chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley

[potioncat]

No: HPFGUIDX 187920


> Pippin:
Just as Draco isn't exactly wrong about Hagrid and is darn right about some things, Hagrid wasn't exactly  wrong about Slytherin. But does that mean that Draco isn't prejudiced against Hagrid? Is it fair to make claims that can't be substantiated ("ends up setting fire to his bed") and say nothing of Hagrid's courage or his loyalty, his devotion to Hogwarts or the high regard which many other characters have for him?

Potioncat:
Well, I think I get your point, but just to clarify, I meant that Draco's abuse of Hagrid is one the reasons Harry (and most readers) don't like Draco. Yet Draco isn't too far off the mark. In a later book Luna will tell Harry that most Ravenclaws consider Hagrid to be a joke. So Hagrid isn't uniformly liked. Granted, the tone and purpose of Luna's comments are different than Draco's.

Many of us worry about the nature of a man who would give a child a pig's tail in retaliation on the father ---and we're the ones who like him.


 
> Pippin:
It's much the same with Snape and Slughorn and the other Slytherins.  To disregard their courage and loyalty, to believe the worst (and only the worst) which is said about them and ignore their devotion to Hogwarts and the regard which many other characters have for them, is, IMO, to do just as Draco did.

Potioncat:
In the beginning Harry is judging Slytherin by Hagrid's comments, and by his interaction with Draco (at the Sorting Hat). But as the series unfolds, every contact with Slytherins is a bad one. We have Snape, the Slytherin Quidditch team, Draco, etc. There is never so much as a neutral interaction. There are a couple of Slytherins that we never see Harry interact with, but nothing else. So we are never given any reason to think there might be more to Slytherins.

Over the years, students from all houses at Hogwarts turn against Harry, yet there is generally someone from each house--except Slytherin---who supports him. So we are never given any idea that Slytherin is anything but bad.

It's not until DH that Harry and the reader start to see any positive Slytherins. (OK, HBP if you count Slughorn, but he doesn't look good until the very end of DH.) I should add, that some of us saw Snape as a good Slytherin early on, but Harry had little reason to think so.

I'm just not sure that the reader, and perhaps JKR herself, doesn't think that Snape and Slughorn were the exception to Slytherin---just like Lily was different from the other Muggle-borns. (Wait a minute, I'm proving your point, aren't I?) But my point is that I don't think very many would get it.




Pippin:
> I'm laughing over the idea that there's no reversal re Slytherin House. 
> 
snip
> 
Hagrid's example of a Slytherin is Voldemort, Harry's is Snape. Hagrid says it's better to be a duffer than a Slytherin, because only Slytherins turn out to be dark wizards, Harry says the major consequence of Al being chosen for Slytherin will be that Slytherin gets an excellent student. Hagrid speaks "darkly" (ooh, a Tom Swifty), Harry speaks quietly, using reason, not fear. Harry, unlike Hagrid or Draco, respects Al's right to decide who the wrong sort are for himself.

Potioncat:
I should probably point out, before someone else does, that I've taken both sides on this debate. It never seemed to make sense to me that everyone in Slytherin should be bad. Yet at the same time, it's all JKR ever showed us. However, if we'd read a book about young Severus Snape we'd think all Gryffindors were bad.

But I'd like to ask this, "I'm laughing over the idea that there's no reversal re Slytherin House." Do you mean you think Slytherin House changed, or Harry's view of Slytherin House changed? Or that the readers' view of Slytherin should change by the ending? What do you think the Slytherin House of Al's day will look like?

Because I' m wondering what it is that makes Al afraid of being Slytherin? Is it that he's afraid he won't make Gryffindor, and the idea of any other house is unsatisfactory? Is it that his drive to excel has earned him some teasing, and he's denying his inner ambition?  And again, I'm not sure that JKR doesn't think Snape and Horace are exceptions.