From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 1 17:03:19 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Aug 2010 17:03:19 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/1/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1280682199.500.64896.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189495 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 1, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Aug 7 18:01:13 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 7 Aug 2010 18:01:13 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/8/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1281204073.11.66640.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189496 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 8, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 7 22:20:20 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (amanitamuscaria) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 22:20:20 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189497 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5 : The Dementor The Weasleys, Harry and Hermione all make their way to Kings Cross in Ministry cars, where Mr. Weasley tells Harry not to go looking for Sirius Black. Harry, Ron and Hermione travel in a compartment with Professor Lupin, which is handy as Harry faints when Dementors board the train. Harry is embarrassed by his perceived weakness, especially when Malfoy finds out. Professor Dumbledore explains about Dementors, and announces the appointments of Lupin and Hagrid as teachers. Questions: Why do you think Mr. Weasley tells Harry not to look for Black? How well do you think the Dementor scene worked after the build-up, and why? What did Dumbledore's speech add to our knowledge of Dementors? Chocolate is good for you. Discuss. Do you suppose Remus has been a teacher before? What do you imagine are the requirements for teachers at Hogwarts? What did you make of Ron & Harry noticing Professor Snape's expression of loathing of Lupin? amanitamuscaria NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 6 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From thedossetts at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 01:39:32 2010 From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 01:39:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189498 Pat, de-lurking to answer chapter discussion questions for the very first time - > > Questions: > Why do you think Mr. Weasley tells Harry not to look for Black? I always assumed that Mr. Weasley knew about Sirius being Harry's godfather, and the other parts of the story (Sirius supposedly betraying Lily and James, etc.) and also knew Harry well enough to feel that he *might* go looking for Sirius - thus the warning. He was trying to warn Harry without saying why he needed to be warned - and protect him from a perceived danger. > > What did Dumbledore's speech add to our knowledge of Dementors? First thing that comes to my mind is the fact that dementors would go after you even if you were under an invisibility cloak. Also the fact that you wouldn't be able to explain to them that you weren't Sirius Black - that there was no reasoning with them. > > Chocolate is good for you. Discuss. This was one of the things that made me love JKR!! As a confirmed chocoholic, I have always felt that one of the best things for depression was chocolate - and isn't depression actually what the dementors leave you, after sucking out all your happiness? I thought this was wonderful - talked about it with my grown-up daughter who chooses not to read any Harry Potter, and even she agreed that it was great! :o) > > Do you suppose Remus has been a teacher before? The whole "Professor Remus Lupin" on his suitcase makes me think that he had taught before. I wondered if he was a tutor to werewolf-bitten children of wealthy parents - or even not-so-wealthy parents (which is why he was so impoverished himself - there can't be that many werewolf-bitten children in the wizarding world or we would probably have more legislation from the MOM about it.) > > What do you imagine are the requirements for teachers at Hogwarts? In the case of the DADA teacher, all you need to be is alive and breathing! :o) Other classes - the teachers seem to have a good grasp of their subject matter and handle the kids well. Professor McGonagall even lets Harry know in Book 7 that the teachers know enough to defend Hogwarts from Voldemort for a while, convincing me that they are quite talented. > > What did you make of Ron & Harry noticing Professor Snape's expression of > loathing of Lupin? Ron and Harry favor *anyone* that Snape loathes. I think they both actually look for it - it seems they always notice if Snape seems to loath someone. They also note that Snape dislikes Karkaroff in GOF. > > amanitamuscaria > Thanks, amanitamuscaria, for great questions. It was the chocolate question that grabbed me and convinced me to de-lurk for a minute! ~Pat, back to lurking again. From puduhepa98 at aol.com Sun Aug 8 01:54:28 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 01:54:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189499 > > Questions: > Why do you think Mr. Weasley tells Harry not to look for Black? > Nikkalmati Mr. Weasley is afraid Harry will hear Black is responsible for his parents' deaths, that he betrayed them, and be so enraged he seeks Black out to kill him. He is not far wrong. If Harry heard that (and he does) he would be enraged. He doesn't know how to find Black, however, and his friends (and Mr. Weasley's warning) keep him under control until he actually meets Black. > How well do you think the Dementor scene worked after the build-up, and why? Nikkalmati It was pretty scary. I had a little trouble knowing what was happening because we only learn what they are later. I found the stopping train and the bitter cold and the darkness very spooky. > What did Dumbledore's speech add to our knowledge of Dementors? > Nikkalmati Not a lot, except that they were officially approved, but very unpredictable and not rational. That makes them even more scary. > Chocolate is good for you. Discuss. Nikkalmati I guess everyone likes chocolate? Well, almost everyone. Chocolate makes you happy, at least it does me, especially if I am ordered to eat it! Dememtors take away your happiness and chocolate repaces it. > > Do you suppose Remus has been a teacher before? Nikkalmati I think he may have been, but no reference is made to what he did before. He has the knowledge and it would be hard for someone suddenly to pull a year's worth of lesson plans out of his head. He also has that heavy case with his initials on it, which indicates he has been traveling. He may have been teaching overseas or doing private tutoring. > What do you imagine are the requirements for teachers at Hogwarts? Nikkalmati They have to know Dumbledore? It does not appear anything other than graduating from a wizarding school is needed. Voldemort was told by Dippet to come back when he was older. DD turned him down, but probably not because he was not qualified. DD was going to turn Trelawny down, in part, because he did not like Divination. He gave her the job only to protect her. She did not seem to have any particular qualifications, but thought her lineage and her persuasive skills could get the job. Snape was told by LV to apply just shortly out of school and apparently was expected to succeed. Working at Hogwarts may not be considered a really plum position in the WW. > > What did you make of Ron & Harry noticing Professor Snape's expression of > loathing of Lupin? > Nikkalmati I expected it would be explained later. I did not think he was jealous of the position, but I also did not anticipate that they may have known each other. > Thank you, amanitamuscaria > > From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 8 02:43:22 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 02:43:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria" wrote: > Questions: Why do you think Mr. Weasley tells Harry not to look for Black? Alla: He was afraid for Harry. Chocolate is good for you. Discuss. Alla: Absolutely and without any doubt! Especially dark one. I also loved that JKR made chocolate a treatment against Darkness (dementors are darkness, right?) in her books. Do you suppose Remus has been a teacher before? Alla: Either that, even if it is not stated explicitly, or he had a natural gift of teaching in my opinion. But for me these twelve missing years make it a fair canon based speculation that he was. What do you imagine are the requirements for teachers at Hogwarts? Nikkalmati: They have to know Dumbledore? Alla: HAHA. I love that. I would change that a bit, they have to fit Dumbledore's plans. One thing for sure, talent for teaching could be present, but not a prerequisite. What did you make of Ron & Harry noticing Professor Snape's expression of loathing of Lupin? Alla: I thought that by now Harry can read Professor Snape pretty well, lol and did not doubt for one second that he indeed loathes Remus Lupin. Thanks Amanitamuscaria. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 8 17:02:52 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 8 Aug 2010 17:02:52 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/8/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1281286972.18.37921.m6@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189501 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 8, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 05:25:31 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 05:25:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189502 > > How well do you think the Dementor scene worked after the > > build-up, and why? > Nikkalmati > > It was pretty scary. I had a little trouble knowing what was > happening because we only learn what they are later. I found the > stopping train and the bitter cold and the darkness very spooky. Mike: Me too!... What, I hafta say more? OK, what was so scary was that they didn't seem to do any magic. Yeah, I know they're magical creatures, but it was just their presence that had such a dibillitating effect on Harry. At this point I'm thinking, How do you counter that? > > What did Dumbledore's speech add to our knowledge of Dementors? Mike: Like Pat, I noticed that Harry's Invisibility cloak was of no use, which made me even more concerned for Harry. There goes one of Harry's best tools, one that the magic was already present in and therefore wasn't reliant upon Harry's abilities. But other than that, Dumbledore's speech was about as useful as his first year warning about a horrible death on the third floor corridor. I.e. not much. > > Do you suppose Remus has been a teacher before? > > Nikkalmati > > I think he may have been, .... He may have been teaching overseas > or doing private tutoring. Mike: Remus is an enigma to me, right up to his death in DH. The tutoring guess is as good as any, but I don't think he would really call himself professor until he got his appointment to Hogwarts. I imagine he could have put the lettering on his case any time he wanted. What I didn't get was the whole battered and worn look. He's a wizard, for crying out loud, use a little magic Remus and fix up your clothes, your case, and yourself. > > What do you imagine are the requirements for teachers at Hogwarts? > > Nikkalmati > > They have to know Dumbledore? It does not appear anything other > than graduating from a wizarding school is needed. Mike: Well, somewhat after the fact, I figured Dumbledore brought in Lupin because of his connection to Black. But here's the thing, if DD believed the story and his own testimony about Black, why would he think that Lupin was going to be of any use? If DD really believed that Black had gone over to the dark side, Lupin would hold no sway over Black any more, now would he? At this point in the story, I didn't believe anything sinister about Dumbledore. But with all the facts in, I now think that Dumbledore knew full well that Black had never betrayed James and Lily. Dumbledore wasn't all knowing, but he was wise, and this story of betrayal made no sense with everything he knew of Black and the Potters. OTOH, Dumbledore couldn't have Black around to interfere with his plans for Harry. So he let him rot in Azkaban, made no effort to find out the truth, because the truth might prove inconvenient. And since the rest of the WW believed the story, well,... that made the "common knowledge" a convenient reason to keep Black locked up. > > What did you make of Ron & Harry noticing Professor Snape's > > expression of loathing of Lupin? Mike: At this point, I was starting to catch on to JKR's mis-directions. I didn't buy for a minute Harry and Ron's deduction that it was someone else getting the DADA position. Obviously, I didn't know it was personal nor any of the history between the two. But I sure figured there was some other reason. Quite frankly, I thought Harry did too. Harry did notice it was a little out of character for Snape to openly express an emotion that powerful. > > Thank you, amanitamuscaria Yes, Thank you, AM! Mike Here's some of my questions: In light of Dumbledore's speech at the end of the chapter, who authorized the Dementors' search of the Hogwarts Express? The driver obviously stopped for them, so it must have been set up in advance, wasn't it? What do you think of this decision? From stories1 at fuse.net Tue Aug 10 03:39:27 2010 From: stories1 at fuse.net (mhornbeam) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 03:39:27 -0000 Subject: Could someone point me... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189503 Hi all, long time member, first time poster I am sure that someone has noticed this so could somebody point me to the right thread... In DH The Prince's Tale chapter Snape is shown getting the instructions on the identical Potters from Dumbledore's portrait. How did Snape get into Hogwarts, specifically the Headmaster's office before the Ministry fell and he was put in charge of Hogwarts? Thanks for all help Mavis From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue Aug 10 06:39:41 2010 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 06:39:41 -0000 Subject: Could someone point me... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhornbeam" wrote: Mavis: > Hi all, > > long time member, first time poster > > I am sure that someone has noticed this so could somebody point me to the right thread... > > In DH The Prince's Tale chapter Snape is shown getting the instructions on the identical Potters from Dumbledore's portrait. How did Snape get into Hogwarts, specifically the Headmaster's office before the Ministry fell and he was put in charge of Hogwarts? > > Thanks for all help Geoff: According to the database, the first time round discussions on Chapter 33 began at post 184812. I took a quick glance at this post and there are a lot of messages following on which may (or may not!) cover your question. I suggest you start from there and work forward. From jlmss090505 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 00:16:59 2010 From: jlmss090505 at yahoo.com (jlmss090505) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:16:59 -0000 Subject: Translation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189505 Hi, everyone! I'm a newcomer and not native. I have a question about a sentence in HP and Sorcerer's Stone (p43). Monday. This reminded Harry of something. If it was Monday - and you could usually count on Dudley to know the days of the week, because of television - then tomorrow, Tuesday, was Harry's eleventh birthday. Of course, his birthdays were never exactly fun - last year, the Dursleys had given him a coat hanger and a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks. Still, you weren't eleven every day. What does the last sentence mean? Can anyone help me? Thanks. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From margdean56 at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 01:33:37 2010 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:33:37 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Translation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189506 On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 6:16 PM, jlmss090505 wrote: > > > > Hi, everyone! > > I'm a newcomer and not native. > > I have a question about a sentence in HP and Sorcerer's Stone (p43). > > Monday. This reminded Harry of something. If it was Monday - and you > could usually count on Dudley to know the days of the week, because of > television - then tomorrow, Tuesday, was Harry's eleventh birthday. Of > course, his birthdays were never exactly fun - last year, the Dursleys > had given him a coat hanger and a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks. > Still, you weren't eleven every day. > > What does the last sentence mean? > > Can anyone help me? Thanks. In English idiom, to say "[something doesn't happen] every day" means that it's an unusual or notable event. Say you were in New York City, for instance, and saw a circus elephant walking down Fifth Avenue. You might turn to the person next to you and say, "Now, *that's* not something you see every day!" Here I think Harry means, more or less, that tomorrow is going to be the only eleventh birthday he'll ever have, so it's special--at least to him! Hope that helps! --Margaret Dean From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 01:41:34 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 01:41:34 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189507 Why do you think Mr. Weasley tells Harry not to look for Black? dzturtleshell: I never realized that was strange until now! I suppose he must have at least known Black was one of James' good friends and a double agent. I don't know if he'd know about the godfather part or the Secret Keeper part, it seems like that part was kept under wraps and I don't think Arthur was involved with law enforcement or the Order during the first war. How well do you think the Dementor scene worked after the build-up, and why? dzturtleshell: The Dementor scene was pretty scary to me! I just wish Harry hadn't passed out so we could have seen the rest of the Dementor's visit in the compartment! What did Dumbledore's speech add to our knowledge of Dementors? dzturtleshell: Dumbledore essentially let us know that Dementors are highly perceptive and merciless. Dumbledore didn't make me feel much better about them, except for lulling me into believing that they must not be completely unreasonable/out-of-control to allow them to be stationed around the school. Chocolate is good for you. Discuss. dzturtleshell: There's a chemical in chocolate that elevates mood. Also, carbohydrates (sugars) increase serotonin release, which will also elevate your mood. Biologically speaking, chocolate is fantastic for you! Do you suppose Remus has been a teacher before? dzturtleshell: I didn't think Remus had been a teacher before, but we don't know much about any form of education outside of Hogwarts. I think Dumbledore would have let any other werewolf-bitten children into Hogwarts as he did with Lupin, so there probably weren't too many opportunities for him to tutor outcast werewolf kids. Maybe he was teaching overseas. Or maybe he just added "Professor" to the suitcase when he got the job. What do you imagine are the requirements for teachers at Hogwarts? dzturtleshell: Pretty sure you just have to be deemed worthy by the current Headmaster. (And if the Headmaster can't find anyone worthy & willing to teach, even a ghost, the Ministry will send in a spy). Harry pointed out that you don't even have to be a "fully-qualified" wizard when Hagrid's promotion was announced. What did you make of Ron & Harry noticing Professor Snape's expression of loathing of Lupin? dzturtleshell: Any enemy of Snape is a friend of Harry (at this point at least...). I assumed there was a history between them, the wizarding world is a small world, after all. **Mike's question: In light of Dumbledore's speech at the end of the chapter, who authorized the Dementors' search of the Hogwarts Express? The driver obviously stopped for them, so it must have been set up in advance, wasn't it? What do you think of this decision? dzturtleshell: I was always sure that Dumbledore had agreed to the search of the train, and thought it was senseless. Why not just have the Dementors there when everyone got off the train at Hogsmeade? Why not have the Dementors search the train at King's Cross when they got on when the parents were around? Why would you stop the train in the middle of nowhere in a rainstorm?? But I figured it was used to make the story more interesting. A few things I wondered about in this chapter: **Why was Lupin on the train at all? I get that he's not wealthy, but couldn't he have just apparated to Hogsmeade and walked over from there? Did Dumbledore ask him to take the train to watch over Harry during the Dementor's search? If so, how could he have known Harry & co would happen to sit in the same compartment with Lupin? **Why did the lights go out when the Dementors boarded the train? They attacked in daylight in OoTP, so they can handle light... I assume it was to make the scene scarier for the reader, but can anyone think of a real reason? **I feel like it's fairly well known that Dementors have an overwhelming effect on individuals with a traumatic past, so shouldn't everyone (adults at least) have expected Harry to have that reaction? They all seem somewhat surprised that he was overcome by being forced to relive the vicious murder of his parents... And why wasn't anyone worried about Ginny?! Thanks for the questions! ~ dzturtleshell :) From bart at moosewise.com Wed Aug 11 02:38:14 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:38:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Translation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C620D16.8060704@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189508 On 8/10/2010 8:16 PM, jlmss090505 wrote: > Monday. This reminded Harry of something. If it was Monday - and you > could usually count on Dudley to know the days of the week, because of > television - then tomorrow, Tuesday, was Harry's eleventh birthday. Of > course, his birthdays were never exactly fun - last year, the Dursleys > had given him a coat hanger and a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks. > Still, you weren't eleven every day. > > What does the last sentence mean? > Bart: It is a form of what is called "understatement", a mildly humorous way of saying something large as if it were much smaller. Birthdays are rare, and the 11th birthday comes only once in a lifetime. Bart From technomad at intergate.com Wed Aug 11 03:41:50 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:41:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Translation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100810224150.27mo8bzwkkoggw0o@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189509 Quoting jlmss090505 : > > Hi, everyone! > > I'm a newcomer and not native. > > I have a question about a sentence in HP and Sorcerer's Stone (p43). > > Monday. This reminded Harry of something. If it was Monday - and you > could usually count on Dudley to know the days of the week, because of > television - then tomorrow, Tuesday, was Harry's eleventh birthday. Of > course, his birthdays were never exactly fun - last year, the Dursleys > had given him a coat hanger and a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks. > Still, you weren't eleven every day. > > What does the last sentence mean? > > Can anyone help me? Thanks. I'd say that it means that, even without presents or a party, his birthday's special to him---that it means something to him to be eleven, instead of merely ten. Poor kid... ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 11 07:16:33 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:16:33 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Mike > > Here's some of my questions: > In light of Dumbledore's speech at the end of the chapter, who authorized the Dementors' search of the Hogwarts Express? The driver obviously stopped for them, so it must have been set up in advance, wasn't it? What do you think of this decision? > AmanitaM now - I wondered whether the Dementors had stopped the train, rather than that it was an arranged raid - that Lupin goes to see the train driver could work either way. I thought he might be checking on whether the driver was able to continue, at the time, but it may have been to ask if he knew who'd set the raid up. Dolores may already be around, and it does see to be her style ... From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 08:21:04 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 01:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor Message-ID: <863659.6947.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189511 Why do you think Mr. Weasley tells Harry not to look for Black? luirhys: Of course, Mr. Weasley would know that Harry is a bit high strong. After the events of the 2 previous years, he knows that Harry (unknowingly) invites trouble unto himself. Possibly, he knows that if Harry would be given the whole truth, He would take it upon himself to get revenge for his parents. I don't really think he would though, do you? What did Dumbledore's speech add to our knowledge of Dementors? luirhys: That Dementors are essentially blind and rely on their senses. I wonder though if you could really "talk" to Dementors. And also if you could get near them enough without collapsing. Fudge seems to have no problem being in their company though. Chocolate is good for you. Discuss. luirhys: It certainly would warm you up after experiencing your worst fears. I imagine hot chocolate would be better though. Do you suppose Remus has been a teacher before? uirhys: I haven't thought of it before.. but it does say "professor" on his suitcase. So possibly, he has been a teacher before, maybe a muggle school? What do you imagine are the requirements for teachers at Hogwarts? dzturtleshell: "Harry pointed out that you don't even have to be a "fully-qualified" wizard when Hagrid's promotion was announced. " luirhys: Too true. I guess Dumbledore will go with a person's strong points. Hagrid being very familiar and sort of an expert on magical creatures, is qualified enough to teach them to students. Never mind that he did not graduate himself. After all, there is little wand waving for it to truly matter. In this subject, at least. For other subjects, this might also be the case-DADA being the exception. Remember that it has been cursed for more than a decade, and people would already know that no one ever got past 1 year of teaching it. It would be understandable that DD is desperate and could take anyone he could get. What did you make of Ron & Harry noticing Professor Snape's expression of loathing of Lupin? luirhys: Definitely wanted to get some backstory on that when I first read it. **Mike's question: In light of Dumbledore's speech at the end of the chapter, who authorized the Dementors' search of the Hogwarts Express? The driver obviously stopped for them, so it must have been set up in advance, wasn't it? What do you think of this decision? luirhys: Actually I imagined the driver going "gee, those dementors are scary, MUST STOP." although, now it really sounds stupid. A few things I wondered about in this chapter: **Why was Lupin on the train at all? I get that he's not wealthy, but couldn't he have just apparated to Hogsmeade and walked over from there? Did Dumbledore ask him to take the train to watch over Harry during the Dementor's search? If so, how could he have known Harry & co would happen to sit in the same compartment with Lupin? luirhys: this sounds stupid but possibly there is anti-werewolf legislation in effect? possibly Lupin's actions and travels are monitored. **Why did the lights go out when the Dementors boarded the train? They attacked in daylight in OoTP, so they can handle light... I assume it was to make the scene scarier for the reader, but can anyone think of a real reason? luirhys: side effect? the way they drain all energy/happiness. Obviously the lights in the train are run by magic and not electricity. Although, it makes me think why its billowing steam at all if its "magic train" **I feel like it's fairly well known that Dementors have an overwhelming effect on individuals with a traumatic past, so shouldn't everyone (adults at least) have expected Harry to have that reaction? They all seem somewhat surprised that he was overcome by being forced to relive the vicious murder of his parents... And why wasn't anyone worried about Ginny?! > luirhys: I guess nobody thought of that of course. Him being the only survivor of a killing curse might also been one of the very few who would faint when near dementors. lui, who really likes these questions. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 10:55:39 2010 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:55:39 -0000 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189512 John: > Still, you weren't eleven every day. > > What does the last sentence mean? > > Can anyone help me? Thanks. Ceridwen: As everyone else is saying, it means that you don't have your eleventh birthday every day. I don't know if you're studying British or American English but, if you're learning American English, you may be more familiar with, "Still, you *didn't turn* eleven every day." Because, of course, once he has his eleventh birthday he *will* be eleven every day until he turns twelve. Both phrases, the original and my slight alteration, refer to having his eleventh birthday. Ceridwen. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed Aug 11 22:51:59 2010 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:51:59 -0000 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlmss090505" wrote: John: > Hi, everyone! > I'm a newcomer and not native. > I have a question about a sentence in HP and Sorcerer's Stone (p43). > Monday. This reminded Harry of something. If it was Monday - and you > could usually count on Dudley to know the days of the week, because of > television - then tomorrow, Tuesday, was Harry's eleventh birthday. Of > course, his birthdays were never exactly fun - last year, the Dursleys > had given him a coat hanger and a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks. > Still, you weren't eleven every day. > What does the last sentence mean? > Can anyone help me? Thanks. Geoff: As a native UK English speaker, I would use this in a downbeat, perhaps deprecating manner. As an imaginary example, I might say: "I went to London last week. The weather was bad, it rained most of the time, the train broke down on the way and the day I wanted to go to the Changing of the Guard, there was a bomb scare and it was cancelled. Still, I don't go to London every day." If you know the Winnie-the-Pooh books, my wife and I will refer to someone as an Eeyore. This sort of comment is a bit Eeyore-ish. From puduhepa98 at aol.com Thu Aug 12 03:20:23 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 03:20:23 -0000 Subject: Could someone point me... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhornbeam" wrote: > > Hi all, > > long time member, first time poster > > I am sure that someone has noticed this so could somebody point me to the right thread... > > In DH The Prince's Tale chapter Snape is shown getting the instructions on the identical Potters from Dumbledore's portrait. How did Snape get into Hogwarts, specifically the Headmaster's office before the Ministry fell and he was put in charge of Hogwarts? > > Thanks for all help > Mavis > Nikkalmati I didn't read the posts for several months after DH came out, so this is a real puzzle for me too. DD is dead. The school is not in session. Has anyone been named to the post? Didn't DD say the castle would recognize Snape, if necessary? Nikkalmati From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Aug 12 16:40:04 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:40:04 -0000 Subject: Could someone point me... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189515 Nikkalmati: > > I didn't read the posts for several months after DH came out, so this is a real puzzle for me too. DD is dead. The school is not in session. Has anyone been named to the post? Didn't DD say the castle would recognize Snape, if necessary? Pippin: Canon doesn't say, but since Snape and Dumbledore planned it all, I'm sure they wouldn't neglect giving Snape a way to get into the castle and Dumbledore's office. McGonagall was acting head and she would have trusted Dumbledore's portrait, so it would have been easy for it to find out passwords and such and convey that information to Snape. Also, Filch probably wouldn't believe that Snape had gone bad and would help him, and he knows several secret passages into the school. I get the impression anyway that the castle's protective magic is less of a factor when school is not in session and there are no students in residence to protect. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 13 15:05:34 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:05:34 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189516 > Questions: > Why do you think Mr. Weasley tells Harry not to look for Black? Pippin: Although Fudge says that the worst that Black did (betraying the Potters) isn't widely known, he's not keeping it a secret. He freely shares it with Hagrid, McGonagall, Flitwick and Rosmerta. Arthur has obviously heard something too, and Harry's question, "Why would I go after someone who wants to kill me?" or words to that effect, points us at what it is. Harry thinks he has a right to go after Voldemort for killing his parents (as Arthur may have heard from Ron) and he might think he should go after Black as well. > > How well do you think the Dementor scene worked after the build-up, and why? > What did Dumbledore's speech add to our knowledge of Dementors? Pippin: I was prepared for something terrifying but the dementor was much eerier and much stranger than anything we had encountered in the WW so far except for Voldemort himself. The monsters Harry encountered previously had been terrifying because of their size and strength: trolls, gigantic three-headed dogs, giant spiders and the basilisk. Dumbledore's speech tells us that Harry's invisibility cloak won't protect him, that Dementors are merciless and they will seize any excuse to harm a human, even a child. > > Chocolate is good for you. Discuss. Perhaps Snape's teeth are so bad because he overmedicated > > Do you suppose Remus has been a teacher before? > What do you imagine are the requirements for teachers at Hogwarts? Pippin: My personal theory is that the battered briefcase with its worn lettering belonged to a relative of Lupin's, perhaps his father. That would fit with all the people in canon who set their hearts on careers because they're trying to live up to their fathers' example. I don't know if there are any official requirements for teaching at Hogwarts. You don't even have to be alive, witness Binns. Apparently the headmaster can select whomever he likes, though, as in the case of werewolf Lupin, there may be protests. > > What did you make of Ron & Harry noticing Professor Snape's expression of > loathing of Lupin? Pippin: I was sure there was something personal behind it. As for the other questions that have come up: I think the Ministry ordered the train to be inspected -- I don't think the dementors did it on their own, although since they can make lights and fires and even stars go out or seem to go out, it's conceivable that the train lost power to its engine as well as its lamps when they arrived. I suspect Lupin doesn't find it easy to travel: possibly he can't afford floo powder and finds apparation difficult after a transformation. It's not unheard of for a teacher to take the Hogwarts express: nobody thinks it's odd when Slughorn does it. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 13 15:36:39 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:36:39 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189517 > Mike: > Well, somewhat after the fact, I figured Dumbledore brought in Lupin because of his connection to Black. But here's the thing, if DD believed the story and his own testimony about Black, why would he think that Lupin was going to be of any use? If DD really believed that Black had gone over to the dark side, Lupin would hold no sway over Black any more, now would he? Pippin: What about Lupin's connection to James? I don't think Dumbledore believed that Lupin could have any sway over Black, but at this point Dumbledore needed a DADA teacher who really knew his stuff and could be counted on to protect Harry. Mike: > At this point in the story, I didn't believe anything sinister about Dumbledore. But with all the facts in, I now think that Dumbledore knew full well that Black had never betrayed James and Lily. Dumbledore wasn't all knowing, but he was wise, and this story of betrayal made no sense with everything he knew of Black and the Potters. Pippin: Dumbledore's own dearest friend had betrayed him and gone to the dark side, why wouldn't he believe that the same thing could have happened to James? Don't forget that Sirius wasn't sent to Azkaban for betraying the Potters, he was sent there for the daylight murder of thirteen people. If he was capable of that, who could doubt that he'd set up the Potters as well? I think the parallels between Grindelwald and Sirius made it all too easy for Dumbledore to suspect -- both brilliant, powerful, good-looking wizards with a troubled history and a tendency, which Dumbledore knew of but chose to discount, towards cruelty and violence. Indeed, I think Sirius's great good looks are in the story only for that reason, so that we'll see a resemblance when the time comes. He seems to be made for some character to fall hopelessly in love with, but no one ever does, millions of swooning fans aside. Grindelwald though... Pippin From d2dmiles at yahoo.de Fri Aug 13 21:49:48 2010 From: d2dmiles at yahoo.de (Miles) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:49:48 +0200 Subject: Translation References: Message-ID: <05DB2C32764D470C942D55AB1815A108@miles> No: HPFGUIDX 189518 Ceridwen wrote: > John: >> Still, you weren't eleven every day. >> >> What does the last sentence mean? >> >> Can anyone help me? Thanks. > > Ceridwen: > Because, of course, once he has his eleventh birthday he *will* be > eleven every day until he turns twelve. Both phrases, the original > and my slight alteration, refer to having his eleventh birthday. Miles: I cannot speak for John, but I think the phrase "you weren't eleven every day" is a bit surprising for a non-native speaker. At least it is for me, though I understood the meaning from the context. If you understand it literally, it does not make much sense. Native speakers will understand (and use) such an idiomatic phrase without thinking too much about it, but if you don't know it... Miles From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 13 23:50:39 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:50:39 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189519 Mike: > At this point in the story, I didn't believe anything sinister about Dumbledore. But with all the facts in, I now think that Dumbledore knew full well that Black had never betrayed James and Lily. Dumbledore wasn't all knowing, but he was wise, and this story of betrayal made no sense with everything he knew of Black and the Potters. Pippin: Dumbledore's own dearest friend had betrayed him and gone to the dark side, why wouldn't he believe that the same thing could have happened to James? Alla: Granted it had been some time since I reread DH, but this is not how I remember the events. I was under the impression that Grindelwald was *always* on dark side, where Dumbledore temporarily traveled too (all this muggle domination for their own good) and then left. I do not remember Dumbledore being in shock that his best friend and object of his affection suddenly got all those Dark Lord desires and started killing people. Thus the analogy just does not work for me and since I agree with Mike completely my answer as to why Dumbledore will not believe the same is because same never happened in my opinion, something very different happened. And yes, since all it took for Dumbledore is one conversation with Sirius in PoA to believe in his innocence, I am also under opinion that Dumbledore never happened. Pippin: Don't forget that Sirius wasn't sent to Azkaban for betraying the Potters, he was sent there for the daylight murder of thirteen people. If he was capable of that, who could doubt that he'd set up the Potters as well? Alla: Huh, I always thought he was sent in Azkaban for both events. What about Dumbledore giving "evidence" that Sirius was Potters secret keeper at the hearing? So want to shake him and ask where he got this "evidence" since it was a big bold lie and he had a nerve to present it as truth. JMO, Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Aug 14 01:26:10 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 01:26:10 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189520 > Alla: > > Granted it had been some time since I reread DH, but this is not how I remember the events. I was under the impression that Grindelwald was *always* on dark side, where Dumbledore temporarily traveled too (all this muggle domination for their own good) and then left. I do not remember Dumbledore being in shock that his best friend and object of his affection suddenly got all those Dark Lord desires and started killing people. Pippin: If Grindelwald was *always* on the Dark Side, he wouldn't have been a welcome guest in Bathilda's home and Dumbledore wouldn't have wanted to be associated with him. Dumbledore says that he knew in his heart was Grindelwald was, but he closed his eyes to it. It wasn't until the argument with Aberforth became a fight that Grindelwald lost control and what Dumbledore had sensed in him sprang "into terrible being." Certainly Dumbledore was shocked by the fight -- he wasn't expecting an attack on his brother, or his sister's death. He wanted Gellert to use "only the force that was necessary and no more" and he made himself believe that Gellert was capable of restraint. I think Dumbledore believed that he sensed a similar darkness in Sirius, to which James was closing his eyes. It was an illusion, just as Snape believes the illusion that Harry is as arrogant as James, and Dumbledore is closing his eyes to it, or Harry believes the illusion that Draco is like Lucius and Dumbledore is closing his eyes to that. Of course Sirius never showed any ambitions towards gaining political power by force, but Dumbledore hadn't had such ideas until Grindelwald put them in his head -- and then he encouraged and aided Grindelwald in them. He might have feared that Voldemort had done the same thing with Sirius. Alla: > And yes, since all it took for Dumbledore is one conversation with Sirius in PoA to believe in his innocence, I am also under opinion that Dumbledore never happened. Pippin: There's more than a conversation. If Sirius had wanted to kill Harry or take him to the Dark Lord, he'd had the chance already. That at least proved that Sirius was not a crazed murderer who was out for Harry's blood, and the shape of Harry's patronus gave evidence that the story of the animagi was not a fabrication. > Pippin: > > Don't > forget that Sirius wasn't sent to Azkaban for betraying the Potters, he was sent > there for the daylight murder of thirteen people. If he was capable of that, who > could doubt that he'd set up the Potters as well? > > Alla: > > Huh, I always thought he was sent in Azkaban for both events. What about Dumbledore giving "evidence" that Sirius was Potters secret keeper at the hearing? Pippin: What hearing? There was no trial. Dumbledore would have been questioned by the Ministry, rather as Harry was after Dumbledore's death. Dumbledore gave evidence of what he knew, which was that James had insisted on using Sirius as his secret keeper, despite Dumbledore's warnings that someone close to the Potters was passing information on their movements to Voldemort. That was not a lie, so far as we know. The liars were James and Sirius, who pretended that Sirius, not Pettigrew, was the secret keeper. It all fit together, or seemed to. Sirius was the spy, he had betrayed the Potters, and then he had gone berserk and murdered thirteen people. There really was not, at the time, any other credible explanation for how those people had died. Even though Sirius says it should have been obvious to him what Peter was, the fact is it was never obvious to anybody. Everyone thought that Peter was utterly loyal to Lily and James -- *he* was the one whom everyone considered unthinkable as a traitor. If Sirius seemed to Dumbledore to be another Gellert, then Pettigrew probably seemed another Elphias Doge -- a dim but loyal friend. And indeed it doesn't seem that Peter ever killed or betrayed anyone out of malice -- only out of a desire to spare his own wretched skin. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 02:58:47 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 02:58:47 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189521 > Pippin: > If Grindelwald was *always* on the Dark Side, he wouldn't have been a welcome guest in Bathilda's home and Dumbledore wouldn't have wanted to be associated with him. Dumbledore says that he knew in his heart was Grindelwald was, but he closed his eyes to it. It wasn't until the argument with Aberforth became a fight that Grindelwald lost control and what Dumbledore had sensed in him sprang "into terrible being." Alla: I thought Dumbledore would not have wanted to associate with his younger self either. Of course till the fight there were no murderous consequences of who Grindelwald was, but in my opinion young Gellert and Dumbledore had pretty much the same ideas and same desires and the only difference was IMO that Ariana's death shocked those ideas out of Dumbledore's head and Grindelwald went on from theory to practice. Pippin: > Certainly Dumbledore was shocked by the fight -- he wasn't expecting an attack on his brother, or his sister's death. He wanted Gellert to use "only the force that was necessary and no more" and he made himself believe that Gellert was capable of restraint. Alla: Still to me very far from Sirius' situation. Pippin: > Of course Sirius never showed any ambitions towards gaining political power by force, but Dumbledore hadn't had such ideas until Grindelwald put them in his head -- and then he encouraged and aided Grindelwald in them. He might have feared that Voldemort had done the same thing with Sirius. Alla: My point is that Dumbledore always saw what was in Grindelwald's head and the only devlopment that happened was that he went from theory to practice. IMO of course. >> > Alla: > > > > Huh, I always thought he was sent in Azkaban for both events. What about Dumbledore giving "evidence" that Sirius was Potters secret keeper at the hearing? > > Pippin: > > What hearing? There was no trial. Dumbledore would have been questioned by the Ministry, rather as Harry was after Dumbledore's death. Dumbledore gave evidence of what he knew, which was that James had insisted on using Sirius as his secret keeper, despite Dumbledore's warnings that someone close to the Potters was passing information on their movements to Voldemort. Alla: I did not say that there was a trial. However, what I remember (and of course I cannot find the quote when I need it GRRRR) is that canon calls it a hearing and for all we know there was some mockery of the hearing held where everything was predetermined, and for all we know Dumbledore was called as a witness. My recollection is that canon does not say that Dumbledore gave the evidence of what he knew, that James insisted on using Sirius as a secret keeper. As far as I remember canon is much more damning to the bastard IMO. Boy I have not talked about this action of dear old headmaster for a while and I am getting angry with him all over again when I am thinking about it lol. As far as I remember canon says that Dumbledore gave evidence that Sirius *was** a secret keeper and Dumbledore could not have known that, because all that he knew was as you said that James insisted on Sirius' being a secret keeper and he was not. JMO, Alla From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 14 09:09:05 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:09:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > > Pippin: > > If Grindelwald was *always* on the Dark Side, he wouldn't have been a welcome guest in Bathilda's home and Dumbledore wouldn't have wanted to be associated with him. Dumbledore says that he knew in his heart was Grindelwald was, but he closed his eyes to it. It wasn't until the argument with Aberforth became a fight that Grindelwald lost control and what Dumbledore had sensed in him sprang "into terrible being." > > Alla: > > I thought Dumbledore would not have wanted to associate with his younger self either. Of course till the fight there were no murderous consequences of who Grindelwald was, but in my opinion young Gellert and Dumbledore had pretty much the same ideas and same desires and the only difference was IMO that Ariana's death shocked those ideas out of Dumbledore's head and Grindelwald went on from theory to practice. > > > Pippin: > > Certainly Dumbledore was shocked by the fight -- he wasn't expecting an attack on his brother, or his sister's death. He wanted Gellert to use "only the force that was necessary and no more" and he made himself believe that Gellert was capable of restraint. > > Alla: > > Still to me very far from Sirius' situation. > > > Pippin: > > Of course Sirius never showed any ambitions towards gaining political power by force, but Dumbledore hadn't had such ideas until Grindelwald put them in his head -- and then he encouraged and aided Grindelwald in them. He might have feared that Voldemort had done the same thing with Sirius. > > Alla: > > My point is that Dumbledore always saw what was in Grindelwald's head and the only devlopment that happened was that he went from theory to practice. IMO of course. > > > > >> > Alla: > > > > > > Huh, I always thought he was sent in Azkaban for both events. What about Dumbledore giving "evidence" that Sirius was Potters secret keeper at the hearing? > > > > Pippin: > > > > What hearing? There was no trial. Dumbledore would have been questioned by the Ministry, rather as Harry was after Dumbledore's death. Dumbledore gave evidence of what he knew, which was that James had insisted on using Sirius as his secret keeper, despite Dumbledore's warnings that someone close to the Potters was passing information on their movements to Voldemort. > > > Alla: > > I did not say that there was a trial. However, what I remember (and of course I cannot find the quote when I need it GRRRR) is that canon calls it a hearing and for all we know there was some mockery of the hearing held where everything was predetermined, and for all we know Dumbledore was called as a witness. My recollection is that canon does not say that Dumbledore gave the evidence of what he knew, that James insisted on using Sirius as a secret keeper. As far as I remember canon is much more damning to the bastard IMO. Boy I have not talked about this action of dear old headmaster for a while and I am getting angry with him all over again when I am thinking about it lol. As far as I remember canon says that Dumbledore gave evidence that Sirius *was** a secret keeper and Dumbledore could not have known that, because all that he knew was as you said that James insisted on Sirius' being a secret keeper and he was not. > > JMO, > > Alla > AM now - To me, it seemed as if Dumbledore was so sure of his intellect, his superior mind, that he frightened himself deeply of how close he'd come to Grindelwald's path. I think it's the only time JKR came close to writing the grey territory some of us saw Snape inhabiting. With that in mind, I can see how Albus might have thought Sirius, with his family background, and, we're not told what he did after Hogwarts, Sirius might have been tempted towards power. I suspect nobody thought Peter had any desire for power; I think he did - the unthinking cruelty of James and Sirius, and, indeed, of all around him - as McGongall says, he was never in their league - I think Peter desperately wanted to be seen as wielding some power. I do wonder what Sirius was doing after school - would he have inherited money, or would he have had to take a, perhaps demeaning to him, job? Ah, well just speculation on my part. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Aug 14 17:56:02 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Aug 2010 17:56:02 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/15/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1281808562.190.32241.m7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189523 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 15, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 21:41:07 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:41:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Betrayal (long) - (was: CHAP DISC: Chapter 5: The Dementor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189524 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189517 > Pippin: > What about Lupin's connection to James? I don't think Dumbledore > believed that Lupin could have any sway over Black, but at this > point Dumbledore needed a DADA teacher who really knew his stuff > and could be counted on to protect Harry. Mike: I see your point about needing a teacher who knew his DADA. And certainly Lupin had Dumbledore's confidence in the protecting Harry department. If that's what you mean by suggesting his connection to James, I can see that. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189519 > > Alla: > > > > I was under the impression that Grindelwald was *always* on dark > > side, > Pippin: > If Grindelwald was *always* on the Dark Side, he wouldn't have been a welcome guest in Bathilda's home and Dumbledore wouldn't have wanted to be associated with him. Dumbledore says that he knew in his heart was Grindelwald was, but he closed his eyes to it. It wasn't until the argument with Aberforth became a fight that Grindelwald lost control and what Dumbledore had sensed in him sprang "into terrible being." Mike: Maybe I'm remembering the chronology incorrectly. I thought Grindelwald had already been kicked out of Durmstrang when he came to visit his Aunt Bathilda. If that is so, then someone expelled from Durmstrang, of all places, for dark magic, well,... they can't have had much of a sunny reputation now could they? That is to say, what Dumbledore sensed in Grindelwald might have had a basis in the known facts about who Grindelwald was and what he was capable of. Like I said, that's if I have the chronology correct. > Pippin: > I think Dumbledore believed that he sensed a similar darkness in > Sirius, to which James was closing his eyes. It was an illusion, > > Of course Sirius never showed any ambitions towards gaining > political power by force, > > He might have feared that Voldemort had done the same thing > with Sirius. Mike: Rather a *delusion* than an illusion, I would say. To out of the blue conjure up dark intentions for Sirius, based on what had happened with himself 80 years previous,... I never sensed that Dumbledore was capable of this kind of self deceit. > > Alla: > > And yes, since all it took for Dumbledore is one conversation > > with Sirius in PoA to believe in his innocence, I am also under > > opinion that Dumbledore never [believed the lie]. > Pippin: > There's more than a conversation. If Sirius had wanted to kill > Harry or take him to the Dark Lord, he'd had the chance already. > That at least proved that Sirius was not a crazed murderer who > was out for Harry's blood, and the shape of Harry's patronus gave > evidence that the story of the animagi was not a fabrication. Mike: Sorry Pippin, not convincing to me. First off, Sirius hadn't had much of a chance until that night in the Shack. The thought that Dumbledore had correctly worked out Sirius's intentions the night he got into Harry's bed chambers would indicate he's far more intuitive than I'm ready to give him credit. For Dumbledore to somehow realize that Sirius wasn't after Harry, but instead after Ron's rat,... not buying it. That leaves only the night in the Shack as a wasted opportunity, and Dumbledore doesn't know that story until he talks to Sirius. So just as Alla said, one conversation was supposedly all it took to change Dumbledore's mind about Sirius's guilt, if you believe Dumbledore. I don't! > > > Pippin: > > > > > Don't forget that Sirius wasn't sent to Azkaban for betraying > > the Potters, he was sent there for the daylight murder of > > thirteen people. If he was capable of that, who > > could doubt that he'd set up the Potters as well? > > > > Alla: > > > > Huh, I always thought he was sent in Azkaban for both events. > What about Dumbledore giving "evidence" that Sirius was Potters > secret keeper at the hearing? > > Pippin: > > What hearing? There was no trial. Dumbledore would have been > questioned by the Ministry, rather as Harry was after Dumbledore's > death. Dumbledore gave evidence of what he knew, which was that > James had insisted on using Sirius as his secret keeper, despite > Dumbledore's warnings that someone close to the Potters was passing > information on their movements to Voldemort. Mike: Alla was right, Dumbledore said he "gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potter's Secret-Keeper."(PoA, p.392, US) Hearing, administrative proceding, kangaroo court, it doesn't matter. The salient point was that Dumbledore gave evidence of something that he *did not know to be fact*. Why does Dumbledore bring this up in the conversation with H & H if it wasn't to affirm that his evidence was part of the reason for Sirius's incarceration? The WW has a strange justice system, who's to say that Dumbledore's evidence wasn't just as much a reason for locking up Sirius as his murder of 13 people in broad daylight? Especially considering it was done without the benefit of a trial, thank you very much Barty Crouch. > Pippin: > That was not a lie, so far as we know. The liars were James and > Sirius, who pretended that Sirius, not Pettigrew, was the secret > keeper. Mike: Yes, it was a lie. Even if it was unintentional, the "evidence" Dumbledore gave was a lie, by definition. Whether or not Dumbledore knew the real truth is at the heart of this debate. > Pippin: > It all fit together, or seemed to. Sirius was the spy, he had betrayed the Potters, and then he had gone berserk and murdered thirteen people. There really was not, at the time, any other credible explanation for how those people had died. Mike: And now we come to the critical point of the saga. What would have ever foreshadowed this supposed change in Sirius? Taking the whole story into context, where is the sense in believing that Sirius was the spy that came in from the cold? I read nothing of those critical years leading up to Voldemort's attack of the Potters that gives the slightest inclination that Sirius would be the logical suspect. We need "someone close to the Potters" to be the spy. If that leaves only Black, Lupin, and Pettigrew, which of those seemed more likely to fit the bill? I submit that Pettigrew, followed by Lupin, were more likely than Sirius. So what trap does Dumbledore devise to find the spy? If it was the Fidelius Charm, that was pretty poor. That would only eliminate one person if it worked. If it didn't work, it would result in the Potters' deaths. And it was incumbant upon Dumbledore knowing absolutely who the secret-keeper was. Sorry to say, Dumbledore wasn't as close to the Potters as he believed he was, or that he deluded himself into believing he was. Because they did the whole thing without him. Whether they didn't trust Dumbledore, I cannot say. That they didn't let Dumbledore in on the secret, points to a little distrust, imo. So, the Potters get betrayed, Harry is left an orphan, Dumbledore devises a plan to place Harry with Lily's sister so he can perform his "blood protection" charm, and now what? Dumbledore *thinks* he knows who betrayed the Potters, despite the fact that they didn't involve him in the Fidelius charm. On this slim "evidence" - slim because it was hearsay, not because of the gravity - Dumbledore jumps on the bandwagon, with a Ministry that he rarely trusts, and helps put Sirius away. Conveniently enough, there is now nobody to contradict his plans for Harry. There is nobody to consider Harry's best interest, instead of Dumbledore's plans to - as Snape put it - raise a pig for slaughter. Did Dumbledore have this plan all worked out before he gave his "evidence"? Probably not. But if you ask me whether or not Dumbledore understood the significance of "the boy who lived", whether or not Dumbledore understood the potential of the Prophecy's line "power the Dark Lord knows not", and whether Dumbledore knew he needed to explore these avenues unfettered and unhampered by a untrusting - of Dumbledore - godfather to Harry,... I'd say YES! Besides, whether the spy was Black or Pettigrew matters not, at that point. Pettigrew is dead and Black's going away for his death. Why explore it any longer? They didn't trust DD to be involved, why should he care about Black's fate? So what that Black had been the Potter's closest friend, trusted ally, ardent supporter of the fight against Voldemort? He's a liability now, and possibly a hinderance to whatever plan Dumbledore might come up with for Harry. Better that Black goes away, even if he wasn't guilty of what he was charged with. In fact, Dumbledore can throw a little fuel on the fire if he gives his "evidence", who cares if he really doesn't know his "evidence" for a fact? It serves his purpose. Like I said earlier, I would never have accused Dumbledore of complicity in this farce, back at the time. But I was always confused by why Dumbledore did not try harder to find the truth. He certainly went to great lengths to find out everything about Tom Riddle, why wouldn't he do the same for someone that was once his ally in the fight against Voldemort and supposedly an integral part in a crucial chapter of Voldemort's morphology? This part always puzzled me. Now, I can see a reason, even if I wouldn't have believed that reason back then. ~Mike From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 23:17:47 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 23:17:47 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189525 > > > > Mike's question: > > In light of Dumbledore's speech at the end of the chapter, who > > authorized the Dementors' search of the Hogwarts Express? The > > driver obviously stopped for them, so it must have been set up > > in advance, wasn't it? What do you think of this decision? > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189510 > AmanitaM now - I wondered whether the Dementors had stopped the > train, rather than that it was an arranged raid - that Lupin goes > to see the train driver could work either way. I thought he might > be checking on whether the driver was able to continue, at the > time, but it may have been to ask if he knew who'd set the raid up. > Dolores may already be around, and it does see to be her style ... Mike: Oh, good insight! :) I hadn't thought of Dolores. She wouldn't care about the ramifications of sending in a flock of Dementors amongst a bunch of children, would she? > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189516 > Pippin: > I think the Ministry ordered the train to be inspected -- I don't > think the dementors did it on their own, although since they can > make lights and fires and even stars go out or seem to go out, it's > conceivable that the train lost power to its engine as well as its > lamps when they arrived. Mike: That's a good point about the lights going out, they showed that ability/consequence in the OotP attack on Harry. Mrs Figg remarked about it at Harry's hearing. And that nicely answers dzturtleshell's question about the lamps. But if the Ministry ordered the search, they showed remarkable callousness towards the children. As much as they all seem to get the "collywobbles" just talking about those Azkaban guards, to subject children that have no defenses to close encounters, when they have nowhere to escape, is ridiculously irresponsible. Yet, not out of the question for the Ministry, eh? > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189507 > dzturtleshell: > And why wasn't anyone worried about Ginny?! Mike: This caught my eye, too. I supposed that Ginny was reliving her escapades with diary!Riddle. That she was almost overcome seems to not have registered with those that were so concerned with Harry. Puh! Another case of irresponsibility, imho. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 15 17:01:13 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 15 Aug 2010 17:01:13 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/15/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1281891673.1434.82665.m15@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189526 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 15, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From catlady at wicca.net Mon Aug 16 03:33:54 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 03:33:54 -0000 Subject: spells/themepark/Scabbers/Crookshanks/Lupin&Dementors on train/Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189527 Joey asked in : << Are spells also like words where different words could give the same meaning? Not sure if there are other such spells. >> Oh yes. I always go on about that "Locomotor trunk" spell that Tonks used to transport Harry's trunk. It's redundant with the Mobili- spell that we had already learned: Mobiliarbus to move a tree, Mobilicorpus to move an unconscious person (body), and surely Mobilicysta would move a trunk. dzturtleshell wrote in : << I just got back from the Wizarding World of Harry Potter at Universal Studios. It was phenomenal! It's still a bit crowded (it only opened a month ago), but the crowds lighten up a lot in the evening after 5 pm. >> There was just an article on Marketplace about Universal had not realised how popular it would be and had to scramble for crowd control. It says Universal is proud to have got the wait times down to one hour. Do you think it will be less crowded in January or February? Nikkalmati discussed PoA Chapter 4 in : << 6. Did you notice the strange fact that Scabbers was much too long-lived? What did you think it meant? >> Rowling rather called attention to it, but I had no idea what it meant. To which, Joey replied in : << The clue for Animagus was in PS/SS with McGonagall turning into a cat but I never applied the concept to the ever-snoozing "Scabbers." >> My recollection is that, at the time, a myriad of people figured that it was CROOKSHANKS who was an Animagus. I even had a theory that he was McGonagall's son. dzturtleshell wrote in : << Why was Lupin on the train at all? I get that he's not wealthy, but couldn't he have just apparated to Hogsmeade and walked over from there? Did Dumbledore ask him to take the train to watch over Harry during the Dementor's search? If so, how could he have known Harry & co would happen to sit in the same compartment with Lupin? >> Discussion on this list persuaded me that Lupin was on the train because Dumbledore had told him to guard Harry on the train. As for how he knew which compartment Harry would take, so that he could wait for Harry in it, Dumbledore (who knows more than he tells, as I think Arthur mentioned sometime) knew that the Weasleys were always late to catch the Hogwarts Express and therefore took the only empty compartment they could find; DD or Lupin realized that he could make sure that one compartment was empty for Harry & Co by putting an unimpressive looking professor in it, to be avoided by students who had a choice. << I feel like it's fairly well known that Dementors have an overwhelming effect on individuals with a traumatic past, so shouldn't everyone (adults at least) have expected Harry to have that reaction? >> Maybe it isn't common knowledge that Dementors have an overwhelming effect on people with a traumatic past. Maybe most wizards and witches know very little about Dementors except that they guard Azkaban. Amanita Muscaria wrote in : << I wondered whether the Dementors had stopped the train, rather than that it was an arranged raid - that Lupin goes to see the train driver could work either way. I thought he might be checking on whether the driver was able to continue, at the time, but it may have been to ask if he knew who'd set the raid up. Dolores may already be around, and it does see to be her style ... >> It eventually dawned on me that Lupin had gone 'to see the train driver' really to send a message (probably by owl rather than by Patronus) to Hogwarts that Harry had fainted and should be checked over by Madam Pomfrey. Amanita Muscaria wrote in : << I do wonder what Sirius was doing after school - would he have inherited money, or would he have had to take a, perhaps demeaning to him, job? >> Canon says Sirius's Uncle Alphard left him enough gold that he could get a place of his own IIRC at 16. I've never doubted that young Sirius lived non-frugally on inherited money. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Mon Aug 16 09:09:47 2010 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:09:47 -0000 Subject: spells/themepark/Scabbers/Crookshanks/Lupin&Dementors on train/Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" wrote: > > Joey asked in : > > << Are spells also like words where different words could give the same meaning? Not sure if there are other such spells. >> > > Oh yes. I always go on about that "Locomotor trunk" spell that Tonks used to transport Harry's trunk. It's redundant with the Mobili- spell that we had already learned: Mobiliarbus to move a tree, Mobilicorpus to move an unconscious person (body), and surely Mobilicysta would move a trunk. Geoff: I think that "redundant" is too strong a word. It is very common in English to have synonyms so that you can choose different words to cover the same thing, for example to "ask" rather than to "request". Agreed, this is an perhaps unusual because of the rather mongrel background of English with so much drawn from both German (Anglo-Saxon) and French roots but it does occur to some extent in other languages and I think a case can be made for the spellsunder consideration. "Mobili-" type spells can be considered to be derived from "mobilis/mobilitas", to do with being mobile while "locomotor" is from the two sources "locus" - a place and "moto" - to move. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 16 21:12:55 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:12:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Betrayal (long) - (was: CHAP DISC: Chapter 5: The Dementor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189529 > Mike: > Maybe I'm remembering the chronology incorrectly. I thought Grindelwald had already been kicked out of Durmstrang when he came to visit his Aunt Bathilda. If that is so, then someone expelled from Durmstrang, of all places, for dark magic, well,... they can't have had much of a sunny reputation now could they? That is to say, what Dumbledore sensed in Grindelwald might have had a basis in the known facts about who Grindelwald was and what he was capable of. Like I said, that's if I have the chronology correct. Pippin: Your chronology is correct, but many young wizards get in trouble for "twisted experiments" -- whether it's keeping an acromantula as a pet or practicing unnatural charms on a goat. As Rowling shows us, such "known facts" do not make much of a basis for distinguishing between a teenager who is testing his limits and one for whom limits have no meaning. It was possible for Bathilda to think, and Dumbledore to pretend, that Grindelwald was the former and not the latter. And whatever he thought about Grindelwald's motives, Dumbledore never suspected his own -- he didn't think *he* was becoming corrupt until Arianna lay dead. Dumbledore was young, and naive at the time, and the fact is, he did trust Grindelwald, despite his misgivings about him. "Well, Grindelwald fled, as anyone but I could have predicted." Dumbledore expected Grindelwald to stand by him and he didn't. > > Pippin: > > I think Dumbledore believed that he sensed a similar darkness in > > Sirius, to which James was closing his eyes. It was an illusion, > > > > Mike: > Rather a *delusion* than an illusion, I would say. To out of the blue conjure up dark intentions for Sirius, based on what had happened with himself 80 years previous,... I never sensed that Dumbledore was capable of this kind of self deceit. > Pippin: But it wasn't "out of the blue." Sirius had been involved in the near-murder of a fellow student only a few years earlier, a fellow student who was now Dumbledore's ally. And Snape for one *did* think that Sirius was capable of anything, so it's simply not true that no one who knew Sirius could have thought he would betray James. I'm not saying that Dumbledore said to himself, "the spy has to be Sirius because he reminds me of Grindelwald." But I think the resemblance pre-disposed Dumbledore to distrust. As canon shows us, *everyone* is capable of that kind of self-deceit, because it comes from the unconscious mind and even if we're aware of it, it isn't under our control. And the distrust lingered. Even when Dumbledore knew that Sirius was an innocent man, he found other reasons to think that Sirius couldn't keep himself out of trouble. > Mike: > > That leaves only the night in the Shack as a wasted opportunity, and Dumbledore doesn't know that story until he talks to Sirius. So just as Alla said, one conversation was supposedly all it took to change Dumbledore's mind about Sirius's guilt, if you believe Dumbledore. I don't! Pippin: But the night in the Shack was compelling. Harry and Snape were still alive, despite having been in Sirius's power for hours while Snape was unconscious. Snape found himself and Ron on the path to the castle, and Harry, Sirius and Hermione on the shores of the lake -- not the places they would have been taken if Sirius was trying to get them off the grounds. That's the sort of mystery that would attract Dumbledore's attention, and as you say, he would have persisted in trying to get an explanation for it. > Mike: > Alla was right, Dumbledore said he "gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potter's Secret-Keeper."(PoA, p.392, US) Hearing, administrative proceding, kangaroo court, it doesn't matter. The salient point was that Dumbledore gave evidence of something that he *did not know to be fact*. Pippin: "Evidence that Black had been the Potters' Secret-keeper" doesn't tell us what that evidence was, only the conclusion that was inferred from it. What Fudge says is that Dumbledore told James that the Secret-keeper spell was his best chance, that he, Dumbledore, had offered to be the secret-keeper himself, and that James had refused him and insisted on using Black. The source of that information had to be Dumbledore's evidence -- how else would Fudge know? There was nothing in it that Dumbledore did not know of his own knowledge. As far as we know, he didn't claim any further proof. It still meant that the only way someone else could have been the Secret-keeper is if James had misled Dumbledore about his intentions -- which is what happened, but who knew? Everyone, including Lupin, thought that Sirius was the Secret-keeper, just as James and Sirius had intended. That was the point of the switch -- not just to pick an unlikely person as the Secret-keeper but to protect him by providing a decoy. The evidence that Sirius had been the Secret-keeper explained why Peter would have gone after him. The Ministry was already hunting Sirius themselves for the same reason, I don't deny it. But plenty of suspected Death Eaters managed to talk themselves out of Azkaban with or without help from Albus Dumbledore. It was the supposed murder of Peter and all those Muggles which ensured that Sirius never got the chance. Mike Why does Dumbledore bring this up in the conversation with H & H if it wasn't to affirm that his evidence was part of the reason for Sirius's incarceration? Pippin: He brings it up in the course of explaining why the Ministry won't believe him if he tries to tell them that Sirius wasn't the Potter's secret-keeper after all. Without proof that Peter is alive, there is unfortunately not a single fact that DD can cite to refute his earlier testimony. It's the word of James, now martyred, heroic and in the eyes of most of the WW practically a saint, against the word of three wayward teenagers, a convicted murderer, and a werewolf. Dumbledore chooses to believe them. But the Ministry will not. > > Pippin: > > It all fit together, or seemed to. Sirius was the spy, he had betrayed the Potters, and then he had gone berserk and murdered thirteen people. There really was not, at the time, any other credible explanation for how those people had died. > > Mike: > And now we come to the critical point of the saga. What would have ever foreshadowed this supposed change in Sirius? Taking the whole story into context, where is the sense in believing that Sirius was the spy that came in from the cold? I read nothing of those critical years leading up to Voldemort's attack of the Potters that gives the slightest inclination that Sirius would be the logical suspect. We need "someone close to the Potters" to be the spy. If that leaves only Black, Lupin, and Pettigrew, which of those seemed more likely to fit the bill? I submit that Pettigrew, followed by Lupin, were more likely than Sirius. Pippin: Fudge's story is that Sirius was Voldemort's second in command. We don't know how that got started, but it would be perfectly in character for Voldemort to remark that his most trusted servant is his spy in the Order, who will one day take his rightful place, favored above all the rest. And Dumbledore, thanks to his own weaknesses, would believe that anyone would do anything to get that kind of power, which meant that no one could be eliminated on those grounds. In any case, canon shows that motive is a poor clue to who serves the Dark Lord -- there are too many secrets, too many seemingly harmless people with hidden weaknesses for Voldemort to exploit, and too many nasty people who nevertheless have nothing to do with him. And if Dumbledore is wise, he knows it. So that leaves method. Dumbledore would have asked which of the three was clever enough to deceive him. By that ranking Sirius was first and Pettigrew was out of the running. He shouldn't have been, of course, but Dumbledore didn't know that little Peter, with the help of his three more obviously brilliant friends, had managed to deceive him for years. Dumbledore didn't contest every Ministry conviction, only those in which there was obvious sloppiness or prejudice had played a role. But in this case the investigation of the Muggle deaths was carried out conscientiously, there didn't seem to be any mystery about who had killed them, the inferences drawn from the known facts were logical, and Sirius was a pureblood, independently wealthy wizard, not poor or downtrodden by any means. The only prejudice involved, alas, was Dumbledore's. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 17 13:59:27 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:59:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189530 > > Mike: > > But if the Ministry ordered the search, they showed remarkable callousness towards the children. As much as they all seem to get the "collywobbles" just talking about those Azkaban guards, to subject children that have no defenses to close encounters, when they have nowhere to escape, is ridiculously irresponsible. Yet, not out of the question for the Ministry, eh? > Pippin: If you are trying to protect a trainload of children from a mass murderer who might kill every single one of them, collywobbles might seem a small price to pay. I agree with Catlady that the average wizard has had no experience with dementors and doesn't understand how bad they are. Even those who have had contact wouldn't have had an experience like Harry's unless there was something equally traumatic in their past. Molly can't understand why Dumbledore doesn't want dementors at the school. And even Arthur says that if the dementors can protect Harry, he'll never say another word against them. Lupin had chocolate on him...was he forewarned? Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Aug 21 17:55:58 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 21 Aug 2010 17:55:58 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/22/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1282413358.495.27817.m13@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189531 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 22, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 22 17:25:38 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 22 Aug 2010 17:25:38 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/22/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1282497938.27.63643.m6@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189532 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 22, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sherriola at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 03:38:52 2010 From: sherriola at gmail.com (sherriola) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 03:38:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189533 Questions: 1. Why did you think the Dementors affected Harry so badly, compared to everyone else? 2. Did you think anything was going on with Hermione's schedule or have any idea of how she was taking so many classes? 3. Did you think Sir Cadogan would become a more important character, or was he just comic relief? 4. Harry shows concern for Sir Cadogan by moving closer to the picture and asking if he is ok. On the other hand, Ron is scornful of the Knight and comments at parting that they'll call him if they need someone mental. Do you think the contrast in attitudes of the two boys says anything in particular about them? Is this an indication of their overall and eventual characters/personality, or is it just young teenage boy attitudes? 5. Did you think Trelawney was a true seer or a hoax? Did you expect any of her predictions to come true, even the simple ones? Do you think any of them did come true later? Just the predictions in this first lesson. 6. Did you think Harry had truly seen a Grim? 7. We meet our first animagi in this first Transfiguration class. Did you think this would be significant, or was it possibly just another fun magical ability? 8. Do you think a person's Animagi form says anything about his or her character? Take McGonagall, does a cat fit her as you've come to know her through the series? 9. How did you like Hagrid's first lesson? Do you think he had potential to be a good teacher? Would you have enjoyed this first class? 10. What did you think of Harry's interaction with Buckbeak? Did you think we would see Buckbeak again, as we did throughout the series? 11. What are your thoughts on Draco's actions in this lesson? Should he have listened more to Hagrid's instructions? Does he have any blame in the fact that he was injured? Should 13-year-olds be taught to interact with dangerous creatures? 12. Did you agree that Hagrid should be disciplined for this lesson or that Buckbeak should be executed over what happened to Malfoy? Did you guess the significance Buckbeak's execution would play later in the book? 13. And one for fun. Because I laughed a lot in this chapter, did you have a favorite funny line in this chapter? Please feel free to add your own thoughts or questions. Sherry NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 7 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 18:09:36 2010 From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (poohmeg20) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:09:36 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189534 > > Questions: > 1. Why did you think the Dementors affected Harry so badly, compared > to everyone else? Megan: I wasn't sure - Harry seemed more sensitive in a lot of ways than many of the other students, but at that point I didn't have a theory of why that was. > 2. Did you think anything was going on with Hermione's schedule or > have any idea of how she was taking so many classes? > Megan: I had no idea - I thought it was just supposed to be funny, sort of an extreme demonstration of what an overachiever she was. > 3. Did you think Sir Cadogan would become a more important character, > or was he just comic relief? > Megan: I just thought he was comic relief. > 4. Harry shows concern for Sir Cadogan by moving closer to the picture > and asking if he is ok. On the other hand, Ron is scornful of the Knight > and comments at parting that they'll call him if they need someone mental. > Do you think the contrast in attitudes of the two boys says anything in > particular about them? Is this an indication of their overall and eventual > characters/personality, or is it just young teenage boy attitudes? > Megan: That certainly is a running theme through the book - Harry has just had so much more emotional and physical turmoil in his life than Ron has that he is bound to be sensitive and aware of others' feelings. > 5. Did you think Trelawney was a true seer or a hoax? Did you expect > any of her predictions to come true, even the simple ones? Do you think any > of them did come true later? Just the predictions in this first lesson. > Megan: She seemed so wrong that I figured something she said had to turn out to be right. > 6. Did you think Harry had truly seen a Grim? > Megan: Yes, but I wasn't sure what that would mean in the context of the story. > 7. We meet our first animagi in this first Transfiguration class. Did > you think this would be significant, or was it possibly just another fun > magical ability? > Megan: I wasn't sure at that point - it seemed like a pretty good opportunity for plot development, but I didn't know how it would tie in. > 8. Do you think a person's Animagi form says anything about his or her > character? Take McGonagall, does a cat fit her as you've come to know her > through the series? > Megan: It does seem like the anamagi in the series have some connection between their personalities and the animal whose form they take. McGonagall seems pretty cat-like in some ways in her human form - keeps to herself, slightly superior attitude, etc. > 9. How did you like Hagrid's first lesson? Do you think he had > potential to be a good teacher? Would you have enjoyed this first class? > Megan: I thought it was kind of cringe-worthy - I don't think I would have enjoyed it because I would have felt sorry for him. I think with a little more guidance, he could have done a much better job. It seems like they (the other teachers) kind of just left him to figure it out on his own rather than giving him any structure. > 10. What did you think of Harry's interaction with Buckbeak? Did you > think we would see Buckbeak again, as we did throughout the series? > Megan: I was pleasantly surprised that Buckbeak got to have a more significant role than it seemed like he would. > 11. What are your thoughts on Draco's actions in this lesson? Should > he have listened more to Hagrid's instructions? Does he have any blame in > the fact that he was injured? Should 13-year-olds be taught to interact > with dangerous creatures? > Megan: Draco was a little brat, and this was typical for him - unfortunately when you're planning lessons for kids that age, you have to assume there will be more Dracos than Harrys in the bunch. But it was not very nice of the other teachers to leave Hagrid on his own to deal with that kind of behavior when he'd never had to before. > 12. Did you agree that Hagrid should be disciplined for this lesson or > that Buckbeak should be executed over what happened to Malfoy? Did you > guess the significance Buckbeak's execution would play later in the book? > Megan: I thought that was a rather extreme reaction, but the Malfoys had been almost cartoonish up through this point in the series, so it didn't seem out of scale to what they would want. > 13. And one for fun. Because I laughed a lot in this chapter, did you > have a favorite funny line in this chapter? > Megan: I don't have a copy right in front of me, but I remember that there were many I liked. :) > Please feel free to add your own thoughts or questions. > > Sherry > From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 03:28:28 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 03:28:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189535 > Pippin: > If you are trying to protect a trainload of children from a mass > murderer who might kill every single one of them, collywobbles > might seem a small price to pay. Mike: If protecting the children was the goal, I think someone already suggested the question of why the Dementors weren't at the station, then? Or why they weren't riding on the train from the very beginning? Wait until the train is almost to Hogsmeade and then stop it to have an inspection, rather inept method wouldn't you say? I mean, if the mass murderer *could* have gotten on the train, he'd have had plenty of time to perform many, many murders by the time the Dementors got there. I don't think protecting the children was the point of the search. I think they were simply out to catch the escaped convict and using the children - and more specifically, Harry - as bait. I don't think the children's welfare was ever taken into consideration in this plan. And even if the person that ordered this search hadn't had any personal experience with Dementors, that doesn't absolve them of callous disregard, in my book. Do you think Ernie the bus driver had personal experience? Because he seemed all too familiar with the effects Dementors have on people. And Ernie doesn't strike as an overly learned person. I would hope a Ministry official in a position to order this search would have been at least as learned as Ernie. > Pippin: > Molly can't understand why Dumbledore doesn't want dementors at > the school. And even Arthur says that if the dementors can protect > Harry, he'll never say another word against them. Mike: Yes, but I rather doubt that either Molly or Arthur would have approved of a search in this fashion. Not with their children aboard the train. But I wouldn't have put this kind of search above someone like Umbridge. > Pippin: > Lupin had chocolate on him...was he forewarned? Mike: I think so. Just another indication that this was planned and not an impromptu choice on the part of the Dementors. But I bet none of the parents were forewarned. Speaking of Lupin, what the heck had he been doing beforehand that would make him need to sleep for most of the trip? Or was he faking it? He seemed to spring into action pretty darn fast for someone that was so tired. Mike From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 04:00:40 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 04:00:40 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189536 >Mike: I'm not sure how, but the summary part of Sherry's Chapter >Discussion got dropped. So, here it is: HARRY POTTER AND THE PRISONER OF AZKABAN Chapter Discussions Chapter Six TALONS AND TEA LEAVES We are introduced to a lot of new information and concepts in this chapter. Hermione is taking more classes than seems possible. The trio takes their first lesson in Divination and meet Professor Trelawney. Trelawney begins to predict Harry's death by telling him about the Grim. Minerva introduces the Transfiguration class to her animagi form and then also tries to comfort Harry regarding Trelawney's predictions. Hagrid teaches his first class with Buckbeak. Draco is injured by Buckbeak and the campaign to sack Hagrid and execute Buckbeak begins. Questions: 1. Why did you think the Dementors affected Harry so badly, compared to everyone else? 2. Did you think anything was going on with Hermione's schedule or have any idea of how she was taking so many classes? 3. Did you think Sir Cadogan would become a more important character, or was he just comic relief? 4. Harry shows concern for Sir Cadogan by moving closer to the picture and asking if he is ok. On the other hand, Ron is scornful of the Knight and comments at parting that they'll call him if they need someone mental. Do you think the contrast in attitudes of the two boys says anything in particular about them? Is this an indication of their overall and eventual characters/personality, or is it just young teenage boy attitudes? 5. Did you think Trelawney was a true seer or a hoax? Did you expect any of her predictions to come true, even the simple ones? Do you think any of them did come true later? Just the predictions in this first lesson. 6. Did you think Harry had truly seen a Grim? 7. We meet our first animagi in this first Transfiguration class. Did you think this would be significant, or was it possibly just another fun magical ability? 8. Do you think a person's Animagi form says anything about his or her character? Take McGonagall, does a cat fit her as you've come to know her through the series? 9. How did you like Hagrid's first lesson? Do you think he had potential to be a good teacher? Would you have enjoyed this first class? 10. What did you think of Harry's interaction with Buckbeak? Did you think we would see Buckbeak again, as we did throughout the series? 11. What are your thoughts on Draco's actions in this lesson? Should he have listened more to Hagrid's instructions? Does he have any blame in the fact that he was injured? Should 13-year-olds be taught to interact with dangerous creatures? 12. Did you agree that Hagrid should be disciplined for this lesson or that Buckbeak should be executed over what happened to Malfoy? Did you guess the significance Buckbeak's execution would play later in the book? 13. And one for fun. Because I laughed a lot in this chapter, did you have a favorite funny line in this chapter? Please feel free to add your own thoughts or questions. Sherry From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Aug 25 14:00:53 2010 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Melissa Mcfarlin) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:00:53 -0500 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5: The Dementor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189537 Mike said: Speaking of Lupin, what the heck had he been doing beforehand that would make him need to sleep for most of the trip? Or was he faking it? He seemed to spring into action pretty darn fast for someone that was so tired Perhaps he was recovering from the effects of a full moon Melissa Sent from my iPod [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed Aug 25 20:41:13 2010 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:41:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sherriola" wrote: > > Questions: > 1. Why did you think the Dementors affected Harry so badly, compared > to everyone else? Geoff: Although Madam Pomfrey was rather patronising in the previous chapter by indirectly suggesting that Harry was delicate, I felt that since Harry probably had the most troubled life of anyone there, he would feel the effects of them more. > 2. Did you think anything was going on with Hermione's schedule or > have any idea of how she was taking so many classes? Geoff: I presumed that Professor McGonagall had organised extra classes at different times to cover her schedule; it is something that I have known to be done very occasionally when I was teaching but usually with Upper Sixth Form pupils where there was a problem timetabling their options. > 3. Did you think Sir Cadogan would become a more important character, > or was he just comic relief? Geoff: Probably the latter. > 4. Harry shows concern for Sir Cadogan by moving closer to the picture > and asking if he is ok. On the other hand, Ron is scornful of the Knight > and comments at parting that they'll call him if they need someone mental. > Do you think the contrast in attitudes of the two boys says anything in > particular about them? Is this an indication of their overall and eventual > characters/personality, or is it just young teenage boy attitudes? Geoff: It is quite usual for a group of pupils to exhibit widely varying attitudes. Harry has had a rough time in his upbringing and has has reacted positively in standing up for and seeing the needs of others who have problems - Neville as an example. Ron, on the other hand, has had to hold his own against his siblings and takes a rather offhand attitude to people with problems going through life leaving a trail of devastation in his wake. :-) > 5. Did you think Trelawney was a true seer or a hoax? Did you expect > any of her predictions to come true, even the simple ones? Do you think any > of them did come true later? Just the predictions in this first lesson. Geoff: Looking back from a point later in the book, it did appear that some of her predictions were correct - the teacup for Neville and the 16th October date for Lavender. As for the "leaving for ever at Easter", when I later read about Hermione's departure from the class, I was slightly reminded of the prophecies which surrounded MacBeth - which were true if interpreted in a different way to how they first seemed. My feeling was that she had some ability as a seer but that some of it seemed to be showmanship. > 6. Did you think Harry had truly seen a Grim? Geoff: No. > 7. We meet our first animagi in this first Transfiguration class. Did > you think this would be significant, or was it possibly just another fun > magical ability? Geoff: I did feel that this was a potentially important ability for a wizard to possess. > 11. What are your thoughts on Draco's actions in this lesson? Should > he have listened more to Hagrid's instructions? Does he have any blame in > the fact that he was injured? Should 13-year-olds be taught to interact > with dangerous creatures? Geoff:The class had been warned on one occasion not to insult a Hippogriff but from my own experience with teaching, it should have been reinforced more than once and that an experienced teacher would have kept a careful eye on the "jokers" on the class who might be prepared to chance their arm (no pun intended). With regard to Draco himself, we already know that, at this point in his school career, he is arrogant, cocky and patronising. He can also be categorised as being like many guys in their teens who believe that they are immortal and that "accidents happen to other people." > 12. Did you agree that Hagrid should be disciplined for this lesson or > that Buckbeak should be executed over what happened to Malfoy? Did you > guess the significance Buckbeak's execution would play later in the book? Geoff: No, no and no. > 13. And one for fun. Because I laughed a lot in this chapter, did you > have a favorite funny line in this chapter? Geoff: One was the little exchange between Harry and Ron... Harry: "...so you're going to suffer and be very happy." Ron: "You need your Inner Eye testing if you ask me." From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 04:21:50 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 04:21:50 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189539 1. Why did you think the Dementors affected Harry so badly, compared to everyone else? dzturtleshell: I don't think I had a theory at that point. Maybe some sort of psychic or empathic ability. I remember that I thought the screams were from the present, not from Harry's past. 2. Did you think anything was going on with Hermione's schedule or have any idea of how she was taking so many classes? dzturtleshell: I suspected extra lessons or some wizard version of taping the lessons so she could watch them on her own time. Once Ron started telling us in a few chapters that other students were vouching for Hermione's presence in all of the classes, I was very curious and figured her ability to be in more than one place was going to come in handy later. 3. Did you think Sir Cadogan would become a more important character, or was he just comic relief? dzturtleshell: At this point, comic relief. 4. Harry shows concern for Sir Cadogan by moving closer to the picture and asking if he is ok. On the other hand, Ron is scornful of the Knight and comments at parting that they'll call him if they need someone mental. Do you think the contrast in attitudes of the two boys says anything in particular about them? Is this an indication of their overall and eventual characters/personality, or is it just young teenage boy attitudes? dzturtleshell: Ron's grumpiness is a recurring theme through the series, remember how he leaves Harry & Hermione in DH because times are tough? I think the attitude is something his character has to work through as he grows up, a sign of his immaturity at this point. This is another way in which we see Harry's maturity. Also, Harry has had some very unique experiences, knowing both sides of the popularity coin, so he's more likely to be attentive to the needs of others 5. Did you think Trelawney was a true seer or a hoax? Did you expect any of her predictions to come true, even the simple ones? Do you think any of them did come true later? Just the predictions in this first lesson. dzturtleshell: There's a recent trend in entertainment for "mentalists" (Like that show, The Mentalist). I kind of figured Trelawney was one of those, she pretended to not pay attention, but in actuality was very observant and was able to deduce things about people, if she had any conversation with anyone about the 3rd years, it wouldn't take much for her to figure out that Neville is clumsy, Hermione is too limited by logic to appreciate divination, and Harry has affinity for life-threatening situations 6. Did you think Harry had truly seen a Grim? dzturtleshell: No, I thought he'd seen a dog... 7. We meet our first animagi in this first Transfiguration class. Did you think this would be significant, or was it possibly just another fun magical ability? dzturtleshell: I was thinking it was something we'd see the kids learn along the way 8. Do you think a person's Animagi form says anything about his or her character? Take McGonagall, does a cat fit her as you've come to know her through the series? dzturtleshell: I'm not sure which came first, the wizard's qualities like a particular animal, or the effect of spending time as that animal on the wizard's personality. At the end of the book, human Peter acts kind of ratlike, and I believe it's suggested those ratlike tendencies are partly due to spending 12 years as a rat. I'm very curious as to what determines the form of a wizard's patronus. 9. How did you like Hagrid's first lesson? Do you think he had potential to be a good teacher? Would you have enjoyed this first class? dzturtleshell: Hagrid's already been a great teacher to the students he got to interact with as gamekeeper. I'm glad to see it's finally been made official. I think his lesson would have been great, he just underestimated Malfoy's malice. As a lesson, he did great by introducing the students to something new and intriguing, educating them about the animal, demonstrating a proper way to interact with them and then warning them what would happen if you didn't listen. He might have taken it a little slower than unleashing the whole class on the hippogriffs at once when he didn't have any help with supervision. 10. What did you think of Harry's interaction with Buckbeak? Did you think we would see Buckbeak again, as we did throughout the series? dzturtleshell: Hagrid did seem pretty partial to Buckbeak at this point, I expected Buckbeak would be important throughout this book, but I didn't expect him to be a recurring character throughout the series. 11. What are your thoughts on Draco's actions in this lesson? Should he have listened more to Hagrid's instructions? Does he have any blame in the fact that he was injured? Should 13-year-olds be taught to interact with dangerous creatures? dzturtleshell: Draco's actions here are typical for him, expected even. I had really hoped that Hagrid would have been a little more realistic about a group of teens, he's been softened by being able to rely on the trio's usual good judgement. He is completely to blame for his injuries, a 13-year old wizard should have enough sense not to insult a gigantic magical creature with razor-sharp talons. That being said, I don't think Hagrid should have allowed a situation in which he was too far from any of the hippogriffs to intervene on an attack. He should have asked for some assistance with supervision for the lesson, or maybe have had the students individually take turns with one hippogriff, like they will with the boggart in a few chapters. Dumbledore mentioned that the previous Care of Magical Creatures teacher had retired to "spend more time with his remaining limbs," suggesting that the nature of the class puts everyone at risk for a good amount of danger. The wizarding world is different from our world, most injuries can be healed with little hassle and a wizard might come across anything in their daily activities, I think it's important for young wizards to learn how to interact with even dangerous magical creatures so they'll know what to do later in life. Also, Hagrid is not the only one that introduces the kids to dangerous creatures. Lupin introduces them to plenty of hurtful creatures this year (hinkypunks, boggarts, grindylows, etc) 12. Did you agree that Hagrid should be disciplined for this lesson or that Buckbeak should be executed over what happened to Malfoy? Did you guess the significance Buckbeak's execution would play later in the book? dzturtleshell: Maybe a slap on the wrist or formal warning for Hagrid, if that even. Maybe they should have just taken Buckbeak out of a school environment, execution certainly wasn't necessary. I never imagined Buckbeak's execution would take place at Hogwarts, so I really didn't see how integral it would be! 13. And one for fun. Because I laughed a lot in this chapter, did you have a favorite funny line in this chapter? dzturtleshell: "[Sir Cadogan] gave the sword another fruitless tug, tried and failed to mount the fat pony, gave up, and cried, "On foot then, good sirs and gentle lady! On! On!" Thanks for the questions! ~ dzturtleshell :) From wildirishrose at fiber.net Fri Aug 27 05:36:50 2010 From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 23:36:50 -0600 Subject: Divination Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189540 Was divination a class that every student has to take? Or perhaps an optional class. Since Hermione left the class it seems nobody tried to get her to return. Or maybe because she was traveling between time zones Professor McGonagall doesn't push the matter. Ron and Harry don't want to be there. Couldn't they go to Professor McGonagall and ask for a different class? If I had my choice of divination as an optional class, it wouldn't have been my choice. When finals came around, and Hermione was so overworked trying to study for all the classes, why didn't she jump back and forth between time zones to do her studying. How could she take all those exams? Would she use the time turner? Marianne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From technomad at intergate.com Fri Aug 27 06:40:57 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:40:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Divination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100827014057.qsapo0qdn0o8oogw@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189541 Quoting wildirishrose : > Was divination a class that every student has to take? Or perhaps > an optional class. > > Since Hermione left the class it seems nobody tried to get her to > return. Or maybe because she was traveling between time zones > Professor McGonagall doesn't push the matter. > > Ron and Harry don't want to be there. Couldn't they go to Professor > McGonagall and ask for a different class? > > If I had my choice of divination as an optional class, it wouldn't > have been my choice. > > When finals came around, and Hermione was so overworked trying to > study for all the classes, why didn't she jump back and forth > between time zones to do her studying. How could she take all those > exams? Would she use the time turner? Divination was pretty clearly optional; I don't remember Malfoy & Co. there. Hermione only took it because she wanted to take _everything,_ and they had bent the rules very severely to allow her to do so. Ron and Harry had to take a certain number of electives, and I think Ron chose Divination because he saw it as a soft option, and Harry signed up for everything Ron did. If they had dropped Divination or asked for something different, they might have wound up somewhere where they *oh, horrors!* had to _study_ and _learn something._ I wouldn't have taken it either, but I'd have probably gone with Ancient Runes. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From bart at moosewise.com Fri Aug 27 16:57:01 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:57:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Divination In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C77EE5D.8020005@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189542 On 8/27/2010 1:36 AM, wildirishrose wrote: > Was divination a class that every student has to take? Or perhaps an optional class. Bart: Before I go on, I haven't heard what JKR has said about this. But we need to look at this on two levels: as a story, and as internal continuity. Accurate divination is extremely problematic as a storytelling device. Probably the best handling of it was in Philip K. Dick's story, "The Minority Report" (do not confuse it with the travesty of a movie with the same title, and some similar character names). In any case, there are two basic ways of handling divination. The first is to make it accurate, but make the future non-fixed. The idea here is to make divination a sort of photograph of the future, as seen by the present. However, as the present only occurs in a moment, the future is always changing, so the fact that the divination was made invalidates it (an alternative is the "self-fulfilling prophecy", where the fact that the divination was made causes it to come true). The alternative, which JKR uses, is to make divination vague, where the real talent is to figure out what it really means. Professor Trelawny, if you look carefully, is quite capable of making accurate prophecies. Her problem is that she almost invariably misinterprets what she sees, except in the most trivial of cases (the centaurs have better systems, perhaps because they care less about the results. On the other hand, they specialize in what is called "mundane astrology", which used to be the most common form: using the patterns in the stars and planets to predict the future of nations and world events, rather than individuals). Finally, going to the earlier interpretation, there is the factor of free will. Even among physicists, this is somewhat controversial, as, at least currently, the amount of energy that would be required to test to see if randomness exists (which would be necessary for free will to exist) is greater than the total energy available in the universe. Which brings us back to the in-story continuity. An important theme of the Harry Potter books is the idea of making choices. And, in order to be able to make a choice, free will MUST exist. It may not be a major factor; most people do not exercise their free will, and let their desires pull them where they may go. But, at least in the Potterverse, free will does exist. And if free will exists, the future is NOT fixed. So, in the Harry Potter novels, JKR uses both techniques. Divination is vague, at best, AND free will can be used to change the future. This makes divination, at best, a useful tool, making it a course of study, but an optional one. Bart From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Aug 28 17:55:59 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 28 Aug 2010 17:55:59 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/29/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1283018159.8.49131.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189543 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 29, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From puduhepa98 at aol.com Sun Aug 29 00:59:17 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 00:59:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > Questions: > 1. Why did you think the Dementors affected Harry so badly, compared > to everyone else? Nikkalmati I didn't really think of any answer, but I thought it would become clear soon. I did think that someone was really screaming and wondered why no one else heard it. > > 2. Did you think anything was going on with Hermione's schedule or > have any idea of how she was taking so many classes? Nikkalmati I was concerned that whe would not be able to handle it all. Guess I was wrong. :>). I was not even thinking about her being in 2 places at once. I guess I thought she was jumping back and forth from one to another place. > > 3. Did you think Sir Cadogan would become a more important character, > or was he just comic relief? Nikkalmati Just comic relief. > > 4. Harry shows concern for Sir Cadogan by moving closer to the picture and asking if he is ok. On the other hand, Ron is scornful of the Knight and comments at parting that they'll call him if they need someone mental. Do you think the contrast in attitudes of the two boys says anything in particular about them? Is this an indication of their overall and eventual characters/personality, or is it just young teenage boy attitudes? Nikkalmati I do think this was meant to show a difference in their characters. Harry is empathetic, Ron is not (and never will be, I believe). Harry has suffered so he has more sympathy for the injured. Also, he is not used to the magical world, which in general, shows less sympathy for the injured - perhaps because injuries can be healed more easily. > > 5. Did you think Trelawney was a true seer or a hoax? Did you expect any of her predictions to come true, even the simple ones? Do you think any of them did come true later? Just the predictions in this first lesson. Nikkalmati At this time, after the chapter was over, I thought she was a fraud or self--deluded. Now I really like the idea that she is a true seer - she just doesn't know it. She misinterprets her own insights and lacks confidence in her gift. Perhaps, she was cursed at birth? > > 6. Did you think Harry had truly seen a Grim? Nikkalmati Yes, I did and I expected it to show up at any time. > > 7. We meet our first animagi in this first Transfiguration class. Did you think this would be significant, or was it possibly just another fun magical ability? Nikkalmati I assumed it was just another ability that most competent witches and wizards could do. > > 8. Do you think a person's Animagi form says anything about his or her character? Take McGonagall, does a cat fit her as you've come to know her through the series? Nikkalmati We know it shows one's attachments. It also seems to reflect one's personality. I like McGonagal, but is she really cat-like? I am not sure. She is independent, but I don't think of cats as being so strict and willing to enforce the rules. > > 9. How did you like Hagrid's first lesson? Do you think he had potential to be a good teacher? Would you have enjoyed this first class? Nikkalmati Hagred knoows his stuff and he likes the students. I think he could be a very good teacher, but without any training he will make mistakes at first. Why doesn't he have a mentor or something? I would have liked the class, but I would have been cautious. I like animals and would have followed instructions. > > 10. What did you think of Harry's interaction with Buckbeak? Did you think we would see Buckbeak again, as we did throughout the series? Nikkalmati I think Harry shows that he has a good character again here. He is willing to be respectful and acknowledge the Hippogriff's noble nature. > > 11. What are your thoughts on Draco's actions in this lesson? Should he have listened more to Hagrid's instructions? Does he have any blame in the fact that he was injured? Should 13-year-olds be taught to interact with dangerous creatures? Nikkalmati Draco is arrogant and that makes him not listen to Hagrid and not show respect to what he thinks of as an animal, rather than a magical creature. He also is jealous of Harry and wants to show him up. He is primarily to blame for what happened to him. No one tries to forbid Hagride from using dangerous animals. I think it is hos own fear of someone getting hurt that makes him restrict himself to flobberworms. Magical creatures are often dangerous and the point of the class is to prepare the students to handle them. No one would have been hurt, if Draco had followed instructions. > > 12. Did you agree that Hagrid should be disciplined for this lesson or that Buckbeak should be executed over what happened to Malfoy? Did you guess the significance Buckbeak's execution would play later in the book? Nikkalmati Hagrid should have been given assurance that it was not his fault. I think he blamed himself. I certainly don't thin he deserved discipline, but maybe a bit of good ad vice? > > 13. And one for fun. Because I laughed a lot in this chapter, did you have a favorite funny line in this chapter? > Nikkalmati Seamus : "It looks like a Grim if you do this . . . but it looks more like a donkey from here." McGonagall "You look in excellent health to me Potter, so you will excuse me if I don't let you off homework today. I assure you that if you die, you need not hand it in." > Please feel free to add your own thoughts or questions. > > Sherry > From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 29 17:00:48 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 29 Aug 2010 17:00:48 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/29/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1283101248.20.55125.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189545 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 29, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 17:21:26 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:21:26 -0000 Subject: Divination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wildirishrose" wrote: > How could she take all those exams? Would she use the time turner? zanooda: Hermione did use the time-turner for her exams. There is something about it in Ch. 16 - she has Arithmancy and Transfiguration exams at 9 o'clock and Charms and Ancient Runes at 1 o'clock on the same day :-).