From andy at mugglesguide.com  Wed Dec  1 00:06:39 2010
From: andy at mugglesguide.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 00:06:39 +0000
Subject: A quick(ish) question
Message-ID: <1013862627.20101201000639@ajm.me.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 189817

Hello all,

I'm writing a review on the Deathly Hallows film, and I am trying to
remember how long Harry, Hermione and Ron were on the run for (I did try
a Google search, but just got a boat load of results about the film's
run time). If I recall, JKR said in an interview it was for around 6
months, which would fit.

There are two "firm" dates that can be used - firstly Bill & Fleur's
wedding, which was on Harry's birthday (31st July) is when they first
went on the run. Secondly is when Harry and Hermione were in Godric's
Hollow, which was Christmas Eve/Day (5 months). IIRC it wasn't much
longer after that when Ron returned, they visited Lovegood and was then
captured.

Does that sound about right?

Ta muchly.

-- 
 Andy Mills




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Dec  1 03:45:03 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 03:45:03 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF50113.6030201@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <id4gbv+k9dr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189818


> Shelley:
> Bart, your premise still states that Voldemort could treat people 
> "nicely" (as in what you would do to a useful tool) on purpose. Name 
> even one other Death Eater than Voldemort considered the feelings of or 
> did anything remotely nice for? The only reason he keeps people around 
> is that he needs them, but he doesn't give anyone a choice in it, and 
> neither does he play favorites or dote affection, as much a Bellatrix 
> desired it. <snip> What is missing in this case is something that is 
> painfully required of Snape in exchange for his wish granted.
>

Pippin:
What is  required of Snape is to spy on Albus Dumbledore at Hogwarts itself, at great personal risk, with no chance to Apparate out of trouble or use the  Dark Mark to summon aid if he is caught.  And there will be little opportunity to indulge in  the pleasures that being a Death Eater affords. Snape will have to confine himself to handing out unfair detentions to ickle firsties,  which is a bit of a come down for someone who's a specialist in the Sectum Sempra curse.

 As  for the  talent extraordinary enough to impress Voldemort, we know what it is, and it's not potion making or curses. Gifted as Snape is in those areas, Voldemort's gifts are greater. Riddle  is called the most brilliant student that Hogwarts has ever seen. IIRC, he won every award and distinction the school had to offer. Snape is just not in that class.  

What Snape does have,  and Voldemort says he always admires, is courage. The courage not only to voluntarily spy on Dumbledore  in Hogsmeade, but to keep his head and talk his way out of trouble when he was caught red-handed. Even Voldemort himself could not do that.

Such a one would not lack the courage to name the reward he desired. If no other DE ever was granted such a request, perhaps it is because no other DE ever dared to make one. 

So, shouldn't  Snape have been punished for daring to suggest that  serving his master was not the only reward he could hope for and indeed the only one he deserved? That would be in character for an Evil Overlord. But, IMO, it wouldn't be in character for Voldemort.

Voldemort  has one talent that sets him apart, one gift that his real life and fictional counterparts do not have.  When people tell Voldie that they exist only to serve him, he *knows* they are lying. He knows  that people always  want  things for themselves and he can look right inside their heads and see what they are: protection, maybe, but also glory, power, riches...and victims. Some don't want anything *but* victims. Dementors, for example. 

If Voldemort wasn't willing to accept  followers on those terms, he wouldn't have any. But no matter. Voldemort has never insisted on keeping all the power or treasure or victims for  himself, only the  important ones. His servants can have  the spares. 

 It's  no more "doing stuff" for them than dangling a carrot in front of a donkey to make it go is kindness to animals.

Voldemort has no particular reason to see that Snape ever actually gets the carrot. But equally there is no reason to destroy it -- unless it becomes more trouble than it is worth.

Pippin










From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  1 03:24:53 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:24:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lily being spared
Message-ID: <349922.43461.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189819

June:
> Dumbledore said that it was Lily's sacrifice to give her life
in place of Harry's that caused the protection and Harry even
in Order of the Phoenix at the beginning after finding  out that
it could just as easily been Neville was wondering himself if
it had been Neville would Neville's mother have been able to
protect him the way his mother did so that the protection would
have been given to Neville. Don't forget too Dumbledore knew
every thing. He himself said that even he can be wrong about
things but he was aware of every thing that went on around Harry
and he knew all about Snape and what he was up to and if the
protection set by Lily's actions had any thing to do whatsoever
with Snape, Dumbledore would know that and what he told Harry
was that it was Lily's love for him that set the protection. <

luirhys:
I hate to be repetitive here, but we already KNOW that it was
Lily's sacrifice that triggered the blood protection. The point
is  that it was a set of unique circumstances that made it that
way. Let's take a look at the list of events:

1. LV decides to kill Potter boy
2. Snape begs him to spare the mother
3. He AGREES
4. LV goes off to kill baby
5. Potter husband gets in the way, he kills him
6. Potter mother gets in the way, he GIVES HER THE CHANCE TO STEP AWAY
7. Potter mother says to kill her INSTEAD
8. yada yada,
9. she's so noisy, LV decides to kill her
10. He tries to kill Potter boy- the curse bounces

Now lets take a look if it was the Longbottoms LV decided to stalk
1. LV decides to kill Longbottom boy
2. SNAPE KNOWS ITS THE LONGBOTTOM BOY THAT LV WANTS TO KILL
3. NO DEATHEATER CRONY IN LOVE WITH THE MOTHER TO MAKE HIM SPARE HER LIFE
4. LV goes off to kill baby
5. Longbottom husband gets in the way, he kills him
6. Longbottom mother gets in the way, she shields her son
7. He kills her
8. he kills Longbottom boy
9. No blood sacrifice triggered

YES, it was LOVE that triggered it. BUT if it was another mother,
shielding their child from LV. It would not have the same effect
because they were not given the CHOICE TO STAND ASIDE.
I have finally found that **** interview. JK explains it better
than I do, anyway.

[Lily] could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be
killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying James
wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was
going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice,
so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are
distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the
caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher
because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal
mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her
courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to
choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house,
isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood
you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do?
I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their
child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down
her life. She had a clear choice -

ES: And James didn't.
JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically
given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's
slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing
in front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it
never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one,
therefore, knew that could happen.
MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever
gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular
way.

(sources: US hardcover editions, PS 8-17 & 55-57; CS 332-333;
   PA 204-207 & 358-375; GF 652-653; OP 835-836 & 841)






From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Dec  1 04:08:59 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:08:59 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <id3msq+5pse@eGroups.com>
References: <id3msq+5pse@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CF5CA5B.7030105@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189820

On 11/30/2010 1:30 PM, e2fanbev wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shelley<k12listmomma at ...>  wrote:
>> About the flying without a broom idea- watch the progress made in
>> sports. Often, there is a standard like the 4 minute mile that is
>> considered a limitation, until someone breaks it. Then, everyone is
>> shooting for that new level or skill, because it's been "proven" to be
>> possible. It's people's minds that hold them back, and I wouldn't be
>> surprised to see the following year a handful of Hogwarts children doing
>> this stunt, as if it were possible all along. Adults are shocked by it,
>> but the kids would just accept that it IS POSSIBLE, and therefore, they
>> just need to figure out how to do it too!
>>
>
>
> Bev:
>
> A long time ago I posted the suggestion that Lily had the ability to fly without a broom. In the playground scene when she first meets young Snape she is demonstrating for Petunia her ability to keep herself airborne- without a wand- and land gently. I was told rather dismissively that I was reading too much into "baby magic." Well, any talent whether magical or not has to start somewhere. I still believe Lily had a natural ability to do it. Think of what she could have done with a wand. Why else would JKR mention it in the same story where two others demonstrate the abilty?
>
> Going back to lurkdom,
> Bev
Shelley:
I think you are right, with some slight modification. I think she had 
what she had developed was a form of "feather fall", where she slowed 
her decent. I think it may be a precursor to the flying without a wand, 
because it's more like gliding downward. Notice she did it from a swing, 
which is quite different from starting low and climbing in elevation. 
But, with practice and without any sort of "no, that's not how it's 
done" discouragement, yes, I think she could have been doing that same 
thing.

I will disagree strongly with what you said though about a "wand"- 
notice all the kids are doing magic without wands before they get to 
school. When they get to school, they are told they "need" wands. I can 
just imagine what they could do wandless if they were never taught to 
use a wand, but instead were told that they alone were magical. I agree 
that it's not "baby magic", but just magic uncomplicated by adult rules 
of how it should be.



From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Dec  1 04:46:22 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:46:22 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <id4gbv+k9dr@eGroups.com>
References: <id4gbv+k9dr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CF5D31E.6060108@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189821

On 11/30/2010 8:45 PM, pippin_999 wrote:
>> Shelley:
>> Bart, your premise still states that Voldemort could treat people
>> "nicely" (as in what you would do to a useful tool) on purpose. Name
>> even one other Death Eater than Voldemort considered the feelings of or
>> did anything remotely nice for? The only reason he keeps people around
>> is that he needs them, but he doesn't give anyone a choice in it, and
>> neither does he play favorites or dote affection, as much a Bellatrix
>> desired it.<snip>  What is missing in this case is something that is
>> painfully required of Snape in exchange for his wish granted.
>>
> Pippin:
> What is  required of Snape is to spy on Albus Dumbledore at Hogwarts itself, at great personal risk, with no chance to Apparate out of trouble or use the  Dark Mark to summon aid if he is caught.  And there will be little opportunity to indulge in  the pleasures that being a Death Eater affords. Snape will have to confine himself to handing out unfair detentions to ickle firsties,  which is a bit of a come down for someone who's a specialist in the Sectum Sempra curse.
>
>   As  for the  talent extraordinary enough to impress Voldemort, we know what it is, and it's not potion making or curses. Gifted as Snape is in those areas, Voldemort's gifts are greater. Riddle  is called the most brilliant student that Hogwarts has ever seen. IIRC, he won every award and distinction the school had to offer. Snape is just not in that class.
>
> What Snape does have,  and Voldemort says he always admires, is courage. The courage not only to voluntarily spy on Dumbledore  in Hogsmeade, but to keep his head and talk his way out of trouble when he was caught red-handed. Even Voldemort himself could not do that.
>
> Such a one would not lack the courage to name the reward he desired. If no other DE ever was granted such a request, perhaps it is because no other DE ever dared to make one.
>
> So, shouldn't  Snape have been punished for daring to suggest that  serving his master was not the only reward he could hope for and indeed the only one he deserved? That would be in character for an Evil Overlord. But, IMO, it wouldn't be in character for Voldemort.
>
> Voldemort  has one talent that sets him apart, one gift that his real life and fictional counterparts do not have.  When people tell Voldie that they exist only to serve him, he *knows* they are lying. He knows  that people always  want  things for themselves and he can look right inside their heads and see what they are: protection, maybe, but also glory, power, riches...and victims. Some don't want anything *but* victims. Dementors, for example.
>
> If Voldemort wasn't willing to accept  followers on those terms, he wouldn't have any. But no matter. Voldemort has never insisted on keeping all the power or treasure or victims for  himself, only the  important ones. His servants can have  the spares.
>
>   It's  no more "doing stuff" for them than dangling a carrot in front of a donkey to make it go is kindness to animals.
>
> Voldemort has no particular reason to see that Snape ever actually gets the carrot. But equally there is no reason to destroy it -- unless it becomes more trouble than it is worth.
>
> Pippin
Shelley:
Pippin, you and I must see Voldemort very differently. Yes, I fully 
agree with you that Voldemort can see inside of people's head and name 
what it is they desire (fame, power, victims) but that's all we agree 
on. I think Voldemort uses those traits to get what he wants, he used 
those desires to manipulate people to his end. It's never a carrot in 
front of someone's face, it's more like the control of an abusive 
boyfriend that has enough charisma to "always find your sore spots" so 
he can keep manipulating you and making you feel guilty even though he's 
the ass. Voldemort only "allows" people prizes or spoils if he suits his 
needs- the Malfoys are allowed to have riches and when Voldemort needs a 
meeting place, watch how fast he moves into the Malfoy manor to take 
over. He allowed Lucius to have the diary just to hide it- he never 
expected him to use it, even after Voldemort was presumed dead. People 
are allowed wands until Voldemort demands it from them. Bellatrix is 
allowed to have a bank vault so the Horcrux has a place to hide. For 
Voldemort's benefit only, always. When you use a carrot to lead an 
animal, and then the job is done, you feed them for real. Voldemort 
never feeds his people. Again, the hand of Wormtail is the key example. 
"Oh thank you master" Wormtail says, too ignorant to figure out yet this 
"gift" is really a curse designed to take his life if he is ever 
disloyal again. That wasn't a damn carrot- it was a noose around his 
neck. Every Death Eater knew it, and if they didn't, they were as good 
as dead too.



From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Dec  1 14:55:03 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 09:55:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <id26os+efnk@eGroups.com>
References: <id26os+efnk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CF661C7.6080509@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189822

Mike wrote:
> OK, I'll play. James and Sirius figured out how to complete the difficult and dangerous Animagi transformation, and teach Peter how to do it, by the age of 15. After all, we don't know the level of curses Severus learned, but we do know that the Animgi transformation was way beyond a 5th year level. Does that make them geniuses?

Bart:
James & Sirius learned to do something complex, but where the 
methodology was already known. Sevvy came up with original magic and 
improvements. As far as the Half Blood Prince textbook, if Sevvy 
intended it as a teacher's guide, then it would not have been in with 
the extra books. Many of the notes were clearly written when he was a 
student, and there is no indication that any of the notes were written 
at a later time.

And Morty DID have a way of spotting talent. Remember, the whole 
"pure-blood" thing was a sham, used by Morty to get a bunch of wealth 
behind him. For talent, he took whatever he could find. And you don't 
hook in loyal followers with threats; that's a tool for maintaining 
loyalty, not getting it in the first place.

And, finally, let's face the facts: Morty DID offer to save Lily's life. 
His own fear of death and his sociopathy blinded him to the fact that 
Lily would so readily give up her own life to save the life of her baby; 
after all, she could always have another.

     Bart




From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Dec  1 15:10:52 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 10:10:52 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF50113.6030201@comcast.net>
References: <icviad+fs04@eGroups.com> <4CF43855.2070801@moosewise.com> <4CF44073.10105@comcast.net> <4CF45616.4050401@moosewise.com> <4CF50113.6030201@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4CF6657C.4030802@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189823

Shelley:
> Bart, your premise still states that Voldemort could treat people
> "nicely" (as in what you would do to a useful tool) on purpose. Name
> even one other Death Eater than Voldemort considered the feelings of or
> did anything remotely nice for? The only reason he keeps people around
> is that he needs them, but he doesn't give anyone a choice in it, and
> neither does he play favorites or dote affection, as much a Bellatrix
> desired it. They were all fighting to be claimed as his favorite, but as
> we see, Voldemort doesn't care for their feelings unless it's a
> manipulative tool for him to use. Snape's love for Lilly had to have
> been seen as a tool for Voldemort to use against Snape, otherwise he had
> no reason to even grant Snape's "personal favor". As we see with
> Wormtail, the hand that Wormtail was really thankful for was a curse
> that would murder him. What is missing in this case is something that is
> painfully required of Snape in exchange for his wish granted.

Bart:
I change the oil in my car regularly. That doesn't mean that I give a 
damn about the car's feelings.

While Morty didn't care, or for that matter even understand the feelings 
of his underlings, he DID see how he could use them to manipulate them. 
He didn't care if the follower was following him out of fear, love, 
gratitude or whatever, as long as the follower did what he was told. If 
it weren't for Snape, Morty wouldn't care one bit if Lily lived or died, 
as long as Harry died. Snape pushed the equation a little bit, but not 
too much, towards leaving Lily alive.

The problem is seeing Morty as arbitrarily evil, and he was not. He was 
not immoral as much as he was amoral. The major way in which he does not 
match the textbook definition of the sociopath/psychopath is his ability 
to take a long-term goal and stick to it. Whatever it took to reach his 
long term goal, he did, only paying attention to whether or not the rest 
of society considered it good or evil insofar as it had an effect on the 
long term goal.

     Bart





From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Dec  1 15:16:35 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 10:16:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF52B8C.6070000@comcast.net>
References: <id1rjr+vf2j@eGroups.com> <4CF47AAE.9040603@moosewise.com> <4CF52B8C.6070000@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4CF666D3.103@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189824

Shelley:
> We don't know if
> he was a "genius" per se, because a lot of mistaken genius to other
> people isn't so much a high IQ or high natural talent as much as a "fair
> amount" of IQ or raw talent coupled with a STRONG drive and desire to
> use one's talents.

Bart:

     And, frankly, if we were concerned with textbook definitions here, 
that would be highly relevant. The question, however, is whether or not 
Morty considered Snape to be sufficiently useful as to be worth making a 
genuine offer of a reward as a way of increasing Snape's loyalty. The 
fact that he did makes the question kind of moot, although many seem to 
feel it worth arguing that Morty, totally against character, made an 
effort to reward someone of little importance.

     Bart




From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Dec  1 15:28:56 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 10:28:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <170694.80562.qm@web113908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <170694.80562.qm@web113908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CF669B8.2050409@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189825

June:
> I am sure everyone here read that but knowing a lot of curses
> does not make one a genius and does not necessarily make Voldemort
> see him as useful. Maybe you did not read (like the rest of us
> did) that Dumbledore had said that Voldemort did not consider
> anyone to be his friend. He really had no use for anyone in a
> personal way and only used people. He wouldn't care what Snape
> was capable of.

  Bart:
     To the contrary, Morty ONLY cared what Snape was capable of. Yes, 
he did dispose of people who were no longer useful to him. So, why, 
instead of promising Snape to spare Lily's life, didn't he just AK Snape?

     Bart




From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Dec  1 15:37:37 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 10:37:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A quick(ish) question
In-Reply-To: <1013862627.20101201000639@ajm.me.uk>
References: <1013862627.20101201000639@ajm.me.uk>
Message-ID: <4CF66BC1.2070904@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189826

Andy Mills wrote:
> I'm writing a review on the Deathly Hallows film, and I am trying to
> remember how long Harry, Hermione and Ron were on the run for (I did try
> a Google search, but just got a boat load of results about the film's
> run time). If I recall, JKR said in an interview it was for around 6
> months, which would fit.

     I recall a discussion about this around the time that DH was 
released. However, as far as the medium that must not be named (although 
you named it) goes, changes ARE made for the purpose of storytelling.

     You might do well to look at the archives of the group, and locate 
the discussion. I know that I was definitely involved in it.

     I don't recall the details, although, literarily speaking, Easter 
would be a good time for the Battle of Hogwarts.

     Bart




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  1 16:53:37 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:53:37 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF47AAE.9040603@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <id5uih+8i36@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189827

Mike wrote:
> > I don't know that memorizing a bunch of curses makes Severus a genius. Smart guy I'll grant, and probably powerfully magical; though we really don't get to see him in action other than against kids and that master of showmanship and little else, Gilderoy Lockhart.
> >
> > He did invent his own spells, well, at least Sectumsempra. But at the time of Snape asking LV to save Lily, I don't see LV recognizing anything out of Snape other than he overheard a prophesy and would probably make a good spy.
> 
> Bart:
>      Let's see. A 10 year old having a knowledge of curses on the level of advanced 17 year olds is pretty impressive. Creating methodologies for potions that were easier and more effective than those in the advanced textbook is pretty impressive, too. His occlumancy skills are such that Morty doesn't even know that Snape is hiding his thoughts. And note that, other than Morty, he is the only wizard who managed to learn the "flying without a broomstick" method. Just to name a few things off the top of my head.

Carol responds:
I agree with Bart. I just want to add that in addition to Sectumsempra (and, presumbly, its chantlike countercurse) there are the hexes that Harry so greatly admired in HBP (I can't remember them all, but there's a toenail hex and the mysteriously popular nonverbal spell Levicorpus and its countercurse, Liberacorpus) and the highly useful charm that Hermione, despite knowing who invented it, uses so frequently in DH, Muffliato.

Harry or Ron, not know the identity of the HBP, refers to him as a genius. I think only Dumbledore fully appreciates Snape's brilliance. Unfortunately, he seldom praises him--even though he owes his life to Snape (as do Katie Bell and Draco before the end of HBP).

I agree with Mike that LV probably didn't know the extent of Snape's brilliance and with Bart that he certainly didn't know that Snape was using undetectable Occlumency against him (as illustrated in the first chapter of DH). I can only account for his promise to spare Lily (which, according to JKR, he intended to keep, no doubt because it cost him nothing to keep *her* alive, Harry being the only threat to his "immortality") because he asked the young Snape to name his own reward. Snape must have begun having doubts (and gone to DD out of desperation) somewhat later when he learned that LV intended to go after the Potters. Harry was not yet born (and, if my theory is correct, just barely conceived) when Snape reported the partial prophecy to LV, so, not having any idea that it involved the Potters, LV would not have hesitated to grant such a minor request. (Why not make an unwilling mistress out of a "Muggle" Order member? IMO, that's how he would see it.)

At any rate, he must, I think, have promised Severus that he would spare Lily at a point when he was "merely" killing off Order members one by one, not when he was specifically targeting Harry and his family. I doubt that Snape would go to LV at that point to request his reward. He must have seen the danger that LV might go back on his word and gone to Dumbledore for help.

Admittedly, JRR's time frame is far from clear, but that's the only way the promise to Snape--which LV *had* to have intended to honor for Lily to have that crucial choice that makes possible the Love Magic--makes sense to me.

Carol, wondering how many OWLs Severus earned and thinking it odd that JKR never informed us




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  1 17:35:51 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:35:51 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF666D3.103@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <id611n+ssr6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189828

Shelley wrote:
> > We don't know if he was a "genius" per se, because a lot of mistaken genius to other people isn't so much a high IQ or high natural talent as much as a "fair amount" of IQ or raw talent coupled with a STRONG drive and desire to use one's talents.
> 
Bart responded:
> 
>      And, frankly, if we were concerned with textbook definitions here, that would be highly relevant. The question, however, is whether or not Morty considered Snape to be sufficiently useful as to be worth making a genuine offer of a reward as a way of increasing Snape's loyalty. The fact that he did makes the question kind of moot, although many seem to feel it worth arguing that Morty, totally against character, made an effort to reward someone of little importance.

Carol adds:

I agree with Shelley on one point: Severus Snape's strong drive to succeed (the ambition which, along with his belief that Slytherin was the House for "brains" and his desire to be placed there) landed him in Slytherin. But, as I stated in an earlier post, I also believe that he was a genius.

But I also agree with Bart that LV would not reward a follower of little importance. Snape had just proven his worth, if LV had been disposed to doubt it, by revealing the partial prophecy. We're always hearing the phrase "rewarded above all others" from LV or the DEs or Snape himself. Snape's reward (the promise to spare Lily's life) and the secretly cursed reward of Wormtail's silver hand are the only examples I recall from canon, but they can't be the only real examples or the phrase itself would have become meaningless. (Maybe we should count his placing sufficient trust in Bellatrix and Lucius, placing Horcruxes in their protection--though without telling them the real worth of those treasures--as rewards for loyalty. That he later regretted doing so is beside the point.) At any rate, the silver hand, bestowed in front of a circle of DEs, demonstrated that he did indeed keep his promise to reward Wormtail and compensate him for his sacrifice with something "better" than his human hand (though Wormtail could not know the double meaning behind LV's words). Was there some double meaning behind his promise to spare Lily? I think not. Wormtail had demonstrated weakness, cowardliness, and wavering loyalty. Snape had not and did not. LV never knew that Snape was working against him. Who else could have pulled that off?

Both LV and Dumbledore assign critical tasks to Snape that they assign--and can assign--to no one else (see DD's comments in HBP). Who besides the young Snape could LV have assigned to apply for a teaching position at Hogwarts? Snape's ability to hide the fact that he was a DE from most of the WW was reason enough to send *him* rather than, say, Travers or Yaxley. LV must have expected Snape to actually convince DD to hire him (as he did not hire LV himself) to teach DADA (for which LV must have known that Snape had a gift). That DD actually hired him to teach Potions (for which he also had a gift) would not have mattered to LV, who only wanted him there to spy without detection on Dumbledore and convince the old man that he had changed his ways and was loyal to him, not to LV. (Of course, Snape's other great talent, his superb Occlumency, prevented LV from knowing that the "lie" he expected Snape to tell without detection by the great Dumbledore was actually the truth.

Carol, who suspects that LV could tell a Snape from a Yaxley just as he could tell a Lucius Malfoy from a Fenrir Greyback and that he set them all tasks for which they were suited




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Dec  1 18:40:20 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 11:40:20 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF666D3.103@moosewise.com>
References: <id1rjr+vf2j@eGroups.com> <4CF47AAE.9040603@moosewise.com> <4CF52B8C.6070000@comcast.net> <4CF666D3.103@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <4CF69694.9010603@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189829

On 12/1/2010 8:16 AM, Bart Lidofsky wrote:
> Shelley:
>> We don't know if
>> he was a "genius" per se, because a lot of mistaken genius to other
>> people isn't so much a high IQ or high natural talent as much as a "fair
>> amount" of IQ or raw talent coupled with a STRONG drive and desire to
>> use one's talents.
> Bart:
>
>       And, frankly, if we were concerned with textbook definitions here,
> that would be highly relevant. The question, however, is whether or not
> Morty considered Snape to be sufficiently useful as to be worth making a
> genuine offer of a reward as a way of increasing Snape's loyalty. The
> fact that he did makes the question kind of moot, although many seem to
> feel it worth arguing that Morty, totally against character, made an
> effort to reward someone of little importance.
>
>       Bart
Shelley:
Bart, you are twisting that. No one said that Snape was of "little 
importance", but rather we are exploring the question of why would 
Voldemort even grant the request in the first place? I see at all where 
Voldemort says "sure, I'll do this for you, and in return I expect your 
loyalty. Far from it, Snape was already a Death Eater, and his loyalty 
was "Expected!" The question was why would he need to "reward" anyone? 
Wormtail's "reward" was a death trap.





From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Dec  1 19:10:10 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 12:10:10 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <id611n+ssr6@eGroups.com>
References: <id611n+ssr6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CF69D92.60907@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189830


> Carol adds:
>
> Was there some double meaning behind his promise to spare Lily? I think not. Wormtail had demonstrated weakness, cowardliness, and wavering loyalty. Snape had not and did not. LV never knew that Snape was working against him. Who else could have pulled that off?
>
> Both LV and Dumbledore assign critical tasks to Snape that they assign--and can assign--to no one else (see DD's comments in HBP). Who besides the young Snape could LV have assigned to apply for a teaching position at Hogwarts? Snape's ability to hide the fact that he was a DE from most of the WW was reason enough to send *him* rather than, say, Travers or Yaxley. LV must have expected Snape to actually convince DD to hire him (as he did not hire LV himself) to teach DADA (for which LV must have known that Snape had a gift). That DD actually hired him to teach Potions (for which he also had a gift) would not have mattered to LV, who only wanted him there to spy without detection on Dumbledore and convince the old man that he had changed his ways and was loyal to him, not to LV. (Of course, Snape's other great talent, his superb Occlumency, prevented LV from knowing that the "lie" he expected Snape to tell without detection by the great Dumbledore was actually the truth.
>
> Carol, who suspects that LV could tell a Snape from a Yaxley just as he could tell a Lucius Malfoy from a Fenrir Greyback and that he set them all tasks for which they were suited

Shelley:
I know I'm snipping quite a bit, but I am making the assumption that 
someone could follow the subject line to get the whole conversation if 
they wanted.

About this point- the double meaning behind saving Lily- I think there 
had to have been some means to keep her from getting revenge.  I mean, 
no person in their right mind (and granted, Voldemort wasn't), would 
think that you could just murder their husband, murder their child right 
in front of them and think that person wouldn't do everything within 
their power to get back at the murderer. We don't have anything written 
for us to say what Voldemort would have done with an "alive" Lily, sole 
survivor of her young family, but it's quite possible that he would have 
tortered her to the point where she was technically alive but totally 
useless to Dumbledore and the others fighting him. Snape would have her 
alive, as promised, but Voldemort would also have his way in removing 
her as an obstacle to his future plans. Or he could have done something 
to her to turn her into an agent for the Death Eaters (we see evidence 
of his first go around, people that claimed to have been cursed 
unwillingly, into acting for Voldemort). Maybe he was thinking this 
brilliant witch in her own right could be a spy against Dumbledore.

Carol, you ask it yourself: "Who besides the young Snape could LV have 
assigned to apply for a teaching position at Hogwarts?"  Hmm....let's 
see.... a talented young witch to whom Snape's potion abilities were 
second to? The young and talented Lily Potter, who could plead to 
Dumbledore for a job to keep her mind off her recent tragedies, and for 
protection from Voldemort himself, as the Hogwart's Castle is safe?




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Dec  1 19:15:02 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 12:15:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF69694.9010603@comcast.net>
References: <id1rjr+vf2j@eGroups.com> <4CF47AAE.9040603@moosewise.com> <4CF52B8C.6070000@comcast.net> <4CF666D3.103@moosewise.com> <4CF69694.9010603@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4CF69EB6.90508@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189831

On 12/1/2010 11:40 AM, Shelley wrote:
> On 12/1/2010 8:16 AM, Bart Lidofsky wrote:
>> Shelley:
>>> We don't know if
>>> he was a "genius" per se, because a lot of mistaken genius to other
>>> people isn't so much a high IQ or high natural talent as much as a "fair
>>> amount" of IQ or raw talent coupled with a STRONG drive and desire to
>>> use one's talents.
>> Bart:
>>
>>        And, frankly, if we were concerned with textbook definitions here,
>> that would be highly relevant. The question, however, is whether or not
>> Morty considered Snape to be sufficiently useful as to be worth making a
>> genuine offer of a reward as a way of increasing Snape's loyalty. The
>> fact that he did makes the question kind of moot, although many seem to
>> feel it worth arguing that Morty, totally against character, made an
>> effort to reward someone of little importance.
>>
>>        Bart
> Shelley:
> Bart, you are twisting that. No one said that Snape was of "little
> importance", but rather we are exploring the question of why would
> Voldemort even grant the request in the first place? I see at all where
> Voldemort says "sure, I'll do this for you, and in return I expect your
> loyalty. Far from it, Snape was already a Death Eater, and his loyalty
> was "Expected!" The question was why would he need to "reward" anyone?
> Wormtail's "reward" was a death trap.
Shelley: Sorry, I should proofread better. That line should have read: " 
I DON'T see at all where
Voldemort says "sure, I'll do this for you, and in return I expect your 
loyalty.""



From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Dec  1 15:23:14 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:23:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: A quick(ish) question
In-Reply-To: <1013862627.20101201000639@ajm.me.uk>
Message-ID: <912465.83816.qm@web113910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189832

Andy:
>> There are two "firm" dates that can be used - firstly Bill
& Fleur's wedding, which was on Harry's birthday (31st July)
is when they first went on the run. Secondly is when Harry and
Hermione were in Godric's Hollow, which was Christmas Eve/Day
(5 months). IIRC it wasn't much longer after that when Ron
returned, they visited Lovegood and was then captured.

Does that sound about right? <<


June:
That does sound right.











From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Dec  1 15:39:42 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:39:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <349922.43461.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <598691.58360.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189833



luirhys:
>>> I hate to be repetitive here, but we already KNOW that it was
Lily's sacrifice that triggered the blood protection. The point
is that it was a set of unique circumstances that made it that
way. Let's take a look at the list of events:

1. LV decides to kill Potter boy
2. Snape begs him to spare the mother
3. He AGREES
4. LV goes off to kill baby
5. Potter husband gets in the way, he kills him
6. Potter mother gets in the way, he GIVES HER THE CHANCE TO STEP AWAY
7. Potter mother says to kill her INSTEAD
8. yada yada,
9. she's so noisy, LV decides to kill her
10. He tries to kill Potter boy- the curse bounces

Now lets take a look if it was the Longbottoms LV decided to stalk
1. LV decides to kill Longbottom boy
2. SNAPE KNOWS ITS THE LONGBOTTOM BOY THAT LV WANTS TO KILL
3. NO DEATHEATER CRONY IN LOVE WITH THE MOTHER TO MAKE HIM SPARE HER LIFE
4. LV goes off to kill baby
5. Longbottom husband gets in the way, he kills him
6. Longbottom mother gets in the way, she shields her son
7. He kills her
8. he kills Longbottom boy
9. No blood sacrifice triggered

YES, it was LOVE that triggered it. BUT if it was another mother,
shielding their child from LV. It would not have the same effect
because they were not given the CHOICE TO STAND ASIDE.
I have finally found that **** interview. JK explains it better
than I do, anyway.

[Lily] could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be
killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying James
wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was
going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice,
so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are
distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the
caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher
because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal
mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her
courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to
choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house,
isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood
you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do?
I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their
child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down
her life. She had a clear choice -

ES: And James didn't.
JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically
given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's
slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing
in front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it
never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one,
therefore, knew that could happen.
MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever
gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular
way.  <<<

June:
I am aware of all those things, I have read the books several
times but in my opinion those things only led up to what happened
and it was totally Lily's love that cast the spell. That is the
way I understood it and I thought this group was all about
discussing the book and voicing out opinions. You seem to think
it is all about everyone has no right to an opinion and yours is
the only one that's right.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Dec  1 16:25:54 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 08:25:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF666D3.103@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <503530.2917.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189834

Bart:
>> <snip> The question, however, is whether or not Morty
considered Snape to be sufficiently useful as to be worth
making a genuine offer of a reward as a way of increasing
Snape's loyalty. The fact that he did makes the question
kind of moot, although many seem to feel it worth arguing
that Morty, totally against character, made an effort to
reward someone of little importance. <<


June:
Actually I think that since Voldemort was sending Snape to
Hogwarts that he may have thought sparing Lily would make
Snape more controllable. Any thing that Voldemort does for
anyone (as a few people have mentioned) he does for his own
good. I am sure he thought sparing Lily would make Snape his
but in the heat of the moment he killed her anyway.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Dec  1 22:14:54 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 22:14:54 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF5D31E.6060108@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <id6hcu+g83t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189835


> Shelley:
> Pippin, you and I must see Voldemort very differently. Yes, I fully 
> agree with you that Voldemort can see inside of people's head and name 
> what it is they desire (fame, power, victims) but that's all we agree 
> on. I think Voldemort uses those traits to get what he wants, he used 
> those desires to manipulate people to his end. It's never a carrot in 
> front of someone's face, it's more like the control of an abusive 
> boyfriend that has enough charisma to "always find your sore spots" so 
> he can keep manipulating you and making you feel guilty even though he's 
> the ass. <snip>When you use a carrot to lead an 
> animal, and then the job is done, you feed them for real. Voldemort 
> never feeds his people. 

Pippin:
That's a good description of the way Voldemort deals with some people, Ginny being an even better example than Wormtail, IMO. But it isn't the way he deals with everybody. "I'll give this to you and in return I expect your service" is exactly the deal he has with the dementors. They  can suck happiness and souls all they want, as long as they do his bidding.

Voldemort does not think any of his servants are truly loyal to him. But only some, like Pettigrew and Ginny,   have no desire of their own to perform the services he requires. Others, like the dementors,  or young Snape, are perfectly happy to do what is needed, not out of loyalty but out of their own desires, as long as they get what they want. Voldemort sees no reason not to take advantage of that. I agree that he does not care what they want, except as a means to get something he himself desires. But I don't agree that he perceives actually allowing them to get what they want as a kindness, even if we can see where snatching it away would be more cruel.

JKR gets a lot of plot mileage and a bit of humor out of the fact that Voldemort, even though he has no conscience to contend with, nonetheless has to juggle desires that are not exactly compatible with one another. His instincts for murder, cruelty and domination  get in each others' way. That's clearly seen in the Graveyard, when Voldemort must delay killing Harry so that he can torture and humiliate him. Voldemort has no philosophy of evil in order to help him decide among his warring instincts, he just does whatever seems most desirable at the moment. It's part of his pathology that no cognitive dissonance results. 

He keeps good track of what he gives and what he is promised  in return, and he's  harsh with servants who fail him. But the only measure of value he has is what is valuable to *him*. IOW, if  he does not need Lily, then he would not see himself as giving something of value to Snape, any more than he values the happiness and the souls consumed by the dementors. If Snape will feel rewarded by a gift of such trash, so much the better.

Pippin






From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Dec  1 21:40:41 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:40:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF69D92.60907@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <631818.19590.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189836

> Shelley:
> <snip>
> Carol, you ask it yourself: "Who besides the young Snape could
LV have assigned to apply for a teaching position at Hogwarts?"
Hmm....let's see.... a talented young witch to whom Snape's potion
abilities were second to? The young and talented Lily Potter, who
could plead to Dumbledore for a job to keep her mind off her recent
tragedies, and for protection from Voldemort himself, as the
Hogwart's Castle is safe? <


June:
Very good point Shelley. With Snape at Hogwarts as well he could
have (in Voldemort's mind) kept Lily under the imperius curse so
she would be loyal to Voldemort. I bet Voldemort did have a reason
himself for keeping her alive, however knowing that Snape was not
really on Voldemort's side, that would have given Dumbledore two
people to work for him as spies against Voldemort. There still
would have been a story there with Lily being in Harry's place but
it would have been a totally different story and probably wouldn't
have lasted 7 books unless those years were used to create a army
(like Dumbledore's Army but possibly more powerful) to rise up
against Voldemort.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  2 02:42:57 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 02:42:57 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF69D92.60907@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <id713h+q0gr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189837

Shelley wrote: 
> Carol, you ask it yourself: "Who besides the young Snape could LV have assigned to apply for a teaching position at Hogwarts?"  Hmm....let's see.... a talented young witch to whom Snape's potion abilities were second to? The young and talented Lily Potter, who could plead to Dumbledore for a job to keep her mind off her recent tragedies, and for protection from Voldemort himself, as the Hogwart's Castle is safe?

Carol responds:

I doubt that Snape's potion-making ability was second to Lily's. The only "evidence" for that is Slughorn's partiality, whereas the evidence for Snape's potion-making ability is all through the books. As for the rest of your suggestion, it's extracanonical (outside the books). Snape was already a DE and he was the only one qualified to do what he did for either DD or LV. As for Lily, we see Diary!Tom referring to her as "your Muggle mother." LV in the graveyard makes a similar reference, IIRC, comparing his Muggle father to Harry's "Muggle" mother. And to her face he calls her "silly girl."

I know that JKR says (and Hagrid thinks) that LV tried to recruit both her and James, but given LV's expressed view of her,it seems highly unlikely and out of character. Chalk it up to inconsistency on JKR's part.

Carol, who has to drop the thread before she exceeds her quota of posts





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Thu Dec  2 04:19:31 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 04:19:31 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF6657C.4030802@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <id76oj+jkrj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189838



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> Shelley:
> > Bart, your premise still states that Voldemort could treat people
> > "nicely" (as in what you would do to a useful tool) on purpose. Name
> > even one other Death Eater than Voldemort considered the feelings of or
> > did anything remotely nice for? The only reason he keeps people around
> > is that he needs them, but he doesn't give anyone a choice in it, and
> > neither does he play favorites or dote affection, as much a Bellatrix
> > desired it. They were all fighting to be claimed as his favorite, but as
> > we see, Voldemort doesn't care for their feelings unless it's a
> > manipulative tool for him to use. Snape's love for Lilly had to have
> > been seen as a tool for Voldemort to use against Snape, otherwise he had
> > no reason to even grant Snape's "personal favor". As we see with
> > Wormtail, the hand that Wormtail was really thankful for was a curse
> > that would murder him. What is missing in this case is something that is
> > painfully required of Snape in exchange for his wish granted.
> 
> Bart:
> I change the oil in my car regularly. That doesn't mean that I give a 
> damn about the car's feelings.
> 
> While Morty didn't care, or for that matter even understand the feelings 
> of his underlings, he DID see how he could use them to manipulate them. 
> He didn't care if the follower was following him out of fear, love, 
> gratitude or whatever, as long as the follower did what he was told. If 
> it weren't for Snape, Morty wouldn't care one bit if Lily lived or died, 
> as long as Harry died. Snape pushed the equation a little bit, but not 
> too much, towards leaving Lily alive.
> 
> The problem is seeing Morty as arbitrarily evil, and he was not. He was 
> not immoral as much as he was amoral. The major way in which he does not 
> match the textbook definition of the sociopath/psychopath is his ability 
> to take a long-term goal and stick to it. Whatever it took to reach his 
> long term goal, he did, only paying attention to whether or not the rest 
> of society considered it good or evil insofar as it had an effect on the 
> long term goal.
> 
>      Bart
>
Nikkalmati

I think we have to factor in the change that occured when LV became Vapormort and then revived.  Before that happened he was more human and not the complete sociopath we see after GOF.  Remember he was able to flatter and deceive Hepzibah Smith into showing him her treasres  He tried to manipulate DD also, when he applied for the DOD job.  He was aware that giving his followers what they wanted, an occasional boon, would keep them in line.  Even afterwards, he gave Nagini an occasional treat and certainly Barty Crouch expected great rewards (presumably to be named later).  

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Thu Dec  2 04:28:02 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 04:28:02 -0000
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <598691.58360.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <id778i+6lba@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189839



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> > 
> June:
> I am aware of all those things, I have read the books several
> times but in my opinion those things only led up to what happened
> and it was totally Lily's love that cast the spell. That is the
> way I understood it and I thought this group was all about
> discussing the book and voicing out opinions. You seem to think
> it is all about everyone has no right to an opinion and yours is
> the only one that's right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
Nikkalmati

I'm sure we have all read the books.  Thats why we are here.  The point being made is that Sna;e's request is a "necessary" precondition of the ove magic, because it gave Lily a choice.  The recurring theme of "choice".  Without Snape's request, Lily could have loved Harry more than any mother ever loved her child and she could have cast all the spells she wanted and it would have been of no effect.  Nothing unusual would have happened.

Nikkalmati 






From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Thu Dec  2 05:01:38 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:01:38 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <id5uih+8i36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <id797i+bd04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189840



> Carol responds:
> snip, snip>
 
> I can only account for his promise to spare Lily (which, according to JKR, he intended to keep, no doubt because it cost him nothing to keep *her* alive, Harry being the only threat to his "immortality") because he asked the young Snape to name his own reward. Snape must have begun having doubts (and gone to DD out of desperation) somewhat later when he learned that LV intended to go after the Potters. Harry was not yet born (and, if my theory is correct, just barely conceived) when Snape reported the partial prophecy to LV, so, not having any idea that it involved the Potters, LV would not have hesitated to grant such a minor request. (Why not make an unwilling mistress out of a "Muggle" Order member? IMO, that's how he would see it.)
> 
> At any rate, he must, I think, have promised Severus that he would spare Lily at a point when he was "merely" killing off Order members one by one, not when he was specifically targeting Harry and his family. I doubt that Snape would go to LV at that point to request his reward. He must have seen the danger that LV might go back on his word and gone to Dumbledore for help.
> 
> Admittedly, JRR's time frame is far from clear, but that's the only way the promise to Snape--which LV *had* to have intended to honor for Lily to have that crucial choice that makes possible the Love Magic--makes sense to me.
> 
> Carol, wondering how many OWLs Severus earned and thinking it odd that JKR never informed us
>
Nikkalmati

I am not sure.  Of course we are speculating here.  I have doubts LV would have felt bound by a promise almost a year old - unless Snape had reminded him. 

I am impressed with the way JKR portrayed Snape's coming to DD even in fear of his life.  Snape acted like he had just found out what LV was going to do - hunt down and kill the child(ren) that threatened him and their families. I pictured him in that shocked and distressed state rushing first to LV and requesting that Lily should be spared.  LV agrees (for his own reasons), but Snape has no confidence in that agreement.  Maybe he feels that LV is not to be trusted or maybe he realizes that Lily will fight to the death in any case.  His only chance is to go to DD at the risk of his own life to ask that he protect Lily, so he immediately contacts DD in some way and meets him on the hilltop.  DD also promises to protect Lily and her family in return for Snape's service.  Sometimes you just can't win.

Nikkalmati    




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  2 05:41:21 2010
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 05:41:21 -0000
Subject: A quick(ish) question
In-Reply-To: <4CF66BC1.2070904@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <id7bi1+10dg0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189841





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:

> Easter would be a good time for the Battle of Hogwarts.

zanooda: 

They were captured around Easter (Draco was home from Hogwarts). As for the battle, it happened at the beginning of May, because May was mentioned in Ch.26, the morning of Gringotts break-in. I remember reading somewhere (not in the book though) that the battle happened on May 2nd, but I can't remember where :-).




From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  2 00:59:24 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 16:59:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <598691.58360.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <598691.58360.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <858073.92224.qm@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189842

<snip>

June: 
> I am aware of all those things, I have read the books several 
times but in my opinion those things only led up to what happened 
and it was totally Lily's love that cast the spell. That is the 
way I understood it and I thought this group was all about 
discussing the book and voicing out opinions. You seem to think 
it is all about everyone has no right to an opinion and yours is 
the only one that's right. <

luirhys:
Sorry if I'm coming across that way, I did not mean to demean 
your opinion. I just wanted to clear the fact that if it had 
been Neville's mother, or any other mother- even though 
undoubtedly, they would shield and sacrifice themselves for 
their child- it would not have the same effect. We not have 
another boy/girl who lived. 

Which makes me think, would the series have worked if it was a "Harrieta"?






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  2 16:26:02 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:26:02 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <id797i+bd04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <id8haq+orcu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189843

Carol earlier:
> > snip, snip>
>  
> > I can only account for his promise to spare Lily (which, according to JKR, he intended to keep, no doubt because it cost him nothing to keep *her* alive, Harry being the only threat to his "immortality") because he asked the young Snape to name his own reward. Snape must have begun having doubts (and gone to DD out of desperation) somewhat later when he learned that LV intended to go after the Potters. Harry was not yet born (and, if my theory is correct, just barely conceived) when Snape reported the partial prophecy to LV, so, not having any idea that it involved the Potters, LV would not have hesitated to grant such a minor request. (Why not make an unwilling mistress out of a "Muggle" Order member? IMO, that's how he would see it.)
> > 
> > At any rate, he must, I think, have promised Severus that he would spare Lily at a point when he was "merely" killing off Order members one by one, not when he was specifically targeting Harry and his family. I doubt that Snape would go to LV at that point to request his reward. He must have seen the danger that LV might go back on his word and gone to Dumbledore for help.
> > 
> > Admittedly, JRR's time frame is far from clear, but that's the only way the promise to Snape--which LV *had* to have intended to honor for Lily to have that crucial choice that makes possible the Love Magic--makes sense to me.
> > 
> > Carol, wondering how many OWLs Severus earned and thinking it odd that JKR never informed us
> >
> Nikkalmati
> 
> I am not sure.  Of course we are speculating here.  I have doubts LV would have felt bound by a promise almost a year old - unless Snape had reminded him. 
> 
> I am impressed with the way JKR portrayed Snape's coming to DD even in fear of his life.  Snape acted like he had just found out what LV was going to do - hunt down and kill the child(ren) that threatened him and their families. I pictured him in that shocked and distressed state rushing first to LV and requesting that Lily should be spared.  LV agrees (for his own reasons), but Snape has no confidence in that agreement.  Maybe he feels that LV is not to be trusted or maybe he realizes that Lily will fight to the death in any case.  His only chance is to go to DD at the risk of his own life to ask that he protect Lily, so he immediately contacts DD in some way and meets him on the hilltop.  DD also promises to protect Lily and her family in return for Snape's service.  Sometimes you just can't win.
> 
> Nikkalmati
>
Carol responds:

I completely agree that when Snape goes to DD, he has just found out that LV is targeting children, in particular Harry Potter, and their families. His desperation is evident, as you say, and had he known earlier what LV was doing, he would have gone to DD earlier. (Why LV took so long to decide on a course of action is unclear, but that's JKR for you.)

But my point was simply that we keep hearing about Voldemort rewarding some especially loyal follower "above all others." Surely, he would have asked Severus to name his reward at the time he performed the service (reporting the partial prophecy)--at a time when Harry was not yet born and probably neither Snape nor Voldemort even knew that she was pregnant). I can't see young Snape going to LV and belatedly asking for a reward a year or even two after the Prophecy, hiding his anxiety for Lily's life through Occlumency. (Had he even mastered Occlumency--and his acting abilities--at that point?) It seems to me more likely (though, as you say, we're speculating) that he asked that she be spared when she was in the same (grave)danger as the Order members but was not being specifically targeted. Possibly, when he learned that LV was targeting the Potters, he reminded him of his promise (which, as we know but Snape didn't, Voldemort intended to keep--until Lily became an annoyance). Clearly, Snape himself felt some doubts on the reliability of LV's word.

Carol, who feels that the time frame for the Prophecy and subsequent events is extremely unclear




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Dec  2 14:17:51 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 06:17:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <858073.92224.qm@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <954361.68402.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189844


luirhys:
> Sorry if I'm coming across that way, I did not mean to
> demean your opinion. I just wanted to clear the fact that
> if it had been Neville's mother, or any other mother- even
> though undoubtedly, they would shield and sacrifice
> themselves for their child- it would not have the same
> effect. We not have another boy/girl who lived.
>
> Which makes me think, would the series have worked if it
> was a "Harrieta"?


June:
The prophecy stated that Voldemort himself would mark the boy
who would one day stand against him. In other words it was
either Harry or Neville and Voldemort himself would go after
one of them and it would be Voldemort who would create his own
enemy (this is at the end of Goblet of Fire and said by
Dumbledore). According to Dumbledore it was either Harry or
Neville and Voldemort would be the one to decide, therefore if
he had gone after Neville and not Harry, Neville would have
been the boy who lived. Therefore I cannot see how Snape's love
for Lily would have anything to do with it. Snape's love for
Lily is just part of the theme which is love conquers all.










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Dec  2 14:33:19 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 06:33:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Nagini (was Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations)
In-Reply-To: <id76oj+jkrj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <544857.7008.qm@web113901.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189845

Nikkalmati:
> I think we have to factor in the change that occured when
LV became Vapormort and then revived. <snip>  Even afterwards,
he gave Nagini an occasional treat and certainly Barty Crouch
expected great rewards (presumably to be named later). <


June:
Nikkalmati I love your name for Voldemort during the time
between his first run in with Harry and his come back.
I think Voldemort's relationship though with Nagini is
different than his relationship with his followers for two
reasons:
1) Nagini was Voldemort's pet and as a pet owner I can tell
you we tend to treat our pets more like our children than
pets and we do pamper them.
2) Nagini was also a Horcrux so he would have to treat her
well because he didn't want any thing to happen to his
Horcrux.
Dumbledore even said at one point that Nagini was the closest
to being cherished as a friend by Voldemort (not those exact
words but the same idea).












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Dec  2 20:39:00 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 20:39:00 -0000
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <954361.68402.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <id9054+fio0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189846


> 
> 
> June:
> The prophecy stated that Voldemort himself would mark the boy
> who would one day stand against him. In other words it was
> either Harry or Neville and Voldemort himself would go after
> one of them and it would be Voldemort who would create his own
> enemy (this is at the end of Goblet of Fire and said by
> Dumbledore). According to Dumbledore it was either Harry or
> Neville and Voldemort would be the one to decide, therefore if
> he had gone after Neville and not Harry, Neville would have
> been the boy who lived. Therefore I cannot see how Snape's love
> for Lily would have anything to do with it. Snape's love for
> Lily is just part of the theme which is love conquers all.
> 
> 
Potioncat:
DD has a way of only telling a part of the truth. From his standpoint both boys fit the description. I'm not sure if DD really thinks Neville would fit the prophecy or if he just means both boys fit the description.

But what if LV had chosen Neville? Alice would have died. Neville would have died.  LV would have been just fine. His soul would be a tad more ripped--and after a while (moments or weeks or years) he would begin to wonder if he had chosen wrong. He would have gone after the Potter boy too.

And again we'd have Lily being given an option to stand aside because of LV's promise to Snape. So while Snape doesn't really understand that he played a roll in making the prophecy come true--he did.

potioncat, who hasn't had a chance to completely read this thread and hoping I've added something new.








From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Dec  2 22:57:32 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 22:57:32 -0000
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <id9054+fio0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <id988s+ivt8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189847


 June:
According to Dumbledore it was either Harry or
> > Neville and Voldemort would be the one to decide, therefore if
> > he had gone after Neville and not Harry, Neville would have
> > been the boy who lived. Therefore I cannot see how Snape's love
> > for Lily would have anything to do with it. Snape's love for
> > Lily is just part of the theme which is love conquers all.
> > 
> > 
> Potioncat:
> DD has a way of only telling a part of the truth. From his standpoint both boys fit the description. I'm not sure if DD really thinks Neville would fit the prophecy or if he just means both boys fit the description.
> 
> But what if LV had chosen Neville? Alice would have died. Neville would have died.  LV would have been just fine. His soul would be a tad more ripped--and after a while (moments or weeks or years) he would begin to wonder if he had chosen wrong. He would have gone after the Potter boy too.

Pippin:
But what if Lily had already died, or was out visiting Bathilda when Voldemort arrived? Then the prophecy would have been fulfilled but the one who could vanquish Voldemort would have died at his hands. 

To me the interplay between  Lily's magic and choice is comparable to mixing potions. Potions need a witch or wizard (according to JKR) but they may also need  non-magical ingredients like lacewing flies. Choice in itself is not magical, and indeed some very significant choices in the books are made by Muggles. But Lily's magic would not have worked without the element of choice.

Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Dec  2 23:55:05 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2010 23:55:05 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <id8haq+orcu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <id9bkp+915k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189848


> Carol responds:
> 
> I completely agree that when Snape goes to DD, he has just found out that LV is targeting children, in particular Harry Potter, and their families. His desperation is evident, as you say, and had he known earlier what LV was doing, he would have gone to DD earlier. (Why LV took so long to decide on a course of action is unclear, but that's JKR for you.)
> 
> But my point was simply that we keep hearing about Voldemort rewarding some especially loyal follower "above all others." Surely, he would have asked Severus to name his reward at the time he performed the service (reporting the partial prophecy)--at a time when Harry was not yet born and probably neither Snape nor Voldemort even knew that she was pregnant). I can't see young Snape going to LV and belatedly asking for a reward a year or even two after the Prophecy, hiding his anxiety for Lily's life through Occlumency. (Had he even mastered Occlumency--and his acting abilities--at that point?) It seems to me more likely (though, as you say, we're speculating) that he asked that she be spared when she was in the same (grave)danger as the Order members but was not being specifically targeted.

Pippin:

First, Snape must have mastered both acting and occlumency at that point, because he'd have needed them to convince Dumbledore  that he hadn't overheard the prophecy and make his escape. We have to contend with the possibility that Dumbledore was only pretending to be deceived, but clearly Voldemort believed that Snape got away with it, and he knows all about Dumbledore's powers of legilimency. 

 I adore the possibility that Snape was specifically seeking to claim the reward of Lily's life when he spied on Dumbledore and brought the prophecy to LV. And so Snape instigated the very tragedy he was trying to prevent... (shiver!)

But I just can't reconcile that interpretation with Snape's desperation on the hilltop. Voldemort's reputation is that he never spares anyone once he's decided to kill them. (Of course like most reputations, this one is inflated, or Snape would have died when he returned in GoF.)  But if Snape had realized that Voldemort meant to kill Lily before, wouldn't he have thought she was in intolerable peril, even if she was "only" going to die as an Order member?

Like it or not, if both Hagrid and JKR think it's credible that Voldemort wanted James and Lily to join him, (and so allowed them to defy him repeatedly), we have to assume that Snape would think it was credible too. After all, Voldemort's assessment of Lily's powers is not consistent. Sure he sneers at her and calls her a Muggle, but OTOH, he accepts immediately and without a doubt that it was her "powerful counter-curse" that kept him from killing Harry. Voldemort is as opportunist in his choice of philosophies as he is in everything else: he espouses fanatical pureblood superiority only when it suits him. 

Young Snape had experience of people making exceptions for Lily, the way Slughorn did, and I'm sure he simply and naively couldn't imagine  that anyone ever meant "Undesirable"   to apply to her.

Pippin





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Dec  2 22:44:50 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 14:44:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <id9054+fio0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <588.16945.qm@web113919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189849


Potioncat:
> DD has a way of only telling a part of the truth. From his
standpoint both boys fit the description. I'm not sure if DD
really thinks Neville would fit the prophecy or if he just
means both boys fit the description.

But what if LV had chosen Neville? Alice would have died.
Neville would have died. LV would have been just fine. His
soul would be a tad more ripped--and after a while (moments
or weeks or years) he would begin to wonder if he had chosen
wrong. He would have gone after the Potter boy too. <snip> <


June:
That doesn't add up because the prophecy stated that it would
be one of two boys and Voldemort would mark the one it would be
himself. Dumbledore did not say that, he only told Harry who the
other boy was (Neville). It is the last or second last chapter
in Goblet of Fire.






From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  3 02:48:54 2010
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 02:48:54 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <4CF69694.9010603@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <id9lqm+24f9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189850

> Shelley:
> Bart, you are twisting that. No one said that Snape was of "little 
> importance", but rather we are exploring the question of why would 
> Voldemort even grant the request in the first place? I see at all where 
> Voldemort says "sure, I'll do this for you, and in return I expect your 
> loyalty. Far from it, Snape was already a Death Eater, and his loyalty 
> was "Expected!" The question was why would he need to "reward" anyone? 
> Wormtail's "reward" was a death trap.

Zara:
In my opinion, Voldemort's gift to Severus would have been likewise. If Voldemort had spared Lily, what would Snape have been willing to do to prevent Voldemort from changing his mind? Why..."Anything". <g>





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Dec  2 14:46:29 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 06:46:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <id778i+6lba@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <802439.45161.qm@web113916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189851




Nikkalmati

I'm sure we have all read the books. Thats why we are here. The point being made is that Sna;e's request is a "necessary" precondition of the ove magic, because it gave Lily a choice. The recurring theme of "choice". Without Snape's request, Lily could have loved Harry more than any mother ever loved her child and she could have cast all the spells she wanted and it would have been of no effect. Nothing unusual would have happened.

June:
First off I don't remember saying no one else had read the books. What I said is I have read the books many times so stop trying to make me look like a jerk here because I have my own opinion, I am entitled to that. Secondly I still disagree with you. Dumbledore said himself it was Lily's love for Harry that protected him (and gave him the scar so her love had some thing to do with the spell backfireing too) The prophecy said that there were two possible boys (Harry and Neville) who would grow to stand up against Voldemort and that Voldemort himself would mark the boy who would grow up to stand up against him (Harry's scar) Dumbledore verified that the other boy in question was Neville. Therefore if Voldemort had chosen Neville it would have been Neville who lost his parents that night and it would have been Neville whose mother had protected him (or even father depending on which parent was close enough) and it would have been Neville who had the scar
 and the protection. So unless Snape was also in love with Neville's mother the protection has nothing to do with Snape, that was just one more piece of the love conquers all theme of the books.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Dec  2 23:05:53 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 15:05:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <id988s+ivt8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <74339.53276.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189852




Pippin:
But what if Lily had already died, or was out visiting Bathilda when Voldemort arrived? Then the prophecy would have been fulfilled but the one who could vanquish Voldemort would have died at his hands.

To me the interplay between Lily's magic and choice is comparable to mixing potions. Potions need a witch or wizard (according to JKR) but they may also need non-magical ingredients like lacewing flies. Choice in itself is not magical, and indeed some very significant choices in the books are made by Muggles. But Lily's magic would not have worked without the element of choice.

June:

Pippin,
It was the Prophecy that said there were two boys not Dumbledore. Dumbledore only told Harry who the other boy (Neville) was. According to the prophecy (the last or second last chapter in The Goblet of Fire) it would be one of two boys and Voldemort himself would be the one to mark the boy to later come up against him.










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Dec  3 13:55:57 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:55:57 -0000
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <74339.53276.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <idastd+21hh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189853

 
> June:
> 
> Pippin,
> It was the Prophecy that said there were two boys not Dumbledore. Dumbledore only told Harry who the other boy (Neville) was. According to the prophecy (the last or second last chapter in The Goblet of Fire) it would be one of two boys and Voldemort himself would be the one to mark the boy to later come up against him.
> 
> 
>Potioncat:
Actually, it was DD who told Harry the prophecy could mean either of two boys--the Potter child or the Longbottom child. The prophecy only says that one approaches. It's DD's interpretation that it could have been either child. 

I've copied and pasted from the Lexicon:
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/trelawney.html#prophecies

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." (OP 37). 


The situation was that there were two boys to choose from. Although that was not part of the spoken prohecy. The situation was also that Snape asked for Lily to be spared and LV agreed which then set in motion the potential for the love magic to kick in. Then the offer was made to Lily to step aside and Lily refused.  

For that matter, the fact that LV heard about the prophecy helped put it into motion. Although we as a group are not in agreement whethe it would have played out anyway if he had not heard it.

I think Pippin is right in her recent post responding to mine speculating what would have happened if LV had chosen Neville. if LV had shown up when Lily wasn't at home there would be no love magic, no rebounded curses and Harry would be legally dead. But I think if LV had chosen Neville--DD would have continued to hide the Potters and when LV came, Lily would be there.

Apologies for any typoes--I'm having trouble seeing the screen today.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Dec  3 14:20:22 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 06:20:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <id9bkp+915k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <412317.86235.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189855



Pippin:
> <snip> Like it or not, if both Hagrid and JKR think it's
credible that Voldemort wanted James and Lily to join him,
(and so allowed them to defy him repeatedly), we have to
> assume that Snape would think it was credible too. <snip>


June:
While I agree with a lot that Pippin says, there is one thing
about Hagrid to take into consideration. Hagrid when he picked
up Harry told him that his parents were Head boy and girl at
Hogwarts. I think it likely that Lily might have been head girl,
however we find out later from Sirius that James was not head boy.
Love Hagrid to pieces but I think he may be inclined to exaggerate,
lol.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Dec  3 16:10:52 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 16:10:52 -0000
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <954361.68402.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <idb4qc+m2fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189856


> June:
> The prophecy stated that Voldemort himself would mark the boy
> who would one day stand against him. In other words it was
> either Harry or Neville and Voldemort himself would go after
> one of them and it would be Voldemort who would create his own
> enemy (this is at the end of Goblet of Fire and said by
> Dumbledore). According to Dumbledore it was either Harry or
> Neville and Voldemort would be the one to decide, therefore if
> he had gone after Neville and not Harry, Neville would have
> been the boy who lived. Therefore I cannot see how Snape's love
> for Lily would have anything to do with it. Snape's love for
> Lily is just part of the theme which is love conquers all.
> 

Pippin:
The prophecy is given in OOP and you are correct that Dumbledore interprets it as referring either to Harry or Neville. But it only says that the one will have the power -- whether the one with the power or the Dark Lord will die at the hand of the other is not predicted.

 As Dumbledore points out in HBP, even without the prophecy, Voldemort must know as all tyrants do that eventually he will make an enemy powerful enough to destroy him. Voldemort helped make Harry into that person by trying to destroy him, but the prophecy does not guarantee that if he had gone after Neville it would have had the same effect on him.

Lily's sacrifice saved Harry, not because the prophecy said it would, or because her love was purer or truer than James's but because she realized that her love was a choice. IOW, JKR asks us to see that only  when we realize that love is a choice  can we use its full power, only then can it defend us from hate. 

Certainly something besides Snape's request of Voldemort could have made the Dark Lord hesitate long enough for Lily to recognize her choice and make it. But it fits with the theme of love and choice that it was Snape's love for Lily which showed in his choice to protect her, and Voldemort's refusal to recognize that love which allowed him to grant the request and so bring about his fall.

Pippin










From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Dec  3 14:44:58 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 06:44:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Prophecy (was Re: Lily being spared)
In-Reply-To: <idastd+21hh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <753513.93243.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189857


>Potioncat:
> Actually, it was DD who told Harry the prophecy could mean
either of two boys--the Potter child or the Longbottom child.
The prophecy only says that one approaches. It's DD's
> interpretation that it could have been either child.


June:
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches.
"Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh
month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal,
but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either
must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while
the other survives. ... The one with the power to vanquish the
Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." That is
exact from the book. Dumbledore said there were two boys born
at this time and it could have been either boy but Voldemort
choose Harry (the half blood) over Neville (the pure blood).

I've copied and pasted from the Lexicon:
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/trelawney.html#prophecies

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches
... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the
seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his
equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And
either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live
while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish
the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." (OP 37).

The situation was that there were two boys to choose from.
Although that was not part of the spoken prohecy. The situation
was also that Snape asked for Lily to be spared and LV agreed
which then set in motion the potential for the love magic to
kick in. Then the offer was made to Lily to step aside and Lily
refused.

For that matter, the fact that LV heard about the prophecy
helped put it into motion. Although we as a group are not in
agreement whethe it would have played out anyway if he had not
heard it.

I think Pippin is right in her recent post responding to mine
speculating what would have happened if LV had chosen Neville.
If LV had shown up when Lily wasn't at home there would be no
love magic, no rebounded curses and Harry would be legally dead.
But I think if LV had chosen Neville--DD would have continued to
hide the Potters and when LV came, Lily would be there.

Apologies for any typos--I'm having trouble seeing the screen
today.










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Fri Dec  3 17:06:28 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 10:06:28 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
 (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <412317.86235.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <412317.86235.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CF92394.6000202@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189858


> Pippin:
>> <snip>  Like it or not, if both Hagrid and JKR think it's
> credible that Voldemort wanted James and Lily to join him,
> (and so allowed them to defy him repeatedly), we have to
>> assume that Snape would think it was credible too.<snip>
>
> June:
> While I agree with a lot that Pippin says, there is one thing
> about Hagrid to take into consideration. Hagrid when he picked
> up Harry told him that his parents were Head boy and girl at
> Hogwarts. I think it likely that Lily might have been head girl,
> however we find out later from Sirius that James was not head boy.
> Love Hagrid to pieces but I think he may be inclined to exaggerate,
> lol.

Shelley:
OR, JKR gets her facts mixed up, like the time of month for Lupin's 
transformations or the placement of rooms or what year certain students 
were supposed to be in. The author has made some minor mistakes, and 
this could be yet another one of them. I don't think she intended to 
have Hagrid exxagerate- rather I think she forgot she said this when 
writing the later books.



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Dec  3 18:27:30 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:27:30 -0000
Subject: The Prophecy (was Re: Lily being spared)
In-Reply-To: <753513.93243.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <idbcqi+pf99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189859

> 
> 
> June:
> The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches.
> "Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh
> month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal,
> but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either
> must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while
> the other survives. ... The one with the power to vanquish the
> Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." That is
> exact from the book. Dumbledore said there were two boys born
> at this time and it could have been either boy but Voldemort
> choose Harry (the half blood) over Neville (the pure blood).
> 
> Potioncat:
So we agree? DD says there are 2 boys who could fit the prophecy, the prophecy doesn't say there are 2 candidates.

I take this to mean that DD feels LV had to choose between 2 boys that it could have been, and  LV chose Harry. I still maintain that if LV had chosen Neville first, he could still have attacked Harry and marked Harry as his equal.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  3 21:43:40 2010
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 21:43:40 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <412317.86235.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <idboac+ngp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189860





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:

> however we find out later from Sirius that James was not head boy.

zanooda:

I don't remember there was something in the books about James *not* being head boy :-). Sirius said in OotP that James was never a prefect, but I've always assumed that he was appointed head boy anyway.




From bart at moosewise.com  Fri Dec  3 22:05:38 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2010 17:05:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <74339.53276.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <74339.53276.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CF969B2.7020008@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189861

June:
> It was the Prophecy that said there were two boys not Dumbledore. Dumbledore only told Harry who the other boy (Neville) was. According to the prophecy (the last or second last chapter in The Goblet of Fire) it would be one of two boys and Voldemort himself would be the one to mark the boy to later come up against him.

     No, the prophecy said NOTHING about two boys. It was interpreted in 
such a way by Dumbledore that it could have referred to two boys. 
Important difference.

     Bart




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Dec  3 17:18:26 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 09:18:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <4CF92394.6000202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <119647.60787.qm@web113909.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189862

Shelley:
> OR, JKR gets her facts mixed up, like the time of month for
Lupin's transformations or the placement of rooms or what year
certain students were supposed to be in. The author has made
some minor mistakes, and this could be yet another one of them.
I don't think she intended to have Hagrid exxagerate- rather I
think she forgot she said this when writing the later books. <


June:
That could be the case but sometimes when people are very
passionate about something (or someone) they can some times
exaggerate (or remember things differently than what had
actually happened). Either way we will likely never know.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Dec  3 17:14:01 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 09:14:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Prophecy, 'mark as his equal' (was Re: Lily being spared)
In-Reply-To: <idb4qc+m2fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <531426.24573.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Pippin:
> The prophecy is given in OOP and you are correct that Dumbledore
interprets it as referring either to Harry or Neville. But it only
says that the one will have the power -- whether the one with the
power or the Dark Lord will die at the hand of the other is not
predicted.

As Dumbledore points out in HBP, even without the prophecy,
Voldemort must know as all tyrants do that eventually he will make
an enemy powerful enough to destroy him. Voldemort helped make
Harry into that person by trying to destroy him, but the prophecy
does not guarantee that if he had gone after Neville it would have
had the same effect on him. <snip> <


June:
You are right it is The Order of the Phoenix, but that is what
happens when you read all the books so many times you can almost
recite them, they start to run in together and you can't remember
which is which lol. There are two things to remember here: 1) The
prophecy did state that Voldemort would mark his equal himself
(Harry's scar). 2) The prophecy would not have come true if Snape
had not heard part of it and reported to Voldemort.? Had Snape not
heard it then all would have gone on as normal and there would not
have been a boy who lived, or later a chosen one. The bottom line
is that it is Voldemort's own fault that it came true and he made
the choice to choose Harry. He had to have thought there would be
something extra special about the Potters' son.










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  4 15:09:12 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 15:09:12 -0000
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <588.16945.qm@web113919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <iddlio+ui3u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189864



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Potioncat:
> > DD has a way of only telling a part of the truth. From his
> standpoint both boys fit the description. I'm not sure if DD
> really thinks Neville would fit the prophecy or if he just
> means both boys fit the description.
> 
> But what if LV had chosen Neville? Alice would have died.
> Neville would have died. LV would have been just fine. His
> soul would be a tad more ripped--and after a while (moments
> or weeks or years) he would begin to wonder if he had chosen
> wrong. He would have gone after the Potter boy too. <snip> <
> 
> 
> June:
> That doesn't add up because the prophecy stated that it would
> be one of two boys and Voldemort would mark the one it would be
> himself. Dumbledore did not say that, he only told Harry who the
> other boy was (Neville). It is the last or second last chapter
> in Goblet of Fire.
>
Carol responds:

The Prophecy did not state that it would be one of two boys. The part that Voldemort heard did not even state that "the one" would be a boy! You seem to be confusing DD's remark that the Prophecy seemed to fit two boys, both "born before the seventh month dies," with the Prophecy itself.

Once Voldemort had narrowed down the possible Prophecy children to Harry and Neville, he chose Harry as the more likely possibility (DD suggests that he did so because Harry, as a Half-Blood, was more like himself. Why he wouldn't have tried to kill both of them just to be safe, I don't know, but, of course, he couldn't kill Neville once he, LV, was vaporized.)

The point all of us are trying to make is that Lily's Love Magic was not simply a matter of her dying for Harry. What made it special (and inapplicable to Neville's mother) was that LV gave Lily the *choice* to step aside. Had she been Alice Longbottom, whom he had no reason not to kill (no DE was in love with her and he had made no promise to spare her), there would have been no Love Magic. He would simply have AK'd her and then AK'd the child. In other words, even though Neville fit the description of the "one with the power" in that he was born at the end of July and had parents who, as Order members, had (apparently) "thrice defied" Voldemort, he could not have been "the one with the power that the Dark Lord knows not" because the Love Magic would not have applied to him. He would simply have died as LV expected Harry to die. There would have been no backfiring AK, no scar, no accidental Horcrux, no story.

Snape's request starts the whole plot of the books. His arc is crucial to the story. And Lily's *choice,* that central motif of the stories, is crucial to the Love Magic. It isn't just that she loved him. Almost all the mothers (and some of the fathers) in the HP books love their children and would die for them. The Muggle mother in DH spreads her arms to protect her children, echoing Lily's gesture, but her effort is futile. Had she been a witch, it would have been equally futile because she had no choice to "stand aside." As LV keeps saying, Lily didn't *have* to die. What he doesn't understand is that her *choice* to die instead of Harry is what protected Harry when LV ignored "kill me *instead*" and tried to kill Harry, too.

Had she stepped aside, Harry would have died. Had LV killed her without giving her a chance to step aside, Harry would have died. It's the choice that makes the difference.

Carol, who would quote the whole Prophecy but knows that June can easily look it up herself




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec  4 11:37:25 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 03:37:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Prophecy (was Re: Lily being spared)
In-Reply-To: <idbcqi+pf99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <417677.89159.qm@web113909.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189865

Potioncat:
> So we agree? DD says there are 2 boys who could fit the prophecy,
the prophecy doesn't say there are 2 candidates.

I take this to mean that DD feels LV had to choose between 2 boys
that it could have been, and LV chose Harry. I still maintain that
if LV had chosen Neville first, he could still have attacked Harry
and marked Harry as his equal. <


June:
I never said it was the prophecy that said it was two boys (and
stop making me type that work because I know I am spelling it
wrong lol). Dumbledore said there were two boys it fit but you
have a point. If he had gone after Neville and killed Neville he
probably would have the same affect on Harry if he had gone after
him too, however if he had gone after Neville first and killed
him don`t you think it would have been likely that he would have
just considered it job done and not gone after Harry at all? But
then again Voldemort being Voldemort maybe just to be save would
have gone after Harry anyway. Here's a thought, do you think
there was a third boy killed before Harry that Dumbledore didn't
mention? LOL










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec  4 11:42:09 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 03:42:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idboac+ngp3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <394860.41482.qm@web113914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189866


> June:
> however we find out later from Sirius that James was not head boy.

zanooda:
> I don't remember there was something in the books about James
*not* being head boy :-). Sirius said in OotP that James was never
a prefect, but I've always assumed that he was appointed head boy
anyway. <

June:
In order to be Head Boy you first have to be a prefect and Sirius
said they would never make him or James a prefect because they
were always getting into trouble.










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec  4 11:49:39 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 03:49:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The prophecy, 2 boys (was Re: Lily being spared)
In-Reply-To: <4CF969B2.7020008@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <659599.46324.qm@web113914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

> June:
> It was the Prophecy that said there were two boys not Dumbledore.
Dumbledore only told Harry who the other boy (Neville) was.
According to the prophecy (the last or second last chapter in The
Goblet of Fire) it would be one of two boys and Voldemort himself
would be the one to mark the boy to later come up against him. <

Bart:
> No, the prophecy said NOTHING about two boys. It was interpreted
in such a way by Dumbledore that it could have referred to two
boys. Important difference. <


June:
Yes you are right. I said that a long time ago before I posted
exactly what the prophecy had said and didn't think I needed to
explain it because I had corrected myself once already but
apparently it needs to be pointed out to everyone that originally
I made an error. Doesn't everyone? The prophecy states
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...
Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh
month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but
he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must
die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the
other survives. ??? The one with the power to vanquish the Dark
Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
There were two boys born at that time Harry and Neville and
Dumbledore said it could have been either but Voldemort choose
Harry as the one he thought would stand up to him and created
his own enemy.?



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Dec  4 19:00:47 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 4 Dec 2010 19:00:47 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/5/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1291489247.167.56586.m6@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189868

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  4 19:12:02 2010
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 19:12:02 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <394860.41482.qm@web113914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ide3q2+g4ku@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189869



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:

> In order to be Head Boy you first have to be a prefect

zanooda:

Yeah, but you know, we found out in HBP that Quidditch captains have equal status with prefects (Ch.6), so I guess James could be appointed head boy anyway, because he was Quidditch captain :-).




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec  4 23:08:27 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 15:08:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <iddlio+ui3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <815194.59178.qm@web113916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189870

Carol responds:

The Prophecy did not state that it would be one of two boys. The part that Voldemort heard did not even state that "the one" would be a boy! You seem to be confusing DD's remark that the Prophecy seemed to fit two boys, both "born before the seventh month dies," with the Prophecy itself.
<SNIP>

The point all of us are trying to make is that Lily's Love Magic was not simply a matter of her dying for Harry. What made it special (and inapplicable to Neville's mother) was that LV gave Lily the *choice* to step aside. Had she been Alice Longbottom, whom he had no reason not to kill (no DE was in love with her and he had made no promise to spare her), there would have been no Love Magic. He would simply have AK'd her and then AK'd the child. <SNIP>
Snape's request starts the whole plot of the books. His arc is crucial to the story. And Lily's *choice,* that central motif of the stories, is crucial to the Love Magic. It isn't just that she loved him. Almost all the mothers (and some of the fathers) in the HP books love their children and would die for them. The Muggle mother in DH spreads her arms to protect her children, echoing Lily's gesture, but her effort is futile. Had she been a witch, it would have been equally futile because she had no choice to "stand aside." As LV keeps saying, Lily didn't *have* to die. What he doesn't understand is that her *choice* to die instead of Harry is what protected Harry when LV ignored "kill me *instead*" and tried to kill Harry, too.

Had she stepped aside, Harry would have died. Had LV killed her without giving her a chance to step aside, Harry would have died. It's the choice that makes the difference. <SNIP>


June:
1) I have already corrected myself at least twice when I said that the prophecy had predicted two and posted what the prophecy had actually said and stated that it was Dumbledore that said there were two boys because there were, Harry and Neville. Also what you said about Dumbledore not thinking Neville would really fit the prophecy, I have to agree with. It is true that as a baby LV would not have known that he would be somewhat retarded in his magic abilities (and you have to admit he did come a long way) but I don't think that he would have been as capable as Harry either and the wizarding world may have been in trouble lol.
2) I am not clueing in lol. I see that what you are saying is that (it just hit me like a brick lol) LV would not have cared less about killing her if it was not for Snape asking him to spare her so it would have been likely that he would have just killed everyone when he came into the house so she really wouldn't have been risking anything by standing in front of Harry because she would have been killed anyway (see I may be slow sometimes but I eventually clue in lol). Now what you said about killing both boys, that may have been his plan in the first place and not so much that he chose Harry. Maybe Harry was closer to him than Neville and if the spell hadn't backfired Neville and his family would have been next.







From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec  4 23:24:06 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 15:24:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <ide3q2+g4ku@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <89891.29293.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189871

> June:
> In order to be Head Boy you first have to be a prefect

zanooda:
> Yeah, but you know, we found out in HBP that Quidditch captains
have equal status with prefects (Ch.6), so I guess James could be
appointed head boy anyway, because he was Quidditch captain :-). <


June:
You have the right idea but it was for a different reason. I did
some research and found out that, that was not a typo and Hagrid
did not exaggerate. It is long so I am giving you the link so you
can read it.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1421444/1/Choosing_the_Head_Boy








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harryfawks at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  5 00:51:46 2010
From: harryfawks at yahoo.co.uk (Nicola)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 00:51:46 -0000
Subject: The prophecy, 2 boys (was Re: Lily being spared)
In-Reply-To: <659599.46324.qm@web113914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <idenn2+7c18@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189872

> > June:
> > It was the Prophecy that said there were two boys not
> Dumbledore. Dumbledore only told Harry who the other boy
> (Neville) was. According to the prophecy <snip> it would be
> one of two boys and Voldemort himself would be the one to
> mark the boy to later come up against him. <
>
> Bart:
> > No, the prophecy said NOTHING about two boys. It was
> interpreted in such a way by Dumbledore that it could have
> referred to two boys. Important difference. <
>
> June:
> Yes you are right. <snip> There were two boys born at that
> time Harry and Neville and Dumbledore said it could have been
> either but Voldemort chose Harry as the one he thought would
> stand up to him and created his own enemy.?


Nicfawks:
Hi. I was reading some comments about this topic and had to
reply as well lol. If I can remember some of the story, didn't
LV have Bellatrix, Barty Crouch Jr and another death eater go
after Neville and his parents, while Voldemort went after Harry
himself? Neville's parents ended up in St Mungo's. So in a way
LV did go after both only using the Death Eaters to do the other
job while he sees to Harry.

Nicfawks




From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Dec  5 05:09:43 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 00:09:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions
 & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <394860.41482.qm@web113914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <394860.41482.qm@web113914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CFB1E97.8000205@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189873

June:
> In order to be Head Boy you first have to be a prefect and Sirius
> said they would never make him or James a prefect because they
> were always getting into trouble.

     Not necessarily. While they can be the leader of the prefects, they 
can also be the equivalent of student body presidents in other countries.

     Bart




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Dec  5 07:43:09 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 07:43:09 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <4CFB1E97.8000205@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <idffqd+s5rj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189874

-- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:

June:
> > In order to be Head Boy you first have to be a prefect and Sirius
> > said they would never make him or James a prefect because they
> > were always getting into trouble.

Bart:  Not necessarily. While they can be the leader of the prefects, they 
> can also be the equivalent of student body presidents in other countries.

Geoff:
Yes, but we're not considering other countries, we're looking at a British
situation and June is correct in that the Head Boy is one of the prefects.

I was a prefect in an English grammar school and that was the norm for 
other schools. We were usually chosen in the Lower Sixth and, in the 
Upper Sixth, an experienced prefect would be chosen to be the Head Boy
(or School Captain in our case).

In the case of my school, pupils were chosen to be prefects by consensus
between the staff and the existing prefects.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Dec  5 14:03:48 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 14:03:48 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idffqd+s5rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idg644+re7d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189875

.> 
> Geoff:
> Yes, but we're not considering other countries, we're looking at a British
> situation and June is correct in that the Head Boy is one of the prefects.
.

Potioncat:
After all these years--are we now considering that the prefect/Head Boy situation is a flint? I've seen many posts offering an explanation for James being promoted to Head Boy--particularly given his reputation, but I don't recall any that suggested it was just a mistake by JKR.

I'm not saying there weren't any, just I don't recall them. :-)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  5 15:20:15 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 15:20:15 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idg644+re7d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idgajf+n9df@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189876

> Potioncat:
> After all these years--are we now considering that the prefect/Head Boy situation is a flint? I've seen many posts offering an explanation for James being promoted to Head Boy--particularly given his reputation, but I don't recall any that suggested it was just a mistake by JKR.
> 
> I'm not saying there weren't any, just I don't recall them. :-)
>
Carol responds:

Okay, we all recall Hagrid saying in Book 1 that James and Lily were Head Boy and Head Girl. We all recall Sirius saying in Book 5 that Remus was "the good boy" and was appointed Prefect. We all also recall him sitting there not doing his job while Sirius and James attacked Severus. Does anyone recall anything in canon stating that at Hogwarts Head Boys and Head Girls are always chosen from the Prefects?

If they are, we have two or three possibilities. One is that Dumbledore (and McGonagall) made an exception (and broke the rules) for James, as they are not above doing for Harry, even though they have no reason to see him as the future father of an as-yet-unheard of Boy Who Lived. Another is that Hagrid, who, after all, was neither a teacher nor a student at the time, recalled the situation incorrectly, his view of James distorted by grief and affection. A third is that James's being a Head Boy is a Flint of sorts because Hagrid's statement in Book 1 slipped JKR's mind as she wrote Book 5. (She apparently doesn't reread the books once they come out, so that's certainly possible--cf. the Hand of Glory inconsistencies.) That seems especially likely if her conception of James changed somewhat (he became less admirable and likable) as a teenager as the plots of the later books became clearer in her mind.

On the other hand, if no one in canon ever states that Head Boys and Girls must be Prefects first, there's no error or inconsistency (except that Hogwarts goes against common English practice in boarding schools).

Carol, who read the article June linked to and enjoyed it but prefers sticking to canon or, if we must, to JKR's interviews





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Dec  5 18:02:40 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Dec 2010 18:02:40 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/5/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1291572160.564.56986.m17@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189877

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
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From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Dec  5 17:32:45 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 09:32:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <89891.29293.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <660896.30519.qm@web113919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189878

> June:
> In order to be Head Boy you first have to be a prefect

zanooda:
> Yeah, but you know, we found out in HBP that Quidditch captains
have equal status with prefects (Ch.6), so I guess James could be
appointed head boy anyway, because he was Quidditch captain :-). <

June:
You have the right idea but it was for a different reason. I did
some research and found out that, that was not a typo and Hagrid
did not exaggerate. It is long so I am giving you the link so you
can read it.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1421444/1/Choosing_the_Head_Boy

June:
To add to this, I thought this was a JKR story but it was actually
someones (a fan) rendition of what he thought happened and it is a
good read and makes lots of sense. I think he is right on with this.







From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Dec  5 17:36:17 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 09:36:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The prophecy, 2 boys (was Re: Lily being spared)
In-Reply-To: <idenn2+7c18@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <876898.5087.qm@web113903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189879


Nicfawks:
> <snip> If I can remember some of the story, didn't LV have
Bellatrix, Barty Crouch Jr and another death eater go after
Neville and his parents, while Voldemort went after Harry
himself? Neville's parents ended up in St Mungo's. So in a
way LV did go after both only using the Death Eaters to do
the other job while he sees to Harry. <


June:
The death eaters went after Neville's parents some time after
Voldemort's fall thinking they knew something about what
happened to Voldemort. In my opinion that has nothing to do
with Voldemort because he did not tell them to go after them
because he was just vapor at the time and the death eaters
knew nothing about the prophecy.










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Dec  6 14:53:59 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 09:53:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions
 & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idffqd+s5rj@eGroups.com>
References: <idffqd+s5rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CFCF907.7080109@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189880

Geoff:
> Yes, but we're not considering other countries, we're looking at a British
> situation and June is correct in that the Head Boy is one of the prefects.
>
> I was a prefect in an English grammar school and that was the norm for
> other schools. We were usually chosen in the Lower Sixth and, in the
> Upper Sixth, an experienced prefect would be chosen to be the Head Boy
> (or School Captain in our case).

Bart:
     The norm, but not universal. Even in your school, the position was 
called "School Captain"; in some schools, there is a Head of School AND 
a School Captain. The Head Boy is the head of the prefects, but also 
serves if a prefect goes out of control; their responsibility is to 
represent the student body as a whole, as opposed to being unpaid staff 
for disciplinary reasons.

     Bart







From intooblivion at hotmail.co.uk  Mon Dec  6 14:07:56 2010
From: intooblivion at hotmail.co.uk (intooblivion@ymail.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:07:56 -0000
Subject: Lily being spared
In-Reply-To: <idastd+21hh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idiqns+3gmm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189881

> >Potioncat:
> Actually, it was DD who told Harry the prophecy could mean either of two boys--the Potter child or the Longbottom child. The prophecy only says that one approaches. It's DD's interpretation that it could have been either child. 

IntoOblivion:

I've always wondered - do we actually know if Voldemort himself saw there as being two choices for the subject of the prophecy or is that just Dumbledore's interpretation? I believe that in interviews JKR has mentioned that Voldemort chose Harry, but as I recall it was never explicitly confirmed in the books. From that source, it seemed to me that there was no reason to believe that Voldemort thought that there was another who could fit the prophecy (or that if he thought there was, that the other child was Neville).

As far as I remember (unfortunately I do not have a copy of the relevant book available) this is the section of the prophecy which Voldemort was aware of:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ..."

The second part is obviously the means of identifying the `one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord', however while the range given for the birth date is fixed, the method for identifying the child (or it's parents anyway) is not.

`Defy' is rather ambiguous; three times during the parent's lives they have thwarted a plan, challenged or refused to join/help Voldemort (according to my dictionary anyway). How are these acts of defiance measured, and by whom? Do these instances have to be the couples together, between them or individually - were there six instances of defiance, three where both the couple were involved or three in which at least one of the couple was involved? Do they have to be events where the only ones involved in the defiance were the couple (individually or together) or could their defiance be part of a group?

It always seemed to me as if this section of the prophecy was there for Voldemort to use so that he could identify the child. After all who other than the man himself can identify those times when he was defied. He could easily consider some events that seem huge to the Order (and may have been a big deal to Death Eaters involved) as below his interest ? thwarting such a plan would not count as defiance against him. Equally there could be events that Dumbledore thought as quashing a meaningless endeavor that was in reality an important part of Voldemort's plans.

I think it would be Voldemort's perception of defiance that mattered ? if he felt himself to be adversely affected by their actions. In this interpretation there's no reason why Dumbledore couldn't be wrong in thinking that Neville would qualify as an option or that there was any choice involved on Voldemort's part.





From lyyved at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  6 21:00:39 2010
From: lyyved at earthlink.net (Lynn Eddy)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 16:00:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Harry Potter Fans Fight World Hunger
Message-ID: <33295844.1291669239976.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189882

Hi, 

I have started a group on FreeRice.com called "Harry Potter Fans Fight Hunger" For those of you who are not familiar with FreeRice, it is a website where you can answer multiple choice questions on a variety of subjects (English vocabulary, Famous paintings & artists, Chemical Symbols, Spanish vocabulary, World Capitals, etc) and for every correct answer you earn 10 grains of rice for hungry people around the world. This is distributed through the United Nations World Food Programme. It's fun, educational and worthwhile!

The UN World Food Programme (WFP) distributes all of the rice that you donate to help fight hunger. It is the United Nations frontline agency in the fight against global hunger and the world's largest humanitarian organization, working closely with many other organizations in over 75 countries.
In addition to providing food, WFP helps hungry people to become self-reliant so that they escape hunger for good. Wherever possible, they purchase food locally to save on transportation costs and to help boost local markets.

If you are interested here is the link to the group.
http://www.freerice.com/content-group/harry-potter-fans-fight-hunger

You will have to register (it's free) and then join the group. To have your totals count toward the groups totals each time, login, go to the group link and then click "play" from there.

Currently we have 16 members who have earned 20,200 grains of rice since I started the group on Oct 18. This is without any advertising, so I am hoping for a big jump now. I think it is possible to have 250,000 grains donated by the end of the year, all from Harry Potter fans!

I apologize if you get multiple copies of this from multiple Harry Potter groups. And I also apologize if this breaks the rules for any of the groups. I promise it is a one-time mention and it is for charity, so I hope the breech of protocol will be forgiven.

Lynn




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Dec  6 23:49:50 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 23:49:50 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <4CFCF907.7080109@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <idjsqu+mp92@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189883

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> > Yes, but we're not considering other countries, we're looking at a British
> > situation and June is correct in that the Head Boy is one of the prefects.
> >
> > I was a prefect in an English grammar school and that was the norm for
> > other schools. We were usually chosen in the Lower Sixth and, in the
> > Upper Sixth, an experienced prefect would be chosen to be the Head Boy
> > (or School Captain in our case).
 
Bart:
>      The norm, but not universal. Even in your school, the position was 
> called "School Captain"; in some schools, there is a Head of School AND 
> a School Captain. The Head Boy is the head of the prefects, but also 
> serves if a prefect goes out of control; their responsibility is to 
> represent the student body as a whole, as opposed to being unpaid staff 
> for disciplinary reasons.

Geoff:
I haven't come across that situation in any English schools in my experience.
I find it difficult to believe that there would be a Sixth Former called Head 
of School. It would be usurping the title of the Headmaster.

Can you cite an instance of an English school where this occurred to your 
knowledge?




From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Dec  7 02:01:13 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 21:01:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions
 & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idjsqu+mp92@eGroups.com>
References: <idjsqu+mp92@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CFD9569.2000507@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189884

Geoff:
> I haven't come across that situation in any English schools in my experience.
> I find it difficult to believe that there would be a Sixth Former called Head
> of School. It would be usurping the title of the Headmaster.
>
> Can you cite an instance of an English school where this occurred to your
> knowledge?

Bart:
     Just looking through the Internet (my knowledge is more in 
Commonwealth schools), I quickly found a reference:

http://sixthformstjames.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/head-boy-visits-wellington-college/

     Don't know if they are 6th formers or not, but I never said that 
they were.

     Bart




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Dec  7 14:32:43 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 14:32:43 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <4CFD9569.2000507@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <idlgib+kpr1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189885

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> > Can you cite an instance of an English school where this occurred to your
> > knowledge?
> 
> Bart:
>  Just looking through the Internet (my knowledge is more in 
> Commonwealth schools), I quickly found a reference:
> 
> http://sixthformstjames.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/head-boy-visits-wellington-college/

Geoff:
Looking at that link, I sense that many of those there are from the public 
sector and not the state sector. I was rather concerned about the title when 
it was capitalised. I think "head of school" rather then "Head of School" might
make the thing clearer. I presume that state school representatives might be 
a new breed from the new Academies. Just for friends outside the UK, the 
concept of the Academy school came from the Labour government and is a 
state school which is independent of the Local Education Authority (LEA) and 
is directly funded by central government.

Actually, we've drifted OT. I stand by my observation that James would have 
had to be a prefect to be Head Boy. We are looking at the situation when he 
was at Hogwarts and he would have been in the Upper Sixth in 1977/78 
when that set up would have been almost universal.











From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Dec  7 16:39:45 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:39:45 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idlgib+kpr1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idlo0h+usjs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189887


Geoff
snip 
> Actually, we've drifted OT. I stand by my observation that James would have 
> had to be a prefect to be Head Boy. We are looking at the situation when he 
> was at Hogwarts and he would have been in the Upper Sixth in 1977/78 
> when that set up would have been almost universal.


Potioncat:

I cannot argue with that! 

However, JKR did not go to a boarding school and may not have known that James had to be a prefect in order to become Head Boy, or as someone already offered, JKR forgot she ever wrote that he was Head Boy. 

Most of us thought it was odd that Head Boy James hadn't been a prefect, but we thought there was a reason. Many of us have discussed James' unorthodox advancement ?especially given his reputation as a trouble maker and the events we saw through Snape's memory and Lily's comments. Some of us thought James had matured so much that DD thought he was up to the responsibility of Head Boy and the best candidate. Others thought it was a reward for his past actions. Some thought it was an example of DD's favoritism toward Gryffindor. Almost everyone thought it fueled the fire of the Snape/Potter feud.

Here's my question. Given Geoff's information, do you now consider Head Boy itself to be a flint and no longer relevant to the story?that is, James was not a Head Boy? Or do you consider it canon anyway, and James was a Head Boy. Does this change your perception of events?





From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Dec  7 18:08:34 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 11:08:34 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions
 & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idlo0h+usjs@eGroups.com>
References: <idlo0h+usjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CFE7822.6080302@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189888


> Potioncat:
>
> I cannot argue with that!
>
> However, JKR did not go to a boarding school and may not have known that James had to be a prefect in order to become Head Boy, or as someone already offered, JKR forgot she ever wrote that he was Head Boy.
>
> Most of us thought it was odd that Head Boy James hadn't been a prefect, but we thought there was a reason. Many of us have discussed James' unorthodox advancement especially given his reputation as a trouble maker and the events we saw through Snape's memory and Lily's comments. Some of us thought James had matured so much that DD thought he was up to the responsibility of Head Boy and the best candidate. Others thought it was a reward for his past actions. Some thought it was an example of DD's favoritism toward Gryffindor. Almost everyone thought it fueled the fire of the Snape/Potter feud.
>
> Here's my question. Given Geoff's information, do you now consider Head Boy itself to be a flint and no longer relevant to the storythat is, James was not a Head Boy? Or do you consider it canon anyway, and James was a Head Boy. Does this change your perception of events?

Shelley:
I just assumed it was a mistake. James was too much of a fun lover, like 
the twins- didn't mean he wasn't responsible in his own way, because he 
was. I never saw him as the type to even want to be head boy- that's a 
"Percy" type who cares what people think of them, loves order and rules 
and all that jazz. I never saw James as a head boy type, and actually 
the story makes much more sense for me if he isn't. Heads of teams have 
too much on their minds anyway, and it seems to be too much to have them 
studying for their own exams and running a school as head boy and being 
the Captain of a Team....as much fun as James wants to have, he needs 
time for himself and not being head boy means someone isn't asking him 
to fix other's messes for them all the time, as would be required for 
the position. Not being head boy means he has time to be in animagus 
form or visiting town when he shouldn't be, and so forth. I don't know 
about the schools you all went to, but the Team Captains weren't 
necessarily the "cleanest nose" kids, if you know what I mean. A little 
healthy mischief when it comes to inspiring your school (in this case, 
House) against rivals often adds to the fun, even if it means bordering 
on, or outright breaking rules. (I can think of schools stealing other's 
mascots, sneaking on the other school's grounds to add some "creative 
decorations", etc!) James's House Pride would be at it's finest if he 
didn't have to worry about all those expectations that a House Boy would 
have demanded of him. It makes the most sense if he's NOT head boy after 
all.



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Dec  7 22:21:50 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 22:21:50 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idlo0h+usjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idmc1u+vqa8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189889



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

Potioncat:  
> However, JKR did not go to a boarding school and may not have known that James had to be a prefect in order to become Head Boy, or as someone already offered, JKR forgot she ever wrote that he was Head Boy. 

Geoff:
I wrote in message 189874:
"I was a prefect in an English grammar school and that was the norm for
other schools. We were usually chosen in the Lower Sixth and, in the
Upper Sixth, an experienced prefect would be chosen to be the Head Boy
(or School Captain in our case)."

That was a state boys' day school - not a boarding school. What I described 
as the norm applied to both types of school.
 
Potioncat:
> Here's my question. Given Geoff's information, do you now consider Head Boy itself to be a flint and no longer relevant to the story?that is, James was not a Head Boy? Or do you consider it canon anyway, and James was a Head Boy. Does this change your perception of events?

Geoff:
For me, no. I consider that James was both.

Shelley (in post 189888):
I just assumed it was a mistake. James was too much of a fun lover, like
the twins- didn't mean he wasn't responsible in his own way, because he
was. I never saw him as the type to even want to be head boy- that's a
"Percy" type who cares what people think of them, loves order and rules
and all that jazz. 

Geoff:
Not necessarily true in my opinion. 

One of my favourite books is "To serve them all my days" by R.F. 
Delderfield. For me, it is a great book because it is set on Exmoor, an 
area I have loved for many years and where I now live and it is about
the life of a teacher, one with whom I can so often identify.

In one incident, David, the teacher, has to deal with a guy in the Sixth 
Form who is something of a James - boisterous, devil-may-care, 
popular and not unintelligent. When he runs the risk of getting expelled,
David nominates him to be a prefect in his house. In spite of uncertainty
on the part of the Headmaster, the pupil goes on to become an
excellent prefect, and in later years when David has become the 
Headmaster, he returns as a teacher and thanks David for the trust he 
had placed in him from which he developed a great sense of responsibility.

We know that within about two years of leaving Hogwarts, James had
the responsibility of parenthood, was involved in the battle against
Voldemort and just over three years after leaving, was dead trying to 
protect his family.

Hence, somewhere between his disastrous confrontation with Snape and 
these events, the thoughtlessness and stupidity which he was exhibiting 
was replaced by a sense of responsibility - and dare one say adulthood? 
Perhaps the growing attraction between him and Lily was one of the 
catalysts to this sea change.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Tue Dec  7 17:10:06 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:10:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idlo0h+usjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <242442.44943.qm@web113909.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189890

Potioncat:
> <snip> Most of us thought it was odd that Head Boy James
hadn't been a prefect, but we thought there was a reason. Many
of us have discussed James' unorthodox advancement ?especially
given his reputation as a trouble maker and the events we saw
through Snape's memory and Lily's comments. Some of us thought
James had matured so much that DD thought he was up to the
responsibility of Head Boy and the best candidate. Others
thought it was a reward for his past actions. Some thought it
was an example of DD's favoritism toward Gryffindor. Almost
everyone thought it fueled the fire of the Snape/Potter feud.

Here's my question. Given Geoff's information, do you now
consider Head Boy itself to be a flint and no longer relevant
to the story?that is, James was not a Head Boy? Or do you
consider it canon anyway, and James was a Head Boy. Does this
change your perception of events? <


June:
I really don't think that considering the fact that James and
Lily were head boy was only mentioned once that it is really
relevant to the story but just an interesting subject of
discussion. Personally I think the story I had submitted earlier
was a good example of what could have happened to cause
Dumbledore to appoint James to the position and believe that
rather than it being an error on the part of JKR that we should
look at it as an exception to the rule. But as for it being
important, no, it was just Hagrid explaining Harry's parents to
him.






From shaun.hately at bigpond.com  Tue Dec  7 23:14:29 2010
From: shaun.hately at bigpond.com (Shaun Hately)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:14:29 +1100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions
 & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idlo0h+usjs@eGroups.com>
References: <idlo0h+usjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CFEBFD5.6050708@bigpond.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189891

On 8/12/2010 3:39 AM, willsonteam wrote:
>
> However, JKR did not go to a boarding school and may not have known that
> James had to be a prefect in order to become Head Boy, or as someone
> already offered, JKR forgot she ever wrote that he was Head Boy.

JKR did not have to go to a boarding school to understand how these 
systems worked - they are quite common in day schools in Britain as 
well, not confined to boarding schools.

> Here's my question. Given Geoff's information, do you now consider Head
> Boy itself to be a flint and no longer relevant to the storythat is,
> James was not a Head Boy? Or do you consider it canon anyway, and James
> was a Head Boy. Does this change your perception of events?

I don't consider it a flint.

With all respect to Geoff, he knows what he is talking about - but so do 
I. I attended a school heavily based on the traditional British model 
(even if it was in Australia) and I was a Prefect. I also have 
considerable study of the history of such schools and their practices, 
and have even spent a fair amount of time trying to compare the 
practices at Hogwarts to the traditional practices of the schools it 
seems to be partly based on.

http://www.fictionalley.org/authors/shaun_hately/HSOWAWATBPS01.html

Now, a little dated - one day I will update it to incorporate details 
from the later novels. I think I know what I am talking about to.

It is true that in *most* schools based on this model, the Head Boy and 
Head Girl (where applicable) would be prefects. But it's also true that 
for almost every general rule as to how these schools work, there are 
occasional exceptions. Some schools do things a little differently from 
the norm. I see no real reason to assume that there is any rule at 
Hogwarts that says the Head Boy and Head Girl *must* have been prefects 
unless JKR tells us so.

Hogwarts model is already somewhat atypical - in most schools, prefects 
are appointed only from the final year students (although, as with other 
things, there are exceptions). This means, in general, that the Head Boy 
(or whatever title is used - I'm more used to Captain of the School, 
myself) is appointed at about the same time as the Prefects. Sometimes 
they are explicitly considered to be a Prefect as well, sometimes that's 
more an assumption than anything else. At Hogwarts, they are appointing 
Prefects from the last three years - and that's unusual.

The Head Boy and Head Girl are, presumably appointed by the Headmaster - 
and we don't know the criteria. Maybe there is a rule that says they 
must have been a Prefect - but we don't know that. Maybe the rule simply 
says the most outstanding students should be chosen - something that may 
have changed in the two years since the Fifth Year Prefects were 
appointed. We do have indications James changed in that time - I think 
indications he changed quite dramatically.

There's also the potential factor that what was wanted in a Head Boy or 
Head Girl may have changed somewhat during James and the others time at 
Hogwarts. We don't have exact dates on when and what Voldemort was doing 
- what we do seem to have is indication that during the 1970s he became 
progressively more powerful and progressively more feared - when 
Prefects were appointed in 1975, they may have been looking for good 
students who'd make good role models. When the Head Boy and Head Girl 
were appointed in 1977, they might have been looking for students who 
were able to help defend their fellows from actual danger. This is just 
speculation, but we're talking about a time of change in the Wizarding 
World where things were getting progressively more dangerous and darker.

Add into all of this, the additional comment we have on status from 
Hermione in Half Blood Prince.

""That gives you equal status with prefects!" cried Hermione happily.
"You can use our special bathroom now and everything!""

Hermione to me, seems to understand how the school works. I also think 
she understands and takes seriously what being a prefect means. When she 
describes the Quidditch Captain as being of equal status to a Prefect, 
and expressly says he as has "everything" a Prefect has, I think that's 
pretty telling.

To further back this up, I'd like to share two other quotes - one from 
Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone:

"I'm the sixth in our family to go to Hogwarts. You could say I've got a 
lot to live up to. Bill and Charlie have already left - Bill was head 
boy and Charlie was captain of Quidditch. Now Percy's a prefect."

Not - Charlie is not described as a Prefect, but as Captain of Quidditch.

Now - from Order of the Phoenix:

"'I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A 
prefect! That's everyone in the family!'"

Mrs Weasley's quote - now admittedly, I think this would have more 
evidentiary value if she hadn't apparently forgotten about Fred and 
George. But I also that Fred and George don't raise Charlie as a further 
objection to her statement. I think there's real reason to suppose the 
Quidditch Captain is a prefect - so even if only prefects can be made 
Head Boy or Head Girl, James could come up through that path.



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Dec  8 00:01:57 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 00:01:57 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idlo0h+usjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idmhtl+gqn8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189892

 
> Geoff
> snip 
> > Actually, we've drifted OT. I stand by my observation that James would have 
> > had to be a prefect to be Head Boy. We are looking at the situation when he 
> > was at Hogwarts and he would have been in the Upper Sixth in 1977/78 
> > when that set up would have been almost universal.
> 
<snip>
Potioncat:
> Here's my question. Given Geoff's information, do you now consider Head Boy itself to be a flint and no longer relevant to the story?that is, James was not a Head Boy? Or do you consider it canon anyway, and James was a Head Boy. Does this change your perception of events?
>

Pippin:
I don't think it's Flint. Hagrid's statement invites both reader and Harry  to imagine that James was always a model student, despite what we learn about him in PoA.  This is crucial to the disillusionment that takes place when Harry views Snape's Worst Memory. For the alert reader it foreshadows the revelations later in OOP: IMO, we're meant to be asking how James could have gotten to Head Boy if no one would even consider him prefect material? For Harry, of course, by the time the question could arise it's overshadowed by a bigger one: how did James ever get to be Lily's husband?

You can see that if Harry had thought to question Sirius and Lupin about being Head Boy  at the first opportunity,  it would spoil JKR's carefully orchestrated plot development. Instead we get an answer by implication later on: James changed his ways. 

We don't have to speculate to know that Dumbledore believes that people who have made bad choices in the past can learn to make better ones. We know that he's willing to break with precedent. We know that he appoints the prefects, and presumably the Head Boy as well. We know the Head has the authority to make exceptions to the rules and that Dumbledore will do so when he thinks it is wise. In sum, it doesn't matter what the rules are (except to set up the reader's expectations) because Dumbledore regards the rules as a guide to making intelligent choices, not a substitute.

 Ordinarily perhaps, that would not be enough to explain what Dumbledore did. I'm sure it created some bad feeling to promote James over whoever expected to be named Head Boy, just as it did when Gryffindor won the House Cup in Harry's  first year. But there was going to be bad feeling anyway. No winner would have been popular with all the Houses.

Now consider the circumstances in James's 7th year. The wizarding world is at war with Voldemort, and itself deeply divided about how to oppose him. Those tensions, we know, had seeped into the school.  Anyone trying to keep order would have to face not only Death Eaters and sympathizers, but Crouchists ready to do whatever to confront them and loose cannons like Sirius and Snape, as dangerous to their friends as they are to their enemies.  (If Bella or Narcissa had come to Snape's defense as tactlessly as Lily did, he might have mortally insulted one of them instead, and the whole course of the war might have been different.)

As we saw, this was not  a good time to have an ineffective person as the Gryffindor prefect. Dumbledore could not always be at the school to defend it -- we've seen what Hogwarts would have become had he let the Ministry  fall into Voldemort's hands. James had proven leadership ability, and he'd shown that he could act on his own initiative and protect a student he loathed, even at the possible expense of getting his best friend expelled. 

So, provided Lupin was willing to step down, and I'm sure he was, why not appoint James in his place? And why not make James Head Boy? Those who had misgivings about giving James that much responsibility might be asked to consider that it was better to have James as Head Boy, responsible to the teachers and desperate to keep his access to Lily, than James as a prefect, responsible to a Head Boy from a rival house. 

Pippin




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Dec  8 00:50:20 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 17:50:20 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions
 & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idmc1u+vqa8@eGroups.com>
References: <idmc1u+vqa8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CFED64C.8030604@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189893


> Potioncat:
>> Here's my question. Given Geoff's information, do you now consider Head Boy itself to be a flint and no longer relevant to the storythat is, James was not a Head Boy? Or do you consider it canon anyway, and James was a Head Boy. Does this change your perception of events?
> Geoff:
> For me, no. I consider that James was both.
>
> Shelley (in post 189888):
> I just assumed it was a mistake. James was too much of a fun lover, like
> the twins- didn't mean he wasn't responsible in his own way, because he
> was. I never saw him as the type to even want to be head boy- that's a
> "Percy" type who cares what people think of them, loves order and rules
> and all that jazz.
>
> Geoff:
> Not necessarily true in my opinion.
>
> One of my favourite books is "To serve them all my days" by R.F.
> Delderfield. For me, it is a great book because it is set on Exmoor, an
> area I have loved for many years and where I now live and it is about
> the life of a teacher, one with whom I can so often identify.
>
> In one incident, David, the teacher, has to deal with a guy in the Sixth
> Form who is something of a James - boisterous, devil-may-care,
> popular and not unintelligent. When he runs the risk of getting expelled,
> David nominates him to be a prefect in his house. In spite of uncertainty
> on the part of the Headmaster, the pupil goes on to become an
> excellent prefect, and in later years when David has become the
> Headmaster, he returns as a teacher and thanks David for the trust he
> had placed in him from which he developed a great sense of responsibility.
>
> We know that within about two years of leaving Hogwarts, James had
> the responsibility of parenthood, was involved in the battle against
> Voldemort and just over three years after leaving, was dead trying to
> protect his family.
>
> Hence, somewhere between his disastrous confrontation with Snape and
> these events, the thoughtlessness and stupidity which he was exhibiting
> was replaced by a sense of responsibility - and dare one say adulthood?
> Perhaps the growing attraction between him and Lily was one of the
> catalysts to this sea change.
Shelley:
See for me, that maturity he showed with Lily and protection of his 
family is a continuation of that sports theme- fiercely loyal to his 
team (and house) in school, fiercely loyal to his girlfriend, mate and 
newborn son. It's not replaced by a sense of responsibility as much as 
his responsibility has been growing all along, right along with his need 
for challenge and thrill. People who love personal challenges don't stop 
being competitive. Lily and James are fighting Voldemort- the prophesy 
says that Harry was born to ones who had THRICE defied him- this I see 
as James unchanging personality to seek thrills while raising a family. 
I can see him cheering and hooping in joy and he says "yes, we defied 
Voldemort yet again, yet again we got to the best of him" with each 
successive victory as Order of the Phoenix members. I think he's paving 
a way for future generations in his mind. I think it was a line his 
friends were constantly talking to him about- being responsible while 
meeting his need for the next victory. He knew the next challenge lay 
ahead- the prophesy and his family targeted- and they had a plan to win, 
and I'm sure he thought it was a sports tactic to change Secret Keepers 
at the last second to keep Voldemort constantly guessing the strategy 
James would take this time, only that change backfired horribly as James 
didn't realize that Wormtail had already switched loyalties (thus 
betraying "their team"). I don't see James as changing all that much, 
from stupid and reckless to suddenly being a model Head Boy who toed the 
line; rather I see a James who never stopped being competitive and 
vibrant in life, who possibly felt trapped into hiding and wouldn't have 
stayed there for long before he went out and did something bold to get 
at Voldemort once again.

I think he always walked that fine line of being reckless and 
responsible, of being on the edge, driven by competitiveness and the 
need to win. Maybe even getting Lily was originally that motive 
(ultimate victory over Snape and the other "competititors"), although I 
do believe that he loved her and his new son with every fiber of his 
being. I think Lily saw in him that balance of competitiveness and 
responsibility, one that drove him to win in some important areas of 
life that mattered to her (it won her, it won against Voldemort 3 times, 
and they were on the same side in that fight as Order of the Phoenix 
members). James not being head boy doesn't change at all my 
understanding of the events as they are described in canon- James is the 
popular one, he's the "defacto" leader of Griffandor as the Quidditch 
Captain in a winning season- no Head Boy could have had as much pull 
over his House or more influence as he had. (Notice when he teased 
Snape, in Snape's memory, that no one stepped in to challenge him on 
it.) He didn't need to be head boy at all, nor did he ever "need to 
change to become responsible". Hagrid's goof, if it was that, simply 
could have been the mistake that the "real head boy" was someone that 
people barely remembered, he left that little of a mark in people's 
minds. But James, James was a hero of Griffandor, and so Hagrid maybe 
makes the mistake of thinking James had to have been head boy with as 
much pull as he had on his fellow classmates and on that of the younger 
students. I know I'm taking a few liberties in imagining James, but I 
don't think they are inconsistent at all with canon. James was a 
Quidditch Captain who lead his team to victory, James was an order of 
the Phoenix member who lead the Order to victory in key battles against 
Voldemort. I see no need for James to change one bit. Sticking with the 
sports theme- what do people remember of a star player, or someone who's 
been idolized the way James was after his death? Do they remember a foul 
committed in a game? Those faults are overlooked often before the end of 
the game, and certainly never remembered after the end of a winning 
season. When people talk about a star player years later, they remember 
only the good times, and so I don't doubt at all that people forgot what 
an insensitive jerk James could be at times, especially because in this 
case James was dead and it would have been bad form to dishonor his 
memory. They had a good reason to forget his faults.

I reject the need for a catalyst, a sea of change or even a turning 
point in his life (I don't see evidence in canon for it, frankly). He's 
enemies with Snape, and because Snape serves Voldemort, he's still 
enemies with Snape after they leave school. (I think Sirius Black's 
adult attitude of Snape is a fair estimation of how James would have 
continued to mistrust Snape.) James is responsible and thrill seeking as 
a student and Captain, and he continues that as a husband, father and 
Order of the Phoenix member. He was a leader before he left Hogwarts, 
and he's a leader afterward. I see him as consistent in character and 
actions, unchanging in basic nature but maturing as all the students did 
with time. I think people found it easy to overlook James's faults when 
he took them to victory. As long as James was giving them victories over 
the Dark Lord, I think people had reason to still hold him up as a hero, 
whether he was still an arrogant toerag or not. He could be a great hero 
and still have glaring faults- yes, both can co-exist in the same 
person. I think if you look at many modern athletes, you will find 
examples of that in real life.



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  8 17:17:03 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:17:03 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <4CFEBFD5.6050708@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <idoeif+dhkv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189894

Shaun wrote:
> <snip> To further back this up, I'd like to share two other quotes - one from Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone:
> 
> "I'm the sixth in our family to go to Hogwarts. You could say I've got a lot to live up to. Bill and Charlie have already left - Bill was head boy and Charlie was captain of Quidditch. Now Percy's a prefect."
> 
> Not[e] - Charlie is not described as a Prefect, but as Captain of Quidditch.
> 
> Now - from Order of the Phoenix:
> 
> "'I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A 
> prefect! That's everyone in the family!'"
> 
> Mrs Weasley's quote - now admittedly, I think this would have more evidentiary value if she hadn't apparently forgotten about Fred and  George. But I also that Fred and George don't raise Charlie as a further objection to her statement. I think there's real reason to suppose the Quidditch Captain is a prefect - so even if only prefects can be made Head Boy or Head Girl, James could come up through that path.

Carol responds:

Equal status with prefects is not the same as *being* a prefect. Note that when Harry is Quidditch captain, he has no prefect duties (and no authority to give detentions), in contrast to Ron and Hermione.

I think your two (well-selected) quotations are yet more evidence that what JKR remembered from the earlier books and what she actually wrote are not always consistent. (And it's just not possible to reconcile "the great Charlie Weasley's" reputation as Seeker with Gryffindor's dismal performance in the years he was on the team, captain or not.)

Carol, who thinks that we may need, in some instances, to regard the books as separate entities rather than expecting the series as a whole to be consistent





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  8 17:53:03 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:53:03 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <4CFED64C.8030604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <idoglv+g9uo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189895

Shelley wrote:
> See for me, that maturity he showed with Lily and protection of his family is a continuation of that sports theme- fiercely loyal to his team (and house) in school, fiercely loyal to his girlfriend, mate and newborn son. It's not replaced by a sense of responsibility as much as his responsibility has been growing all along, right along with his need for challenge and thrill. People who love personal challenges don't stop  being competitive. <snip> He knew the next challenge lay ahead- the prophesy and his family targeted- and they had a plan to win, and I'm sure he thought it was a sports tactic to change Secret Keepers at the last second to keep Voldemort constantly guessing the strategy James would take this time, only that change backfired horribly as James didn't realize that Wormtail had already switched loyalties (thus betraying "their team"). I don't see James as changing all that much, from stupid and reckless to suddenly being a model Head Boy who toed the line; rather I see a James who never stopped being competitive and vibrant in life, who possibly felt trapped into hiding and wouldn't have stayed there for long before he went out and did something bold to get at Voldemort once again.
<snip>
James not being head boy doesn't change at all my understanding of the events as they are described in canon- James is the popular one, he's the "defacto" leader of Griffandor as the Quidditch Captain in a winning season- no Head Boy could have had as much pull over his House or more influence as he had. (Notice when he teased Snape, in Snape's memory, that no one stepped in to challenge him on it.) He didn't need to be head boy at all, nor did he ever "need to change to become responsible". Hagrid's goof, if it was that, simply could have been the mistake that the "real head boy" was someone that people barely remembered, he left that little of a mark in people's minds. But James, James was a hero of Griffandor, and so Hagrid maybe makes the mistake of thinking James had to have been head boy with as much pull as he had on his fellow classmates and on that of the younger 
> students. <snip> I see no need for James to change one bit. Sticking with the sports theme- what do people remember of a star player, or someone who's been idolized the way James was after his death? Do they remember a foul committed in a game? Those faults are overlooked often before the end of the game, and certainly never remembered after the end of a winning season. When people talk about a star player years later, they remember only the good times, and so I don't doubt at all that people forgot what an insensitive jerk James could be at times, especially because in this case James was dead and it would have been bad form to dishonor his memory. <snip>

Carol responds:

As you can tell, I had a hard time snipping this long and interesting post. As most of you know, I don't like James, but I think you're on to something here. I agree that he was not Head Boy (whether the error is Hagrid's or JKR's is irrelevant here--she'll blame it on Hagrid if she concedes the slip). We do know that he was not a Gryffindor Prefect. Remus Lupin got that job (and he was, IMO, as bad at it in his way as James would have been).

Two tiny points--James would not have been Head Boy during the incident when he humiliated Severus Snape because he was only a fifth year. The question is whether he became one later despite his conduct in fifth year (a great deal of which the teachers and DD didn't know about). Also, no Head Boy or Head Girl would have been present during SWM. Only the fifth years, just released from their DADA OWL, would have been present. (It's even possible, though it's not mentioned, that the only witnesses to the incident were Gryffindors, whose territory Severus accidentally wandered into, which would explain why no Prefects besides Lily took action and why no one seemed to object to the bullying.

Second small point: James didn't know the Prophecy or why he, Lily, and Harry had to go into hiding. (DD says later that he and Harry are the only two people who know the entire Prophecy; Snape and LV know part of it.) Had James known the Prophecy, I seriously doubt that he would have blithely tossed his wand on the couch and felt that the family was safe, Secret Keeper or not.

However, I like your idea that he acted as a Quidditch captain, planning strategy to beat the other team by switching Secret Keepers. I agree that he didn't change much (he was always loyal to people he cared about, however small a group that might be, and he was always recklessly courageous).

I also like the idea that his popularity (which must have been greatest among the Gryffindors) had more to do with his being a star Quidditch player and captain of a winning team than anything else. He could probably get away with arrogance and bullying for that reason only, just as celebrities and sports figures get away with behavior that the rest of us wouldn't dream of. (Tiger Woods, anyone?) Within the WW, we need only see how the members of the Wizengamot regarded Ludo Bagman (such a popular sports figure couldn't possibly be an associate of Death Eaters) to see how that sort of idolatry might apply to James--even to some degree among Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws if his team had recently beaten Slytherin.

At any rate, I think that Shelley is right about James's not changing. He stopped hexing everyone except Severus (who "gave as good as he got"), but only because he wanted Lily to go out with him, not because he had become a different, more responsible person. I doubt that he ever regretted his conduct in fifth year any more than Sirius did. And the little story of James and Sirius as Order members absorbed in the game of chasing Death Eaters (and oblivious to the humanity of the Muggle policemen) shows that he's still the same James, father or not.

Carol, very glad that Harry was not a second James except in looks! 





From wendydhudson at gmail.com  Wed Dec  8 21:16:06 2010
From: wendydhudson at gmail.com (WendyH)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 21:16:06 -0000
Subject: Why a secret keeper?
Message-ID: <idosim+a0s9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189896

Hi -

I've been reading the posts here for quite a while; although, I never
participate, I enjoy reading everyone's opinion.

Forgive me if this has already been discussed.  Ever since I read
about secret keepers I wondered why have them at all?  Why do you
have to tell your secret to someone?  Why couldn't Lily and James
kept the secret to themselves?  It seems safer.  What is it about
Wizards that requires them to have a secret keeper?

Wendy



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Dec  9 15:28:50 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 15:28:50 -0000
Subject: Why a secret keeper?
In-Reply-To: <idosim+a0s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idqsji+cogk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189897

Wendy:
> Forgive me if this has already been discussed.  Ever since I read
> about secret keepers I wondered why have them at all?  Why do you
> have to tell your secret to someone?  Why couldn't Lily and James
> kept the secret to themselves?  It seems safer.  What is it about
> Wizards that requires them to have a secret keeper?
> 
Pippin:
Hi, Wendy and  thanks for de-lurking! 

JKR explained in an interview that if James or Lily had been the secret keeper, Voldemort could have   tortured or tricked or enchanted that one  into betraying the others. This way, even if Voldemort captured James or Lily, the other Potters would remain safe. 

So I guess the answer to your question is, wizards understand that even strong-willed people are vulnerable to Voldemort. 

Pippin








From andy at mugglesguide.com  Thu Dec  9 15:26:48 2010
From: andy at mugglesguide.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 15:26:48 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why a secret keeper?
In-Reply-To: <idosim+a0s9@eGroups.com>
References: <idosim+a0s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <10410322067.20101209152648@ajm.me.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 189898

Hello WendyH,

> Forgive me if this has already been discussed. Ever since I read
> about secret keepers I wondered why have them at all? Why do you 
> have to tell your secret to someone? Why couldn't Lily and James 
> kept the secret to themselves? It seems safer. What is it about 
> Wizards that requires them to have a secret keeper?

I've not really thought about it much before, but I suspect it's because
information can be easily tortured out of people using the Cruciatus
curse, or veritaserum.

If you know who to look for for the secret, it makes the job easier. If
you don't know who is the secret keeper, it makes the job a lot harder
as you have find the secret keeper first, which could be any number of
people.

For example, if you want to know something about James Potter and you
know people keep their own secrets, you just have to search for James
Potter. If the secret keeper could be anyone, you first have to find out
who the friends and family of James Potter are, then find each person in
the hope they are the keeper - all this before they even can try and get
the secret from them.

The secret keeper is bound by the Fidelius charm, which means that if
they tell someone the secret the person they tell cannot then pass on
that information. It may be that the person under the charm may not be
able to pass on the secret by Cruciatus curse or veritaserum.

It may be that the because the secret is "stored" in the person's soul,
it doesn't work as well if the person already knows the secret, which is
in the human brain, which would mean that it wouldn't for the originator
of that secret.

I imagine that James and Lily needed to be found (by friends), which
means that people they trust could go to them (perhaps people brought
them supplies, etc.), rather than James and/or Lily having to come out
of hiding themselves.

It seems to work well, Grimmauld Place was hidden with the Fidelous
Charm for years and Snape was one person who knew of it and where it
was, yet its location remained hidden from Voldemort (it was only found
by accident). The weakest link seems to be that the secret keeper has to
be trustworthy, as we've found out with Wormtail who gave Voldemort
James' and Lily's location willingly.

-- 
 Andy Mills




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  9 15:42:59 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 15:42:59 -0000
Subject: Why a secret keeper?
In-Reply-To: <idosim+a0s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idqte3+74de@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189899



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "WendyH" <wendydhudson at ...> wrote:
>
> Hi -
> 
> I've been reading the posts here for quite a while; although, I never
> participate, I enjoy reading everyone's opinion.
> 
> Forgive me if this has already been discussed.  Ever since I read
> about secret keepers I wondered why have them at all?  Why do you
> have to tell your secret to someone?  Why couldn't Lily and James
> kept the secret to themselves?  It seems safer.  What is it about
> Wizards that requires them to have a secret keeper?
> 
> Wendy
>

The reason is because if a secret is sealed this way, no one else can find it out, and even someone who previously knew the secret would forget it.

So for example when Dumbledore was secret-keeper for the location of the Order's headquarters, then the DEs could not decide to search 12 Grimmauld Place.  Even those DEs who used to know perfectly well where Regulus used to live would no longer be able to find it.

Lily and James hoped to hide their location from the traitor in the Order by sealing that information between themselves and Pettigrew.  And it would have worked if they hadn't chosen the traitor as their Secret-Keeper.

It's really a spell for something that people you wish to *make* a secret, that people might already know or be able to find out.  If there is a secret that only you could know, then yes, you might be better off to just keep it to yourself.

Annemehr





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Dec  9 16:16:13 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 16:16:13 -0000
Subject: James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <4CFED64C.8030604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <idqvcd+59cj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189900


> Shelley:
> See for me, that maturity he showed with Lily and protection of his 
> family is a continuation of that sports theme- fiercely loyal to his 
> team (and house) in school, fiercely loyal to his girlfriend, mate and 
> newborn son. It's not replaced by a sense of responsibility as much as 
> his responsibility has been growing all along, right along with his need 
> for challenge and thrill. People who love personal challenges don't stop 
> being competitive. 


Pippin:
Thanks for the thoughtful post. There can be more than competitiveness to success in team sports. I finally got around to watching "The Blind Side" the other day, and that film, if you haven't seen it, is  about a football player who is unusually protective -- in the 98th percentile.  I hadn't thought about protectiveness as a discrete quality that could be measured before. But it's this quality, IMO, what JKR calls "chivalry", that sets Gryffindors apart. 

Though James's protectiveness isn't as great as  Harry's,  I do think James was above average, as symbolized by Harry's stag patronus. Lily's doe  suggests that  this is  what finally drew her to James -- once he had settled down and stopped hexing people for fun. I don't think he had some moral epiphany about it.   But Lily had made it clear that, unlike Dumbledore, she wasn't going to let herself fall for someone who didn't respect her values.  It's to James's credit that unlike Snape, he realized what she expected of him.  

Of course James never let Snape alone, but by that time Snape himself had changed. He didn't want to be left alone any longer,  he wanted to get revenge. I agree with Carol that James was never sorry for how he'd treated Snape, but I don't think he ever realized the harm he'd done either. He never considered Snape's feelings, or Peter Pettigrew's or the Muggle policemen in JKR's drabble, as worthy of much attention or notice.  That, more than thrill-seeking, was his glaring fault, which he shared with Sirius.  

I don't think the thrill-seeking side of James ever went away, but even more than that he would want to protect the things he loved if they were in danger. His last words were, "I'll hold him off"  not "I'll take him." So if he came to see the Head Boy's job as protecting the school rather than  telling people off for breaking rules, I think it would appeal to him. 

Shelley:
 Hagrid's goof, if it was that, simply 
> could have been the mistake that the "real head boy" was someone that 
> people barely remembered, he left that little of a mark in people's 
> minds. 

Pippin:
If James was a sort of de-facto head boy, it kind of undermines the argument that he wouldn't have been suited for it.

Pippin





From harryfawks at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec  9 16:10:45 2010
From: harryfawks at yahoo.co.uk (Nicola)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 16:10:45 -0000
Subject: Why a secret keeper?
In-Reply-To: <idosim+a0s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idqv25+a19m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189901

Wendy:
> <snip> Ever since I read about secret keepers I wondered why
> have them at all?  Why do you have to tell your secret to
> someone?  Why couldn't Lily and James kept the secret to
> themselves?  It seems safer.  What is it about Wizards that
> requires them to have a secret keeper?


I'm not sure either, but if you had to pick some you trust to
guard a secret that would keep you alive, instead of Peter
Pettigrew or Sirus why not have someone like Albus Dumbledore
be their secret keeper. Voldemort was afraid of Dumbledore and
probably would've stayed as far away from him as he could, even
the death eaters were afraid of Dumbledore.

>From Nicola



From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Thu Dec  9 18:48:43 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 11:48:43 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James as head boy (Re: Voldemort's Intentions
 & Snape's Expectations (Hagrid))
In-Reply-To: <idqvcd+59cj@eGroups.com>
References: <idqvcd+59cj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D01248B.40703@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 189902


> Shelley:
>   Hagrid's goof, if it was that, simply
>> could have been the mistake that the "real head boy" was someone that
>> people barely remembered, he left that little of a mark in people's
>> minds.
> Pippin:
> If James was a sort of de-facto head boy, it kind of undermines the argument that he wouldn't have been suited for it.
>
> Pippin
Shelley:
Not at all! A real head boy would have meetings to attend, corridors to 
patrol, etc. Specific responsibility related to duties. A de-facto head 
boy would be more of the person that everyone looks to for leadership- 
for attitude about Voldemort and how should we proceed from here, the 
person that everyone went to if they had questions or needed advice. 
James, if he wasn't head boy, wouldn't be patrolling a corridor in the 
evening, instead, he would be sitting in the common room setting an 
example there.



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Dec  9 22:23:43 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 22:23:43 -0000
Subject: The impact of SWM (very long)
In-Reply-To: <4CFED64C.8030604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <idrktf+mpgn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189903

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shelley <k12listmomma at ...> wrote:

Shelley:
> I reject the need for a catalyst, a sea of change or even a turning 
> point in his life (I don't see evidence in canon for it, frankly). 

Geoff:
I think we are at a point of agreeing to disagree.

My dictionary defines "sea change" as "a profound or notable 
transformation." It does not, however, indicate that such a change 
has to occur within a specific time. I believe that not one, but three 
people, were to begin undergoing a sea change as a result of the 
incident we are discussing.

Allow me to digress for a moment. Another common phrase, at least 
in UK English, which carries the same connotation is to refer to "a 
Damascus Road experience". Now, if you are not familiar with the Bible, 
this refers to Saul of Tarsus who, as the young Christian church was 
emerging, was one of the leaders of those who wanted it stopped. He 
set out from Jerusalem to go to Damascus with letters authorising him 
to seek out Christians: to arrest and imprison and perhaps execute them
 for their faith. En route, he met with a vision of the risen Christ and, as 
a result, performed a 180 degree turn and became one of the early 
church's greatest apologists. In my early 20s, I became and evangelical 
Christian and after a similar experience of the presence of Christ in a 
completely unexpected encounter which, in my case, led to a great shift 
in my life style -  though not, I may say, turning me into a great 
preacher!

On the other hand, I know many evangelical Christians who have known 
a sea change in their lives but which have only come to the realisation of 
this gradually  and who often cannot put a date or time on when the final 
piece of the jigsaw dropped into place. C.S. Lewis is a very well-known 
Christian in this category. 

My point is, obviously, that when something which is going to cause a 
'profound or notable transformation' occurs, it doesn't follow that there 
will be an instantaneous alteration in the status quo.

Returning to my earlier assertion that three people are caught up, I believe 
that there is enough in the text of  OOTP to support this and there is 
enough subtext and suggestion to flag up further hints for the reader. I 
am going to repeat some material from OOTP and then comment on it


`Harry stared at Wormtail for a moment, then back at James, who was 
now doodling on a bit of scrap parchment. He had drawn a Snitch and 
was now tracing the letters `L.E.'. What did they stand for?'
(OOTP, "Snape's Worst Memory", p.56 UK edition)

`James was still playing with the Snitch, letting it zoom further and further 
away, almost escaping but always grabbed at the last second. Wormtail 
was watching him with his mouth open.  Every time James made a 
particularly difficult catch, Wormtail gasped and applauded. After five 
minutes of this, Harry wondered why James didn't tell Wormtail to get a 
grip on himself but James seemed to be enjoying the attention. Harry 
noticed that his father had a habit of rumpling up his hair as though to 
keep it from getting too tidy and he also kept looking over at the girls 
by the water's edge.

"Put that away will you," said Sirius finally as James made a fine catch 
and Wormtail let out a cheer, "before Wormtail wets himself with 
excitement."

Wormtail turned slightly pink but James grinned.

"If it bothers you," he said, stuffing the Snitch back in his pocket. Harry 
had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James 
would have stopped showing off.'
(ibid. p,568)

`Students all round had turned to watch. Some of them had got to their 
feet and were edging nearer. Some looked apprehensive, others entertained'
(ibid. p.569)

`"Wash out your mouth," said James coldly. "*Scourgify*!"

Pink soap bubbles streamed from Snape's mouth at once; the froth was 
covering his lips, making him gag, choking him ?

"Leave him ALONE!"

James and Sirius looked round. James' free hand immediately jumped to 
his hair.  It was one of the girls from the lake edge
.


Harry's mother.

"All right, Evans?" said James and the tone of his voice was suddenly, 
pleasant. deeper, more mature.

"Leave him alone," Lily repeated



"You think you're funny," she said coldly. "But you're just an arrogant, 
bullying, Potter. Leave him *alone*."

"I will if you go out with me, Evans," said James quickly. "Go on
 go 
out with me"



"I wouldn't go out with you if it was a choice between you and the 
giant squid," said Lily.

"Bad luck. Prongs," said Sirius briskly and turned back to Snape
'
(ibid. p.570)

`James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the 
counter-curse.

"There you go," he said as Snape struggled to his feet. "You're lucky 
Evans was here, Snivellus-"

"I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!"

Lily blinked.  

"Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in future. And I'd wash your 
pants if I were you, *Snivellus*."

"Apologise to Evans!" James roared at Snape, his wand pointed 
threateningly at him.

"I don't want *you* to make him apologise," Lily shouted, rounding 
on James, "you're as bad as he is."

"What?" yelped James. "I'd NEVER call you a ? you-know-what!"

"Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like 
you've just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid 
Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you 
must because you can ? I'm surprised your broomstick can get off 
the ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK."

She turned on her heel and hurried away.

"Evans!" James shouted after her. "Hey, EVANS!"

But she didn't look back.

"What is it with her?" said James, trying and failing to look as though 
this was a throwaway question of no real importance to him.

"Reading between the lines, I'd say she thinks you're a bit conceited, 
mate," said Sirius.

"Right," said James, who looked furious now, "right-"'
(ibid. pp.571/72)

I've quoted some quite large chunks but I think they are germane to 
my argument.

Let's remember that this scenario takes place in June or July 1976 
during the OWL exams. Within this situation, there are a number 
of interactions which hinge on previous events but there are a number 
of things which it is clear, either in what is said or hinted at in the 
reaction of the three folk involved which we can see will lead to the 
changes which we already know did happen from earlier books.

I think from the reaction of students watching and probably that of 
the girls by the lake, that James was far from being the de facto leader 
of Gryfiindor at this time. Lily's reaction sums this up. James, and 
probably Sirius are seen as nothing more than a show-off group of 
hooligans; Lupin and Wormtail probably not so much but James is 
doing more than going round hexing people if you believe Lily's list.   
I feel that she sees James as vicious and nasty. But there is the doodle. 
There is his wish to go out with her, hidden in jocularity. There is his 
fury when Sirius suggests that she considers him conceited. He wants 
Lily to notice him in a positive way and it is obvious that his current 
attempts have backfired quite spectacularly. Comments in the books, 
both previous to OOTP and later appear to suggest that he will take 
positive steps to change his attitude and outlook and so win Lily and 
gain the reputation by the time of his death five years later of being 
a great fighter for good, somethins which has borne Harry up in his 
difficulties and is just being demolished in the Pensieve scene.

The most telling sentence about Lily for me is "Lily blinked." Someone 
for whom she has offered support and for whom she faced up to 
someone she sees as a posturing bully has just metaphorically slapped 
her in the face. She is taken aback but her instant response is a cool 
backing off. I suspect that after her departure, she will be devastated 
at being treated in such a way. She will be angry at James' hamfisted 
attempts to attract her. From this will ultimately come a relationship 
with James for which he will have to change his ways completely if he 
is serious and Lily herself will have to be accepting that he has 
undergone this sea change.

And finally, Snape. Trying not to look as if he is clinging to Lily's coat 
tails because he fears that makes him weak and vulnerable to the 
Marauders, he effectively alienates for ever one of the few people who 
holds him in some regard and creates a life of loneliness and remorse
which will make him the sneering and totally unlikeable Potions teacher.

This event is  a pivotal point in the entire story because it sets up 
events which, apparently a school yard spat will reshape three people's 
lives. Snape's links to Voldemort, Lily's sacrifice and the long-running 
unravelling of the prophecy binding Harry and Voldemort to its final 
denouement 22 years later all stem from this moment on a summer 
day in their Fifth Years.







From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Dec 10 04:51:09 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 04:51:09 -0000
Subject: The Prophecy (was Re: Lily being spared)
In-Reply-To: <417677.89159.qm@web113909.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <idsbjt+mkpf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189905


>
> Potioncat:
> > So we agree? DD says there are 2 boys who could fit the prophecy,
> the prophecy doesn't say there are 2 candidates.
> 
> I take this to mean that DD feels LV had to choose between 2 boys
> that it could have been, and LV chose Harry. I still maintain that
> if LV had chosen Neville first, he could still have attacked Harry
> and marked Harry as his equal. <
> 
> 
> June:
> I never said it was the prophecy that said it was two boys (and
> stop making me type that work because I know I am spelling it
> wrong lol). Dumbledore said there were two boys it fit but you
> have a point. If he had gone after Neville and killed Neville he
> probably would have the same affect on Harry if he had gone after
> him too, however if he had gone after Neville first and killed
> him don`t you think it would have been likely that he would have
> just considered it job done and not gone after Harry at all? But
> then again Voldemort being Voldemort maybe just to be save would
> have gone after Harry anyway. Here's a thought, do you think
> there was a third boy killed before Harry that Dumbledore didn't
> mention? LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Nikkalmati

I always felt there was a reason why Bella et al. went after the Longbottoms.  LV had to know there were two children born at the right time whose parents (singly or together?) had defied him 3 times.  After all, the Longbottoms were Aurors.  He chose to go after the Potters first, but I think he also intended to kill Neville.  That is why Bella and friends went to the Longbottom's.  They knew LV intended to go there.  He had obviously been successful at the Potters (Harry was in hiding), so if something went wrong it must have happened when he went to kill the other child, Neville.  

Did DD offer the Longbottoms any protection?  Had they come out of hiding after LV was destroyed?  Did LV choose Harry just because he knew where to find him, thanks to Wormtail? 

Nikkalmati   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Dec 10 05:00:31 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 05:00:31 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <id9bkp+915k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idsc5f+sakv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189906



 > Pippin:
> 
> First, Snape must have mastered both acting and occlumency at that point, because he'd have needed them to convince Dumbledore  that he hadn't overheard the prophecy and make his escape. We have to contend with the possibility that Dumbledore was only pretending to be deceived, but clearly Voldemort believed that Snape got away with it, and he knows all about Dumbledore's powers of legilimency. 
> 
<big snip>
>> Pippin
>

Nikkalmati

Very interesting question here.  How did Snape get away from the Hog's Head without being Obliviated?  I really can't imagine DD would just let him go with even a portion of the prophecy or that DD would believe Snape's protestation that he didn't hear anyting (if he said that).

Nikkalmati




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Dec 10 15:41:51 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 15:41:51 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <idsc5f+sakv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idthnv+pnsm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189907


> Nikkalmati
> 
> Very interesting question here.  How did Snape get away from the Hog's Head without being Obliviated?  I really can't imagine DD would just let him go with even a portion of the prophecy or that DD would believe Snape's protestation that he didn't hear anyting (if he said that).
> 

Pippin:
Dumbledore, like Voldemort, believes what his powers of legilimency tell him. It's Aberforth's word against Snape's. We know that wizards have less obvious ways of overhearing conversations than pressing their ears to the keyhole, so probably all Aberforth actually saw was Snape in a corridor where he shouldn't have been.


But supposing Dumbledore doubts himself and would like to make sure, there are still problems. 

Is it  possible to obliviate a memory that's being hidden by Occlumency? And even if it is, what then? Even if Snape means no harm, he's not going to stand there and let Dumbledore pull a wand on him. And there are two witnesses. Is Dumbledore going to obliviate them too? 

Pippin










From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Dec 10 16:09:57 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:09:57 -0000
Subject: The impact of SWM (very long)
In-Reply-To: <idrktf+mpgn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idtjcl+osfu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189908



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:

> I think from the reaction of students watching and probably that of 
> the girls by the lake, that James was far from being the de facto leader 
> of Gryfiindor at this time. Lily's reaction sums this up. James, and 
> probably Sirius are seen as nothing more than a show-off group of 
> hooligans; Lupin and Wormtail probably not so much but James is 
> doing more than going round hexing people if you believe Lily's list.  

Pippin:
Lupin explains that everyone thought James was the height of cool. "Everyone"  obviously didn't include Lily. But  Wormtail wasn't James's only uncritical admirer. As long as he took care to pick on unpopular people, I think a lot of students liked that he wasn't getting pushed around by teachers or prefects and didn't kowtow to the stupid rules. And let's face it, they were stupid, from a kid's point of view. Why shouldn't a fourteen year old who has a craving for a midnight snack have just as much right to go down to the kitchens and get one as a teacher? Why should they have to put up with being snarled at and stalked by petty tyrants like Filch?

 It'd be interesting to know why Lily thought James was a toerag but Avery was evil, since I think it bears on her decision to see Snape's choices as final in a way that James's were not. My guess is that  neither she nor James ever  experienced what it was like to be alone and friendless for very long. They could understand the pain, but not the damage. 

Geoff:
> This event is  a pivotal point in the entire story because it sets up 
> events which, apparently a school yard spat will reshape three people's 
> lives. Snape's links to Voldemort, Lily's sacrifice and the long-running 
> unravelling of the prophecy binding Harry and Voldemort to its final 
> denouement 22 years later all stem from this moment on a summer 
> day in their Fifth Years.

Pippin:
If you lay the US hardcovers in order side by side you will find SWM almost exactly in the middle -- just where a pivotal event should be.

Pippin






From lynde at post.com  Fri Dec 10 19:10:28 2010
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:10:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why a secret keeper?
In-Reply-To: <idosim+a0s9@eGroups.com>
References: <idosim+a0s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CD66B50AFD7812-14C0-1756@web-mmc-d04.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189909









Lynda: Well, it seems to me that the type of secret they are talking about, (location where people are staying, location of headquarters for a secret organization) needs to be known by someone other than just the people who have that particular secret. With safe houses, one or two people within the orginazation know where someone is being kept, and it's the same thing here.

Lynda




Forgive me if this has already been discussed. Ever since I read 
about secret keepers I wondered why have them at all? Why do you 
have to tell your secret to someone? Why couldn't Lily and James 
kept the secret to themselves? It seems safer. What is it about 
Wizards that requires them to have a secret keeper?

Wendy






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sat Dec 11 00:21:16 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 00:21:16 -0000
Subject: The impact of SWM (very long)
In-Reply-To: <idtjcl+osfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idug5s+srm1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189910

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123@> wrote:

Geoff  previously): 
> > I think from the reaction of students watching and probably that of 
> > the girls by the lake, that James was far from being the de facto leader 
> > of Gryfiindor at this time. Lily's reaction sums this up. James, and 
> > probably Sirius are seen as nothing more than a show-off group of 
> > hooligans; Lupin and Wormtail probably not so much but James is 
> > doing more than going round hexing people if you believe Lily's list.  

Pippin:
> Lupin explains that everyone thought James was the height of cool. "Everyone"  obviously didn't include Lily. But  Wormtail wasn't James's only uncritical admirer. As long as he took care to pick on unpopular people, I think a lot of students liked that he wasn't getting pushed around by teachers or prefects and didn't kowtow to the stupid rules. And let's face it, they were stupid, from a kid's point of view. Why shouldn't a fourteen year old who has a craving for a midnight snack have just as much right to go down to the kitchens and get one as a teacher? Why should they have to put up with being snarled at and stalked by petty tyrants like Filch?

Geoff (currently):
I didn't mention Lupin in my quotes from SWM, but in the light of your 
observation, some of the canon is interesting:

 "Lupin had pulled out a book and was reading.'
(OOTP "Snape's Worst Memory" p.568 UK edition)

'Lupin and Wormtail remained sitting: Lupin was still staring down at his
book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had
appeared between his eyebrows...'
(ibid. p.569)

'Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included 
but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't and nor did Lily.'
(ibid. p.570)

Although I like Remus Lupin as a character, I am beginning to wonder 
whether Lupin is to James as Elphias Doge is to Dumbledore, the latter 
being so pro-Dumbledore that he explained everything away
and could only see good, or so it appeared in his obituary in DH.

I think that a sixteen year old who sees another student picking on 
someone, filling their mouth with bubbles, dangling them in the air,
calling them names and quite viciously stupefying or petrifying them,
ought to be suspicious of the attitudes of that student and see a bully
rather than someone to be admired.

Pippin: 
>  It'd be interesting to know why Lily thought James was a toerag but Avery was evil, since I think it bears on her decision to see Snape's choices as final in a way that James's were not. My guess is that  neither she nor James ever  experienced what it was like to be alone and friendless for very long. They could understand the pain, but not the damage. 
 
Geoff (currently):
My suspicion is because James was in Gryffindor and the others in Slytherin.
I think that the "all Slytherins are evil" was an attitude that existed long
before Harry met Ron.

Geoff ((previously):
> > This event is  a pivotal point in the entire story because it sets up 
> > events which, apparently a school yard spat will reshape three people's 
> > lives. Snape's links to Voldemort, Lily's sacrifice and the long-running 
> > unravelling of the prophecy binding Harry and Voldemort to its final 
> > denouement 22 years later all stem from this moment on a summer 
> > day in their Fifth Years.
> 
> Pippin:
> If you lay the US hardcovers in order side by side you will find SWM almost exactly in the middle -- just where a pivotal event should be.

Geoff:
What a strange comment. I went off to do a bit of Maths. The seven 
Bloomsbury UK editions add up to 3408 pages which according to your 
pivotal theory places it at page 1704.  This is actually about the third 
page of "The Hogwarts High Inquisitor" which puts your pivotal point
about 300 pages (or 10%) upstream of that.

But if you know anything about Applied Maths and engineering, the pivotal
point doesn't have to be at the centre of an action. A simple example is a 
see-saw. If two people of different weights sit on lone, the heavier person 
has to sit nearer the pivot. So it would seem that there is slightly more weight
in the books' action after this chapter than before... Or is there? On a timeline, 
this action , which I believe controls the story from then on, drives the action 
from 15 years before the opening chapter of PS. Hence, the whole of our 
see-saw mechanics is distorted...  So what? I can't see why it's bothering you.







From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Dec 11 02:03:05 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 02:03:05 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <idthnv+pnsm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <idum4p+bjs7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189911


> 
> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > Very interesting question here.  How did Snape get away from the Hog's Head without being Obliviated?  I really can't imagine DD would just let him go with even a portion of the prophecy or that DD would believe Snape's protestation that he didn't hear anyting (if he said that).
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Dumbledore, like Voldemort, believes what his powers of legilimency tell him. It's Aberforth's word against Snape's. We know that wizards have less obvious ways of overhearing conversations than pressing their ears to the keyhole, so probably all Aberforth actually saw was Snape in a corridor where he shouldn't have been.
> 
> 
> But supposing Dumbledore doubts himself and would like to make sure, there are still problems. 
> 
> Is it  possible to obliviate a memory that's being hidden by Occlumency? And even if it is, what then? Even if Snape means no harm, he's not going to stand there and let Dumbledore pull a wand on him. And there are two witnesses. Is Dumbledore going to obliviate them too? 
> 
> Pippin
>
Nikkalmati

If Aberforth were my brother, I would believe him above a former Slytherin student who palled around with pre-Death Eaters.  There is no reason to prove anything; the situation itself is suspicious.  Why take a chance?  I'm sure Aberforth would hold Snape for Obliviation if needed; and he would not report DD.  They could just excuse themselves for a minute and leave Trelawny by herself.  
As for Legilimancy, I doubt that Snape at this time would be able to occlude his most recent memory from DD, if DD wanted to find it.

Nikkalmati




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 11 04:42:09 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 04:42:09 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <idthnv+pnsm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iduvf1+ntll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189912



> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > Very interesting question here.  How did Snape get away from the Hog's Head without being Obliviated?  I really can't imagine DD would just let him go with even a portion of the prophecy or that DD would believe Snape's protestation that he didn't hear anyting (if he said that).
> > 
>

Alla:

I always thought that this was (ironically)one of the rare occasions that Dumbledore simply goofed up and Snape was faster than him, I think it would fit beatifully and should have served as reminder to Dumbledore that he indeed not always knows best and not alwaus a superior wizard.

Of course before anybody says that I fully acknowledge the possibility that Dumbledore deliberately let Snape get away and thus set up Lily and James for death and their son for all the sufferings and "glory" that lied ahead. All for the greater good of course. :(




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Dec 10 22:09:02 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:09:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Prophecy (was Re: Lily being spared)
In-Reply-To: <idsbjt+mkpf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <165646.95448.qm@web113910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>



> Nikkalmati:

I always felt there was a reason why Bella et al. went after the Longbottoms. LV had to know there were two children born at the right time whose parents (singly or together?) had defied him 3 times. After all, the Longbottoms were Aurors. He chose to go after the Potters first, but I think he also intended to kill Neville. That is why Bella and friends went to the Longbottom's. They knew LV intended to go there. He had obviously been successful at the Potters (Harry was in hiding), so if something went wrong it must have happened when he went to kill the other child, Neville.

Did DD offer the Longbottoms any protection? Had they come out of hiding after LV was destroyed? Did LV choose Harry just because he knew where to find him, thanks to Wormtail?

June:
The death eaters didn't know about the prophecy. It is my belief that Voldemort had planned on going after?both boys and?had Voldemort chosen to go after the Longbottoms first and had been able to kill Neville, he would have gone after the Potters also and we would have had the same story less Neville. The reason Bellatrix and the others went after the Longbottoms was that they did not understand what had happened to LV and thought being Aurors that the Longbottoms either had some thing to do with his dissappearance or knew what happened to him.
I have been thinking too and the prophecy may not have meant Neville at all. If LV had gone after Neville first who is to say that his parents would have been able to save him. I don't doubt they would have tried but would they have been able to. Different situations, different methods.



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 11 04:56:43 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 04:56:43 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Chapter discussions GOBLET OF FIRE
Message-ID: <idv0ab+5dbm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189914

Hi guys,

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Goblet of Fire chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).


Please, pretty please :)

Thanks, Alika elf for the list elves.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Dec 11 16:07:35 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 16:07:35 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <idum4p+bjs7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ie07k7+9s0i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189915


> Nikkalmati
> 
> If Aberforth were my brother, I would believe him above a former Slytherin student who palled around with pre-Death Eaters.  There is no reason to prove anything; the situation itself is suspicious.  Why take a chance?

Pippin:
For the same reason he didn't think the Ministry should have arrested Stan Shunpike. Some chances are worth taking. 

And while Albus would trust Aberforth's sincerity, he probably wouldn't trust his assessment of the evidence. 

At this time Dumbledore wouldn't know that the people  Snape had palled around with at school were pre-Death Eaters, because they weren't exposed until after Voldemort's fall. 

And again, innocent or guilty, Snape isn't going to let Albus and Aberforth haul him off against his will. He'll put up a fight. The last time Albus and Aberforth got into a three way fight with a suspected Dark Wizard, an innocent person died. Is keeping Voldemort from hearing about a supposed prophecy which he may or may not believe worth so much? 

Dumbledore has no more idea than Snape has of what Voldemort might do if he heard it, and no idea, if my theory is correct, that what Voldemort is going to hear is only a fragment that might entice him to attack  sooner rather than later. 

Nikkalmati:
> As for Legilimancy, I doubt that Snape at this time would be able to occlude his most recent memory from DD, if DD wanted to find it.

Pippin:
 There'd be no point in sending Snape to spy on Voldemort if Dumbledore didn't think he could get away with it. And Voldemort would definitely use every means to make sure that his spy was remaining loyal. 

Pippin





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Dec 11 19:02:21 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 Dec 2010 19:02:21 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/12/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1292094141.514.10946.m10@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189916

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec 11 22:53:18 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 14:53:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <iduvf1+ntll@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <884766.98819.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189917

> > Nikkalmati:
> > Very interesting question here. How did Snape get away from
the Hog's Head without being Obliviated? I really can't imagine
DD would just let him go with even a portion of the prophecy or
that DD would believe Snape's protestation that he didn't hear
anything (if he said that).
> >

> Alla:
> I always thought that this was (ironically) one of the rare
occasions that Dumbledore simply goofed up and Snape was faster
than him, I think it would fit beautifully and should have served
as reminder to Dumbledore that he indeed not always knows best
and not always a superior wizard. <snip>
>


June:
Dumbledore once told Harry that he too makes mistakes and that
being as intelligent as he is they tend to be larger than other
people's mistakes (not those exact words). Do you think it
possible that when he said that, he was thinking of this
particular moment?








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Dec 12 17:55:27 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 12 Dec 2010 17:55:27 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/12/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1292176527.10.87081.m6@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189919

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday December 12, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Dec 13 17:13:48 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:13:48 -0000
Subject: The impact of SWM (very long)
In-Reply-To: <idug5s+srm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ie5k8d+pqrj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189920

Geoff:
> Although I like Remus Lupin as a character, I am beginning to wonder 
> whether Lupin is to James as Elphias Doge is to Dumbledore, the latter 
> being so pro-Dumbledore that he explained everything away
> and could only see good, or so it appeared in his obituary in DH.

Pippin:
Lupin didn't explain everything away; you can see that he's uncomfortable although he doesn't speak up. I think he's more comparable to Harry near the end of HPB. Harry's afraid to make his objections to what Dumbledore is doing any more forceful, lest Dumbledore change his mind and decide not to bring him on the horcrux hunt. Lupin describes similar feelings in PoA. He felt he was betraying Dumbledore's trust and  he put those feelings aside because he wanted the adventures with James to continue.

Geoff:
> I think that a sixteen year old who sees another student picking on 
> someone, filling their mouth with bubbles, dangling them in the air,
> calling them names and quite viciously stupefying or petrifying them,
> ought to be suspicious of the attitudes of that student and see a bully
> rather than someone to be admired.

Pippin:
I think so too. But JKR shows us that, alas, it doesn't always work that way. People don't see the nastiness and get concerned. They have to be  concerned before they can see the nastiness, especially nastiness that's outside their experience. If James had used the cruciatus curse on Snape, people would have recognized that as evil, IMO. But hey, he's just making Snivellus blow bubbles, right? I don't think they care enough about old Snivelly to perceive what James is doing as really bad. 

JKR put me in the same position -- I have to confess that the first time I read the Ton-tongue toffee chapter I laughed my head off. I don't think it's funny now, because JKR made me feel differently about Dudley. 

To return to SWM, I don't think even Lily sees the nastiness for what it is. To judge by her words, she's more upset by James's aggressive and  conceited behavior than the prospect of serious harm to Snape. 

Geoff:
> 
> But if you know anything about Applied Maths and engineering, the pivotal
> point doesn't have to be at the centre of an action. A simple example is a 
> see-saw. If two people of different weights sit on lone, the heavier person 
> has to sit nearer the pivot. So it would seem that there is slightly more weight
> in the books' action after this chapter than before... Or is there? On a timeline, 
> this action , which I believe controls the story from then on, drives the action 
> from 15 years before the opening chapter of PS. Hence, the whole of our 
> see-saw mechanics is distorted...  So what? I can't see why it's bothering you.

Pippin:
It's a plot-nerd kind of thing. There's usually a some development in the middle of a story that shakes up the characters and sends them towards the conclusion along a path they didn't realize they were going to take. It isn't bothering me, I'm just taking note of the plot mechanics. Although this incident took place years before Harry was even born, Harry experiences it when he is the same age as the participants, just about midway through his story, and  for the first time he discovers some sympathy for Snape. 

It seems for a long time as though nothing comes of it, until, when he relives the incident for the second time in DH , he is able to understand that it was rage and humiliation, not evil, that made Snape use "the unforgivable word."

Pippin






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Dec 14 03:47:19 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 03:47:19 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations
In-Reply-To: <ie07k7+9s0i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ie6pc7+u1nk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189921

 
> Pippin:
snip. 
> 
> At this time Dumbledore wouldn't know that the people  Snape had palled around with at school were pre-Death Eaters, because they weren't exposed until after Voldemort's fall. 
> 

Potioncat:
I agree. Although I don't remember if we see the interaction between Snape and the Dumbledores, we do see how Albus treats DE!Snape on the windy hilltop. Certainly if he knew it was a DE eavesdropping, DD would have treated Snape as an enemy.

In literature a prophecy is often caused in part by someone's effort to prevent it from happening. Trelawney had spoken the prophecy which was heard in part by two people. The prophecy was in play. DD may have felt that to try to prevent it might only facilitate its progression. 

I don't think in that short moment between hearing Trelawney's words and becoming aware of Snape, that DD had any time to evaluate the prophecy--to have any opinion or theory of what LV might do or even who the prophecy might mean.




From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Dec 14 17:49:27 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:49:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The impact of SWM (very long)
In-Reply-To: <ie5k8d+pqrj@eGroups.com>
References: <ie5k8d+pqrj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D07AE27.4050403@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189922

Pippin:
> I think so too. But JKR shows us that, alas, it doesn't always work that way. People don't see the nastiness and get concerned. They have to be  concerned before they can see the nastiness, especially nastiness that's outside their experience. If James had used the cruciatus curse on Snape, people would have recognized that as evil, IMO. But hey, he's just making Snivellus blow bubbles, right? I don't think they care enough about old Snivelly to perceive what James is doing as really bad.

Bart:
     Here's the thing: while we witness James & Sirius's antics, we only 
hear about Snape's side more or less second hand from sources that are 
prejudiced (Lupin) or have reason to hide some of the facts (DD). So we 
have to use clues. Snape was skilled in curses (from Lupin, Sirius and 
HBP notes), gave as good as he got (from Lupin), and it was a rivalry 
rather than a case of bullies and a victim (DD). Still, as Snape came 
from an abusive background (Snape's memories), he was a good target for 
Morty's followers (Snape's memories).

     Let's take a look at SWM. Consider his use of the term, "Mudblood" 
for Lily. Now, as half-Muggle himself, one can be reasonably certain 
that "Mudblood" is NOT a term he grew up with. And for the Sorting Hat 
to put him into Slytherin, he needed to have factors which were more 
important than his half-blood status (I'm not going to go into fuzzy 
logic systems, but generally, when a multi-factored decision is made, a 
much higher than required level in one factor tends to reduce the 
relative importance of others; Hermoine and Neville ending up in 
Gryffindor instead of Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, respectively, being good 
examples). While he was vulnerable to the need to be friends with his 
fellow Slytherins, he was not helpless. If the attacks were two-way, 
that would explain the other students' relative lack of concern over 
Snape's predicament.

     Now, here's where we go into my own personal experience. I grew up 
in the 1960's. I lived near a fort, so the children of the soldiers 
stationed there attended my elementary school, which meant that my 
school was fairly well integrated. I lived in a household where the 
so-called "N word" was never used, to the point that I had never even 
heard it until I was about the age of the First Years. And the thing is 
that even though I have heard many times since, even if I was in great 
anger at a person of sub-Saharan African descent, I would not use the 
word, not because I have that much self control, but because the word is 
not filed in a place where my anger would reach (I would certainly have 
a bunch of other insults in that area of my brain; the point is that the 
term in question is filed under "abstract insults", and would be as 
likely to use it as I would use, say, "mudblood").

     In order for Snape to draw upon it in anger, he must have been 
using it on a sufficiently regular basis that, when his angry brain 
searched for an appropriate response, that was the word that came up. As 
we find out in the final book, the problem wasn't his humiliation by 
James; it was that, when it came down to it, he reflexively chose the 
DE's and rejected Lily. Those who have read 1984 may recall the pivotal 
scene in the torture scene, where the victim (I'm avoiding spoilers for 
the few who are NOT familiar with the novel) makes a similar choice. 
Rather than taking the blame himself, he blames James for his own 
failure, to the point that he is unable to believe that James' motives 
in the Prank were altruistic in nature (as an aside, I had REALLY hoped 
that JKR would have a "good Slytherin" who would join with Harry and/or 
the DA's, one with the attitude "This rivalry stuff is just a game; 
Morty is REAL.").

     JKR does not write in "omniscient reader mode". We have to deal 
with the limited information we have. But I find it hard to believe 
that, especially considering DD's attitude towards Snape as revealed in 
Snape's final account, Snape was the simple victim of bullying; DD would 
have had a lot more sympathy towards him if he had.

     Bart




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Dec 15 04:34:47 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 20:34:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The impact of SWM (very long)
In-Reply-To: <4D07AE27.4050403@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <256291.44288.qm@web113910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189923

Bart:
Here's the thing: while we witness James & Sirius's antics, we only
hear about Snape's side more or less second hand from sources that
are prejudiced (Lupin) or have reason to hide some of the facts
(DD). So we have to use clues. Snape was skilled in curses (from
Lupin, Sirius and HBP notes), gave as good as he got (from Lupin),
and it was a rivalry rather than a case of bullies and a victim
(DD). Still, as Snape came from an abusive background (Snape's
memories), he was a good target for Morty's followers (Snape's
memories).

Let's take a look at SWM. Consider his use of the term, "Mudblood"
for Lily. Now, as half-Muggle himself, one can be reasonably
certain that "Mudblood" is NOT a term he grew up with. And for the
Sorting Hat to put him into Slytherin, he needed to have factors
which were more important than his half-blood status <snip>

<snip>

In order for Snape to draw upon it in anger, he must have been
using it on a sufficiently regular basis that, when his angry brain
searched for an appropriate response, that was the word that came
up. As we find out in the final book, the problem wasn't his
humiliation by James; it was that, when it came down to it, he
reflexively chose the DE's and rejected Lily. <snip> (as an aside,
I had REALLY hoped that JKR would have a "good Slytherin" who would
join with Harry and/or the DA's, one with the attitude "This rivalry
stuff is just a game; Morty is REAL."). <snip>


June:
I have to agree with Bart that we do only see one side of the abuse
of Snape. Given what I have seen of the way Snape was toward Harry
I would think just the fact that James was interested in Lily would
probably be enough for Snape to lash out at James.

As for the lash out of he calling Lily a Mudblood, personally I am
not a swearer at all but if pushed in a corner I can sound like a
trucker, lol. Therefore it is possible that feeling pushed into a
corner he could have used a word (Mudblood) that he normally would
not have. That being said, he was totally out of line to say it to
Lily like he did and it may have been a normal thing for him to say
(I am on the wall with that one).

Also I feel I should let you know that Snape himself isn't a
mudblood. A mudblood is a witch or wizard where both the parents
are muggles. Snape's mother was a witch but his father was a muggle
so he was half blood (like Voldemort).

One more thing. Hagrid had said that every witch or wizard who
turned evil had been in Slytherin. That doesn't mean that every
Slytherin is?evil. Also he either didn't want to mention or forgot
that there was at least one who was not from Slytherin. At that
time everyone thought it was Sirius but it turned out to be
Wormtail, both of whom were from Gryffindor. Also let's not forget
Sirius' brother Regulus who was a Slytherin but turned good.






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Dec 15 16:43:22 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 16:43:22 -0000
Subject: The impact of SWM (very long)
In-Reply-To: <4D07AE27.4050403@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <iear7a+54ta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189924

 
> Bart:

>      Let's take a look at SWM. Consider his use of the term, "Mudblood" 
> for Lily. Now, as half-Muggle himself, one can be reasonably certain 
> that "Mudblood" is NOT a term he grew up with.

Pippin:
I wouldn't be sure of that at all. Young Snape  was part of the magical world and like it or not "mudblood" is a part of it. Eileen Prince Snape may have used it just as casually as Phineas Nigellus did. As June has pointed out, it didn't apply to her son. He was a halfblood and would be seen as owing his magical powers to his pureblood ancestry, not like one of those muggleborn "freaks".

Bart:
" If the attacks were two-way,  that would explain the other students' relative lack of concern over  Snape's predicament."

Pippin:
Is that how we are going to explain everyone's lack of concern over Harry's predicament at his Muggle school? No, I am afraid they just did not want to see a scruffy, sarcastic, unpopular weirdo as someone  like themselves, thank you very much.

Bart: 
>      In order for Snape to draw upon it in anger, he must have been 
> using it on a sufficiently regular basis that, when his angry brain 
> searched for an appropriate response, that was the word that came up.

Pippin:
Now here I can disagree from personal experience. A boy I knew as a child had a little sister who was retarded (that's what we called it then). We were not supposed to use that word in her hearing under any circumstances and we didn't.  We didn't use it much at all in any case. Only once,  I was so mad at my supposed friend (who was my friend only when the neighborhood bully wasn't around) that I screamed, in the little girl's presence, "YOUR SISTER'S RETARDED!" I knew it was wrong when I did it, I knew I would get in trouble, I knew it was unfair and I was so angry that I didn't care. I just wanted to say the worst thing I could think of, and it had been specially impressed on me not to use that word. 

 Bart: 
>As  we find out in the final book, the problem wasn't his humiliation by 
> James; it was that, when it came down to it, he reflexively chose the 
> DE's and rejected Lily. 

Pippin:
IIRC, Snape was trying to apologize and Lily slammed the door on him.  Snape wasn't the only one who was being reflexive. She may have been right that there was something seriously wrong with Snape if he couldn't see that Avery was a bad person to be hanging around with. But it's a design flaw in the whole human race -- Harry didn't want to hear a word against his friends, even when one of them was abusing a House Elf on a daily basis. 

Bart:
>      JKR does not write in "omniscient reader mode". We have to deal 
> with the limited information we have. But I find it hard to believe 
> that, especially considering DD's attitude towards Snape as revealed in 
> Snape's final account, Snape was the simple victim of bullying; DD would 
> have had a lot more sympathy towards him if he had.
> 
Pippin:
I did not say that DE Snape was the simple victim of bullying. But I think that's what he was in SWM. Lupin and Sirius can't find anything worse to say about him than that he was this weird kid who knew a lot about the Dark Arts. If he'd been a nasty child, they would have said so.

 A manipulative genius like Voldemort can take  disaffected aggressive people like Snape and weld them into Death Eaters. They fall apart at once without him. That isn't to say that there's nothing they could have done to avoid being manipulated by him. But if you think of the Slytherins as bad through and through and solely responsible for Voldemort's rise, you're missing JKR's point, IMO.

Pippin







From jnoyl at aim.com  Wed Dec 15 20:29:38 2010
From: jnoyl at aim.com (J Lyon)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 13:29:38 -0700
Subject: The impact of SWM (very long)
Message-ID: <595986BC04574FDDB337CEDC135CDEBB@WagsnPurrs>

James:
That wasn't Snape's worst memory. That was Snape's choice as the
worst memory to leave out for Harry, that insufferable, nosy brat.
Next, there was a war going on and most of the evil was coming
from the Slytherins and Bumbles was NOT controlling the school. I
can truly see the "pranks"? as being against the elite, pureblood
bigots most likely for what they did to other students.
I feel sorry for Snape's home life, but I know people who have come
from much worse and are still loving, compassionate people. Snape
made his own choices and they were ALL wrong.

How's that Hope and Change workin' for ya?





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Dec 15 23:45:04 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 23:45:04 -0000
Subject: The impact of SWM (very long)
In-Reply-To: <595986BC04574FDDB337CEDC135CDEBB@WagsnPurrs>
Message-ID: <iebju0+2k5s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189926



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "J Lyon" <jnoyl at ...> wrote:
 
James:
> Snape made his own choices and they were ALL wrong.

Geoff:
And I maintain, that was as a result of what happened that day and that
three people - Snape, Lily and James - underwent or began to undergo 
a sea change.

As I intimated earlier, we can only agree to disagree because canon is 
insufficiently complete and there are different interpretations which can  
be made.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Dec 18 18:58:17 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 18 Dec 2010 18:58:17 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/19/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1292698697.13.40406.m4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189927

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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Weekly Chat
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Dec 19 17:55:31 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 19 Dec 2010 17:55:31 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/19/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1292781331.564.61634.m15@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189928

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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Weekly Chat
Sunday December 19, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
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Notes:
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From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 22 02:03:35 2010
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 02:03:35 -0000
Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? (Really Long)
In-Reply-To: <ib86n0+m6ok@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ierm9n+p00l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189929

Mike:
Pardon me for chopping up you post. I wanted to put theme's of yours and those that you quoted from Elkins together.

> katherinemaurer:
> So, am I correct in saying that Barty "felt" like his father didn't
> love him, because he wasn't being loved. (This is where Sirius and
> several members of the public may have gone astray and thought that
> Crouch Sr. didn't care for his son.) Although, he did care for his
> son, as he was highly invested in him to become exactly like
> himself. He thought it was love, but it wasn't love. <snip>

> Add Elkins with: Message #47933 (about Crouch Sr. loving his son).
> 
> "I'm sure that Crouch believed that he loved his son," Elkins
> says. "I'm absolutely positive of that. I'm sure that he told
> himself that he was taking such pains to preserve his son's life
> not only to honor his wife's last wishes, but also because he truly
> and genuinely loved his son. But I'm not altogether convinced that
> Barty Crouch Sr. really understood the meaning of that word. I
> don't think that he really got that whole love concept any better
> than Voldemort does."

Mike:
I'm taking a long time getting back to you on this, school and work have a way of getting in the way. :) You wanted to know where I disagree with Elkins theories, so here they are, all in my opinion.

The reason Barty Jr "felt" like his father didn't love him was because his father didn't love him. It's not just that Barty Sr didn't comprehend what *love* is, he may or may not have. But Sr was too invested in his carreer as a politician and moving up the ladder in the WW to have time to impart love on his son so far away at Hogwarts. He can't spare the time, isn't that interested, and probably wouldn't know how to show love to a son if he was so inclined. Sure, he wanted his son to do well at Hogwarts, but that was more so he could tout his accomplishments with an understated "my son has recently gained twelve O.W.L.s, most satisfactory" (GoF, p.556). As if, well of course he gained twelve O.W.L.s, he is *my* son after all. There was no love in that pronouncement, only self-flattery.

And when Barty Jr gets caught with the Lestranges doing a number on the Longbottoms, Sr bellows loudly for the whole courtroom to hear, "I have no son!"(GoF, p.596). Except, everyone in that room knows that Jr is his son by birth. Barty Sr could have just sat down, consoled his wife. But no, he had to make that pronouncement for the whole WW to know he has disowned him. Somebody that, as Elkins said, "truly and genuinely loved his son," doesn't make that comment. But someone that merely has a son that exists to make him look better, has no trouble disowning his son when it looks like his son is doing the opposite. Barty Jr is simply a tool in Barty Sr's toolbelt, one that needs to be discarded when it stops working properly. That's not love for his son, that's utility.

Is there any chance that Barty Jr was not reading his father the same way that I'm reading him now? Not a chance, IMHO. Barty Jr is probably not only hard working, but he must be a bright and perceptive boy. Twelve O.W.L.s speaks to both. You can't get there being only smart and hard working. Magic takes perception, not just rote knowledge. Hermione is proof of that. She can't comprehend Divination because she has no inclination towards that subject. But she also can't deal with Trelawney. By virtue of his 12 O.W.L.s, Barty Jr must have figured out how to pass Divination, with whomever was teaching it.

Barty Jr must have known that his father didn't really love him, that he was merely a tool on his father's toolbelt. But what of his mother, you say? Surely his mother loved him, right? Sorry to burst that bubble on Elkins, but I doubt Mrs Crouch was much better than her husband in this department. She was allowed into the courtroom, no doubt an extrordinary priviledge to get to sit down front next to her husband. Does she plead for her son, does she protest in any way the judgement? No, she sits there quietly crying, playing her role for her huband's sake. Barty Sr has to look tough, so Mrs Crouch has to play the part of grieving mother for the family. That way they have all bases covered, sympathy for that family's plight and admiration for their fortitude will surely follow. IMHO, Mrs Crouch must be somewhat of a cold fish to remain married to Barty Sr. I think Barty Jr would have had almost as much luck wringing love out of his mother as he did his father.


> katherinemaurer:
> My theory as to why Barty Jr chose LV of all people to serve,
> (unlike someone like Ludo Bagman - Barty Jr was into Quidditch,
> he could have idolised him instead) was because in continuing to
> want to serve people like his father, he wanted to serve LV.

Mike:
This is one interpretation, and I'm not going to say you are wrong. Certainly Elkins takes this approach. But I take a different approach to Bary Jr's traveling the evil path. Hold that thought for a sec.


> katherinemaurer:
> Thematically, LV was the same as his father in their similar
> actions and ways of treating people/servants. LV, like Crouch Sr
> also inspired such great loyalty in his son, which added to LV's
> appeal.
> 
> What do you think about that? Do you think I'm right?
> 
> Also,  I'll show you some snippets of some of Elkins' posts
> relating to Barty Jr joining LV.
> 
> Message #47933 (about Crouch Sr. being thematically linked to LV).
> 
> "Voldemort presents as a father figure in the graveyard." she says
> again, very softly. "And he is strongly textually linked to Crouch
> Sr."

Mike:
I think it was more rebellion against that father figure that drove Barty Jr to Voldemort. I don't think Barty Jr needed or wanted another father figure. He had one of those and didn't exactly like him, thank you very much. He had had enough of trying to please people that weren't going to respond in kind. Growing up, I'm betting he received very little praise for his accomplishments, much schooling on the proper way to be, and quite a bit of chastising if he did not act properly.

Barty Jr had no doubt heard that Voldemort rewards his people, when they perform for him. That's something that he was not able to get from his parents. I don't think Barty Jr had any more loyalty left for his father, so moving on wasn't a problem. If he wasn't going to get something for all his hard work from a couple of unloving parents, he's ready to try his luck elsewhere. Here is one place where I agree with Elkins, the Crouches were most likely Slytherins. So Barty Jr will have a much different perspective on joining Voldemort than the Gryffindors' will.

And there's another thing about Barty Jr: he's a damn good actor. Did you see that show he put on for the court by begging and pleading to his father? Claiming he wasn't a part of the Longbottom torture, insinuation he was a victim of circumstance? In hindsight, we know he was a willing follower, probably as rabid as Bellatrix. But you couldn't detect that in that courtroom scene. In fact, I even got the feeling that the 3 co-defendants weren't sure that ole Barty Jr was with them 100% or not. And do I even need to mention the whole year he spent playing Moody right under Dumbledore's eyes?

Why is this important? Because in order to perform many of the spells, especially the unforgivables, you have to really mean it. You have to enjoy handing out pain, according to Bella. That tells me that Barty Jr had a strong mean streak in him, but that he was also able to hide that very well. If he takes up with Voldemort, he'll be able to feed those evil tendencies with impunity; in fact, he'll get rewarded for it. That's 2 positives in Barty Jr's eyes for joining up, now isn't it?

On to themes: Barty Jr's story actually supports 2 themes in my opinion. He is the reverse foil to Harry's story. Growing up in wealth and priviledge, with his parents, he's the boy that turns evil when everything seems to favor him. He chooses to make himself a "marked" man, marked with the Dark Mark. Like Harry, he has something evil inside of him. But unlike Harry, he has neither the will nor the desire to suppress his evil. Also, Barty Jr is a quitter. When things don't go his way with his parents, he quits society to join anarchy. When he gets caught with the Lestranges, he tries to quit the Death Eaters. When Voldemort's plan for Harry fails, he quits the plan and tries for an impromptu killing of Harry. Maybe he forgot after all those years, but Voldemort isn't likely to reward him for killing Harry, Voldemort had already said he wanted to kill Harry himself. One thing Harry is not, and that's a quitter.

Barty Jr is also linked to Draco's story. They have similar upbringings as far as surroundings are concerned, though their parents political leanings are different. But the big difference between Barty Jr and Draco is that Draco's parents love him. It's their love for Draco that probably save him. Both Draco and Barty Jr get involved with Voldemort at a young age. But Narcissa goes to Snape, a move that probably saves Draco's life. While Barty Jr, without parental love, no one to turn to when he needs it, loses everything.



> katherinemaurer:
> But some of Elkins' posts, I don't understand. Do you think
> that you would be able to shed some light on them?

Mike: 
I'll try, don't know if it will help though. These fall under the category of disagreeing with Elkins.


> Message #47927
> 
> "...but I'd say that her son took after her in a lot more ways
> than just physical frailty."
> 
> "He didn't get her strength of resolve, though," points out Eileen.
> 
> "No. He didn't get her strength of resolve. Either of his parents'
> strengths of resolve, really. But then, you know, when you have
> someone who is an only child, a talented only child, an only child
> of a wealthy family, whose parents are both immensely devoted to
> each other, both highly invested in their child's performance, and
> who are both made of pure steel?"
> 
> <snip>
> 
> "It's often difficult for people with that sort of upbringing to
> develop any normal sense of self-assertion," she says quietly.
> "Or of independence. Or of individuation. Or even of identity,
> really. <snip>
> 
> "The tendency to get caught up in fantasy," she whispers. "To
> allow oneself to become subsumed. Subsumed into other people's
> desires. Subsumed into other people's personae."

Mike:
I hope I left enough. :) 

I don't say Elkins is wrong, and she didn't have the benefit of HBP to help her interpretation. But I say look at Draco. Strong-willed parents for sure, yet parents that loved him. Draco doesn't have a problem with self-assertion. He knows what he wants and goes after it. I say Barty was the same, he knows he wants to feed his evil side and he knows he can get to do that with Voldemort. Barty is a very good actor, he hid that side of himself from everyone (that apparently included Elkins ;o).

Draco does join up with Voldemort, but I don't think it was to live a fantasy. He is sucked in like so many, including his parents, got sucked in with Voldemort. He assumes taking on a job for Voldemort will please his parents, but his naivet? gets in the way. Narcissa knows that Draco's job is not for rewards, it's to get him killed as punishment for Lucius. 

Likewise, I think Barty Jr wasn't joining Voldemort to feed a fantasy, not in his mind. Barty Jr thinks he's joining the eventual winning side, and there's every reason for him to believe that. Dumbledore says that Voldemort *was* winning around the time that Barty would have joined. Barty Jr purposly takes action that he knows won't please his parents, in contrast to Draco's thinking. I know it is many years later, but Barty Jr's actions in GoF bespeak of a man that very definitely has his own sense of self. We may look at his sense as warped, but consider his options; he hitched his wagon to Voldemort, knows he can't ever get out of that, and tries very hard to make that work out in his favor. His desires are his own, albeit his desires are to please Voldemort.

The question you have to ask is: what could Barty Jr do? Well, he could have not fought the Imperious curse of his father and remained a prisoner in his father's house, under the control of a man he despised. (I remind you that not a lot of people liked Barty Sr, either.) That, to me, would be the action of a weak-willed person. That's the person that Elkins paints.

Barty Jr's other choice is to break out of that prison and to rejoin Voldemort. Well, where else is he going to go? Like Wormtail, he has nowhere else to turn. Unlike Wormtail, he is an escaped prisoner of Azkaban. So Voldemort it is. He takes his chances that things will work out this time. See, that doesn't sound like a person subsumed into Voldemort's personae. That actually sounds like his most logical option. Now, like I said, this is many years later, after he joined up as a young man, a teenager. So he may have been a little more delusional back when he joined up.

But then I have one question for you: what about Snape? Completely different upbringing, just as bright if not smarter than Barty Jr, and still he joins up. No, sorry, not buying that young Severus was delusional. And not buying that young Barty Crouch Jr was delusional either. I think Barty Jr knew what he wanted and went for it, just like many his age had.

Two more quickies:

> Message #47931, Elkins speaking:
> 
> "If Crouch was anything," says Elkins. "I'd say that he was too
> interested in his son. Way too interested in him. Unhealthily
> interested in him. Over-involved. Over-identified. I do think that
> Crouch was a terrible parental influence, but not because he was
> disinterested. Because he was over-identified. And also because of
> the falsehoods that he projected about himself. Falsehoods that
> his son took far too seriously."

Mike:
I disagree completely. I think Crouch Sr was anything but interested in his son, other than what his son could do for him. I do agree that Sr projected falsehoods, but that Jr saw right through them and saw his father for who he was. I think by the time Crouch Jr reached his late teens, he no longer wanted to live in his father's world. He wanted to change that world and he saw Voldemort as the engine for that change.



> <snip>
> 
> Elkins shakes her head slowly. "I don't really think that I agree
> with that precisely," she says. "Not that I don't think that Crouch
> was a pretty tyrannical father, mind. I'm sure that he was. <snip>
> For one thing, I don't see why we should assume that Voldemort used
> the exact same seduction speech with all of his followers. Was
> Barty Jr. really a 'power and the will to seek it' sort of person,
> do you think? I don't think that's quite the way his mind worked.
> After all, he told us what his greatest ambition was, didn't he?
> He told us when he was under the veritaserum. He said that his
> greatest ambition was to serve. To serve, and to prove himself
> worthy of service. In other words," she says. "He wanted to be as
> truly devoted to the service of some cause as his father, the
> supposed public servant, merely pretended to be."

Mike:
Well, yeah, Barty Jr did say that he thought only of rejoining his Master, "of returning to his service." (GoF, p.685), once he was out of Azkaban. Does that mean he only wanted to serve? As I asked above, what were his options?



> <snip>
> "Do you remember what I was saying before, about Crouch's
> relationship with his son?"
> 
> "You said that you thought that it reiterated on the personal
> level his political relationship with the wizarding world,"
> 
> "Right. Well, the reason that parricide and tyrannicide are so
> closely conceptually linked is because fathers and leaders are
> closely conceptually linked. Crouch had very much the same effect
> on his public as he did on his son, I'd say. He told lies that
> people believed, and the lies that he told were really very bad
> for them. We keep being told about how fearful and paranoid
> everyone was during the war, don't we? Sirius mentions it. Hagrid
> mentions it. Well, how do you think that they got that way?"
> 
> "Because Voldemort and his DEs were conducting a war of terror?"
> 
> "In part. But also because they were being encouraged to react
> that way by their own leaders. Paranoia like that is never
> a one-way street."

Mike:
Not sure if this is the part you wanted help with, but here goes.

Elkins is saying that Barty Sr convinced the WW that the only way to defeat Voldemort was to fight fire with fire. They use the unforgivables, so we need to use the unforgivables against them. Elkins is claiming that Barty Sr must have lied about the threat in order to get permission to use those unforgivables. That Barty Sr pumped up the paranoia of Voldemort around the WW. Barty Sr must have used the incidents of DE attacks to convince everyone that they were next, unless he was granted more powers. It's a technique power-hungry people use to gain more power. Scare them more than they have to be scared and they'll do anything to let you save them from the threat. Of course, it's a slippery slope to go down.

Elkins is reading between the lines. I'm not saying she's right or wrong.

Mike, hoping I helped Katherine a little bit.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Dec 22 18:26:24 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 18:26:24 -0000
Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? (Really Long)
In-Reply-To: <ierm9n+p00l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ietfsg+j7e4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189930

Mike:<drastically snipped>
> 
> Barty Jr's other choice is to break out of that prison and to rejoin Voldemort. Well, where else is he going to go? Like Wormtail, he has nowhere else to turn. Unlike Wormtail, he is an escaped prisoner of Azkaban. So Voldemort it is. He takes his chances that things will work out this time. See, that doesn't sound like a person subsumed into Voldemort's personae. That actually sounds like his most logical option. Now, like I said, this is many years later, after he joined up as a young man, a teenager. So he may have been a little more delusional back when he joined up.
> 

Pippin:
First of all, Barty didn't "break out" of Azkaban. His mother and father rescued him. His mother was dying anyway, but she chose to spend her last days in a prison cell, surrounded by dementors, in order to save her son. Was that rational self-interest?

 Barty Jr had been a free man, completely unsuspected, after Voldemort's fall. He could have refused to join Bella in her mad quest to locate the fallen Dark Lord, and slipped back into normal wizarding life like the Malfoys and so many others. He didn't. Whatever his motivation was, it couldn't have been rational self-interest either. 

I'd say that Voldemort, who is  a keen judge of character except where mothers are concerned, was right. Barty Jr  was fanatically loyal to him. Simply put, Voldemort knows how to inspire loyalty in his servants. He's not  good at *keeping* it, and most of them became disillusioned sooner or later. But Barty and Bella did not. Certainly they are depicted as irrational in canon.  

Mike:
> But then I have one question for you: what about Snape? Completely different upbringing, just as bright if not smarter than Barty Jr, and still he joins up. No, sorry, not buying that young Severus was delusional. And not buying that young Barty Crouch Jr was delusional either. I think Barty Jr knew what he wanted and went for it, just like many his age had.

Pippin:
Not delusional, but easily manipulated and tired of being called a nasty liar for saying things he knows but can't prove. Having just re-read OOP, I  think the DE's had the same attractions for Snape that the DA  had for Harry. Shunned by many of his peers, he  found a way to get respect and attention from at least some of them, while the adults in his life were either untrustworthy, distant or overwhelmed by problems of their own.  It was the one area in his life that was consistently rewarding. Between that and a conflicted relationship with a girl he scarcely understood, and who didn't understand him at all, there was no contest.  

Pippin





From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 23 04:03:51 2010
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 04:03:51 -0000
Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? (Really Long)
In-Reply-To: <ietfsg+j7e4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ieuhn7+bcr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189931




> Pippin:
> First of all, Barty didn't "break out" of Azkaban. His mother and
> father rescued him. His mother was dying anyway, but she chose to
> spend her last days in a prison cell, surrounded by dementors, in
> order to save her son. Was that rational self-interest?

Mike:
Let me quote myself from the paragraph prior, that you snipped:

In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189929
"The question you have to ask is: what could Barty Jr do? Well, he could have not fought the Imperious curse of his father and remained a prisoner in his father's house,"

That's the "prison" I was referring to when I said: "Barty Jr's other choice is to break out of that prison and to rejoin Voldemort."

But beyond that, Barty did "break out" of Azkaban. The fact that he made the escape because his parents did all the work, doesn't make it any less of a break out. He wasn't released or paroled or exonerated, was he? He didn't have his sentence shortened or commutated either.

Rational self-interest on the part of his mother? Is that the question? If it is, I'd say that whatever was killing Mrs Crouch must have either made her remorseful towards her son or she had lost enough of her marbles that living amongst the Dementors for her last few days made no difference to her. In either case, she had so little time to live that she came up with this plan to save Barty Jr. Barty Jr certainly believed his mother loved him, unlike his father.



> Pippin:
> Barty Jr had been a free man, completely unsuspected, after
> Voldemort's fall. He could have refused to join Bella in her mad
> quest to locate the fallen Dark Lord, and slipped back into normal
> wizarding life like the Malfoys and so many others. He didn't.
> Whatever his motivation was, it couldn't have been rational
> self-interest either.
> <snip>
> Barty Jr  was fanatically loyal to him. Simply put, Voldemort knows
> how to inspire loyalty in his servants. He's not good at *keeping*
> it, and most of them became disillusioned sooner or later. But
> Barty and Bella did not. Certainly they are depicted as irrational
> in canon.

Mike:
I never said Barty Jr wasn't rabidly loyal to Voldemort. In fact, I said: " In hindsight, we know he was a willing follower, probably as rabid as Bellatrix." and I said: "His desires are his own, albeit his desires are to please Voldemort."

I suppose he could have "slipped back into normal wizarding life like the Malfoys" if he was like the Malfoys, but he wasn't. He was someone who, like Bella, enjoyed torturing, IMHO. He wanted the wizarding world that Voldemort promised and wanted to be a top follower of Voldemort. Obviously we are supposed to see that as irrational, we are supposed to see all LV followers as irrational, aren't we? But I'm trying to put myself in Barty Jr's mind. And I'm arguing that Barty was not subsumed by LV's personae. He wanted Voldemort's world, he wanted free reign to feed his evil side. Voldemort was going to give him that.

So, was he a rabid follower? Sure. Was he evil-minded? You bet. But was it self-interest? I say yes. I say that he wanted what Voldemort stood for. Is that irrational? By definition, yes. But in Barty Jr's mind, no. And that's the fine line. He was making a rational decision to act irrationally, if that makes sense. In other words, he was not criminally insane, he was just criminally minded.

 
Mike, who thinks Barty Jr would not have gotten off on an insanity plea, at least not in the Muggle world. But, of course, that doesn't matter because the WW doesn't have that plea available to him.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 24 03:32:53 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 03:32:53 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat
Message-ID: <if1495+ijbf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189932

This message is a Special Notice for all members of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
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----------------------------------------------------------
CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Chapter 12: The Patronus.

 Harry and Ron are still angry with Hermione over her telling McGonagall about
the Firebolt. Wood wants to know if Harry has ordered a new broom yet and
whether he mastered a way to not fear Dementors. When Harry tells him
about Professor McGonagall wanting to strip the Firebolt down, Wood pales and
promises to talk to her.

Harry decides to talk to Professor Lupin about starting anti-Dementor lessons soon and he does. Lupin promises to start soon and they
do start.
Lupin brings a Boggart in for Harry to practice on and tells him that he would
be teaching Harry a very advanced magic, called the Patronus charm. Lupin
explains to Harry that when conjured correctly a Patronus is sort of
anti-dementor , a guardian that produces a shield between the caster and a
dementor.

Lupin also explains that in order to produce a successful Patronus Harry has
to think about a happy memory. After several painful attempts Harry manages to
think of a happy memory that allows him to conjure a Patronus even if fast
fading one. The memory is him leaving the Dursleys for Hogwarts. Professor
Lupin thinks that it is an excellent start. Harry wants to try again but Lupin
calls a stop and thinks it is enough for that day. Harry asks Lupin
whether he knew Sirius Black as well if he knew his dad and Lupin eventually
responds yes, he thought that he knew Sirius.

 The days are flying by and Ron is wondering how Hermione is getting to all her
classes, however Harry does not seem to really care. Wood is upset that
McGonagall dressed him down for asking her about the Firebolt because she
suggested he valued the Firebolt more than Harry's welfare. Days are flying
by, it is already February however she still refuses to give the Firebolt back
to Harry.

Harry is getting frustrated because after several lessons he can only produce
a misty Patronus, which Harry fears will not be enough to drive off
the Dementors. However Lupin tells him that he is too hard on himself and if
Dementors  did show up at the match it would be enough to
drive them off enough for Harry to get down on the ground. Harry is wondering
what is under a Dementor's hood and Professor Lupin explains that nobody knows
for sure because the only time they take the hood off is when they administer
the Dementor's kiss (sucking person's soul out of them). Harry thinks that
Sirius Black deserves it and Lupin is asking whether anybody really does deserve
such a fate.

McGonagall returns the Firebolt to Harry, which makes him and Ron very
happy. The chapter ends with the disappearance of Scabbers and it looks like
Crookshanks snacked on him.

Questions.

1. Harry learning how to produce a Patronus was one of the moments in the book
when I was so very proud of him. What are your "being proud of Harry"
moments?

 2. Why wasn't Harry's happy memory in this chapter enough to produce a
corporeal Patronus?
 3. If Dementor can suck a person's soul from them, does it mean that
Potterverse does not believe in souls' immortality? If a Dementor dies
somehow, would the soul be released? Lupin tells Harry that a soul is gone
forever, lost. Where is it lost in your opinion?

4. What is behind Lupin's asking Harry whether anybody deserves the
Dementor's kiss? Is he hesitant to believe in Sirius' guilt or he is simply not
a believer in such punishment? Any other suggestions?

5. Whose side you were on when Harry and Ron and Hermione were at odds if
anybody's?

6. Were you suspicious as to how Hermione is getting to all her classes at the
time?

7. Please feel free to add your own question.

Alla.

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33
Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 13 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you
would like to volunteer to lead a  Goblet of Fire chapter discussion, please
drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).

Merry Christmas to all who celebrates!





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Dec 24 19:56:13 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 19:56:13 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat
In-Reply-To: <if1495+ijbf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <if2tst+6qj5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189933


> 
> Questions.
> 
> 1. Harry learning how to produce a Patronus was one of the moments in the book
> when I was so very proud of him. What are your "being proud of Harry"
> moments?

Pippin:
I don't know that I feel possessive enough about Harry to be proud when he does well. But if I did, I think I'd be proud of him for recognizing that Sirius was telling the truth, and for standing up to Sirius and Lupin about Pettigrew. That's for this book. 

For the series, it would be naming his son "Albus Severus", refusing to take Slytherin hostages, and for refusing the Elder Wand even though Ron and Hermione wanted him to take it.

> 
>  2. Why wasn't Harry's happy memory in this chapter enough to produce a
> corporeal Patronus?

Pippin:
Because he still wanted to hear his parents' voices.


>  3. If Dementor can suck a person's soul from them, does it mean that
> Potterverse does not believe in souls' immortality? If a Dementor dies
> somehow, would the soul be released? Lupin tells Harry that a soul is gone
> forever, lost. Where is it lost in your opinion?
> 

Pippin:
It seems that Potterverse souls are immortal, in the sense that they do not age or die, but not indestructible. I suppose the lost soul is absorbed into the dementor that devoured it. Lupin says that if the dementor can, it will turn you into something like itself. Perhaps that is what he meant.

> 4. What is behind Lupin's asking Harry whether anybody deserves the
> Dementor's kiss? Is he hesitant to believe in Sirius' guilt or he is simply not
> a believer in such punishment? Any other suggestions?

Pippin:
Certainly he believed in Sirius's guilt. He accused Harry of wasting his parents' sacrifice by ignoring the threat of Black. He also said that he should have told Dumbledore what he knew about Black, and didn't because he assumed that Black was getting into the castle by using magic he'd learned from Voldemort.  That's not an assumption you'd make about someone you believed was  an innocent man. 

Lupin knows first hand what it's like to lose your humanity, to lose all human memory and sense of self. He took awful chances as a youth, but unlike Fenrir, he never deliberately tried to inflict his condition on anyone, no matter what they had done.

> 
> 5. Whose side you were on when Harry and Ron and Hermione were at odds if
> anybody's?

Pippin:
I didn't think anyone was wholly in the right. Hermione was wrong not to control her pet, and should have given Harry the opportunity to turn in the broom himself rather than telling on him. But Harry and Ron made too much of it. 

> 
> 6. Were you suspicious as to how Hermione is getting to all her classes at the
> time?
> 

Pippin:
I figured there was some magic involved, but I had no idea what it was.

> 7. Please feel free to add your own question.
Pippin:
Lupin mentions finding the boggart in Filch's file cabinet. Do you think Filch asked him to remove it or was Lupin snooping, perhaps hoping to find The Marauder's Map? 

Lupin was clearly covering up something about his relationship with Sirius and James. On your first reading of the story, did you trust  him at this point?

Pippin
thanking Alla for the questions and also  wishing a Merry Christmas to those who are celebrating




From Walabio at MacOSX.COM  Sat Dec 25 08:06:42 2010
From: Walabio at MacOSX.COM (?alabio?)
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 08:06:42 +0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter
In-Reply-To: <1293183784.954.18217.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1293183784.954.18217.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <2D254CCB-3499-43D3-B12A-DEC5E0425332@MacOSX.Com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189934

> 	3.	If Dementor can suck a person's soul from them, does it mean that Potterverse does not believe in souls' immortality? If a Dementor dies somehow, would the soul be released? Lupin tells Harry that a soul is gone forever, lost. Where is it lost in your opinion?

	This is interesting because we know from Deathly Hallows that physical actions cannot damage souls.  We know from the Half-Blood Prince that souls can be damaged nonphysically.  I noticed an hierarchy in the the Potterverse:

	0	Living people
	1	Souls.
	2	Horcruxes
	3	Ghosts
	4	Portraits
	5	Magical photographs

	If dementors can digest souls, perhaps a permanent afterlife does not exist in the wizarding world.  Perhaps everything is mortal and temporary.  As Georg Hrab says, ?Everything alive will by someday.?.  As Mark Twain points out, this may not be a bad thing:

	?I do not fear death.  I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.?

	??

	Mark Twain



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Dec 25 18:59:06 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 25 Dec 2010 18:59:06 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/26/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1293303546.483.42354.m16@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189935

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Dec 25 22:48:32 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:48:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter
In-Reply-To: <2D254CCB-3499-43D3-B12A-DEC5E0425332@MacOSX.Com>
Message-ID: <if5sc0+e60p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189936



 ?????alabio??? <Walabio at ...> wrote:
> 
> 	This is interesting because we know from Deathly Hallows that physical actions cannot damage souls.  We know from the Half-Blood Prince that souls can be damaged nonphysically.  I noticed an hierarchy in the the Potterverse:
> 
> 	0	Living people
> 	1	Souls.
> 	2	Horcruxes
> 	3	Ghosts
> 	4	Portraits
> 	5	Magical photographs
> 
> 	If dementors can digest souls, perhaps a permanent afterlife does not exist in the wizarding world.  

Potioncat:
Lupin was alive when he said the soul was sucked out of a person. but it's not clear what happens to the soul. Is it destroyed or does it go on to the Hereafter--and does it go intact, or damaged? I mention that Lupin was alive because I doubt if any living wizard would know the answer.

JKR was thinking of depression when she wrote the Dementors. She may have been thinking of those conditions in the real world that leave a person just a shell with all person-hood and awareness gone. That's what the Dementor's Kiss reminded me of. We know there is an afterlife in the WW, and that some souls do not arrive intact (the wimpering baby-like creature that was LV's soul.)

Your hierarchy is very interesting--personally, I'd switch the position of living people and souls. Snape seemed to think his soul was worth protecting more than his life was.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 25 23:35:24 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 23:35:24 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat
In-Reply-To: <if1495+ijbf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <if5v3s+dia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189937

 
> Questions.
> 
> 1. Harry learning how to produce a Patronus was one of the moments in the book
> when I was so very proud of him. What are your "being proud of Harry"
> moments?

Annemehr:

My very best ones are in GoF.  First it was the courageous and elegant way he captured the dragon's egg in the First Task, and then above everything it was the Priori Incantatem event in the graveyard.  Well, the whole graveyard confrontation, really.  And not because he won in a fight, but because of his fortitude in a hopeless situation and the way his best qualities saw him through.


>  3. If Dementor can suck a person's soul from them, does it mean that
> Potterverse does not believe in souls' immortality? If a Dementor dies
> somehow, would the soul be released? Lupin tells Harry that a soul is gone
> forever, lost. Where is it lost in your opinion?

Annemehr:

This whole Dementor's Kiss thing always felt weird to me.  

The way I read it, Lupin is supposed to be stating fact here.  I don't know how he would know, as I don't imagine even a ghost could know whether or not those souls have ever "gone on."

In the absence of any further explanation from JKR, my completely useless opinion is that the soul is destroyed inside the dementor as opposed to being trapped inside forever.

> 
> 4. What is behind Lupin's asking Harry whether anybody deserves the
> Dementor's kiss? Is he hesitant to believe in Sirius' guilt or he is simply not
> a believer in such punishment? Any other suggestions?
>

Annemehr:

I do think Lupin believes no one deserves that.

Again, it's strange to discuss.  In DH, Harry saw what became of his parents, but we have no real idea what living wizards know or believe in general.  But it would seem they know the Kiss is worse than death and so would be too harsh a punishment for murder -- and yet an official punishment it is, and Sirius was to receive it at the end of PoA.

So yeah, I think Lupin opposed it like many in RL oppose the death penalty, only this is even more extreme. 

> 5. Whose side you were on when Harry and Ron and Hermione were at odds if
> anybody's?

Annemehr:

My sympathies were with Ron, as Hermione seemed to have no empathy at all.

Thank you, Alla, these were really good questions.




From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Dec 26 03:21:51 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:21:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the
 Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter
In-Reply-To: <if5sc0+e60p@eGroups.com>
References: <if5sc0+e60p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D16B4CF.2020202@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189938

Potioncat:
> JKR was thinking of depression when she wrote the Dementors. She may have been thinking of those conditions in the real world that leave a person just a shell with all person-hood and awareness gone. That's what the Dementor's Kiss reminded me of. We know there is an afterlife in the WW, and that some souls do not arrive intact (the wimpering baby-like creature that was LV's soul.)

     Hmmmmm.... here are the possibilities as I see them:

     1) The Dementor's Kiss sends your soul to the afterlife, but leaves 
your body still alive. Not exactly a fate worse than death.

     2) The Dementor's Kiss entraps your soul inside the Dementor, so it 
can' t move on (at least while the Dementor is alive).

     3) The Dementor's Kiss takes away whatever allows your brain and 
your soul to communicate with each other. This would actually fit in 
well, and would, at least to most, appear that it is the actual soul 
they suck out, and would, indeed, be a fate worse than death. A 
variation on this is that it sends the soul to that area that Harry was 
in when he had his final conversation with DD, unable to move on until 
the body has died.

     In any case, it is reasonable to assume, especially from the 
conversations about Horcruxes and DD's statements, that even Wizards 
aren't entirely sure exactly what a soul is, although they have a better 
practical knowledge of what a soul DOES.

     Now, there is an esoteric belief related to reincarnation that the 
soul, while you are alive, has a permanent and an ephemeral part, the 
latter being what you think of as "you"; the more you connect the 
halves, the more of "you" goes on after you die (note that this make 
heaven and hell the same place).

     This also brings up the fact that even those who are merely 
suspected of crimes (like Hagrid in COS) may find themselves with a 
death sentence in the WW.

     Bart




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Dec 26 17:55:19 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 26 Dec 2010 17:55:19 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/26/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1293386119.457.39303.m11@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189939

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Dec 26 19:31:35 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 19:31:35 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat
In-Reply-To: <if5v3s+dia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <if856n+47p3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189940

Alla:
> >  3. If Dementor can suck a person's soul from them, does it mean that
> > Potterverse does not believe in souls' immortality? If a Dementor dies
> > somehow, would the soul be released? Lupin tells Harry that a soul is gone
> > forever, lost. Where is it lost in your opinion?
> 
> Annemehr:
> 
> This whole Dementor's Kiss thing always felt weird to me.  
> 
> The way I read it, Lupin is supposed to be stating fact here.  I don't know how he would know, as I don't imagine even a ghost could know whether or not those souls have ever "gone on."
> 

Pippin:
 Nick and Myrtle both  consciously chose their "pale imitation of life." Perhaps wizards have observed that those whose souls have been sucked out by dementors never reappear as ghosts.  That would be a practical reason for such a dire punishment--there'd be no chance of the criminal carrying on  as a ghost.

Perhaps wizards consider that  if a soul isn't capable of choosing to  leave an imprint as a ghost, it couldn't make the choice to go on either. Voldemort's mutilated baby of a soul seems to be in just such a condition at King's Cross. 

Pippin






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 26 20:56:39 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 20:56:39 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat
In-Reply-To: <if1495+ijbf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <if8a67+tao3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189941

----------------------------------------------------------
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> Chapter 12: The Patronus. <snip>

>  3. If Dementor can suck a person's soul from them, does it mean that Potterverse does not believe in souls' immortality? If a Dementor dies somehow, would the soul be released? Lupin tells Harry that a soul is gone forever, lost. Where is it lost in your opinion?

Carol responds:

What happens to a soul sucked out by a Dementor is unclear, either because Wizards themselves don't know or because JKR is somewhat vague and inconsistent (as she also is with regard to the fate of the soul-sucked person, which I'll return to in a moment).

I think that a soul in the Potterverse is immortal in the sense that it will go on to the afterlife unless it's destroyed--perhaps in severely damaged form for those few Wizards who have put half their souls into a Horcrux. (I think it was Pippin who said that Voldemort's soul is so severely damaged that he no longer has the ability to "go on" to whatever constitutes the afterlife for Wizards. (I won't even consider how an afterlife for Muggles, who can't become ghosts, fits in here.)

As we see with Voldemort and his Horcruxes, it's possible not only to damage the soul but to destroy it. Once parts of his soul have been removed from his body and placed in a Horcrux, they're dependent on the Horcrux for their existence. Destroy their container and you destroy them. Voldie's soul bits don't go to the bench at King's Cross to wait for him in hopes of being united with the mutilated baby and restored to wholeness if Voldemort repents. They don't hang around as bits of vapor. They simply cease to exist.

I think that something similar must happen to the souls sucked out by Dementors. Possibly, they become part of the evil essence of the Dementor; possibly, they just disappear and become Nothing. Either way, they cease to exist. There can be, as I understand it, no afterlife for the likes of Barty Crouch. Death for him is what Voldemort apparently feared for himself--the end of identity and existence.

As for the body of the soul-sucked person, which is still alive (at least for the time being), we have two versions--the person with his mind and heart still working but without his soul (and therefore his memories and sense of self and conscience) described by Lupin, which sounds like a Dementor in human form--or, perhaps, something like Voldemort, who was down to the last tiny fragment of a soul. If your mind, heart, and stomach are working, you can live (in the sense of subsisting) and eat and think in the sense of figuring out how to carry out your evil deeds (rather like Fenrir Greyback but with no sense of self) but you're no more yourself than an Inferi is.

The other description, which seems to fit Barty Crouch better, is the one depicted in the picture on Snape's DADA classroom wall: "a wizard lying huddled and blank-eyed, slumped against a wall" (HBP ch. 9). A person in that condition is essentially comatose and would probably starve to death unless kept alive by artificial means. Since we never hear about anyone fitting the first description, I think the second must be nearer the mark. The body isn't dead--yet--but it might as well be, and the person himself has no existence in this world or the next. A sad fate indeed.

Carol, who would really rather not think about such things




From fenneyml at gmail.com  Sun Dec 26 19:53:48 2010
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 14:53:48 -0500
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat
In-Reply-To: <if856n+47p3@eGroups.com>
References: <if5v3s+dia@eGroups.com>
	<if856n+47p3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin6UGGdcaX-6HBpONOFXsOGWNVBLyx2qFtD+xAb@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189942

> 2. Why wasn't Harry's happy memory in this chapter enough to 
> produce a corporeal Patronus?

bookcrazzzy:

The memory was based on a negative - his desire to leave the 
Dursleys.  He did not yet know what Hogwarts was or what it 
would come to mean to him and the "goodness" of the memory was 
in being relieved of an onerous home rather than a positive 
event.  There was no true joy, love or achievement in the memory.

> 3. If Dementor can suck a person's soul from them, does it mean 
> that Potterverse does not believe in souls' immortality? If a 
> Dementor dies somehow, would the soul be released? Lupin tells 
> Harry that a soul is gone forever, lost. Where is it lost in 
> your opinion?

bookcrazzzy:

JKR has said that Dementors are her expression of what she 
experienced when suffering from clinical depression so I think 
that the Dementor's kiss is what she sees as the end result of 
such depression if no relief is achieved and yet life goes on - 
a life without soul.  A depression of such breadth and depth 
that joy, caring, love, achievement and all else that is good 
in life is of no importance or relevance.  I don't think it is 
a matter of theology, at least in terms of what JKR was thinking 
when she developed this part of the story.  I have myself 
experienced clinical depression and it is as though you are 
literally unable to feel good feelings no matter what you do.  
It is no wonder and certainly no irrational that people who have 
been clinically depressed for some time wonder if life is worth 
living, given the seemingly low likelihood of relief.  It is 
similar in some ways to the first part of grieving for a very 
close loved one for those who have had that experience rather 
than clinical depression.  It is difficult to express but my 
past experience makes the Dementor's Kiss viscerally 
understandable.

Setting JKR's depression aside and looking at it theologically 
is interesting though.  Voldemort loses his body but is still 
"alive" and can lose additional bodies without losing life so 
long as a horcrux remains. What does the horcrux really do?  
Does it keep the soul alive or does it keep it in this world?  
In other words, is the horcrux making Voldemort "immortal" or 
is the soul immortal and the horcrux keeps the soul in the
material world?  I haven't any conclusion about this, just 
throwing out some more, hopefully relevant, fodder.

P.S.  This is my first post and I'm glad to be here.  I have 
enjoyed reading the posts.







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Dec 27 15:50:05 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 15:50:05 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat
In-Reply-To: <if8a67+tao3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ifacjd+ltmd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189943

 
> Carol responds:

> I think that a soul in the Potterverse is immortal in the sense that it will go on to the afterlife unless it's destroyed--perhaps in severely damaged form for those few Wizards who have put half their souls into a Horcrux. (I think it was Pippin who said that Voldemort's soul is so severely damaged that he no longer has the ability to "go on" to whatever constitutes the afterlife for Wizards. (I won't even consider how an afterlife for Muggles, who can't become ghosts, fits in here.)

Pippin:
According to Snape, the ghost is an "imprint" of the departed soul. It seems to be made of the same quasi-material silvery stuff that composes patronuses and extracted memories. To me, it sounds as if the wizard's actual soul may eventually "go on" -- but the ghost self never can.

 The Muggle can't leave an imprint of himself as a ghost, or trap part of his soul in a horcrux, but he still might have to make a positive choice in order to go on. 
Otherwise, he might continue in the sort of painful vaporish existence that Voldemort endured when he was disembodied, "less than the meanest ghost" but without the power to possess that Voldemort kept. Without that power, no one would have been aware that Voldemort still existed. So such a soul might well be called "lost."

Traditionally,  souls doomed to  hell are said to be  lost, so the idea that a soul can be lost is hardly incompatible with traditional ideas of the soul's immortality.

Carol:
> As for the body of the soul-sucked person, which is still alive (at least for the time being), we have two versions--the person with his mind and heart still working but without his soul (and therefore his memories and sense of self and conscience) described by Lupin, which sounds like a Dementor in human form--or, perhaps, something like Voldemort, who was down to the last tiny fragment of a soul. If your mind, heart, and stomach are working, you can live (in the sense of subsisting) and eat and think in the sense of figuring out how to carry out your evil deeds (rather like Fenrir Greyback but with no sense of self) but you're no more yourself than an Inferi is.

> 
> The other description, which seems to fit Barty Crouch better, is the one depicted in the picture on Snape's DADA classroom wall: "a wizard lying huddled and blank-eyed, slumped against a wall" (HBP ch. 9).

Pippin:
According to Lupin, it's the brain that's still working, not the mind. Higher brain functions, such as the sense of self, could be dependent on the presence of a soul, while reflexive actions  such as swallowing are not. 

Pippin

 




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Mon Dec 27 23:43:30 2010
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 15:43:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat
In-Reply-To: <if1495+ijbf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <551217.90182.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189944


> 1. Harry learning how to produce a Patronus was one of the
> moments in the book when I was so very proud of him. What
> are your "being proud of Harry" moments?

June:
I was proud of Harry for the way he made it through the years
of living with the Dursleys and for having the strength to go
back every year because I think living with them was more
stressful than any thing he had to do in the wizarding world.

> 2. Why wasn't Harry's happy memory in this chapter enough to
> produce a corporeal Patronus?

It wasn't the happiest memory he had (although a very good one)
and the patronus charm is so difficult even if he did use his
happiest memory it isn't likely that it would work the first
time.

> 3. If Dementor can suck a person's soul from them, does it
> mean that Potterverse does not believe in souls' immortality?
> If a Dementor dies somehow, would the soul be released? Lupin
> tells Harry that a soul is gone forever, lost. Where is it
> lost in your opinion?

I do not believe this means that in the Potterverse a soul is
not immortal, but that it would be forever in the dementor and
the person whose soul it is would just be souless for the rest
of his/her life. I think like in real life that some things
although we know about them there are aspects of them that we
do not know. When Lupin says that the soul is lost forever, that
that could not necessarily be true and if a dementor dies (if
one can die) then I believe the soul would be released. The soul
when sucked from its victim would be part of the dementor.

> 4. What is behind Lupin's asking Harry whether anybody
> deserves the Dementor's kiss? Is he hesitant to believe in
> Sirius' guilt or he is simply not a believer in such
> punishment? Any other suggestions?

I believe Lupin asked that because he does not believe that
anyone deserves to lose their soul and that he does not have
any doubt (at this point) that Sirius was guilty.

> 5. Whose side you were on when Harry and Ron and Hermione were
> at odds, if anybody's?

This is a hard one because on one hand Hermione should have been
watching Crookshanks closer since she knows he has been trying
to get Scabbers, but on the other hand Crookshanks was just
acting like a normal cat and maybe Ron should have kept a closer
eye on Scabbers to keep him safe from Crookshanks and even put
Scabbers in a cage to make it hard for him to wander around where
he could be in danger, but at the same time Ron did jump to
conclusions and Hermione was right that Crookshanks didn't eat
Scabbers so maybe she knew what she was talking about. But all in
all I was sure Crookshanks had done some thing to Scabbers but
thought the whole time that there was some thing funny about
Scabbers and there was more to those two than meets the eye.

> 6. Were you suspicious as to how Hermione is getting to all her
> classes at the time?

Yes, I believe everyone must have been.

> 7. Please feel free to add your own question.

Does anyone else think it took an awful long time to check that
broom for curses?

June