CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 187759


> Alla:
> 
> I do not remember meeting anybody in the books discussing other choices period except Dumbledore and forgive me if I find his words to be a bit of self justification and suspect.

Pippin:
We know Fudge's idea of how to protect Harry: surround him with dementors. He also thinks it would take a squad of hit wizards just to cope with Black alone. Then there's Fudge's plan B: deny that any danger exists. Scrimgeour offers Harry the protection of aurors, but won't claim they could hold off Voldemort in person. They couldn't even catch Dumbledore.

Hermione thinks Voldemort wouldn't dare invade the Ministry, but when he does, no one can stop him from getting away.

Molly fears she can't protect her family from Voldemort, even with the Order to help her. And the clock backs her up. What part of "mortal peril" don't you understand?



> Alla:
> 
> Why should he be sorry? Probably because he is not a family member and nobody died and made him in charge of Harry's well-being. You say he is not God, to me it felt that he indeed appointed himself a God and acted like one. 
> I do not know where Sirius would have taken Harry to, if Dumbledore would not have sent Hagrid.

Pippin:
James and Lily died and left Dumbledore the only one who understood why Voldemort would want to kill Harry. But explaining about horcruxes and the prophecy would give the power of those things into the hands of people who would misuse them. 

I don't believe Dumbledore thought the prophecy could make itself come true. I think its magic is to make itself believed. Like other forms of magical persuasion it could be resisted, but Dumbledore knows that most wizards wouldn't try. The certainty of knowledge, like a way of escaping death, would be too tempting.  

Dumbledore did not know that Sirius was going to be there. Sirius was meant to be in hiding as the secret keeper.  He wouldn't be easily found, but if Dumbledore knew where he was supposed to be and Sirius wasn't there, that would have looked even worse. 

I agree with Mike that it wasn't rash in principle to go after Pettigrew -- but to do so alone and without explaining? That was madness.


> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I absolutely can and as I said upthread this is part of the reason why I find the execution of such choice to be so unconvincing, because Dumbledore adds this "pampered prince" crap to his rhetoric.
> 
> First of all I do not know when Dumbledore says it that he is talking about his  own childhood, I took it to mean that the love and care of the wizarding family for him means raising Harry as pampered prince.

Pippin:
Is it crap  that kindness and care should be unconditional but  rewards and praise  go only to those who have earned them? 

IMO, Dumbledore (and JKR) think most children need some help learning to regulate their need for approval, just as they need some help learning to regulate their need for food. Praise and favors that he hasn't really earned have a sorry effect on Harry in HBP, just as Dumbledore feared they might, but at least it never became engrained.


Alla:
 And even if Dumbledore means his own childhood, um, no I do not think he was a pampered prince,

Pippin:
While his family struggled with wayward Aberforth and impaired Ariana, Dumbledore was left free to rack up up every prize of note that Hogwarts offered, and correspond with the most noted wizards of the day. Then, having reached adulthood,  he was going to take a year long trip around the world and pursue a brilliant career. Would anyone but a pampered prince think like that? 

Then, of course, Kendra died, and he found out what life was like for people who weren't being handed the moon on a platter.
 
He was planning to reverse the course of natural death and lead the WW in a revolution all so he could get out from having to care for his family. That's quite a sense of entitlement, don't you think?



> Alla:
> 
> Oh? And how do we know that three wizards that approached him meant no harm? Maybe at least one of them was Voldemort's spy and was trying to find ways to get closer to Harry?
> 

Pippin:
Living with a loving wizarding family wouldn't have prevented it. Quirrell approached Harry when he was with Hagrid as Carol already pointed out.

> Pippin:
> So how am I supposed to believe that any DE could have managed it, when Voldemort says so clearly that he himself could not? <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> If Voldemort was alive all this time by the way, that would have been another way to convince me of necessity of blood protection.

Pippin:
He returned to his body in GoF. Thanks to the blood protection, so he says, he never invaded Privet Drive. Meanwhile he or his forces penetrated Azkaban, the Ministry, the Burrow, Grimmauld Place and Hogwarts itself. 

> 
> Pippin:
> I have no comment on the Avatar series, except to say that it put me to sleep,but comparing what the readers know to what the characters know in a work of fiction is apples and oranges.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> LOL. Sorry, to each their own of course, I am just amused that I finally met the person whom Avatar put to sleep. But could you remind me where I was comparing what characters know to what readers know?

Pippin:
You are saying, if I may summarize your argument, that you cannot believe Dumbledore made a moral decision to place Harry at Privet Drive because you are not convinced that Harry was really in danger. 


But it seems to me that the morality of Dumbledore's decision can only be judged by whether *Dumbledore* thought Harry was really in danger. Since JKR makes it clear that Dumbledore's perspective is not shared by the reader, we can't judge his state of mind until we've shifted our perspective to match what we know about his.

Dumbledore had to live through ten years of Voldemort killing whoever he targets, at will.  JKR doesn't let us know directly what that's like, but it obviously colors what Dumbledore thinks he can and cannot do, and what Voldemort is likely to attempt. We  get a glimpse of Voldemort's certainty that no one can stop him as he bears down on Godric's Hollow.  


 I thought you were saying  that if JKR wanted us to think that Dumbledore had made a good choice she shouldn't have left us  any doubts remaining about his morality or she should have made the need for the blood protection more obvious. I don't see how she could have done that without making Dumbledore a more conventional character or the  blood protection weaker. 

 As Sun Tzu says, the best battle is the one you don't have to fight. Dumbledore never had to fight a battle for Privet Drive. Even when the DE's are nearby, Moody says they can't approach while the spell lasts. Since he says that from inside Privet Drive, it's clear from someone other than Dumbledore that  the blood protection magic knows the difference between Order members and Death Eaters. And as sad experience showed, no other spell had that power.

Pippin