Snape and Harry WAS: Hermione and her parents redux

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188182


Carol responds:
Actually, I agree one hundred percent with Potioncat's post. And when I said
that Snape wanted to punish Harry's ingratitude and arrogance, I meant that
Snape had finally had enough. After enduring Harry's taunts and deflecting his
curses, including a Crucio, without hurting him, and after trying to get in a
desperate last lesson about dueling DEs (use Occlumency and nonverbal spells!)
and after saving him from a Crucio and getting the DEs out of Hogwarts-- he
finally punished Harry with a minor spell that simultaneously disarms him and
hurts a little <SNIP>


Alla:

Yes, I know what you meant. What I meant was that by default IMO there could be no insolence and ingratitude here, because normal person or at least the way I view normal people cannot treat murderer any other way but with insolence and ingratitude at  least and with rage at most, at least when murder just occurred. It is unimaginable to me to say that Harry could have had any other behavior there therefore Snape **punishing Harry** no matter with how minor  hex it is Sadism, because there is nothing to punish Harry for in my opinion.

He does not know that what occurred here was not murder, he has no reason to believe that this was anything **but** murder, therefore wanting to cause him any sort of pain is sadistic to me.

Now, if Harry KNEW what plan Dumbledore and Snape cooked up and still taunted Snape, sure I would have said that HARRY behaved as sadist here in disregarding Snape's pain, but Harry has no clue, Snape however does and therefore he if he is not sadist, not supposed to cause pain to anybody else IMO.

Carol:
<SNIP>
But when Harry, in his own pain and anger, implies that Snape not only killed
Dumbledore but killed *James*, whom Snape hated but tried to protect once he
realized that the Prophecy involved Lily, Snape reaches the breaking point. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes and this is what sadistic to me, I mean one of the few instances when I can forgive his sadism, but I refuse to call it anything else but. Harry did nor order him to kill Dumbledore, it was all Dumbledore's doing and Snape's acceptance. Harry suffers already because of Snape and Snape has a nerve to add to his pain.
So basically to me in this situation Harry has every moral reason to taunt Snape and try to curse him and do whatever else. He is reacting to a murder for crying out loud, even if he does not know that it really was not a murderer.

Snape is aware of it perfectly well, yes he is hurting, so let's hurt Harry too, this is totally familiar to me Snape's mode of behavior, but totally despicable one as far as I am concerned.

Carol:
<SNIP>
My main point, though, is that the impulse, at the very end of the battle, to
punish Harry (if that's what he's doing) occurs when Snape is at the end of his
rope, desperate and tortured and furious. He can't tell Harry the truth. He can
only--like Harry himself, who is trying to punish Snape--take out his anger on
the boy he hates. The difference is that Snape is still trying to protect Harry,
that he has much more power than Harry but has refrained from using it, and that
he uses only a minor spell when he could easily have killed or tortured him or
used Sectumsempra. That he did none of those things ought to have been a clue to
Harry that Snape was not the murdering traitor he seemed to be, just as the
lessons he tried to teach ("No Unforgiveable Curses from you": "Close your mind
and your mouth") should have been a clue that he was trying to help Harry fight
as Dumbledore's man. (Snape himself never uses an Unforgiveable Curse other than
the AK on the Tower that we know of and uses Sectumsempra only against a
DE--though, unfortunately, he misses.) <SNIP>


Alla:

I completely disagree that the fact that Snape did any of those things ought to have to clue Harry in that Snape was not a murderer. He just killed somebody, and there is a perfectly logical explanation for all other things that he did or did not to, like that he wanted Voldemort to have Harry for himself for example. He killed Dumbledore, Harry treats him as murderer, if he did not desire to engage with Harry, I would think he would have run as fast as possible, but he did so much more than run.

JMO,

Alla