chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 187961


 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, Draco is not self proclaimed character who often speaks for the author, right? Therefore I think it is a bit easier to argue both sides whether author agrees with his contentions or not.
> 
> I am actually curious, what  positive developments were coming  for Slytherin house after Prince tale, because I do not remember any. Snape did his job and dead. Slughorn is already there. We already know about Regulus' story.

Pippin:
Huh? Slughorn doesn't return until just before the final duel with Voldemort.  JKR's closing argument is Snape, Hogwarts headmaster and probably the bravest man that Harry ever knew. He is the last Slytherin mentioned in the story.

Potioncat:
In the beginning Harry is judging Slytherin by Hagrid's comments, and by his interaction with Draco (at the Sorting Hat). But as the series unfolds, every contact with Slytherins is a bad one. We have Snape, the Slytherin Quidditch team, Draco, etc. There is never so much as a neutral interaction. There are a couple of Slytherins that we never see Harry interact with, but nothing else. So we are never given any reason to think there might be more to Slytherins.

Pippin:
Um, I can't believe you've forgotten all the things we always point to to show that Slytherins weren't all bad, starting with Snape saving Harry's life. I suppose what you mean is that *Harry* doesn't view any of it positively almost to the end. But that's the way prejudice works, isn't it? You don't need proof in order to believe the bad stuff, but you'll do your best to ignore, deny or discredit anything good.

I think the Slytherins who stand for Harry in GoF rank as one of the great lost opportunities in canon, right up there with Snape not hearing Lily when she says his friends are evil. Here's a bunch of kids telling the world they are on Harry's side, literally "standing up to their friends" and Harry completely ignores them.

Potioncat:
I'm just not sure that the reader, and perhaps JKR herself, doesn't think that Snape and Slughorn were the exception to Slytherin---just like Lily was different from the other Muggle-borns. (Wait a minute, I'm proving your point,aren't I?) But my point is that I don't think very many would get it.

Pippin:

I think they get the overall point.  

Of course Snape and Slughorn were exceptions, just as Lily was. If Snape was probably the bravest man that Harry ever knew, he'd be exceptional in any house, Gryffindor included. Harry is critical of  Slughorn for implying that Muggleborns wouldn't have their share of outstanding students. We're left to ask ourselves why the same wouldn't apply to Slytherin itself. 

If we never ask, it doesn't change the overall message. It just leaves Slytherin House as unrealistically bad. 

Potioncat:
But I'd like to ask this, "I'm laughing over the idea that there's no reversal re Slytherin House." Do you mean you think Slytherin House changed, or Harry's view of Slytherin House changed? Or that the readers' view of Slytherin should change by the ending? What do you think the Slytherin House of Al's day willlook like?

Because I' m wondering what it is that makes Al afraid of being Slytherin? Is it that he's afraid he won't make Gryffindor, and the idea of any other house is unsatisfactory? Is it that his drive to excel has earned him some teasing, andhe's denying his inner ambition? And again, I'm not sure that JKR doesn't think
Snape and Horace are exceptions.

Pippin:
Hmmm. If the characteristics of the Houses aren't stable across the generations, then we have absolutely no data on the Slytherins of Al's day. OTOH, if they are, then the examples of Snape's generation should be just as relevant as the examples of Draco's, and we don't need to have a Regulus or a Snape in Harry's year to prove that there could be a person like that in Al's. 

I would say that Harry's view of the House expanded. The Hat does seem to try to steer abnormal children into Slytherin, and they stand out there because they'd stand out anywhere. But how many wizarding kids are abnormal? Certainly not a quarter of the population. 

How many wizards actually join Voldemort, really join him, not just go along because they are hexed or frightened? A quarter of them? No way. There's thirty wizards in the graveyard. That's not much to show for fifty years worth of recruiting.

I see Al as a worrier. He knows he's not  confident and brash like his brother, and he worries that it means he's not brave enough to be a Gryffindor. I'm sure he's wished he could give his overbearing brother a thumping good hex once in a while, and worried about that too. So he thinks maybe he's not really a brave or good person, and the Hat will see that and put him in Slytherin. 

I'm not so sure Harry just knows there's nothing wrong with Al...he himself never suspected he had a bit of Voldemort stuck to the inside of his head. When he says it won't make any difference to him, I don't think that's because he can't conceive of Al ever doing something really terrible, whether he's in Gryffindor or not. If Albus Dumbledore could kill his sister, then anyone could kill someone else. 

Gryffindors don't generally plot to kill people, but they can, they have, lashed out in anger or desperation with lethal results. Voldemort, you'll notice, never did that -- not until he got a bit of Harry in him. 

I think both boys know that Slytherin has a troubled past, but that they're not supposed to use "Slytherin" as an insult. Which creates a perfect opportunity for James to use it the way some RL middle schooler use "gay". I don't think James seriously thinks his brother is a potential dark wizard -- he's just being annoying in order to get attention, and he knows he can wrong-foot his parents if they call him on it.

Pippin