From bart at moosewise.com Tue Sep 1 02:12:47 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:12:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Curse that killed Bellatrix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A9C831F.5080709@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187668 Zara: > I don't see why not Avada Kedavra. We've seen other angry good guys in dangerous or emotionally charged situations use the other Unforgivables in DH. Why suppose Molly would not? > > I think Molly was trying to kill Bellatrix ("You will never touch our children again!"), so the particular spell she used is not important to me. > Bart: "Unforgivable" is, from context, a legal rather than a moral label. With no legitimate government, there is no valid legal penalty. Bart From bart at moosewise.com Tue Sep 1 02:27:54 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:27:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Curse that killed Bellatrix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A9C86AA.3020709@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187669 sartoris22: > Like Ikotur, I wondered if Molly used the killing curse. I hoped that she didn't because it splits the soul and is punishable by imprisonment in Azkaban. Bart: It's not the AK spell; it's murder that splits the soul. And the soul CAN heal. And, effectively speaking, there was no ministry when Molly cast the spell. Note that even the ministry played fast and loose with it; they allowed Barty/Crouch to use it on a spider as a demonstration to his class. Bart From powerbabe7 at aol.com Tue Sep 1 03:32:03 2009 From: powerbabe7 at aol.com (trianarose) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 03:32:03 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187670 Welcome to the PS/SS chapter discussions! The database for Post DH chapter discussions is now up on Main in the database section. There are several unclaimed chapters for PS/SS remaining, so there are plenty of opportunities for participation left. Please email HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com if you would be interested. Many thanks to Powerbabe for starting the discussions :) This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone Chapter One, The Boy Who Lived We are introduced to the Dursleys, who think they are the most normal family in the world. They fear people finding out about the Potters, but at this point we do not know that the Potters are wizards. While on his way to work Mr. Dursley sees a cat that looks like it can read signs. Of course as we read we discover the significance of the cat. Mr. Dursley goes to work at Grunnings and witnesses a few out of the ordinary events taking place, even people talking about the Potters! When Mr. Dursley gets home, he finds the cat still there and not about to leave. The Dursleys go to sleep and this is when things get interesting. Professor Dumbledore walks down Privet Drive making sure the lights go out so no one will be able to see what is going on. He sees the cat and addresses it as Professor McGonagall. The cat indeed turns into Professor McGonagall. They discuss the events that have been happening, the death of the Potters, Voldemort not being able to kill Harry, and where Harry is to live. Professor McGonagall thinks he does not belong with the Dursleys but Dumbledore insists that he stay there to live a life that is closest to normal as possible. During their conversation we hear the distant sound of a motorcycle and we see Hagrid on a flying motorcycle! He mentions he borrowed it from Sirius Black. He has Harry in his arms and hands him over to Dumbledore who in turn takes him to the front porch and leaves him there with a letter and blankets. Wizards everywhere were toasting Harry Potter.... To the Boy Who Lived! Some questions to think about: 1. Why do you think Dumbledore did not want to take away Harry's scar? 2. Why do you think Dumbledore just left Harry with a note, instead of actually talking to the Dursleys? 3. Why do you think Harry's scar was shaped like a lightning bolt? 4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to stay a cat all day? 5. Please feel free to add your own question. ------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 2, The Vanishing Glass, on September 8 2009. From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Tue Sep 1 04:08:29 2009 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:08:29 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <407C6C53-26A5-4477-9EA8-D7AF96028FFD@acsalaska.net> No: HPFGUIDX 187671 On 2009, Aug 31, , at 19:32, trianarose wrote: > Some questions to think about: > > 1. Why do you think Dumbledore did not want to take away Harry's scar? > 2. Why do you think Dumbledore just left Harry with a note, instead of > actually talking to the Dursleys? > 3. Why do you think Harry's scar was shaped like a lightning bolt? > 4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to > stay a cat > all day? > > 5. Please feel free to add your own question. Why did Dumbledore withhold so much information from Professor McGonagall. She is his second in command and, should something happen to him, the most likely person to be able to continue with his plan. Why didn't he tell her more? Laura Walsh --- Laura Lynn Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sweenlit at gmail.com Tue Sep 1 05:39:36 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:39:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Curse that killed Bellatrix In-Reply-To: <4A9C86AA.3020709@moosewise.com> References: <4A9C86AA.3020709@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0908312239j47694867i8c4f959327e1ea29@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187672 Lynda: As Bart says, it's a legal term or a cultural one that makes them "unforgivable" not a moral thing. It has long been my stance that evil is in the mind of the user, not the spell itself. And then there's another thing. Molly was fighting in a war against dark wizardry, protecting herself and more importantly others, her children especially, but others as well. And killing to protect others or for self defense is not murder. Lynda From Alorkin at msn.com Tue Sep 1 04:22:01 2009 From: Alorkin at msn.com (alorkin) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 04:22:01 -0000 Subject: In re: Chapdisc PS/SS 1 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187673 Questions: 1. Why do you think Dumbledore did not want to take away Harry's scar? He knew exactly what it was. It was Dumbledore, not Voldemort who was responsible for the Prophecy being enacted/activated. While he claims in book five that he had little faith in divination, I believe he saw a potential way to end the conflict that wouldn't cost him too much. I believe, given his amoral attitude *as shown in canon*, that he was more than willing to sacrifice anybody to end Riddle. 2. Why do you think Dumbledore just left Harry with a note, instead of actually talking to the Dursleys? Again. He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew of Petunia's antipathy top magic. He left Harry on a doorstep in the middle of the night...in the first part of November, because he knew that Petunia would refuse to take the boy in. He stated in Book five: "Harry, when you arrived here five years ago, alive and whole as I had planned and intended, well not quite whole. I knew you had suffered. I knew when I placed you on your aunt's doorstep you had ten long and difficult years ahead of you..." Dumbledore needed a martyr. He knew he was incapable of destroying Voldemort on his own and so he needed someone who could. Moreover, he needed a totally loyal minion who saw hi in the light of an archangel, and who would be willing to sacrifice himself. In the military recruits are first insulted, humiliated, beaten on occasion and worked until they drop, in order to destroy any individuality they might posses. (we were in the Marine Corps.) It's called 'behavioral programming and is used in military's the world over. Sound familiar? 3. Why do you think Harry's scar was shaped like a lightning bolt? This takes some supposition. Dumbledore says Lily's sacrifice was what protected Harry, but didn't James sacrifice himself every bit as much to allow his wife and child to escape? Instead, I believe that Lily used some blood magic of her own. Sowilo, is the viking rune for 'power/protection/strength' What if she had prepared a ritual to protect Harry and her last act was to paint that rune on his forehead in her blood? Perhaps that rune, combined with her blood and her willing sacrifice was what it took to reflect death. 4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to stay a cat all day? Actually no, which leads me to another question. Why was she there at all? Why wiukd she be watching the Dursleys? There would have been no reason for her to watch one muggle family over another. According to her, she'd been sitting on a stone fence *all day*. Why? The wizards were making fools of themselves *all day* which supposes that they knew that Voldemort was gone. (One even addressed Vernon directly telling him, that he should celebrate as well.) That indicates that a time period of not less that 23 hours passed between the time Hagrid ostensibly took Harry out of the house in Godric's Hollow, and the time he delivered him to Privet Drive. So: Question 5: What happened to that missing day? Alorkin From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 13:29:39 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 13:29:39 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: <407C6C53-26A5-4477-9EA8-D7AF96028FFD@acsalaska.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187674 > > 5. Please feel free to add your own question. > > Why did Dumbledore withhold so much information from Professor > McGonagall. She is his second in command and, should something > happen to him, the most likely person to be able to continue with his > plan. Why didn't he tell her more? Zara: In my opinion, we get our answer in DH, "The Prince's Tale". Albus does select someone who will help him to protect Harry from Voldemort and carry out his plans, but it is not Minerva, it is Severus. Not that her role is negligible. She steps up into the role of Headmistress in DH and leads the defense of Hogwarts against Voldemort's forces in the final battle. In my opinion, a task better suited to her forceful, open personality than carrying out Albus's secret plans. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 14:03:35 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 14:03:35 -0000 Subject: Curse that killed Bellatrix In-Reply-To: <4A9C86AA.3020709@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187675 sartoris22 wrote: > > Like Ikotur, I wondered if Molly used the killing curse. I hoped that she didn't because it splits the soul and is punishable by imprisonment in Azkaban. Bart replied: > It's not the AK spell; it's murder that splits the soul. And the soul CAN heal. And, effectively speaking, there was no ministry when Molly cast the spell. Note that even the ministry played fast and loose with it; they allowed Barty/Crouch to use it on a spider as a demonstration to his class. > Carol responds: I don't think that the Ministry knew what "Moody" was doing. In fact, I'm not even sure that he had Dumbledore's permission to teach those curses (despite claiming that he did), though I think the last is more likely than I did before reading the revelations about Dumbledore's manipulativeness in DH. Other than that, I agree with your post. Molly's action wasn't illegal at the time regardless of the spell she cast, and her killing of Bellatrix wasn't murder. *Somebody* had to do it, just as somebody (Harry) had to kill Voldemort (or, at least, make sure that he died). For at least two books, Harry talks about killing him. And I'm pretty sure that even if he'd cast Avada Kedavra himself rather than casting an Expelliarmus that deflected LV's AK, his soul would not have been split. Carol, glad that Harry didn't have to cast an AK regardless From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 14:46:06 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 14:46:06 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "trianarose" wrote: > > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone > > Chapter One, The Boy Who Lived > Carol: I'm answering these questions without having read anyone else's responses. I'll come back later and respond to the responses if I find anything interesting. > 1. Why do you think Dumbledore did not want to take away Harry's scar? Carol responds: Because, despite his apparent skepticism regarding the Prophecy, he believes that Harry is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" because the Dark Lord has "marked him as his equal" via the scar. He may not yet suspect that the scar contains a soul bit, but he knows that it marks the spot where the curse was deflected (or the AK burst out of Harry), and he may suspect that it gives Harry powers that no one else has, powers specifically related to Voldemort. > 2. Why do you think Dumbledore just left Harry with a note, instead of actually talking to the Dursleys? Carol responds: Because Uncle Vernon would have shouted him off the premises and Aunt Petunia would have screamed and slammed the door in his face. This way, Petunia is confronted by a sleeping baby instead of a flamboyantly dressed old wizard. She would see the note and her curiosity would be aroused. Also, what's left of her compassion and her love for her sister, or her conscience, would force her to take in the baby, creating a binding magical contract. (Of course, if Vernon had found the baby, matters might have been different. DD might have had Mrs. Figg watching just to be sure.) > 3. Why do you think Harry's scar was shaped like a lightning bolt? Carol responds: I used to think that it resembled an Eihwaz rune (protection--also associated with the yew tree and therefore with LV's wand), but now I think (thanks to JKr's interviews and the absence of any follow up to Hermione's remarks about Eihwaz and Ehwaz)that it's just a "cool" and easily distinguishable shape. Also, if the AK spell entered his skin (magically prevented from entering his skull and killing him by Lily's sacrifice), it would probably have created a jagged cut rather than a smooth one as it flew out again. > 4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to stay a cat all day? Carol responds: If she knew that Hagrid and DD were coming at midnight rather than during the day, she should have stayed at Hogwarts and taught her classes. Which takes us back to the "missing twenty-four hours" recently discussed on the Movie List. How did McG even know that Hagrid would be there since he apparently didn't return to Hogwarts? (I've concluded that JKR can reason from A to B but not from B to C--anyone who's read "The Daughter of Time" should recognize the allusion.) Carol, curious to read other people's responses to these questions From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Sep 1 14:55:17 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:55:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187677 In a message dated 9/1/2009 8:31:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time, zgirnius at yahoo.com writes: Albus does select someone who will help him to protect Harry from Voldemort and carry out his plans, but it is not Minerva, it is Severus. Not that her role is negligible. She steps up into the role of Headmistress in DH and leads the defense of Hogwarts against Voldemort's forces in the final battle. In my opinion, a task better suited to her forceful, open personality than carrying out Albus's secret plans. True, but even then he didn't confide all in Snape. If DD had been killed prior to 6th year I think he would have been trusting to his protrait self to instruct the new head mistress (I'm presuming it would have been McGonagall prior to HBP that is.) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Sep 1 14:59:37 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:59:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187678 In a message dated 9/1/2009 9:47:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: If she knew that Hagrid and DD were coming at midnight rather than during the day, she should have stayed at Hogwarts and taught her classes. ************* I suspect that the students were given a holiday in celebration of Voldemort's defeat. Rather like the cancellation of exams at the end of COS "as a school treat." Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 15:08:44 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:08:44 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187679 > Melissa: > > True, but even then he didn't confide all in Snape. If DD had been killed > prior to 6th year I think he would have been trusting to his protrait self > to instruct the new head mistress (I'm presuming it would have been > McGonagall prior to HBP that is.) Zara: He did not confide all at the time of the scene I mentioned (right after the Potters died), but we should also keep in mind that "all" was a lot less back then, than it was by the time of HBP. It is my understanding, for example, that Albus only got the idea of hunting Horcruxes after CoS. And he only got the idea for how to remove the soul bit form Harry at the end of GoF (because that idea would not have worked before Voldemort took Harry's blood). But he did confide to Snape that Voldemort would be back and Harry would be in danger from him. I think Albus considered the Horcrux secret so dangerous he did not want to confide it to *anyone*, and planned to eliminate them himself. Snape saved him from his overconfidence, but that near-death in HBP persuaded him that he must share the secret with someone, and he chose Harry. (And Snape, for the second part of the problem, the soul bit in Harry himself). From jnoyl at aim.com Tue Sep 1 11:35:24 2009 From: jnoyl at aim.com (JLyon) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 04:35:24 -0700 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187680 <4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to stay a cat all day? Why does Bumbles seem surprised to see McG? Why was McG there unless Bumbles told her? Why is McG always such a Bumble sycophant, even knowing how bad the Dursleys are? Why does McG not question Bumble's kidnapping of Harry and dropping him off on a doorstep at midnight in November? Why doesn't McG ask if Pomphrey has examined Harry? Why does Sirius actually bow down to Bumbles and let Hagrid take him? Why doesn't anyone show Harry any compassion rather than simply kissing and licking Bumble's bony little ass? Right from this point, I always distrusted Bumbles and considered him either evil or suffering dementia? Of course, almost all "Merlin- like" characters seem to do the stupidest things and get innocents involved in things they need not. JLyon From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 16:55:44 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:55:44 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "trianarose" wrote: > > Welcome to the PS/SS chapter discussions! > Some questions to think about: > > 1. Why do you think Dumbledore did not want to take away Harry's scar? Alla: I do wonder in light of DH if this is not a hint that yes, Dumbledore was perfectly aware what Harry's scar is right away. > 2. Why do you think Dumbledore just left Harry with a note, instead of > actually talking to the Dursleys? Alla: Heh, I actually tried to stay away from answering this chapter but lost this battle with myself lol. I tried to stay away because this chapter is now one of those, please let's strangle Dumbledore and let him die a horrible death chapters for me. And of course this would go into one of my Dumbledore's rants which you guys read many times heh. So I will try to be short at least :) Dumbledore left Harry with a note instead of actually talking to the Dursleys because he is control freak and manipulator. I can't believe that he would not even entertain a possibility that oh, I don't know, maybe just maybe Dursleys will refuse to take Harry in. Oh dear, what would have been an expression on Dumbledore's face if say letter to Harry returned with some sort of magical note - the adressee does not live there. And Dursleys dropped Harry in the orphanage and forgot all about him. So, yeah I think it makes so much more sense to actually talk to people whom you, I don't know want to take the little one in. Do not get me wrong, I despise Dursleys and how they treated Harry, but Dumbledore just left a child there without a word. Eh must stop now. > 3. Why do you think Harry's scar was shaped like a lightning bolt? Alla: I think it was just an accident or if we look from outside the story, I will speculate that JKR just thought it would look cool. > 4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to stay a cat > all day? Alla: I think and again it is just a speculation that McGonagall stayed a cat because she did not trust herself to not come out and slap Dursleys across the face, otherwise I just do not know. > > 5. Please feel free to add your own question. > Alla: What does the conversation between Vernon and Petunia tells you about the dynamics in Dursleys' household? Why does Vernon refer to Harry as Howard? Is it because he heard Hogwarts at some points and this rhymes with this word somewhat and this is what he remembered? Or is it because it is just another variety of nasty common name for Vernon? Thank you for the summary and questions ! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 19:22:48 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:22:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187682 Zara: He did not confide all at the time of the scene I mentioned (right after the Potters died), but we should also keep in mind that "all" was a lot less back then, than it was by the time of HBP. It is my understanding, for example, that Albus only got the idea of hunting Horcruxes after CoS. Alla: I do want to agree with this, I do. Do you think the line about scars coming handy was just a throwaway line? I mean I can see a possibility, sure, I always try to give JKR benefit of the doubt that a lot of the story was thought out in advance, but really she could not even be sure that the first book will sell, maybe she did not even think about Harry scar being a horcrux in the first book. Having said it, I think that this is a main storyline (Harry Voldemort story) and I still think that at least main storyline was thought out in advance. Oh wait, wait, wait, maybe I misunderstood you? Are you just saying that Dumbledore thought that the destruction of horcruxes is possible only after CoS? Do you think that DD knew that Harry had a horcrux in him right away? Zara: And he only got the idea for how to remove the soul bit form Harry at the end of GoF (because that idea would not have worked before Voldemort took Harry's blood). But he did confide to Snape that Voldemort would be back and Harry would be in danger from him. Alla: Really want to agree with it too Zara: I think Albus considered the Horcrux secret so dangerous he did not want to confide it to *anyone*, and planned to eliminate them himself. Alla: On this you get no argument from me lol. Jlyon: Why does Bumbles seem surprised to see McG? Why was McG there unless Bumbles told her? Why is McG always such a Bumble sycophant, even knowing how bad the Dursleys are? Why does McG not question Bumble's kidnapping of Harry and dropping him off on a doorstep at midnight in November? Why doesn't McG ask if Pomphrey has examined Harry? Why does Sirius actually bow down to Bumbles and let Hagrid take him? Why doesn't anyone show Harry any compassion rather than simply kissing and licking Bumble's bony little ass? Alla: When I read this chapter for the first time ever(and please please do not think that I am putting down your reading, for the most part I do share your thoughts about Dumbledore, I do not go that far, but I am there pretty much) it was with the feeling of childlike delight and wonder. You know, a wizard and a cat leaving a boy for the new life after losing his parents, while there are wizards everywhere interacting with our world of normalcy, Dursley's world too. Again, do not get me wrong, for me this reading is gone forever. All I can think when I read this chapter is Harry's "she never loved me" to Dumbledore in their talk in OOP. And when I read Dumbledore's arrogant this is a best place for him, I want him to suffer long and painful punishment. But I think that JKR wanted to show magic coming to us and living among us if that makes sense. I wish I could get this reading back, because this is how I felt when I first read this chapter, funnily, maybe because this was the beginning I do remember my first reaction. Jlyon: Of course, almost all "Merlin- like" characters seem to do the stupidest things and get innocents involved in things they need not. Alla: Well, no, not all of them thank goodness! There is always general Iroh from Avatar, who teaches instead of manipulates and just loves the child for himself instead of thinking of him as a puppet (of course Zuko is not a chosen one, but he is very important and I can't count how many times I thought that Dumbledore should have taken lessons from Iroh of what it means to be loving mentor). However I do agree with you that a lot of Merlin like characters do stuff like this and maybe this is all there is to it. I guess I did expect Dumbledore to be a little bit different in this regard. And gasp, maybe even not die. I do give JKR credit though for is a really good writer and I thought that she portrayed Dumbledore very very consistently, IMO as a man who has in mind only one goal (good goal of course), who thinks that everybody else around them is sheep and he, only he knows better, as a man who thinks that his intellectual brilliance allows him to decide the fates of those around him. And then this man finds himself to be charmed by a boy, whom he plans to sacrifice for slaughter. I guess I always wanted Dumbledore to be more like Iroh, even before I saw the Avatar last year. Oh well. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Sep 1 19:38:08 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:38:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187683 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JLyon wrote: > > <4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to > stay a cat > all day? JLyon: > Why is McG always such a Bumble sycophant, even > knowing how bad the Dursleys are? Geoff: I'm not sure she is. She does argue with him about his actions before deciding to accept his view that Harry needs to be kept away from potential fame. (Chapter 1, pp.15-16 UK edition) JLyon: > Why doesn't McG ask if Pomphrey has examined Harry? Geoff: Seeing that Hagrid has just brought Harry straight in from Godric's Hollow, Madam Pomfrey hasn't had an opportunity to be anywhere near Harry. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 20:04:13 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 20:04:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > How did McG even know that Hagrid would be there since he > apparently didn't return to Hogwarts? zanooda: According to McGonagall, it was Hagrid who told her that DD will come to the Privet Drive: "'Hagrid's late. I suppose it was he who told you I'd be here, by the way?' - 'Yes'". She was waiting not for Hagrid, but for DD. She probably knew that Hagrid was also supposed to come, but she didn't even know why. She also only knew the address, not that Harry's relatives lived there, and she didn't seem to know when exactly to expect DD. This is all a little confusing to me, I must say :-). > Alla wrote: > Why does Vernon refer to Harry as Howard? Is it because > he heard Hogwarts at some points and this rhymes with > this word somewhat and this is what he remembered? zanooda: I believe he was just naming other names that start with an "H", because earlier in the chapter, before "Howard", he also thinks of "Harvey" and "Harold" :-). From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 2 00:25:48 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:25:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187685 Pippin: > > Dumbledore left Harry with a note instead of actually talking to the Dursleys because he is control freak and manipulator. I can't believe that he would not even entertain a possibility that oh, I don't know, maybe just maybe Dursleys will refuse to take Harry in. Pippin: How would it make Dumbledore any less a control freak and a manipulator if he spoke to the Dursleys in person? He certainly pushes them around in HBP. But JKR wants to keep the blood protection a secret from the reader while revealing it to Petunia, and Dumbledore does not want McGonagall or Hagrid to know about it either. Any discussion might be overheard, as Dumbledore knows all too well. I'm not sure what you're getting at here, though. If the Dursleys wouldn't take Harry in of their own choice, then there'd be no magical protection, so Dumbledore had to give them the opportunity to refuse, like it or not. As we know now, Petunia was perfectly capable of informing Dumbledore by Muggle post if she decided not to take Harry in. If the Dursleys dumped Harry in an orphanage or anywhere else, Dumbledore would be able to find him as easily as Hagrid found him in the hut on the rock. Harry is evidently not unplottable. > > 4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to stay a cat all day? Pippin: A stranger hanging around a suburban house all day would attract a lot more attention and suspicion than a cat. Pippin adding her thanks for the summary and questions From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 01:04:14 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:04:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187686 Alla: > > Dumbledore left Harry with a note instead of actually talking to the Dursleys because he is control freak and manipulator. I can't believe that he would not even entertain a possibility that oh, I don't know, maybe just maybe Dursleys will refuse to take Harry in. > > Pippin: > How would it make Dumbledore any less a control freak and a manipulator if he spoke to the Dursleys in person? He certainly pushes them around in HBP. But JKR wants to keep the blood protection a secret from the reader while revealing it to Petunia, and Dumbledore does not want McGonagall or Hagrid to know about it either. Any discussion might be overheard, as Dumbledore knows all too well. Alla: I will concede I used the wrong words, I mean I do think that Dumbledore is a control freak and manipulator, but the answer to this question should have been that Dumbledore left Harry with a note because he is incredibly arrogant and is just absolutely sure that people will do as he says or thinks people should behave. You are right, it does not make Dumbledore any less control freak and manipulator if he spoke to Dursleys in person, what it would have made him though IMO is to put it simply - polite man, who must have known what a huge favor he must have asked of Dursleys, who eh "loved" Lily and her family oh so much and I would imagine were so delightfully "happy" to find a child on their doorsteps. Again, do I think the fact that Dumbledore would have **have to** ask Dursleys even beg to take Harry in is horrifying? Yes, I do, however this is a set of facts Dumbledore has to deal with. So anyway, enjoyed as I did Dumbledore putting Dursleys in his place in HBP, I have to say that he had some nerve... As to JKR wanting to keep blood protection a secret? Eh I think it cold have been easily done by showing Dumbledore opening Dursleys' door and coming to talk to them. Who says readers just have to overhear that conversation before time for us comes to learn all the facts? Pippin: > I'm not sure what you're getting at here, though. If the Dursleys wouldn't take Harry in of their own choice, then there'd be no magical protection, so Dumbledore had to give them the opportunity to refuse, like it or not. Alla: Of course! It is just I think that by leaving Harry there instead of talking to them he gave them less opportunity to refuse. Pippin: As we know now, Petunia was perfectly capable of informing Dumbledore by Muggle post if she decided not to take Harry in. Alla: She was capable and she deemed it necessary are IMO are completely different things. I am just amazed at Dumbledore's easy dismissal of possibility that she would have done just that, not notifying him. Pippin: > If the Dursleys dumped Harry in an orphanage or anywhere else, Dumbledore would be able to find him as easily as Hagrid found him in the hut on the rock. Harry is evidently not unplottable. Alla: And if Petunia did not notify Dumbledore that she shipped Harry off to orphanage, he would have known that how? Maybe letter would have found him eleven years later, if he would not have died or seriously hurt himself from another flare of instantaneous magic. I mean, I wonder did Dumbledore ever think how lucky he is that Harry was not badly hurt after him appearing on the roof or other stunts like that? After all it is not like anybody was, you know, checking on himj. JMO, Alla From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Sep 2 01:56:01 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:56:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187687 In a message dated 9/1/2009 8:04:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: And if Petunia did not notify Dumbledore that she shipped Harry off to orphanage, he would have known that how? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most likely Mrs. Figg would have told him. (I think that part of the delay in getting Harry to Privet Drive was having to get Mrs Figg into place.) The Dursleys may or may not have let any of their neighbors know that a baby was abandoned on their front stoop but Mrs Figg would have been on the look out for a baby. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bobbarber26 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 1 00:27:19 2009 From: bobbarber26 at yahoo.com (robert cox) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prophecy / Umbridge's quill and Harry's fist / Dementors / Sectumsempra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <429575.76057.qm@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187688 > Carol wrote in : > << How would anyone except the students (only two that we know of, Harry and Lee Jordan) know about the quill that used their own blood to write lines? >> > catlady_de_los_ angeles: > ... it seems to me that Lee Jordan is more outgoing and less secretive than Harry. Even if he and the Twins keep some secrets from each other, I don't know a reason why he wouldn't tell Fred and George, and maybe a number of lesser friends, about Umbridge's quill. > > Carol wrote in : > << the raised fist is just one more instance of the miscommunication motif that appears in all the books >> > catlady_de_los_ angeles: > It never occurred to me as a reader that Scrimgeour didn't correctly understand Harry's fist, until you said so. If she intended that Scrimgeour understood, as does the reader, that Harry's fist meant: "Remember what Umbridge did to me", then we allow as how Scrimgeour somehow knew about Umbridge's quill and kept her on anyway. I don't think it's so hard to believe that word got around > starting from Lee Jordan. ? Bob: If you all check the DH and HBP, you will see that the scar Harry hands still stands out and then really stands out when he is angry and has balled his hand up.? Also a lot of students and teachers must have seen Harry's hand; I think that JKR wants the reader to see and think in some cases for themselves to add to the story.? Don't forget that like school today the true and stories of teachers and followers students get told and other heard and talked about. And?OTP does state that?Umbridge did punish other students (lets face it, the woman hates kids and anyone that does not agree with her and she trusts no one). Also Harry did not tell anyone while she was in power because he did not want to cause trouble for his teachers but after she was dismissed I bet that there was a rush to tell the teachers by all how were punished. From malfoydancing at gmail.com Tue Sep 1 18:21:57 2009 From: malfoydancing at gmail.com (malfoydancing at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 19:21:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71C86314-A9A7-46B7-BCCB-ED60F551DB0C@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187689 >> alla: >> Is Snape's reputation with the DEs one of being _capable_, or has he >> cultivated a reputation of being rather incompetent in managing >> destruction? The latter would make sense (if not for Snape's ego), >> but Voldemort has a high opinion of him. > > Zara: > I would say the evidence favors the view that other DEs would have > regarded Snape as more than merely competent at the Dark Arts/ > duelling. Consider for example their reaction to his appearance on > the Tower in HBP: > >> HBP: >> Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly >> out of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. >> Even the werewolf seemed cowed. alla: I'm very intrigued as to how he has managed this without doing any real harm. I suppose Bellatrix questions him to *some* extent in HP6, and most death eaters are protrayed as not very intelligent, but it's quite a feat. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Sep 2 06:34:30 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 06:34:30 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187690 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at ... wrote: Melissa; > Most likely Mrs. Figg would have told him. (I think that part of the delay > in getting Harry to Privet Drive was having to get Mrs Figg into place.) Geoff: Surely Mrs.Figg was already there? The need for Harry to go to the Dursleys wasn't something that was planned. It came out of the blue. Mrs.Figg, as a Squib, couldn't be installed in a suburban English road at such short notice. There wouldn't be a property available in the time frame. And you could hardly do a "Grimmauld Place" and insert a magical house into the scenery. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Sep 2 07:10:01 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 03:10:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187691 In a message dated 9/2/2009 1:35:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time, gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk writes: Surely Mrs.Figg was already there? The need for Harry to go to the Dursleys wasn't something that was planned. It came out of the blue. Mrs.Figg, as a Squib, couldn't be installed in a suburban English road at such short notice. There wouldn't be a property available in the time frame. And you could hardly do a "Grimmauld Place" and insert a magical house into the scenery. Exactly. It wasn't planned hence the need to plant her in the area or at the very least to set the magical wheels in motion to move her to the area quickly. (Perhaps some couple suddenly "decided" to retire to Australia or New Zealand ala the Grangers). I just find that more believable than the coincidence of a squib happening to live a few streets down from the Dursleys. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Sep 2 11:52:52 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:52:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at ... wrote: Geoff; > Surely Mrs.Figg was already there? > The need for Harry to go to the Dursleys wasn't something that was > planned. It came out of the blue. Mrs.Figg, as a Squib, couldn't be > installed in a suburban English road at such short notice. There wouldn't > be a property available in the time frame. And you could hardly do a > "Grimmauld Place" and insert a magical house into the scenery. Melissa: > Exactly. It wasn't planned hence the need to plant her in the area or at > the very least to set the magical wheels in motion to move her to the area > quickly. (Perhaps some couple suddenly "decided" to retire to Australia or > New Zealand ala the Grangers). I just find that more believable than the > coincidence of a squib happening to live a few streets down from the Dursleys. Geoff: Well, we must agree to disagree on that one. I suspect that JKR may not have thought that one through. PS Can you put your name at the beginning of your reply. Otherwise, two different responses can initially appear to be from the same person. From loptwyn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 14:03:57 2009 From: loptwyn at yahoo.com (loptwyn) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:03:57 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187693 > > > 4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to stay a cat all day? > > Pippin: > A stranger hanging around a suburban house all day would attract a lot more attention and suspicion than a cat. Mad Alice: Especially in a neighborhood like Privet Drive, where anything the least bit out of the ordinary was probably grounds for suspicion (and disapproval!) It also might be more comfortable to sit on a wall all day as a cat than as a witch in her late middle age (I know I would find it so...) >:> From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 2 14:28:22 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:28:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187694 > Alla: > > > Again, do I think the fact that Dumbledore would have **have to** ask Dursleys even beg to take Harry in is horrifying? Yes, I do, however this is a set of facts Dumbledore has to deal with. > ... Pippin: I think he does deal with it. Not that he isn't arrogant -- heck, it's arrogant to oppose Voldemort at all. But the letter allows him to conceal his feelings and affect a casual air about a matter of desperate importance to him, both for Harry's sake and for the sake of Dumbledore's plans. This is Petunia we're talking about. If she knew how much it mattered to Dumbledore that she take Harry in, she'd have said no. He's the one who turned her down when she begged him to let her go to Hogwarts. She wouldn't pass up a chance to spite him for all the gold in Gringotts, IMO. When Dumbledore visits the Dursleys in HBP, he deals with the matter of Harry continuing to stay with them until the age of 17 as if it were an afterthought, and yet it has to be the only real reason he's there. He acts as if he's angry only because the Dursleys ignored his wishes -- too bad Harry suffered but at least he hasn't suffered as much as Dudley. Dumbledore is not about to let the Dursleys know how much he cares personally for Harry, for the exact same reasons he didn't want Voldemort to know. It would give them a power over him he doesn't want them to have. > Pippin: > > If the Dursleys dumped Harry in an orphanage or anywhere else, Dumbledore would be able to find him as easily as Hagrid found him in the hut on the rock. Harry is evidently not unplottable. > > > Alla: > > And if Petunia did not notify Dumbledore that she shipped Harry off to orphanage, he would have known that how? Pippin: The spell of protection only lasts as long as Harry can call Privet Drive his home. Dumbledore would know if it was broken, IMO. The Ministry was monitoring the house too, and they seem to know whether Harry is there or not pretty quick. As far as Harry hurting himself by accidental magic, that could happen anywhere. It would be detected through the trace. Wizards don't need to check in person for that. It's true wizards tend to overlook the possibility of non-magical mishaps and attacks, but I think that's because they are truly rare. Ariana's case was so unusual that no one ever suspected what had really happened to her. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 15:55:30 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 15:55:30 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <71C86314-A9A7-46B7-BCCB-ED60F551DB0C@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187695 alla (malfoydancing) wrote: > > I'm very intrigued as to how he has managed this without doing any real harm. I suppose Bellatrix questions him to *some* extent in HP6, and most death eaters are protrayed as not very intelligent, but it's quite a feat. > Carol responds: It's something about his personality, IMO. Snape has the gift of silencing a group of students just by walking into a room. We see him easily intimidating Wormtail just through sarcasm. Even the proud and arrogant Narcissa (rightly) thinks he's powerful and influential; we don't see her treating anyone else with such deference (or tearfully begging for anyone else's help). Even before he "murders" DD, he has apparently taken Lucius Malfoy's place as Voldemort's right-hand man (as we see from Draco's jealous resentment and his assumption that Snape wants to steal his glory), sufficient reason in itself for other (real) DEs to fear him--if only because they fear antagonizing LV by opposing his new favorite. And he knows how to manipulate the DEs, using reason they'll respond to (the Aurors will arrive soon and "Potter is for the Dark Lord")) to get them to leave the Hogwarts grounds and stop Crucioing Harry, respectively. (Obviously, he can't give his real reason--he's protecting Harry and the other students.) Snape is not only clever and cunning, labels given him by an enemy (Sirius Black), but extremely intelligent. His skills as a spy (or counterspy) make him (seemingly) valuable to Voldemort. His skills as spy, actor, and Occlumens make him indispensable to Dumbledore. Of course, the other DEs are afraid of him. Add to the traits I've already listed his reputation (known to Avery and Mulciber from their school days and surely known to the other DEs through them if not through Snape himself) as a spell inventor (especially if they know about Sectumsempra) and his knowledge of Dark magic, and it's not surprising that an exceptionally angry Snape (who knows that he's going to have to kill DD or die from breaking the Unbreakable Vow) can cow them with a glance. We know that he never killed anyone before DD. That's clear from his fear of splitting his soul and DD's question, "How many people have you watched die, Severus?" as opposed to "How many people have you killed?" We never see him cast a Crucio or an Imperius Curse, either. He doesn't need to. Unless you're Dumbledore or Voldemort (or the perennially rash Sirius Black after both he and Snape are members of the Order), you don't cross Snape or argue with him. Carol, who thinks that we know what Snape did as a DE (he was a spy and a very valuable one) and that we need not assume that he committed any worse crimes off page than the one he repents for the rest of his life, reporting the Prophecy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 2 16:14:17 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:14:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187696 Alla wrote: > > > > > > Again, do I think the fact that Dumbledore would have **have to** ask Dursleys even beg to take Harry in is horrifying? Yes, I do, however this is a set of facts Dumbledore has to deal with. > > ... > Pippin responded: > > I think he does deal with it. Not that he isn't arrogant -- heck, it's arrogant to oppose Voldemort at all. But the letter allows him to conceal his feelings and affect a casual air about a matter of desperate importance to him, both for Harry's sake and for the sake of Dumbledore's plans. > > This is Petunia we're talking about. If she knew how much it mattered to Dumbledore that she take Harry in, she'd have said no. He's the one who turned her down when she begged him to let her go to Hogwarts. She wouldn't pass up a chance to spite him for all the gold in Gringotts, IMO. Carol adds: Not to mention the desperate importance of providing Harry the protection that he can get only through Lily's "blood." Uncaptured DEs are still on the loose, and DD thinks that Harry's godfather, Sirius Black, who has not yet been arrested ("No trouble, was there?" DD says when he learns that Black has been to Godric's Hollow), betrayed the Potters to their deaths. It's of the utmost importance, DD thinks, to make sure that he doesn't--and if that means imposing on the Dursleys, so be it. Even if Black weren't the suspected traitor, his rashness would make him an unsafe guardian (immediately demonstrated by his going after Wormtail and getting himself arrested)--and, more important, Black, unlike Petunia, cannot provide Harry a home (away from DE pursuers and the WW in general) where Harry can be safe because of the blood protection. If Harry has to undergo deprivation (living conditions that many children from other countries or centuries routinely endured), if the Dursleys have to endure extra expenses and inconvenience, so be it. At least Harry will be safe (and unaware of his own importance). So, yes, DD is a manipulator. But he wants to make sure that Harry, who is surely "the one with the power," survives to confront Voldemort when the time comes. I don't think that DD yet knows about the soul bit in Harry's scar or that he's planning to raise Harry as "a pig to the slaughter." He just wants him safe and alive until he can train him himself. Carol, who really sees no alternative for DD (or Harry) under the circumstances From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 3 15:14:58 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:14:58 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187697 > Pippin: > > I think he does deal with it. Not that he isn't arrogant -- heck, it's arrogant to oppose Voldemort at all. But the letter allows him to conceal his feelings and affect a casual air about a matter of desperate importance to him, both for Harry's sake and for the sake of Dumbledore's plans. > > This is Petunia we're talking about. If she knew how much it mattered to Dumbledore that she take Harry in, she'd have said no. He's the one who turned her down when she begged him to let her go to Hogwarts. She wouldn't pass up a chance to spite him for all the gold in Gringotts, IMO. Alla: I see your point, sure. I just think that him being there in person would have been a better safeguard in case Petunia does refuse to take Harry in rather than him going to have to search orphanages after the fact (that is IF he learns about it soon enough). Pippin: > It's true wizards tend to overlook the possibility of non-magical mishaps and attacks, but I think that's because they are truly rare. Ariana's case was so unusual that no one ever suspected what had really happened to her. Alla: Apparently not so rare in Harry's case who spent " next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley". And it is so so easy to injure a baby even if another child has the best intentions in the world and just wants to play with him. And we know that Dudley did not have the best intentions in the world to put it mildly and somehow I doubt that Petunia stood nearby and told him to be careful. No, I maintain that Dumbledore got incredibly lucky with the help of deus ex machina that no serious injury occurred to Harry in Dudley's household. But the fact that JKR decided it must be so does not stop me from thinking that it was incredibly arrogant (and I leave aside all other names I want to call this action right now) of Dumbledore to just leave Harry there. But that leads me to an aside question about this sentence. Here is the whole sentence : "One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not knowing that he was special, not knowing he would be woken in a few hours' time by Mrs. Dudley's scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles, not that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley..." - p.17 Granted I have not reread PS in about a year, but I definitely do not remember thinking that hand in question was Harry's. Wierd that even now these little discoveries happen to me hehe. I thought it was either Petunia's or Dudley's lol, I do not know why I thought so. So the question is, was it just a baby grabbing a new piece of paper to play with or was it Harry recognizing Dumbledore's magical signature or something like that as something familiar to hold on to? I mean he is grabbing it while he is asleep. Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 3 22:30:35 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 22:30:35 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187698 > > Alla: > > I see your point, sure. I just think that him being there in person would have been a better safeguard in case Petunia does refuse to take Harry in rather than him going to have to search orphanages after the fact (that is IF he learns about it soon enough). > Pippin: ::shrug:: It wouldn't amount to much. Petunia could still throw Harry out as soon as Dumbledore left. > Alla: > No, I maintain that Dumbledore got incredibly lucky with the help of deus ex machina that no serious injury occurred to Harry in Dudley's household. Pippin: Dumbledore wasn't lucky at all -- if you mean he expected that Harry wouldn't be hurt and counted on luck to make it so. The light in Dumbledore's eyes goes right out, and he says in OOP that Harry arrived at Hogwarts in much better condition than he'd expected. He knew and accepted the risk that Harry would be damaged. He wasn't happy about it. Trusting to luck would have been trying some other method of keeping Voldemort off, all of which had failed 100% over the last ten years, and hoping that for some unknown reason one of them would work this time. That would be beyond reckless. That would be insane. *Harry* was lucky, of course. But if he wasn't, he'd have already been dead. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Sep 3 23:51:50 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 23:51:50 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187699 Alla: > But that leads me to an aside question about this sentence. Here is the whole sentence : > > "One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not knowing that he was special, not knowing he would be woken in a few hours' time by Mrs. Dudley's scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles, not that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley..." - p.17 snip > Alla: > So the question is, was it just a baby grabbing a new piece of paper to play with or was it Harry recognizing Dumbledore's magical signature or something like that as something familiar to hold on to? > > I mean he is grabbing it while he is asleep. Potioncat: Just to nitpick here--because we don't get much opportunity any more--the baby isn't grabbing the letter. The wording is, "...one small hand closed on the letter..." I think it's a child just holding onto something that's beside him. Perhaps Harry was used to going to sleep with a small toy or blanket. Maybe he was dreaming about the picture of himself on the broom. ;-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Sep 4 00:05:25 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 00:05:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187700 "trianarose" wrote: >> 1. Why do you think Dumbledore did not want to take away Harry's scar? Potioncat: I think he already expected the Prophecy to kick in. DD recognized the scar as the literal manifestation from "he will mark him as his equal." I don't know if he already suspected the scar carried magical properties of its own. This gives Harry two types of magic working for him--the ancient love magic that his mother set in place, and the magic LV accidentally gave him. DD may have suspected that much--the extra magic. > > 2. Why do you think Dumbledore just left Harry with a note, instead of actually talking to the Dursleys? Potioncat: The first time I read it, it reminded me of the stock "baby left on doorstep" so I didn't give it much thought. It was part of the other mysterious (then) happenings that were going on. Looking back now, I guess this is one of our first hints that DD doesn't give out much information. What a terrible way to tell someone her sister has been killed. How much did he put in the note? Did Petunia really know what she was agreeing to? Did he call upon her youthful desire to be a witch? > > 4. Do you think it was really necessary for Professor McGonagall to stay a cat all day? Potioncat: Yes, if the alternative was for her to hang around in her wizarding clothing all day. I think she was more comfortable as a cat in that setting. Besides, everybody wants to be a cat . Message #187671 Laura: > > Why did Dumbledore withhold so much information from Professor > McGonagall. She is his second in command and, should something > happen to him, the most likely person to be able to continue with his > plan. Why didn't he tell her more? Potioncat: Once upon a time, when we all thought DD was Father Christmas, God and Merlin all rolled into one, many of us became suspicious of Minerva. Certainly if DD didn't trust her, we shouldn't! There were lot's of ESE!McGongall posts. Now we know that DD doesn't tell much to anyone. However, I disagree that she is his second in command. She is his deputy headmistress at Hogwarts, but not in the OoP. Come to think of it, I don't think he ever has a second in command in his war against LV--and that was part of the problem. > Message #187681 Alla: > >What does the conversation between Vernon and Petunia tells you >about the dynamics in Dursleys' household? Why does Vernon refer to >Harry as Howard? Is it because he heard Hogwarts at some points and >this rhymes with this word somewhat and this is what he remembered? >Or is it because it is just another variety of nasty common name for >Vernon? Potioncat: Vernon knows that Lily and James are strange, but I wonder how much he really knew before Harry showed up. He didn't recognize the wizarding folk as such. We're told the Dursleys pretend Petunia doesn't have a sister. Yet, we know that Petunia sent Lily a vase for Christmas one year. Is Petunia secretly in touch with Lily? DD may have good reason to expect Petunia would be willing to take Harry. Back to the dynamics, it seems to me Petunia and Vernon take turns being the bossy one. Vernon often defers to her, but there are times that he seems to be the one in charge. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 4 02:09:01 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 02:09:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187701 > Alla: > > I see your point, sure. I just think that him being there in person would have been a better safeguard in case Petunia does refuse to take Harry in rather than him going to have to search orphanages after the fact (that is IF he learns about it soon enough). > Pippin: ::shrug:: It wouldn't amount to much. Petunia could still throw Harry out as soon as Dumbledore left. Alla: Eh, I meant better safeguard for Harry's life and safety, of course Petunia could still throw him out. But if Dumbledore was here, he could have at least taken Harry with him instead of Harry suffering in the orphanage and Dumbledore maybe finding him later. Pippin: Dumbledore wasn't lucky at all -- if you mean he expected that Harry wouldn't be hurt and counted on luck to make it so. The light in Dumbledore's eyes goes right out, and he says in OOP that Harry arrived at Hogwarts in much better condition than he'd expected. He knew and accepted the risk that Harry would be damaged. He wasn't happy about it. Alla: Yes, I know, his twinkle disappeared. I am afraid it does not count much for me. Well, if Dumbledore accepted the risk that Harry would be damaged but put him there anyway, I have several names I want to call him. Yeah, I know we have that mysterious blood protection, but then we are back to me really not seeing the benefits of that blood protection in the text, really not seeing that it was all worth it. I wonder where were those mysterious death eaters on the lose? All I needed was for example a glimpse of somebody of DE association looking for Harry in those early years and failing. Believe me, that would have gone a very long way of convincing me that what Dumbledore did to Harry was really worth it. And of course we are also back to Dumbledore not checking on Harry, which to me so much more not convincing that it could somehow hurt that stupid blood protection, not once before he comes to Hogwarts and oh do not get me started on his OOP speech. Really, Dumbledore, really? Not a pampered prince? Well, I guess everything is fine then. But if you are saying that Dumbledore knew and accepted the risk that Harry would be damaged, who would fulfill his precious prophecy then? Forget about Harry as human being, what about Dumbledore's plans? Because I am saying that Dumbledore got lucky that Harry was not really **badly** hurt from something that has nothing to do with Death Eaters. Are you saying that Dumbledore was ready for all that? Because from what I understand blood protection really does not make Harry immortal, but hey as I said, I consider the idea not to be very convincing except on symbolical level, so maybe I am wrong here. Pippin: > Trusting to luck would have been trying some other method of keeping Voldemort off, all of which had failed 100% over the last ten years, and hoping that for some unknown reason one of them would work this time. That would be beyond reckless. That would be insane. Alla: And of course we are really back to the argument about whether we had really **seen** any other method of keeping Voldemort's off besides raising a boy as pig for slaughter to do so. Maybe you could remind me of one of those methods, especially of what exactly Order was doing besides hoping that Harry would save them again? On one hand I feel weird arguing these things because again, really I do get that this is the genre of the hero saving their lazy asses with his friends. But since we are looking at the characters from within the story, I do think that it is a fair game to question their competency and attempt to find something else. And sometimes I do think that love books as I am, JKR's talk of subverting the genre was really quite an empty one, because as far as I can see she really followed the genre to boot. JMO, Alla From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Sep 4 06:28:27 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 02:28:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187702 In a message dated 9/2/2009 6:53:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk writes: Geoff: Well, we must agree to disagree on that one. I suspect that JKR may not have thought that one through. PS Can you put your name at the beginning of your reply. Otherwise, two different responses can initially appear to be from the same person. Melissa: Sure :-). There were several things that she: either did not think through or meant to address but didn?t or just flat out over looked. Just as well. If the books were perfect then I suspect conversation on the lists were have dried up long ago. Now to add to the questions for this chapter: Could ?Ted the newscaster" have really been Ted Tonks? Something about his reaction to the owls soaring around Britain made me think he had ?insider? knowledge. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Sep 4 14:38:39 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:38:39 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187703 > > Alla: > > Eh, I meant better safeguard for Harry's life and safety, of course Petunia could still throw him out. But if Dumbledore was here, he could have at least taken Harry with him instead of Harry suffering in the orphanage and Dumbledore maybe finding him later. Pippin: Suffering what? The standard of care in a modern British institution is higher than what Harry received at the Dursleys, I should hope. OTOH, if there are DE's so hot on the trail that they could find Harry before Dumbledore did, then it's the Dursleys or nowhere, and Dumbledore should optimize his actions towards persuading Petunia to take Harry in. Harry will be dead within days if she doesn't. > > Alla: > > Yes, I know, his twinkle disappeared. I am afraid it does not count much for me. Well, if Dumbledore accepted the risk that Harry would be damaged but put him there anyway, I have several names I want to call him. Pippin: You'd be happier if Dumbledore denied to himself that a risk was present? Exactly where in the books do we find a risk-free environment? Wait, there's one. King's Cross. Alla: > Yeah, I know we have that mysterious blood protection, but then we are back to me really not seeing the benefits of that blood protection in the text, really not seeing that it was all worth it. Pippin: You can't say a guardrail wasn't needed because no one ever ran into it. As long people avoided the cliff, it did its job. Voldemort says that he and his DE's cannot penetrate the protection at Privet Drive, not at least without the full power of the MOM. Was it truly impenetrable? Probably not, the point is, Voldemort thought it was. Dumbledore chose love magic because he knew that Voldemort didn't understand it and didn't want to. Maybe if he and his followers could have come to understand love magic, they'd have seen a way through it, but they wouldn't have been evil any more. Alla: > I wonder where were those mysterious death eaters on the lose? All I needed was for example a glimpse of somebody of DE association looking for Harry in those early years and failing. > Believe me, that would have gone a very long way of convincing me that what Dumbledore did to Harry was really worth it. Pippin: The attack on the Longbottoms, and the penetration of the Weasley household by Peter Pettigrew, shows what the DE's were capable of. Don't you think they'd have gone after Harry if they could? Alla: > But if you are saying that Dumbledore knew and accepted the risk that Harry would be damaged, who would fulfill his precious prophecy then? Pippin: The pampered princes of the book: Dudley, Draco, Sirius, James, even Dumbledore himself, are they not damaged? Are they not selfish and unthinkingly cruel? Harry, OTOH, is prone to depression and anger, but he generally is not selfish and at least he notices when he is being cruel. The point of the books, though, is that none of those conditions prevented people from fighting evil. You don't have to be a storybook good guy to do it. That's what is subversive of the genre, IMO. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 4 18:04:20 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:04:20 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187704 > > Alla: > > Eh, I meant better safeguard for Harry's life and safety, of course Petunia could still throw him out. But if Dumbledore was here, he could have at least taken Harry with him instead of Harry suffering in the orphanage and Dumbledore maybe finding him later. Pippin: Suffering what? The standard of care in a modern British institution is higher than what Harry received at the Dursleys, I should hope. Alla: I should hope so too. However the only orphanage in the fictional Britain that JKR let us observe (AFAIR) was the orphanage where young Tom spent his days and yes, I think that is considered suffering for Tom and for kids who suffered from him. And I am the last person to pity Tom Riddle. Yes, I know this was few decades ago in the books, but since we are not shown anything else, I would think it is a valid assumption to make that this is what life in the book orphanages is. Believe me, if this is not so, I think Harry would have been much better off in the good orphanage than with Dursleys. Pippin: You'd be happier if Dumbledore denied to himself that a risk was present? Exactly where in the books do we find a risk-free environment? Wait, there's one. King's Cross. Alla: So the choice is either Dursleys or Kings Cross? I just do not think so. But I had been through choices in the past and really do not want to recite them again. And I am just not convinced that Dumbledore considered all the risks and acted accordingly, that's all. So no, I would not be= happier if he denied to himself that a risk was present. I just think that he did not consider the enormity of the risk of placing Harry with Dursleys OR I can offer you this ? JKR did not convince me that Harry's sufferings with Dursleys was truly and really just for the reason of saving Harry's life. Because Dumbledore's "pampered prince" idiocy does not just go away, it pops up in OOP again and this "reason" I consider to be quite disgusting one. Hm, I am thinking now how much better I would have liked Dumbledore's OOP speech if it was shorter and basically said this : I am sorry Harry for placing you with Dursleys, I know I took the liberties that I would have never done under normal circumstances, I know I overridden what your parents wanted for you and took you away from your guardian and godfather. I did it for one very simple reason ? without me doing it you will be dead. I am sorry for all of that, but I am not sorry for wanting to keep you alive. Alla: > Yeah, I know we have that mysterious blood protection, but then we are back to me really not seeing the benefits of that blood protection in the text, really not seeing that it was all worth it. Pippin: You can't say a guardrail wasn't needed because no one ever ran into it. As long people avoided the cliff, it did its job. Voldemort says that he and his DE's cannot penetrate the protection at Privet Drive, not at least without the full power of the MOM. Alla: Yes I can if the guardrail causes the person who may or may not approach it pain and sufferings. So to think that it is worth it, I would like to be convinced that the person at least will be approaching it. Voldemort says that he and his DE cannot penetrate the protection? That's nice, really. However, I also see that a wizard approaches Harry quite freely when he is with Petunia of all people. She is the very person in whom Harry's mother blood dwells, isn't she? So, how the heck I am supposed to believe that DE cannot approach Harry if this guy can? And as I said, it also will be nice to see DE looking and failing to find him. I get what JKR was trying to do with blood protection, and really if either Dursleys were better people, OR if I thought that what Harry underwent through at Dursleys, thing like prodding and pinching, Dursley' hunting, trying to duck from Vernon hands and Petunia's pan, starvation, which I consider pure physical abuse, if I thought that these things could be just brushed aside, forget about absence of love, then I would have went easy on JKR with how convincing I wanted blood protection to be. But to me it is not so at all, I consider how Dudleys treated him to be horrible ( no, far from most horrible physical abuse, there is much worse of course but to me still abuse), I want to see extremely convincing explanation of why Harry was forced to undergo all that. Blood protection **would have** cut it for me if shown in better details, I would still have not excused Dumbledore for not checking on Harry and making Dursleys to lay off, but sure it is enough to place him there. "Pampered prince" just does not cut it for me at all. Oh, here is the famous example for you. Let's take Star Wars. I am not knowledgeable at all about huge Star Wars canon books, to warn you, I just love original movies and saw sequels. Ben placed Luc with his uncle, right? And he did it to save Luc from his father and because his mother asked him to, right? Sorry, I believe it was mentioned in the movie, but last time I watched it was couple years ago so I am not sure. Now, granted the analogy is not exact since Luc's uncle was not abusive, however, I think in a sense it holds because Luc is hidden from his destiny as well. So let's imagine that the uncle would have been much harsher or even abusive. Would I have blamed Ben for a **second** for him placing Luc there? Not in a million years. We are shown clearly that Emperor wants Luc on his side and Daddy dearest keeps trying to convert him even over the movies till the last minutes of course. Do you see? I totally see that the only thing that motivated Ben was to save Luc's life. The danger is clear to me, I am satisfied that Luc needed to be hidden and it truly was for his own good. Again, if Ben had other motivations in the books, I am not aware about them. Dumbledore on the other hand to me is not clear all. Pippin: The attack on the Longbottoms, and the penetration of the Weasley household by Peter Pettigrew, shows what the DE's were capable of. Don't you think they'd have gone after Harry if they could? Alla: I don't know Pippin. After Longbottom's attack they all seemed to be pretty scared to return to light ? be it for real or fake. Could they? It is possible, but I would not even go as far as to say that it was highly likely. IMO of course. Pippin: The pampered princes of the book: Dudley, Draco, Sirius, James, even Dumbledore himself, are they not damaged? Are they not selfish and unthinkingly cruel? Harry, OTOH, is prone to depression and anger, but he generally is not selfish and at least he notices when he is being cruel. Alla: And we are back to the arguments about child who is growing with loving parents or loving family does not have to equal growing up a pampered prince. Harry does not owe swat for the good qualities in his character to Dursleys as far as I am concerned. Pippin: The point of the books, though, is that none of those conditions prevented people from fighting evil. You don't have to be a storybook good guy to do it. That's what is subversive of the genre, IMO. Alla: I can produce rather long list of the fantasy writers where characters who are very far from being storybook good guys and fighting evil anyway. Here is what I consider to be subversive of the hero quest genre. How about in addition to the chosen one who has his own destiny we will watch another boy literally grow and look for his destiny, which is a part of the destiny of the chosen one? We will see this boy make his own mistakes and learn and make mistakes again and finally realize what it is that he truly wants to do in the world and to be in the world. How about the Chosen one actually not having ANY adult mentor in the timeline of what we see, but however really needing to learn some things and learning, truly learning it from his friends. And I do not mean to learn some general stuff from his sidekicks, like the necessity to laugh more or stuff like that, I mean some highly specialized knowledge without which Chosen one literally cannot proceed towards fulfilling his destiny. Needless to say it makes his friends to be so much better rounded characters. And how about the boy who is looking for his destiny from another side of the spectrum so to speak to have a mentor who really really loves this boy and really does not like where this boy is heading, but still letting him to get smacked and learn truly learn from his mistakes instead of manipulating him towards what the mentor thinks boy should be doing. And how about the novel idea of this mentor **not** dying and the boy still assumes central stage? And how about making the adults in this universe to be extremely believable, and not once feeling that they are waiting for the kids to rescue them, even though in essence kids indeed have to rescue them. Instead adults are fighting just as fiercely with the kids and if they are letting themselves to be arrested at the crucial moment knowing that kids need to do what they do, it feels extremely believable to me. Yeah, that to me is a development of the genre. Have I mentioned how much I love Avatar lately? This was not mean to put Harry Potter books down by the way. I would take Harry over Ang as character any time and I could do with less neat ending of Avatar, but the more I think about it, the more I think that the writers of that show were so much more consistent and ground breaking in so many ways. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 4 18:12:01 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:12:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187705 Alla: I don't know Pippin. After Longbottom's attack they all seemed to be pretty scared to return to light ? be it for real or fake. Alla: It was of course supposed to read "they all seemed to be pretty scared to do anything BUT return to light". Oy. From POWERBABE7 at aol.com Fri Sep 4 06:52:56 2009 From: POWERBABE7 at aol.com (Powerbabe7) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 23:52:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CEDB311-C68A-433C-9A70-049F80BD6109@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187706 Melissa: > Now to add to the questions for this chapter: > > Could Ted the newscaster have really been Ted Tonks? Something about > his reaction to the owls soaring around Britain made me think he had > insider's > knowledge. > Ooohh Ted is Ted Tonks? I love that theory. I'm going to read that part again. You may be right. Wasn't Ted a muggle? Gina From joeydebs at yahoo.com Fri Sep 4 19:03:00 2009 From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (joeydebs) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:03:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: <2CEDB311-C68A-433C-9A70-049F80BD6109@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187707 Gina: > Wasn't Ted a muggle? Joeydebs: I love the theory but no, he was a muggleborn wizard. From daveh47 at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 20:07:53 2009 From: daveh47 at gmail.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:07:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Curse that killed Bellatrix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4aa17439.161bf30a.28a6.4ec8@mx.google.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187708 Ikotur: >I just finished reading Deathly Hallows and was wondering what curse >killed Bellatrix that was cast by Molly. Certainly not Avada Kedavra? Unlike others here, I *don't* believe it was AK. From what we've seen of successful AK (e.g. against Frank Bryce in _GoF_) it appears to be instantaneous ("he was already dead before he hit the ground"). But with the curse that Bella used on Sirius, and which, in the name of poetic justice, I believe was then used by Molly on Bella, there is a moment during which the victim realizes what has happened before they expire: "For the tiniest space of time she knew what had happened, and then she toppled..." (_DH_, Ch. 36) Dave From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Sep 4 20:40:45 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:40:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: <2CEDB311-C68A-433C-9A70-049F80BD6109@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Powerbabe7 wrote: > Melissa: > > > Now to add to the questions for this chapter: > > > > Could Ted the newscaster have really been Ted Tonks? Something about > > his reaction to the owls soaring around Britain made me think he had > > insider's > > knowledge. Gina: > Ooohh Ted is Ted Tonks? I love that theory. I'm going to read that > part again. You may be right. Wasn't Ted a muggle? Geoff: I'm suspicious. I think that JKR just thought of the name. After all, Ted is not an unusual name. I well remember when we all got excited over Mark Evans in the first chapter of OOTP and there were thousands of words typed about how he could be a long-lost cousin of Harry's on Lily's side of the family until JKR threw a bucket of cold water on the idea and it was just a name she'd picked on. From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Fri Sep 4 20:39:32 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:39:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187710 > Pippin: > Suffering what? The standard of care in a modern British institution is higher > than what Harry received at the Dursleys, I should hope. > > Alla: > > I should hope so too. However the only orphanage in the fictional Britain that JKR let us observe (AFAIR) was the orphanage where young Tom spent his days and yes, I think that is considered suffering for Tom and for kids who suffered from him. And I am the last person to pity Tom Riddle. > > Yes, I know this was few decades ago in the books, but since we are not shown anything else, I would think it is a valid assumption to make that this is what life in the book orphanages is. > > Believe me, if this is not so, I think Harry would have been much better off in the good orphanage than with Dursleys. > zfshiruba: First I'd like to say that no matter what the circumstances, leaving a baby on a doorstep is unacceptable neglect! What if it had rained, and baby Harry had gotten sick. What if some random person walking around found him first? What if a wild animal such as a raccoon or a fox attacked him? Or for that matter a domestic animal? I've got a teething kitten who thinks everything that moves is his play toy. What if Harry had gotten rabies? What if there had been a kid like Dudley in the neighborhood? etc. Second, Does anyone know when the UK closed down the orphanages? I know that they're on the foster system now. Assuming there are still orphanages in HP's UK, I imagine Dumbledore would have some sort of bias against them/ be wary of kids coming from them, because of the last kid to come to Hogwarts from an orphanage: Tom Riddle. IMO, Dumbledore would prefer just about anywhere over an orphanage. > Pippin: > The pampered princes of the book: Dudley, Draco, Sirius, James, even Dumbledore > himself, are they not damaged? Are they not selfish and unthinkingly cruel? > Harry, OTOH, is prone to depression and anger, but he generally is not selfish > and at least he notices when he is being cruel. > > Alla: > > And we are back to the arguments about child who is growing with loving parents or loving family does not have to equal growing up a pampered prince. Harry does not owe swat for the good qualities in his character to Dursleys as far as I am concerned. zfshiruba: Sirius is not entirely a pampered prince. James is, but judging from the fact that Sirius had to run away from home, the way he hates Grimmauld, his behavior at school and frankly, his relationship with his mother's portrait: I would say that Sirius was, at the very least, subjected to extreme verbal abuse from his family starting the second they found out he was in Gryffindor. Sirius' selfishness and cruelty stems more from his hatred of everything his family was than pampered arrogance. I wouldn't qualify Dumbledore as a pampered prince either; Growing up in a home like his, even if he mostly avoided Ariana, does affect you. Speaking of hate, there is a cycle of abuse; Harry was abused, and honestly, it really could have gone either way; whether he ended up the way he is or he ended up like Tom Riddle or in a less extreme example Sirius: hating those who hated/hurt him. I'm not saying that every abused kid turns out to be an abuser, I'm just saying that it does happen. Also Pippin, Harry is not selfish enough! For an example of a hero who grew up in a perfectly loving environment, with a hidden destiny, without being entirely selfish and unthinkingly cruel: King Arthur. Wow, it can be done. You can have a normal childhood and still be a hero! Also, Neville is not a pampered prince; Ron is not a pampered prince; Hermione is not a pampered princess etc. There is middle ground! > Pippin: > The point of the books, though, is that none of those conditions prevented > people from fighting evil. You don't have to be a storybook good guy to do it. > That's what is subversive of the genre, IMO. > > Alla: > > I can produce rather long list of the fantasy writers where characters who are very far from being storybook good guys and fighting evil anyway. > zfshiruba: Yes, they're called antiheroes and no JKR did not invent them, and they aren't a new idea either! From randmath23 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 4 20:57:29 2009 From: randmath23 at yahoo.com (randmath23) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:57:29 -0000 Subject: Muggles married to a witch or a wizard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187711 randmth After reading all 7 of JKR's Harry Potter books, what prevents the muggle spouse from letting it slip about the magical world? From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Fri Sep 4 20:47:55 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:47:55 -0000 Subject: In re: Chapdisc PS/SS 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187712 > 2. Why do you think Dumbledore just left Harry with a note, > instead of actually talking to the Dursleys? > Alorkin wrote: > Dumbledore needed a martyr. He knew he was incapable of destroying Voldemort on his own and so he needed someone who could. Moreover, he needed a totally loyal minion who saw hi in the light of an archangel, and who would be willing to sacrifice himself. In the military recruits are first insulted, humiliated, beaten on occasion and worked until they drop, in order to destroy any individuality they might posses. (we were in the Marine Corps.) It's called 'behavioral programming and is used in military's the world over. Sound familiar? zfshiruba: Yes, which makes Harry a child soldier, which is one of many reasons I always want to kill Dumbledore myself by the end of Philosopher's Stone. > 3. Why do you think Harry's scar was shaped like a lightning bolt? > > alorkin: > This takes some supposition. Dumbledore says Lily's sacrifice was what protected Harry, but didn't James sacrifice himself every bit as much to allow his wife and child to escape? Instead, I believe that Lily used some blood magic of her own. Sowilo, is the viking rune for 'power/protection/strength' What if she had prepared a ritual to protect Harry and her last act was to paint that rune on his forehead in her blood? Perhaps that rune, combined with her blood and her willing sacrifice was what it took to reflect death. zfshiruba: Sowilo is also a sun rune; Harry is intricately connected to the sun in so many other ways (Harry Potter's Astrological Chart by Witherwings [Lexicon Essay]) It does seem fitting. From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 4 21:55:28 2009 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (mcrudele78) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 21:55:28 -0000 Subject: A Sirius Matter (was: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187713 > Carol: > Even if Black weren't the suspected traitor, his rashness > would make him an unsafe guardian (immediately demonstrated by > his going after Wormtail and getting himself arrested)-- Mike: Once more into the breach in defense of my good buddy Sirius. Sirius asks if he can take Harry, Hagrid says (paraphrasing) 'No, he has his orders to bring him to Dumbledore.' So Sirius is assured that Harry will be taken care of for the moment. Now, he has Wormtail out there, probably looking for a way or place to hide. Of all the people now alive on the planet, Sirius probably knows the most about Wormtail. He, like me, wouldn't trust that the Ministry or the Aurors could even find him. And Sirius *knows* he's a more powerful wizard than Peter, knows he can beat him if he needs to fight him. Just because Peter pulled off the escape of the century - up to that point - doesn't make Sirius's taking off after Peter a "rash" decision. In his shoes, it was the logical thing to do. When someone purposefully gets people (let alone your best friends) on your side of a war killed by aiding and abetting the enemy, you take the action necessary. And everyone from the Minitry on down acknowledges that this was a war. I think Sirius's actions were, far from being rash, perfectly reasonable. Should he maybe have told Dumbledore that Peter was the secret keeper and that he was going after him? Sure, hindsight being 20/20, that would have been the wisest choice. But he was ever so slightly distraught, I can forgive him for not thinking of this. And even if he had told DD, I still think it would have been the right thing for him to go after PP. Does that mean that Sirius is never rash or irresponsible? No, I take JKR's presentation of him to mean that he often was. But most of that occurs after Godric's Hollow, 13 years in Azkaban, and being cooped up in a house that he hated, screamed at by his mother's portrait, not allowed out to fight, etc. That might make me a little rash. But I also take Sirius's words about James growing up in his last years and after school as applying to himself too. Differing degrees, sure, but still maturing. And I find Sirius's demeanor, after all he's been through, to be an amazing accomplishment. > Carol, who really sees no alternative for DD (or Harry) > under the circumstances Mike: When you take into account the storyline requirements, I agree, Dumbledore had no choice but to drop Harry at the Dursleys. I will also agree with Alla and zfshiruba, it would have been nice if he'd at least waited around to ensure Harry got *inside* the house. This Dickensonian leaving the baby on the porch was a little trite, don't you think? Mike, still wondering what the note left with baby Harry said From bart at moosewise.com Fri Sep 4 22:28:58 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:28:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggles married to a witch or a wizard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AA194AA.80605@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187714 randmath23 wrote: > After reading all 7 of JKR's Harry Potter books, what prevents the muggle spouse from letting it slip about the magical world? > Bart: Insane asylums. Bart (apologizing for the brevity, albeit completeness, of his answer). From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Sep 4 22:46:22 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 18:46:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187715 In a message dated 9/4/2009 3:47:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk writes: Geoff: I'm suspicious. I think that JKR just thought of the name. After all, Ted is not an unusual name. I well remember when we all got excited over Mark Evans in the first chapter of OOTP Melissa: Oh I doubt that Ted the newscaster and Ted Tonks are one and the same. I do remember wondering about it for a while when OOTP first came out but then JKR "Evansed" us. However (just to play with the idea for a moment) it would make a bit a sense. I'm sure that the Muggle families of muggleborns and half bloods were worried about their family members and Newscaster Ted could have been their link to the WW. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Sep 4 22:49:46 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 18:49:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggles married to a witch or a wizard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187716 In a message dated 9/4/2009 5:31:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bart at moosewise.com writes: randmath23 wrote: > After reading all 7 of JKR's Harry Potter books, what prevents the muggle spouse from letting it slip about the magical world? > Bart: Insane asylums. Bart (apologizing for the brevity, albeit completeness, of his answer). _ Melissa: Actually you beat me to it. I was going to paraphrase Corneilus Fudge and say "Would you tell any one?" Melissa (who now wonders why Vernon didn't have Petunia hauled off to a rubber room when she told him about it) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Sep 4 22:51:05 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:51:05 -0000 Subject: A Sirius Matter (was: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcrudele78" wrote: > Mike, still wondering what the note left with baby Harry said Geoff: Please look after this bear? :-) (hoping that the source is recognised). From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 5 20:15:10 2009 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 20:15:10 -0000 Subject: Dementors/Baby on doorstep discussion: missing day/Mrs FIgg/Snape's soul Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187718 Oops, I accidentally posted this first to OT. Zanooda wrote in : << I thought ministry workers don't have to go to Azkaban if they need a Dementor. In GoF Fudge just summoned one to Hogwarts (the one that Kissed Crouch Jr.) when he thought he was in danger, why couldn't Umbridge do the same :-)? I don't know if Fudge summoned it from Azkaban or some other place, but either way he didn't have to go anywhere to get that Dementor, the Dementor came to him :-). >> I expect that not all MoM workers have the same privileges or powers that the Minister (Fudge) had, but, yes, if any MoM worker besides the Minister had a ministerial power, it would be Fudge's Umbridge. I believe that in GoF, Fudge was being escorted by Dementors as bodyguards to protect him and somehow not being affected by their Demention. DD required him to leave the Dementors waiting at the Hogwarts front gate, so Fudge summoned the Dementor from less than a mile away, not from Azkaban. Someone could check canon and see if I am wrong. Powerbabe/Trianarose summarized PS/SS Chapter 1 in and asked discussion questions which got responses including the following: JLyon asked in : << Why was McG there unless Bumbles told her? >> And Zanooda abswered in : << According to McGonagall, it was Hagrid who told her that DD will come to the Privet Drive: "'Hagrid's late. I suppose it was he who told you I'd be here, by the way?' - 'Yes'". She was waiting not for hagrid, but for DD. She probably knew that Hagrid was also supposed to come, but she didn't even know why. She also only knew the address, not that Harry's relatives lived there, and she didn't seem to know when exactly to expect DD. This is all a little confusing to me, I must say :-). >> It seems Hagrid hadn't told her AT ALL "when exactly to expect DD". I assume she 'heard' the commotion, went to DD's office to ask whether it was true that You Know Who was dead, found Hagrid leaving the office but DD not there, and then asked Hagrid if he knew where to find DD, and Hagrid replied: "I'm going to meet him in front of Lily's sister's house. Lily and James Potter were killed so Dumbledore asked me to take baby Harry to her sister. I'm just now off to get him." Making it sound as if they would meet in 2 hours rather than 20 hours. If he had told her that he was going to meet up with DD in about 23 hours, or at 2AM or 'tomorrow night, well I guess it's today by this time', she wouldn't have had to wait there all day long. Hagrid must have told her that James and Lily were dead, baby Harry had survived, and somehow baby Harry's survival had killed Voldemort, because she asked DD for confirmation of all those things. How else would she have heard them? I can't imagine how he would tell her that without telling her that he was taking Harry to his aunt and uncle. I suppose McGonagall asking DD why he was here, and protesting 'you can't mean these people!' was part of her trying to persuade DD not to leave Harry with people whom she had observed all day to be unsuitable. Step one: pretend that the thing you want not to be true isn't true. Step two: pretend to be surprised as well as horrified when told the horrifying truth. Geoff wrote in : << Seeing that Hagrid has just brought Harry straight in from Godric's Hollow, Madam Pomfrey hasn't had an opportunity to be anywhere near Harry. >> As shown by the above discussion, it seems that Hagrid had not just brought Harry straight from Godric's Hollow. The famous 'missing day' was between the time Hagrid got Harry at Godric's Hollow and the time Hagrid left Harry at the Dursley house. Since Rowling's text mentions that McGonagall waited all day and skipped all the feasts and celebrations, it appears to me that Rowling knew there was a day-long gap between the two events. Unless she figured that DD figured it would take Hagrid that long to travel from Godric's Hollow to Little Whinging, she must have had some idea where they spent the day, and also where DD spent the day. Unless she figured that McG figured it would take Hagrid that long, it would not have been unreasonable, time-wise, for her to have McG ask Hagrid whether Madam Pomfrey had checked the baby. As it turned out not to be a big plot mystery where they had spent the missing day, Rowling could have told the readers by having McG ask Hagrid where they had been all day, and Hagrid could have answered, even if the answer was that it took him that long to fly that distance even on the flying motorcycle, and he could even throw in that DD was at the Ministry of Magic helping direct which leading Death Eaters to round up, or whatever. Geoff wrote in : << The need for Harry to go to the Dursleys wasn't something that was planned. It came out of the blue. Mrs.Figg, as a Squib, couldn't be installed in a suburban English road at such short notice. There wouldn't be a property available in the time frame. And you could hardly do a "Grimmauld Place" and insert a magical house into the scenery. >> That suggests that DD had found out about Lily's Muggle relatives and placed Mrs Figg nearby to keep an eye on them long ago, including that she had told him what yucky people they were. If he hadn't been thinking of a need to place Lily's orphaned baby with someone other than the guardian chosen by his parents (who might have been killed in the same battle), why was he interested in Lily's Muggle relatives? Could the Death Eaters have used them to attack Lily, perhaps via the 'blood' shared by Lily and Petunia? Carol wrote in : << We know that he never killed anyone before DD. That's clear from his fear of splitting his soul and DD's question, "How many people have you watched die, Severus?" as opposed to "How many people have you killed?" >> We do NOT *know* that he never killed anyone before DD. I read his question less as fear for his soul than as resentment that DD didn't care about his soul nearly as much as about Draco's. Maybe DD could have answered truthfully, but less persuasively, "oh, your ragged old soul is already torn to tatters, and young Malfoy's is still untorn." I'm more inclined to believe that a torn soul, if not put in a Horcrux, can be mended, by repentance and trying to behave better, so Snape's concern could have been that his soul had already been torn and laboriously mended and maybe tearing it again in the same place couldn't be mended again. And DD asked Ss 'How many men and women have you watched die?' instead of 'How many have you killed?' because the context was DD telling SS to tell HP information that would make HP die. DD was not telling SS to kill HP, so 'how many people have you killed' is not relevant. DD is telling SS that DD plans for HP to die, so 'watched die' is relevant. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 6 16:57:48 2009 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Sep 2009 16:57:48 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/6/2009, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1252256268.502.54937.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187719 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday September 6, 2009 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wildirishrose at fiber.net Mon Sep 7 01:46:15 2009 From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 19:46:15 -0600 Subject: Peter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187720 We know that Peter lived as a rat with the Weasleys for years. When do you think he joined the family as their "pet." The whys are clear. He was in hiding. Why did he join the Weasleys household? Did he think he'd outlive the other Marauders? He'd be a awfully ratty looking rat after so many years. Or keep away from LV? But could he really outlive Voldy? I'm sure he had no idea that Harry would be involved in the Weasleys liives. The entire Peter plot is strange to me. It seems too much of coincidence. Or am I thinking to much? Peter gives rats a bad reputation. :o) My Hermione and Bella are very sweet ratties. :o) Marianne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Sat Sep 5 23:12:26 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 23:12:26 -0000 Subject: A Sirius Matter (was: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187721 > > Mike, still wondering what the note left with baby Harry said > Geoff: > Please look after this bear? > :-) > (hoping that the source is recognised). Zfshiruba: At the very least, the note must explain about the blood protection. Otherwise, what would Dumbledore's howler in OOP, (PETUNIA, REMEMBER MY LAST.) be referencing? Geoff, XD love the bear Zfshiruba From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Sep 7 06:46:40 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 06:46:40 -0000 Subject: Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wildirishrose" wrote: wildirishrose: > We know that Peter lived as a rat with the Weasleys for years. > > When do you think he joined the family as their "pet." Geoff: Canon gives a few clues: '"...You never get anything new, either, with five brothers. I've got Bill's old robes, Charlie's old wand and Percy's old rat." Ron reached inside his jacket and pulled out a fat, grey rat, which was asleep. "His name's Scabbers and he's useless, he hardly ever wakes up. Percy got an owl from my dad for being made a Prefect but they couldn't aff- I mean, I got Scabbers instead."' (PS "The Journey from Platform Nine and three Quarters" p.75 UK edition) '"Look, Scabbers probably had a fight with another rat or something! He's been in my family for ages, right- " "Twelve years in fact", said Lupin...' (POA "The Servant of Lord Voldemort" p.267 UK edition) This is said when Ron is in his Third Year. I've forgotten which year Percy was in when he became a Prefect but it is obvious that he was looked after by another of the family prior to Percy. This part of POA takes place late in Harry's Third Year, hence during 1994 so Lupin's comment places Peter's arrival with the family during 1982 - pretty soon after Godric's Hollow. This raises the interesting question of how he managed it and also gives me some thoughts for when I come to draft the discussion for this chapter in a few weeks' time. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 7 15:38:39 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 15:38:39 -0000 Subject: Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187723 Geoff wrote: I've forgotten which year Percy was in when he became a Prefect but it is obvious that he [Wormtail] was looked after by another of the family prior to Percy. > This [the informatopm that Scabbers had been in the Weasley family twelve years as of PoA) raises the interesting question of how he managed it and also gives me some thoughts for when I come to draft the discussion for this chapter in a few weeks' time. > Carol responds: As far as we know, Prefects are always appointed in fifth year, so Percy (who is two years ahead of the twins and four years ahead of Ron) was newly appointed when we first meet him in OoP. That would be ten years after Godric's Hollow, at which time Percy was a little boy of about five. I see no reason why the "rat" could not have been Percy's pet that whole time (from age five to age fifteen) until he became a Prefect, was rewarded with Hermes, and gave scruffy old Scabbers to Ron without a second thought. (I've always assumed that Wormtail found his way in rat form to the Weasleys' house, knowing that they had a lot of children and were too poor to afford pets other than chickens, hoping that one of the children would pick him up and ask a parent if they could keep him. (How he would escape any owls in the family, such as a not-yet-ancient Errol, I don't know, unless it meant revealing his identity by transforming into a man while he was in the owl's claws. A big chance to take, either way.) At any rate, I suppose it's possible that another Weasley kid (say, Charlie, the animal lover) adopted Scabbers and then passed him on to Percy when he became a Prefect and/or Quidditch captain ("that's everyone in the family" indicates that Bill, Charlie, and Percy were all Prefects, the Twins being momentarily forgotten and Ginny being only fourteen at the time). I don't think it's "obvious," though. We don't know either way, and I'd like to think that lonely little Percy wanted a pet to make him feel like less of an outsider in his own family. Carol, just speculating From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Sep 7 17:44:16 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 13:44:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Sirius Matter (was: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187724 In a message dated 9/6/2009 9:14:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, zfshiruba at yahoo.com writes: Zfshiruba: At the very least, the note must explain about the blood protection. Otherwise, what would Dumbledore's howler in OOP, (PETUNIA, REMEMBER MY LAST.) be referencing? Geoff, XD love the bear Melissa: Maybe he just threatened to turn them all into rats or toad spawn? ;-) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Sep 7 18:11:28 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 18:11:28 -0000 Subject: Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Geoff: > I've forgotten which year Percy was in when he became a Prefect but it is obvious that he [Wormtail] was looked after by another of the family prior to Percy. > > > This [the informatopm that Scabbers had been in the Weasley family twelve years as of PoA) raises the interesting question of how he managed it and also gives me some thoughts for when I come to draft the discussion for this chapter in a few weeks' time. Carol: > At any rate, I suppose it's possible that another Weasley kid (say, Charlie, the animal lover) adopted Scabbers and then passed him on to Percy when he became a Prefect and/or Quidditch captain ("that's everyone in the family" indicates that Bill, Charlie, and Percy were all Prefects, the Twins being momentarily forgotten and Ginny being only fourteen at the time). I don't think it's "obvious," though. We don't know either way, and I'd like to think that lonely little Percy wanted a pet to make him feel like less of an outsider in his own family. Geoff: I take your point. I considered it "obvious" meaning that the rat had been in the Weasley family all that time and assumed that he had been passed to Percy, as the next in line to the Hogwarts First Year, from one of the older guys. Your speculation that he had been just a pet prior to that thus seems quite valid as an alternative scenario. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Sep 7 18:29:11 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 18:29:11 -0000 Subject: Bears and JKR.. a thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zfshiruba" wrote: Geoff: > > Please look after this bear? > > :-) > > (hoping that the source is recognised). Zfshiruba: > At the very least, the note must explain about the blood protection. Otherwise, what would Dumbledore's howler in OOP, (PETUNIA, REMEMBER > MY LAST.) be referencing? > Geoff, XD love the bear Geoff: I'm glad you recognised it. Not many other people seemed to. I don't know, I slip in a one-line humorous response - note the smiley folks - and hardly anyone takes it light-heartedly. However, on reflection, I wondered whether I had accidentally stumbled on something in Harry Potter worthy of at least a small footnote. To those folk who are not familiar with my quote above, it refers to Paddington Bear, the eponymous hero of a series of children's books by Michael Bond which first appeared in the UK just over 50 years ago, Mr. and Mrs. Brown discover a bear at Paddington railway station in Central London carrying a suitcase containing marmalade sandwiches and with a label round his neck on which is written "Please look after this bear". They adopt him and name him after the place where he was found and there follows a long series of books covering his adventures - books beloved of several generations of children, including children in grown-up bodies. :-) So, what has this to do with JKR? After I wrote my humorous(?) little PS, I recalled that Paddington had travelled to London from "darkest Peru" and, at that point, a little light went on above my head and I thought "Peruvian Darkness Powder" - could it be a nod by herself to the Michael Bond books? From bart at moosewise.com Tue Sep 8 00:26:23 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 20:26:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AA5A4AF.1050306@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187727 Geoff: > I take your point. I considered it "obvious" meaning that the rat had been > in the Weasley family all that time and assumed that he had been passed > to Percy, as the next in line to the Hogwarts First Year, from one of the > older guys. > > Your speculation that he had been just a pet prior to that thus seems quite > valid as an alternative scenario. Bart: Consider: How many surviving couples from the Order of the Phoenix had children, other than the Weasleys? I can't think of any, off-hand. Bart From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 8 00:45:20 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 00:45:20 -0000 Subject: Peter In-Reply-To: <4AA5A4AF.1050306@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187728 > Bart: > Consider: How many surviving couples from the Order of the Phoenix > had children, other than the Weasleys? I can't think of any, off-hand. Potioncat: Molly and Arthur weren't in the Order during the first go around. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 8 01:04:00 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 01:04:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187729 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space) CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone Chapter Two, The Vanishing Glass It's been ten years since the Dursleys found Harry on their doorstep. They've pampered Dudley while barely tolerating Harry, who sleeps in a cupboard under the stairs. Strange things happen around Harry, who can't explain them but is usually punished, anyway. When the Dursleys reluctantly include Harry in Dudley's birthday outing to the zoo, Harry discovers that he can communicate with a boa constrictor. As Dudley pushes Harry out of the way and leans against the glass of the snake's display case, the glass vanishes and the snake escapes. 1. "Don't ask questions--that was the first rule for a quiet life with the Dursleys." It seems Harry and DD learned similar rules. Harry doesn't ask questions; Dumbledore doesn't tell more than he has to. Do you think JKR is merely withholding information from the reader as a plot device, or is communication breakdown also a true theme within the HP series? 2. The only thing Harry likes about his appearance is the thin scar shaped like a bolt of lightning on his forehead. Why do you think he likes it? How do you feel about that piece of information? Do you think the soul bit communicated with Baby Harry at one time, or does the soul bit have its own emotions that Harry sometimes feels? 3. Petunia says she doesn't want to leave Harry alone because she'd come home to find the house in ruins. Harry says he won't blow up the house. Just how much does Petunia know about Lily's death? What is she really concerned about? 4. Why does Petunia treat Harry so badly--jealousy or resentment or something else? Does Harry's accidental magic remind Petunia of her childhood with Lily and Sev? Now that you know about the childhood of this trio, how do you feel about the way the Dursleys and Snape treat Harry? 5. Piers Polkiss, a rat-faced boy, attends Dudley's birthday outing. He usually holds victims while the other gang members hit them. Who does he remind you of? Any comparisons between Dudley's gang and other gangs we'll see in the series? 6. The narrator describes the boa constrictor as "the largest snake in the place. It could have wrapped its body twice around Uncle Vernon's car and crushed it into a trash can ." How does this snake compare to the basilisk or to Nagini? In Deathly Hallows (ch 13), Tom Riddle says that snakes find him and whisper to him. How does this affect your reaction to Harry's conversation with the boa constrictor? 7. Vernon sends Harry to the cupboard after they return home. There he thinks about strangers who have spoken to him on the street-- a tiny man in a violet top hat; a wild-looking old woman dressed all in green; a bald man in a very long purple coat. How did these witches and wizards recognize Harry? Is it just coincidence that they're there? Can we identify any of them? 8. The chapter ends with this paragraph, "At school Harry had no one. Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes and broken glasses, and nobody liked to disagree with Dudley's gang." What do these sentences tell us about gangs and odd kids? How does being "odd Harry Potter" affect the way Harry will treat the odd people he'll meet in the coming years? What do you think it was like to go from being odd Harry Potter to the Boy Who Lived? 9. Add your own questions here. Potioncat, who would like to thank Carol for her help. ------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 3, The Letters from No One, on September 15 2009. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 8 01:26:45 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 01:26:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187730 Potioncat: 1. "Don't ask questions--that was the first rule for a quiet life with the Dursleys." It seems Harry and DD learned similar rules. Harry doesn't ask questions; Dumbledore doesn't tell more than he has to. Do you think JKR is merely withholding information from the reader as a plot device, or is communication breakdown also a true theme within the HP series? Alla: I would not call miscommunication a true theme within the series, no. I would say that in this context, Harry not asking questions is written well enough and plausibly enough to feel believable (Harry growing in abusive home and having not to ask questions ingrained in him helps JKR indeed to keep information from readers as plot device IMO and keeps readers (only talking about myself of course) from rolling their eyes. But for me to call something a theme it should go through the series and I have to see examples of it left and right. I don't. I can name a couple of examples but certainly not enough for me to call it a theme. But I would certainly call keeping a secrets and what it can lead to one of the themes of the series. 3. Petunia says she doesn't want to leave Harry alone because she'd come home to find the house in ruins. Harry says he won't blow up the house. Just how much does Petunia know about Lily's death? What is she really concerned about? Alla: Hm, good question. I would guess that yes she knows enough, probably from that letter, but as to the question of what she is concerned about, I would answer *her house*. 4. Why does Petunia treat Harry so badly--jealousy or resentment or something else? Does Harry's accidental magic remind Petunia of her childhood with Lily and Sev? Now that you know about the childhood of this trio, how do you feel about the way the Dursleys and Snape treat Harry? Alla: Had baby Harry already produce accidental magic when left on Petunia's doorstep and that made her remember her childhood and thus treat him badly to allow Dudley to prod and pinch him for weeks? I do not know what Harry accidental magic reminded her of, the magic that Harry did when he was at least couple years older, right? Quite probably it could have reminded her of Lily. Personally I wish the fact that her nephew remained orphan reminded her of how family member should treat a child who is a family member. Hm, how do I feel about the ways Dursleys and Snape treat Harry? Did you even have to ask? I think that they are mean and rotten "people" for treating innocent like this. Do I think that their childhood somehow justifies or excuses what they did to Harry? No, of course I do not. Does it make it more understandable? No, I do not think so. Actually no, let me scratch it, Snape loving Lily and losing her to James is as far as I am concerned was a primary reason for him mistreating Harry, so I certainly consider it to be a *reason*. I just do not think it is a good one. With Petunia, I do not even know how to come up with reason based on their childhood. If she herself say was in love with James, I suppose I also would say that her mistreating a Harry because he looked like James would be a reason, a rotten one, but a reason nevertheless. But she was not, she was jealous over her sister being a witch. I guess if you are saying that she transferred her jealousy on her kid simply because he was a wizard, I suppose that could be a reason. But boy, oh boy I think it such an ugly one. I remember conversation with fellow Potter fan few years ago (she is not a member of this list as far as I know) who said that if my sister died, her baby would be most lovable boy in the world for me, as simple as that. I can only say amen to that. 6. The narrator describes the boa constrictor as "the largest snake in the place. It could have wrapped its body twice around Uncle Vernon's car and crushed it into a trash can ." How does this snake compare to the basilisk or to Nagini? In Deathly Hallows (ch 13), Tom Riddle says that snakes find him and whisper to him. How does this affect your reaction to Harry's conversation with the boa constrictor? Alla: It does not affect my reaction at all, honestly. I always found this snake to be, I don't know, sweet. And was secretly fond of the theory that snake is going to show up in book 7 to help Harry somehow. 7. Vernon sends Harry to the cupboard after they return home. There he thinks about strangers who have spoken to him on the street-- a tiny man in a violet top hat; a wild-looking old woman dressed all in green; a bald man in a very long purple coat. How did these witches and wizards recognize Harry? Is it just coincidence that they're there? Can we identify any of them? Alla: I know the theory that they were the members of the order, but their appearance is to me one of the biggest holes in Protection actually protecting Harry. Why the heck they were able to approach him at all, I have no idea. I suppose bald man could be Shacklebolt, I do not know any others. Thank you for great questions. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 8 04:08:08 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 04:08:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > 7. Vernon sends Harry to the cupboard after they return > home. There he thinks about strangers who have spoken > to him on the street-- a tiny man in a violet top hat; a > wild-looking old woman dressed all in green; a bald man > in a very long purple coat. How did these witches and > wizards recognize Harry? Is it just coincidence that > they're there? Can we identify any of them? zanooda: We can identify for sure only Dedalus Diggle ("a tiny man in a violet top hat"). I tried to match the rest of them with someone we know, but without success :-). I don't think they were there by accident though, they either wanted to have a look at Harry out of curiosity, or else DD asked them to keep an eye on the boy. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Sep 8 04:38:22 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 04:38:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187732 > Alla: > > So the choice is either Dursleys or Kings Cross? I just do not think so. But I had been through choices in the past and really do not want to recite them again. Pippin: That is the choice, yes. Harry alive and miserable, or happy and dead. We don't meet anyone in the books who believes they can stop Voldemort from killing Harry any other way. Dumbledore does say in OOP that it was the only way he could keep Harry alive. And why should he be sorry about that? He's not God -- it's not his fault that there aren't any better choices. He didn't make Petunia so bitter or Sirius Black so rash. Hagrid told Sirius where he taking Harry and there was nothing stopping Sirius from going along with them, except his own poor judgment. The "pampered prince" is just the one silver lining Dumbledore could find in a very dark cloud. Remember, Dumbledore himself was a pampered prince. Everyone deferred to his brilliance and his talent. As a child his only responsibility was to develop them. Lovely, except that when he found out that real responsibilities meant hardship and discipline and sacrifice, he wasn't fit for them. That was the tragedy of his life. Can you blame him for being relieved that Harry escaped it? > Alla: > > Yes I can if the guardrail causes the person who may or may not approach it pain and sufferings. > Pippin: Running into the guardrail is usually not painless. But it's better than falling over the cliff. Alla: > Voldemort says that he and his DE cannot penetrate the protection? That's nice, really. However, I also see that a wizard approaches Harry quite freely when he is with Petunia of all people. She is the very person in whom Harry's mother blood dwells, isn't she? > So, how the heck I am supposed to believe that DE cannot approach Harry if this guy can? Pippin: Wizards approach Petunia. Wizards, owls and a house-elf enter Privet Drive, they destroy part of the house, they place enchantments on Dudley, and even on Harry himself. But none of them meant any harm to Harry. So how am I supposed to believe that any DE could have managed it, when Voldemort says so clearly that he himself could not? The DE's do know where Harry is -- that's clear in DH -- but they can't get close to the house as long as the enchantment lasts. If there was any chance of their getting in, wouldn't the Order have had someone posted there 24/7? They do have such a guard in OOP, but it's not Voldemort they worried about -- it's the Ministry. The Order is perfectly sure that Harry is safe from the DE's until the enchantment expires. If Mad-eye can't find a weak spot, it's pretty obvious there isn't one. I have no comment on the Avatar series, except to say that it put me to sleep, but comparing what the readers know to what the characters know in a work of fiction is apples and oranges. Look at LOTR. Could the people of Middle Earth have united and driven Sauron out of Mordor without using the Ring? Possibly. They didn't try, so I can't know But it's clear to me why the characters wouldn't think it was feasible. As in LOTR, the people of the wizarding world are too isolated and mistrustful of one another to unite effectively unless something happens to drastically weaken their foe. I can say that Tolkien should have shown me someone who tried and failed, but that would be a different story. That would be a story where Frodo wondered whether destroying the Ring was really necessary to defeat Sauron, and Frodo is not ever in any doubt about that, only about whether he is the one to do it. Harry is never in any doubt that the protection at Privet Drive was necessary, so I don't see why we should be. Someone mentioned child soldiers -- but it isn't Dumbledore who makes war on children. It's Voldemort. Privet Drive is the one place where Harry doesn't have to be a child soldier, because it's the one place the DE's can't attack as long as the protection last. Alla: > I get what JKR was trying to do with blood protection, and really if either Dursleys were better people, OR if I thought that what Harry underwent through at Dursleys, thing like prodding and pinching, Dursley' hunting, trying to duck from Vernon hands and Petunia's pan, starvation, which I consider pure physical abuse, if I thought that these things could be just brushed aside, forget about absence of love, then I would have went easy on JKR with how convincing I wanted blood protection to be. Pippin: But the whole point is that the Dursleys were not better people and they did harm Harry, just like the whole point of Gollum is that he's treacherous and he did harm Frodo. And yet, just as Frodo could not have survived without Gollum, Harry could not have survived without the Dursleys. Pippin From sweenlit at gmail.com Tue Sep 8 05:53:57 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 22:53:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter In-Reply-To: References: <4AA5A4AF.1050306@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0909072253w6d265183x91c702e484a44272@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187733 > Bart: > Consider: How many surviving couples from the Order of the Phoenix > had children, other than the Weasleys? I can't think of any, off-hand. ------------------------ Well, Neville's mom and dad are still living, just in a hospital. We're not told of any others, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. She didn't follow up on every couple and their life after the first OOP. I've always thought Wormtail was Percy's rat from a young age. Maybe he felt safe with the Weasleys. A pureblood family where he would be well-taken care of, not suspected of being anything he didn't appear to be, and one that wasn't wealthy enough to draw a lot of attention. Lynda From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 8 11:42:18 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 11:42:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187734 > > Pippin:> > Dumbledore does say in OOP that it was the only way he could keep Harry alive. And why should he be sorry about that? He's not God -- it's not his fault that there aren't any better choices. He didn't make Petunia so bitter or Sirius Black so rash. Hagrid told Sirius where he taking Harry and there was nothing stopping Sirius from going along with them, except his own poor judgment. Potioncat (agreeing with Pippin): The only reason DD is involved is because Harry is the Prophecy boy. I don't think it's that DD had any special fondness for the Potters above any other Order member. Without the prophecy, Harry is just another orphan of war. DD is trying to give this child the best start in life possible--because of his Destiny. That means the best protection. DD's goal wasn't to find a good home for Harry, but to provide a safe place for him to grow up. Look what happens to the Longbottoms after LV is vaporised. Without protection, who knows what would have happened to Harry? I can imagine Bella torturing the baby to death. I can imagine Lucius taking in the little-Dark-Wizard-who-destroyed-the-Dark-Lord with the idea of raising him up for Lucius's own purposes. Pippin: > > Harry is never in any doubt that the protection at Privet Drive was necessary, so I don't see why we should be. Someone mentioned child soldiers -- but it isn't Dumbledore who makes war on children. It's Voldemort. Privet Drive is the one place where Harry doesn't have to be a child soldier, because it's the one place the DE's can't attack as long as the protection last. Potioncat: Agreed, I think DD's plan was to prepare Harry for the battle--but I'm not sure he expected the fight to come so soon. And I'm sure DD didn't expect to grow fond of Harry. I think Harry may be the only person he did care about as an individual. > > Alla: > > I get what JKR was trying to do with blood protection, and really if either Dursleys were better people, OR if I thought that what Harry underwent through at Dursleys, thing like prodding and pinching, Dursley' hunting, trying to duck from Vernon hands and Petunia's pan, starvation, which I consider pure physical abuse, if I thought that these things could be just brushed aside, forget about absence of love, then I would have went easy on JKR with how convincing I wanted blood protection to be. Potioncat: It could have been written that Harry went to his loving Muggle relatives and lived happily until the time he went to Hogwarts and learned magic. But I think this way makes for a better story. He's not the well bred, well provided for Prince--who of course can face the Dark Lord---he's the skinny kid who's faced adversity who doesn't think he's anything special. Just like I can imagine seveal different ways for the prophecy to play out, but I haven't found one that makes as good a story as the one in canon. > From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 8 11:48:04 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 11:48:04 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187735 Alla: > > So the choice is either Dursleys or Kings Cross? I just do not think so. But I had been through choices in the past and really do not want to recite them again. Pippin: That is the choice, yes. Harry alive and miserable, or happy and dead. We don't meet anyone in the books who believes they can stop Voldemort from killing Harry any other way. Alla: I do not remember meeting anybody in the books discussing other choices period except Dumbledore and forgive me if I find his words to be a bit of self justification and suspect. It is good that you are convinced that it was the only choice, I am not that is all there is to it. Pippin: Dumbledore does say in OOP that it was the only way he could keep Harry alive. And why should he be sorry about that? He's not God -- it's not his fault that there aren't any better choices. He didn't make Petunia so bitter or Sirius Black so rash. Hagrid told Sirius where he taking Harry and there was nothing stopping Sirius from going along with them, except his own poor judgment. Alla: Why should he be sorry? Probably because he is not a family member and nobody died and made him in charge of Harry's well-being. You say he is not God, to me it felt that he indeed appointed himself a God and acted like one. I do not know where Sirius would have taken Harry to, if Dumbledore would not have sent Hagrid. If he would have taken Harry with him when he was going after Peter, I would have been the first one to say that it was a rash and horrible thing to do, but for all I know he would have taken Harry to the safe place and then went after Peter, or not went after Peter at all (Mike you convinced me I do not think it was a rash and reckless thing to do as things stand anymore). Pippin: The "pampered prince" is just the one silver lining Dumbledore could find in a very dark cloud. Remember, Dumbledore himself was a pampered prince. Everyone deferred to his brilliance and his talent. As a child his only responsibility was to develop them. Lovely, except that when he found out that real responsibilities meant hardship and discipline and sacrifice, he wasn't fit for them. That was the tragedy of his life. Can you blame him for being relieved that Harry escaped it? Alla: Yes, I absolutely can and as I said upthread this is part of the reason why I find the execution of such choice to be so unconvincing, because Dumbledore adds this "pampered prince" crap to his rhetoric. First of all I do not know when Dumbledore says it that he is talking about his own childhood, I took it to mean that the love and care of the wizarding family for him means raising Harry as pampered prince. And even if Dumbledore means his own childhood, um, no I do not think he was a pampered prince, I do not know how I can blame his parents for Dumbledore being screwed in the head and wanting to go with Grindelwald. I blame Dumbledore for that, who knows maybe if more details were shown about his upbringing, I would have changed my mind. So, yes, if Dumbledore wanted for Harry to not have parents as he had, my only response would be how dare you you bastard. Pippin: Wizards approach Petunia. Wizards, owls and a house-elf enter Privet Drive, they destroy part of the house, they place enchantments on Dudley, and even on Harry himself. But none of them meant any harm to Harry. Alla: Oh? And how do we know that three wizards that approached him meant no harm? Maybe at least one of them was Voldemort's spy and was trying to find ways to get closer to Harry? Pippin: So how am I supposed to believe that any DE could have managed it, when Voldemort says so clearly that he himself could not? Alla: If Voldemort was alive all this time by the way, that would have been another way to convince me of necessity of blood protection. Pippin: I have no comment on the Avatar series, except to say that it put me to sleep, but comparing what the readers know to what the characters know in a work of fiction is apples and oranges. Alla: LOL. Sorry, to each their own of course, I am just amused that I finally met the person whom Avatar put to sleep. But could you remind me where I was comparing what characters know to what readers know? I was trying to explain what I consider to be groundbreaking plot and character changes in the genre and thus giving some plot details to show what I consider new and fresh and what in my view Avatar writers did and JKR did not. Please remind me where I did what you just said I did. Pippin: Look at LOTR. Could the people of Middle Earth have united and driven Sauron out of Mordor without using the Ring? Possibly. They didn't try, so I can't know But it's clear to me why the characters wouldn't think it was feasible. Alla: Funny, contrary to HP it is clear to me in LOTR as well. It is probably because nobody can change what the Ring is and well, I was given enough reason to doubt that Harry's fate just has to proceed the way Dumbledore wanted to. Pippin: But the whole point is that the Dursleys were not better people and they did harm Harry, just like the whole point of Gollum is that he's treacherous and he did harm Frodo. And yet, just as Frodo could not have survived without Gollum, Harry could not have survived without the Dursleys. Alla: Yes, I know that this is the whole point, the one which I find unconvincing that is all. Oh and yes, I know that all the scenarios would have made for a different story. That goes without saying, I do not see why you even mention it. JMO, Alla From sandie.hans at gmail.com Tue Sep 8 13:07:12 2009 From: sandie.hans at gmail.com (spa76) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 13:07:12 -0000 Subject: Fabian & Gideon Prewett Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187736 A friend, who is the mother of twins, told me that if you read closely, Fabian & Gideon Prewett were most probably twins who Fred & George were named after, and that their heroic deaths foreshadow the fact that the Weasley twins would either die or be injured in battle like their uncles. The twin theory sounds plausible, but I've only read the books once (all seven this summer after HBP the movie was released), and I can't remember there being too, too much discussion about the Prewett brothers, other than the conversation Moody has with Harry pointing out the members of the original Order in OotP in a photo and later in DH when Molly gives Harry his 17th-birthday "coming of age" watch. What do those of who are more immersed in the books think? --Sandie, a HP newbie From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 8 14:10:52 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:10:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187737 Potioncat: It could have been written that Harry went to his loving Muggle relatives and lived happily until the time he went to Hogwarts and learned magic. But I think this way makes for a better story. He's not the well bred, well provided for Prince--who of course can face the Dark Lord---he's the skinny kid who's faced adversity who doesn't think he's anything special. Just like I can imagine several different ways for the prophecy to play out, but I haven't found one that makes as good a story as the one in canon. Alla: Well, of course it does! I understand how I may have given the impression that I am not happy with the story as it is in my last few posts, but I have to clarify. I AM happy with the story if I am looking at it from outside, abused Harry to me makes for much more huggable and sympathetic, much stronger character etc. It is when I am looking at the story from characters' POV then I will say that I am not going to wish it on anybody, otherwise sure, damaged, hurt Harry makes for better reading than Harry who is happy all the time. Moreover, even though I stand by the argument that I find the idea that blood protection ONLY could save Harry to be understandable but not convincing enough for me, it only matters to me in one scenario and the scenario would be if one is saying that what Dumbledore did to Harry is a choice of good, moral person. Basically if one defends Dumbledore here, I would say eh, no way, no how, am just not buying it. However, however if the story is to portray a manipulator who did not even bother to think of other choices and interfered with a child whom he was no relation to because he felt he knew better, I do not need any additional details or anything, I think Dumbledore is portrayed very convincingly. Like when we are talking about Dumbledore not visiting, not looking out for Harry's everyday well being and then in OOP Order seems to have no problems visiting Harry. Oh sure we can come up with so many excuses, off page rationalizations as to why they could have done it now and not before, but I do not see nothing in the book which tells me that yes, there was a reason why Dumbledore could not have come and threaten Dursleys into treating Harry better before his Hogwarts times and Order now can. To say the famous words ? I see no difference. Of course there is the necessity of JKR keeping Harry with Dursleys before Hogwarts, I know that, we all know that. JMO, Alla From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Sep 8 15:19:04 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:19:04 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187738 Zara: Thank you, Potioncat, for your nice summary and excellent questions! > Potioncat: > 2. The only thing Harry likes about his appearance is the thin scar shaped like a bolt of lightning on his forehead. Why do you think he likes it? How do you feel about that piece of information? Do you think the soul bit communicated with Baby Harry at one time, or does the soul bit have its own emotions that Harry sometimes feels? Zara: I took this very literally, to mean nothing about how the scar may or may not have made Harry feel (I think it was probaby dormant throught Harry's life up to this point), but to be merely about Harry liking how it looked. It's distinctive, "cool", and perhaps also a reminder that he does not "belong" with the Dursleys, as it dates to before he started living with them. > 4. Why does Petunia treat Harry so badly--jealousy or resentment or something else? Does Harry's accidental magic remind Petunia of her childhood with Lily and Sev? Now that you know about the childhood of this trio, how do you feel about the way the Dursleys and Snape treat Harry? Zara: Vernon's just a jerk, as far as I am concerned. But I think there is an element of fear in Petunia's feelings that I find understandable, and I do give her some credit for her choice to take Harry in rather than leave him to his fate. > 5. Piers Polkiss, a rat-faced boy, attends Dudley's birthday outing. He usually holds victims while the other gang members hit them. Who does he remind you of? Any comparisons between Dudley's gang and other gangs we'll see in the series? Zara: I see this as a parallel to the school-age Marauders. Piers is a form of the name Peter, his full name is alliterative in the same way that "Peter Pettigrew" is, and Piers is described as rat-like, whereas Peter's "true nature" (his Animagus form) is that of a rat. Piers' role in his gang also mirrors that of Peter's, he's the weak one who does not fully participate in the gang's activities but enjoys them. I also think it is no coincidence that the other book in which I can recall Piers is mentioned is OotP. > 6. The narrator describes the boa constrictor as "the largest snake in the place. It could have wrapped its body twice around Uncle Vernon's car and crushed it into a trash can ." How does this snake compare to the basilisk or to Nagini? In Deathly Hallows (ch 13), Tom Riddle says that snakes find him and whisper to him. How does this affect your reaction to Harry's conversation with the boa constrictor? Zara: For me personally, this scene established the non-sinister nature of Parseltongue. Individual Parselmouths of our later acquanitance may have been sinister, but this scene irrevocably marked the gift itself as "not dark" in my mind. It was such a friendly, normal conversation for two creatures to have. > 7. Vernon sends Harry to the cupboard after they return home. There he thinks about strangers who have spoken to him on the street-- a tiny man in a violet top hat; a wild-looking old woman dressed all in green; a bald man in a very long purple coat. How did these witches and wizards recognize Harry? Is it just coincidence that they're there? Can we identify any of them? Zara: We see later (Chapter 6, PS/SS) that Harry's possession of a lighting-shaped scar is common knowledge, it is how the Weasleys recogninze him. Perhaps Harry has Hagrid to thank for this? From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Sep 8 17:49:39 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 17:49:39 -0000 Subject: Fabian & Gideon Prewett In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187739 > Sandie: > The twin theory sounds plausible, but I've only read the books once (all seven this summer after HBP the movie was released), and I can't remember there being too, too much discussion about the Prewett brothers, other than the conversation Moody has with Harry pointing out the members of the original Order in OotP in a photo and later in DH when Molly gives Harry his 17th-birthday "coming of age" watch. > > What do those of who are more immersed in the books think? Zara: Hi Sandie! It is not known whether the Prewett broithers were twins or not. They are only mentioned a couple of times, in OotP (in the early going at 12 GP, where their story may put Molly's Boggart in the proper context for us readers) and in DH (the watch Molly gives Harry on his birthday belonged to her brother Fabian). I consider it a reasonable supposition that we were supposed to think Molly named her sons after her two beothers, but this is also not confirmed. That Rowling chose these names knowing what she planned, seems likely to me, I see a lot of places in the series where there are tiny little clues of things that are to come, once you start looking. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Sep 8 18:39:15 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:39:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CBFECACCF003C9-2244-2808F@webmail-m076.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187740 Alla: Oh? And how do we know that three wizards that approached him meant no harm? Maybe at least one of them was Voldemort's spy and was trying to find ways to get closer to Harry? Melissa: I think that we know they meant him no harm because?nothing happened to them. Hmmmm. . .IOW if they had meant to harm Harry then the protection?the blood magic offers would have kicked in?and since nothing happens?then no harm was meant. -----Original Message----- From: dumbledore11214 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Sep 8, 2009 6:48 am Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG Alla: > > So the choice is either Dursleys or Kings Cross? I just do not think so. But I had been through choices in the past and really do not want to recite them again. Pippin: That is the choice, yes. Harry alive and miserable, or happy and dead. We don't meet anyone in the books who believes they can stop Voldemort from killing Harry any other way. Alla: I do not remember meeting anybody in the books discussing other choices period except Dumbledore and forgive me if I find his words to be a bit of self justification and suspect. It is good that you are convinced that it was the only choice, I am not that is all there is to it. Pippin: Dumbledore does say in OOP that it was the only way he could keep Harry alive. And why should he be sorry about that? He's not God -- it's not his fault that there aren't any better choices. He didn't make Petunia so bitter or Sirius Black so rash. Hagrid told Sirius where he taking Harry and there was nothing stopping Sirius from going along with them, except his own poor judgment. Alla: Why should he be sorry? Probably because he is not a family member and nobody died and made him in charge of Harry's well-being. You say he is not God, to me it felt that he indeed appointed himself a God and acted like one. I do not know where Sirius would have taken Harry to, if Dumbledore would not have sent Hagrid. If he would have taken Harry with him when he was going after Peter, I would have been the first one to say that it was a rash and horrible thing to do, but for all I know he would have taken Harry to the safe place and then went after Peter, or not went after Peter at all (Mike you convinced me I do not think it was a rash and reckless thing to do as things stand anymore). Pippin: The "pampered prince" is just the one silver lining Dumbledore could find in a very dark cloud. Remember, Dumbledore himself was a pampered prince. Everyone deferred to his brilliance and his talent. As a child his only responsibility was to develop them. Lovely, except that when he found out that real responsibilities meant hardship and discipline and sacrifice, he wasn't fit for them. That was the tragedy of his life. Can you blame him for being relieved that Harry escaped it? Alla: Yes, I absolutely can and as I said upthread this is part of the reason why I find the execution of such choice to be so unconvincing, because Dumbledore adds this "pampered prince" crap to his rhetoric. First of all I do not know when Dumbledore says it that he is talking about his own childhood, I took it to mean that the love and care of the wizarding family for him means raising Harry as pampered prince. And even if Dumbledore means his own childhood, um, no I do not think he was a pampered prince, I do not know how I can blame his parents for Dumbledore being screwed in the head and wanting to go with Grindelwald. I blame Dumbledore for that, who knows maybe if more details were shown about his upbringing, I would have changed my mind. So, yes, if Dumbledore wanted for Harry to not have parents as he had, my only response would be how dare you you bastard. Pippin: Wizards approach Petunia. Wizards, owls and a house-elf enter Privet Drive, they destroy part of the house, they place enchantments on Dudley, and even on Harry himself. But none of them meant any harm to Harry. Alla: Oh? And how do we know that three wizards that approached him meant no harm? Maybe at least one of them was Voldemort's spy and was trying to find ways to get closer to Harry? Pippin: So how am I supposed to believe that any DE could have managed it, when Voldemort says so clearly that he himself could not? Alla: If Voldemort was alive all this time by the way, that would have been another way to convince me of necessity of blood protection. Pippin: I have no comment on the Avatar series, except to say that it put me to sleep, but comparing what the readers know to what the characters know in a work of fiction is apples and oranges. Alla: LOL. Sorry, to each their own of course, I am just amused that I finally met the person whom Avatar put to sleep. But could you remind me where I was comparing what characters know to what readers know? I was trying to explain what I consider to be groundbreaking plot and character changes in the genre and thus giving some plot details to show what I consider new and fresh and what in my view Avatar writers did and JKR did not. Please remind me where I did what you just said I did. Pippin: Look at LOTR. Could the people of Middle Earth have united and driven Sauron out of Mordor without using the Ring? Possibly. They didn't try, so I can't know But it's clear to me why the characters wouldn't think it was feasible. Alla: Funny, contrary to HP it is clear to me in LOTR as well. It is probably because nobody can change what the Ring is and well, I was given enough reason to doubt that Harry's fate just has to proceed the way Dumbledore wanted to. Pippin: But the whole point is that the Dursleys were not better people and they did harm Harry, just like the whole point of Gollum is that he's treacherous and he did harm Frodo. And yet, just as Frodo could not have survived without Gollum, Harry could not have survived without the Dursleys. Alla: Yes, I know that this is the whole point, the one which I find unconvincing that is all. Oh and yes, I know that all the scenarios would have made for a different story. That goes without saying, I do not see why you even mention it. JMO, Alla [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 8 18:55:09 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:55:09 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: <8CBFECACCF003C9-2244-2808F@webmail-m076.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187741 > Alla: > > Oh? And how do we know that three wizards that approached him meant no harm? Maybe at least one of them was Voldemort's spy and was trying to find ways to get closer to Harry? > > Melissa: > > > I think that we know they meant him no harm because?nothing happened to them. Hmmmm. . .IOW if they had meant to harm Harry then the protection?the blood magic offers would have kicked in?and since nothing happens?then no harm was meant. Alla: Well, yes. My point is that all we know is that *strangers* approached Harry, they could have been Order members, they could have been Voldemort spies. I just think that this does not show the strength of the protection. JMO, Alla From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Sep 8 19:41:41 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 15:41:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOI... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187742 In a message dated 9/8/2009 1:57:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: Alla: Well, yes. My point is that all we know is that *strangers* approached Harry, they could have been Order members, they could have been Voldemort spies. I just think that this does not show the strength of the protection. Melissa: I wish JKR had let up see the strength of the protection (I imagine it being a huge bug zapper :-) ) but since she doesn't its enough for me to believe that it is strong. . especially since LV knows that he cannot get to him there. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Tue Sep 8 23:50:35 2009 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (gav_fiji) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:50:35 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOI... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187743 > Alla: > My point is that all we know is that *strangers* approached > Harry, they could have been Order members, they could have > been Voldemort spies. Goddlefrood: We can say with some certainty that one of the three was Daedalus Diggle, as noted by zanooda uplist a way. The other two could have bben neutral or as above. > Melissa: > ... its enough for me to believe that it is strong . . > especially since LV knows that he cannot get to him > there. Goddlefrood: It only works immediately around the house, iirc, otherwise the Seven Potters would have been unnecessary when leaving the same. Out in the town, as Harry was in the case under discussion, the protection was, IMO meaningless and therefore, it has to be said that the chances are that the two unknown wizards were not hostile to Harry. That they seemed friendly from his point of view should further reinforce the idea that they were not anti-Harry. From bart at moosewise.com Wed Sep 9 01:32:05 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:32:05 -0400 Subject: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? Message-ID: <4AA70595.6050308@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187744 Bart: OK, first of all, let me start out that JKR never actually said that Harry Potter performed the act of bodily elimination. I would not think that anybody could say that this means that Harry never took a crap in his 6 years at Hogwarts and one year on the run (and frankly, I'd just as soon not know how such arrangements worked when the Trio were camping, For all I know, Hermione waved a wand and said, "Excrementous Eliminatus!"). In other words, just because JKR didn't say anything about it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. So, here's the thing. I personally believe that, although she wasn't in the Moody photo, I don't recall anything that says that Molly (or Arthur, for that matter) was not in the original Order of the Phoenix. I kind of assumed that she was, considering how the old hands, including DD, allowed her to take a leadership role in at least the organizational end of the 2nd OOP. Now, it could be just her personality that caused others to defer to her, or willingness to accept her as an equal because she's on their side, but she does seem to be no stranger to such things. Perhaps it was by proxy; note that Arthur doesn't even seem to be core in the 2nd Order. But I still have a feeling that it is at least implied that she was a member of the 1st Order. Anybody have any specific ideas one way or the other (or is there canon I missed which specifies that she wasn't)? If there is no specific canon, are there any hints? Bart From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 9 01:42:16 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 01:42:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187745 > > 1. "Don't ask questions--that was the first rule for a quiet life with the Dursleys." It seems Harry and DD learned similar rules. Harry doesn't ask questions; Dumbledore doesn't tell more than he has to. Do you think JKR is merely withholding information from the reader as a plot device, or is communication breakdown also a true theme within the HP series? Carol responds: I think it's both. JKR is secretive, too--she likes to withhold information to surprise the reader or to give us partial information (a la Dumbledore and Snape) so the that we "know" what Harry does and sometimes leap to the same wrong conclusions. Sometimes the partial information is just foreshadowing, as in the reference to "young Sirius Black" in chapter one. But I think that the breakdown or failure of communication is also a persistent motif--withheld information, misinformation, interruptions just as someone is about to reveal important information. Just to take one example, look at Harry's and Hermione's interpretation of Tonks's and Mrs. Weasley's behavior in HBP. Hermione thinks that Tonks has survivor's guilt; Harry thinks that Mrs. Weasley is trying to interest Bill in Tonks and that Tonks was in love with Sirius (the big, four-footed Patronus must be Padfoot, right? Wrong.) Anyway, that's just one example of many throughout the books. To give an example more closely related to SS/PS, Harry later hears DD tell Petunia "We have corresponded" and thinks he's referring solely to the Howler. The reader at that point knows about the letter left with baby Harry on the doorstep, but neither Harry nor the reader yet knows about the correspondence that will be revealed in "The Prince's Tale." > > 2. The only thing Harry likes about his appearance is the thin scar shaped like a bolt of lightning on his forehead. Why do you think he likes it? How do you feel about that piece of information? Do you think the soul bit communicated with Baby Harry at one time, or does the soul bit have its own emotions that Harry sometimes feels? Carol: I think he likes it because it's unique and distinctive. If it weren't for the scar, he'd be just a skinny kid with taped glasses and overlarge hand-me-downs. (He doesn't know that he's a wizard and is special, though not unique, in that respect, too.) Maybe that's one reason that JKR wanted a boy as the hero of her book. Most girls wouldn't consider the scar "cool." I don't see any evidence that the soul bit communicated with baby Harry, only accidental magic like all young wizards display when they're angry or scared. Carol, who has to get off the computer now because of a thunderstorm and will finish later From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 9 01:48:57 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 01:48:57 -0000 Subject: What could happen in the books WAS :Re: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) i In-Reply-To: <4AA70595.6050308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187746 > Bart: > OK, first of all, let me start out that JKR never actually said that > Harry Potter performed the act of bodily elimination. I would not think > that anybody could say that this means that Harry never took a crap in > his 6 years at Hogwarts and one year on the run (and frankly, I'd just > as soon not know how such arrangements worked when the Trio were > camping, For all I know, Hermione waved a wand and said, "Excrementous > Eliminatus!"). > > In other words, just because JKR didn't say anything about it > doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Alla: And I think that act of bodily elimination together with such acts like brushing their teeth, bathing, taking shower (okay, Harry was in the bath once or twice lol) are exceptions, because really how many writers do mention it unless it is specifically needed for the plot? But if writer did not say it did it happen? My answer is of course it did not happen, otherwise how we are supposed to discuss the story if your story is different from what author wanted to tell us? I did and probably will disagree with the interpetations of what actually can be considered a hint based on which our imaginations run wild, but if there is no sign of something in the book whatsoever, not even a hint to based it on, yes, I would say that it did not happen. I want to say that Harry apparated on Mars for the fun of it. Are you really saying that it could have happened? JMO, Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Sep 9 02:12:52 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 02:12:52 -0000 Subject: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: <4AA70595.6050308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187747 > Bart: > Perhaps it was by proxy; note that Arthur doesn't even seem to be core > in the 2nd Order. But I still have a feeling that it is at least implied > that she was a member of the 1st Order. Anybody have any specific ideas > one way or the other (or is there canon I missed which specifies that > she wasn't)? If there is no specific canon, are there any hints? Potioncat: I think it was in OoP--Lupin says something to Molly along the line of "you weren't in the Order the first time around." or it may have been, "You and Arthur weren't in the Order...." Does anyone have the actual chapter and book? Arthur and Molly seem to have eloped right after school and started a family. I'm not sure they would have been good candidates for the Order at the time. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 9 02:48:52 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 02:48:52 -0000 Subject: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I think it was in OoP--Lupin says something to Molly along > the line of "you weren't in the Order the first time around." > or it may have been, "You and Arthur weren't in the Order...." > Does anyone have the actual chapter and book? zanooda: Yeah, it's from "The Woes of Mrs.Weasley": "...we're much better off than we were last time, you weren't in the Order then,you don't understand, last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one..."(p.177 Am.ed.). From bart at moosewise.com Wed Sep 9 03:01:17 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:01:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AA71A7D.4080004@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187749 zanooda: > Yeah, it's from "The Woes of Mrs.Weasley": "...we're much better off than we were last time, you weren't in the Order then,you don't understand, last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one..."(p.177 Am.ed.). Bart: Thanks. Which still makes me wonder how Molly got recruited to sacrifice as much as she did for the 2nd OOP so early on. But that sounds like a job for fanfic. Bart From margdean56 at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 03:12:45 2009 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 21:12:45 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187750 On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 7:42 PM, justcarol67 wrote: >> 2. The only thing Harry likes about his appearance is the thin scar shaped >> like a bolt of lightning on his forehead. Why do you think he likes it? How >> do you feel about that piece of information? Do you think the soul bit >> communicated with Baby Harry at one time, or does the soul bit have its own >> emotions that Harry sometimes feels? > > Carol: > I think he likes it because it's unique and distinctive. If it weren't for > the scar, he'd be just a skinny kid with taped glasses and overlarge > hand-me-downs. (He doesn't know that he's a wizard and is special, though > not unique, in that respect, too.) Maybe that's one reason that JKR wanted a > boy as the hero of her book. Most girls wouldn't consider the scar "cool." Margaret: >From what I recall reading about what she's said in interviews, Harry didn't give JKR much choice ... he sort of showed up in her head, name, gender and all, and said "Here I am, write about me!" Happens sometimes... --Margaret Dean From kernsac at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 03:18:28 2009 From: kernsac at gmail.com (Peggy Kern) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 20:18:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187751 Potioncat: I think it was in OoP--Lupin says something to Molly along the line of "you weren't in the Order the first time around." or it may have been, "You and Arthur weren't in the Order...." Does anyone have the actual chapter and book? Peggy: It's in Order of the Phoenix, in the chapter where Mrs. Weasley can't get rid of the boggart (Chapter 9, The Woes of Mrs. Weasley). Lupin says, "Look, I can't promise no one's going to get hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better off than we were last time, you weren't in the Order then, you don't understand, ...". Is that what you were looking for? Peggy __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4408 (20090908) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Sep 9 03:41:06 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 03:41:06 -0000 Subject: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: <4AA70595.6050308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187752 > Bart: > So, here's the thing. I personally believe that, although she wasn't > in the Moody photo, I don't recall anything that says that Molly (or > Arthur, for that matter) was not in the original Order of the Phoenix. Zara: I took that to be evidence that neither she nor Arthur was in the Order, that they were not in the photo, and they were not mentioned. For example, in the scene where we learn of the deaths of the Prewetts (Moody is naming the people in the photo), their sister is not mentioned at all. Bart: > I kind of assumed that she was, considering how the old hands, including > DD, allowed her to take a leadership role in at least the organizational > end of the 2nd OOP. Zara: Yes...speaking of ALbus, here is the moment he asks her if she and Arthur will support him: > GoF: > "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?" > "Of course you can," said Mrs. Weasley. She was white to the lips, but she looked resolute. "We know what Fudge is. It's Arthur's fondness for Muggles that has held him back at the Ministry all these years. Fudge thinks he lacks proper wizarding pride." Zara: Again, neither of them refers to a shared past. > Bart: > Anybody have any specific ideas > one way or the other (or is there canon I missed which specifies that > she wasn't)? If there is no specific canon, are there any hints? Zara: The big reason for me to suppose that she was not a member of the original Order, to my mind, is the canon on when her kids were born. The Twins and Ron, and Ginny, were born during the war itself, and she would have had three other young kids at home at that time (Percy, Bill, and Charlie). She and Arthur are not at all wealthy. Thus, I presume Molly must have been the person responsible for caring for all of these kids unassisted, and could therefore not have had the time or energy for extra activities. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 9 03:46:38 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 03:46:38 -0000 Subject: Fabian & Gideon Prewett In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187753 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > They are only mentioned a couple of times, in OotP (in the > early going at 12 GP, where their story may put Molly's > Boggart in the proper context for us readers) and in DH > (the watch Molly gives Harry on his birthday belonged to > her brother Fabian). zanooda: Also, Hagrid mentioned them in PS/SS, but only as "the Prewetts", without the names. It's not very clear to me how the brothers died though. Moody said that it took five DEs to kill them, so I assumed there was a battle. But later the same book says that Dolohov was convicted and sent to Azkaban for the "brutal murders" of Fabian and Gideon Prewett, which doesn't sound like battle to me :-). From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Sep 9 11:14:29 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 11:14:29 -0000 Subject: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: <4AA71A7D.4080004@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187754 > Bart: > Thanks. Which still makes me wonder how Molly got recruited to > sacrifice as much as she did for the 2nd OOP so early on. But that > sounds like a job for fanfic. Potioncat: I'm nicking this quote from Zara's post > > > GoF: > > "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?" > > > "Of course you can," said Mrs. Weasley. She was white to the lips, but she looked resolute. "We know what Fudge is. It's Arthur's fondness for Muggles that has held him back at the Ministry all these years. Fudge thinks he lacks proper wizarding pride." There are two possibilities, DD may have been quietly chattig this idea up among certain groups, and it isn't the first time he's talked to the Weasleys about the Order. Or it could be that he knows the Weasleys' opinions well enough to believe they would want to be involved. Molly's comment about Arthur tells us that he's been vocal enough within the MoM to have a certain reputation. I thnk in one of the books, we hear that Arthur has managed to get some Muggle-friendly laws passed. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 9 15:32:04 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:32:04 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Carol: My post got interrupted by a thunderstorm last night, so I'll resume now. I've deliberately avoided reading anyone else's responses. > 3. Petunia says she doesn't want to leave Harry alone because she'd come home to find the house in ruins. Harry says he won't blow up the house. Just how much does Petunia know about Lily's death? What is she really concerned about? Carol: On my first reading, long ago, I thought she was just exaggerating, but since she later says, "Then she went and got herself blown up," I think she knows that the house (or at least the part that Harry and Lily were in) was in ruins after LV tried and failed to kill Harry. I doubt that she knows it was a failed AK that rebounded on Voldemort, but DD may have told her about the protective magic from her self-sacrifice that saved Harry and will extend to her and her family if she takes him in. Otherwise, he'd be appealing only to her humanity and her love for her sister, a risky proposition at best. When she tells him she doesn't want to find the house in ruins, she's not implying (as Harry clearly thinks) that he'll blow up the house. She may actually be thinking that bad Wizards could come after him and do what LV did at Godric's Hollow. But phrasing it as she does makes it look to Vernon as well as to Harry as if her concern is solely for the house. Of course, she *doesn't* want to find the house in ruins, but it has nothing to do with Harry blowing it up himself, IMO. (I doubt that she thinks fifteen-month-old Harry accidentally or deliberately destroyed the cottage at Godric's Hollow.) > > 4. Why does Petunia treat Harry so badly--jealousy or resentment or something else? Does Harry's accidental magic remind Petunia of her childhood with Lily and Sev? Now that you know about the childhood of this trio, how do you feel about the way the Dursleys and Snape treat Harry? Carol: I think she sees Harry as an extension of Petunia who makes her relive her unhappy childhood as the envious sister of a talented witch, so it's probably both jealousy (or envy) of Lily/Harry and resentment of the burden that DD has imposed on her by making her take care of her sister's child. Part of her may secretly be glad that Lily is dead, but I think part of her still grudgingly loved Lily. Either way, she'd be angry with Lily for "getting herself blown up" and leaving the burden of caring for her son to her sister. There's also the sour grapes factor, which we see later in "The Prince's Tale"--what she can't have wasn't worth having anyway; Hogwarts is just a school for "freaks," and Wizards and Witches are weirdos who endanger or impose on "normal" people. This view would, of course, be reinforced by Godric's Hollow and its aftermath and later by such incidents as Dudley's pig tail and the Ton Tongue Toffee. Petunia would exaggerate the abnormality and the fear that people will talk about the family if they know about Harry as an aspect of her feelings that Vernon can understand and share. She can't expect him to understand that she once wanted to go to Hogwarts herself; most likely she suppresses that memory and denies her jealousy even to herself. Meanwhile, she and Vernon both try to suppress Harry's magic to force him to be "normal" like them and Dudley; perhaps she exaggerates her overindulgence of Dudley, which began before she and Vernon took Harry in, in response to Harry's presence--if Dudley can't be a Wizard like Harry, at least she'll give him everything he wants and more (while simultaneously denying Harry comforts and luxuries) to compensate for his lack of magical powers (which she would perhaps see as rewarding his "normality." At any rate, Petunia's psychology is much more complex than Vernon's, which, IMO, she helped to shape, and she keeps secrets from him (including "that awful boy" and her correspondence as a young girl with DD). > > 5. Piers Polkiss, a rat-faced boy, attends Dudley's birthday outing. He usually holds victims while the other gang members hit them. Who does he remind you of? Any comparisons between Dudley's gang and other gangs we'll see in the series? Carol: It's pretty clearly a reference to or foreshadowing of a certain pointy-nosed Animagus who transforms into a rat. Piers is more overtly a bully than Peter was; he seems mainly to have cheered James (and possibly Sirius) and egged him (them) on by admiring their bullying. Piers also resembles Crabbe and Goyle in being an active participant in the bullying, but in the WW, where Magic is Might even in normal times, the muscle-bound thugs are accomplices rather than the leader of the gang. Maybe JKR is saying that bullying takes many forms, from teasing and tormenting to beating up or subjecting to embarrassing or painful spells. (We can judge for ourselves to what extent Harry himself, Hermione, Hagrid, the Twins, Snape, and Dumbledore become bullies based on Dudley's gang, MWPP, and the ultimate gang of bullies, Voldemort and the Death Eaters (yea, it sounds like the name of a band) and their thug accomplices in DH, the Snatchers. > > 6. The narrator describes the boa constrictor as "the largest snake in the place. It could have wrapped its body twice around Uncle Vernon's car and crushed it into a trash can ." How does this snake compare to the basilisk or to Nagini? In Deathly Hallows (ch 13), Tom Riddle says that snakes find him and whisper to him. How does this affect your reaction to Harry's conversation with the boa constrictor? Carol: In contrast to the other snakes, this "Muggle" snake seems benign. It doesn't even harm the Muggles it terrifies by escaping. Interestingly, the snake doesn't actually talk to Harry, only indicating its responses with its tail and so forth. Maybe Harry isn't speaking Parseltongue here (Piers and Dudley don't indicate that he's hissing). So the incident foreshadows an affinity with snakes but not much more. It doesn't appear that snakes seek Harry out (as they do Tom Riddle and, apparently, Morfin), probably because he doesn't naturally speak Parseltongue--it's not an inherited trait for him, only a power he acquired when the soul bit lodged in his open cut. He can only speak it when he's face to face with a snake (or a symbol of one) and understand it when he hears it. Again, it's not clear whether he's actually speaking Parseltongue here. If he is, he doesn't know it, and the others (or at least Piers, who may be the only one who hears him) reacts to it merely as odd behavior, not understanding its significance or associating it with magic, Dark or otherwise (in marked contrast to both students and staff at Hogwarts). This scene is another instance of JKR giving the reader partial information that will later be expanded on and proven significant. If Harry is indeed speaking Parseltongue, the scene is misleading since he appears to be speaking English, which the snake somehow understands. To answer your last question, the only way in which my reaction changes is that I'm better informed, which paradoxically raises additional questions. My emotional reaction to the slapstick comedy, which I never found funny, and to Harry himself, doesn't change as the result of this knowledge. > 7. Vernon sends Harry to the cupboard after they return home. There he thinks about strangers who have spoken to him on the street-- a tiny man in a violet top hat; a wild-looking old woman dressed all in green; a bald man in a very long purple coat. How did these witches and wizards recognize Harry? Is it just coincidence that they're there? Can we identify any of them? Carol: We know that one of them is Dedalus Diggle, whom we first meet in the Leaky Cauldron. The others must also be Order members who, like Mrs. Figg, secretly keep watch on Harry. Possibly they only recognize him through his resemblance to James and his scar, but I think they must have been secretly spying on the Dursleys for ten years. > 8. The chapter ends with this paragraph, "At school Harry had no one. Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes and broken glasses, and nobody liked to disagree with Dudley's gang." What do these sentences tell us about gangs and odd kids? How does being "odd Harry Potter" affect the way Harry will treat the odd people he'll meet in the coming years? What do you think it was like to go from being odd Harry Potter to the Boy Who Lived? Carol: Great question. For me, the primary significance of "odd Harry Potter" is that those experiences enable him to empathize with Snape, at first only briefly after the illicit visit to the Pensieve (SWM) but later, more profoundly, in "The Prince's Tale." Both are poor, perceived as odd, and victims of bullies. (The identity of the bullies in SWM of course provides an added shock.) He also sees similarities between himself and Tom Riddle, first in CoS and again in the last two books, similarities that serve mostly to point out the differences (both young Riddle and young Severus are foils to Harry in these scenes). I think any kid already knows about bullies and most will identify with Harry, the Cinderella hero, in some respect. I don't know whether kids who bully others would recognize themselves in Dudley and the other bullies. Probably, those kids wouldn't be reading the HP books, anyway. On another note, we immediately see Harry's empathy with Ron, another poor kid who's teased for his appearance (red hair, hand-me-down robes)--a huge difference between young Harry and young James, who comes across as the Draco of his generation. I think Harry's experiences helped him relate to Hagrid, too. (A drunk and sobbing Hagrid points out these similarities, I forget where--both orphans, both outsiders--not to mention Hagrid's exceedingly odd appearance.) Eventually, this capacity for empathy extends to two other "oddball" outsiders, Neville and Luna. Had Harry been a "pampered prince," I doubt that he would have developed this trait or at least not to the same extent. > Potioncat, who would like to thank Carol for her help. Carol: You're very welcome. It was fun. Carol, who has a cold and would stay home from work today if she didn't work at home! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 9 16:27:29 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:27:29 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187756 Alla: > > Well, yes. My point is that all we know is that *strangers* approached Harry, they could have been Order members, they could have been Voldemort spies. I just think that this does not show the strength of the protection. Carol responds: The strangers approached Harry when he was not at 4 Privet Drive. One of them was, as several people have mentioned, definitely the harmless Order member, Dedalus Diggle, who tips his tophat to Harry in the Leaky Cauldron. Harry says to him, "I've seen you before! You bowed to me once in a shop." (SS Am. ed. 69). Given that context (and what we know about Mrs. Figg, who could have described Harry to the other Order members), it seems likely that the other strangers, both of whom recognize Harry but do him no harm, were also Order members watching out for him. Even though Harry's photo had not yet appeared in the Daily Prophet at this point, the lightning-shaped scar appears to be common knowledge. Harry is instantly recognized when he enters the Leaky Cauldron (accompanied by Hagrid), and at least one person who may already intend him harm is present there, Professor Quirrell. It seems certain that if he had wandered Diagon Alley accompanied only by other children or had otherwise shown up in the WW before SS/PS, he would not have been safe even with LV vaporized and many of the DEs in prison. His only protection from, say, Lucius Malfoy is Malfoy's cloak of respectability. It isn't "prudent" to speak ill of Harry Potter when the rest of the WW idolizes him. But suppose that, say Avery or Fenrir Greyback or Yaxley or the Carrows, all of whom were still at large at least up until HBP (Avery was arrested after the MoM fiasco) had found him at large in the WW, with no blood protection or any other protection? (They'd have been after Sirius Black and probably found him as easily as they found Karkaroff if Sirius had taken Harry.) When Harry is spotted by Diggle and the other two clearly harmless strangers (both of them odd characters rather like Mrs. Figg and Dedalus Diggle), he's in the Muggle world where no one except those informed by Dumbledore of his whereabouts could have found him. (As we know, most Witches and Wizards avoid the Muggle world, finding it hard to pose as Muggles.) DD, being secretive, would not have divulged Harry's place of concealment to any but a trusted few. There can be no other reason for those people being (like Diggle and Mrs. Figg) in Little Whinging except that DD sent them there to keep an eye on Harry. Now *if* a DE knew at that point that Harry lived at 4 Privet Drive, he or she would have found out the hard way about the blood protection, IMO. But, clearly, they didn't know it because part of DD's plan was for Harry to grow up in obscurity, not knowing that he was famous. It was like hiding him in plain sight. Now granted, the DEs *could* have harmed Harry when he was at school or playing alone in the neighborhood, but clearly, they didn't know that he was there.What DE would expect DD to hide the Boy Who Lived in a Muggle neighborhood and allow him to attend a Muggle school? If, OTOH, he had been raised by the Weasleys or by a well-to-do family like the Crouches, he would have been in the public view--and unsafe--for his entire childhood. At 4 Privet Drive, he's uncomfortable and mistreated, but he's safe and hidden from prying eyes. I can't prove it, but based on what we know of DD, I'm ready to swear that he would not have divulged Harry's location to anyone outside the Order, and no one else in the WW, including the DEs, had any way of discovering it. Carol, just expressing her own views on the matter From sweenlit at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 17:10:01 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 10:10:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: <4AA71A7D.4080004@moosewise.com> References: <4AA71A7D.4080004@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0909091010t134d0deetb5a5507a035561fc@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187757 Bart: Thanks. Which still makes me wonder how Molly got recruited to sacrifice as much as she did for the 2nd OOP so early on. But that sounds like a job for fanfic. Lynda: Well let's consider: By the time the 2nd OOP is created Molly is not 1) Newly married 2)Very possibly expecting a child 3) Very possibly has young children at home 4) having to cope with protective male siblings. Having lost her brothers and needing to protect her own now older children probably had a lot to do with her decision to join. Offhand, I know many women who would do the same. (Women are fiercely protective when it comes to their kids). Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Sep 9 20:30:01 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 20:30:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol: > Even though Harry's photo had not yet appeared in the Daily Prophet at this point, the lightning-shaped scar appears to be common knowledge. Harry is instantly recognized when he enters the Leaky Cauldron (accompanied by Hagrid), and at least one person who may already intend him harm is present there, Professor Quirrell. Geoff: Bear in mind also that Harry is always being told how like James he is facially. So there must be a proportion of people who knew his father who are around, maybe in the Leaky Cauldron, who would thus recognise him. One is inclined to wonder whether Doris Crockford is one of these. :-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 9 22:54:51 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 22:54:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187759 > Alla: > > I do not remember meeting anybody in the books discussing other choices period except Dumbledore and forgive me if I find his words to be a bit of self justification and suspect. Pippin: We know Fudge's idea of how to protect Harry: surround him with dementors. He also thinks it would take a squad of hit wizards just to cope with Black alone. Then there's Fudge's plan B: deny that any danger exists. Scrimgeour offers Harry the protection of aurors, but won't claim they could hold off Voldemort in person. They couldn't even catch Dumbledore. Hermione thinks Voldemort wouldn't dare invade the Ministry, but when he does, no one can stop him from getting away. Molly fears she can't protect her family from Voldemort, even with the Order to help her. And the clock backs her up. What part of "mortal peril" don't you understand? > Alla: > > Why should he be sorry? Probably because he is not a family member and nobody died and made him in charge of Harry's well-being. You say he is not God, to me it felt that he indeed appointed himself a God and acted like one. > I do not know where Sirius would have taken Harry to, if Dumbledore would not have sent Hagrid. Pippin: James and Lily died and left Dumbledore the only one who understood why Voldemort would want to kill Harry. But explaining about horcruxes and the prophecy would give the power of those things into the hands of people who would misuse them. I don't believe Dumbledore thought the prophecy could make itself come true. I think its magic is to make itself believed. Like other forms of magical persuasion it could be resisted, but Dumbledore knows that most wizards wouldn't try. The certainty of knowledge, like a way of escaping death, would be too tempting. Dumbledore did not know that Sirius was going to be there. Sirius was meant to be in hiding as the secret keeper. He wouldn't be easily found, but if Dumbledore knew where he was supposed to be and Sirius wasn't there, that would have looked even worse. I agree with Mike that it wasn't rash in principle to go after Pettigrew -- but to do so alone and without explaining? That was madness. > > Alla: > > Yes, I absolutely can and as I said upthread this is part of the reason why I find the execution of such choice to be so unconvincing, because Dumbledore adds this "pampered prince" crap to his rhetoric. > > First of all I do not know when Dumbledore says it that he is talking about his own childhood, I took it to mean that the love and care of the wizarding family for him means raising Harry as pampered prince. Pippin: Is it crap that kindness and care should be unconditional but rewards and praise go only to those who have earned them? IMO, Dumbledore (and JKR) think most children need some help learning to regulate their need for approval, just as they need some help learning to regulate their need for food. Praise and favors that he hasn't really earned have a sorry effect on Harry in HBP, just as Dumbledore feared they might, but at least it never became engrained. Alla: And even if Dumbledore means his own childhood, um, no I do not think he was a pampered prince, Pippin: While his family struggled with wayward Aberforth and impaired Ariana, Dumbledore was left free to rack up up every prize of note that Hogwarts offered, and correspond with the most noted wizards of the day. Then, having reached adulthood, he was going to take a year long trip around the world and pursue a brilliant career. Would anyone but a pampered prince think like that? Then, of course, Kendra died, and he found out what life was like for people who weren't being handed the moon on a platter. He was planning to reverse the course of natural death and lead the WW in a revolution all so he could get out from having to care for his family. That's quite a sense of entitlement, don't you think? > Alla: > > Oh? And how do we know that three wizards that approached him meant no harm? Maybe at least one of them was Voldemort's spy and was trying to find ways to get closer to Harry? > Pippin: Living with a loving wizarding family wouldn't have prevented it. Quirrell approached Harry when he was with Hagrid as Carol already pointed out. > Pippin: > So how am I supposed to believe that any DE could have managed it, when Voldemort says so clearly that he himself could not? > > Alla: > > If Voldemort was alive all this time by the way, that would have been another way to convince me of necessity of blood protection. Pippin: He returned to his body in GoF. Thanks to the blood protection, so he says, he never invaded Privet Drive. Meanwhile he or his forces penetrated Azkaban, the Ministry, the Burrow, Grimmauld Place and Hogwarts itself. > > Pippin: > I have no comment on the Avatar series, except to say that it put me to sleep,but comparing what the readers know to what the characters know in a work of fiction is apples and oranges. > > Alla: > > LOL. Sorry, to each their own of course, I am just amused that I finally met the person whom Avatar put to sleep. But could you remind me where I was comparing what characters know to what readers know? Pippin: You are saying, if I may summarize your argument, that you cannot believe Dumbledore made a moral decision to place Harry at Privet Drive because you are not convinced that Harry was really in danger. But it seems to me that the morality of Dumbledore's decision can only be judged by whether *Dumbledore* thought Harry was really in danger. Since JKR makes it clear that Dumbledore's perspective is not shared by the reader, we can't judge his state of mind until we've shifted our perspective to match what we know about his. Dumbledore had to live through ten years of Voldemort killing whoever he targets, at will. JKR doesn't let us know directly what that's like, but it obviously colors what Dumbledore thinks he can and cannot do, and what Voldemort is likely to attempt. We get a glimpse of Voldemort's certainty that no one can stop him as he bears down on Godric's Hollow. I thought you were saying that if JKR wanted us to think that Dumbledore had made a good choice she shouldn't have left us any doubts remaining about his morality or she should have made the need for the blood protection more obvious. I don't see how she could have done that without making Dumbledore a more conventional character or the blood protection weaker. As Sun Tzu says, the best battle is the one you don't have to fight. Dumbledore never had to fight a battle for Privet Drive. Even when the DE's are nearby, Moody says they can't approach while the spell lasts. Since he says that from inside Privet Drive, it's clear from someone other than Dumbledore that the blood protection magic knows the difference between Order members and Death Eaters. And as sad experience showed, no other spell had that power. Pippin From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Wed Sep 9 22:23:52 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 22:23:52 -0000 Subject: 2iC (WAS Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187760 Potioncat: > However, I disagree that she is his second in command. She is his deputy headmistress at Hogwarts, but not in the OoP. Come to think of it, I don't think he ever has a second in command in his war against LV--and that was part of the problem. > Zfshiruba: I think that was most of the problem. Dumbledore has huge issues with delegation; always one of the deadliest traps of leadership. He also falls into the trap of keeping his own counsel. I think a lot of mistakes Dumbledore made could have been avoided if he had someone who could be a real sounding board; someone who he trusted and whose opinions and knowledge he respected. It would also need to be someone who didn't look at him like the he was the 2nd coming of Merlin. Someone who could be there whispering "Remember you too are mortal." Zfshiruba, who wonders if Dumbledore looked up to or was mentored by Flamel similar to Dumbledore's relationship with Harry. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 10 00:21:51 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 00:21:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187761 > Pippin: > We know Fudge's idea of how to protect Harry: surround him with dementors. He also thinks it would take a squad of hit wizards just to cope with Black alone. Then there's Fudge's plan B: deny that any danger exists. Scrimgeour offers Harry the protection of aurors, but won't claim they could hold off Voldemort in person. They couldn't even catch Dumbledore. > > Hermione thinks Voldemort wouldn't dare invade the Ministry, but when he does, no one can stop him from getting away. > > Molly fears she can't protect her family from Voldemort, even with the Order to help her. And the clock backs her up. What part of "mortal peril" don't you understand? Alla: Probably the part where due to his sufferings at Dursleys Harry actually avoided the mortal peril. I was asking for anybody else discussing choices to protect baby Harry besides those that great Albus suggested. Because you know, when Harry goes to Hogwarts we all know how much the protection mattered (not much that is). Harry faced Quirrel!Mort, little Tommy, supposed murderer, who was not, real Voldemort, etc, etc, etc. It is the totality of circumstances which I find pretty damning for Dumbledore as person making good, moral choice, but I will address it more in another post. >> > Alla: > > > > Yes, I absolutely can and as I said upthread this is part of the reason why I find the execution of such choice to be so unconvincing, because Dumbledore adds this "pampered prince" crap to his rhetoric. > > > > First of all I do not know when Dumbledore says it that he is talking about his own childhood, I took it to mean that the love and care of the wizarding family for him means raising Harry as pampered prince. > > Pippin: > Is it crap that kindness and care should be unconditional but rewards and praise go only to those who have earned them? > > IMO, Dumbledore (and JKR) think most children need some help learning to regulate their need for approval, just as they need some help learning to regulate their need for food. Praise and favors that he hasn't really earned have a sorry effect on Harry in HBP, just as Dumbledore feared they might, but at least it never became engrained. Alla: I can't help but ask - so the part of unconditional kindness and care applies to how Dursleys treated Harry how exactly? > > > Alla: > And even if Dumbledore means his own childhood, um, no I do not think he was a pampered prince, > > Pippin: > While his family struggled with wayward Aberforth and impaired Ariana, Dumbledore was left free to rack up up every prize of note that Hogwarts offered, and correspond with the most noted wizards of the day. Then, having reached adulthood, he was going to take a year long trip around the world and pursue a brilliant career. Would anyone but a pampered prince think like that? Alla: If in your mind incredibly gifted student who wants to pursue his education is a pampered prince, then sure I agree he is a pampered prince. For me to make such conclusion I need to see more of Dumbledore's childhood, because to me pampered prince is something entirely different (and boy do I hate this phrase, sorry). Pippin: > Then, of course, Kendra died, and he found out what life was like for people who weren't being handed the moon on a platter. Alla: That's just it, I do not feel like he was being handed moon on the platter, I feel that he was just that talented, I do not see his parents spoiling him, etc. Pippin: > He was planning to reverse the course of natural death and lead the WW in a revolution all so he could get out from having to care for his family. That's quite a sense of entitlement, don't you think? Alla: Yes, still does not necessarily mean to me that he had a childhood of pampered prince. > > > > Alla: > > > > Oh? And how do we know that three wizards that approached him meant no harm? Maybe at least one of them was Voldemort's spy and was trying to find ways to get closer to Harry? > > > > Pippin: > Living with a loving wizarding family wouldn't have prevented it. Quirrell approached Harry when he was with Hagrid as Carol already pointed out. Alla: And I did not say that it would have prevented it necessarily, but the opposite is true too IMO. > > Alla: > > > > If Voldemort was alive all this time by the way, that would have been another way to convince me of necessity of blood protection. > > Pippin: > He returned to his body in GoF. Thanks to the blood protection, so he says, he never invaded Privet Drive. Meanwhile he or his forces penetrated Azkaban, the Ministry, the Burrow, Grimmauld Place and Hogwarts itself. Alla: And if Harry would needed to go to Dursleys when Voldemort returned to his body I would have totally understand that. > Pippin: > You are saying, if I may summarize your argument, that you cannot believe Dumbledore made a moral decision to place Harry at Privet Drive because you are not convinced that Harry was really in danger. Alla: Not exactly, I am saying that I cannot believe that Dumbledore made a moral decision because : a) I am not convinced that Harry was in such danger that could not have been fought in other place; (mind you it is totally possible, just not 100% sure) b) I am not convinced that the danger (which was certainly present) was of such degree that it was worth it for Harry to endure Dursleys; c) I am not convinced that protection actually **worked** at Privet Drive at least before Voldemort came back; d) I am not seeing that it was worth for Harry to suffer at Dursleys even if he was protected there hundred percent, if he still was in mortal danger everywhere else including Hogwarts. Meaning, that maybe it was worth taking chances for him to stay with loving family, where his magic including fighting magic would have developed significantly and just as he was fighting death at Hogwarts, if needed he would be fighting it off at home. e) All of the above does not apply if you agree that Dumbledore is a despicable bastard ;) Pippin: > But it seems to me that the morality of Dumbledore's decision can only be judged by whether *Dumbledore* thought Harry was really in danger. Since JKR makes it clear that Dumbledore's perspective is not shared by the reader, we can't judge his state of mind until we've shifted our perspective to match what we know about his. Alla: I disagree. Dumbledore's complete perspective is not shared by the reader, but part of it is. And sorry for sound like a parrot that part (pampered prince one) I at least find pretty despicable and unforgiving. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 10 00:35:14 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 00:35:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOI... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187762 > > Alla: > > My point is that all we know is that *strangers* approached > > Harry, they could have been Order members, they could have > > been Voldemort spies. > > Goddlefrood: > > We can say with some certainty that one of the three was Daedalus > Diggle, as noted by zanooda uplist a way. The other two could have > bben neutral or as above. Alla: Right, sorry, of course. I saw Zanooda's post and I believe in my initial responses said that one of them could have been a spy or something, or at least was planning to say it. As I said in another post I am just thinking about the totality of circumstances. Could the other two be Order members as well? Of course! I just do not know that. And then you add this to me not seeing that some DE was looking for Harry and failed and when you add your observation below that protection works only around the house, I wonder if it was worth it and whether Dumbledore even bothered to think about it. > Goddlefrood: > > It only works immediately around the house, iirc, otherwise the > Seven Potters would have been unnecessary when leaving the same. > Out in the town, as Harry was in the case under discussion, the > protection was, IMO meaningless and therefore, it has to be said > that the chances are that the two unknown wizards were not hostile > to Harry. That they seemed friendly from his point of view should > further reinforce the idea that they were not anti-Harry. > Alla: Sure, I think it is likely. And again, if protection was meaningless around the town, why can't Harry be without it? Certainly it did not look to me that he was protected in Hogwarts much, I mean was enough mortal peril, me thinks. Of course again, we would not have story otherwise, but I do not care about that for this argument. From bart at moosewise.com Thu Sep 10 01:24:02 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:24:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 2iC (WAS Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AA85532.3090309@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187763 zfshiruba wrote: > Someone who could be there whispering "Remember you too are mortal." > Bart: Well, Sevvy did that pretty well, though he was a bit to smart to do a Sir Kay. Molly had no problem disagreeing with DD; that may have been a reason why she seemed to be COO. Bart From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Thu Sep 10 01:39:43 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 01:39:43 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187764 Potioncat: > 1. "Don't ask questions--that was the first rule for a quiet life with the Dursleys." It seems Harry and DD learned similar rules. Harry doesn't ask questions; Dumbledore doesn't tell more than he has to. Do you think JKR is merely withholding information from the reader as a plot device, or is communication breakdown also a true theme within the HP series? I think that communication breakdown is a major theme of the series in and of itself, but I also think that it's covered in a larger theme of mistrust. I think the mistrust theme is shown through these communication breakdowns, through Harry's ingrained (via Dursleys) inability to go to adults with his problems, to his fights with Ron and Hermione, etc. I also think that the mistrust and communication breakdown is symptomatic of Harry's Black and White/Us and Them/Good and Evil mentality. I also really like the way you phrased this question. "Harry and DD learned," because I think that Dumbledore's excessive tendency toward keeping his own counsel is, like Harry's own secretiveness, a behavior learned in childhood. His long time exposure to Ariana may have made him extremely wary of expressing strong emotions, and repressing those would have created a "bottle it up" personality, not just with his emotions, but also his thoughts, which manifests as secretiveness. > 2. The only thing Harry likes about his appearance is the thin scar shaped like a bolt of lightning on his forehead. Why do you think he likes it? How do you feel about that piece of information? Do you think the soul bit communicated with Baby Harry at one time, or does the soul bit have its own emotions that Harry sometimes feels? The Dursleys tried very hard to crush independent thought in Harry and created a very negative sort of individuality for him. Harry is very different from the other kids at school in many ways, but the scar is the only different thing about him (that he knows of) that wasn't a result of the Dursleys' dislike. I imagine that's why he likes the scar as a child; he's going to be different anyways, it might as well be for something he likes. Of course, I also think he likes the scar as a child because of the delicious irony, considering how much he grows to hate it. > 4. Why does Petunia treat Harry so badly--jealousy or resentment or something else? Does Harry's accidental magic remind Petunia of her childhood with Lily and Sev? Now that you know about the childhood of this trio, how do you feel about the way the Dursleys and Snape treat Harry? I think that besides the jealousy, Petunia dislikes Harry from the start because of her grief and because I think Dumbledore threatened her in that letter. Petunia strikes me as exactly the kind of person who would respond to threats with petty, semi passive-aggressive revenge. Alla: Hm, how do I feel about the ways Dursleys and Snape treat Harry? Did you even have to ask? I think that they are mean and rotten "people" for treating innocent like this. Do I think that their childhood somehow justifies or excuses what they did to Harry? No, of course I do not. Does it make it more understandable? No, I do not think so. Zfshiruba: Understandable as in Excusable or Forgivable? Definitely not. Understandable as in explains some of the psychological motivations that allow the characters to justify themselves and reminds readers that no one is born evil and that everyone thinks of themselves as the protagonist of their own stories. Yeah, I do think that. > > 8. The chapter ends with this paragraph, "At school Harry had no one. Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes and broken glasses, and nobody liked to disagree with Dudley's gang." What do these sentences tell us about gangs and odd kids? How does being "odd Harry Potter" affect the way Harry will treat the odd people he'll meet in the coming years? What do you think it was like to go from being odd Harry Potter to the Boy Who Lived? To an extent it seems like he's still odd Harry Potter, it's just a different kind of odd. Harry, I'm sure would much rather be neither. From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Thu Sep 10 02:40:38 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 02:40:38 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187765 > "pippin_999" wrote: > I agree with Mike that it wasn't rash in principle to go after Pettigrew -- but to do so alone and without explaining? That was madness. Zfshiruba: Of course it was madness. Two of the three people he cared about more than anything else in the world had just been brutally murdered because someone he trusted, someone he convinced them to trust with their lives, had betrayed them. I defy anyone to act sanely in those circumstances; especially in an armed culture, which is what the Wizarding World is. > Pippin: > Is it crap that kindness and care should be unconditional but rewards and praise go only to those who have earned them? > > IMO, Dumbledore (and JKR) think most children need some help learning to regulate their need for approval, just as they need some help learning to regulate their need for food. Praise and favors that he hasn't really earned have a sorry effect on Harry in HBP, just as Dumbledore feared they might, but at least it never became engrained. Zfshiruba: So no praise, no reason to think of oneself as important, no knowledge, only a hope, that someone cares for you, being told every day that you are not really human, not growing up believing that your life is valuable. You really think that that is a better state for a child than what you term "pampered prince" ? > Pippin: > > He [Dumbledore] was planning to reverse the course of natural death and lead the WW in a revolution all so he could get out from having to care for his family. That's quite a sense of entitlement, don't you think? Zfshiruba: No, I think it's the ambitious dream of a desperately terrified escapist. You think kids from troubled homes can't dream big? You'd be amazed how many perfectionists come from troubled homes. Tom Riddle went after the prizes of note that Hogwarts offered too. A brilliant career; a long trip around the world, there are kids who want that every day of their lives because it grows out of a desperate need to get away from what they grew up with. Do you think there would be so many Rags to Riches stories if they didn't occasionally happen?! Yes someone other than a pampered prince would think like that! I think like that! And while I will freely admit to being a little bit spoiled; I do work for my dreams. I have not had life handed to me. I did not have a perfect life; I did not get everything I wanted when I wanted it! A sense of entitlement is believing you should have all that stuff without being prepared to work for it! A sense of entitlement is what Draco, who wants the world to kneel at his feet but refuses to look at the costs, who can't bring himself to actually take the steps to getting what he wants, has! Growing up with someone like Ariana, either you make family all important, you devote yourself to her or you get out of there as fast as you can and you try to never look back, because you feel that if you do, you will drown yourself and your dreams will be swallowed, shattered, and destroyed by her weight dragging you down. It's not a pretty feeling; it's a rather ugly one, but it is that and not a sense of entitlement that drives your ambitions, your dreams, your big ideas. Zfshiruba, who is getting really sick of the phrase pampered prince. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Sep 10 11:49:54 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:49:54 -0000 Subject: Parseltongue (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187766 > Zara: > For me personally, this scene established the non-sinister nature of Parseltongue. Individual Parselmouths of our later acquanitance may have been sinister, but this scene irrevocably marked the gift itself as "not dark" in my mind. It was such a friendly, normal conversation for two creatures to have. Potioncat: I hadn't thought of that. Certainly, I used to argue that Parselmouths didn't have to be Dark Wizards; DD makes that statement himself in HBP. But this time the description of the snake took hold; it's huge. Imagining such a large snake raising up and facing Harry, on the heels of seeing HBP trailers with Tom Riddle's "I can speak to snakes. They find me." and following the events in the Shrieking shack---well, this time the whole episode gave me goosebumps. It seems to me the snake did "find" Harry. The snake approached Harry--how did it know? Of course, I don't think Harry is a Dark Wizard, and no snakes approached him all that time in the woods. But I have a better appreciation of the school-wide reaction to Harry's Parseltongue moment at the dueling club. DD talks about Parseltongue after showing Harry the memory of his first meeting with young Tom. He said he wasn't so bothered at the time by Tom's ability to speak to snakes. Then he makes the comment 'We both know both the great and the good can speak Parseltongue.' (paraphrased) I still think DD means the great(me-DD) and the good (you--Harry). DD has also commented on Harry's goodness or great ability to love. I was never as impressed as DD was. But when you consider that Harry had this Horcrux in his head; that it obviously had an effect on him; and he had a pretty poor upraising---it is amazing that he turned out so well. Think what the locket and diary were able to do! From sherriola at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 15:46:46 2009 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:46:46 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOI... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45726DB70A0C48F19032E1EA36E6E81B@Pensieve> No: HPFGUIDX 187767 Alla: Well, yes. My point is that all we know is that *strangers* approached Harry, they could have been Order members, they could have been Voldemort spies. I just think that this does not show the strength of the protection. Melissa: I wish JKR had let up see the strength of the protection (I imagine it being a huge bug zapper :-) ) but since she doesn't its enough for me to believe that it is strong. . especially since LV knows that he cannot get to him there. Sherry now: I guess it didn't matter that his uncle could still abuse him though. Just as long as no dark wizard could hurt him, who cared if his uncle abused him? I'm really with Alla on this blood protection thing. Because we never see it do anything, and because Harry was clearly mistreated and abused by his relatives, I have no confidence in or respect for the blood protection. Except as a plot device to give us a boy who would have had such a miserable life, that he'd wholeheartedly love and embrace the new world, when he learns he's a wizard. Sherry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 10 16:01:29 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:01:29 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOI... In-Reply-To: <45726DB70A0C48F19032E1EA36E6E81B@Pensieve> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187768 > Sherry now: > I guess it didn't matter that his uncle could still abuse him though. Just > as long as no dark wizard could hurt him, who cared if his uncle abused him? > I'm really with Alla on this blood protection thing. Because we never see > it do anything, and because Harry was clearly mistreated and abused by his > relatives, I have no confidence in or respect for the blood protection. > Except as a plot device to give us a boy who would have had such a miserable > life, that he'd wholeheartedly love and embrace the new world, when he > learns he's a wizard. Alla: Do you know what else sort of bugs me about blood protection thing? Why is it blood protection instead of love protection? I mean obviously the answer is that writer chose to do so, but if we are looking on the symbolic protection of mother, who gave up her life for her child, one would think that it makes sense for protection to increase ten fold, if Harry is raised by the people who love him, right? I mean, seriously be it Molly or Sirius or any other people who love and care for him, why would not their love count more to increase Lily's protection than Petunia's blood while it obviously does not even work against her jerk husband from whose hands Harry had to duck in order not to get hit when he was younger as Harry remembers in HBP. Was it in HBP? JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 10 16:11:08 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:11:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187769 Alla: Do I think that their childhood somehow justifies or excuses what they did to Harry? No, of course I do not. Does it make it more understandable? No, I do not think so. Zfshiruba: Understandable as in Excusable or Forgivable? Definitely not. Understandable as in explains some of the psychological motivations that allow the characters to justify themselves and reminds readers that no one is born evil and that everyone thinks of themselves as the protagonist of their own stories. Yeah, I do think that. Alla: Oh of course. I can totally go along with that, it is just as I wrote upthread while for Snape I can see it as a reason in the sense that you describe here, for Petunia I was initially truly having trouble figuring out even the reason which means what you describe here. But I guess her jealousy of Lily being transferred to Harry counts as such, I was just having trouble seeing it. I am sure Tom Riddle had plenty of justifications as to why he killed his father and I am sure all of them were valid in his head. JMO, Alla From sherriola at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 16:12:34 2009 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:12:34 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOI... In-Reply-To: References: <45726DB70A0C48F19032E1EA36E6E81B@Pensieve> Message-ID: <525DE3ABBD98457DB4347D2BB4ECCE0D@Pensieve> No: HPFGUIDX 187770 > Sherry now: > I guess it didn't matter that his uncle could still abuse him though. > Just as long as no dark wizard could hurt him, who cared if his uncle abused him? > I'm really with Alla on this blood protection thing. Because we never > see it do anything, and because Harry was clearly mistreated and > abused by his relatives, I have no confidence in or respect for the blood protection. > Except as a plot device to give us a boy who would have had such a > miserable life, that he'd wholeheartedly love and embrace the new > world, when he learns he's a wizard. Alla: Do you know what else sort of bugs me about blood protection thing? Why is it blood protection instead of love protection? I mean obviously the answer is that writer chose to do so, but if we are looking on the symbolic protection of mother, who gave up her life for her child, one would think that it makes sense for protection to increase ten fold, if Harry is raised by the people who love him, right? I mean, seriously be it Molly or Sirius or any other people who love and care for him, why would not their love count more to increase Lily's protection than Petunia's blood while it obviously does not even work against her jerk husband from whose hands Harry had to duck in order not to get hit when he was younger as Harry remembers in HBP. Was it in HBP? Sherry: Wow, that had never occurred to me before, but it makes sense. Why not love increasing the protection from Lily? It was her love for Harry that caused him to survive in the first place. Hmmm, that's an interesting thought. Too bad I don't write fan fiction! Yes, it was HBP. When Harry is going downstairs to meet Dumbledore, he thinks that experience had taught him to stay clear of the reach of Uncle Vernon's arm. Sherry From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Sep 10 23:20:19 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 23:20:19 -0000 Subject: Lily, Sev and Toony (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187771 > Alla: > > But I guess her jealousy of Lily being transferred to Harry counts as such, I was just having trouble seeing it. > Potioncat: I think there is a complicated dynamic between Petunia and Lily. The narrator says the Dursleys pretend Petunia does not have a sister. Vernon knows there was a son, but does not remember Harrry's name, and he does not recognise the wizarding fold as such. Yet, Petunia sent Lily a vase as a present (Christmas prestent? DH) I don't know if Petunia thought it was lovely and Lily thought it was horrid, of if Petunia knew perfectly well that Lily wouldn't like it. But she is still in contact with Lily when Harry is about a year old. We also know she expresses disgust at magic now, but wanted to go to Hogwarts so badly she sent a letter to DD. She is truly conflicted. Enter magical Harry. I would think all of Petunia's unhappy memories of Sev and Lily must have come back. She was the odd one in that group, the victim of their magic. Lily was performing intentional, wandless magic--so I'm not sure if Petunia understands that wizarding children cannot always control magic. Though I still don't understand the intensity of Petunia's treatment of Harry. As for Snape--I know he hasn't entered the picture yet, but he was a part of Lily and Petunia's childhood. I've never been able to understand how he could love Lily so truly, madly, deeply yet treat Harry so badly. Not only that, he knows Petunia. He must have some idea of what Harry has experienced. I realize James is a part of it; and I wonder if Snape would have felt differently about Harry if Lily had married a non-Marauder. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Sep 11 12:11:11 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:11:11 -0000 Subject: Keeping Secrets (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187772 > Carol responds: > I think it's both. JKR is secretive, too--she likes to withhold information to surprise the reader or to give us partial information (a la Dumbledore and Snape) so the that we "know" what Harry does and sometimes leap to the same wrong conclusions. Sometimes the partial information is just foreshadowing, as in the reference to "young Sirius Black" in chapter one. But I think that the breakdown or failure of communication is also a persistent motif--withheld information, misinformation, interruptions just as someone is about to reveal important information. Just to take one example, look at Harry's and Hermione's interpretation of Tonks's and Mrs. Weasley's behavior in HBP. Hermione thinks that Tonks has survivor's guilt; Harry thinks that Mrs. Weasley is trying to interest Bill in Tonks and that Tonks was in love with Sirius (the big, four-footed Patronus must be Padfoot, right? Wrong.) Anyway, that's just one example of many throughout the books. To give an example more closely related to SS/PS, Harry later hears DD tell Petunia "We have corresponded" and thinks he's referring solely to the Howler. The reader at that point knows about the letter left with baby Harry on the doorstep, but neither Harry nor the reader yet knows about the correspondence that will be revealed in "The Prince's Tale." Potioncat: I didn't snip of this because I love the examples--they've reminded me of why this series was so much fun. We were always second guessing everying because we could never be sure if a character was telling the truth, or the truth as he knew it, or if the character was really who we thought he was. Great fun. Several years ago a thread was running about the comparison between JKR and Agatha Christie. Two books were recommended at that time, and I'm goinng to re-recommend them now. The first is Christie's autobiography. It gives a good look at how an author sees the process of writing and how she reacts to fans' interpretations. The other is one of her mysteries, "The Murder of Roger Ackroyd." Something about the book aroused cries of outrage from fans. (But I'm not telling.) That book particularly reminds me of JKR. I'm not sure if she ever read Christie, but they are very similar. Getting back to canon discussion, I'll pull a line from Carol's comments, "But I think that the breakdown or failure of communication is also a persistent motif..." Motif! That's the word! Not a theme really. We used to bemoan and complain that Harry never asked the right person the right question---or hardly ever asked questions at all. Yet JRK tells us very very early that Harry learned not to ask questions. On those rare occasions when he asked a question, he usually got the wrong answer. I think JKR did a very good job of keeping "her" secrets, and of giving the characters the right backgrounds and motivations for their secrecy and behaviors. So whether we approve or not, we can understand where DD gets his secrecy, why Snape automatically distrusts Harry's actions, and why Harry doesn't go to adults. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Sep 11 17:53:51 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 17:53:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOI... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187773 > Alla: > Do you know what else sort of bugs me about blood protection thing? Why is it blood protection instead of love protection? I mean obviously the answer is that writer chose to do so, but if we are looking on the symbolic protection of mother, who gave up her life for her child, one would think that it makes sense for protection to increase ten fold, if Harry is raised by the people who love him, right? Pippin: IMO, it's blood protection instead of love protection because Harry's sacrifice must surpass Lily's. Mother love can be a beautiful metaphor for spiritual love, but it isn't the same thing and doesn't have the same power. Unlike Harry, Lily thought only of saving her child -- she didn't extend her protection to anyone else. That's symbolized, IMO, by the fact that only someone who had a blood relationship to Harry could carry on the protection when she was gone. That's a big theme in the series, that if we think some lives are more worth saving than others, we ultimately work harm to the people we wanted to save. Alla: > I mean, seriously be it Molly or Sirius or any other people who love and care for him, why would not their love count more to increase Lily's protection than Petunia's blood while it obviously does not even work against her jerk husband from whose hands Harry had to duck in order not to get hit when he was younger as Harry remembers in HBP. Was it in HBP? Pippin: Canon doesn't say that Vernon hit Harry, only that Harry had learned to stay out of his reach. If someone had a habit of grabbing me and shoving me around, as Vernon does to Harry on several occasions, I wouldn't need to get hit to want to keep my distance. If the blood protection worked in an obvious way, it wouldn't make sense that Harry doesn't know about it. I think JKR gives us a glimpse of how it worked when Vernon tries to strangle Harry and lets go suddenly as if he'd been shocked. It could have been Harry's own magic kicking in, of course, but that's the point. If anything like that happened in the past, it was subtle enough that it was just another strange thing that happened around Harry. Look at what happens when Harry's protection starts working against Voldemort in DH. Voldemort can still scream insults and bluster, he can push people around with magic and make threats. Not a pleasant person to be around by any means, but the worst of what he can do is being blocked. Pippin From sweenlit at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 18:23:16 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:23:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Keeping Secrets (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43e41d1e0909111123w55dd4413m85ea06fa67905823@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187774 Potioncat: I think JKR did a very good job of keeping "her" secrets, and of giving the characters the right backgrounds and motivations for their secrecy and behaviors. So whether we approve or not, we can understand where DD gets his secrecy, why Snape automatically distrusts Harry's actions, and why Harry doesn't go to adults. Lynda: She did indeed do a good job of secret keeping. I realized early on that this was one of the recurring motifs/themes and since I recognized early as well that DD was a master manipulator, learning his secrets was just part of the whole story to me. And since I'm well steeped in Arthuriana, the added quest, the one for the Deathly Hallows didn't bother me. I expected something of the sort, in fact, from early on. I just didn't know what it would be. I will say I see secret keeping as a theme rather than simply a motif, however. It's too prevelent too not be a theme. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Sep 12 03:18:08 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 03:18:08 -0000 Subject: Keeping Secrets (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0909111123w55dd4413m85ea06fa67905823@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187775 >From post 187745 Carol: But I think that the breakdown or failure of communication is also a persistent motif--withheld information, misinformation, interruptions just as someone is about to reveal important information. From post 187774 Lynda: She did indeed do a good job of secret keeping. I realized early on that this was one of the recurring motifs/themes and since I recognized early as well that DD was a master manipulator, learning his secrets was just part of the whole story to me. snip I will say I see secret keeping as a theme rather than simply a motif, however. It's too prevalent too not be a theme. Potioncat: So is secrecy/failure of communication a motif or a theme in JKR's work? Here are 2 definitions from UNC, Pembroke http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/general/glossary.htm#a motif (moh-TEEF): a recurring object, concept, or structure in a work of literature A motif is important because it allows one to see main points and themes that the author is trying to express, in order that one might be able to interpret the work more accurately. theme (theem): a common thread or repeated idea that is incorporated throughout a literary work. A theme is a thought or idea the author presents to the reader that may be deep, difficult to understand, or even moralistic. Generally, a theme has to be extracted as the reader explores the passages of a work .The ability to recognize a theme is important because it allows the reader to understand part of the author's purpose in writing the book. From sweenlit at gmail.com Sat Sep 12 06:03:11 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 23:03:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Keeping Secrets (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: References: <43e41d1e0909111123w55dd4413m85ea06fa67905823@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0909112303k6f5cc163jefb5877ee8886f13@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187776 Potioncat: So is secrecy/failure of communication a motif or a theme in JKR's work? Lynda: I think so. Look at Lupin's blind trust of DD. Look at the effect that DD's hidden past had on Harry, and then consider that for Harry, this was par for the course, so to speak. The only thing was, he had come to trust DD completely, had no idea of a secret in his past, thought DD was different than other adults he had known. Drawing from real life, I have a friend who from outward appearances grew up in a normal family: father, mother, two younger brothers. Except that the life that her parents lived and so therefore that she lived was far different than the one they presented to the outside world. My friend, now married with two small children of her own nearly lost her own family because she never told her husband about their secret life. He knew, going into the marriage that she had been raised differently. He knew about the being shut into a closet for lengthy periods of time and about some of the psychological problems she has, but he didn't know how extreme the abuse was and when it started catching up with her he was on the brink of leaving her before she started talking to him and they were able to mend their relationship and I think I can see a parallel to this in the HP books. Of course, in fiction, a healing of potential psychological trauma is more easily affected than in real life. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 12 16:13:18 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:13:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187777 Alla wrote: > I was asking for anybody else discussing choices to protect baby Harry besides those that great Albus suggested. Carol responds: I don't think that would be in character for Dumbledore, who never discusses anything with anybody. And while I do think that the blood protection was necessary and served a purpose, I agree with you that DD's tendency to make decisions wholly on his own is a character flaw. However, I also understand completely why he didn't share the responsibility for Harry's protection with Sirius Black, who not only was a known risk taker whom even Harry later considers to be a reckless godfather, he was--DD had every reason to think--the man who had betrayed Harry's parents to their deaths. I can also see why he didn't share everything with young Snape, so recently a Death Eater, or Hagrid, who can't keep a secret to save his life. I'm not sure why he didn't share more with McGonagall. Too emotional, maybe, or maybe she already had too much on her plate, as DD likes to say? But obviously he wasn't going to allow Harry's godfather, whose legal rights are extremely unclear, a chance to kill Harry after (seemingly) revealing the Secret of the Potters' hiding place to Voldemort for that very purpose. And Black immediately "proves" DD's judgment correct by (supposedly) killing thirteen people in front of about fifty witnesses. Alla: > Because you know, when Harry goes to Hogwarts we all know how much the protection mattered (not much that is). Harry faced Quirrel!Mort, little Tommy, supposed murderer, who was not, real Voldemort, etc, etc, etc. It is the totality of circumstances which I find pretty damning for Dumbledore as person making good, moral choice, but I will address it more in another post. Carol responds: But none of that has anything to do with the blood protection on Privet Drive, which was primarily intended to protect him while he went to school. And I don't see how Harry's facing Diary!Tom or Sirius Black was Dumbledore's fault, nor did he know that the Tri-Wizard Cup was a portkey that would take Harry straight to Voldemort (though I'll grant him a share of blame in the confrontation with Quirrell and the TWT, which I suppose he intends partly as a test of Harry's courage and resourcefulness). > Alla: > > And even if Dumbledore means his own childhood, um, no I do not think he was a pampered prince, > > Carol: I'm not sure that Dumbledore was referring to himself though his own childhood certainly illustrates the dangers of too much praise and freedom and too high an opinion of himself. Possibly he's thinking of James, who was both pampered and arrogant and, as far as I can tell, never developed the compassion and empathy that Harry develops throughout the series, beginning with Ron (in marked contrast to James's treatment of another boy from a poor family, Severus). Alla: > > If in your mind incredibly gifted student who wants to pursue his education is a pampered prince, then sure I agree he is a pampered prince. For me to make such conclusion I need to see more of Dumbledore's childhood, because to me pampered prince is something entirely different (and boy do I hate this phrase, sorry). Carol: Just curious. Why do you hate the phrase? I think it applies beautifully to James and possibly to Draco and Dudley. I'm not sure about DD himself except that he certainly developed a high opinion of himself because his talents "entitled" him to do whatever he pleased and ignore his responsibilities (in contrast to the less talented but stubborn and determined Aberforth). > Alla: > > That's just it, I do not feel like he was being handed moon on the platter, I feel that he was just that talented, I do not see his parents spoiling him, etc. Carol: His father was imprisoned when he was quite young, so he could not have been much of an influence, and his mother had her hands full with Ariana, whom Albus never had to take care of. She didn't even see a danger in his friendship with Gellert Grindelwald, whom she might have distrusted if she had been more observant. It's not a matter of spoiling and pampering so much as simply not supervising him or having any degree of control over him. And they must not have been poor if he intended to go on the Grand Tour when he finished school. I think as long as he kept the family's dark secrets, he could do anything else he pleased. Wild Aberforth doesn't seem to have had any supervision, either. (Not that I wholly blame Kendra; she was in a difficult position given what would have happened to Ariana if the secret had come out.) But, as I said, I'm not sure that the "pampered prince" remark applies to DD. His main concern (aside from Harry's safety) is that Harry's hiding place not be known to the WW at large; his secondary consideration is that fame not go prematurely to Harry's head. We see what happened to his father, who became an arrogant bully as the combined result of indulgent parents and renown (within Hogwarts) as a Quidditch player. Harry, in contrast, has learned humility and endurance of hardship from an early age. Granted, they're the result of mistreatment, but they serve him well in years to come. I don't think that James would have made a good Chosen One. He probably wouldn't have survived an encounter with Voldemort at age eleven or fourteen (setting aside what happened to him later). > > > Alla: > > > > > > If Voldemort was alive all this time by the way, that would have been another way to convince me of necessity of blood protection. > > > > Pippin: > > He returned to his body in GoF. Thanks to the blood protection, so he says, he never invaded Privet Drive. Meanwhile he or his forces penetrated Azkaban, the Ministry, the Burrow, Grimmauld Place and Hogwarts itself. Carol responds: At the time, DD was worried about loyal DEs who were nearly as evil and dangerous as LV himself, and, of course, he didn't know when a loyal DE or a dupe like Quirrell would come along to help restore him to a body. I wish it were clearer that the blood protection protects him against the DEs. The secrecy of his whereabouts may have been equally important, as well as the belief of DEs like Lucius Malfoy that LV was dead and the death or arrest of the most violent DEs. Imagine if Bellatrix or Dolohov had gone after Harry. I agree with you that we need more evidence of the effectiveness of the blood protection. One problem, for me, is that the blood protection seems to prevent the Dementors from returning, but it turns out that they were sent by Umbridge, not Voldemort, so maybe it was only Harry's Patronus Charm that prevented them from returning. So it's true that nothing happens to him (other than a few blows from Vernon or Dudley and neglect from Petunia) at the Dursleys. It's also true that DD, the Order, and LV himself all believe that LV can't harm him there. But the only "proof" we have is that the DEs don't attack while the protection lasts but they zoom in on Harry and the clones the moment the charm breaks. If only LV had tried and failed to attack him at the Dursleys and we'd know for sure that it's effective. As it is, we just have to take the word of all the characters. (There's also the blood protection within Harry that prevented Quirrell from harming him, presumably because Quirrell was possessed by LV at the time and/or because he was acting on LV's orders. So if the blood protection saved him from the AK in the first place and saved him from Quirrell, in theory it should work at 4 Privet Drive. But, then, it should also have saved him from the Basilisk, and that required Fawkes's Phoenix tears. Sigh. In this instance, I think it's best to go along with the characters and believe that it's the best protection that DD or anyone else can provide. I do think he's much safer at the Dursleys than he would have been if he were visible to the WW at large from an early age and knew who he was (we know what happens all too often to child prodigies and child stars) and much safer than he would have been with Sirius, who would have been on the run with a small child and torn between caring for and protecting him, with no Secret Keeper and no blood protection and no Dumbledore to provide additional protection for him. Oh, well. It's all necessary to the plot, all in character for Dumbledore, and, in the end, all to the good for Harry (the unintended consequences motif, with the Dursleys unintentionally making Harry stronger and more resilient. Carol, snipping the rest of the argument to avoid repetition From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 12 16:51:16 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:51:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187778 Alla: > > If in your mind incredibly gifted student who wants to pursue his education is a pampered prince, then sure I agree he is a pampered prince. For me to make such conclusion I need to see more of Dumbledore's childhood, because to me pampered prince is something entirely different (and boy do I hate this phrase, sorry). Carol: Just curious. Why do you hate the phrase? Alla: I hate this phrase because I hate that Dumbledore used it as justification for leaving Harry with Dursleys first and foremost, I hate this phrase not only because I find it quite to be quite despicable justification, but also because as far as I am concerned Dumbledore is using it to say either/or ? either Harry will be with Dursleys or he will be a pampered prince. I also hate it because I think what Dumbledore really means here is that if Harry grows up with people who love him, he will be a pampered prince. And I also hate it because obviously author wants me to have negative connotations associated with this phrase, without giving detailed explanation of why is it bad. Does she mean that a child who is loved and a little bit spoiled is a pampered prince? I know my parents loved me, I know they spoiled me a little bit, does that make me a pampered princess??? I guess I also hate the phrase because I cannot quite figure out what the hell is that supposed to mean. OH wait, I think I know. I think and I may change my opinion, that I hate it because I do not know if this refers to material spoiling or spiritual one? If that means giving child too many things, to indulge his every desire, one thing, but if it means loving child unconditionally, eh shut up Dumbledore. Because to me there is no such thing as too much parental love, but I can't help but feel that this is what Dumbledore is saying here. I don't know, I am thinking out loud, but I definitely hate it. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 12 20:13:31 2009 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:13:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187779 Carol wrote in : << His father was imprisoned when he was quite young, so he could not have been much of an influence, and his mother had her hands full with Ariana, whom Albus never had to take care of. She didn't even see a danger in his friendship with Gellert Grindelwald, whom she might have distrusted if she had been more observant. >> His mother was dead before he met Grindelwald. He cancelled his Grander Tour because he 'had to' stay home to care for Ariana because his mother had died suddenly. I believe it is only an implication that Kendra was killed by an effect of one of Ariana's magical tantrums, or is there a more psychiatric word for a rage? << It's not a matter of spoiling and pampering so much as simply not supervising him or having any degree of control over him. And they must not have been poor if he intended to go on the Grand Tour when he finished school. I think as long as he kept the family's dark secrets, he could do anything else he pleased. Wild Aberforth doesn't seem to have had any supervision, either. >> Young Albus didn't NEED any supervision. He was a perfect child. I was so disappointed to find that he hadn't had schoolboy adventures. He never even discovered the Room for Hiding Things, when so many others had discovered it in their school days. There's no sign that he ever discovered a secret tunnel or sneaked into the Restricted Section after curfew (he wouldn't have needed to sneak, as teachers would have signed his permission forms), much less cast the Jellylegs Jinx on a Slytherin in the hallway. I bet he even kept his bedroom tidy. How obnoxious. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 12 19:47:15 2009 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 19:47:15 -0000 Subject: Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187780 Marianne Wildirishrose wrote in : << We know that Peter lived as a rat with the Weasleys for years. When do you think he joined the family as their "pet." The whys are clear. He was in hiding. Why did he join the Weasleys household? Did he think he'd outlive the other Marauders? He'd be a awfully ratty looking rat after so many years. Or keep away from LV? But could he really outlive Voldy? I'm sure he had no idea that Harry would be involved in the Weasleys lives. >> I believe that Peter was simply looking for a place where a rat could be warm and snug and well-fed and petted without having to work for a living. If he could live a happy rat life until dying of old age after eighty or one hundred years, it wouldn't matter to him if his enemies outlived him. I don't know if he realised that at some time the humans would get suspicious of this long-lived rat, but if they did start getting suspicious, he could run away and start over with some other family. Sirius and Remus accused him of choosing the Weasley children because he knew that the Weasley parents were well plugged in to all the gossip and thus he would hear if any of his enemies were on the loose and searching for him. If that was one of his considerations, what did he plan to do about it? Live in the sewers as a dirty rat for the rest of his life? << The entire Peter plot is strange to me. It seems too much of coincidence. Or am I thinking to much? >> The entire Potter plot depends on many coincidences. It could be said that prophecy stories tend to depend on coincidences - what were the odds that the man young Oedipus killed for not yielding him the right of way at an intersection would be his biological father? Sometimes prophecy stories are for the fun of solving a puzzle - how can Burnham Wood come to Dunsinane? Other times prophecy stories are statements that humans can't change the future regardless of their choices and efforts. I really believe that Rowling wants to encourage her readers and admirers to choose to make an effort to be good and do good, so I don't believe that she is trying to spread the word that our choices and efforts don't effect the outcome. (Even tho' her time travel episode supports the message that the future can't be changed.) Some people might say that God or natural law ('ancient magic') often gives the good guys a little bit of extra help in a pinch (altho' history shows that the good guys sometimes lose anyway) and helpful 'coincidences' are when these interventions are less concealed than usual. I think Rowling wants real-life people to make an effort to do good even when the situation seems hopeless and impossible, and therefore wants them to keep hoping, so she tries to encourage real-life people to hope for a miracle or at least a helpful coincidence to be provided to real-life good guys who do their best and never give up. (Even if they fail, the effort was good for their souls.) It could also be said that having a plot depend so much on coincidence is the failure of the author to conceal intervention by the author (rather than by the Author) and is a defect in the novel. << Peter gives rats a bad reputation. :o) My Hermione and Bella are very sweet ratties. :o) >> Other listies have said much the same. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 12 21:46:58 2009 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:46:58 -0000 Subject: Pampered or Note (was: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187781 My other two posts appeared and this one didn't so I'm sending it again. I hope it doesn't appear twice now. Pippin wrote in : << While his family struggled with wayward Aberforth and impaired Ariana, Dumbledore was left free to rack up up every prize of note that Hogwarts offered, and correspond with the most noted wizards of the day. Then, having reached adulthood, he was going to take a year long trip around the world and pursue a brilliant career. Would anyone but a pampered prince think like that? >> The obituaries, Doge, and Aunt Muriel gave me the impression that taking a year long trip around the world was a relatively normal thing for a young wizard to do after Hogwarts. I suppose that travel is less expensive for wizards than for muggles and the largest cost of the Grander Tour was the foregone employment income. That makes it much like those modern young people (I was one once) who expect to go to university instead of having to start supporting themselves straight out of high school. Yes, a sense of entitlement not shared by the people who enlist in the military as the only way they know to earn money for college, but it seems to me a much lower sense of entitlemenet than being 'a pampered prince'. [If one were to say that modern students who expect to go on to college after high school are spoi]ed, what would one say of modern students who take it for granted they will go on to high school after eighth grade? I understand that was a not quite common a hundred years ago, and downright unusual fifty years before that.] That being brilliant at school leads a person to expect a brilliant career strikes me as fairly normal. A sense of entitlement that rapidly gets beaten out of many but not all people. It reminds me of my mother recalling my father telling her that while a graduate student at Columbia University, he looked at the students in a freshman chem class and reflected that every one of those boys had graduated at the top of his high school, and none of them yet realised that he himself was likely to be merely average here. To the extent that this sense of entitlement was the result of pampering, then having won high marks and every award given at Hogwarts was being pampered by Hogwarts, who probably thought that it was recognizing achievement rather than pampering. And having corresponded with established renowned scholars while still a schoolboy was being pampered by those scholars, who probably thought they were encouraging, maybe mentoring, a young talent, rather than pampering. << He was planning to reverse the course of natural death and lead the WW in a revolution all so he could get out from having to care for his family. That's quite a sense of entitlement, don't you think? >> I don't at all agree with you that he was planning to rule the world ALL SO he could get out from caring for his family. He could have gone on his Grander Tour if only he had allowed Aberforth to drop out of Hogwarts and care for Ariana, as Aberforth wanted to do. It's not as if Aberforth needed NEWTs to run a dirty tavern and raise goats. (It seems odd to me that Rowling constructed an incident in which dropping out of school was the RIGHT thing to do and the adult authority was dead wrong to compel the minor to stay in school, when that is absolutely contrary to real-life contemporary values.) It seems to me that if young Albus really had the sense of entitlement attributed to young James and Sirius, he wouldn't have been prevented from that course merely by not wanting people to gossip about how selfish and irresponsible he was being. I'm sure he could have come up with some other scheme to make it look like he was being nobly self-sacrificing by doing that he really wanted rather than by striving to become co-Emperor of the world. I believe the only connection between him being tied down by his family and him joining Grindelwald's plan was that he might have been too busy to listen to Grindelwald if he hadn't been tied down by his family. But if he had met and listened to Grindelwald while on his Grander Tour instead of in Godric's Hollow, he would have joined Grindelwald anyway (thus hurting Doge's feelings). Because Grindelwald was brilliant and had intellectually exciting ideas and was very persuasive as well as handsome and charming, and Albus was intellectually intoxicated by these ideas -- I can vaguely recall having had similar experiences in my long ago youth. When I was much younger than young Albus and read about Lemuria, or about how telepathy works. When I was his age and learned that all of chemistry is because electron orbitals are defined and there can be no more than two electrons per orbital. And the other factor (I can relate to this one, too) is his awareness that the world is out of joint and his desire to put it right. He had observed muggles being much given to violence and bullying, by what they did to Ariana, the Franco-Prussian War, the conditions of factory workers. He had observed wizards of low ability having position and power because of their pure blood, and wizards of ability (not as great as his own, of course) being trapped in poverty. If only he was in charge, he would identify the bullies and put spells on them so that they felt themselves whatever they did to another person, he would use magic to increase the general prosperity and prevent natural disasters, he would see to it that people were rewarded only for merit... From sweenlit at gmail.com Sun Sep 13 00:59:02 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:59:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43e41d1e0909121759n54956804sdeb86116d699bce@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187782 << The entire Peter plot is strange to me. It seems too much of coincidence. Or am I thinking to much? >> Lynda: Well, let's consider. A man with the ability to change form from man to animal, his change being man to rat, decides to sell out his friends because he is secretly on the opposition side of a conflict. He is discovered by one of his former friends, shortly after the relevant information has been given into his hands. His friend confronts (or is getting ready to) him in public. So this man, a wizard no less, kills the members of the public who are nearby, changes form to rat form, and leaves his former friend holding the bag. Similar things have happened historically, leaving out the magic and as in the case of Sirius/Peter, the innocent one has gone to prison, everyone certain that they were guilty. Then the man turned rat needs a place to hide. No one knew he could change form and so he scurries to a place where he will be picked up by a family that needs a pet. He's not great looking, so the owner of the shop who sells him won't charge a lot, but he pulls it off and becomes a school wizard's pet and is passed down through the family when the owner gets a reward from the school--the reward in this case being becoming a prefect. Certainly it's a plot that's been used before, and will be used again, I'm sure, but coincidental? I know real people who have stories even stranger. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Sep 13 02:31:17 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:31:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catlady_de_los_angeles" wrote: his Grander Tour because he 'had to' stay home to care for Ariana because his mother had died suddenly. I believe it is only an implication that Kendra was killed by an effect of one of Ariana's magical tantrums, or is there a more psychiatric word for a rage? Pippin: It's a bit more than an implication. Aberforth says, "If I'd been there, I could have calmed her down. She had one of her rages, and my mother wasn't as young as she was, and...it was an accident. Ariana couldn't control it. But my mother was dead." Aberforth wasn't there, so it's not clear how he knows what happened, or who arranged things so that Ariana was not discovered, much less suspected by anyone else. But the brothers believed that Kendra's determination to care for her daughter alone had cost her her life. Up till then, Albus had been sheltered from the unrewarding (to him) drudgery of looking after Ariana, or, indeed, drudgery of any kind. I don't think he had the Draco-ish thought that this sort of thing was for servants -- IMO, he hadn't even known it existed. Not that he never had routine stuff to do, I suppose, but nothing that wasn't so easy he couldn't think about more interesting things while he did it. Unfortunately, you can't daydream while you're looking after a person with a history of unpredictable violence. As you say, Albus was a good boy. A less conscientious person would have seized his freedom, left Aberforth to care for Ariana, and happily gone on with his life. But Albus's parents had made their terrible sacrifices so that his brother could go to school and Ariana could remain at home. He felt he owed it to them to sacrifice his own ambitions. And that's what Albus tried to do. He didn't enjoy it, but Aberforth says he did alright for a few weeks, until Grindelwald showed up. Aberforth found himself taking care of Ariana again, and that was okay with him. But then it was time for Aberforth to go back to school. Albus couldn't think of abandoning his sister to St Mungo's or let his brother abandon his schooling when that's what his parents had died to prevent. So he and Grindelwald decided they'd just bring Ariana along. That's what started the fight with Aberforth, who could see that Ariana was in no fit state to be moved, much less hauled along on whatever adventures Albus and Grindelwald were planning. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Sep 13 03:58:00 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:58:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187784 > Alla: > > I hate this phrase because I hate that Dumbledore used it as justification for leaving Harry with Dursleys first and foremost, I hate this phrase not only because I find it quite to be quite despicable justification, but also because as far as I am concerned Dumbledore is using it to say either/or ? either Harry will be with Dursleys or he will be a pampered prince. I also hate it because I think what Dumbledore really means here is that if Harry grows up with people who love him, he will be a pampered prince. Pippin: Dumbledore never does anything of the kind, IMO. Your argument links two conversations that take place 14 years and thousands of pages apart, in entirely different contexts. McGonagall does not know how Harry is going to be treated at the Dursleys when she argues with Dumbledore at Privet Drive. She's not a Muggle hater, she's not going to think that the Dursleys are going to hate Harry just because he's a wizard, and she knows nothing of the grudge Petunia bears for her sister. Vernon is very careful not to mention it. The worst she could have heard is that Petunia thinks "Harry" is a nasty common name. That's not very nice, but it hardly means that Harry is going to be shut in a cupboard or have the magic squashed out of him. As far as McGonagall knows, Harry is at risk of being misunderstood, annoyed by his cousin, and allowed to behave like Dudley, who kicks his mother all the way down the street, screaming for sweets. Dumbledore asks if she can't see that Harry will be better off away from people who will turn his head. It's a question of being spoiled by two people and annoyed by his cousin, as opposed to being spoiled by a whole society and annoyed by the likes of Rita Skeeter and Romilda Vane. Actually, Dumbledore knows there isn't much chance that the Dursleys are going to spoil Harry, but the fact remains he certainly never implied to McGonagall that it's okay to abuse a child to keep him from being spoiled. The question did not arise. Harry never heard this conversation, so he can't possibly have had it in mind when Dumbledore refers, fourteen years later and hundreds of miles away, to "a pampered little prince." The way I interpret it, Dumbledore considers Harry normal, in implied contrast to children who might seem to have had a softer life, but came out the worse for it. Harry would think of Draco and Dudley. I've explained why I think Dumbledore was thinking of himself. But that does not imply that those children would have been better off if they'd been brought up by the Dursleys, or that the abuse Harry suffered was necessary in order to keep him from turning out like them. If Dumbledore thought that loving homes were bad for children or that they had to be deprived of them to make sure they'd only be loyal to him, he would never have trusted Ron and Hermione so much. Dumbledore knows that Harry could have returned to him in much worse shape than he did. Harry, fortunately, is one of those people who can usually generate an interior sense of well-being. He can find things to like about himself even though he has no one. Others, like Snape and Petunia, were not so gifted, and were more damaged by neglect even though in absolute terms they received more care. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 13 16:03:18 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:03:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187785 Pippin: Dumbledore never does anything of the kind, IMO. Your argument links two conversations that take place 14 years and thousands of pages apart, in entirely different contexts. Alla: Dumbledore never offers to McGonagall as justification for leaving Harry with Dursleys the argument that Harry will be better off with them, not spoiled as opposed to leaving him with **any** WW family which will definitely spoil Harry in Dumbledore's opinion? We are reading different books then. And of course my argument links two conversations, because IMO the topic of these conversations is exactly the same, even if they are indeed happening 14 years apart. What does it matter how long apart they are? Pippin: McGonagall does not know how Harry is going to be treated at the Dursleys when she argues with Dumbledore at Privet Drive. She's not a Muggle hater, she's not going to think that the Dursleys are going to hate Harry just because he's a wizard, and she knows nothing of the grudge Petunia bears for her sister. Vernon is very careful not to mention it. The worst she could have heard is that Petunia thinks "Harry" is a nasty common name. That's not very nice, but it hardly means that Harry is going to be shut in a cupboard or have the magic squashed out of him. As far as McGonagall knows, Harry is at risk of being misunderstood, annoyed by his cousin, and allowed to behave like Dudley, who kicks his mother all the way down the street, screaming for sweets. Alla: I do not understand how what Minerva may or may not have learned about Dursleys changes the meaning of **Dumbledore"s** words. Here is the canon: "You don't mean ? you can't mean the people who live here?" cried Professor McGonagall, jumping to her feet and pointing at number four. "Dumbledore ? you can't. I've been watching them all day. You couldn't find two people who are less like us. And they've got this son ? I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the street, screaming for sweets. Harry Potter come and live here!" "It's the best place for him," said Dumbledore firmly. "His aunt and uncle will be able to explain everything to him when he's older. I've written them a letter." "A letter?" repeated Professor McGonagall faintly, sitting back down on the wall. "Really, Dumbledore, you think you can explain all this in a letter? These people will never understand him! He'll be famous ? a legend- I wouldn't be surprised if today was known as Harry Potter day in the future ? there will be books written about Harry ? every child in our world will know his name!" "Exactly," said Dumbledore, looking very seriously over the top of his half-moon glasses. "It would be enough to turn any boy's head. Famous before he can walk and talk! Famous for something he can't even remember! Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it" ? p.13 Alla: **Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it"**. Sounds quite clear to me, that Dumbledore thinks that it is much better for Harry to grew up unspoiled with Dursleys than in the WW, even if WW family will love him as their own, and OMG may spoil him a little bit. By the way, I do not agree with you that your inference IS necessarily what Minerva would have concluded, I mean, annoyed by his cousin? Minerva sees Dudley KICKING his mother and you think the conclusion that he may be **hitting** Harry just never entered her mind? And she was here before we readers saw her, so maybe she saw something even more damning (we obviously do not see it on page, but I think I can still speculate). In any event, I think what Minerva thinks here is irrelevant because I find Dumbledore's response to her to be quite damning on its own. Pippin: Actually, Dumbledore knows there isn't much chance that the Dursleys are going to spoil Harry, but the fact remains he certainly never implied to McGonagall that it's okay to abuse a child to keep him from being spoiled. The question did not arise. Alla: Exactly, Dumbledore knows how Dursleys will treat Harry or at least has pretty good idea about it and he **still** says that it will be better for him to grow up here not because it will save his life, but because it will turn his head. I think he does not just imply it here, I think he is loud and clear that abusing child is okay if it keeps him from being spoiled. In light of Dumbledore having corresponding with Petunia, in light of Dumbledore being a neighbor to James and Lily, I think he knew very well what kind of relationship she had with her sister. And he still has a nerve to talk about being spoiled. Pippin Harry never heard this conversation, so he can't possibly have had it in mind when Dumbledore refers, fourteen years later and hundreds of miles away, to "a pampered little prince." The way I interpret it, Dumbledore considers Harry normal, in implied contrast to children who might seem to have had a softer life, but came out the worse for it. Harry would think of Draco and Dudley. I've explained why I think Dumbledore was thinking of himself. But that does not imply that those children would have been better off if they'd been brought up by the Dursleys, or that the abuse Harry suffered was necessary in order to keep him from turning out like them. Alla: And the way I interpret it, Dumbledore offers "not a pampered prince" as justification to himself, that he was **right** to leave Harry with Dursleys. He does not need to imply that loving homes are bad for children in order for me to see it, all he needs is to say that **abusive** home is good for a child and I think in that conversation he is again loud and clear that "not a pampered prince" was a good reason to leave Harry there. He considers Harry normal because he did not grew up a pampered prince. God I want to strangle the bastard every time I read that speech. Pippin: If Dumbledore thought that loving homes were bad for children or that they had to be deprived of them to make sure they'd only be loyal to him, he would never have trusted Ron and Hermione so much. Alla: LOL, I am not talking about Dumbledore thinking that loving homes are bad for children in general, I am talking about Dumbledore thinking and doing everything in his power to prevent **one** child from going to loving home. This child will be Harry, not Ron or Hermione. And of course Dumbledore would have trusted their **loyalty to Harry**. How does their homes come into play, I do not even know. The way I see it is incredibly simple, really. If Dumbledore did not think that one of the reasons for leaving Harry with Dursleys will be to make sure he is not spoiled (whatever that means in Dumbledore's twisted mind), he would not have said it. He does not just say it, he repeats it fourteen years later. And I think it is quite clear that he means it. That again goes back to me arguing that I needed to see blood protection in more details and I needed the writer to tell me that NO, nothing else mattered for Dumbledore when he made the determination to leave Harry there. Writer (IMO) is loud and clear that something else did matter and I find such reason disgusting. JMO, Alla From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Fri Sep 11 20:17:56 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:17:56 -0000 Subject: Lily, Sev and Toony (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187786 > Potioncat: > I think there is a complicated dynamic between Petunia and Lily. We also know she expresses disgust at magic now, but wanted to go to Hogwarts so badly she sent a letter to DD. She is truly conflicted. > > Enter magical Harry. I would think all of Petunia's unhappy memories of Sev and Lily must have come back. She was the odd one in that group, the victim of their magic. Lily was performing intentional, wandless magic--so I'm not sure if Petunia understands that wizarding children cannot always control magic. Though I still don't understand the intensity of Petunia's treatment of Harry. > Zfshiruba: I have never thought jealousy was Petunia's only motivation certainly her strongest, but what happened to her parents? I think the way Harry turns up on her doorstep, and her sister's violent death remind her that the wizarding world is just as ugly as the muggle one. I think that that reminder, her guilt over feeling jealous of a dead woman, her grief and the extremely conflicted emotions she must be feeling when she finds him would lead her mind to label the wizarding world and anything that might bring her family into contact with it a threat. I think her main motivation for her treatment is still petty transfered jealousy, but I think one of her self-justifications would be that he was/is a threat to her family. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 13 16:58:05 2009 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 13 Sep 2009 16:58:05 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/13/2009, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1252861085.516.601.m8@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187787 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday September 13, 2009 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Sep 13 17:51:20 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:51:20 -0000 Subject: Lily, Sev and Toony (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zfshiruba" wrote: Zfshiruba: I think her main motivation for her treatment is still petty transfered jealousy, but I think one of her self-justifications would be that he was/is a threat to her family. Geoff: I feel there's something of an illogicality here. If, as you suggest, Petunia justifies her treatment by thinking that Harry's presence is a threat to the family, how does abusing him, starving him, neglecting him and demeaning him make him any less of a threat? From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Sun Sep 13 20:50:25 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:50:25 -0000 Subject: Lily, Sev and Toony (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187789 > Geoff: > I feel there's something of an illogicality here. > > If, as you suggest, Petunia justifies her treatment by thinking that > Harry's presence is a threat to the family, how does abusing him, > starving him, neglecting him and demeaning him make him any > less of a threat? > Zfshiruba: Psychological motivations are seldom logical. But you're right, I worded that poorly. First off, I don't she consciously thought that. I think it was playing somewhere in the back of her subconscious. When something is dangerous, you want to keep it away from kids. Petunia can't keep Harry away from her family; re: blood protection; so she tries to keep "magic" away from contaminating her family by separating Harry from them as much as she can. Also, the fact that its a threat she has to live with converts into resentment for the threat. And like I meant to say before all this threat thinking is a secondary or tertiary motive for her resentment, with jealousy being the primary. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 13 22:28:34 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:28:34 -0000 Subject: Keeping Secrets (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187790 Potioncat wrote: > Getting back to canon discussion, I'll pull a line from Carol's comments, "But I think that the breakdown or failure of communication is also a persistent motif..." > > Motif! That's the word! Not a theme really. > > We used to bemoan and complain that Harry never asked the right person the right question---or hardly ever asked questions at all. Yet JRK tells us very very early that Harry learned not to ask questions. On those rare occasions when he asked a question, he usually got the wrong answer. > > I think JKR did a very good job of keeping "her" secrets, and of giving the characters the right backgrounds and motivations for their secrecy and behaviors. So whether we approve or not, we can understand where DD gets his secrecy, why Snape automatically distrusts Harry's actions, and why Harry doesn't go to adults. > Carol responds: But Harry himself can be guilty of (accidental or unknowing) miscommunication. His version of the events on the tower in the hospital wing in HBP--Snape's supposed treachery, etc.--is another example. All the characters present, and the reader, get Harry's interpretation. I wonder how many people outside this list and similar discussion groups questioned that interpretation. And yet if we compare his version of the reason DD believed Snape to the actual words DD (himself carefully concealing information without actually lying) actually said, we have sufficient reason to think that Harry hasn't quite got his facts straight. The other characters, however, especially Lupin, seized on his version of events as the full truth and added to them. Lupin went so far as to say that Snape would almost certainly have killed Luna and Hermione if they hadn't instantly obeyed him--obviously wrong in retrospect, but misinterpretation of events accepted without question by every character present. In fact, the misinterpretation of Snape, initiated by JKR herself with the "murder" of DD (setting aside her ambiguous presentation of him in earlier scenes and books) is sustained--with a few counterhints to which the characters are oblivious--until "The Prince's Tale." So miscommunication is not only a motif, a recognizable and frequently repeated thematic element, it's also an important plot device. JKR simply doesn't want either the characters or the reader to know exactly what's going on until she's ready to reveal it. Certain characters, notably Dumbledore and Snape, share her goal for their own reasons and deliberately withhold or distort information. Other characters, notably HRH, frequently misinterpret events and jump to the wrong conclusions (as does Snape on at least one occasion, in PoA). Add in the unreliable narrator, reporting events from Harry's perspective, and the reader really needs to be on his or her toes, distinguishing clues from red herrings and communication from miscommunication, misunderstanding, or misinterpretation. Makes the books a lot more fun than books in which all the characters know exactly what's going on or an omniscient narrator interprets everything for us as the author sees it. IMO, of course. Carol, thanking Potioncat for this delightful question From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 13 23:43:19 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 23:43:19 -0000 Subject: Keeping Secrets (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 2, The Vanishing Glass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187791 Potioncat wrote: > So is secrecy/failure of communication a motif or a theme in JKR's work? > > Here are 2 definitions from UNC, Pembroke > http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/general/glossary.htm#a > > motif (moh-TEEF): a recurring object, concept, or structure in a work of literature A motif is important because it allows one to see main points and themes that the author is trying to express, in order that one might be able to interpret the work more accurately. > > theme (theem): a common thread or repeated idea that is incorporated throughout a literary work. A theme is a thought or idea the author presents to the reader that may be deep, difficult to understand, or even moralistic. Generally, a theme has to be extracted as the reader explores the passages of a work .The ability to recognize a theme is important because it allows the reader to understand part of the author's purpose in writing the book. > Carol responds: Good definitions. Thanks for the link, which I'll bookmark. Literary analysis, hard as we try to base our inferences and conclusions from the text itself, is always subjective, and not all critics use exactly the same definitions or use these terms in exactly the same way. However, I tend to agree with the definitions you quoted. A motif, as I said before, is a recognizable (usually thematic) element. It can be an object or objects like the Horcruxes or something more abstract like, say, the Half-blood Prince's spells or Dumbledore's passwords, or a recurring phrase (e.g., "honored above all others"), but it can also be a concept like miscommunication or unintended consequences. Usually, it's distinct from a symbol (such as the Elder Wand), which has significance in and of itself that can be interpreted by the reader and sensed (though not usually overtly expressed) by the author. A theme is more major and more prevalent, and can usually be expressed in a sentence. For example, you could argue that the theme or a theme of the HP books is that love is more powerful than the darkest spell. Or you could say that the/a theme is that evil can never be permanently defeated but must always be fought. JKR would probably state the theme of her books, the main point she was trying to make, in similar but not identical terms. An author is usually conscious of his or her main themes. Motifs, however, may occur deliberately as part of the plot structure or may evolve out of the story as it's being told without the author's being fully and consciously aware of the links to themes and concepts in the storyline. At any rate, I would call miscommunication a motif rather than a theme. It occurs repeatedly, sometimes as a deliberate device on the part of the author to mislead the characters and/or the reader, sometimes out of the nature or motives of a character. (Snape, for example, must subtly mislead Voldemort and the DEs to survive and to continue usefully serving Dumbledore. It would be fun to write an essay--or a whole book--on the topic. The problem would not be finding examples--they're everywhere--but putting them all together and determining their significance. Carol, giving Potioncat an A+ for her extra credit homework assignment From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Sep 14 03:07:24 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:07:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187792 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone Chapter Three, The Letters from No One We learn that following the boa constrictor incident, Harry was confined to his cupboard into the Summer Holidays. Once let out, he spends most of his time wandering outside away from the house, to avoid Dudley and his gang of friends. Summer also brings school preparations in the Dursley household - buying uniforms for Dudley for the private secondary school he will be attending, and dyeing Dudley's old clothes to approximate the uniform of the local state-run secondary school which Harry is to attend. One day, Harry receives a mysterious letter in a parchment envelope with a wax seal, which causes consternation to Vernon and Petunia. Vernon destroys the letter and Harry does not see it. However, the next day Harry is moved by his uncle from his cupboard into Dudley's second bedroom, and two letters arrive, apparently addressed by an entity aware of Harry's change of room. Vernon again prevents Harry from seeing them. Each subsequent day, more of the letters arrive by ever less probable means, which Vernon keeps Harry from seeing. This culminates on Sunday, when a deluge of the letters arrives though the fireplace and Vernon orders everyone out of the house and takes them on a long, aimless drive. However, the following morning Harry receives more letters at the hotel where the foursome are staying. In his manic quest to avoid the letters, Vernon next drags his protesting household out across the sea to a run-down hut on a rock, in a storm. At midnight, just as Harry turns eleven, there is a loud knock at the door of the hut, and the chapter ends. Questions for Discussion: 1. This chapter seems to have a lot of over the top action in it. The Smeltings uniform (maroon tailcoat, orange knickerbockers, a straw boater, and a knobbly stick?!), the Stonewall uniform Petunia attempts to imitate (compared to elephant skins), and the extremes to which Vernon goes to avoid the letters. What was your reaction to these? Are there others in the chapter I missed? How do you feel they contributed to/detracted from the book, and how do you see them fitting into the series now? 2. Vernon is described as grayish white after he reads the first line of Harry's letter. Petunia is described as looking like she might faint, clutching her throat, and making a choking noise. What do you make of these reactions? What do you think is behind them? 3. "I'm not having one in the house, Petunia! Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that dangerous nonsense?" Harry and Dudley overhear Vernon saying these words to Petunia in their discussion of the letter. What does this tell us about Vernon and Petunia? 4. Why do you think Vernon and Petunia decide to move Harry into a bedroom? 5. Why does Petunia hand Vernon a fruitcake when he is nailing the mail slot shut instead of a hammer? 6. Any opinions as to why green ink is used in these letters (which we now know are his Hogwarts letters, of course)? Or purple wax? 7. The chapter is called "Letters from No One". Who do you think it responsible for sending these letters to Harry? Why the misleading chapter title? 8. Feel free to suggest your own question. ------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 4, The Keeper of the Keys, on September 21, 2009. If you would like to volunteer to lead a PS/SS chapter discussion, please contact drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 14 16:45:13 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:45:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187793 > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone > > Chapter Three, The Letters from No One > 1. This chapter seems to have a lot of over the top action in it. The Smeltings uniform (maroon tailcoat, orange knickerbockers, a straw boater, and a knobbly stick?!), the Stonewall uniform Petunia attempts to imitate (compared to elephant skins), and the extremes to which Vernon goes to avoid the letters. What was your reaction to these? Are there others in the chapter I missed? How do you feel they contributed to/detracted from the book, and how do you see them fitting into the series now? Carol responds: First, I don't think that the regular Stonewall High uniform would look like elephant skin. It's only Petunia's inadequate substitute that looks wrinkled. Still, the contrast between Harry's gray, prisonlike uniform and Dudley's extravagant one is deliberate, illustrating the difference in treatment of the indulged Dudley, who goes to a presumably expensive and exclusive school (which is, nonetheless, a training ground for bullies given the Smeltings stick) whereas Harry (it seems) is being sent to a state-supported school whose very name suggests a prisonyard at no expense to the Dursleys. On one level, JKR seems to be poking fun at "public" (private) schools like Eton and Harrow, with their outlandish and antiquated (or, if you prefer, quaint and colorful) uniforms. (Being American, I don't know where the Smeltings stick and gray uniform fit in.) On another level, she's contrasting the drabness and meaninglessness of the life Harry would have led at Stonewall High with the excitement of the as-yet-unknown Hogwarts. The owls and the all-knowing writer of the letters (the magic behind the changing addresses is never explained) is both comically exaggerated and mysterious, arousing the curiosity of the (presumably young) reader along with Harry. My reaction as an adult to Vernon's extreme behavior in nailing up the doors, etc., was how is he supposed to get to work? Vernon's "solutions" work against himself more than they work against Harry. Dudley's reaction of "Daddy's gone mad, hasn't he?" about sums it up. Only, of course, the exaggerated humor of these chapters was never intended to be realistic. We're clearly in a fantasy world even in Little Whinging. They serve as a light introduction to the series, making the Dursleys and especially Vernon into comic villains with Harry as a cross between a male Cinderella and Everychild. The distance between these chapters and DH is immeasurable. JKR has accomplished quite a feat by gradually moving Harry and the reader from the world of SS/PS to the world of DH through subtle changes in tone and atmosphere suitable to Harry's advancing age and the darker subject matter. That Harry is still recognizable as Harry despite his increased maturity and everything that happens to him in the later books is also quite an accomplishment. > > 2. Vernon is described as grayish white after he reads the first line of Harry's letter. Petunia is described as looking like she might faint, clutching her throat, and making a choking noise. What do you make of these reactions? What do you think is behind them? Carol responds: Like everything else in these early chapters, the reactions are exaggerated (compare Vernon pulling out parts of his mustache later). However, Petunia, at least, knows very well what the letter is, and judging from Vernon's remarks about Dumbledore later, so does he. I think that they know, first, that their efforts to stifle the magic out of Harry have failed. More important, they've tried to distance themselves from what they perceive (with some justification) as being the dangerous magical world, and they (like Fudge much later) want to maintain their illusion of safety and normalcy and consequently, they're in denial--"There's no such thing as magic." They may even want to believe their own lie that Harry's parents died in a car accident because it's "normal" and dissociates them from "weirdos" who get themselves "blown up" by becoming involved with magic and other abnormalities. Their little world and their illusion are threatened, so Vernon in particular goes to extremes to prevent Harry from knowing the truth. If he doesn't know he's a Wizard and isn't trained in using magic, everything will be safe and "normal" at 4 Privet Drive. It's very much like denying that "Lord Thingy" has returned. > > 3. "I'm not having one in the house, Petunia! Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that dangerous nonsense?" Harry and Dudley overhear Vernon saying these words to Petunia in their discussion of the letter. What does this tell us about Vernon and Petunia? Carol responds: I think I've already partially answered this question. Clearly, even Vernon knows that the Potters were a witch and a wizard, and like Petunia, who knows more or less what happened at Godric's Hollow, he thinks that magic is dangerous and abnormal. She knows more than he does, of course, having known Lily during her childhood and youth (they'd have spent summers and probably Christmas holidays together) and at least encountered "that awful boy, not to mention tried to get into Hogwarts herself), but I think that she has fed the flames of Vernon's fear by emphasizing her sisters' "abnormality," and she herself is paranoid that the neighbors will find out about first "the Potters" and then Harry. They don't want their house blown up, either. Solution? Make sure that Harry is as repressed, restrained, and inconspicuous as possible to "stamp" the "dangerous nonsense" out of him, meanwhile denying that magic exists. > 4. Why do you think Vernon and Petunia decide to move Harry into a bedroom? Carol: Clearly, they're embarrassed that some apparently omniscient person knows that they're mistreating Harry. It's almost as if they didn't realize it themselves until they were confronted with it, so they quickly undo that particular form of abuse by giving him his own room (still smaller than Dudley's and cluttered with junk--we can't give him any delusions of equality). It's another form of denial, I think. > > 5. Why does Petunia hand Vernon a fruitcake when he is nailing the mail slot shut instead of a hammer? Carol: Comic exaggeration to show that she's flustered--and possibly a dig at fruitcakes if JKR hates them. The storebought fruitcakes that get passed from one person to another because they taste like cardboard tend to get about as hard as particle board. (Now, *good* homemaed fruitcake is as different from that storebought junk as Scabbers from most pet rats, but I digress.) > > 6. Any opinions as to why green ink is used in these letters (which we now know are his Hogwarts letters, of course)? Or purple wax? Carol: Only to distinguish them from Muggle letters, I think. If they're from DD, though, it might be an indication of his flamboyant taste. I don't know about green, but he seems inordinately fond of purple. > > 7. The chapter is called "Letters from No One". Who do you think it responsible for sending these letters to Harry? Why the misleading chapter title? Carol: The original sender has to be either Dumbledore or McGonagall, based on whatever information is contained in the magical book that records the birth of prospective Hogwarts students (both Harry's and Tom Riddle's names had been "down since birth"; I imagine that's the case with all magical British children. It's not clear whether the sender knows that Harry's address has changed (through a change in the book) or whether the letters magically address themselves. (Owls, we later learn, don't need an address to find the recipient even assuming that magical owls can read.) As for the "letters from no one," it apparently reflects Harry's perception at the moment. (For one thing, he's had an envelope in his hand long enough to see that there's no return address.) Later, Hagrid seems to be magically keeping track of Harry's whereabouts, but he's clearly nowhere near Privet Drive. And I don't think that even Mrs. Figg and her cats could know that Harry has been moved from the cupboard under the stairs to the smallest bedroom. It has to be magic of some sort. Carol, thanking Zara for her delightful summary and questions From bart at moosewise.com Mon Sep 14 17:11:22 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:11:22 -0400 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AAE793A.6040801@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187794 Carol wrote: > whose very name suggests a prisonyard at no expense to the Dursleys. On one level, JKR seems to be poking fun at "public" (private) schools like Eton and Harrow, with their outlandish and antiquated (or, if you prefer, quaint and colorful) uniforms. (Being American, I don't know where the Smeltings stick and gray uniform fit in.) Bart: The term "public schools" refers to who is allowed in rather than the ownership. In other words, you don't have to be a member of some specific group (such as, for example, nobility) to be allowed in. Bart From sandie.hans at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 17:10:24 2009 From: sandie.hans at gmail.com (spa76) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 17:10:24 -0000 Subject: Horcrux question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187795 Sandie: Once again I have a burning question I'm too embarrassed to ask my real-life HP-fan friends about... It's established in HBP and DH that a horcrux is incredibly difficult to destroy, and that each contains a bit of Tom Riddle's soul. So why is Hermione apparently unaffected? I know the Ron and Hermione Chamber of Secrets trip is one of the series' big "missing moments," but when they're retelling the story, it seems like it was incredibly easy for Hermione to destroy Hufflepuff's Cup. That has never made much sense to me, considering how much the locket tormented poor Ron before he could destroy it. Are we supposed to think Hermione was so focused she just stabbed it with a basilisk fang straightaway, before Riddle's soul could play any mindtricks on her? From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Sep 14 20:10:12 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:10:12 -0000 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: <4AAE793A.6040801@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Carol wrote: > > whose very name suggests a prisonyard at no expense to the Dursleys. On one level, JKR seems to be poking fun at "public" (private) schools like Eton and Harrow, with their outlandish and antiquated (or, if you prefer, quaint and colorful) uniforms. (Being American, I don't know where the Smeltings stick and gray uniform fit in.) > Bart: > The term "public schools" refers to who is allowed in rather than > the ownership. In other words, you don't have to be a member of some > specific group (such as, for example, nobility) to be allowed in. Geoff; No, but the history of the public schools is that many of them were endowed or founded by people with money or by philanthropists. To get to one, you needed money or influential connections. In later days, there were scholarships offered to pupils bright enough to win them. When I was nine, the Headmaster of my Junior school in Tooting, South London got my parents to try to persuade me to take the scholarship exam for Christ's Hospital in Sussex but I flatly refused, being rather frightened of going away from home at that age. Please remember that, in the UK the terms "public school" and "private school" are not synonymous. "Public school" is a term largely used by the oldest and most prestigious foundations and was a term first used by Eton College. They usually belong to the Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference which boasts 250 members in the UK and Republic of Ireland plus about 30 overseas members. The public schools do not use the term private school often but there are many hundreds of schools in the latter category. The terminology, which is probably confusing to folk outside the UK, arises from the fact that these schools were open to the fee-paying public - obviously the well-off - as opposed to schools run by the Church. Just in passing, not all public schools maintain special uniforms. the nearest school to where I live - Taunton School - prescribes a neat, grey suit for its male pupils. I'm not sure about the female uniform; something along similar lines but involving skirts, I suspect. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Sep 14 20:57:58 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:57:58 -0000 Subject: Horcrux question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187797 > Sandie: > Are we supposed to think Hermione was so focused she just stabbed it with a basilisk fang straightaway, before Riddle's soul could play any mindtricks on her? Zara: No, not necessarily. We the readers are not shown that scene, because Harry was not there. Harry is told about it in passing, without any particular details. Supposing Hermione had encountered some similar difficulty from the Cup, I can see how she and Ron might choose not to share the details with Harry. Just as Harry did not share the details of Ron's difficulties with Hermione, wjo was not there when thre locket was destroyed. He merely explained that Ron stabbed the locket with the sword, and the Horcrux was destroyed. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 15 00:35:30 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:35:30 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187798 > "zgirnius" wrote: > Questions for Discussion: > 1. This chapter seems to have a lot of over the top action in it. The Smeltings uniform (maroon tailcoat, orange knickerbockers, a straw boater, and a knobbly stick?!), the Stonewall uniform Petunia attempts to imitate (compared to elephant skins), and the extremes to which Vernon goes to avoid the letters. What was your reaction to these? Are there others in the chapter I missed? How do you feel they contributed to/detracted from the book, and how do you see them fitting into the series now? Potioncat: It was the over the top mistreatment of Harry in chapter 2 that drove me from the books the first time. It reminded me of Roald Dahl. But the second time I tried SS/PS, I accepted it as the form of the storytelling. Some of it makes for great humor. Harry thinking that the uniform is going to look like elephant skin---sounds like the way a kid would see it; and you can feel his frustration. The tons and tons of letters that seem to follow after the Dursleys and Harry remind me of a certain type of magical story. One (of several) that comes to mind is Strega Nona. She has a magic pasta pot that won't stop producing pasta until a certain incantation is spoken. I know the basis is a little different, but there is an established folklore concerning something magical that continues to produce until the proper word is spoken, or correct action taken. > 2. Vernon is described as grayish white after he reads the first line of Harry's letter. Petunia is described as looking like she might faint, clutching her throat, and making a choking noise. What do you make of these reactions? What do you think is behind them? Potioncat: Perhaps because there had been no contact in all the years, Vernon thought they had dodged the magic bullet. Petunia should have expected a letter or a visit about now. I think she is reacting on her own, but also responding to Vernon's reactions. During the 7 years we see this couple, they seem to maintain a careful dance of keeping each other appeased. > 3. "I'm not having one in the house, Petunia! Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that dangerous nonsense?" Harry and Dudley overhear Vernon saying these words to Petunia in their discussion of the letter. What does this tell us about Vernon and Petunia? Potioncat: I think Petunia let Vernon think the magic could be "stamped out." I'm pretty sure she doesn't expect any such thing. But it seems they did agree to raise him as normal. Has this ever come up before in all the years of discussion? Doesn't this sound like a conservative set of guardians discovering their ward is gay?---determined to stamp it out. > 4. Why do you think Vernon and Petunia decide to move Harry into a bedroom? Potioncat: Embarrassment, maybe. Fear of retribution, perhaps. > 5. Why does Petunia hand Vernon a fruitcake when he is nailing the mail slot shut instead of a hammer? Potioncat: As I read it, he was nailing the door shut, and she handed him a snack. I didn't think the intent was to use the fruitcake on the nails. Maybe she was hoping the food would distract him. Fruitcake isn't something we typically eat in July in the US. Would Brits eat it this time of year? I think she was so befuddled that she took a forgotten Christmas cake from the pantry. In the US, we sometimes refer to someone being, "as nutty as a fruitcake." Nutty in this case means crazy. So I took it as sort of a visual pun. Is that phrase used the same way by Brits? > 6. Any opinions as to why green ink is used in these letters (which we now know are his Hogwarts letters, of course)? Or purple wax? Potioncat: We will discover later that McGonagall's signature is on the letter. I think it proves she was in Slytherin and is ESE!McGonagall. No? OK, it looks less Muggle-like, and more magical--much like the bright cloaks and robes many wizards wear. > 7. The chapter is called "Letters from No One". Who do you think it responsible for sending these letters to Harry? Why the misleading chapter title? Potioncat: Is it misleading? Who would send a letter to Harry? No one--hence the title. McGonagall's signature will be on the letter, but I'm not convinced any witch or wizard is overseeing the production of all those letters. More likely there is some sort of charmed quill that addresses and continues to send undelivered letters. > 8. Feel free to suggest your own question. Potioncat: I can't think of any other questions--nice job, Zara! From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 15 02:15:50 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 02:15:50 -0000 Subject: Horcrux question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spa76" wrote: > Are we supposed to think Hermione was so focused she just > stabbed it with a basilisk fang straightaway, before Riddle's > soul could play any mind tricks on her? zanooda: I'm not sure the cup Horcrux could play serious mind tricks on Hermione, because it just didn't have enough time to find out what her fears and weaknesses were. Ron has been in contact with the locket for weeks, maybe even months (I can't remember right now when exactly he left, but HRH had the locket from the beginning of September). The soul bit in the locket knew exactly *how* to torment Ron, because it had enough time to establish the connection with him ("I have seen your heart, and it is mine"). Besides, Ron seems much more susceptible to "mind tricks" than Harry and Hermione, just look how Veelas affect him :-). So even if the cup tried something on Hermione in the Chamber of Secrets, it was probably not that effective, IMO. From rhkennerly at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 20:34:10 2009 From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:34:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: <8689654.1252959288218.JavaMail.root@n11> References: <8689654.1252959288218.JavaMail.root@n11> Message-ID: <4AAEA8C2.4050406@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187800 geoff_bannister wrote: > > > -- > > The terminology, which is probably confusing to folk outside the UK, > arises > from the fact that these schools were open to the fee-paying public - > obviously the well-off - as opposed to schools run by the Churc > -- John Granger in /Harry Potter's Bookshelf, the Great Books Behind the Hogwart's Adventure / explains that what Americans think of Public School would be called a Comprehensive School in the UK. US Private Schools (including church schools) would more or less equal Public Schools in the UK. and Private Tutoring or Home Schooling in the US would be considered a Private education in the UK. As Geoff makes the point, there are points of departure and as I read it Granger was looking more backward (the Tom Brown series, Bronte & Austen) than describing the current UK educational system, which is an appropriate vantage point. After all, HWs was much closer to a Medieval environment as far as architecture, quills, scrolls, and smoky sconces. Rick Kennerly Virginia Beach, VA www.mouseherder.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Sep 15 06:38:36 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 06:38:36 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Potioncat: > The tons and tons of letters that seem to follow after the Dursleys and Harry remind me of a certain type of magical story. One (of several) that comes to mind is Strega Nona. She has a magic pasta pot that won't stop producing pasta until a certain incantation is spoken. I know the basis is a little different, but there is an established folklore concerning something magical that continues to produce until the proper word is spoken, or correct action taken. Geoff: And the "Sorcerer's Apprentice? Potioncat: >5. Why does Petunia hand Vernon a fruitcake when he is nailing the mail slot shut instead of a hammer? > As I read it, he was nailing the door shut, and she handed him a snack. I didn't think the intent was to use the fruitcake on the nails. Maybe she was hoping the food would distract him. Fruitcake isn't something we typically eat in July in the US. Would Brits eat it this time of year? I think she was so befuddled that she took a forgotten Christmas cake from the pantry. In the US, we sometimes refer to someone being, "as nutty as a fruitcake." Nutty in this case means crazy. So I took it as sort of a visual pun. Is that phrase used the same way by Brits? Geoff: Don't confuse Christmas cake and fruit cake. The first *is* a fruitcake but a very rich one. We eat lighter fruit cakes at any time during the year. "Nutty as a fruit cake" is indeed a Brit expression. From margdean56 at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 16:00:22 2009 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 10:00:22 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187802 On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 12:38 AM, geoff_bannister wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Potioncat: > > The tons and tons of letters that seem to follow after the Dursleys and Harry remind me of a certain type of magical story. One (of several) that comes to mind is Strega Nona. She has a magic pasta pot that won't stop producing pasta until a certain incantation is spoken. I know the basis is a little different, but there is an established folklore concerning something magical that continues to produce until the proper word is spoken, or correct action taken. > > Geoff: > And the "Sorcerer's Apprentice? Margaret: Or the Finnish legend of the Sampo? (and why the sea is salty) --Margaret Dean From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 15 19:40:58 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:40:58 -0000 Subject: Horcrux question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187803 zanooda wrote: > > I'm not sure the cup Horcrux could play serious mind tricks on Hermione, because it just didn't have enough time to find out what her fears and weaknesses were. Ron has been in contact with the locket for weeks, maybe even months (I can't remember right now when exactly he left, but HRH had the locket from the beginning of September). > > The soul bit in the locket knew exactly *how* to torment Ron, because it had enough time to establish the connection with him ("I have seen your heart, and it is mine"). Besides, Ron seems much more susceptible to "mind tricks" than Harry and Hermione, just look how Veelas affect him :-). So even if the cup tried something on Hermione in the Chamber of Secrets, it was probably not that effective, IMO. Carol responds: I would add that, unlike a locket or a ring, which can be worn (or the ring could have been worn if it weren't cursed!) or a diary with which the reader is forced to interact, a cup can probably interact with its user only if it's drunk out of. I imagine that the tiara, which can also be worn, would interact with anyone who put it on and become somehow addictive (just as it was to Helena Ravenclaw before it even became a Horcrux). The wearer, however, would probably keep it secret just as Ginny kept the diary secret. But how can you wear a cup or otherwise interact with it? Only by drinking from it. What it would do to you then or how it would influence your mind, I can't guess. I'm quite sure that's why the cup (in a way, the "safest" Horcrux) is the only one that was destroyed offpage. I'm not denying Ron's susceptibility (though I don't think that the others were entirely immune to the Horcrux), but I think the fact that he wore the locket (near his heart) for prolonged periods had a lot to do with it, just as Ginny reacted directly with the diary (and was taken in by Tom's charm and seeming empathy). Probably, if the ring hadn't been cursed (possibly because in the ruins of the Gaunts' hovel, it was the least protected of the Horcruxes except the diary), it would have worked on the mind of the wearer in much the same way as the locket or (theoretically) the tiara. Carol, who imagines that the cup behaved exactly as Harry says the locket did when Ron stabbed it--it screamed and nothing else From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 15 20:42:17 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:42:17 -0000 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: <4AAEA8C2.4050406@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187804 Rick Kennerly wrote: > John Granger in /Harry Potter's Bookshelf, the Great Books Behind the Hogwart's Adventure / explains that what Americans think of Public School would be called a Comprehensive School in the UK. US Private Schools (including church schools) would more or less equal Public Schools in the UK. > As Geoff makes the point, there are points of departure and as I read it Granger was looking more backward (the Tom Brown series, Bronte & Austen) than describing the current UK educational system, which is an appropriate vantage point. After all, HWs was much closer to a Medieval environment as far as architecture, quills, scrolls, and smoky sconces. > Carol responds: Yes, except that Jane Austen's characters don't go to school and Jane Eyre's school is a nightmare (though the children don't wear uniforms). But we were discussing Muggle school uniforms (Dudley's for Smeltings, which seems to be a parody of English public school uniforms) and the one Harry would have worn for Stonewall High, which (IMO) sounds more like a prison uniform than anything worn at a comprehensive school (I hope). Here's a uniform for King's School, Rochester, the sort of thing that JKR seems to be poking fun at via Dudley's Smeltings uniform: http://www.archivist.f2s.com/bsu/boater/btr3.jpg And there's the still more distinctive and very old-fashioned uniform still worn by students at Christ's Hospital: http://www.archivist.f2s.com/bsu/ch/ch4.jpg I can't find one that's really close to Smeltings' (with knickerbockers), but maybe someone from England can help me. I agree that the Hogwarts environment and its uniforms are medieval(I think the robes resemble the academic gowns worn by Oxford students from its founding until at least the early twentieth century), but it, too, has elements of the British public school (or boarding school). However, as of the chapter we're discussing, neither the reader nor Harry has seen them yet. Carol, thanking Geoff for clarifying the concept of a British public school From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Sep 15 22:38:07 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:38:07 -0000 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol: > Yes, except that Jane Austen's characters don't go to school and Jane Eyre's school is a nightmare (though the children don't wear uniforms). But we were discussing Muggle school uniforms (Dudley's for Smeltings, which seems to be a parody of English public school uniforms) and the one Harry would have worn for Stonewall High, which (IMO) sounds more like a prison uniform than anything worn at a comprehensive school (I hope). > Here's a uniform for King's School, Rochester, the sort of thing that JKR seems to be poking fun at via Dudley's Smeltings uniform: > > http://www.archivist.f2s.com/bsu/boater/btr3.jpg > > And there's the still more distinctive and very old-fashioned uniform still worn by students at Christ's Hospital: > > http://www.archivist.f2s.com/bsu/ch/ch4.jpg > I can't find one that's really close to Smeltings' (with knickerbockers), but maybe someone from England can help me. Geoff: I think that is the important point, that JKR, as far as I can see, is not modelling Smeltings' uniform on any one specific school but merely producing a parody, as you observe. Many British public schools wear a normal uniform. I quoted Taunton School in a recent post where male pupils wear dark grey suits. You mention Christ's Hospital. You may have noticed that, in a recent post, I said that my Junior School headmaster in London tried to encourage me to sit the entrance scholarship exam for the school and l kicked against it because I didn't want to be away from home at 9. I now recall that i was also put off by the uniform and how folk where I lived would react to seeing me in it. Going back to my comment in the last paragraph, this school was a mediaeval foundation and, like some public schools, has kept to the tradition of its early uniform. With regard to Stonewall High, I think you are reading too much into the description to label it as a prison uniform. Over the last thirty years or so, school uniform has been greatly simplified, partly because of cost and partly because of the generally more relaxed attitudes to dress. The days of blazers and ties are over in the great majority of schools. In my own area, the usual uniform code will be a white or plain coloured shirt with a jumper with perhaps a school logo on the left breast plus grey or navy trousers or skirts. As a more detailed example, the West Somerset Community College in Minehead majors on blue: mid-blue shirts, navy blue jumpers and grey trousers and skirts. We know little of Stonewall except that some elements of the uniform are grey. Petunia is dyeing some of Dudley's old clothes obviously to avoid paying anything out for the "freak". The reference to elephant skin is that Harry is seeing the clothes in the tub when they are wet and certainly wrinkled and expects that they will come out looking patchy and very unlikely to be ironed. We don't necessarily know that Stonewall is a comprehensive school. The odds are that it is, but there are some Local Education Authorities (LEAs) who have dragged their heels for years over implementing the change. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Sep 16 01:50:04 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 01:50:04 -0000 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187806 > Carol: snip the one Harry would have worn for Stonewall High, which (IMO) sounds more like a prison uniform than anything worn at a comprehensive school (I hope). > > Geoff: snip > > With regard to Stonewall High, I think you are reading too much into the > description to label it as a prison uniform. Potioncat: I agree with Carol...and with Geoff. (wishy-washy, that's me!) No, seriously, I think the over all impression of the uniform--as we experience it--brings to mind a prison suit. Unpleasant smell, wet, wrinkled grey clothing---yuch. It is a drab contrast to Dudley's. Add to the name, "Stonewall High" which sounds to me like "high stone wall" and prison just looms over it all. On the other hand, Harry knows his uniform isn't going to look like the others, nor will it fit him and grey is a perfectly nice color for suits and skirt sets. But as we read this incident, the impression forms even as we move on to the next part of the story. Potioncat, who would rather wear the Stonewall uniform than the Smeltings one. From rhkennerly at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 11:38:24 2009 From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 07:38:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horcrux question In-Reply-To: <26252165.1252962080523.JavaMail.root@n11> References: <26252165.1252962080523.JavaMail.root@n11> Message-ID: <4AAF7CB0.2030004@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187807 > > > Sandie: > > Are we supposed to think Hermione was so focused she just stabbed it > with a basilisk fang straightaway, before Riddle's soul could play any > mindtricks on her?. > > I understood the lack of detail as intentional to keep the story moving, after all the war was heating up and there was a lot going on--the fog of war and all that. That job's done, let's get on with the rest of it, seemed to be JKR's intent. After all, there's a lot we don't know. In the greater scheme of things, a lot of characters died and we really don't know how...exactly. -- Rick Kennerly Virginia Beach, VA www.mouseherder.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 16 03:20:45 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:20:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > 2. Vernon is described as grayish white after he reads the first line of Harry's letter. Petunia is described as looking like she might faint, clutching her throat, and making a choking noise. What do you make of these reactions? What do you think is behind them? Alla: I think besides those reactions is simple animalistic fear, fear of everything that is different (I can think of few things in RL which seems scary for people who want normalcy). After rereading these parts I may feel a tiny tiny bit pity for Dursleys, oh do not get me wrong, I hate them, but they never wanted to stay connected with the world they seem to despise (even though Petunia wanted oh ever so badly to belong to it at first) and nobody asked their opinion. I despise them for mistreating their nephew, but I do wish that wizards (AKA Dumbledore) just let them be and let them live the life that they wanted for themselves. I know, it would have seem a very scary thought for Dumbledore to let people choose how they want to live their lives, sigh. I am not saying it because I like Dursleys, I just know how much I would hate if somebody decided to make such humongous decision for me. And no, I do not think that Dursleys would have been in much danger from Voldemort in the later books if Harry was not staying with them. I mean obviously if Voldemort would have taken over muggles would have been killed, I know that, but the thing is, while we see casualties and death among muggles in HBP and DH, we do not see many, right? I think Dursleys would have had a very good chance to stay safe and sound in their pathetic little world but for Dumbledore imposing Harry on them and surviving intact. IMO of course. 3. "I'm not having one in the house, Petunia! Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that dangerous nonsense?" Harry and Dudley overhear Vernon saying these words to Petunia in their discussion of the letter. What does this tell us about Vernon and Petunia? Alla: The essence of my answer is pretty much the same as to the previous question, fear of the unknown, etc, but this is actually the line that stuck with me for quite some time after I read PS. I was wondering whom did they swear it to, till I realized that they swore it to themselves, lol. 4. Why do you think Vernon and Petunia decide to move Harry into a bedroom? Alla: Same thing, and I think another damning evidence for Dumbledore's inaction as to not checking on Harry for ten years. I know, I know, I am singing same tune, I swear when Dumbledore's presence will not be in the chapter I will not talk about him ;) But think about it, a letter was enough to move Harry out of that cupboard, just a letter. Imagine what a visit from Dumbledore would have done, sigh. 5. Why does Petunia hand Vernon a fruitcake when he is nailing the mail slot shut instead of a hammer? Alla: Personally I found it hilarious; I thought it was done to show Dursleys' absurdity how idiotic they look in their desire to be normal, if that makes sense. For some reason fruitcake screamed nutcake to me, or something to that effect. Thank you for great questions Zara. From POWERBABE7 at aol.com Wed Sep 16 00:29:32 2009 From: POWERBABE7 at aol.com (POWERBABE7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:29:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CC047BE51C84AB-39F0-164EE@webmail-m055.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187809 >> 7. The chapter is called "Letters from No One". Who do you think it responsible for sending these letters to Harry? Why the misleading chapter title? > Potioncat: > Is it misleading? Who would send a letter to Harry? > No one--hence the title. > > McGonagall's signature will be on the letter, but I'm > not convinced any witch or wizard is overseeing the > production of all those letters. More likely there is > some sort of charmed quill that addresses and continues > to send undelivered letters. I believe the chapter is not necessarily misleading. I seem to recall Harry asking The Dursleys who the letters were from and Vernon said No One, hence the title of the chapter. Just my two cents. Gina D. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 16 16:39:44 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 16:39:44 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187810 > > Questions for Discussion: > > 1. This chapter seems to have a lot of over the top action in it. The Smeltings uniform (maroon tailcoat, orange knickerbockers, a straw boater, and a knobbly stick?!), the Stonewall uniform Petunia attempts to imitate (compared to elephant skins), and the extremes to which Vernon goes to avoid the letters. What was your reaction to these? Are there others in the chapter I missed? How do you feel they contributed to/detracted from the book, and how do you see them fitting into the series now? Pippin: The "knobbly sticks, used for hitting each other when the teachers weren't looking " as "good training for later life" now remind me of Hogwarts students and their wands. But Vernon has a nerve complaining about the way wizards dress. JKR is showing us that the Muggle world can be as bizarre as the WW, but she's also playing with the reader's tendency to stereotype. The impression in PS/SS is that Smeltings trains its students to be bullies and Hogwarts does not. Like many other stereotypes in the series, it isn't so much overturned later on as shown to be simplistic. > 2. Vernon is described as grayish white after he reads the first line of Harry's letter. Petunia is described as looking like she might faint, clutching her throat, and making a choking noise. What do you make of these reactions? What do you think is behind them? Pippin: Vernon seems frightened of anything he can't control. I think Petunia is a little smarter -- she can see the implications of Harry gaining control of his powers and they're not good. > > 3. "I'm not having one in the house, Petunia! Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that dangerous nonsense?" Harry and Dudley overhear Vernon saying these words to Petunia in their discussion of the letter. What does this tell us about Vernon and Petunia? Pippin: It tells us Vernon wouldn't have had Harry in the house unless he thought the magic could be stamped out of him, and Petunia let him think it was possible. But she'll admit in the next chapter that she knew Harry was just as "abnormal" as Lily was. Petunia knew that Harry's eleventh birthday was coming, and yet she wasn't alarmed before the letters started to arrive. For ten years the WW had left her in peace, aside from occasional encounters with oddly dressed people far from Privet Drive. Harry hadn't discovered that he was magical, and she may have hoped that she'd fooled the wizarding world as well. Clearly she didn't think that Harry's future was important to wizards, and clearly she was wrong. JKR's chronologies are the despair of the well-organized mind. But it seems that within hours of leaving Harry at Privet Drive, Dumbledore was enlisting Snape to protect him against Voldemort's return. As part of that protection, Snape will pretend to his fellow Death Eaters that he thinks Voldemort is gone for good. The elaborate show of abandoning Harry in a bundle of blankets on the Dursleys' doorstep must have been part of a similar charade. We see now how successful it was. No one pays attention to what Hagrid thinks, but the Death Eaters would not have left their master alone and friendless for thirteen years if it looked like *Dumbledore* thought he'd be back. And as long as it looks like Dumbledore thinks Harry's destiny was fulfilled at Godric's Hollow, Voldemort may think he can afford to eliminate Harry at his leisure and not as his first priority. It is therefore in both Dumbledore's and Harry's interest that Dumbledore acts as if he meant to leave Harry to his fate. I think Petunia's smart enough to realize that not providing protection to Harry would not make her safer if Voldemort came back. Even the potential to protect Harry is a danger. Voldemort would want to see that this power, which he knows about, can not be used. > > 4. Why do you think Vernon and Petunia decide to move Harry into a bedroom? Pippin: Their relationship to Harry is a bit like the relationship of Sirius to Kreacher, IMO. The Dursleys aren't hateful to children generally, or Dudley's friends wouldn't be coming over every day. But they don't think of Harry as being like other children. I think Petunia is determined to see that Dudley never feels slighted the way she did, and this feeling swallows up any pity or concern she might have felt for Harry's plight. The Dursleys don't care about Harry's needs or feelings, but they fear unwelcome attention from others. However, as elsewhere in the series, fear proves to be a poor way of controlling people, and usually produces a backlash of some kind. The bedroom is better than the cupboard, but the hut on the rock is undoubtedly worse. > 5. Why does Petunia hand Vernon a fruitcake when he is nailing the mail slot shut instead of a hammer? Pippin: I also thought she was handing him a snack, and he was distracted enough to mistake it for a hammer. But it's possible that she was distracted too. > > 6. Any opinions as to why green ink is used in these letters (which we now know are his Hogwarts letters, of course)? Or purple wax? Pippin: It's just the general flamboyance of the wizarding world, IMO, which retained its preference for bright colors while the industrial Muggle world began favoring blacks and greys to hide the soot. Of course by the time of our story, the Muggles are using eckletricity while the wizarding world is full of lamps, candles, fireplaces and steam trains. But customs once entrenched are hard to shift. > > 7. The chapter is called "Letters from No One". Who do you think it responsible for sending these letters to Harry? Why the misleading chapter title? > Pippin: Vernon says they're from no one, that they are addressed to Harry by mistake. Even Harry can see that this is an obvious lie. It won't be the only time in canon that a chapter title is misleading. Pippin From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Sep 16 20:05:52 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:05:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > 4. Why do you think Vernon and Petunia decide to move Harry into a bedroom? Pippin: > Their relationship to Harry is a bit like the relationship of Sirius to Kreacher, IMO. The Dursleys aren't hateful to children generally, or Dudley's friends wouldn't be coming over every day. But they don't think of Harry as being like other children. I think Petunia is determined to see that Dudley never feels slighted the way she did, and this feeling swallows up any pity or concern she might have felt for Harry's plight. Geoff: My original take on it was that the Dursleys in some way feared that more letters might be delivered or that some other form of contact might occur. With hindsight, knowing that Petunia was not ignorant about the workings of the Wizarding World, she might well have expected this but perhaps the apparent disinterest of the Wizarding World over ten years had initially lulled them into thinking that any contact could be easily rebuffed by moving Harry's location - a view which proved futile. Their flight was progressively tracked by the deliveries, first to the Railview Hotel at Cokeworth and finally when Hagrid caught up with them. The delivery of the letter was intended from day one. This was intimated in Dumbledore's comment to Professor McGonagall after Godric's Hollow: '"Famous for something he won't even remember! Can't you see how much better off he'll be growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it?"' (PS "The Boy Who Lived" p.16 UK edition) The Hogwarts contact was "in the diary" from that date onwards. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Sep 16 23:56:44 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:56:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CC05407A18D6B5-33F8-B607@webmail-m032.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187812 -----Original Message----- Recent Activity 13 New Members Visit Your Group Give Back Yahoo! for Good Get inspired by a good cause. Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Sep 17 01:35:16 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 01:35:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187813 > Pippin: > JKR's chronologies are the despair of the well-organized mind. But it seems that within hours of leaving Harry at Privet Drive, Dumbledore was enlisting Snape to protect him against Voldemort's return. Potioncat: Why do you think the conversation with Snape took place after Harry was left at the Dursleys? I don't have my book with me to double check, but I had the impression that the conversation with Snape took place almost immediately after DD found out about the Potters. Snape doesn't act like someone who has known about Lily all day. So I think DD sent Hagrid for Harry, then spoke to Snape, then did some more unknown stuff, then went to the Dursleys that evening. I never thought about the impression DD was giving by leaving Harry with his Muggle relatives---that he wasn't expecting LV back. But I think you're right. I also think DD couldn't check on Harry personally because he didn't want LV to know that DD held any special concern for Harry. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 17 02:31:08 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 02:31:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187814 > > Potioncat: > Why do you think the conversation with Snape took place after Harry was left at the Dursleys? I don't have my book with me to double check, but I had the impression that the conversation with Snape took place almost immediately after DD found out about the Potters. Snape doesn't act like someone who has known about Lily all day. Pippin: I was trying to indicate that the two events weren't far apart but we couldn't say for certain which happens first -- everything could change if JKR decides to resolve the missing 24 hours. Snape, like McGonagall, might have been unwilling to believe that Lily was dead until he heard it from Dumbledore. If so, the conversation in DH could have taken place after Dumbledore returned to Hogwarts. I had the impression that Dumbledore had already seen the scar, and realized what it meant. Pippin From s_ings at yahoo.com Thu Sep 17 10:15:41 2009 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (S_Ings) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 10:15:41 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187815 *List Elves scurry about under a ceiling glowing with fireworks* Zippy Elf : What's going on here? Penapart Elf : Who set off fireworks in here? We're going to get in trouble! *Shorty Elf cowers behind the door* It wasn't me! *Cardi Elf pushes in a trolley of nibblies* Phlytie Elf: Did you see that bar over in the corner? Alika Elf: If we start giving them butterbeer and firewhiskey there's going to be trouble! Rylly Elf: I know! Give them drinks and the next thing you know there'll be OT-ness and other shenanigans happening on Main. Heidi: Don't you guys know what today is? *the List Elves stop in their tracks and stare at each other* Kroppy Elf: No way! Vexxy Elf: You've got to be kidding me! Already? Marvin Elf: You know what they say - time flies when you're having fun! Kelley Elf: I think we better let everyone know what's going on. Amandageist: I know! We can send a memo to the List Members! *Rylly Elf name steps up to a podium, shakes out an official looking parchment and starts reading* Memo from HPFGU Hexquarters Topic: Party on Main To Our Esteemed List Members: Some of you may have noticed the commotion happening here on the HPFGU Main List. Yes, it's highly unusual for the List Elves to promote wanton off-topic-ness here, but right now we're allowing it. In fact, we're going to ask you to please be off-topic until the end of the day Sunday. Why, you might ask? Well, there's something special happening here on HPFGU. We're celebrating our 10 year anniversary! That's right - TEN YEARS! That's a very long time and we're asking you to join the celebration. For those who want to take a look back at the beginnings of this group, we have archives! Pull your chair up to this group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives/ and see how it all started and how far we've come. You might be surprised to see some familiar names. It's amazing how long some of us have been members of the group! We know you're all up for a party, so fill a plate with food, grab your favourite drink from the bar and help us mark this special occasion with your memories of the time you've spent here! We realise some of you will have no problem joining the festivities and speaking up. Some of the more quiet List Members might need some encouragement. To that end, we've come up with some ideas as to how you can share the fun. We've thought up some questions that might help jog the memory. Feel free to answer any or all of them. Add your own. Or just tell us your thoughts on your time here at HPFGU. How long have you been a member of HPFGU? How did you find us? What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Favourite post of your own to the group? Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life meetings/friendships? Along the journey, we've also lost members. Please, take a moment to remember those no longer with us. Say a few words on their behalf. Share your favourite memory of them with us and help us remember them with you. This group has been many things to many people. A place to discuss, debate, argue, agree, celebrate and commiserate. Today we're asking you to celebrate with us. Without you, there is no HPFGU. HPly yours, The List Elves Zaney Elf: Is she done talking yet? Twisp Elf: I hope so, I'm nearly faint with hunger. Blinky Elf: Never mind food, I'm heading for the butterbeer! Corbie Elf: Okay, but no getting drunk and running amok. You'll scare the List Members! Speedy Elf: Are you kidding, everyone's always up for a party. Crikey Elf: I think there's only one thing left to say. Kroppy Elf: What's that? List Elves, in unison: HAPPY ANNIVERSARY! *a small voice from the back, Exmoor Elf, adds, "Let's Party"* From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 17 14:55:40 2009 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:55:40 -0000 Subject: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0909091010t134d0deetb5a5507a035561fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187816 Bart: Thanks. Which still makes me wonder how Molly got recruited to sacrifice as much as she did for the 2nd OOP so early on. But that sounds like a job for fanfic. Lynda: Well let's consider: By the time the 2nd OOP is created Molly is not 1)Newly married 2)Very possibly expecting a child 3) Very possibly has young children at home 4) having to cope with protective male siblings. Having lost her brothers and needing to protect her own now older children probably had a lot to do with her decision to join. Offhand, I know many women who would do the same. (Women are fiercely protective when it comes to their kids). Janelle: I agree with Lynda's thoughts on this, but I also wanted to add something else about how Molly and Arthur came to be recruited to the Order the second time around. I don't think Dumbledore necessarily would have sought them out had they not already become such a large part of Harry's life. Harry and Ron becoming friends gave the Weasley's a much larger role in the whole war than they might have had otherwise. Harry had already spent time with the Weasleys in COS, POA, and GOF: they had to have been let in on certain aspects of what was necessary to protect Harry while he was in their care, which would have meant forming a closer relationship with Dumbledore. I think that Dumbledore grew to trust Arthur and Molly more and more as he observed their interactions with Harry and so, when the time came to re-form the order, they were at the top of his list of new recruits. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 17 15:56:45 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:56:45 -0000 Subject: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187817 Janelle: > > I agree with Lynda's thoughts on this, but I also wanted to add something else about how Molly and Arthur came to be recruited to the Order the second time around. > > I don't think Dumbledore necessarily would have sought them out had they not already become such a large part of Harry's life. Harry and Ron becoming friends gave the Weasley's a much larger role in the whole war than they might have had otherwise. Harry had already spent time with the Weasleys in COS, POA, and GOF: they had to have been let in on certain aspects of what was necessary to protect Harry while he was in their care, which would have meant forming a closer relationship with Dumbledore. > > I think that Dumbledore grew to trust Arthur and Molly more and more as he observed their interactions with Harry and so, when the time came to re-form the order, they were at the top of his list of new recruits. > Carol responds: I agree. And Dumbledore can use as many spies as possible at the MoM, so it makes sense to recruit the absent Arthur. But also since he intended to (re)recruit Sirius Black and induct his faithful spy, Snape, into the Order on the spot, it was common courtesy to induct the also-faithful McGonagall and the Weasleys at the same time. Expressing faith in Ron's family would also help cement (or reward) Ron's loyalty to Harry. I find it interesting that DD doesn't actally mention the Order. He only states that there's work to be done and asks if he can count on Molly and Arthur. Bill more or less recruits himself by offering to take the message to Arthur. Then he sends McGonagall on an Order-related errand (asking Hagrid and Madame Maxime to come to his office as soon as possible--more new recruits with a specific mission) and then sends Madam Pomfrey to look after Winky (it's not clear whether that's just her job or whether she's also a member of the Order). Only at that point does he ask Black to assume his usual form and shake hands with Snape and send them on their respective missions, Black's first. Molly, in short, is placed on the same level of trust as HRH. She must be the one who informs Arthur and Bill that both Snape and Black are helping DD, too. (Of course, she and Bill, along with McGonagall, have already witnessed Snape's revealing his Dark Mark to Fudge.) At any rate, the missions seem to be assigned in order of secrecy, with Snape's last, and Molly watches him leave along with HRH (but, of course, none of them knows where he's going). For DD, who usually operates in absolute secrecy, that's a high level of trust. Carol, just wondering whether anyone else perceives these events this way From bart at moosewise.com Thu Sep 17 17:17:11 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:17:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AB26F17.2020902@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187818 justcarol67 wrote: > At any rate, the missions seem to be assigned in order of secrecy, with Snape's last, and Molly watches him leave along with HRH (but, of course, none of them knows where he's going). For DD, who usually operates in absolute secrecy, that's a high level of trust. > > Carol, just wondering whether anyone else perceives these events this way Bart: If you go back to my original question, you will see that this was the way I was seeing it, too. I'm thinking (and probably far too much) that Molly's brothers may have had something to do with this; perhaps, although she wasn't in the "inner circle", she was involved. Note that, during WWII, many helped out the French Resistance without actually being a part of it. Bart From thedossetts at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 17:52:50 2009 From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:52:50 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 3, The Letters from No One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "geoff_bannister" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > > 4. Why do you think Vernon and Petunia decide to move Harry into a bedroom? > > Pippin: > > Their relationship to Harry is a bit like the relationship of Sirius to Kreacher, IMO. The Dursleys aren't hateful to children generally, or Dudley's friends wouldn't be coming over every day. But they don't think of Harry as being like other children. I think Petunia is determined to see that Dudley never feels slighted the way she did, and this feeling swallows up any pity or concern she might have felt for Harry's plight. > > Geoff: > My original take on it was that the Dursleys in some way feared that more > letters might be delivered or that some other form of contact might occur. > > With hindsight, knowing that Petunia was not ignorant about the workings > of the Wizarding World, she might well have expected this but perhaps the > apparent disinterest of the Wizarding World over ten years had initially lulled > them into thinking that any contact could be easily rebuffed by moving Harry's > location - a view which proved futile. > > Their flight was progressively tracked by the deliveries, first to the Railview > Hotel at Cokeworth and finally when Hagrid caught up with them. The > delivery of the letter was intended from day one. This was intimated in > Dumbledore's comment to Professor McGonagall after Godric's Hollow: > '"Famous for something he won't even remember! Can't you see how much > better off he'll be growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it?"' > (PS "The Boy Who Lived" p.16 UK edition) > > The Hogwarts contact was "in the diary" from that date onwards. > Pat, delurking for a minute: I always thought the reason for the move was to avoid any consequences from the Wizarding World for mistreatment: "Vernon, " Aunt Petunia was saying in a quivering voice, "look at the address - how could they possibly know where he sleeps? You don't think they're watching the house?" "Watching - spying - might be following us," muttered Uncle Vernon wildly. Ch. 3, p. 36 (Am. version) They seemed so worried there, it has always struck me that they were afraid of retaliation. As they should have been! ~Pat, back to lurkdom; thanking Zara for the great questions and everyone else for interesting answers! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 18 02:29:45 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 02:29:45 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187820 How long have you been a member of HPFGU? Alla: Oh dear, it had been seven years. Time flies indeed. I should say though that I had been an active member for probably five and a half/ six years, it took me more than a year to actually start talking. How did you find us? Alla: I was just looking for some place to discuss Harry Potter and was just searching randomly and here we go ?? What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? My best experience here is truly how much I learned over the years from so many amazing writers who post here. Seriously, I do not think my English would ever be perfect, but sometimes I am catching myself that I am repeating the whole phrases that stuck with me here. And I just learned not to be afraid and write, write, write. What's been your favorite topic of discussion? Alla: Hmmmmm. Well there is that certain S character I used to discuss fairly often ;) My favorite topics were character interactions, always, always. Favorite post of your own to the group? I really do not feel that my posts are as good in comparison to so many others, but I suppose this one is okay. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177556?threaded=1&l=1 Favorite post of anyone else's to the group? Now this is the hardest question for sure, because it is so so so hard to choose. I can name so many people whose many posts I admire, but it is so hard to choose just one post. I mean, there were writers with whom I agreed and loved their posts; there were writers with whom I disagreed and loved their posts so so much. Okay, how about I will cheat and choose two? Hey, at least I am not listing ten here, hehe or twenty or thirty. I could that you better believe it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131798?threaded=1&l=1 So this is the post I love for hilarious defense of the character I adore, so besides agreeing I just find it very very funny. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/147110?threaded=1&l=1 You know how I despise Snape for prophecy thing (and many others), but I was just so loving this post and laughing so so hard. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/149959?threaded=1&l=1 Oh this is one theory about Snape I so wanted to come true. Alas. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/153541?threaded=1&l=1 This was one of the posts that made me think oh god, I want to write like this when I grow up and I wish I could put together theories in such cool way. If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Oh yes, obviously I wanted to know how it all ends, whether Snape is good or bad, etc, and whether Harry lives or not, but this was all before last book. Now I think (at least today) that my only question would be when everything said and done, does she in her head thinks of Albus Dumbledore as good person. I usually like agreeing with the author, if I can of course, and this one just buggs me I guess. Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life meetings/friendships? Oh yes! I usually use the word ??friend?? very sparingly in RL and trust me I would not call a lot of people my friends (even if I am friendly with them, to me it is just acquaintances for the most part, but there are several people on this group whom I met in RL and whom I consider to be very good friends of mine. And plenty of people whom I consider to be great online buddies. Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Sep 18 02:52:54 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 02:52:54 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187821 > > List Elves, in unison: HAPPY ANNIVERSARY Potioncat stands in the middle of the room, balancing a plate of various chocolate confections on one arm while pouring through a small, thick daytimer. She's turning pages, looking for dates and post numbers. *a small voice from the back, Exmoor Elf, adds, "Let's Party"* Someone asks: How did you find us? Potioncat: I was reading a book about Mysteries of Harry Potter. It was good, but how do you have a discussion with a book? Well, other than books that will take you to a dark place and suck out your soul. I guess something in the book indicated there were discussion groups on line and I went looking. I liked the grown-up nature here. No one was squealing about how much they loved Ron or Harry. Squealing about how much someone loved Sirius or Severus is a different matter and completely understandable. What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Potioncat: "Oops" has been the most fun--an unprovable who-done-it. The timeline threads have been lots of fun. Two that stand out are the one around Snape's response to Harry after Harry was caught by Umbridge and the time line for the episode in the Shrieking Shack with the Trio and the Marauders and Snape. What was so much fun, was that so many list members pulled from real life data to work out what time it must have been based on sunset, or how long it should have taken to fly to London. How could we have thought JKR was that detail oriented when we already had hints about her maths? But I've also enjoyed the threads in which we read between the lines for certain events; offering different interpretations of why characters were doing whatever it was they did. I have to look back to see when I actually started posting. And I'm not sure if I can locate some of my favorite posts. But you know, it would be nice if some of the no-longer-active-members could join us for the party. I think I might dash off an e-mail or two. Then I'll rejoin the conversation. OT on main, this is a wild party! From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Wed Sep 16 23:06:57 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:06:57 -0000 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187822 > Potioncat: > I agree with Carol...and with Geoff. > (wishy-washy, that's me!) > No, seriously, I think the over all impression of the uniform--as we experience it--brings to mind a prison suit. Unpleasant smell, wet, wrinkled grey clothing---yuch. It is a drab contrast to Dudley's. Add to the name, "Stonewall High" which sounds to me like "high stone wall" and prison just looms over it all. > > On the other hand, Harry knows his uniform isn't going to look like the others, nor will it fit him and grey is a perfectly nice color for suits and skirt sets. > > But as we read this incident, the impression forms even as we move on to the next part of the story. > > Potioncat, who would rather wear the Stonewall uniform than the Smeltings one. zfshiruba: It shows just how much of an American I can be sometimes that I really didn't pick up on the "stone wall" connotation until the prison comparison. In the States, or at least, my part of the States Stonewall High would just mean that its in the south and your school teams are probably the Generals. Do comprehensive schools wear uniforms then? Speaking of Dudley's uniform, I can understand the Dursleys' blindness but is everyone who goes to school with him blind too? Or does pride in tradition overrule basic embarrassment? Is tradition or going against tradition more common in the books? From toohsieh at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 08:30:39 2009 From: toohsieh at gmail.com (flawed_merit) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:30:39 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187823 This is my very first post, ever, in HPFGU, and I'm amazed that it's actually ten years old! I am charmed at its longevity--bewitched, spellbound even. (Okay, I'll stop.) But happy birthday! Here's to another ten! > How long have you been a member of HPFGU? Hsieh: I honestly haven't been here that long. Less than a year, definitely--which in the scheme of things is little more than a blip. But reading all these great posts--that is to say, lurking indefinitely--makes me wish I were here when at least some of the books were still unreleased. Oh, the squandered suspense! It's lost on me, now. > How did you find us? Hsieh: I was looking for a place to discuss Harry Potter in a mature fashion, i.e. none of the "Voldemort is cooler than Harry because he is evil and stuff" schlock one finds everywhere, and I stumbled upon HPFGU! Well, actually, I had a question of my own I wanted to discuss before, but it's been answered since then. Sort of. Maybe I'll bring up a topic later. > What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? Hsieh: It'd definitely have to be realizing that people actually discuss Harry Potter in the aforementioned mature fashion--that people write paragraph after paragraph about what the general populace deems a children's book series. After I read some of the posts when I got here for the first time, I became both extremely happy and extremely scared--because though I had definitely wanted to contribute before, I suddenly realized that I'd have to step up my game quite a bit as to not look like a complete nut. > What's been your favourite topic of discussion? > Favourite post of your own to the group? Hsieh: Again, I haven't actually participated in discussion yet (I'm--it's just very frightening), but I've enjoyed everything having to do with the rough facets of ol' Dumbledore that everyone -else- has discussed, haha. > Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? Hsieh: I've really been just going along for the ride so far--I'm still absolutely new, after all. :( But I'm sure I'll find a favorite soon. > If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Hsieh: I was going to say I'd ask her to wrap up all her plot holes, but then what would there be left to discuss? > Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life > meetings/friendships? Hsieh: Hard to make friends when I haven't said anything (hey, this post changes that!) but maybe I'll contribute soon and maybe even make some friends. Hey, we'll see! Despite my definite lurker status, I find HPFGU absolutely enthralling and love reading everything everyone has to say. I'm so glad I've managed to find this group, even this late in its age! Happy birthday again, and congrats, HPFGU. From heidi at heidi8.com Fri Sep 18 12:14:42 2009 From: heidi at heidi8.com (heiditandy) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:14:42 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187824 Happy (one day belated) birthday, y'all! The Elf Squad was working on this email earlier in the week while I was sitting at Universal Studios' CityWalk area, waiting to go to a reception for the announcements about the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, which opens next spring in time for Infinitus2010.org (July 15 - 18) and spent some time flipping back through posts I made and read here back in 2000 through 2003, which is when I was most active on the lists. I've hovered around since then and while I was completely offlist in 2004, I don't think I ever will be again. Too much history in this place. So, the survey/meme thing: How long have you been a member of HPFGU? Since the day before GoF was released. How did you find us? There was an article in the Washington Post about a Yahoo Club called Harry Potter for Grown-Ups and I spent over an hour looking for it via Yahoo's then-mediocre search engines. I joined - and posted within about 30 minutes. Yeah, I know. But I did read a few days' posts before I did. I swear! What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? Every group meetup I've had with people I met on HPfGU was fantastic. Meeting a dozen HPfGU-ers at Serendipity's on what turned out to be the Saturday before 9/11 was the first time, then Nimbus 2003 and POAIMAXNYC in 2004 and al1 the other events since. Most unexpected experience? Probably the fact that the ban on fic discussion on this list in early 2001 led, in a roundabout way, to the creation of FictionAlley in the summer of 2001, which led to me being quoted in an article on the front page of the NY Times in May of 2002, which is just something one never expects to have happen. What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Draco, and/or Sirius. I loved the Black family before we even knew they were one family! Favourite post of your own to the group? mmmm, probbaly my last paragraph here - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52462 - although I admit being incorrect in saying that Draco was not a "Black" character, 'cause he is, on his mom's side. ;) Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? Alix's Sirius Black Is Dead Sexy, JKR Told Me SO: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/255 If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? What stories didn't you get to tell on the pages? Also - "chest monster" Seriously? That's the metaphor you wanted? Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life meetings/friendships? Yes. I may be able to technically count it at a thousand or so, by this point, because of all the cons I've attended. Fandom is my fandom! Heidi T, Listee since 2000 Come full circle in Orlando at INFINITUS 2010 July 15 - 18, 2010 http://www.infinitus2010.org From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Sep 18 13:02:38 2009 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:02:38 -0500 Subject: Are we really that old? Message-ID: <3c62e2480909180602i185667d0we6effd7fa1fa447d@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187825 It's been so long since I posted that I don't even know where to start, but I promised Heidi I would, so here we go. :D 1. How long have you been a member of HPFGU? For those who don't remember me (and why would you, I haven't posted anything since 2003 I don't think) -- I was the 2nd "list mom" for this group. I joined the Yahoo Club version of this group in January 2000, when there were only about 100 members. About 2 months later, the original owner of the group approached me about taking over ownership as she was too swamped with other interests to keep up with the group anymore. I was List Mom, flying solo, for some time after GoF was released, but then the list's explosive growth led me to recruit a few other people to be group moderators also (Flying_Ford_Anglia and John were the first 2 moderators). We eventually expanded to a team of 7 moderators and numerous List Elves..... but I admit to not knowing what kind of admin structure is in place now. :) 2. How did you find us? Surfing the web after finishing PoA and desperate to talk to other obsessed fans, I found the Yahoo Club version 3. What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? The lasting friendships made with this large and diverse group of fans! 4. What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Well, I haven't discussed anything here since 2003, but back then it would have been: Harry/Hermione shipping, Hermione generally, Sirius and the Marauders, PINE (Percy is Not Evil), HP is not "just" children's literature, and crazy flint-like things like the Student Population at Hogwarts. 5. Favourite post of your own to the group? I truly don't remember and no time to search. 6. Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? See above, but I do remember well that post that Heidi referenced about "Sirius Dead Sexy and I heard JKR say it myself." That was a good one! :) 7. If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Well ..... that's tough to answer for several reasons. Yeah, I think I'll just say "pass." 8. Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life meetings/friendships? Yes, absolutely! Many of my Facebook friends are old long-time HP fandom friends, and I've been very involved with HPEF events, starting with Nimbus. It's always great to meet up with my friends here, and some of them have been my friends for nearly 10 years. Amazing! I'm really glad to know that this group is still going strong, and if I had more than token free time these days (my kids are 8 and 4.5), I would love to participate some. Maybe someday? After all, it looks like the group will be here for many years to come, and that's a good thing to know. Thanks to everyone who has worked so hard to keep it running smoothly! Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledad at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 18 13:20:16 2009 From: dumbledad at yahoo.co.uk (dumbledad) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:20:16 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187826 Wow, what a happy day! >>> How long have you been a member of HPFGU? My first post is #38069 on 23/4/02, and my first signed as "Dumbledad" was on 13/7/02. So I've been on board for 7 years and 5 months. >>> How did you find us? Good question ? I cannot remember! >>> What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? Best is just the quality of debate ? people who know the books (and the history of the discussions here) so well that it puts me to shame. Most unexpected was the tsunami of posts following the release of OotP. >>> What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Snape's vampire nature; Snape ? good or bad; various characters' love lives (especially Hermione, who still marries Harry after their divorces, btw); ... >>> Favourite post of your own to the group? Probably my one lamenting the naff prophecy (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82067 ) though I enjoyed my post on Neville's Mum's pubic hair (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/69520 ) and one counting names (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/81833 ), which won me entry to the League of Obsessive Nitpickers (LOON). >>> Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? I don't have a specific one bookmarked but any of Pippin's ESE!Lupin posts would do it for me (hopefully she'll pick her favourite when she responds to this quiz). She had the theory so comprehensively worked out and approached criticism with school-mistress-like knowledge, care, and authority. Wonderful. >>> If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Can I be your friend? >>> Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life meetings/friendships? Yes; many, too many to name names. I've been lucky to meet several of the prolific HPfGU posters. I think meeting them (at the two Accio conferences, on a few US business trips, and at a London meet-up) have been the brightest moments of my time on HPfGU. Having said there are too many to name I will just single out Catherine Coleman (catorman) as she's become a close family friend, to the extent that my father-in-law has been known to ask after her! She's also pregnant, which anyone who knew her from early list days will know has brought her great joy. Cheers, Dumbledad From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Sep 18 14:02:28 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:02:28 -0000 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zfshiruba" wrote: zfshiruba: > Do comprehensive schools wear uniforms then? Geoff: As I pointed out in post 187805, yes. The exception is that it is fairly common nowadays that members of the two Sixth Years dress casually (but tidily!). From joeydebs at yahoo.com Fri Sep 18 12:17:33 2009 From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Joey) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:17:33 -0000 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187829 > zfshiruba: > Do comprehensive schools wear uniforms then? Speaking of Dudley's uniform, I can understand the Dursleys' blindness but is everyone who goes to school with him blind too? Or does pride in tradition overrule basic embarrassment? Is tradition or going against tradition more common in the books? > Joeydebs: All schools wear uniforms in Britain - I've not encountered a school which does not yet. Personally, my school dress code was a white or navy shirt, black trousers or skirt and a navy jumper. The private schools did have quite old-fashioned uniforms but not quite *that* old-fashioned and yes, tradition is strong. I see it as being especially so in the white middle-class. There was a lot of anger in my area - very white, affluent - when they got rid of the middle schools and we still have our grammar schools partially because of the refusal to budge! In the books I see tradition is a very strong element - the whole wizarding world seems to be mired in it but how much of that is the magical world and how much of that is the British character which can be very stubbornly unchanging at times? From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 18 14:55:08 2009 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:55:08 -0000 Subject: Were the Weasleys (particularly Molly) in the 1st OOP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187830 Carol Wrote: I find it interesting that DD doesn't actually mention the Order. He only states that there's work to be done and asks if he can count on Molly and Arthur. Bill more or less recruits himself by offering to take the message to Arthur. Then he sends McGonagall on an Order-related errand (asking Hagrid and Madame Maxime to come to his office as soon as possible--more new recruits with a specific mission) and then sends Madam Pomfrey to look after Winky (it's not clear whether that's just her job or whether she's also a member of the Order). Only at that point does he ask Black to assume his usual form and shake hands with Snape and send them on their respective missions, Black's first. Molly, in short, is placed on the same level of trust as HRH. She must be the one who informs Arthur and Bill that both Snape and Black are helping DD, too. (Of course, she and Bill, along with McGonagall, have already witnessed Snape's revealing his Dark Mark to Fudge.) Janelle: I want to comment mostly on the part about Madam Pomfrey here. Dumbledore sends Bill and McGonagall on Order business without specifically saying that that is what he's doing, then he sends Madam Pomfrey to Winky. I always interpreted Dumbledore's sending her to Winky as a convenient way to get rid of her so that he could get down to Order business without her being involved or aware of what he was doing. The Order is supposed to be a secret organization, is it not? And obviously it is essential that Sirius and Snape's involvement in it be kept secret. I never really thought about how much trust Dumbledore is putting in Molly at that moment- allowing her to know these things at that moment- perhaps if it wasn't such a drastic situation he wouldn't have let her see quite so much. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 18 17:58:12 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:58:12 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187831 > Memo from HPFGU Hexquarters > Topic: Party on Main > > To Our Esteemed List Members: > > Some of you may have noticed the commotion happening here on the HPFGU Main List. Yes, it's highly unusual for the List Elves to promote wanton off-topic-ness here, but right now we're allowing it. In fact, we're going to ask you to please be off-topic until the end of the day Sunday. Carol responds: We is *supposed* to betray our master's secrets, erm, we're supposed to discuss *ourselves* on this list? (Furtively checks the calendar to make sure it's not April 1.) Who are you and what have you done with the real List Elves? Seriously, I'll take advantage of this unprecedented opportunity. It reminds me of a high school reunion with butterbeer. Elves: How long have you been a member of HPFGU? Carol: Since November 3, 2003. (Had to check the Members list to be sure.) In HP terms, about five and a half months after OoP came out in hardback. Elves: How did you find us? Carol: I did a Google search for something along the lines of "Harry Potter for Grownups." Or maybe it was a Yahoo groups search. At any rate, I was specifically looking for fellow adult HP fans in an online discussion group. (I was also looking for a civil atmosphere.) Elves: What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? Carol: Aside from the discovery of a group of literate adults eagerly discussing the HP books, sometimes from unusual perspectives, I was delighted to discover the existence of fellow Snape fans. Elves: What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Carol: Where Snape's loyalties lie, of course. Or Snape in general. :-) Elves: Favourite post of your own to the group? Carol: Probably my defense of Snape and analysis of his probable motives after HBP. I've lost my bookmarks for HNfGu posts, so I'm not sure that this is the one I had in mind, but it's close enough: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/149027 Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? Carol: As I said, I've lost the bookmarks for posts to this group, so I'll have to go back and look when I have more time. I always enjoy Pippin's posts even when I don't agree with them because of her unique perspective. Elves: If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Carol: "Can I interest you in a free set of annotated HP editions indicating all the Flints, inconsistencies, and unanswered questions in the series?" Seriously, I haven't actually annotated my books, but I wish I could tactfully let her know all the problems we've found in her nevertheless delightful books! Elves: Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life meetings/friendships? Carol: I correspond fairly regularly with certain listees whom I like very much and consider to be my friends, but I've never met anyone from the group. I don't attend conventions these days and I live in darkest Tucson, far from civilization. Okay, I'm exaggerating, but I doubt that many of my list friends are planning to come here in the near future. Carol, who had fun with these OT responses but had better get back to work From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Sep 18 20:48:12 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:48:12 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S_Ings" wrote: Elves: > How long have you been a member of HPFGU? Geoff: My first post was 73361 on 26/07/03 - seems a whole world away. Elves: > How did you find us? Geoff: By pottering around on Google (no pun intended). Elves: > What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? Geoff: Probably making new friends across the world. Alla and I often discuss the group and I actually met SSSusan and family here in the UK earlier this year. It was also fun (a new definition of the word?) to cross swords with folk such as Kneasy and Hans Andr?a over the years. Elves: > What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Geoff: Whether Harry would die in Book 7. Elves: > Favourite post of your own to the group? Geoff: One I worked on assiduously for ages - 85255 "The Whole Evans Theory" - discussing who Mark Evans was until JKR dropped her bombshell and revealed that he had nothing to do with the story. Elves: > Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life > meetings/friendships? Geoff: See above.... Elves: > Along the journey, we've also lost members. Please, take a moment to remember those no longer with us. Say a few words on their behalf. Geoff: Perhaps we should ask Professor Slughorn to say a prayer for them? :-| Elves: > This group has been many things to many people. A place to discuss, debate, argue, agree, celebrate and commiserate. Geoff: Long may it remain so. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Sep 19 18:58:47 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 18:58:47 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187833 Alika Elf: If we start giving them butterbeer and firewhiskey there's going to be trouble! Potioncat has stuffed the daytimer into her purse, and now has a tumbler of firewhiskey to go with the plate of food. Several clumps of elves strategically arranged around the room have their eyes on her. Phlytie Elf: How many has Potioncat had? Vexxy Elf: shh, she's talking. Potioncat: How long have you been a member of HPFGU? My first post was 5 1/2 years ago--and Carol was the first to reply. What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? I never expected it to be so much fun or to last so long. My youngest says the bunch of us should move on. But while HP is the topic, I think it's the sharing and discussion, the joking around that is the heart of HPfGU. Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? There are really too many to choose. But I would recommend this essay by Porphyria. It's actually an essay. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Essays/job.html The Conundrum of Justice and the Divine Adversary: Literary Parallels between Harry Potter and the Book of Job By Porphyria, 2002. There are two short threads based on it starting at 38508 and 123474. I haven't read it since the series concluded. I'll have to see if her ideas still apply. Phlytie Elf: Conundrum? Divine Adversay? Oh, boy, she knows how to make party conversation. Shorty Elf: Is anyone watching Potioncat? How many has she had? Potioncat If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? How did the whole thing evolve and what things changed as you wrote HP? Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life meetings/friendships? I have continuing on-line friends, but I haven't met anyone in real life--would love to. And as for the ones who have gone on, well, I could name quite a few Alika Elf: Oh no! She's getting maudlin! Exmoor Elf: Do you think she'll fit on Winky's little bed? She can't last much longer. Potioncat: Favourite post of your own to the group? My favorite post of my own is one I never submitted. Twisp Elf: That would be my favorite one too Zippy Elf: Shh, she'll hear you. Potioncat: Shortly before DH came out, I worked it out that Lily, Petunia and Severus knew each other before Hogwarts. I was sure it had to be true, but not confident enough to post it. With all the harebrained predictions I did post, why was this the only one I got right? But of the ones I did post, I'd say any that made people laugh would be my favorite. Here's one I found http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162651 Elves in unison: Oh no! She's singing! From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 19 19:53:23 2009 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:53:23 -0000 Subject: Petunia / Hermione and the Horcrux / Smeltings stick / Anniversary - Congra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187834 Geoff wrote in : << If, as you suggest, Petunia justifies her treatment by thinking that Harry's presence is a threat to the family, how does abusing him, starving him, neglecting him and demeaning him make him any less of a threat? >> As Zfshiruba mentioned in , people are not logical. However, her excuse for why Harry being a danger to her family causes her to abuse him is that what is a danger to her family is his magic ability and the abuse is attempting to beat the magic out of him. "Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that dangerous nonsense?" as Zgirnius quotes Vernon in her chapter summary for PS/SS Chapter Three in . Sandie spa76 asked in : << Are we supposed to think Hermione was so focused she just stabbed [the Horcrux] with a basilisk fang straightaway, before Riddle's soul could play any mindtricks on her? >> My assumption was always that it did play mind tricks on her which forced her to struggle, and were witnessed by Ron, but Ron was discreet enough not to tell Harry about this exposure of Hermione's secret feelings. On a meta-level, this immediately seemed unfair that Ron knows about Hermione's exteriorized inner struggle but Hermione doesn't know about Ron's. I feel it makes him subtlely a little bit one-up in their relationship. Although, now that I mention it, perhaps Rowling did that intentionally to make the relationship a bit more equal. My meta-meta-level assumption was equally immediate: as Hermione is Rowling's Mary Sue, Rowling was not about to show her inner struggle to the reading the public. {That Rowling could write books that came out this readable and memorable dislike containing Mary Sue shows how well she writes.} Pippin wrote in : << The "knobbly sticks, used for hitting each other when the teachers weren't looking" as "good training for later life" now remind me of Hogwarts students and their wands. >> The "good training for later life" reminded me of something I read, something autobiographical by C.S. Lewis about his pubic school, which advertised that the public school experience taught its students how to get on in "public life", and Lewis was sarcastic about how true that was, as the public school experience taught its students how to suck up to the powerful (popular students) and bully the weak (unpopular students), that the concubines (catamites) of the powerful are powerful themselves because of their influence on their partners, and a few other cynicisms. The List Elves wrote in : << Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? >> This mlist has been tremendously full of great posts, but I think the best must have been from Elkins. Maybe one examining legacies. Maybe the one exposing Barty Sr's total hypocrisy... I wish I could find one post that I vaguely remember from the hub-bub around DH and the arguments about Rowling's anti-Slytherin bias; it was a post which said that Harry admiring Snape for his immense courage was still anti-Slytherin because it judged Snape only according to Gryffindor standards, not according to what Snape himself had valued. I found a similar post by Lealess saying << To address this one point, bravery is one aspect of Snape's personality. It happens to be one we know Harry values. What else does Harry see about Snape that may be important to Snape but isn't important to Harry? What about his work, the destroyed potions book, the knowledge that went with him? What about the positions he held, the skills he showed in doing his jobs? Are these things recognized or praised? No... his courage, the Gryffindor trait, is praised. Do you think Harry really understands Snape, or understands what he wants to see?>> but the post of which I'm thinking was written in the first person, like "I want to be admired for my whatever, not for an unimportant thing like my courage". From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Sep 20 03:19:40 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 03:19:40 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187835 > How long have you been a member of HPFGU? Zara: I joined in July of 2005, in advance of the publication of HBP. I had decided it would be fun to read the book right when it came out and maybe find a place where I could share my initial impressions of the book and hear what other adults thought of the series. > How did you find us? Zara: Google! I Googled Harry Potter discussion, or something along those lines, and this place seemed best among the sites that popped up. > What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? Zara: What was most unexpected to me was that I stayed! I quite honestly figured I'd stick around for a few weeks after HBP came out and then wander off to find other ways to spend my time, at least until the next Potter came out. BOY was I wrong. Though I blame Rowling and HBP at least as much as I blame this place. > What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Zara: Do I really need to answer this? Well, I suppose if some of the old timers are reading this, I might need to...the incomparable Severus Snape, of course...Always! > Favourite post of your own to the group? Zara: I can't think of a single one. My first post-DH post, perhaps. Or one of my long ones on the way the events of HBP (later, DH) color the events of PoA in which Snape was involved. > Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? Zara: For sheer fun value, perhaps this one by Talisman, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/151314 a pre-DH post propounding the theory that the guiy we saw fall off the Astronomy Tower...was actually Snape. But really, there are too many great posters here for me to pick just one. I've enjoyed Sean's posts on education, Hermione, and Snape; Pippin's posts on any number of things, but most especially her post-DH take on the message of the books, Carol on literary analysis and (of course) Snape. And then there are the posters with whom I have enjoyed disagreeing, notably Alla on (again) Snape, though by thispoint she adnI coudl probably write each others responses to posts on that topic... > If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Zara: Hmm, that's a tough one. In a private conversation (like I would ever have one!), I would probably try to nail her down on what, exaclty, Albus had in mind when he said he meant Snape to have the Edler Wand. > Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life > meetings/friendships? Zara: Yes! I made a good friend on this list, and have travelled to see her. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 20 16:58:20 2009 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 20 Sep 2009 16:58:20 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/20/2009, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1253465900.8.7158.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187836 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday September 20, 2009 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sherriola at gmail.com Sun Sep 20 17:59:38 2009 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:59:38 -0600 Subject: are we really this old? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187837 Elves: How long have you been a member of HPFGU? Sherry: I joined soon after OOTP. I was devastated by that book and desperate to talk about it with others, particularly other adult fans. I had friends who had read the books too, but none were even a particle as obsessed as I! Elves > How did you find us? Sherry: I think I did a yahoo groups search. I had found one list, but it was mostly made up of kids, teenagers, some older members, but it was more the oh-my-gosh-can-you-believe-it sort of discussions. No real discussion of the book or theorizing. The thing that sent me looking was one person deliberately posting the words "Sirius dies!: in a subject line to the group so spoiling it for everyone else. That was within about a day of the book's release. I wanted something better. I did a yahoo groups search, using something like Harry Potter and adults in the search field and guess what I found! I've never left. Elves: > What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? Sherry: I think it's both best and unexpected, the quality of the discussions, the serious in-depth analysis of the canon, and eloquence of everyone as we fiercely defended and argued our ideas and hopes for the series. Elves: > What's been your favourite topic of discussion? sherry: Wow, that's a hard one. Perhaps, would Harry live in the end. Do I like that one because I was right? No, it was just a great topic. Also, anything defending the marauders. Of course there have been all the great Snape discussions, but not being a fan of Snape, though many members posts defending him were brilliant and fantastic reading, they were more stressful to read. Elves: > Favourite post of your own to the group? Sherry: I don't even remember any of my posts so I'm not sure. I can remember being terrified when posting my very first one, worried I say something dumb or get the posting rules all wrong! Now, here I am, helping others learn how to do it. Elves: > Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? Sherry: I don't know the post numbers, but a sampling would be pippin's ESE Lupin, the posts theorizing that it was really Snape who died in HBP, There was a very good Marauder post I can't remember or who wrote it. Generally, whether or not I agreed, I've always loved reading the well thought out theories with canon to back them up. Elves: > If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Sherry: I think a lot of Why's. Why this or that? One thing would be, why did she demolish Sirius' personality before killing him. Couldn't he have remained the person he was in GOF and still died in OOTP, if she had to have him die? That has always bothered me, because even the Sirius in GOF would not have stayed put while Harry was in danger, so I didn't understand why she had to try to discredit him and give him so many rotten moments in OOTP. Lots of why questions. Then lots of what next questions. Elves: > Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life sherry: Yes, Alla and I have become at least online friends, and I hope to meet her in person someday. Wow, isn't this a fantastic birthday party? Sherry From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Sep 20 21:20:12 2009 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:20:12 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187838 I wanted to wait until today to reply, because: > How long have you been a member of HPFGU? Annemehr: Exactly seven years today. I joined on September 20, 2002. > How did you find us? Annemehr: I belonged to a long-defunct site called The Readers Vine, in the Rowling section. Somebody posted about the difference between HarryPotterForGrownups and HPforGrownups, so of course I came to this one! > What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? Annemehr: The depth, variety, and quality of discussion. And I've never found anything like it, on any subject, anywhere else on the net. > What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Annemehr: Probably the thematic ones and the predictive ones pre-DH. And those two ideas, for me, are closely related because if you can guess what JKR is writing *for,* it might help you to predict what will happen next. But I also loved character discussions and the simple working-out of details such as the time people tried to pin down where Tom's orphanage was. *waves to Geoff and Sean* I especially loved the shear inventiveness and zaniness during the long wait for OoP. > Favourite post of your own to the group? Annemehr: That has to be the one, pre-HBP, where I theorized that one of the powers that LV accidentally passed to Harry was Possession: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/119783 > Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? Annemehr: Since no one's brought it up yet, I have to say the MAGIC DISHWASHER series! It all started with Pip!Squeak's post The Spying Game: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39698 > If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Annemehr: I used to think, lots. But now, I believe I'd just let the books speak for themselves. > Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life > meetings/friendships? Annemehr: At The Witching Hour I got to meet Alla and SSSusan and Constance Vigilance and also some people from The Leaky Cauldron. It's been an amazing ride so far. I've been around sporadically lately, but I keep telling myself I'm going to follow these new chapter discussions before you all get too far! Annemehr From distaiyi at yahoo.com Sun Sep 20 21:34:00 2009 From: distaiyi at yahoo.com (James) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:34:00 -0000 Subject: Are We Really This Old? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187839 > How long have you been a member of HPFGU? First post was post number :114292 On Sep 30, 2004 4:28 pm I believe I had been lurking before that. > How did you find us? As the owner of potterwatch.com for a long long time I'm always looking for other resources and came across the group when looking for something else. > What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? Having the elves appreciate my description of Snape in one of my posts: "Mongoose Patronus weilding traitor to the dark lord." > What's been your favorite topic of discussion? I like the deeper discussions not necessarily about the books, but about topics the books raise. But if forced to pick one I'd have to say the whole "Is Dumbledore REALLY dead" topic way back when. > If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? Hrm... Well if she were single, and I were single I think I'd ask her for a date. But given that's not likely to happen I think I'd like to ask her more about the future of our friends. I understand she has a lot of information about their futures tucked away and darn it I'd like to know more. > Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life > meetings/friendships? Yep. Distaiyi -- Wolfish Patronus wielding man of Dumbledore From s_ings at yahoo.com Mon Sep 21 04:09:20 2009 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Are We Really This Old? Message-ID: <977558.98662.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187840 I almost didn't get around to this before the end of the weekend! Cutting it close as it is. Damn this working weekends stuff. :) How long have you been a member of HPFGU? Since right before the release of GoF. How did you find us? Searching Yahoo, I think. This was back when this was a Yahoo!Club, which became an EGroup then the Yahoo!Group it is now. Very clunky things, Yahoo!Clubs. :) What was your best and/or most unexpected experience here? My best experiences in fandom have always been the people. I have to say I think this group is blessed with some pretty amazing people. What's been your favourite topic of discussion? Snape, Snape, Snape, Snape. Any surprise there? Favourite post of your own to the group? Goodness, I almost never post to the group. Hmm... go back a very long way in the archives and you might find the report I posted after JKR's reading at SkyDome in Toronto after the release of GoF. I believe it still holds the record as largest public reading ever. Favourite post of anyone else's to the group? Oh so many. Totally loved all the TBAY stuff, even if I never had the courage to dive into the discussion. If you were given the chance, what would you ask JKR? I'd probably be tongue-tied and not get anything out. Then again, those of you who know me in RL probably wouldn't believe I could ever be tongue-tied. :) Have any of your online friendships here gone on to real life meetings/friendships? Oh yes, indeed. Between the many conferences, meet-ups, and vacations I've met a fair number of HPFGU folks. Some have even braved the wilds of Canada to come here! Far to many to name all of those I've met. Way back in 2000 (was it really that long ago?), I braved the strangeness of Greyhound buses and took a trip to Texas to meet the Amandageist. Best thing I ever did, as we discovered that we're probably sisters separated at birth (though my mother denies this)! I've treasured every meeting I've had with fellow list members and hope to meet many more. Okay, it's really just past midnight here and I'm breaking the rules of ending the OT-ness on Sunday. Shall I blame it on over-consumption of butterbeer? Being blinded by the fireworks and being unable to see the clock? Shall I just iron my fingers now and be done with it? Sheryll Join me at Sirens this fall! http://www.sirensconference.org/ __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Sep 21 07:10:54 2009 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 07:10:54 -0000 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187841 --- "zfshiruba" wrote: > > ... > > zfshiruba: > It shows just how much of an American I can be sometimes that I really didn't pick up on the "stone wall" connotation until the prison comparison. > > In the States, or at least, my part of the States Stonewall High would just mean that its in the south and your school teams are probably the Generals. > > Do comprehensive schools wear uniforms then? Speaking of Dudley's uniform, I can understand the Dursleys' blindness but is everyone who goes to school with him blind too? Or does pride in tradition overrule basic embarrassment? Is tradition or going against tradition more common in the books? > bboyminn: Agreed in the southern USA a Stonewall High is likely name after a Confederate General. But in the San Fransisco or New York, it is far more likely to be a gay high school. And, yes, they really do have gay high schools. As to the odd uniform, you have to consider that there are a lot of schools in the UK, and each is determined to have its own UNIQUE uniform. Well the oldest and most prestigious schools got all the good uniform, and likely the newer less prominent schools were left to fight over the scraps. Once all the basic muted solid colors are used up, then you are left with stripes, then you are finally left with the brighter less dignified colors. I imagine a new school trying to conceive of a truly unique yet still conservative and dignified color scheme would have a very difficult time of it. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Sep 21 09:45:33 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:45:33 -0000 Subject: OT: Public Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" wrote: bboyminn: > Agreed in the southern USA a Stonewall High is likely name after a Confederate General. But in the San Fransisco or New York, it is far more likely to be a gay high school. And, yes, they really do have gay high schools. Geoff: Interestingly enough, my mind moved in this direction. We don't have gay high schools and I suspect that if 'our" school was, Vernon would have blown several fuses before allowing Harry there(!!). What did cross my mind was that Stonewall is the name of a leading UK gay support group. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 24 03:25:15 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:25:15 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187843 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). Many many thanks to Zara for her help. CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone Chapter Four, The Keeper of the Keys In this chapter a giant of a man comes to the Dursleys'. This man, whose name is Rubeus Hagrid, finally gives Harry the mysterious letter which was trying to get itself in Harry's hands in the previous chapter. Harry learns that he is a wizard and no, the Dursleys are not happy when he learns that. Hagrid also tells Harry what really happened to his parents. No, they did not die in a car crash, an evil wizard killed them when he tried to take over Wizarding World a decade ago. Hagrid also explains to Harry that he is famous because he is the only person so far who survived the attempt of this wizard to kill him. Hagrid tells him that wizard vanished and while some believe that he disappeared forever, he and those with him think that he will be back. Oh and Hagrid is not happy with Dursleys at all. 1. "Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get "em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. Is it a typo? Is it supposed to be **gatekeeper**? If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*? Thanks. 4. In this chapter Hagrid tells Harry "real" version of his parents' death and Harry's encounter with Voldemort. In light of DH we of course know that this version at best can be called incomplete. Do you think that this "reader's digest" version that Hagrid delivers is what the majority of WW population knew about that night? Do you think this version is delivered only for Harry's benefit and Hagrid (and maybe some other people, I am not talking here about Dumbledore) knew at least some more details? 5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter? 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? 7. Please feel free to add your own question. Alla NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 5, The Diagon Alley, on September 29, 2009. If you would like to volunteer to lead a PS/SS chapter discussion, please contact drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Sep 24 03:58:32 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:58:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187844 In a message dated 9/23/2009 10:26:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper*3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduc3. If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*If it is I don't think its a typo. Let me see if I can articulate sensibly. He is Keeper of the Keys (which in my mind equates to gatekeeper). But he is also Keeper of the Grounds. A groundskeeper maintains the property of an estate, university ect . .in this case because the Hogwarts grounds encompasses a sizable (forbidden) forest full of all kinds of animals he also cares for the game. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Sep 24 04:23:40 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:23:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187845 In a message dated 9/23/2009 10:26:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: . "Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get "em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? Oh I think that JKR knew. Just because it was a first book and she didn't know if it would sell doesn't mean that she wouldn't have been pre-plotting things 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? Just lucky I guess. 4. In this chapter Hagrid tells Harry "real" version of his parents' death and Harry's encounter with Voldemort. In light of DH we of course know that this version at best can be called incomplete. Do you think that this "reader's digest" version that Hagrid delivers is what the majority of WW population knew about that night? Do you think this version is delivered only for Harry's benefit and Hagrid (and maybe some other people, I am not talking here about Dumbledore) knew at least some more details? Oh its definitely the condensed version. And I'd wager that its what most of the WW believes. I'd bet only the surviving order members (and certain marauders) have slightly more of a clue. 5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter? Yes. Hagrid doesn't do disingenuous. 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? Nope. 7. Please feel free to add your own question. Thank you for the questions. I'll probably think of something after I've had time to reread this chapter. And probably think of more to add to my answers after I hit send. Alla [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Sep 24 06:32:10 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:32:10 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. Is it a typo? Is it supposed to be **gatekeeper**? > If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*? Thanks. Geoff: I think that both descriptions are admissible. As Melissa has pointed out, as the "Keeper of the Keys", Hagrid is certainly a gatekeeper. But I think that, as the books unfold, we see his work as being more to do with the grounds and the Hogwarts environment, their maintenance and his dealings with the flora and fauna. This, to me, puts his work more firmly in the direction of being a gamekeeper. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 24 07:37:18 2009 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:37:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187847 --- "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > This message is a Special Notice for all members of > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups > > ... > > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone > > Chapter Four, The Keeper of the Keys > > > In this chapter a giant of a man comes to the Dursleys'. This man, whose name is Rubeus Hagrid, finally gives Harry the mysterious letter which was trying to get itself in Harry's hands in the previous chapter. Harry learns that he is a wizard and no, the Dursleys are not happy when he learns that. Hagrid also tells Harry what really happened to his parents. No, they did not die in a car crash, an evil wizard killed them when he tried to take over Wizarding World a decade ago. Hagrid also explains to Harry that he is famous because he is the only person so far who survived the attempt of this wizard to kill him. Hagrid tells him that wizard vanished and while some believe that he disappeared forever, he and those with him think that he will be back. Oh and Hagrid is not happy with Dursleys at all. > > > 1. "Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get "em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? > bboyminn: I think we are making assumptions based on hearsay and generalizations. Voldemort many have generally considered trying to get James and Lily on his side, but we don't know that he literally did it. We don't know that he literally tried to recruit them, only that he would generally want to get as many people on his side as possible. If anything, someone other than Voldemort approached Lily and James and tried to sound them out; tried to get a sense of whether they would be receptive to being recruited. And, if that failed, where and how were they vulnerable so they could be coerced into supporting Voldemort. I think the result was that James and Lily we far to entrenched in Dumbledore's camp to even remotely consider changing sides, and I don't think there was really any front upon which they could be Blackmailed. James parents were dead, so that couldn't be a threat. All James friends including Lily were in the Order, and just being in the Order came with a risk of death, so that is a limited avenue of threat. > > > 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? > bboyminn: I think Harry was pretty downtrodden, and being so young his magic or magical abilities were latent. Once he goes to Hogwarts and starts to get some training, and grows up a bit, his magic becomes more active, and as such, he was able to blow up Aunt Marge without meaning to. So, while he did do inadvertent magic when he was younger, it was alway under somewhat strange circumstances. He flew to the top of a building, he turned his teacher hair blue (or whatever color). I don't think those things occurred because he was especially angry, more during circumstances when he had dropped his subconscious guard, and let the magic out. I think most of the time, Harry is being very deferential to the Dursleys. In his own mind, he was helpless and at their mercy. So, while I'm sure he gets angry at times, I think he is able to control or redirect that anger. > > 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. Is it a typo? Is it supposed to be **gatekeeper**? If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*? Thanks. > bboyminn: I remember having discussed this before. I'm sure Dumbledore made sure Hagrid had a nice fancy sounding title so he could feel important, though I don't doubt that Hagrid really does the jobs in his title. He is 'Keep of the Keys', but I suspect when they most need a Keeper of the Keys is when school is NOT in session. If you come to the closed school in the summer, and need to be let in to the castle or to a specific room, Hagrid would be the guy you needed to see, because he has the keys. As others have said, gamekeeping would be a subdivision of Groundskeeping. Plus, people don't always speak in absolutes. We all tend to generalize and summarize things. If we didn't, every single conversation would be interminably long. So, gamekeeper is just a quick and easy everyday way of describing Hagrid. It saves a lot of long pointless discussion and explanation. We need to try to not take everything as absolutely literal. > > 4. In this chapter Hagrid tells Harry "real" version of his parents' death and Harry's encounter with Voldemort. In light of DH we of course know that this version at best can be called incomplete. Do you think that this "reader's digest" version that Hagrid delivers is what the majority of WW population knew about that night? Do you think this version is delivered only for Harry's benefit and Hagrid (and maybe some other people, I am not talking here about Dumbledore) knew at least some more details? > bboyminn: If I recall correctly, Hagrid comments that he is not sure it is his place to inform Harry of what happened. So, yes, very much Harry got the condensed summarized version of events. But look at the broader series as a whole, when was Harry ever given all the information he needed? > > 5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter? > bboyminn: Oh I think the anger is very real. The whole purpose of that letter was to explain things, both to the Dursley's and to Harry. Notice, that even now after many years from leaving Hogwarts, Harry still hasn't seen that letter, or so we can reasonably assume. I think it was intensional on the part of the Dursely's as a way of keeping Harry ignorant of who and what he was. That was a part of all their lives, that the Dursley's very much wanted to deny. But, I don't think Hagrid believed anyone could act with such willful malice. I think he is truly stunned that the Dursley's didn't to Harry the common courtesy of explaining things to him. > 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? > bboyminn: I think JKR has answered this. You are not required to go to Hogwarts. I think parents and prospective students can refuse to go to Hogwarts, and once the school is clear that they are adamant on that decision, they respect and accept it. I suspect Muggle-borns might not accept on moral grounds. They would simply think it not right to be mixed up in such things. Though, most parents have probably experienced various forms of accidental magic and are glad to have an explanation, and an opportunity for the kids to learn to control it. Those from the Wizard world are free to not accept because there are other Wizard schools besides Hogwarts, and they might also want to home school their kids. The only exception to this is the brief time when the Death Eaters take over the Ministry and the School, then school at Hogwarts is mandatory. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From carylcb at hotmail.com Thu Sep 24 15:14:08 2009 From: carylcb at hotmail.com (Augusta) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:14:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > 1. "Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get "em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? Augusta: I think JKR had it all planned. As we learn later, Hagrid has a hard time keeping secrets. My guess is that Dumbledore told Hagrid only what he needed to know for whatever task he'd been assigned. I seriously doubt he knew everything. > > 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? Augusta: Harry has been fed a line of bull by the Dursley's -- his only family -- since he was a year old. At his age, he probably believed deep down that they really *were* being generous to take him in and feed him, even if it did qualify as child abuse. Note that all of the examples of accidental magic affected either Harry (launching him to safety, regrowing his hair), inanimate objects (the shrinking sweater), or people outside of the immediate family (Aunt Marge). On some level, he probably still harbored hope that they'd eventually love him and treat him well (a common belief for those who are mentally/emotionally abused) and unconsciously held his magic back from attacking them. > > 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. Is it a typo? Is it supposed to be **gatekeeper**? > If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*? Thanks. Augusta: I think others have answered this adequately. > 4. In this chapter Hagrid tells Harry "real" version of his parents' death and Harry's encounter with Voldemort. In light of DH we of course know that this version at best can be called incomplete. Do you think that this "reader's digest" version that Hagrid delivers is what the majority of WW population knew about that night? Do you think this version is delivered only for Harry's benefit and Hagrid (and maybe some other people, I am not talking here about Dumbledore) knew at least some more details? Augusta: See my response to question #1. > > 5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter? Augusta: Yes. > > 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? Augusta: Yes, but, if he had, I think Dumbledore would've come in person to try to change his mind. > > 7. Please feel free to add your own question. Augusta: The addresses on the letters kept changing with Harry's location, implying that "someone" was keeping tabs on the situation. Do you think Hagrid really got away with using magic, especially with giving Dudley his tail? From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 24 15:45:44 2009 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:45:44 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187849 CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone Chapter Four, The Keeper of the Keys 1. "Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? I have a couple comments on this one. First, did Voldemort try to recruit Lily and James? I don't remember hearing about that anywhere. Second, I think this *is* a case of Hagrid being misinformed. He doesn't know about the prophecy, he doesn't know that Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow in order to kill Harry. Without that knowledge, assuming that he was after Lily and James would be the logical explanation, especially for someone who seems to think that Lily and James were the best of people and wizards. 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? This is an interesting question, I hadn't really thought about it before, but I think the explanation is simple. Harry's magic acts up to protect him, not to harm others. Flying up to the roof, regrowing his hair: these were things that kept him from physical and emotional harm. Perhaps this demonstrates the nature of Harry's (good) character, perhaps others' (such as Tom Riddle) magic would act up to harm others. 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. Is it a typo? Is it supposed to be **gatekeeper**? If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*? Thanks. I think these are two separate titles that Hagrid holds, although they do tie together. Hagrid cares for the grounds of Hogwarts, including the animals(game). What always confused me was the "keys" part. We never really see him dealing with any keys (Filch has a big ring of them), so what is the basis for that title? 4. In this chapter Hagrid tells Harry "real" version of his parents' death and Harry's encounter with Voldemort. In light of DH we of course know that this version at best can be called incomplete. Do you think that this "reader's digest" version that Hagrid delivers is what the majority of WW population knew about that night? Do you think this version is delivered only for Harry's benefit and Hagrid (and maybe some other people, I am not talking here about Dumbledore) knew at least some more details? Looking back at what Hagrid said, I would actually say that it's a pretty accurate description of what happened. I remember reading the scene in DH and being slightly disappointed that nothing really happened we didn't already know about (i.e., it was, in fact, James' voice...). The only thing that Hagrid gets wrong is why Voldemort was there in the first place. Hagrid admits that he doesn't know, and suggests that Voldemort probably either wanted to recruit Lily and James or get them out of the way. My guess is that this is the extent of the knowledge of the rest of the wizarding world. I might even venture to say that Hagrid is probably the reason that they know even this much (he does tend to talk...). Dumbledore and Snape, of course, knew the truth. 5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter? I do believe Hagrid. I think that he honestly didn't know that Harry didn't know anything about Hogwarts or the Wizarding World. It makes me wonder what the conversation between Hagrid and Dumbledore, when Dumbledore sent him on this mission, was like. Did Dumbledore know that Harry didn't know? Probably not. Also, Hagrid seems to know what was in that letter Dumbledore left- or at least he assumes that he knows what was in it. What did Dumbledore tell him about it, if anything? What was in that letter?! 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? I think that if he had decided to say no, Hagrid would first have tried to talk him into it, and if that didn't work, I think Dumbledore himself would have intervened to make sure that Harry attended Hogwarts. My Questions: 7. When Vernon is telling Hagrid that Harry's not going to Hogwarts, it's not until Hagrid mentions Dumbledore that he really explodes and starts YELLING. What does Vernon know about Dumbledore? 8. Hagrid asks Harry not to mention the magic that he did at Hogwarts. Why isn't Harry at all suspicious of Hagrid? Why is he so quick to trust someone he just met who's already asking him to keep secrets? Thanks for the questions- this is fun! Janelle From Alorkin at msn.com Thu Sep 24 17:43:43 2009 From: Alorkin at msn.com (Alorkin) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:43:43 -0000 Subject: A response to 'the keeper of keys' PS/SS Ch 4. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187850 Questions: 1. "Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get "em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? It could go either way, actually. Supposition seems to be a large part of the WW's form of `intelligence gathering'. 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? IMO, Dumbledore bound Harry's power during that missing day. Another possibility is that Harry has grown up fearing his uncle's wrath, and knowing that his uncle will gladly harm him, either on his own, or at his aunt's behest. Had Harry actually harmed one of the Dursleys, Vernon would have beaten him nearly to death, if not killed him outright. 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. Is it a typo? Is it supposed to be **gatekeeper**? If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*? Thanks. The keeper of keys and grounds(Seneschal) is responsible for the security of the house (castle), proper stocking of consumables, and proper maintenance of the building itself. Any gatekeeper would answer to him. He also maintains the grounds, around the place, and part of that duty would be gamekeeper, as the animals living on Hogwarts grounds need care too, so he actually has several vital jobs at Hoggy's. When Hagrid was expelled, he was 13. Dumbledore may have given him the job of gamekeeper (or more likely `assistant' gamekeeper) as a beginning assignment. As a result, Hagrid is absolutely devoted to Dumbledore. (See: Stockholm syndrome. Although not precisely the same thing, it is a close parallel.) Remember, before year three, Professor Kettleburn was the CoMC teacher. It's entirely possible that there have been other people in charge of various areas I and around the castle. 4. In this chapter Hagrid tells Harry "real" version of his parents' death and Harry's encounter with Voldemort. In light of DH we of course know that this version at best can be called incomplete. Do you think that this "reader's digest" version that Hagrid delivers is what the majority of WW population knew about that night? Do you think this version is delivered only for Harry's benefit and Hagrid (and maybe some other people, I am not talking here about Dumbledore) knew at least some more details? Hagrid knows only what Dumbledore tells him. And Dumbledore plays very close to the vest. He delights in knowing everything, and demands full disclosure from his minions, but only tells others what he wants them to know. The myth surrounding Harry is `well known', but who told them in the first place? What idiot came up with the name `The Boy Who lived'? Harry is the only survivor of that night, and nobody ever asked him a thing. I would surmise that Dumbledore spread the rumour as to how Harry survived, in order to prepare the sheeple for when it came time for Harry to return from exile. Tactically, his thinking is sound. If only *his* version of events is disseminated, people will believe that Harry is a demigod, which not only places Harry on the pedestal, but Dumbledore as well. Look at Ginny. She's grown up with the Harry potter myth. As a result, she became a rabid fan-girl. 5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter? Actually, yes. Hagrid is angry that they never told Harry, not that he was in Durzkaban in the first place. He grew up in the wizarding world, and so, likely cannot understand why anyone would want to keep Harry from it. 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? Although there are some very good fanfics on that theme, I do not believe Dumbledore would allow Harry to decline. He has already set events into motion to lure Voldemort to Hogwarts. (The stone has been kept safe for over six hundred years. Why would it suddenly be in danger just when Harry was scheduled to come to Hoggy's? Co-inky-dink? I think not.) If Harry refuses to attend, his `grand plan', would be scuttled. 7. Please feel free to add your own question. Why was Hagrid sent to collect Harry, instead of someone who actually knew what they were doing? Aren't there contact specialists? Hermione said Professor McGonagall came to her house personally. Alorkin From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 24 22:38:16 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:38:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187851 > > 1. "Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get "em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? Pippin: I think it's definite that Hagrid was not well-informed, since Snape was not informed either. We'd have a different story if Snape brought the prophecy to Voldemort knowing that "those who have thrice defied him" would include Lily and James. I suspect that few people even within the Order knew that James and Lily had been approached until they'd been murdered. Voldemort did not, as Sirius put it in OOP, bang on people's doors and order them to join the Death Eaters. He used trickery, blackmail and enchantments, all of which imply stealth. As long as the targets kept their silence, Voldemort could take his time killing off those who refused him and still keep his reputation for killing anyone who defied him intact. Of course if you made your defiance public, you'd be dead, probably within days. > 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? Pippin: Harry turned his teacher's wig blue, so it's not that his magic didn't work against people. But the magic probably knows that Lily's blood protects Harry and won't work against it. That leaves only Vernon, who, despite his size and bluster, doesn't frighten Harry much. Harry steps on Vernon, beats him with the smelting stick and talks back to him without fear. > > > 4. In this chapter Hagrid tells Harry "real" version of his parents' death and Harry's encounter with Voldemort. In light of DH we of course know that this version at best can be called incomplete. Do you think that this "reader's digest" version that Hagrid delivers is what the majority of WW population knew about that night? Pippin: It would have to be, or Harry would soon find out differently. Hermione has read all about him in books. Alla: Do you think this version is delivered only for Harry's benefit and Hagrid (and maybe some other people, I am not talking here about Dumbledore) knew at least some more details? Pippin: It's fascinating to read Chapter One of PS/SS beside "The Prince's Tale" and see just how little Dumbledore was willing to let McGonagall know. But I'm planning a separate post about that. > 5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter? Pippin: Hagrid's no actor. > > 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? Pippin: He had the right to do so, certainly. In the second book, Dobby will try to convince him to exercise it. (Another reason to believe there is blood protection. Dobby does not just want Harry to avoid Hogwarts, he wants him specifically to remain at Privet Drive.) Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 24 23:10:26 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:10:26 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187853 1."Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? Janelle: I have a couple comments on this one. First, did Voldemort try to recruit Lily and James? I don't remember hearing about that anywhere. Alla: She said it in the interview, but I cannot find the link, I am pretty positive though. I can accept this being a case of Hagrid misinformed, but I can also accept a second possibility, especially since she said it in the interviews. IMO of course. 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? Janelle: This is an interesting question, I hadn't really thought about it before, but I think the explanation is simple. Harry's magic acts up to protect him, not to harm others. Flying up to the roof, regrowing his hair: these were things that kept him from physical and emotional harm. Perhaps this demonstrates the nature of Harry's (good) character, perhaps others' (such as Tom Riddle) magic would act up to harm others. Alla: I really really like your explanation. I am not sure that JKR thought about it, although I hope she did. I mean, to me Dursleys harmed Harry more than once and IMO if his magic was to act up, that would be first and foremost for his protection. When few years ago we could still madly speculate about the ending, one of the theories was that Harry dreamt up WW and all his adventures and that the ending will be that he either wake up in his cupboard (so sad) or wake up in his bed, and his parents alive etc, less sad but still annoying to me. I hated this theory, thought it will be an awful cheat and was glad that it did not happen. However, now when I think about it the fact that Harry's magic did not act up when he was hurt the most while it did act up when he was stressed less (he certainly was not happy about his hair) could have been why I was nervous that it will come true. That this is a dream and nothing bad can happen to Harry's abusers simply because he cannot really do it. I mean, why had he endured Harry's hunting? Why his magic did not apparate him away from Dudley and Co? I suspect this was all for the plot, to make sure Harry will suffer, but I do not find it awfully consistent. IMO of course. 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. Is it a typo? Is it supposed to be **gatekeeper**? > If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*? Thanks. Geoff: I think that both descriptions are admissible. As Melissa has pointed out, as the "Keeper of the Keys", Hagrid is certainly a gatekeeper. But I think that, as the books unfold, we see his work as being more to do with the grounds and the Hogwarts environment, their maintenance and his dealings with the flora and fauna. This, to me, puts his work more firmly in the direction of being a gamekeeper. Alla: Thanks Geoff and to everybody else, who explained. My confusion stemmed from the fact that I did not know that Keeper of the Grounds means Gamekeeper, if that makes sense. I guess I did not know the origins of the word Gamekeeper in this context. To me Gamekeeper is somebody who keeps real games LOL. I definitely learned something new today! 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? bboyminn: I think JKR has answered this. You are not required to go to Hogwarts. I think parents and prospective students can refuse to go to Hogwarts, and once the school is clear that they are adamant on that decision, they respect and accept it. Alla: Right, I was not talking about Harry having a legal or customary or whatever right to decline attending. I know he had this right. My question was more along the lines whether Dumbledore would allow him to do so and my answer is resounding No, no way, no how Dumbledore would let Harry slip out of his steel grasp. I think Dumbledore made absolute sure that declining would not ever enter Harry's mind. I think he made sure that for poor Harry wizarding world would be a bright place where he would want to go. And who would not if Dursleys would be other choice? And who would not if this adorable Hagrid would be the one to greet Harry and show him kindness? Harry who per JKR's admission craved father's figure was IMO bound to go where Hagrid will take him. I say Bravo Dumbledore, really. I think it was a very nice set up to catch Harry and he swallowed it of course, why would he not. Alorkin: Although there are some very good fanfics on that theme, I do not believe Dumbledore would allow Harry to decline. He has already set events into motion to lure Voldemort to Hogwarts. (The stone has been kept safe for over six hundred years. Why would it suddenly be in danger just when Harry was scheduled to come to Hoggy's? Co-inky-dink? I think not.) If Harry refuses to attend, his `grand plan', would be scuttled. Alla: I agree completely. Alorkin: Why was Hagrid sent to collect Harry, instead of someone who actually knew what they were doing? Aren't there contact specialists? Hermione said Professor McGonagall came to her house personally. Alla: I attempted to answer, I think Dumbledore wanted to send someone Harry will love right away and will follow anywhere no matter what. Hm, Dumbledore finally deciding that Harry needs a male father-figure/ friend. I think as long as this friend worships Dumbledore it will do. Yeah, I know I am talking about Dumbledore again, lol. Janelle: Hagrid asks Harry not to mention the magic that he did at Hogwarts. Why isn't Harry at all suspicious of Hagrid? Why is he so quick to trust someone he just met who's already asking him to keep secrets? Alla: IMO simply because Harry would not bother being suspicious, I think he would have loved anybody who showed him some love and did some Dursleys' putting in their place. I am not sure if what Hagrid told him truly registered with him. JMO, Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Sep 25 13:29:45 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:29:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187854 Potioncat: Thanks, Alla, for some great questions! I've slipped in a few bits from other posts on this thread. > > Alla: 1. "Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get "em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? Potioncat: Hagrid isn't sure if LV intended to recruit the Potters, or went to kill them. IIRC, Lupin will tell a slightly different version. Given that DD never explains anything, I'd say this is the version as Hagrid understands it. What comes to my mind though, is whether Hagrid knew that Lily and James were in hiding at the time? If he did, what did he think was the reason? Or, is he just leaving that part out? Alla: > She said it in the interview, but I cannot find the link, I am pretty positive though. I can accept this being a case of Hagrid misinformed, but I can also accept a second possibility, especially since she said it in the interviews. IMO of course. Potioncat: I recall a recruiting effort too, but I thought it was in canon. I'd like to add, that while JKR had her story planned out, surely there were some details that altered over the course or some bits that sprung up by surprise. Is that what you were getting at, Alla? >Alla: 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? >Alla (from a different post) (snipped) > I am not sure that JKR thought about it, although I hope she did. I mean, to me Dursleys harmed Harry more than once and IMO if his magic was to act up, that would be first and foremost for his protection. I suspect this was all for the plot, to make sure Harry will suffer, but I do not find it awfully consistent. IMO of course. Potioncat: Do we know that accidental magic takes a dangerous turn? The incident with DD's sister seems to have been unusual. All of Harry's accidental magic has been defensive, except for blowing up Aunt Marge. Even that didn't "harm" her--and wasn't "blowing up" in the way we generally use the word "blowing up." However, the type of accidental magic could depend on the type of person. Harry's not the sort to harm someone, unless you count the surprising result of the Cutting Curse in HBP. Perhaps Bellatrix's childhood accidental magic would have looked very different? Crouch!Moody said the DADA class wouldn't even be able to cause a nosebleed with the AK Curse. If the magic of somewhat trained wizards is limited, I would think the accidental magic would be too. So, again, I don't think it would be the norm that accidental magic would cause harm. Having said that, I think the WW thought that Harry's accidental magic did in LV. > Alla: > 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. Is it a typo? Is it supposed to be **gatekeeper**? If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*? Thanks. Potioncat: Well, now that you mention it, groundskeeper and gamekeeper aren't generally the same thing. Can you imagine Hagrid planting flowers and decorative shrubs around the castle? Yet, I don't think it was a typo. I agree with an earlier post that this was a fancy title for Hagrid that sort of reflected his role on the grounds of Hogwarts. Just to make sure we're on the same wavelength, gamekeeper has to do with taking care of or managing animals. I think of it in terms of those animals on the estate that the lord of the manor would hunt. On the same token, it's Hagrid who provides the huge Christmas trees, so while he may not plant nice little flowerbeds, he must keep an eye on the woodland of the castle grounds. Oh, and he keeps the garden. >Alla: 4. In this chapter Hagrid tells Harry "real" version of his parents' death and Harry's encounter with Voldemort. In light of DH we of course know that this version at best can be called incomplete. Do you think that this "reader's digest" version that Hagrid delivers is what the majority of WW population knew about that night? Do you think this version is delivered only for Harry's benefit and Hagrid (and maybe some other people, I am not talking here about Dumbledore) knew at least some more details? Potioncat: Certainly the general WW does not know the whole story. Come to think of it, I don't think anyone else does either. I don't remember if DD told Snape that Lily actually sacrificed herself (as opposed to died defending Harry) So I think Hagrid is explaining the events as he understands them. Most of the WW believes that something special about Harry stopped DD. Some think Harry is or will be a Dark Wizard. >Alla: 5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter? Potioncat: Yes. The Dursleys have kept something important and special from him. Hagrid acts as if he knows what was in the letter. I think he's assuming. No one knows what DD actually told the Dursleys. >Alla: 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? > Alla from a later post: > My question was more along the lines whether Dumbledore would allow him to do so > and my answer is resounding No, no way, no how Dumbledore would let Harry slip out >of his steel grasp. Potioncat: Would DD have manipulated Harry into enrolling? Well, we'll never know. JKR wrote the story with the intent that Harry would be attracted to the magical world. I'm not sure if it's canon, or movie-contamination, but doesn't Harry say on several occasions, "I love magic."? I don't think JKR (or DD) ever considered that Harry might refuse. I can see DD allowing Harry to refuse and keeping watch on the situation. > Alorkin: > Why was Hagrid sent to collect Harry, instead of someone who actually knew what they were doing? Aren't there contact specialists? Hermione said Professor McGonagall came to her house personally. Potioncat: Is it canon that McGonagall visited Hermione? I don't remember it, do you know where that can be found? I think JKR said in an interview that a representative would go to a Muggle home to explain about magic and Hogwarts. I don't know why DD sent Hagrid, probably for the same reason he sent him to retrieve Baby Harry. But I'm with McGonagall, "Hagrid! Do you think that's wise?" We get a nice progression as the story unfolds. Hagrid carries Baby Harry from the ruins of the house to the Dursleys'. Hagrid takes Harry from the rock to the WW. Hagrid carries Harry from the Dursleys during the 7 Potters. Hagrid carries Harry's "body" to the castle. He also carries DD's remains to the mausoleum. > Janelle: > Hagrid asks Harry not to mention the magic that he did at Hogwarts. Why isn't Harry at all suspicious of Hagrid? Why is he so quick to trust someone he just met who's already asking him to keep secrets? Potioncat: Oh boy, doesn't that go against everything we teach our kids? "Don't trust someone who asks you not to tell." Again with the secrets in the series! But, you know--if I were Harry and I had suffered through 10 years of Dursleys and someone showed up and gave Dudley a pig-tail .I'd be happy to keep the secret. Here's a question. Is there anyone in the HP series who does not keep secrets, or deal with secret keeping on some level? Thanks again, Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Sep 25 14:13:43 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:13:43 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187855 Potioncat: Thanks again Alla, for some great questions. This is my first re-read of the series since well before DH came out. So it's fun to read the books after a span of time and with knowing how it all turns out. I just have a few observations rather than questions. This had me laughing out loud, and not for JKR's intended reason. It's the first 2 lines of the chapter. ** Boom! They knocked again. Dudley jerked awake. "Where's the cannon?" he said stupidly. ** Ha! Who would have thought Dudley was a list-member! --(I have an idea or two about his member-name.) (Sorry, I'm still recuperating from the fire-whiskey at the party.) A few pages later, Hagrid has just learned that Harry was never told about his heritage, and at that moment Vernon channels DD. **"Stop!" he commanded. "Stop right there, sir! I forbid you to tell the boy anything!" ** This scene reminded me so much of the events at 12 GP Place with DD determined to keep information from Harry. Hermione apologized for not writing more but said DD wouldn't let them tell Harry anything. When Sirius wanted to explain things to Harry, Molly did her best to enforce DD's orders. Not a foreshadowing exactly, but I guess a recurring theme. And now, the often-debated incident of the pig's tail. **"Shouldn'ta lost me temper," he said ruefully, "but it didn't work anyway. Meant ter turn him into a pig, but I suppose he was so much like a pig anyway there wasn't much left ter do."** As I read this section this time, several different thoughts came into my head. The first has to do with the retribution issue. We've debated before why a good guy would punish a child for his father's actions. I don't know that we have an answer, but there is a basis for it. Fairy-tales are full of witches turning people into things. There is also a basis for evil wizards/witches harming children to get back at the parent. So I wonder now if that was what JKR had in mind. McGonagall says "We don't use transfiguration as punishment at Hogwarts." But we know now that other parts of the WW do. There's a Wizard Card for a wizard who turned his 7 sons into porcupines. Crouch! Moody turned Draco into a ferret. We'll see at least 2 examples of children being punished because of their parents, but it will be Dark Wizards doing it. (OK, 3 if you count Snape/Harry) The next thought had to do with the magic itself. Transfiguring a boy into a pig would be a difficult bit of work for someone who never finished 3rd year and has a broken wand. Hagrid doesn't really do so bad, does he?---at the magic, I mean. And last, Harry asks a question. "Why aren't you supposed to do magic?" followed by "Why were you expelled?" Two biggies that of course don't get fully answered. The final paragraphs smoothly moved on as if we had simply learned a tiny bit about Hagrid. Isn't it fun how JKR slipped in little things like this? From sherriola at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 16:36:13 2009 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:36:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B4687B53CE0433FB17987810CDE8420@Pensieve> No: HPFGUIDX 187856 Alorkin: > Why was Hagrid sent to collect Harry, instead of someone who actually knew what they were doing? Aren't there contact specialists? Hermione said Professor McGonagall came to her house personally. Potioncat: I don't know why DD sent Hagrid, probably for the same reason he sent him to retrieve Baby Harry. But I'm with McGonagall, "Hagrid! Do you think that's wise?" Sherry now: I've been thinking a lot about this, and even more with your excellent summation of all the times Hagrid takes or carries Harry somewhere. I think Hagrid was the perfect choice, and here's why. Hagrid with all his other faults is absolutely loyal, loyal to DD in the beginning but also loyal to Harry. I think that, like Sirius later, Hagrid would die to protect those he loves. Hagrid also has a child-like nature, simple and guileless. I think this would be easier for a boy with Harry's history to accept, easier than a stern Minerva, for instance. In spite of his size, he can make Harry feel safe and relaxed. He can share the wonder of the new world to which he is introducing Harry. He lets Harry express himself and his insecurities in ways I don't think Harry could have done to someone more typically adult behaving. In fact, does Harry ever open up to any other adult as he does to Hagrid, except maybe Sirius occasionally? Hagrid tells Harry things about his parents, that to me, are things an 11-year-old boy, starved for information would want and need to hear. It wasn't the time for Harry to hear the negatives about his parents. For me, Hagrid, with his simple but honest and kind ways, was the absolute right person to get Harry and introduce him to his new life. It's hard for me to explain any better than I have. I feel what I mean but can't find the words. I just think any other Hogwarts person would have been too formal and adult acting for Harry to be free to react. Hagrid was Harry's first friend, and they remain friends and loyal to each other from then on. Sherry From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Sep 26 06:21:48 2009 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 06:21:48 -0000 Subject: A response to 'the keeper of keys' PS/SS Ch 4. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187857 --- "Alorkin" wrote: ... > > 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? > > Although there are some very good fanfics on that theme, I do not believe Dumbledore would allow Harry to decline. He has already set events into motion to lure Voldemort to Hogwarts. (The stone has been kept safe for over six hundred years. Why would it suddenly be in danger just when Harry was scheduled to come to Hoggy's? Co-inky-dink? I think not.) If Harry refuses to attend, his `grand plan', would be scuttled. > > > 7. Please feel free to add your own question. > > Why was Hagrid sent to collect Harry, instead of someone who actually knew what they were doing? Aren't there contact specialists? Hermione said Professor McGonagall came to her house personally. > > > Alorkin > bboyminn: Hope you don't mind if I comment on some of your comments. As to number 6; I never thought of it from that perspective. I assumed the question was, are Harry and other people allowed to refuse the invitation in general. I thought of it from the perspective, is it allowed. But, you bring up a Huge point, what if Harry had declined, what would happen to Dumbledore's plan? What would Dumbledore do? Very interesting and insightful point. I'm not sure I really know the answer, and I'm usually pretty good at making this stuff up. I think I do agree that Dumbledore and others would go to great length to convince Harry that Hogwarts was the best choice. But, I'm really not sure how far they would be prepared to take it. Would Dumbledore go so far as to kidnap Harry? Again, a very interesting point. As to why Hagrid was chosen to bring Harry his letter, I think this one is easier. Hagrid knew Harry's parents, and Hagrid has a very special connection to Harry, being that he guarded Harry during the magical mysterious missing 24 hours, then delivered Harry to Dumbledore at the Dursleys. I think there were a limited number of people who knew the details of where Harry was and what he was doing there. Notice that most of Harry's brief encounters with magical people occur outside Privet Drive. So, since Hagrid has a directly involved part from the very beginning, I think he was the logical choice to come and get Harry. Plus, I think Dumbledore would have thought it was a great laugh to send a giant to fetch Harry. Anyway, excellent thought on the scenario of Harry refusing his invitation to Hogwarts and Dumbledore potential reaction. What if the Dursley's were religious nut who had endoctrinated Harry, and he refused on religious ground? A very interesting alternate universe. Steve/bboyminn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 26 19:17:17 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 19:17:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187858 Carol: I've read everyone's responses this time and will try not to duplicate. I won't however, be able to remember who said what! > 1. "Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get "em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with dark side" -p.55. Is this quote a case of Hagrid not being well informed or a case of JKR have not deciding that Voldemort tried to recruit Lily and James just yet? Carol responds: Regardless of what JKR said off the top of her head in an interview, I can't imagine Voldemort or the DEs in general attempting to recruit Lily. Not only is she Muggle-born, she's adamantly opposed to Dark magic and DEs. Look at Voldemort's dismissive treatment of her, calling her "silly girl" even as he's attempting to keep his promise to Snape to spare her life. (Later, after she's dead, he disparagingly refers to her as "[Harry's] Muggle mother" and equates her with his own Muggle father. Hagrid doesn't know that Voldemort targeted the Potters because of Harry (and he certainly doesn't know that Lily didn't have to die); he thinks that he killed them for opposing him--"*probably* never tried to recruit them before"? Voldie wasn't recruiting them at all; he was conveniently killing off blood-traitor Order member James and offering the "silly girl" a chance to live in exchange for her son. "*Probably* knew they didn't want anything ter do with the Dark side." Probably? he knew, thanks to Wormtail, that they were both members of the Order. (Merely joining the Order may constitute defying him once.) Hagrid, never the best-informed character in the series, is speculating, giving reasons for the attack on the Potters that make sense to him, but "probably" clearly indicates that he doesn't know the real reasons (as the reader finds out in more detail later). Misinformation yet again, but this time from a character who's neither lying nor spreading deliberate half truths and cover stories. > > 2. As the way to convince Harry that he is truly a wizard, Hagrid reminds him about the things that had been happening around him when he is angry or upset. We know that what Dursleys did upset Harry a great deal. Why haven't his accidental magic kicked in and harmed the Dursleys at least a little bit? Carol responds: I have a theory or hypothesis that I'm sure someone else will find a hole in. It seems to me that anger is not Harry's natural response to danger; instead, his accidental magic pre-Hogwarts seems mostly defensive or only mildly retaliatory (the teacher's blue hair). Contrast his fierce anger in PoA, where the accidental magic reflects real fury. Maybe--only maybe--the soul bit in the scar is at work here. Before SS/PS, LV is possessing animals in Albania, barely alive. He does not possess Quirrell until after Harry meets Quirrell in the Leaky Cauldron, right before Quirrell tries and fails to steal the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone. (We see Harry feeling pain in his scar when Quirrell!mort looks at him at the opening banquet; maybe the soul bit wakes up at that point and becomes stronger along with LV, causing Harry to feel angrier and angrier (wanting to kill Sirius Black in PoA; angry with himself and everyone else all through OoP). To return to the question--why hasn't Harry's accidental magic harmed the Dursleys pre-OoP? Because the soul bit hasn't stirred up the anger in him yet, and he's merely instinctively preserving himself from harm. (Of course, feeling small and helpless and not knowing that he's a wizard may have something to do with it. He's not Tom Riddle, instinctively noticing his own powers, sensing that he's "special," and consciously developing them to hurt and control others.) > > 3. In the beginning of this chapter Hagrid introduces himself as Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. At the end of the chapter he tells Harry that Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. Is it a typo? Is it supposed to be **gatekeeper**? > If it is not a typo, could somebody explain to me how *keeper of the keys and grounds* is the same thing as *gamekeeper*? Thanks. Carol: I agree with others that it's not a typo. As "keeper of the keys and grounds" he would be the gatekeeper (though that word may reflect Harry's perception of Hagrid's job rather than the job itself). "Keeper of the keys" is nicely alliterative, but (IIRC) the only key Hagrid has in his possession is the key to Harry's vault entrusted to him by Dumbledore (best not to ask how it came into DD's possession). JKR, let's face it, has a creative mind, not a logical or organized mind. She can't even remember when Hagrid became gamekeeper (Ogg, the gamekeeper before Hagrid, anyone?), so I'm not surprised that she refers to his job title inconsistently. Isn't Filch sometimes referred to as the caretaker and sometimes as the groundskeeper? At any rate, it's possible that JKR's conception of Hagrid's job changed as she wrote the books and he shifted from groundskeeper to gamekeeper at about the same time that he became the new CoMC teacher. (Possibly, Professor Kettleburn was the previous gamekeeper, losing limbs in the process. Hagrid would have been the self-appointed keeper of the Acromantulas and possibly of the Thestrals before that. > > 4. In this chapter Hagrid tells Harry "real" version of his parents' death and Harry's encounter with Voldemort. In light of DH we of course know that this version at best can be called incomplete. Do you think that this "reader's digest" version that Hagrid delivers is what the majority of WW population knew about that night? Do you think this version is delivered only for Harry's benefit and Hagrid (and maybe some other people, I am not talking here about Dumbledore) knew at least some more details? Carol: I think it's a combination of what the WW "knew" and Hagrid's own speculations. (See above.) However, as someone else mentioned, the knowledge that LV had been defeated by a little boy, which the WW was already celebrating as McGonagall waited in cat form on the wall, had to come from somewhere, and I doubt that Hagrid provided it to the WW. It must have been DD's official version, passed on to the MoM and the Daily Prophet during the Missing Twenty-Four Hours. Hagrid would know only that LV had tried to kill the Potters, tried and failed to kill Harry, blown up part of the house, and left Harry with an open cut shaped like a lightning bolt. Anything else that he "knew" either came from the Daily Prophet or rumor or his own (inaccurate) speculations. > > 5. Do you believe Hagrid when he acts angry about Dursleys not telling Harry what was in that letter? Carol: As others have said, Hagrid is not an actor. He reacts emotionally and viscerally, not intellectually, and when he attempts to lie or hide information, he gives himself away by looking shifty and guilty. So his anger that the Dursleys would conceal what Hagrid considers to be common knowledge (that Harry is a wizard and entitled to go to Hogwarts), along with the truth about his parents' death, makes him genuinely angry, just as he's genuinely angry when Vernon insults Dumbledore. > > 6. Harry's invitation letter says that Hogwarts expects his owl no later than July 31. Do you think it was possible for Harry to refuse the invitation if he so desired? > Carol: Under normal circumstances, I think that Harry would have had the choice not to attend (not that he would have made that decision). But there's no question that DD wants Harry at Hogwarts and has taken extraordinary measures to make sure that he receives his letter. It's possible (no way of proving it) that one of DD's (minor) motives in placing Harry with the Dursleys in ignorance of his history and magical abilities was to make him want to enter the exciting magical world of the WW. At any rate, sending a "giant" with a magical umbrella to recruit an eleven-year-old boy whose life up to that point had been worse than mundane could not fail to spark his interest, especially if he was anything like his adventure-loving father. Carol, thanking Alla for the interesting questions From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Sep 26 19:39:33 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:39:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187859 In a message dated 9/26/2009 2:18:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: Carol responds: Before SS/PS, LV is possessing animals in Albania, barely alive. He does not possess Quirrell until after Harry meets Quirrell in the Leaky Cauldron, right before Quirrell tries and fails to steal the Sorcerer's/PhilosopBefore SS/PS, I think this is the hole to which you were you were referring. ;-). I'm certain that Quirrell was possessed before the Leaky Cauldron meeting. Quirrell was in Albania prior to returning to Hogwarts for the new term. And I think (might be movie contamination though) that DD made a comment about Quirrell returning from Albania with *more* than he expected. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 26 20:29:32 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:29:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at ... wrote: > > In a message dated 9/26/2009 2:18:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > justcarol67 at ... writes: > > Carol responds: > Before SS/PS, LV is possessing animals in Albania, barely alive. He does > not possess Quirrell until after Harry meets Quirrell in the Leaky Cauldron, > right before Quirrell tries and fails to steal the > Sorcerer's/PhilosopBefore SS/PS, Melissa: > I think this is the hole to which you were you were referring. ;-). > > I'm certain that Quirrell was possessed before the Leaky Cauldron meeting. Quirrell was in Albania prior to returning to Hogwarts for the new term. Carol responds: I'm not sure what you mean by "hole." However, the narrator specifically mentions Quirrell, who is sitting next to Snape at the banquet, as "looking very odd" in a purple turban, clearly indicating that he was not wearing the turban (which conceals Voldemort) when Harry first met him in the Leaky Cauldron. Also, Quirrell himself states in "The Man with Two Faces" that his master possessed him after he failed to obtain the Stone to keep firmer control of him. Exactly how Quirrell brought LV back to England from Albania is unclear, but I assume that Voldemort was possessing a snake or other animal at the time, just as he must have been doing when Quirrell (and later, Wormtail), encountered him in Albania. Carol, noting that the relevant passages are in "Diagon Alley," "The Sorting Hat," and, as mentioned, "The Man with Two Faces" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 26 20:42:21 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:42:21 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187861 Janelle wrote: > 7. When Vernon is telling Hagrid that Harry's not going to Hogwarts, it's not until Hagrid mentions Dumbledore that he really explodes and starts YELLING. What does Vernon know about Dumbledore? Carol: Vernon must have read the letter that was tucked into Baby!Harry's blankets. Anything else he knows must come from Petunia, who never met DD (before HBP) and certainly would not have confessed to Vernon that she had corresponded with him. Probably she told him that DD was the headmaster of Hogwarts and from what she could gather from her sister, a "barmy old codger" (to borrow DD's own phrase). I doubt that he knows any details beyond DD's being (supposedly) a "crackpot old fool" (Vernon's own words). He may know about the protective magic that DD put on the house, but he doesn't seem to know as much about it as Petunia does, so maybe she only told him about the letter--or he read it without fully understanding the implications. > 8. Hagrid asks Harry not to mention the magic that he did at Hogwarts. Why isn't Harry at all suspicious of Hagrid? Why is he so quick to trust someone he just met who's already asking him to keep secrets? Carol: Hagrid is rescuing him from the Dursleys, can perform magic of sorts, knows about his parents (sort of), and brought Harry a birthday cake. What's to mistrust if you're an oppressed eleven-year-old boy? Carol, thanking Janelle for the additional questions From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Sep 27 13:05:59 2009 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (norbertsmummy) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:05:59 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187862 > 3. ... Dumbledore let him stay in Hogwarts as **gamekeeper**. > > Geoff: > the "Keeper of the Keys", Hagrid is certainly a gatekeeper. > > Alla: > > ... I did not know that Keeper of the Grounds means Gamekeeper, Aussie Now: I think there are 3 roles Hagrid fills 1/ Keeper of Keys -General admittance, but Filch locked the school itself during term as mentioned in the chapter when Harry used Liquid Luck (HBP) 2/ Keeper of Grounds -Keeping the outside area in order. Those 2 roles are needed when the school is in use during term. (keys only need to be there when people go in and out. Repairs to the grounds only need to happen when there is damage during usage) So while other teachers and staff go home during the holidays, Dumbledore lets Hagrid STAY at Hogwarts. That is what Hagrid is grateful to DD for. Why can Hagrid stay? Because DD created a third role ... 3/ Gamekeeper - for the many and varied magical creatures living in the Forbidden Forest. They need year around care and give Hagrid an excuse to have a place to live. His ever present Crossbow is a very ineffective weapon to use against wizards. It may have qualities handy for the beasts that frequent Hogwarts. Aussie / Norbert's Mummy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 27 16:37:01 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:37:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187863 Potioncat: I recall a recruiting effort too, but I thought it was in canon. I'd like to add, that while JKR had her story planned out, surely there were some details that altered over the course or some bits that sprung up by surprise. Is that what you were getting at, Alla? Alla: Right, personally I tend to be a bit skeptical about JKR's claim that she planned *everything*, you know? I do not think it is possible for any writer and I wish she would have stuck to saying that while the story was planned in advance (and I totally believe that main story was), she had to do side trips and change things , etc, etc. I am sure she has stories for every major character childhood, I totally believe her, I believe her that she always thought of Dumbledore as gay, things like this, of course I believe her that she always knew how Harry and Voldemort story will play out. But no, I am having trouble buying that when she wrote her first book she decided that Voldemort decided to recruit Lily and James. Especially since she said it in the interview. There are also some other things I am having trouble believing she planned, but I have no proof, they just seemed too much a response to fans. Again, those things are small and I do not think they have much bearing on the story anyway, but I wish she would not have said that she planned everything, everything. Potioncat: Do we know that accidental magic takes a dangerous turn? The incident with DD's sister seems to have been unusual. All of Harry's accidental magic has been defensive, except for blowing up Aunt Marge. Even that didn't "harm" her--and wasn't "blowing up" in the way we generally use the word "blowing up." However, the type of accidental magic could depend on the type of person. Harry's not the sort to harm someone, unless you count the surprising result of the Cutting Curse in HBP. Perhaps Bellatrix's childhood accidental magic would have looked very different? Alla: I guess I do not see that harming Dursleys when they are almost managing to cause Harry's harm as anything else but self protection, you know? Or maybe I should rephrase ? I find it inconsistent that his magic did not do anything to **protect Harry** from Dursleys. As I mentioned before I always interpreted Harry learning how to escape Vernon's hands as Harry being able to experience those hands first, and I do not see why Vernon had not been electrocuted in small dose for example. Or when they lock him in the cupboard for days, I do not see why his magic does not apparate him out when we know this did happen in different occasion. As I said, I totally understand that JKR wanted Harry to suffer to make him more sympathetic, but find it inconsistent magic wise if that makes sense. Because Hagrid is clear IMO, he is asking if things happened around Harry when he was angry and upset and he IS upset when Dursleys do it to him, but nothing happens, you know? And again, we have Aunt Marge, if something like that happened to Dursleys, would have been totally enough and consistent by me, she was upsetting him, she got blown up. Dudley, Vernon and Petunia upset him how many times if only emotionally (and I do not think it was only emotionally)? And nothing happened, nada. I find it inconsistent, IMO of course. JMO, Alla From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 27 16:58:46 2009 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 27 Sep 2009 16:58:46 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/27/2009, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1254070726.500.32724.m8@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187864 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday September 27, 2009 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Sep 27 20:06:35 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 20:06:35 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 4, The Keeper of the Keys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187865 > Alla: > > Right, personally I tend to be a bit skeptical about JKR's claim that she planned *everything*, you know? I do not think it is possible for any writer and I wish she would have stuck to saying that while the story was planned in advance (and I totally believe that main story was), she had to do side trips and change things , etc, etc. Potioncat: But she has said that. She's talked about the deleted side-story of Theo Nott and Draco talking at Draco's house. That was a scene intended--iirc--to show us Draco interacting with a true peer. Also there was Ron's cousin--Mafalda, Meleficent---something like that---who didn't make it into the book at all. I don't have any specific interview in mind, they've all blurred at this point. But I don't see a contradition or untruth in saying she had it all planned out, yet having some things change as she went along. Back to Lily and James being recruited, do we have either canon or interview that said that LV attempted or wanted to get them to join the DEs? I feel like we do, I just don't remember what it was. I also think that as she went along with her planned version, real life interfered. So that reader reaction may have influenced some events and even her interaction with the actors in the movies had some small affect on the story. She's admitted that her mother's death drove the story into a darker beginning than she originally intended. But I doubt that any of those changes were counter to her vision. Alla: > Because Hagrid is clear IMO, he is asking if things happened around Harry when he was angry and upset and he IS upset when Dursleys do it to him, but nothing happens, you know? Potioncat: I know we are commenting on our own opinions and reactions to canon, but I don't see an inconsistency. We know that magic does not solve all problems; nor is it perfect. Hagrid asks, "Never made things happen when you was scared or angry?" He isn't asking if things always happened. Think of Neville, apparantly he never had any accidental magic at all until he was dropped out a window; even though his family had started trying to trick it out of him. JMO From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 27 21:31:38 2009 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:31:38 -0000 Subject: Son of son of son of chapter 4 discussion... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187866 Alla discussed PS/SS Chapter 4 in but everything I thought of saying in that discussion has already been posted by other people. Potioncat wrote in : << We get a nice progression as the story unfolds. Hagrid carries Baby Harry from the ruins of the house to the Dursleys'. Hagrid takes Harry from the rock to the WW. Hagrid carries Harry from the Dursleys during the 7 Potters. Hagrid carries Harry's "body" to the castle. He also carries DD's remains to the mausoleum. >> He also takes the first-years in boats to their first entry into Hogwarts Castle. *Those* are the keys of which Hagrid is the Keeper, not those clunky iron things invented by Muggles. (Wizarding locks, inspired by Muggle locks, are harder to pick because they work by magic rather than by tumblers.) I think it was Hans Andreas who pointed this out. Steve bboyminn wrote in : << What if the Dursley's were religious nut who had endoctrinated Harry, and he refused on religious ground? >> It seems that DD had scoped out Lily's sister's household long enough before Lily's death thar he already had put Mrs Figg in place to observe them. I don't know why he did that. But probably he already knew that the Dursleys weren't religious by the time he put Harry with them. Even if he knew nothing at that time, he knew from Mrs Figg by the time Harry was eleven that the Dursleys weren't religious and that Harry wasn't religious. If Harry had objected to magic on religious grounds, DD will have had to put something in his scheme to overcome those objections. I don't think Hagrid could act well enough to pass himself off as Elijah or John the Baptist, a prophet sent by God, but maybe DD could find some other wizard who was a good enough actor while being physically intimidating to the Dursleys. More questions raised by these answers: 1) Why didn't Harry become religious as an act of rebellion and/or refuge from the Dursleys? 2) What did DD really expect the Dursleys to do with Harry, other than involuntarily providing magical protection? He knew a bit of how awful the Dursleys were. He hoped that they would come to love Harry, for being a helpless baby, and treat him as their own. He knew how they treated their own Dudley, and if he really had any expectation that the Dursleys might possibly treat Harry as their own, what led him to say at least Harry wouldn't be raised as a pampered prince? At least he wouldn't be raised as a celebrity (famous before he can walk or talk! famous for something he can't even remember! He will be better off as just an ordinary kid) is not the same thing as not being indulged and idolized. 3.Why did DD scope out the Dursleys in advance? Maybe he wanted to check whether there was some way that LV could use them against Lily, maybe by putting them under Imperius to visit the Potters and assassinate Lily and James, maybe by using Petunia's body parts to make anti-Lily potions. Maybe he decided that LV *could* use them and that's why he put Mrs Figg on guard. Maybe DD required all Order members to make wills and appoint guardians for their children, and maybe he took it on himself to make back-up plans when the chosen guardians were also Order members (or Aurors or other high-risk professions), so it was not out of the ordinary for him to check who would care for baby Harry if Lily, James, and Sirius were all killed. DH's revelation of just how cold Albus was casts some doubt on this. Maybe it was only the possible Prophecy Boys, Harry and Neville, for whom he made this effort. Maybe he only did it for Harry, only after he learned that LV had appointed Harry the Prophecy Boy. He had a year from the time Snape told him that LV was targeting Harry and his parents in which to make arrangements. If a year isn't long enough for a house in Little Whinging to go on the market, he could magically interfere ... inspire some suitably located homeowners with a craving to emigrate to Australia and put their English house on the market... As cold as DH showed him, maybe he struck an old widow with dementia so her children had to put her into a nursing home, or turned an old widow into a cat so Mrs Figg could just assume her identity along with her house... Carol wrote in : << Regardless of what JKR said off the top of her head in an interview, I can't imagine Voldemort or the DEs in general attempting to recruit Lily. Not only is she Muggle-born, she's adamantly opposed to Dark magic and DEs. ... he knew, thanks to Wormtail, that they were both members of the Order. (Merely joining the Order may constitute defying him once.)>> We don't know how much of a fool LV was before he died the first time. The characters talk about how good he was at seducing and manipulating and deceiving people, in which case he should have known that trying to recruit Lily or James or Sirius was a waste of time, and any recruitment attempts would have been made by mere Death Eaters, maybe Lucius Malfoy, who either didn't understand how impossible it was, or who valued James's and Sirius's pure blood (for breeding purposes) more than LV did. That Order members can be recruited by the Dark Side, Peter is proof. The offer to Sirius: come on, you know we're your kind of people with your kind of values. Why do you want to side with a bunch of puritan preachers who say you're a bully just because you joked a bit with some Muggle please-men while kindly saving their lives from the wizard they were pursuing and bravely capturing that wizard yourself? You know we're the real good guys because we like jokes and we honor bravery. Sirius is not tempted by that offer because he would never turn against James, would never side with Bellatrix, and really doesn't like torture, even if he did bump unconscious Snape's head against the roof of the tunnel. The offer to James: join our team and you can keep that red-haired Mudblood as your concubine. When we kill or enslave all the Mudbloods, we'll spare her. You can save her life and gain many other benefits at no cost to yourself except you should marry a pureblood witch and have at least three children by her, but you wouldn't have to live with her. If you want to hunt dragons or play Quidditch, you could do so whenever wherever you want, with no interface by those Muggle-loving statutes of secrecy. James would never accept that offer because, first of all, he knows Lord Voldemort is a big liar and probably won't keep any promise to spare Lily, also he would never turn against Sirius or any of his friends, he doesn't want to enslave Muggles, and he doesn't want to demote Lily to concubine. The offer to Lily: you know we're going to win. You know when we win we're going to kill all the Mudbloods. But we might make an exception for you and spare your life if you help us enough to earn such a reward. Lily would just laugh nastily at them: "Do you really think that I would fight against my husband exactly when he's fighting to save MY life?" But some [gullible] Muggle-born may have been recruited on the promise of being an exception to the mass slaughter. When fans asked Rowling (pre-HBP of course) if Snape was a pureblood, she replied that they already knew he was not a Muggleborn because Muggleborns are not allowed to become Death Eaters *except in very rare circumstances*. That made me think that there was an occasion in which a Muggleborn became a Death Eater. That made me think that the very rare circumstance in which that happened was Peter (I had previously believed Peter to be a pureblood, but then, I had previously believed Snape to be a pureblood, altho' not a wealthy pureblood), a member of the Order willing to betray it in exchange for his life. A Secret Keeper willing to give away the secret in exchange for his life. Yes, they did send Peter's finger and the Order of Merlin to his mother, which gave me the impression that she lived in the wizarding world, but I suppose the parents of Muggleborns, like Hermione's parents until she Confunded them, know enough about the wizarding world to understand when a bloke in robes Apparates unto their front doorstep and says 'Please sit down. I have bad news.' From sherriola at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 02:49:54 2009 From: sherriola at gmail.com (sherriola) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:49:54 -0000 Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187867 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone Chapter Five: Diagon Alley I've always thought of this chapter as a fun chapter, full of delight and wonder. But as I read it over for this summary, I came to realize how much important information for the rest of the entire series is hidden in these pages, sometimes even hidden in plain sight. Harry wakens in the hut to the sound of an owl tapping on the window, but believing it's all been a dream. Hagrid explains post owls and wizard money, and they go on their way to Diagon Alley. Harry is introduced to the Leaky Cauldron and gets the first glimpse of his true fame. In Diagon Alley, he is amazed by the sight and sounds. He goes to Gringots to get money, where Hagrid also gets the mysterious something out of another vault. Then it's off to get his robes. Harry and Draco have their first meeting in the robe shop, leaving Harry with a negative impression of Draco and Slytherin and learning the word quidditch for the first time. Harry goes on to buy his other school supplies. Hagrid gets Harry what may be his first birthday present, a beautiful snowy owl. Last of all, he goes to Ollivander's to get his wand. He tries many wands before finding the right one and learns that it is the brother to Voldemort's wand. As Harry and Hagrid have dinner, harry expresses concerns about being famous for something he can't remember and worrying about what people expect of him, and if he will be able to measure up when he gets to Hogwarts. Hagrid assures him that everyone starts at the beginning at Hogwarts. The chapter ends with Harry making his way back to the Dursleys. Questions: 1. Harry begins getting introduced to the wizarding world and its ways from the beginning of this chapter with owl post and different money. When you first read this chapter, what were some of the things that interested or captivated you about the sights to which harry, and we, are introduced? 2. This chapter is full of information that is either vital to the rest of the series or foreshadows events to come or themes in the series. What jumps out at you in this chapter that is important to the rest of the series? 3. We've already been introduced to Rowling's magnificent sense of humor in this book, but we see more of it in this chapter. Even the name Diagon alley, and the authors of some of the school books. What things tickled your funny bone when reading this chapter? 4. Harry gets his first real introduction to his fame when he arrives at the Leaky Cauldron. What was your reaction to this scene? Did you think anything about Quirrel's behavior? Did you think Doris Crockford would be more than the extra she was? 5. Do the words engraved on the silver doors of Gringots foreshadow what will happen in DH, when Harry goes to steal the cup? 6. Harry and Draco have their first meeting in this chapter. We know that this is a vital first meeting, affecting both boys for the rest of the series. Thinking back to just this moment, without the knowledge you have now, what did you think of this meeting? How could Harry and or Draco have behaved differently to change the relationship between them for the future? Could this have seriously affected events in the future? 7. Harry develops his anti-Slytherin feelings in this chapter, based on Draco's behavior and Hagrid's line about there not being a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. From POA onward, we know this isn't true. Did you believe the bad Slytherin theme at this point in the story? Could Hagrid really not have known that people from all houses could become followers of Voldemort? Are there any other instances of misinformation in this chapter? 8. Over dinner, Harry expresses his fears and insecurity to Hagrid, worrying about what people will expect of him. What does this say about harry? 9 At the end of the chapter, Hagrid puts Harry on a train for home. For a child who had never been to London and probably not far from Privet drive on his own, how did he get back to the Dursleys? 10 please add any of your own questions or thoughts that come to mind as you read this chapter. NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and Three Quarters, on October 6, 2009. If you would like to volunteer to lead a PS/SS chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From kersberg at chello.nl Tue Sep 29 11:52:21 2009 From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:52:21 -0000 Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sherriola" wrote: > -*SNAP*- > 6. Harry and Draco have their first meeting in this chapter. We know that this is a vital first meeting, affecting both boys for the rest of the series. Thinking back to just this moment, without the knowledge you have now, what did you think of this meeting? How could Harry and or Draco have behaved differently to change the relationship between them for the future? Could this have seriously affected events in the future? -*SNAP*- kamion writing: The meeting with Draco is about the most important one Harry has, and it mirrors the action in Book 7, ch.23 Malfoy Manor. The quite unconsious haunty and nasty attitude not only sets Harry's mood against Draco and Slytherin, it also arms him against the Slytheresc influence of the 7th Horcrux. It's that piece of soul the Sorting Hat experiences as ambieus Slytherin qualities and intents it to Sort Harry into Slytherin. Had Harry not developes such an antipathy against Draco he would not have resisted the Hat. In book 2 Harry fears to be of the same cut as Voldemort, yet his choices makes him different and a "good guy". Sorted into Slytherin those choices would have been exposed to quite different temptations. It could very well happened that Draco had behaved more amiable, when he knew from the first moment on that it was Harry Potter who entered the shop. Draco has quite an oppinion of himself and a celebrity like Harry Potter would be worthy to become his friend. Harry would have gained a friend, who would let him down and without knowing had disarmed him in the mental opposition against Voldemort. Had Harry won Draco, he would had lost from Voldemort. Luckely Draco could not imagine the ragball to be the famous Harry Potter and he was his nasty himself. Had the both been in the same House and friends they mst likely would have grown apart over the years, too much contrasting interests and the final break would certainly have come when Draco got ordered to kill Dumbledore. But I wonder if Harry would have captured Draco's wand as in the last book, that was quite an instinctive reaction, which turn out to be crucial for the defeat. Without knowing Draco did put Harry's first foot on the path of victory by just being a spoiled brat on a stool. From Jenny.s89 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 29 12:09:06 2009 From: Jenny.s89 at hotmail.com (sderberg_jenny) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:09:06 -0000 Subject: Son of son of son of chapter 4 discussion... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187869 > Carol wrote in : > > << Regardless of what JKR said off the top of her head in an interview, I can't imagine Voldemort or the DEs in general attempting to recruit Lily. Not only is she Muggle-born, she's adamantly opposed to Dark magic and DEs. ... he knew, thanks to Wormtail, that they were both members of the Order. (Merely joining the Order may constitute defying him once.)>> > I don't think Voldemort was going to recruit Lily as a death-eater, as much as planning to put her under Imperius. We know she was gifted with charms, and from HBP it is plausible to presume that she was also good with potions. sderberg_jenny From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 29 17:14:18 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:14:18 -0000 Subject: Son of son of son of chapter 4 discussion... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187870 Carol earlier: > > << Regardless of what JKR said off the top of her head in an interview, I can't imagine Voldemort or the DEs in general attempting to recruit Lily. Not only is she Muggle-born, she's adamantly opposed to Dark magic and DEs. ... he knew, thanks to Wormtail, that they were both members of the Order. (Merely joining the Order may constitute defying him once.)>> > > sderberg_jenny responded: > > I don't think Voldemort was going to recruit Lily as a death-eater, as much as planning to put her under Imperius. We know she was gifted with charms, and from HBP it is plausible to presume that she was also good with potions. Carol responded: Possibly, but I don't think it's likely. He certainly didn't need Lily to make potions given that he had the potions genius Snape, and the only indication we have that Lily is good at charms is Ollivander's remark that her first wand was "a nice wand for charm work," which LV didn't know about. His complete indifference toward her ("move aside, silly girl!") indicates to me that she was nothing more to him than the woman Snape desired, whom he had agreed to spare if she didn't try to fight him, and the Prophecy boy's "Muggle" mother. He doesn't address her by name (only as "silly girl") or indicate any respect for her powers, only contempt for her carelessness (and James's) in trusting a friend (Wormtail) and setting aside her wand. In the DH memory, the narrator, from LV's perspective, refers to James Potter by name four times but refers to Lily (even though he knows her name, which James uses before he dies) only as "the mother" and "she." Even if he knew of her talents, which he apparently didn't, he would have disregarded or denied them because in his eyes she was just a "Muggle," and in any case, he didn't need her. He had the brilliant and multi-talented Snape, who could not only make any known potion and improve on it but invent his own charms and hexes. Granted, he seems to have used Snape mostly as a spy, but it seems inconceivable to me that Snape didn't make a potion or two as well. At any rate, we have no canon and not even an interview to indicate that LV planned to put Lily under the Imperius Curse. He may have assumed that Snape would do so after LV killed Lily's son and husband, but it was apparently a matter of no concern to him (as long as Snape didn't actually marry the "Muggle" and contaminate his bloodline). Carol, wishing that JKR had refused to be interviewed without being allowed to consult her own books first From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 29 19:12:24 2009 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:12:24 -0000 Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187871 CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone Chapter Five: Diagon Alley 1. Harry begins getting introduced to the wizarding world and its ways from the beginning of this chapter with owl post and different money. When you first read this chapter, what were some of the things that interested or captivated you about the sights to which harry, and we, are introduced? Janelle: I don't really remember what my first reactions were, but looking back at the chapter now I'm guessing that I was starting to get a Halloween-like feel about it. This is where were first hear about goblins and vampires and potions ingredients, so I'm sure that my mind started wandering in that direction. 2. This chapter is full of information that is either vital to the rest of the series or foreshadows events to come or themes in the series. What jumps out at you in this chapter that is important to the rest of the series? Janelle: Obviously there are things like the brother wands and the idea of breaking into Gringotts which show how integrated the entire series is. The two things that jump out at me most, however, are things that at one point I thought might be really important, which turned out not to be. Specifically, the wand in the window at Olivanders (I thought it might be a horcrux, hidden in plain sight), and the rubies being weighed by a goblin at Gringotts (after seeing the british cover for DH I thought they might have come from Gryffindor's vault). 3. We've already been introduced to Rowling's magnificent sense of humor in this book, but we see more of it in this chapter. Even the name Diagon alley, and the authors of some of the school books. What things tickled your funny bone when reading this chapter? Janelle: I did always enjoy "Vindictus Viridian" and Hagrid's statement that cursing Dudley wasn't necessarily a bad idea! 4. Harry gets his first real introduction to his fame when he arrives at the Leaky Cauldron. What was your reaction to this scene? Did you think anything about Quirrel's behavior? Did you think Doris Crockford would be more than the extra she was? If anything Dedalus Diggle is the one that I would have expected to play a bigger role, given the fact that Harry had seen him before. As far as Quirrell, I took Hagrid at his word in saying he was a generally nervous guy and I didn't have any suspicions about him. 5. Do the words engraved on the silver doors of Gringots foreshadow what will happen in DH, when Harry goes to steal the cup? Janelle: In reading them again I think that the wording is interesting in the way that it relates to Harry and his later break-in. It says to beware of the "sin of greed" (and we know that Harry was not breaking into the bank due to greed), it also says to beware of taking what you didn't earn (I would argue that Harry did earn that cup!), the third part, however, about taking what was never yours is the one that trips him up in the end. The cup was never his and so he does find more than treasure in that vault and he has to fight his way out. 6. Harry and Draco have their first meeting in this chapter. We know that this is a vital first meeting, affecting both boys for the rest of the series. Thinking back to just this moment, without the knowledge you have now, what did you think of this meeting? How could Harry and or Draco have behaved differently to change the relationship between them for the future? Could this have seriously affected events in the future? Janelle: I think it's interesting that Draco automatically assumes that Harry is a pure-blood wizard and begins talking to him in a somewhat-friendly manner. That being said, I don't know that much could have changed this interation. Draco is just being himself- it's not the way that he treats Harry that turns Harry off, it's the way that he speaks- he even uses the word "bully." If Harry hadn't grown up being bullied he might not have thought of Dudley right away and he might not have disliked Draco right away. If Draco hadn't been such a brat, he might not have said those things. Maybe if Draco had opened with something different Harry might have befriended him, sat with him on the train a month later, ended up in Slytherin and started out his years at school very differently. Eventually, however, I think Harry's true nature as a good, caring person would have won out. Dumbledore still would have taken him under his wing- unfortunately, though, Harry wouldn't have had the support of Ron and Hermione to get him through. 7. Harry develops his anti-Slytherin feelings in this chapter, based on Draco's behavior and Hagrid's line about there not being a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. From POA onward, we know this isn't true. Did you believe the bad Slytherin theme at this point in the story? Could Hagrid really not have known that people from all houses could become followers of Voldemort? Are there any other instances of misinformation in this chapter? Janelle: Because the story had been told in such simplistic ways up to this point, I definitely bought into the concept of Slytherin being bad. As far as Hagrid's statement, I'm sure that he doesn't really beleive it- he was probably just exaggerating, generalizing (not a good thing to do, but something everyone does). He wasn't thinking about the possible effect on Harry hearing it. I can't think of any other instances of direct misinformation, although there is the ambiguity of Quirrell's position at Hogwarts- how long has he been there? When did he take time off? How long has he been the DADA teacher? (All things that we can answer now- kinda, but things that we were unclear on as the new-teacher-every-year thing became more evident!) 8. Over dinner, Harry expresses his fears and insecurity to Hagrid, worrying about what people will expect of him. What does this say about harry? Janelle: I think that this shows that Harry is a normal, modest kid. The fame hasn't gone to his head- he doesn't automatically believe that he's going to be a great wizard just because everyone says so. He doesn't have a lot of confidence in himself at this point. That's something that he has to work for, like everybody else. 9 At the end of the chapter, Hagrid puts Harry on a train for home. For a child who had never been to London and probably not far from Privet drive on his own, how did he get back to the Dursleys? Janelle: Interesting question, I guess we can't really know the answer but here are a few possiblities: Maybe the Dursley's live quite close to the train station and Harry could walk home? Maybe Hagrid/Dumbledore will have arranged for the Dursley's to pick him up? Maybe Mrs. Figg happens to be nearby and takes him him? 10 please add any of your own questions or thoughts that come to mind as you read this chapter. Janelle: Re-reading this chapter now, it is amazing how much information there is. This is not only Harry's introduction to the wizarding world, but the reader's as well. We get an inkling of Hagrid's drinking, Draco's attitudes, Ollivander's role, the dynamics between the houses, and so many other things that are important throughout the series, however, we never feel overloaded with information, most of it is small details that you ignore initially and pick up on later! From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Sep 29 19:32:08 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:32:08 -0000 Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jelly92784" wrote: > 9 At the end of the chapter, Hagrid puts Harry on a train for home. For a child who had never been to London and probably not far from Privet drive on his own, how did he get back to the Dursleys? Janelle: > Interesting question, I guess we can't really know the answer but here are a few possiblities: Maybe the Dursley's live quite close to the train station and Harry could walk home? Maybe Hagrid/Dumbledore will have arranged for the Dursley's to pick him up? Maybe Mrs. Figg happens to be nearby and takes him him? Geoff: Harry may not have been to London previously but Hagrid saw him to Paddington railway station and onto his train. Although he may not be familiar with being away from Little Whinging, and also perhaps rather nervous, Harry is by no means an idiot. Hagrid probably told him where to get off the train - Harry might already know this anyway if there is a station at Little Whinging. I suspect he would have to make his own way back, possibly on foot; I can hardly see the Dursleys picking him up. From rhkennerly at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 20:22:45 2009 From: rhkennerly at gmail.com (Rick H. Kennerly) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:22:45 -0400 Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley In-Reply-To: <31564014.1254252974726.JavaMail.root@n11> References: <31564014.1254252974726.JavaMail.root@n11> Message-ID: <4AC26C95.4050507@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187873 > Sherry wrote: > > 9. At the end of the chapter, Hagrid puts Harry on a train for home. > For a child who had never been to London and probably not far from > Privet drive on his own, how did he get back to the Dursleys? > -- In subsequent books Vernon Dursley picks Harry up at the station. However, in SS/PS it's an open question. Rick Kennerly Virginia Beach, VA www.mouseherder.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Sep 29 23:38:20 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:38:20 -0000 Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187874 > 7. Harry develops his anti-Slytherin feelings in this chapter, based on Draco's behavior and Hagrid's line about there not being a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. From POA onward, we know this isn't true. Did you believe the bad Slytherin theme at this point in the story? Could Hagrid really not have known that people from all houses could become followers of Voldemort? Are there any other instances of misinformation in this chapter? Pippin: Hagrid is generalizing, just as he'll generalize in GoF that House Elves are happy as they are. If pressed at this point, he'd have said there are always exceptions, since he certainly knew that Sirius Black was in Gryffindor. Hagrid says that everyone says Hufflepuff are a load of duffers, which is also an exaggeration, since not everyone says that. Professor Sprout certainly wouldn't. Other things which I thought might be exaggerations turned out not to be -- dragons at Gringotts, for example. At this point in the story I was prepared to accept the Slytherins as classic don't-bees, but since all the reviews I'd read said that these books were subtle I was wondering what the reviewers were talking about. > > 9 At the end of the chapter, Hagrid puts Harry on a train for home. For a child who had never been to London and probably not far from Privet drive on his own, how did he get back to the Dursleys? Pippin: Harry isn't confined to the house except when he's being punished. He goes to school and the barbers (once a week, if we can believe that) and he's been shopping with Petunia. Train stations are often centrally located, so if he's been to Little Whinging's shopping street, which is where the barbershop is likely to be, he'd probably know where the train station is and how to get home from there. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Sep 30 11:59:57 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:59:57 -0000 Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187875 > 1. Harry begins getting introduced to the wizarding world and its ways from the beginning of this chapter with owl post and different money. When you first read this chapter, what were some of the things that interested or captivated you about the sights to which harry, and we, are introduced? Potioncat: I don't remember what my first reaction was, I've re-read this book several times over the years. Whether it's the book or TMTMNBN I find this section exciting. There are so many new things to see and experience. This is where we get our first look of JKR's magical world, and get the first inkling that it will be both familiar and different from what we're used to in a story about magic. > 2. This chapter is full of information that is either vital to the rest of the series or foreshadows events to come or themes in the series. What jumps out at you in this chapter that is important to the rest of the series? Potioncat: This answer could be as long as the chapter. I'll narrow it down to three areas that particularly stood out Gringotts, Ollivander and the Malfoys. The adventure Harry will have in DH in Grigotts is set up in this chapter. Come on, did any of us really think there was a dragon in there? But this part has been answered better than I could. Ollivander gives us a bit of wand-lore that does play out, and how that played out has been the source for several threads. Ollivander also makes his "great things---terrible, yes, but great" comment about LV. It made Harry think he didn't like Ollivander too much and it caused many of us to distrust him. This time, reading it in context, his real emphasis seems to be on Harry's potential. If these brother wands choose powerful wizards, and if Harry already has a reputation, then Ollivander would be right in expecting some powerful magic from Harry. Still, I can't imagine using the word "great" for anything LV did. Two things jumped out about Draco Malfoy. He is very outgoing, and he's very na?ve. He takes it for granted that this boy is one of "our" kind and says a lot more than he should have. Yep, we see his nature here, and his upbringing. Some of his reasons for not wanting Muggle-born into Hogwarts sound very familiar within the RW of today. I'd forgotten how very current that aspect of the bigotry is.. We may have thought we had a WW version of the Dursleys, with Draco talking about bullying his father. Yet I see the first signs in this chapter of the depth of Malfoy family loyalty that will play out over the course of the series. Also a bit ironic that Narcissa is previewing wands; she'll be the one to replace the wand later on. > 3. We've already been introduced to Rowling's magnificent sense of humor in this book, but we see more of it in this chapter. Even the name Diagon alley, and the authors of some of the school books. What things tickled your funny bone when reading this chapter? Potioncat: My favorite is Arsenius Jigger and I'm ashamed to say I didn't catch it the first time. > 4. Harry gets his first real introduction to his fame when he arrives at the Leaky Cauldron. What was your reaction to this scene? Did you think anything about Quirrel's behavior? Did you think Doris Crockford would be more than the extra she was? Potioncat: I'm sure I didn't at the first reading, not knowing how important little things could be. I know we poured over her name quite a bit at one point. After all, we see the name several times. Yet who of us gave Mrs. Figg a second thought until much later? > 6. Harry and Draco have their first meeting in this chapter. We know that this is a vital first meeting, affecting both boys for the rest of the series. Thinking back to just this moment, without the knowledge you have now, what did you think of this meeting? How could Harry and or Draco have behaved differently to change the relationship between them for the future? Could this have seriously affected events in the future? Potioncat: I think Draco's opinion about Muggle-borns and about Hagrid would have prevented any friendship between him and Harry. He reveals his true colors up front. What did strike me though, is that Draco isn't exactly wrong about Hagrid. In fact, he's darn right. I'm sure he's repeating what he's heard from his parents, but I wonder how many others might share that feeling? There's nothing here about Hagrid's blood, just his behavior. In a few years we'll learn that Ravenclaw students consider Hagrid a joke. I was wondering what would have happened if the boy being fitted had been someone else, who said nothing about "our" kind but still made those comments about Hagrid. > > 7. Harry develops his anti-Slytherin feelings in this chapter, based on Draco's behavior and Hagrid's line about there not being a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. From POA onward, we know this isn't true. Did you believe the bad Slytherin theme at this point in the story? Potioncat: I clung to the theory of the Good Slytherin up to the last page of DH. I was sure we had been set up to form our own bit of prejudice just to have it knocked down. I think JKR did intend Slytherin to be the bad guys. Did anyone feel differently about Slytherin House at the end of DH with both Snape and Slughorn coming through for Hogwarts? Thanks for the discussion, Sherri! From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 30 19:21:01 2009 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:21:01 -0000 Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187876 --- "sherriola" wrote: >... > > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone/Philosopher Stone > > Chapter Five: Diagon Alley > > > > I've always thought of this chapter as a fun chapter, full of delight and wonder. ... > bboyminn: Let me start by saying this is one of the most wonderful chapters in the entire series. We get to share in Harry's wonderment as he enters with wizard world for the first time. We also get to share in Harry's doubt, which is equally nice, and very touching. > > Questions: > 1. Harry begins getting introduced to the wizarding world and its ways from the beginning of this chapter with owl post and different money. When you first read this chapter, what were some of the things that interested or captivated you about the sights to which harry, and we, are introduced? > bboyminn: It seems Harry is on an emotional rollercoaster. He wakes depressed, sure it was all a dream. The opens his eyes to find Hagrid on the couch and an owl at the window. He swells with joy. Then, as he lets the owl is, he feels a rush of fear, thinking that the owl attacking Hagrid's coat might mess it all up for him. And the theme seems to carry through; fear of not having money, joy of knowing his parents left him an inheritance, uncertainty about buy all these odd things from his list in London, the thrill and confusion as everyone in the Leaky Cauldron rushes to shake his hand, and on and on it goes in a never ending rush of changing emotions. I can't think of a single scene is this chapter that is not thoroughly thrilling and engrossing. > > 2. This chapter is full of information that is either vital to the rest of the series or foreshadows events to come or themes in the series. What jumps out at you in this chapter that is important to the rest of the series? > bboyminn: JKR is using this opportunity to establish important characters, and quickly lay the ground work for the rest of the story. I think pretty much everything we, and Harry, encounter is important in some way. Though certainly some characters are more important than others. > 3. We've already been introduced to Rowling's magnificent sense of humor in this book, but we see more of it in this chapter. Even the name Diagon alley, and the authors of some of the school books. What things tickled your funny bone when reading this chapter? > bboyminn: The ride on the carts under Gringott's was pretty thrilling and certainly establishes Harry's sense of wonder and joy at the amazing world he has been brought into. If Harry had any doubts about going to Hogwarts and being part of the wizard world, they are certainly gone after this trip to Diagon Alley. > > 4. Harry gets his first real introduction to his fame when he arrives at the Leaky Cauldron. What was your reaction to this scene? Did you think anything about Quirrel's behavior? Did you think Doris Crockford would be more than the extra she was? > bboyminn: Well in pretty much any book, a character, no matter how seemly insignificant at the moment, that stands out, will certainly be important later in the book. I really like Doris Crockford and Dedalus Diggle. They are people Harry is certain to remember for a long time to come. I also think there is a certain thrill for both Harry and Dedalus when Harry remembers Dedalus. I think it might be a sign to us that Harry hasn't been as alone as he thought he was. Remember at some point Dumbledore says he has watched Harry more closely than Harry could every imagine. I also think, in a subtle way, meeting Dedalus again in the wizard world helps confirm to Harry that this is real and not just a dream. > 5. Do the words engraved on the silver doors of Gringots foreshadow what will happen in DH, when Harry goes to steal the cup? > bboyminn: Oh most certainly. I didn't see it at the time, but the whole security thing at Gringott's should have been a clear sign to any astute reader, that future trouble was brewing at Gringott's. It took us 7 books to get there, but we were definitely going there are sure as the sun shines. > 6. Harry and Draco have their first meeting in this chapter. We know that this is a vital first meeting, affecting both boys for the rest of the series. Thinking back to just this moment, without the knowledge you have now, what did you think of this meeting? How could Harry and or Draco have behaved differently to change the relationship between them for the future? Could this have seriously affected events in the future? > bboyminn: In a sense, as other have indicated, we see Draco in his true colors here. He has a sense of privilege and entitlement that only comes from growing up rich. I suspect had he known who Harry was, he would have been far more polite and deferential. And, that could have altered things. But I think the true break between them comes in a later chapter when they meet on the train, and Draco offers to shake Harry's hand. But, unwisely on Draco's part, that hand shake is conditional. It means accepting Draco, and rejecting Ron, who Harry likes a lot. If Draco had been polite, and not put Ron and his family down, I think Harry would have shook his hand, and they would have been off to a somewhat polite and formal start. But Draco's complete rejection of Ron, Harry's first true friend, is unacceptable. Further, Harry's rejection of Draco's hand shake is the rejection that sets Draco against Harry for years to come. That, much more than their first meeting, is what set them apart, which turns them irrevocable against each other. Though the first meeting set the stage in a way that makes it very easy for Harry to accept Ron and reject Draco. > > 7. Harry develops his anti-Slytherin feelings in this chapter, based on Draco's behavior and Hagrid's line about there not being a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. From POA onward, we know this isn't true. Did you believe the bad Slytherin theme at this point in the story? Could Hagrid really not have known that people from all houses could become followers of Voldemort? Are there any other instances of misinformation in this chapter? > bboyminn: I think it was clear that Slytherin's were generally bad, and I think that hold true through out the story, even to the end. But generally bad is not specifically bad. Certainly there would be exceptions. I believed Slytherin's have a tendency to be bad, but even this early I doubted whether they were uniformly to the last person bad. It almost has to be this way in any book. There have to be acceptions amoung both the good guys and the bad guys, otherwise, it would likely be a poorly written story. > 8. Over dinner, Harry expresses his fears and insecurity to Hagrid, worrying about what people will expect of him. What does this say about harry? > bboyminn: Ah...finally we are to one of the most touching and endearing scenes in this chapter, and perhaps in the entire series. I could so clearly picture Harry and Hagrid in a hamburger restaurant (likely a fast food joint) Hagrid way to big for the seats, and Harry feeling and looking very small in comparison. I saws a fan artwork of that scene that captured the mood perfectly, over sized Hagrid and small downtrodden desperate Harry. I was very moved by this moment. I think it says Harry has doubts. He sees himself as a very ordinary guy, continually belittled and diminshed by the Dursleys, yet people expect great things of him. How can plain ordinary 'just Harry' be expected to accomplish extraordinary things? His doubt are very understandable, and for me very touching. > 9 At the end of the chapter, Hagrid puts Harry on a train for home. For a child who had never been to London and probably not far from Privet drive on his own, how did he get back to the Dursleys? > bboyminn: This is a hotly debated issue. OK, Harry takes the train back to Little Whinging, but then what? Does he phone the Dursleys? Does he have money for the phone? Does he call collect? Is the train station close enough for Harry to walk? It seems as if it is already getting dark when Harry sets off, how late was it when he finally got home, and what happened when he did arrive home? Did the Durlsy's treat him like he had the plague and avoid him? Were they angry with him? A lot of unanswered questions here. Yet, the answers to those questions, interesting as they may be, really don't move the story forward. So, in the story, we move on. > 10 please add any of your own questions or thoughts that come to mind as you read this chapter. > >... From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 30 19:35:36 2009 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:35:36 -0000 Subject: chapter discussions, SS/PS, chapter 5, Diagon Alley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187877 --- "Geoff" wrote: > > --- "jelly92784" wrote: > > > 9 At the end of the chapter, Hagrid puts Harry on a train for home. For a child who had never been to London and probably not far from Privet drive on his own, how did he get back to the Dursleys? > > Janelle: > > Interesting question, I guess we can't really know the answer but here are a few possiblities: Maybe the Dursley's live quite close to the train station and Harry could walk home? Maybe Hagrid/Dumbledore will have arranged for the Dursley's to pick him up? Maybe Mrs. Figg happens to be nearby and takes him him? > > Geoff: > Harry may not have been to London previously but Hagrid saw him > to Paddington railway station and onto his train. > > Although he may not be familiar with being away from Little Whinging, and also perhaps rather nervous, Harry is by no means an idiot. Hagrid probably told him where to get off the train - Harry might already know this anyway if there is a station at Little Whinging. I suspect he would have to make his own way back, possibly on foot; I can hardly see the Dursleys picking him up. > bboyminn: Let's remember that Harry is ladened with Spell books, potion ingredients, Hedwig's cage, and assorted other things. While I have no doubt that Harry would have and could have walked, even a long distance back to the Dursely's, it would certainly not have been an easy task. So, my point is, Harry doesn't just have to get himself back to the Dursley's, he has to also get a very substantial arm load of other stuff back there too. Steve/bboyminn