From puduhepa98 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 03:28:26 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 03:28:26 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Ch. 13: The Very Secret Diary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189095 > Carol: > > I'm just curious as to whether anyone besides me wondered how Tom proved to the headmaster and the Ministry that Hagrid had a monster. After all, the monster in question escaped. (I understand why they would have assumed that the monster was responsible for Myrtle's death--two monsters in the castle at the same time would have been inconceivable for anyone except Dumbledore, who obviously couldn't prove Hagrid's innocence and Riddle's guilt or he would have done so.) But was it only Tom's word against Hagrid's or did Hagrid admit to having a monster and just blurt out, "Aragog wouldn't hurt nobody?" > >Nikkalmati From puduhepa98 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 03:31:38 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 03:31:38 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Ch. 13: The Very Secret Diary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189096 > Carol: > > I'm just curious as to whether anyone besides me wondered how Tom proved to the headmaster and the Ministry that Hagrid had a monster. After all, the monster in question escaped. (I understand why they would have assumed that the monster was responsible for Myrtle's death--two monsters in the castle at the same time would have been inconceivable for anyone except Dumbledore, who obviously couldn't prove Hagrid's innocence and Riddle's guilt or he would have done so.) But was it only Tom's word against Hagrid's or did Hagrid admit to having a monster and just blurt out, "Aragog wouldn't hurt nobody?" > > Nikkalmati I suspect you have the answer. Hagrid would never think of lying or concealing the truth if he were asked. His honesty is what makes him unable to keep a secret. Nikkalmati (who jumped the gun again) From puduhepa98 at aol.com Thu Apr 1 03:47:04 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 03:47:04 -0000 Subject: Chapdisc Cos 12/ Dumbledore and Legilimency In-Reply-To: <980220.35629.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lui wrote: > > > > justcarol67 wrote: > > I'm not so sure that DD used Occlumency on Harry though he often gives Harry the sense that he's being X-rayed and certainly subjects both Harry and Tom Riddle to a searching glance (which could as easily be a means of detecting through facial expressions and other signs whether a student is lying). > > Bart: > Probably, like all skills and talents, there are varying levels of > ability in Occlumancy, Prof. Dumbledore probably has some degree of > Occlumancy ability, but not up to the level of Morty or Sevvy. > > luirhys: you must be confusing occlumency with legilimency. > > "Legilimency is the magical skill of extracting feelings and memories from another person's mind- > > The counter-skill to Legilimency is Occlumency (and its user, known as an Occlumens), > by which one can compartmentalise one's emotions, or prevent a > Legilimens from discovering thoughts or memories which contradict one's > spoken words or actions."I'm pretty sure that DD and Snape employ both abilities on a regular basis. Being very powerful wizards, they could easily do this without the recipient knowing. It was even said in that Dumbledore didn't need a cloak to become invisible, and has a disillusionment charm so strong that he could become invisible. > > This makes it plain that their abilities must be so advanced that their "victims" do not suspect anything. > > In the case of Harry and Riddle, DD might have read their minds but decided not to say anything. We all know he stresses on 'individual choice.' > > > _ > > Nikkalmati I know it is a popular opinion, but I have never seen anything in canon that convinces me that anyone can perform legilimancy without the other person knowing about it. Snape is suppposed to be very good, but both times he ligilimizes Harry, Harry sees in his own mind exactly what Snape sees. Voldemort may never have felt the need to develop Occlumancy. Who is going to attempt to look into his mind? That might explain why he does not recognize it when Snape uses it against him. We assume DD can do both skills, because he is an old and powerful wizard, but we never are privy to his using either one. I agree that he can, and possibly taught Snape after Snape became his spy. Nikkalmati From bart at moosewise.com Thu Apr 1 05:02:36 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 01:02:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapdisc Cos 12 In-Reply-To: <373619.98181.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4BB2AB06.4000803@moosewise.com> <373619.98181.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BB428EC.8@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189098 On 3/30/2010 10:00 PM, lui wrote: > luirhys: Is this about Lily? I don't think she was ASHAMED > of Snape being his friend, going as far as defending him > from the Marauders. It was actually Snape who ultimately > pushed her away, as we can see in HBP, by calling her a > 'mudblood'. > True, he pushed her away. But there were implications that their friendship wasn't all that open, not the least of which being Snape's reaction when she defended him, and the lack of recognition of their friendship on the part of Potter, Lupin, and Black when she defended him. Bart From alcuin74 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 1 04:38:09 2010 From: alcuin74 at yahoo.com (alcuin74 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapdisc Cos 12/ Dumbledore and Legilimency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <766810.23108.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189099 Nikkalmati: > We assume DD can do both skills, because he is an old and > powerful wizard, but we never are privy to his using either > one. I agree that he can, and possibly taught Snape after > Snape became his spy. Alcuin74: We can do more than just assume. DD tells us he's an accomplished Legilimens and used that skill on Kreacher: "He [Kreacher] did not wish to tell me. But I am a sufficiently accomplished Legilimens myself to know when I am being lied to and I -- persuaded him -- to tell me the full story before I left for the Department of Mysteries." (OotP 832, American ed.) He also goes on to say that he should have taught Harry Occlumency instead of Snape (ibid. 833). Hence, DD knows both Occlumency and Legilimency. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 13:13:25 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:13:25 -0000 Subject: JKR has new book ready! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189100 Potioncat here--JKR and her publisher have just released a statement that her new book will be coming out soon. They're arranging a public event in which the title and book cover will be revealed. The article didn't say if this is a Harry Potter title or something new. But isn't this cool! You can read it yourself at www.bloomsbury/myfoot/Aprilsfools.com From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Apr 1 20:08:56 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:08:56 -0000 Subject: JKR has nee book ready! - yeah yeah... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189101 Geoff: It would be a better April Fool if those words did not appear in the URL and somebody had a spoof page at the location.... :-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Apr 1 22:44:11 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 22:44:11 -0000 Subject: JKR has nee book ready! - yeah yeah... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189102 > > Geoff: > It would be a better April Fool if those words did not appear > in the URL and somebody had a spoof page at the location.... > :-) > Hey...do I look like I'm that computer savvy? At least I pulled off an April Fools' joke! From puduhepa98 at aol.com Fri Apr 2 03:21:37 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 03:21:37 -0000 Subject: Chapdisc Cos 12/ Dumbledore and Legilimency In-Reply-To: <766810.23108.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alcuin74 at ..." wrote: > > Nikkalmati: > > We assume DD can do both skills, because he is an old and > > powerful wizard, but we never are privy to his using either > > one. I agree that he can, and possibly taught Snape after > > Snape became his spy. > > > Alcuin74: > > We can do more than just assume. DD tells us he's an accomplished Legilimens and used that skill on Kreacher: > > "He [Kreacher] did not wish to tell me. But I am a sufficiently accomplished Legilimens myself to know when I am being lied to and I -- persuaded him -- to tell me the full story before I left for the Department of Mysteries." (OotP 832, American ed.) > > He also goes on to say that he should have taught Harry Occlumency instead of Snape (ibid. 833). Hence, DD knows both Occlumency and Legilimency. > Nikkalmati This is why I love this list. Somebody always knows. You are quite correct on both points. So this will be a substantive post, I will observe that no one was at headquarters to tell DD why he had been summoned there. Everyone had gone to the DOM, Sirius having refused to follow Snape's instruction to stay and give the information to DD. I wonder if DD would have let Sirius come along? Snape of course was at Hogwarts. I can't see how DD could have taught Harry, because LV was looking through Harry's eyes in DD's office and controlling his emotions. It would havwe been dangerous. Nikkalmati From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Apr 2 06:32:06 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:32:06 -0000 Subject: JKR has nee book ready! - yeah yeah... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Geoff: > > It would be a better April Fool if those words did not appear > > in the URL and somebody had a spoof page at the location.... > > :-) Potioncat: > Hey...do I look like I'm that computer savvy? At least I pulled off an April Fools' joke! Geoff: But it landed with UK members after midday which in our tradition means it backfires on you. :-)) From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Apr 2 11:36:37 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:36:37 -0000 Subject: JKR has nee book ready! - yeah yeah... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189105 > Geoff: > But it landed with UK members after midday which in our tradition > means it backfires on you. > :-)) > Potioncat: So we'd have to get up pretty early to pull one over on you chaps? Considering which list this is, and that it's no longer April 1 anywhere, I suppose I should add something canon related. We're all reading CoS, I'll go with: Happy belated birthday Weasley twins. From sweenlit at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 14:30:07 2010 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:30:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Attraction to Ginny? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189106 Well, starting with DH, I can see why you would think so, and some people reading my response there well say that she is a bland character, compared to the other women anyway. I think, however, that possibly that is exactly why Harry fell for her. She is tough, though and can hold her own in any given situation. As for Harry, he always wanted a normal life. With Ginny he will have more of that than he would have with some of the other characters. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sweenlit at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 14:37:23 2010 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:37:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Attraction to Ginny? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189107 Cat: I was appalled at reading your post...the fact that you did and then even admitted to reading DH first! My opinion is that you have really cheated yourself of a grand adventure! You MISSED SO MUCH!!!!! Among the many elements of Harry's world and adventures, the evolution of the Harry+Ginny relationship! There are subtle hints through out the entire series!(It was very noticeable to me beginning in Chamber of Secrets) Just as 1 example: The one thing that Harry never had, and always wanted, in his life was "loving stability" ... don't you think that might describe Ginny, just a bit? .... I am sorry you missed soooooo much!!!! > :-( ------------ Lynda: I've often read series books out of sequence. Sometimes I simply cannot find the first book so will read one of the others. It does indeed have it's own pleasures. I would encourage the poster who started this thread to read the remainder of the series, though. Lynda > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 3 02:30:21 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 02:30:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's Attraction to Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "senatorabner" wrote: > did Harry and Ginny 'go all the way?' zanooda: When Ginny invited Harry to her room at the beginning of DH and kissed him, he thought that "she was kissing him as she had never kissed him before" (p.116). This comment makes me think that this was the first time Ginny *really* kissed Harry, you know, with the promise of more :-). What they did at Hogwarts was quite innocent, I believe :-). From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 3 02:41:48 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 02:41:48 -0000 Subject: Chapdisc Cos 12 In-Reply-To: <373619.98181.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lui wrote: > Is this about Lily? I don't think she was ASHAMED > of Snape being his friend, going as far as defending him > from the Marauders. zanooda: She didn't defend him the way you defend a close friend though. She defended him the way you defend someone you barely know or maybe don't know at all. If Hermione saw Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle attack Harry (or Ron) and do to him what James and Sirius did to Severus, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't negotiate with them. She would hit them with some good spells and free her friend without much talk :-). From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Apr 3 11:53:46 2010 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 11:53:46 -0000 Subject: Chapdisc Cos 12 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lui wrote: > > > Is this about Lily? I don't think she was ASHAMED > > of Snape being his friend, going as far as defending him > > from the Marauders. > > > zanooda: > > She didn't defend him the way you defend a close friend though. She defended him the way you defend someone you barely know or maybe don't know at all. If Hermione saw Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle attack Harry (or Ron) and do to him what James and Sirius did to Severus, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't negotiate with them. She would hit them with some good spells and free her friend without much talk :-). > Annemehr: Nor would she be smirking at it first, until she thought maybe things had gone *too* far. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Apr 3 17:55:13 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 3 Apr 2010 17:55:13 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 4/4/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1270317313.500.38557.m14@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189111 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday April 4, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 4 16:59:38 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 4 Apr 2010 16:59:38 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 4/4/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1270400378.107.8347.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189112 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday April 4, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From catlady at wicca.net Sun Apr 4 22:04:36 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 22:04:36 -0000 Subject: The Diary, Harry and Ginny, Sevvie and Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189113 ElfunDeb summarized CoS Chapter 13 in : << Harry finds himself drawn to the diary, often flipping through its empty pages with the unexplainable sense that T.M. Riddle is familiar to him. >> I believe that the name T.M.Riddle was not actually familiar to Harry from the soul bit, but that it seemed familiar was part of a spell on the diary, a spell to attract a Parselmouth. Because Riddle had originally created the diary with the the memory in it to help some future person to continue Salazar Slytherin's project of releasing the basilisk to kill Muggle-born students, and the future person would have to be a Parselmouth in order to open the Chamber. I really think this is a leftover parallel with HBP: I believe that the Prince also put a spell on his book, a spell that would repulse most people who looked into it (repelling Hermione by giving her a very low opinion of its ethics and safety and repelling Ron by being illegible to him) but would welcome Lily's eyes - a plot point where it was important that Harry had Lily's eyes. << 5. Do you think Riddle's memory is part and parcel of his soul bit, or is it a separate enchantment, like the curses on some of the other horcruxes? Why did he incorporate this feature into a horcrux and not simply create a separate memorial? >> Having just stated my opinion that Riddle put that memory (and its associated attraction spell) into that diary long before he learned how to make a Horcrux, I believe that the reason why he later turned the enchanted diary into his first Horcrux is that it was a deeply meaningful object to him, containing his discovery that he was the Heir of Slytherin and containing his first murder, and who knows what else. In this thread, Janelle wrote in : << I think that the memories in the diary are separate from the Horcrux, however, I think that the memories would have stayed within the pages of the diary without that soul bit. >> Oh, yes. I didn't think of that while writing my above. << For Valentine's Day, Professor Lockhart enlists dwarves to dress up as Cupids and deliver valentines. >> Is this the only time we encounter Dwarves in canon? << 2. What do you think is the source of Lockhart's appeal to women and girls? Is it his looks and charm, or is there magic involved? Do you think he's capable of one of Flitwick's Entrancement Enchantments? >> I believe that part of what attracts women to Lockhart is magic, but not a spell he did. While he could have had someone else cast a spell on him or he could have used a purchased potion, I prefer to believe that it is innate Veela magic -- I can believe his mother was a Veela if I want to. His appeal is *not* just to women and girls; it is also to Justin Finch-Fletchley, whose comment on having read Lockhart's books was "Awfully brave chap. Have you read his books? I'd have died of fear if Id been cornered in a telephone booth by a werewolf, but he stayed cool and - zap - just fantastic." I prefer to understand this as evidence that Justin is going to be gay when he grows up and therefore is susceptible to Lockhart's flavor of Veela magic. Maybe it's pheromones. Attraction is a big theme in this pair of books (CoS and HBP), isn't it? Harry is attracted to TMR's diary and the HBP's textbook; many women and girls and Justin are attracted to Lockhart, and TMR is very charming so that Harry automatically likes him, and he outright commented that he could always charm the people he needed except Dumbledore. I'm sure that's a small-c charmed, meaning people like him because of his manners, rather than a large-C Charmed, meaning he cast some kind of Love Spell (Like Spell? Trust Spell?) on everyone he met. Megan asked in : << The only question I have is why Hogwarts still had Tom Riddle's trophy? Did they just never get rid of anything in the trophy room? >> Somewhere Dumbledore said that very few people knew that Voldemort had formerly been Tom Riddle. So very few people would have had a reason for removing Tom Riddle's trophy. Lee wrote in : << did Harry and Ginny 'go all the way?' There are a few lines in HBP that refer to 'special walks by the lake' [paraphrasing here). I've often wondered about that....>> And Zanooda replied in : << When Ginny invited Harry to her room at the beginning of DH and kissed him, he thought that "she was kissing him as she had never kissed him before" (p.116). This comment makes me think that this was the first time Ginny *really* kissed Harry, you know, with the promise of more :-). What they did at Hogwarts was quite innocent, I believe :-). >> Complete agreement. I had gone to the trouble of find and typing that quote before I reached your post. She had clearly made up her mind (and was pushing through her nervousness) to (as she phrased it in terms of a birthday present) give him her virginity, and take his. I suppose she got the idea from reading too many adventure books in which the young hero "becomes a man" (digression by continuing to quote the Neil Young lyric "at the hands of a girl twice my age", which I have always found completely ridiculous, because it wasn't her *hands*, and if having sex made him a 'man' why didn't it make her a 'woman'?) as a gift from, not from his virginal girlfriend, from a confident and sexually experienced slightly older beauty, who 'knows' he needs this additional self-confidence to survive his adventures. If Ron hadn't come in the room and interrupted, that listie who insisted that Harry would die to save the wizarding world from Voldemort but would leave a son, Harry Potter Jr, who looked just like him but without the scar, might have gotten his wish. Bart wrote in : << True, he pushed her away. But there were implications that their friendship wasn't all that open, not the least of which being Snape's reaction when she defended him, and the lack of recognition of their friendship on the part of Potter, Lupin, and Black when she defended him. >> Yes, but how much of that was Rowling's need to keep the readers and Harry from knowing that Severus and Lily had been childhood friends? From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 5 08:20:07 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 08:20:07 -0000 Subject: Severus and Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189114 Catlady wrote: > Bart wrote in : > > << True, he pushed her away. But there were implications that their friendship wasn't all that open, not the least of which being Snape's reaction when she defended him, and the lack of recognition of their friendship on the part of Potter, Lupin, and Black when she defended him. >> > > Yes, but how much of that was Rowling's need to keep the readers and Harry from knowing that Severus and Lily had been childhood friends? --- In HPforGrownups@ yahoogroups. com, lui wrote: > Is this about Lily? I don't think she was ASHAMED > of Snape being his friend, going as far as defending him > from the Marauders. zanooda wrote: >She didn't defend him the way you defend a close friend though. She >defended him the way you defend someone you barely know or maybe >don't know at all. If Hermione saw Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle attack >Harry (or Ron) and do to him what James and Sirius did to Severus, >I'm pretty sure she wouldn't negotiate with them. She would hit them >with some good spells and free her friend without much talk :-). Joey: I agree that Rowling's need to keep the readers and Harry from knowing that Severus and Lily had been childhood friends must have been pretty intense when writing the SWM chapter of OoTP. Also, I agree with Zanooda's observation regarding what Lily's defence of Snape seemed like and Bart's observation regarding what Snape's reaction to her defence seemed like. Yet in The Prince's Tale chapter of DH, when I read the conversation between Lily and Snape (post the "Mudblood" incident that we see in SWM chapter), Lily *did* sound *fed up* with Snape in terms of his Death Eater friends and ambitions. This seems to indicate that they might have had *many* bitter / heated arguments in the past and that their friendship was already on the *verge* of breaking. Snape calling her "Mudblood" seems to have been the *last straw* for Lily. I guess that is why their reactions during the SWM incident looked out of character for a strong friendship. Cheers, ~Joey :-) From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 5 23:50:40 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:50:40 -0000 Subject: Severus and Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189115 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joey Smiley" wrote: > they might have had *many* bitter / heated arguments in the past and > that their friendship was already on the *verge* of breaking. zanooda: Yes, this is exactly my point: at that time Severus and Lily were not as good friends as they claimed to be ("best friends", oh, please :-)). They were obviously best friends before Hogwarts, but then, as they were sorted into different Houses, they started to drift away from each other. Each one got a different set of friends, different interests etc. By the time of SWM she called him "best friend" just out of habit, and he clung to the "best friend" excuse, knowing that their childhood friendship was the only way for him to stay close to her. Just look at their conversation in "The Prince's Tale" before SWM: Lily automatically sides with James, without even asking for Severus's version of events ("You are being ungrateful! He saved you!" etc.). And to think about it, is it the way you talk to your supposedly best friend when you meet him for the first time after finding out that he was nearly killed? Wouldn't you rather say: "OMG, I heard what had happened! Are you all right? Tell me everything!" Lily is not even interested... Please understand me correctly, I'm not blaming her or anything, I know perfectly well why she did what she did. I just want to say that Lily *already* was not Severus's best friend at the time she ended their relationship. I would say they were friendly, but not real friends :-). From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 6 00:03:57 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 00:03:57 -0000 Subject: The Diary, Harry and Ginny, Sevvie and Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" wrote: > She had clearly made up her mind (and was pushing through her > nervousness) to (as she phrased it in terms of a birthday > present) give him her virginity zanooda: I see what you mean, considering she wanted to give him, as she said, "something to remember me by" :-). However, I'm not sure she intended to go "all the way" with people in the house, with her nosy mother at home and all that :-). Maybe she just wanted him to remember her by this "adult" kiss :-)? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 6 00:14:46 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 00:14:46 -0000 Subject: The Diary, Harry and Ginny, Sevvie and Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189117 Catlady wrote: > I believe that the name T.M.Riddle was not actually familiar to Harry from the soul bit, but that it seemed familiar was part of a spell on the diary, a spell to attract a Parselmouth. Because Riddle had originally created the diary with the the memory in it to help some future person to continue Salazar Slytherin's project of releasing the basilisk to kill Muggle-born students, and the future person would have to be a Parselmouth in order to open the Chamber. Carol responds: That's possible. However, Ginny was no Parselmouth before or after she was possessed, yet it also attracted her, so maybe the original spell just made the reader want to confide in it or write in it or interact with it in some way. Possibly, all he wanted at first was for someone to see the memories that proved he was the Heir of Slytherin. Harry, too, was attracted to the diary in the sense that he wanted to find out what it did; he didn't want to throw it away (unlike Ron, who as far as I know never touched it). I used to think that the diarist could interact with Memory Tom even before the soulbit was placed in the Horcrux, but apparently not. The soulbit was required to make it truly interactive by possessing the diarist and causing him (or more likely, her) to open the Chamber. It's interesting, BTW, that Lucius chose Ginny Weasley to give the diary rather than one of her brothers. Possibly, Voldemort had told him to choose a young girl when the time came--or Lucius figured out himself that a girl would be more likely than a boy to use a diary. Catlady: > I really think this is a leftover parallel with HBP: I believe that the Prince also put a spell on his book, a spell that would repulse most people who looked into it (repelling Hermione by giving her a very low opinion of its ethics and safety and repelling Ron by being illegible to him) but would welcome Lily's eyes - a plot point where it was important that Harry had Lily's eyes. Carol responds: Maybe, but we never get any confirmation of that idea. I think it's totally in character for Hermione to distrust the book and consider it cheating to use someone else's helpful hints (especially letting the teacher think that *he* was the Potions genius) and for Ron, who is not at all averse to cheating, to be too lazy to decipher the handwriting. Harry, in contrast, is at first annoyed and then intrigued. (He, too, has trouble reading the minuscule writing at first, IIRC). Catlady: > Having just stated my opinion that Riddle put that memory (and its associated attraction spell) into that diary long before he learned how to make a Horcrux, I believe that the reason why he later turned the enchanted diary into his first Horcrux is that it was a deeply meaningful object to him, containing his discovery that he was the Heir of Slytherin and containing his first murder, and who knows what else. > Carol: This part I agree with completely. It also fits with DD's remark that the diary was important to Tom because it proved that he was the Heir of Slytherin--as it must have done *before* he made it a Horcrux. Why buy it in the first place if not to record a set of (to him) very special memories? But whether the idea of having an interactive diary that would help to "carry on Salazar Slytherin's great work" by opening the chamber and killing Muggleborns came before the idea of making the diary a Horcrux or was part and parcel of that idea, I can't say. (The diary's workings were a lot clearer to me, or so I thought, before the Horcrux idea muddled things up.) Carol, who still hates the Horcruxes--and, for that matter, the Hallows (especially the Elder Wand) From bart at moosewise.com Tue Apr 6 00:39:26 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:39:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Diary, Harry and Ginny, Sevvie and Lily In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBA82BE.5010802@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" wrote: > >> She had clearly made up her mind (and was pushing through her >> nervousness) to (as she phrased it in terms of a birthday >> present) give him her virginity >> > zanooda: > > I see what you mean, considering she wanted to give him, as she said, "something to remember me by" :-). However, I'm not sure she intended to go "all the way" with people in the house, with her nosy mother at home and all that :-). Maybe she just wanted him to remember her by this "adult" kiss :-)? > Bart: As I stated in a previous conversation about sex in the Potterverse, there is a reason for the shrinking population of pureblood wizards. Bart From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Tue Apr 6 18:44:30 2010 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:44:30 -0000 Subject: The Diary, Harry and Ginny, Sevvie and Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189119 Catlady: > > She had clearly made up her mind (and was pushing through her > > nervousness) to (as she phrased it in terms of a birthday > > present) give him her virginity > > zanooda: > > I see what you mean, considering she wanted to give him, as she said, "something to remember me by" :-). However, I'm not sure she intended to go "all the way" with people in the house, with her nosy mother at home and all that :-). Maybe she just wanted him to remember her by this "adult" kiss :-)? Magpie: Yeah, I really don't think that if her plan was for sex, this would have been how she went about it, pulling him into her bedroom for a quickly hoping nobody walked in. If she wanted to sleep with him she would have planned a time to actually do it, surely. This seemed more like just a make out session going as far as it might have gone. -m From senatorabner at yahoo.com Tue Apr 6 20:59:30 2010 From: senatorabner at yahoo.com (Abner Wilner) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's Attraction to Ginny Going all the way Message-ID: <249547.56395.qm@web43136.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189120 SENDER wrote: "When Ginny invited Harry to her room at the beginning of DH and References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189121 On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 7:30 PM, zanooda2 wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com , > "senatorabner" wrote: > > > did Harry and Ginny 'go all the way?' > > Lynda: The answer to this question lies within the imagination of each reader. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alcuin74 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 7 19:48:35 2010 From: alcuin74 at yahoo.com (alcuin74 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Attraction to Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <298642.39987.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189122 > "senatorabner" wrote: > > > did Harry and Ginny 'go all the way?' Alcuin: ? Unless my memory is failing me, they obviously didn't. Ron interrupted them just as they kissed and got mad at Harry because he was supposed to have already broken up with her. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From senatorabner at yahoo.com Fri Apr 9 14:37:13 2010 From: senatorabner at yahoo.com (Abner Wilner) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 07:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: harry and ginny Message-ID: <638793.60753.qm@web43131.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189123 Alcuin: >Unless my memory is failing me, they obviously didn't. Ron > interrupted them just as they kissed and got mad at Harry > because he was supposed to have already broken up with her. Abner: Your memory does not fail you :) I was referring to a line in HBP, in which Harry reflects back on certain special moments by the lake. I stated this in my original post. :) But I agree that the answer lies in the reader's imagination. I joined this forum hoping to have friendly, thoughtful conversation about our impressions of the book. I am interested in hearing other peoples' interpretations. Instead, I am receiving rather sarcastic replies questioning why I even ask the question. Is there a section in this forum I can refer to... which lists questions not to ask? That might help as I try to ease my way into a long-established Yahoo group. Abner From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Apr 9 22:38:07 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:38:07 -0000 Subject: harry and ginny In-Reply-To: <638793.60753.qm@web43131.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Abner Wilner wrote: Abner: > I joined this forum hoping to have friendly, thoughtful conversation about our impressions of the book. I am interested in hearing other peoples' interpretations. Instead, I am receiving rather sarcastic replies questioning why I even ask the question. > > Is there a section in this forum I can refer to... which lists questions not to ask? That might help as I try to ease my way into a long-established Yahoo group. Geoff: Don't worry. There are many of us who join in friendly, thoughtful conversation. You've obviously hit the wrong people or caught them on a bad hair day. :-) Hang in there. From sweenlit at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 05:57:46 2010 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:57:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: harry and ginny In-Reply-To: References: <638793.60753.qm@web43131.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189125 Lynda: I had no wish to be sarcastic. I am a fan of individual interpretation and imagination. It's one of the reasons I read. Books allow people to think and to create stories that go beyond what is written in the text itself and I love that. I do not always appreciate that it sometimes seems that some readers want everything written down for them. The joy of reading for me is what I see beyond what the author wrote. My answer for the question of Harry and Ginny going all the way--while Harry was still at school is it doesn't seem likely from the later story, but others may have a different opinion. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 10 16:52:19 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:52:19 -0000 Subject: harry and ginny In-Reply-To: <638793.60753.qm@web43131.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Abner Wilner wrote: > Is there a section in this forum I can refer to... which > lists questions not to ask? LOL! You can ask any question you want, without any restrictions :-). I don't visit often lately, but when I'm here, I'll answer any question you might have. As for Harry and Ginny, I can add to my previous argument ("like she never kissed him before") that Harry doesn't seem like someone who would treat such a thing casually, and I think we would have seen more of an impact in the text if they indeed had sex in HBP. I mean, the boy was practically in shock after kissing Cho :-)! But I agree that, as there is no direct statement in the canon, everyone is free to think whatever he/she wants :-). zanooda From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Apr 10 17:55:09 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 10 Apr 2010 17:55:09 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 4/11/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1270922109.488.76861.m14@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189127 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday April 11, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Apr 11 04:19:30 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 04:19:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Power / Serpensortia / Crouch Sr / Parselmouth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" wrote: > > > Dumbledore -- not just Dumbledore, any Minister of Magic -- should appoint at least one trustworthy honest brave intelligent friend to tell him when he's being "irresponsible". > > For Albus, Aberforth would be ideal for that job. Pippin: How would Aberforth know what position on "the great wizarding issues of the day" was the responsible one? He never cared. By his own account, he only tried to stop Albus and Grindelwald because they proposed to involve Ariana. The trouble with advice from friends in general is that friends generally share the same blind spots and prejudices. None of Draco's friends tell him it would be a bad idea to get involved with Voldemort, and I suppose Lucius's friends were the same. Catlady: > Fudge also should have had and listened to such a person, someone to tell him that his campaign of slander and libel against Dumbledore and Harry was ungentlemanly. Instead he listened to Lucius Malfoy. Pippin: Actually, I think Fudge did have such a person of his own choosing for much of his career: Albus Dumbledore. Albus may have refused the minister's position but he was hardly uninvolved. Fudge was sending him two or three owls a day, according to Hagrid. Now that I know how Dumbledore operates, I can't think quite as harshly of Fudge for turning against him as I used to. There's canon that Fudge shared Harry's illusion that everything would be okay as long as Dumbledore was there. Fudge knew he'd be outmatched if Voldemort returned, but he expected Dumbledore to have a plan. And Dumbledore did -- but the plan was for Fudge to commit political suicide. Knowing Dumbledore, I doubt that he let Fudge know how much would be expected of him. Pippin From sweenlit at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 07:31:18 2010 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 00:31:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore & Power / Serpensortia / Crouch Sr / Parselmouth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189129 Pippin: How would Aberforth know what position on "the great wizarding issues of the day" was the responsible one? He never cared. By his own account, he only tried to stop Albus and Grindelwald because they proposed to involve Ariana. The trouble with advice from friends in general is that friends generally share the same blind spots and prejudices. None of Draco's friends tell him it would be a bad idea to get involved with Voldemort, and I suppose Lucius's friends were the same. Lynda: Sometimes people who "don't know" something simply choose not to become involved. Aberforth did not care about "the great wizarding issues of the day" and so did not become involved until his brother started to consider involving Ariana, but that does not mean he did not have an inkling about what was happening. Certainly as an adult he chose a profession in which knowledge of what people were involved in and thinking about was going to come his way. He even promotes certain aspects of it by allowing back alley deals of all sorts in his pub, and then again by allowing the pub to become a doorway to and from Hogwarts when he passivily does not stop the students coming through for food and even abets their behavior. Nope. He didn't lack knowledge. He simply made decisions to stay as out of things as much as possible. As for your comment on advice from friends: you're right to an extent, but no one is going to agree with you all the time, friend or not, and some of your friends might even disagree with you on key philosophical points. This is a good thing, unless you want to go through life without learning the value of opinions and judgments other than yours, which is always shortsighted. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 11 16:59:01 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 Apr 2010 16:59:01 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 4/11/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1271005141.528.56354.m11@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189130 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday April 11, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From catlady at wicca.net Mon Apr 12 02:33:55 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 02:33:55 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189131 Pippin wrote in : << Now that I know how Dumbledore operates, I can't think quite as harshly of Fudge for turning against him as I used to. There's canon that Fudge shared Harry's illusion that everything would be okay as long as Dumbledore was there. Fudge knew he'd be outmatched if Voldemort returned, but he expected Dumbledore to have a plan. And Dumbledore did -- but the plan was for Fudge to commit political suicide. Knowing Dumbledore, I doubt that he let Fudge know how much would be expected of him. >> ??? Do you mean it would be Fudge's political suicide just to announce that Voldemort had returned??? Did Dumbledore even really want to inform the public that Voldemort had returned? Did DD advise Fudge to do something to help the public defend themselves? Was Dumbledore's plan only to protect Harry until DD and Harry had destroyed six intentional Horcruxes without anyone else's help, and then send Harry to die in the act of killing Voldemort, or did it include something to keep the Dark Lord from slaughtering people in mass quantities? DD planned for poor Severus to kill him to get in good with the Dark Lord and become the Dark Lord's Headmaster of Hogwarts to protect the students, so it does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over Hogwarts. It does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over the Ministry. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Apr 12 13:52:33 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:52:33 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189132 Catlady: > > DD planned for poor Severus to kill him to get in good with the Dark Lord and become the Dark Lord's Headmaster of Hogwarts to protect the students, so it does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over Hogwarts. It does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over the Ministry. Potioncat: This is one of the reasons I think DD did believe in the prophecy. He certainly behaves as if he thinks there is one person who can defeat LV and that one person isn't him (DD). All his actions seem to be for the purpose of protecting Harry or of minimizing LV's power where he can. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Apr 12 22:45:14 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:45:14 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" wrote: > > Pippin wrote in : > > << Now that I know how Dumbledore operates, I can't think quite as harshly of Fudge for turning against him as I used to. There's canon that Fudge shared Harry's illusion that everything would be okay as long as Dumbledore was there. Fudge knew he'd be outmatched if Voldemort returned, but he expected Dumbledore to have a plan. > > And Dumbledore did -- but the plan was for Fudge to commit political suicide. Knowing Dumbledore, I doubt that he let Fudge know how much would be expected of him. >> Catlady: > ??? Do you mean it would be Fudge's political suicide just to announce that Voldemort had returned??? Pippin: No, it would have been political suicide to announce that in reponse to Voldemorts' return he was dismissing the dementors from Azkaban and sending envoys to the giants as Dumbledore asked. Dumbledore acknowledges as much. But those steps would have helped the Ministry and the public to defend themselves. Imagine if Bella and her cohorts had never escaped. Imagine if Hagrid had gone to the giants as a ministry representative, allowed to travel openly and quickly, and able to call in backup if needed. The DE's sent to the Giants might have been arrested (or maybe eaten) instead of being able to instigate a coup. As Dumbledore says, Fudge would have been remembered as a great minister of magic, in or out of office, if he'd been willing to take those steps. But I'm sure to Fudge it felt like he had been kept in office only so that he could be forced out at the right moment. And if Dumbledore was capable of such a cruel hoax, then why shouldn't the return of Voldemort be a hoax as well? Fudge isn't altogether wrong to believe Rita. There *was* something seriously wrong inside Harry's head, and Dumbledore was exploiting it. When Rita bothers to do actual research instead of letting the QQQ make things up, she's a pretty good newshound. Catlady: > DD planned for poor Severus to kill him to get in good with the Dark Lord and become the Dark Lord's Headmaster of Hogwarts to protect the students, so it does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over Hogwarts. It does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over the Ministry. > Pippin: I think Dumbledore saw little hope of defending the Ministry or Hogwarts if Fudge refused to take the steps he advised. If Dumbledore had been Minister, he would certainly have been able to send the envoys and dismiss the dementors. But then he too would have faced demands that he step down, and I think Dumbledore was afraid that he wouldn't have been any more willing to relinquish the office than Fudge was. Pippin From technomad at intergate.com Tue Apr 13 04:52:14 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:52:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100412235214.yqkyc4s4ggkwc0ss@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189134 Quoting pippin_999 : > > Pippin: > No, it would have been political suicide to announce that in reponse > to Voldemorts' return he was dismissing the dementors from Azkaban > and sending envoys to the giants as Dumbledore asked. Dumbledore > acknowledges as much. But those steps would have helped the Ministry > and the public to defend themselves. > > Imagine if Bella and her cohorts had never escaped. Frankly, in Fudge's position, the second I had the slightest inkling that Voldemort had risen, I'd make sure that Bella and her charming friends all had "nasty accidents." "Shot while attempting to escape" is always a good one. > > Imagine if Hagrid had gone to the giants as a ministry > representative, allowed to travel openly and quickly, and able to > call in backup if needed. The DE's sent to the Giants might have > been arrested (or maybe eaten) instead of being able to instigate a > coup. > At worst, the giants might have stayed neutral. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Apr 13 16:12:44 2010 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:12:44 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189135 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Catlady: > > > > DD planned for poor Severus to kill him to get in good with the Dark Lord and become the Dark Lord's Headmaster of Hogwarts to protect the students, so it does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over Hogwarts. It does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over the Ministry. > > Potioncat: > This is one of the reasons I think DD did believe in the prophecy. He certainly behaves as if he thinks there is one person who can defeat LV and that one person isn't him (DD). All his actions seem to be for the purpose of protecting Harry or of minimizing LV's power where he can. > Annemehr: Interesting point, Potioncat. Prophecy *is* a type of magic, after all, so I think we can assume that it has some (and maybe a good deal of) validity even if, perhaps, not all the prophecies stored in the MoM come true. Maybe DD's general attitude (including nearly deciding to stop teaching Divination at Hogwarts) springs from two things: the danger of misinterpreting prophecies and other signs, and an ideal that, even faced with a known prophecy, people ought to think things through for themselves rather than follow blindly. DD explained to Harry that the prophecy had so far come true because LV made it come true. But that certainly doesn't invalidate the prophecy or prove it an empty one. It was DD's way of bringing Harry to the point of making his own choice so that Harry would ultimately go willingly to face LV. Annemehr From jnoyl at aim.com Tue Apr 13 18:20:27 2010 From: jnoyl at aim.com (James Lyon) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:20:27 -0700 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic Message-ID: <7EB34FA4-38E3-4712-AE15-A367A864ACA2@aim.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189136 I do not understand. If the Ministry released the Dementors, they would have flown to Moldie. There was never any hope for the corrupt Ministry to hold Azkaban. Since Bumbles was the head of the Wizengamot (which appears to be both legislative and judicial), I place the blame for all the laws and judicial malfeasance at Bumble's feet. He never appeared to take any action to improve the Ministry, the laws, or the court system. He certainly never improved the school and it appears the school was in the midst of a many-year continuous decline in educational standards. Being the head of the international, he also is to blame for the fact that there was no international response or help. I put the hell of Harry's life and the hell of the WW life squarely at Bumble's feet. His Greater Good caused nothing but horror for all people, magical and mundane. He killed himself in his drive for ultimate power by trying to control all three Hallows--the all-wise, all-knowing Bumbles (don't look behind the curtain) can't resist putting a horcrux on his finger? He and Gellert both made sure the road to hell was well paved with their "good intentions" for the advancement of wizards. There is also the question of how a muggle-raised orphan, who spent his time while not at Hogwarts at the muggle orphanage, could create a horcrux before he was seventeen? Given how much Bumbles likes to sift through people's minds, just how much did he KNOW about Riddle and what was happening? He NEVER shows any real desire to investigate anything and apprehend the guilty party, so one wonders if he maintained the same hand's off approach to Riddle. We know that he will not kill and has simply imprisoned his mass-murdering lover. Then, if we look at his plan, from what we can gather from canon, he never gave Harry, or anyone, any significant training or passed along any significant information. He went to his death knowingly leaving Harry in the dark. He had how many years to find the horcruxes (at least three)? If he was really all that smart, why couldn't he do what was right instead of what is easy, and step down and find the damn things. Instead, he stays in his many offices, doing an abysmal job at all of them, and leaves Harry with an impossible job and no resources. He has ensured that Harry is a weak person and a weak wizard who has no desire to better himself, since he knows that he is just a freak and inferior to everyone else. No wonder Harry can not see himself with Herms and settles for a fangirl. The plan for Harry to destroy all the horcruxes was no plan at all. The plan for Harry to become the master of death was, again, no plan at all. Book 7 was no more than fate playing with her puppet and very little to do with the brilliance of Bumbles, and ends with no improvement in the WW and Harry married to Molly II. jnoyl From brian at rescueddoggies.com Tue Apr 13 12:25:26 2010 From: brian at rescueddoggies.com (Brian) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:25:26 -0300 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic Message-ID: <4BC462B6.9040503@rescueddoggies.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189137 Replying to Eric Open: "Shot while attempting to escape" is always a good one. As used by the most brutal dictators / facists / communists etc., totally reprehensible, even if it does ocassionally still happen in so-called civilised countries too Brian From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Apr 13 21:58:00 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:58:00 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189138 > Catlady: > > > > DD planned for poor Severus to kill him to get in good with the Dark Lord and become the Dark Lord's Headmaster of Hogwarts to protect the students, so it does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over Hogwarts. It does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over the Ministry. > > Potioncat: > This is one of the reasons I think DD did believe in the prophecy. He certainly behaves as if he thinks there is one person who can defeat LV and that one person isn't him (DD). All his actions seem to be for the purpose of protecting Harry or of minimizing LV's power where he can. > Pippin: Since Voldemort's rise to power began long before the prophecy was given, I don't see how the prophecy can account for Dumbledore's longstanding belief that he couldn't defeat Voldemort himself. Surely the answer is that Dumbledore was certain that Voldemort had already constructed a horcrux and unless it could be found and destroyed, no matter what was done Voldemort would survive him and return when the only one he feared was gone for good. There is no canon that making a horcrux would be beyond the powers of an exceptionally powerful, clever and ruthless young wizard-- if it was so difficult, Dumbledore would not have had to ban the subject to keep the information secret. It is probably much easier than, say, becoming an animagus. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Apr 13 23:00:18 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:00:18 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189139 > > Pippin: > There is no canon that making a horcrux would be beyond the powers of an exceptionally powerful, clever and ruthless young wizard-- if it was so difficult, Dumbledore would not have had to ban the subject to keep the information secret. It is probably much easier than, say, becoming an animagus. Amending my post -- what I meant to say is that if making horcruxes was almost impossibly difficult, there would have been no need to ban the subject to keep the information *from being used.* Sorry. Pippin From puduhepa98 at aol.com Wed Apr 14 02:53:17 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 02:53:17 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Catlady: > > > > DD planned for poor Severus to kill him to get in good with the Dark Lord and become the Dark Lord's Headmaster of Hogwarts to protect the students, so it does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over Hogwarts. It does not seem he planned to prevent the Dark Lord from taking over the Ministry. > > Potioncat: > This is one of the reasons I think DD did believe in the prophecy. He certainly behaves as if he thinks there is one person who can defeat LV and that one person isn't him (DD). All his actions seem to be for the purpose of protecting Harry or of minimizing LV's power where he can. > Nikkalmati DD says he does not believe in prophecies and I do not think he does (although the Wizarding World as a whole does believe). DD knows it is no use trying to kill LV before the Horcruxes are destroyed, and he maintains the pretense that Harry must meet LV, so that the last Horcrux, the one in Harry, can be destroyed by LV himself, sparing everyone else the unpleasant task. All his actions are pointed toward getting Harry killed at the right time by the right person. In addition, he wants Harry to do it voluntarily, but makes it almost impossible for him to make any other choice. The ironic thing is that Sibyl suffers from the same curse as her ancestress, Cassandra. No one believes her predictions, but they, in fact, all come true in one way or another. That's why the Prophecy comes true in the end - Sibyl is a true prophetess. nikkalmati From technomad at intergate.com Wed Apr 14 04:18:10 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:18:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: <4BC462B6.9040503@rescueddoggies.com> References: <4BC462B6.9040503@rescueddoggies.com> Message-ID: <20100413231810.rnliepkigw8sw84o@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189141 Quoting Brian : > Replying to Eric Open: > "Shot while attempting to escape" is always a good one. > > > As used by the most brutal dictators / facists / communists etc., > totally reprehensible, even if it does ocassionally still happen in > so-called civilised countries too > > Brian A good idea is a good idea. And considering who we are talking about (mass-murdering, torturing terrorists) I find it difficult to resist the idea. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From technomad at intergate.com Wed Apr 14 04:40:49 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:40:49 -0500 Subject: Snape as Headmaster Message-ID: <20100413234049.rsr8xbhh8g8cs48g@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189142 It has occurred to me that Snape, during his tenure as Headmaster of Hogwarts, was not the person really in control of the school. With the Carrows right there in Dark Arts and "Muggle Studies," they could have served the same purpose as "political officers" in the armed forces of the former Warsaw Pact countries. Political officers were there to keep an eye on the real officers, who were always distrusted by the communist regimes (their terror was based on what Napoleon I had done to the French Revolutionary government) and to keep them on the orthodox line. Decisions by the regular commander had to be approved by the political officer before they went into effect. This system was partially abandoned by the Soviets during WWII, because it was unwieldy and slow, but was reintroduced in peacetime. Another analogy that could be made is to kings who theoreticallly are absolute or nearly so, but in fact are prisoners of their guards or prominent nobles or other people. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 16:35:06 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:35:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic References: <4BC462B6.9040503@rescueddoggies.com> Message-ID: <06130148F3794ECA871478C8FAFCCD01@homemain> No: HPFGUIDX 189143 >> Pippin: >> No, it would have been political suicide to announce that in reponse >> to Voldemorts' return he was dismissing the dementors from Azkaban >> and sending envoys to the giants as Dumbledore asked. Dumbledore >> acknowledges as much. But those steps would have helped the Ministry >> and the public to defend themselves. >> >> Imagine if Bella and her cohorts had never escaped. From: "Eric Oppen" > Frankly, in Fudge's position, the second I had the slightest inkling > that Voldemort had risen, I'd make sure that Bella and her charming > friends all had "nasty accidents." "Shot while attempting to escape" > is always a good one. Shelley now: But that's exactly what is wrong with Fudge as Minister- he's unwilling to make the REALLY TOUGH decisions. Sacrificing a few Death Eaters so that Lord Thingy could not have his talented pool of thugs to regain power would have been a wise, sensible and best decision all the way around. It shows planning, forethought of preventing disaster. This isn't Fudge- he's sort of the bumbling idiot that can't foresee disaster coming and take active steps to prevent it. He's the sort that bemoans the disaster that fell upon him and says "there's nothing I could have done about it", rather than admitting the truth is closer to "I didn't have the courage to do something about it." Many may question America's use of the Atomic Bomb in WW2, but no one can dare say that America lacked the courage to make a hard decision. Indeed, making sure the Death Eaters died prematurely would have insured that many more innocent families did not have to die or tortured, and in my mind, would have been a worthy trade-off. But Fudge lacks the guts to do it. Even at the risk of them coming after me, I would have even found a way to openly execute the still loyal Death Eaters, to send a message to my community that I wasn't going to make the rise again of Lord Thingy an easy one. Quoting Brian : > As used by the most brutal dictators / facists / communists etc., > totally reprehensible, even if it does ocassionally still happen in > so-called civilised countries too It would be totally appropriate to call loyalty to Voldemort a crime, and to execute people for that crime. If the laws were still on the books from the first war with Voldemort, then they might only need a little bit of tweeking from "Azkaban" to "Dementor Kiss of Death". I fully disagree that only dictators or butal leaders would use this- Death Eaters are KNOWN KILLERS with no mercy shown to the public. We execute people in America for murders that are far less brutal than the reign of terror that Voldemort and his followers practiced. Shelley From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Apr 14 16:35:16 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:35:16 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: <20100413231810.rnliepkigw8sw84o@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189144 Eric: > > A good idea is a good idea. And considering who we are talking about > (mass-murdering, torturing terrorists) I find it difficult to resist > the idea. > Pippin: Would it help you to resist if you remembered that one of the people killed under that policy would have been Sirius Black? If the goal is to prevent innocent people from being murdered, it does not seem that JKR thinks state-sponsored executions are such a good idea. Pippin From k12listmomma at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 18:43:00 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:43:00 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic References: Message-ID: <29B63188EAFB4EAF9DC2FAACEE114D2F@homemain> No: HPFGUIDX 189145 > Eric: >> >> A good idea is a good idea. And considering who we are talking about >> (mass-murdering, torturing terrorists) I find it difficult to resist >> the idea. >> > > Pippin: > Would it help you to resist if you remembered that one of the people > killed under that policy would have been Sirius Black? > > If the goal is to prevent innocent people from being murdered, it does not > seem that JKR thinks state-sponsored executions are such a good idea. > > Pippin But Pippin, your argument is true of ANY public system of incarceration, exection or means of punishing criminals: we have the best intentions to make sure it's only the guilty are punished, but invaribly, there are innocents among those whom we locked up in a jail cell or were killed for a crime. The failure of the Ministry of Magic in this case was in jumping to the wrong conclusion and getting the wrong guy for the crime, but that happens everyday in real life, to very real people. I think JKR is saying that the Wizarding World is just as screwed up as our real one is. Personally, the story of Sirius being wrongly accused is just a set up for her story- she needed Harry to be an orphan, to be abandoned, to be taken in by Muggles for her plot of "protection" via Aunt Petunia to work. Thus, she wasn't giving a message that "executions" were a bad thing as much as telling us that the MoM was a very, very flawed system of justice. Sirius later then becomes a plot devise again of "the things Harry was denied" in the love of family, promise of a home where warmth and laughter was shared, etc. He's used in the theme that Harry can make a difference by righting certain wrongs (execution of Buckbeak and Sirius), because both were innocent. She didn't say executions were wrong- only that executions of innocents were wrong. Shelley From technomad at intergate.com Wed Apr 14 23:27:39 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:27:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: <06130148F3794ECA871478C8FAFCCD01@homemain> References: <4BC462B6.9040503@rescueddoggies.com> <06130148F3794ECA871478C8FAFCCD01@homemain> Message-ID: <20100414182739.c5ebjqg0i8sssc80@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189146 Quoting k12listmomma : >>> Pippin: >>> No, it would have been political suicide to announce that in reponse >>> to Voldemorts' return he was dismissing the dementors from Azkaban >>> and sending envoys to the giants as Dumbledore asked. Dumbledore >>> acknowledges as much. But those steps would have helped the Ministry >>> and the public to defend themselves. >>> >>> Imagine if Bella and her cohorts had never escaped. > > From: "Eric Oppen" >> Frankly, in Fudge's position, the second I had the slightest inkling >> that Voldemort had risen, I'd make sure that Bella and her charming >> friends all had "nasty accidents." "Shot while attempting to escape" >> is always a good one. > > Shelley now: > But that's exactly what is wrong with Fudge as Minister- he's unwilling to > make the REALLY TOUGH decisions. Sacrificing a few Death Eaters so that Lord > Thingy could not have his talented pool of thugs to regain power would have > been a wise, sensible and best decision all the way around. That's precisely why I would do it. Or, if _killing_ them is something I can't or don't want to do, keep in mind that we're talking about wizards and witches. Transfiguring them into something harmless, or Obliviating them to the level that Gilderoy Lockhart attained, are both do-able. I'd add "keep them under Imperius while I pump them for every last secret the DEs have," but apparently prolonged Imperius can be resisted. I would have even found a way to openly > execute the still loyal Death Eaters, to send a message to my community that > I wasn't going to make the rise again of Lord Thingy an easy one. > Do you mean people like Lucius Malfoy? Problem is, if you go around killing people who were "under the Imperius," folks are going to get scared of you and start thinking you're no better than Lord V. Me, I'd have given Lucius and the other "Imperiused" types a hearing---after dosing them with Veritaserum. And then acted according to whether the story of "Oh, I was Imperiused!" was true or not. > Quoting Brian : >> As used by the most brutal dictators / facists / communists etc., >> totally reprehensible, even if it does ocassionally still happen in >> so-called civilised countries too > > It would be totally appropriate to call loyalty to Voldemort a crime, and to > execute people for that crime. If the laws were still on the books from the > first war with Voldemort, then they might only need a little bit of tweeking > from "Azkaban" to "Dementor Kiss of Death". I fully disagree that only > dictators or butal leaders would use this- Death Eaters are KNOWN KILLERS > with no mercy shown to the public. We execute people in America for murders > that are far less brutal than the reign of terror that Voldemort and his > followers practiced. This is part of why I can't go along with people who see Snape as a misunderstood little woobie. We don't know what he was doing as a DE, but he could easily have committed terrible crimes---and being kept as a Potions teacher in Hogwarts somehow doesn't seem appropriate for a mass murderer and torturer, if that is what he was. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From technomad at intergate.com Wed Apr 14 23:30:44 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:30:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100414183044.r3nihtvu888sw0cg@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189147 Quoting pippin_999 : > Eric: >> >> A good idea is a good idea. And considering who we are talking about >> (mass-murdering, torturing terrorists) I find it difficult to resist >> the idea. >> > > Pippin: > Would it help you to resist if you remembered that one of the people > killed under that policy would have been Sirius Black? > > If the goal is to prevent innocent people from being murdered, it > does not seem that JKR thinks state-sponsored executions are such a > good idea. Before I did _anything,_ I'd want to make sure that the people in question were guilty. Why they didn't even try to question Black (make sure he wasn't under the Imperius or otherwise magically controlled, wait till all possible antidotes were out of his system and then dose him with Veritaserum and question him, get a Penseive) is utterly beyond me. Once I was sure of guilt, though...unlike fashionable opinion on the other side of the Herring Pond, I am with most of my fellow Americans in not opposing the death penalty for sufficiently heinous crimes, and what the DEs apparently did routinely certainly qualifies. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Thu Apr 15 13:57:07 2010 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:57:07 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: <20100414183044.r3nihtvu888sw0cg@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189148 > > Eric: > Before I did _anything,_ I'd want to make sure that the people in > question were guilty. Why they didn't even try to question Black > (make sure he wasn't under the Imperius or otherwise magically > controlled, wait till all possible antidotes were out of his system > and then dose him with Veritaserum and question him, get a Penseive) > is utterly beyond me. Magpie: Because they already were sure he was guilty. As far as anyone was concerned, there was no miscarriage of justice there. There were witnesses. "Everyone" knew he was guilty. Dumbledore testified he was the secret keeper etc. I think that mentality would actually be more common in a world where official policy was to kill anybody said to have loyalty to DE than less. In the US justice system, for instance, there's a lot of things that make it unsurprising that innocent people wind up on death row. Guilty people, for instance, are more likely to plead down if the death penalty is used as a threat. Innocent people more often refuse to plead because they don't want to admit to a crime (especially a particularly disgusting one) they didn't commit. Being sure a person is guilty can mean different things to different people. Basically, we're talking about the Dexter system, right? I mean, based on the TV show that's based on the books? Dexter as an individual murders mass murderers. Though sometimes he, too, makes mistakes. (And he's not doing it really out of justice, he just has a desire to kill and focuses on people that turn his desire into a sort of facsimile of justice.) As for Fudge killing all the DEs, yes, that would have been a way to go. You do prevent any chance that any of them will join LV again if they're dead. Though I think that policy of killing people for being loyal to the wrong people can pretty obviously lead to bigger problems. The bigger loss in this case would possibly have been Snape rather than Sirius. Snape was a DE but later was an effective ally. Harry seems to think they also are too quick to consider someone proved loyal to the DEs. It would have prevented Barty from getting out--and ironically would probably have prevented Peter from bringing LV back as well (since he might have just stayed a rat w/o the confrontation w/Sirius). It probably would have also led to a lot of innocent deaths and possible thought policing etc. Eric: > Once I was sure of guilt, though...unlike fashionable opinion on the > other side of the Herring Pond, I am with most of my fellow Americans > in not opposing the death penalty for sufficiently heinous crimes, and > what the DEs apparently did routinely certainly qualifies. Magpie: I wouldn't claim "most" of your fellow Americans in not opposing it for sufficiently heinous crimes (another reason it often gets applied unfairly, btw, because the more heinous the crime the more emotional the trial). I believe studies have more shown that opinion on the death penalty isn't that different in the US than in many other countries. The difference is more in that in the US it's decided by state so in some places it's legal and in other places it's not. But there are plenty of Americans who oppose it. -m From no.limberger at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 16:49:46 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:49:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why unforgiveable? In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e1003171409od781943h5a983fc87c95eab2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B9144A7.90903@moosewise.com> <43e41d1e1003171409od781943h5a983fc87c95eab2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189149 > Bart wrote: > There's a current conversation about Harry's use of crucio and other > unforgivable curses. Which means that it might be useful looking at the > unforgivable curses in general. Here's my take: > > In the Potterverse, there are 3 curses which are considered > "unforgivable". Yet, Harry performs two of them, and tries to perform > the third. > > Now, of course, there is the bumbling bureaucracy in the Potterverse, > and they have certain penalties for the three curses (rather than using > the cutesy names, I'll use what the curses do: extreme pain, replacing > another's free will with your own, and death). But let's look at the > idea that the "unforgivable" came BEFORE the bureaucracy. > > snip > Add to this what we know about the unforgivables; they don't work unless > you really WANT them to work. You need to really WANT someone to > experience pain, to experience death, to impose your will upon theirs. > > snip > so, the addiction is permanent; once addicted, always addicted. > > And therein, once again in my opinion, lies the unforgivable nature of > unforgivable curses. Because once you have cast them, the fact that you > have becomes part of you. You are forever open to the temptation to cast > them again, snip> > > Bart > >Nikkalmati wrote: >I rather like your take on the Unforgivables, but I have always held a rather diffferent idea. >I don't see the Unforgivables as morally reprehensible in all cases. Most if not all >spells require that you really want them to work. There are plenty of very evil spells >out there too (what about the evicerating spell?). I think these three spells are just >ones the bureauacracy has decided are worthy of Azkaban. Maybe they were >considered a greater threat to society than others. Maybe they were associated with >Death Eaters. In any case, I don't think JKR intended them to be the heighth of evil - >just very severely punished by the Ministry. No.Limberger responds: In the Potterverse, there are various types of spells & enchantments, including curses. A curse is generally anything that harms, controls or kills the victim. The so-called "unforgivable curses" are, by their very name, curses, and are, in all likelihood, the most extreme examples of curses. In the Potterverse, it could be said that magic is a natural force that can be used by those imbued with it to overcome the other, more common, forces of nature. For magic to work, the witch or wizard not only must be sufficiently trained, but must possess the will to cast a particular spell, enchantment, curse, etc. Thus, to perform a curse, there must be a deep desire within the caster to want to harm, control and/or kill the intended victim; implying that the caster is highly unethical and immoral. For an unforgivable curse, the desire to do harm must be very great. Most people would probably never consider doing any of them, but someone in a heightened state of anger may attempt to do one simply out of anger, then never decide to reattempt it. Those that choose to regularly use them are not necessarily doing them out of anger, but for pleasure and/or to achieve their goals by any means. It is because of the regular users why I believe the Ministry declared them to be unforgivable. Given that a spell is simply the means by which a witch or wizard learns to use the magic that is already available to him/her, it isn't so much that curses by themselves are unethical, immoral or evil; it's that the caster is sufficiently unethical and immoral to choose to use them against others. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 15 19:46:51 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 19:46:51 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: <20100414183044.r3nihtvu888sw0cg@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189150 > > > > Pippin: > > Would it help you to resist if you remembered that one of the people > > killed under that policy would have been Sirius Black? > > > > If the goal is to prevent innocent people from being murdered, it > > does not seem that JKR thinks state-sponsored executions are such a > > good idea. Eric: > Before I did _anything,_ I'd want to make sure that the people in > question were guilty. Why they didn't even try to question Black > (make sure he wasn't under the Imperius or otherwise magically > controlled, wait till all possible antidotes were out of his system > and then dose him with Veritaserum and question him, get a Penseive) > is utterly beyond me. Alla: Problem is though that everybody including Dumbledore was absolutely, positively sure that he was guilty as hell, no? I would totally support your argument if we could be absolutely sure that they are guilty. I just do not think that any system of justice including WW one allows for somebody to be absolutely sure. If one is willing to allow for mistake of executing innocent people to be made, then sure, but I do not think it should be that way. By the way, I am not even making an argument against the death penalty in the books and/or in RL, even though I am against it for this very reason, I was under impression that you were suggesting to execute them as the preventive measure, look what we will do to you, etc. If WW court decided that they deserved execution from the beginning that would be less problematic to me (even though there is still a possibility of mistake), but not when they were sentenced to prison and now, oops, we decide to kill you because we can. JMO, Alla From bart at moosewise.com Fri Apr 16 04:00:38 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 00:00:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC7E0E6.6000609@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189151 On 4/15/2010 3:46 PM, dumbledore11214 wrote: > Problem is though that everybody including Dumbledore was absolutely, > positively sure that he was guilty as hell, no? I would totally > support your argument if we could be absolutely sure that they are > guilty. I just do not think that any system of justice including WW > one allows for somebody to be absolutely sure. Bart: You are forgetting one key person who thought Sirius was guilty: Sirius. Maybe not directly, but as the one who thought of making Scabbers the secret keeper, but he felt responsible. Bart From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Apr 17 17:56:30 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 17 Apr 2010 17:56:30 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 4/18/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1271526990.565.568.m13@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189152 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday April 18, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) 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URL: From k12listmomma at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 13:51:43 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:51:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189154 > Eric: >> Before I did _anything,_ I'd want to make sure that the people in >> question were guilty. Why they didn't even try to question Black >> (make sure he wasn't under the Imperius or otherwise magically >> controlled, wait till all possible antidotes were out of his system >> and then dose him with Veritaserum and question him, get a Penseive) >> is utterly beyond me. > > > Alla: > Problem is though that everybody including Dumbledore was absolutely, > positively sure that he was guilty as hell, no? I would totally support > your argument if we could be absolutely sure that they are guilty. I just > do not think that any system of justice including WW one allows for > somebody to be absolutely sure. > > If one is willing to allow for mistake of executing innocent people to be > made, then sure, but I do not think it should be that way. > > By the way, I am not even making an argument against the death penalty in > the books and/or in RL, even though I am against it for this very reason, > I was under impression that you were suggesting to execute them as the > preventive measure, look what we will do to you, etc. If WW court decided > that they deserved execution from the beginning that would be less > problematic to me (even though there is still a possibility of mistake), > but not when they were sentenced to prison and now, oops, we decide to > kill you because we can. Shelley now: But it wouldn't be "oops, we decide to kill you because we can"- the previous prison sentence was for previous support of Voldemort. The current death sentence would be for CURRENT support of Voldemort. Once it was clear that he was about to gain power again, the message could be sent that "this time", there was no leniency, no tolerance. You could Veritasersum all suspected still loyal Death Eaters and ask them "Are you still loyal to Voldemort, under penalty of Death under the current law?" and if they answer YES, the execution or Kiss from a Dementor would be carried out immediately. Yes, execution of the Death Eaters before they had the chance to return to Voldemort would be a preventative measure, but it could be done as a current measure and not a punishment for previous crimes. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Mon Apr 19 13:56:18 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:56:18 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic References: <4BC7E0E6.6000609@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189155 > On 4/15/2010 3:46 PM, dumbledore11214 wrote: >> Problem is though that everybody including Dumbledore was absolutely, >> positively sure that he was guilty as hell, no? I would totally >> support your argument if we could be absolutely sure that they are >> guilty. I just do not think that any system of justice including WW >> one allows for somebody to be absolutely sure. > > Bart: > You are forgetting one key person who thought Sirius was guilty: > Sirius. Maybe not directly, but as the one who thought of making > Scabbers the secret keeper, but he felt responsible. > > Bart Shelley: In that, you are very right. Sirius, I am sure, felt so bad about the loss of his best friends, that he did not move to defend himself. Sirius thought that he himself had personally failed them. Whatever the wizarding world did to him, it couldn't compare to the pain he felt at the loss of Lilly and James. He was a lamb being led to slaughter, and he didn't make a peep to defend himself, until he realized that he could do something to change the future, when he realized that the rat (Peter) excaped and was still alive. That's when we start to see the fire that is within Sirius rise again. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 17:49:07 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 17:49:07 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189156 > Shelley now: > But it wouldn't be "oops, we decide to kill you because we can"- the > previous prison sentence was for previous support of Voldemort. The current > death sentence would be for CURRENT support of Voldemort. Once it was clear > that he was about to gain power again, the message could be sent that "this > time", there was no leniency, no tolerance. You could Veritasersum all > suspected still loyal Death Eaters and ask them "Are you still loyal to > Voldemort, under penalty of Death under the current law?" and if they answer > YES, the execution or Kiss from a Dementor would be carried out immediately. > Yes, execution of the Death Eaters before they had the chance to return to > Voldemort would be a preventative measure, but it could be done as a current > measure and not a punishment for previous crimes. > Alla: But the sentence which they were doing was not for just being loyal to Voldemort, it was for what they DID in support of Voldemort? If Fudge would have done what you suggest here, wouldn't he be executing them for what they THINK and not have done yet? I don't know, I think this is one of the things I am glad that Fudge have not done. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 17:59:11 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 17:59:11 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: <4BC7E0E6.6000609@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189157 > Bart: > You are forgetting one key person who thought Sirius was guilty: > Sirius. Maybe not directly, but as the one who thought of making > Scabbers the secret keeper, but he felt responsible. Alla: Of course he felt responsible. I just did not think that him feeling responsible is relevant to the argument I was making. Whether he felt responsible or not, it is the conviction of the people that had the power to persecute and prosecute him what mattered,no? IMO, Alla. From technomad at intergate.com Mon Apr 19 18:31:05 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 13:31:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100419133105.svzxorpag4skw8ks@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189158 Quoting dumbledore11214 : > > >> Bart: >> You are forgetting one key person who thought Sirius was guilty: >> Sirius. Maybe not directly, but as the one who thought of making >> Scabbers the secret keeper, but he felt responsible. > > Alla: > > Of course he felt responsible. I just did not think that him feeling > responsible is relevant to the argument I was making. Whether he > felt responsible or not, it is the conviction of the people that had > the power to persecute and prosecute him what mattered,no? Sirius _should have_ been put on trial, preferably after he'd had a chance to collect his wits. One of the things that shocked me most was Sirius' casually mentioning that he hadn't been the only one thrown into Azkaban _sans_ trial. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From bart at moosewise.com Mon Apr 19 18:45:40 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:45:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BCCA4D4.2020104@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189159 On 4/19/2010 1:59 PM, dumbledore11214 wrote: >> Bart: >> You are forgetting one key person who thought Sirius was guilty: >> Sirius. Maybe not directly, but as the one who thought of making >> Scabbers the secret keeper, but he felt responsible. >> > Alla: > > Of course he felt responsible. I just did not think that him feeling responsible is relevant to the argument I was making. Whether he felt responsible or not, it is the conviction of the people that had the power to persecute and prosecute him what mattered,no? > Bart: Well, just going by standard muggle legal procedure in English law, the prosecution had a prima facie case. For non-legal people, this means that if the defendant does not put up any defense, and the case was held in front of a judge, a conviction would be the result. It was strongly implied that Sirius never even stated that he was not guilty, much less put up a defense. Now, seeing what happened to Hagrid in COS, there does not appear to be automatic right to legal counsel in the WW. We are not really given any good information as to what would have happened had Sirius tried to mount a defense, it was made reasonably clear that he did not even declare himself to be not guilty. Consider that he didn't even tell Dumbledore or Lupin until Harry was endangered by his silence. Bart From bart at moosewise.com Mon Apr 19 18:51:52 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:51:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: <20100419133105.svzxorpag4skw8ks@webmail.intergate.com> References: <20100419133105.svzxorpag4skw8ks@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: <4BCCA648.7010209@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189160 On 4/19/2010 2:31 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > Sirius _should have_ been put on trial, preferably after he'd had a > chance to collect his wits. One of the things that shocked me most > was Sirius' casually mentioning that he hadn't been the only one > thrown into Azkaban _sans_ trial. > Bart: We already saw Hagrid thrown in Azkaban sans trial in COS. And people who plead guilty almost never have trials. During a violent civil uprising, it is not at all surprising that a refusal to defend one's self would be considered to be an admission of guilt. Bart From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Apr 19 22:56:34 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:56:34 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189161 > Shelley now:. You could Veritasersum all > suspected still loyal Death Eaters and ask them "Are you still loyal to > Voldemort, under penalty of Death under the current law?" and if they answer > YES, the execution or Kiss from a Dementor would be carried out immediately. > Yes, execution of the Death Eaters before they had the chance to return to > Voldemort would be a preventative measure, but it could be done as a current > measure and not a punishment for previous crimes. > Pippin: There are known ways to defeat veritaserum. But it's the unknown ways I'd be worried about if I was fighting Voldemort. Crouch evidently didn't think he could rely on it. Not to mention that this policy might have killed off the Malfoys and even Snape and Regulus, had they been unlucky enough to be captured before their change of heart. Those who are loyal to Voldemort don't always remain so. Pippin From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 20 04:21:46 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 04:21:46 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189162 > Nikkalmati > > DD says he does not believe in prophecies and I do not think he > does (although the Wizarding World as a whole does believe). > Mike: I agree with you in principle, although I think DD approaches prophesies from a different angle. I think he sees them as self-fulfilling or bust. That's why there are so many unfulfilled prophesies in the MoM, IMHO. People that don't know about these prophesies, can't self-fulfill them. DD says Harry can walk away from his, iow, he doesn't have to self-fulfill his side, but that LV is bound and determined to fulfill his own side, which makes Harry's choice to walk away moot. > Nikkalmati > > The ironic thing is that Sibyl suffers from the same curse as her > ancestress, Cassandra. No one believes her predictions, but they, > in fact, all come true in one way or another. That's why the > Prophecy comes true in the end - Sibyl is a true prophetess. Mike: Well, certainly Sibyll's prophesies that can be self-fulfilled came true, even if the people involved didn't realize that's what they were doing. I'm speaking of Harry fulfilling Sibyll's 2nd one about Peter escaping. I wouldn't call Sibyll's card reading the same thing as prophetizing, at least in the strict sense. She was certainly channeling a similar magically ability, one that seers probably have in spades (pun intended). But card or Tarot reading is more like interpreting the signs than prophetizing, don't you think? Mike PS - Nikkalmati, I just saw a National Geographic show on the Hittites. After all these years I finally get where you got Puduhepa. :) Will I have to go another 4 years to figure out where you got "Nikkalmati"? From puduhepa98 at aol.com Wed Apr 21 01:30:30 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:30:30 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189163 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Nikkalmati > > > > DD says he does not believe in prophecies and I do not think he > > does (although the Wizarding World as a whole does believe). > > > > Mike: > > I agree with you in principle, although I think DD approaches prophesies from a different angle. I think he sees them as self-fulfilling or bust. That's why there are so many unfulfilled > prophesies in the MoM, IMHO. People that don't know about these prophesies, can't self-fulfill them. > > DD says Harry can walk away from his, iow, he doesn't have to self-fulfill his side, but that LV is bound and determined to fulfill his own side, which makes Harry's choice to walk away moot. > > > > Nikkalmati > > > > The ironic thing is that Sibyl suffers from the same curse as her > > ancestress, Cassandra. No one believes her predictions, but they, > > in fact, all come true in one way or another. That's why the > > Prophecy comes true in the end - Sibyl is a true prophetess. > > Mike: > > Well, certainly Sibyll's prophesies that can be self-fulfilled came true, even if the people involved didn't realize that's what they were doing. I'm speaking of Harry fulfilling Sibyll's 2nd one about Peter escaping. > > I wouldn't call Sibyll's card reading the same thing as prophetizing, at least in the strict sense. She was certainly channeling a similar magically ability, one that seers probably have in spades (pun intended). But card or Tarot reading is more like interpreting the signs than prophetizing, don't you think? > > Mike > Nikkalmati > Well, I was lumping them both together. Funny thing - she can't do interpretation either. She misreads her own readings in all media. She must be affected by the curse too. Of course, "you are in grave danger" is so general it can't be misread, but she often gets the source of the danger wrong. I find it amusing to visulize her badgering DD every day about his impending death, when he already knew all about it. (I wonder if she ever addressed SS about his readings?). Of course, prophecy is different. It is unexpected and more dramatic. She doesn't even know about her pronouncements. It does seem, thought, that a Seer was expected to be familiar with all modes of prediction and be able to use them. I do see your point that if LV was going to fulfill his side of the Prophecy, Harry had little choice but to respond in some way. DD knew Harry wouldn't run or hide, so from there, DD ust had to make Harry trust him and guide him. I am not sure how Peter's escape was self-fulfilling. Peter didn't know about it. Neither did Lupin. It was an "accident." BTW we don't know all the prophecies in the DOM were unfulfilled. Perhaps they were mostly fulfilled and kept for research purposes. Nikkalmati From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Apr 21 14:24:10 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:24:10 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189164 i > Nikkalmati > > I do see your point that if LV was going to fulfill his side of the Prophecy, Harry had little choice but to respond in some way. DD knew Harry wouldn't run or hide, so from there, DD just had to make Harry trust him and guide him. > Pippin: If Dumbledore believed in the prophecy, he wouldn't have thought he needed to make Harry do anything. He could have left everything to chance. His disbelief, ironically, made him act to bring the prophecy about. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 16:39:20 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:39:20 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > i > > Nikkalmati > > > > > I do see your point that if LV was going to fulfill his side of the Prophecy, Harry had little choice but to respond in some way. DD knew Harry wouldn't run or hide, so from there, DD just had to make Harry trust him and guide him. > > > > Pippin: > If Dumbledore believed in the prophecy, he wouldn't have thought he needed to make Harry do anything. He could have left everything to chance. His disbelief, ironically, made him act to bring the prophecy about. > > Pippin > Carol responds: Not necessarily. He seems to have thought (or known) that Harry and only Harry was "the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord" and acted accordingly. (Sure, Harry has his mother's love and the soul bit inside him, all of which fits with the Prophecy, but why not arm him with knowledge as well, especially Voldemort's past and his psychology, so that he'll understand what he's facing? And why not train him and test him to make sure that he doesn't fail? After all, the Prophecy only says "either [meaning one of the two] must die at the hand of the other." It doesn't say which of the two will be victorious. In any case, his knowing the Prophecy and acting on it does help to bring it about even though he's not one of the principals involved. Carol, quite sure that DD would not have drawn Sybil out of the Pensieve for Harry's benefit and explained the components of the Prophecy if he didn't believe in "the power that the Dark Lord has not" and the rest of it From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 18:57:01 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:57:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189166 With apologies for delay here is chapter 14 guys :) and if anybody wants to volunteer for Prisoner of Azkaban, the e-mail address is at the bottom of this post, there are plenty unclaimed chapters left. Zara, thank you, thank you and thank you again for your help. This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 14: Cornelius Fudge. In this chapter, Harry informs Ron and Hermione that in the memories from Riddle diary, it looked as if Hagrid opened Chamber of Secrets. After a brief discussion Trio decide not to talk to Hagrid about it, though they do change their minds later. We learn that the Mandrakes already had a wild party and as soon as they will start moving into each other's pots they will be fully mature. Madame Pomfrey hopes that people can be unpetrified soon thereafter. Harry discovers that Riddle diary was stolen from him. Since it was taken from his room only a fellow Gryffindor could have done that. Harry hears the "Kill" voice again and Hermione runs to the library to check something she thinks she understood. Wood works his team to prepare for the match against the Hufflepuffs. However, the match is cancelled right as it starts, because of two more attacks. The victims are Penelope Clearwater and Hermione Granger. Ron and Harry decide to visit Hagrid after all. They end up witnessing Cornelius Fudge announcing to Hagrid that he is being taken to Azkaban, and Lucius Malfoy announcing to Dumbledore that he is being suspended by order of the Board of Governors. 1. I am pretty sure JKR was going for comic effect with the Mandrakes, but when I was rereading this chapter I found myself strangely disturbed by imagining young wizards and witches cutting the parts of the beings that seem so humanlike in their behavior. What part of the Mandrakes is being used in the potion? Are they going to be really and most sincerely dead before or during the process? 2. "Travels with Trolls" is one of the items Harry finds on his bed after the villain who stole the diary went through his trunk. What was the reason for Lockhart to assign it as one of the books for class, what did you think he was hoping students will learn from that book? 3. What was your first impression of Cornelius Fudge? 4. I know it will come as no surprise to anybody but I found myself if not sympathizing with Lucius Malfoy (his tone showed to me that he had little if any concerns about the plight of Muggleborns), but at least definitely cheering him on and hoping in vain that somebody in the later books had guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore out of school for good. Did you think that Board of Governors provided effective checks and balances to Dumbledore's powers? 5. If you remember your first reaction, did you believe that Hagrid was guilty? 6. What did you think about Hermione being a victim? Was it a clue for you that the monster target Muggleborns? Was Hermione rash in her actions and put herself at risk? Did readers worry how Ron and Harry would manage without her? Why do we think Rowling wanted them to manage without her? 7. Who did you think stole the diary from Harry? Was Ginny among the suspects? NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 15, "Aragog", on April 25. 2010. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 20:12:25 2010 From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (poohmeg20) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:12:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189167 > 1. I am pretty sure JKR was going for comic effect with the Mandrakes, but when I was rereading this chapter I found myself strangely disturbed by imagining young wizards and witches cutting the parts of the beings that seem so humanlike in their behavior. What part of the Mandrakes is being used in the potion? Are they going to be really and most sincerely dead before or during the process? > Megan: You know, that didn't hit me until this most recent round of discussions of this book as I was re-reading in response to some questions posted earlier. I think JKR presented them in a comic enough way that I didn't think of how disturbing it was at first that they would be killing these human-like creatures, or even worse, cutting them up alive. I wonder if it hits her differently, re-reading it now. > 2. "Travels with Trolls" is one of the items Harry finds on his bed after the villain who stole the diary went through his trunk. What was the reason for Lockhart to assign it as one of the books for class, what did you think he was hoping students will learn from that book? > Megan: I think every book he assigned was supposed to teach students how awesome he is - perhaps he did have deeper motives than that, but my little mind didn't catch onto them. > 3. What was your first impression of Cornelius Fudge? > Megan: I think with the name I thought he was going to be comic relief - typical blowhard politician. I was actually kind of surprised that he ended up being involved in more serious aspects of the series plot. > 4. I know it will come as no surprise to anybody but I found myself if not sympathizing with Lucius Malfoy (his tone showed to me that he had little if any concerns about the plight of Muggleborns), but at least definitely cheering him on and hoping in vain that somebody in the later books had guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore out of school for good. Did you think that Board of Governors provided effective checks and balances to Dumbledore's powers? > Megan: Well, I was generally a Dumbledore fan through most of the series, but the important thing with any kind of governance structure in the real world is to make sure it's not set up around particular individuals' personalities, popularity, or lack thereof. Whether or not you like Dumbeldore, even aside from the events of the series, he would not have been headmaster forever. Someone else would have come along that a given person might feel differently about, for better or for worse. So no matter what, it is important to have an opportunity to voice opposing opinions and curb excesses in any extreme. I can't say that was the first thing that popped into my mind in this situation, but now that you mention it, it would be a good idea for Hogwarts to have some other governance besides the sole authority of the headmaster. It didn't do much good later in the series, apparently - I don't recall if the board was mentioned during Snape's time. > 5. If you remember your first reaction, did you believe that Hagrid was guilty? > Megan: I never thought that Hagrid would do anything malicious at any point in the series - but I did wonder if he might have done something without realizing what he wad doing. So that was in the back of my mind throughout the book. > 6. What did you think about Hermione being a victim? Was it a clue for you that the monster target Muggleborns? Was Hermione rash in her actions and put herself at risk? Did readers worry how Ron and Harry would manage without her? Why do we think Rowling wanted them to manage without her? > Megan: My first thought at the first reading was that it was to demonstrate how serious the attacks were - even one of the main characters was frozen! So I don't think I analyzed it much more than that - but it was also interesting to see how the boys did on their own. > 7. Who did you think stole the diary from Harry? Was Ginny among the suspects? > Megan: I don't think Ginny crossed my mind - for some reason, she never really hit me as a major character at any point in the series, so I tended to forget about her! I think my first thought was Malfoy. Thanks for the great questions! From bart at moosewise.com Wed Apr 21 23:39:12 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:39:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BCF8CA0.8080806@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189168 Pippin: > If Dumbledore believed in the prophecy, he wouldn't have thought he needed to make Harry do anything. He could have left everything to chance. His disbelief, ironically, made him act to bring the prophecy about. > Bart: I think that, more precisely, DD did not think that prophecy was inevitable. He did not so much act to bring the prophecy about as take advantage of the fact that Morty believed it, so that DD could control the way the prophecy came out. Bart From puduhepa98 at aol.com Thu Apr 22 01:03:28 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 01:03:28 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > i > > Nikkalmati > > > > > I do see your point that if LV was going to fulfill his side of the Prophecy, Harry had little choice but to respond in some way. DD knew Harry wouldn't run or hide, so from there, DD just had to make Harry trust him and guide him. > > > > Pippin: > If Dumbledore believed in the prophecy, he wouldn't have thought he needed to make Harry do anything. He could have left everything to chance. His disbelief, ironically, made him act to bring the prophecy about. > > Pippin > Nikkalmati I like this thought. If DD had believed in the prophecy, possibly he would not have told Harry about the prophecy, or he would not have sought out the Horcruxes and gotton Harry to search for them? What exactly did DD do differently? I suspect he would have hired Sybel and tried to protect the Potters and given Harry to the Dursleys in any case. Nikkalmati From puduhepa98 at aol.com Thu Apr 22 01:10:53 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 01:10:53 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189170 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > >> > > > Pippin: > > If Dumbledore believed in the prophecy, he wouldn't have thought he needed to make Harry do anything. He could have left everything to chance. His disbelief, ironically, made him act to bring the prophecy about. > > > > Pippin > > > Carol responds: > > Not necessarily. He seems to have thought (or known) that Harry and only Harry was "the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord" and acted accordingly. (Sure, Harry has his mother's love and the soul bit inside him, all of which fits with the Prophecy, but why not arm him with knowledge as well, especially Voldemort's past and his psychology, so that he'll understand what he's facing? And why not train him and test him to make sure that he doesn't fail? After all, the Prophecy only says "either [meaning one of the two] must die at the hand of the other." It doesn't say which of the two will be victorious. In any case, his knowing the Prophecy and acting on it does help to bring it about even though he's not one of the principals involved. > > Carol, quite sure that DD would not have drawn Sybil out of the Pensieve for Harry's benefit and explained the components of the Prophecy if he didn't believe in "the power that the Dark Lord has not" and the rest of it > Nikkalmati I don't get this. DD had no good reason to believe Harry would defeat the Dark Lord. His original plan was to get Harry killed. Then someone else could defeat the Dark Lord. As it turned out, Harry did not remain dead, but that was not part of DD's plan. At best it was a hope. He told Harry the prophecy, so he would understand why LV was after him and why he had to fight him. Wasn't the power to defeat the Dark Lord in the end his affinity with the Elder Wand - not something that could ever have been predicted. Nikkalmati From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 22 04:11:59 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 04:11:59 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Prophesy Manipulation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189171 > > Mike, previously: > > > > Well, certainly Sibyll's prophesies that can be self-fulfilled > > came true, even if the people involved didn't realize that's > > what they were doing. I'm speaking of Harry fulfilling Sibyll's > > 2nd one about Peter escaping. > Nikkalmati > > I am not sure how Peter's escape was self-fulfilling. Peter didn't > know about it. Neither did Lupin. It was an "accident." Mike: I think I was too limiting by saying "self-fulfilling". Maybe I should have called it participant-fulfilling or self-fulfilling-type. What I was thinking - or rather what I think DD's approach to the prophesies was - that these prophesies required someone that hears it to act on it, even if they don't think they are acting on it or realize they are acting on it. Snape heard Sibyll's first and acted on it in two ways: telling LV and subsequently asking LV to spare Lily. DD heard it and used it to manipulate both Snape and later Harry. Harry heard it and eventually chose to fulfill the final clause, twice actually. :) Harry was the only one to hear Sibyll's second, and he acted on it without realizing he was. If he and Hermione hadn't gone after Ron and Sirius to the Shrieking Shack, Peter would have been killed by Sirius and never would have escaped, probably!?! Participant-fulfilled? I dunno, it's just a theory. And it's sounding kind of thin right now. > Nikkalmati > > BTW we don't know all the prophecies in the DOM were unfulfilled. > Perhaps they were mostly fulfilled and kept for research purposes. Mike: Oh, I didn't mean to imply that all of them were unfulfilled. DD did tell us that at least some of them were unfulfilled, that's what I was thinking of. I was surmising, from DD's point of view, that the unfulfilled were the ones nobody acted upon. > Nikkalmati > > I do see your point that if LV was going to fulfill his side of > the Prophecy, Harry had little choice but to respond in some way. > DD knew Harry wouldn't run or hide, so from there, DD just had to > make Harry trust him and guide him. Mike: Precisely. I know we aren't revealing anything earth-shattering here. The real question, in my mind, is why did DD reveal the prophesy to Harry if he didn't believe in them? Was it simply to explain why LV was after Harry? Or was it a part of a more complicated plan? I think DD understood that LV had to resume corporeal form if he was ever going to be vanquished permanently. DD also knew that LV would eventually find a way to do just that. I think he wanted to control that in some way, how I do not know. But that's why he brought the Philosopher's Stone to Hogwarts. I think all of those tests were designed to keep the students out, not LV (or rather the Quirrel/LV hybrid). I think Harry's surmising that DD wanted to give Harry his shot at LV was a bunch of hogwash. He had other plans for Harry and he was trying to do something with a resurrected LV. Harry messed that up and almost got himself killed in the process. What was DD supposed to say to Harry after all that? "Good job, old boy, you mucked up everything." No, he can't deflate Harry, so he uses the incident to implant a *you're special* message to Harry. Harry is incredulous that DD isn't more concerned about the second prophesy coming true, LV coming back more powerful than before. But again, DD needs LV in corporeal form. Harry doesn't know that, but we do now. He makes light of the second one because he didn't even know about it and still it's going to work to his advantage. So, does DD believe in prophesies? I think he uses them to his advantage when he can. Like you said in your earlier post, the majority of the WW believes in prophesies and DD understands that, too. That's why he told Harry of The Prophesy, to use it to manipulate Harry. He obliquely lets Harry in on his belief - in HBP - when it no longer matters whether Harry believes in prophesies or not. Both because he's sure Harry believes in this one and because LV has taken that decision out of Harry's hands. LV wants Harry dead by his own hand, that is abundantly clear. Harry's only choice is to let LV kill him or to kill LV himself. Curiously, Harry does both, and they both work! JMHO Mike, who now has a new respect for the Hittites! :) From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Thu Apr 22 05:15:06 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 05:15:06 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189172 > > 1. I am pretty sure JKR was going for comic effect with the Mandrakes, but when I was rereading this chapter I found myself strangely disturbed by imagining young wizards and witches cutting the parts of the beings that seem so humanlike in their behavior. What part of the Mandrakes is being used in the potion? Are they going to be really and most sincerely dead before or during the process? Joey: Even during my first read, I was disturbed to know that the mandrakes would have to be killed to make the potion. IIRC, I think the potion was made by stewing them. :-( > > 2. "Travels with Trolls" is one of the items Harry finds on his bed after the villain who stole the diary went through his trunk. What was the reason for Lockhart to assign it as one of the books for class, what did you think he was hoping students will learn from that book? Joey: I really don't think he hoped that the students would learn anything out of any of his books. > > 3. What was your first impression of Cornelius Fudge? Joey: Spineless politician. I was annoyed when he said that he had to do "something" regarding the incidents. > > 4. I know it will come as no surprise to anybody but I found myself if not sympathizing with Lucius Malfoy (his tone showed to me that he had little if any concerns about the plight of Muggleborns), but at least definitely cheering him on and hoping in vain that somebody in the later books had guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore out of school for good. Did you think that Board of Governors provided effective checks and balances to Dumbledore's powers? Joey: The Board of Governors who unanimously sided with Lucius Malfoy to throw out DD and then unanimously invited DD back? No. > > 6. What did you think about Hermione being a victim? Was it a clue for you that the monster target Muggleborns? Was Hermione rash in her actions and put herself at risk? Did readers worry how Ron and Harry would manage without her? Why do we think Rowling wanted them to manage without her? Joey: Yeah, Hermione's Petrification did give an increased sense of seriousness as she was one of the Trio. Now you mention it, what Hermione does seem rash indeed. After PS/SS, I think Rowling meant to have one book with Harry and Ron while another (PoA) with Harry and Hermione in the climax. It was interesting to see what Harry and Ron did without Hermione. > > 7. Who did you think stole the diary from Harry? Was Ginny among the suspects? Joey: I remember suspecting Percy for a few moments - as he was shown to acting strangely throughout the book. Thanks for the interesting questions! From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Apr 22 13:49:21 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 13:49:21 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189173 > Carol responds: > Carol, quite sure that DD would not have drawn Sybil out of the Pensieve for Harry's benefit and explained the components of the Prophecy if he didn't believe in "the power that the Dark Lord has not" and the rest of it > Pippin: Let us suppose that Sybil, some time after Snape's defection, had confessed to Dumbledore in a fit of sherry-induced candor that she had made up the whole thing. What would Dumbledore have done differently? He would still have tried to protect the infant and child Harry, IMO, because he tried, always, to protect those who could least protect themselves. He would still have tried to get adult Harry to destroy the horcruxes, partly because Harry was uniquely gifted for the task but mostly because, if Harry accepted the mission of ridding the world of Voldemort, his life must be forfeit anyway. But Dumbledore learned of Harry's gifts by observation, not through the prophecy, and they weren't always what Dumbledore expected them to be. Occlumency, for example, was not one of them. There seems to be an idea that Dumbledore would not have chosen only one person if it weren't for the prophecy saying there was only one person who could defeat LV. But safety in numbers is a coward's safety, in the Gryffindor way of looking at things. It is either the safety of sheltering behind someone stronger, or of surviving because someone weaker or less fortunate than you was picked off instead. And Dumbledore would never knowingly have bet on a coward. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 16:31:25 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:31:25 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189174 Pippin wrote: > > > If Dumbledore believed in the prophecy, he wouldn't have thought he needed to make Harry do anything. He could have left everything to chance. His disbelief, ironically, made him act to bring the prophecy about. Carol earlier: > > > > Not necessarily. He seems to have thought (or known) that Harry and only Harry was "the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord" and acted accordingly. (Sure, Harry has his mother's love and the soul bit inside him, all of which fits with the Prophecy, but why not arm him with knowledge as well, especially Voldemort's past and his psychology, so that he'll understand what he's facing? And why not train him and test him to make sure that he doesn't fail? After all, the Prophecy only says "either [meaning one of the two] must die at the hand of the other." It doesn't say which of the two will be victorious. In any case, his knowing the Prophecy and acting on it does help to bring it about even though he's not one of the principals involved. > > > > Carol, quite sure that DD would not have drawn Sybil out of the Pensieve for Harry's benefit and explained the components of the Prophecy if he didn't believe in "the power that the Dark Lord has not" and the rest of it > > Nikkalmati responded: > > I don't get this. DD had no good reason to believe Harry would defeat the Dark Lord. His original plan was to get Harry killed. Then someone else could defeat the Dark Lord. As it turned out, Harry did not remain dead, but that was not part of DD's plan. At best it was a hope. He told Harry the prophecy, so he would understand why LV was after him and why he had to fight him. Wasn't the power to defeat the Dark Lord in the end his affinity with the Elder Wand - not something that could ever have been predicted. > > Nikkalmati > Carol responds: He would "vanquish the Dark Lord" by making him mortal. And But "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" suggests that Harry may somehow survive the encounter, as does "he will have power that the Dark Lord knows not, which DD would know can only mean love. "The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal suggests what DD tells Harry in CoS, that LV unknowingly transferred some of his powers to Harry, as becomes manifest in Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue. Parts of the Prophecy have already come true (from "born as the seventh month dies" to those who have thrice defied the Dark Lord (true, we have to take that part on faith, but maybe as members of the Order, the Potters had three encounters with DEs). And LV has certainly "marked" Harry (if not exactly as his equal), both literally (through the scar) and figuratively (as his nemesis--Harry himself puns grimly in OoP that he has always been "a marked man"). So between the elements of the Prophecy that have already come true through LV's acting on it and DD's knowledge that LV will makes sure that the final confrontation takes place, he has no choice but to believe (or act as if he believes) the Prophecy, testing Harry (as he confesses to Snape in DH that he has done) and arming him bit by bit with knowledge as the need arises. If he didn't believe in the Prophecy, he wouldn't single Harry out and watch him and, Snape points out in PoA, let him break rules that other students (except Ron and Hermione) aren't allowed to break. Certainly, DD knows that *he* can't kill Voldemort or he would have done so at the DoM. Only Harry, who has an accidental Horcrux in his scar, can do that. (His own wand's affinity with Voldemort's wand would also have given him a distinct advantage had Voldemort not prematurely discovered that he couldn't defeat it; DD must have known that, too.) The Elder Wand fiasco had less to do with Harry's victory over LV than the soul bit that enabled Harry to survive the first encounter and fight again or the power of Love that weakened Voldemort. Harry could still have used Expelliarmus whether or not he was master of the Elder Wand. Maybe the AK wouldn't have backfired on Voldemort if Harry had been using another wand, but if LV were wandless and friendless--and mortal--he could certainly be vanquished. Or Harry, who had intended all along, until he saw Snape's memories in the Pensieve, to *kill* Voldemort, would and could have done so. DD, by trying to place the masterless Elder Wand in Snape's hands, by making sure that Harry knew (when the time came) about the soulbit in his scar, and by setting up the riddles that would eventually let Harry know about the Elder Wand, was trying to cover all bases. In the long run, he partially failed, but nevertheless, he knew that Harry and only Harry could destroy Voldemort (even if he died in the process), and he acted accordingly. Carol, hoping that her position is clearer now From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 16:55:46 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:55:46 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Prophesy Manipulation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189175 Nikkalmati wrote: > > > > BTW we don't know all the prophecies in the DOM were unfulfilled. > > Perhaps they were mostly fulfilled and kept for research purposes. > Mike responded: > Oh, I didn't mean to imply that all of them were unfulfilled. DD did tell us that at least some of them were unfulfilled, that's what I was thinking of. I was surmising, from DD's point of view, that the unfulfilled were the ones nobody acted upon. Carol adds: Just a small point in support of Mike's idea. In OoP, some of the Prophecies are glowing (including the one about Harry and LV) while others have gone dark. I can only conclude that the darkened ones have been fulfilled while the others are either as yet unfulfilled or, like the Harry/LV one, only partially fulfilled. Had the Prophecy globe not been destroyed in OoP, I suspect that it would have gone dark when Voldemort died. I agree with Mike that someone who has heard the Prophecy must act either to thwart or fulfill it or it will remain dark. I would assume that *all* the Prophecies in the DoM have been made in someone's hearing or they wouldn't be in the Hall of Prophecies. (DD, not Sybil, must have put the Prophecy there or given it to the master of the hall; Sybil didn't even know that she made it.) In the case of the PoA prophecy (which was almost instantly fulfilled and never made it to the Hall of Prophecy), Harry tried to thwart Sirius Black (the person he thought was the Dark Lord's servant) and in so doing, enabled the real servant, Peter Pettigrew, to escape. Granted, they were only there in the first place because they had gone to Hagrid's hut and retrieved Scabbers, but he (and Hermione) also willingly entered the Shrieking Shack to confront the man they thought was the Dark Lord's servant (and save Ron from his clutches). Had he not done so, the true servant would not have escaped, fulfilling the Prophecy. Carol, who thinks that JKR had in mind prophecies like the one involving Oedipus but perhaps didn't carry out the plot as skilfully as Sophocles did From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 17:37:50 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:37:50 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189176 > > 1. I am pretty sure JKR was going for comic effect with the Mandrakes, but when I was rereading this chapter I found myself strangely disturbed by imagining young wizards and witches cutting the parts of the beings that seem so humanlike in their behavior. What part of the Mandrakes is being used in the potion? Are they going to be really and most sincerely dead before or during the process? Carol responds: I agree that JKR was going for comic effect with the Mandrakes, making them act like human teenagers with their parties and their acne (IIRC). Since Mandrakes are associated in my mind with Donne ("get with child a mandrake root"), and since the class is Herbology (not CoMC, which HRH haven't yet attended), I was unbothered by the fate of the Mandrakes. It was all an extended joke on JKR's part (not particularly funny to me--I don't always share her darkish and idiosyncratic sense of humor, but rather clever). After all, this is the WW where even animals--mostly reptiles and amphibians and occasionally insects but even unicorns--can end up as potion ingredients. Plants in the WW do sometimes seem to have a consciousness, usually one unfriendly to humans, for example, the Venomous Tentacula, but they're still just (magical) plants. > > 2. "Travels with Trolls" is one of the items Harry finds on his bed after the villain who stole the diary went through his trunk. What was the reason for Lockhart to assign it as one of the books for class, what did you think he was hoping students will learn from that book? Carol: The only thing Lockhart wanted his students to learn was how brave and wonderful he, Lockhart, supposedly was. If they accidentally learned something about Trolls (or Vampires or Banshees) along the way, that was simply his "expertise" on the subject coming through and proof of his genius as a teacher. Actually, though, I don't think he gave that aspect of the reading assignment a second thought. He just wanted them to buy (and preferably read) all his books, providing him with royalties and extending his fame. > 3. What was your first impression of Cornelius Fudge? Carol: Good question! I wish I could remember. We'd been led to believe through Hagrid's depiction of him as dependent on Dumbledore for advice that he was incompetent. I think I thought of him as weak and as a moral coward. Certainly, it wasn't a favorable impression. (The only time I actually liked Fudge was in "The Other Minister" in HBP, where he comes across as sympathetic and well-meaning and not altogether inept or corrupt.) > > 4. I know it will come as no surprise to anybody but I found myself if not sympathizing with Lucius Malfoy (his tone showed to me that he had little if any concerns about the plight of Muggleborns), but at least definitely cheering him on and hoping in vain that somebody in the later books had guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore out of school for good. Did you think that Board of Governors provided effective checks and balances to Dumbledore's powers? Carol: I definitely don't share that sentiment; Lucius Malfoy is one character who's clearly a villain from start to finish (though perhaps a bit less odious when he's lost his power and getting a taste of his own medicine from Voldemort). I'm quite sure that if it hadn't been for Dumbledore and his arrangements with Fawkes and the Sword of Gryffindor, Harry would not have survived his encounter with Diary!Tom. I don't know what to think of the Board of Governors. The mere fact that it included Lucius Malfoy and could be intimidated by him seems to show that it was ineffective. (DD, of course, shows that not even the MoM itself can keep him away from Hogwarts for long, and certainly, they'd be foolish to send him to Azkaban.) Probably, DD himself is the only one who can keep his powers in check--and it's his own fault that he ultimately becomes the victim of Voldemort's curse. He should have listened to Fake Moody: "Constant vigilance!" > 5. If you remember your first reaction, did you believe that Hagrid was guilty? Carol: Not of opening the Chamber a second time and Petrifying all those students, including Hermione--which meant that he probably wasn't guilty the first time, either. I didn't, of course, suspect Tom Riddle, but it was pretty clear that Hagrid was innocent and Fudge was grasping at straws. I may have sensed that Lucius Malfoy had something to do with it, but I don't think I put two and two together. I only knew that he was taking advantage of the situation to try to bring down DD. > > 6. What did you think about Hermione being a victim? Was it a clue for you that the monster target Muggleborns? Was Hermione rash in her actions and put herself at risk? Did readers worry how Ron and Harry would manage without her? Why do we think Rowling wanted them to manage without her? Carol: We already knew that the monster targeted Muggle-borns. After all, it was Slytherin's monster and he had planned to purge the school of "unworthy" students. Justin Finch-Fletchley feared that Harry (the supposed Heir of Slytherin) would attack him for that reason. All the other victims, including Colin Creevey, were also Muggle-borns (or "the Squib's cat"). Hermione was taking a calculated risk, as shown by her borrowing of Penelope's mirror, but she, being a true Gryffindor, thought that the risk was worth it (and certainly she provides the clue that Harry and Ron need through the crumpled paper in her hand later in the story). I did worry that they couldn't manage without her, and I'm not sure why JKR did it. Possibly, it was to show that Harry and Ron were brave and resourceful even though they weren't as clever as Hermione and to pave the way for Ron's love for Hermione (he seems to be more concerned about her than Harry is). And, of course, we're supposed to believe that Muggle-borns can be highly talented wizards and witches who belong in Hogwarts, so we're supposed to feel all the more strongly that the Heir of Slytherin is wrong and evil (which he is, don't get me wrong). Also, JKR has to get Hermione out of the way, just as he later gets Ron out of the way with the fallen wall, so that Harry can face the monster alone. It would have been extremely unwise and dangerous for her to enter the CoS with the boys given that she's a Muggle-born. > > 7. Who did you think stole the diary from Harry? Was Ginny among the suspects? Carol: I had no idea--certainly not Ginny. JKR's red herrings fooled me completely and I overlooked the clues, even after she was taken into the CoS. Carol, thanking Alla for the lively discussion questions From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Apr 24 17:59:06 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Apr 2010 17:59:06 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 4/25/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1272131946.18.319.m5@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189177 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday April 25, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.) 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URL: From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Apr 25 14:48:53 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 14:48:53 -0000 Subject: DD's plan -- Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189178 > Carol responds: > So between the elements of the Prophecy that have already come true through LV's acting on it and DD's knowledge that LV will makes sure that the final confrontation takes place, he has no choice but to believe (or act as if he believes) the Prophecy, testing Harry (as he confesses to Snape in DH that he has done) and arming him bit by bit with knowledge as the need arises. > > If he didn't believe in the Prophecy, he wouldn't single Harry out and watch him and, Snape points out in PoA, let him break rules that other students (except Ron and Hermione) aren't allowed to break. > > Certainly, DD knows that *he* can't kill Voldemort or he would have done so at the DoM. Pippin: Dumbledore knew that *no one* could kill Voldemort if he'd made a horcrux. He'd have known that long before the prophecy was made. The real question is why DD's other spells were so easily turned aside, and why a whole room full of hardened killers couldn't defend themselves, and why McGonagall, Shacklebolt and Slughorn together couldn't put a dent in Voldemort's defenses even when he had lost the power to harm them. Why couldn't someone turn Voldemort into a house plant, for heaven's sake? Dumbledore's a transfiguration genius and so is McGonagall, yet they can't seem to touch him. It's possible Dumbledore was holding back at the MoM, but what about McGonagall, Shacklebolt and Slughorn? They think Harry's *dead*. They can't be waiting for him to show up and save the day. They're doing their best, IMO, and not getting anywhere. Why? I think Snape gave us the answer when he so handily defeated Harry on the Hogwarts grounds. There's something that counts more than spellcraft. Voldemort is the greatest legillimens the world has ever seen. Dumbledore avoided Harry's eyes all through OOP because of it. At the MOM it's just as Dumbledore feared -- Voldemort can anticipate and guard against Dumbledore's every move, as well as pick up on the usefulness of Harry as a hostage. Even Snape might not be able to win a duel, because although he could conceal his intentions up to the last moment, he'd still have to communicate them to his wand -- and Voldemort's reflexes are plenty fast. But Snape's got the best chance of anybody, (at least until Harry reveals his unexpected ability to drive Voldie from his mind) so best to save him till the horcruxes are gone. It's logical to think that Harry, with the soul bit inside him, will have some affinities with Voldemort which might help him to find a horcrux, which Dumbledore had so far failed to do. The horcrux will be guarded with spells so lethal that just getting to it will be a challenge. If Harry's to be part of the horcrux hunting team, he must be trained to face danger, not to mention the fact that Voldemort is still trying to kill him and Harry has to live with that. This becomes more urgent once Dumbledore realizes there's more than one horcrux to be found. In any case, Harry's a logical addition to a horcrux hunting team. Why *wouldn't* Dumbledore want his help? Only his personal regard for Harry gives him second thoughts about it. But that was a late development. The only crazy thing about the plan was not including any adults. Why not some world class experts on dark magic, and a world class expert on Voldemort, and someone who was utterly loyal to Harry and a badass fighter too? Oh wait, I've just described Snape, Lupin, Dumbledore and Sirius. But Snape and Harry never could get along, while Dumbledore and Sirius got killed and Lupin turned out to be a coward. So that *was* part of the plan, I think -- it just didn't work out. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Apr 25 17:02:30 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 25 Apr 2010 17:02:30 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 4/25/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1272214950.12.43320.m5@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189179 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday April 25, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Mon Apr 26 21:25:38 2010 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:25:38 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 15: Aragog Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189180 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 15: Aragog. Harry doesn't understand the cryptic clue left by Dumbledore. Hagrid's clue is easier to understand but, despite looking all over the castle, there are no spiders to be found. In Herbology, Ernie says that Harry cannot be the Heir of Slytherin because he would never harm Hermione. During class Harry notices spiders heading for the Forbidden Forest. He and, reluctantly, Ron, decide to follow them. The trouble is, the common room doesn't clear out until midnight or after. The twins challenge them to Exploding Snap and they play until the common room is empty with Ginny watching quietly from Hermione's usual chair. As soon as everyone is in bed, Harry and Ron get the Invisibility Cloak and leave the castle, avoiding the mass of patrolling faculty and staff. They stop by Hagrid's hut to get Fang and enter the forest, following the parade of spiders. The Ford Anglia shows up. It appears to have gone wild. In the beams of its headlights Ron sees the large spiders called Acromantulas surrounding them. They are taken to a clearing deep in the forest where they meet Aragog. Aragog was the Acromantula whom Hagrid raised from an egg and who was believed to have caused the death of a student. He likes Hagrid but has never named the terror spiders fear. He won't tell Ron and Harry either. He does tell them that the student died in a bathroom. He then leaves them to his children to eat. The Anglia shows up again and helps Harry, Ron and Fang escape. Back in the castle Harry thinks about the clues Aragog gave him. He realizes that the dead student must be Moaning Myrtle. 1. Two weeks after Hermione has been petrified, Harry notes that Snape makes no mention of her absence in class. Should he have mentioned her absence this long after the attack? 2. Madam Pomfrey cautions Harry and Ron that the attacker might come back. Was this a vote of confidence for Hagrid? 3. Shipping Wars Special: a) Harry has to hold Ron back from fighting with Draco Malfoy during Potions when Draco talks against the petrified Hermione. b) Ron looks at Hermione's empty desk and gains courage to overcome his arachnaphobia and follow the spiders. c) The narrator, who usually gives us Harry's point of view, notices that Ginny is sitting in Hermione's usual chair. -- Did any of these instances convince you of a certain relationship or did any of these change your mind? 4. Ginny is subdued when she occupies Hermione's chair. Did anyone wonder about the difference between this quiet Ginny and the noisy, outgoing Ginny Ron described? Do you remember what you thought if you did notice the discrepancy? 5. Harry first notices the spiders during Herbology. After midnight there are still spiders heading toward the Forbidden Forest. Do spiders walk that slowly or are there that many spiders? 6. The Anglia has been trundling around the forest on its own all school year. What is its fuel? 7. The car is described as looking like it is greeting its master when it sees Ron. It appears when Harry and Ron are surrounded by Aragog's children. How sentient is the car? Did it come to protect Ron and Harry? 8. The acromantulas know what the monster is but refuse to name it. Is this an echo of "He Who Must Not Be Named?" Is this link to Voldemort a clue to what the monster is? 9. The Anglia stops at the edge of the forest but does not come out. Is it hiding, do you think, or is it territorial? Please add any questions you may have. NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 16, "The Chamber of Secrets", on or about 1 May, 2010. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Thu Apr 29 08:33:28 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 08:33:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 15: Aragog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189181 > 4. Ginny is subdued when she occupies Hermione's chair. Did anyone wonder about the difference between this quiet Ginny and the noisy, outgoing Ginny Ron described? Do you remember what you thought if you did notice the discrepancy? Joey: I was wondering what's wrong with her - shee seemed lonely. I thought she that she might have been over-awed by the grandeur of Hogwarts. I also wondered why she never seemed to have friends from her own year. That's surprising given Ron's description that she is outgoing. Was Colin Creevy, who worked with her during Charms, a friend at all? What about others? Also, I'm not sure if it was just her tryst with the Horcrux which rendered her friendless during her first year. Even later (in GoF, OoTP, HBP and DH), we get to know about her love life and her popularity amongst boys but nothing about her friends. Even in case of Neville and Luna, it seems a bit unnatural. How did she befriend Neville even during GoF days? She certainly called Luna "loony" during the initial stages of OoTP - only OoTP climax (and maybe the DA lessons) seemed to change things between them. > 5. Harry first notices the spiders during Herbology. After midnight there are still spiders heading toward the Forbidden Forest. Do spiders walk that slowly or are there that many spiders? Joey: LOL. There are that many spiders, I guess. :-) > 6. The Anglia has been trundling around the forest on its own all school year. What is its fuel? > 7. The car is described as looking like it is greeting its master when it sees Ron. It appears when Harry and Ron are surrounded by Aragog's children. How sentient is the car? Did it come to protect Ron and Harry? > 9. The Anglia stops at the edge of the forest but does not come out. Is it hiding, do you think, or is it territorial? Joey: I found the car as intrguing as you seem to have done. It seems to be quasi-sentient. Maybe it did not need much fuel when it was on ground? Or it developed an affinity towards the forest which gave it shelter and gained energy there to trundle around? I think Arthur put a charm on it to recognize its "master" or "owner" or "last user" - somewhat similar to the charm on snitches to recognize the first touch, I guess - and I do think it came to protect Ron (and Harry) for that reason. It seemed to have "sensed" their danger! I think it is hiding because it certainly seemed to "choose" to go to the forest after having been hit hard by the Whomping Willow. Wonder what others have to say about the Anglia. :-) Cheers, ~Joey, who found Ceridwen's questions very interesting :-) From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 29 09:07:14 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 02:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 15: Aragog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <483407.98615.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189182 1. Two weeks after Hermione has been petrified, Harry notes that Snape makes no mention of her absence in class. Should he have mentioned her absence this long after the attack? luirhys: Being a teacher, Harry expects that Snape would have at least acknowledged the fact that one of his students got attacked. Of course, we all know that it's asking too much. Anyway, it doesn't seem to be big a deal as Harry already knows how the potions master feels toward him, his friends and probably all gryffindors. 2. Madam Pomfrey cautions Harry and Ron that the attacker might come back. Was this a vote of confidence for Hagrid? luirhys: I don't think this was directed at Hagrid's innocence. but that she knows dark wizard/magic is involved and may take more that one person. 3. Shipping Wars Special: a) Harry has to hold Ron back from fighting with Draco Malfoy during Potions when Draco talks against the petrified Hermione. luirhys: I didn't read much into this as I felt that Ron was just naturally hot-headed. b) Ron looks at Hermione's empty desk and gains courage to overcome his arachnaphobia and follow the spiders. luirhys: As before, I didn't link this at once to romantic feelings on his part, just that she was one of his best friends and wanted her to be back soon. c) The narrator, who usually gives us Harry's point of view, notices that Ginny is sitting in Hermione's usual chair. luirhys: It might be also that it's not Ginny's presence that he notices here but Hermione's absence. -- Did any of these instances convince you of a certain relationship or did any of these change your mind? luirhys: I think this was too early a stage for me to really think on romantic links between the characters. 4. Ginny is subdued when she occupies Hermione's chair. Did anyone wonder about the difference between this quiet Ginny and the noisy, outgoing Ginny Ron described? Do you remember what you thought if you did notice the discrepancy? luirhys: Actually, I just thought that she might just still be shy around Harry. 5. Harry first notices the spiders during Herbology. After midnight there are still spiders heading toward the Forbidden Forest. Do spiders walk that slowly or are there that many spiders? luirhys: possibly both. But I doubt it was the same spiders that they saw during class. 6. The Anglia has been trundling around the forest on its own all school year. What is its fuel? luirhys: Being bewitched as it is, I think it has taken a life of its own. Not to mentioned that it probably feeded off the magic from the grounds. 7. The car is described as looking like it is greeting its master when it sees Ron. It appears when Harry and Ron are surrounded by Aragog's children. How sentient is the car? Did it come to protect Ron and Harry? luirhys: I was thinking of a dog actually. I did actually think it had an idea what was happening. 8. The acromantulas know what the monster is but refuse to name it. Is this an echo of "He Who Must Not Be Named?" Is this link to Voldemort a clue to what the monster is? luirhys: The first I thought of was Voldermort but since it was a creature, I assumed it must also be something connected to him. 9. The Anglia stops at the edge of the forest but does not come out. Is it hiding, do you think, or is it territorial? luirhys: It must have its own boundaries and it might have felt safer in the forbidden forest. Kind of how centaurs, and unicorns stay inside. Venturing out of the forest would mean crossing into human territory. "All it takes to fly is to hurl yourself at the ground... and miss." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 29 14:15:48 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:15:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 15: Aragog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189183 1. Two weeks after Hermione has been petrified, Harry notes that Snape makes no mention of her absence in class. Should he have mentioned her absence this long after the attack? Alla: LOL. He was probably thinking something along he sees no difference whether she is in class or not lines, or maybe he was glad that there is nobody in class who always knows the answer to his questions and was hoping she would be away as long as possible. 2. Madam Pomfrey cautions Harry and Ron that the attacker might come back. Was this a vote of confidence for Hagrid? Alla: Sure, I doubt staff believed in Hagrid's guilt. 3. Shipping Wars Special: a) Harry has to hold Ron back from fighting with Draco Malfoy during Potions when Draco talks against the petrified Hermione. b) Ron looks at Hermione's empty desk and gains courage to overcome his arachnaphobia and follow the spiders. c) The narrator, who usually gives us Harry's point of view, notices that Ginny is sitting in Hermione's usual chair. -- Did any of these instances convince you of a certain relationship or did any of these change your mind? Alla: See, I am sure I said it more than once before, I for the most part stayed away from shipping wars for two reasons: a) I cared little who will end up with who as long as they are alive and happy at the end and b) while I was not hundred percent sure Harry will end up with Ginny, I thought that somebody completely new (or Luna from the later books) are possible, I was always always 200% sure that Ron and Hermione will be together if they will survive the end. From the moment they met, it was obvious for me, couple who bickers like that in the romantic comedy way always ends up together in every book or movie I have read or seen before. So what I am trying to say and please, please shippers of Hermione and Harry and Ron and Harry (or whoever else), please do not take offence, I am just describing how I feel, not trying to belittle your views, but shipping wars bored me, because I have not seen the mystery and have not felt the slightest doubt. So after my rambling to answer your question, sure Ron's concern was understandable for me and another nod in their relationship, I am not sure I remember if I noticed every small thing like this, but definitely I knew they will be together. And see, I think Harry was missing his friend, not noticing Ginny just yet, good example how for me she left Harry/Ginny tiny bit more ambiguous. 4. Ginny is subdued when she occupies Hermione's chair. Did anyone wonder about the difference between this quiet Ginny and the noisy, outgoing Ginny Ron described? Do you remember what you thought if you did notice the discrepancy? Alla: I do not remember, but I am pretty sure that in general I thought that Ginny was a shy person, but when I am rereading it I really do think that she stick in the clues for feisty Ginny and did it well. Even more than Ron's description, I thought Ginny standing up to Malfoy was a great clue. 7. The car is described as looking like it is greeting its master when it sees Ron. It appears when Harry and Ron are surrounded by Aragog's children. How sentient is the car? Did it come to protect Ron and Harry? Alla: Well, we had seen several more or less sentinent magical items through the book, including lovely diary in this one, so sure, I think it is, but I just had a thought, Arthur tinkered with it, right? So maybe car's protection is at least partially fuelled by his love for the boys? 8. The acromantulas know what the monster is but refuse to name it. Is this an echo of "He Who Must Not Be Named?" Is this link to Voldemort a clue to what the monster is? Alla: I love this idea. But I think I remember actually that at that time I just found their refusal to be annoying similar to centaurs' unwillingness to help, but for one. Thanks for the great questions Ceridwen.