---  "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> ,
> --- "Geoff" <gbannister10@> wrote:
> 
> Geoff:
> > I don't think I've missed it but I don't believe that Dean
> > is mentioned in this chapter by name. I also seem to recall
> > that the fact that he is a black  Londoner was information
> > given verbally by JKR.
> > 
> > ...
> 
> Geoff (later):
> ... One person is certainly identified in canon as having an 
> ethnic background - Blaise Zabini:
> 
> ...
>

bboyminn:

While a big deal has never been made of it, I believe Fred 
and George's friend Lee Jordan is black. I know he is played
by someone black in the movies, but I don't think this is
movie contamination.

According to the HP Lexicon -

Jordan, Lee - "He is a black boy with dreadlocks  (OP10) and is best friend and compatriot of Fred and George Weasley."

We seem to have a very reasonable cross section of people in
the books. The only thing missing would be someone of Middle
Eastern decent. And while they could actually be there, they 
are simply never clearly identified.

Steve/bluewizard





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 09:26:06 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 05:26:06 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <23506867.1255589171942.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <23506867.1255589171942.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD6EAAE.1050908@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188035


> We seem to have a very reasonable cross section of people in
> the books. The only thing missing would be someone of Middle
> Eastern decent. And while they could actually be there, they 
> are simply never clearly identified.
>
>   
In truth, though, JKR deals with complicated racial issues and 
discrimination through interactions in the WW: werewolfs, giants, 
muggle-born, goblins, centaurs even ghosts, with Nearly Headless Nick 
being denied a spot in the headless hunt. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 09:33:59 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 05:33:59 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS: Re: Wizarding
 Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <7389762.1255571790913.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <7389762.1255571790913.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD6EC87.8000309@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188036


> Alla:
>
> See, this I find hard to understand. I mean, we debated Hermione and her parents
> so many times by now and I doubt anybody will move a lot from their POV, 
Ah, where there's a canon there's a conflict.  Spoken as a survivor of 
many Sherlockian scion debates. 
> I do not like manipulation and deciding for others in RL and canon, but for
> example, no matter how much I hate Dumbledore's manipulations, if he was
> manipulating for example to SAVE Harry's life instead of slaughtering him, yeah,
> I would be more inclined to forgive him, in my book saving a life just may be
> worth it
Well, wouldn't amount to much of a story, though, much less a canon. 

Another point of view, however, is that DD isn't manipulating as much as 
educating and toughening HP.  Even Snape as he's leaving Hogwarts in HBP 
is really teaching Harry a lesson about life outside the gates.  The 
choice is always HP's.  And, as JKR takes care to point out throughout 
the series, it our choices that define us.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Oct 15 11:03:28 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:03:28 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb6g8p+kpkb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb6vi0+k6tv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188037



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

bboyminn:
> While a big deal has never been made of it, I believe Fred 
> and George's friend Lee Jordan is black. I know he is played
> by someone black in the movies, but I don't think this is
> movie contamination.
> 
> According to the HP Lexicon -
> 
> Jordan, Lee - "He is a black boy with dreadlocks  (OP10) and is best friend and compatriot of Fred and George Weasley."

Geoff:
That, of course, is canon confirmation because OP10 is the source 
of the quote, although it doesn't specifically say black; one assumes 
it because of the dreadlocks.

'"Nice dog, Harry!" called a tall boy with dreadlocks.

"Thanks, Lee," said Harry, grinning...'
(OOTP "Luna Lovegood" p.165 UK eidtion)





From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 15 11:03:11 2009
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:03:11 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb5va3+a7mn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb6vhf+4bkv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188038

Alla:
> But you will be THAT hurt and angry for your daughter trying to save your life?
> No matter how misguided she was in that attempt, you are no match (you meaning
> Mrs. Granger of course) for any of the wizards.

Ceridwen:
Yes, I would be that hurt and angry.  The Grangers may be different.  We don't see much of the Grangers in the series so I can't speak for the character of Mrs Granger at all.  I can only speak for myself and the discussion seems to be going down the road of "any parent" rather than just this one set of parents.  Since I'm a parent, I can vouch that "any parent" wouldn't necessarily sit still for the little chit of a daughter to pull this stuff on me.

Wizards are no more than human.  If I put the kid off her guard I could grab her wand.  Without her wand she's nothing more than a Muggle with potential.  Magic is done with wands.

Alla:
> I mean, I see what Pippin wrote and I pretty much agree with her, except I am
> not so sure that there was a consent, I think it is open question, but I mean,
> surely wanting to save parent's life by any means is a forgivable intention, no?

Ceridwen:
Forgivable intention, sure, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Alla:
> Of course Hermione took away their right to decide for themselves, if they did
> not consent and frankly I think it is extremely in character for Hermione, but I
> mean, what if she did not? What if they did consent?

Ceridwen:
Then that would be different.  I can't see any parent agreeing to forget their child unless the child hurt them so much that they never wanted to remember that child again.  There are parents, I've heard, that banish their child and pretend he or she is dead rather than deal with behavior or pain from that child.  I don't understand that mentality either, but it happens.  I would equate the Grangers agreeing to be memory-wiped with their not wanting to remember their daughter and that just does not compute to me with the parents I know or with myself.  In fact, I'd imagine that, if the Grangers agreed to this, they may actually not want their memories restored and that Hermione bringing it up herself was a godsend along the lines of someone wanting a divorce having the spouse saying that he or she wanted one as well.

Alla:
> But even if they did not, if I was Hermione's mother, I surely would be mad
> afterwards, but yeah, I will be grateful too after I calm down.

Ceridwen:
This is where we would part company.  I would never be grateful for someone treating me, an adult, as a child.  The dynamics between me and my daughter would change for the worse forever.  I could never trust that child again.  I would be leery of anything that child told me, I certainly wouldn't want that child to be behind me.

Alla:
> I do not like manipulation and deciding for others in RL and canon, but for
> example, no matter how much I hate Dumbledore's manipulations, if he was
> manipulating for example to SAVE Harry's life instead of slaughtering him, yeah,
> I would be more inclined to forgive him, in my book saving a life just may be
> worth it.

Ceridwen:
Harry was a child when Dumbledore began his manipulations.  Children can't make decisions for themselves.  They don't have the necessary skills or back-knowledge to do so.  Had Dumbledore lived til Harry's 17th birthday and still continued his manipulations, even for the best of intent, he would have been overstepping, IMO.  At that point he owed Harry a full explanation of the situation and his own past actions so Harry could make an informed decision for himself.

Alla:
> However, however, I would absolutely positively forgive Dumbledore for this (snipped)
> manipulation. In my book saving a life just may be worth it.

Ceridwen:
I think Dumbledore, in such a scenario, must give Harry the choice.  He couldn't have done any differently than he did in order for Harry to be able to make an informed decision.  A person's life belongs to that person, not to some Great Wizard with a White Beard, IMO.  For me, I would rather have all the facts, difficult as they are, and decide for myself.

Alla
ETA:
> 
> Oh and before anybody asks this question, NO living with Dursleys does not count in my book as living his life till the war is done lol. This to me just was the beginning of manipulating Harry by making him suffer and make him love WW all the more.

Ceridwen:
Exactly.

Ceridwen.




From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 15 11:16:06 2009
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:16:06 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <c66.6007fa6f.38080f57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <hb709m+itcr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188039

Melissa: 
> But it wouldn't be because she thought so little of you.  It would  be 
> because she thought the world of you.

Ceridwen:
It wouldn't matter why she did it.  I wouldn't like it.  I would never trust her again.

Melissa: 
> Hermione doesn't want her parents to end up dead like the Potters  or to be 
> tortured into insanity like the Longbottoms.  As Pippen  pointed out they 
> can't stay with the "biggest family of blood traitors" (to  paraphrase Bill) 
> in the WW. Even Auntie Muriel wouldn't be an option.

Ceridwen:
Pippin also said something about the Dursleys and the PM being protected by the OotP.  Why not the Grangers when everyone knows Hermione is part of Harry's group and her parents might be targeted?  They would be the logical people to protect, along with the Dursleys.  Why didn't Hermione allow more competent witches and wizards help her with this decision?  Canon doesn't even mention her consulting with anyone before she jumped in and decided.

It was extremely arrogant of the daughter to assume that she knew better than her parents, IMO.  Remember, she had a wand, she was armed, while they weren't.  Even if she discussed it with them, they know she has a wand, a weapon, and that she can use it against them.  Even if she discussed it with them, did they really have a choice?

Melissa:
> Better to be in Australia 

Ceridwen:
Only if I intend never to regain my memory and come back to my ruined dental practice and the house that went back to the mortgage company because I thought I was someone else for a year and didn't make the payments.  By doing this, Hermione effectively ruined her parents' lives and livelihoods.  They probably lost patients, their practice, their home and everything they had collected through their lives.  Families have been torn apart for less.

Ceridwen.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 11:41:24 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:41:24 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb6vhf+4bkv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb71p4+g600@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188040


Ceridwen:
Yes, I would be that hurt and angry. The Grangers may be different. <SNIP>


Alla:

Okay.

Ceridwen:
Wizards are no more than human. If I put the kid off her guard I could grab her
wand. Without her wand she's nothing more than a Muggle with potential. Magic
is done with wands.

Alla:

When I said you are not a match for the wizards, I meant it more in a sense that you are not a match for the wizards who may want to kill you simply by virtue of you being a muggle, you know?

I am sure you can break a wand of your daughter who really does not expect you to do that. If she does expect you to do that personally I sincerely doubt that you succeed, but again that is not I meant. I meant that she is legitimately concerned for your lives, and IMO you are pretty much powerless and helpless against simple Avada.


Alla:
> I mean, I see what Pippin wrote and I pretty much agree with her, except I am
> not so sure that there was a consent, I think it is open question, but I mean,
> surely wanting to save parent's life by any means is a forgivable intention,
no?

Ceridwen:
Forgivable intention, sure, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Alla:

I would go as far as to even say justifiable intention.


Alla:
> But even if they did not, if I was Hermione's mother, I surely would be mad
> afterwards, but yeah, I will be grateful too after I calm down.

Ceridwen:
This is where we would part company. I would never be grateful for someone
treating me, an adult, as a child. The dynamics between me and my daughter
would change for the worse forever. I could never trust that child again. I
would be leery of anything that child told me, I certainly wouldn't want that
child to be behind me.

Alla:

Yes, we do. I am not a parent, but I am somebody's daughter and when I became an adult, sometimes I had say or not say things to parents which I considered and still consider to be done for parent's own good. Do I still think so? Absolutely. I do not ever want for anybody to be in this position, but yes I think there comes a time when sometimes child who grew up may know better than the parents.

Note that I say child who grew up. I know Hermione is eighteen when she does that (or not even eighteen yet), but since they had to take up very adult responsibilities, I would judge her actions as someone who is even older in RL.

Kemper:
Because it's not in her character to ask for consent.
She has come up with a decent plan. Change identities and move to
Australia. She's a brilliant witch. She can make that happen. We
haven't met DE's from other continents. It's reasonable to assume
TDL's reach to Australia is very limited. Her parents could
reasonably stay and live there and love and worry and pray(?) and hope
for their daughter.

Alla:

However, characters may do things which they did not do before and since we clearly do not know if she did or did not ask, well I think it is fair to assume that she may have. I mean they are her parents, I would think it is a possibility that she would treat them differently simply because they are her parents.
How do we know that Dark Lordie's reach to Australia is limited? What if he was there? What if her parents decided to travel with their new identities?

Kemper now:
Canon gives very clear evidence of Hermione's lack of concern in
attaining consent.
It was an abusive act done out of selfishness. It was a perversion of love.
It was not an act of love.

Alla:

Selfish act is the act done for your own benefit. What do you think was Hermione's benefit in doing what she did?


Ceridwen:
Only if I intend never to regain my memory and come back to my ruined dental
practice and the house that went back to the mortgage company because I thought
I was someone else for a year and didn't make the payments. By doing this,
Hermione effectively ruined her parents' lives and livelihoods. They probably
lost patients, their practice, their home and everything they had collected
through their lives. Families have been torn apart for less.

Alla:

Quite possible. She also saved their lives. If they decide that impossibility of rebuilding their dental practice is more horrible and impossible to forgive offense than saving their lives, well this is their decision of course.

As I said, I do not like Hermione taking their choice away from them, if she did it without their consent, but I certainly understand why she did that.



Rick:
Another point of view, however, is that DD isn't manipulating as much as
educating and toughening HP. Even Snape as he's leaving Hogwarts in HBP
is really teaching Harry a lesson about life outside the gates. The
choice is always HP's. And, as JKR takes care to point out throughout
the series, it our choices that define us.

Alla:

Yes, I know and disagree with this one, heh. Snape may have teaching Harry, or he may have taking the possibility to engage his abusive tendencies towards the boy whom he hated till he died. And I also disagree that the choice was always Harry's. Oh I know that he chose to sacrifice himself on his own and I would not have Harry any other way. However I would argue that Dumbledore lead him towards becoming the person who made this choice all his life and that I find disgusting. Starting with placing him with Dursleys, which of course was never his choice, then making sure no adults knew about the road Dumbledore put in front of him. Oh sure Harry, tell nobody about the horcruxes and prophecy, nobody but Ron and Hermione. I wonder was Dumbledore afraid that if say Remus or Arthur or Molly actually knew they may have found other possibility to dealing with all this but teenager dying? Oh do not get me started on dear Dumbledore LOL.

JMO,

Alla







From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 13:38:10 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:38:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS: Re: Wizarding
 Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <9949222.1255607135675.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <9949222.1255607135675.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD725C2.3040205@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188041


> Ceridwen:
> Wizards are no more than human. If I put the kid off her guard I could grab her
> wand. Without her wand she's nothing more than a Muggle with potential. Magic
> is done with wands.
>   
Actually wands concentrate and direct power.  After all, under aged 
children can do magic (take the memory of the young Snape spying on Lily 
and Petunia before Lily knows that she's a witch).  It's unclear whether 
apparating requires a wand, at least certainly not a wand in the hand. 
> Alla:
>
> Yes, I know and disagree with this one, heh. Snape may have teaching Harry, or he may have taking the possibility to engage his abusive tendencies towards the boy whom he hated till he died. And I also disagree that the choice was always Harry's. Oh I know that he chose to sacrifice himself on his own and I would not have Harry any other way. However I would argue that Dumbledore lead him towards becoming the person who made this choice all his life and that I find disgusting. Starting with placing him with Dursleys, which of course was never his choice, then making sure no adults knew about the road Dumbledore put in front of him. Oh sure Harry, tell nobody about the horcruxes and prophecy, nobody but Ron and Hermione. I wonder was Dumbledore afraid that if say Remus or Arthur or Molly actually knew they may have found other possibility to dealing with all this but teenager dying? Oh do not get me started on dear Dumbledore LOL.
>
>   
With TDL and all the DEs looking for him, I don't think DD could have 
successfully hidden HP forever.  Besides, wouldn't have been much of a 
book otherwise.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Oct 15 13:58:25 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:58:25 -0400
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD6EAAE.1050908@gmail.com>
References: <23506867.1255589171942.JavaMail.root@n11> <4AD6EAAE.1050908@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AD72A81.6050509@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188042

Rick H. Kennerly wrote:
> In truth, though, JKR deals with complicated racial issues and 
> discrimination through interactions in the WW: werewolfs, giants, 
> muggle-born, goblins, centaurs even ghosts, with Nearly Headless Nick 
> being denied a spot in the headless hunt. 
Bart:
    In JURASSIC PARK 2, there is a wonderful line. When Richard 
Attenborough informs Jeff Goldblum that he learned from his mistakes, 
Golblum replies, "Yeah, now you're making all new mistakes." Well, in 
the Potterverse, the wizards have learned from the old bigotries. Now 
they have all new bigotries.

    I had a similar situation. I went to one of New York's "special" 
high schools (where entrance was based on winning a city-wide 
competition). There was a cross-section from all over the city; all 
different "races", cultural backgrounds, economic backgrounds, etc. The 
one thing every student had in common was that they were good at 
scholastic endeavors. The various bigotries found in many high schools 
were considerably less; however, there was an intellectual snobbery. Not 
exactly a pecking order within the school, but very much a "wizards vs. 
muggles" type of mentality.

    And I have seen something similar among young Harry Potter fans; a 
"we're the Wizards, they're the muggles" mentality.

    There is a subtle form of bigotry which is present in the "real 
world". In 19th century Europe and America, it was referred to as "the 
white man's burden". It is still a form of belief that one group of 
humans is inherently superior to another set of humans, and, out of 
kindness, the "inferior" humans have to be given certain advantages to 
create an illusion of equality. It continues today with the twisting of 
the concept of affirmative action from reversing previous handicaps 
forced on some groups into a mentality of "those people aren't as smart 
as WE are, so we have to give them extra points to pretend that they 
are", or accepting savagery among some groups because they can't be 
expected to be able to live up to "our standards". And I am afraid that, 
in the Harry Potter books, Rowling is carefully training young people 
into this form of prejudice, as in "We are better than they are, but we 
are also kind, so we'll pretend that they are as good as us, so that 
their feelings won't be hurt."

    Bart


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Oct 15 14:17:33 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:17:33 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS: Re: Wizarding
 Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <4AD6EC87.8000309@gmail.com>
References: <7389762.1255571790913.JavaMail.root@n11> <4AD6EC87.8000309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AD72EFD.5090003@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188043

Rick H. Kennerly wrote:
> Another point of view, however, is that DD isn't manipulating as much as 
> educating and toughening HP.  Even Snape as he's leaving Hogwarts in HBP 
> is really teaching Harry a lesson about life outside the gates.  The 
> choice is always HP's.  And, as JKR takes care to point out throughout 
> the series, it our choices that define us.

Bart:
    I recall that before DH came out, I was pushing here the belief that 
Snape's final words to Harry in HBP was an attempt to get in a few last 
words of advice. In a less popular opinion, I found it a bit too 
coincidental that Hermoine and Ron had exactly the skills needed to get 
through the traps protecting the Philosopher's Stone, and, based on DD's 
remarks, that the whole thing was a set-up as an educational exercise 
(and in an even less popular opinion, that DD manipulated the friendship 
into being).

    Bart


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 14:36:35 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:36:35 -0000
Subject: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <4AD4C786.20505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hb7c1j+81ad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188044

Carol earlier:
> > It could be a Flint

Rick: 
> Don't understand Flint.

Carol again:
"Flint" means an error or inconsistency in an HP book. The name comes from Marcus Flint, the Slytherin Quidditch captain, who's a seventh-year in one book (CoS?) and then comes back as a seventh-year in the next book as well (PoA?). JKR explained what must really have been an oversight or failure to check her fictional facts by saying that Flint had been held back a year. Another example is the Thestrals pulling the carriages to take the students to the Hogwarts Express at the end of GoF. Harry ought to be able to see them because he's witnessed Cedric Diggory's death (the fact that his eyes were closed against the blinding flash doesn't matter); he can see the Thestrals at the beginning of OoP. JKR explained that one by saying that Cedric's death hadn't sunk in yet. Actually, I'm sure, she either forgot about the Thestrals at the end of GoF or, more likely, withheld them until OoP because they fit into the plot of that story and it would have been awkward for Harry to see them prematurely.

Carol, noting that many other Flints and possible Flints have been discussed on this list and wondering what a search for "Flint" would yield given the inadequacy of the Yahoo search engine






From brian at rescueddoggies.com  Thu Oct 15 12:07:27 2009
From: brian at rescueddoggies.com (Brian)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:07:27 -0300
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten  Hermione's "guilt"
Message-ID: <4AD7107F.3080708@rescueddoggies.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188045


Kemper:
"Canon gives very clear evidence of Hermione's lack of concern in 
attaining consent.
It was an abusive act done out of selfishness. It was a perversion of love.
It was not an act of love."


With respect, that's doesn't make sense.
Sending them away to be safe could be construed as an act of selfishness.
Making it so they won't miss her if she dies?
Just HOW is that selfish?
I'm not debating whether she is right or wrong to do it, IF she does it 
without consent, but it isn't selfish.
And many of you are convicting her of doing it without consent on 
carefully selected character evidence only, much of that from when she 
was TWELVE years old, there isn't even circumstantial evidence against her.
If I'm ever accused of a crime, I hope you lot aren't my jury!

Brian



From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 15:10:13 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:10:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <18402106.1255615316137.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <23506867.1255589171942.JavaMail.root@n11>
 <4AD6EAAE.1050908@gmail.com> <18402106.1255615316137.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD73B55.8010909@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188046


> Rick H. Kennerly wrote:
>   
>> In truth, though, JKR deals with complicated racial issues and 
>> discrimination through interactions in the WW: werewolfs, giants, 
>> muggle-born, goblins, centaurs even ghosts, with Nearly Headless Nick 
>> being denied a spot in the headless hunt. 
>>     
> Bart:
>
>     There is a subtle form of bigotry which is present in the "real 
> world". In 19th century Europe and America, it was referred to as "the 
> white man's burden". 
>   
Cranky Elf is going to put me back on supervision because we're straying 
off topic, but... 

An author has to make a choice between describing how things are and how 
things ought to be.  There is always a tension between the two, and I 
think JKR hits the mark pretty well.  It's interesting that the nations 
most weighed down in that 19th century snobbishness--the White Man's 
Burden--have ended up being generally the most open and accepting of 
newcomers--The British Empire, Canada (I repeat myself) the US, really 
most of Western Europe.  The nations most in trouble in the world--by 
any measure--seem also to be the most inward looking countries. 

No doubt there are divisions between people in the west, but they tend 
to be more along lines of intelligence, talent, and money, not origin or 
skin color.  I think the movies do a better job of showing the 
multinational absorption of the UK than the books because they are a 
visual medium, but that's mostly a failure of careful reading and 
knowledge of dialect (I'm informed by native British speakers, that 
particularly in the UK editions, there are subtle regional dialect clues 
that are hard for us in the US to pick out (as a native born son of the 
south, I've studied English as a Second Language all my life, so I'm 
lost at UK dialect). 

One of the things I love about the movies is the disorientation I feel 
every time Cho speaks--The King's English (maybe with a bit of Welsh 
intonation) coming out of an oriental face.  I have the same feeling 
when ever I swing through Hong Kong or Sydney. 

In the end, people tend to find a way to distinguish among themselves no 
matter how level the playing field: boss/worker, police/citizen, 
parent/teacher, jock/nerd. 

My philosophy is that everyone is an expert in his or her own life. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 15:59:52 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:59:52 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb7gto+b6h0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188047

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone
> 
> Chapter Seven: The Sorting Hat
<snip brief summary>

> Discussion Questions:
> 
> 1. How do you think Harry's first impressions of Hogwarts differed from those of the other first year students? It seemed like nobody knew what to expect for the sorting, but do you think those who had grown up knowing about Hogwarts were surprised by other things?

Carol responds:
We're so confined to Harry's point of view that it's hard to know what the other students expect, but it does seems as if parents of Half-Bloods and Pure-bloods have for some reason withheld the details of the Sorting ceremony. OTOH, most of them know more than Harry does about the respective Houses, and those who do know about them have firm opinions about which is best. (I think that JKR is doing her best to put us in Harry's shoes and give us his uncontaminated first impressions of everything from ghosts to moving staircases.)
> 
> 2. Who is your favorite of the ghosts introduced in this chapter, and why?

Carol:
I suppose the cheerful Fat Friar, who wants to make everyone happy, even Peeves. Too bad we don't learn about the Grey Lady, but JKR is holding her in reserve. (BTW, I'm mildly annoyed by NHN's Elizabethan ruff and Jacobean plumed hat given that he died in 1492, but I suppose JKR's history is on a par with her math. If he'd really been dead 400 rather than 500 years, as indicated in the early editions of SS/PS, the clothing would be less anachronistic even though she's still combining different decades.)
> 
> 3. Is there any real-life place you thought of when you first read about the Great Hall?

Carol:
Not really. I picture a cross between a school or university cafeteria (with benches, which must be awkward to climb over if you're wearing robes that don't open in the front) and a medieval dining hall with an enchanted ceiling. I was more concerned with trying to figure out the orientation of the tables relative to the doors and other (not always consistent) details of the layout of Hogwarts.
> 
> 4. If you were being sorted, would you have a discussion with the hat like Harry, or would you go with wherever it wanted to put you?

Carol:
The thing is, we don't know whether the hat has discussions with the other students or not. Hermione says that it wanted to put her in Ravenclaw, it doesn't hesitate with her as it does with, say, Seamus or, IIRC, Neville. Most of them it sorts instantly. I think it just reads their minds and puts them in the most suitable house unless they resist. Obviously, most Muggleborns wouldn't express a preference, and if what the hat sees agrees with the child's preference (as with Draco), the Sorting is instant. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the Hat would put me in Ravenclaw, which is both where I'd belong and where I'd be happiest, so there would be no discussion.
> 
> 5. Do you think any of the Weasleys wished they were in a house other than Gryffindor?

Carol:
I doubt it. Percy does seem like a misfit, but he'd want to be in Gryffindor because his parents expected it and to live up to the standard set by his older brothers (he'd follow Bill's example rather than Charlie's in going for high marks and leadership rather than Quidditch skills). He'd have done well in Ravenclaw, but I think he must have wanted to be in Gryffindor and the hat would see a kind of courage there (he later stands up to his own family and then has the courage to apologize) and would not argue with him. I think he'd be happy with that placement and feel at home.
> 
> 6. Do you think each house is the same size? Do you think any have gotten bigger or smaller over time?

Carol:
Clearly, the Houses in Harry's year are the same size (ten students each) based not only on the number of brooms in the flying class and earmuffs in the (CoS) Herbology class and other internal evidence but on JKR's notes and the Sorting ceremony itself. I noticed that in "The Prince's Tale," she has Severus among the last dozen students, which means that there would be about eleven students to sort after "Snape, Severus," yet we know there were only four Gryffindor boys in that year (MWPP). Had there been any others, they'd have been part of the gang--after all, they let Peter in, and they couldn't have kept the Invisibility Cloak or their midnight excursions secret from dorm mates. Yet JKR has more people present at Quidditch games or the Yule Ball than is consistent with the population of the school, and Harry's fifth-year DADA class (all Gryffindors) suddenly expands to thirty students, and Trelawney's class has a lot more pouffs (sp?) and tables than needed for ten (later nine) students. 

To answer your question, I think that most of the time, the classes are quite small as evidenced by Harry's and his father's years. Otherwise, the teaching load for twelve teachers would be unmanageable. I also think that the number of students per House is similar, with the Hat "quartering" the student body (which would conveniently cooperate in falling neatly into categories). Then, again, September 1 is always a Monday in the HP books, so anything can happen.
> 
> 7. What do you think happened to Sally-Anne Perks?

Carol:
No idea. Is she left out of the list when the students are called into the OWL exam? (Somebody is.)
> 
> 8. Dean Thomas is specifically described as black in his description, but there is not a mention of race for the other students. Do you think there is racial/ethnic diversity at Hogwarts, or is Dean the only non-white student?

Carol responds:
We know that Angelina Johnson and Lee Jordan are black. Cho Chang is obviously of Chinese heritage, and the Patil Twins seem to be from India given Parvati's cobra Boggart (IIRC). I think that race is simply a nonissue at Hogwarts. No one thinks or talks about it; interracial dating is accepted without a comment. At Hogwarts and in the WW at large, what matters is not skin color but the presence or absence of magic. Even the good guys implicitly regard Muggles as inferior. Among some Pure-bloods, this prejudice extends further to include Muggle-borns whose Muggle "blood" they regard as inferior. Any prejudice that Dean, for example, experiences is the result of his assumed status (in DH) as a Muggle-born or anti-Gryffindor antagonism on the part of Slytherin when he's on the Quidditch team. The same applies to Angelina. (I don't remember anyone except Umbridge disliking Lee Jordan for any reason--though the Slytherins can't have appreciated his Quidditch commentary.)
> 
> 9. If you had the banquet of your choice magically appear in front of you, what would it include?

Carol:
Definitely not turkey or ham. Probably filet mignon with potatoes au gratin and homemade bread. (Yeah, I'd eat some veggies if they were properly cooked, but only to be a good girl.) Dessert, if I had room, lemon meringue pie. I'm not a gourmet.
> 
> 10. What did you think of Neville's account of his family's concern that he wasn't magical?

Carol:
First, "My family thought I was all Muggle" is misleading. Neville can't possibly be a Muggle unless he's a changeling. JKR should have introduced the term "Squib" at that point even though it wouldn't play a role until the next book. As for dangling a child out a window and the rest, there's really no excuse. I realize that Uncle Archie later gives Neville his toad and the Mimmbulus Mimbletonia, but he seems to hold a view similar to the one Auntie Muriel attributes to her parents' generation--if you have a Squib child, send him or her to live with Muggles (or, if you're a Black, burn his name off the family tree). Imagine a family of Muggle musical geniuses ridiculing a child and then giving him up for adoption because the music lessons they forced down his throat produced no results and add to that exposing the child to dangers that could kill him and you have Neville's family--and yet Uncle Archie seems to feel no malice toward the possible Squib. He's just not quite human in his eyes until he proves to be magical. Gran is different. She loves Neville, but she thinks that strictness and unfavorable comparisons with his parents (and his father's wand) will provide Neville with the incentive to be brave and talented like his Auror parents, especially his father. (I can't of course, read that first description of Neville's childhood without bringing in everything else I know about him, but it's just sad. Imagine the treatment a real Squib like Filch or Mrs. Figg must have received.)
> 
> 11. The first time you read the chapter, what did you think was happening when Harry had the pain in his scar while looking at Snape and Quirrell?

Carol:
I really can't remember, but I was intrigued by Snape (and vaguely curious about Quirrell's turban). That may have been my first inkling (other than comic exaggeration and the quickly overthrown misconception that Harry's parents were killed in a car accident) that the narrator was not always reliable. 
> 
> 12. What was your first impression of Dumbledore? Aside from the fact that we learn so much more about him as the series goes on, do you think that the "few words" and the way he introduces the school song are typical of him?

Carol:
I loved his quirky sense of humor and twinkling eyes. I certainly didn't think of him as a powerful figure capable of Gandalf-style anger (which I think we first glimpse in GoF). He seemed like a kindly old man, eccentric and possibly brilliant as Percy said, but I had no inkling that he was a manipulative plotter who expected other people to risk their lives. I don't think I questioned his motives for leaving Harry with the Dursleys, either.
> 
> 13. Did you think there was any greater significance to Dumbledore's statement that music is "a magic beyond all we do here"?

Carol:
No. It seemed like a throwaway line. We learn in the chocolate frog card that he likes opera and ten-pin bowling (both Muggle pursuits) but we never learn any more about it.
> 
> 14. How does the Gryffindor common room compare to the atmosphere at the school you attended?

Carol:
There's no comparison. I attended American public schools. The closest parallel would be a schoolbus, and even there, you mostly interracted with the person next to you. One day on a band trip, some of the rowdier boys started throwing red hots (cinnamon imperials). That's as close as we ever got to the chaos of a common room with the Weasley Twins in it. And, of course, there were no fireplaces or sofas at my schools, and the only beds were in the nurse's office. 
> 
> 15. What did you think of Harry's dream the first time you read the chapter?

Carol:
It was pretty clear that Harry already associated Draco and Snape, or Slytherin in general, with Voldemort. The role of Quirrell's turban in the dream turns out to be prescient on Harry's part, but I didn't know it on a first reading--only that the turban would somehow be important.

Carol, thanking Megan for the interesting questions




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Oct 15 17:56:42 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:56:42 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD73B55.8010909@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hb7noq+d0kd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188048

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:

Rick H. Kennerly:
> ...(as a native born son of the 
> south, I've studied English as a Second Language all my life, so I'm 
> lost at UK dialect). 
> 
> One of the things I love about the movies is the disorientation I feel 
> every time Cho speaks--The King's English (maybe with a bit of Welsh 
> intonation) coming out of an oriental face.  I have the same feeling 
> when ever I swing through Hong Kong or Sydney. 

Geoff:
Staying marginally OT, I must agree that you are lost at UK dialect.

Katie Leung, who plays Cho Chang in the "medium that dare not 
speak it's name" was born in Scotland and has a very marked Scots 
accent.
:-)




From sweenlit at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 18:54:23 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:54:23 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <4AD4CA7A.5070207@gmail.com>
References: <hb29hj+2kj4@eGroups.com> <hb2alb+atrm@eGroups.com>
	 <17614142.1255452969333.JavaMail.root@n11>
	 <4AD4CA7A.5070207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0910151154l2a63f161ld3102ac6a549adec@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188049

Lynda:
A simple change of location would keep the Dursleys away from office and
school. It seems to me that was the point. Get them out of danger. And I'm
sure they could locate a tv fairly quickly if one weren't provided.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Thu Oct 15 18:54:49 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:54:49 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Top Ten
Message-ID: <c83.4a1c2e07.3808c9f9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188050

In a message dated 10/15/2009 6:17:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
ceridwennight at hotmail.com writes:
 
 
Ceridwen:

Pippin  also said something about the Dursleys and the PM being protected 
by the OotP.  Why not the Grangers when everyone knows Hermione is part of 
Harry's group and  her parents might be targeted? They would be the logical 
people to protect,  along with the Dursleys. Why didn't Hermione allow more 
competent witches and  wizards help her with this decision? Canon doesn't even 
mention her consulting  with anyone before she jumped in and decided.


Canon doesn't mention *anything at all* which is really the  point.  We 
don't know if they offered or if Hermione asked about it.  Just like we don't 
know what if any  discussion took place with her  and her parents.  
 
Ceridwen:
 
It was extremely arrogant of the daughter to assume that she knew  better 
than her parents, IMO. 
 
 
Regarding the WW and the DE's it isn't an assumption. .Hermione does know  
the situation better.  Remember in OOtP she mentioned about how being  a 
prefect was  something that her parents would understand. The  implication 
being that they really don't understand any of it very well.  Hermione is always 
a font of information regarding any and everything so I can't  believe that 
she hadn't told them anything over the previous 6 years.
 
Melissa:

> Better to be in Australia  

Ceridwen:
Only if I intend never to regain my memory and come back to  my ruined 
dental practice and the house that went back to the mortgage company  because I 
thought I was someone else for a year and didn't make the payments. By  
doing this, Hermione effectively ruined her parents' lives and livelihoods. They 
 probably lost patients, their practice, their home and everything they had 
 collected through their lives. Families have been torn apart for  less.


How do we know that Hermione didn't  arrange to take care of all of those 
things? It would be completely in  character for her to do so because she's 
not one to leave things to chance if  she can prevent it. 
 
Being dead is tearing a family  apart.  
 
That's not saying I wouldn't be furious with any of my 3 daughters if they  
pulled something like that on me (without consent).  But I would understand 
 and I would forgive. 
 
Melissa
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 19:19:25 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:19:25 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <81368.1255629462751.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <81368.1255629462751.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD775BD.3040907@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188051

Geoff:
> Staying marginally OT, I must agree that you are lost at UK dialect.
>
> Katie Leung, who plays Cho Chang in the "medium that dare not 
> speak it's name" was born in Scotland and has a very marked Scots 
> accent.
> :-)
>   

Oh....See?  No ear for UK accents and dialects. 

Although, now that I think about it, I shouldn't have said Katie had a 
Welsh accent because we get a lot of British Educational TV over here, 
so we know from that series on British folkways and manners, Benny Hill, 
that if Benny can't understand a low level functionary, lorry driver, or 
scullery maid, it's always a person from Wales.  All the clues we 
usually use to decipher Britain are stripped from the JKR movies: 
clothing, riding crops, and steamy interaction below stairs.  In the HP 
movies everybody wears the same thing (why do the girls wear neckties 
and who taught then to tie them?)

Tonk's "Wotcher, Harry?" threw me for the longest, which reads like a 
warning to us (Wha'cher [self], Harry, round those dragons).  Now it 
sounds like the song of a cardinal.  Don't know how many times I've 
heard Seamus pronounced like a bodily fluid.  Steven Fry did a nice 
little primer on British names though, things like Fothergill being 
pronounced Finshaw (more or less...on spelling and pronunciation).  
British English is a land mine for us, I'm afraid.


-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 20:17:42 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:17:42 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb8016+3cf5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188052

Zara:
Wow, Megan, thanks for all the fun discussion questions. What a list!
 
> Discussion Questions:
> 2. Who is your favorite of the ghosts introduced in this chapter, and why?

Zara:
Nearly Headless Nick, for his ridiculous name and being the ghost we get to know best. I thought the Bloody Baron seemed cool, but we get to know him a lot less well.

> 4. If you were being sorted, would you have a discussion with the hat like
> Harry, or would you go with wherever it wanted to put you?

Zara:
This would depend on where the Hat suggested I should go. As I expect it would stick me in Ravenclaw, I probably would not need to. <g> But if it had ideas lower on the alphabet, I might argue with it, I suppose.

> 5. Do you think any of the Weasleys wished they were in a house other than
> Gryffindor?

Zara:
No. I think they'd all want Gryffindor, for various reasons. Fitting in with the family not least among them. 

> 6. Do you think each house is the same size? Do you think any have gotten bigger
> or smaller over time?

Zara:
Yes, I do think the houses are the same size (give or take, the number of students entering may not always be evenly divisible into four parts). That Hat states in one of its songs that it "quarters" the students; I take that to be textual evidence that it divides up the students into groups of equal size. It's also sensible, Houses that compete in sports, academics, etc., that have the same number of staff assigned to look after them, should be of roughly equal size for it to be fair

> 8. Dean Thomas is specifically described as black in his description, but there is not a mention of race for the other students. Do you think there is racial/ethnic diversity at Hogwarts, or is Dean the only non-white student?

Zara:
I envision Hogwarts as having South and East Asian students (the Patik Twins and Cho) and black students (Dean, but also Lee and Angelina) as well as "white" ones. I suspect Anthony Goldstein (Ravenclaw) might be an example of a Jewish student, though this is not made explicit.

> 10. What did you think of Neville's account of his family's concern that he
> wasn't magical?

Zara:
I found it somewhat over-the-top in a Dursleyesque way. But it did fit Neville and his insecurities well.
 
> 11. The first time you read the chapter, what did you think was happening when
> Harry had the pain in his scar while looking at Snape and Quirrell?

Zara:
I no longer recall. I am pretty sure I eventually added this to the list of reasons I expected (with regret) that Snape wouldprove to be the villain of the book.

> 12. What was your first impression of Dumbledore? Aside from the fact that we
> learn so much more about him as the series goes on, do you think that the "few
> words" and the way he introduces the school song are typical of him?

Zara:
I found him somewhat annoying. I can like a "brilliant but mental" character, but I prefer to see evidence of both. I never really warmed to him until DH, though....

> 13. Did you think there was any greater significance to Dumbledore's statement
> that music is "a magic beyond all we do here"?

Zara:
Sort of. Not about music per se, but it is in line with the idea within the series that the common humanity that unites us all is more important than magic (or any other skill). Witches and Muggles both can enjoy/create art and music, love, have friends, createm be wise, etc.
 
> 14. How does the Gryffindor common room compare to the atmosphere at the school
> you attended?

Zara:
It's like another planet. It reminds me of a library in my college, though). 





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 20:18:01 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:18:01 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb4ij8+ln2q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb801p+2j6s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188053

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> I don't believe that Dean is  mentioned in this chapter by name. 
> I also seem to recall that the fact that he is a black 
> Londoner was information given verbally by JKR.


zanooda:

Dean is not mentioned at all in the British edition, but in the American edition he is referred to as "a black boy even taller than Ron" :-). I agree with you about Lee, though - IIRC, he is never actually called "black" in the books. It's just his suggestive dreadlocks that are mentioned :-).







From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Oct 15 20:18:06 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:18:06 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD775BD.3040907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hb801u+t5at@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188054

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:

Rick H. Kennerly:
> Oh....See?  No ear for UK accents and dialects. 
> 
> ...All the clues we usually use to decipher Britain are stripped 
> from the JKR movies: clothing, riding crops, and steamy interaction 
> below stairs.  

Geoff:
Come along, Rick, you've been watching too much "Upstairs, Downstairs"
which is set in Edwardian days.

Rick:
> In the HP movies everybody wears the same thing (why do the girls
> wear neckties and who taught then to tie them?)

Geoff:
Because ties have often been part of school uniform for both sexes 
although not quite so common nowadays,

Rick:
> Tonk's "Wotcher, Harry?" threw me for the longest, which reads like a 
> warning to us (Wha'cher [self], Harry, round those dragons).  

Geoff:
It's a common Cockney greeting. It is suggested that it is a corruption
of "What cheer?".

I lived in London for 45 years and, although I am not a native Londoner 
and haven't got much of an accent, I still sometimes use the phrase 
myself in a casual meeting,

Rick:
> British English is a land mine for us, I'm afraid.

Geoff:
You want to try living this side of the pond and look your way.
:-)) 





From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 15 20:37:42 2009
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris22)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:37:42 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD73B55.8010909@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hb816m+a7o9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188055

Rich:

 I think the movies do a better job of showing the 
multinational absorption of the UK than the books because they are a 
visual medium, but that's mostly a failure of careful reading and 
knowledge of dialect:
'
sartoris2:

Tangentially, Rowling does capture the multi-ethnic, multi-racial character of modern day Britain. There are non-white characters such as Kingsley, Cho, the Patil sisters, and Dean. And if the different outsiders such as elves, goblins, and centaurs can be looked upon as substitutes for oppressed human minorities, then Rowling adds a political sensitivity to her writing. Of course, none of the non-white characters are really that essential. Cho has her moment but is subsequently erased from consciousness and Dean, like Seamus, hovers about like a forgotten memory. The Potter books aren't groundbreaking in their contemplation of race relations, but there's no reason why they should be. What I find most curious about the books is their treatment of young women. Although Hermione is an integral part of the trio, we never see her interacting with other girls. There are countless scenes of Ron and Harry interacting in their dorm room with the fellows, but none of Hermione interacting with her dorm mates. And Hermione, except for Ginny, has no female friends, and even Hermione and Ginny aren't BFFs because Hermione is always hanging out with Ron and Harry. True, Ginny and Luna get some attention in the books. But Ginny seems to come out of nowhere, suddenly appearing as this fierce hottie in the sixth book, then quickly forgotten in the seventh. Luna is one of Rowling's most interesting inventions and serves as a nice counterpoint to Hermione's pedantic certitude, but Luna is another outsider who never fully comes out from the cold. In the epilogue, didn't you want to find out what happened to her? For some odd reason, I hoped that she married Neville or Dean. Alas, we never discover if Luna is accepted in the wizard community. The Potter books are strangely male-centric and reinforce, to me, a notion of male supremacy. I've read comments from Emma Watson about the books exhibiting girl power, but, if anything, they occasionally exhibit Hermione power. To me, there's a current of traditional sexism that runs throughout the books, and I find that somewhat disheartening.









From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 21:15:00 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:15:00 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <15081425.1255638333376.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <15081425.1255638333376.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD790D4.6030306@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188056


> Geoff:
> You want to try living this side of the pond and look your way.
> :-)) 
>   
Well, between selling drugs, stealing cars, and shooting guns we do 
occasionally find time to work in a bit of television.  I'll explain all 
that if you'll explain the craziness around soccer. 
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Thu Oct 15 21:34:32 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:34:32 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Top Ten Hermione's "guilt"
In-Reply-To: <4AD7107F.3080708@rescueddoggies.com>
References: <4AD7107F.3080708@rescueddoggies.com>
Message-ID: <700201d40910151434n35ee9128j8e73e8934c08e5a2@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188057

> Kemper earlier:
> "Canon gives very clear evidence of Hermione's lack of concern in
> attaining consent.
> It was an abusive act done out of selfishness. It was a perversion of love.
> It was not an act of love."

> Brian:
> With respect, that's doesn't make sense.
> Sending them away to be safe could be construed as an act of selfishness.
> Making it so they won't miss her if she dies?
> Just HOW is that selfish?

Kemper now:
If she forced them to move away it would be selfish.  I think her
parents would be willing to move without being coaxed.
Hermione's memory enchantment makes her parents forget her entirely
not just if she dies.
I can't imagine what it would be like to lose a child of any age, but
part of that great sorrow is due to the great love and joy of being
with that child whether it was days or decades.  It is selfish to take
that away.

> Brian:
> I'm not debating whether she is right or wrong to do it, IF she does it
> without consent, but it isn't selfish.

Kemper now:
Are you saying if Hermione violated her parents' human rights so that
her parents could possibly live then that's not selfishness?  If so, I
obviously disagree.  Hermione is thinking of herself, her feelings.
She is not considering her parents nor their feelings.

> Brian:
> And many of you are convicting her of doing it without consent on
> carefully selected character evidence only, much of that from when she
> was TWELVE years old, there isn't even circumstantial evidence against her.
> If I'm ever accused of a crime, I hope you lot aren't my jury!

Kemper:
Hermione was THIRTEEN in CS when she plotted the drugging of Crabbe
and Goyle.  She told Ron and Harry of her idea and they attempted to
question the idea.  When Hermione was SIXTEEN in OP, she learned her
lesson and withheld telling her closest friends her plan to curse the
Dumbledore's Army sign-up sheet.

You would want me on your jury. I'm sure the evidence for and against
you would be more than Hermione's.  I'm willing to change my mind.
Maybe JKR will present a story about Hermione.

Kemper



From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Oct 15 22:49:17 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:49:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hb816m+a7o9@eGroups.com>
References: <hb816m+a7o9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4AD7A6ED.1000606@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188058

sartoris22 wrote:
> sartoris2:
> married Neville or Dean. Alas, we never discover if Luna is accepted in the wizard community. The Potter books are strangely male-centric and reinforce, to me, a notion of male supremacy. I've read comments from Emma Watson about the books exhibiting girl power, but, if anything, they occasionally exhibit Hermione power. To me, there's a current of traditional sexism that runs throughout the books, and I find that somewhat disheartening.

Bart:
    From 
http://the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/7/30/j-k-rowling-web-chat-transcript:

 >Alicepie: What happend to luna, did she get married who to?
 >
 >J.K. Rowling: She ended up marrying (rather later than Harry & co) a 
fellow
 >naturalist and grandson of the great Newt Scamander (Rolf)!

    I personally had the theory that she became an Auror, capitalizing 
on the fact that absolutely nobody would take her seriously, so that she 
could go into a den of criminal wizards, declare openly that she was an 
Auror, and have everybody confessing their deeds to her, thinking it was 
a great joke.

    Bart



From d2dmiles at yahoo.de  Thu Oct 15 22:56:26 2009
From: d2dmiles at yahoo.de (Miles)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 00:56:26 +0200
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
References: <hb816m+a7o9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B9232A83AD4C456EB5F1F1B4C570169B@miles>

No: HPFGUIDX 188059

sartoris22 wrote:
> There are countless scenes of Ron and Harry interacting in
> their dorm room with the fellows, but none of Hermione interacting
> with her dorm mates. And Hermione, except for Ginny, has no female
> friends, and even Hermione and Ginny aren't BFFs because Hermione is
> always hanging out with Ron and Harry.

Miles:
While I do agree that the gender concepts JKR presents are a bit weird from 
time to time, this bit is easily explained. Almost all the narration is told 
from Harry's POV, and he obviously can't know about Hermione's activities 
with her roommates or friends. We get the information that Hermione is on 
good terms with some other girls, but don't see them interact so much - 
because Harry is not interested in it. Actually, Harry is not really 
interested in other people at all, with very few exceptions.

Miles, who thinks that there isn't much interaction of Harry with his 
roommates, and misses scenes like the one in the GoF film in the books 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Oct 15 23:08:05 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 23:08:05 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <700201d40910142249j2ff86aafu6ab989a30561c83a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hb8a0l+l5g0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188060


> 
> Kemper now:
> It would be out of character for Hermione to get permission from her
> parents.  She assumes she knows best.  She deliberately takes away the choice of people and other sentient beings.
<snip examples>

Pippin:
I agree in the past she might have done something like that, and still might when it comes to people she doesn't know or trust. Harry, after all, has his reasons for not trusting her with the Elder Wand. 

But Hermione trusts her parents, or she wouldn't have told them so much about Harry in the first place. It isn't about her doubting their loyalty. And after PoA, she seems to restrain herself when she's dealing with people she values. She doesn't try to hex Sirius into freeing Kreacher or zap Harry to keep him from going to the MoM, even though she thinks they're terrible wrong.

You're assuming that the Grangers would be able to maintain changed identities without magical help and woud have preferred to do so. But what if they're no better than Hermione when it comes to lying convincingly under stress? She's  not much of an actress...why should her parents be any better?

Can they love and hope and pray for their daughter and not give themselves away? The DE's don't have to take Hermione hostage -- they just need to convince the Grangers they have and it will be the MOM all over again. They could use the Muggle media for that without even finding out where the Grangers have gone.

Actually, I think it's a bit of wizard chauvinism to assume it was all Hermione's idea. Why wouldn't the Grangers discuss their safety with their daughter?  They're not supposed to be stupid -- they may not be able to understand much of what Hermione tells them, but  attacks on Muggles have been going on since the end of OOP. The Grangers would guess, unlike the Dursleys, that the natural disasters and accidents that have been in the news aren't natural or accidental. They saw the way Lucius Malfoy looked at them in Diagon Alley. I don't think they'd be eager to meet up with him again. 

It seems to me if Hermione is capable of putting together false identities that won't arouse suspicion, she's equally capable of making sure that the Grangers will be able to re-assume their old ones without too much trouble. But surely their daughter's life is more important to them than their house or their careers.

Pippin





From carylcb at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 15 23:21:54 2009
From: carylcb at hotmail.com (Augusta)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 23:21:54 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb8aqi+gdtp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188061

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone
> 
> Chapter Seven: The Sorting Hat
 
Great discussion on this chapter, but I have another question:

If Hermione had memorized "Hogwarts: A History" before she got to school, why didn't she know how the Sorting was done? Surely the definitive reference book on the school would have covered the Sorting Ceremony, wouldn't it?




From keywestdaze at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 16 00:37:34 2009
From: keywestdaze at yahoo.com (Christy)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb6vhf+4bkv@eGroups.com>
References: <hb6vhf+4bkv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <342604.62849.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188062

<snip>
<Ceridwen:
<... I can't see any parent agreeing to forget their child ...
<big snip>


Christy:
One could argue that by "forgetting"  their daughter and changing their identifies, they are, in fact, protecting her as much as themselves. At least, that is the argument I would have used on my own Mom if I were in Hermione's shoes.

Christy, playing devil's advocate on the consent issue and
acknowledging that someone might have made this same point and I missed it



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 11:19:29 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:19:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <7566193.1255639259111.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <7566193.1255639259111.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD856C1.3020409@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188063

sartoris22 wrote:
> Rich:
>
>  I think the movies do a better job of showing the 
> multinational absorption of the UK than the books because they are a 
> visual medium, but that's mostly a failure of careful reading and 
> knowledge of dialect:
> '
> sartoris2:
> What I find most curious about the books is their treatment of young women. Although Hermione is an integral part of the trio, we never see her interacting with other girls. There are countless scenes of Ron and Harry interacting in their dorm room with the fellows, but none of Hermione interacting with her dorm mates. 
rick:

A little geeky here, but JKR switches back and forth between Harry's 1st 
person narrative and a wonky kind of 3rd person limited-omniscience 
POV--like watching a movie shot by a tipsy elf with a camcorder perched 
on Harry's shoulder--so we seldom know much more than what Harry can do, 
see, think, or feel or, more accurately sometimes, what Harry THINKS he 
does, sees, thinks or feels.   So there is no real reason to muddy the 
narrative with Hg's routine dorm room social life. 

Besides, while it's subtle, JKR does hint at Hg's life out of the frame 
by having her well-connected about what's going on with the other girls 
in school.  She knows about Cho's woes, all about Luna, and in OOP 
demonstrates by her looks and tiny actions that she knows Ginny has set 
her sights on Harry.  In fact, most of the boy-girl relationship 
information in all 7 books comes from Hg. 

It is significant that Harry was almost Harriette, as JKR says in many 
interviews.  In some ways Harriette would have been the too obvious 
choice for JKR.  In the end, any book that gets tens of thousands, maybe 
millions of boys excited about reading has to be a good thing.  That's a 
tough demographic nut to crack and at more than twice the page count of 
a typical juvenile book, a tough sell as it was. 
> And Hermione, except for Ginny, has no female friends, and even Hermione and Ginny aren't BFFs because Hermione is always hanging out with Ron and Harry. True, Ginny and Luna get some attention in the books. But Ginny seems to come out of nowhere, suddenly appearing as this fierce hottie in the sixth book, then quickly forgotten in the seventh. 
But that's the way it often happens, some little girl suddenly blossoms 
into womanhood and full hottiehood overnight.  And while Ginny may not 
play much part in the narrative track in DH, she's never far from 
Harry's mind throughout the first half of the book and is in there 
pitching spells like a lodge brother at the end of the book, even though 
she's underage and everybody tried to keep her sequestered in the ROR.

In many ways if the series were to continue, I'd very much like to see 
it retold from Ginny's POV.  I find her intriguing.  She grew up tomboy 
with all those brothers, but also protected.  She knows her mind and 
she's confident in her abilities.  For some reason I always equate Ginny 
with another of my favorite juvenile characters Scout in To Kill a 
Mockingbird.  Scout was clearly a literary precursor to the girl 
empowerment movement
> Luna is one of Rowling's most interesting inventions and serves as a nice counterpoint to Hermione's pedantic certitude, but Luna is another outsider who never fully comes out from the cold. 
But if there were ever a place for weirdos and outsiders, where better 
than the Wizarding World?  Actually, HP and the MoM Drones were more of 
a social anomaly than Luna.  I think it's brilliant that JKR portrays 
most of the WW as wierdos and eccentrics we'd see--and avoid--on the 
street in Muggleville, taking them for panhandlers, bums, and the 
insane.  They all dressed in Muggleville like they'd raided a thrift 
store drop-off box and had to settle for what they found. 
> In the epilogue, didn't you want to find out what happened to her? For some odd reason, I hoped that she married Neville or Dean. Alas, we never discover if Luna is accepted in the wizard community. 
You and a lot of us thought Neville and Luna were a match.  It's not in 
the epilogue but JKR does say in interviews or chats that she doesn't 
think the Longbottom-Lovegood match would have suited Neville because 
Luna was a bit too loonie for him.  She marries a naturalist, we're 
told, somehow related to the author of Fantastic Beasts and Where to 
Find Them. I, too, which she'd be introduced earlier and had a bigger 
role. 

> The Potter books are strangely male-centric and reinforce, to me, a notion of male supremacy. I've read comments from Emma Watson about the books exhibiting girl power, but, if anything, they occasionally exhibit Hermione power. To me, there's a current of traditional sexism that runs throughout the books, and I find that somewhat disheartening.
>   

I'm not a woman but I am a radical feminist (I think men should turn 
everything over to women so we can go fishin') and I think women come 
off quite well in the books--except for Fleur in GOF, but JKR seldom 
misses a chance to ding the French--sharing equally in positions of 
power and evil as well as home and hearth. 

I just don't see the traditional sexism in the books. I do see 
differentiation, but JKR's got to tell a story and it's the differences 
that propel the characters.  It's Hg who is smarter and better at almost 
everything off of a broom and more quick witted than either HP or RW.  
Her skills and daring shine in book 7, where she is the one to save the 
trio's collective bacon.  Hg is the one quietly packing that little 
purse and preparing for any eventuality at the Burrow.  She is 100% 
ready to go as soon as the DEs attack the wedding, looses the DE as they 
flee from the MoM, does all the healing, provides wise relationship 
counselling, and is the one throwing up protective charms and spells 
nearly as soon as they hit the ground on that 100 page camping trip.  
She quick wittedly tarps RW at the Lovegoods so that the DEs see HP 
before she apparates them out. 

She's clearly more than a mere academic, she thinks ahead and applies 
her knowledge.  If that's not girl power, I guess I just don't get it. 

Having said that, I've often wondered of JKR ever felt a twinge of 
feminist guilt about how Fleur came off in GOF; she failed two out of 
three tests against men and was "rescued" both times.

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 11:26:48 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:26:48 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <12245160.1255638331999.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <12245160.1255638331999.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD85878.4090901@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188064


> zanooda:
>
> Dean is not mentioned at all in the British edition
>   
I've often thought about getting hold of the UK edition and reading it 
side-by-side with the US version.  Maybe a retirement project. 

It's interesting to watch the scholarship spring up around the series, 
and how quickly.  It took over 100 years for scholars and enthusiasts to 
produce the complete annotated Sherlock Holmes work (my hardback is 12" 
X 14" and nearly 4 inches thick in very tiny type, 63 short stories and 
4 novels). 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 11:50:10 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:50:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <16949413.1255649187791.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <16949413.1255649187791.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD85DF2.7060808@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188065


> Great discussion on this chapter, but I have another question:
>
> If Hermione had memorized "Hogwarts: A History" before she got to school, why didn't she know how the Sorting was done? Surely the definitive reference book on the school would have covered the Sorting Ceremony, wouldn't it?
>   
You'd think.  OTOH, perhaps it was the kind of humdrum procedural 
activity that was dropped in the editing.  After all, they've got a lot 
of history to cover. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Oct 16 14:53:28 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:53:28 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb709m+itcr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hba1d8+on71@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188066


> 
> Ceridwen:
> Only if I intend never to regain my memory and come back to my ruined dental practice and the house that went back to the mortgage company because I thought I was someone else for a year and didn't make the payments.  By doing this, Hermione effectively ruined her parents' lives and livelihoods.  They probably lost patients, their practice, their home and everything they had collected through their lives.  Families have been torn apart for less.
> 

Pippin:
Funny, nobody doubts that Lily was willing to give up her life to save her child, and yet you think the Grangers wouldn't consider  putting their lives on hold and their memories in temporary storage to keep those memories from being used against their daughter? 

Imagine that your child is in danger -- is there  something that was yours to give that you wouldn't give to save her? 

If Hermione can give the Grangers new identities, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to restore their old ones. Especially given that a lot of people who mysteriously disappeared when their wizard neighbors took them into hiding will be coming back. I suppose the Ministry was quite busy for a while charming people to think their neighbors had gone on Sabbatical to Peru. Okay, that would be interfering with people's minds. But ordinary lies do that too.

Putting people in an Order safe house is evidently easier said than done.  In the first place,  Hermione couldn't tell the Order she was going on a  mission, especially since it seemed like their might be a spy. In the second place, there must be a limit to the number of safe houses the Order could set up, or they could have just set them up for everyone. 

I'd imagine that the Secret Keeper spell takes years and years to learn, like the Animagus transformation, and  several months at least to execute. 


Pippin




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 16:07:28 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:07:28 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hba1d8+on71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hba5o0+g9pg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188067


> Pippin:
> Funny, nobody doubts that Lily was willing to give up her life to save her child, and yet you think the Grangers wouldn't consider  putting their lives on hold and their memories in temporary storage to keep those memories from being used against their daughter? 

Kemper now:
According to Barty Crouch while the effects of the veritaserum, his dad put a powerful memory charm on Bertha Jorkins.  But no matter how powerful, Bertha broke and gave the information she forgot she had.


Kemper




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 16 19:44:18 2009
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris22)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:44:18 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD856C1.3020409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbaiei+t1n2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188068

RICH:

just don't see the traditional sexism in the books. I do see 
differentiation, but JKR's got to tell a story and it's the differences 
that propel the characters. It's Hg who is smarter and better at almost 
everything off of a broom and more quick witted than either HP or RW. 
Her skills and daring shine in book 7, where she is the one to save the trio's collective bacon. 

Sartoris22:

As I say in my earlier post, the books exhibit Hermione power, particularly in DH. But I don't think the books, overall, exhibit girl power. Men, to me, if you'll pardon the metaphor, wield the big wands in the novels. The protagonist and anagonist are men, and only Hermione, I think, shows traditional power. Don't you find it interesting that Fleur is chosen to compete in the Twiwizard Tournament? Is Fleur the most capable woman from two schools? Is Fleur the best women have to offer? Of the four contestants, Fleur is clearly the weakest. What statement does that make about women and power in the wizard world? True, women hold some power in the ministry, but the ony female ministry official we really get to know is Umbridge, a mean, petty, vicious, calculating, prejudiced person. And so many women seem to define themselves through relationships with men--Fleur, Tonks, Bellatrix, Lavender, and even Ginny, in a way. You make the point that Rowling was able to write a series that captured the interest and imagination of boys, an assessment that is clearly true. But do the books accomplish this by supporting a male notion of the world? If so, then that is somewhat dishearteing  to me.


>





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Oct 16 19:58:40 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:58:40 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hba5o0+g9pg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbaj9g+rqtm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188069


> 
> > Pippin:
> > Funny, nobody doubts that Lily was willing to give up her life to save her child, and yet you think the Grangers wouldn't consider  putting their lives on hold and their memories in temporary storage to keep those memories from being used against their daughter? 
> 
> Kemper now:
> According to Barty Crouch while the effects of the veritaserum, his dad put a powerful memory charm on Bertha Jorkins.  But no matter how powerful, Bertha broke and gave the information she forgot she had.
> 

Pippin:
True. A memory charm won't protect the Grangers from an interrogation by LV, and if they should stumble into his clutches the way poor Bertha did, Hermione's plan would fail. But she knows that. The memory charm protects the Grangers, and therefore Hermione herself, by keeping   the DE's from using any information about the Grangers which they already have to locate them or lure them out of hiding.

Pippin




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 16 20:06:37 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:06:37 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD856C1.3020409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbajod+7cp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188070

Rick:
> A little geeky here, but JKR switches back and forth between Harry's 1st 
> person narrative and a wonky kind of 3rd person limited-omniscience 
> POV--like watching a movie shot by a tipsy elf with a camcorder perched 
> on Harry's shoulder--so we seldom know much more than what Harry can do, 
> see, think, or feel or, more accurately sometimes, what Harry THINKS he 
> does, sees, thinks or feels.   So there is no real reason to muddy the 
> narrative with Hg's routine dorm room social life. 

Magpie:
She doesn't really flip back and forth and we're never in a first person narration. She uses third person limited narration, where we basically see things from Harry's perspective but we are not in his perspective. So we can know things he doesn't remember or notice, for instance.

Occasionally there are chapters that are out of his perspective, like the opening chapters of GoF, HBP and DH, but we're never in first person and never entirely in Harry's pov.

Rick:
> I just don't see the traditional sexism in the books. I do see 
> differentiation, but JKR's got to tell a story and it's the differences 
> that propel the characters. 

Magpie:
Really? I think there's tons of standard tradional male/female role behavior reinforced throughout the books. Hermione might be smarter than Ron or Harry, but where you say she "quietly backs a bag," she actually packs their bags, and seems to do most of the domestic work on their camping trip as well. (And most of the romance follows set patterns of male/female as well.) 

-m





From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 16 20:07:08 2009
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:07:08 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hba1d8+on71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbajpc+ffd8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188071

> > Ceridwen:
> > Only if I intend never to regain my memory and come back to my ruined dental practice and the house that went back to the mortgage company because I thought I was someone else for a year and didn't make the payments.  By doing this, Hermione effectively ruined her parents' lives and livelihoods.  They probably lost patients, their practice, their home and everything they had collected through their lives.  Families have been torn apart for less.

Pippin:
> Funny, nobody doubts that Lily was willing to give up her life to save her child, and yet you think the Grangers wouldn't consider  putting their lives on hold and their memories in temporary storage to keep those memories from being used against their daughter? 

Ceridwen:
Right.  Giving up one's life in the heat of an emergency - and Voldemort on the stairs is an emergency - is different than sitting calmly in a kitchen or on the living room sofa and deciding that, yes, I'll let you remove my memories of you.  I would never suggest the Grangers wouldn't throw themselves in front of any spell they saw cast at Hermione even if it meant death or mind-wiping or the fate of the Longbottoms.  I am suggesting that if I was Mrs Granger, I wouldn't want anyone, my daughter included, to wipe my memory of my child.

I'm also doubting Hermione's ability to perform this spell given that she admitted to not knowing memory spells a few days later.  Though the memory wiping spell we saw in OotP works quickly and secretively, that doesn't mean that it is simple to perform for a first-timer.  It looks incredibly easy to go en pointe but it takes years of practice to do it.

Pippin:
> Imagine that your child is in danger -- is there  something that was yours to give that you wouldn't give to save her? 

Ceridwen:
Convince me that my daughter would be in danger if I did not give this thing.  We're not talking clothes or a car, we're talking a lifetime of memories.  I wouldn't want my child taken from me, that includes the memories I have of this child.

Pippin:
> If Hermione can give the Grangers new identities, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to restore their old ones. 

Ceridwen:
I'm not so sure that Hermione is capable of doing both.  She may be the "smartest witch in her generation" but she doesn't know it all.  The smartest kid coming out of high school at age 18 still doesn't know as much as an adult who has been specifically trained past the secondary level in a given application.  How many people do you know who can take something apart but can't put it back together ("where did these two screws come from?")

Pippin:
> Especially given that a lot of people who mysteriously disappeared when their wizard neighbors took them into hiding will be coming back. I suppose the Ministry was quite busy for a while charming people to think their neighbors had gone on Sabbatical to Peru. Okay, that would be interfering with people's minds. But ordinary lies do that too.

Ceridwen:
And we don't like ordinary lies under most circumstances.  Hermione isn't the Ministry, she isn't a trained professional mind-wiper.  She admits to knowing nothing about memory spells after having performed this spell on her parents.

Pippin:
> Putting people in an Order safe house is evidently easier said than done.  In the first place,  Hermione couldn't tell the Order she was going on a  mission, especially since it seemed like their might be a spy. In the second place, there must be a limit to the number of safe houses the Order could set up, or they could have just set them up for everyone.

Ceridwen:
Hermione wouldn't have to tell them she was going.  Given her involvement with everything else Harry has done, she would have to tell them that she wasn't going.  More to the point, she would have to tell the Death Eaters that she wouldn't be involved with any of Harry's business this year, unlike other years.  The three key people in all of Harry's adventures have been Harry, Hermione and Ron.  The Weasleys are already fighting and so placing themselves at risk, they've already done everything they could to protect their property.  The Dursleys and the Grangers are the only two families left to protect.  Why protect the Dursleys and not the Grangers?  There is no other family in "everyone" - that only includes the Dursleys and the Grangers.

Pippin:
> I'd imagine that the Secret Keeper spell takes years and years to learn, like the Animagus transformation, and  several months at least to execute. 

Ceridwen:
It doesn't seem to take months to execute.  The Potters apparently managed it without months of preparation and casting, Bill and Fleur apparently managed it in a very short space of time.  If it is so difficult a spell, then move the Dursleys and the Grangers into a duplex house and protect the entire property with one spell.

But that doesn't address the question of Hermione's place on the evil list.  Kemper gave several instances from canon that convince some of us that Hermione probably didn't discuss this with her parents before subjecting them to a very personal violation.  If my child did that to me, I would be hurt and angry and I could never, not would never but could never, never be able to trust that child again.

Ceridwen.




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 21:07:23 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 17:07:23 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <33500699.1255723620698.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <33500699.1255723620698.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD8E08B.6070104@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188072

Sartoris22:
> As I say in my earlier post, the books exhibit Hermione power, particularly in DH. But I don't think the books, overall, exhibit girl power. Men, to me, if you'll pardon the metaphor, wield the big wands in the novels. The protagonist and anagonist are men, and only Hermione, I think, shows traditional power. 
Seems to me I recall McG was headmistress and organized the defense of 
Hogwarts on the fly.  Mrs. Weasley ran that family.  Bellatrix was quite 
powerful.  As you point out, there was Umbridge.  Madam Maxim ran her 
own academy.  I said in an earlier post that a writer has to decide 
between what is and what should be.  JKR chose.  The one thing I am sure 
kills a good story is to start off with a message, no matter how 
honorable. 

And frequently the writer is as surprised as anybody about what messages 
people take away from the work.  Melville never believed MD had a 
message at all.  He thought he was telling a whale of a tale, an 
adventure story.

Besides, there aren't very many time markers in the Muggleville timeline 
to place the stories even within a decade--The Ford Anglia is all I can 
think of off hand (produced 1959-1967). The other items: flush toilets, 
double-decker buses, TV, Radio all predate the Anglia.  What decade do 
you think the books are set in?

Would you feel differently if the stories were set in the 1960s?
> Don't you find it interesting that Fleur is chosen to compete in the Twiwizard Tournament? Is Fleur the most capable woman from two schools? Is Fleur the best women have to offer? Of the four contestants, Fleur is clearly the weakest. W
>   
Well, the Goblet chose a student from each school.  It's revealed that 
Moody/Crouch Jr. entered HP under a different school name.  As I 
commented, I was a bit shocked that JKR was so rough on the only woman 
in the tournament but, as I also pointed out, she took some pretty good 
swings at the French whenever she could. 

I think the only gender-related cringe I had in the entire JKR series 
was how Fleur was treated in GOF (we'll shrug off the teenage angst of 
all types). 
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 16 21:06:28 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:06:28 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbaj9g+rqtm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hban8k+ge04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188073



> Pippin:
> True. A memory charm won't protect the Grangers from an interrogation by LV, and if they should stumble into his clutches the way poor Bertha did, Hermione's plan would fail. But she knows that. The memory charm protects the Grangers, and therefore Hermione herself, by keeping   the DE's from using any information about the Grangers which they already have to locate them or lure them out of hiding.


Alla:

I really think that it depends, I really think that memory charm could increase their chances to stand interrogation as well if done by lesser wizard than Voldemort.

But what do you mean by memory charm placed on Grangers would stop DE from finding information about them?

Do you think that DE, if they try cannot go and find Grangers by their pictures for example? I mean many DE seem quite stupid to me, but say they were good detectives, I just do not get if you are saying that memory charm will work like something that would not let police dogs smell, or are you saying something else?

Thanks,

Alla





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 16 21:00:44 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:00:44 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbajpc+ffd8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbamts+i18r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188074

Pippin:
> Imagine that your child is in danger -- is there something that was yours to
give that you wouldn't give to save her?

Ceridwen:
Convince me that my daughter would be in danger if I did not give this thing. 
We're not talking clothes or a car, we're talking a lifetime of memories. I
wouldn't want my child taken from me, that includes the memories I have of this
child. <SNIP>


Alla:

The idea that without such memory charm you are much more likely to break under torture and give out to Death Eaters everything you know about your child's whereabouts is what would have convinced me to agree to it.  See, Kemper called Hermione selfish for doing it upthread, I would have called Hermione's parents pretty selfish if they would not have agreed. It is about their daughter's life too, right? 




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 16 21:37:57 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:37:57 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbap3l+rvud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188075


Discussion Questions:

1. How do you think Harry's first impressions of Hogwarts differed from those of the other first year students? It seemed like nobody knew what to expect for the sorting, but do you think those who had grown up knowing about Hogwarts were surprised by other things?

Janelle: I think that Harry's first impression would be similar to those of any muggle-born children- not having known anything about Hogwarts (including its very existence) until receiving his letter.  Other kids would probably know something about the school, the houses, the great hall- from hearing their parents talk about it.  That being said, just because they might know something about the school doesn't mean that they've been there.  Chances are all the new students were having similar experiences of fear and awe!

 
2. Who is your favorite of the ghosts introduced in this chapter, and why?

Janelle: I don't remember if this goes as far back as the first sighting, but I was always interested in the Bloody Baron and wanted to know more about him.
 
3. Is there any real-life place you thought of when you first read about the Great Hall?

Janelle: Nope.
 
4. If you were being sorted, would you have a discussion with the hat like Harry, or would you go with wherever it wanted to put you?

Janelle: I think it would depend on whether or not I knew anything about the houses going in.  I would have a reaction similar to Harry's "not slytherin" if I had heard the things that he heard before being sorted.  If I had gone in without any info though I would have just let the hat lead.

5. Do you think any of the Weasleys wished they were in a house other than Gryffindor?

Janelle: This is an interesting question.  I remember Ron being worried that he wouldn't be in Gryffindor *because* all of his family was in that house.  If that hadn't been the case I wonder which house he might have wanted to belong to.  Probably Gryffindor, but who knows?  I can imagine Ginny possibly being interested in other houses, just so she could get away from all those brothers- who seem to have teased her a lot, but at the same time, she still wanted to be like them and so would want to be in their house.  Fred and George probably would have gotten a kick out of being in Slytherin.

6. Do you think each house is the same size? Do you think any have gotten bigger or smaller over time?

Janelle: Ah, the ever-present school-population question.  Despite evidence to the contrary- I like to go with the basic idea of there being approximately 10 students in each house each year.  Of course, there might be more or less certain years, but I think the overall average would be ten.  I really do wish we knew something more about the (possible) other two girls in Gryffindor in Harry's year.

7. What do you think happened to Sally-Anne Perks?

Janelle: Do we know what house she was sorted into?  Perhaps she was the fourth Gryffindor girl but was pulled out for one reason or another: poor performance, family issues, personal issues, health, etc., leaving the year with only three girls.

8. Dean Thomas is specifically described as black in his description, but there is not a mention of race for the other students. Do you think there is racial/ethnic diversity at Hogwarts, or is Dean the only non-white student?

Janelle: There has already been a lot of discussion on this question so I'll keep it simple:  As has been pointed out, there are a few other students who are identified as having ethnicities other than white.  I think that in order to showcase her prejudices within the wizarding world, Jo had to leave out the prejudices of the muggle world.

9. If you had the banquet of your choice magically appear in front of you, what would it include?

Janelle: Tough question!  Probably some sort of chicken or steak or shrimp (or all three!), some good veggies and potatos, something with pineapple, and, of course, cheesecake and ice cream!

10. What did you think of Neville's account of his family's concern that he wasn't magical?

Janelle: I don't think it would have struck me as being too over the top at this point because so far, a lot of the story has been over the top and originally I wouldn't have known to expect anything different.  Looking at it now, within the wider context of the story- I think his uncle dangling him out the window is something akin to the abuse that Merope Gaunt and actual squibs, unfortunately, probably encounter all to regularly.

11. The first time you read the chapter, what did you think was happening when Harry had the pain in his scar while looking at Snape and Quirrell?

Janelle: I'm pretty sure that this led me down Jo's intended path of assuming that Snape was the bad guy.  I don't think that I questioned exactly what it was that caused the pain though.
 
12. What was your first impression of Dumbledore? Aside from the fact that we learn so much more about him as the series goes on, do you think that the "few words" and the way he introduces the school song are typical of him?

Janelle: I think that I liked him- precisely because of his "few words"- they were funny!  I think that those things were typical of him at the time.  I remember Jo explaining it in an interview once- she said something about how during those relatively peaceful times Dumbledore was much more whimsical and serene than he was able to be once he had Voldemort and all that entails on his mind.

13. Did you think there was any greater significance to Dumbledore's statement that music is "a magic beyond all we do here"?

Janelle: I'm sure that I didn't at the time- but I agree with what someone else said about this showcasing Dumbledore's belief that there are things (love, humanity, etc.) that outweigh magical ability.

14. How does the Gryffindor common room compare to the atmosphere at the school you attended?

Janelle: I went to US public schools and so can't compare those at all to Hogwarts.  What I can compare is my college dormitory.  We had a common room on our floor (called the "den") that had a bunch of tables for studying and some other more "comfortable" chairs.  It was a place for people to get together and hang out, sometimes play games or have meetings.  As far as seeing and interacting with people there I think it was very similar to the Gryffindor common room, but the actual room and furnishing were no where near as nice!

15. What did you think of Harry's dream the first time you read the chapter?
 
Janelle: Again- I think it led me to associate Draco, Snape and Voldemort to each other, leading me to believe Snape was the bad guy, which I'm sure is just what it was supposed to do!

Thanks for the questions!

Janelle




From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 16 21:55:19 2009
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (ceridwennight)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:55:19 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbamts+i18r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbaq47+8e27@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188076

Alla:
> 
> The idea that without such memory charm you are much more likely to break under torture and give out to Death Eaters everything you know about your child's whereabouts is what would have convinced me to agree to it.  See, Kemper called Hermione selfish for doing it upthread, I would have called Hermione's parents pretty selfish if they would not have agreed. It is about their daughter's life too, right?

Ceridwen:
After about 48 hours the information the Grangers had would be of no use.  That's under ordinary circumstances.  In this case, Hermione vanished from Bill and Fleur's wedding to -

Where?  They didn't even tell the Weasleys where they were.  The latest information the Grangers would have had was that Hermione was at the wedding, which the DEs would know was no longer the case.

The older an informant's information is, the more useless it is to the questioner.  The trio went silent for months after the wedding.  Any information the Grangers had would have been moot.  Hermione could not have told them about Grimmauld Place. If she mentioned Godrick's Hollow, that would have been common knowledge - in fact, without any outside information Voldemort planted Nagini near the old Potter home to watch for Harry.  Hermione barely lived at her parents' home, being in school for ten months of the year and then spending much of her summertime with the Weasleys.  The Grangers would have had little to no information of value.

Ceridwen.





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Fri Oct 16 22:14:57 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:14:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <3413279.1255724941414.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <3413279.1255724941414.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD8F061.6010302@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188077


> Magpie:
> Really? I think there's tons of standard tradional male/female role behavior reinforced throughout the books. Hermione might be smarter than Ron or Harry, but where you say she "quietly backs a bag," she actually packs their bags, and seems to do most of the domestic work on their camping trip as well. (And most of the romance follows set patterns of male/female as well.) 
>   
You're only partially correct about Hg doing the domestic work on the 
camping trip.  Harry and Ron policed up the site while Hg does the 
important magical work of removing the protective hexes and spells.

Where you see gender based divisions of labor, I mostly see 
Meyers-Briggs types.  I'd claim Hg as an INTP, she's a planner, a 
reader, not particularly social, an introvert, when put upon she bites 
her tongue and acts as a team player...unless her core values are 
breached then she becomes mule-ish, she's the ultimate scout: Always be 
prepared (but she'd never be a scout because INTPs aren't joiners), and 
fiercely loyal to people and causes.  Generally Hg's preparations are 
for naught, except in this series, but Hg's got a plan for every 
circumstance because she is light years ahead of any other characters in 
skills, knowledge, and planning. Her mind is a frothing scenario 
factory.  She not only see "what is" like most INTPs she knows what it 
means, what it symbolizes ("it means that the MoM is interfering at 
Hogwarts").  She suffers fools, but only for so long. 

BTW: JKR is reported to be an INTP as well.

If I were to cast Hg as a modern day TV character, she'd be Dr. 
Temperance Brennen in Bones or Dr. Kay Scarpetta in a Pat Cornwell 
series.  Same temperment. 

I discount your romance comment.  Girls just mature faster than boys, on 
the whole. 
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Oct 16 22:41:54 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:41:54 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD8E08B.6070104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbasri+s321@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188079

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:

Rick: (or at least I think it's Rick... somebody isn't attributing remarks where
the writer changes)
> Besides, there aren't very many time markers in the Muggleville timeline
> to place the stories even within a decade--The Ford Anglia is all I can
> think of off hand (produced 1959-1967). The other items: flush toilets,
> double-decker buses, TV, Radio all predate the Anglia.

Geoff:
There is more evidence. In "The Letters from no One" in "Philosopher's
Stone", Dudley gets a clip round the ear because he is trying to take his
computer.

Microcomputers really appeared on the market around 1978 and for
someone to have his or her own would be some years on. I can recall
my school in South London getting its first single computer in 1983
and that was too damned heavy to be carted around.

RIck:
> What decade do you think the books are set in?

Geoff:
Rowling has given clues for that. Nearly Headless Nick's 500th Death Day
was in Harry's second year when he was approaching 12. Since Nick's death
was in 1492, this took place in 1992, hence Harry was born in 1980.

So the action of the books takes place in the 1990s.
QED.




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 16 20:14:33 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:14:33 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hba1d8+on71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbak79+mmdb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188080

> Pippin:
> Funny, nobody doubts that Lily was willing to give up her life to save her child, and yet you think the Grangers wouldn't consider  putting their lives on hold and their memories in temporary storage to keep those memories from being used against their daughter? 
> 
> Imagine that your child is in danger -- is there  something that was yours to give that you wouldn't give to save her?

Magpie:
I very much doubt that Lily would agree to risk forgetting Harry forever, which we're told is what Hermione's parents are risking. Wizard parents aren't asked to do that.

But at least this suggests Hermione and her wizard friends' wishes are a priority.

Pippin: 
> 
> If Hermione can give the Grangers new identities, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to restore their old ones.

Magpie:
To give them back their memories would be a snap. That wouldn't track down every person they would have contact with and zap them too. I don't believe any wizards were taking in Muggle neighbors. Putting protective spells on them =/= taking them in. It just means putting some sort of ward on the house that the Muggles themselves are unaware of, so the Muggles go about their business as usual. (We're not talking Muggle Anne Franks, iow.)

-m




From jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com  Wed Oct 14 19:51:03 2009
From: jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com (jeanine5715)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:51:03 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hb5a37+uv5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188081

Megan:
If you were being sorted, would you have a discussion with the hat like Harry, or would you go with wherever it wanted to put you?

Jeanine5715:
I would go wherever it put me if I were a Muggle, on the basis that I would know nothing concete about any of them, so could not make a sensible decision. I feel fairly sure about this because that's exactly how it was when I was sorted into a house at my grammar school years ago.
If I were from a wizarding family then I think I would have requested a particular house if I had one in mind based on family knowledge.

Megan:
5. Do you think any of the Weasleys wished they were in a house other than Gryffindor?

Jeanine5715:
No because they would know from older Weasleys that Gryffindor pupils appear to be favoured by DD.

Megan:
If you had the banquet of your choice magically appear in front of you, what would it include?

Jeanine5715:
Red wine, salad and dark chocolate

Megan:
What did you think of Neville's account of his family's concern that he wasn't magical?

Jeanine5715:
I felt sorry for him that it seemed to overshadow any other family feelings towards him.

Megan:
The first time you read the chapter, what did you think was happening when Harry had the pain in his scar while looking at Snape and Quirrell?

Jeanine5715:
I thought it was coincidence, meant to mislead the reader; that if there were any outside influence cauasing the scar to react, it was coming from elsewhere.

Megan:
What was your first impression of Dumbledore? Aside from the fact that we learn so much more about him as the series goes on, do you think that the "few words" and the way he introduces the school song are typical of him.

Jeanine5715:
My first impression of him was that he was a bit of a buffoon. Or perhaps had a very high opinion of himself.

Megan:
How does the Gryffindor common room compare to the atmosphere at the school you attended?

Jeanine5715:
Much of Hogwarts was very similar to the school I attended - sorting into houses, uniform, rules strictly observed, great respect towards teaching staff. The common room engendered a house feeling,house members spent much of their free time together - this was different for me at school where we made friemds across houses, although there was still a strong house loyalty when competing for various cups and awards. When Neville stands up to Harry, this reflected my school experience of the feeling against another pupil who let the house down and cost the house points.








From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 17 04:33:47 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 04:33:47 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD8F061.6010302@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbbhfb+87gf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188082

Rick:
> Where you see gender based divisions of labor, I mostly see 
> Meyers-Briggs types.  I'd claim Hg as an INTP, she's a planner, a 
> reader, not particularly social, an introvert, when put upon she bites 
> her tongue and acts as a team player...unless her core values are 
> breached then she becomes mule-ish, she's the ultimate scout: Always be 
> prepared (but she'd never be a scout because INTPs aren't joiners), and 
> fiercely loyal to people and causes.  


Magpie:
She also just acts like the mother at times

Rick:

> I discount your romance comment.  Girls just mature faster than boys, on 
> the whole. 

Magpie:
Discount it how? I wasn't referring to girls maturing faster. There's a pretty clear pattern in the books of how girls and boys interact that goes far beyond girls maturing faster that boys. 

-m




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 17 04:37:16 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 04:37:16 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbasri+s321@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbbhls+ppbr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188083

> Rick: (or at least I think it's Rick... somebody isn't attributing remarks where
> the writer changes)
> > Besides, there aren't very many time markers in the Muggleville timeline
> > to place the stories even within a decade--The Ford Anglia is all I can
> > think of off hand (produced 1959-1967). The other items: flush toilets,
> > double-decker buses, TV, Radio all predate the Anglia.
> 
> Geoff:
> There is more evidence. In "The Letters from no One" in "Philosopher's
> Stone", Dudley gets a clip round the ear because he is trying to take his
> computer.

Magpie:
And Dudley also gets a computer game at one point, doesn't he? One that technically came out a few years after the story is taking place? And Harry's birthdate is 1980, isn't it? I can't remember if they ever say that specifically in the books. We know Grindelwald was defeated in 1945, and Lord Voldemort's life has some dates. 

-m




From sweenlit at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 06:45:32 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (moosiemlo)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 06:45:32 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD7A6ED.1000606@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hbbp6c+b50p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188084


The Potter books are strangely male-centric and reinforce, to
me, a notion of male supremacy.

Lynda:

I don't really see this. They are of course written about a male and his adventures in and out of school, his growing up, that is and are therefore going to center on him, a male. There are, however plenty of examples of women and women who are not only in traditionally female roles but women who run businesses on their own (apparently) Madame Rosmerta, women in highly dangerous occupations: Tonks, the women's quidditch team, women who choose not to marry for reasons of their own and make a life that is not traditional in that sense, and women who are extremely influential within their own spheres of influence, as in Madame Maxine, Professor Umbridge (let's face is she had a degree of influence at the ministry. . .and Professor McGonagall. A fairly even balance, really. I know that some will say that the books are biased and show women in only traditional roles, but I argue that this simply isn't true, at least no more true than is evidenced by society. Most women that I know, or hear of have families, jobs that are more or less traditional for women (although also for men). Teachers, nurses, service workers of some type. Many of them are highly qualified at the careers they have chosen, as I am and would be insulted to learn that there are some who think they are simply fulfilling a stereotype. Most of them (us) are happy with our life choices and our jobs and families and if we are working are simply right now happy to be employed. Perhaps JKR was attempting to show nothing more than a similarity in the world of her books.

Lynda




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 11:45:12 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 07:45:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <10816932.1255732936871.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <10816932.1255732936871.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD9AE48.1030306@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188085


> Geoff:
> There is more evidence. In "The Letters from no One" in "Philosopher's 
> Stone", Dudley gets a clip round the ear because he is trying to take his 
> computer.
>   

Insufferable know-it-all ;-> 

Actually, I thought of the computer later, too. 


-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 11:49:37 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 07:49:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <17385679.1255754110000.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <17385679.1255754110000.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AD9AF51.3050808@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188086


> Rick:
>   
>> I discount your romance comment.  Girls just mature faster than boys, on 
>> the whole. 
>>     
>
> Magpie:
> Discount it how? I wasn't referring to girls maturing faster. There's a pretty clear pattern in the books of how girls and boys interact that goes far beyond girls maturing faster that boys. 
>   
Well, you're going to have to spell it then.  Regarding sexism in the 
books, how else are girls and boys trying out those new hormones 
SUPPOSED to act in your world view? 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Oct 17 12:03:41 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 12:03:41 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD9AE48.1030306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbcbqt+s570@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188087

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:
 
> > Geoff:
> > There is more evidence. In "The Letters from no One" in "Philosopher's 
> > Stone", Dudley gets a clip round the ear because he is trying to take his 
> > computer.

Rick: 
> Insufferable know-it-all ;-> 
 
> Actually, I thought of the computer later, too. 
 
Geoff:
Well, I have to maintain my long-standing reputation as being 
good at quoting canon.
:-)

Though I have to admit that I couldn't recall the computer game 
to which Sister Magpie drew our attention.




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 17 14:01:38 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:01:38 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD9AF51.3050808@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbcio2+tui2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188088

 > Magpie:
> > Discount it how? I wasn't referring to girls maturing faster. There's a pretty clear pattern in the books of how girls and boys interact that goes far beyond girls maturing faster that boys. 

Rick:   
> Well, you're going to have to spell it then.  Regarding sexism in the 
> books, how else are girls and boys trying out those new hormones 
> SUPPOSED to act in your world view? 

Magpie:
I don't think they're *supposed to act* any one way. In the books there's a pretty common pattern of girls scheming, always a few steps ahead of the boys, using love potions or other forms of manipulations. Girls who are too obvious about crushing on boys are okay when they're pre-adolescent (so too young to know better), but women who are too direct in their sexual aggression fter that are grotesque or figures of ridicule (especially if they're not attractive). Basically, it's the men's job to pursue, but the women are probably already pursuing in their indirect way. Males are for the most part the confunded object of female romantic wiles. We do eventually get 3 more predatory males I can think of. Fenrir (a DE), Cormac (who doesn't know he's part of Hermione's romantic scheme) and Viktor, who started out seemingly shy but by DH seems to be scanning the wedding and complaining there aren't enough good looking girls. 

Plot-wise, male friendships and male relationships with each other change history and move the plot, while females have their most important relationships with men, with their friendships with each other presented in ways that rather hint of a relative shallowness. The giggling girls that are around Cho and Lily, for instance. The main female friendships we see is between Lavender and Parvati, girls who are usually being presented as silly compared to Hermione (but sometimes do converse with her on the subject of boys). What we see of Ginny and Hermione's friendship is largely based on their love lives. They are sisters in law before they're sisters in law, and in a scene that I read as signalling that Harry/Ginny was finally about to happen, Ginny insults Hermione nastily and personally in Harry's defense. Jealousy and a basic mistrust of each other also is more expected than with boys--who can also be jealous of romantic rivals but that often goes along with a more neutral admiration. 

-m




From sweenlit at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 16:27:16 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 09:27:16 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbcio2+tui2@eGroups.com>
References: <4AD9AF51.3050808@gmail.com> <hbcio2+tui2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0910170927j1b727740wad40a74007e18bec@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188089

Lynda:

Hermione and Ginny present a pretty good picture of "non-silly" female
friends, as do Ginny and Luna, and a little later on Hermione and Luna,
although their relationship was always more on the acquantance level. And
again, in a book written about a boy I expect a boy to be the main one
moving the plot along.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 17:23:57 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:23:57 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbcio2+tui2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbcujd+cnla@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188090

Magpie:
I don't think they're *supposed to act* any one way. In the books there's a
pretty common pattern of girls scheming, always a few steps ahead of the boys,
using love potions or other forms of manipulations. Girls who are too obvious
about crushing on boys are okay when they're pre-adolescent (so too young to
know better), but women who are too direct in their sexual aggression fter that
are grotesque or figures of ridicule (especially if they're not attractive).

Alla:

Who are the women who are too direct in their sexual aggression in the books and accordingly being figures of ridicule? I certainly remember teenage girls being figures of ridicule for that, but women?

So sure if we are talking about teenage girls, like Romilda Wane for example, I completely agree that she is being ridiculed. Basically author is saying that girls whose only goal in mind is to catch a boy are sort of shallow in her view unless they really love him, right? Well, I am going to say that yeah, if teenage girl OR boy has the only thing on their mind to catch the boy or girl with love potion, I agree that I would call such person pretty shallow unless it is a true love. I do not believe in true love in school, but I have heard RL stories, so I have to say that books insistense on it must be based on some sort of reality. Or am I completely misreading you? See I not well read in feminism  and may not  fully understand what is it exactly that feminism considers antifeminist portrayal of women in literature and accordingly why these books are antifeminist. Or maybe I am misreading you completely and you are not arguing that these books are antifeminist?

I am trying hard to find where in the books she portrays that thinking about boys is bad per se, if you have other things going on in your life. Certainly Ginny and Hermione's crushes are not being portrayed as something to be ashamed of, no?


Magpie:
Basically, it's the men's job to pursue, but the women are probably already
pursuing in their indirect way. Males are for the most part the confounded object
of female romantic wiles.

Alla:

Okay now I am even more confused, so you are saying it is a bad thing for women to do? Or is it demeaning for them to be portrayed that way? Oh, wait you are saying that women are portrayed as being better in these games than men and this is bad or antifeminist?

Magpie:
We do eventually get 3 more predatory males I can
think of. Fenrir (a DE), Cormac (who doesn't know he's part of Hermione's
romantic scheme) and Viktor, who started out seemingly shy but by DH seems to be
scanning the wedding and complaining there aren't enough good looking girls.

Alla:

But but Fenrir is a monster and therefore a predator. He is not portrayed as being good at romantic games, he is just a monster. I do not understand  your argument at all. Victor is portrayed as being a nice guy anytime he appears, right? So he became more alfa-male (to use romance literature terminology) is it bad or demeaning? For whom? For men or for women? Cormac is, I guess to me he is a plot device to advance Hermione and Ron's love story, I would not call him bad either.

Magpie:
Plot-wise, male friendships and male relationships with each other change
history and move the plot, while females have their most important relationships
with men, with their friendships with each other presented in ways that rather
hint of a relative shallowness. <SNIP>

Alla:

I agree with Linda on this, in a book about a boy I fully expect a male friendships to take front and center stage. But even in these books we have Hermione and to me her relationships are not shallow.

JMO,

Alla





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 17:38:21 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 13:38:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <9690924.1255788502817.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <9690924.1255788502817.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADA010D.3090502@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188091


> Magpie:
> I don't think they're *supposed to act* any one way. In the books there's a pretty common pattern of girls scheming, always a few steps ahead of the boys, using love potions or other forms of manipulations. 
Well, I suppose, if you say so.  But the love potent moved the Slughorn 
story line forward, and narrative action is what makes the story. 

It probably would have been a lot different book if the boys had been 
dropping Elfen Spanish Fly into the Girl's pumpkin juice, Hg a love 
slave in HP & Ron's tent. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 17:46:06 2009
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris22)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:46:06 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbbp6c+b50p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbcvsu+rg8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188092

Lynda:

I don't really see this. They are of course written about a male and his adventures in and out of school, his growing up, that is and are therefore going to center on him, a male. There are, however plenty of examples of women and women who are not only in traditionally female roles but women who run businesses on their own (apparently) Madame Rosmerta, women in highly dangerous occupations: Tonks, the women's quidditch team, women who choose not to marry for reasons of their own and make a life that is not traditional in that sense, and women who are extremely influential within their own spheres of influence, as in Madame Maxine, Professor Umbridge (let's face is she had a degree of influence at the ministry. . .and Professor McGonagall

sartoris 22:

I concede that women are allowed to be in "dangerous occupations." However, how many of these women do we meet? Consider Tonks. She is an auror and a member of the Order of the Phoenix. But besides Molly,
Tonks is the only female Order member that we get to know. The Order, to me, seems predominantly male, as do the Deatheaters. Thus, being in the "army" or being a "soldier" is a decidedly male affair. You make a good point that women (and men) don't have to marry or even partner, which is incredibly progressive (although the Yule Ball does put pressure on the students to mate). But if you think about it, isn't it more socially acceptable in our world for a woman to be alone than a man? I know we have more derogatory languge for an unpartnered woman than an unpartnered man, but think about how society really works. And I am not talking about a man who simply isn't married or doesn't have a steady girlfriend, I am talking about a man who has no sexual or romantic relationships with women, like Slughorn and Snape. In our world, men like that are less socially acceptable than their female counterparts. Thus, I think the uninvolved option in the books seems more liberating to men, who like Slughorn, can enjoy their crystallized pineapple, oak-matured mead, and smoking jackets alone and unencumbered. Overall, men seem to have the most power, to control traditionally male institutions such as armed forces and government. And the novels are, essentially, about a boy.












From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 18:29:14 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:29:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbd2dq+it7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188093



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megan Real" <poohmeg20 at ...> wrote:
<SNIP summary>

Discussion Questions:

1. How do you think Harry's first impressions of Hogwarts differed from those of
the other first year students? It seemed like nobody knew what to expect for the
sorting, but do you think those who had grown up knowing about Hogwarts were
surprised by other things?

Alla:

Oh as Janelle (?) I believe said that his expressions will be probably similar to other Muggleborn kids who knew nothing about magic and WW, however I think Harry's impressions would be ten times more positive and awe striking simply by what he had to live through with Dursleys. Just imagine, loveless existence for ten years and here the whole world which is supposedly can make anything come true. No wonder that I think that the line in the medium that must not be named is so very appropriate, when Harry says "I love magic", I so totally think it is perfectly in character for him.

I believe that he fell in love with this world right away.


2. Who is your favorite of the ghosts introduced in this chapter, and why?

Alla:

Actually if I remember my first impression correctly, none of them. I think I found the ghosts a bit creepy right from the bat.  I think it is just my preconceived thoughts after reading a lot of fantasy genre ? I do not like spirits wandering around, be it unfinished business or anywhere else.


4. If you were being sorted, would you have a discussion with the hat like
Harry, or would you go with wherever it wanted to put you?

Alla:

Hm, I think discussion, IF Hat started talking first and informed me that she is putting me somewhere I do not want to go. If Hat was silent though, I think I would have been too scared to started talking first.

However, I am of the opinion that Hat never intended to have any discussion with Harry, I think Hat was testing him and intended for him to be in Gryffindor.


5. Do you think any of the Weasleys wished they were in a house other than
Gryffindor?

Alla:

No way IMO, not even Percy. I think family means a lot for all of them and their whole family was and is among the Gryffindors.

9. If you had the banquet of your choice magically appear in front of you, what
would it include?

Alla:

I am not very adventurous,  but I would not go with  my usual chicken choice for meats hehe. I would love rabbit cooked in the sour cream, any white fish.  Salad with fresh tomato and cucumbers. 

Oooooo, yes cottage cheese dish please and dark chocolate desserts. Yeah, I know, weird choices.

10. What did you think of Neville's account of his family's concern that he
wasn't magical?

Alla:

That I remember very well actually, I thought they were idiots.


12. What was your first impression of Dumbledore? Aside from the fact that we
learn so much more about him as the series goes on, do you think that the "few
words" and the way he introduces the school song are typical of him?

Alla:

As evidenced by my e-mail, my first impression of Dumbledore was very positive, lol. I thought the words were funny and eccentric. Do I think that those words are typical of him now? Only if typical of him means that he is typically endures to NOT show to people who he truly is.

I think it is a show to masquerade as eccentric. I think it hides the calculating, manipulative mind and last thing he is a loveable eccentric, in my view of course.


Thank you so much for interesting questions Meegan.








From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 17 18:47:13 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:47:13 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0910170927j1b727740wad40a74007e18bec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbd3fh+7c06@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188094

> Lynda:
> 
> Hermione and Ginny present a pretty good picture of "non-silly" female
> friends, as do Ginny and Luna, and a little later on Hermione and Luna,
> although their relationship was always more on the acquantance level. And
> again, in a book written about a boy I expect a boy to be the main one
> moving the plot along.

Magpie:
They're definitely not silly, but what we see of their friendship is mostly based around their connections to Harry and Ron. Hermione's better friends with Ron than Ginny, and she knows Ginny through Ron. Their relationship is very much what it's heading for: sisters in law. Hermione and Luna are never that close. We know Luna likes Ginny and vice versa, but we don't see much of their relationship. (They're linked the most in DH when we hear they're acting with Neville, who's the one leading the resistance.) The books have a boy as a main character but they have a huge supporting cast with tons of backstories and various relationships pushing things. Harry, after all, isn't even a very active hero. He mostly learns things about other peoples' pasts that relate to him. 

-m





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 18:52:23 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:52:23 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <c66.6007fa6f.38080f57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <hbd3p7+k1mm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188095

Ceridwen wrote:
> 
> I would  be angry and disappointed and hurt. Especially hurt, to think that my kid  thought so little of me.
> 
Melissa wrote:
> But it wouldn't be because she thought so little of you.  It would  be because she thought the world of you.  
>  
> Hermione doesn't want her parents to end up dead like the Potters  or to be tortured into insanity like the Longbottoms.  As Pippen  pointed out they can't stay with the "biggest family of blood traitors" (to  paraphrase Bill) in the WW. Even Auntie Muriel wouldn't be an option.  
  
> Better to be in Australia 

Carol responds:

I don't think anyone objects to the Grangers being in Australia where they will certainly be safe. It's Hermione's modifying their memories so that they don't know they have a daughter or even who they are that bothers some posters. No one modified the Weasleys's memories. In fact, Mr. Weasley and Bill actually helped to transform the ghoul that represented the Spattergroited Ron. (Mrs. Weasley would just have to accept the fact that her youngest son and his friends, whom she also cared about, would not only be out of school but in terrible danger without her knowing where they were. And her stupid clock, with its hands perennially pointing to "mortal peril," would be no help unless Ron's hand actually fell off the clock.)

The Grangers knew that Hermione was independent. They were used to having her far from home in an unknown magical world. They would know that they couldn't stop her from going back to the WW even if she explained that it was becoming more dangerous; she was, after all, nearly eighteen, and even her Muggle parents would regard her as an adult once her birthday passed sometime in September. She would need to explain that as a friend of Harry Potter, whom she had surely mentioned to her parents, she would be in additional danger, but so would they, as her parents, now that Voldemort was targeting Muggles. She could then suggest that they move to Australia. She could even offer to modify their memories (an offer that I'm sure they would have refused) and promise to let them know as soon as she was safe. Alternatively, she could have asked the Order to protect them as they did the Dursleys. 

If she did it with their knowledge and consent, I have no objections to anything except the unnaturalness of agreeing to such an arrangement, assuming that they still had money, had the opportunity to sell their house, and still knew how to make a living as dentists in Australia. OTOH, if she did it without their consent assuming, as Ceridwen thinks, that they were just helpless Muggles who couldn't be told the truth or trusted to leave England on their own, and their house and possessions were left behind with no protection, it's just wrong.

After all, the Dursleys, who didn't even love Harry, were allowed a choice. They knew that Vernon couldn't work, that Dudley couldn't attend school, that they'd have to leave their house and possessions behind with no protection. They chose to do so, thanks to Dudley. Possibly the Grangers, never having encountered Dementors or suffered pain and humiliation at the hands of Wizards, might have been harder to persuade, but they loved and trusted their daughter whereas the Dursleys neither loved nor trusted Harry. They should have been given a choice, and, if I were Hermione, I would not have shut up until they agreed to leave England. (Australia is probably needlessly distant, but, oh, well.)

Then again, if they were happy and could find work in a new place, they were probably happier than the Dursleys, unable to work or go to school or use computers or watch TV and forced to live with a Witch and a Wizard, all the time knowing that their home and belongings probably would not be there when they returned. (No one put a protective charm on the house; Mad-eye didn't even bother to lock the door. He just left the house to the mercy of the DEs--or, though he didn't mention it, Muggle thieves and neglect. Or maybe, if it's not fully paid for, the mortgage will be foreclosed and the mortgage company will take it back, selling the Dursleys' furniture and belongings.

I wouldn't want to be in either the Grangers' or the Dursleys' position. "Your home and property or your life." Would I choose to save myself or take my chances? I don't suppose it matters, as long as it was my choice.

But I certainly wouldn't want my not-yet-eighteen-year-old daughter taking matters into her own hands, robbing me of my choice and my memory.

Carol, wondering how the MTMNBN will handle this situation since the Grangers have been cast (maybe we can talk about it on the movie list)




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 19:05:55 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:05:55 -0000
Subject: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <hb7c1j+81ad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbd4ij+fg2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188096

> Carol, noting that many other Flints and possible Flints have been discussed on this list and wondering what a search for "Flint" would yield given the inadequacy of the Yahoo search engine
>

Montavilla47:

I'm not sure, but I read the transcripts for the lawsuit against Steve 
Vander Ark (or rather, his publishing company), and I was tickled to see 
that "Flints" were discussed and have now entered the legal lexicon.





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 19:38:31 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:38:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <6934571.1255781164710.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <6934571.1255781164710.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADA1D37.4060208@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188097


> Geoff:
> Well, I have to maintain my long-standing reputation as being 
> good at quoting canon.
> :-)
>   
I suspect you're really Hg in disguise. 
> Though I have to admit that I couldn't recall the computer game 
> to which Sister Magpie drew our attention.
>   
In DH, it comes up between the departure of the Dursleys and the arrival 
of the OOP when HP is thinking back on the few times he'd ever been left 
in the house--channel surfing, playing games on Big D's computer.  Also 
when HP gets Big D's spare bedroom and Big D retreats to his room to 
play a computer game.  Also, I think, in the first book as part of the 
litany of presents D gets before the trip to the zoo.

Frankly, JKR is to commended for dropping so few time marks that her 
work could relevant to any modern era without feeling dated to the 
reader.  I was enjoying Pretty Woman the other night, until Richard Gere 
started using that shoebox sized cellphone.  I imagine my grandchildren 
and their kids will read it with equal sense that it was written for 
them in their time.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Oct 17 20:52:56 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:52:56 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbcio2+tui2@eGroups.com>
References: <hbcio2+tui2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4ADA2EA8.8050009@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188098

Magpie:
> I don't think they're *supposed to act* any one way. In the books there's a pretty common pattern of girls scheming, always a few steps ahead of the boys, using love potions or other forms of manipulations. 

Bart:
    One of the basic premises I use for determining sexism: If you 
reverse the genders, does it change anything? For various reasons, which 
are far too heavily connected to politics for me to bring up here, there 
still exists a double standard in both British and American societies, 
where when a male takes sexual advantage of a female, that is usually 
considered to be a crime, while if a female takes sexual advantage of a 
male, that is usually considered to be the male "getting lucky."

    Now, keeping these in mind, let's say that guys were trying to use 
"love" potions on Hermoine, and one of them actually got ingested by 
Ginny. Would that have been much different than Ron accidentally 
consuming a "love" potion meant for Harry? Would it have been as comicial?

    Bart




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 20:59:49 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:59:49 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4ADA2EA8.8050009@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hbdb85+jbqs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188099


> Bart:
>     One of the basic premises I use for determining sexism: If you 
> reverse the genders, does it change anything? For various reasons, which 
> are far too heavily connected to politics for me to bring up here, there 
> still exists a double standard in both British and American societies, 
> where when a male takes sexual advantage of a female, that is usually 
> considered to be a crime, while if a female takes sexual advantage of a 
> male, that is usually considered to be the male "getting lucky."
> 
>     Now, keeping these in mind, let's say that guys were trying to use 
> "love" potions on Hermoine, and one of them actually got ingested by 
> Ginny. Would that have been much different than Ron accidentally 
> consuming a "love" potion meant for Harry? Would it have been as comicial?


Alla:

Of course I would not have seen it as different and while I can see that Ron's acting is funny while under potion, I certainly do not see the **action of slipping the potion** as funny in the slightest. Sometimes we can laugh over something which is also criminal, ugly, etc, etc. Situation can evoke many responses at the same time IMO.

So, no, not different. To me Merope for example slipping Tom's Riddle a love potion is a rape and destroying of guy's life, period, end of story. No matter that Merope was a victim of abuse, etc, etc, to me it still changes nothing about that particular action.

And if Ginny would have digested the potion, I would have reacted same way about whoever did it to her as I react about Romilda Vane.

JMO,

Alla




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 21:49:24 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:49:24 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <700201d40910142249j2ff86aafu6ab989a30561c83a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbde54+qdf0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188100



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kemper <iam.kemper at ...> wrote:
>
> > Pippin:
> > Why do you suppose they wouldn't consent? The goal was not to protect their peace of mind, it was to save them from ending up like the Longbottoms, powerful wizards mind you, but no match for the Death Eaters who tortured them into insanity. It's not a question of treating them like ickle Muggles who can't protect themselves.
> 
> > Joey:
> > My POV too.
> > Hermione is a Muggle-born and has been taunted for that by the Malfoys multiple times. She is the one who has been encouraging house-elves to fight for their rights. So, I don't think she would treat her own parents or anybody for that matter in a patronizing / condescending fashion when it comes to their capabilities / rights.
> 
> Kemper now:
> It would be out of character for Hermione to get permission from her
> parents.  She assumes she knows best.  She deliberately takes away the
> choice of people and other sentient beings.


Montavilla47:

While I think Pippin and Joey make good arguments, I have to 
agree with Kemper.  It is definitely in character for Hermione to
act for others without bothering to consult them.

It's also a bit illogical for her to memory charm her parents
unless it was *without* consent.  If they were willing to move to
Australia in the first place, then they could just as easily pretend
to be Wendell and Monica Wilkins as be charmed into believing 
that they are.  

So, charming the Grangers to believe that they are different people 
won't make any difference to their being traced.  It will only make 
a difference to whether or not the Death Eaters get any information
from them if they are traced to Australia.  Actually, it would put 
them at greater risk, since they would have no idea that the 
Death Eaters might be coming after them or what to do if they
did.

We know from the Longbottom story that lack of knowledge will
not prevent Death Eaters from questioning and torturing people.
So, erasing any memories of Hermione (and anything she may 
have said about Harry) will not help her parents.  It would only 
prolong their torture. 

The only people it will help would be Hermione and Harry--and
that's only if she's told her parents any information vital to what
she and Harry are up to now.  Possibly she did, and that's why 
she had to take the step of erasing their identifies so completely.
(Although, I have to question whether a memory charm cast
by a young witch who "only knows the theory" would be strong
enough to withstand the magic of the Death Eaters in retrieving
memories.)

Probably, she just thought this would be the kindest, best way
to dispose of her parents for the time being.  But it really doesn't
make sense for her to have asked them if they wanted it done.
It wouldn't have done them any good at all.






From sweenlit at gmail.com  Sat Oct 17 21:52:06 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:52:06 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbcvsu+rg8f@eGroups.com>
References: <hbbp6c+b50p@eGroups.com> <hbcvsu+rg8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0910171452m2554995cq53e2ceab53eb8258@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188101

sartoris22:
I know we have more derogatory languge for an unpartnered woman than an
unpartnered man, but think about how society really works. And I am not
talking about a man who simply isn't married or doesn't have a steady
girlfriend, I am talking about a man who has no sexual or romantic
relationships with women, like Slughorn and Snape. In our world, men like
that are less socially acceptable than their female counterparts.

Lynda:

LOL! I happen to be one of those unpartnered people. And many of my friends
both male and female are similarly unpartnered. Oh the stories I could tell.
. .I think we come on many of the same conflicts truthfully although it is
more acceptable for me to plus one my best friend (female) than for my
church mate an unpartnered male, to call one of his unpartnered male friends
to attend a work party or concert with him. For my friend and I who attend
the same church we are simply happy to be in a congregation that doesn't
assign a romantic attachment to us because we sit at the same table after
the service for the social hour or in the same pew occasionally during the
service.

I think it depends on how the unpartenered people handle the situation as
well. People are more likely to take us as we are if we do as well.

Now as far as HP is concerned, I'll point out that Snape and Slughorn are
part of an isolated group. Professors at a school for kids living away from
home, where being unpartnered is more acceptable than in the world outside
wizarding academia.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 17 23:15:56 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:15:56 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4ADA2EA8.8050009@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hbdj7c+f6q7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188102

> Bart:
>     One of the basic premises I use for determining sexism: If you 
> reverse the genders, does it change anything? For various reasons, which 
> are far too heavily connected to politics for me to bring up here, there 
> still exists a double standard in both British and American societies, 
> where when a male takes sexual advantage of a female, that is usually 
> considered to be a crime, while if a female takes sexual advantage of a 
> male, that is usually considered to be the male "getting lucky."
> 
>     Now, keeping these in mind, let's say that guys were trying to use 
> "love" potions on Hermoine, and one of them actually got ingested by 
> Ginny. Would that have been much different than Ron accidentally 
> consuming a "love" potion meant for Harry? Would it have been as comicial?

Magpie:
It's likely that for some people with the genders reversed it would suddenly look like a sexual assault in ways it doesn't to them now. But that's not the only thing going on. The wider idea that women scheme and manipulate the innocent, overmatched men is a recognizable, traditional--and often intentionally sexist--view of gender behavior. The boys' desire is being controlled and manipulated by the women usually without love potions, but love potions are marketed to girls as if this is naturally what they are going to want to do. There's a lot of people who are very fond of the idea that women use men's sexuality against them so are partly if not mostly or totally responsible for the man's actions when under the influence of that sexuality. It might sound like girl power on a superficial level in a "boys are dumb!" way, but while a woman could certainly have a personality capable of dominating a man, it's not really power at all for women in general.

-m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 17 23:48:46 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:48:46 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbde54+qdf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbdl4u+jf8q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188103


Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
It's also a bit illogical for her to memory charm her parents
unless it was *without* consent. If they were willing to move to
Australia in the first place, then they could just as easily pretend
to be Wendell and Monica Wilkins as be charmed into believing
that they are.

So, charming the Grangers to believe that they are different people
won't make any difference to their being traced. It will only make
a difference to whether or not the Death Eaters get any information
from them if they are traced to Australia. Actually, it would put
them at greater risk, since they would have no idea that the
Death Eaters might be coming after them or what to do if they
did. <SNIP>

Alla:

I disagree. I think it can make a huge difference if Grangers will read about Hermione being caught and tortured by DE for example if they are pretending to be someone else, OR if they would read that imaginary tale planted by DE to make them come out and save their daughter when they truly **believe** that they are somebody else.

I do not know about you, but no matter how much I will be pretending that I am someone else, I will run as fast as I can to save a child in my family, pretended indentities be damned. But if I will not remember that I know this child, **then** I will stay put.

JMO,

Alla





From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 00:26:46 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 00:26:46 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbdl4u+jf8q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbdnc6+99rq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188104

> Alla:
> I do not know about you, but no matter how much I will be pretending that I am someone else, I will run as fast as I can to save a child in my family, pretended indentities be damned. But if I will not remember that I know this child, **then** I will stay put.

Kemper now:
The Weasley's know Ron is out risking his life in a war.  So do many parents in RL whose children are various conflicts throughout the world.  As much as parents might want their child to live, those parents and the Weasley's honor their children's choice.  Why wouldn't the Grangers?  

Kemper




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 00:39:47 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 00:39:47 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbdnc6+99rq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbdo4j+4kvm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188105



> > Alla:
> > I do not know about you, but no matter how much I will be pretending that I am someone else, I will run as fast as I can to save a child in my family, pretended indentities be damned. But if I will not remember that I know this child, **then** I will stay put.
> 
> Kemper now:
> The Weasley's know Ron is out risking his life in a war.  So do many parents in RL whose children are various conflicts throughout the world.  As much as parents might want their child to live, those parents and the Weasley's honor their children's choice.  Why wouldn't the Grangers?  
>

Alla:

It is two very different things IMO knowing that your child is out there risking their life and honoring their choice AND what I believe Hermione was trying to protect her parents from, the situation where parents know that their child is ALREADY caught and may die at any second.

Sadly we hear way too often in this world when hostages are caught, right? And relatives ARE pleading and begging to save their lifes, and I think this has nothing to do with honoring or dishonoring choices, it is just impossibility IMO to keep silent knowing that your loved one can die at any time and you did not do anything possible to save them.

It is not about a loved one dying on battlefield even, it is about dying slowly, tortured, humiliated, etc, etc. I do not see how Grangers will be able to stay away and think oh yes, we will honor her choice and let her die. IMO of course.

Montavilla argued that it makes no difference if Grangers simply pretend that they are different people and to me, it does, because I know I won't be able to stay away. I can only speak for myself of course.

And just to be clear, I am speaking here about Hermione may or may not being caught for real, this story may be a fake, just a way to lure her parents out of hiding and IMO it will be much harder to do for DE if Grangers do not remember for real who Hermione is.

JMO,

Alla




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 02:59:18 2009
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris22)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 02:59:18 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0910171452m2554995cq53e2ceab53eb8258@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbe0a6+v68c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188106

Lynda:

LOL! I happen to be one of those unpartnered people. And many of my friends
both male and female are similarly unpartnered. Oh the stories I could tell.
. .I think we come on many of the same conflicts truthfully although it is
more acceptable for me to plus one my best friend (female) than for my
church mate an unpartnered male, to call one of his unpartnered male friends
to attend a work party or concert with him. 
I think it depends on how the unpartenered people handle the situation as
well. People are more likely to take us as we are if we do as well.

Now as far as HP is concerned, I'll point out that Snape and Slughorn are part of an isolated group. Professors at a school for kids living away from home, where being unpartnered is more acceptable than in the world outside wizarding academia.

sartoris22:

Increasingy, an older unpartnered male is considered threatening or weird in American society. But older unpartnered males have aways been considered somewhat strange, whch is why I say that HP takes a progressive approach to the lack of partnership. Consider Sirius. He spends--what?--fourteen years in prison, and no one thinks it strange that he's not trying to hook up with a woman--a still somewhat handsome dude with money? Wormtail doesn't have a woman. Alberforth doesn't have a woman. Fudge doesn't have a woman. In fact, many of the older male charcters are unpartnered, at least as far as the readers know. None of the characters I mention are in the academy. While I think HP is somewhat male-centric, it is liberating, in my opinon, in its acceptance of unpartnered people, particularly males.









From sweenlit at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 04:39:35 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:39:35 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbe0a6+v68c@eGroups.com>
References: <43e41d1e0910171452m2554995cq53e2ceab53eb8258@mail.gmail.com>
	 <hbe0a6+v68c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0910172139k2e8753f7vaee506b15382b561@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188107

Lynda:

Being unpartnered myself, and having a lot of friends who are also
unpartnered, I find this expectancy that unpartnered people, especially men
is indicative of a lack of open-mindedness and a strange thought process
that says "everyone must be on the hunt for a life partner or there's
something wrong with them" Would I accept one if something of the sort opens
up in my life? Yes. Would my friends? For a couple I can say yes, I'm sure
they would. For others, it might be a little harder--for any of us it would
be a change to move in that direction. We've lived our adult lives without
partners and getting used to a relationship of that nature takes some doing.
I think that's one of the things I enjoy about Harry Potter. They don't dig
too deeply into the personal details of the lives of many of the minor
characters and that both allows freedom of thought and imagination to work
in the minds of the readers. It also says somewhat subliminally, its ok to
be single as an adult. It's also ok to be partnered/taken as an adult. But
you need to be happy with your decisions, wherever they lead you, and as
mentioned already that's a very liberating thought.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Oct 18 04:54:19 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 00:54:19 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbe0a6+v68c@eGroups.com>
References: <hbe0a6+v68c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4ADA9F7B.9070701@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188108

sartoris22 wrote:
> Alberforth doesn't have a woman. 

Bart:
    Still haven't figured out what the goats are for?

    Bart



From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 07:05:39 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 07:05:39 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbbhls+ppbr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbeeo3+kieb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188109



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sistermagpie at ... wrote:
>
> > Rick: (or at least I think it's Rick... somebody isn't attributing remarks where
> > the writer changes)
> > > Besides, there aren't very many time markers in the Muggleville timeline
> > > to place the stories even within a decade--The Ford Anglia is all I can
> > > think of off hand (produced 1959-1967). The other items: flush toilets,
> > > double-decker buses, TV, Radio all predate the Anglia.
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > There is more evidence. In "The Letters from no One" in "Philosopher's
> > Stone", Dudley gets a clip round the ear because he is trying to take his
> > computer.
> 
> Magpie:
> And Dudley also gets a computer game at one point, doesn't he? One that technically came out a few years after the story is taking place? And Harry's birthdate is 1980, isn't it? I can't remember if they ever say that specifically in the books. We know Grindelwald was defeated in 1945, and Lord Voldemort's life has some dates. 
> 
> -m
>

Montavilla47:

The headstones for James and Lily Potter give their birth years.  They were both born in 1960.  I forget if we have text evidence for them dying at 21 years.  I think there was something about Sirius going to jail when he was 22?  

But the strongest book date has aways been that Deathday party in CoS.  





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 07:14:10 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 07:14:10 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD8F061.6010302@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbef82+65ub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188110



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Magpie:
> > Really? I think there's tons of standard tradional male/female role behavior reinforced throughout the books. Hermione might be smarter than Ron or Harry, but where you say she "quietly backs a bag," she actually packs their bags, and seems to do most of the domestic work on their camping trip as well. (And most of the romance follows set patterns of male/female as well.) 

Rick Kennerly:
> You're only partially correct about Hg doing the domestic work on the 
> camping trip.  Harry and Ron policed up the site while Hg does the 
> important magical work of removing the protective hexes and spells.

Montavilla47:

At one point, Hermione complains about Ron complaining about the
food, since she's the one who doing all the food preparation--
including gathering mushrooms (although later on Ron and Harry
pretend to be gathering blackberries in order to escape her).  I believe
that she also complains because she's the only in the tent who 
every does the washing up (i.e., washing the dishes).

Hermione is also shown doing laundering at the Burrow, and she's 
told to change the linens in the guest bedrooms, while Ron and
Harry are told to clean out the chicken shed.  Those sound like 
traditional girl/boy chores to me.

But, yes, Hermione is also the one who casts all the protective
spells--until some point (I forget exactly where), when Harry
takes over the task.  It might be when Ron disappears and 
Hermione is too emotionally distraught to do anything.






From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 07:31:09 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 07:31:09 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbdl4u+jf8q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbeg7t+5t9q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188111



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> It's also a bit illogical for her to memory charm her parents
> unless it was *without* consent. If they were willing to move to
> Australia in the first place, then they could just as easily pretend
> to be Wendell and Monica Wilkins as be charmed into believing
> that they are.
> 
> So, charming the Grangers to believe that they are different people
> won't make any difference to their being traced. It will only make
> a difference to whether or not the Death Eaters get any information
> from them if they are traced to Australia. Actually, it would put
> them at greater risk, since they would have no idea that the
> Death Eaters might be coming after them or what to do if they
> did. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I disagree. I think it can make a huge difference if Grangers will read about Hermione being caught and tortured by DE for example if they are pretending to be someone else, OR if they would read that imaginary tale planted by DE to make them come out and save their daughter when they truly **believe** that they are somebody else.
> 
> I do not know about you, but no matter how much I will be pretending that I am someone else, I will run as fast as I can to save a child in my family, pretended indentities be damned. But if I will not remember that I know this child, **then** I will stay put.
> 

Montavilla47:

Where would the Grangers be reading this account of their 
daughter being tortured?  Muggles don't get wizard news.

If the Death Eaters can't trace Hermione's parents, then 
they can't be sending them messages about her daughter.
If they can trace the Grangers, then they don't need to 
lure them anywhere, they can just go and get them.

And, at that point, it doesn't matter whether they are
memory-charmed or not.





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 11:23:22 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 07:23:22 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding
 Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <20791853.1255825919912.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <20791853.1255825919912.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADAFAAA.3070508@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188112

Kemper now:
> The Weasley's know Ron is out risking his life in a war.  So do many parents in RL whose children are various conflicts throughout the world.  As much as parents might want their child to live, those parents and the Weasley's honor their children's choice.  Why wouldn't the Grangers?  
>   
rick:
It's not the Granger's world, they didn't grow up with terror of the 
first rise of TDL to power.  In the Granger circles--well educated 
professionals--you don't really let go of your kids until after 
university, preferably after graduate school, say around 24. 

It is actually amazing, when you think on it, that they'd let Hg go to 
Hogwarts at all.  When compared to the Granger's schooling, a Hogwarts 
training is more trade school than traditional education. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 14:14:33 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:14:33 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <8402102.1255850179984.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <8402102.1255850179984.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADB22C9.6070307@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188113


> Montavilla47:
>
> At one point, Hermione complains about Ron complaining about the
> food, since she's the one who doing all the food preparation--
> including gathering mushrooms (although later on Ron and Harry
> pretend to be gathering blackberries in order to escape her). 
rick:

But take the series as a whole. 

Certainly feeding oneself is a deficiency of a Hogwart's education.   On 
the camping trip the trio is surviving on scavenged food and a 
particularly bony fish--pike, I think.  The point is that the trio are 
ill-equipped in life skills or practical education.  This deficiency is 
highlighted when Ted Tonks fishes a salmon with his wand "Accio Salmon," 
and one of the four in his party fries it up--for some reason, that's a 
favorite section of mine in that book; I can almost smell the salmon 
cooking myself. 

Another take on this initial camping trip is that Hg is the only one 
self-educated enough to tell toadstools from mushrooms--no knowledge is 
wasted on Hg, who prides herself on being prepared--intellectually, at 
least--for anything. In the end, though, the trio resort to stealing and 
shoplifting to eat (yeah, I know Hg leaves some money here and there). 

Ron, being the next to youngest child of seven, is particularly crippled 
when it comes to feeding himself, but Hg and HP both lament they don't 
know any "household spells" at the Burrow, having grown up in 
non-magical families. 

Before the wedding Ron & Harry are also working at the sink cleaning 
sprouts without magic while Fred and George are headed down to the 
village to show off some card tricks instead of helping with magic.  And 
there is tons of work to be done by everyone as Mrs. W's list seems 
never ending--you highlight only two of a multitude of tasks. 

At OOP Headquarters, Sirius does some cooking and all the kids are 
cleaning.

Snape and Slughorn teach potions, which is kinda like cooking.  But wait 
Professor Sprout teaches the garden arts, that's a bit feminine--hold 
on, though, that job is taken over by Neville and didn't Hagrid do a lot 
of gardening, too? 

> Montavilla47:
> I believe that she also complains because she's the only in the tent who 
> every does the washing up (i.e., washing the dishes).
>   
rick:
I don't recall that, and I'm reading DH now. 
> Montavilla47:
> Hermione is also shown doing laundering at the Burrow, and she's 
> told to change the linens in the guest bedrooms, while Ron and
> Harry are told to clean out the chicken shed.  Those sound like 
> traditional girl/boy chores to me.
>   

rick:
Actually, it Mr. W and HP who are assigned to muck out the chicken 
coop.  And Ron's cleaning his room.  These were assigned tasks; the 
actual point was to keep the trio from having time together to plan.  
Harry & Ginny set the table, Harry refers to them all making 
"vol-au-vents," George and Bill set up the tables in the garden for HP's 
birthday party but Fred and George and Hg decorate (DH). 

In various books HP is seen cleaning his room, cooking breakfast for the 
Dursleys (SS & POA), or cleaning the kitchen (POA).  

> Montavilla47:
> But, yes, Hermione is also the one who casts all the protective
> spells--until some point (I forget exactly where), when Harry
> takes over the task.  It might be when Ron disappears and 
> Hermione is too emotionally distraught to do anything.
>
>   

rick:
You left out: the boys scoured the campsites to obliterate any signs 
they'd been there.

I just don't think your thesis about sexist roles in job assignments 
bears scrutiny. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Oct 18 14:17:03 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:17:03 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hb37pu+40r4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbf80v+p4s3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188114


> Chapter Seven: The Sorting Hat
 
> Discussion Questions:
> 
> 1. How do you think Harry's first impressions of Hogwarts differed from those of
> the other first year students? It seemed like nobody knew what to expect for the
> sorting, but do you think those who had grown up knowing about Hogwarts were
surprised by other things?

Potioncat:
I think all the first years were amazed. Knowing what something will be like, and actually seeing it are very different. Harry and the other Muggle-borns would have the additional amazement at even the very ordinary magic.

> 
2. Who is your favorite of the ghosts introduced in this chapter, and why?

Potioncat:
I didn't have a favorite, then or now, but I've always been curious about the Fat Friar.  I'm even more curious now because we learned nothing about him at all. But I agree with Alla, the thought of ghosts with unfinished business who never make it to the Hereafter makes me uncomfortable. After we met Moaning Myrtle, I felt sad that she was never reunited with her family. Later, Snape refers to ghosts as imprints left behind (or something along that line.) So now I'm not sure if a ghost is the person, or something similar to the interactive portraits.

> 
> 4. If you were being sorted, would you have a discussion with the hat like
Harry, or would you go with wherever it wanted to put you?

Potioncat:
I guess that would depend on what I expected and what it said. 

While I've known it all along, it was this time that I really "got" that the Sorting Hat asked where to put Harry (a rhetorical question, I think) and Harry piped up with not Slytherin. The resulting discussion between Hat and boy has created all sorts of threads

 Both Draco and Ron were sorted very quickly. So for some students there wasn't even an opportunity for discussion. Is that because the Sorting Hat knows instantly where the student wants to go, so it's only in ambiguous cases or ones in which the house doesn't really fit the student that a conversation occurs? I'm not sure.

.
> 
> 5. Do you think any of the Weasleys wished they were in a house other than
Gryffindor?

Potioncat:
No, because the Weasley family seems so close knit and their values seem shared. 
I still think Percy and the twins would have made good Slytherins, if it wasn't for the Pure-blood ideology. 
>


> 9. If you had the banquet of your choice magically appear in front of you, what
would it include?

Potioncat:
Not Jell-O. And I say that because the American edition includes Jell-O. Is there a gelatin based item on the list in the British edition? From an earlier thread here or at OT, I thought that perhaps Jell-O wasn't used in Britain.
> 


> 10. What did you think of Neville's account of his family's concern that he
wasn't magical?

Potioncat:
It tells us how deeply felt the importance of magic is to the WW families. Yet I don't think it's all that different in the RW. Many parents and school systems try to fit kids into a college-bound-science-based mold that isn't always a fit---or patents push non-athletic kids into sports. Not exactly the same thing, I know.

I think it's important that while everyone in the family doubted Neville's magical ability, no one was rejecting him. Of course, it didn't do much for his self-confidence.


> 
> 11. The first time you read the chapter, what did you think was happening when
>Harry had the pain in his scar while looking at Snape and Quirrell?

Potioncat: 
I believed that Snape had done something. It wasn't until much later that I realized he had not. Now I wonder if it was only the pain that made Harry think the teacher didn't like him, because he was right about that part. Nothing in canon, except for the pain would indicate dislike.


> 
> 12. What was your first impression of Dumbledore? Aside from the fact that we
> learn so much more about him as the series goes on, do you think that the "few
>words" and the way he introduces the school song are typical of him?

Potioncat:
I was bewildered. It didn't seem the same person we saw in chapter one. He reminded me a little of Merlin from Disney's "The Sword in the Stone." 


> 
> 13. Did you think there was any greater significance to Dumbledore's statement
that music is "a magic beyond all we do here"?

Potioncat:
I don't think so. I did expect to see music used in magic somewhere along the line---which we did in HBP. 


>15. What did you think of Harry's dream the first time you read the chapter?

> Carol:
> It was pretty clear that Harry already associated Draco and Snape, or Slytherin in general, with Voldemort. The role of Quirrell's turban in the dream turns out to be prescient on Harry's part, but I didn't know it on a first reading--only that the turban would somehow be important.

Potioncat:
I thought the dream would be important for the readers, since we know Harry won't remember it. But I didn't know what the purpose of it was--except to review Harry's feelings about this magical world he'd entered. It also set us up to see Snape as the villain.
The dream does put Draco, Snape and LV together, but we don't yet know that Snape is associated with Slytherin.



Thanks Megan for some interesting questions. 

I'd like to add that it's been a real pleasure to take this overall look at the HP series. I've read each chapter as the discussion comes due, taking time to savor the experience and to notice how some things fit so well in the bigger picture.





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 14:22:23 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:22:23 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding
 Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <23235469.1255823502848.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <23235469.1255823502848.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADB249F.2020809@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188115


> Alla:
>
> I disagree. I think it can make a huge difference if Grangers will read about Hermione being caught and tortured by DE for example if they are pretending to be someone else, OR if they would read that imaginary tale planted by DE to make them come out and save their daughter when they truly **believe** that they are somebody else
rick:
The real problem about Hg's parents is that TDL and DEs might try to use 
torturing them to get to HP through her.  They'd already demonstrated 
(DH) that they'd kidnap kids to put pressure on parents.  But then they 
reverse tactics by trying to kidnap Neville's grandmother to put 
pressure on him (DH, The Lost Diadem). 

Hg's parents were more vulnerable than regular wizarding parents because 
they had no powers, no experience in the WW, nor any knowledge of the 
reach of the powers of TDL.  Sitting ducks, come to mind. 

The trio could never sit by and allow Hg's parents be tortured.  The 
trio'd try to rescue them. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 14:26:21 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:26:21 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbeg7t+5t9q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbf8id+3igv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188116





> Montavilla47:
> 
> Where would the Grangers be reading this account of their 
> daughter being tortured?  Muggles don't get wizard news.
> 
> If the Death Eaters can't trace Hermione's parents, then 
> they can't be sending them messages about her daughter.
> If they can trace the Grangers, then they don't need to 
> lure them anywhere, they can just go and get them.
> 
> And, at that point, it doesn't matter whether they are
> memory-charmed or not.
>


Alla:

Hmm, is there a problem of sending these news to Muggle media which can be received in many countries? Harry for the first time hears about Sirius Black on Muggle TV, right?

I do not see why it will be particularly complicated for DE to do the same thing, by force if needed and no, they do not need to trace Grangers to particular country even, TV channels are received in many countries. And some newspapers too, right?




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 14:32:32 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:32:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <235609.1255835079440.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <235609.1255835079440.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADB2700.40906@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188117


> sartoris22:
>
> Increasingy, an older unpartnered male is considered threatening or weird in American society. But older unpartnered males have aways been considered somewhat strange, whch is why I say that HP takes a progressive approach to the lack of partnership. 
>   
rick:
Of course, with few exceptions, like Geoff, I don't know where anybody 
else on the list is located geographically.

But I'd think the questions about the partnered (or in this unpartnered 
status) of the Hogwarts Headmaster, Heads of Household, or Game Keeper, 
who all reside on the property (we really don't know about Madam Hooch, 
Professor Sprout, and some of the minor teaching characters), is really 
a function of most of us Americans not being familiar with the English 
Boarding School genre? 

Read enough Dickens, Bronte, Austen or the Tom Brown series and 
unmarried teachers are an unquestioned staple of this type of 
literature, background noise.

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brian at rescueddoggies.com  Sun Oct 18 11:57:02 2009
From: brian at rescueddoggies.com (Brian)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 08:57:02 -0300
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
Message-ID: <4ADB028E.6040201@rescueddoggies.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188118

Replying to... Montavilla47:
"And, at that point, it doesn't matter whether they are
memory-charmed or not."

Surely the main point of the charm was threefold.

So that, if found, they couldn't tell anything useful
To make it less likely that they would be found, as if they can't 
remember, they can't accidentally let anything slip which might come to 
the attention of a witch or wizard.  It's hard, even for those who have 
been trained to do it, to keep a different identity 24/7.
To make sure that they didn't miss her if she died

All three may be flawed, but in a desperate situation people do 
desperate things to try to protect the ones they love.

Brian



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 18 15:25:36 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:25:36 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <4ADB22C9.6070307@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbfc1g+51f1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188119

 rick:
> You left out: the boys scoured the campsites to obliterate any signs 
> they'd been there.
> 
> I just don't think your thesis about sexist roles in job assignments 
> bears scrutiny. 

Magpie:
But she just gave canon that indicated Hermione is doing the cooking and washing up and gathering food. That you can come up with a reason besides "they made her do it because she's a girl" or pointing out Ron and Harry doing other things doesn't change that. Whether or not one finds it sexist, the girl's mostly doing the cooking and washing up.

Rick:
Hg's parents were more vulnerable than regular wizarding parents because
they had no powers, no experience in the WW, nor any knowledge of the
reach of the powers of TDL. Sitting ducks, come to mind.

The trio could never sit by and allow Hg's parents be tortured. The
trio'd try to rescue them.

Magpie:
Of course, the Grangers are never in any actual danger to begin with (to answer Carol's question about how the movie would handle it, but guess is they'll ignore it since it never had to be there to begin with). The Grangers being memory charmed doesn't prevent them from being tortured or from being sitting ducks. It just makes them even more ignorant than they already were--which was pretty ignorant. 

To me it seems like the most obvious reason for the memory charm is the same reason as most memory charms on Muggles: it's the quickest way to get them to go where you want them to go and the easiest way to keep them from interfering or asking questions. She gave them a false desire to move to Australia and some false memories about their identities and they removed themselves from the UK under different names without any difficulty to her. It's the standard way to deal with Muggles. The Dursleys' treatment is unusual.

-m  




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 15:39:19 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:39:19 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <4ADB028E.6040201@rescueddoggies.com>
Message-ID: <hbfcr7+m478@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188120



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Brian <brian at ...> wrote:
>
> Replying to... Montavilla47:
> "And, at that point, it doesn't matter whether they are
> memory-charmed or not."
> 
> Surely the main point of the charm was threefold.
> 
> So that, if found, they couldn't tell anything useful
> To make it less likely that they would be found, as if they can't 
> remember, they can't accidentally let anything slip which might come to 
> the attention of a witch or wizard.  It's hard, even for those who have 
> been trained to do it, to keep a different identity 24/7.
> To make sure that they didn't miss her if she died
> 
> All three may be flawed, but in a desperate situation people do 
> desperate things to try to protect the ones they love.
> 
> Brian
>

Montavilla47:

I think the third reason (they wouldn't miss her if she 
died) is the main reason Hermione enchanted them.  At
least, that's the impression that I get from her in DH.

But, as others have said, it's very unlikely that the Grangers
would have consented to losing their memories of their
daughter--even if the alternative is to hear through
third parties that she's dead or suffering.

As for the first reason, it's hard to know if the Grangers
would know more than the Weasleys--who became targets
only when it was known that Ron was traveling with Harry.

Of course, Hermione was known to be traveling with Harry
much earlier than Ron was (thanks to the Ghoul).  So, it 
was possible that the Death Eaters were looking for her 
parents.

Which brings us to reason #2--that it would make it
impossible for the Grangers to accidentally slip that 
about their identities.  I think that's a toss-up.  We 
don't know how good or bad the Grangers are at keeping
secrets.  And, Lucius Malfoy had once seen them, so
they could be possibly be recognized on sight.  That 
makes the trip to Australia a pretty good idea.  

But, of course, if Lucius were to go looking for them,
their new identities wouldn't do them any good unless
they also changed their appearance.  Which seems like 
a higher priority.

Yeah, it still seems like a needlessly complicated way
to protect somebody--when you have the option of 
having the Order put them into a safe house.  As the
Dursleys were.


Alla:

>Hmm, is there a problem of sending these news to Muggle media which can be
>received in many countries? Harry for the first time hears about Sirius Black on
>Muggle TV, right?

>I do not see why it will be particularly complicated for DE to do the same
>thing, by force if needed and no, they do not need to trace Grangers to
>particular country even, TV channels are received in many countries. And some
>newspapers too, right?

Montavilla47:

The report on Sirius Black required a visit to the Muggle Prime Minister 
and special cooperation.  And, as far as we know, it was only on the 
British Media.  And it was reported in a way that would make sense
to Muggles--so as not to let on that he was a wizard.

Although Voldemort travels to other countries, he doesn't seem to 
have any official pull there.  He's just doing stuff on his own.  And
we don't ever see or hear about the Death Eater power extending 
beyond Britain.  

So, I think this scenario in which the Death Eaters are sending
out false stories through the Media in which Hermione is being 
tortured rather far-fetched.  How would these stories be worded to
make any sense to the Muggle public?










From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 16:11:53 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:11:53 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <hbfc1g+51f1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbfeo9+kpik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188121

> Rick:
> Hg's parents were more vulnerable than regular wizarding parents because they had no powers, no experience in the WW, nor any knowledge of the reach of the powers of TDL. Sitting ducks, come to mind.

> Magpie:
> To me it seems like the most obvious reason for the memory charm is the same reason as most memory charms on Muggles: it's the quickest way to get them to go where you want them to go and the easiest way to keep them from interfering or asking questions. ... It's the standard way to deal with Muggles. The Dursleys' treatment is unusual.

Kemper now:
I just want to add canon evidence to Magpie's response.
In GF prior to getting to the campsite for the Quidditch Wold Cup, Mr. Roberts, a Muggle, get memory wiped.  The wizard who does it says Mr. Roberts need 10 memory wipes a day to 'keep [Mr. Roberts] happy' when actually, it's to keep the wizarding community happy.

In HBP, the British Prime Minister has a scheduled phone call with some head of state but that head of state is obliviated by wizards to forget the call so that PM can have an unscheduled meeting with Fudge and Scrimgeour. 

I can't recall where this other canon is in the books, but there's also that time when dragon(s) are seen on some beach and Ministry of Magic Obliviators visit the Muggle beach goers and obliterate some memories and alleviate the wizarding community.


Kemper




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 16:25:52 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:25:52 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbfcr7+m478@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbffig+tfku@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188122

> Alla:
>I do not see why it will be particularly complicated for DE to do the same thing, by force if needed and no, they do not need to trace Grangers to particular country even, TV channels are received in many countries. And some newspapers too, right?

> Montavilla47:
> So, I think this scenario in which the Death Eaters are sending
> out false stories through the Media in which Hermione is being 
> tortured rather far-fetched.  How would these stories be worded to
> make any sense to the Muggle public?

Kemper now:
It is also out of character for DE's to know or acknowledge anything Muggle.  DE's with perhaps the exception of Snape don't seem to hold value in Muggle life and culture, so unless they grew up with it like Snape and Tom Riddle (who both seem to hold that info from the DE's) they wouldn't learn it on their own.

Kemper




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 16:43:57 2009
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris22)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:43:57 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4ADB2700.40906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbfgkd+2uk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188123

Rick:
> 
> Read enough Dickens, Bronte, Austen or the Tom Brown series and 
> unmarried teachers are an unquestioned staple of this type of 
> literature, background noise.
> 
Sartoris22:

In a previous post, I  reveal my nationality, American, and cite exampes of the many non-academic unmarried males in the novels. Even if one excludes the teachers, there are a considerable number of seemingly unpartnered people, particularly males, in the books. I cited the example of Sirius, a man who has been in prison over ten years but doesn't seem compelled or pressured to get a woman.






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Oct 18 16:58:44 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 18 Oct 2009 16:58:44 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/18/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1255885124.563.89279.m4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188124

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday October 18, 2009
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. 

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK


All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2009 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20091018/7f0ec365/attachment.html>

From keywestdaze at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 17:07:08 2009
From: keywestdaze at yahoo.com (Christy)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's motives (was Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents)
In-Reply-To: <hbfc1g+51f1@eGroups.com>
References: <hbfc1g+51f1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <780837.67698.qm@web55004.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188125

I think Hermione had a true desire to prevent her parents from suffering -- and not just suffering possible torture/death at the hands of Voldemort and his Death Eaters; but, suffering from worry and possible grief. Hermione would be in the thick of the fight against Voldemort and injury or death was a very real possibility. Because of the charm, the Grangers had no daughter to worry about day after day for an indefinite period of time; had she not survived, they would have no daughter to mourn. Speaking as someone who has recently suffered a devastating loss, I can tell you that avoiding that grief would be a real temptation, even if it meant "forgetting" my life before. Yes, the charm does take away someone and a life you loved, and I wouldn't accept the charm given the choice in hindsight, but on my worst days, at my weakest moments, I would be tempted.

The war in the Wizard world was spilling over into the Muggle world, and had been for the past year and would only get worse, esp. now that an important leader (Dumbledore) was gone. So, the Grangers, like all Muggles, were in danger just by going about their daily lives. Whether or not they actually would be harmed as innocent bystanders  is immaterial -- the threat did exist.  I would want my loved ones as far away as possible from the effects of the Dementers and the attacks on the Muggles and their infrastructure -- and that would mean getting them out of the country.

Likewise, Hermione could go about her own "mission" without the distraction of worrying about her parents. (Selfish? Perhaps. Practical? Definitely.)

I don't think Hermione's intentions were as cruel and self-centered as many are making them out to be... I do realize that we cannot escape the choice vs. no choice argument, I merely wish to paint Hermione in a bit better light. I might add that Hermione is not one of my favorite characters  and she made me angry more often than not throughout HBP and DH. However, protecting her parents, both when I first read DH and now while grieving myself, is not one of the things she did that made me angry. I feel I understood her motives too well. I also I have to admit I would have done whatever was necessary to protect my loved ones too if I were in her place, with or without their consent. So, I can not very well judge her for doing something I would have done myself.

Plus, her actions posed a great risk to herself. If she can not reverse the charm or, if she can, but her relationship to her parents is too damaged to be repaired, then she loses her parents.

Christy



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From terrianking at aol.com  Sun Oct 18 17:29:59 2009
From: terrianking at aol.com (terrianking at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:29:59 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
Message-ID: <c6a.5d3641ed.380caa97@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188126



In a message dated 10/18/2009 10:40:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
montavilla47 at yahoo.com writes:

Montavilla47:

The report on Sirius Black required a visit  to the Muggle Prime Minister 
and special cooperation. And, as far as we  know, it was only on the 
British Media. And it was reported in a way that  would make sense
to Muggles--so as not to let on that he was a  wizard.

Although Voldemort travels to other countries, he doesn't seem  to 
have any official pull there. He's just doing stuff on his own.  And
we don't ever see or hear about the Death Eater power extending  
beyond Britain. 

So, I think this scenario in which the Death  Eaters are sending
out false stories through the Media in which Hermione is  being 
tortured rather far-fetched. How would these stories be worded  to
make any sense to the Muggle public?



Robert:
They needn't be worded in any way at all. A staged video would do it. Plus  
a lot of lying. 
"Video surveillance recorded a young women, identified as Hermione Granger  
by a friend who watched helplessly,  as she was grabbed by two men and  
forced into a car as she and her friend left a doughnut shop." 
National news, possibly international. The Grangers' imaginations can do  
the rest given they know about the WW. 
The DE have Wormtail among their ranks - an experienced wizard when it  
comes to staging public spectacles.
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From keywestdaze at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 18:15:18 2009
From: keywestdaze at yahoo.com (Christy)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 11:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Partnering in the HP books (was Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse)
In-Reply-To: <hbfgkd+2uk2@eGroups.com>
References: <hbfgkd+2uk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <636891.31604.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188127


>Sartoris22:

>In a previous post, I reveal my nationality, American, and cite exampes
of the many non-academic unmarried males in the novels. Even if one
>excludes the teachers, there are a considerable number of seemingly
unpartnered people, particularly males, in the books. I cited the
example of >Sirius, a man who has been in prison over ten years but
doesn't seem compelled or pressured to get a woman.

Christy:

Since you use Sirius as an example, I will remind all of us that Sirius is focused on protecting Harry when he escapes prison in POA (a bit more important than meeting a woman) and on the run throughout GOF. For all we know he is sowing some pent-up wild oats off page before he returns to Hogwarts to be near Harry during the tournament (or maybe not, maybe he's too focus on remaining "under the radar" to risk it). Throughout OOTP he was in hiding. Of the women we see come in and out of Grimwald Place, most are not appropriate matches for him. (Molly is married, Fleur is with Bill, Tonks is his cousin, Minerva is much older, Ginny and Hermione are -- well way too inappropriate to even think about). As for other order members we know little or nothing about, for all we know he might have had a fling or two. 

Consider the longevity of a Wizard's life. In our own lives, we
probably have friends who married shortly after finishing their
education (in their twenties) as well as others who married in their
thirties or forties. What is middle age to us, is still quite young to
JKR's wizards. (FYI: I am an American female who got married at 38 to a
man 8 years my senior, who
had been widowed but didn't marry the first time until almost 30.)

Consider also that the political climate is not the best for finding a
mate: who do you trust; who shares your world view? Your circle of
friends and acquaintances is smaller than in an environment of safety
and security. The students at Hogwarts actually have a bit easier
situation to make important judgments regarding friendship and romance since they are with in close quarters with their peers and can see them acting and reacting in a variety of situations on a daily basis. Consider special circumstances, such as Hagrid who has no true peers until he meets Madame Maxine  and Snape whose heart
belongs to Lily to the exclusion of all others. I'm not at all surprised so many are "unpartnered."

In any case, what we speculate about what happens off page is just that -- speculation. It can be fun to speculate, but it doesn't make what we speculate true, no matter how well constructed our arguments  are. And, my former college English professors would have torn up some of those arguments because of the amount of speculation on which they are based. I see some posts (and not necessarily the one I include here -- I use it only to open the door to my own opinions) that I think come dangerously close to trying to make truths out of little to no canon-based fact.

Christy



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lealess at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 19:29:57 2009
From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 19:29:57 -0000
Subject: The unattached, the Dursleys, the role of women
Message-ID: <hbfqbl+10ul0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188128

On unpartnered men:  I do not think that Slughorn, Snape, Dumbledore, Fudge, Hagrid, Voldemort, Pettigrew, Sirius Black, etc., are living lives that JKR would want her readers to emulate.  I'd say the lack of partners in their lives, or even close friends, isolates them and limits their worldviews.  The unattached women: McGonagall, Umbridge, Skeeter, Trelawney... they may be admirable for their professions, but as people, they are not exactly welcoming or even well-balanced.  I'm all for living the solo life, but I think JKR is mostly for marriage, family and children.  The perversion of that ideal, putting another above it, doomed the Gaunts and Crouches, and Bellatrix Lestrange.  The preservation of that ideal ultimately saved the Malfoys and the Dursleys.  Marriage and children are the happy and hopeful endings for the heroes, and even Draco.  While it was great to have many unpartnered people in the story, they were also more likely to die than those in happy families.

On the preservation of the Dursleys: I think they were placed under wraps in case the Seven Potters plan failed and they needed to be called back to keep the so-called blood protection in place.  Once it was clear the Seven Potters plan worked, they were memory-charmed just like the Grangers and sent on their merry way.  This would be more efficient than having Order members babysit Muggle adults (not that those Order members would serve any better or more logical function in the story).

We've seen wizards violate human rights by wiping Muggle minds or keeping them in the dark whenever they felt like it.  Wizards built their whole society on hiding and lying about who they were, after all.  I don't think the Order, or Hermione, were any different, even when they convinced themselves were serving as Muggle protectors -- especially Hermione, who appointed herself protector of the House-Elves and acted against their wishes, who assumed she knew best about Centaurs and wanted to use them for her own ends, who Confunded McClaggen to help her would-be boyfriend.  But, she'd never arrogantly assume she knew better than the parents who accepted her all along, who she'd lied to in the past for her convenience (ski trip)?  She'd never wipe their minds just to get them off hers?  Just because she'd gotten away with violating the rights of others for so long didn't mean she'd do that to her parents, right?

On female/male relations in HP: Generally, it is the stereotypical role of women to nurture physically and emotionally, to seek to establish and maintain relationships, and to subsume their desires in doing so.  Generally, it is the stereotypical role of men to secure food and shelter, to represent a group to the larger world, and to lead that group or follow a greater calling.  In other words, a woman's world is small and internally-focused, while a man's is large and externally-focused.  Generally, the HP books follow these stereotypical roles, except for the tip of the hat to the fact that women actually do everything. Hermione, as others have pointed out, not only tried to maintain harmony and run social interference for the Trio, advising Harry and Ginny on matters of the heart, and in DH providing physical nurturing by washing the underwear and obtaining and cooking almost all the food, but she usurped the boy's protective roles by pitching the tents, casting the spells, strategizing and taking action.  The thing is, her personal campaigns (House-Elves, Centaurs, McClaggen) were misguided and made things worse for everyone.  Better for her, in general and in DH especially, to give her heart, her mind, and her initiative to Harry Potter -- just as Umbridge followed Crouch, Lestrange worshipped Voldemort, and McGongall demurred to Dumbledore and His Plan.  It is the men who make the ultimate decisions and lead, while it is the women who support the men and sustain relationships, fulfilling the usual roles for the sexes.

lealess




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 20:10:25 2009
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris22)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:10:25 -0000
Subject: Partnering in the HP books (was Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse)
In-Reply-To: <636891.31604.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hbfsnh+ekl6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188129


Christy:

Since you use Sirius as an example, I will remind all of us that Sirius is focused on protecting Harry when he escapes prison in POA (a bit more important than meeting a woman) and on the run throughout GOF. For all we know he is sowing some pent-up wild oats off page before he returns to Hogwarts to be near Harry during the tournament (or maybe not, maybe he's too focus on remaining "under the radar" to risk it). Throughout OOTP he was in hiding. Of the women we see come in and out of Grimwald Place, most are not appropriate matches for him. (Molly is married, Fleur is with Bill, Tonks is his cousin, Minerva is much older, Ginny and Hermione are -- well way too inappropriate to even think about). As for other order members we know little or nothing about, for all we know he might have had a fling or two.  

In any case, what we speculate about what happens off page is just that -- speculation. It can be fun to speculate, but it doesn't make what we speculate true, no matter how well constructed our arguments  are. And, my former college English professors would have torn up some of those arguments because of the amount of speculation on which they are based. I see some posts (and not necessarily the one I include here -- I use it only to open the door to my own opinions) that I think come dangerously close to trying to make truths out of little to no canon-based fact.

sartoris22:

I don't know. Perhaps a postmodernist English professor would find such speculation valid, employing a deconstructive absence/ presence reading of the texts. No matter. You make an interesting point. However, some of your arguments are speculation, too, such as "for all we know [Sirius] is sowing some pent-up wild oats off page before he returns to Hogwarts to be near Harry during the tournament" and "[a]s for other order members we know little or nothing about, for all we know he might have had a fling or two."  I base my comments on what I know from the text. I think it less speculative to think Sirius is alone because we never see or hear about any relationships Sirius has with women.  Of course, Sirius and others could have partners, even though the texts don't reveal this information.  So I amend my statement, thus: there are many characters in the novel with unknown relationship status, which, in my opinion,  seems to deemphasize the importance of partnering in the wizard world.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 20:14:46 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:14:46 -0000
Subject: The unattached, the Dursleys, the role of women
In-Reply-To: <hbfqbl+10ul0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbfsvm+qevs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188130



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" <lealess at ...> wrote:
>
> On unpartnered men:  I do not think that Slughorn, Snape, Dumbledore, Fudge, Hagrid, Voldemort, Pettigrew, Sirius Black, etc., are living lives that JKR would want her readers to emulate.  I'd say the lack of partners in their lives, or even close friends, isolates them and limits their worldviews.

Alla:

Okay, but where in the books JKR says that? That the reason why all those men at some point of his lives do idiotic things is because they have no spouses?

Where does she say that had Fudge had a spouse for example he would be any less of an asshole and more willing to listen? Where does she say that had Slughorn had a spouse (or partner) he would change his patterns of picking and teaching his favorite students?

And what exactly is so limiting in Hagrid's worldview that spouse would help to expand? Note, I am not saying that Hagrid did not do stupid things, quite the contrary, I just do not see how spouse or partner would have changed it. Seems to me that Hagrid's mistakes are due to his personality first and foremost. IMO of course.

Oh and even though it was in the interview, but in her mind Charlie Weasley never married, so what is so very bad or limiting about him?

Lealess:
The unattached women: McGonagall, Umbridge, Skeeter, Trelawney... they may be admirable for their professions, but as people, they are not exactly welcoming or even well-balanced.  

Alla:

I just disagree about Mcgonagall being not well-balanced.

Lealess:
I'm all for living the solo life, but I think JKR is mostly for marriage, family and children. <SNIP>

Alla:

I agree that it is her ideal, I however disagree that she imposes her ideal on her characters and says that anybody who never married is a lacking person, I think to her if person is mostly a negative character  it is due to many other reasons.

Lealess:
> On the preservation of the Dursleys: I think they were placed under wraps in case the Seven Potters plan failed and they needed to be called back to keep the so-called blood protection in place.  Once it was clear the Seven Potters plan worked, they were memory-charmed just like the Grangers and sent on their merry way.  This would be more efficient than having Order members babysit Muggle adults (not that those Order members would serve any better or more logical function in the story).


Alla:

That's a speculation, right? Last time we see Dursleys they are placed under guard, I respect your opinion about what happened next, I however do not see a support for it in canon.



Lealess:
<SNIP> But, she'd never arrogantly assume she knew better than the parents who accepted her all along, who she'd lied to in the past for her convenience (ski trip)?  

Alla:

Yep, she lied to her parents about ski trip, she also OMG went against their wishes and changed her teeth to look better. I still feel that it is incomparable to her doing this to her parents without their consent.

Lealess:
She'd never wipe their minds just to get them off hers? <SNIP>

Alla:

I will never say never of course, but however when the other alternative is *to save their lives and to save Hermione's*, yes to me it is more reasonable than to say she did it "just to get them off hers*  IMO of course.

JMO,

Alla




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 20:39:29 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:39:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Partnering in the HP books (was Re: Bigotry in the
 Potterverse)
In-Reply-To: <31877484.1255896830486.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <31877484.1255896830486.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADB7D01.5010000@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188131


> sartoris22:
>
> I don't know. Perhaps a postmodernist English professor would find such speculation valid, employing a deconstructive absence/ presence reading of the texts. No matter. You make an interesting point. However, some of your arguments are speculation, too, such as "for all we know [Sirius] is sowing some pent-up wild oats off page before he returns to Hogwarts to be near Harry during the tournament"...

rick:

I really didn't expect him to escape with Ms. Azkerban 1989 in tow.  
Besides, he could become a dog or as, my Mother In Law told my wife, 
"Men are like dogs, they're born knowin' how." 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 20:41:14 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:41:14 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <27511312.1255884399670.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <27511312.1255884399670.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADB7D6A.1060807@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188132


> artoris22:
>
> In a previous post, I  reveal my nationality, American, and cite exampes of the many non-academic unmarried males in the novels. Even if one excludes the teachers, there are a considerable number of seemingly unpartnered people, particularly males, in the books. I cited the example of Sirius, a man who has been in prison over ten years but doesn't seem compelled or pressured to get a woman.
>   
rick:
Well, too much detail just gums up the narrative. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Sun Oct 18 20:46:03 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:46:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her
 parents
In-Reply-To: <24666758.1255879794293.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <24666758.1255879794293.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADB7E8B.3010402@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188133


> Magpie:
> But she just gave canon that indicated Hermione is doing the cooking and washing up and gathering food. That you can come up with a reason besides "they made her do it because she's a girl" or pointing out Ron and Harry doing other things doesn't change that. Whether or not one finds it sexist, the girl's mostly doing the cooking and washing up.
>   
rick:
But you've got to take the canon as a whole, not keep twisting a single 
instance into some PC argument. 

> Magpie:
> Of course, the Grangers are never in any actual danger to begin with (to answer Carol's question about how the movie would handle it, but guess is they'll ignore it since it never had to be there to begin with). The Grangers being memory charmed doesn't prevent them from being tortured or from being sitting ducks. It just makes them even more ignorant than they already were--which was pretty ignorant. 
>   
rick:
apparently they were in danger until Hg performed the memory charm and 
moved them.  Surely you don't think finding and torturing the Grangers 
wouldn't drive The Trio out of hiding to save them?

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 20:53:54 2009
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris22)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:53:54 -0000
Subject: The unattached, the Dursleys, the role of women
In-Reply-To: <hbfqbl+10ul0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbfv92+71s5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188134

lealess:

On unpartnered men: I do not think that Slughorn, Snape, Dumbledore, Fudge, Hagrid, Voldemort, Pettigrew, Sirius Black, etc., are living lives that JKR would want her readers to emulate. I'd say the lack of partners in their lives, or even close friends, isolates them and limits their worldviews. The unattached women: McGonagall, Umbridge, Skeeter, Trelawney... they may be admirable for their professions, but as people, they are not exactly welcoming or even well-balanced. I'm all for living the solo life, but I think JKR is mostly for marriage, family and children. The perversion of that ideal, putting another above it, doomed the Gaunts and Crouches, and Bellatrix Lestrange. The preservation of that ideal ultimately saved the Malfoys and the Dursleys. Marriage and children are the happy and hopeful endings for the heroes, and even Draco. While it was great to have many unpartnered people in the story, they were also more likely to die than those in happy families.

sartoris22:

You make a good point about the novel championing marriage and children, but one could argue that love and connection doom characters such as Snape, Tonks, Dobby, Sirius, Lily, and James. Thus, love or marriage or children aren't without sacrifice, which can lead to destruction. Even Harry "dies' for love, but is ultimately resurrected. Yes, love, marriage, and children can make one happy, but they don't make one safe. In fact, they can expose one to danger. In the Potter world, everything, it seems, comes with a price, which lends a certain equality to the unpartnered versus partnered life. 







From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 21:06:44 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:06:44 -0000
Subject: The unattached, the Dursleys, the role of women
In-Reply-To: <hbfqbl+10ul0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbg014+10kqv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188135

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" <lealess at ...> wrote:

> On unpartnered men:  I do not think that Slughorn, Snape, 
> Dumbledore, Fudge, Hagrid, Voldemort, Pettigrew, Sirius 
> Black, etc., are living lives that JKR would want her 
> readers to emulate.


zanooda:

But Fudge *is* married, or at least was at some time :-). Barty Crouch mentions Mrs.Fudge in "The Madness of Mr.Crouch"(GoF, p.555). OK, Crouch was delirious at that point, but I still think that Mrs.Fudge is real... :-).  




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 18 21:22:39 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:22:39 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hbf80v+p4s3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbg0uv+3tim@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188136

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> Not Jell-O. And I say that because the American edition 
> includes Jell-O. Is there a gelatin based item on the 
> list in the British edition? 


zanooda:

It is just "jelly" in the British edition :-).




From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Oct 18 21:32:40 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:32:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding
 Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <4ADAFAAA.3070508@gmail.com>
References: <20791853.1255825919912.JavaMail.root@n11> <4ADAFAAA.3070508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ADB8978.6070907@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188137

rick:
> It's not the Granger's world, they didn't grow up with terror of the 
> first rise of TDL to power.  In the Granger circles--well educated 
> professionals--you don't really let go of your kids until after 
> university, preferably after graduate school, say around 24. 
>
> It is actually amazing, when you think on it, that they'd let Hg go to 
> Hogwarts at all.  When compared to the Granger's schooling, a Hogwarts 
> training is more trade school than traditional education. 

Bart:
    In many countries (including Great Britain, I believe), trade 
schools are far more than they are in the United States (although the 
United States has some notable exceptions, like the Culinary Institutes 
of America). In Europe, trade schools are more than learning the basic 
skills to start at the bottom and stay there; they learn every aspect of 
the trade as a career, from the bottom level work to running a business 
dedicated to the trade (for example, the CIA in the U.S. teaches every 
task in the kitchen, waiting tables, and everything in between up to and 
including owning and running a restaurant). America has a conceit that 
anything short of a liberal arts college or an engineering school is for 
those who are too stupid to make it elsewhere, but I do not believe that 
is the attitude that JKR grew up with.

    Bart



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 19 01:17:39 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 01:17:39 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <4ADB7E8B.3010402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbgenj+d40s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188138


> > Magpie:
> > But she just gave canon that indicated Hermione is doing the cooking and washing up and gathering food. That you can come up with a reason besides "they made her do it because she's a girl" or pointing out Ron and Harry doing other things doesn't change that. Whether or not one finds it sexist, the girl's mostly doing the cooking and washing up.
> >   
> rick:
> But you've got to take the canon as a whole, not keep twisting a single 
> instance into some PC argument. 

Magpie:
I am taking canon as a whole. And here we were talking about a specific thing. Can I not remember that on the camping trip with two girls and a boy the girl was described as doing most of the washing up and cooking without including a defense of how she's also a great student and planner so it doesn't really count in order to not be making a p.c. argument? I thought I was making a canon point. What requires the p.c. argument and what is that argument?

 
> > Magpie:
> > Of course, the Grangers are never in any actual danger to begin with (to answer Carol's question about how the movie would handle it, but guess is they'll ignore it since it never had to be there to begin with). The Grangers being memory charmed doesn't prevent them from being tortured or from being sitting ducks. It just makes them even more ignorant than they already were--which was pretty ignorant. 
> >   
> rick:
> apparently they were in danger until Hg performed the memory charm and 
> moved them.  Surely you don't think finding and torturing the Grangers 
> wouldn't drive The Trio out of hiding to save them?

Magpie:
Voldemort and the DEs weren't looking for them, so they weren't in danger. But that said, a memory charm doesn't make them immune from torture. As far as I can tell all it did was make them go to Australia, which they could have done with their own memories. 

-m




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct 19 01:28:52 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 01:28:52 -0000
Subject: The Rise and Fall of LV...(was Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb0pgk+nqsp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbgfck+b2f3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188139


>
> Joey:
> 
> I'm curious to know which ones. Would you please share those names?

Potioncat:
Well, I didn't think of Cedric for the good guys, but as it was, I could have made a list of many more than 10. And I didn't think of Pheneas Nigellus Black either, but then, he's a portrait.

For the Villain list I cheated. I forgot Dolohov, but I couldn't leave him off so I put back on him on my list.(At least I think I did) I didn't think of Lockhart or the Gaunts, and they're pretty bad. I didn't think of Nagini, and she is really creepy.

I was surprised that  Snape, DD and Hermione ended up on both lists. 

DD and Hermione are supposed to be the two characters who speak for JKR. Both of them seem to think they know what's best for others and they have the right to take actions "for the greater good." The Hermione thread that is running now made me realize how much these 2 characters have in common. Herminone, just like young DD, could become very dangerous.



> SeanM:
> I disagree about Salazar Slytherin. He lived a thousand
> years before Voldemort and there is a strong chance that
> his thoughts and philosophy may have been distorted over
> time and that he was not a forerunner of Voldemort. He may
> have merely opposed muggleborns because he was worried
> about the threat the muggle relatives of muggleborns posed
> to the school. The Basilisk may have been created to protect
> the school rather then to murder students. Besides he was
> one of the founders of the school and he had once been good
> friends with Godric Gryffindor so he must not have been all
>bad.

Potioncat:
That's an interesting point of view. I was going to argue that he left a dangerous beast at Hogwarts that could only be controlled by a Parselmouth. I don't see how it could be a defense. Who would bring a beast into a school? But then, DD had both a three-headed dog and a troll inside the castle. So maybe your point has some validity.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 02:17:02 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:17:02 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hb71p4+g600@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbgi6u+m5dm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188140



> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I know and disagree with this one, heh. Snape may have teaching Harry, or he may have taking the possibility to engage his abusive tendencies towards the boy whom he hated till he died. <snip>

Carol responds:

Snape could easily have cursed Harry, even Crucio'd him, but instead he parries Harry's spells with with words that can only mean "You'll never beat me in a duel until you learn to use nonverbal spells and learn Occlumency." Harry, of course, is too angry and hates Snape too much to learn the lesson. Only at the end of the duel, after Harry taunts him one time too many, does he use a Stinging Hex or something similar to punish his insolence and ingratitude as well as Disarm him.

Carol, who thinks that under the circumstances Snape, who *saves* Harry from a Crucio and gets the DEs safely away from him, showed remarkable restraing




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct 19 02:20:03 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:20:03 -0000
Subject: The unattached, the Dursleys, the role of women
In-Reply-To: <hbg014+10kqv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbgicj+56g3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188141

 
> zanooda:
> 
> But Fudge *is* married, or at least was at some time :-). Barty Crouch mentions Mrs.Fudge in "The Madness of Mr.Crouch"(GoF, p.555). OK, Crouch was delirious at that point, but I still think that Mrs.Fudge is real... :-).

Potioncat:
We see students at Hogwarts from single parent families, and blended families. Several characters lost partners during the war with LV or through illness/accidents. There are many that we just don't know the status. I think we see a range of styles.

McGonagall is listed as being single by several posters, but I don't think we know that. Harry never sees her with anyone he knows to be a partner, but that's because he doesn't know. Slughorn is unattached now, but we don't know if that was always the case.

There's no reason for JKR to mention whether or not every character has a partner. If she had to account for all partners, she'd kill them off as fast as un-needed parents. Come to think of it, Hermione was probably protecting her parents from JKR, not LV---having noticed how easily parents fell prey to unspecified illness and premature old age.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 02:21:28 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:21:28 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry WAS: Hermione and her parents redux
In-Reply-To: <hbgi6u+m5dm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbgif8+10tsc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188142



> > Alla:
> > 
> > Yes, I know and disagree with this one, heh. Snape may have teaching Harry, or he may have taking the possibility to engage his abusive tendencies towards the boy whom he hated till he died. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Snape could easily have cursed Harry, even Crucio'd him, but instead he parries Harry's spells with with words that can only mean "You'll never beat me in a duel until you learn to use nonverbal spells and learn Occlumency." Harry, of course, is too angry and hates Snape too much to learn the lesson. Only at the end of the duel, after Harry taunts him one time too many, does he use a Stinging Hex or something similar to punish his insolence and ingratitude as well as Disarm him.


Alla:

One can of course argue that the very **thought** of supposedly teaching a lesson to the teenager striken with grief over death of his mentor is abusive, sadistic and totally totally disgusting.

One can also argue that the thought of **punishing** this teenager when he is in such horrible pain is ten times more sadistic.


> 
> Carol, who thinks that under the circumstances Snape, who *saves* Harry from a Crucio and gets the DEs safely away from him, showed remarkable restraing
>

Alla,

who does not think that.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 02:40:35 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:40:35 -0000
Subject: Why Not a Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0910151154l2a63f161ld3102ac6a549adec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbgjj3+dhl3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188143



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova <sweenlit at ...> wrote:
>
> Lynda:
> A simple change of location would keep the Dursleys away from office and school. It seems to me that was the point. Get them out of danger. And I'm sure they could locate a tv fairly quickly if one weren't provided.
> 
> Lynda
>
Carol responds:
You snipped the post you're responding to, but I'm assuming that it's mine. They're not only staying away from the office and school, but they'll be in a Wizarding house with no electricity or cable or satellite dish to get TV reception, no telephone, and no wireless Internet even if Dudley brought a laptop. Maybe they'll have books of magic and an occasional Daily Prophet to read and can listen to Celestina Warbeck or the Weird Sisters on the Wizarding wireless, but they're going to be bored, bored, bored in my opinion, especially Dudley. ("I'm sure we shall become very good friends," says Dedalus Diggle optimistically, but I think he's sadly mistaken. the Dursleys will have nothing to do except argue--unless Hestia lets Petunia use her house-cleaning skills, but what will Vernon and Dudley do?

And I can just imagine their reaction when they get home to their house, which will be either vandalized or sold to someone else. Their abandoned car will have been confiscated, no doubt, by the Muggle police. At least the Grangers will have something to do in Australia and can probably find a house and a new dental practice in Australia. The Dursleys have lost everything except a few possessions and each other. (Probably serves them right, but that's beside the point.)

Carol, who doubts very much that Dudley is watching TV or playing video games (possibly Dedalus could summon him a punching bag)




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Oct 19 04:07:04 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 00:07:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The unattached, the Dursleys, the role of
 women
In-Reply-To: <hbgicj+56g3@eGroups.com>
References: <hbgicj+56g3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4ADBE5E8.30301@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188144

potioncat wrote:
> McGonagall is listed as being single by several posters, but I don't think we know that. Harry never sees her with anyone he knows to be a partner, but that's because he doesn't know. Slughorn is unattached now, but we don't know if that was always the case.
>   

Bart:
    I was thinking the same thing. There was a prominent professor at 
Columbia University in New York, Dr. Chien-Shiung Wu, who was married to 
Luke Chia-Liu Yuan, another prominent physicist who spent most of his 
time in high energy labs in Switzerland and Taiwan. Somehow, they 
managed to get together enough to have a son. It could very well be that 
McGonagall was married to a man who did not live with her during the 
school year.

    I recall a few years back, there was some attempt to figure out the 
amount of classroom time the professors at Hogwarts spent; one problem 
was figuring out the number of students at Hogwarts (I seeem to recall 
that it was about 250). With all these uncoupled wizards and witches, 
one does not need to wonder why the wizard population is so small.

    Bart



From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 09:43:50 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 05:43:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her
 parents
In-Reply-To: <322649.1255915097201.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <322649.1255915097201.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADC34D6.2030304@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188145


> Magpie:
> Voldemort and the DEs weren't looking for them, so they weren't in danger. But that said, a memory charm doesn't make them immune from torture. As far as I can tell all it did was make them go to Australia, which they could have done with their own memories. 
>   
That should read, so they weren't in danger YET.  Just like the Weasleys 
had to go into hiding after it discovered Ron was with HP, so too would 
the Grangers.  Hg could foresee the issue and acted preemptively.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 09:54:52 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 05:54:52 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding
 Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <25688561.1255901688260.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <20791853.1255825919912.JavaMail.root@n11>
 <4ADAFAAA.3070508@gmail.com> <25688561.1255901688260.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADC376C.1030803@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188146


> rick:
>   
>> When compared to the Granger's schooling, a Hogwarts 
>> training is more trade school than traditional education. 
>>     
>
> Bart:
>     In many countries (including Great Britain, I believe), trade 
> schools are far more than they are in the United States (although the 
> United States has some notable exceptions, like the Culinary Institutes 
> of America). In Europe, trade schools are more than learning the basic 
> skills to start at the bottom and stay there; they learn every aspect of 
> the trade as a career, from the bottom level work to running a business 
> dedicated to the trade (for example, the CIA in the U.S. teaches every 
> task in the kitchen, waiting tables, and everything in between up to and 
> including owning and running a restaurant). America has a conceit that 
> anything short of a liberal arts college or an engineering school is for 
> those who are too stupid to make it elsewhere, but I do not believe that 
> is the attitude that JKR grew up with.
>
>     Bart
>
>   

I think the key phrase is "When compared to the Granger's schooling...." 
And compared to the US public schools or UK Comprehensive education, a 
magical education seems lacking in even the practical skills of basic 
mathematics, reading/writing/research, etc.  That make an educated 
person and well rounded citizen.

On the whole, you're probably right about the US system, but even on a 
K-12 basis, this education seems lacking in important skills.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct 19 11:36:36 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:36:36 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry WAS: Hermione and her parents redux
In-Reply-To: <hbgif8+10tsc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbhj04+10nl7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188147

 
> Alla:
> 
> One can of course argue that the very **thought** of supposedly teaching a lesson to the teenager striken with grief over death of his mentor is abusive, sadistic and totally totally disgusting.
> 
> One can also argue that the thought of **punishing** this teenager when he is in such horrible pain is ten times more sadistic.

Potioncat:
In this case, does the phrase "teaching a lesson to" mean, instructing or punishing. Because that wording can go either way. I'm just not sure if you're saying that even teaching Harry would be abusive. I would agree if say, after DD had fallen off the tower Professor Snape said, "Get to class, you'll be late."

But Snape and Harry were in battle, Snape was defending himself while trying to keep his cover, and it was his only opportunity to prepare Harry to face LV.

Besides, I think Snape was also stricken with grief, and had the extra burdens of not being able to express it, and having caused the death.







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 13:37:49 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:37:49 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry WAS: Hermione and her parents redux
In-Reply-To: <hbhj04+10nl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbhq3d+gu4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188148


> Alla:
> > 
> > One can of course argue that the very **thought** of supposedly teaching a lesson to the teenager stricken with grief over death of his mentor is abusive, sadistic and totally totally disgusting.
> > 
> > One can also argue that the thought of **punishing** this teenager when he is in such horrible pain is ten times more sadistic.
> 
> Potioncat:
> In this case, does the phrase "teaching a lesson to" mean, instructing or punishing. Because that wording can go either way. I'm just not sure if you're saying that even teaching Harry would be abusive. I would agree if say, after DD had fallen off the tower Professor Snape said, "Get to class, you'll be late."
> 
> But Snape and Harry were in battle, Snape was defending himself while trying to keep his cover, and it was his only opportunity to prepare Harry to face LV.
> 
> Besides, I think Snape was also stricken with grief, and had the extra burdens of not being able to express it, and having caused the death.
>

 Alla:
Well, first of all let me be clear that I wrote the above post based on hypothetical premise that I agree that what Snape was doing is teaching Harry. I really do not accept said premise, but if I were agree with it for the sake of the argument, yes I do think that it was sadistic.

Let me elaborate on both parts. See, after DH revelations I tend to agree with you that Snape likely was in a great deal of pain after killing Dumbledore, since this is not something that he wanted to do. But I do not think that you (hypothetical you) can have it both ways here ? either Snape WAS in a great deal of pain and he was in no mood to think of teaching Harry or he was not in any sort of pain and then if he decided to teach Harry something, I thought he really ought to teach Harry something that Harry really needed and without causing him additional pain.

Does that make sense? I tend to believe that Snape was in a pain and he was lashing out at Harry and wanted him to be in pain too, funnily I tend to be more forgiving in this situation, than if what Snape was doing was calculatingly taunting Harry and then cursing him.

And OMG especially if what Carol postulated that Snape was "punishing Harry's insolence and ingratitude", that to me is of course sadistic with capital S. I mean, seriously, if Snape is in a state of mind to be calculating enough to punish Harry for something, surely he would understand that there could be no insolence and ingratitude, because Harry would not know why he is supposed to feel gratitude. Gee, Snape, you killed Dumbledore, thank you so much, you murderer and then you so graciously stopped the curse of another DE because you wanted me to be a present for your Lord. Oh yeah, that is a reason to be grateful, NOT in my mind.

So, if you are interested to know how I would like Snape to behave, if he was somewhat rational and to show that he is not sadistic, I will tell you. :) I would like him to not engage, just block Harry's curses if it is necessary to do so for him to escape, but certainly do not talk to Harry back and most certainly not cursing him back.  And maybe then it will be a lesson for Harry how to do a job one does not want to do and not hurt innocents in progress of it, or something like that.

And of course we all know how much Harry "needed" Occlumency after all, that is not at all, he won based on his ability to love and sacrifice himself for others, not because he could close his mind, that to me also tells that Snape had no clue what Harry needed to be taught.

JMO,

Alla






From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Oct 19 14:13:31 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:13:31 -0400
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <4ADC376C.1030803@gmail.com>
References: <20791853.1255825919912.JavaMail.root@n11> <4ADAFAAA.3070508@gmail.com> <25688561.1255901688260.JavaMail.root@n11> <4ADC376C.1030803@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ADC740B.9070207@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188149

rick:
rick:
>> I think the key phrase is "When compared to the Granger's schooling...." 
>> And compared to the US public schools or UK Comprehensive education, a 
>> magical education seems lacking in even the practical skills of basic 
>> mathematics, reading/writing/research, etc.  That make an educated 
>> person and well rounded citizen.
>>
>> On the whole, you're probably right about the US system, but even on a 
>> K-12 basis, this education seems lacking in important skills.
>>     

Bart:
    There's a piece that has been passed around the Internet for a few 
years, a purported 8th grade final examination from 1895. Although most 
kids, or even adults, would have a lot of problems with that exam, a 
major reason why (as pointed out by Snopes 
<http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp>) is that many of 
the questions in the exam have far less or even no relevance to life in 
21st century America (or Great Britain).

    Similarly, the Wizarding World, while occupying some of the same 
space as the Muggle world, has been separated from it. Information that 
is considered important to Muggles is far less relevant in the Wizarding 
World. Now, it is true that students at Hogwarts are expected to have 
basic proficiency in certain areas, such as reading, writing, some basic 
arithmetic, and research skills (and one wonders how they get this, 
other than those who had been attending Muggle schools), but much 
information that is important to Muggles is just irrelevant to Wizards. 
For example, the history of rule of law and democracy in Great Britain 
is very important to create a well-rounded citizen; to member of the 
Wizarding World, it is probably a level of importance as knowledge of 
the detailed history of the Indian caste system is in Great Britain. 
Also, recall that we see things mostly through the eyes of Harry, who is 
interested in practical applications of magic, but has little use for 
theory. OWLS also appear to be based on practice rather than theory; it 
is really only in Slughorn's class in HBP that we get a peek at the sort 
of theoretical knowledge the students get. We are as in the dark as 
Harry is when trying to find an ingredient that will allow antidotes to 
multiple poisons work together, much as a more modern advanced high 
school chemistry student would figure out which catalyst will enable a 
certain chemical reaction to occur. But the fact that Harry appears 
clueless belies the fact that there ARE methodologies to figure these 
things out.

    In the New York area, before the Europeans came, the people had a 
lifestyle which considered of an annual trek from one food source to the 
next. It required what would be, by European standards, a very sparse 
population in which to work, but work, it did; although the people had 
to make their living circumstances very portable, the population 
remained stable, and the workload was very light; people had a lot of 
leisure time that was spent in creative pursuits, and war was rare, and 
most of what we consider to be crimes were almost non-existent, due to 
lack of motives.

    Now, this lifestyle certainly had its own problems; it was very 
sensitive to global climate change (such as the little Ice Age in the 
14th century), and also, due to reasons outside the relevance of this, 
the population was almost disease-free; European diseases virtually 
wiped them out long before European weapons were used on the remnants.

    The people of the Wizarding World seem much like this. Many of the 
careers are more avocations than vocations. Consider the Weasley's, a 
"poor" family. Although they can't buy many luxuries, they have a 
spacious house with enough land for the kids to play Quidditch, Molly 
doesn't have to earn a salary to make ends meet, there's plenty to eat, 
and, to all accounts, the food is good, and it seems the worst thing 
they have to deal with is buying things second hand rather than new, and 
Arthur works at a job he loves (and it has been stated he could earn 
more if he was willing to switch to a less enjoyable job).

    Now, there is a dichotomy between the Potterverse and the world in 
which the reader lives. Although the WW in the Potterverse is supposed 
to be secret, there does seem to be some crossover between the 
Muggleverse and the WW (we do not see, for example, the problems 
involved in a mixed marriage; from a WW point of view, a Muggle spouse 
is severely handicapped). We don't know how Hermione's parents learned 
about the WW. However, I would suspect that the attitude of Muggle 
parents in finding out that their children are going to be welcome in 
the WW is similar to what their attitude would be if they found out that 
their child was member of the aristocracy, and was offered a position 
and education befitting a member.

    Bart


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 19 14:33:02 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:33:02 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <4ADC34D6.2030304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbhtau+1sg8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188150

> > Magpie:
> > Voldemort and the DEs weren't looking for them, so they weren't in danger. But that said, a memory charm doesn't make them immune from torture. As far as I can tell all it did was make them go to Australia, which they could have done with their own memories. 
> >   
> That should read, so they weren't in danger YET.  Just like the Weasleys 
> had to go into hiding after it discovered Ron was with HP, so too would 
> the Grangers.  Hg could foresee the issue and acted preemptively.
> -- 

Magpie:
I meant that we see the whole year, and there's no story about Voldemort searching out the Muggle Grangers. But even so, the logical fear that they might be in danger doesn't imo justify the memory charm. You can go into hiding without brain damage.

-m




From sweenlit at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 14:42:26 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:42:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her 
	parents
In-Reply-To: <4ADC34D6.2030304@gmail.com>
References: <322649.1255915097201.JavaMail.root@n11>
	 <4ADC34D6.2030304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0910190742s34d1dcfap26979da9a5d7a028@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188151

Lynda:

It seems a little shortsighted to say that simply because Voldemort had not
yet turned his eyes toward the Muggle families of wizards and witches, that
he would not in the future. In fact, from the tone of the last book, he
certainly would and I never doubted that Hermione took the action she did to
protect them. Why would I assign a different motive than the one stated in
the book to her? Voldemort had certainly shown by that time that he was no
friend of muggles and certainly not of muggles who had wizards in their
families.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 19 15:25:05 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:25:05 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0910190742s34d1dcfap26979da9a5d7a028@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbi0ch+qdui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188152

> Lynda:
> 
> It seems a little shortsighted to say that simply because Voldemort had not
> yet turned his eyes toward the Muggle families of wizards and witches, that
> he would not in the future. In fact, from the tone of the last book, he
> certainly would and I never doubted that Hermione took the action she did to
> protect them. Why would I assign a different motive than the one stated in
> the book to her? Voldemort had certainly shown by that time that he was no
> friend of muggles and certainly not of muggles who had wizards in their
> families.

Magpie:
I'm not saying that Voldemort couldn't have. I'm saying that in the book--which is the whole story--JKR wasn't going there so I think it was a bad idea to throw in something that's as disturbing to some readers as Hermione memory charming them to explain some big protection that never has any payoff anyway. 

And I didn't actually assign any different motivation to Hermione than she had in the book. She's getting them out of Voldemort's immediate vicinity. (Though in defending her choice people often naturally have to make up other motivations to explain the memory charm, like Hermione protecting Harry and herself in some way by making it harder for Voldemort to crack her parents' minds--even though they don't really know anything anyway.) 

Given the unbroken pattern of the way she deals with her parents on this issue, plus the way memory charms are a running joke when used against Muggles, plus the unlikelihood of any parent agreeing to forget their child forever, I'm left with a big distraction from the story that's obviously not supposed to be. It's not that Hermione had evil designs on her parents. It's that she, like all Wizards, doesn't think of them as equals enough to worry about this being a violation.

We could have been told the Grangers went to Australia because Hermione asked them. Or that she placed some kind of charm on them and hoped it would be enough. All of those things would have been enough storywise since JKR was never planning any attack on the Grangers. Instead we got one last muddle-headed Muggle joke at the Grangers' expense where we're supposed to sympathize with Hermione over the idea that if she dies her parents will never regain their memories and so not be able to mourn her. 

-m




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 16:26:18 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:26:18 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <13969258.1255961700196.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <20791853.1255825919912.JavaMail.root@n11>
 <4ADAFAAA.3070508@gmail.com> <25688561.1255901688260.JavaMail.root@n11>
 <4ADC376C.1030803@gmail.com> <13969258.1255961700196.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADC932A.3000305@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188153


> Bart:
>    
>      However, I would suspect that the attitude of Muggle 
> parents in finding out that their children are going to be welcome in 
> the WW is similar to what their attitude would be if they found out that 
> their child was member of the aristocracy, and was offered a position 
> and education befitting a member.
>   

Ah, good.  He came up for air... ;->

First of all, Mudbloods weren't universally welcomed into the wizarding 
community. 

Hg would have made a brilliant academic or attorney in Muggleville.  So, 
through her parent's breeding, education and expectations, Hg could have 
led, I think, a fuller life or more rewarding life on the Muggle side of 
the tracks. 

Granted, there is merit in what you write about the relative ease of 
life for an accomplished wizarding family.  But I suspect it was not as 
rewarding a life as Hg could have had. 

Ron, Ginny, et. al., had no possibility of being fully functioning & 
successful Muggles, despite Ron's driver's license. HP fled that life.  
But Hg could have chosen either. 

It's all speculation, of course. 
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Oct 19 16:34:16 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:34:16 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbde54+qdf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbi4e8+s822@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188154

 
> Montavilla47:
> 
> While I think Pippin and Joey make good arguments, I have to 
> agree with Kemper.  It is definitely in character for Hermione to
> act for others without bothering to consult them.
> 
> It's also a bit illogical for her to memory charm her parents
> unless it was *without* consent.  If they were willing to move to
> Australia in the first place, then they could just as easily pretend
> to be Wendell and Monica Wilkins as be charmed into believing 
> that they are.  

Pippin:
The Grangers are dentists, not actors. And even if they were actors, they'd still have to remain in exile and in hiding knowing that terrible things were happening at home and their daughter was in danger. Sirius couldn't stand it in the end, why should the Grangers think they could?

Odysseus knew he wouldn't be able to resist the Sirens, however strong his resolve, so he had himself tied to the mast of his ship. I see the Grangers' situation as similar. They know that that the best thing they can do to defend Hermione is stay safe themselves. They know they might not be strong enough or skilled enough to do it on their own. Why wouldn't they, like Odysseus, temporarily give up some of their freedom for protection?

There's no need to make the magic difficult to reverse if it's  hard to detect. The Grangers safety will depend on the Death Eaters not finding them in the first place.

They might be more vulnerable to a blind search than they would be if they were consciously in hiding. But  Voldemort's not going to put their image on every milk carton in the Potterverse. As we saw with Sirius, that kind of search generates thousands of false leads and you'd need an army to follow up on them.  Voldemort doesn't seem to have those kinds of resources as yet. Usually when he wants to find someone, he uses spies, informants and spells.
  

Montavilla:
> 
> The only people it will help would be Hermione and Harry--and
> that's only if she's told her parents any information vital to what
> she and Harry are up to now. 

Pippin:
That was Sirius's mistake. He didn't think that personal information would be useful to Voldemort either. But Voldemort is an expert at psychological warfare. Anything that helps him predict how Harry and Hermione might react would be a danger in his hands.


Montavilla:
> (Although, I have to question whether a memory charm cast
> by a young witch who "only knows the theory" would be strong
> enough to withstand the magic of the Death Eaters in retrieving
> memories.)

Pippin:
According to JKR, what Hermione did to the Death Eaters was different than the magic she used on her parents. We do see different ways of hiding memories in canon. Snape puts some in the Pensieve, Slughorn disguises them -- which, BTW, disposes of the argument that modifying memories is not something wizards would voluntarily do to themselves.

In any case, that has no bearing on the Grangers' decision. They have no way of assessing Hermione's skills beyond knowing that she gets top marks at school. They'd still have to trust her judgment  if she recommended that another wizard do the job. As far as consulting older, wiser wizards, it was the oldest, wisest wizard that left the matter in Hermione's hands.  

The Grangers must either trust their daughter, whom they know is considered a knowledgeable adult in her own world,  or not. I can't prove that they'd trust her, of course. But if I had a wizard child I couldn't trust, I'd be in Australia already :)

Pippin





From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Oct 19 16:45:16 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:45:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Harry WAS: Hermione and her parents
 redux
In-Reply-To: <hbhq3d+gu4l@eGroups.com>
References: <hbhq3d+gu4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4ADC979C.3030508@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188155

Alla:
> And of course we all know how much Harry "needed" Occlumency after all, that is not at all, he won based on his ability to love and sacrifice himself for others, not because he could close his mind, that to me also tells that Snape had no clue what Harry needed to be taught.

Bart:
    Just as a reminder, I expressed my opinion that Snape was hitting 
Harry with final lessons during the flight before DH came out.

    Here's my take, where I am of the same opinion. Snape does not like 
Harry, and, frankly, the events of HBP did nothing to change that. He 
sees Harry as taking shortcuts, to the extent of cheating, through 
laziness. Frankly, to a certain extent, Snape was correct; Harry had a 
hell of a lot of both luck and help. It would not surprise me if Snape 
subtly influenced Voldemort not to use the link with Harry, knowing that 
Harry did not have the patience and perseverance  to learn Occlumancy 
(note that Harry only learned his heavily used Accio spell because of 
the constant pressure Hermione put on him). Or, more likely, Occlumancy 
WOULD have helped Harry be able to surprise his opponents, particularly 
Morty, more effectively.

    Snape was extremely angry when he fled Hogwarts. He had to kill 
Dumbledore, something he did not want to do. He had to pretend to be 
with the DE's, with whom he associates the death of his lifelong love, 
while protecting the Hogwarts students. On top of this, he sees how 
little Harry has learned. He's saying, effectively, "You can't even 
challenge ME, and I've given up everything to give you a chance to go up 
against Voldemort! Try to LEARN for a change, you idiot!" Mind you, the 
events which enabled Harry to get the Cup wouldn't have happened if he 
were more competent, but Snape had no way of knowing that.

    Bart



From sweenlit at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 17:24:06 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:24:06 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her 
	parents
In-Reply-To: <hbi0ch+qdui@eGroups.com>
References: <43e41d1e0910190742s34d1dcfap26979da9a5d7a028@mail.gmail.com>
	 <hbi0ch+qdui@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0910191024k375c06e9u6ab3236e938a0ae8@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188156

sistermagpie:

And I didn't actually assign any different motivation to Hermione than she
had in the book. She's getting them out of Voldemort's immediate vicinity.
(Though in defending her choice people often naturally have to make up other
motivations to explain the memory charm, like Hermione protecting Harry and
herself in some way by making it harder for Voldemort to crack her parents'
minds--even though they don't really know anything anyway.)

Lynda:

I don't defend Hermione's choice by making up other motivations. She did
what she did to protect them, short and simple. Other children and other
parents have taken similar actions for the same reasons. And from  reading
the books, Hermione said that she had told her parents quite a lot about
Harry. I therefore believe that she did tell her parents "quite a lot" about
Harry. Enough that she felt they needed to be protected from the possible
danger provided by Voldemort. I'd rather protect my family from possible
harm by removing them from harm's vicinity by whatever means possible than
not take protective action and see them hurt, even if they were five steps
away from something I'm on top of. Five steps is not very far and if I can
keep my family safe, I'll do that. I think Hermione's motivations were the
same.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 19:42:02 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:42:02 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbi4e8+s822@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbifea+ikj2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188157

> Pippin:
> The Grangers are dentists, not actors. And even if they were actors, they'd still have to remain in exile and in hiding knowing that terrible things were happening at home and their daughter was in danger. Sirius couldn't stand it in the end, why should the Grangers think they could?

Kemper now:
Sirius was contained in a house he hated.  He was expected to stay in there without leaving unless given permission by Dumbledore.   The Grangers are in Australia.  A huge country with lots to do.  

Sirius was already a soldier in the war (both 1 and 2).  Hermione is a soldier in the 2nd war; her parents are not.  As Muggles they are already aware of that reality in the world.  As parents, they are expected to be worried about their daughter not to go and find her.  You don't need to be an actor to go into hiding.  Though it might behoove them to do work other than dentistry which they more than likely might not be able to perform anyway as licenses might not transfer to another country.  One British dentist would be very conspicuous to any of Voldemort's spies, two opposite-sexed ones would be even more so regardless of their memories being altered.  I forgot who suggested that a DE might not have the power/skills to break down memories that only TDL could do so, but if Hermione's parents were valuable to TDL then I'm sure he would meet with them personally.


> Pippin
> Odysseus knew he wouldn't be able to resist the Sirens, however strong his resolve, so he had himself tied to the mast of his ship. I see the Grangers' situation as similar. They know that that the best thing they can do to defend Hermione is stay safe themselves. They know they might not be strong enough or skilled enough to do it on their own. Why wouldn't they, like Odysseus, temporarily give up some of their freedom for protection?

Kemper now:
It's a false protection.  And besides, no one human at the immediate time was out to untie Odysseus.  He knew he was safe. 

I'm guessing that the Grangers are at least as intelligent as their daughter and as well read.  Obviously this is speculation, but I believe that they would be able to ask follow-up questions to Hermione's request (which I don't think happened, but for argument's sake...) and realize they didn't need to have their memories altered.  They would concede that hiding is necessary and Australia would be a good idea (based I'm sure on Hermione's research on where English speaking wizards and their communities are in least abundance... which makes sense as it started out as a penal colony and that the first English speaking witches/wizards in Australia would be Muggle born and may have a more open acceptance now of their Muggle/MuggleBorn/HalfBlooded neighbors.)


> Pippin:
> We do see different ways of hiding memories in canon. Snape puts some in the Pensieve, Slughorn disguises them -- which, BTW, disposes of the argument that modifying memories is not something wizards would voluntarily do to themselves.

Kemper now:
Slughorn still *knew* the memory.  He gave an altered memory to Dumbledore.  

I hadn't heard the argument that a wizard would voluntarily alter their own memory to the point of forgetting their original memory.  That doesn't make sense to me, but I suppose that it's possible if you write yourself instructions on what to do... but then that sounds like meeting yourself while using a timeturner: not a good idea. :D

Kemper




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 19:59:32 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:59:32 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <4ADC932A.3000305@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbigf4+4ceu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188158



---  "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Bart:
> >    
> > However, I would suspect that the attitude of Muggle 
> > parents in finding out that their children are going to be
> > welcome in the WW is similar to what their attitude would 
> > be if they found out that their child was member of the 
> > aristocracy, and was offered a position and education 
> > befitting a member.
> >   
> 
> Ah, good.  He came up for air... ;->
> 
> First of all, Mudbloods weren't universally welcomed into the
> wizarding community. 
> 
> Hg would have made a brilliant academic or attorney in 
> Muggleville.  ... Hg could have led, I think, a fuller life 
> or more rewarding life on the Muggle side of the tracks. 
> 
> Granted, there is merit in what you write about the relative
> ease of life for an accomplished wizarding family. But I 
> suspect it was not as rewarding a life as Hg could have had. 
> 
> Ron, Ginny, et. al., had no possibility of being fully 
> functioning &  successful Muggles, despite Ron's driver's 
> license. HP fled that life.  But Hg could have chosen either. 
> 
> It's all speculation, of course. 
> -- 
> 
> Rick Kennerly
>

bboyminn:

I'm not so sure I agree with either of you, though, without a
doubt, you both make very good and very valid points. 

I see no reason why Hermione couldn't have gone on to a
muggle university. True, her formal educational background is
not up to the usual standards, but her informal education 
should be right up there with the best. Hermione is very
curious, and has no trouble learning things on her own. If she
wanted to go to a muggle university and live a productive
muggle professional life, I'm sure she could have made it 
happen. 

Further there are those with higher muggle educations who fail
in life, and those with low muggle educations who succeed. It
is more a matter of intelligence and ambition, than it is about
education, or at least formal education.

Harry and Ron are a different story. They could have both had
standard comprehensive public school educations, and still not
done any better in life, as so many who graduate from high
school equally live very modest lives. 

Again, it has more to do with motivation, than education. As
Ron and Harry are at Hogwarts, so to do many if not most 
students fail to take full advantage of the educational 
opportunity afforded to them. Many unmotivated students are
simply concerned with partying, and passing the most recent
test that has been presented to them; multiple choice not doubt.
They aren't really  looking to the future at all, and as a 
result, have very little future available to them. 

So, my point is that Ron and Harry could certainly learn to 
live and succeed in the muggle world if they were motivated to
do so. 

While we don't see formal English and literature classes at
Hogwarts, we also see that the school is far more essay driven
than most American schools. Most N.American schools have sunk
into a morass of multiple choice, or as it is more popularly
called multiple guess. 

They aren't required to think, to analyze, or logically and
clearly express themselves, and it is beginning to show. Be
cause of the lack of strong language and essay testing, the
USA is gradually losing its ability for analytical and critical
thinking and problem solving. Yet the wizard world seems very 
strong on these things. 

We see the students doing plenty of essay work, and plenty of 
research in the library for those essays. I seriously doubt 
that the teachers at Hogwarts allow sloppy poorly structure
English in those essays. So, while not formally taught as a
subject, the demand for competent English language structure
and communications skills are there. 

Art and music also seem to be lacking from the school, but 
they don't seem to be lacking from the wizard world. Plus, we
see there are many clubs at Hogwarts. Though we hear little
about them because Harry takes no interest. We know there is
a Gobstones club, and even a governing body for such clubs. 

We also know there is a Charms Club, as one of the Quidditch
candidates fears interference between the Charms Club schedule
and Quidditch training. 

Who is to say there are not music and art clubs? That fact that
Harry isn't aware of them, doesn't mean they don't exist. 

Further, while no formal universal training in math, the 
students don't seem to be lacking in basic arithmetic skills.
They seem to weigh out potion ingredients without a problem,
and I suspect to various degrees further need for math occurs.
Say for example in calculating star charts for Astrology, and
even to some degree star charts for Astronomy. 

Likely they would lack formal training in higher math skills, 
but I don't think they would be lacking in the underlying
logic required for higher math skills. Nor would they likely 
need higher math skills unless they were going into some
type of engineering field. 

So, yes, in a way, Hogwarts is lacking in higher broader forms
of muggle education, such as art, music, mathematics, literature,
national and European history from a muggle perspective. Though
they would certainly have national and European history from a
magical perspective. But, other than those with a serious 
interest in history, how many of us remember many of the details
from our own high school history classes? 

As to the level of modern education, I recently saw a YouTube
video that was of a kid trying to read a short passage from
Shakespeare, he spend the entire video, a full minute and a
half laughing and struggling with the first word, which was -
melancholy, and never getting it right. It seem a sad failure
that supposedly educated people are unaware of common words
like - melancholy. 

Modern wizard education may be failing to turn out well rounded
people, but it is failing no worse than common modern muggle
education.

Steve/bboyminn




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 20:30:55 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:30:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <9876930.1255982487448.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <9876930.1255982487448.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADCCC7F.6020908@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188159


> Modern wizard education may be failing to turn out well rounded
> people, but it is failing no worse than common modern muggle
> education.
>   

As a general rule, though, academically & professionally successful 
parents turn out the same kind of kids.  Certainly Hg demonstrated 
academic talent, drive, and ability, so she would have been successful 
in the Muggle world. 

I just can't imagine Hg, having grown up in the modern world, wanting to 
return to pre-WWII Europe (or New Zealand, circa 2002), which is what 
the Wizarding World seems to be like--Radio but no TV or movies, Mom & 
Pop Shops not Malls, Private Hotels and not La Quinta, Newspapers but 
not Computers, Pen and Ink but no word processors--except the QQQ, Pure 
Blood mania with scapegoats like Mudbloods and Jews taking the brunt of 
the abuse, all with Voldemort/Hitler on the rise.  Ms. W can swish and 
flick to run Mr. W's vest from the washer and through the mangle, but 
why not just just drop it in the Kenmore?  Or she could load the 
dishwasher instead of setting a spell to work scrubbing dishes. 

I read Jane Austen books (and see the movies) and I can't help but think 
how boring life was for those people living it, not to mention somebody 
that had experienced life in the late 19th or 20th century.  There are 
no really clear advantages (other than finding love) for Hg to choose 
the WW over Muggleville. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 21:51:37 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:51:37 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0910191024k375c06e9u6ab3236e938a0ae8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbin19+q1dd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188160



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova <sweenlit at ...> wrote:
>
> sistermagpie:
> 
> And I didn't actually assign any different motivation to Hermione than she
> had in the book. She's getting them out of Voldemort's immediate vicinity.
> (Though in defending her choice people often naturally have to make up other
> motivations to explain the memory charm, like Hermione protecting Harry and
> herself in some way by making it harder for Voldemort to crack her parents'
> minds--even though they don't really know anything anyway.)
> 
> Lynda:
> 
> I don't defend Hermione's choice by making up other motivations. She did
> what she did to protect them, short and simple. Other children and other
> parents have taken similar actions for the same reasons. And from  reading
> the books, Hermione said that she had told her parents quite a lot about
> Harry. I therefore believe that she did tell her parents "quite a lot" about
> Harry. Enough that she felt they needed to be protected from the possible
> danger provided by Voldemort. I'd rather protect my family from possible
> harm by removing them from harm's vicinity by whatever means possible than
> not take protective action and see them hurt, even if they were five steps
> away from something I'm on top of. Five steps is not very far and if I can
> keep my family safe, I'll do that. I think Hermione's motivations were the
> same.
> 
> Lynda
> 

Montavilla47;

Yes, the motivation isn't really at issue.  What's at issue is whether 
or not Hermione acted with or without her parents' consent.  While
the book doesn't directly state it either way, the most *plausible*
inference, given Hermione's past actions, and the *plausibility*
of any ordinary parents, is that she did act without their consent
or input.

That doesn't make Hermione a bad person.  It just makes her very
arrogant.  Especially since common sense (and the book itself) provide
other, less drastic alternative ways to keep the Grangers safe.





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Oct 19 22:03:43 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:03:43 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <4ADB8978.6070907@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hbinnv+9l28@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188161

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:

rick:
> > It is actually amazing, when you think on it, that they'd let Hg go to 
> > Hogwarts at all.  When compared to the Granger's schooling, a Hogwarts 
> > training is more trade school than traditional education. 
 
Bart:
>  In many countries (including Great Britain, I believe), trade 
> schools are far more than they are in the United States (although the 
> United States has some notable exceptions, like the Culinary Institutes 
> of America). In Europe, trade schools are more than learning the basic 
> skills to start at the bottom and stay there; they learn every aspect of 
> the trade as a career, from the bottom level work to running a business 
> dedicated to the trade 

Geoff:
The name "trade school" is not found within UK education.

Courses which are specifically geared to an area such as catering 
or business skills or motor mechanics, for example, will usual run 
as continuation courses from ordinary secondary schools and 
take place in Colleges of Further Education - either post-Year 11 
or post-Sixth Form They are sub-university and may either act as 
a precursor to taking a full degree or issue vocational qualifications 
in their own right.

As one example, the transition from Hogwarts to the Auror training 
scheme echoes this type of educational route in the Wizarding World.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 22:10:26 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:10:26 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <hbin19+q1dd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbio4i+f4g8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188162





> > Lynda:
> > 
> > I don't defend Hermione's choice by making up other motivations. She did
> > what she did to protect them, short and simple. Other children and other
> > parents have taken similar actions for the same reasons. And from  reading
> > the books, Hermione said that she had told her parents quite a lot about
> > Harry. I therefore believe that she did tell her parents "quite a lot" about
> > Harry. <SNIP> 
> 
> Montavilla47;
> 
> Yes, the motivation isn't really at issue.  What's at issue is whether 
> or not Hermione acted with or without her parents' consent.  While
> the book doesn't directly state it either way, the most *plausible*
> inference, given Hermione's past actions, and the *plausibility*
> of any ordinary parents, is that she did act without their consent
> or input.
> 
> That doesn't make Hermione a bad person.  It just makes her very
> arrogant.  Especially since common sense (and the book itself) provide
> other, less drastic alternative ways to keep the Grangers safe.
>


Alla:

I was under impression that a lot of issues were discussed in this thread, including motivation most definitely. I mean, arguing that people are defending Hermione's choice by coming up with motivations that did not really exist is questioning it, no?

And at least two parents in this thread stated that they would have understood, agreed or at least would have forgiven Hermione and no, I am not counting myself, although I would think that as long as I can think about child whom I love as my own, I could give an opinion as well, and I would totally understand her motivation.

But in any event I did not see any agreement between parents either.

Yes, Hermione doing it without consent would have made her arrogant or... just extremely desperate to protect her parents at all costs. I would go with desperate, but it is JMO of course.

The thing is it is not as clear cut to everybody that she did do it without consent as it seems to be to you, IMO.

Alla




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 22:28:27 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:28:27 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbi4e8+s822@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbip6b+9emd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188163



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> > Montavilla47:
> > 
> > While I think Pippin and Joey make good arguments, I have to 
> > agree with Kemper.  It is definitely in character for Hermione to
> > act for others without bothering to consult them.
> > 
> > It's also a bit illogical for her to memory charm her parents
> > unless it was *without* consent.  If they were willing to move to
> > Australia in the first place, then they could just as easily pretend
> > to be Wendell and Monica Wilkins as be charmed into believing 
> > that they are.  
> 
> Pippin:
> The Grangers are dentists, not actors. And even if they were actors, they'd still have to remain in exile and in hiding knowing that terrible things were happening at home and their daughter was in danger. Sirius couldn't stand it in the end, why should the Grangers think they could?

Montavilla47:

The Grangers don't have to be actors, either.  All they really have to do
is move to Australia.  In order for any acting skills to come into play, 
Voldmort has to locate them.  Once he does, then it doesn't matter
how good their acting skills are or how good Hermione's non-Memory
Charms are.  They're still going to be in trouble.

As for Sirius not being able to stand Harry being in danger--it was
the other way round, wasn't it?  It was Harry who couldn't stand the
thought of Sirius being in danger and thus fell for Voldemort's vision
--which was sent directly to Harry through a unique mind connection.

My honest opinion about it is that the Grangers, had they remained
in their right minds, would have been better off in an Order safe house
and not in Australia, simply because they would have been with Order
members and might have been able to get a bit of information 
through the Wizarding Wireless--as Ron was able to do.

Pippin:
> Odysseus knew he wouldn't be able to resist the Sirens, however strong his resolve, so he had himself tied to the mast of his ship. I see the Grangers' situation as similar. They know that that the best thing they can do to defend Hermione is stay safe themselves. They know they might not be strong enough or skilled enough to do it on their own. Why wouldn't they, like Odysseus, temporarily give up some of their freedom for protection?
> 

Montavilla47:

You're making a lot of assumptions about the Grangers here.  I'll admit
that I've never spent any time trying to figure out what the Grangers 
are like, and it certainly never occurred to me that they were a pair
of Odysseusus (Odyssei?).  

But I do know one thing--it was Odysseus calling the shots about
the Sirens.  And, if given the choice, I'd bet he'd never take the option
of forgetting his son and wife, even if it made it easier to sleep with--
what was her name?  Calypso? (Or Circe, take your pick...)



Pippin:
> There's no need to make the magic difficult to reverse if it's  hard to detect. The Grangers safety will depend on the Death Eaters not finding them in the first place.
> 

Montavilla47:

Exactly.  And that could be as easily accomplished without non-Memory
Charms as with them.

Pippin:
> They might be more vulnerable to a blind search than they would be if they were consciously in hiding. But  Voldemort's not going to put their image on every milk carton in the Potterverse. As we saw with Sirius, that kind of search generates thousands of false leads and you'd need an army to follow up on them.  Voldemort doesn't seem to have those kinds of resources as yet. Usually when he wants to find someone, he uses spies, informants and spells.

Montavilla47:
And, unless his resources include a bunch of spies and informants in
Australia, all the Grangers need to do is use false papers and false
names.  They don't need to be charmed as well.


> Montavilla:
> > 
> > The only people it will help would be Hermione and Harry--and
> > that's only if she's told her parents any information vital to what
> > she and Harry are up to now. 
> 
> Pippin:
> That was Sirius's mistake. He didn't think that personal information would be useful to Voldemort either. But Voldemort is an expert at psychological warfare. Anything that helps him predict how Harry and Hermione might react would be a danger in his hands.

Montavilla47:

True.  But I don't think the non-Memory charms would really help
if Voldemort got hold of the Grangers.  As someone else pointed
out, it didn't help Barty Crouch, Sr. once Voldemort got hold of
Bertha Jorkins.  In which case, the non-Memory Charms don't help
at all.

Which makes them even more useless.


> Montavilla:
> > (Although, I have to question whether a memory charm cast
> > by a young witch who "only knows the theory" would be strong
> > enough to withstand the magic of the Death Eaters in retrieving
> > memories.)
> 
> Pippin:
> According to JKR, what Hermione did to the Death Eaters was different than the magic she used on her parents. We do see different ways of hiding memories in canon. Snape puts some in the Pensieve, Slughorn disguises them -- which, BTW, disposes of the argument that modifying memories is not something wizards would voluntarily do to themselves.
> 
> In any case, that has no bearing on the Grangers' decision. They have no way of assessing Hermione's skills beyond knowing that she gets top marks at school. They'd still have to trust her judgment  if she recommended that another wizard do the job. As far as consulting older, wiser wizards, it was the oldest, wisest wizard that left the matter in Hermione's hands.

Montavilla47:

Yes, he leaves it in her hands... because he's dead! 

Pippin:
> The Grangers must either trust their daughter, whom they know is considered a knowledgeable adult in her own world,  or not. I can't prove that they'd trust her, of course. But if I had a wizard child I couldn't trust, I'd be in Australia already :)


Montavilla47:

Or, she just goes ahead and does without having to go through
the trouble of convincing them or asking any questions about her
competency.  She just waves her wand.





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 22:57:20 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:57:20 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <hbio4i+f4g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbiqsg+ht5v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188164



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > > Lynda:
> > > 
> > > I don't defend Hermione's choice by making up other motivations. She did
> > > what she did to protect them, short and simple. Other children and other
> > > parents have taken similar actions for the same reasons. And from  reading
> > > the books, Hermione said that she had told her parents quite a lot about
> > > Harry. I therefore believe that she did tell her parents "quite a lot" about
> > > Harry. <SNIP> 
> > 
> > Montavilla47;
> > 
> > Yes, the motivation isn't really at issue.  What's at issue is whether 
> > or not Hermione acted with or without her parents' consent.  While
> > the book doesn't directly state it either way, the most *plausible*
> > inference, given Hermione's past actions, and the *plausibility*
> > of any ordinary parents, is that she did act without their consent
> > or input.
> > 
> > That doesn't make Hermione a bad person.  It just makes her very
> > arrogant.  Especially since common sense (and the book itself) provide
> > other, less drastic alternative ways to keep the Grangers safe.
> >
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I was under impression that a lot of issues were discussed in this thread, including motivation most definitely. I mean, arguing that people are defending Hermione's choice by coming up with motivations that did not really exist is questioning it, no?

Montavilla47:

What I mean is that it's a false argument, since, as far as I can see,
no one is trying to assert that Hermione's motive in non-Memory
Charming her parents to forget her existence was done for some
selfish gain.

I know that I think she did it out of a desire to protect her parents.
So, her motivation isn't a problem for me.  It is, as Sistermagpie said, 
a *distraction,* because it gives (some) readers a squicky reaction.  
Because it's an awful thing to do to anyone, especially your parents.

And, while I suspect we're supposed to be thinking how terribly
brave and resourceful Hermione is for doing this, I'm sitting there
thinking, "What kind of a parent would ever agree to that?  Did
they agree to that?  She never really says that they agreed... and
would it make sense for them to do that?  Why didn't she just
do what Harry did and have them put into a safe place?"

Then you get this bizarre image of Hermione just deciding on 
her own to do this without even discussing it with the Order or
anyone else. (I mean, can you see Lupin nodding and saying,
"That's a great idea Hermione--go ahead and do that!"  Can you
see Moody telling Hermione to go ahead and do it, and not 
*insisting* on being the one to cast the non-Memory Charm?)

And, as Sistermagpie noted, there is absolutely no payoff to 
any of this.  We never hear or see any action or plan or even
stray thought on the part of Voldemort or any Death Eaters
about grabbing the Grangers to glean their thoughts for 
information about Harry...

Or the Weasleys for that matter.  Even if everyone believes
that Ron is up in his bedroom with Spattergroit, why not
assume that the Weasleys know as many psychological
insights about Harry as the Grangers (who, after all, have 
barely met him), and kidnap them to get information?

Wouldn't that make a lot more sense than going to the
trouble of creating a fake video showing Hermione 
being kidnapped in some plausibly Muggle fashion in
the hopes that it might be shown internationally and 
that her parents might possible see it?  In the hopes
that she might have let something slip about Harry--
when nobody ever tells the Muggles anything?


Alla:
> And at least two parents in this thread stated that they would have understood, agreed or at least would have forgiven Hermione and no, I am not counting myself, although I would think that as long as I can think about child whom I love as my own, I could give an opinion as well, and I would totally understand her motivation.
> 
> But in any event I did not see any agreement between parents either.
> 
> Yes, Hermione doing it without consent would have made her arrogant or... just extremely desperate to protect her parents at all costs. I would go with desperate, but it is JMO of course.

Montavilla47:

I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.  I see her as both.

Alla:
> The thing is it is not as clear cut to everybody that she did do it without consent as it seems to be to you, IMO.

Montavilla47:

I quite understand that.  And I'll admit that there is a possibility
that she did have their consent.

I just don't find it very likely.  At all.







From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 19 23:19:26 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:19:26 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <4ADCCC7F.6020908@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbis5u+foee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188165



--- "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Modern wizard education may be failing to turn out well rounded
> > people, but it is failing no worse than common modern muggle
> > education.
> >   
> 
> ...
> 
> I read Jane Austen books (and see the movies) and I can't 
> help but think how boring life was for those people living 
> it, not to mention somebody that had experienced life in the
> late 19th or 20th century.  There are no really clear 
> advantages (other than finding love) for Hg to choose 
> the WW over Muggleville. 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rick Kennerly
> Virginia Beach, VA
> www.mouseherder.com 

bboyminn:

But you assume the only choices are one world or the other, 
I suspect there are many who live quite comfortably in both
worlds. 

As to washing clothes, you can simply charm them clean; no 
waste, no water, no pollution, no energy resources.

And how is casting a charm to start the dishes washing 
themselves any different than chucking them in the dishwasher
and pushing a button? 

Back to the point of living in both worlds, I've always 
suspect, though have no direct canon to prove, that there
are people who specifically make their living standing on 
the border of both world. Say for example a green grocer
who is a muggle-born. He may sell fruits and vegetables into 
the wizard world under the table and make a very handsome
profit. 

I'm sure there are many other goods and services that
are discretely transferred between the worlds. Though 
obviously nothing enchanted could make its way into the 
muggle world.

Think of cabinet making, a fine crafted old-world cabinet can
be make with magic, but at the same time not have any actual 
magic in it. That could certainly be sold in fine custom muggle
furniture shops.

The wizard world needs countless mundane things, that could be
brought in from the muggle world for a very low price and sold
for a profit. 

Food and other parishable seem the most obvious object to 
transfer between worlds. If there is a demand, then you can
be sure there is a wizard, probably muggle-born, ready to fill
the need. 

Housing is another example, we know most wizard live quietly
among muggles, as in Godrics Hollow. There is only one true
all wizards village and that is the remote Hogsmead. So, how
to magical people manage to navigate the world of muggle
real estate? Simply, they have help from muggle-borns who are 
familiar with the process. There could even be a dummy 
corporation, that acts as an agent for wizards in various
transactions. 

The possibilities for people who straddle the line between
worlds is near endless. Consider Petunia's letter to Dumbledore
that was sent by common muggle post, that none the less made it
to Dumbledore. While it is not clearly stated, it seem
inevitable that there are many people who work across the 
boundaries of both worlds. 

So, like I said, if Hermione wants to go to a muggle university
and make a living as a muggle, there is really nothing to stop
her but a few details that she could surely overcome. 

Harry to could easily intergrate himself in to some muggle
job, though he seems to have done well in the wizard world,
ultimately becoming the head of the Magic Law Enforcement
office. 

I've even speculated that Fred and George, or I guess only 
George now, who do not seem adverse to the muggle world, might
try to find products they could market to muggles. The wizard
world seems small, and if an enterprising wizard could find a
legal way to make money off of muggles, I'm sure there would
be nothing to stop them.  

I guess my point is that the world of Muggle-borns is not 
as limited as you are making it out. Pureblood magical people
like the Weasley are certainly out of their element more in
the muggle world, but Ron did manage to get a driver's license,
even if he did cheat a bit. So, it is not impossible for a
pureblood to interact sucessfully with the muggle world,
especially not 20 years in the future. 

If anything, I think muggleborns and those in close association
with them have an advantage in both worlds, that could easily
turn to, if not profit, then certainly to their benefit. 

Many millionaires are failures as students. The academic world
was just too stiffling and ridged for them; moving much too
slowly. So, they get there education in the field, and turned
knowledge and ambition into wealth. 

I honestly don't think Hermoine's lack of a full muggle
education slowed her down in any way. I suspect she is more
than capable of doing whatever she wants.

Steve/bboyminn  








From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Mon Oct 19 23:25:11 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:25:11 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her 
	parents
In-Reply-To: <hbiqsg+ht5v@eGroups.com>
References: <hbio4i+f4g8@eGroups.com> <hbiqsg+ht5v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <700201d40910191625p2cd0aaf0me6492ce32906e52e@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188166

> Alla:
> > The thing is it is not as clear cut to everybody that she did do it without consent as it seems to be to you, IMO.

>montavilla47:
> I quite understand that. And I'll admit that there is a possibility
> that she did have their consent.
>
> I just don't find it very likely. At all.

Kemper now:
It's pretty clear cut to me as well based on Hermione's past behavior
and the Wizarding Culture she is accepting which has a history of
disregarding Memory charms on Muggles.

Though, I recognize there's an improbable possibility that Hermione
received her parents blessing in wiping their memories.

Kemper



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 00:07:03 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:07:03 -0000
Subject: Point of view in the HP books (again) Was: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <4AD856C1.3020409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbiuv7+1smr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188167

Rick wrote:

> A little geeky here, but JKR switches back and forth between Harry's 1st person narrative and a wonky kind of 3rd person limited-omniscience POV--like watching a movie shot by a tipsy elf with a camcorder perched on Harry's shoulder--so we seldom know much more than what Harry can do, see, think, or feel or, more accurately sometimes, what Harry THINKS he does, sees, thinks or feels.  <snip>

Carol responds:
Actually, the narrative in the HP books is never first-person unless someone, for instance Hagrid in the Grawp chapter in PoA, is telling his own story. (First person, as I'm sure you know, is "I" or "we.") The story is usually told from the third-person limited perspective, IOW a narrator who is not Harry seeing from his point of view, which means that the narration is occasionally unreliable because Harry is wrong about what's about to happen (like dying from a Crucio or being killed by LV) or oblivious to a detail (such as the "little girls" in HBP being the Polyjuiced Crabbe and Goyle) or just wrong about another character and his motivation (Snape). There are other examples, but those will do for the moment.

You're right, though, that JKR occasionally slips out of his point of view to indicate, for example, that he forgot a dream or to show him asleep or to show other characters. She briefly writes from Hermione's point of view in SS/Ps when she's watching Harry play Quidditch and setting Snape's robes on fire. She points out that Neville is awake and Harry doesn't know it. She writes whole chapters from a Muggle's point of view (Frank Bryce in GoF and the Muggle prime minister in HBP, still using third-person limited omniscient but not from Harry's perspective. Ditto for Voldemort's point of view in the scar-link scenes, which sometimes becomes interestingly tangled with Harry's, as if he's not sure who he is.

On several occasions, she uses the dramatic point of view, outside of any character's mind, depicting them all from the outside as if they were on a stage ("Spinner's End," "The Dark Lord Rising," the chapter or partial chapter about the Muggles reacting to the murder of the Riddles in GoF). The first chapter of SS/PS is somewhere between the omniscient point of view (she can get into any mind she likes but usually doesn't) and the dramatic point of view just described.

At any rate, I agree that when she's using third-person limited to show Harry's perspective, we're limited to what he sees or thinks he sees and to his interpretation of the evidence (or our own counter-interpretation when we think or know that he's wrong).

And I agree that he's really not interested in other people. He himself realizes after the fact that he never thought about Dumbledore as having a past or being young. He also realizes that he's never asked Neville why he was raised by his grandmother. He never asks Hermione about her parents (except whether they might know who Nicholas Flamel is, which she dismisses as unlikely because they're both dentists--aka Muggles who couldn't possibly know anything about the WW, which perhaps shows her ignorance more than theirs, but I digress.) He doesn't know the names of Slytherin students in his Potions and CoMC classes or most Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs (with a few exceptions like Ernie, Hannah, and Justin Finch-Fletchley) who aren't on the Quidditch team. He doesn't even know the names of people in his own house, Cormac MacLaggen and Romilda Vane being cases in point.

At any rate, the only way we find out about people other than Harry is through Harry's encounters with them and his not always accurate interpretation of them. He only occasionally asks questions--partly, I suppose, the Dursleys' fault but mostly, IMO, a simple lack of curiosity on his part. He's preoccupied with his scar or Voldemort or Quidditch or whatever mystery he's solving. For a supposedly unselfish person who loves the WW and sacrifices himself to save it, he's remarkably focused on himself--which is not to downplay his predicament as Voldemort's chief target or to deny his capacity to love a few friends. He's singled out, stared at, loved, hated, and depended on by near or complete strangers and he's Dumbledore's "favorite boy." It would be very hard to pay sufficient attention to other people and their needs (unless their lives are in danger) in such circumstances, even the needs of his best friend.

Carol, who has clearly strayed from bigotry in the Potterverse!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 00:27:43 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:27:43 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <4AD85DF2.7060808@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbj05v+rcnj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188168

Someone (attribution snipped) wrote:
> > If Hermione had memorized "Hogwarts: A History" before she got to school, why didn't she know how the Sorting was done? Surely the definitive reference book on the school would have covered the Sorting Ceremony, wouldn't it?

Rick replied: 
> You'd think.  OTOH, perhaps it was the kind of humdrum procedural  activity that was dropped in the editing.  After all, they've got a lot of history to cover. 

Carol responds:
>From a copyeditor's perspective, it's a very odd error. Clearly, the British copyeditor (the one apparently responsible for the omission) was under no pressure to reduce the length of the book by cutting "humdrum procedural activity." We don't see any other sentences omitted from PS that appear in SS, only that one relating to Dean, a total of fifteen words. (The American copyeditor was preoccupied with Americanizing the diction and spelling, but I won't discuss that here.)

We don't see any other students omitted, either, apparently. Lisa Turpin, a Ravenclaw who is never mentioned again, is presumably included in the British edition. Why drop a Gryffindor, a boy in Harry's House and year, who will clearly be his dorm mate? 

I think that the answer is JKR's math. The narrator has just stated, "And now there were only three people left to be sorted." One of those "three" people is Ron, who clearly can't be dropped. The other "two" are Lisa Turpin, Dean Thomas, and Blaise Zabini.

The copyeditor should have queried "Four?" and listed the four students or just changed "three" to "four" with a note of explanation, as I would have done. Instead, the British copyeditor apparently decided to sacrifice, erm, red-pencil one of the students. Instead of choosing the Ravenclaw nonentity (sorry, Miss Turpin!) or the Slytherin with the unusual name, he or she chose, for reasons unknown, Harry's fellow Gryffindor, Dean. To me, it seems like an idiotic solution: What if Dean turns out to be important? At least *query* JKR before you omit a student who may or may not have a role to play in the story. Better to insult her ability to count and point out that one Ravenclaw, one Slytherin, and two Gryffindors equals four students.

Carol, who was jarred by the error even on a first reading but is more disturbed by the British copyeditor's "solution"




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 00:58:38 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:58:38 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbamts+i18r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbj1vu+t584@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188169

Pippin:
> > Imagine that your child is in danger -- is there something that was yours to give that you wouldn't give to save her?
> 
> Ceridwen:
> Convince me that my daughter would be in danger if I did not give this thing. We're not talking clothes or a car, we're talking a lifetime of memories. I wouldn't want my child taken from me, that includes the memories I have of this child. <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> The idea that without such memory charm you are much more likely to break under torture and give out to Death Eaters everything you know about your child's whereabouts is what would have convinced me to agree to it.  See, Kemper called Hermione selfish for doing it upthread, I would have called Hermione's parents pretty selfish if they would not have agreed. It is about their daughter's life too, right?
>
Carol responds:
How is it about Hermione's life? The Grangers can't tell anyone where  Hermione is going, with or without a Memory Charm, because she doesn't know herself. And the simple expedient of asking them to move to Australia (or anywhere out of reach of the Death Eaters) would surely be sufficient to get them (voluntarily) out of harm's way. Just keep their whereabouts secret from their neighbors and their patients and they'll be fine. (hermione could cast a protective spell on the neighbor's houses as an extra precaution.) There's no indication that the DEs have any power or influence outside Britain. Even Voldemort manages only to kill half a dozen people on the European continent. He has no power base there.

As for taking the memories of a child from a parent, nothing could be more cruel. Surely, the Diggorys are better off with their cherished memories of their lost son than with the delusion that they never had him. And the same would be true for the Grangers if they were to lose Hermione. 

I agree with Ceridwen, not that Hermione has gone too far to be forgiven, but that she is thoughtlessly manipulative and unwittingly cruel if, indeed, she wiped their memories without their consent. it's bad enough that they have to sacrifice their home, their possessions, and their dental practice to keep *themselves* (not Hermione) safe from interrogation, torture, and possible murder. But better to lose all that *by choice* and to spend a year worrying about their daughter (much as Molly is spending a year worrying about her son) than to lose the memory of that daughter, which, believe me, no loving parent would ever consent to do. Better to have loved her and lost her than never to have had her at all--or not to remember having had her and loved her. And suppose that Hermione has overestimated her magical abilities? Suppose that she can't put them right even if she finds them? And even if she succeeds, if she didn't tell them what she was doing, how is she going to explain that she sent them to Australia "for their own good"? It's "magic is might" and performing magic "for the Muggles' own good" all over again. She might as well be the young Dumbledore. (I won't go so far as to say the young Grindelwald.)

Carol, still wondering how Hermione could have altered her parents' memories so thoroughly if she'd never performed a memory charm and what kind of spell it actually was




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Oct 20 03:06:44 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 03:06:44 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbj1vu+t584@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbj9g4+u86k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188170

Carol:
And the simple expedient of asking them to move to Australia (or anywhere out of reach of the Death Eaters) would surely be sufficient to get them (voluntarily) out of harm's way. 

Pippin:
That didn't save Sirius. 
It's said of generals that they are always ready to fight the last war. I think the fate of Sirius would be  strongly in Hermione's mind, and in the Grangers' also.  It wasn't Voldemort's wiles that  drove Sirius, first out of exile and then from Grimmauld Place. It was his sense of duty to his godson.  

However much he hated it, he did try to remain hidden, but his impulse to protect Harry personally was just too strong. And unlike Harry at the MoM, Hermione going into danger is not a mistake that she can avoid.

If the Grangers know all this, then they realize that just disappearing or finding refuge in an Order safe house will not be enough. And the consequences would be worse, because they probably know things about Harry that no one but Hermione knows,  things that would put both Hermione and Harry in danger -- because anything that endangers Harry will endanger Hermione too. Voldemort would very much like to know, for example, that Harry's feelings for Ginny are  more serious than anyone suspects. 

Remember, too, in JKR's original plan, both Ron and Harry would have lost a parent figure in OOP and the Grangers' sense that they could be in danger too would be even stronger.

Of course it would be cruel to lose the memories of a child. But how much crueller to live on, knowing that you might have done something to save that child and didn't do it? I think people are assuming that it wouldn't happen, since once Voldemort got the information he wanted the Grangers would be dead anyway. But what if he only captured one?

It's not only Hermione who's weirdly selfish in the scenario we're discussing. It's the Grangers, who are made to care more about their memories of Hermione than about Hermione herself.  I can understand running into the burning house to save the baby pictures. But I can't understand why you'd save the pictures and leave the child inside. 

Also, I think people are overlooking the difficulty people who aren't used to a life of crime or subterfuge would have living in a foreign country under an assumed name. Illegal immigration and using false papers are serious crimes, you know. Voldemort's people will be saved quite a bit of work if Australia deports the Grangers for them. 


Carol:
 And suppose that Hermione has overestimated her magical abilities? Suppose that she can't put them right even if she finds them? And even if she succeeds, if she didn't tell them what she was doing, how is she going to explain that she sent them to Australia "for their own good"? 

Pippin:
Is that likely? Hermione apparently never learned riddikulus, but has she ever said she could do a spell and then not been able to do it? The only one that ever goes wrong for her is the polyjuice, and even then the magic worked just fine, though not with the results that Hermione intended. 

But I agree, it would be ridiculous for Hermione to think that she could ship her parents off to Australia, possibly for years, and then reinstate them in their old lives without their ever realizing that something had happened to them. Even if she could, it would change their relationship forever. Why would she risk that when there are perfectly logical reasons for them to do as she asks?

These aren't students in the DA that she doesn't know very well, (if she had known them all, she wouldn't have needed a spell to tell her which ones might be disloyal). They aren't House Elves whose plight moves her not because she sees them suffer in their situation but because she is overwhelmed by guilt for profiting from it. 

These are her parents. She trusted them enough to tell them all those things about herself and Harry in the first place. The best thing about being a prefect is that it's something her parents can understand.  Their wishes meant enough to her that she  kept on with her braces even after she was sure she could do a tooth shrinking charm instead. Why put in those details, if JKR wants us to think their feelings aren't important to her? 

Pippin
 




From sweenlit at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 05:55:39 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:55:39 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her 
	parents
In-Reply-To: <700201d40910191625p2cd0aaf0me6492ce32906e52e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <hbio4i+f4g8@eGroups.com> <hbiqsg+ht5v@eGroups.com>
	 <700201d40910191625p2cd0aaf0me6492ce32906e52e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0910192255t3b5ced8ap81001c82d02bc202@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188171

Lynda:

I don't know about this attitude of arrogance. I've asked some friends of
mine, all of them HP lovers who have read the books a number of times but
don't subscribe to any online forums what they think about what Hermione
did, was it arrogant, altruistic, do they think there was precedent in the
past behavior and in the actions of Voldemort at that time to warrant
Hermione's actions and to the last person they said, No it did not show
arrogance on Hermione's part, there was precedent for Hermione's actions and
they don't get what the big deal with this is. And I know  a lot of people
who are HP buffs but don't do online groups. I've been asking for a few days
now.

One thing that's come up is did Hermione have her parents
blessing/permission to do this and while on the face of it that would seem
to be the way to go, on the other hand, is it really important that the
readers know whether or not she did, or is it the same type of thing as is
Professor McGonagall married and her spouse just not mentioned in the text?

I think we sometimes assign motives and problems where there don't have to
be any--I've mentioned that before. I think the old saying is to let
sleeping dogs lie and that might be a good way to handle this type of thing,

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From goldenscarabofegypt at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 08:25:58 2009
From: goldenscarabofegypt at yahoo.com (goldenscarabofegypt)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:25:58 -0000
Subject: What could happen in the books WAS :Re: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) i
In-Reply-To: <h871i9+ptkj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbjs6m+6a34@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188172

Alla:

> But if writer did not say it did it happen?
> 
> My answer is of course it did not happen, otherwise how we are supposed to discuss the story if your story is different from what author wanted to tell us?
> 
> I did and probably will disagree with the interpetations of what actually can be considered a hint based on which our imaginations run wild, but if there is no sign of something in the book whatsoever, not even a hint to based it on, yes, I would say that it did not happen.
> 
> I want to say that Harry apparated on Mars for the fun of it. Are you really saying that it could have happened?


Scarabsi:
Forgive me, but I wish to point out quickly that this person's suspicions about the Weasley's history with the OoP are risen from the strange behavior of the Order members, which is what caused them to have this theory in the first place (and I cannot say that the theory doesn't sound plausible, either).

On the other hand, there is nothing in any of the books that would even remotely suggest that Harry had ever been to Mars, and in fact the very build of his character makes it even less likely - Antisocial introvert Harry Potter, who shies away from his own somewhat-earned fame, do such a flashy and pointless action as Apparating into space, when he doesn't even like Apparating in the first place? This is without even going into whether Harry would know how to survive in space without a spacesuit and other details like that which are just taking the silly-bait.

I find that the comparison does not adequately explain why you would dismiss the mentioned possibility with the reason that you gave. Oh, I can likely guess what you meant, and it is a fair and sensible argument in itself. . . just not when it involves out-of-context intergalactic travels to Pigfarts.

Scarabsi, who had meant to make a short, quick post, honest.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Oct 20 11:46:22 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:46:22 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hbj05v+rcnj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbk7ue+lqsu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188173

(from a previous post)
>
> Someone (attribution snipped) wrote:
> > > If Hermione had memorized "Hogwarts: A History" before she got to school, why didn't she know how the Sorting was done? Surely the definitive reference book on the school would have covered the Sorting Ceremony, wouldn't it?


Potioncat:
"Hogwarts: A History" didn't cover the house-elves either. I don't think the book was written with children in mind; the author would expect the readers to know how the sorting was done, and wouldn't have to go into details. Describing the creation of the Sorting Hat would be enough.

All the first years are nervous and it's the nature of kids to be more afaid of what older kids have said, than certain of what parents have said. So even if Hermione knew she had to put on a hat, she might not know what to expect once it was on her head. 

She said earlier that she wanted Gryffindor, but as her turn came up, she was going over spells she had learned. Sounds more like a Ravenclaw approach. No wonder the Sorting Hat brought it up.



I have a question. McGonagall tells the first years, "Each house has its own noble history and each has produced outstanding witches and wizards."

Did her speech convince you after what you had already read? Did you think one house was better? What do you think now? Do you think McGonagall was sincere?






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 16:09:53 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:09:53 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <4ADC34D6.2030304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbknch+l0hl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188174

Magpie wrote:
> > Voldemort and the DEs weren't looking for them, so they weren't in danger. But that said, a memory charm doesn't make them immune from torture. As far as I can tell all it did was make them go to Australia, which they could have done with their own memories. 

Rick (I think) responded:  
> That should read, so they weren't in danger YET.  Just like the Weasleys had to go into hiding after it discovered Ron was with HP, so too would the Grangers.  Hg could foresee the issue and acted preemptively.

Carol notes:
No one that I know of is arguing that Hermione should not have anticipated danger to her parents and protected them or that they should not have been urged to leave the country. The objection is to controlling them and wiping their memories if she did so without their knowledge.

I agree with Magpie that they could have voluntarily gone to Australia, knowing the reasons and *choosing* to sacrifice their homes, possessions, jobs, identities, and (temporarily) contact with their daughter instead of being *forced* to make those sacrifices without even knowing it, and, worse, robbed of all memory of a beloved child because *she* thought that it would protect them to do so.

Yes, they would have been in danger if they stayed in England, especially after Hermione's being with Harry was discovered, but a Memory Charm was pointless and cruel as it would not have protected them from torture and they didn't know anything about her whereabouts, anyway (nor did she). I agree with Magpie that they'd have been safe in Australia with their memories intact. The DEs were all in England and Scotland, and you can't Apparate from Britain to Australia, even in stages, because of the long distance over water--even if they were known to have moved there. It would be obvious even to someone as dim as a Carrow that the Grangers could not know their daughter's whereabouts if no one in England knew where she was! 

As for staging a media "event" with Hermione Granger supposedly kidnapped as someone suggested, the DEs couldn't and wouldn't do that. Where would they find a Muggle TV camera and news crew? The Muggle media and the WW's pathetic substitutes (the Daily Prophet, the Quibbler, and the Wizarding Wireless) are completely unconnected. As someone said, the only reason that Sirius Black appeared on the Muggle news was that Fudge informed the Muggle Prime Minister, who presented him to the Muggle media, and from there to British (not Australian or American or Chinese) Muggles as a Muggle criminal who had escaped from an unnamed prison.

IMO, the Grangers would have had no more news, staged or otherwise, of Hermione's supposed capture than the Weasleys did of Ron's. (Luna's kidnapping was real, and the DEs must have presented evidence to Xeno that they had her--perhaps her captured wand or a lock of her hair.)

It's simple, really. Tell them their danger and let them weigh the risks for themselves. Give them the choice and let them act for themselves. And, especially, let them keep their precious memories of their daughter intact. If Molly Weasley can endure a year of not knowing where her teenage son is, the Grangers--mature, intelligent people as far as can tell--can endure a year of not knowing where their daughter is. It's an ordeal, true, but they're used to having her away from home and they're not helpless children. Hermione can offer to magically transform the names on their Muggle drivers licenses and passports and even, somehow, to protect the house. But she should not even suggest wiping their memories, and if she does it without their consent (cf. the examples of similar behavior that Kemper cited and add in the trapping of Rita Skeeter in a jar), I can find no excuse for her conduct except the conviction of an immature know-it-all that she, like the young Dumbledore, knows what's best for everyone and has the power to carry out her plans.

Carol, who agrees with the poster who said that Hermione and the young Albus DD are remarkably alike, the difference being that he was apparently conservative and she is radically liberal 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 17:00:30 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:00:30 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry WAS: Hermione and her parents redux
In-Reply-To: <hbhq3d+gu4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbkqbe+fb8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188175

Alla:
> > > 
> > > One can of course argue that the very **thought** of supposedly teaching a lesson to the teenager stricken with grief over death of his mentor is abusive, sadistic and totally totally disgusting.
> > > 
> > > One can also argue that the thought of **punishing** this teenager when he is in such horrible pain is ten times more sadistic.
> > 
> > Potioncat:
> > In this case, does the phrase "teaching a lesson to" mean, instructing or punishing. Because that wording can go either way. I'm just not sure if you're saying that even teaching Harry would be abusive. I would agree if say, after DD had fallen off the tower Professor Snape said, "Get to class, you'll be late."
> > 
> > But Snape and Harry were in battle, Snape was defending himself while trying to keep his cover, and it was his only opportunity to prepare Harry to face LV.
> > 
> > Besides, I think Snape was also stricken with grief, and had the extra burdens of not being able to express it, and having caused the death.
> >
> 
>  Alla:
> Well, first of all let me be clear that I wrote the above post based on hypothetical premise that I agree that what Snape was doing is teaching Harry. I really do not accept said premise, but if I were agree with it for the sake of the argument, yes I do think that it was sadistic.
> 
> Let me elaborate on both parts. See, after DH revelations I tend to agree with you that Snape likely was in a great deal of pain after killing Dumbledore, since this is not something that he wanted to do. But I do not think that you (hypothetical you) can have it both ways here ? either Snape WAS in a great deal of pain and he was in no mood to think of teaching Harry or he was not in any sort of pain and then if he decided to teach Harry something, I thought he really ought to teach Harry something that Harry really needed and without causing him additional pain.
> 
> Does that make sense? I tend to believe that Snape was in a pain and he was lashing out at Harry and wanted him to be in pain too, funnily I tend to be more forgiving in this situation, than if what Snape was doing was calculatingly taunting Harry and then cursing him.
> 
> And OMG especially if what Carol postulated that Snape was "punishing Harry's insolence and ingratitude", that to me is of course sadistic with capital S. I mean, seriously, if Snape is in a state of mind to be calculating enough to punish Harry for something, surely he would understand that there could be no insolence and ingratitude, because Harry would not know why he is supposed to feel gratitude. Gee, Snape, you killed Dumbledore, thank you so much, you murderer and then you so graciously stopped the curse of another DE because you wanted me to be a present for your Lord. Oh yeah, that is a reason to be grateful, NOT in my mind.
> 
> So, if you are interested to know how I would like Snape to behave, if he was somewhat rational and to show that he is not sadistic, I will tell you. :) I would like him to not engage, just block Harry's curses if it is necessary to do so for him to escape, but certainly do not talk to Harry back and most certainly not cursing him back.  And maybe then it will be a lesson for Harry how to do a job one does not want to do and not hurt innocents in progress of it, or something like that.
> 
> And of course we all know how much Harry "needed" Occlumency after all, that is not at all, he won based on his ability to love and sacrifice himself for others, not because he could close his mind, that to me also tells that Snape had no clue what Harry needed to be taught.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>
Carol responds:
Actually, I agree one hundred percent with Potioncat's post. And when I said that Snape wanted to punish Harry's ingratitude and arrogance, I meant that Snape had finally had enough. After enduring Harry's taunts and deflecting his curses, including a Crucio, without hurting him, and after trying to get in a desperate last lesson about dueling DEs (use Occlumency and nonverbal spells!) and after saving him from a Crucio and getting the DEs out of Hogwarts-- he finally punished Harry with a minor spell that simultaneously disarms him and hurts a little (cf. Narcissa hitting Bellatrix with as Stinging Hex and Harry accidentally doing the same to Snape in the Occlumency lessons). Until that point, he has shown remarkable self-control, teaching Harry in the only way possible (through taunts) and reacting with sarcasm rather than open anger, at the same time *parrying* all his curses rather than fighting back as Harry wants him to do.


But when Harry, in his own pain and anger, implies that Snape not only killed Dumbledore but killed *James*, whom Snape hated but tried to protect once he realized that the Prophecy involved Lily, Snape reaches the breaking point.

How could Snape, who has been protecting Harry and who killed DD against his own will and is suffering the fires of hell in his own mind as even Harry can see (the narrator compares his pain to that of Fang in the burning hut) not think that Harry is arrogant and ungrateful (not to mention deluded) when he tries to Crucio him and use his own spells against him and calls him a coward? And when Harry pushes his buttons by implying that Snape killed James, whom Snape had tried, despite loathing him, to save, how do you think Snape feels? I think his pain, already unimaginable, reaches the point where it's beyond endurance.

At that point, Snape's reserve breaks. He's had enough, and besides, he has to get off the Hogwarts grounds, and he has to keep Harry thinking that he's LV's man. So he casts--not the Crucio that Harry aimed at him but some sort of stinging hex to disarm and temporarily distract Harry--and, yes, to give him a bit of temporary pain--so that Snape can get off the grounds and get back to the job we know he does only because DD orders him to, being Voldemort's right-hand man. 

At any rate, I certainly don't agree that the very thought of teaching Harry a lesson (in the sense of teaching him to defend himself against a skilled DE like himself) is cruel under the circumstances. Snape is suffering just as much if not more than Harry, but he knows that this is his last chance to teach the boy *anything.* He wants to make the point that if he were really a DE, he could easily have killed or tortured Harry on the spot. He could have beaten him with no effort at all because he can read Harry's mind, not to mention that the shouted spells tell even a DE who is not a Legilimens what Harry is about to do. Now, granted, Harry is never in a position to duel a DE (the final battle with Voldemort is different), but Snape can't know that. He's trying to say, "If you want to defeat a skilled DE, you have to use both Occlumency and nonverbal spells." (Think what a great duelist--and later, Auror--Harry would have been if he'd learned what Snape tried to teach him in OoP and HBP!) How trying to pass on that one last piece of what Snape considers to be crucial information can be considered cruel, I don't know. It has to be in the guise of a taunt; there's no alternative.

My main point, though, is that the impulse, at the very end of the battle, to punish Harry (if that's what he's doing) occurs when Snape is at the end of his rope, desperate and tortured and furious. He can't tell Harry the truth. He can only--like Harry himself, who is trying to punish Snape--take out his anger on the boy he hates. The difference is that Snape is still trying to protect Harry, that he has much more power than Harry but has refrained from using it, and that he uses only a minor spell when he could easily have killed or tortured him or used Sectumsempra. That he did none of those things ought to have been a clue to Harry that Snape was not the murdering traitor he seemed to be, just as the lessons he tried to teach ("No Unforgiveable Curses from you": "Close your mind and your mouth") should have been a clue that he was trying to help Harry fight as Dumbledore's man. (Snape himself never uses an Unforgiveable Curse other than the AK on the Tower that we know of and uses Sectumsempra only against a DE--though, unfortunately, he misses.)

I don't expect you to agree with me. I'm only trying to present my point of view more clearly.

Carol, who revised her paragraph-long sentences but suspects that she's still rambling a bit




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Oct 20 17:11:29 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (Susan A)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:11:29 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <4ADC932A.3000305@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbkr01+ltg5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188176

Rick:
> Hg would have made a brilliant academic or attorney in 
> Muggleville.  So, through her parent's breeding, education and 
> expectations, Hg could have led, I think, a fuller life or more 
> rewarding life on the Muggle side of the tracks. 
> 
> Granted, there is merit in what you write about the relative ease 
> of life for an accomplished wizarding family.  But I suspect it was 
> not as rewarding a life as Hg could have had. 

SSSusan:
First off, I don't question at all your position that Hermione could have had quite a successful and fulfilling life in the Muggle world.  

OTOH, I want to think more about whether I agree that her life in the WW was "not as rewarding a life" as she could have had in the MW.  I'm just not sure that's so.  That really, imo, depends upon how one defines 'fulfilling' and must, imo, take into account what each individual would want or need in order to call his/her life 'fulfilling.'  

It's the latter part of that which makes me want to ponder a bit what Hermione would have been likely to have really, really wanted in her life in order to have classified it as 'fulfilling.

By way of an example of what I mean, in HARRY's case I think one could argue that, regardless of what he might ever have done, accomplished or become in the MW vs. what life was likely to hold for him in the WW, his life would have been most fulfilling in the WW simply because it contained magic and, especially, **because he could fly.**  I don't think Harry knew or felt much greater joy than when he was flying, something which would have been denied him if he'd lived his life in the Muggle world, without magic.  

So the question is, was there something(s) similar in Hermione's experience of the WW which would have meant she, too, would have found a WW life more fulfilling than a MW existence, no matter how successful she would likely have been in the MW?

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 17:26:29 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:26:29 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbi4e8+s822@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbkrs5+fajj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188177

Pippin wrote:
> The Grangers are dentists, not actors. And even if they were actors, they'd still have to remain in exile and in hiding knowing that terrible things were happening at home and their daughter was in danger. Sirius couldn't stand it in the end, why should the Grangers think they could?
><snip>

Carol responds:
They don't need to be actors to live *as dentists* in Australia. All they need is some magically faked documents with their new names, including their resumes (CVs) and other credentials. In fact, they don't really need new names since the DEs aren't going to follow them to Australia. Even if they could get to Australia, locate the Grangers, and torture them, what would be the point? By the time they found out that Hermione hadn't gone to Australia and was traveling with Harry Potter, whatever the Grangers knew about Hermione's whereabouts would be useless. 

As I keep saying, there was no need to alter their memories, which certainly would not have protected them from torture. All they needed to do was to get safely out of the country, which despite being Muggles they were perfectly competent to do. In fact, it's easier for a Muggle to take an airplane than for a DE to ride a broom to Australia, and you can't Apparate from Britain to Australia. Nor, as I said before, did LV have any power base or henchmen in Australia. The Grangers would have been perfectly safe in Australia with their memories intact, with or without a new identity. All they needed was the facts and the choice to act on them or remain in England and risk being tortured.

It's a simple matter of respect for Muggle intelligence and respect for parents, neither of which Hermione showed. They consistently respected her and her choices. In return, she spent nest to no time with them, lied to them, concealed information from them, and, finally, robbed them of their identities and memories. And then she cried over *her* loss because she might die without their knowledge. IMO, both JKR and Hermione overreacted to the situation here.

BTW, whatever she performed, it was a simple Obliviate like the one she says she's never cast before in the Muggle cafe. It's something more akin to the memory modification that Tom Riddle performs on Morfin Gaunt and Hokey, replacing their real memories with a false one. But she's taken away their identities and all their memories of their daughter, a huge violation of their lives, minds, and selves. The more I think about it, the more it looks like "Magic Is Might" and Muggles being controlled and manipulated, not for the "greater good" but only for their own supposed benefit. Someone should give Hermione a taste of her own medicine. "You don't learn, Granger, do you?"

Carol, who believes in forgiveness but nevertheless thinks that Hermione needs to learn a lesson in respect for others and their choices




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Oct 20 17:36:42 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (Susan A)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:36:42 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbip6b+9emd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbksfa+467h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188178

Montavilla47:
> The Grangers don't have to be actors, either.  All they really have 
> to do is move to Australia.  <snip>
 
Pippin:
> > There's no need to make the magic difficult to reverse if it's  
> > hard to detect. The Grangers safety will depend on the Death 
> > Eaters not finding them in the first place.

Montavilla47:
> Exactly.  And that could be as easily accomplished without non-
> Memory Charms as with them.

Pippin:
> > They might be more vulnerable to a blind search than they would 
> > be if they were consciously in hiding. <snip> 

Montavilla47:
> And, unless his resources include a bunch of spies and informants in
> Australia, all the Grangers need to do is use false papers and false
> names.  They don't need to be charmed as well.

<snipping gobs>

Montavilla47:
> Or, she just goes ahead and does without having to go through
> the trouble of convincing them or asking any questions about her
> competency.  She just waves her wand.


SSSusan:
I'm coming to this thread late, so I may very easily be missing something... but taking off from this last remark of Montavilla's, have others looked at this from the angle that, if Hermione came up with her scheme & performed the memory charm *without* her parents' consent, perhaps she did so because she feared they would REFUSE to go into hiding and/or allow their memories to be modified?  

(I'm "giving" on one point straight away, in that, yes, I do think that would mean Hermione was being arrogant about the issue; not a bad person, but arrogant about being the one who knew best.)

I guess when I first read the book, I assumed:

1) Hermione did NOT get their consent; 
2) She did act out of a belief that she knew best and wasn't sure her parents would agree or see her POV;
3) Her goal truly was to keep them safe; BUT
4) She was afraid if she didn't take the action without their knowledge, they would refuse and would try to either prevent her from going with Harry or go find her, which she believed would be very, very dangerous to them... and possibly to Harry

I'm not even getting into the rightness/wrongness of this possibility; I'm simply asking whether others think that perhaps this is likely?  That is, that Hermione acted as she did because she believed her parents WOULDN'T go into hiding and/or go along with her plan to accompany Harry?

Siriusly Snapey Susan


 





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Oct 20 18:03:00 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (Susan A)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:03:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hbk7ue+lqsu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbku0k+f805@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188179

Potioncat:
> I have a question. McGonagall tells the first years, "Each house 
> has its own noble history and each has produced outstanding witches 
> and wizards."
> 
> Did her speech convince you after what you had already read? Did
> you think one house was better? What do you think now? Do you think 
> McGonagall was sincere?


SSSusan:
Interesting question.  I suppose I felt that McGonagall was doing her best to be diplomatic. ;) 

Seriously, there *were* four founders, with four Houses remaining to the day, and I think we are meant to think that all four were outstanding in some particular way.  We might have to look back FARTHER or DEEPER to find the nobility of Slytherin, given how JKR has drawn the House in the 20th century, but I didn't have any problem believing that witches and wizards with great skill and ability, who made tremendous contributions to the Wizarding World, had been produced by each House.

I think JKR had always had the intention of having her readers identify primarily with (and therefore root for) Gryffindor and to have particular emotional or intellectual responses to those sweet duffers of Hufflepuff and the intellectuals of Ravenclaw, and to be suspicious of Slytherins.  Still, I don't think that I doubted that McGonagall was being truthful, at least historically.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Tue Oct 20 18:11:02 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:11:02 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <hbef82+65ub@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbkufm+5spf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188180



> Montavilla47:
> 
> At one point, Hermione complains about Ron complaining about the
> food, since she's the one who doing all the food preparation--
> including gathering mushrooms (although later on Ron and Harry
> pretend to be gathering blackberries in order to escape her).  I believe
> that she also complains because she's the only in the tent who 
> every does the washing up (i.e., washing the dishes).
> 
> Hermione is also shown doing laundering at the Burrow, and she's 
> told to change the linens in the guest bedrooms, while Ron and
> Harry are told to clean out the chicken shed.  Those sound like 
> traditional girl/boy chores to me.
> 
> But, yes, Hermione is also the one who casts all the protective
> spells--until some point (I forget exactly where), when Harry
> takes over the task.  It might be when Ron disappears and 
> Hermione is too emotionally distraught to do anything.

Marianne:

As usual I'm a few days behind, so forgive me if somebody else wrote this or wrote about it already.

DH. Hard Back American book.  P. 313

"The instant they arrived, Hermione dropped Harry's hand and walked away from him, finally sitting down on a large rock, her face on her knees, shaking with what he knew were sobs.  He watched her,supposing that he ought to go and comfort her..............  Harry strode off through the heather, walking in a large circle with the distraught Herminone at its center, casting the spells she usually preformed to ensure their protection."

I left some sentences out.




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 18:26:05 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:26:05 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her 
	parents
In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0910192255t3b5ced8ap81001c82d02bc202@mail.gmail.com>
References: <hbio4i+f4g8@eGroups.com> <hbiqsg+ht5v@eGroups.com>
	 <700201d40910191625p2cd0aaf0me6492ce32906e52e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <43e41d1e0910192255t3b5ced8ap81001c82d02bc202@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <700201d40910201126t1c014673s3fb0dc9d79373b43@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188181

> Lynda:
> I don't know about this attitude of arrogance.

Kemper now:
I agree.  I don't think arrogant is the best descriptor rather I think
of Hermione as condescendingly arbitrary.
I also love Carol's description:
thoughtlessly manipulative and unwittingly cruel.

> Lynda:
> I've asked some friends of
> mine, all of them HP lovers who have read the books a number of times but
> don't subscribe to any online forums what they think about what Hermione
> did, was it arrogant, altruistic, do they think there was precedent in the
> past behavior and in the actions of Voldemort at that time to warrant
> Hermione's actions and to the last person they said, No it did not show
> arrogance on Hermione's part, there was precedent for Hermione's actions and
> they don't get what the big deal with this is.

Kemper now:
When I bring it up to other avid fans, many feel Hermione acted in an
understanding manner too.  Most of those fans are not critical
analyzers of the text, our canon.  When I bring up Hermione's past
actions, the Wizard's cultural acceptance of memory wipes on Muggles,
and the deadly assumption that a memory wipe will keep Hermione and
her parents safe.  Their minds change.

> Lynda:
> One thing that's come up is did Hermione have her parents
> blessing/permission to do this and while on the face of it that would seem
> to be the way to go, on the other hand, is it really important that the
> readers know whether or not she did, or is it the same type of thing as is
> Professor McGonagall married and her spouse just not mentioned in the text?

Kemper now:
Professor McGonagall's marital status has no bearing on her character.
It's import for the readers to know that she received her permission
(or not) because it gets to her character.  If she received their
permission, it would show the reader that she at least asks permission
from someone.

Similarly, it would be important for the readers to know that
Slytherins played an active role in protecting Hogwarts in the final
battle when Slughorn came charging back with the towns folk.  But that
too is not in the books.  Sure, JKR later says they return but the
reader doesn't see it.  And we don't think to see it because the
Slytherin colors are noticeably absent from the Room of Requirement
according to Harry's perspective.  Had we seen colors in the RoR, I
think the reader would more likely assume that Slytherin student came
rushing back.  Or if JKR actually wrote the name of one or two, that
would be awesome too.  Perhaps the medium that must not be name will
fix that.


> Lynda:
> I think we sometimes assign motives and problems where there don't have to
> be any--I've mentioned that before. I think the old saying is to let
> sleeping dogs lie and that might be a good way to handle this type of thing,

Kemper now:
I think we sometimes deny motives and problems where they exist
because we're attached to a world view and to challenge that world
view would require some uncomfortable yet healthy change on our part.

Why should we never tickle a sleeping dragon for this?

Kemper



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 18:29:19 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:29:19 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry WAS: Hermione and her parents redux
In-Reply-To: <hbkqbe+fb8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbkvhv+196f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188182


Carol responds:
Actually, I agree one hundred percent with Potioncat's post. And when I said
that Snape wanted to punish Harry's ingratitude and arrogance, I meant that
Snape had finally had enough. After enduring Harry's taunts and deflecting his
curses, including a Crucio, without hurting him, and after trying to get in a
desperate last lesson about dueling DEs (use Occlumency and nonverbal spells!)
and after saving him from a Crucio and getting the DEs out of Hogwarts-- he
finally punished Harry with a minor spell that simultaneously disarms him and
hurts a little <SNIP>


Alla:

Yes, I know what you meant. What I meant was that by default IMO there could be no insolence and ingratitude here, because normal person or at least the way I view normal people cannot treat murderer any other way but with insolence and ingratitude at  least and with rage at most, at least when murder just occurred. It is unimaginable to me to say that Harry could have had any other behavior there therefore Snape **punishing Harry** no matter with how minor  hex it is Sadism, because there is nothing to punish Harry for in my opinion.

He does not know that what occurred here was not murder, he has no reason to believe that this was anything **but** murder, therefore wanting to cause him any sort of pain is sadistic to me.

Now, if Harry KNEW what plan Dumbledore and Snape cooked up and still taunted Snape, sure I would have said that HARRY behaved as sadist here in disregarding Snape's pain, but Harry has no clue, Snape however does and therefore he if he is not sadist, not supposed to cause pain to anybody else IMO.

Carol:
<SNIP>
But when Harry, in his own pain and anger, implies that Snape not only killed
Dumbledore but killed *James*, whom Snape hated but tried to protect once he
realized that the Prophecy involved Lily, Snape reaches the breaking point. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes and this is what sadistic to me, I mean one of the few instances when I can forgive his sadism, but I refuse to call it anything else but. Harry did nor order him to kill Dumbledore, it was all Dumbledore's doing and Snape's acceptance. Harry suffers already because of Snape and Snape has a nerve to add to his pain.
So basically to me in this situation Harry has every moral reason to taunt Snape and try to curse him and do whatever else. He is reacting to a murder for crying out loud, even if he does not know that it really was not a murderer.

Snape is aware of it perfectly well, yes he is hurting, so let's hurt Harry too, this is totally familiar to me Snape's mode of behavior, but totally despicable one as far as I am concerned.

Carol:
<SNIP>
My main point, though, is that the impulse, at the very end of the battle, to
punish Harry (if that's what he's doing) occurs when Snape is at the end of his
rope, desperate and tortured and furious. He can't tell Harry the truth. He can
only--like Harry himself, who is trying to punish Snape--take out his anger on
the boy he hates. The difference is that Snape is still trying to protect Harry,
that he has much more power than Harry but has refrained from using it, and that
he uses only a minor spell when he could easily have killed or tortured him or
used Sectumsempra. That he did none of those things ought to have been a clue to
Harry that Snape was not the murdering traitor he seemed to be, just as the
lessons he tried to teach ("No Unforgiveable Curses from you": "Close your mind
and your mouth") should have been a clue that he was trying to help Harry fight
as Dumbledore's man. (Snape himself never uses an Unforgiveable Curse other than
the AK on the Tower that we know of and uses Sectumsempra only against a
DE--though, unfortunately, he misses.) <SNIP>


Alla:

I completely disagree that the fact that Snape did any of those things ought to have to clue Harry in that Snape was not a murderer. He just killed somebody, and there is a perfectly logical explanation for all other things that he did or did not to, like that he wanted Voldemort to have Harry for himself for example. He killed Dumbledore, Harry treats him as murderer, if he did not desire to engage with Harry, I would think he would have run as fast as possible, but he did so much more than run.

JMO,

Alla






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 18:35:32 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:35:32 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbj9g4+u86k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbkvtk+c00p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188183



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol:
> And the simple expedient of asking them to move to Australia (or anywhere out of reach of the Death Eaters) would surely be sufficient to get them (voluntarily) out of harm's way. 
> 
> Pippin:
> That didn't save Sirius. 

Carol responds:
The situations aren't comparable. Sirius Black was trapped, partly through his own rashness in appearing in dog form on Platform 9 3/4 and partly through DD's orders, in a home that he hated. He chose to leave that hated safe place to save Harry.

The Grangers, in my scenario, would be in Australia (with their memories intact), safe from DEs and free to move wherever they liked. They would have no knowledge of what was happening to Hermione and certainly wouldn't rush home to save her as Sirius rushed to the MoM to save Harry (and vice versa) because they'd have no way of knowing that she was in danger or where she was or how to rescue her.

I've already pointed out that DEs couldn't make a video and show it on Muggle news, but even if they did, how are the Grangers supposed to find Azkaban and rescue her? The whole uncanonical scenario is absurd.

Hermione seems to think that the DEs might go after the Grangers *if they remained in England* for information about Harry (even though the most ignorant DE probably knows as much about Harry as the Grangers do) or information about Hermione herself if it's known that she's with Harry. All she needs to do to prevent that is to persuade them to go to a place with no DEs and where the extant DEs would be unlikely to go for a minor matter like torturing Hermione's Muggle parents for outdated information. There's no need for memory modification.

Yes, they'll be worried about their daughter, but parents of American soldiers in Afghanistan worry about their children, too, and no one places a memory charm (or whatever form of magic she performed on them). They endure the fear and anxiety resulting from their child's choice of joining the army because they must, and they sometimes endure the anguish of that child's death because they must. It's part of being a parent. But they also have the memory of that child, along with the photographs and other memorabilia, to comfort and console them. The child is still part of them and lives in their hearts and memories. It would be wrong and cruel to rob the Diggorys of their memories of Cedric. How is it right to rob the Grangers of their memories of Hermione? 

Pippin:
And unlike Harry at the MoM, Hermione going into danger is not a mistake that she can avoid.
> 
> If the Grangers know all this, then they realize that just disappearing or finding refuge in an Order safe house will not be enough. And the consequences would be worse, because they probably know things about Harry that no one but Hermione knows,  things that would put both Hermione and Harry in danger -- because anything that endangers Harry will endanger Hermione too. Voldemort would very much like to know, for example, that Harry's feelings for Ginny are  more serious than anyone suspects. 

Carol responds:
No one would know that they were in a safe house. Besides, the Dursleys know more about Harry than the Grangers would, and there's no indication that the DEs are going after them once the Order has protected them. The Weasleys, too, resort to safe houses protected by a Fidelius Charm (which Bill can somehow talk about to HRH even though he's not the Secret Keeper for Auntie Muriels' house).

Besides, I'm suggesting that they go to Australia on their own. True, she could put a Fidelius Charm on the Grangers' house in England, but they couldn't leave it and they'd starve to death. Australia, minus any modified memories or magical coercion, is better. And if the DEs do find them, which is extremely unlikely, modified memories won't protect them.

Pippin:

> Of course it would be cruel to lose the memories of a child. But how much crueller to live on, knowing that you might have done something to save that child and didn't do it? I think people are assuming that it wouldn't happen, since once Voldemort got the information he wanted the Grangers would be dead anyway. But what if he only captured one?

Carol responds:
There's no indication that the Grangers could have done something to save Hermione. She's ostensibly saving *them.* And if they *chose* to go to Australia, that's better than being coerced.

Imagine Hermione finding the Wilkinses or whatever their name is now in Australia and pointing a wand at them. Suddenly, they recognize her. "Hermione, what are you doing here? Where are we?"

"Oh, hi, Mum and Dad. Well, you see, you're in Australia because I made you think that you wanted to go here and I modified your memories. Check your IDs. You're Wendell and Monica Wilkins now."

"You did what?"

"I modified your memories and changed your identity to protect you."

"You didn't even consult us? What about our house? What about our dental practice? And what about our memories? What if you had died and we didn't even know it?"

"Oh, well, I thought it would be less painful for you that way."

"Well, let me tell you something, young lady. *We are your parents and we are capable of making our own decisions. You do not run our lives. Do you understand?"

Anyway, I don't think they'd be happy with their dear daughter. Nor would I be happy with her in their shoes.

And, yes, of course, I'm fully aware that this conversation is the product of my imagination and completely uncanonical. But so is speculation about DEs arranging a fake kidnapping to get the unimportant Grangers to come home and be tortured for nonexistant information.

Pippin:
> 
> It's not only Hermione who's weirdly selfish in the scenario we're discussing. It's the Grangers, who are made to care more about their memories of Hermione than about Hermione herself.  I can understand running into the burning house to save the baby pictures. But I can't understand why you'd save the pictures and leave the child inside. 

Carol:
I don't understand this argument. We don't see the Grangers, only Hermione's imagined reactions. Of course, they care more about Hermione herself than they do about their memories of her. But retaining their memories won't hurt her and having their memories wiped won't help her. They don't know anything useful about either her or Harry. Not even Hermione yet knows where they're going to be, and she certainly hasn't told them that she, Ron, and Harry are going Horcrux hunting. For all they know--or knew--she's going back to Hogwarts.

Pippin: 
> Also, I think people are overlooking the difficulty people who aren't used to a life of crime or subterfuge would have living in a foreign country under an assumed name. Illegal immigration and using false papers are serious crimes, you know. Voldemort's people will be saved quite a bit of work if Australia deports the Grangers for them.

Carol:
Whether that's true or not, and there's no indication that Hermione's magic would be detected by Muggle authorities whether or not they had their memories, it doesn't justify stealing their identities and memories. Why not put them under an Imperius Curse, robbed of their will and forced to do Hermione's bidding? I see no difference. 
> 
> 
> Carol:
>  And suppose that Hermione has overestimated her magical abilities? Suppose that she can't put them right even if she finds them? And even if she succeeds, if she didn't tell them what she was doing, how is she going to explain that she sent them to Australia "for their own good"? 
> 
> Pippin:
> Is that likely? Hermione apparently never learned riddikulus, but has she ever said she could do a spell and then not been able to do it? The only one that ever goes wrong for her is the polyjuice, and even then the magic worked just fine, though not with the results that Hermione intended.

Carol:
You forgot that she has trouble with the Patronus Charm. But this particular piece of magic is complicated and would be disastrous to get wrong. 

Pippin: 
> But I agree, it would be ridiculous for Hermione to think that she could ship her parents off to Australia, possibly for years, and then reinstate them in their old lives without their ever realizing that something had happened to them. Even if she could, it would change their relationship forever. Why would she risk that when there are perfectly logical reasons for them to do as she asks?

Carol:
Exactly. I'm glad we agree on that point.

Pippin: 
> These aren't students in the DA that she doesn't know very well, (if she had known them all, she wouldn't have needed a spell to tell her which ones might be disloyal). They aren't House Elves whose plight moves her not because she sees them suffer in their situation but because she is overwhelmed by guilt for profiting from it. 
> 
> These are her parents. She trusted them enough to tell them all those things about herself and Harry in the first place. The best thing about being a prefect is that it's something her parents can understand.  Their wishes meant enough to her that she  kept on with her braces even after she was sure she could do a tooth shrinking charm instead. Why put in those details, if JKR wants us to think their feelings aren't important to her? 

Carol:
I'm losing track of your argument. She was wrong, IMO, to curse the parchment without informing the DA members that she'd done so. She was wrong (and I think she finally realizes it) to try to free the House Elves against their will. She would be even more wrong to in essence brainwash and control her parents, actually modifying their minds in a way that's at least as great a violation as a prolonged Imperius Curse. If she understands and trusts them, she ought to discuss the matter with them, tell them that she'll be in greater danger than ever as a friend of Harry Potter and a Muggle-born and persuade them to go to Australia on their own, keeping their own minds and memories. They could discuss whether to keep their own names or have her magically (and undetectably) forge documents in assumed names.

It wouldn't be that hard to learn to call each other Monica and Wendell. It would be much harder to forgive their daughter for controlling their lives and destinies, treating them as mere Muggles unable to think for themselves.

If she trusts and respects her parents, she should let them choose to go or stay, to keep their own names or use an assumed one. She has no right to think for them or to perform magic on them, especially not magic that violates their minds and identities, without their consent. And no one in their right minds would consent to such magic.

Carol, who thinks that neither JKR nor Hermione considered the consequences of this unnecessary plot device





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 18:37:52 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:37:52 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbksfa+467h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbl020+c5ce@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188184

> Montavilla47:
> > Or, [Hermione] just goes ahead and [non-Memory Charms] her parents 
> > without having to go through
> > the trouble of convincing them or asking any questions about her
> > competency.  She just waves her wand.
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> I guess when I first read the book, I assumed:
> 
> 1) Hermione did NOT get their consent; 
> 2) She did act out of a belief that she knew best and wasn't sure her parents would agree or see her POV;
> 3) Her goal truly was to keep them safe; BUT
> 4) She was afraid if she didn't take the action without their knowledge, they would refuse and would try to either prevent her from going with Harry or go find her, which she believed would be very, very dangerous to them... and possibly to Harry
> 
> I'm not even getting into the rightness/wrongness of this possibility; I'm simply asking whether others think that perhaps this is likely?  That is, that Hermione acted as she did because she believed her parents WOULDN'T go into hiding and/or go along with her plan to accompany Harry?
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan
>

Montavilla47:

I agree with you on all four counts.  That was my entry point 
into the discussion.  I'm really *not* all that concerned about
the  rightness or wrongness of what she did.   (At least, not
for the purposes of this discussion...)

To my mind, it only makes sense for Hermione to go to the
trouble of whatever it was that she did (since it wasn't a 
Memory Charm) if her parents weren't going to agree to move
to Australia.  If they were likely to agree to that drastic a 
step, then they could do so without having their memories
altered.

And, arguably, it would be safer for them that way, since
they would be quicker to recognize any signs of being
followed or spied on--like someone walking into their
practice looking like they just stepped out of a Renfair.

Why JKR thought this was a good plan, I really don't know.
It obviously doesn't bother some readers, but it does 
bother some.  And if Hermione had simply said, "The Order
put them into a safe house--like your relatives, Harry," we
wouldn't need to have this discussion at all.

So... I guess my question would be, what do people 
think this moment really says about Hermione as a 
character?

To me, it says that Hermione thinks ahead, doesn't 
trust others, and thinks she has both the right and the
obligation to make decisions for her Muggle parents.

And I have to say, she does sound a lot like Dumbledore.












From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 18:48:14 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:48:14 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbkvtk+c00p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbl0le+s9cb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188185

Carol:
<SNIP>
Yes, they'll be worried about their daughter, but parents of American soldiers
in Afghanistan worry about their children, too, and no one places a memory charm
(or whatever form of magic she performed on them). They endure the fear and
anxiety resulting from their child's choice of joining the army because they
must, and they sometimes endure the anguish of that child's death because they
must. It's part of being a parent. But they also have the memory of that child,
along with the photographs and other memorabilia, to comfort and console them.
The child is still part of them and lives in their hearts and memories. It would
be wrong and cruel to rob the Diggorys of their memories of Cedric. How is it
right to rob the Grangers of their memories of Hermione? <SNIP>


Alla:

But what if the reason to rob the parents of the child of the memories is because this child is an intelligence agent and the parents can spill the information that can help in capturing and killing this child? It is honestly hard for me to imagine that parent would refuse to forget the child (hopefully temporarily) to prevent child's death, even if the chance of such death is not 100%. I already said that I would do it if there is ANY chance that my niece and nephew's life is being threatened and I know information that can help to capture and kill them, but hey, I asked their parents. They were wondering if I was loosing my mind that I even asked such a question. The answer was that of course they do not want to forget their kids, but if that would help saving their lives, there is only one answer ? unequivocal yes, no matter how horrible and painful it will be for them in the minute before such charm is performed.

Granted, it is not a statistical poll and I only asked one set of parents who are my family members, but that definitely tell me that no, not every parent will disagree to forget their child if there is a chance that it may help their child to live.

I agree that it will be wrong to rob Diggorys of the memory of dead Cedric, but if it will help Cedric survive in some other scenario, I disagree that it is wrong. I mean it is a choice of two evils, horrible, painful, but I would say that it is a right choice if situation so requires. IMO of course.


Pippin:

> Of course it would be cruel to lose the memories of a child. But how much
crueller to live on, knowing that you might have done something to save that
child and didn't do it? I think people are assuming that it wouldn't happen,
since once Voldemort got the information he wanted the Grangers would be dead
anyway. But what if he only captured one?

Carol responds:
<SNIP>
There's no indication that the Grangers could have done something to save
Hermione. She's ostensibly saving *them.* And if they *chose* to go to
Australia, that's better than being coerced. <SNIP>

Alla:

I disagree. I believe that she is also preventing them from telling whatever "a lot about Harry" she told them and that to me may help lure Hermione and Harry out of hiding.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 19:08:17 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:08:17 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbl0le+s9cb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbl1r1+hkd6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188186

Carol earlier:
> <SNIP>
> There's no indication that the Grangers could have done something to save
> Hermione. She's ostensibly saving *them.* And if they *chose* to go to
> Australia, that's better than being coerced. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I disagree. I believe that she is also preventing them from telling whatever "a lot about Harry" she told them and that to me may help lure Hermione and Harry out of hiding.

Carol responds:
But what could Hermione have told her parents about Harry that Voldemort didn't already know, either because it was common knowledge in the WW or because Wormtail or Snape giving what seemed to be valuable information or Bellatrix after the MoM had already told him or from his own experience with Harry?

Voldemort would know who Harry's best friends were, what his magical skills and weaknesses were, that he used Expelliarmus a lot, that he was good at Quidditch and played Seeker. He would know, as the Grangers probably didn't, that Harry's Patronus was a stag. About the only information that the Grangers might have been able to provide that LV didn't already know was that he loved Ginny.

But the DEs and LV wouldn't care about any of this. All they would want to know was Harry's whereabouts (which they discover twice through his use of the name Voldemort). No need to torture the Grangers for outdated and useless information.

Nevertheless, I agree that Hermione feared that her parents might be tortured if they remained in England (outside a safe house). At the very least, the DEs would use the excuse that Hermione was a missing and unregistered Muggle-born who might or might not have been with Harry Potter. So, yes, the Grangers themselves were in danger. But robbing them of their memories of their daughter would not have saved them from torture if they were found and would in no way have protected Hermione or Harry, as we see in DH in the cafe, with the Snatchers and in Malfoy Manor, and in Hogsmeade/Hogwarts after the Gringotts break-in. In all cases, Harry reveals his own presence through his own words and actions. And, of course, there's Godric's Hollow, to which Voldemort rightly guessed that he would return.

Nothing that the Grangers knew could have helped the DEs to find Harry. LV knew all that they needed to know of Harry's psychology and habits to find him eventually. No need for the Muggle Grangers, who don't even know Harry, to reveal something new. Just wait for Harry to say the name "Voldemort" or otherwise show his hand.

Carol, still convinced that Hermione's action can't be justified except in the unlikely event that her parents agreed to it





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 19:22:58 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:22:58 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbl1r1+hkd6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbl2mi+eq43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188187



> Carol responds:
> But what could Hermione have told her parents about Harry that Voldemort didn't already know, either because it was common knowledge in the WW or because Wormtail or Snape giving what seemed to be valuable information or Bellatrix after the MoM had already told him or from his own experience with Harry?
> 
> Voldemort would know who Harry's best friends were, what his magical skills and weaknesses were, that he used Expelliarmus a lot, that he was good at Quidditch and played Seeker. He would know, as the Grangers probably didn't, that Harry's Patronus was a stag. About the only information that the Grangers might have been able to provide that LV didn't already know was that he loved Ginny.
> 
> But the DEs and LV wouldn't care about any of this. All they would want to know was Harry's whereabouts (which they discover twice through his use of the name Voldemort). No need to torture the Grangers for outdated and useless information.
><SNIP>

Alla:
I do not think that we need to come up with every possible detail as to what exactly Hermione told them about Harry that may help Voldemort to catch them. I think that the umbrella of **told them a lot about Harry** covers a lot of things that we may not even guess that Voldemort will use against them.

Anything, any detail, any small fact can give DE a clue how to catch them IMO. And they will not care about Harry loving Ginny? Same as Voldemort did not care to use Sirius against Harry?

I think it will be perfect idea for them to use Ginny as a bait, IMO of course. But again, I do not think the list of what she told them is needed, as long as we know that she told them a lot, that to me **already** a reason to say that yes, her parents can be used against her and Harry.

Just as I think that DE having trouble finding  and using Muggle camera to fake Hermione's kidnapping is not a reason to discard the possibility that they will do so. We know that Voldemort was very resourceful in the first war to put discord and enmity to murder people (even if we did not see much of such resourcefulness lol). I think that it is very very possible that DE will figure out to use muggle camera, because what they have to do with it is so important for them.

It is as if somebody would tell me that if I would be given a chance to visit a bookstore and would be given a great book for free, but to get this book I will have to learn how to, I don't know, knit. Trust me, I will do my best to learn, it is not rocket science. I would think to get Harry DE would learn how to use muggle camera if needed.

JMO,

Alla





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 19:23:38 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:23:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her
 parents
In-Reply-To: <20783574.1255966005696.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <20783574.1255966005696.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADE0E3A.7080403@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188188


> Magpie:
> I'm not saying that Voldemort couldn't have. I'm saying that in the book--which is the whole story--JKR wasn't going there so I think it was a bad idea to throw in something that's as disturbing to some readers as Hermione memory charming them to explain some big protection that never has any payoff anyway. 
>   
rick:
I disagree.  By DH the DE's had driven the entire Weasley family into 
hiding (except Percy), kidnapped Luna, and tried to kidnap Neville's 
granny.  Clearly they were working in Muggleville as well, hence the 
deaths, train wrecks and bridge collapse.  What made the Weasleys a 
target?  Ron was with HP & Ginny was working inside Hogwarts.  What made 
Luna a target?  She and her father openly supported HP.  What made 
Granns a target?  Neville was carrying on HP's work inside Hogwarts.

Hg's parents didn't have to know anything for the DEs to use them to 
torture the Trio into the open or at least to force Hg to give herself 
up to save her parents. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 19:26:10 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:26:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding
 Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <33385450.1255990039480.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <33385450.1255990039480.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADE0ED2.5090501@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188189


> Geoff:
>
> As one example, the transition from Hogwarts to the Auror training 
> scheme echoes this type of educational route in the Wizarding World.
>   
But other than this single exception, there doesn't seem to be any 
canonical evidence of upper level education in the WW. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 19:46:05 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:46:05 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <14850080.1255994561057.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <14850080.1255994561057.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADE137D.2010308@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188190


> bboyminn:
>
> But you assume the only choices are one world or the other, 
> I suspect there are many who live quite comfortably in both
> worlds. 
>   
rick:
You may suspect it, but the canon has scant facts to confirm your 
suspicion.  Ms. Figg, the Squib, is the only person we know for sure 
lives among the muggles.  Mr. W, a mugglephile if there ever was one, 
has to study them second hand, collecting artifacts like plugs and 
trying to puzzle out their meaning and use and quizzing HP about rubber  
ducks.  Even though he's involved policing the misuse of muggle 
artifacts, he is more a muggle archaeologist. 

The Secrecy Statute would seemed to have driven a wedge between the two 
worlds and, therefore, the WW into hiding centuries before.  An 
inconsistency not explained by the canon, however, is the number of 
Wizard/Muggle marriages.  At one point in DH TDL talks about how the two 
worlds were driven apart (witch hunts & later the SS) and the WW into 
hiding and how he's going to return the WW to it's place in the open. 

> bboyminn:
> As to washing clothes, you can simply charm them clean; no 
> waste, no water, no pollution, no energy resources.
>   
rick:
But it's all a JKR joke. She's playing with Clarke's Third Law "Any 
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  
Since electricity will not work correctly in the presence of magic (Hg 
quoting H, a History), the WW is left cobbling together crude & clumsy 
makeshift simulations of modern conveniences. 

Wash and spin dry in a washer automatically or crank up an antique 
washer complete with ringer (a mangle in the book) and do each piece 
individually? 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 19:53:15 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:53:15 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <10440721.1256058821584.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <10440721.1256058821584.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADE152B.3030002@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188191


> SSSusan:
> First off, I don't question at all your position that Hermione could have had quite a successful and fulfilling life in the Muggle world.  
>
> OTOH, I want to think more about whether I agree that her life in the WW was "not as rewarding a life" as she could have had in the MW.  I'm just not sure that's so.  That really, imo, depends upon how one defines 'fulfilling' and must, imo, take into account what each individual would want or need in order to call his/her life 'fulfilling.'  
>   
rick;
Well, she was a child of the internet cast back into 1945 to live.  
(Interestingly, Binn's history of magic textbook is published in 
1945--at least the edition cited in the footnote of Fantastic 
Creatures).  Unlike HP, she was loved, well cared for, and I'm sure her 
parents had expectations for her education and career.  So she ends up a 
magical Please-Man.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 19:56:41 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:56:41 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding 
	Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbkvtk+c00p@eGroups.com>
References: <hbj9g4+u86k@eGroups.com> <hbkvtk+c00p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <700201d40910201256l5bd870d7kcca240605d8c9a90@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188192

> Carol responds:
> Imagine Hermione finding the Wilkinses or whatever their name is now in Australia and pointing a wand at them. Suddenly, they recognize her. "Hermione, what are you doing here? Where are we?"
> ...snip...
> "I modified your memories and changed your identity to protect you."
> "You didn't even consult us? What about our house? What about our dental practice? And what about our memories? What if you had died and we didn't even know it?"

Kemper now:
You give Hermione too much credit.  When she returned their memories,
I think she would alter a memory where they remember giving
permission.  It would be easier than telling them the truth and less
painful.  :D

Going to I think Pippin's comment somewhere upthread that it would be
selfish of a parent not to do whatever it takes to save life.  And my
apologies to Pippin if I'm misquoting or remembering the statement
wrong.

If my child were to enlist in the US service currently, it would be
wrong of me to kidnap him/her and move to beautiful Canada.  It's
their choice.

If I were Hermione's parent and she explained that the info she gave
me could jeopardize her life and she asked me to go in for a memory
wipe, I would tell her no.  It is her choice for enlisting with Harry,
my memories should not be consequenced for her choice.

Kemper



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 20:02:51 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:02:51 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <700201d40910201256l5bd870d7kcca240605d8c9a90@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbl51b+f6pn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188193

Kemper:
>> If my child were to enlist in the US service currently, it would be
> wrong of me to kidnap him/her and move to beautiful Canada.  It's
> their choice.

Alla:

Sure.

Kemper: 
> If I were Hermione's parent and she explained that the info she gave
> me could jeopardize her life and she asked me to go in for a memory
> wipe, I would tell her no.  It is her choice for enlisting with Harry,
> my memories should not be consequenced for her choice.

Alla:

Wow. I respect your choice, but this is something I would never be able to understand. What if Hermione was drafted in the army, thus having no choice whatsoever in the matter, would your choice still be the same?

You would rather keep your memories of the child who will be dead because of your choice than to give them up to keep her alive?

Do you really think that Hermione had much choice in the matter by the way?

Oh granted she could not resist Voldemort, this is a choice too, but if she did not want to let evil maniac to take over?

I mean certainly she made some choice, but I guess to me this is the only choice decent person could made and for that her parents will punish her with increasing chances of her death?






From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 20:30:41 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:30:41 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding 
	Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbl51b+f6pn@eGroups.com>
References: <700201d40910201256l5bd870d7kcca240605d8c9a90@mail.gmail.com>
	 <hbl51b+f6pn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <700201d40910201330k1bbae190u1af12b926fcf341a@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188194

> Kemper:
> > If I were Hermione's parent and she explained that the info she gave
> > me could jeopardize her life and she asked me to go in for a memory
> > wipe, I would tell her no. It is her choice for enlisting with Harry,
> > my memories should not be consequenced for her choice.

> Alla:
> Wow. I respect your choice, but this is something I would never be able to understand. What if Hermione was drafted in the army, thus having no choice whatsoever in the matter, would your choice still be the same?

Kemper now:
Hmm... the draft.  If everyone (male/female, gay/straight,
senators/representative's sons/daughters) were drafted, I would have
no problem.  I believe everyone should serve their country.  So if
everyone was drafted, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  However, as
that's not the case, if she didn't want to go because its a bullshit
war, I'd support her.

> Alla:
> You would rather keep your memories of the child who will be dead because of your choice than to give them up to keep her alive?

Kemper now:
It is a possibility that she might die.  But that possibility exists
with or without my memories.

> Alla:
> Do you really think that Hermione had much choice in the matter by the way?

Kemper now:
Yes.  She is intelligent but takes the easy route in difficult
situations.  What is right is not always easy.

> Alla:
> Oh granted she could not resist Voldemort, this is a choice too, but if she did not want to let evil maniac to take over?

Kemper now:
Alla, could you rephrase this question, please.  Thanks!

> Alla:
> I mean certainly she made some choice, but I guess to me this is the only choice decent person could made and for that her parents will punish her with increasing chances of her death?

Kemper now:
it has anything to do with decency.  A good parent (friend or other
family member) holds their child accountable to their actions.  It's
what helps them become better citizens of the world.  Hermione's
priority is to help Harry defeat the Dark Lord and not to stay with
her me (her theoretical parent in this situation) and her mom to
protect us Muggles from the Dark Lords great terror.  That's her
choice.  I respect and understand it.  I shouldn't be punished for it.

Okay... I think I'm approaching my posting limit.  :D

Kemper



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 20:57:30 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:57:30 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <700201d40910201330k1bbae190u1af12b926fcf341a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbl87q+odl2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188195

Alla:
> You would rather keep your memories of the child who will be dead because of
your choice than to give them up to keep her alive?

Kemper now:
It is a possibility that she might die. But that possibility exists
with or without my memories.


Alla:

My question is what if you know that the possibility that she might die will be significantly less if you give up your memories?


Alla:
> Do you really think that Hermione had much choice in the matter by the way?

Kemper now:
Yes. She is intelligent but takes the easy route in difficult
situations. What is right is not always easy.


Alla:

I meant do you think she had much choice in whether to follow Harry on the path of Voldemort's resistance? This is an easy choice?


> Alla:
> Oh granted she could not resist Voldemort, this is a choice too, but if she
did not want to let evil maniac to take over?

Kemper now:
Alla, could you rephrase this question, please. Thanks!
	
Alla:

Sorry, this was an awkward phrasing for sure. It was not even a question, what I was saying is that I can see Hermione's choice as following : to resist Voldemort or NOT resist Voldemort. To resist Voldemort to me means helping Harry to win. So what I was saying is that I see her only other choice is to not resist and that to me is not a choice of decent person. Would you prefer 


Kemper now:
it has anything to do with decency. A good parent (friend or other
family member) holds their child accountable to their actions. It's
what helps them become better citizens of the world. Hermione's
priority is to help Harry defeat the Dark Lord and not to stay with
her me (her theoretical parent in this situation) and her mom to
protect us Muggles from the Dark Lords great terror. That's her
choice. I respect and understand it. I shouldn't be punished for it.

Alla:
It is just not possible for me to understand that parent would put their desires over possible death of their child. We are not talking about buying child a new toy, we are talking about their possible death.

Choices? What if such child made totally wrong choice and now you all are facing a dilemma with your memories or her death?  I mean how you are helping your child become better citizen if they will be dead?

You are talking about yourself being punished, but it seems to me that your child is facing so much stronger punishment?

Ah, so would it be fair to say that you would have preferred Hermione to stay with you? Thus you think her choice is wrong and you refuse to support her in that? 

To me in the face of child's death any talks about whatever brought it being her choice are off, I find the idea letting her face it if I can help totally impossible to understand.



JMO,

Alla








From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 21:44:08 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:44:08 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding 
	Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbl87q+odl2@eGroups.com>
References: <700201d40910201330k1bbae190u1af12b926fcf341a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <hbl87q+odl2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <700201d40910201444j2c1f5545ub90d8653c4e5ee5b@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188196

> Kemper earlier:
> It is a possibility that she might die. But that possibility exists
> with or without my memories.
>
> Alla:
> My question is what if you know that the possibility that she might die will be significantly less if you give up your memories?

Kemper now:
No.  I don't see it as less.  The possibility of her death remains
constant with our without my memories.


> Alla:
> I meant do you think she had much choice in whether to follow Harry on the path of Voldemort's resistance? This is an easy choice?

Kemper now:
She believes in Harry and a wizarding world that is more inclusive of
other beings.  Her path lies with Harry.  It's an easy choice for her.

> Alla:
> ... I can see Hermione's choice as following : to resist Voldemort or NOT resist Voldemort. To resist Voldemort to me means helping Harry to win. So what I was saying is that I see her only other choice is to not resist and that to me is not a choice of decent person. Would you prefer

Kemper now:
Her choices are many, but what she's focused on is Harry secondarily
protecting her family.  She would still be a decent person for
sticking with her family.  Harry and Ron wouldn't think any ill of
her.

> Alla:
> It is just not possible for me to understand that parent would put their desires over possible death of their child. We are not talking about buying child a new toy, we are talking about their possible death.

Kemper now:
In the situation that we are discussing, the possibility doesn't
change with or without my memories.
There are a gazillion circumstances where I put my desires aside.
This isn't one of them.

> Alla:
> Choices? What if such child made totally wrong choice and now you all are facing a dilemma with your memories or her death? I mean how you are helping your child become better citizen if they will be dead?

Kemper now:
I don't understand the circumstance in which I face the immediacy of
her death or my memories.  That doesn't seem what's going on in the
text.

> Alla:
> You are talking about yourself being punished, but it seems to me that your child is facing so much stronger punishment?

Kemper now:
I don't see it like that.  She is already at risk based on her choice
to be with Harry.  She is not less at risk with my memory gone.  Nor
is she more at risk with it in tact.  To give up my memory would
satisfy her selfish need to feel better about a shitty situation.  Eff
that.

> Alla:
> Ah, so would it be fair to say that you would have preferred Hermione to stay with you? Thus you think her choice is wrong and you refuse to support her in that?

Kemper now:
I think as her parent I would love for her to be with us in Australia,
but it's a selfish need on my part because I know I would be keeping
her from what I see as part of her mission in life.  I would miss her
and it would be hard.
But at least I'm in Australia.  Awesome!

> Alla:
> To me in the face of child's death any talks about whatever brought it being her choice are off, I find the idea letting her face it if I can help totally impossible to understand.

Kemper now:
In immediate life threatening situation, Hermione's folks and I would
do whatever to save her life.
That circumstance is not at play in the home of the Grangers when
their memories were wiped.

jmo,
Kemper



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Oct 20 22:01:36 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:01:36 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <4ADE0ED2.5090501@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hblc00+r6nl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188197



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> > As one example, the transition from Hogwarts to the Auror training 
> > scheme echoes this type of educational route in the Wizarding World.

Rick:   
> But other than this single exception, there doesn't seem to be any 
> canonical evidence of upper level education in the WW. 

Geoff:
In OOTP, Chapter 29 "Careers Advice" makes reference to a number of 
post-Hogwarts training courses. Those mentioned are Healing, Muggle 
Relations, Banking careers with Gringotts, Training security trolls and 
"several booklets on careers with the Ministry of Magic.

As the readers of the pamphlets in the Gryffindor common room observe, 
the academic qualifications vary in difficulty but they are all Further
 Education courses in UK terms for students at 18+.

This section is on pp.578/79 of the book in the UK editions.





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 20 22:10:58 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:10:58 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbl2mi+eq43@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hblchi+b153@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188198

> Alla:
> I do not think that we need to come up with every possible detail as to what exactly Hermione told them about Harry that may help Voldemort to catch them. I think that the umbrella of **told them a lot about Harry** covers a lot of things that we may not even guess that Voldemort will use against them.

Montavilla47:
I'm going to agree with you here.  I don't think we need
to question whether or not Hermione told them something
valuable.  Let's go ahead and assume that she did.

Alla: 
> Anything, any detail, any small fact can give DE a clue how to catch them IMO. And they will not care about Harry loving Ginny? Same as Voldemort did not care to use Sirius against Harry?
> 
> I think it will be perfect idea for them to use Ginny as a bait, IMO of course. But again, I do not think the list of what she told them is needed, as long as we know that she told them a lot, that to me **already** a reason to say that yes, her parents can be used against her and Harry.
> 

Montavilla47:
Now that's an excellent thing they could use.  Not that 
they do--since the *entire* school was talking about 
Ginny and Harry in HBP (K-I-S-S-I-N-G).  They didn't
need to ask the Grangers about that.  Draco could have 
told them.  And, if he felt reluctant about endangering
a fellow student, then I'm sure Pansy Parkinson would 
have been delighted to pass on school gossip to either
one of the Professors Carrow.

But you know what?  They didn't even ask.  All those
students who spent months and months with Harry
Potter for six whole years.  Including the two who 
slept in the same room with him.

But, you're right.  We don't need to know what the 
DE's might have wanted from the Grangers that they
didn't think they could get from the Weasleys or the 
hundreds of other students at Hogwarts.  It's enough
to know that Hermione thought they knew something
important and that Voldemort might want to question
them about it.

Alla:
> Just as I think that DE having trouble finding  and using Muggle camera to fake Hermione's kidnapping is not a reason to discard the possibility that they will do so. We know that Voldemort was very resourceful in the first war to put discord and enmity to murder people (even if we did not see much of such resourcefulness lol). I think that it is very very possible that DE will figure out to use muggle camera, because what they have to do with it is so important for them.

Montavilla47:
I don't think it's very likely, since people like Arthur--
who loves Muggle inventions--are terrible at figuring
out what they do and how to work them.  

More importantly, it's completely outside the actual story. 
So, to make that possibility an important part of Hermione's 
thought process is to bring in something irrelevant.

Alla:
> It is as if somebody would tell me that if I would be given a chance to visit a bookstore and would be given a great book for free, but to get this book I will have to learn how to, I don't know, knit. Trust me, I will do my best to learn, it is not rocket science. I would think to get Harry DE would learn how to use muggle camera if needed.
> 

Montavilla47:
It's more like someone were to ask you to knit in a very
specific style--in symbols that can only be understood 
by the people who regularly use those stitches.

Knitting isn't rocket science, but someone who 
deals with knitwork on a regular basis would know in 
an instant if you tried to fake an authentic folkstyle.

Continuing with that analogy of the Grangers
as a book that the Death Eaters would want to read,
Hermione has changed all the type to invisible ink, 
I suppose.  Now, there are a limited number of 
invisible inks and those who are trained to detect them
would certainly try their best to bring the words back
and probably would succeed.

And even if they didn't, they'd still tear out all the
pages trying.  

Which is what would happen to the Grangers if they
were found--regardless of whether or not Hermione
non-Memory-Charmed them.  






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Oct 20 22:09:28 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:09:28 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <4ADE137D.2010308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hblceo+i8vk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188199



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:

bboyminn:
> >
> > But you assume the only choices are one world or the other, 
> > I suspect there are many who live quite comfortably in both
> > worlds. 

rick:
> You may suspect it, but the canon has scant facts to confirm your 
> suspicion.  Ms. Figg, the Squib, is the only person we know for sure 
> lives among the muggles.  

Geoff:
In the first chapter of HBP ("The Other minister") the discussion between 
Fudge and the British PM includes a reference to the murders of Amelia 
Bones and Emmeline Vance. The PM knows abut these murders which 
have been investigated by the police; the former certainly appeared to 
live in a Muggle district. (p.19 UK edition)

Then Scrimgeour reveals in his conversation that Kingsley Shacklebolt 
is one of the Prime Minister's secretaries, which implies that, even if he 
doesn't live in Muggle London, he must be in and out very frequently.
(ibid. pp.22/23)




From sweenlit at gmail.com  Tue Oct 20 23:21:47 2009
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:21:47 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her 
	parents
In-Reply-To: <4ADE0E3A.7080403@gmail.com>
References: <20783574.1255966005696.JavaMail.root@n11>
	 <4ADE0E3A.7080403@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e0910201621m382e1cenadd3c9f076bc2f37@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188200

Kemper now:
I think we sometimes deny motives and problems where they exist
because we're attached to a world view and to challenge that world
view would require some uncomfortable yet healthy change on our part.

Why should we never tickle a sleeping dragon for this?

Lynda:

Perhaps we do. I like to use my imagination when I read, so I do not have to
have every thread neatly ended for me. I can imagine that Hermione did
indeed tell her parents she was going to take extreme measures to protect
them before doing so while my best friend says there's no way she would have
done that before hand.
I can imagine that  Professor McGonagall goes home to a spouse during school
vacations and etc. etc. etc. If I didn't use my imagination when I read, I
could just watch tv instead of reading when I'm home, but I like the freedom
of reading for that possibility of different outcomes.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From xellina at gmail.com  Wed Oct 21 00:49:34 2009
From: xellina at gmail.com (Cassy Ferris)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:49:34 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <hblceo+i8vk@eGroups.com>
References: <4ADE137D.2010308@gmail.com> <hblceo+i8vk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <463f9ec00910201749u523f3277s89877fcf3375a30d@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188201

2009/10/20 Geoff <gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk>
>
>
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:
>
> In the first chapter of HBP ("The Other minister") the discussion between
> Fudge and the British PM includes a reference to the murders of Amelia
> Bones and Emmeline Vance. The PM knows abut these murders which
> have been investigated by the police; the former certainly appeared to
> live in a Muggle district. (p.19 UK edition)
>

Cassy:

Snape also shown to spend summers in a muggle town in HBP and had he
been killed (by Bella, on her visit, say), he's death would be
investigated by the police. Still, it doesn't mean that he could have
supported himself living in a muggle world. We don't know much about
circumstances of Bones and Vance murders, they could have been found
just laying in a street, which would also cause the police to get
involved.



From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Oct 21 02:41:59 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:41:59 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents redux WAS:Re: Wizarding
 Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <4ADE0ED2.5090501@gmail.com>
References: <33385450.1255990039480.JavaMail.root@n11> <4ADE0ED2.5090501@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ADE74F7.9040402@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188202

Geoff
>> As one example, the transition from Hogwarts to the Auror training 
>> scheme echoes this type of educational route in the Wizarding World.
>>   
>>     
Rick:
> But other than this single exception, there doesn't seem to be any 
> canonical evidence of upper level education in the WW. 

Bart:
    The examples I've seen in the books point to some sort of on-the-job 
training, like an apprenticeship, for various careers.

    Bart

   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 03:29:16 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:29:16 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <700201d40910201444j2c1f5545ub90d8653c4e5ee5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hblv6c+it69@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188203





> Kemper now:
> No.  I don't see it as less.  The possibility of her death remains
> constant with our without my memories.<SNIP>
> 
Kemper now:
I don't understand the circumstance in which I face the immediacy of
her death or my memories. That doesn't seem what's going on in the
text.<SNIP>


Alla:

I think in these two sentences is the crust of our disagreement. You do not seem to think that you as Hermione's imaginary parent can be used as a sitting duck by Voldemort to lure Hermione and her friends out of hiding and into Voldemort's hands, right? To me it is what would have happened had Hermione not done what she did. I of course cannot argue that it is what would have necessarily happened, but to me it is pretty clear that you without memories are significantly less likely to give to Voldemort the information about Harry that Hermione told her parents and which could have helped Voldie find the clue how to set up a trap.

I guess we are at stalemate and I have to quit this discussion at least for now, because to me this is a pretty obvious consequence and obviously you are on the opposite end, I just do not see any common points in our views on this one.

Till next time Kemper :-)

Alla





From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Wed Oct 21 03:52:32 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:52:32 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
Message-ID: <d5d.4c2977b8.380fdf80@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188204

In a message dated 10/20/2009 8:22:22 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
xellina at gmail.com writes:
 
 
Xelina writes:
 

We  don't know much about
circumstances of Bones and Vance murders, they could  have been found
just laying in a street, which would also cause the police  to get
involved.


We do know of the Bones murder from HBp.  She was found in a room that  was 
locked from the from the inside.  
 
Melissa
 
 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 04:11:12 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 04:11:12 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
Message-ID: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188205

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
(minus that extra space)

 CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone
Chapter Eight, The Potions Master

For the first time, Harry experiences the finger pointing and whispering that he will encounter throughout his years at Hogwarts. Rather than feeling flattered by this attention, he finds it distracting. He's more with finding his way to his classes amid 142 moving staircases, some of them with vanishing steps, ghosts gliding down the corridors, and Peeves the Poltergeist, not to mention Filch and his cat, Mrs. Norris. Harry attends his classes for the first time and we glimpse some of his teachers and classes, including one taught by a ghost, and we learn that he has Astronomy lessons every Wednesday night at midnight though we never see that class. Harry and his friends are disappointed by Defense Against the Dark Arts. Quirrell's classroom and turban smell like garlic, and he appears to be afraid of the very creatures he's supposed to be teaching them about. Quirrell also happens to be passing by when Harry and Ron get lost and try to force their way through the door to the out-of-bounds third-floor corridor.

On Friday, Harry has his first Potions lesson. He has already encountered Snape during the opening banquet when Snape's glance appeared to make his scar hurt. Now Ron tells him that Snape is head of Slytherin House and reputedly favors the Slytherins. Snape pauses at Harry's name as he calls the roll, referring to him as "our new celebrity." He ends a dramatic and poetic speech about Potions with a remark about "dunderheads" and then asks Harry three questions, none of which Harry can answer, refusing to acknowledge Hermione's raised hand. After giving Harry the answers and ordering everyone to write them down, he takes a point from Gryffindor for Harry's "cheek" in suggesting that he call on Hermione and puts the students in pairs to make a simple potion to cure boils. When Neville somehow manages to melt his partner Seamus's cauldron and covering his nose with boils, Snape Vanishes the spilled potion, sends Neville to the hospital wing, and deducts another point from Harry for not telling Neville to take the cauldron off the fire before adding the porcupine quills. Harry leaves the class wondering why Snape hates him so much.

But the day isn't a complete loss. Harry accepts Hagrid's invitation to tea, taking Ron with him. They meet Fang and encounter Hagrid's notorious rock cakes. Hagrid tells Harry not to worry about Snape, who likes hardly any students. Then, as Hagrid and Ron chat about Charlie Weasley's work with dragons, Harry picks up a Daily Prophet and discovers that the Gringotts break-in occurred on the very day that he and Hagrid visited Gringotts. Harry leaves Hagrid's hut wondering whether Hagrid knows something about both the attempted robbery and Severus Snape that he's withholding from Harry.



Questions for Discussion:

1. Harry's Astronomy class is mentioned here for the first and last time before the Astronomy OWL in OoP. Why do you think that the class takes place so late despite the rule that no students should be in the corridors after hours? Do you think that all of the first-years have Astronomy together or is this class another attended by Gryffindors only? Do all the Astronomy classes take place at midnight, and, if so, how does Professor Sinistra fit seven (or more) midnight classes into her schedule?

2. Harry takes five core subjects?Herbology, Potions, Charms, Transfiguration, and Defense Against the Dark Arts, along with History of Magic and Astronomy. What do you think of this set of classes for a group of eleven-year-old novice witches and wizards? Which class (setting aside the instructors since we barely glimpse any of them except Snape) would be your favorite and why?

3. Why do you think that Quirrell's turban and classroom smell like garlic? Did his blushing and confusion when Seamus asked him about fighting off the zombie arouse your suspicion? What was your initial reaction when Quirrell rescued Harry and Ron from detention with Filch for trying to get through the forbidden door?

4. Harry's first Potions class is on a Friday, "Double Potions with the Slytherins." Does Potions class meet only once a week for a double period or might there be some other reason for having the first class so late in the week? Why do you think that the Gryffindors have two classes (Potions and the not-yet-scheduled flying lessons) with the Slytherins, one class (Herbology) with the Hufflepuffs, and none with the Ravenclaws?

5. Snape asks Harry where he might find a bezoar, what he would get if he added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, and what the difference is between monkshood and wolfsbane? Why do you think that Snape asked those particular questions? Do you think that he asks the same questions to every class or that he chose them specifically for Harry?

6. When Snape asks Harry about the bezoar, Harry wonders whether Snape expects him to have memorized every word of "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi." But the Potions text mentioned in "Diagon Alley" is "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is almost certainly the Herbology text. How do you explain this apparent error on JKR's part?

7. Just for fun, why do you think that Snape (and, later, Slughorn) is referred to by the old-fashioned title "Potions master" when no other teacher (except the headmaster or headmistress) is called by a similar title? Why not "Potions teacher" for Snape and "Charms master" for Flitwick, for example?

8. Feel free to add your own question.

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 8, The Midnight Duel, on October 27,
2009.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a CoS chapter discussion, please
contact drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Oct 21 04:30:19 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 04:30:19 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbkvtk+c00p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbm2or+knl9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188206


> Carol responds:
> The situations aren't comparable. Sirius Black was trapped, partly through his own rashness in appearing in dog form on Platform 9 3/4 and partly through DD's orders, in a home that he hated. He chose to leave that hated safe place to save Harry.

> 
> The Grangers, in my scenario, would be in Australia (with their memories intact), safe from DEs and free to move wherever they liked. They would have no knowledge of what was happening to Hermione and certainly wouldn't rush home to save her as Sirius rushed to the MoM to save Harry (and vice versa) because they'd have no way of knowing that she was in danger or where she was or how to rescue her.

Pippin:
Sirius returned in GoF because Harry's life was in danger and he felt it was his duty as a godfather to be nearby in case Harry needed him. AFAIK, he went to the MOM for the same reason. I don't see what relevance the dog episode has except to show that he  wasn't being kept at GP by force.

I don't see why the Grangers couldn't feel the same way -- that it was the right choice to hide for their daughter's sake, but maintaining that choice in the face of any immediate threat would be just as impossible for them as it was for Sirius. 

It was no one's intention to make Sirius to go to the Ministry. It was an unintended consequence of Snape's information that Harry *might* be there.  Sirius responded to a threat which, although plausible, might not have existed at all. So the fact that the Grangers wouldn't  know what was actually happening to Hermione or what they could do about it might not keep them away.

Sirius didn't know what he could do for Harry by returning to England, and as it turned out, there wasn't much.  He  didn't know what he could do for Harry if Harry was at the Ministry. If Voldemort was there, maybe all he could do was show his loyalty to Harry by dying with him. That didn't keep him away either.

Carol:
> Yes, they'll be worried about their daughter, but parents of American soldiers in Afghanistan worry about their children, too, and no one places a memory charm (or whatever form of magic she performed on them). 

Pippin:
In most cases they can write to their children,  and even if their child is on a mission where that's impossible, they have the support of other parents and the military. The Grangers will have no one, because not even the Order is supposed to know what Hermione is doing. And that's not because Hermione is too arrogant to trust her elders but because she did trust them. Before he died, Dumbledore ordered the Trio to keep their quest a secret. And as Harry says, he didn't tell them to stop obeying his orders if he died.

Carol:
How is it right to rob the Grangers of their memories of Hermione? 

Pippin:
Whether there was a robbery or not is what we're discussing. It's not a robbery if you voluntarily give something up. 

Some parents would gladly donate a kidney to save their child. Some parents would never consider such a thing.   But that doesn't mean there aren't many parents who would  feel they'd be selfish to refuse. And it certainly doesn't mean that any child who would accept such a kidney would otherwise attack their parents and take it by force.
 
> Carol responds:
> No one would know that they were in a safe house. Besides, the Dursleys know more about Harry than the Grangers would, and there's no indication that the DEs are going after them once the Order has protected them. The Weasleys, too, resort to safe houses protected by a Fidelius Charm (which Bill can somehow talk about to HRH even though he's not the Secret Keeper for Auntie Muriels' house).

Pippin:
Hermione can't set up a Fidelius herself, as far as we know, and she couldn't ask the Order to protect her parents while she's away with Harry since they weren't  supposed to know. If her plan had worked, most people would think that wherever the Grangers went, she'd gone with them. It's only Arthur and Lupin who guess what the Trio planned to do. I think we forget sometimes that no one in the Potterverse knows the Trio as well as we do.

Carol: 
 And if the DEs do find them, which is extremely unlikely, modified memories won't protect them.

Pippin:
That's a straw man as far as my argument goes. I'm not saying a memory charm would protect them if they were found. I'm saying it would make it much easier for them to avoid being found in the first place. 

I still think you're underestimating the problems the Grangers have as illegal immigrants. Hermione can give them magicked credentials that won't attract attention from Muggles. But those are just the sort of thing that Ministries of Magic try to keep out of Muggle hands. There may not be any DE's in Australia, but presumably there's a Misuse of Muggle Artifacts department. 

And I don't think being dentists in Australia means there's no awkward questions.  Oh, you're from England? Where did you train? D'you know so-and-so? That's the sort of question that would fluster an inexperienced fugitive. 

Whereas enchanted Wendell and Monica can (with Hermione's help) sell or rent the Granger house, liquidate their savings, and live on the proceeds, at least for a while. They can apply for emigrant status and get genuine credentials before they leave England, while  Hermione is still around to cover their tracks. And they won't have any trouble explaining who they are or where they came from. 

They'll have trouble picking up the pieces of their old lives, should that ever become an option. But that's not going to be different if they disappear into an Order safe house or escape to Australia with their memories intact. 

> Pippin:
> 
> > Of course it would be cruel to lose the memories of a child. But how much crueller to live on, knowing that you might have done something to save that child and didn't do it? I think people are assuming that it wouldn't happen, since once Voldemort got the information he wanted the Grangers would be dead anyway. But what if he only captured one?
> 
> Carol responds:
> There's no indication that the Grangers could have done something to save Hermione. She's ostensibly saving *them.*

Pippin:

What they can do to save Hermione is avoid allowing  Voldemort to gain information he would find useful. They can't do that if they're captured,  so they have to avoid being captured. She's told them a lot about herself and about Harry. That's the  reason she gives for taking such drastic measures to conceal them. It has nothing to do with protecting them from the grief of losing her. That aspect isn't an upside for her. It has her in tears. I see no reason to think they are only for herself.

> Carol:
 They don't know anything useful about either her or Harry. Not even Hermione yet knows where they're going to be, and she certainly hasn't told them that she, Ron, and Harry are going Horcrux hunting. For all they know--or knew--she's going back to Hogwarts.

Pippin:
Sirius didn't think knowing that Harry cared about him more than any other living person would be useful to Voldemort. He was wrong. I don't think it was obvious  that Harry's brief romance with Ginny was anything serious on his part. As far as most people know, they snogged for a couple of weeks and then it was over. Even Ron's annoyed with Harry for "messing her about", ie, playing with her feelings. He knows how Ginny feels about Harry, but not how Harry feels about her.

Carol: 
 And no one in their right minds would consent to such magic.

Pippin:
See, that's where we differ. I find it  easy to imagine consenting to such magic, given the situation. Maybe it's just that I've seen some of my relatives struggle with Alzheimer's, and I no longer have the luxury of regarding memories as an inviolable part of my person. I may have to give them up by force some day -- I'd much rather donate them for a cause. 

 I don't think the memory charms are an unintentional squick on JKR's part, though. They make a nice substitute for a pact with the devil as something that would horrify Muggles so much that even enlightened wizards feel that coming out of hiding is impossible.

JKR introduces them through a villain, Gilderoy Lockhart. All through the earlier books we're made to think that Muggles don't notice magic because they're willfully obtuse. It's not until PoA that we find out Muggle memories are being modified, and not until GoF do we learn that it's being done not in case of emergencies only but  for the sake of nothing more than Quidditch.

Pippin





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 06:38:29 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 06:38:29 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbm2or+knl9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbma95+ln1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188207

> > Carol responds:
> > The situations aren't comparable. Sirius Black was trapped, partly through his own rashness in appearing in dog form on Platform 9 3/4 and partly through DD's orders, in a home that he hated. He chose to leave that hated safe place to save Harry.
> 
> > 
> > The Grangers, in my scenario, would be in Australia (with their memories intact), safe from DEs and free to move wherever they liked. They would have no knowledge of what was happening to Hermione and certainly wouldn't rush home to save her as Sirius rushed to the MoM to save Harry (and vice versa) because they'd have no way of knowing that she was in danger or where she was or how to rescue her.
> 
> Pippin:
> Sirius returned in GoF because Harry's life was in danger and he felt it was his duty as a godfather to be nearby in case Harry needed him. AFAIK, he went to the MOM for the same reason. I don't see what relevance the dog episode has except to show that he  wasn't being kept at GP by force.
> 
> I don't see why the Grangers couldn't feel the same way -- that it was the right choice to hide for their daughter's sake, but maintaining that choice in the face of any immediate threat would be just as impossible for them as it was for Sirius. 


Montavilla47:

So, in this scenario, Hermione sits her parents down and 
says something like this:

"Mother and Father, I need to go save the wizarding world, but
it's very dangerous.  I'd like you to go to Australia so that you'll
be out of danger, while I am risking my life.

"I think it would be for the best if I modify your minds so that 
you don't remember that I exist.  Because, if I don't, Voldemort
might send out a false report that I've been kidnapped and 
tortured, which I'm sure you wouldn't be able to resist acting 
on.  On the other hand, there might be a *real* report of my
being kidnapped, tortured, or killed because that's what
I'm facing.

"But, it's really best if you are both freed from the knowledge
that I'm your daughter.  If you were to respond to the information
that I've been kidnapped, then you'd probably be identified and
kidnapped.  At which point, I'd have to come rescue you.  Because,
of course, I would never be able to sit by if I learned that that
had happened.

"So, shall I go ahead and modify your brains now?"

Pippin:
> It was no one's intention to make Sirius to go to the Ministry. It was an unintended consequence of Snape's information that Harry *might* be there.  Sirius responded to a threat which, although plausible, might not have existed at all. So the fact that the Grangers wouldn't  know what was actually happening to Hermione or what they could do about it might not keep them away.
> 
> Sirius didn't know what he could do for Harry by returning to England, and as it turned out, there wasn't much.  He  didn't know what he could do for Harry if Harry was at the Ministry. If Voldemort was there, maybe all he could do was show his loyalty to Harry by dying with him. That didn't keep him away either.

Montavilla47:
As I wrote that monologue, I realized that if Voldemort were 
going to make up a false report that Hermione has been 
kidnapped in order to bring her parents out of hiding, he could 
more easily create one about the *Grangers* being kidnapped in 
order to lure Hermione into a trap.  Which is exactly what he did 
with Sirius and Harry.

After all, I'm sure that Kreacher also passed on the information
that Sirius loved Harry more than anyone else in the world.  But
Voldemort didn't try to lure Sirius anywhere.  He tried to get 
Harry instead.

Even though Sirius probably had a lot of valuable information
about Harry that Voldemort could have used.  And he wouldn't
be missed as quickly as Harry was.


> Carol:
> > Yes, they'll be worried about their daughter, but parents of American soldiers in Afghanistan worry about their children, too, and no one places a memory charm (or whatever form of magic she performed on them). 
> 
> Pippin:
> In most cases they can write to their children,  and even if their child is on a mission where that's impossible, they have the support of other parents and the military. The Grangers will have no one, because not even the Order is supposed to know what Hermione is doing. And that's not because Hermione is too arrogant to trust her elders but because she did trust them. Before he died, Dumbledore ordered the Trio to keep their quest a secret. And as Harry says, he didn't tell them to stop obeying his orders if he died.

Montavilla47:
I don't think they didn't know that she was going off with 
Harry.  Arthur lent her a tent.  And someone taught her 
those protective spells.  

What they didn't know was exactly what Hermione would
be doing with Harry.  But they must have known that she
was going.  They knew Ron was going--Arthur helped him
set up his elaborate cover story.

And, as for the support that Muggle families receive when
their children are at war, the Grangers would be more likely
to get that sort of support were they put into a safe house
where there would be some Order wizards around to help 
them understand the situation and possibly tune their
block of wood into "Pottertalk," which would be a great
morale booster, I'm sure.


> > Carol responds:
> > No one would know that they were in a safe house. Besides, the Dursleys know more about Harry than the Grangers would, and there's no indication that the DEs are going after them once the Order has protected them. The Weasleys, too, resort to safe houses protected by a Fidelius Charm (which Bill can somehow talk about to HRH even though he's not the Secret Keeper for Auntie Muriels' house).
> 
> Pippin:
> Hermione can't set up a Fidelius herself, as far as we know, and she couldn't ask the Order to protect her parents while she's away with Harry since they weren't  supposed to know. If her plan had worked, most people would think that wherever the Grangers went, she'd gone with them. It's only Arthur and Lupin who guess what the Trio planned to do. I think we forget sometimes that no one in the Potterverse knows the Trio as well as we do.
> 

Montavilla47:
As far as we know, she can't do a Memory Charm, either.
Which means that we don't even know exactly what she did
to her parents, beyond making them believe that they are 
other people, with life goals they never had before, and without
any children to explain Mrs. Granger's stretch marks.

And I don't think it's just Arthur and Lupin who "guess" what is
going on.  Mrs. Weasley tries her darnedest to prevent the Trio
from leaving--so she knew that they wanted to go.

And Bill seems pretty clued in that Harry's off on a secret mission
with his brother and Hermione.  

The Order had to know what was going on to some extent--
in order to know approximately how long Harry was intending
on staying at the Burrow.  They never made any contingency 
plans for moving him elsewhere in the event of a Ministry raid,
or Death Eater attack, which indicates to me that they were 
expecting him to take off before too long.


> Carol: 
>  And if the DEs do find them, which is extremely unlikely, modified memories won't protect them.
> 
> Pippin:
> That's a straw man as far as my argument goes. I'm not saying a memory charm would protect them if they were found. I'm saying it would make it much easier for them to avoid being found in the first place. 
> 
> I still think you're underestimating the problems the Grangers have as illegal immigrants. Hermione can give them magicked credentials that won't attract attention from Muggles. But those are just the sort of thing that Ministries of Magic try to keep out of Muggle hands. There may not be any DE's in Australia, but presumably there's a Misuse of Muggle Artifacts department. 

Montavilla47:
But they'd have to have false papers in order to be Wendell
and Monica Wilkins, whether they *believe* that they are or 
whether they are merely *pretending* to be so.  The danger
of detection (in terms of papers or credentials) is the same
in either case.

Pippin:
> And I don't think being dentists in Australia means there's no awkward questions.  Oh, you're from England? Where did you train? D'you know so-and-so? That's the sort of question that would fluster an inexperienced fugitive. 

Montavilla47:
It's also going to fluster someone who hasn't had that
filled in as a backstory by their daughter.  If someone
asks where they trained, and Hermione forgot to give
them a fictional school of dentistry, then they don't 
even have the option of using one they attended--or
one that they thought about attending.  It will just be
a blank.

Unless the Wilkinses have exactly the same history
as the Grangers--with the exception of never having
had a daughter.  Which is possible, I suppose.  

Pippin:
> Whereas enchanted Wendell and Monica can (with Hermione's help) sell or rent the Granger house, liquidate their savings, and live on the proceeds, at least for a while. They can apply for emigrant status and get genuine credentials before they leave England, while  Hermione is still around to cover their tracks. And they won't have any trouble explaining who they are or where they came from. 

Montavilla47:
But they can do all those things even with their memories.
In order to apply for emigrant status and get genuine
credentials, they'll still false identity papers--and they'll
still need to sell or rent the house.  

And they can still have Hermione's help to do it--while
she's around.  And they won't be constantly having to 
ask her who she is while she's helping them.

Pippin:
> They'll have trouble picking up the pieces of their old lives, should that ever become an option. But that's not going to be different if they disappear into an Order safe house or escape to Australia with their memories intact. 

Montavilla47:
I quite agree.  


> > Carol responds:
> > There's no indication that the Grangers could have done something to save Hermione. She's ostensibly saving *them.*
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> What they can do to save Hermione is avoid allowing  Voldemort to gain information he would find useful. They can't do that if they're captured,  so they have to avoid being captured. She's told them a lot about herself and about Harry. That's the  reason she gives for taking such drastic measures to conceal them. It has nothing to do with protecting them from the grief of losing her. That aspect isn't an upside for her. It has her in tears. I see no reason to think they are only for herself.

Montavilla47:
Good.  Let's take that argument about "sparing them grief" 
off the table then.  

As I understand your argument, Hermione needed to keep 
her parents from being captured at all costs.  Both 
because they would be tortured and probably killed, and 
because they could give away valuable information.

That sounds right to me.  

The only disagreement we really have then is whether or 
not Hermione removed her parents' knowledge of her 
existence (and their own identities) with their consent or
without it.

And we don't have conclusive evidence either way.  But 
I'm afraid that a careful, critical reading of the text points
to a greater likelihood of Hermione doing it without their
consent than with it.  

Arguments for Hermione having done it without consent:

1.  There is a history within the books of Wizards modifying
Muggle memories and confunding them without any
consent.  We are told about specific cases in PoA, GoF, and
HBP.

2. There is a personal history of Hermione acting for other 
people's own good without consulting them.  For example, 
she confunds McClaggen without consulting Ron.  She 
cleans up Harry's extra potion without waiting to ask him.
She leaves hats around in the Gryffindor Common Room to
trick elves into picking them up and thus becoming free. 
She puts a curse on a parchment in order to brand traitors
without consulting Ron or Harry.

3. Hermione also has a history of dismissing her parents.
Although she knew they were against her using magic to 
shrink her teeth, she had it done when she had the chance.
She spend most of her holidays with her friends, rather than
her parents.  She lied to them when she wanted to  spend 
Christmas with the Weasleys, telling them that she had to 
stay at Hogwarts to study for her O.W.L.s.

4. All the things that were accomplished (in terms of 
having the Grangers/Wilkinses move to Australia) could
have been accomplished without modifying their memories.
Whether or not they could more successfully impersonate 
their new identities by having their minds magicked is, as far 
as I can see, a toss-up. The only real advantage in doing so 
is that they would go without protest.

5. While it's possible that the Grangers would consent
to losing their memories of Hermione in order to protect
her, there were alternatives (such as hiding them with a 
Fidelius Charm) that are present within the text.  The 
likelihood of parents agreeing to lose all memory of their
child rather than go into hiding in the wonderful world of
magic--or go to the trouble of learning a cover story-
is just not that strong.

I'll let someone else list the evidence that Hermione 
magicked her parents with their consent.  The only
reason I can think of is this one:

1. She got their consent because it would be wrong not
to do so.


> > Carol:
>  They don't know anything useful about either her or Harry. Not even Hermione yet knows where they're going to be, and she certainly hasn't told them that she, Ron, and Harry are going Horcrux hunting. For all they know--or knew--she's going back to Hogwarts.
> 
> Pippin:
> Sirius didn't think knowing that Harry cared about him more than any other living person would be useful to Voldemort. He was wrong. I don't think it was obvious  that Harry's brief romance with Ginny was anything serious on his part. As far as most people know, they snogged for a couple of weeks and then it was over. Even Ron's annoyed with Harry for "messing her about", ie, playing with her feelings. He knows how Ginny feels about Harry, but not how Harry feels about her.

Montavilla47:

This is kind of beside the point, but I find it absolutely 
bizarre that Harry and Ginny were the talk of the school
when they were snogging all over the place--but nobody
thinks it was serious.

Harry broke up with Ginny during Dumbledore's funeral--
I doubt that the few students left at school at that point 
even knew that it had happened.  They would be too busy
watching Dumbledore's body bursting into flames.

(Hey... wait a second.  How did Voldemort pry Dumbledore's
wand from his cold, dead hands if the body had burned up?)

As far as the student body knew, Harry and Ginny were still 
together.  I can't believe tongues wouldn't be wagging--






From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 09:04:29 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:04:29 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbmiqt+jnj1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188208

Carol wrote:

> Hagrid tells Harry not to worry about Snape, who likes hardly any students.

> 8. Feel free to add your own question.

Joey:

Question: 

Wasn't there a mention here about Hagrid not quite meeting Harry's eye when defending Snape?

Why do you think Hagrid did not quite meet Harry's eye when speaking about Snape? Is it because:

a) Hagrid knows that DD trusts Snape and that they both have some secret mission in common? 
b) Hagrid respects all Hogwarts professors per se? 
c) Hagrid has an idea about the James-Lily-Snape conflicts?

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Wed Oct 21 09:28:55 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 05:28:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <25107858.1256086449255.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <4ADE137D.2010308@gmail.com> <hblceo+i8vk@eGroups.com>
 <25107858.1256086449255.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADED457.7060505@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188209


>> Geoff:
>> In the first chapter of HBP ("The Other minister") the discussion between
>> Fudge and the British PM includes a reference to the murders of Amelia
>> Bones and Emmeline Vance. 
> Cassy:
>
> Snape also shown to spend summers in a muggle town in HBP and had he
> been killed (by Bella, on her visit, say), he's death would be
> investigated by the police. Still, it doesn't mean that he could have
> supported himself living in a muggle world. We don't know much about
> circumstances of Bones and Vance murders, they could have been found
> just laying in a street, which would also cause the police to get
> involved.
>   

Ah, yeah. Snape's boyhood home. 

Actually, I've had a bit of a rethink on this.  JKR is all over the 
place in the canon on this issue. 

First the century's old Statute of Secrecy seems to have driven magic 
from Muggleville, explaining why magic has disappeared from the UK from 
the muggle POV.   And then there are lots of wizards who are are so 
unfamiliar with the muggle world that they can't dress properly to go 
forth unnoticed and completely ill prepared to earn their crust of bread 
in the muggle world.  TDL talks about bringing magic back out into the 
open. 

Some places like OOP HQ, the MOM, and the Burrow are charmed against 
Muggles but the George and Fred visit girls in the village. 

OTOH, the WW seems to live intermixed with Muggleville as Geoff & Cassy 
point out, Bones and Vance in London. Godric Hollow seems to have lots 
of wizarding families. And all those WW folk who married muggles.  On 
Potterwatch the WW is encouraged to put up protective charms on friendly 
muggle neighbor's homes as well as their own.  Growing up on Spinners 
End in a half WW family, Snape spies on the muggle raised Lilly and 
Petunia on the playground.  Muggle teens traumatize Arianna. 

It's all very confusing.  The two worlds were separated to protect the 
WW from witch hunts and such.  But then they intermarry and live in the 
same communities.  TDL wants to bring magic back out into the open.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Oct 21 09:48:25 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:48:25 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <d5d.4c2977b8.380fdf80@aol.com>
Message-ID: <hbmld9+nrme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188210

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at ... wrote:
Xelina: 
> We  don't know much about
> circumstances of Bones and Vance murders, they could  have been found
> just laying in a street, which would also cause the police  to get
> involved.
 
Melissa:
> We do know of the Bones murder from HBp.  She was found in a room that  was 
> locked from the from the inside.  

Geoff:
I think we pick up a little more than that in the chapter.

As well as her body being found in a locked room, the PM 
comments just prior to that:

'"But that murder was in the newspapers." said the Prime 
Minister, momentarily diverted from his anger. "**Our** 
newspapers. Amelia Bones.... it just said that she was a 
middle-aged woman who lived alone...'"
(HBP "The Other Minister" p.19 UK edition)

She was obviously known - at least slightly - by Muggles, 
as she was apparently living in a Muggle London area.

And when Fudge raises the matter of Emmeline Vance, the 
PM appears to be slightly ruffled and defensive again:

'Fudge sighed... "And then there was Emmeline Vance,
maybe you didn't hear about that one-"
'"Oh yes I did!" said the Prime Minister. "It happened just 
round the corner from here, as a matter of fact. The papers 
had a field day with it: Breakdown of law and order in the 
Prime Minister's back yard-"'
(ibid.)

The implication again that the victim was in a Muggle area.

And, finally, there is circumstantial evidence earlier in the 
chapter. The Prime Minister is contemplating events...

'And how dared anyone suggest that it was lack of policemen 
that had resulted in those two very nasty and well-publicised 
murders?'
(ibid. p.8 UK edition)

You may question whether this refers to the murders 
discussed earlier in my post, but it is interesting that 
the PM knows enough about the two murders Fudge 
mentions to recognise the names and circumstances....

I rest my case.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Oct 21 16:26:47 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:26:47 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbma95+ln1j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnco7+55ka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188211

 
> Montavilla47:
> 
> So, in this scenario, Hermione sits her parents down and 
> says something like this:
> 
> "Mother and Father, I need to go save the wizarding world, but
> it's very dangerous.  I'd like you to go to Australia so that you'll
> be out of danger, while I am risking my life.
> 
> "I think it would be for the best if I modify your minds so that 
> you don't remember that I exist. 
<snip scenario>

Pippin:
So, in your scenario, Hermione says, "I think it would be for the best if I gave you enchanted papers and you went to live in Australia under assumed names. I've arranged everything. You'll be Wendell and Monica Wilkins. You leave Britain on Sunday and you start at the Perth Clinic for Advanced Dentistry on Thursday next."

And the Grangers say, "That's fine, dear, I'm sure we'll fit right in." 

???

I think they'd say, "Hold on, here. You want us to travel under false papers? Lie to the border police? To our employers? To our *patients?* Starting Sunday and every day after that for the duration of this war? 

"It's not that we wouldn't do it for you if we could. But we're not spies, you know, or play-actors. I don't think we'd be convincing, dear, if you see what I mean. We can't be pulling out  enchanted papers and waving them under people's noses every time someone asks us an innocent question.

Isn't there somewhere safe you could send us as ourselves?"

And Hermione would have to say she doesn't really think there is, because, after all, Dumbledore was murdered at Hogwarts itself. And he was supposed to be the one person who had nothing to fear from LV.

"Well, couldn't you sort of hypnotize us then? It would be much easier for us to be Wendell and Monica if that's who we really believed we were."

"Well, I could use a memory modification charm, if that's what you mean.  Mind you, it won't hold up to a skilled legilimens, but I don't think you'll run across one of those. Thank goodness they're scarce. But you'd better think carefully about it, because if something happens to me, you could end up being Wendell and Monica forever.

"Better that, than having something happen to you because we didn't do it. As we're going to be leaving our home and everything else behind to make sure you're safe, I'd rather not have all that effort go to waste."

As to not bothering to get their consent, why do you think it was so important to Harry that the Dursleys agree to go with the Order? Why not just have the Order enchant them? After all, they were ready to enchant Harry himself if he wouldn't agree to their plan. 
 

Pippin






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 17:06:58 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:06:58 -0000
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
In-Reply-To: <4ADE0E3A.7080403@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbnf3i+nd9c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188212

Magpie:
> > I'm not saying that Voldemort couldn't have. I'm saying that in the book--which is the whole story--JKR wasn't going there so I think it was a bad idea to throw in something that's as disturbing to some readers as Hermione memory charming them to explain some big protection that never has any payoff anyway. 
> >   
> rick:
> I disagree.  By DH the DE's had driven the entire Weasley family into 
> hiding (except Percy), kidnapped Luna, and tried to kidnap Neville's 
> granny.  Clearly they were working in Muggleville as well, hence the 
> deaths, train wrecks and bridge collapse.  What made the Weasleys a 
> target?  Ron was with HP & Ginny was working inside Hogwarts.  What made 
> Luna a target?  She and her father openly supported HP.  What made 
> Granns a target?  Neville was carrying on HP's work inside Hogwarts.
> 
> Hg's parents didn't have to know anything for the DEs to use them to 
> torture the Trio into the open or at least to force Hg to give herself 
> up to save her parents. 
>
Carol responds:
I'm not sure what you mean about "torture the Trio into the open." At any rate, *no one* is disagreeing that the Grangers needed some form of protection. The question is whether the particular form of protection that Hermione, without consulting Harry, the Order, or apparently anyone else, chose to give them.

Was it a good idea to get them out of England where the DEs couldn't reach them? Certainly. Was it necessary to alter their memories? Not in my view. Did she obtain their consent? We don't know, but it seems improbable. Should she have asked their consent? Of course.

It doesn't really matter whether they could have provided any useful information about HRH (though I don't think they could have). What matters is whether the DEs would have gone after them if they remained (likely but not certain) and whether the means of protection was insufficient, sufficient, or over the top.

What were the alternatives to altering their memories and stripping them of their identities? Was simply getting them out of the country sufficient?

We don't need to argue about whether they were in danger. They probably were, just as the Dursleys probably were. In fact, the Dursleys were probably in *more* danger, but clearly the Order's protection was sufficient or we would have learned about it.

You seem to think (correct me if I'm wrong) that torturing the Grangers would have driven HRH out of hiding. I don't think so. HRH had few means of catching up with the outside world, only an occasional Daily Prophet or Wizarding Wireless broadcast or contact with other Wizards.

That wouldn't have been the point of torturing the Grangers. The DEs would have been after information (despite the unlikelihood that they'd learn anything important) just as Bellatrix and her gang were after information when they tortured the Longbottoms into insanity.

So, yes, by all means get them out of England. But why deprive them of their free will, their memories, and their identities? That's a huge violation of their civil and human rights, and a step that, IMO, Hermione had no right to take. It was a huge act of disrespect toward the parents without whom she would have no existence.

Does the end (protecting them and ostensibly protecting Harry) justify the means (forcing them to leave the country and forget that they have a daughter or even who they are)? Not in my opinion. Doesn't Hermione remember that in the days when laws meant something it was against the law to use magic on a Muggle? What she has done is comparable to what Riddle did to Morfin, modifying their memories for her own purposes. The only difference is that she's not framing them for a crime. She's manipulating them for her own convenience, and violating their minds in the process--a much worse form of manipulation, IMO, than anything Dumbledore did, and comparable to what he planned to do as a teenager.

And if the Imperius Curse is Unforgiveable, why isn't the spell that Hermione used (something more than a simple Memory Charm) also Unforgiveable given that it robs the victim of his or her free will and even of him/her*self*?

Carol, who still thinks that Hermione's parents will be less than happy when they find out the liberties she has taken to "protect" them 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 17:31:17 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:31:17 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbl51b+f6pn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbngh5+4ee8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188213



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> Kemper:
> >> If my child were to enlist in the US service currently, it would be
> > wrong of me to kidnap him/her and move to beautiful Canada.  It's
> > their choice.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sure.
> 
> Kemper: 
> > If I were Hermione's parent and she explained that the info she gave
> > me could jeopardize her life and she asked me to go in for a memory
> > wipe, I would tell her no.  It is her choice for enlisting with Harry,
> > my memories should not be consequenced for her choice.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Wow. I respect your choice, but this is something I would never be able to understand. What if Hermione was drafted in the army, thus having no choice whatsoever in the matter, would your choice still be the same?
> 
> You would rather keep your memories of the child who will be dead because of your choice than to give them up to keep her alive?
> 
> Do you really think that Hermione had much choice in the matter by the way?
> 
> Oh granted she could not resist Voldemort, this is a choice too, but if she did not want to let evil maniac to take over?
> 
> I mean certainly she made some choice, but I guess to me this is the only choice decent person could made and for that her parents will punish her with increasing chances of her death?
>
Carol responds:
But there's no indication whatever that Hermione will die because her parents didn't have their memories wiped. She wipes their memories so that they'll forget about her and won't grieve if she dies--*not* a reason for wiping a parent's memory that *any* parent would agree to.

As I said before, LV knows everything he needs to know about Harry, including that he has an Invisibility Cloak, that he knows the secret entrances into Hogwarts, that he has a "saving people" complex, that he has/had a wand against which no wand he uses (except possibly the Elder Wand) will work, that he will go to Godric's Hollow, that he uses the name Voldemort and can therefore be found through the Taboo, that he will come to LV to fight him rather than let other people die, and, eventually, that he's destroying Horcruxes.

There's no need to torture the Grangers to find out information about Harry other than his immediate whereabouts early in the story. which is not to say that the DEs wouldn't do it for other reasons, including the simple "pleasure" of Muggle torture with the excuse that their daughter was a "criminal." But no information that they could provide would have made an iota of difference in their finding Harry. All they/LV need for that is the Taboo (of course, they didn't count on Dobby and Aberforth as a deus ex machina) and, later, LV's knowledge that he will show up in the Ravenclaw common room (McGonagall is the deus ex machina here) and that he will come to Voldemort (who doesn't know about the blood connection or that Harry is the master of the Elder Wand). The Grangers could neither help or hinder the process of finding Harry, which has no connection with them at all.

I agree that it's a good idea to get the Grangers--*with their consent*--out of England and out of danger. And Australia is as good a place as any, an English-speaking country out of reach of the DEs.

But I disagree completely and absolutely that their failing to agree to have their memories wiped would in any way have compromised Harry or Hermione. And I also think that her wiping their memories and forcing them to leave England without their consent (if that's what she did) was a violation of their human rights comparable to altering Morfin's and Hokey's memories or Imperiusing Pius Thicknesse to make him a puppet of the DEs.

Carol, who would not blame the Grangers in the least for refusing to have their memories wiped and thinks that Hermione's using magic on her Muggle parents is much worse than the crime that Morfin went to prison for




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 18:06:52 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:06:52 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbngh5+4ee8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnijs+dbr0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188214

> Carol responds:
> But there's no indication whatever that Hermione will die because her parents didn't have their memories wiped. She wipes their memories so that they'll forget about her and won't grieve if she dies--*not* a reason for wiping a parent's memory that *any* parent would agree to.

Zara:
No, that is not what the book/Hermione says. Her reasons for hiding her parents are given by her in DH.

> DH, "The Ghoul in Pajamas":
> "I've also modified my parents' memories so they're convinced they're really called Wendell and Monica Wilkins, and that their life's ambition is to move to Australia, which they have now done. That's to make it more difficult for Voldemort to track them down and interrogate them about me - or you, because unfortunately, I've told them quite a bit about you."

Zara:
She goes on to note that in the event she dies, her parents will remain oblivious, and remain Wendell and Monica forever. But this is not *why* she does it, this is a side-effect of her having done it, and of having done it in secret, without sharing it with other witches or wizards of equal or greater magical cpompetence. 

And personally, I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that Voldemort knowing everything Hermione ever told (or inadvertently gave away to) her parents about herself and Harry would increase the likelihood of her death. Though her own death is not, as I see it, her only concern, she is also worried about Harry (likely both as her friend, and as the guy who is carrying out Dumbledore's plan to defeat Voldemort). 

The text does not tell us what she told them, but she knows. And even if she is not sure she told them anything too useful, what if she is wrong? Or, what might they have seen that Voldemort could get use out of (say, a dusty pile of old books, the titles of which mean little to the Grangers, but which Tom would remember as having once resided in the Restricted Section of the Hogwarts library, before Dumbledore became Headmaster...for example). She certainly knows a bunch of stuff that Voldemort should not know, as of the summer before DH.






From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Wed Oct 21 18:17:33 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:17:33 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her
 parents
In-Reply-To: <9649099.1256144934631.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <9649099.1256144934631.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADF503D.2010502@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188215


> Carol responds:
> I'm not sure what you mean about "torture the Trio into the open." 
rick:
let it be know that the DEs have the Grangers, perhaps a bit of public 
crucio on the pair.  It is in the nature of the TRIO not to let 
innocents suffer. 

> Carol, who still thinks that Hermione's parents will be less than happy when they find out the liberties she has taken to "protect" them
Well spoken...like a mother.  But I think it's the kind of quick 
solution a self-assuredness and precocious teen would think of.  It 
certainly has appeal for me.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 18:25:27 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:25:27 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbnco7+55ka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnjmn+3i1m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188216

> > Montavilla47:
> > 
> > So, in this scenario, Hermione sits her parents down and 
> > says something like this:
> > 
> > "Mother and Father, I need to go save the wizarding world, but
> > it's very dangerous.  I'd like you to go to Australia so that you'll
> > be out of danger, while I am risking my life.
> > 
> > "I think it would be for the best if I modify your minds so that 
> > you don't remember that I exist. 
> <snip scenario>
> 
> Pippin:
> So, in your scenario, Hermione says, "I think it would be for the best if I gave you enchanted papers and you went to live in Australia under assumed names. I've arranged everything. You'll be Wendell and Monica Wilkins. You leave Britain on Sunday and you start at the Perth Clinic for Advanced Dentistry on Thursday next."
> 
> And the Grangers say, "That's fine, dear, I'm sure we'll fit right in." 
> 
> ???

Montavilla47:

Actually, under my scenario, she doesn't ask at all.  She just
waves her wand and makes them think they're different people.

Pippin:
> I think they'd say, "Hold on, here. You want us to travel under false papers? Lie to the border police? To our employers? To our *patients?* Starting Sunday and every day after that for the duration of this war? 
> 
> "It's not that we wouldn't do it for you if we could. But we're not spies, you know, or play-actors. I don't think we'd be convincing, dear, if you see what I mean. We can't be pulling out  enchanted papers and waving them under people's noses every time someone asks us an innocent question.
> 
> Isn't there somewhere safe you could send us as ourselves?"
> 
> And Hermione would have to say she doesn't really think there is, because, after all, Dumbledore was murdered at Hogwarts itself. And he was supposed to be the one person who had nothing to fear from LV.

Montavilla47:

But then that means that it's useless putting the Dursleys into 
a safe house, too.  

And it's useless trying to protect Harry at Andromeda's, or at 
the Burrow.  

And it's useless putting up a Fidelius Charm at Aunt Muriel's
or Shell Cottage.

All of the plans are going to involve some risk, including the
one she came up with.

Pippin:
> "Well, couldn't you sort of hypnotize us then? It would be much easier for us to be Wendell and Monica if that's who we really believed we were."

Montavilla47:

"Wait a minute, dear.  I have an idea.  Why don't you put us
in the same place you're planning to hide your friend's 
family?  That way we wouldn't be with complete 
strangers, and we could discuss gardening or sports and
so on.  And, from what you've told us, that child probably 
has a mouth full of cavities, so we could do something 
useful."

"Yes, dear.  We *could* do that. But, on the other hand,
if Hermione hypnotized us, then we'd be in Australia.  
I hear Sydney is lovely."

"So... let's think about this.  We could either stay with
Harry's relatives in a closely guarded place with real 
wizards, increase our knowledge of our daughter's world, 
socialize with people we have a lot in common with, find 
support when we get anxious or frightened, and retain our 
memories... or we can forget who were ever were and who
our only daughter is, and go surfing."

"I say we go surfing.  So, can you hypnotize us?"

Pippin:
> "Well, I could use a memory modification charm, if that's what you mean.  Mind you, it won't hold up to a skilled legilimens, but I don't think you'll run across one of those. Thank goodness they're scarce. But you'd better think carefully about it, because if something happens to me, you could end up being Wendell and Monica forever.

Montavilla47:

"Oh dear.  We'd better think about that.  Do we really want to be
other people for the rest of our lives?  I'm not sure about it."

"On the other hand, Sydney's hosting the Olympics in a few
years."

"Oh, right!"

Pippin:
> "Better that, than having something happen to you because we didn't do it. As we're going to be leaving our home and everything else behind to make sure you're safe, I'd rather not have all that effort go to waste."
> 
> As to not bothering to get their consent, why do you think it was so important to Harry that the Dursleys agree to go with the Order? Why not just have the Order enchant them? After all, they were ready to enchant Harry himself if he wouldn't agree to their plan. 
>  
> 
> Pippin

Montavilla47:

Because Harry is not Hermione. 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 18:36:11 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:36:11 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hblchi+b153@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnkar+gdo4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188217

Alla wrote:
> > I do not think that we need to come up with every possible detail as to what exactly Hermione told them about Harry that may help Voldemort to catch them. I think that the umbrella of **told them a lot about Harry** covers a lot of things that we may not even guess that Voldemort will use against them.
> 
Montavilla47 replied:
> I'm going to agree with you here.  I don't think we need to question whether or not Hermione told them something valuable.  Let's go ahead and assume that she did.
> 
> Alla: 
> > Anything, any detail, any small fact can give DE a clue how to catch them IMO. And they will not care about Harry loving Ginny? Same as Voldemort did not care to use Sirius against Harry?
> > 
> > I think it will be perfect idea for them to use Ginny as a bait, <snip>
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Now that's an excellent thing they could use.  Not that they do--since the *entire* school was talking about Ginny and Harry in HBP (K-I-S-S-I-N-G).  They didn't need to ask the Grangers about that.  

Carol:
Right on both counts. They didn't need the Grangers for that and they didn't use the information. We have absolutely no evidence that anything they knew could have been used against Harry, and, IMO, Hermione is only fooling herself, and excusing her own actions, by thinking that she was protecting him. 

Protecting her *parents* as opposed to Harry (and herself) is a somewhat more justifiable excuse, since they probably were in real danger, but there we get into Magic Is Might and protecting Muggles for the Muggles' own good whether they consent or not. The *kind* of protection matters, as does their consent. And we have the Muggle Dursleys as our counterexample. They left their home, Vernon's job and Dudley's school by their own choice, identities intact, and no harm came to them or JKR would have had Harry learn about it.

Montavilla 47:
> But, you're right. We don't need to know what the DE's might have wanted from the Grangers that they didn't think they could get from the Weasleys or the hundreds of other students at Hogwarts.  It's enough to know that Hermione thought they knew something important and that Voldemort might want to question them about it.

Carol:
I disagree. It's enough to know that Hermione thought that they might be tortured and needed protection--and up to that point I think that she's correct even though I doubt that either the DEs or Voldemort would expect to acquire any important information from a "Mud-Blood's" Muggle parents. They'd find other reasons to torture them.

But even supposing that she's right about the reasons for the torture, the question is whether memory modification, especially without their consent, is necessary and appropriate or a needless and inappropriate violation of their human rights. And that's where I think that Hermione crosses the line of acceptable behavior toward Muggles in general and her parents in particular.
> 
> Alla:
> > Just as I think that DE having trouble finding and using Muggle camera to fake Hermione's kidnapping is not a reason to discard the possibility that they will do so. <snip>
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I don't think it's very likely, since people like Arthur--who loves Muggle inventions--are terrible at figuring out what they do and how to work them.  
> 
> More importantly, it's completely outside the actual story. So, to make that possibility an important part of Hermione's thought process is to bring in something irrelevant.

Carol:
Exactly. Let's stay within the realm of what Hermione herself thinks will happen, which is that her parents will be tortured if they stay in England, and her reasons for depriving them of their memories of their daughter and their own lives, not just what she's told them about Harry.

Montavilla 47:

> <snip> Continuing with that analogy of the Grangers as a book that the Death Eaters would want to read, Hermione has changed all the type to invisible ink, I suppose.  <snip> those who are trained to detect them would certainly try their best to bring the words back and probably would succeed.
> 
> And even if they didn't, they'd still tear out all the pages trying.  
> 
> Which is what would happen to the Grangers if they were found--regardless of whether or not Hermione non-Memory-Charmed them.
>
Carol responds:
Just to be clear, you're saying that altering their memories is pointless because if they were found, a skilled DE or LV himself could break the charm and find the true memories?

If so, I agree with you on principle though I don't think there would be any memories worth finding. *But the memories that she deprived them of were not just those relating to Harry but even the knowledge of their own names and their daughter's existence, neither of which had anything to do with protecting Harry.* Her motive there was supposedly protecting them from grief if their daughter died. And that has nothing to do with what the DEs might or might not find.

If your point is that, yes, the Grangers needed to be safely out of the country for their own protection, but altering their memories provided no additional protection either to the Grangers or to Harry and Hermione, I agree with you. That's not even considering the harm that such an action could potentially inflict on the Grangers' minds and their relationship with their daughter.

I don't agree that the Grangers would have had anything valuable to contribute, but that's beside the point. *If* they or LV himself wanted to break through the charm, they could have done so--if and only if they could find the Grangers in Australia, which, given the limited range of brooms and Apparition and the focus of LV's takeover on Britain itself, is, IMO, extremely unlikely.

So we're back to the question of whether Hermione's action was justified, with or without her parents' consent. I can't quite tell where you stand on that question. Do you agree with me that sending them to Australia, with their consent, is sufficient, and that the memory modification is both unnecessary and wrong, or do you hold some other biew?

BTW, in my previous sign off about Morfin Gaunt and the crime he went to prison for being much less bad than what Hermione did to her parents, I meant, of course, disfiguring handsome Tom Riddle with a hex, not, of course, the murder of the Riddles, a crime he didn't commit despite being imprisoned for it. My apologies for the lack of clarity.

Carol, who feels no empathy for Hermione at all in this situation






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 21 18:36:05 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:36:05 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbnijs+dbr0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnkal+heif@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188218

> Zara:
> No, that is not what the book/Hermione says. Her reasons for hiding her parents are given by her in DH.
> 
> > DH, "The Ghoul in Pajamas":
> > "I've also modified my parents' memories so they're convinced they're really called Wendell and Monica Wilkins, and that their life's ambition is to move to Australia, which they have now done. That's to make it more difficult for Voldemort to track them down and interrogate them about me - or you, because unfortunately, I've told them quite a bit about you."
> 
> Zara:
> She goes on to note that in the event she dies, her parents will remain oblivious, and remain Wendell and Monica forever. But this is not *why* she does it, this is a side-effect of her having done it, and of having done it in secret, without sharing it with other witches or wizards of equal or greater magical cpompetence. 
> 
> And personally, I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that Voldemort knowing everything Hermione ever told (or inadvertently gave away to) her parents about herself and Harry would increase the likelihood of her death. Though her own death is not, as I see it, her only concern, she is also worried about Harry (likely both as her friend, and as the guy who is carrying out Dumbledore's plan to defeat Voldemort). 

Magpie:
I agree that her reason is to make it harder to track down and interrogate her parents and therefore to protect herself and Harry and not them. I don't see what her parents could possibly know that would make Hermione's death any more or less likely. She's already allegedly risking death about as much as any person can. She's kept her parents in the dark about the details of Voldemort, according to OotP, so whatever she's told her parents about Harry is personal. Yet I can't see what personal thing would put her in any more danger than she's in just as a companion to Harry. Or what more danger it puts Harry in. We know now that it was never an issue.

The memory wipe and false identities are about giving them a push to take themselves out of the country without question which, I agree with Carol, they could have done on their own. It's what's making them hard to track down. That's the main protection against interrogation. If Voldemort tracks them down the memory charm won't hold, as we've seen before.

Zara: 
> The text does not tell us what she told them, but she knows. And even if she is not sure she told them anything too useful, what if she is wrong? Or, what might they have seen that Voldemort could get use out of (say, a dusty pile of old books, the titles of which mean little to the Grangers, but which Tom would remember as having once resided in the Restricted Section of the Hogwarts library, before Dumbledore became Headmaster...for example). She certainly knows a bunch of stuff that Voldemort should not know, as of the summer before DH.

Magpie:
If the problem is she doesn't want them to say anything about Harry, she could have asked if she could wipe their memories of anything to do with Harry before asking them to move to Australia under different names and they'd have been fine with that. No reason to wipe their entire memories of themselves and Hermione, potentially forever. Which is basically what she says: she's modified their memories *not* so that they no longer know anything about Harry Potter, but so that they think they're a couple who want to move to Australia and do it. As with all the other examples of Muggles given false impulses, it's about deceiving the Muggles to make them do their bidding while they think they're doing their own. She wound them up like toys and pointed them towards Australia out of Voldemort's reach should he think to speak with them.

-m





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 18:51:35 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:51:35 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbnkar+gdo4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnl7n+7vc1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188219

Carol:
<SNIP>
Exactly. Let's stay within the realm of what Hermione herself thinks will
happen, which is that her parents will be tortured if they stay in England, and
her reasons for depriving them of their memories of their daughter and their own
lives, not just what she's told them about Harry. <SNIP>.


Alla:

Sure, let's do that. Let's stay within realm of what Hermione herself thinks will happen and her reasons why she did that. The reason of protecting them from grief if their daughter dies is not in canon, as Zara listed upthread.

The example about muggle camera was brought up NOT as something that happened in canon but as analogy of DE learning to use something that can serve their main goal to kill Harry and his friends. After all DE were not above get acquainted with Muggle government and putting spies there, right? I do not think learning how something of Muggle functions is so different. IMO of course.

Alla






From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 18:56:41 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:56:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnlh9+om5t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188220

<snip Carol's concise summary of the chapter>

> Questions for Discussion:
> 1. Harry's Astronomy class is mentioned here for the first and last time before the Astronomy OWL in OoP. Why do you think that the class takes place so late despite the rule that no students should be in the corridors after hours? Do you think that all of the first-years have Astronomy together or is this class another attended by Gryffindors only? Do all the Astronomy classes take place at midnight, and, if so, how does Professor Sinistra fit seven (or more) midnight classes into her schedule?

Zara:
I think the class needs to be at night because it consists of observations of the night sky. I don't have a guess as to what other Houses might share a time with Gryffs (Maybe Ravenclaw? <g>), but I would guess not all the classes are at midnight, other years/Houses may have them at other late hours. In my fanfiction, I have proposed Professor Sinistra routinely sleeps until lunchtime, just as Muggles who work night-shift jobs might.

> 2. Harry takes five core subjects?Herbology, Potions, Charms, Transfiguration, and Defense Against the Dark Arts, along with History of Magic and Astronomy. What do you think of this set of classes for a group of eleven-year-old novice witches and wizards? Which class (setting aside the instructors since we barely glimpse any of them except Snape) would be your favorite and why?

Zara:
They seem a reasonable set of classes, Astronomy is the only one I would question, as we are never given much of a use for it aside to its relevance to Divination (itself an elective subject). I have always wondered at the lack of basic Muggle subjects, though - improving reading and writing skills, and learning mathematics.

I think my favorites among these subjects would have been either Potions or Defense Against the Dark Arts. The former because of its apparent similarities to Muggle sciences (at which I do well) and the latter because of its usefulness for self-defense. That Snape taught both at different points in the story may not be entirely absent from my thought process, however... 

> 3. Why do you think that Quirrell's turban and classroom smell like garlic? Did his blushing and confusion when Seamus asked him about fighting off the zombie arouse your suspicion? What was your initial reaction when Quirrell rescued Harry and Ron from detention with Filch for trying to get through the forbidden door?

Zara:
I attributed Quirrell's garlic smell to an excessive fear of Vampires. Garlic is supposed to ward them off, in traditional stories.

> 4. Harry's first Potions class is on a Friday, "Double Potions with the Slytherins." Does Potions class meet only once a week for a double period or might there be some other reason for having the first class so late in the week? Why do you think that the Gryffindors have two classes (Potions and the not-yet-scheduled flying lessons) with the Slytherins, one class (Herbology) with the Hufflepuffs, and none with the Ravenclaws?

Zara:
Rowling needs to have the Gryffindors and Slytherins interact in flying lessons to help set up the Quidditch and Harry/Draco rivalries. She needs to have the Slytherins in Potions to brainwash us all into believing Snape is awful. The rest, I think, is random.

> 5. Snape asks Harry where he might find a bezoar, what he would get if he added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, and what the difference is between monkshood and wolfsbane? Why do you think that Snape asked those particular questions? Do you think that he asks the same questions to every class or that he chose them specifically for Harry?

Zara:
I think he asks someone some questions in every first year class. I doubt they are the same ones every year in every class, and I do not think that he scose the ones he did especially for Harry because they have some special meaning to him.

I do think Rowling did, though. The latter two questions set up plot elements which occur in later books (Harry's use of a bezoar to save Ron's life, and its association with the HBP/Snape, and Lupin's "furry little problem".) The first, I think Rowling picked because it symbolically conveys Snape's backstory. 
 (As discussed, for example, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/178235)

> 6. When Snape asks Harry about the bezoar, Harry wonders whether Snape expects him to have memorized every word of "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi." But the Potions text mentioned in "Diagon Alley" is "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is almost certainly the Herbology text. How do you explain this apparent error on JKR's part?

Zara:
Harry may have no idea what a bezoar is. Based ont he previous quesoint, though, a guess that it is a plant is reasaonable. Even if Harry has never heard of either of them (and he might have), worm*wood* has a name suggesting its planthood, and the question about asphodel is phrased in such a way that betrays that asphodel, whatever it might be, has roots. Thus, the book Harry thinks of, would be a logical place in which to have read the answers to them. 

> 7. Just for fun, why do you think that Snape (and, later, Slughorn) is referred to by the old-fashioned title "Potions master" when no other teacher (except the headmaster or headmistress) is called by a similar title? Why not "Potions teacher" for Snape and "Charms master" for Flitwick, for example?

Zara:
Because Slytherins are old-fashioned, and refuse to adopt Muggle neologisms like "teacher"? Also, the chapter title sounds more colorful that way. I'm glad they did not "translate" it into American.

Thank you, Carol, for the interesting questions!




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 19:02:18 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:02:18 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbnkar+gdo4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnlrq+cbn4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188221

Carol:
> So we're back to the question of whether Hermione's action was justified, with or without her parents' consent. I can't quite tell where you stand on that question. Do you agree with me that sending them to Australia, with their consent, is sufficient, and that the memory modification is both unnecessary and wrong, or do you hold some other biew?

Montavilla47:
I've been keeping away from making a value judgment on 
what Hermione did because my argument is focused on 
whether or not she obtained consent.  Which I think is
less likely than her simply going ahead without any
consultation with her parents or any consent on their
part.

So, assuming that she did modify their minds without
consent (with whatever spell she did that *wasn't* a 
Memory Charm)... 

Of course it's wrong.

It was wrong when she did it to Cormac McClaggen, and 
it waswrong when Shacklebolt did it to Marietta Edgecombe, 
and it was wrong when the Obliviators did it to Aunt Marge
and the Robertsons.

Oh, and it was wrong when Ron did it to the driving 
instructor in order to pass his exam.  

Now, as we can see in the last book in particular, there
are desperate times that call for desperate measures.
But in Hermione's case, there were other alternatives.

So, I don't think it was justified.  





From Alorkin at msn.com  Wed Oct 21 05:55:58 2009
From: Alorkin at msn.com (Alorkin)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 05:55:58 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: HPSS/CS  Ch8
Message-ID: <hbm7pe+f3l3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188222

1. Harry's Astronomy class is mentioned here for the first and last time before the Astronomy OWL in OoP. Why do you think that the class takes place so late despite the rule that no students should be in the corridors after hours? Do you think that all of the first-years have Astronomy together or is this class another attended by Gryffindors only? Do all the Astronomy classes take place at midnight, and, if so, how does Professor Sinistra fit seven (or more) midnight classes into her schedule?
 
**I'd imagine those taking Astronomy would be exempted from the general rule, though I cannot understand why the castle is off limits to students after hours in the first place.  Isn't it `the safesty place in Britain'?  The houses are paired for other classes, so it stands to reason that they'd be paired here.  Even if they are grouped into one lump per year, astronomy is only required until OWL's.  Except for independent study, a schedule can be worked out for the classes to take advantage of the midnight sky
unless it's overcast, as in most of northern Europe. 

2. Harry takes five core subjects?Herbology, Potions, Charms, Transfiguration, and Defense Against the Dark Arts, along with History of Magic and Astronomy. What do you think of this set of classes for a group of eleven-year-old novice witches and wizards? Which class (setting aside the instructors since we barely glimpse any of them except Snape) would be your favorite and why?
 
**The core classes are like any high school.  They should provide a basic grounding in the requirements for living in the wizarding world.
Personally I think Potions, Herbology and CoMC should be taught together, so the end result is a student who knows not only how to brew the potions but why the ingredients interact the way they do.  I have never understood Snape's reluctance to teach students, such an exacting and dangerous art, instead preferring to leave it up to blind chance and take points when chance goes wrong.  My choice would be a three-way tie.  Transfiguration, Charms and DADA.

3. Why do you think that Quirrell's turban and classroom smell like garlic? Did his blushing and confusion when Seamus asked him about fighting off the zombie arouse your suspicion? What was your initial reaction when Quirrell rescued Harry and Ron from detention with Filch for trying to get through the forbidden door?
 
While his excuse is misleading at best, think about it.  His body is slowly decomposing from the necromantic ritual he went through to host the parasite known as Voldemort.   Such decay is ?always- accompanied by a strong smell.  How better to disguise said smell than with something stronger.  My question here, is why didn't any of the teachers notice??

4. Harry's first Potions class is on a Friday, "Double Potions with the Slytherins." Does Potions class meet only once a week for a double period or might there be some other reason for having the first class so late in the week? Why do you think that the Gryffindors have two classes (Potions and the not-yet-scheduled flying lessons) with the Slytherins, one class (Herbology) with the Hufflepuffs, and none with the Ravenclaws?
 
**It could be an attempt to get the students to interact more than at meals by putting them in each class with different houses.  Rowling placed Gryffindor and Slytherin together in order to foster as much animosity as possible.  In addition, I cannot be certain, but I believe Ravens share both History and Transfiguration.   

5. Snape asks Harry where he might find a bezoar, what he would get if he added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, and what the difference is between monkshood and wolfsbane? Why do you think that Snape asked those particular questions? Do you think that he asks the same questions to every class or that he chose them specifically for Harry?
 
**I actually believe he asks them of everyone, both to determine who is worthy of teaching, and to show off.  Snape is a egotistical man with little to show.  Any opportunity to show off would be ambrosia to him.  I can se his speech on the three questions, ending up something like this:  "Those of you who wish to study the fine art of potions making, would do well to study more than the standard texts, as none of those questions can be found there."  Or something of the like.  


6. When Snape asks Harry about the bezoar, Harry wonders whether Snape expects him to have memorized every word of "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi." But the Potions text mentioned in "Diagon Alley" is "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is almost certainly the Herbology text. How do you explain this apparent error on JKR's part?

**While it may be an error on JKR's part, Herbs and Fungi are also used in potions.  I know of several dozen locally available fungi that are toxic, and can assume that those could be made into either poison or potion.  Aspirin, for instance, was first made from a fungus.  
 
7. Just for fun, why do you think that Snape (and, later, Slughorn) is referred to by the old-fashioned title "Potions master" when no other teacher (except the headmaster or headmistress) is called by a similar title? Why not "Potions teacher" for Snape and "Charms master" for Flitwick, for example?

It could be a title, like PhD, MbA, or the like, They may actually have earned the title through continued study, though in Snape's case that's not likely, or it could be overblown ego's, as both have been shown to have.  Snape is far too young to have earned a mastery in anything.  More, he was hired immediately after the Potters were murdered.  He'd have been twenty or twenty one, at best.  
 
8. Feel free to add your own question. 

**Why is the castle off limits to students after hours?  Why has no one done anything about Snape's blatant abuses of power?  Why did none of the staff suspect anything about Quirrell?  Snape covets the position, surely his unmasking Quirrelmort would guarantee him the position.  Why does Dumbledore foster the interhouse hatreds through his inaction?  

Alorkin




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 19:19:07 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:19:07 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbnijs+dbr0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnmrb+9gee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188223

Carol earlier:
> > But there's no indication whatever that Hermione will die because her parents didn't have their memories wiped. She wipes their memories so that they'll forget about her and won't grieve if she dies--*not* a reason for wiping a parent's memory that *any* parent would agree to.
> 
> Zara:
> No, that is not what the book/Hermione says. Her reasons for hiding her parents are given by her in DH.
><snip canon>

> Zara:
> She goes on to note that in the event she dies, her parents will remain oblivious, and remain Wendell and Monica forever. But this is not *why* she does it, this is a side-effect of her having done it, and of having done it in secret, without sharing it with other witches or wizards of equal or greater magical cpompetence. 
> 
> And personally, I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that Voldemort knowing everything Hermione ever told (or inadvertently gave away to) her parents about herself and Harry would increase the likelihood of her death. Though her own death is not, as I see it, her only concern, she is also worried about Harry (likely both as her friend, and as the guy who is carrying out Dumbledore's plan to defeat Voldemort). 

Carol:
I disagree, for reasons I've already posted elsewhere.

I concede that she *says* that she's doing it because she thinks that they'll be tortured so that the DEs can find out information about Harry, but I think that she's mistaken (or deluding herself). She knows or ought to know LV has better sources of information (such as Wormtail, and, she would think, Snape) to tell him much more about Harry than her parents could. 

But even if she's right or truly believes what she's saying, all she needs to do is to get them safely out of reach of the DEs, with their consent and their identities intact. And there are no DEs in Australia, and it's difficult to arrive there magically from Britain. it simply would not be worth the effort to go after them, especially given the limited information that the Grangers could provide.

The important points are: 1) Was the memory modification necessary? Did it in any way provide extra protection to Harry, Hermione, or the Grangers themselves? I say that it didn't.

 2) Did she ask their consent? The likelihood, as Montavilla47 has indicated, is no.

3) Could the DEs have reached the Grangers in Australia? Would they have done so? Again, I say no. We see no interest expressed by any DEs or LV regarding the Grangers at all, only Hermione herself once she's known to be traveling with Harry. And it's much easier for the Grangers, with their memories intact and with or without cleverly forged papers, to fly their on an airplane than for the DEs to get their by their range-limited magical means, especially when it's unnecessary to do so. Australia is a huge country. How on earth would the DEs find them, especially if they changed their names, even if they could get there? And if they were found, exactly how would the altered memories protect them or HRH?

4) *If* Hermione's reason for altering their memories is to prevent them from revealing information about Harry (as if such information couldn't be forced out of them or they wouldn't be tortured for *not* producing it if they were tortured at all), how does she justify taking away their identities and their knowledge of their daughter, neither of which has anything to do with protecting Harry? *That's* where sparing them grief fits in. And that's where the invasion of their human rights fits in. 

Carol, who thinks that the memory of a beloved child, living or dead, is a precious gift that should never be taken away




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Oct 21 19:57:16 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (Susan A)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:57:16 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <4ADE152B.3030002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbnp2s+808o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188224

SSSusan:
> > First off, I don't question at all your position that Hermione 
> > could have had quite a successful and fulfilling life in the 
> > Muggle world.  
> >
> > OTOH, I want to think more about whether I agree that her life in 
> > the WW was "not as rewarding a life" as she could have had in the 
> > MW.  I'm just not sure that's so.  That really, imo, depends upon 
> > how one defines 'fulfilling' and must, imo, take into account 
> > what each individual would want or need in order to call his/her 
> > life 'fulfilling.'  
  
rick:
> Well, she was a child of the internet cast back into 1945 to live.  
> (Interestingly, Binn's history of magic textbook is published in 
> 1945--at least the edition cited in the footnote of Fantastic 
> Creatures).  Unlike HP, she was loved, well cared for, and I'm sure 
> her parents had expectations for her education and career.  So she 
> ends up a magical Please-Man.


SSSusan:
I really don't get what you're saying when you say she was a child of the internet cast back into 1945.  What in canon tells us that Hermione loved and desired her Muggle life much more than her Wizarding World life? Or that she missed things she would've had in the MW that she no longer had access to or could achieve in the WW?  

Hermione strikes me as someone who *loves* the world where she lives.  And hell, as to being a child of the internet cast back, Hermione loves the good old book more than anything! ;)

Seriously, it seems to me that you are presuming to know what is best for Hermione, what would make her life fulfilling.  That was the point I was trying to make in the rest of my post, which was snipped out, where I used Harry's love of flying as an example.  There we have something specific & concrete that shows us how the WW was superior to the MW for Harry.  

So I'd ask again, what is there in canon which shows us the *opposite* for Hermione?  That is, what shows us she was less satisfied, less fulfilled in the WW?  Isn't this actually you putting *onto* her certain desires and hopes for her life based upon talents you see in her?  How do we know she would concur that life in the RW would've been more fulfilling?

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Oct 21 20:04:11 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:04:11 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbnpfr+o8g1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188225

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> 5. Snape asks Harry where he might find a bezoar, what he would get if he added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, and what the difference is between monkshood and wolfsbane? Why do you think that Snape asked those particular questions? Do you think that he asks the same questions to every class or that he chose them specifically for Harry?
 
Geoff:
I don't think it's *those* particular questions. It\'s just a few random 
questions which Snape thinks will catch Harry wrong-footed and reveal 
him to the others as knowing little or nothing.

Snape has already revealed his hand by addressing Harry as "our new 
- celebrity". The way in which he says it shows a subtle sarcasm which 
is not lost on some of the other students. His follow-up dig at Harry 
"fame clearly isn't everything" underlines a total lack of sympathy or 
understanding. Does he know that Harry has only just learned who he 
is?; does he care? 

I  believe that he sees Harry as arrogant and fame-seeking and intends 
to pull the carpet from under him at this first opportunity to show Harry 
that he cannot expect to use his fame, as Snape perceives it, to gain 
privileges. 

> 6. When Snape asks Harry about the bezoar, Harry wonders whether Snape expects him to have memorized every word of "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi." But the Potions text mentioned in "Diagon Alley" is "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is almost certainly the Herbology text. How do you explain this apparent error on JKR's part?

Geoff:
I suspect that Harry, being caught off-guard by the onslaught of 
Snape's questions, thinks of the first book which comes to mind 
out of all the ones he has,





From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Wed Oct 21 20:24:01 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:24:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <32700170.1256155160794.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <32700170.1256155160794.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4ADF6DE1.8020304@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188226


> SSSusan:
> I really don't get what you're saying when you say she was a child of the internet cast back into 1945.  What in canon tells us that Hermione loved and desired her Muggle life much more than her Wizarding World life? Or that she missed things she would've had in the MW that she no longer had access to or could achieve in the WW?  
>   
rick:

I think you missed the preceding messages.  The argument was that Hg was 
well educated for her age and her parents--well educated and successful 
professional--would have had conveyed expectations and hopes for her 
future.  Well educated professionals tend to breed well educated 
professionals.  I just don't see Hg really working out in the WW or 
being happy with a high school education, particularly when the life 
she'd been dropped into was some 50 years behind her times (any more 
than Ron would have worked out well in the muggle world 50 years ahead 
of his time). 

> SSS:
> So I'd ask again, what is there in canon which shows us the *opposite* for Hermione?  That is, what shows us she was less satisfied, less fulfilled in the WW?  Isn't this actually you putting *onto* her certain desires and hopes for her life based upon talents you see in her?  How do we know she would concur that life in the RW would've been more fulfilling?
>   
rick:
I think this round cooked off when I referred to Hogwarts as a trade 
school education.
-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 21 22:52:20 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:52:20 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbo3b4+h87s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188227

1. Harry's Astronomy class is mentioned here for the first and last time before the Astronomy OWL in OoP. Why do you think that the class takes place so late despite the rule that no students should be in the corridors after hours? Do you think that all of the first-years have Astronomy together or is this class another attended by Gryffindors only? Do all the Astronomy classes take place at midnight, and, if so, how does Professor Sinistra fit seven (or more) midnight classes into her schedule?

Janelle:
I do think that it's weird that the first years have class at midnight- especially in the middle of the week.  I would think they would give earlier times, maybe 9 or 10 depending on the time of year to the first years and reserve later times for older students.  As far as who's in the class with the Gryffindors- touching on a question below, maybe the Ravenclaws are in this class with them.

2. Harry takes five core subjects?Herbology, Potions, Charms, Transfiguration, and Defense Against the Dark Arts, along with History of Magic and Astronomy. What do you think of this set of classes for a group of eleven-year-old novice witches and wizards? Which class (setting aside the instructors since we barely glimpse any of them except Snape) would be your favorite and why?

Janelle:
I do sometimes wonder about other "muggle" subjects, like english and math, but as someone else pointed out, the students are expected to write a lot of essays so their writing is probably pretty good by the time they graduate.  I think I would probably enjoy Potions and Charms the most!

3. Why do you think that Quirrell's turban and classroom smell like garlic? Did his blushing and confusion when Seamus asked him about fighting off the zombie arouse your suspicion? What was your initial reaction when Quirrell rescued Harry and Ron from detention with Filch for trying to get through the forbidden door?

Janelle:
I guess I didn't think too much about any of this Quirrell stuff.  I took the garlic at face value and thought he would just be a quirky guy around school...


4. Harry's first Potions class is on a Friday, "Double Potions with the Slytherins." Does Potions class meet only once a week for a double period or might there be some other reason for having the first class so late in the week? Why do you think that the Gryffindors have two classes (Potions and the not-yet-scheduled flying lessons) with the Slytherins, one class (Herbology) with the Hufflepuffs, and none with the Ravenclaws?

Janelle:
I can see potions just being once a week if it's an extra long session.  I do think it's weird that the Gryffindors would have classes with Slytherin and Hufflepuff, but not Ravenclaw.  So, as I said above, maybe they have astronomy with the Ravenclaws.

5. Snape asks Harry where he might find a bezoar, what he would get if he added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, and what the difference is between monkshood and wolfsbane? Why do you think that Snape asked those particular questions? Do you think that he asks the same questions to every class or that he chose them specifically for Harry?

Janelle:
I second what someone said about the questions themselves not being too important, more just that Snape wanted to take Harry down a peg or two just in case he was starting to get a big head.

6. When Snape asks Harry about the bezoar, Harry wonders whether Snape expects him to have memorized every word of "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi." But the Potions text mentioned in "Diagon Alley" is "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is almost certainly the Herbology text. How do you explain this apparent error on JKR's part?

Janelle:
I don't know that this is necessarily an error- maybe One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi is used for both Potions and Herbology.

7. Just for fun, why do you think that Snape (and, later, Slughorn) is referred to by the old-fashioned title "Potions master" when no other teacher (except the headmaster or headmistress) is called by a similar title? Why not "Potions teacher" for Snape and "Charms master" for Flitwick, for example?

Janelle:
I think that Snape has that title because he is so good at Potions.  Maybe he did do extra study in that area and earned the title, or maybe he just took it on himself.  I do think that he deserves it, since he clearly is an expert potions maker.

8.  Why is the castle off limits to students after hours? 

Janelle: I think it's more about the students needing to be in bed than anything about the castle being dangerous.  It's just a rule to keep things structured.

9.  Why did none of the staff suspect anything about Quirrell? 

Janelle: Well, we know that Snape, at least, suspected Quirrell and spent most of the year working against him.  I can't remember whether or not we know for sure what Dumbledore knew, but I'm sure he knew what was going on, too.  As for the rest of the staff- I guess they just swallowed the same story we did (Quirrell being different as a result of his travels)

10.  Why didn't Hagrid meet Harry's eyes at the end?

Janelle: Hagrid must know that Snape and James never liked each other and he probably just assumes that Snape doesn't like Harry because of James, but he probably didn't want to get into it with Harry.




From xellina at gmail.com  Wed Oct 21 23:39:53 2009
From: xellina at gmail.com (Cassy Ferris)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:39:53 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
References: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <463f9ec00910211639y945278ap421fa9aa4bd0b995@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188228

>
> Questions for Discussion:
>
> 1. Harry's Astronomy class is mentioned here for the first and last time before the Astronomy OWL in OoP. Why do you think that the class takes place so late despite the rule that no students should be in the corridors after hours? Do you think that all of the first-years have Astronomy together or is this class another attended by Gryffindors only? Do all the Astronomy classes take place at midnight, and, if so, how does Professor Sinistra fit seven (or more) midnight classes into her schedule?
>
It is obvious that the Astronomy class, if it includes the actual star
gazing, should be after dark.
since considering that Hogwarts is, as far as we know, pretty far
north, the schedule of Astronomy classes should take into account that
in late spring it will be dark only in late evening, and thus the
class can't be schedules earlier, say at 9 pm. My guess would be that
older students might have classes even later at night, so it is
possible for Professor Sinistra to fit all classes into 1 week. Also,
I think that more advanced students would spend more time studying
theory of space and not just looking at stars, so they can have
classes during the day.

> 2. Harry takes five core subjects?Herbology, Potions, Charms, Transfiguration, and Defense Against the Dark Arts, along with History of Magic and Astronomy. What do you think of this set of classes for a group of eleven-year-old novice witches and wizards? Which class (setting aside the instructors since we barely glimpse any of them except Snape) would be your favorite and why?

I would think that first years should have something like
"Introduction to magic" that would explain the main rules and laws of
magic. I think I'd like Astronomy and Charms and would totally fail at
Transfiguration, which always sounded to me very counterintuitive.

> 4. Harry's first Potions class is on a Friday, "Double Potions with the Slytherins." Does Potions class meet only once a week for a double period or might there be some other reason for having the first class so late in the week? Why do you think that the Gryffindors have two classes (Potions and the not-yet-scheduled flying lessons) with the Slytherins, one class (Herbology) with the Hufflepuffs, and none with the Ravenclaws?
>

I've always thought that Portions only meet once a week. It makes
sense to have double class and not too separate, so that students can
brew portions that take more time to prepare. As for classes with
Ravenclaws, I, personally, see it just as a "bug" from JKR. She is
clearly not interested in Ravenclaw house up until Cho comes along, so
we don't get to see any students from there. On the other hand,
classes like Charms and Transfiguration might require more individual
attention from the instructor to each of the students, so the houses
have those classes separately.


> 5. Snape asks Harry where he might find a bezoar, what he would get if he added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, and what the difference is between monkshood and wolfsbane? Why do you think that Snape asked those particular questions? Do you think that he asks the same questions to every class or that he chose them specifically for Harry?
>
It seemed to me that Snape chooses the questions randomly, but picks a
victim  in every  first year class he has, to show students how little
they know and how much they have to learn (a motivator, if somewhat
misguided).

> 6. When Snape asks Harry about the bezoar, Harry wonders whether Snape expects him to have memorized every word of "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi." But the Potions text mentioned in "Diagon Alley" is "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is almost certainly the Herbology text. How do you explain this apparent error on JKR's part?

Since Harry didn't read any of his textbooks, he doesn't have a clear
idea which is for which class. Though it is quite possible that "One
Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is equally used in Portions, since
herbs and plants are obviously important parts of many concoctions.

>
> 7. Just for fun, why do you think that Snape (and, later, Slughorn) is referred to by the old-fashioned title "Potions master" when no other teacher (except the headmaster or headmistress) is called by a similar title? Why not "Potions teacher" for Snape and "Charms master" for Flitwick, for example?

 I consider "Portions master" be some sort of equivalent for Master of
Science - a title showing high qualification of the bearer.



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 22 01:08:39 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 01:08:39 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <4ADED457.7060505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hboban+o0t4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188229



---  "Rick H. Kennerly" <rhkennerly at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> >...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Actually, I've had a bit of a rethink on this.  JKR is all 
> over the place in the canon on this issue. 
> 
> First the century's old Statute of Secrecy seems to have 
> driven magic from Muggleville, ...
> 
> ... the Burrow are charmed against Muggles but the George and
> Fred visit girls in the village. 
> 
> OTOH, ... Bones and Vance in London. Godric Hollow seems to
> have lots of wizarding families. And all those WW folk who 
> married muggles. On Potterwatch the WW is encouraged to put
> up protective charms on friendly muggle neighbor's homes as 
> well as their own. Growing up on Spinners End in a half WW 
> family, Snape spies on the muggle raised Lilly and Petunia
> on the playground. Muggle teens traumatize Arianna. 
> 
> It's all very confusing.  The two worlds were separated to 
> protect the WW from witch hunts and such. But then they 
> intermarry and live in the same communities.  TDL wants to 
> bring magic back out into the open.
> -- 
> 
> Rick Kennerly

bboyminn:

It is only confusing if you try to force it into an absolute.

Also, it is not wizard and witches that are hidden by the
Statue of Secrecy, it is the fact that they are wizards and
witches that is hidden. Harry wanders around in full view of
his neighbor, he went to muggle public school. HE is not 
hidden, only the fact that he is a wizard is hidden. 

So, wizards and witches live within muggle communities. I 
suspect they even gradually transform some neighborhoods from
mixed to mostly magical families. This happens to neighborhoods
all the time. There is a neighborhood in Minneapolis that was 
cut off by the construction of a K-Mart that block the street 
it was on. That neighborhood fell in to ruin. Then Asian
immigrants came and needed cheap real estate for homes and 
businesses. Now that dead neighborhood is filled with Asian
restaurants (some of the best in the city), and Asian grocery
stores (love shopping there even if I don't know what most of
the stuff is), as well as clothing shops and Asian video stores. 

I could see the same thing happening with muggle neighborhoods
over time. A wizard moves in, his friend need a place, so he
buys a house to be close to his friend, next thing you know the
wizards are taking over. 

As I intended to point out, and as you did point out, it is 
clear from canon that wizard and muggles live in close 
proximity to each other. But, that doesn't mean they associate.
Every neighborhood has the family that keeps to themselves. 
The grouchy old man who keeps chasing kids way from his lawn,
and keep soccer balls that have the misfortune of crossing his
fence line. The batty old woman who lives with her cats.

That's the beauty of JKR's world, it could be real. Maybe that
grouchy old neighbor is really a wizard in disguise. 

Now, because of the diversity of the wizard world, because
there are muggle who marry magical people, because there are
muggle-born/pureblood marriages, there is certainly a wide
range of degrees of integration into the muggle world. 

I suspect once married, Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione, because
they each had a guide, could pass between worlds comfortably.

Now Mr. Weasley, fascinate as he is with muggles, is a pure-
blood, who live his entire life in the magical world. The
muggle world is strange and foreign to him. He just doesn't
get it. 

As a real world example, I don't picture Prince Charles getting
along too well in the 'muggle' world. His life has been to 
isolated and privileged. However, his sons Prince William
and Prince Harry seem completely comfortable in the 'muggle'
world. They have no problem walking down the street and
associating with commoners. Something that I imagine is very
uncomfortable for Prince Charles.

Next, we must look at the practicalities of the wizard world.

Take Mr. Fortesques Ice Cream Shop, he need dairy products,
nuts, chocolate, assorted fruit, and many other items to 
keep his shop running. Do you really think the wizard world
is capable of providing all that? Strawberries? Bananas? 
Peanuts? Walnuts? Chocolate? 

Now, no doubt there are wizard farmers, but I just don't 
see them as being able to fulfill every food need of the
Wizard world. It would be so much easier if there were 
muggle-borns who had access to those muggle resources, and 
could bring them into the wizard world. 

I suspect there are people, we'll call the consultants, who 
make a very good living helping magical people navigate the 
mysteries of the muggle world.

If there is a need, someone will fill it, and, in my view,
there is clearly a need for these people who professionally
straddle the worlds for a profit.

I can't prove it's true, but I just can see how it is not.

Steve/bboyminn





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 22 04:13:50 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 04:13:50 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbom5u+a9lt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188230

> 7. Just for fun, why do you think that Snape (and, later, 
> Slughorn) is referred to by the old-fashioned title "Potions 
> master" when no other teacher (except the headmaster or 
> headmistress) is called by a similar title? Why not "Potions 
> teacher" for Snape and "Charms master" for Flitwick, for example?


zanooda:

Flitwick *was* called "Charms master" in "The Sacking of Severus Snape" (p.601) :-). But this only happened once...:-).





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Oct 22 06:41:51 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:41:51 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <463f9ec00910211639y945278ap421fa9aa4bd0b995@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbourf+l40u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188231

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cassy Ferris <xellina at ...> wrote:

> > Questions for Discussion:

> > 6. When Snape asks Harry about the bezoar, Harry wonders whether Snape expects him to have memorized every word of "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi." But the Potions text mentioned in "Diagon Alley" is "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is almost certainly the Herbology text. How do you explain this apparent error on JKR's part?
> 
> Since Harry didn't read any of his textbooks, he doesn't have a clear
> idea which is for which class. Though it is quite possible that "One
> Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is equally used in Portions, since
> herbs and plants are obviously important parts of many concoctions.

Geoff:
I must spring to Harry's defence. You have maligned him greatly with 
that statement. The evidence:

'"Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?"

Harry forced himself to keep looking into those cold eyes. He **had** 
looked through his books at the Dursleys', but did Snape expect him 
to remember everything in One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi?'
(PS "The Potions Master" p.102 UK edition)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Oct 22 11:42:43 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:42:43 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbom5u+a9lt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbpgfj+kcjb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188232



Carol:
>
> > 7. Just for fun, why do you think that Snape (and, later, 
> > Slughorn) is referred to by the old-fashioned title "Potions 
> > master" when no other teacher (except the headmaster or 
> > headmistress) is called by a similar title? Why not "Potions 
> > teacher" for Snape and "Charms master" for Flitwick, for example?
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> Flitwick *was* called "Charms master" in "The Sacking of Severus Snape" (p.601) :-). But this only happened once...:-).
>


Potioncat:
I thought so! Thanks for the canon.

I think JKR uses Potions master to reflect his role as "cruel school master" from the past novels about schoolboys. There's always at least one mean teacher. Slughorn doesn't fit that mold, but he's also something of a type---the friendly teacher who entertains a group of students. We don't get as close a look at any of the other teachers at Hogwarts.  

Most of us US readers weren't familiar with the term master for teacher. We thought there was some  extra degree of training in Potions involved and the title master meant Snape had accomplished more before coming to Hogwarts. Little did we know.




From rhkennerly at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 14:04:48 2009
From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:04:48 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <13121387.1256173873799.JavaMail.root@n11>
References: <13121387.1256173873799.JavaMail.root@n11>
Message-ID: <4AE06680.7000307@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188233


> bboyminn:
>
> It is only confusing if you try to force it into an absolute

I'm sure you're right. 

Packing for Guam.  Put you guys on nomail and will check back in a 
couple of weeks.  Don't say anything important until I get return. 

-- 

Rick Kennerly
Virginia Beach, VA
www.mouseherder.com 
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1213141578&ref=name>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Oct 22 15:36:44 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:36:44 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbnmrb+9gee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbpu6c+v1fh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188234


> Carol:
> I disagree, for reasons I've already posted elsewhere.
> 
> I concede that she *says* that she's doing it because she thinks that they'll be tortured so that the DEs can find out information about Harry, but I think that she's mistaken (or deluding herself). She knows or ought to know LV has better sources of information (such as Wormtail, and, she would think, Snape) to tell him much more about Harry than her parents could. 

Pippin:

Wormtail hasn't lived with Harry for four years (he spent most of Harry's third year in hiding.) None of Harry's friends would confide his  "deepest fears" or "darkest secrets" to Snape, and Snape  carefully didn't use the occlumency lessons to find them out. 

 Of course everyone thinks they know personal stuff about Harry; he's a celebrity. But what they know is  contaminated by rumour, the Quick Quotes Quill and disinformation spread by both sides. The WW has heard that Harry is  dangerously unstable, had an unnatural relationship with Dumbledore, is lovesick for Hermione, etc, etc. 

Voldemort can  discount the rumors his own side is spreading: he knows that Harry didn't kill either Cedric Diggory or Albus Dumbledore, and he knows who the Heir of Slytherin really is.  But it would be useful to have someone with intimate knowledge of Harry to sort through the rest of it. The Grangers not only have information that comes from Harry's dearest friend, they haven't been exposed to all the hype from other sources. 

No, I don't think Hermione's fears are unrealistic at all. She confided in her parents information which makes them a danger to her and to Harry, and thus, since the Grangers' survival may well depend on the success of Harry's quest, to themselves. 
 

I agree that the method of hiding her parents is plot-driven as well as character-driven. JKR doesn't want Hermione to have Ron's option  of giving up and going back home. But I don't think we have to invent hypothetical motives which even you admit aren't consistent with the development of this plotline in the text in order to account for Hermione's actions. 

Carol:
 How on earth would the DEs find them, especially if they changed their names, even if they could get there? 

Pippin:
The DE's will find them when the Australians, who take a dim view of people entering their country illegally, deport them back to England.
Voldemort doesn't have an army of agents looking for people who are  in Australia illegally. But the Australians do. Credentials are easy to fake, magically or otherwise. The trouble is, the police know that, so they look for other things. Nervousness, inconsistencies, all stuff that gives inexperienced liars away. Magical credentials won't solve that problem. 

Pippin




From caaf at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 22 12:18:35 2009
From: caaf at hotmail.com (Cyril A Fernandes)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:48:35 +0530
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <4ADE137D.2010308@gmail.com>
References: <14850080.1255994561057.JavaMail.root@n11> <4ADE137D.2010308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT109-DS6FDAA547C79F48450482CCABE0@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 188235

>> bboyminn:
>>
>> But you assume the only choices are one world or the other, 
>> I suspect there are many who live quite comfortably in both
>> worlds. 
>> 
>rick:
>You may suspect it, but the canon has scant facts to confirm your 
>suspicion. Ms. Figg, the Squib, is the only person we know for sure 
>lives among the muggles. Mr. W, a mugglephile if there ever was one, 
>has to study them second hand, collecting artifacts like plugs and 
>trying to puzzle out their meaning and use and quizzing HP about rubber 
>ducks. Even though he's involved policing the misuse of muggle 
>artifacts, he is more a muggle archaeologist. 
>
>The Secrecy Statute would seemed to have driven a wedge between the two 
>worlds and, therefore, the WW into hiding centuries before. An 
>Inconsistency not explained by the canon, however, is the number of 
>Wizard/Muggle marriages. At one point in DH TDL talks about how the two 
>worlds were driven apart (witch hunts & later the SS) and the WW into 
>hiding and how he's going to return the WW to it's place in the open. 

Cyril:
There are some instances of examples of exchanges between the worlds. Besides the requirement of currency exchanges which is probably managed through Gringotts, we also hear of examples/references of the following
a) Shrinking Keys that are "apparently" lost by the Muggles (not sure which book)
b) Regurgitating toilets (OOPT)
c) A teapot that I believe was spouting tea all over the place (GoF I think)
d) I also think there was an example of socks that disappeared (not sure which book)
e) Even TMR's diary that was bought from a Muggle store - and this was the one he was using in his 5/6 Year, and not when he joined Hogwarts (CoS)

Most of this is mentioned in passing, but there is clear evidence that things from the magical world do get into the muggle one, keeping Arthur and his team busy.

For sure a lot of it is done in secret (and mainly by folks such as Dung and Willy), which is necessitated as part of the statute of secrecy, but it does exist.
There is also reference to a career in Muggle Relations during Career advice, and surely there is scope to interact with the muggle world in that job.

In many ways, the WW is ancient, but it is different, and its education system is built for that world.

For example you probably do not need to do a course in engineering when you can wave a wand and expand the interior of a car, or add rooms/floors to your house.

Just as we feel that things in the WW such as the Wizard Wireless etc are cheap imitations of real world things, Arthur is amazed by how the muggles have managed to get on without magic.

Cyril.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 22 19:40:26 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:40:26 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbpu6c+v1fh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbqcfa+k907@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188236

> Pippin:
> The DE's will find them when the Australians, who take a dim view of people entering their country illegally, deport them back to England.
> Voldemort doesn't have an army of agents looking for people who are  in Australia illegally. But the Australians do. Credentials are easy to fake, magically or otherwise. The trouble is, the police know that, so they look for other things. Nervousness, inconsistencies, all stuff that gives inexperienced liars away. Magical credentials won't solve that problem. 
> 
> Pippin

Montavilla47:

This is sort of beside the point, since Hermione doesn't mention
any worries about her parents being deported--but is Australia
especially harsh on immigrants from England?

I know in the U.S., we're pretty down on illegal immigration--but
we have a bit of a double standard about (as least, we did before
9/11--actually, it's probably worse now).

Immigrants who look Hispanic are much more likely to be 
scrutinized by immigration agents than those who look and 
sound European.  Someone who comes off a bus or train, or by 
car is going to be questioned.  Someone who arrives by airplane?  
Not so much (unless they look or sound Islamic).

I had a friend who married an Iranian woman so that she
could get a green card (long, long ago).  They had heard all the
stories about having to answer personal questions--so they
prepared.  But it wasn't necessary and she explained why to
me:  The Immigration Department didn't *care* if the marriage
was legitimate, because she was a skilled professional.  They
only really care if you going to be a drain on the social 
network or tempted into crime.

We are now less likely to turn a blind eye (judging from horror
stories of grieving widows being deported and so forth), but
I'm sure immigration agents still focus on unskilled, aliens from
hostile or poor countries, and not on respectable professionals
from England.

But maybe I'm missing something about the British/Aussie
dynamic?






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 22 20:14:30 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:14:30 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbqcfa+k907@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbqef6+t587@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188237

> > Pippin:
> > The DE's will find them when the Australians, who take a dim view of people entering their country illegally, deport them back to England.
> > Voldemort doesn't have an army of agents looking for people who are  in Australia illegally. But the Australians do. Credentials are easy to fake, magically or otherwise. The trouble is, the police know that, so they look for other things. Nervousness, inconsistencies, all stuff that gives inexperienced liars away. Magical credentials won't solve that problem. 
 
> Montavilla47:
> 
> This is sort of beside the point, since Hermione doesn't mention
> any worries about her parents being deported--but is Australia
> especially harsh on immigrants from England?

Magpie:
If the Australian authorities were really putting every middle aged couple from the UK under enough scrutiny that they're going to be noticing nervousness and grilling them extensively, they'd probably notice "inconsistancies" that come up when someone's actually been memory charmed and so missing a few screws! The Grangers are in witness protection, basically. Hermione wouldn't think twice about her ability to pull this off without a memory charm. Can't help but think the assumption that her parents absolutely need a complete memory erasure to get through customs--and that they would pretty much beg for such a thing because it would be so much easier for them than giving a fake name--seems like a side effect of Muggle infantalization (no where else do the Muggle authorities show any level of competence).

-m




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 22 20:28:34 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:28:34 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbnlh9+om5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbqf9i+lp6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188238



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ZaraG" <zgirnius at ...> wrote:
>
> <snip Carol's concise summary of the chapter>
> 
> > Questions for Discussion:
> > 1. Harry's Astronomy class is mentioned here for the first and last time before the Astronomy OWL in OoP. Why do you think that the class takes place so late despite the rule that no students should be in the corridors after hours? Do you think that all of the first-years have Astronomy together or is this class another attended by Gryffindors only? Do all the Astronomy classes take place at midnight, and, if so, how does Professor Sinistra fit seven (or more) midnight classes into her schedule?
> 
> Zara:
> I think the class needs to be at night because it consists of observations of the night sky. I don't have a guess as to what other Houses might share a time with Gryffs (Maybe Ravenclaw? <g>), but I would guess not all the classes are at midnight, other years/Houses may have them at other late hours. In my fanfiction, I have proposed Professor Sinistra routinely sleeps until lunchtime, just as Muggles who work night-shift jobs might.
> 
> 

Bboyminn:

Sorry, I've only got time for a quick post on this one issue.

We need to remember that Hogwarts is very far north, farther
north than Edinburgh. Here is a website with sunrise/sunset
times for Edinburgh.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=304&month=6&year=2009&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

In June, that sunset is between 9:47pm and 10:02pm, that's 
pretty late, in September, it is between 8:07pm and 6:51pm.

So, my point is, for it to be fully and completely dark, it 
would take at least until midnight. If the sunset is at 10pm,
is it really fully and truly dark at 11pm? 

As to the classes, assuming they are an hour, she could have
one at 11pm, one at 12am, and one at 1 amp. That allows her
to have 15 classes per week. For four houses in the 5 OWL
years, she would need to have 20 classes per week assuming
the classes do NOT include two houses. If we expand that to
include 4 houses and all 7 class years, she would need to have
28 classes, assuming houses are not doubled up.

However, if we double up the houses per class period, we can 
see that even worst case, she would only need 14 classes.

Though in reality, probably not that many. NEWT level classes
are small, so they would consolidate all the houses into one
single class. Which means she could take Friday nights off
and still have enough classes for all the students. 

As to being out of the House after 9pm, I think Filch would 
know who has classes and when, and would make an exception.
But, the exception would be just enough time to get to and
from class; no time for lingering in the halls and creating
mischief. 

Steve/bboyminn




From brian at rescueddoggies.com  Thu Oct 22 12:51:32 2009
From: brian at rescueddoggies.com (Brian)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:51:32 -0300
Subject: Bigotry in the Potterverse/Hermione and her parents
Message-ID: <4AE05554.2040203@rescueddoggies.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188239

I'm not going to quote any particular snippet as I'm replying to the 
whole discussion...

My take on Hermione is...
1) I cannot imagine any parent agreeing to have their memories of their 
daughter wiped, no matter how painful the knowledge of her loss might 
make them.
I lost my wife a few years ago and there isn't an hour it doesn't hurt.  
But given the choice to have the memory of her and its associated hurt 
wiped out?  NOT A CHANCE.

So she almost certainly did it without their consent.

2) The ONLY justification for that violation would be if they knew 
something which could put the final victory against Voldemort in danger. 
The only thing I can think of that would fit that category would be if 
she had let slip to them about the existence of Voldemort's horcruxes as 
it was essential that he not find out that they were hunting for and 
destroying them.
I honestly cannot imagine that she would have let slip anything so 
important to them or anyone else.

So it was morally wrong

3) But, she did it to spare them pain.  We see no indication in canon 
that she has ever suffered a loss of someone close to her, so, in her 
ignorance, she probably thought she was helping them to avoid 
suffering.  She is obviously convinced that there was a good chance that 
she would die and wanted desperately to save them from grieving.  
Remember that she had probably seen Harry grieving after the death of 
Sirius and had certainly seen Cho "crying a lot of the time lately" even 
months after the death of Cedric and was trying to avoid her parents 
having to suffer in that way.
Although Hermione was very intelligent, she didn't have the life 
experience to know that no parent would choose to simply "forget" a 
daughter rather than mourn her. 
That does NOT make what she did right.  It does make it understandable. 

People sometimes do wrong things for the best reasons.  As the old 
saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

To emphasise how important memories ARE to someone who had lost someone, 
rather than express it in my own words, I'll simply restate these words 
from Professor Bryan Cloyd put it best, in his email to his students 
after his daughter, Austin, was murdered in the Virginia Tech massacre.
"If we don't meet again, your final assignment from me is perhaps the 
most important lesson you will learn in life. Go to your mother, father, 
brothers and sisters and tell them with all your heart how much you love 
them. And tell them that you know how much they love you too. Go out of 
your way to make good memories... At some point these memories may be 
all you have left. May God bless you all.".

Like Carol, I wouldn't want to be Hermione when her parents find out 
what she's taken from them!

Brian



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 22 21:12:27 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:12:27 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux ...
In-Reply-To: <hbnkar+gdo4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbqhrr+38ht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188240



---  "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> Montavilla 47:
> > But, you're right. We don't need to know what the DE's might have wanted from the Grangers that they didn't think they could get from the Weasleys or the hundreds of other students at Hogwarts.  It's enough to know that Hermione thought they knew something important and that Voldemort might want to question them about it.
> 
> Carol:
> I disagree. It's enough to know that Hermione thought that they might be tortured and needed protection--and up to that point I think that she's correct even though I doubt that either the DEs or Voldemort would expect to acquire any important information from a "Mud-Blood's" Muggle parents. They'd find other reasons to torture them.
> 
> But even supposing that she's right about the reasons for the torture, the question is whether memory modification, especially without their consent, is necessary and appropriate or a needless and inappropriate violation of their human rights. And that's where I think that Hermione crosses the line of acceptable behavior toward Muggles in general and her parents in particular.
> > 
> > ...

bboyminn:

Sorry, I'm sort of jumping into the middle of this conversation,
so if my comments have already been said...sorry.

It is well known that Hermione and Ron are close friends with
Harry. So, Hermione's parents might have been killed or tortured
out of pure vindictiveness. The Death Eaters might have sought
them out for no reason other than to punish Hermione for 
associating with Harry, and to torment Harry by extension.

The same is true of the Weasleys. At some point had the war
gone on; the Weasley's might have been killed simply because
they were too close to Harry. Though killing off another
pureblood family would not be as appealing to them. 

DE's aren't the most logical or rational people. They don't 
need much of an excuse to go after muggles. However, it is
hard to go after them if they can't find them. Now certainly
if the war had gone on for years, they could have gradually
gathered the resources necessary to track the Grangers down, 
but that is a lot of energy and resources simply to punish
Hermione and Harry. The mere threat to do so, would have
nearly the same effect as actually doing so, and in a long
war, might even lead Harry and/or Heriome to rush to the
Granger's rescue, thereby giving away their location. 

Lastly, I'm inclined to agree that we don't know what the pre-
conversation was like between the Grangers. Hermione might 
have explained everything, or she may have acted purely on her
own. Both are possible, but I don't think we can rule out either.
Hermione may have indeed had her parents permission to protect
them. There may have even been some secondary unrevealed
aspect that would allow Hermione to find them more easily when
the time came.

Though, there are some other holes that seem not to have been
plugged in this whole plan. Don't you need a passport to get
into Australia? Did Hermione charm their passports to change 
the name? How did she get visa for those fake passports? 

How were Mr. and Mrs. Ganger suppose to make a living in
Australia? There certifications a Dentists would be under
their original names, did Hermione fake that documentation too. 
And fake documentation is one thing, but what if someone in
Australia checked their references and the school of Dentistry
never heard of them under their new names?

A lot of loopholes indeed. Unless they got a visa, and worked
as common labor, maybe as a waiter and waitress or something
similar. Thereby earning just enough money to get by on until
Hermione could come and get them. But visas expire. If 
Hermione were killed or imprisoned, then it would be years, 
decades, or never before Hermione came for them. Perhaps
Australia and the UK are so closely tied that Visas and
so forth are not really a problem. 

But, if you dig beneath the surface, there are a lot of details
that seem unresolved, only the least of these is if and why
the DE's would go after them. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 00:28:39 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:28:39 -0000
Subject: Hermione and her parents Redux WAS: Re: Wizarding Top Ten
In-Reply-To: <hbpu6c+v1fh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbqtbn+2seu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188241



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Carol:
> > I disagree, for reasons I've already posted elsewhere.
> > 
> > I concede that she *says* that she's doing it because she thinks that they'll be tortured so that the DEs can find out information about Harry, but I think that she's mistaken (or deluding herself). She knows or ought to know LV has better sources of information (such as Wormtail, and, she would think, Snape) to tell him much more about Harry than her parents could. 
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> Wormtail hasn't lived with Harry for four years (he spent most of Harry's third year in hiding.) None of Harry's friends would confide his  "deepest fears" or "darkest secrets" to Snape, and Snape  carefully didn't use the occlumency lessons to find them out. <snip>

Carol responds:
Nor would Hermione confide them to her parents. Voldemort doesn't care about "personal stuff" once he's lured Harry to the MoM. All he cares about is Harry's wand, Harry's magical abilities, and psychological elements such as the "saving people complex" and a tendency to use the name Voldemort that he can use to find Harry or lure him out of hiding. I've already listed what he knows. It's more than sufficient to locate Harry more than once in HBP and to convince him to face LV face to face when the final conflict comes.

Pippin"
> No, I don't think Hermione's fears are unrealistic at all. She confided in her parents information which makes them a danger to her and to Harry, and thus, since the Grangers' survival may well depend on the success of Harry's quest, to themselves. <snip>

Carol:
I don't think that Hermione's fears that her parents will be tortured or killed are unrealistic, but I do think that anything the Grangers can reveal is insignificant. That, however, provides them no protection, as we've established. Getting away from England, however, does.
>  
>
> Carol:
>  How on earth would the DEs find them, especially if they changed their names, even if they could get there? 
> 
> Pippin:
> The DE's will find them when the Australians, who take a dim view of people entering their country illegally, deport them back to England.
> Voldemort doesn't have an army of agents looking for people who are  in Australia illegally. But the Australians do. Credentials are easy to fake, magically or otherwise. The trouble is, the police know that, so they look for other things. Nervousness, inconsistencies, all stuff that gives inexperienced liars away. Magical credentials won't solve that problem. 

Carol:
You're stepping far outside the story here. (I do think that JKR neither cared about nor thought about what would happen to the Grangers. She just wanted them conveniently out of England, so that Hermione, unlike Ron, would not be worried about her family. IMO, of course.)

Carol, who has probably made all her points on this topic several times already and thinks it's time to agree to disagree




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 03:32:14 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:32:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbr83u+u05a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188242

Carol:
<SNIP of the summary>



5. Snape asks Harry where he might find a bezoar, what he would get if he added
powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, and what the difference is
between monkshood and wolfsbane? Why do you think that Snape asked those
particular questions? Do you think that he asks the same questions to every
class or that he chose them specifically for Harry?


Alla:

Well of course after DH we can see that **JKR** (as Zara said) chose those questions to foreshadow some future plot events as well, as to Snape? I do not know if he asked those questions before or chose them specifically for Harry, but I definitely think that even if he asked those questions before, he never asked them of one student AND I speculate it is highly unlikely that he asked those questions of Muggle born.

And I agree with Geoff as to why Snape asked Harry those questions.



7. Just for fun, why do you think that Snape (and, later, Slughorn) is referred
to by the old-fashioned title "Potions master" when no other teacher (except the
headmaster or headmistress) is called by a similar title? Why not "Potions
teacher" for Snape and "Charms master" for Flitwick, for example?


Alla:

I also would like to thank Zanooda for finding the quote that I was looking for. Heck, at least I remembered the book it was in LOL. So, it IS Potions Master for Snape and Charms Master for Flitwick, I do not care that Flitwick called this way only once, the fact that he is called that way to me means that he can be called Charms Master at any time.

My speculation here will be that Snape wanting to have his ego stroked by unworthy dunderheads and other teachers insisted on being called Potion Master all the time and Flitwick being a modest person could care less about the titles. Complete speculation of course.


Alla:

8. I had a warm feeling rereading some paragraphs in this chapter; there was a paragraph that reminded me how I felt when I was discovering magical world through Harry's eyes for the first times. 

"Then there were doors that wouldn't open unless you asked politely or tickled them in exactly the right place, and doors that weren't really doors at all, but solid walls just pretending". ? p.132, paperback.

For some reason doors that needs to be tickled made me giggle, especially since I completely forgot that such doors existed in Hogwarts.

So my questions is which doors you think played important roles throughout the series and why? Which ones were your favorites?


Thank you for the questions, Carol.









From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 03:41:58 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:41:58 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbr83u+u05a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbr8m6+p823@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188243


Alla:

I also would like to thank Zanooda for finding the quote that I was looking for.
Heck, at least I remembered the book it was in LOL. <SNIP>

Alla again:

Eh, I just reread what I wrote and realized it comes off a bit sarcastic, so please be assured that sarcasm is directed at myself. I was congratulating myself that at least I remembered the book quote was in even if I was unable to remembere where exactly it was, I was not saying that I remembered the book and you did not.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 06:36:42 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 06:36:42 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbr8m6+p823@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbritq+hjoh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188244

-- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> Eh, I just reread what I wrote and realized it comes off a bit 
> sarcastic, so please be assured that sarcasm is directed at 
> myself. I was congratulating myself that at least I remembered 
> the book quote was in even if I was unable to remember where 
> exactly it was, I was not saying that I remembered the book 
> and you did not.


zanooda (rolls her eyes):

Oh, Alla, did you really have to waste a post on this (rolls her eyes again) :-)? You worry too much, of course I understand what you meant :-). Besides, if I didn't remember the book, I couldn't have given you that quote, LOL. 

Now, to go back to Flitwick: I thought maybe JKR felt the need to call him "master" this one time because what he was doing at that moment seemed so impressive to her? Just think about it: "incantations of great complexity"! Unleashing "the power of the wind"! "Protego Horribilis"! It's not some innocent "Wingardium Leviosa", LOL.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Oct 23 13:28:34 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:28:34 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbritq+hjoh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbsb22+bar9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188245

 
> Alla, earlier:
> My speculation here will be that Snape wanting to have his ego stroked by unworthy dunderheads and other teachers insisted on being called Potion Master all the time and Flitwick being a modest person could care less about the titles. Complete speculation of course.

Zanooda:
> Now, to go back to Flitwick: I thought maybe JKR felt the need to call him "master" this one time because what he was doing at that moment seemed so impressive to her? Just think about it: "incantations of great complexity"! Unleashing "the power of the wind"! "Protego Horribilis"! It's not some innocent "Wingardium Leviosa", LOL.



Potioncat:
I think it's always the narrator who uses Potions master--and not very often at that. Does anyone remember a character using it? And if so, in what context? Percy says Snape teaches potions. Snape doesn't refer to himself during the chapter as the Potions master, and neither does anyone else. It's only used in the chapter title.

So I think Zanooda is right, JKR uses "master" to set a mood about the character at the particular time. And again, I think master used in the old style for teacher.

Are any Brits following this thread?  Am I correct and is master used in school settings now?




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 14:34:02 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:34:02 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbsb22+bar9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbsesq+eepv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188246


> Potioncat:
> I think it's always the narrator who uses Potions master--and not very often at that. Does anyone remember a character using it? And if so, in what context? Percy says Snape teaches potions. Snape doesn't refer to himself during the chapter as the Potions master, and neither does anyone else. It's only used in the chapter title.

Alla:

Oh yes, I do not remember character using it either, however surely this statement can be taken as statement of fact, unless you would argue that this is a trick on JKR's behalf? What I am trying to say is that I believe that narrator calls Snape that way to show that this is indeed how he is called, same thing as when narrator tells us that for example McGonagall is the head of Gryffindor House amd Snape is the Head of Slytherins? This sort of thing?


Potioncat: 
> So I think Zanooda is right, JKR uses "master" to set a mood about the character at the particular time. And again, I think master used in the old style for teacher.<SNIP>

Alla:

Entirely possible, as I said, I was purely speculating based on what I think of Snape's character ;). 







From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 15:18:09 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:18:09 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbsb22+bar9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbshfh+8cp2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188247

Potioncat:
I think it's always the narrator who uses Potions master--and not very often at that. Does anyone remember a character using it? And if so, in what context? Percy says Snape teaches potions. Snape doesn't refer to himself during the chapter as the Potions master, and neither does anyone else. It's only used in the chapter title.
 
Janelle:
I have a memory of a character using this phrase- but I'm worried it might be movie-contamination.

In COS when the teachers are talking about preparing the mandrake potion that will wake up the petrified people, Lockhart volunteers to make it and Snape says something along the lines of "I'm the Potions Master at this school, I'll do it"

Anyone else remember this?





From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 15:23:22 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:23:22 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbr83u+u05a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbshpa+eu1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188248

Alla:
So my questions is which doors you think played important roles throughout the series and why? Which ones were your favorites?

Janelle:
Interesting question.  Obviously the door to the Room of Requirement plays a huge role in the story.  Not only is there a very specific way to open that door (or even to make it appear), but the door itself can move to a different location if that's what you need it to do (as shown in DH).  The door to the forbidden third floor corridor is also important because of what is hidden behind it!

Other doors that amuse or intrigue me are: the door in the ceiling leading to Professor Trelawney's room, the door to the trophy room which is "always unlocked," and the doors that "aren't doors at all, but solid walls just pretending"!  That passage describing the school and it's many corners and doors has always been one of my favorites, although I'm not totally sure why...




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 16:08:11 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:08:11 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbr83u+u05a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbskdb+s4bp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188249

Alla wrote:
> 8. I had a warm feeling rereading some paragraphs in this chapter; there was a paragraph that reminded me how I felt when I was discovering magical world through Harry's eyes for the first times. 
> 
> "Then there were doors that wouldn't open unless you asked politely or tickled them in exactly the right place, and doors that weren't really doors at all, but solid walls just pretending". ? p.132, paperback.
> 
> For some reason doors that needs to be tickled made me giggle, especially since I completely forgot that such doors existed in Hogwarts.
> 
> So my questions is which doors you think played important roles throughout the series and why? Which ones were your favorites?

Carol responds:

The line about tickling the doors seems to me to foreshadow the door to the kitchen, which requires tickling the pear to get in. Other doors besides the one to the RoR that play a role in the story include the locked door to the third-floor corridor (which requires a simple Alohomora to get past) and the doors to the various common rooms. Interestingly, to me, the door to the Ravenclaw common room has a knocker, so it's recognizable as a door even though the outline of the door, IIRC, isn't visible, but, appropriately for Ravenclaw, it requires the would-be entrant to answer a riddle. the door (really a round opening) to the Gryffindor common room is, of course, covered by a portrait that swings open if you speak the password. (The headmaster's office also requires a password and the wall behind the gargoyle turns into a door allowing access to the moving staircase.) the Slytherin common room, which we see in CoS, is a clear case of a door pretending to be a blank wall; it, too, requires a password, but there's no knocker or portrait to indicate where it is. Maybe that detail reflects Salazar Slytherin's secretive personality; I assume that he designed it, just as the other Founders designed their own common rooms from the location to the means of entering. We don't see the Hufflepuff common room, but I remember that JKR described it in an interview. I can't remember whether it has a portrait, but it probably does. 

BTW, I suspect that Helga Hufflepuff designed the entry to the kitchen, which (IIRC) is in the same corridor as the Hufflepuff common room, which seems in character for her cheerful, open personality. After all, the fat, cheerful Hufflepuff ghost must have enjoyed food, and Helga's cherished treasure was a cup with handles, which seems to be associated with wine or some other pleasant drink.

Carol, just having fun with Alla's question and having trouble typing "Hufflepuff" ("Hugglepubb"!) this morning  




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 18:11:31 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:11:31 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbshfh+8cp2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbsrkj+l3dk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188250

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jelly92784" <jelly92784 at ...> wrote:

> In COS when the teachers are talking about preparing the 
> mandrake potion that will wake up the petrified people, 
> Lockhart volunteers to make it and Snape says something 
> along the lines of "I'm the Potions Master at this school, I'll do it"
> Anyone else remember this?


zanooda:

Yes, he said something like "excuse me, I believe *I* am the Potions master at this school" :-). He also called himself "master of this school" when he was trying to make the Marauder's map work in PoA ("Snape's Grudge").






From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 18:33:31 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:33:31 -0000
Subject: Chapt Discussion: HPSS/CS  Ch8 - Additional Questions
In-Reply-To: <hbm7pe+f3l3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbsstr+3cun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188251



---  "Alorkin" <Alorkin at ...> wrote:
>...
>  
> 8. Feel free to add your own question. 
> 
> **Why is the castle off limits to students after hours?  Why has no one done anything about Snape's blatant abuses of power?  Why did none of the staff suspect anything about Quirrell?  Snape covets the position, surely his unmasking Quirrelmort would guarantee him the position.  Why does Dumbledore foster the interhouse hatreds through his inaction?  
> 
> Alorkin
>

bboyminn:

Not quite up to tackling the other questions, so I'll touch
on these -

1.) Why is the castle off limits to students after hours?

Are you insane? (smiley face) Think of the discipline problems
in the average American school, now imagine those same students
boarding at the school. If there weren't fully enforced strict 
rule, it would be anarchy. 

We see clearly from the time that students are out of bed
after hours, that it is for no /good/ reason. It is most
surely for some type of mischief making. Dueling, sneaking
illegal dragons around, brewing potions, sneaking off to 
enter dangerous and forbidden chamber, sneaking off school
grounds...anarchy and chaos I tell you, anarchy and chaos.

It has to be a nightmare controlling students in a boarding
school. 


2.) Why has no one done anything about Snape's blatant abuses
of power? 

Keep in mind that we are talking about a school system that
thought it was alright to cane students up until very recently.

English schools aren't like namby-pamby American schools. They,
at least until in recent history, were very strict and brutal. 
Though most British thoughr the caning and other barbaric 
behavior built character, so they let it go on. I can't
believe more students weren't killed during that period of
history.

So, a stict miserable teacher like Snape wouldn't have been
that out of place in the older British school system. Consider
Snape very much like the average nun in Catholic School. 


3.) Why did none of the staff suspect anything about Quirrell?

I think earlier in your post you asked, why didn't anyone
notice Quirrell, referring mostly to the fact he smelled.

I think they did notice that he smelled, but what could they do,
suggest he take a shower? They knew he was scared of vampires,
and they knew he smelled strongly of garlic, so it seemed a
logical progression - smell...garlic...vampires...afraid.

As to why they didn't suspect him, well partly because he was
clearly an odd ball, and as such, do to his timidness, he was
likely to be least suspected. The Quirrell Harry met down in 
the Chamber was not the same Quirrell that was presented to 
the staff on a routine basis over the course of years. 

Snape, in the eyes of most of the students, would certainly
seem like a much more likely suspect. 

Look at real life as an example, it is not the loud obnoxious
obvious jerk, but the quiet unassuming guy hiding in the corner
who ends up in a bell tower with a rifle.

As to Snape unmasking Quirrell in order to get his job, well
we know Snape and Quirrell were having a degree of conflict.
We know Snape suspected him of something. So, Snape wasn't
exactly ignoring Quirrell. In fact, more than anyone else, it
was Snape who did suspect Quirrell, and was doing something
to stop him. And, I'm sure if Snape had any proof, he would 
have had no reservations in taking Quirrell down. 


4.) Why does Dumbledore foster the inter-house hatreds through
his inaction?  

No offense, but I think you might be looking at the British
Hogwarts through modern touchy-feely American eyes. Keep in 
mind it wasn't that long ago, that caning of a sort was 
actually common in American school, just not quite to the 
degree it was in British boarding schools. 

I don't think Dumbledore fosters hatred through inaction. I
think he understands that schoolboys will inevitably find
sources of schoolboy rivalries. Think of real world Soccer
firms and hooligans, who fanatically and brutally support their
various soccer teams. And to some extent, though to a lesser
degree, we find similar with American sports team fans. Why
don't the authorities try to stop it? Because to try and stop
it, to assume you could stamp it out completely, would be an
excersize in futility. 

I also suspect that once they are grown up a bit, those same
schoolboys have little or no problem dealing with other 
Houses in daily life. This whole fanatic schoolboy rivalry,
is just that, something for impetuous impulsive hormone ridden
schoolboys. I think it softens tremendously in adult life. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Oct 23 19:09:46 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (Susan A)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:09:46 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <4ADF6DE1.8020304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hbsv1q+7pu4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188252

SSSusan:
> > I really don't get what you're saying when you say she was a 
> > child of the internet cast back into 1945.  What in canon tells 
> > us that Hermione loved and desired her Muggle life much more than 
> > her Wizarding World life? Or that she missed things she would've 
> > had in the MW that she no longer had access to or could achieve 
> > in the WW?  

rick:
> I think you missed the preceding messages.  The argument was that 
> Hg was well educated for her age and her parents--well educated and 
> successful professional--would have had conveyed expectations and 
> hopes for her future.  Well educated professionals tend to breed 
> well educated professionals.  

SSSusan:
No, I don't think I did.  I read a number of the posts and I understand your position that well-educated professionals tend to breed (or, I'd say, raise) well-educated professionals.

What I was not following was the point of the phrase you used.  But that's okay.  I do not disagree with you about the point of the tendency from parents to child.

On the other hand, when you say this:

Rick:
> I just don't see Hg really working out in the WW or being happy 
> with a high school education, particularly when the life she'd been 
> dropped into was some 50 years behind her times (any more than Ron 
> would have worked out well in the muggle world 50 years ahead 
> of his time). 

SSSusan:
I stick to my previous question.  See below....

SSSusan:
> > So I'd ask again, what is there in canon which shows us the 
> > *opposite* for Hermione?  That is, what shows us she was less 
> > satisfied, less fulfilled in the WW?  Isn't this actually you 
> > putting *onto* her certain desires and hopes for her life based 
> > upon talents you see in her?  How do we know she would concur 
> > that life in the RW would've been more fulfilling?
   
rick:
> I think this round cooked off when I referred to Hogwarts as a 
> trade school education.

SSSusan:
I still don't see this as answering my question.  Because my question is:  Are you not simply projecting *your* definition of what a successful and fulfilling life looks like for someone born to well-educated professionals onto Hermione?  How do you know, from canon, that she wanted the life you're saying she would surely have wanted?  

Simply because there is a tendency for a well-educated professional to breed (or raise) another doesn't mean it's a given, nor that for each individual child of well-educated professionals, those desires are internalized.  Some find other things makes their lives fulfilling.  That's what I'm questioning.  How do we KNOW Hermione felt as you suggest?  It seems presumptive to me, is all.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 19:24:41 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:24:41 -0000
Subject: Chapt Discussions -PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER  - Who Said?
In-Reply-To: <hbsb22+bar9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbsvtp+knhe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188253



---  "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> ...
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> I think it's always the narrator who uses Potions master--and not very often at that. Does anyone remember a character using it? And if so, in what context? Percy says Snape teaches potions. Snape doesn't refer to himself during the chapter as the Potions master, and neither does anyone else. It's only used in the chapter title.
> 
> So I think Zanooda is right, JKR uses "master" to set a mood about the character at the particular time. And again, I think master used in the old style for teacher.
> 
> Are any Brits following this thread?  Am I correct and is master used in school settings now?
>

bboyminn:

Upon reading your comment, I can think of only one person
who actually, in direct dialog, called Snape 'Potions master',
and that was Snape himself.

"We will be able to cure her, Argus," said Dumbledore...
Blah, blah, blah, ...Mandrake root potion.

"I'll make it, " Lockhart butted in. ...blah, blah, blah,...

"Excuse me," said Snape icily. "But I believe I an the Potions
master at this school."

I don't know what to make of it, but notice that "Potions"
is capitalized and "master" is not. If 'master' were a
title, wouldn't it be 'Master'? 

Though, I can't place the actual dialog, I'm thinking that
Lupin may have referred to Snape as 'potions master'. 

I also think that Potions is very different than other 
classes. It takes a very different skill set, especially
if you intend to go beyond copying recipes. If you expect
to do anything innovative or creative, you need to have
more than the ability to read.

This of a Master Chef or Master Electrician. To reach the
'master' level you have to have demostrated a degree of
creative thinking, and ability to solve problems beyond
following the rules.

To some extent, I think that Snape having and being able to
do his job, is sufficient to qualify him as 'master' status,
and we see that Snape's knowledge of potions goes far beyond
giving student recipes to copy. 

So, what I'm saying is that Snape has certainly demonstrated
'master' level potions skills. 

Steve/bboyminn





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 19:32:20 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:32:20 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbsesq+eepv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbt0c4+tmgd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188254



---  "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Potioncat:
> > I think it's always the narrator who uses Potions master--
> > and not very often at that. ...
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh yes, I do not remember character using it either, however surely this statement can be taken as statement of fact, unless you would argue that this is a trick on JKR's behalf? What I am trying to say is that I believe that narrator calls Snape that way to show that this is indeed how he is called, same thing as when narrator tells us that for example McGonagall is the head of Gryffindor House amd Snape is the Head of Slytherins? This sort of thing?
> 
> ...

bboyminn:

Well, what I'm going to say is pure speculation, but I believe
it is logical pure speculation.

I think Snape is a Potions Master independent of the fact that
he is also a teacher. Though being teacher makes him Potions
Master of the School.

Professor Snape - Portion Master of Hogwarts

I think being a 'Potions Master' indicates a level of creative
skill in potion making that goes beyond following recipes. So,
I think Snape could fairly call himself a Potions Master, even
if he was not a teacher at the school. 

I suspect it is possible to have a Potions teacher who is, in 
a certain sense, not a potions master. In other words, he is 
good at getting student to follow recipes, and understanding
their mistakes, but he lacks the creativity to conceive and
create new potions. 

Just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 19:52:15 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:52:15 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <hbsv1q+7pu4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbt1hf+qgt7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188255



---  "Susan A" <susiequsie23 at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> On the other hand, when you say this:
> 
> Rick:
> > I just don't see Hg really working out in the WW or being
> > happy with a high school education, particularly when the
> > life she'd been  dropped into was some 50 years behind her
> > times > > ...
> 
> ...
>    
> rick:
> > I think this round cooked off when I referred to Hogwarts as a 
> > trade school education.
> 
> SSSusan:
> ...  Because my question is:  Are you not simply projecting *your* definition of what a successful and fulfilling life looks like for someone born to well-educated professionals onto Hermione?...
> 
> Simply because there is a tendency for a well-educated professional to breed (or raise) another doesn't mean it's a given, nor that for each individual child of well-educated professionals, those desires are internalized.  Some find other things makes their lives fulfilling.  That's what I'm questioning.  How do we KNOW Hermione felt as you suggest?  It seems presumptive to me, is all.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan
>


bboyminn:

I think Rick is out of the country now, but maybe he will
follow the thread on-line rather than by email.

I can see a degree of Rick's point, but I think mostly I tend
to side with SSSusan.

Perhaps Rick's points is not so much about Hermione, but the
world expectations for Hermione. I think we can see this in
real life. A kid has a job he loves doing something he loves
to do, but his parents, friends, and relatives think he is
wasting his time. Not that uncommon.

So, if that is his point, then to some extent I can agree
that Hermione's life probably doesn't live up to the 
expectations of others.

But Rick says specifically - 

"I just don't see Hg really working out in the WW or being
happy with a high school education, ..."

My earlier point, that I made more than once, is that
Hermione, nor Harry, nor anyone, is locked into an all or
nothing situation. Hermione is not imprisoned in the Magic
world. If she wants to go to university, I think she can
find a way. 

Also, depending on the muggle profession she is interested in,
she may be able to develop the necessary skills without a
certification from an education institution. There are 
countless options open to her, and I suspect an ambitions
intelligent person like Hermione would have no problem
gaining a foothold in the muggle world if she chose to do
so.

Again, Hermione is exiled to the wizard world, she can come
and go as she pleases, and most probable does.

Steve/bboyminn 




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 23 19:58:01 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:58:01 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education - correction
In-Reply-To: <hbt1hf+qgt7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbt1s9+sijp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188256



---  "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
>...
> 
> Again, Hermione is exiled to the wizard world, she can come
> and go as she pleases, and most probable does.
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>

bboyminn:

Well, it seems fairly obvious, but the above statement should
read -

"...Hermione is NOT exiled to the wizard world...."

Steve/bboyminn




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Oct 23 21:51:43 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (Susan A)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 21:51:43 -0000
Subject: The Quality of a Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <hbt1hf+qgt7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbt8hf+u74i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188257

SSSusan:
> > ...  Because my question is:  Are you not simply projecting 
> > *your* definition of what a successful and fulfilling life looks 
> > like for someone born to well-educated professionals onto 
> > Hermione?...
> > 
> > Simply because there is a tendency for a well-educated 
> > professional to breed (or raise) another doesn't mean it's a 
> > given, nor that for each individual child of well-educated 
> > professionals, those desires are internalized.  Some find other 
> > things makes their lives fulfilling.  That's what I'm 
> > questioning.  How do we KNOW Hermione felt as you suggest?  It 
> > seems presumptive to me, is all.

bboyminn:
> I think Rick is out of the country now, but maybe he will
> follow the thread on-line rather than by email.

SSSusan:
Thanks, Steve. :)


bboyminn: 
> I can see a degree of Rick's point, but I think mostly I tend
> to side with SSSusan.
> 
> Perhaps Rick's points is not so much about Hermione, but the
> world expectations for Hermione. I think we can see this in
> real life. A kid has a job he loves doing something he loves
> to do, but his parents, friends, and relatives think he is
> wasting his time. Not that uncommon.
>
> So, if that is his point, then to some extent I can agree
> that Hermione's life probably doesn't live up to the 
> expectations of others.

SSSusan:
Absolutely.  If that's the point, I agree that the *world* may make such judgments. 

But I'm with you, Steve.  Heck, *I* have degrees I'm not using; I'm in a job that's not the greatest-paying and which is significantly "less" than what I'm qualified for.  By some people's reckoning, surely I must be disappointed, discouraged, unfulfilled.  But I don't really feel that way.  Well, heh, other than maybe wishing I earned more. ;)  

My life feels fulfilling to me, even though I'm not using specific talents, skills, training, education that I've had.  The world may have had other expectations for me, and perhaps all the moreso because my parents are well-educated professionals, and yet I don't feel unfulfilled or unsuccessful.  Maybe this is why I have questioned what Rick has been saying and is why I have asked whether we have clues from canon itself that Hermione herself is dissatisfied or truly likely to be dissatisfied.


bboyminn:
> But Rick says specifically - 
> 
> "I just don't see Hg really working out in the WW or being
> happy with a high school education, ..."
> 
> My earlier point, that I made more than once, is that
> Hermione, nor Harry, nor anyone, is locked into an all or
> nothing situation. Hermione is not imprisoned in the Magic
> world. If she wants to go to university, I think she can
> find a way. 

SSSusan:
And I agree with this.  There may be particular courses of study which she would rule out if she wanted to stay primarily in the WW [dentistry, for once... although heaven knows we encounter an awful lot of W&W who have lousy teeth ;)], but if she wanted RW university, if it would make her life more full, I agree that she could probably make it happen.  In fact, it would be easier for the Muggle-born to do this, would it not?  Having spent the first 11 years of their lives living fully in the RW and knowing the ropes, as it were?

bboyminn: 
> Also, depending on the muggle profession she is interested in,
> she may be able to develop the necessary skills without a
> certification from an education institution. There are 
> countless options open to her, and I suspect an ambitions
> intelligent person like Hermione would have no problem
> gaining a foothold in the muggle world if she chose to do
> so.
> 
> Again, Hermione is exiled to the wizard world, she can come
> and go as she pleases, and most probable does.

SSSusan:
I am assuming you meant "*not* exiled to the WW" here, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 24 03:32:47 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 03:32:47 -0000
Subject: Chapt Discussion: HPSS/CS  Ch8 - Additional Questions
In-Reply-To: <hbsstr+3cun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbtsgv+2t13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188258

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:


> 3.) Why did none of the staff suspect anything about Quirrell?
 
> I think earlier in your post you asked, why didn't anyone
> notice Quirrell, referring mostly to the fact he smelled.
 
> I think they did notice that he smelled, but what could they do,
> suggest he take a shower?


zanooda:

I'm really sorry for the possible OT, but you reminded me that the Russian translation of the book claims that Quirrell also didn't change clothes at all and slept at night in his day clothes, so that the vampire couldn't catch him off guard :-). I suppose poor Russian readers don't have any questions about that smell... :-).




From crbrett at blueyonder.co.uk  Sat Oct 24 11:12:47 2009
From: crbrett at blueyonder.co.uk (crbrett at blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 12:12:47 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re;  CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8  THE POTIONS MASTER
Message-ID: <49312.77.100.190.206.1256382767.QFNAHmkJSUB7.squirrel@77.100.190.206>

No: HPFGUIDX 188259

This is my first response to a thread despite being a member for a while. 
I feel somewhat intimidated by the level of knowledge of some of you out
there. However - Potioncat asks if there are any Brits out here following
the thread and I am one of those. I attended a British Grammar School back
in the 1960's and it was perfectly normal to have  the teachers referred
to as Masters (or Mistresses).   I must admit to the term Potions Master
not causing me any problem whatsoever.  The term is probably still used
today - particularly in public schools.

Chris





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Oct 24 13:11:53 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 13:11:53 -0000
Subject: Re;  CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8  THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <49312.77.100.190.206.1256382767.QFNAHmkJSUB7.squirrel@77.100.190.206>
Message-ID: <hbuuep+ed8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188260

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, crbrett at ... wrote:

Chris:
> This is my first response to a thread despite being a member for a while. 
> I feel somewhat intimidated by the level of knowledge of some of you out
> there. However - Potioncat asks if there are any Brits out here following
> the thread and I am one of those. I attended a British Grammar School back
> in the 1960's and it was perfectly normal to have  the teachers referred
> to as Masters (or Mistresses).   I must admit to the term Potions Master
> not causing me any problem whatsoever.  The term is probably still used
> today - particularly in public schools.

Geoff:

Likewise, in the 1950s.

There is also the fact that one of the largest teaching unions in the UK is the 
NASUWT (National Association of Schoolmaster and Union of Women Teachers).

Potioncat will be pleased to know that there are at least two Brits following 
the thread. Pleased to meet another Brit.






From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sat Oct 24 17:08:04 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:08:04 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbshfh+8cp2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbvc9k+2o27@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188261



Janelle:
I have a memory of a character using this phrase- but I'm worried it might be movie-contamination.
 
In COS when the teachers are talking about preparing the mandrake potion that will wake up the petrified people, Lockhart volunteers to make it and Snape says something along the lines of "I'm the Potions Master at this school, I'll do it"
 
Anyone else remember this?

Marianne:

I'm looking at Bloomsbury, paperback, Great Britan, page 158, book.

"Excuse me" said Snape icily, "but I believe that I am the Potions master at this school."

When HR calls Snape Snape in front of Professor Dumbledore he always corrects them by saying Professor Snape.  Not seen potions master as a title.  I'm thinking that potions master is just that.  He is a master, extremely sklled, at making potions.

For some reason it surprises me that Dumbledore, at times, calls the teachers by their first names in front of the students.  Severus, Minerva, Sybil Trawlney, Argus Filch. Madam Pomfrey. Is it Poppy????  Are there any other names that I can't think of?  I'm going by what I can remember right off the bat.  Sorry.  I'm butchering the spelling of some of the names.




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sat Oct 24 17:19:53 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:19:53 -0000
Subject: Chapt Discussions -PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER  - Who Said?
In-Reply-To: <hbsvtp+knhe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbvcvp+mf88@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188262



bboyminn:
 
Upon reading your comment, I can think of only one person who actually, in direct dialog, called Snape 'Potions master',
and that was Snape himself.
 
"We will be able to cure her, Argus," said Dumbledore...
Blah, blah, blah, ...Mandrake root potion.
 
"I'll make it, " Lockhart butted in. ...blah, blah, blah,...
 
"Excuse me," said Snape icily. "But I believe I an the Potions
master at this school."
 
I don't know what to make of it, but notice that "Potions"
is capitalized and "master" is not. If 'master' were a
title, wouldn't it be 'Master'? 
 
Though, I can't place the actual dialog, I'm thinking that
Lupin may have referred to Snape as 'potions master'. 
 
I also think that Potions is very different than other 
classes. It takes a very different skill set, especially
if you intend to go beyond copying recipes. If you expect
to do anything innovative or creative, you need to have
more than the ability to read.
 
 This of a Master Chef or Master Electrician. To reach the
'master' level you have to have demostrated a degree of
creative thinking, and ability to solve problems beyond
following the rules.
 
To some extent, I think that Snape having and being able to
do his job, is sufficient to qualify him as 'master' status,
 and we see that Snape's knowledge of potions goes far beyond
giving student recipes to copy. 
 
 So, what I'm saying is that Snape has certainly demonstrated
'master' level potions skills. 
 
Steve/bboyminn


Marianne:

Sorry.  I didn't go further down to read if another person had wrote about Snape's position before I wrote anything.




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 24 22:30:00 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 22:30:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbvc9k+2o27@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hbvv58+m1ji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188263

Marianne:
For some reason it surprises me that Dumbledore, at times, calls the teachers by
their first names in front of the students. Severus, Minerva, Sybil Trawlney,
Argus Filch. Madam Pomfrey. Is it Poppy???? Are there any other names that I
can't think of? I'm going by what I can remember right off the bat. Sorry.
I'm butchering the spelling of some of the names.

Janelle:
That's an interesting point.  I know that he does this in front of Harry, Ron and Hermione (and possibly the other Weasleys, too), but do we see him address any teachers by first names in front of other students?  Maybe it's because he has a bigger relationship with the trio than merely teacher and student and he considers them to be closer to an equal level with him than the other students?





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 24 23:48:01 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 23:48:01 -0000
Subject: Re;  CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8  THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbuuep+ed8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc03nh+d01e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188264



---  "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  crbrett@ wrote:
> 
> Chris:
> > ... However - Potioncat asks if there are any Brits out 
> > here following the thread and I am one of those. I 
> > attended a British Grammar School back in the 1960's and
> > it was perfectly normal to have  the teachers referred
> > to as Masters (or Mistresses).   ...
> 
> Geoff:
> 
> Likewise, in the 1950s.
> 
> There is also the fact that one of the largest teaching 
> unions in the UK is the NASUWT (National Association of 
> Schoolmaster and Union of Women Teachers).
> 
> Potioncat will be pleased to know that there are at least
> two Brits following the thread. Pleased to meet another Brit.
>

bboyminn:

Here is a thought I had, and I wondered if it has any relevance
to the wizard world or to common British schools.

We have a Head Master, so logically he is the lead of the
general Masters. But, are the general masters then head of
common teachers. In this sense are all teachers 'masters'
and the Head Master is merely the head teacher. 

Or, is there a hierarchy, Head Masters, followed by Assistant
Head Masters, followed by Masters, followed by teachers?  

In the USA, the administrative brand of a local school is
made up of Principals, Vice Principals, Assistant Principals,
etc... who may be, but usually are not active teacher. They
take care of administrative task and are generally responsible
for maintaining order and doling out punishments.

Getting sent to the Principal's office, is like getting sent
to the Head Masters office. 

Curious?

Steve/bboyminn




From juli17 at aol.com  Sun Oct 25 00:29:04 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17ptf)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:29:04 -0000
Subject: Chapt Discussions -PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER  - Who Said?
In-Reply-To: <hbvcvp+mf88@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc064g+uio7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188265


> 
> bboyminn:
>
> <snip> 
> I also think that Potions is very different than other 
> classes. It takes a very different skill set, especially
> if you intend to go beyond copying recipes. If you expect
> to do anything innovative or creative, you need to have
> more than the ability to read.
>  
>  This of a Master Chef or Master Electrician. To reach the
> 'master' level you have to have demostrated a degree of
> creative thinking, and ability to solve problems beyond
> following the rules.
>  
> To some extent, I think that Snape having and being able to
> do his job, is sufficient to qualify him as 'master' status,
>  and we see that Snape's knowledge of potions goes far beyond
> giving student recipes to copy. 
>  
>  So, what I'm saying is that Snape has certainly demonstrated
> 'master' level potions skills. 
>  
> Steve/bboyminn
> 

Julie:
I agree. Potions also have many medical applications,
so Snape's skill is certainly one of the most important
in the WW. It may be that Snape has some sort of degree
or certificate identifying him as a "master" level 
Potioneer (if that's an actual word!). It's what I've
always assumed the "master" title and references meant.

What I find interesting is how clear the text makes
Snape's skill level in Potions, as even Snape refers
to himself as the Potions master at the school (a title
I don't recall ever being applied to Slughorn). He's
obviously very talented at Potions and has acheived a
level of competence that few wizards do, yet we are 
supposed to believe all he's ever wanted to do is teach
Defense of the Dark Arts.

It is also interesting that we don't ever learn if
that is *really* Snape's deepest desire, or if Snape's
applying for the position every year is at least in part
a deliberate machination by Dumbledore. True, Snape sneers
at every DADA teacher the moment they arrive, but all 
the DADA teachers with the possible exception of Lupin
(an exception Snape wouldn't make given their history)
were infinitely sneer-worthy. And though we hear second-
hand from students and perhaps a professor or two (don't
recall any specific examples of the latter, but it is
quite likely), and from Dumbledore (who is always playing
a role), we never hear it directly from Snape.

It seems to me that if Snape is so skilled at Potions,
and speaks of Potion-making so eloquently (as in his
opening speech in PS/SS), he must truly enjoy it. And 
it doesn't make much sense that he would want the DADA 
position when he knows it is cursed, even if he thinks
it would be easier or less frustrating to teach DADA
to all those dunderhead students at Hogwarts.

It's too bad that JKR didn't take the opportunity to
clarify Snape's feelings about teaching DADA versus
Potions, or about the practice of both skills. I still
wonder if Snape had survived in the end and was free to
pursue his own desires, whether he would have chosen to
pursue Potions (making, refining, inventing) or if he
would have preferred a DADA-related field (though that
might lead to the Aurors, where he might or might not
be welcome). 

Julie


 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 25 00:48:49 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:48:49 -0000
Subject: Re;  CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8  THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <49312.77.100.190.206.1256382767.QFNAHmkJSUB7.squirrel@77.100.190.206>
Message-ID: <hc079h+3stg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188266



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, crbrett at ... wrote:
>
> This is my first response to a thread despite being a member for a while. 
> I feel somewhat intimidated by the level of knowledge of some of you out
> there. However - Potioncat asks if there are any Brits out here following
> the thread and I am one of those. I attended a British Grammar School back
> in the 1960's and it was perfectly normal to have  the teachers referred
> to as Masters (or Mistresses).   I must admit to the term Potions Master
> not causing me any problem whatsoever.  The term is probably still used
> today - particularly in public schools.


Alla:

Welcome to the list, Chris!  As Brit could you clarify whether title of Master has anything to do with the skill of the teacher or it is just a title that means nothing besides the fact that such person teaches in the school?


I always thought that it has nothing to do whatsoever with teacher's skill and speculate that Snape himself attached importance to it.

Steve:
<HUGE SNIP>
So, what I'm saying is that Snape has certainly demonstrated
> 'master' level potions skills.<SNIP>

Alla:

I guess I disagree, I do not believe that any sort of exam needed for master position, I think it is just a name, but maybe Brits on the list (including Geoff of course heh) will say otherwise?


zanooda:

Yes, he said something like "excuse me, I believe *I* am the Potions master at
this school" :-). He also called himself "master of this school" when he was
trying to make the Marauder's map work in PoA ("Snape's Grudge").


Alla:

AHA, yes he did, thanks for reminding me guys!  So that I think does not contradict my speculation, IF in reality it is just a name for the teacher's position, or another name and has nothing to do with skill, Snape is massaging his ego here, since he may have simply said  something along the lines - excuse me I am a potions teacher here.

JMO,

Alla





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 25 03:55:04 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 03:55:04 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbvv58+m1ji@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc0i6o+bk8r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188267



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jelly92784" <jelly92784 at ...> wrote:
>
> Marianne:
> For some reason it surprises me that Dumbledore, at times, calls the teachers by
> their first names in front of the students. Severus, Minerva, Sybil Trawlney,
> Argus Filch. Madam Pomfrey. Is it Poppy???? Are there any other names that I
> can't think of? I'm going by what I can remember right off the bat. Sorry.
> I'm butchering the spelling of some of the names.
> 
> Janelle:
> That's an interesting point.  I know that he does this in front of Harry, Ron and Hermione (and possibly the other Weasleys, too), but do we see him address any teachers by first names in front of other students?  Maybe it's because he has a bigger relationship with the trio than merely teacher and student and he considers them to be closer to an equal level with him than the other students?
>
Carol responds:
Although he apparently expects the students to refer to the teachers as "Professor Snape," etc., and generally but not always refers to them in the third person by their titles (at least when he's addressing Harry--the chief exception being the references to "Severus" when he's desperately weak from the cave potion), Dumbledore himself addresses almost everyone, adult, student, or portrait, by first names--not only Snape and McGonagall and Madam Pomfrey but Petunia Dursley and Fenrir Greyback and the Carrows and Fudge. I suppose it's the privilege of the very old to be on a first-name basis with just about everyone.

Carol, wondering if this tendency is part of DD's superiority complex since it clearly doesn't reflect his affection or lack of it toward the person addressed




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 25 04:10:25 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 04:10:25 -0000
Subject: Re;  CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8  THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hc079h+3stg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc0j3h+hhq8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188268

> Steve:
> <HUGE SNIP>
> So, what I'm saying is that Snape has certainly demonstrated 'master' level potions skills.<SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I guess I disagree, I do not believe that any sort of exam needed for master position, I think it is just a name, but maybe Brits on the list (including Geoff of course heh) will say otherwise?
 
> zanooda:
> 
> Yes, he said something like "excuse me, I believe *I* am the Potions master at this school" :-). He also called himself "master of this school" when he was trying to make the Marauder's map work in PoA ("Snape's Grudge").
> 
> Alla:
> 
> AHA, yes he did, thanks for reminding me guys!  So that I think does not contradict my speculation, IF in reality it is just a name for the teacher's position, or another name and has nothing to do with skill, Snape is massaging his ego here, since he may have simply said  something along the lines - excuse me I am a potions teacher here.

Carol responds:
Since I asked the question originally, I'll just toss in my own opinion, which is that the Potions teacher, for whatever reason, is traditionally referred to as the Potions master, perhaps because it's of the oldest subjects in the school and dates back to the days when all male teachers were referred to as masters. Slughorn in HBP is also referred to as the Potions master, so even though both of them are highly skilled at their subject (Snape perhaps more so since DD relies on him for potion-making as well as Potions teaching), I think it's merely the job title, and that's why Snape calls himself "master of this school," which no doubt sounds less odd to British ears than it does to others.

The fact that Flitwick is once referred to as the Charms master also suggests that it means "teacher."

With regard to Lockhart, Snape has every reason to point out to him that it's *his* job, not Lockhart's, to make the mandrake restorative potion (as if Lockhart could actually make it, in any case).

Carol, just stating her own view and finding all the replies interesting




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Oct 25 16:33:54 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 16:33:54 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hbm1l0+pgu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc1uli+uhnr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188269


>
Chapter 8
> Questions for Discussion:

> >
2. Harry takes five core subjects?Herbology, Potions, Charms, Transfiguration, and Defense Against the Dark Arts, along with History of Magic and Astronomy. What do you think of this set of classes for a group of eleven-year-old novice witches and wizards? Which class (setting aside the instructors since we barely glimpse any of them except Snape) would be your favorite and why?

Potioncat:
I think JKR had young people in mind when she wrote SS/PS. Kids would love the idea of these courses rather than maths, English, science. Don't they sound fun? Of course, we'll find out as time goes on that the courses can be just as tedious as regular courses. I think Charms would be my favorite--I would be as bad as Neville in Potions. 

> >
3. Why do you think that Quirrell's turban and classroom smell like garlic? Did his blushing and confusion when Seamus asked him about fighting off the zombie arouse your suspicion? What was your initial reaction when Quirrell rescued Harry and Ron from detention with Filch for trying to get through the forbidden door?

Potioncat:
I guess it's the smell associated with having LV in the back of his head. Unless it really was garlic that he'd put into the turban to strengthen the vampire story. I didn't doubt Quirrell's story or timidity at all. Reading it now, I realize the bad guys can make themselves seem friendly easily enough.  Quirrell gets Harry out of a jam with Filch and Crouch takes Draco down a peg or two. 

JKR develops Quirrell and Snape very slowly, setting us up to misjudge them both. 


> >
5. Snape asks Harry where he might find a bezoar, what he would get if he added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood, and what the difference is between monkshood and wolfsbane? Why do you think that Snape asked those particular questions? Do you think that he asks the same questions to every class or that he chose them specifically for Harry?

Potioncat:
I imagine now that these ingredients have to do with potions being taught this year. I used to think it was business as usual for Snape, but now I know he was singling Harry out. So I'm not as sure that he does the same thing in other classes. Yet, I wouldn't put it past him to ask the sorts of questions on a regular basis that are intended to catch an unprepared student. I'm not saving Harry should have known the answers. Either Hermione is the only one who does, or the only one willing to be called upon.
> >
6. When Snape asks Harry about the bezoar, Harry wonders whether Snape expects him to have memorized every word of "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi." But the Potions text mentioned in "Diagon Alley" is "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger. "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" is almost certainly the Herbology text. How do you explain this apparent error on JKR's part?

Potioncat:
I think it's Harry's mistake, not hers. But who knows at this point?

My questions:
This chapter begins with Hogwart students following after Harry. They notice Ron too. One of the whispered comments was,
"Next to the tall kid with the red hair."

What do you think Ron was thinking about Harry's celebrity and his own place in the scheme of things? Why don't Gryffindors treat Harry with the same sort of awe the other students do? 




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Oct 25 16:58:59 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 25 Oct 2009 16:58:59 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/25/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1256489939.11.68709.m5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188270

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday October 25, 2009
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. 

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK


All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2009 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20091025/867a5e4e/attachment.html>

From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Oct 25 17:10:12 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:10:12 -0000
Subject: Re;  CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8  THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hc079h+3stg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc20pk+6smv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188271

Chris:
I must admit to the term Potions Master not causing me any problem whatsoever.  The term is probably still used today - particularly in public schools.
> 
> 
> Alla:
 
> I always thought that it has nothing to do whatsoever with teacher's skill and speculate that Snape himself attached importance to it.

Potioncat:
Welcome to the list, Chris. Please feel free to post at will.

It looks like Potions master and Potions teacher are interchanagble. Potions master and  Charms master could possibly be an older form of use. But it doesn't seem to me that using Potions master is at all putting on airs.

I agree that Snape desperately seeks recognition and respect, but I don't see Potions master as an aspect of that. The DES, while they may not like or trust him, and certainly respect him. I think it's sad he didn't do a better job of earning respect on the other side. It's too bad that he's used intimidation at Hogwarts in his quest for respect.

> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> Yes, he said something like "excuse me, I believe *I* am the Potions master at
> this school" :-). He also called himself "master of this school" when he was
> trying to make the Marauder's map work in PoA ("Snape's Grudge").
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> AHA, yes he did, thanks for reminding me guys!  So that I think does not contradict my speculation, IF in reality it is just a name for the teacher's position, or another name and has nothing to do with skill, Snape is massaging his ego here, since he may have simply said  something along the lines - excuse me I am a potions teacher here.
>

Potioncat:
But if the two terms mean the same thing, how does using one mean he's massaging his ego? 

Besides, look at the context. Would you rather he'd kept his peace and allowed Lockhart to prepare the potion?

BTW, I'd like to thank Carol for her summary and thought provoking questions for "The Potions Master."




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 25 19:26:58 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:26:58 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8, THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hc1uli+uhnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc28q2+ta8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188272

> My questions:
> This chapter begins with Hogwart students following after Harry. They notice Ron too. One of the whispered comments was, "Next to the tall kid with the red hair."
> 
> What do you think Ron was thinking about Harry's celebrity and his own place in the scheme of things? Why don't Gryffindors treat Harry with the same sort of awe the other students do?
>
Carol responds:

Good questions and I don't pretend to have any definitive answers, but I'll take a stab at them. First, "next to the tall kid with the red hair" suggests that Harry (a skinny kid with messy hair and glasses) is less distinctive-looking than Ron from a distance; up close, his only distinctive feature is his scar. Otherwise, who ever whispered the comment would have described Ron rather than Harry.

As for Ron, who didn't know who Harry was when they sat together on the Hogwarts Express but felt comfortable with him after learning that Harry, too, had never had money or even a friend before, probably took Harry's celebrity in stride at first, especially after he learned that he knew more about the WW than Harry did and they could be beginners in all their classes together. I don't think that the jealousy set in until considerably later, maybe even fourth year. His own place was simply as Harry's best friend, a much more enjoyable position at this point than Bill/Charlie/Percy/the Twins' little brother or "another Weasley with red hair and second-hand robes." With Harry himself, as opposed to other people who may well view him as nothing more than the sidekick of the Boy Who Lived, he finally has a chance to be himself. It's good, though, that he knows more than Harry about the WW at this point and is at home in it (and, as we find out later, can slaughter Harry at chess) or the friendship might never have developed. I think that they see each other as equals and friends with complementary personalities. And, of course, Ron will empathize with Harry rather than Snape and the Slytherins in Potions class, in part because he likes Harry and in part because of Draco's dismissive behavior before the Sorting, guaranteed to make Ron his enemy from this first encounter.

As for the other Gryffindors, Snape's questions expose Harry as just another first-year when it comes to knowledge and magical ability. So, although they empathize with him, especially when Snape starts docking points from their House, they don't make a big deal about his unfairness nor are they in awe of "our new celebrity" because Harry, whatever his reputation as the infant victor over Voldemort, is no Dumbledore in the making (and, the Slytherins learn, no Voldemort in the making, either). At this point, before he's started getting into trouble and either losing or gaining huge amounts of points for his House, he's just another Gryffindor. Later, the Gryffs will care more about his prowess as a Seeker or School Champion than they do about his reputation as the Boy Who Lived--at least until fifth year, when even Seamus starts doubting his sanity and truthfulness, and HBP, when the MoM battle makes Voldemort's return undeniable.

Carol, probably overthinking the questions as usual




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Oct 25 22:15:00 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 22:15:00 -0000
Subject: Masters, mistresses and teachers. The UK heirarchy.
In-Reply-To: <hc03nh+d01e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc2il4+3udg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188273

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

Geoff: 
> > There is also the fact that one of the largest teaching 
> > unions in the UK is the NASUWT (National Association of 
> > Schoolmaster and Union of Women Teachers).
> > 
> > Potioncat will be pleased to know that there are at least
> > two Brits following the thread. Pleased to meet another Brit.
 
bboyminn:
> Here is a thought I had, and I wondered if it has any relevance
> to the wizard world or to common British schools.
> 
> We have a Head Master, so logically he is the lead of the
> general Masters. But, are the general masters then head of
> common teachers. In this sense are all teachers 'masters'
> and the Head Master is merely the head teacher. 
> 
> Or, is there a hierarchy, Head Masters, followed by Assistant
> Head Masters, followed by Masters, followed by teachers?  

Geoff:
I hope this is not drifting OT, but I think that some knowledge 
of the hierarchy of UK secondary education might help.

I believe that JKR is a little out-of-date in some ways in this 
matter as you will see as I explain.

When I was in secondary school in the 1950s, in the grammar 
school which I attended, we would refer to teachers as either 
'masters' or 'teachers'. The reason was that, at that time the UK 
schools were roughly one-third single-sex boys, one third 
single-sex girls and the remaining third mixed. Although we had 
been in mixed Junior schools up to 11 in state schools (more likely 
13 in public schools), at secondary single-sex boys' schools, the 
overwhelming majority of staff were male. in my grammar school, 
there was one female teacher who took an intake class and another 
who taught Art. Full stop.

Similarly in girls' schools, staff were mainly mistresses. The same 
tended to be true in the first few years I taught in an all-boys school; 
out of 22 staff, we had two ladies.

However, after the Wilson Labour Government committed to 
comprehensive education in 1965, a slow but steady shift to mixed
schools began with the result that there are very few single-sex 
schools in the UK today; even the great bastions of the public 
school tradition such as Harrow or Eton have female pupils.

This, plus the drive to PC language has meant that most people 
refer to 'teachers', 'masters' and 'mistresses' having fallen out of 
use in general terms. Headteacher is now the accepted term for 
the leader of the school in official terminology. However, it is not 
unusual for reference to be made to 'headmaster' or 'headmistress' 
where you are referring to the specific head of a specific school.

Looking at your note about heirarchy, most schools will have a 
Headteacher and a Deputy Headteacher. The remainder of the 
teachers will usually be collectively 'the staff'.

Occasionally, a staff member will be referred to by their position 
such as 'Head of xxxx' where 'xxxx' is a house or similar structure. 
Staff may hold Posts of Responsibility within a department but it is 
usually the HoD who gets referred to. I was Head of Computing for 
the last ten years of my teaching but if someone was referring to me
in a situation where my position was known, I might just be referred to 
as 'Mr.Bannister'.

What *is* perhaps unusual is the use of 'Professor' at this level of 
education. In a secondary school here, we would normally refer to 
'Mr.', 'Mrs.' or 'Miss'. I do recall at my grammar school a Chemistry 
teacher who was Dr. Cavell, presumably a cut above the others! 
Possibly a parallel with Snape?










From crbrett at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Oct 25 14:47:12 2009
From: crbrett at blueyonder.co.uk (crbrett at blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:47:12 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8 THE POTIONS MASTER
Message-ID: <49906.77.100.190.206.1256482032.QFNAHmkJSUB7.squirrel@77.100.190.206>

No: HPFGUIDX 188274

 Thank you for your warm welcome.

Alla asks if I could clarify "whether the title of Master has 
anything to do with the skill of the teacher or if it is just 
a title that means nothing beside the fact that such a person 
teaches in the school"

Whilst there was a hierarchy in the sense of the Headmaster and 
his Deputy there were also Heads of Department but I suspect it 
was just a term for a teacher as we not only had a Latin Mistress 
but also a Games Mistress etc and a Chemistry Master and a Games 
Master. Geoff is right in saying that the terms Schoolmaster and 
Schoolmistress were very common at one time being overtaken by 
teacher later.

Also I have to say I don't think Snape was massaging his ego 
he was stating a fact. He was the Potions Master of the school, 
although undoubtedly proud of being so.

Chris



From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Sun Oct 25 10:53:16 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 03:53:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re;  CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8  THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hc0j3h+hhq8@eGroups.com>
References: <hc0j3h+hhq8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <686146.4203.qm@web87015.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188275

> Steve:
> <HUGE SNIP>
> So, what I'm saying is that Snape has certainly
> demonstrated 'master' level potions skills.<SNIP>

> Alla:
> I guess I disagree, I do not believe that any sort of
> exam needed for master position, I think it is just a
> name, but maybe Brits on the list (including Geoff of
> course heh) will say otherwise?

> zanooda:
> Yes, he said something like "excuse me, I believe *I* am
> the Potions master at this school" :-). He also called
> himself "master of this school" when he was trying to make
> the Marauder's map work in PoA ("Snape's Grudge").

KEN
With all this confusion about the status of a schoolmaster,
I will risk being a little late with this one.

A schoolmaster is a teacher in a school, that's it, I think this
applies to both primary and secondary levels. Any references to
superior ability or the academic masters degree are purely
coincidental. As an aside I am uncertain where the Professor
status comes from it is never applied in a British school, in
the English educational system it used to refer to the head of
a University department. But now seems to apply to a superior
university researcher. So Professor Flitwick was charms master
because he was the charms teacher. Professor Snape is the potions
master because he teaches Potions.

Hope this helps, and Hi Geoff there are in fact three Brits
online.

KEN



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct 26 02:04:50 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 02:04:50 -0000
Subject: Houses (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 7, The Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <hbku0k+f805@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc3042+osfd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188276

 
> SSSusan:
> Interesting question.  I suppose I felt that McGonagall was doing her best to be diplomatic. ;) 

Potioncat:
Yes, that's what I thought--at least after a few books had come out and we heard more Sorting Hat songs. 


> SSSusan:
> Seriously, there *were* four founders, with four Houses remaining to the day, and I think we are meant to think that all four were outstanding in some particular way. 
 
Potioncat:

That's it. 

Every now and then we get into a thread defending Slytherin House in  some way, but poor Hufflepuff is comepletely disregarded. It was Hufflepuff who produced the Hogwarts Triwizard Champion--not Slytherin (keeper of the House Cup for 7 years) nor Gryffindor (of extraordinary courage).

I think each of the houses has accomplished great things; and while they value different qualities, none of the houses is honestly better than another. Of one house may be a better fit for a student than another house would.

Potioncat, always glad to see SSSusan back on the list.










From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Oct 26 04:33:14 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 04:33:14 -0000
Subject: graduation/Salazar/Funeral/Multiethnic/Neville/Hermione/Luna/Much More/
Message-ID: <hc38qa+k8li@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188277

Re: How Hermione modified her parents' memories  without using a Memory Charm. Surely she must have used Confundus.

Rick Kennerly wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187990>:

<< I think it's odd that we don't witness any graduation ceremonies at Hogwarts, again a symbolic passage from one state to another. >>

Used to be that UK listies were always hollering at US listies that there are no high school graduation ceremonies in the UK. No kind of school leaving ceremony except an extracurricular School Leavers Ball, described by someone who was going through it at time of writing as a crappy disco.

SeanM wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187997>:

<< Besides [Salazar] was one of the founders of the school and he had once been good friends with Godric Gryffindor so he must not have been all bad. >>

Once a listie predicted that, because Rowling said her favorite children's book was THE LITTLE WHITE HORSE (which I still have not read yet), the ending of the Harry Potter septology would reveal that Salazar hadn't really been a bad guy in the first place. I liked that idea but it didn't happen. 

Before we heard the hat singing that Godric and Salazar had once been the best of friends (and the hat is a poet, entitled to blur the facts a little for the sake of rhyme, meter, or making a point), I speculated that Godric considered Salazar a very evil bloke and invited/persuaded him to join in to found this new school is that Godric thought that Salazar would be less dangerous on the team, where Godric could keep an eye on him, than on his own doing who knows what. 

I even theorized that Godric's whole reason for founding the school was so that Salazar couldn't find and teach and use innocent Muggle-borns.

Rick Kennerly wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188000>:

<< However, when you read the funeral scene (White Tomb) the OOP are all sitting together and then later Ms. Figg is sitting with Tom from the LC, the singer from the Wierd Sisters, and Ernie from the Knight Bus. You kinda sit with them who brought you, particularly if you're dependent on them for getting back, so how did AFigg get to HW? >>

Oh, Arabella came on the Knight Bus with Tom and the singer. She boarded the Knight Bus at the Leaky Cauldron with Tom. There wereprobably other people who came on the Knight Bus (Stan, for one!) who dispersed to sit with their friends instead of with their carpool.

Megan Real summarized PS/SS Chaper 7 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188014>:

<< 8. Dean Thomas is specifically described as black in his description, but there is not a mention of race for the other students. Do you think there is racial/ethnic diversity at Hogwarts, or is Dean the only non-white student? >>

Dean Thomas was described as black in the American edition but not in the UK edition. Blaise Zabini was also introduced during the Sorting, but was not described as black until book 6. Fred and George's friend Lee Jordan was introduced at Platform 9 3/4 and described as having dreadlocks, and I assumed he was a white boy with dreadlocks until book 2 or 3 stated that he was black. Angelina Johnson is iintroduced later this book and book 4 or 5 mentions that she's black.

The narration doesn't specifically TELL us that Parvati and Padma Patil are of South Asian extraction, but those names combined with their beautiful long black hair worn in plaits down their backs strongly suggest it, just as Cho Chang's name suggests East Asian ethnicity. I think she's ethnic Chinese and she or her parents anglicized the name by putting the family name Chang last and the personal name Cho first. Some people have argued that her name could be Burmese or Korean. She is described as pretty, short, and black haired, but it is not mentioned that her eyes are slanted and her nose is flattish.

<< 10. What did you think of Neville's account of his family's concern that he wasn't magical? >>

Neville said his family thought he was "all Muggle", as Rowling had not yet introduced the word Squib to us, so I thought that Neville was half-Muggle like Seamus.

Joey wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188031>:

<< Hermione is a Muggle-born and has been taunted for that by the Malfoys multiple times. She is the one who has been encouraging house-elves to fight for their rights. So, I don't think she would treat her own parents or anybody for that matter in a patronizing / condescending fashion when it comes to their capabilities / rights. >>

I don't have a problem with how Hermione protected her parents. But I think that mentioning Hermione's interest in House Elf Rights is a bad argument: her first effort on behalf of House Elves was to try to trick them into freedom that they didn't want by hiding Elf Hats under piles of laundry. That was certainly patronising and condescending, as well as deceptive. I was going to say it violated House Elves' right to decide for themselves whether they wanted to be free, but I guess they actually had no such right. If they were born into slavery, their owners could free them very much against their 
choice, like poor Winky. If they were born into freedom, if there was any way they could choose to become slaves, it would require the participation of their new master.

Sartoris2 wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188055>:

<< Luna is one of Rowling's most interesting inventions and serves as a nice counterpoint to Hermione's pedantic certitude, but Luna is another outsider who never fully comes out from the cold. In the epilogue, didn't you want to find out what happened to her? For some odd reason, I hoped that she married Neville or Dean. Alas, we never discover if Luna is accepted in the wizard community. >>

Rowling said in <http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/0730-bloomsbury-chat.html>: "Luna became a very famous wizarding 
naturalist who discovered and classified many new species of animals (though, alas, she never did find a Crumple-Horned Snorkack and had, finally, to accept that her father might have made that one up). She ended up marrying (rather later than Harry & co) a fellow naturalist and grandson of the great Newt Scamander (Rolf)!"

*I* thought she should have married Dean, who seemed to appreciate her.

Herself said elsewhere: "Luna and Rolf's children (twins!) were named Lorcan and Lysander." Quick Quotes Quill <http://www.accio-uote.org/> has let me down by not telling me where that quote came from. 

What middle name for Lysander Scamander? Lysander Meander Scamander?

Bart wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188058>:

<< I personally had the theory that she became an Auror, capitalizing on the fact that absolutely nobody would take her seriously, so that she could go into a den of criminal wizards, declare openly that she was an Auror, and have everybody confessing their deeds to her, thinking it was a great joke. >>

That is a charming theory but I like mine better even tho' mine isn't funny. I think she should have learned wand-making and inherited Ollivander's business. Her weird insight would help her match the wand to the customer, and her innate goodness would come up in some unconscious way of making wands that influence their users to be good, or anyway less bad.

Augusta wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188061>:

<< Surely the definitive reference book on the school would have covered the Sorting Ceremony, wouldn't it? >>

The wizarding adults were all trying to keep the Sorting Ceremony secret so it would surprise the new first-years, and possibly to tease adults who had gone to some other wizarding school.

Geoff wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188161>:

<< Courses which are specifically geared to an area such as catering or business skills or motor mechanics, for example, will usual run as continuation courses from ordinary secondary schools and take place in Colleges of Further Education - either post-Year 11 or post-Sixth Form. They are sub-university and may either act as a precursor to taking a full degree or issue vocational qualifications in their own right. >>

Now remind me what is Year 11. Is it Fifth Form? GSCE year?

Potioncat wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188173>:

<< I have a question. McGonagall tells the first years, "Each house has its own noble history and each has produced outstanding witches and wizards." Did her speech convince you after what you had already read? Did you think one house was better? What do you think now? Do you think McGonagall was sincere? >>

I believed her statement then and now. I never doubted that she was somewhat sincere. On one hand, McGonagall, like Harry and the author and most readers, is certain that Gryffindor is the best House with the noblest history and has produced the greatest witches and wizards. (Best-known, anyway: Gryffindor heroes are great at publicity. I didn't realize this detail way back then.) On the other hand, McGonagall knows the history of great witches and wizards from the other Houses. Hermione might know it, too, from her extensive reading.

SSSusan replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188179>:

<< We might have to look back FARTHER or DEEPER to find the nobility of Slytherin, given how JKR has drawn the House in the 20th century >>

Or there is room in the wizarding world to argue about what is 'noble', such as young Tom Riddle's allegiance to old Salazar's alleged 'noble goal' of ethnic cleansing.

Rick Kennerly wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188189>:

<< But other than [Auror training], there doesn't seem to be any canonical evidence of upper level education in the WW. >>

One more example. In OoP when they visit Arthur in the hospital, the sign on the door of his ward / semiprivate room says "Healer in Charge: Hippocrates Smethwyck, Trainee Healer: Augustus Pye." IE: Healers are trained at St. Mungo's.

Carol summarized PS/SS Chapter 8 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188205>:

<< 3. Why do you think that Quirrell's turban and classroom smell like garlic? Did his blushing and confusion when Seamus asked him about fighting off the zombie arouse your suspicion? >>

I was perfectly gullible about poor stuttering Professor Quirrell being excessively afraid of vampires, and all I suspected from his confusion is that he was lying (like the later Lockhart) and had never actually fought a zombie or met an African prince.

Montavilla47 wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188207>:

<< (Hey... wait a second. How did Voldemort pry Dumbledore's wand from his cold, dead hands if the body had burned up?) >>

I'm under the impression that the magic flames constructed the white tomb instead of destroying the corpse.

Julie wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188265>:

<< It may be that Snape has some sort of degree or certificate identifying him as a "master" level potioneer (if that's an actual word!). >>

I don't think 'potioneer' is an actual word but it IS a wizarding word. Remember  when Slughorn first met Hermione, he asked her if she were "related to Hector Dagworth-Granger, who founded the Most Extraordinary Society of Potioneers?"

I agree that Snape may have a degree or certificate as a Master Potioneer as well as 'potions master' means 'potions teacher'.

I've always believed that there is a Guild of Potioners (MY idea what the word should be) and being an apprentice in that guild is roughly equivalent to being a grad student in Muggle university, and that Snape was an apprentice in the Potioners' Guild in those years when he was a working Death Eater. If it's normal to make Journeyman in two years, with his abilities, he could have done it in one. He could have become a Master in his Guild while teaching at Hogwarts. 

I always imagine that there is ongoing conflict inside the Potioners' Guild between the apothecaries and researchers, in which the apothecaries complain that they pay all the money to support the Guild while all the honorific titles go to the researchers, and the researchers complain that those mere shopkeepers don't deserve to called Masters just because they can make complicated potions correctly without looking at a book.

Anyway, that guild could be named Most Extraordinary Society of Potioneers just as easily as it could be named Worshipful Company of Potion Makers. 

There's a thing that I can't quite remember. Once I viewed a book of illustrations of the heraldic achievements of some of the Livery Companies of London, which used to be guilds. It said that IIRC twelve of the companies had gilded grills of the helmets sitting on top of their shields for the crest to stand on which technically they are not entitled to, not being peers of the realm, but these few livery companies had a special title that was by custom treated as if it gave them that right. And right now it is completely irritating to me that I can't remember that special title.







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 26 13:58:01 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:58:01 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8  THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hc20pk+6smv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc49t9+secm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188278

Potioncat:
What do you think Ron was thinking about Harry's celebrity and his own place in
the scheme of things? 

Alla:

I am sure Ron was curious about Harry as celebrity at first. I seem to remember in one rounds of discussing how Ron and Harry met versus how Draco and Harry first met somebody brought up about Ron being just as eager to meet Harry the Celebrity as Draco was eager, but to me the differences were obvious: Ron was not obnoxious to Harry even when he seemed to be in awe and  he seemed to got over thinking of Harry as celebrity and somebody special very fast. I thought Ron saw kid with whom he could discuss wizarding cards and share sandwiches, NOT somebody with whom they could look down upon wrong sorts of wizarding families.

As to what Ron was thinking about his own place in the scheme of things, I am not sure what you mean here, you mean when he just met Harry or in general? I mean, we saw plenty of Ron's insecurities over having a best friend who is a celebrity over the course of the series, but if you mean whether Ron was having him 


Why don't Gryffindors treat Harry with the same sort of
awe the other students do?

Alla:

I think this is one of the reasons Hat did not plan to put Harry in any other house but Gryffindor. Oh we can see that they are initially happy to have The Harry Potter among them, but as you said, I totally agree that a lot of students do not treat Harry as celebrity, but as a housemate and some of them as friend (if Harry lets them lol). I find this to be a very commendable quality and am glad that Harry was often allowed to be just Harry even if only among Gryffindors and of course the older he got the more his status weighed on his shoulders, whether his housemates treated him as such or no.

As to why they did so? I will go on a limb and speculate that a lot of them were decent kids and empathetic enough to think that maybe celebrity status is not always the most fun thing to have, or maybe they just did not care.

Alla:
>
> AHA, yes he did, thanks for reminding me guys! So that I think does not
contradict my speculation, IF in reality it is just a name for the teacher's
position, or another name and has nothing to do with skill, Snape is massaging
his ego here, since he may have simply said something along the lines - excuse
me I am a potions teacher here.
>

Potioncat:
But if the two terms mean the same thing, how does using one mean he's massaging
his ego?

Besides, look at the context. Would you rather he'd kept his peace and allowed
Lockhart to prepare the potion?

Alla:

Thanks for explaining about British schools, guys :) However to answer Potioncat, to me Master just sounds more respectable and I totally understand that it is interchangeable with teacher, but why didn't he say I am a Potions teacher then? 

No, I would not want him to keep his peace here lol, I am glad that he shut Lockhart up, but I am still fond of my speculation.







From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Oct 26 14:54:54 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:54:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Masters, mistresses and teachers. The UK heirarchy.
In-Reply-To: <hc2il4+3udg@eGroups.com>
References: <hc2il4+3udg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4AE5B83E.2080200@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188279

Geoff wrote:
> When I was in secondary school in the 1950s, in the grammar 
> school which I attended, we would refer to teachers as either 
> 'masters' or 'teachers'. The reason was that, at that time the UK 
> schools were roughly one-third single-sex boys, one third 
> single-sex girls and the remaining third mixed. 

Bart:
    I didn't realize that there were so many hermaphrodites in Britain. 
I wonder why there weren't more of them at Hogwarts.

    Bart




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Mon Oct 26 15:20:52 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:20:52 -0000
Subject: Masters, mistresses and teachers. The UK heirarchy.
In-Reply-To: <4AE5B83E.2080200@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hc4eok+29pa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188280

> Geoff wrote:
> > .... The reason was that, at that time the UK 
> > schools were roughly one-third single-sex boys, one third 
> > single-sex girls and the remaining third mixed. 

> Bart:
>     I didn't realize that there were so many hermaphrodites in Britain.  I wonder why there weren't more of them at Hogwarts.

Kemper now:
Hermaphrodite as become more slang, the preferred scientific term is intersex.  I imagine Hogwarts has had a couple pass through its gate... at least from the Muggle borns.
Kemper




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 26 15:50:12 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:50:12 -0000
Subject: graduation/Salazar/Funeral/Multiethnic/Neville/Hermione/Luna/Much More/
In-Reply-To: <hc38qa+k8li@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc4gfk+ptbh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188281

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:

> Rick Kennerly wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188189>:
 
> << But other than [Auror training], there doesn't seem to be any canonical evidence of upper level education in the WW. >>
 
> One more example. In OoP when they visit Arthur in the 
> hospital, the sign on the door of his ward / semiprivate 
> says "Healer in Charge: Hippocrates Smethwyck, Trainee 
> Healer: Augustus Pye." IE: Healers are trained at St. Mungo's.


zanooda:

I'm still not sure if "The Tales of Beedle the Bard" is considered canon, but if it is, there is a mention of a certain WADA (Wizarding Academy of Dramatic Arts) in there :-).




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Oct 26 20:46:09 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:46:09 -0000
Subject: Masters, mistresses and teachers. The UK heirarchy.
In-Reply-To: <4AE5B83E.2080200@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hc51qh+k5n1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188282

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> > When I was in secondary school in the 1950s, in the grammar 
> > school which I attended, we would refer to teachers as either 
> > 'masters' or 'teachers'. The reason was that, at that time the UK 
> > schools were roughly one-third single-sex boys, one third 
> > single-sex girls and the remaining third mixed. 

> Bart:
>     I didn't realize that there were so many hermaphrodites in Britain. 
> I wonder why there weren't more of them at Hogwarts.

Geoff:
Don't be thilly. You know what I mean.
:-)





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Oct 26 21:29:07 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:29:07 -0000
Subject: More UK education structure.
In-Reply-To: <hc38qa+k8li@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc54b3+10lta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188283

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" <catlady at ...> wrote:

Catlady: 
> Used to be that UK listies were always hollering at US listies that there are no high school graduation ceremonies in the UK. No kind of school leaving ceremony except an extracurricular School Leavers Ball, described by someone who was going through it at time of writing as a crappy disco.

Geoff:
No indeed. In the UK. Graduation refers specifically to a presentation 
ceremony at the end of a higher education course such as a college 
or a university. Some schools have in recent years started to have a 
closing evening occasion of some description.

Geoff  (earlier): 
> << Courses which are specifically geared to an area such as catering or business skills or motor mechanics, for example, will usual run as continuation courses from ordinary secondary schools and take place in Colleges of Further Education - either post-Year 11 or post-Sixth Form. They are sub-university and may either act as a precursor to taking a full degree or issue vocational qualifications in their own right. >>

Catlady: 
> Now remind me what is Year 11. Is it Fifth Form? GSCE year?

Geoff:
I have written about this in the past but could not immediately 
track the post in my archive so I had better start again.

If you go back 40 years or so, the naming system was fairly simple.
In the state schools, education up to the age of 11 was covered by 
Infant schools and Junior schools. these were sometimes combined 
on the same site and had class names straight through from Class 1 
to Class 6 (or possibly 'Year' instead of 'Class'). If the schools were 
separate, then they might have individual numbers.

All pupils transferred to Secondary education at 11+ and the classes 
from there up to the national exams were invariably First Year to Fifth 
Year. Beyond this you went into First Year Sixth/Second Year Sixth or 
Lower Sixth/Upper Sixth. These latter titles still survive. Public schools
used the same nomenclature despite their senior entry level being into 
Third Year.

I referred to the Labour Government's 1965 plan to introduce a plan
for comprehensive schools in a post a day or so ago. One of the c
consequences of this was that some Local Education Authorities (LEAs)
decided that the easiest way to implement this in terms of costs and 
buildings was to move to a Middle school system. which had First 
schools for 5-9 year olds, Middle schools for 9+-13 year olds and 
13+ in High schools/Community Colleges as the most widely adopted 
schemes. On the other hand some LEAs retained the old age breaks.

Obviously, the LEA covering Little Whinging had stayed with the old 
arrangement.

The area where I taught, close to Wimbledon, went to Middle schools and 
we then had the oddity of Middle school pupils coming to us from Fourth 
Year and entering our Third Year. The old Year numbers were retained
because you might get a student moving from a traditional school area
to a Middle school area and it helped continuity of courses, especially 
near national exams such as GCSE.

In the end the Ministry bit the bullet and round about 1990, classes were 
renamed Year 1 right up to Year 11 in a continuous list. JKR makes 
Hogwarts a little behind the times in retaining the old names certainly 
into the mid-1990s. I think I am right that this roughly corresponds to 
the US Grade numbering?

End of lecture.
:-)








From terrianking at aol.com  Mon Oct 26 20:11:44 2009
From: terrianking at aol.com (terrianking at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:11:44 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: graduation/Salazar/Funeral/Multiethnic/Neville/Hermio...
Message-ID: <d39.5aafe885.38175c80@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188284


In a message dated 10/25/2009 11:33:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
catlady at wicca.net writes:

Herself  said elsewhere: "Luna and Rolf's children (twins!) were named 
Lorcan and  Lysander." Quick Quotes Quill <_http://www.accio-http://ww_ 
(http://www.accio-uote.org/) > has  let me down by not telling me where that quote 
came from. 

What middle  name for Lysander Scamander? Lysander Meander Scamander?
 
 
Robert:
 
Brings back memories of a childhood favorite one shot character in a TV  
series, Warden Gordon Borden.
Perhaps Lysander one day becomes a Commander of something.
OT, I know.


ELFY NOTE:

Guys, please reply on OTC if you wish to talk only about these TV series or character without tying it back to canon. Thanks!
 
 
 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brian at rescueddoggies.com  Tue Oct 27 11:54:03 2009
From: brian at rescueddoggies.com (Brian)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:54:03 -0300
Subject: Graduations, grades etc.   Re:More UK education structure.
Message-ID: <4AE6DF5B.6010508@rescueddoggies.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188285

There's a very simply reason why there can't really be a graduation in 
British schools.

The exam results aren't received until mid July (sometimes even August 
though that's rare), so how can they have a graduation when nobody knows 
if they've passed anything yet?
This is why Hermione was anxiously waiting her OWL results even when 
Harry arrived at the burrow.

Also there is no all or nothing "pass"
Universities typically require a certain number of A-levels (think 
NEWTS) and each course will specifiy the number required and the grades 
required to gain admittance to THAT course in THAT university. 
By the way - grade is only for marks NOT for years in school, we don't 
have third grade, fifth grade, etc.  I'm amazed that US fanfic writers 
STILL refer to it even though in the HP books they call them first 
years, second years etc, up to seventh years.

On year 1 through 11 - I worked with school leavers right up to 2001 and 
I NEVER heard one of them refer to the "years" as year 1... 11 etc.,  
They used the old fifth year (GSCEs), upper and lower sixth (A-levels).

Whoever in the Ministry decided to impose the US system on us whould be 
taken out in a small boat and told to row to the USA!

The reason I get annoyed by US writers putting in a totally illogical 
graduation is that they are writing a story set in Britain.  Is it SO 
hard to expect an American writer to respect British culture when 
writing about Britain?
Now having had my grits for breakfast, I'm off to drive down the freeway 
to the train station where I'll get in a railroad car....  GRRR!!!

Brian






From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 27 21:02:34 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:02:34 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 8  THE POTIONS MASTER
In-Reply-To: <hc49t9+secm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc7n5a+8a1v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188286

> Why don't Gryffindors treat Harry with the same sort of
> awe the other students do?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I think this is one of the reasons Hat did not plan to put Harry in any other house but Gryffindor. Oh we can see that they are initially happy to have The Harry Potter among them, but as you said, I totally agree that a lot of students do not treat Harry as celebrity, but as a housemate and some of them as friend (if Harry lets them lol). I find this to be a very commendable quality and am glad that Harry was often allowed to be just Harry even if only among Gryffindors and of course the older he got the more his status weighed on his shoulders, whether his housemates treated him as such or no.
> 
> As to why they did so? I will go on a limb and speculate that a lot of them were decent kids and empathetic enough to think that maybe celebrity status is not always the most fun thing to have, or maybe they just did not care.


Montavilla47:

Of course, they didn't all do that.  Colin Creevey and Romilda Vane were 
both in Gryffindor and they seemed to be attracted to Harry's celebrity.
So was Ginny Weasley in the beginning.

But I'm sure that was bound to happen with someone or other.  

I don't think that Gryffindor was necessarily unique in the way it 
treated Harry.  If he had been placed in Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw, I'm 
sure that his housemates would have quickly settled down to treating
him as any other student.  They did that for the most part anyway.






From powerbabe7 at aol.com  Wed Oct 28 03:20:27 2009
From: powerbabe7 at aol.com (powerbabe7)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:20:27 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
Message-ID: <hc8d9r+alek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188287




This message is a Special Notice for all members of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
(minus that extra space)

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone
Chapter Nine, The Midnight Duel


The first years begin flying lessons with Madame Hooch. Harry is excited but not at the prospect of having to do this with the Slytherins. As they begin their lessons, Neville being the nervous one, pushed off the ground before Madame Hooch blew her whistle. He falls to the ground breaking a wrist. While he is being escorted to the hospital wing, Malfoy steals Neville's Remembrall and takes off on his broomstick with it. Harry decides to go after Malfoy on his broom, despite Hermione's protests. Malfoy throws the Remembrall away from Harry, but Harry, even though it is his first time on a broomstick, displays amazing prowess on it, and manages to fly after it and catch it in midair. Of course McGonagall sees this and races down to where the lesson is to get to Harry. Malfoy is pleased Harry is going to get in trouble but his happiness is short lived. McGonagall is very much pleased with Harry's abilities on the broomstick, and instead of punishing him, introduces him to Oliver Wood, Quidditch captain for Gryffindor. Harry is asked to be on the team, even though he is only a first year.

Back in the Great Hall, Harry confronts Malfoy saying he can not do or say anything on his own, that he always has to have Crabbe and Goyle with him. Malfoy says that is not true and can take him by himself and challenges him to a duel at midnight. Hermione tries to prevent Harry from leaving to duel Malfoy, but Harry and Ron go anyway. They make it to the trophy room, where they are suppose to meet Malfoy and Crabbe. While waiting, they hear Filch talking to Mrs. Norris. They find out Filch is actually looking for them! Malfoy had tricked them. They run into Hermione and together they try to make it back to the common room. Peeves unfortunately spies them and starts creating a ruckus. Hermione uses Alohomora and gets them into an empty room. The four of them soon discover they are actually in the forbidden corridor. They run into a three headed dog and realize that this must be why it is forbidden. They take off running and make it back the common room with out being caught. Harry realizes that he may have discovered where the package from vault 713 was.


Questions:

1. Why do you think the Gryffindors are forced to do flying lessons with the Slytherins? and why is this the only time flying lessons are even mentioned?

2. Would you like to have a Remembrall ? Why or why not? What would you like to make sure you remember?

3. Do you think Neville is naturally clumsy and somewhat scatterbrained? or do you think his grandmother had a role in that?

4. Malfoy chooses Crabbe as his second. If Crabbe and Goyle are both his friends, why do you think he picks Crabbe over Goyle?

5. Duels are written into many books and stories. More often than not, they are between a good and a bad person and they do not end on a happy note. What were your thoughts as soon as the duel was scheduled to happen? Did you think Ron, Harry, Malfoy, or even Crabbe might have died or gotten hurt?

6.  Insert own questions here.









NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 10, The Halloween, on November 3,
2009.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion, please
contact drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).






From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 28 15:50:18 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:50:18 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
In-Reply-To: <hc8d9r+alek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc9p7q+u7rn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188288

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone Chapter Nine, The Midnight Duel

Questions:

1. Why do you think the Gryffindors are forced to do flying lessons with the Slytherins? and why is this the only time flying lessons are even mentioned?

Janelle: 
The obvious answer is that plot-wise Harry needed something extreme enough to make him break the rules and fly his broom, and Draco is the obvious answer to that.  As far as within the story, I don't know why the Gryffindors are paired with the Slytherins for this class, although I think being "forced" to be paired with them is a little too strong worded.  Maybe they put them together for this class, something that is probably generally considered to be fun, in hopes that the first years in these two houses could form some friendships early on and reduce the enmity between the houses.  If it hadn't been Malfoy maybe it could have worked. 


2. Would you like to have a Remembrall ? Why or why not? What would you like to make sure you remember?

Janelle:
I don't think I would like to have a Remembrall.  Yeah, it turns all red to let you know when you forgot something, which is cool, but it doesn't tell you what you forgot!  It would constantly be like when you get up and go into another room to get something, but by the time you get there you forget what you were going to get and then have to stand there trying to remember!  Talk about frustrating!

 
3. Do you think Neville is naturally clumsy and somewhat scatterbrained? or do you think his grandmother had a role in that?

Janelle:
I think his gran probably does have something to do with it.  She was probably pretty demanding, always expecting a lot of things from him and so he bumbles around trying to do everything that she wants him to do and trying not to mess anything up.  I'm sure a part of it is naturally his character, but Gran most likely brings it out in him.

 
4. Malfoy chooses Crabbe as his second. If Crabbe and Goyle are both his friends, why do you think he picks Crabbe over Goyle?

Janelle:
Something I've wondered about myself... It's interesting to add in the fact that he never intended to duel in the first place...  Goyle is the one who is taller, right?  So maybe Malfoy thought that by picking the friend who would be slightly less intimidating to Harry as his second, it would show Malfoy's confidence that he didn't need a second and could take Harry all by himself?  I kinda doubt it though.  It's more likely that Malfoy was mad at Goyle about something and so chose Crabbe in order to make Goyle jealous or something petty like that.


5. Duels are written into many books and stories. More often than not, they are between a good and a bad person and they do not end on a happy note. What were your thoughts as soon as the duel was scheduled to happen? Did you think Ron, Harry, Malfoy, or even Crabbe might have died or gotten hurt?

Janelle:
Hmm, let's see if I can remember...  I know that I didn't suspect Malfoy of setting them up, that I really thought there would be a duel.  I guess I thought it would be interesting to see what Malfoy could do and that maybe some spell would go awry, hit the wrong person or something, but I don't think I really knew what to expect but was eager to find out!

 
My own Questions:
6.  When arranging the duel Draco mentions that the door to the trophy room is "always unlocked."  How does Draco know this?  And, perhaps more importantly, why is the trophy room always unlocked?  

7.  Why was the door to the forbidden corridor set up so that a simple "alohomora" could open it?  Did Dumbledore simply trust that the students would follow his orders?


Thanks for the summary and questions!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 28 15:58:41 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:58:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
In-Reply-To: <hc8d9r+alek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hc9pnh+l8m2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188289


<snip summary>
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Why do you think the Gryffindors are forced to do flying lessons with the Slytherins? and why is this the only time flying lessons are even mentioned?

Carol responds:

I don't think they're *forced* to have flying lessons with the Slytherins. That's just how the classes happen to be arranged (and, of course, JKR's plot requires it--she doesn't need Harry to interact with any Ravenclaws until fourth year, so she doesn't include any classes with them. We do need to meet some Hufflepuffs in second year, so she puts the Gryffindors and Hufflepuffs together in Herbology). As for why the flying lessons aren't mentioned again, there's no need. Harry can already fly (a natural gift inherited from his father, apparently), so he has nothing to learn, and they've served their purpose by getting him onto the Quidditch team (about which, IMO, the less said, the better).
> 
> 2. Would you like to have a Remembrall ? Why or why not? What would you like to make sure you remember?

Carol responds:
I think that a Remembrall is pointless since it can't tell you what you're forgetting, and, if you're forgetful like Neville, you'll just forget where you've put the darn thing. What would I like to remember, besides where I put things I need (my sunglasses, at the moment, though I won't need them today)? Something that a Remembrall couldn't help me with--remembering words and names ("noun loss," as someone called it, though occasionally the forgotten word is a verb or adjective). It's annoying to younger people that I talk with who don't understand that the neurons don't fire as rapidly as they used to when you reach a certain age.
> 
> 3. Do you think Neville is naturally clumsy and somewhat scatterbrained? or do you think his grandmother had a role in that?

Carol responds:
It's hard to say. I think it might be a combination of being naturally somewhat timid (though with a seed of courage that sprouts when its needed). He's a slightly fat little boy who lacks confidence and his family's suspicion that he might be a Squib can't have helped matters, nor can Gran's constant reminders of what a great Wizard his father was. Having his father's wand, which clearly isn't suited to him and didn't "choose" him can't help, either. He makes his fear of Snape (and perhaps of Potions as a subject) altogether obvious before Snape has even noticed him by somehow melting Seamus's cauldron, and he seems almost equally inept and fearful in McGonagall's class. A modern educator would say that he lacks self-esteem; McGonagall is probably closer to the mark in saying that he lacks confidence (though her remarks in fourth year about his Switching Spells don't help). I think that his inadequacies (the wand aside) are primarily a combination of self-perception and perceptions of others, which he's internalized, but also he seems to be a late bloomer who requires some sort of crisis to bring out his courage and confidence, at which point he just does what he has to do. (I suspect that the Neville we see in DH has finally gained the confidence he needs, but that his natural modesty will prevent him from glorying in his celebrity as the killer of Nagini. I hope that he returns the Sword of Gryffindor to the headmaster's office rather than keeping it.)
> 
> 4. Malfoy chooses Crabbe as his second. If Crabbe and Goyle are both his friends, why do you think he picks Crabbe over Goyle?

Carol responds:

He has to choose one over the other to make it look as if he intends to fight the duel, and possibly Crabbe is a shade bigger and stronger (I think that's Harry's perception) or a shade meaner or smarter. Certainly, we find that it's Crabbe, not Goyle, who argues with Draco in HBP (apparently wanting to know what he's up to in the RoR if he's going to continuing masquerading as a girl) and Crabbe who goes over completely to Voldemort's side, whereas Goyle continues to mindlessly do whatever Draco tells him (and casts no Dark spells in the RoR). Maybe it's a distinction without a difference and Draco just flipped a mental coin because the choice didn't matter, but I think that JKR is hinting that they're not as (mentally) identical as they seem.
> 
> 5. Duels are written into many books and stories. More often than not, they are between a good and a bad person and they do not end on a happy note. What were your thoughts as soon as the duel was scheduled to happen? Did you think Ron, Harry, Malfoy, or even Crabbe might have died or gotten hurt?

Carol responds:
It never occurred to me that they could get hurt considering how little magic any of them knew at the time. (Harry, of course, had to survive as the hero of the series, but I didn't think about that, either.) I thought it would just be sparks flying and everyone getting in trouble because they were spotted by Filch. I was as naive as Harry in not expecting a set up.

On a sidenote, I think that this introduction to duels, followed by the short-lived Dueling Club in CoS, foreshadows the duels and fights in the later books. What I don't understand is why they would wield their wands like swords when all they need to do is fire spells at each other and parry the other person's spells. Apparently, there's a lot of weaving and dodging. With the exception of the long-distance duel (twenty feet?) in which Snape trounces Harry in HBP, the actual fights are nothing like the ritualized duels that we see briefly in CoS and to which Draco seems to be referring. Those seem to be based on Muggle duels like the one in which Aaron Burr killed Alexander Hamilton, or on fencing matches.

Carol, noting that Movie!Snape's (and Draco's) dueling posture in CoS is absurdly backwards, an error that Book!Snape would never make




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Oct 28 21:25:11 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:25:11 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
In-Reply-To: <hc8d9r+alek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcacrn+n45p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188290

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "powerbabe7" <powerbabe7 at ...> wrote:

> 1. Why do you think the Gryffindors are forced to do flying lessons with the Slytherins? and why is this the only time flying lessons are even mentioned?

Geoff:
I think its a timetable thing. The two houses do have potions together 
and one assumes that Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw possibly do so also.

There's not much to say about flying lessons except that they have them.
As someone has said, it may just to point up the fact that Harry is a 
natural flyer.

> 4. Malfoy chooses Crabbe as his second. If Crabbe and Goyle are both his friends, why do you think he picks Crabbe over Goyle?

Geoff:
Well, he's got to choose one or the other. How did you choose 
between friends when you were at school?

> 5. Duels are written into many books and stories. More often than not, they are
between a good and a bad person and they do not end on a happy note. What were
your thoughts as soon as the duel was scheduled to happen? Did you think Ron,
Harry, Malfoy, or even Crabbe might have died or gotten hurt?

Geoff:
Frankly no. I didn't think their spell skill was sufficient to kill and I 
don't think that their motivation stretched that far in the First Year. 
I think it's a bit of boy wizard muscle-flexing. I don't even think that 
anyone would have got hurt - canon suggests otherwise.

'Catching the look on Harry's face, he (Ron) added quickly, "but people 
only die in proper duels, you know, with real wizards. The most you 
and Malfoy'll be able to do is to send sparks at each other. Neither of 
you knows enough magic to do any real damage."'
(PS "The Midnight Duel" p.114 UK edition)











From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Oct 29 02:33:33 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 02:33:33 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
In-Reply-To: <hc8d9r+alek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcautt+pb2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188291


>Midnight Duel Questions:
> 
1. Why do you think the Gryffindors are forced to do flying lessons with the Slytherins? and why is this the only time flying lessons are even mentioned?

Potioncat:
I think JKR used this chapter to set up a number of plot details. The pacing is beautiful. At the end of  "The Sorting Hat" Harry has a dream about Draco and Snape. That chapter is followed by "The Potions Master" about Snape and then "The Midnight Duel" about Draco. I think this is a ChocAbloc full little chapter with lots of details.

We see how excited Harry is about flying and how wonderful he feels to find something he can do without being taught. Yet we know (now) that he had flown on a little broom when he was less than 2 years old.

Draco gets a wish turned backwards---he complained about the rule against 1st years being able to play Quidditch, and look what happens, a first year gets to play. And I still think it's funny that the stern, no-nonsense teacher is so caught up in Quidditch fever.

But the question was about why the Gryffindors and Slytherins have this class together. There had to be conflict in the story, so Draco and Harry had to be in contact. JKR found reason to put them into certain situations together. Within the story, we can imagine that some classes are combined and houses are put together for whatever reason the administration chooses.


> 
2. Would you like to have a Remembrall ? Why or why not? What would you like to make sure you remember?

Potioncat:
The last thing I want is to be reminded that I've forgotten something. In fact the phrase, "Don't you remember
." is banned from my house.


> 
3. Do you think Neville is naturally clumsy and somewhat scatterbrained? or do you think his grandmother had a role in that?

Potioncat:
I think it's the residual effect of witnessing his parents being tortured into insanity.
(Well, it was a very strong theory once upon a time.)

Let's not be too hard on Gran. She raised Frank, you know, and he turned out OK. Come to think of it, she raised another hero in Neville.


> 
4. Malfoy chooses Crabbe as his second. If Crabbe and Goyle are both his friends, why do you think he picks Crabbe over Goyle?

Potioncat:
A man received 2 shirts for this birthday from his mother. So the next time he visits her, he wears one of the shirts. The moment he walks into her house, she looks at him and says, "So, you didn't like the other one?"

At first I thought you were on to something with this question; I wondered if the choice foreshadowed events between this trio. But you know, to me it's Crabbe-and-Goyle and I can never remember which is which. So, no, I think he just picked.



5. Duels are written into many books and stories. More often than not, they are between a good and a bad person and they do not end on a happy note. What were your thoughts as soon as the duel was scheduled to happen? Did you think Ron, Harry, Malfoy, or even Crabbe might have died or gotten hurt?

Potioncat:
I didn't expect anything fatal. I wasn't sure that Draco might not know a spell or two. But I wasn't expecting it to be a trick.

We have Draco tricking Harry into sneaking out after hours, then Harry ends up facing a monster in an out-of-bounds area of the castle. Can't quite put my finger on it, but this reminds me of something. Drat! Where is that rememberall?


Thanks, Powerbabe, for a good set of questions.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 29 03:20:02 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 03:20:02 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
In-Reply-To: <hc8d9r+alek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcb1l2+f55u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188292

Powerbabe:
5. Duels are written into many books and stories. More often than not, they are
between a good and a bad person and they do not end on a happy note. What were
your thoughts as soon as the duel was scheduled to happen? Did you think Ron,
Harry, Malfoy, or even Crabbe might have died or gotten hurt?


Alla:

You know, you got me thinking about the possible symbolism of the duels in literature in general and in HP. Personally I am of two minds about them. I do disagree that duels are more often than not between a good and a bad person, actually. I mean, obviously there are stories where that does happen, but even in Three Musketeers all those duels between D'Artanian and Roshfor end up with deciding that being friends is better than them eventually killing each other (sniff), so I would say that duel is often quite an annoying deadly way to fight over possible violation of honor and two guys fighting both could be quite honorable people. Even such amazing friends as Steven Maturin and Jack Aubrey almost had that duel.

I know I am starting to ramble, but to get back to this particular duel, while I do not remember for sure my first reaction I think, actually this was a chance for Draco to show me that he is actually not a disgusting little shmack which I started to think he is.

I guess I was just glad that he suggested the duel? Maybe I am projecting now, as I said I cannot be sure, but I suppose to me one of the symbolism of the duel is that no matter what the reasons are, no matter how ridiculous they are, if you are agreeing, you are fighting out something which is important to you, that there is something honorable in you?

Oh, I don't know, but I think it is quite possible that Draco not showing up was something that cemented my dislike of him if that makes sense. I may have been thinking something like - oh look, not only he is a racist, but he is also a dishonorable coward. EWW. On the other hand, again, I do not know if this WAS my first reaction or is this my look backwards from seven other books.

However, to continue rambling, as some of you know I studied a russian literature of 19 century in rather great detail and duels there are often twisted in something rather different - a useless waste of life, killing each other for nothing, for something which is **perceived** to be a question of honor in society's eyes, however one can see that it us really insignificant and not worth it.

The best example of course is Eugene Onegin, where two friends ending up fighting a deadly duel over one of them flirting with rather shallow girl, whom the other guy thought he loved and it made quite clear that basically accidental death really is not worth the idea of not shrugging it off, just something that society deems appropriate. There is also a fact that two of the brilliant poets and writers of 19th century were indeed killed during such duels and I have rather wishy washy attitude about them.

To go back to HP, maybe JKR did not mean to make a point that Draco is dishonorable by not showing up, maybe she meant to say that the rivalry between schoolboys is not worth doing stuff like that, which is while not deadly when they are young and unskilled, could turn out to be quite deadly?

I don't know. Thanks for cool questions.

Alla








From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 29 05:24:26 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:24:26 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
In-Reply-To: <hc9p7q+u7rn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcb8ua+nka7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188293

jelly92784 wrote:

> 7.  Why was the door to the forbidden corridor set up so that a simple "alohomora" could open it?  Did Dumbledore simply trust that the students would follow his orders?

Joey:

Hmm...

You mean with reference to the security of the PS/SS? Looks like DD trusted Fluffy and also, not many would know that music will tame the monster.

If you meant the security of the person who opened the door to the forbidden corridor then looks like DD didn't care about that much given that his warning to students was strong enough.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Oct 29 12:13:08 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:13:08 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
In-Reply-To: <hcb1l2+f55u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcc0sk+qm8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188294


>Alla: 
> Oh, I don't know, but I think it is quite possible that Draco not showing up was something that cemented my dislike of him if that makes sense. I may have been thinking something like - oh look, not only he is a racist, but he is also a dishonorable coward. EWW. On the other hand, again, I do not know if this WAS my first reaction or is this my look backwards from seven other books.

Potioncat:
I agree with Hermione, Draco never intended to show up, it was a trick from the beginning. So he isn't cowardly, he's clever, or maybe dastardly is a better word.






From a1.mills at portset.net  Thu Oct 29 19:30:02 2009
From: a1.mills at portset.net (Andrew)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:30:02 +0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
Message-ID: <200910291640.n9TGedbc029338@post.portset.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 188295

Hello, just wondering what people think about this.  Why did the Dursleys seem totally ignorant of the fact that Harry was not allowed to perform magic outside school until he got his warning letter from the Ministry when Dobby performed magic in the Dursley's kitchen.  At one point Petunia described Lily as "coming home every holiday with her pockets full of frogspawn and turning teacups into rats."  If Lily turned teacups into rats during the holidays surely that would constitute under age magic.  As Lily apparently was not expelled from school I'd imagine that she never, in fact, did such a thing and that Petunia was purely making it up, a case of over exaggeration.   However, as Lily and Petunia would have been living at home during the holidays, I'd have thought Petunia would have been aware of the fact that Lily would not be allowed to do magic out of school.  How come, then, she did not know Harry would also not be able/allowed to do magic during the holidays?  Was it!
  Just because she was so afraid of magic that she never actually took any interest in her sister and how she behaved during the holidays?  Would Lily ever have mentioned the fact she wasn't allowed to do magic?  Was it just the fact that she never did magic out of school and so never received any warnings, meaning Petunia just never knew about it?  Or was she, in fact, being even more devious than most people may think, hoping Harry would do under age magic and then get expelled from Hogwarts (another attempt at trying to stamp the magic out of him).  Personally I'm more inclined to think it was total ignorance of the truth, not taking interest in what Lily said/did during the holidays and so being totally unaware of the fact, but just wonder what others think.

AJM



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 29 21:50:21 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:50:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
In-Reply-To: <hc8d9r+alek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcd2mt+beis@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188296



--- "powerbabe7" <powerbabe7 at ...> wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone
> Chapter Nine, The Midnight Duel
> 
> ...
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Why do you think the Gryffindors are forced to do flying lessons with the Slytherins? and why is this the only time flying lessons are even mentioned?
> 

bboyminn:

Again, I'm with others on this, they are not 'forced' to have
classes together. It is just, within the world, a natural 
offshoot of having a certain number of students and a limited
number of teachers. Slytherin and Gryffindor have several 
other classes together. And we can logically assume that other
Houses also have mixed classes.

Of course, outside the world, as observers, we know JKR needed
to have Slytherin and Gryffindor together to perpetuate the
animosity between Harry and Draco. 

I think flying lesson are only ever mentioned this once because
we see most of the story from Harry perspective. After this 
lesson, he discovers he is a natural flier, and he is now on
the Quidditch team, so he never again needs to give thought
to flying lessons.

Also, I suspect flying lessons are not regular classes, they
exist only for first years, and only as an introduction to
broom flying. The goal is not to turn out proficient flyers,
it is to make sure everyone has the most basic level of
skill at flying. 

As a result, I don't really think Madam Hooche, who is a
Madam not a professor, is a full time teacher. I think she
comes in at the beginning of the year to introduce students
to broom flying, and to scope out the new Quidditch talent. 

After that, she merely come to Hogwarts to officiate the 
Quidditch games, and of course, there was the time when she
was called on to guard Harry during Quidditch practice.

So, I don't think Broom Flying is a regular on-going class,
it is a short schedule of classes at the beginning of the
year to introduce first years to flying. 

Keep in mind, that there may have been a few more flying
lessons after that first one that we are not told about because
Harry is now on the Quidditch team and doesn't need to think 
about them.  


> 2. Would you like to have a Remembrall ? Why or why not? What would you like to make sure you remember?
> 

bboyminn:

Well, as others, including Neville himself, have pointed out,
what it is knowing you've forgetten if you can't remember what
it is you've forgot. 


> 3. Do you think Neville is naturally clumsy and somewhat scatterbrained? or do you think his grandmother had a role in that?
>

bboyminn:

I think Neville is showing both the effects of stress and a
lack of confidence. And, yes, certainly his grandmother is 
doing nothing to ease either one. 

When people are pychologically stressed then tend to tighten 
up, both physically and mentally. That leads to all kinds of
physical clumsiness and awkwardness, but also to a range of
mental problems like an inability to do deep analytical 
thinking and a noticeable degree of forgetfulness. Neither
the other students, Snape, or Neville's grandmother to anything
to understand and improve his core problem. In fact they all
seem to be determined to do everything in their power to make
Neville worse. Only Harry, Ron, and Hermione seem to make any
really effort to help Neville, and I think it is very much 
their help and influence that gradually turn Neville around.

Remember Harry saying to Neville that he is worth 12 Malfoys,
and shortly after Neville standing up to Grabbe and Goyle? 

 
> 4. Malfoy chooses Crabbe as his second. If Crabbe and Goyle are both his friends, why do you think he picks Crabbe over Goyle?
> 

I'm inclined to think this is just random choice. I really 
doesn't matter whom he chooses since he doesn't intend to 
turn up anyway. 


> 5. Duels are written into many books and stories. More often than not, they are between a good and a bad person and they do not end on a happy note. What were your thoughts as soon as the duel was scheduled to happen? Did you think Ron, Harry, Malfoy, or even Crabbe might have died or gotten hurt?
> 

bboyminn:

I'm somewhat with Ron on this, I certainly didn't predict any
thing serious happening. At best it would have been roughly as
bad as the typical school boy fight between typical 11 year
olds. 

I also agree with Ron that neither of them knew enough magic
to do any real harm. Though I think part of Draco's motivation
might have been in knowing Harry didn't know /anything/ about
magic, and that would give Draco a distinct advantage and a
chance to show Harry up. I wonder if the idea of setting a 
Filch trap for Harry didn't come up later. 

If they had gone to the duel, they would have certainly gotten
into trouble. It seem almost impossible that they could or
would not get into trouble. However, if they just sent Harry
on a wild goose chase, then Draco comes off the hero for
reporting them, and only Harry is in trouble. Sweet revenge
for turning that broom flying/Rememberal incident against 
Draco. 


Additional Question and Answers -

>6. When arranging the duel Draco mentions that the door to 
the trophy room is "always unlocked." How does Draco know this?
And, perhaps more importantly, why is the trophy room always 
unlocked?
>

bboyminn:

There is A LOT that happens off page in these books. We see 
from Harry's perspective, so we have a limited view. Maybe
another Slytherin told Draco. Maybe Draco and his buddies
were discussing getting back at Harry, maybe even challenging
him to a Duel, and another student over heard and mentioned
the Trophy Room.

Or maybe Draco simply overheard other students or his father
and his father's friends talking about it. It really doesn't 
seem like that much of a mystery to me. 

If we assume Draco challenged Harry with the intension of 
setting a trap for him, then it doesn't even matter if it is
true, only whether Harry believes it is true. 

However, my personal opinion is that Draco challenged Harry
with the intension of humiliating him, but only later decided
it was safer for himself, is he simply told Filch and let
Harry get into trouble on his own.  

Next, it is not just the Trophy Room that is unlocked, during
the course of the stories, they are ducking into unused class
rooms all the time. I suspect the only rooms that are locked
are rooms that are for some reason restricted. 


> 7. Why was the door to the forbidden corridor set up so that
a simple "alohomora" could open it? Did Dumbledore simply trust
that the students would follow his orders?
>

bboyminn:

I think in general, during the day, the teachers were keeping
an eye on the room to make sure students were staying away. I
suspect all the upper years knew very clearly what room or area
Dumbledore said was off limits. But, Harry and the gang didn't 
specifically go seeking that room, they found it by accident 
when running from Filch. 

I suspect Dumbledore assumed that after his warning, and with
the teacher watching, and students finding the door locked, 
that would be enough to keep people away. Especially after 
the strength of his warning - painful death, I believe he
said. I think he believed none of the upper year students
would use that charm to open such a dangerous door, and I 
think he assume none of the lower years would be sufficiently
familiar with or proficient in the Alohomora charm to use
it. 

Again, remember that Harry and the gang are not there 
intensionally and are not willfully opening a forbidden door.
They are there by accident, and if they had known where they
were, they would not have opened the door. So, in that sense,
it would have worked. 

Steve/bboyminn




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Oct 29 23:12:59 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:12:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 9, THE MIDNIGHT DUEL
In-Reply-To: <hc9p7q+u7rn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcd7hr+86eb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188297

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jelly92784" <jelly92784 at ...> wrote:

>My own Questions:
 
> 7.  Why was the door to the forbidden corridor set up so that a simple "alohomora" could open it?  Did Dumbledore simply trust that the students would follow his orders?

Geoff:
I might assume the the Second Year upwards are familiar with 
Dumbledore's instructions and how they are enforced.

However, the question comes to mind as to how "simple" an 
Alohomora spell is to an inquisitive First Year.

An interesting piece of canon is the following:
'Ducking under Peeves they ran for their lives, right to the end 
of the corridor, where they slammed into a door - and it was locked.

"This is it!" Ron moaned, as they pushed helplessly at the door. "We're
done for! This is the end!"

They could hear footsteps, Filch running as fast as he could towards 
Peeves' shouts.

"Oh. move over," Hermione snarled. She grabbed Harry's wand tapped 
the lock and whispered. "Alohomora!"'
(PS "The Midnight Duel" p.118/19 UK edition)

Reading between the lines, this seems to suggest to me that Hermione 
has been reading her books as avidly as usual and hence she's one jump 
ahead; thisspell hasn't yet been met by the average student.











From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 29 23:39:08 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:39:08 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <200910291640.n9TGedbc029338@post.portset.net>
Message-ID: <hcd92s+h112@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188298

AJM:
Why did the Dursleys seem totally ignorant of the fact that Harry was not allowed to perform magic outside school until he got his warning letter from the Ministry when Dobby performed magic in the Dursley's kitchen?

Janelle:
It is possible that the restriction on underage magic wasn't always in place.  Maybe it used to be allowed, but then too many accidents and problems resulted from underage wizards and the Ministry decided to enact the ban.




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 30 06:36:26 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 06:36:26 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hcd92s+h112@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hce1ha+3pg4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188299



--- "jelly92784" <jelly92784 at ...> wrote:
>
> AJM:
> Why did the Dursleys seem totally ignorant of the fact that Harry was not allowed to perform magic outside school until he got his warning letter from the Ministry when Dobby performed magic in the Dursley's kitchen?
> 
> Janelle:
> It is possible that the restriction on underage magic wasn't always in place.  Maybe it used to be allowed, but then too many accidents and problems resulted from underage wizards and the Ministry decided to enact the ban.
>

bboyminn:

Remember that Hermione also said she performed magic, but 
neither her place nor Petunia/Lily's place is monitored as 
closely as Harry/Dursley's is.

Also, a vast majority of students have not real contact or
connection with the Ministry. Harry is very much on their
radar screen from the minute he enters the wizard world, and
given the amount of trouble he manages to get into, perhaps
rightly so. 

Now, it is possible Lily performed underage magic and got
a letter from the Ministy warning her about it. Or, perhaps
the owl came to her parents. But that letter arriving doesn't
mean that Petunia knew about it. 

It is clear that Petunia has had a immense change of attitude,
from wanting to go to Hogwarts, to thinking the place and
everyone in it was a freak show. So, perhaps Lily's parents
kept Petunia out of the loop to keep from upsetting her. 

We really don't know if anything happened, and if something
did happen, we don't know what the results were. It is all
speculation on our part. 

It is possible that Lily did do magic, and may have even
gotten a warning or two about it. But Harry is monitored
a lot more closely than the rest of the young wizard world.
For the most part, in magical households, where magic is
happening all the time, the Ministry leaves it up to the 
parents to monitor (according to JKR). 

So, for the Ministry to take action for magic performed in 
most cases, that magic would have to be pretty significant.
It would have to be enough to cause some type of incident
that would get the attention of the Ministry. 

So, if we assume Lily did perform magic, then there is some
likelihood that she got a warning for it, but only a 
likelihood, not a certainty.

Steve/bboyminn 





From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 30 14:02:26 2009
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:02:26 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hce1ha+3pg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcerli+e521@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188300

bboyminn:

So, for the Ministry to take action for magic performed in
most cases, that magic would have to be pretty significant.
It would have to be enough to cause some type of incident
that would get the attention of the Ministry.

Janelle:
Going along with that, remember that Mr. Dursley had people over to dinner- Muggles who had no idea about the wizarding world- when Dobby dropped that dessert.  Perhaps if Harry had accidentally done some magic with only the Dursleys around he wouldn't have gotten a warning.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 00:29:40 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 00:29:40 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hcerli+e521@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcg0dk+74ul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188301

bboyminn:
> 
> So, for the Ministry to take action for magic performed in
> most cases, that magic would have to be pretty significant.
> It would have to be enough to cause some type of incident
> that would get the attention of the Ministry.
> 
> Janelle:
> Going along with that, remember that Mr. Dursley had people over to dinner- Muggles who had no idea about the wizarding world- when Dobby dropped that dessert.  Perhaps if Harry had accidentally done some magic with only the Dursleys around he wouldn't have gotten a warning.
>
Carol responds:

Good point. There are two kinds of Muggles, those who know about magic and those who don't. Also, magic performed *on* a Muggle would (normally) be punished more severely than magic performed *in front of* a Muggle (obviously, the MoM alters this view on at least two occasions, Aunt Marge, when they're lenient with Harry, and the Patronus performed to save Dudley (and Harry himself), when they're unduly harsh.) The Weasley Twins took care not to perform a spell when they used magic on a Muggle (and, yes, they clearly planned that little stunt) so that the magic wouldn't be detectable.

By the same token, Lily could very well have had frog spawn in her pocket and used it and other ingredients in a potion that she concocted with Sev, but the MoM wouldn't detect a potion, even if it were stirred with a wand, because it doesn't involve a spell.

That said, I suspect that she did perform a bit of magic at home, showing off a little and making her parents "proud to have a witch in the family" (and increasing Petunia's jealousy), but she probably didn't receive more than a reminder of the restriction against underage magic (and, possibly, the Statute of Secrecy, though it was irrelevant in her case since her family already knew about magic and Hogwarts).

At any rate, it's just another instance of JKR's indifference to consistency in details that readers quickly pick up on.

Carol, who has forgotten whatever else she intended to say :-(




From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Oct 31 00:58:57 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:58:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hcg0dk+74ul@eGroups.com>
References: <hcg0dk+74ul@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4AEB8BD1.8000501@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188302

justcarol67 wrote:
> That said, I suspect that she did perform a bit of magic at home, showing off a little and making her parents "proud to have a witch in the family" (and increasing Petunia's jealousy), but she probably didn't receive more than a reminder of the restriction against underage magic (and, possibly, the Statute of Secrecy, though it was irrelevant in her case since her family already knew about magic and Hogwarts).
>   

Bart:
    Frankly, I think the underage magic prohibition falls apart under 
any close examination. Here are just SOME of my questions:

1) How are young wizards and witches supposed to keep their skills up?
2) Since the Ministry can't tell who is doing the spell, it means that 
kids in Wizarding families can do as much magic as their parents allow, 
while kids in Muggle families can't do magic at all. Yet, the muggleborn 
don't seem to be at any sort of disadvantage during the school year.
3) This kind of makes going to Hogwarts mandatory for British 
schoolchildren; homeschooling is out. So there is none of this matter of 
choice in accepting Hogwarts.

       Bart



From keywestdaze at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 01:26:49 2009
From: keywestdaze at yahoo.com (Christy)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:26:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <hcg0dk+74ul@eGroups.com>
References: <hcg0dk+74ul@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <611762.73250.qm@web55007.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188303

>bboyminn:
> 
> So, for the Ministry to take action for magic performed in
> most cases, that magic would have to be pretty significant.
> It would have to be enough to cause some type of incident
> that would get the attention of the Ministry.
> 
> Janelle:
> Going along with that, remember that Mr. Dursley had people over
to dinner- Muggles who had no idea about the wizarding world- when
Dobby dropped that dessert. Perhaps if Harry had accidentally done some
magic with only the Dursleys around he wouldn't have gotten a warning.
>
>Carol responds:
>Good point. There are two kinds of Muggles, those who know about magic and those who don't. Also, magic performed *on* a Muggle would >(normally) be punished more severely than magic performed *in
front of* a Muggle (obviously, the MoM alters this view on at least two
occasions, >Aunt Marge, when they're lenient with Harry, and the Patronus performed to save Dudley (and Harry himself), when they're unduly
harsh.) The >
<snip>
>At any rate, it's just another instance of JKR's indifference to consistency in details that readers quickly pick up on.

Christy:
I would suggest that the Ministry's reaction to Harry's Patronus in OOTP is the exception not the rule, and the warning he received in COS is more the norm. In OOTP Fudge, Umbridge and their "allies" wanted to discredit Harry and neutralizze the threat that perceived him to be (by claiming Voldemort had returned and therefore undermining the peace and security under Fudge's administration). The dementors failed, thanks to Harry; so, they took the opportunity to charge him with underage magic and "take him down" that way. Consequently, JKR wasn't inconsistent.

Christy




________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, October 30, 2009 8:29:40 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Under age magic - just wondering?

  
bboyminn:
> 
> So, for the Ministry to take action for magic performed in
> most cases, that magic would have to be pretty significant.
> It would have to be enough to cause some type of incident
> that would get the attention of the Ministry.
> 
> Janelle:
> Going along with that, remember that Mr. Dursley had people over to dinner- Muggles who had no idea about the wizarding world- when Dobby dropped that dessert.  Perhaps if Harry had accidentally done some magic with only the Dursleys around he wouldn't have gotten a warning.
>
Carol responds:

Good point. There are two kinds of Muggles, those who know about magic and those who don't. Also, magic performed *on* a Muggle would (normally) be punished more severely than magic performed *in front of* a Muggle (obviously, the MoM alters this view on at least two occasions, Aunt Marge, when they're lenient with Harry, and the Patronus performed to save Dudley (and Harry himself), when they're unduly harsh.) The Weasley Twins took care not to perform a spell when they used magic on a Muggle (and, yes, they clearly planned that little stunt) so that the magic wouldn't be detectable.

By the same token, Lily could very well have had frog spawn in her pocket and used it and other ingredients in a potion that she concocted with Sev, but the MoM wouldn't detect a potion, even if it were stirred with a wand, because it doesn't involve a spell.

That said, I suspect that she did perform a bit of magic at home, showing off a little and making her parents "proud to have a witch in the family" (and increasing Petunia's jealousy), but she probably didn't receive more than a reminder of the restriction against underage magic (and, possibly, the Statute of Secrecy, though it was irrelevant in her case since her family already knew about magic and Hogwarts).

At any rate, it's just another instance of JKR's indifference to consistency in details that readers quickly pick up on.

Carol, who has forgotten whatever else she intended to say :-(


   


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 11:14:26 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:14:26 -0000
Subject: Usage of Veritaserum during Legal Hearings in the MoM?
Message-ID: <hch66i+3kvi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188304

Was just wondering about this: Both in GoF and OoTP we get to learn about legal hearings / trials (sometimes via the Pensieve). 

However, we don't get to see *anybody* deciding to use Veritaserum to know if the person being questioned is saying the truth. Whether it is Crouch Jr. or Bagman or Harry or Mrs Figg, they are interrogated the Muggle way.

Any thoughts on this topic? Sorry if this has been discussed already.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 15:40:09 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 15:40:09 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <611762.73250.qm@web55007.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hchlop+8du1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188305


Carol earlier:
> >Good point. There are two kinds of Muggles, those who know about magic and those who don't. Also, magic performed *on* a Muggle would (normally) be punished more severely than magic performed *in front of* a Muggle (obviously, the MoM alters this view on at least two occasions, Aunt Marge, when they're lenient with Harry, and the Patronus performed to save Dudley (and Harry himself), when they're unduly harsh.)
> <snip>
> >At any rate, it's just another instance of JKR's indifference to consistency in details that readers quickly pick up on.
> 
> Christy:
> I would suggest that the Ministry's reaction to Harry's Patronus in OOTP is the exception not the rule, and the warning he received in COS is more the norm. In OOTP Fudge, Umbridge and their "allies" wanted to discredit Harry and neutralizze the threat that perceived him to be (by claiming Voldemort had returned and therefore undermining the peace and security under Fudge's administration). The dementors failed, thanks to Harry; so, they took the opportunity to charge him with underage magic and "take him down" that way. Consequently, JKR wasn't inconsistent.
> 
> Christy
> 
Carol responds:
Yes, I cited the Patronus incident as an exception--when the MoM was unduly harsh for the reasons you cited, just as it was unusually lenient, again under special circumstances, with Aunt Marge. But my point is that there are two kinds of Muggles, those who know about magic and those who don't (the Dursleys vs. Aunt Marge and the cake lady), and there's a difference between performing magic *on* a Muggle, as Morfin Gaunt did (the hex on Tom Riddle Sr.) amd *in front of* a Muggle (a floating cake that happens to land on the Muggle--the MoM didn't know about that part). So, I don't disagree with you, but I think that you missed my pointing out the Patronus incident as an exception. I agree that the Hover Charm incident is dealt with in a more usual way (ignoring the fact that Harry didn't perform it).

Of course, the Morfin Gaunt incident raises the question of how the MoM knew that magic had been performed against a Muggle if Morfin wasn't a minor at the time--and how they knew that the Riddles had been killed if they weren't alerted by Tom Riddle's underage magic. Certainly, Morfin wasn't a minor at that time, which should have eliminated suspicion against him regardless of his record as a Muggle hexer.

Carol, who agrees with Bart that the whole prohibition against underage magic motif is not well thought out





From sandie.hans at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 15:01:30 2009
From: sandie.hans at gmail.com (spa76)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 15:01:30 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
Message-ID: <hchjga+5g1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188306

Sandie: Happy Halloween, HP fans! I was having a convo with a friend, and we couldn't agree on the answer to these DH questions:

1. Are the elder Lovegoods and Weasleys friends? The Weasleys invite the Lovegoods to Fleur & Bill's wedding, and it's mentioned they live near each other, so why does it seem like Luna and Ron & Ginny didn't know each other prior to Hogwarts? In fact, doesn't Ron "meet" Luna in OotP? Or are we supposed to think Wizarding weddings are huge, so the Weasleys invited many of their wizarding neighbors?

2. How long was Ron at Shell Cottage/away from Harry & Hermione? I thought it was a matter of weeks but my friend and I couldn't settle on an exact time.

3. The last question is about the next gen... In a canon-based fanfic I read, the author referred to the three Potter kids as purebloods and the two Weasley kids as half bloods. Obviously Ron and Hermione's kids are half bloods, but is that correct about the Potter kids (HB Harry + PB Ginny = PB kids?). I kinda thought once a PB wizard married anything other than a PB, their kids were no longer PB.

Thanks!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 16:11:45 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:11:45 -0000
Subject: Usage of Veritaserum during Legal Hearings in the MoM?
In-Reply-To: <hch66i+3kvi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hchnk1+o22m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188307

Joey wrote:
>
> Was just wondering about this: Both in GoF and OoTP we get to learn about legal hearings / trials (sometimes via the Pensieve). 
> 
> However, we don't get to see *anybody* deciding to use Veritaserum to know if the person being questioned is saying the truth. Whether it is Crouch Jr. or Bagman or Harry or Mrs Figg, they are interrogated the Muggle way.
> 
> Any thoughts on this topic? Sorry if this has been discussed already.

Carol responds:

In the case of Mrs. Figg, I think that it was clear to Amelia Bones, at least, that Mrs. Figg had indeed been present and felt the effects of the Dementors. Whether she could see them was immaterial; she told the Wizengamot "what happened" and they believed her. Of course, they might have been impressed by Harry's Patronus or intimidated by the presence of Dumbledore, but the main thing is, she convinced them that the Dementors were there and had indeed threatened both Harry and Dudley, making Harry's Patronus justifiable as self-defense and protection of a Muggle.

DD offered to let them re-examine Mrs. Figg, and, of course, once they'd heard "what happened" from a grown-up, they could actually have cross-examined Harry in a way that allowed him to speak in his own defense (Amelia Bones was clearly not under Umbridge's influence as Fudge apparently was).

So Veritaserum wasn't necessary in this instance, even if anyone had dared to suggest it in front of Dumbledore, who, stripped of his honors or not, was still the most powerful person in the room.

But I agree that WW court procedures leave a great deal to be desired, even in comparison with (British or American) Muggle methods, which would have allowed Harry to speak in his own defense.

To return to Veritaserum, it's probably used only in cases of murder in which there are no witnesses (which is why it wasn't used for Sirius Black--plenty of witnesses, all, unfortunately, memory-wiped afterward) and no confession (which is why it wasn't used on Morfin, who confessed in detail to the murders of the Riddles despite not having actually killed them). I can see using it (or a Pensieve memory) on Harry in his testimony against Snape, but things didn't work out that way--and Snape could have requested the same procedures in his own defense if they had.

Oh, well. I suppose we would all have written the books slightly differently had we invented these characters and events. As it is, we have to live with inconsistencies by the author and breaches in logic or common sense by the characters.

With regard to Crouch Jr., I assume that you're talking about his sentencing, not DD and Snape's use of Veritaserum on him in "Moody's" office, and assuming that Barty Jr., Bellatrix, and the Lestrange brothers were interrogated the Muggle way. However, it's clear from her behavior at the sentencing that Bellatrix, at least, has already gleefully and proudly confessed that "we" (she and her male followers) did indeed Crucio the Longbottoms into insanity in the hope of finding out information on the Dark Lord. No need for Veritaserum in such circumstances.

As for Bagman, he confessed to giving information to Rookwood, but his statement that he didn't know Rookwood was a DE spy seems credible given his character and intelligence level. It's only Crouch Sr. who seems to think that he knew what he was doing. Again, I see no reason for Veritaserum here.

BTW, the inconsistency I see is the reaction to Karkaroff's testimony. He flees the wrath of LV and the DEs, who end up killing him, as if half of them were in prison because of him when in fact, it's only Rookwood who is discovered through him. The others (Snape aside) were already in prison. Maybe it's the principle of the thing--the idea that he would rat on the others to save his own skin--rather than their actually being arrested because of him. Dolohov, Mulciber et al. could hardly have known that he mentioned their names. They were already in prison. And it's interesting that Karkaroff didn't know that. The prisoners must be isolated, so Sirius Black's seeing Bellatrix et al. come in and "Barty Jr." being carried out for burial must be unusual. Then, again, he kept his senses through knowing that he was innocent and through transforming into a dog. But even he probably didn't know everything that was going on.

Carol, who suspects that there aren't many topics that haven't already been discussed, including this one




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 16:29:16 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:29:16 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <hchjga+5g1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hchoks+h5f6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188308

Sandie wrote:
<snip>
> 
> 1. Are the elder Lovegoods and Weasleys friends? The Weasleys invite the Lovegoods to Fleur & Bill's wedding, and it's mentioned they live near each other, so why does it seem like Luna and Ron & Ginny didn't know each other prior to Hogwarts? In fact, doesn't Ron "meet" Luna in OotP? Or are we supposed to think Wizarding weddings are huge, so the Weasleys invited many of their wizarding neighbors?

Carol responds:
I don't think that the Weasleys and Lovegoods are friends (though perhaps Molly and Mrs. Lovegood were before Mrs. L. died), but they're certainly acquaintances. For example, Mr. W. knows that the Lovegoods couldn't get tickets to the QWT.

As for why the Lovegoods are invited to Bill and Fleur's wedding, Luna and Ginny are in the same year and friends of sorts, and Luna fought DEs at the MoM, which certainly seems like a good reason to invite her to join the celebration. And, of course, if you invite Luna, you invite "Daddy." I'm pretty sure that Ron, like Ginny, already knows who "Loony" is. He's with Hermione in the Prefect carriage when Harry, Neville, and Ginny sit down with her. It's Neville who doesn't know Luna and is intimidated by her very evident eccentricity.
> 
> 2. How long was Ron at Shell Cottage/away from Harry & Hermione? I thought it was a matter of weeks but my friend and I couldn't settle on an exact time.

Carol responds:
All I know is that it's late March--and the Easter holiday--when the Snatchers kidnap HRH and Dobby is killed. (JKR has her years mixed up; Easter 1998 was in April, but she seems to think that the year is 1997.) And it's some time in May when they fight the Battle of Hogwarts. I'd say that they were at Shell Cottage just over a month (and Teddy is born some time in April), but you're right that the time frame is vague.
> 
> 3. The last question is about the next gen... In a canon-based fanfic I read, the author referred to the three Potter kids as purebloods and the two Weasley kids as half bloods. Obviously Ron and Hermione's kids are half bloods, but is that correct about the Potter kids (HB Harry + PB Ginny = PB kids?). I kinda thought once a PB wizard married anything other than a PB, their kids were no longer PB.
>
Carol responds:
I think what matters is that all four grandparents would be witches and wizards. In Harry's case, he has two Muggle grandparents, so he's a Half-Blood, but that wouldn't apply to his children. If the WW kept track of the degree of Muggle blood in their veins (Harry's kids as 3/4 bloods, the next generation as perhaps 3/8 bloods if my math is right) there would be no purebloods.

Carol, not sure that she's correct on that last answer, but thinking that it's simpler and less confusing than continuing to consider kids with four wizarding grandparents Halr-bloods




From brian at rescueddoggies.com  Sat Oct 31 13:12:02 2009
From: brian at rescueddoggies.com (Brian)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:12:02 -0300
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
Message-ID: <4AEC37A2.2020801@rescueddoggies.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188309

Replying to Christy, who said:
 >  I would suggest that the Ministry's reaction to Harry's Patronus in 
OOTP is the exception not the rule, and the warning he received in COS 
is more the norm. In OOTP Fudge, Umbridge and their "allies" wanted to 
discredit Harry and neutralizze the threat that perceived him to be (by 
claiming Voldemort had returned and therefore undermining the peace and 
security under Fudge's administration). The dementors failed, thanks to 
Harry; so, they took the opportunity to charge him with underage magic 
and "take him down" that way. Consequently, JKR wasn't inconsistent.<


Brian:
I'm always amazed how far people will try to twist what's in the books 
to cover up inconsistencies in the books.
Even JKR doesn't deny that there are errors.
In this example there is nothing whatsoever in the book to suggest that 
the mechanism used to issue the warning was any different to that used 
in any other, nor is there anything in the books to suggest that the 
Ministry can tell WHO is actually present (as in which Muggles and what 
they know).  Umbridge's plan was apparently to kill Harry.  The warning 
(which seems to be automated or semi-automated judging by its speed, no 
matter the time of day or night and the fact that it's always signed by 
Malfalda Hopkirk, who surely can't be on duty 24/7) was issued before 
she would have known if her plan had succeeded or not. 
Let's face it, when a fanfic writer with a few thousand readers makes 
errors, he or she will receive reviews pointing every error out in often 
the strongest terms.  JKRs books would have been improved if she'd had 
decent editors who were professional enough to actually check the books 
properly and with the courage to point out mistakes before they were 
inflicted on us.  Although I criticise JKR sometimes, this is NOT JKRs 
fault.  It is the fault of her publishers.
Let's face it, a publisher who misses something obvious like the missing 
24 hours in Philosopher's stone, or the fact that every September 1st 
seems to be a Sunday (school starts the next day in every year) may be 
good at making money, but lacks integrity when it comes to their 
readers.  Or maybe, because the books were intended for children, they 
thought that accuracy didn't matter.  Frankly, that is offensive.

Brian




From sandie.hans at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 17:44:35 2009
From: sandie.hans at gmail.com (spa76)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 17:44:35 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Ron's absence
In-Reply-To: <hchoks+h5f6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcht23+4ilb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188310

Carol: All I know is that it's late March--and the Easter holiday--when the Snatchers kidnap HRH and Dobby is killed... I'd say that they were at Shell Cottage just over a month (and Teddy is born some time in April), but you're right that the time frame is vague.

Sandie responds: Oh, I wasn't even thinking about the post "Malfoy Manor" time at Shell Cottage, although thank you for that answer. I was wondering about the amount of time Ron was away from Harry & Hermione until Christmas and "The Silver Doe" chapter, when he returns and saves Harry/destroys the locket.

Thanks for your input on the Lovegoods and the blood status. I think in the end, it only matters to the pureblood fanatics, because the Potters and Weasleys would not have cared at all what their kids were or weren't considered to pureblood racists. It was just an interesting point made in one of those Rose/Scorpius fanfics (Rose being a HB and Scorpius a PB). Thanks again.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 18:17:15 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:17:15 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <hchjga+5g1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hchuvb+mte0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188311

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spa76" <sandie.hans at ...> wrote:

> 2. How long was Ron at Shell Cottage/away from Harry & Hermione? 
> I thought it was a matter of weeks but my friend and I couldn't 
> settle on an exact time.


zanooda:

All we know is that Ron came back to Harry and Hermione right after Christmas, but it is unclear when exactly he left them before :-). When he returned, Hermione said something like "you come back after weeks..." ("The Silver Doe"), so maybe you are right and your friend is wrong, but really it is too vague in the book to be sure :-). 

I had an impression that it was still autumn  when he left, but in this case it would be more likely "months" than "weeks", wouldn't it :-)? The Trio infiltrated MoM on September 2nd, right? This means that Ron left some time in October or November, but I can't be certain :-). More likely November, IMO.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 19:08:14 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 19:08:14 -0000
Subject: Usage of Veritaserum during Legal Hearings in the MoM?
In-Reply-To: <hch66i+3kvi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hci1uu+u9s1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188312

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "happyjoeysmiley" <happyjoeysmiley at ...> wrote:

> However, we don't get to see *anybody* deciding to use
> Veritaserum to know if the person being questioned is 
> saying the truth. Whether it is Crouch Jr. or Bagman 
> or Harry or Mrs Figg, they are interrogated the Muggle way.


zanooda:

Yeah, we were also wondering why no one used Veritaserum or the Pensieve to find out if Sirius Black was guilty or innocent :-). But, you know, I believe they just don't consider Veritaserum, Pensieve or even Legilimency reliable enough. There are ways to fight them: we know that Slughorn faked his memories, DD mentioned that there is an antidote to Veritaserum, and is there any need to remind what a good Occlumens can do (Snape :-))? It is even possible to resist the Imperius Curse (Harry)!

Of course, most of the wizards won't be able to use any of these methods, but still, they exist, and even a theoretical possibility to alter the result of an interrogation means that Veritaserum and Pensieve evidence shouldn't be considered proof enough, not officially, anyway. They are like our Muggle lie detectors - the results may be taken into consideration, but they still don't prove anything :-). JMO.





From sandie.hans at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 18:26:37 2009
From: sandie.hans at gmail.com (spa76)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:26:37 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <hchuvb+mte0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hchvgt+9u8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188313

> zanooda: All we know is that Ron came back to Harry and Hermione right after Christmas, but it is unclear when exactly he left them before :-). When he returned, Hermione said something like "you come back after weeks..." <snip>
> 
> I had an impression that it was still autumn  when he left, but in this case it would be more likely "months" than "weeks", wouldn't it :-)? The Trio infiltrated MoM on September 2nd, right? This means that Ron left some time in October or November, but I can't be certain :-). More likely November, IMO.

Sandie responds: Another reason I figured it wasn't "months" is that it would've been much harder for Bill to keep it a secret from the rest of the Weasleys. We know he was able to avoid the issue of Christmas by claiming he and Fleur wanted to spend their first Christmas as a married couple alone, but had Ron been hiding at his house for 2+ months, it would've been significantly harder for B&F to keep it a secret, no?





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 20:01:20 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 20:01:20 -0000
Subject: Under age magic - just wondering?
In-Reply-To: <4AEC37A2.2020801@rescueddoggies.com>
Message-ID: <hci52g+eljd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188314

Christy wrote:
>  >  <snip> In OOTP Fudge, Umbridge and their "allies" wanted to  discredit Harry and neutralizze the threat that perceived him to be (by claiming Voldemort had returned and therefore undermining the peace and security under Fudge's administration). The dementors failed, thanks to Harry; so, they took the opportunity to charge him with underage magic and "take him down" that way. Consequently, JKR wasn't inconsistent.<
> 
> 
> Brian:
> I'm always amazed how far people will try to twist what's in the books to cover up inconsistencies in the books.
> Even JKR doesn't deny that there are errors.

Carol:
True, but neither she nor her editors have spotted all the errors that we diligent fans catch. :-)

Brian:
> In this example there is nothing whatsoever in the book to suggest that the mechanism used to issue the warning was any different to that used in any other, nor is there anything in the books to suggest that the Ministry can tell WHO is actually present (as in which Muggles and what they know). 

Carol responds:
I don't think that's what Christy was suggesting. (Certainly, *I* wasn't in my response to her.) Obviously, as in other instances, the MoM knew that a Muggle was present. What's different in this instance is that they actually stage a full trial in front of the Wizengamot for a case of underage magic in front of a Muggle (in contrast to, say, Morfin's use of magic *on* a Muggle, which clearly was a crime in the view of Bob Ogden and the MoM of his time)). The MoM would have expelled Harry and taken his wand away before the hearing had Dumbledore not stepped in, they expanded what should have been a hearing in front of Amanda Bones into a full trial before the Wizengamot, and they might well have sent him to Azkaban had DD not again stepped in, bringing Mrs. Figg as a semi-credible witness.

Brian:
Umbridge's plan was apparently to kill Harry.

Carol responds:
Clearly not since the Dementors don't kill; they suck souls. The question is whether she really intended for them to do so or whether she wanted to provoke him into using a Patronus (which she knew through Fudge and/or Percy that he could cast) and get him into trouble, discrediting Dumbledore at the same time. (Fudge, of course, knew nothing about the Dementors but definitely wanted to get Harry out of the way and discredit Dumbledore. Umbridge states her motive in front of the Inquisitorial Squad, HRH, a three other DA members, and it isn't to kill or even soul-suck Harry. It's simply to make him look bad (as the Daily Prophet was already doing). Fudge thought that DD was trying to take over the Ministry and Umbridge either believed the same thing or, more likely, fed his delusion and his fears for her own purposes.

Brian:
  The warning (which seems to be automated or semi-automated judging by its speed, no matter the time of day or night and the fact that it's always signed by Malfalda Hopkirk, who surely can't be on duty 24/7) was issued before she would have known if her plan had succeeded or not. 

Carol responds:
I'm not sure what your point is here since something similar happens with the magically multiplied and readdressed Hogwarts letters in SS/PS. Of course, it's improbable, but we're supposed to believe that it's magic.

Christy's point, I think, was that the procedure in this instance differed from the normal procedure in terms of the severity of the intended punishment for the underage magic/breach of the Statute of Secrecy. No one that I know of is saying anything about the mechanism behind the warnings, only that their tone and content were different from what Christy and I perceive to be the more standard warnings in CoS (and the complete cover-up of Harry's accidental magic against a Muggle in PoA, which also differs from the standard procedure--Harry thinks he'll be expelled if not arrested and instead Fudge shrugs it off and makes sure that Aunt Marge is brought back to normal and Obliviated.)

Brian:
> <snip> JKRs books would have been improved if she'd had decent editors who were professional enough to actually check the books  properly and with the courage to point out mistakes before they were inflicted on us.

Carol:
I happen to agree with you though not necessarily with regard to this example. Even in SS/PS, we have the Charlie Weasley problem and the Missing Twenty-four hours, which I suppose the copyeditor either didn't notice or thought was beyond the scope of his or her job (there was no consistency editor at that point since it was the first book). The project editor may or may not have noticed those problems but probably thought they weren't worth worrying about in a first novel/children's book that might not even sell.

Later, Scholastic, at least, hired a consistency editor and a few discrepancies (such as the description of Percy's badge--silver in one book and red and gold in another) were made consistent in subsequent editions. So was the discrepancy in Sir Nicholas's death date (400 years ago in one book and 500 in another). Other details (e.g., Moaning Myrtle's U-bend turning into an S-bend) were deemed too minor to merit correction. (I don't know if anyone even noticed that the Sorting Hat's stool has three legs in some books and four legs in others. I noticed, but, then, I'm a copyeditor.) Other details, such as September 1 always being a Monday, the number of students in Harry's classes, and the Charlie Weasley problem, are probably unfixable.  

Brian:
> Although I criticise JKR sometimes, this is NOT JKRs fault.  It is the fault of her publishers. <snip>

Carol responds:
I assume that you mean the fault of her various editors (unless the publishers told the editors to edit lightly--certainly, the American copyeditor was told to change fewer Briticisms in the later books than in SS/PS). But the ultimate responsibility *always* lies with the author, who has the right to accept or reject any suggested edits in a manuscript already accepted for publication. (If she were an unknown, she might need to make a few substantive changes before the project editor accepted the book; once she's a best-selling author, of course, it's unlikely that they'd request sweeping changes.) JKR herself was, of course, working to a deadline, but editors at all levels (and even proofreaders) also have deadlines. The book has a production schedule, and everyone involved has to complete his or her work on time. 

Carol, who hopes that JKR will take a good, long look at the criticisms readers have made of her books, fix what she can, and learn to consult previous books rather than trusting her less than photographic memory on details (such as Draco's Hand of Glory) if she plans any future series




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 20:17:31 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 20:17:31 -0000
Subject: DH Questions: Lovegoods/Ron's absence/blood status
In-Reply-To: <hchvgt+9u8n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hci60r+8jsa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188315



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spa76" <sandie.hans at ...> wrote:
>
> > zanooda: All we know is that Ron came back to Harry and Hermione right after Christmas, but it is unclear when exactly he left them before :-). When he returned, Hermione said something like "you come back after weeks..." <snip>
> > 
> > I had an impression that it was still autumn  when he left, but in this case it would be more likely "months" than "weeks", wouldn't it :-)? The Trio infiltrated MoM on September 2nd, right? This means that Ron left some time in October or November, but I can't be certain :-). More likely November, IMO.
> 
> Sandie responds: Another reason I figured it wasn't "months" is that it would've been much harder for Bill to keep it a secret from the rest of the Weasleys. We know he was able to avoid the issue of Christmas by claiming he and Fleur wanted to spend their first Christmas as a married couple alone, but had Ron been hiding at his house for 2+ months, it would've been significantly harder for B&F to keep it a secret, no?
>
Carol responds:
Sorry that I misunderstood which visit to Shell Cottage you were referring to. However, we do have some clues to how long Ron was gone. First, he clearly leaves in autumn ("Goblin's Revenge"). Also, the visit to the MoM in which HRH retrieve the locket Horcrux, takes place on September 2 ("Magic Is Might"). Dirk Cresswell, who apparently has just been exposed at that time as a Muggle-born thanks to the odious Runcorn, tells Ted Tonks that he's been on the run for six or seven weeks. That would place the conversation (assuming that JKR is paying attention to the time frame) at approximately October 21 (going with the seven-week estimate). If that's correct, Ron is away from Harry and Hermione for just over two months since he seems to return on the day after Christmas.

Bill doesn't need to tell his family about Ron, but he does need to make an excuse for not being with them for Christmas. Ron, it seems, leaves on Christmas Day and just misses them that night.

Carol, realizing that Dirk Cresswell could have fled later than September 2




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 31 23:35:39 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 23:35:39 -0000
Subject: Usage of Veritaserum during Legal Hearings in the MoM?
In-Reply-To: <hch66i+3kvi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hcihkb+c13i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188316



---  "happyjoeysmiley" <happyjoeysmiley at ...> wrote:
>
> Was just wondering about this: Both in GoF and OoTP we get to learn about legal hearings / trials (sometimes via the Pensieve). 
> 
> However, we don't get to see *anybody* deciding to use Veritaserum to know if the person being questioned is saying the truth. Whether it is Crouch Jr. or Bagman or Harry or Mrs Figg, they are interrogated the Muggle way.
> 
> Any thoughts on this topic? Sorry if this has been discussed already.
> 
> Cheers,
> ~Joey :-)
>

bboyminn:

I believe JKR was asked this question and pointed out that
Veritaserum and its use is strickly controlled, and that there
are way around it, the same as there are ways around lie 
detectors. If the speaker believes that what he says is true
then he is able to speak it as if it were truth.

Someone else mentioned antidotes, I suspect, if you can see
it coming, or if you are aware of it before the effect takes
hold, then like the Imperius Curse, and Legilimency attacks,
you can resist it. 

So it is not foolproof. Plus, the Wizard world does have a
"Charter of Rights", so there are some boundaries on the 
government and what it can do. 

As to why it wasn't used on Sirius; there was no need. He
was found at the scene, there were witnesses, he didn't deny
his actions or responsibility. Though his context of how he
was responsible was very different than the Ministries
perception of his responsibility. He didn't deny that he was
guilty, in not defending himself, he implied he was guilty. 

Plus, we need to look at this from the perspective of a 
politician. If Veritaserum can be used against every petty 
criminal for every petty crime, then it can certainly be
used against Ministry members who are accused of crimes. I
don't think any politician would want that. So under the
guise of protecting human rights, Veritaserums would only 
be used under the most extreme and unusual circumstances.

Steve/bboyminn