CHAPDISC: PS/SS 1, The Boy Who Lived and Avatar SPOILERS LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 187785

Pippin:

Dumbledore never does anything of the kind, IMO. Your argument links two
conversations that take place 14 years and thousands of pages apart, in entirely
different contexts.

Alla:

Dumbledore never offers to McGonagall as justification for leaving Harry with Dursleys the argument that Harry will be better off with them, not spoiled as opposed to leaving him with **any** WW family which will definitely spoil Harry in Dumbledore's opinion?

We are reading different books then. And of course my argument links two conversations, because IMO the topic of these conversations is exactly the same, even if they are indeed happening 14 years apart. What does it matter how long apart they are?


Pippin:
McGonagall does not know how Harry is going to be treated at the Dursleys when
she argues with Dumbledore at Privet Drive. She's not a Muggle hater, she's not
going to think that the Dursleys are going to hate Harry just because he's a
wizard, and she knows nothing of the grudge Petunia bears for her sister. Vernon
is very careful not to mention it.

The worst she could have heard is that Petunia thinks "Harry" is a nasty common
name. That's not very nice, but it hardly means that Harry is going to be shut
in a cupboard or have the magic squashed out of him. As far as McGonagall
knows, Harry is at risk of being misunderstood, annoyed by his cousin, and
allowed to behave like Dudley, who kicks his mother all the way down the street,
screaming for sweets.

Alla:

I do not understand how what Minerva may or may not have learned about Dursleys changes the meaning of **Dumbledore"s** words.

Here is the canon:

"You don't mean – you can't mean the people who live here?" cried Professor McGonagall, jumping to her feet and pointing at number four. "Dumbledore – you can't. I've been watching them all day. You couldn't find two people who are less like us. And they've got this son – I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the street, screaming for sweets. Harry Potter come and live here!"
"It's the best place for him," said Dumbledore firmly. "His aunt and uncle will be able to explain everything to him when he's older. I've written them a letter."
"A letter?" repeated Professor McGonagall faintly, sitting back down on the wall. "Really, Dumbledore, you think you can explain all this in a letter? These people will never  understand him! He'll be famous – a legend- I wouldn't be surprised  if today was known as Harry Potter day in the future – there will be books written about Harry – every child in our world will know his name!"
"Exactly," said Dumbledore, looking very seriously over the top of his half-moon glasses. "It would be enough to turn any boy's head. Famous before he can walk and talk! Famous for something he can't even remember! Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it" – p.13

Alla:

**Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it"**. Sounds quite clear to me, that Dumbledore thinks that it is much better for Harry to grew up unspoiled with Dursleys than in the WW, even if WW family will love him as their own, and OMG may spoil him a little bit.

By the way, I do not agree with you that your inference IS necessarily what Minerva would have concluded, I mean, annoyed by his cousin? Minerva sees Dudley KICKING his mother and you think the conclusion that he may be **hitting** Harry just never entered her mind? And she was here before we readers saw her, so maybe she saw something even more damning (we obviously do not see it on page, but I think I can still speculate).

In any event, I think what Minerva thinks here is irrelevant because I find Dumbledore's response to her to be quite damning on its own.

Pippin:
Actually, Dumbledore knows there isn't much chance that the Dursleys are going
to spoil Harry, but the fact remains he certainly never implied to McGonagall
that it's okay to abuse a child to keep him from being spoiled. The question did
not arise.

Alla:

Exactly, Dumbledore knows how Dursleys will treat Harry or at least has pretty good idea about it and he **still** says that it will be better for him to grow up here not because it will save his life, but because it will turn his head. I think he does not just imply it here, I think he is loud and clear that abusing child is okay if it keeps him from being spoiled. In light of Dumbledore  having corresponding with Petunia, in light of Dumbledore being a neighbor to James and Lily, I think he knew very well what kind of relationship she had with her sister. And he still has a nerve to talk about being spoiled.

Pippin <SNIP>
Harry never heard this conversation, so he can't possibly have had it in mind
when Dumbledore refers, fourteen years later and hundreds of miles away, to "a
pampered little prince." The way I interpret it, Dumbledore considers Harry
normal, in implied contrast to children who might seem to have had a softer
life, but came out the worse for it. Harry would think of Draco and Dudley. I've
explained why I think Dumbledore was thinking of himself.

But that does not imply that those children would have been better off if
they'd been brought up by the Dursleys, or that the abuse Harry suffered was
necessary in order to keep him from turning out like them.

Alla:

And the way I interpret it, Dumbledore offers "not a pampered prince" as justification to himself, that he was **right** to leave Harry with Dursleys. He does not need to imply that loving homes are bad for children in order for me to see it, all he needs is to say that **abusive** home is good for a child and I think in that conversation he is again loud and clear that "not a pampered prince" was a good reason to leave Harry there. He considers Harry normal because he did not grew up a pampered prince. God I want to strangle the bastard every time I read that speech.

Pippin:
If Dumbledore thought that loving homes were bad for children or that they had
to be deprived of them to make sure they'd only be loyal to him, he would never
have trusted Ron and Hermione so much. <SNIP>

Alla:

LOL,  I am not talking about Dumbledore thinking that loving homes are bad for children in general, I am talking about Dumbledore thinking and doing everything in his power to prevent **one** child from going to loving home. This child will be Harry, not Ron or Hermione.

And of course Dumbledore would have trusted their **loyalty to Harry**.  How does their homes come into play, I do not even know.


The way I see it is incredibly simple, really. If Dumbledore did not think that one of the reasons for leaving Harry with Dursleys will be to make sure he is not spoiled (whatever that means in Dumbledore's twisted mind), he would not have said it.

He does not just say it, he repeats it fourteen years later. And  I think it is quite clear that he means it.

That again goes back to me arguing that I needed to see blood protection in more details and I needed the writer to tell me that NO, nothing else mattered for Dumbledore when he made the determination to leave Harry there.

Writer (IMO) is loud and clear that something else did matter and I find such reason disgusting.

JMO,

Alla