Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? (Really Long)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 189929

Mike:
Pardon me for chopping up you post. I wanted to put theme's of yours and those that you quoted from Elkins together.

> katherinemaurer:
> So, am I correct in saying that Barty "felt" like his father didn't
> love him, because he wasn't being loved. (This is where Sirius and
> several members of the public may have gone astray and thought that
> Crouch Sr. didn't care for his son.) Although, he did care for his
> son, as he was highly invested in him to become exactly like
> himself. He thought it was love, but it wasn't love. <snip>

> Add Elkins with: Message #47933 (about Crouch Sr. loving his son).
> 
> "I'm sure that Crouch believed that he loved his son," Elkins
> says. "I'm absolutely positive of that. I'm sure that he told
> himself that he was taking such pains to preserve his son's life
> not only to honor his wife's last wishes, but also because he truly
> and genuinely loved his son. But I'm not altogether convinced that
> Barty Crouch Sr. really understood the meaning of that word. I
> don't think that he really got that whole love concept any better
> than Voldemort does."

Mike:
I'm taking a long time getting back to you on this, school and work have a way of getting in the way. :) You wanted to know where I disagree with Elkins theories, so here they are, all in my opinion.

The reason Barty Jr "felt" like his father didn't love him was because his father didn't love him. It's not just that Barty Sr didn't comprehend what *love* is, he may or may not have. But Sr was too invested in his carreer as a politician and moving up the ladder in the WW to have time to impart love on his son so far away at Hogwarts. He can't spare the time, isn't that interested, and probably wouldn't know how to show love to a son if he was so inclined. Sure, he wanted his son to do well at Hogwarts, but that was more so he could tout his accomplishments with an understated "my son has recently gained twelve O.W.L.s, most satisfactory" (GoF, p.556). As if, well of course he gained twelve O.W.L.s, he is *my* son after all. There was no love in that pronouncement, only self-flattery.

And when Barty Jr gets caught with the Lestranges doing a number on the Longbottoms, Sr bellows loudly for the whole courtroom to hear, "I have no son!"(GoF, p.596). Except, everyone in that room knows that Jr is his son by birth. Barty Sr could have just sat down, consoled his wife. But no, he had to make that pronouncement for the whole WW to know he has disowned him. Somebody that, as Elkins said, "truly and genuinely loved his son," doesn't make that comment. But someone that merely has a son that exists to make him look better, has no trouble disowning his son when it looks like his son is doing the opposite. Barty Jr is simply a tool in Barty Sr's toolbelt, one that needs to be discarded when it stops working properly. That's not love for his son, that's utility.

Is there any chance that Barty Jr was not reading his father the same way that I'm reading him now? Not a chance, IMHO. Barty Jr is probably not only hard working, but he must be a bright and perceptive boy. Twelve O.W.L.s speaks to both. You can't get there being only smart and hard working. Magic takes perception, not just rote knowledge. Hermione is proof of that. She can't comprehend Divination because she has no inclination towards that subject. But she also can't deal with Trelawney. By virtue of his 12 O.W.L.s, Barty Jr must have figured out how to pass Divination, with whomever was teaching it.

Barty Jr must have known that his father didn't really love him, that he was merely a tool on his father's toolbelt. But what of his mother, you say? Surely his mother loved him, right? Sorry to burst that bubble on Elkins, but I doubt Mrs Crouch was much better than her husband in this department. She was allowed into the courtroom, no doubt an extrordinary priviledge to get to sit down front next to her husband. Does she plead for her son, does she protest in any way the judgement? No, she sits there quietly crying, playing her role for her huband's sake. Barty Sr has to look tough, so Mrs Crouch has to play the part of grieving mother for the family. That way they have all bases covered, sympathy for that family's plight and admiration for their fortitude will surely follow. IMHO, Mrs Crouch must be somewhat of a cold fish to remain married to Barty Sr. I think Barty Jr would have had almost as much luck wringing love out of his mother as he did his father.


> katherinemaurer:
> My theory as to why Barty Jr chose LV of all people to serve,
> (unlike someone like Ludo Bagman - Barty Jr was into Quidditch,
> he could have idolised him instead) was because in continuing to
> want to serve people like his father, he wanted to serve LV.

Mike:
This is one interpretation, and I'm not going to say you are wrong. Certainly Elkins takes this approach. But I take a different approach to Bary Jr's traveling the evil path. Hold that thought for a sec.


> katherinemaurer:
> Thematically, LV was the same as his father in their similar
> actions and ways of treating people/servants. LV, like Crouch Sr
> also inspired such great loyalty in his son, which added to LV's
> appeal.
> 
> What do you think about that? Do you think I'm right?
> 
> Also,  I'll show you some snippets of some of Elkins' posts
> relating to Barty Jr joining LV.
> 
> Message #47933 (about Crouch Sr. being thematically linked to LV).
> 
> "Voldemort presents as a father figure in the graveyard." she says
> again, very softly. "And he is strongly textually linked to Crouch
> Sr."

Mike:
I think it was more rebellion against that father figure that drove Barty Jr to Voldemort. I don't think Barty Jr needed or wanted another father figure. He had one of those and didn't exactly like him, thank you very much. He had had enough of trying to please people that weren't going to respond in kind. Growing up, I'm betting he received very little praise for his accomplishments, much schooling on the proper way to be, and quite a bit of chastising if he did not act properly.

Barty Jr had no doubt heard that Voldemort rewards his people, when they perform for him. That's something that he was not able to get from his parents. I don't think Barty Jr had any more loyalty left for his father, so moving on wasn't a problem. If he wasn't going to get something for all his hard work from a couple of unloving parents, he's ready to try his luck elsewhere. Here is one place where I agree with Elkins, the Crouches were most likely Slytherins. So Barty Jr will have a much different perspective on joining Voldemort than the Gryffindors' will.

And there's another thing about Barty Jr: he's a damn good actor. Did you see that show he put on for the court by begging and pleading to his father? Claiming he wasn't a part of the Longbottom torture, insinuation he was a victim of circumstance? In hindsight, we know he was a willing follower, probably as rabid as Bellatrix. But you couldn't detect that in that courtroom scene. In fact, I even got the feeling that the 3 co-defendants weren't sure that ole Barty Jr was with them 100% or not. And do I even need to mention the whole year he spent playing Moody right under Dumbledore's eyes?

Why is this important? Because in order to perform many of the spells, especially the unforgivables, you have to really mean it. You have to enjoy handing out pain, according to Bella. That tells me that Barty Jr had a strong mean streak in him, but that he was also able to hide that very well. If he takes up with Voldemort, he'll be able to feed those evil tendencies with impunity; in fact, he'll get rewarded for it. That's 2 positives in Barty Jr's eyes for joining up, now isn't it?

On to themes: Barty Jr's story actually supports 2 themes in my opinion. He is the reverse foil to Harry's story. Growing up in wealth and priviledge, with his parents, he's the boy that turns evil when everything seems to favor him. He chooses to make himself a "marked" man, marked with the Dark Mark. Like Harry, he has something evil inside of him. But unlike Harry, he has neither the will nor the desire to suppress his evil. Also, Barty Jr is a quitter. When things don't go his way with his parents, he quits society to join anarchy. When he gets caught with the Lestranges, he tries to quit the Death Eaters. When Voldemort's plan for Harry fails, he quits the plan and tries for an impromptu killing of Harry. Maybe he forgot after all those years, but Voldemort isn't likely to reward him for killing Harry, Voldemort had already said he wanted to kill Harry himself. One thing Harry is not, and that's a quitter.

Barty Jr is also linked to Draco's story. They have similar upbringings as far as surroundings are concerned, though their parents political leanings are different. But the big difference between Barty Jr and Draco is that Draco's parents love him. It's their love for Draco that probably save him. Both Draco and Barty Jr get involved with Voldemort at a young age. But Narcissa goes to Snape, a move that probably saves Draco's life. While Barty Jr, without parental love, no one to turn to when he needs it, loses everything.



> katherinemaurer:
> But some of Elkins' posts, I don't understand. Do you think
> that you would be able to shed some light on them?

Mike: 
I'll try, don't know if it will help though. These fall under the category of disagreeing with Elkins.


> Message #47927
> 
> "...but I'd say that her son took after her in a lot more ways
> than just physical frailty."
> 
> "He didn't get her strength of resolve, though," points out Eileen.
> 
> "No. He didn't get her strength of resolve. Either of his parents'
> strengths of resolve, really. But then, you know, when you have
> someone who is an only child, a talented only child, an only child
> of a wealthy family, whose parents are both immensely devoted to
> each other, both highly invested in their child's performance, and
> who are both made of pure steel?"
> 
> <snip>
> 
> "It's often difficult for people with that sort of upbringing to
> develop any normal sense of self-assertion," she says quietly.
> "Or of independence. Or of individuation. Or even of identity,
> really. <snip>
> 
> "The tendency to get caught up in fantasy," she whispers. "To
> allow oneself to become subsumed. Subsumed into other people's
> desires. Subsumed into other people's personae."

Mike:
I hope I left enough. :) 

I don't say Elkins is wrong, and she didn't have the benefit of HBP to help her interpretation. But I say look at Draco. Strong-willed parents for sure, yet parents that loved him. Draco doesn't have a problem with self-assertion. He knows what he wants and goes after it. I say Barty was the same, he knows he wants to feed his evil side and he knows he can get to do that with Voldemort. Barty is a very good actor, he hid that side of himself from everyone (that apparently included Elkins ;o).

Draco does join up with Voldemort, but I don't think it was to live a fantasy. He is sucked in like so many, including his parents, got sucked in with Voldemort. He assumes taking on a job for Voldemort will please his parents, but his naiveté gets in the way. Narcissa knows that Draco's job is not for rewards, it's to get him killed as punishment for Lucius. 

Likewise, I think Barty Jr wasn't joining Voldemort to feed a fantasy, not in his mind. Barty Jr thinks he's joining the eventual winning side, and there's every reason for him to believe that. Dumbledore says that Voldemort *was* winning around the time that Barty would have joined. Barty Jr purposly takes action that he knows won't please his parents, in contrast to Draco's thinking. I know it is many years later, but Barty Jr's actions in GoF bespeak of a man that very definitely has his own sense of self. We may look at his sense as warped, but consider his options; he hitched his wagon to Voldemort, knows he can't ever get out of that, and tries very hard to make that work out in his favor. His desires are his own, albeit his desires are to please Voldemort.

The question you have to ask is: what could Barty Jr do? Well, he could have not fought the Imperious curse of his father and remained a prisoner in his father's house, under the control of a man he despised. (I remind you that not a lot of people liked Barty Sr, either.) That, to me, would be the action of a weak-willed person. That's the person that Elkins paints.

Barty Jr's other choice is to break out of that prison and to rejoin Voldemort. Well, where else is he going to go? Like Wormtail, he has nowhere else to turn. Unlike Wormtail, he is an escaped prisoner of Azkaban. So Voldemort it is. He takes his chances that things will work out this time. See, that doesn't sound like a person subsumed into Voldemort's personae. That actually sounds like his most logical option. Now, like I said, this is many years later, after he joined up as a young man, a teenager. So he may have been a little more delusional back when he joined up.

But then I have one question for you: what about Snape? Completely different upbringing, just as bright if not smarter than Barty Jr, and still he joins up. No, sorry, not buying that young Severus was delusional. And not buying that young Barty Crouch Jr was delusional either. I think Barty Jr knew what he wanted and went for it, just like many his age had.

Two more quickies:

> Message #47931, Elkins speaking:
> 
> "If Crouch was anything," says Elkins. "I'd say that he was too
> interested in his son. Way too interested in him. Unhealthily
> interested in him. Over-involved. Over-identified. I do think that
> Crouch was a terrible parental influence, but not because he was
> disinterested. Because he was over-identified. And also because of
> the falsehoods that he projected about himself. Falsehoods that
> his son took far too seriously."

Mike:
I disagree completely. I think Crouch Sr was anything but interested in his son, other than what his son could do for him. I do agree that Sr projected falsehoods, but that Jr saw right through them and saw his father for who he was. I think by the time Crouch Jr reached his late teens, he no longer wanted to live in his father's world. He wanted to change that world and he saw Voldemort as the engine for that change.



> <snip>
> 
> Elkins shakes her head slowly. "I don't really think that I agree
> with that precisely," she says. "Not that I don't think that Crouch
> was a pretty tyrannical father, mind. I'm sure that he was. <snip>
> For one thing, I don't see why we should assume that Voldemort used
> the exact same seduction speech with all of his followers. Was
> Barty Jr. really a 'power and the will to seek it' sort of person,
> do you think? I don't think that's quite the way his mind worked.
> After all, he told us what his greatest ambition was, didn't he?
> He told us when he was under the veritaserum. He said that his
> greatest ambition was to serve. To serve, and to prove himself
> worthy of service. In other words," she says. "He wanted to be as
> truly devoted to the service of some cause as his father, the
> supposed public servant, merely pretended to be."

Mike:
Well, yeah, Barty Jr did say that he thought only of rejoining his Master, "of returning to his service." (GoF, p.685), once he was out of Azkaban. Does that mean he only wanted to serve? As I asked above, what were his options?



> <snip>
> "Do you remember what I was saying before, about Crouch's
> relationship with his son?"
> 
> "You said that you thought that it reiterated on the personal
> level his political relationship with the wizarding world,"
> 
> "Right. Well, the reason that parricide and tyrannicide are so
> closely conceptually linked is because fathers and leaders are
> closely conceptually linked. Crouch had very much the same effect
> on his public as he did on his son, I'd say. He told lies that
> people believed, and the lies that he told were really very bad
> for them. We keep being told about how fearful and paranoid
> everyone was during the war, don't we? Sirius mentions it. Hagrid
> mentions it. Well, how do you think that they got that way?"
> 
> "Because Voldemort and his DEs were conducting a war of terror?"
> 
> "In part. But also because they were being encouraged to react
> that way by their own leaders. Paranoia like that is never
> a one-way street."

Mike:
Not sure if this is the part you wanted help with, but here goes.

Elkins is saying that Barty Sr convinced the WW that the only way to defeat Voldemort was to fight fire with fire. They use the unforgivables, so we need to use the unforgivables against them. Elkins is claiming that Barty Sr must have lied about the threat in order to get permission to use those unforgivables. That Barty Sr pumped up the paranoia of Voldemort around the WW. Barty Sr must have used the incidents of DE attacks to convince everyone that they were next, unless he was granted more powers. It's a technique power-hungry people use to gain more power. Scare them more than they have to be scared and they'll do anything to let you save them from the threat. Of course, it's a slippery slope to go down.

Elkins is reading between the lines. I'm not saying she's right or wrong.

Mike, hoping I helped Katherine a little bit.