From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  1 02:47:27 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 02:47:27 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
Message-ID: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188786

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CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Chapter 5: The Whomping Willow.

School holidays are ending and as much as Harry looks forward to going to Hogwarts he does not want to leave the Burrow, he likes it so much. Arthur takes his kids and Harry to platform 9 ? in the magically enlarged Ford Anglia which he wants to make invisible, but Molly will not let him. Unfortunately Ron and Harry are not able to get through the entrance to 9 ?, when they try, they feel as if they hit a wall.

Well, since everybody else including their parents is already at the Platform, waiting to see the other Weasley kids off to Hogwarts, Ron gets the bright idea to fly to Hogwarts in the Ford Anglia, which their parents would not need to get home anyway.

So that's what they do. At first Harry thinks the ride is very cool, but after a few hours they are bored. But they do come to Hogwarts eventually, where they crash into the Whomping Willow, a tree that "hits them back" and very angry Snape meets and greets them. Snape tells the boys that he will get the people who have the happy power to expel them and brings Dumbledore and McGonagall. Harry and Ron are not expelled, but are given a detention. Snape does not look happy. In the meantime the boys are late for the Sorting. McGonagall informs them that Ginny is in Gryffindor as well.


1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?

2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?

3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?

4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?


5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?

6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?

7. Please feel free to add your own questions here.


NOTE: For
more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter
Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsdatabase?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 6, Gilderoy Lockhart, on February 7, 2010.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion,
please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).


Alla





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  1 02:52:51 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 02:52:51 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hk5fm3+4kb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188787



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> This message is a Special Notice for all members of
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
> 
> In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
> being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
> set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
> contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space)
> 
> HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
> Chapter 5: The Whomping Willow.
> 
><SNIP>


Alla:

Eh yes, that is me posting again. Zara, as always thank you so much and you rock again!

Um, yeah, that is all I have to say for now. 

Alla, the forgetful one.




From greatraven at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  1 07:08:46 2010
From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:08:46 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow
In-Reply-To: <e5e3bb891001251356w2d0727e6sc1695758874fbb0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hk5ulu+kjsb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188788



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Dean 
> 
> It also harks back to the folklore about brownies and similar
> creatures, who often take offense and leave if offered any sort of
> compensation apart from a bowl of milk.
> 
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean56 at ...>

Sue:

Or The Cobbler And The Elves, where the cobbler and his wife made clothes simply to thank the friendly elves who had helped their business get going again - but were not slaves, just - friendly. The elves took the clothes and went off happily.

There is a flavour of the brownie about it, though.
>





From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  1 13:24:41 2010
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 13:24:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hk6kmp+bvjp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188789

Zara:
Thank you, Alla, for an interesting set of discussion questions!

> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?

Zara:
I credit Molly. <bg>

> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?

Zara:
He's not afraid of her. 
 
> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?

Zara:
I had no idea it would matter again! But I did think it an amusing addition to the Hogwarts grounds.

> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?

Zara:
It can't. If I were to assume the implied premise of this question, I'd have to, post-DH, conclude that Snape was beside himself with worry and anger over Harry to have sought his expulsion in this scene, though he does not show the signs of that level of emotional upset in the scene.

Instead, what was confirmed for us in DH only affirms to me the view I have held since I joined this group around the publication of HBp. Namely, that Snape has never sought the expulsion of Harry.

> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?

Zara:
Snape did not use Legilimency in this scene, as I read it. Harry thought Snape could read minds, and immediately thereafter saw Snape was holding a newspaper in which Harry's exploit was described. So I think all Snape read in this case was a newspaper. <g>

> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?

Zara:
A rare and repulsive Potions ingredient.

Random question/thought...was Snape's office so cold because it was his habit to leave it so, with the fire out? Or does this indicate he had not been in the office for quite some time?






From jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com  Mon Feb  1 10:43:15 2010
From: jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com (jeanine5715)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 10:43:15 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hk6b83+f97l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188790

> 1. Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of
emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's
home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than
we were lead to believe?

jeanine5715:
I think this could be an issue which Molly has drummed into her children
for their own safety, bring the mother hen that she is. She would want
them to know that

  a) they can use magic if they really need to, and

  b) that unless there is real need, they must not do so


> 2. Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car
invisible or is he truly afraid of her?

jeanine5715:
I don't get the impression at any time that Arthur is afraid of Molly.
It has always seemed to me that she is very old-fashioned in her views
of the family and that in the final analysis she will always defer to
him.

>
> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect
for it to make another appearance in the series?

jeanine5715:
I certainly didn't expect its subsequent appearances to have the
significance that they did. I assumed this was just another minor
illustration of the magic at Hogwarts. Instead it was another example of
Jo's craft in  introducing an important item in the guise of a comedy
interlude.

> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be
reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw
him make in "The Prince's Tale"?

jeanine5715:
I wonder whether Snape feels such a burden of responsibility to his
promise to protect Harry that he has come to think that it would be
better for Harry to be out of the scene entirely, back home with the
Dursleys where he has the blood protection, and for Snape, Dumbledore
and the rest of the Order to continue their fight against Voldemort as
adults against adults. His promise was to Dumbledore but I wonder
whether he has come to regard it as more of a commitment to the memory
of his beloved Lily, to protect her son regardless, and he has now come
to realise the extreme danger that Harry is in, if her remains at
Hogwarts, almost as a pawn of the Order's fight against the Dark Lord.
While he has not yet learned of Dumbledore's intention to use Harry as a
sacrificial lamb i f need be, I think perhaps he has some sixth sense of
this and wants to protect Harry as much as possible. We see later in the
series that Snape is very protective towards the students when it really
counts, despite his grumpy manner to them in class.

> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression
of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was
absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed
could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he
says?

jeanine5715:
The Legilimency, if it was practised on that occasion, would also have
told him that Harry was easily led by Ron.Perhaps this made him believe
that for Harry's own safety, and with reference above to my comments on
his promise to the memory of Lily, he thought it would be better if
Harry, a potential loose cannon, was out of the picture completely.

> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in
green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?
>

Pickled gherkin. Why not?


jeanine5715



From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  1 20:46:16 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:46:16 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hk7eio+1gj0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188791

 
> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?

Annemehr:
I think I'd like to credit Fred and George, who would doubtless take pains to know every possible loophole and excuse to use magic while underage.  A bit like their father that way.

> 
> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?

Annemehr:
Neither.  He'd like to make it invisible for fun, but not if it's going to upset her.  Because he likes her.

> 
> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?

Annemehr:
I think I was mostly worried about the car.

> 
> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?

Annemehr:
I never figured that out, really.  At this point in the story, Harry is at Hogwarts because Dumbledore wants him there, and Harry will not be leaving Hogwarts unless DD wants him out, no matter what Snape or anyone says.  Now, this changes somewhat by OoP when the Ministry goes hostile and starts interfering.  Even though Harry (and DD) were entirely in the right, obviously it still took quite some effort on DD's part to get Harry through that hearing and back to school.  So I just have to think that Snape knows just how high the stakes are and is trying to impress a sense of this on Harry.

 
> 
> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?

Annemehr:
Snape wasn't angry at them for not going through the barrier; he was angry because they flew the car -- and were seen by Muggles.  That's really serious and could draw the Ministry in.  And as McGonagall points out a few minutes later, they had an owl, and they didn't think.  They didn't fly the car because they had to, but because they wanted to.

Yes, so did Fred and George.  But they did it with more finesse; I'm sure they took care to know what they were doing first, and they weren't seen.  Also, they didn't get caught, and they aren't Harry Potter.


Annemehr





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Feb  1 21:48:54 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:48:54 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hk7i86+er94@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188792



> 
> Alla
>
> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?
Potioncat:
Well, not exactly. He sort of cites part of the name of the ruling. I think he knew, like most magical kids would, that there was an exception for using magic under special circumstances without really knowing the law.

> 
> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?
Potioncat:
Molly's right, you know. Arthur would be breaking the law, and with the whole family in tow. What would happen to the Weasleys if Arthur was sent to Azkaban? We didn't know then, but do know now that powerful people don't like him. Can you imagine the influence Malfoy would exert on the outcome if Arthur had been caught? But that wasn't your question. 

I like Arthur and Molly, and I don't see him as hen pecked. I think we see times later when he's the one who draws the line--they have their own spheres of influence within the relationship. 

IMHO, Arthur wants to be as wild as the twins and Molly has to be the restraining influence. But there's nothing subtle in this family, it's all bigger than life.  Now that we're reviewing the series, I've come to realize where the twins get their mischievous streak.

I tried to picture this conversation from the other view. What if Arthur had said he was going to use the invisibility button and it was Molly pleading for him not to. In that case it looks like the meek little wife having to follow her husband's lead. So JKR has written a strong woman here. Although to many readers she comes across as shrewish.


> 
> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?

Potioncat: 
Might I say the Whomping Willow is a more impressive character in the book than in TMTMNBN(yet).

I don't think it was obvious yet that certain characters or storylines would repeat. So I doubt if I gave it a thought. What's cool is that once we did know that JKR might bring something back later, we tended to give too much importance to the wrong ones?like gum wrappers and turbans.


> 
> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?

Potioncat:
Of all the things I waffle about, this is the main one. Did Snape really expect/hope to have Harry expelled? Either Snape was still developing his role in protecting Harry, or he thought Harry would be safer out of Hogwarts and the WW or he was just making Harry feel worse while knowing Harry wouldn't be expelled. DD though, does make it clear that expulsion is clearly a consequence that Harry could face.  And when I say he was trying to make Harry feel worse,  I mean he wanted the full impact to hit Harry.
> 
> 
> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?

Potioncat:
Later in the series, Snape's Legilimency is more clearly implied. At this reading, I get the idea that Harry thinks Snape has read their minds, but then sees that Snape actually read the Daily Prophet. By the end of the chapter we'll see that all of Gryffindor knows about the car and treat Harry and Ron as heroes. I think JKR is setting us up to wonder if Snape does have this ability and has us ready to accept it later. 

I don't think he used Legilimency this time. In a few years he will tell Harry that Legilimency is not like reading a book. It seems to me that Snape gets visual impressions of events, possibly some emotional recall. On the trip to Hogwarts Harry did have several thoughts/feeling of how cool it was to arrive by flying car, and when they crash the description is that it wasn't the triumphant entrance he expected.  Therefore, if Snape did use Legilimency, he may have seen just what he expected to---that Harry was expecting to impress the students with his arrival. 


> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?

> Potioncat:
I don't want to know, but I wonder if it could be found in FBAWTFT? 

I'm not sure if Snape has set his office up to be intimidating or if this is just the standard workroom of a serious potion brewer.  Nurses, doctors, researchers aren't bothered at all by things that make other people squeamish.  

Thanks Alla, for great questions.

And the question from Zara:
> Zara:
> Random question/thought...was Snape's office so cold because it was his habit to leave it so, with the fire out? Or does this indicate he had not been in the office for quite some time?

Potioncat:
The fire really jumped out at me this time. I thought it was amusing that Minerva's first act was to light the fire. In a  way that was a bit presumptive of her, but it improves the tone a bit?even though Ron and Harry are too scared to notice it. 

Good question?it's likely Snape was out looking for Harry's arrival and may have been for some time. All the more reason for him to be in such a bad mood.





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb  1 23:23:47 2010
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:23:47 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hk7nq3+vcan@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188793

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
> Chapter 5: The Whomping Willow.

> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?

Geoff:
His quoting is rather vague - "section nineteen or something of the 
Restriction of Thingy" suggests that he has heard it somewhere but 
not really taken it all in. Maybe Arthur in conversation with another 
member of the family?
 
> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?

I think that he is afraid to an extent; his earlier reaction when the 
twins are talking bout the journey from Little Whining suggests this.

I fear that I am not a great Molly fan. I believe her to be always 
wanting to be the final arbiter in matters. Looking forward into 
OOTP, I disliked her attempts to prevent Harry from finding out 
more about the Order because he was too young and needed to 
be protected when he, of all people. had a right to know. I see her 
as wanting to guard her family from "the slings and arrows of 
outrageous fortune" but that does not excuse her being a control 
freak.

> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?

Not really. Just another quirky part of JKR's universe.

> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?

I think, in hindsight, that he was merely trying to frighten the boys 
and make them realise that, in his view, what had happened was not 
a great lark, but something quite serious.

> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?

I think other folk have commented that he had a copy of the 
"Evening Prophet" in his possession.

> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?

I have never stopped to consider what it was.




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Feb  1 23:42:30 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:42:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch.
 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk7nq3+vcan@eGroups.com>
References: <hk7nq3+vcan@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B6766E6.1010608@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188794

Geoff wrote:
>> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?
>>     
>
> I have never stopped to consider what it was.

Bart:
    Neither have I, but I also never considered where he got his hair 
tonic. Maybe now we know.

    Bart


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb  2 00:11:49 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 00:11:49 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hk7qk5+jbu6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188795


> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?

PIppin:
As has been pointed out, Ron doesn't actually know the details. Since Arthur is behind the Muggle Protection Act, he's surely discussed the law and its loopholes at home many times. 
> 
> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?

Pippin:
I don't think he's afraid of her. He, unlike Ron and Harry,  knows perfectly well that missing the train would not be an excuse for using magic. And he probably also knows that the invisibility booster is unreliable. If he didn't know it was a bad idea, he'd have just done it without asking for Molly's permission, which, IMO, he knows very well he won't get.

I think he's teasing her a little. 
 
> 
> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?
> 
Pippin:
I thought it was just another quirky Hogwarts feature, like moving staircases or talking portraits. But considering Fluffy, perhaps I should have guessed that it was guarding something. 

> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?

Pippin:
Are you sure it's Harry Snape would like to expel? The dialogue has Snape mostly replying  to Ron. Snape doubtless thinks that if Weasley got expelled, Harry would get into trouble less often. That could account for his "Christmas had been cancelled" expression when the boys are let off. 

 Of course Snape knew perfectly well that Harry was not going to be expelled unless he did something so drastic that Dumbledore's hands would be tied. But that's a possibility -- look at what happened to Hagrid. Dumbledore himself says much the same thing.

 As others have said, I think Snape wants to impress on both boys that they have landed themselves in very serious trouble and it could have been a lot worse.  

> 
> 
> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?

Pippin:
He said that he was waiting to hear why they hadn't arrived on the train, and then, characteristically, silenced them when they tried to explain. Possibly, having extracted the answer to his question via legillimency, he had no need or interest in hearing what they had to say. McGonagall didn't think not being able to get through the barrier was a good excuse either. 

Snape's legillimency is a much more useful talent if people don't know that he can do it, and of course JKR isn't yet ready to reveal that Snape really can read minds. 

> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?

Pippin:
The shelves are lined with jars in which floated "all manner of revolting things Harry didn't really want to know the name of at the moment." I have no idea what this one  was, but the jars do  bring in the association between Slytherins and liquids. We know there's cockroaches in one of them <g>.

> 
> 7. Please feel free to add your own questions here.

Pippin:
Not really a question, but I think McGonagall lit the fire because she's an old lady and cold rooms make her bones ache. IOW, for her own comfort, not Harry's. She was still very angry at that point.

Pippin





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  2 19:52:55 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:52:55 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 4, At Flourish and Blotts
In-Reply-To: <hjup50+8usu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hk9vqn+53oj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188796

> Potioncat:
> By the same token, Hagrid values blood. In a few years he'll meet a brother he never knew about and because they are of the same blood, he'll bring Grawp home--a more loving parallel to Petunia and Harry. 

Montavilla47:

I never thought to parallel Hagrid and Grawp to Petunia and Harry!  
I think it's funny (as in "humorous," not as in "strange") to think about
this in the book where Harry is most restrained by the Dursleys, since
Hagrid was tying his brother to trees all the time. :)







From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  2 20:04:57 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:04:57 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hka0h9+9nau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188797

Thank you, Alla for the recap and questions.

> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?

Montavilla47:
This is one of those times (which happened less and less frequently
as the series went on), when Ron's being raised in the Wizarding 
World shows to his advantage.

> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?

Montavilla47:
I think he's meant to be comically afraid of her.  That is, she's
not secretly whipping him or beating him up.  She's got a strong
personality and he's the kind of husband who doesn't like to cross
his wife.

Also, that invisibility thing doesn't work quite right and by giving in
to Molly, he avoids the embarassment of having it fail right in the 
middle of the London.

> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?

Montavilla47:
I thought it was a cool idea.  I also thought it was funny that Snape
was more concerned about the tree than about the kids.  I had no 
idea it would become important 
later.
> 
> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?
> 

Montavilla47:
You got me there.  I can wank it that Snape thinks Harry is better
off under the blood protection of the Durleys' than at Hogwarts.  Or
I can theorize that Snape knew that Lucius was up to "something" that
year (maybe Dobby warned him and Dumbledore), and wanted Harry
to be well away from any fallout.

But there's no obvious reason for Snape to be taking this attitude, 
unless he's mostly bluffing and playing "bad cop," since he knows 
that McGonagall and Dumbledore prefer to take the "good cop" roles.


> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?

Montavilla47:
Either he's not using full strength Legilimancy (just checking to see
if they are lying), or he's playing "bad cop."  See above.


> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?

The last kid who cheated on his potions final.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  3 01:50:10 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:50:10 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hka0h9+9nau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkakoi+hl12@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188798



> > 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?
> > 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> You got me there.  I can wank it that Snape thinks Harry is better
> off under the blood protection of the Durleys' than at Hogwarts.  Or
> I can theorize that Snape knew that Lucius was up to "something" that
> year (maybe Dobby warned him and Dumbledore), and wanted Harry
> to be well away from any fallout.
> 
> But there's no obvious reason for Snape to be taking this attitude, 
> unless he's mostly bluffing and playing "bad cop," since he knows 
> that McGonagall and Dumbledore prefer to take the "good cop" roles.
> 

I am replying to your comments, but this is also a reply to the thread in general. This question is actually something that really bothers me as in I cannot figure this out still. As Zara knows I really struggled with the wording of this question, because I thought it would be rude to say ? please only answer the question if you indeed believe that Snape wanted to expel Harry. But that's what my dilemma is, I am someone who in good faith believes that Snape wanted to expel Harry and at the same time I am scratching my head trying to figure out how the hell he was going to fulfill the promise to protect Harry away from Hogwarts.

Because as I am sure you know I do not believe that book showed us that Snape felt anything but hatred towards Harry till the day he died, I do not think we were showed any reversal in that, and as part of it, I cannot find any canon showing that Snape only pretended wanting to expel him. Of course we were shown something that we have not seen that not only Snape hated Harry (I know not everybody believes it, goes without saying that I am describing my interpretation), but also that he promised and tried to protect his life. But that is where my question comes from.

The only idea I come with is that Snape hoped that if he can make sure that Harry is expelled then he can get out of his promise to Dumbledore to protect him (again, goes without saying that I am speculating here and have no canon to support it). But then I am thinking ? um, Dumbledore could have just as easily order Snape to follow Harry into muggle world or other wizarding school or something to make good on his promise, so that does not fly either. See my problem?

Pippin:
Are you sure it's Harry Snape would like to expel? The dialogue has Snape mostly
replying to Ron. Snape doubtless thinks that if Weasley got expelled, Harry
would get into trouble less often. That could account for his "Christmas had
been cancelled" expression when the boys are let off.

Alla:

Yes, I understand that he was silencing Ron, but I never doubted that he was referring to both of them and when Snape he complains to Dumbledore  he says "Professor Dumbledore, these boys" plural, so yes I think he wanted them both out if he could help it.

Pippin:
Of course Snape knew perfectly well that Harry was not going to be expelled
unless he did something so drastic that Dumbledore's hands would be tied. But
that's a possibility -- look at what happened to Hagrid. Dumbledore himself says
much the same thing.

Alla:

Right, but precisely because the possibility may come up when Dumbledore's hands are tied, I think Snape keeps pushing for it every chance he gets, only I wish I could figure out why  he did that in light of what we know after DH.


JMO,

Alla





From kapala_43 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  1 13:28:28 2010
From: kapala_43 at yahoo.com (donna poissant)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 05:28:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
References: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <868996.60812.qm@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188799

If you read the last book you'd know that Snape is going the other way to protect Harry who'd have been his Son as Snape was in LOVE with Lily Harry's mother. But with no money or Family he didn't have a chance. His home too was Hogwarts.
Dona




From danjerri at madisoncounty.net  Wed Feb  3 03:05:31 2010
From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (jerrichase)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 03:05:31 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hka0h9+9nau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkap5r+l30r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188800

Alla's question:
> > 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I thought it was a cool idea.  I also thought it was funny that Snape
> was more concerned about the tree than about the kids.  I had no 
> idea it would become important later.

For some reason this discussion just made me realise, perhaps one reason that Snape was so upset is that he knew better than most that the Whomping Willow was put there to guard something!  The incounter that Harry and Ron had with this plant may well have brought his memories of "the prank" fully to the top of his mind, thus making him more emotional than normal.

I never thought that Snape seriously tried to get Harry expelled.  Even when I wasn't sure which side he was on, I felt he knew Dumbledore too well, and was certain that DD would always do everything in  his power to keep Harry at Hogwarts.  His making comments that sound like wanting to get Harry expelled were either to make Harry afraid/upset or to put memories of his actions into his mind that he could show to Lord Voldemort to demonstrate how much he disliked Harry or BOTH.  But, he knew his position in the pecking order.  He couldn't get Harry expelled as long as DD wanted him kept in school.

In fact the one time that Harry does something that may well have been worthy of being expelled, or at least suspended (his attack on Draco in the bathroom in HBP) is the one time that Snape never mentions expelling him!  Detentions that keep him from playing Quidditch, but not kicked out of school.  

If Snape had really wanted Harry out of Hogwarts, why didn't he suggest it when Harry had actually attacked someone in a way that could well have caused death?  Yes, it was selfdefense of a sort, but it would have been difficult for Harry to prove that.

Jerri




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  3 03:19:29 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 03:19:29 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkap5r+l30r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkaq01+64t8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188801



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jerrichase" <danjerri at ...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> If Snape had really wanted Harry out of Hogwarts, why didn't he suggest it when Harry had actually attacked someone in a way that could well have caused death?  Yes, it was selfdefense of a sort, but it would have been difficult for Harry to prove that.


Alla:

I would argue because he had no chance to pull this off. All Dumbledore needed to do was to legilimence the participants and find out that it was indeed self defense, or at least this is how I interpret hitting back somebody who attacks you with deadly curse. Yes, I know Harry could have used lesser curse, no to me that does not change the fact that Draco attacked him first with bad curse too.

And I would also say that Snape did not try that because if Snape makes the accusation, Dumbledore hands could have been tied too, but in a different way. I would think that he would have no choice but to expel Draco  together with Harry, and that was something that Snape did not want.

JMO of course.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  3 03:46:09 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 03:46:09 -0000
Subject: Arthur and Molly WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5.
In-Reply-To: <hk7nq3+vcan@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkari1+c45v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188802


>
> 2. Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or
is he truly afraid of her?
Potioncat:
Molly's right, you know. Arthur would be breaking the law, and with the whole
family in tow. What would happen to the Weasleys if Arthur was sent to Azkaban?
We didn't know then, but do know now that powerful people don't like him. Can
you imagine the influence Malfoy would exert on the outcome if Arthur had been
caught? But that wasn't your question.

Alla:

Heeee, right that was not one and eh, you do not have to convince me that she is correct here.


Potioncat:
I like Arthur and Molly, and I don't see him as hen pecked. I think we see times
later when he's the one who draws the line--they have their own spheres of
influence within the relationship.

Alla:

Right, but I do not think it is seen as clear in the earlier books. But no, I do not think somebody who calls his wife Mollywobbles is afraid of her in any way.


Potioncat:
 I tried to picture this conversation from the other view. What if Arthur had
said he was going to use the invisibility button and it was Molly pleading for
him not to. In that case it looks like the meek little wife having to follow her
husband's lead.

Alla:

Am confused, isn't this what happened? Oh, I see you mean that instead of forbidding Molly would be pleading? Or you meant to switch their names around?

Potioncat:
 So JKR has written a strong woman here. Although to many readers
she comes across as shrewish.

Alla:

Yes and yes, she does to me.

Geoff:
<SNIP>
I fear that I am not a great Molly fan. I believe her to be always
wanting to be the final arbiter in matters. Looking forward into
OOTP, I disliked her attempts to prevent Harry from finding out
more about the Order because he was too young and needed to
be protected when he, of all people. had a right to know. I see her
as wanting to guard her family from "the slings and arrows of
outrageous fortune" but that does not excuse her being a control
freak.

Alla:

I am afraid I am not a great Molly fan either and yes, I will never forgive her conduct towards Sirius in OOP. Yes, I know she loves Harry a great deal, but to me here her love becomes extremely selfish, she should have realized that Sirius was Harry's only chance at having a father figure IMO and be more merciful to him. That is just my opinion of course and opinion of somebody who loves Sirius' and Harry's characters the most in the series, however this is also my honest interpretation of canon, even if I was not the fan of Sirius and Harry.

However, having said that, to go back to Molly and her family, more and more I came to think that Molly's family DOES consist of her fans. See above why I cannot buy anymore that Arthur is afraid of Molly.

I also never bought the idea that Charlie and Bill moved away to move away from Molly lol. Last time I checked their jobs were pretty exotic and required extensive traveling and they both seemed to love their jobs a lot.

And we also see twins show appreciation for Molly in OOP when they moved away from home.

JMO,

Alla






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb  3 14:30:36 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:30:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkakoi+hl12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkc1ac+ofre@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188803



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> 
> Because as I am sure you know I do not believe that book showed us that Snape felt anything but hatred towards Harry till the day he died, I do not think we were showed any reversal in that, and as part of it, I cannot find any canon showing that Snape only pretended wanting to expel him.

Pippin:
Besides Jerri's example from HBP, there's also the Trio's attack on Snape in PoA, where Snape claims the Trio were confunded and couldn't have known what they were doing. Then he   says that any other student would be suspended, at least, just for having led his friends into danger and complains about the amount of special treatment  Harry gets. Of course, Snape himself is part of the special treatment for Harry, but Fudge isn't to know that. So Snape is definitely play-acting. 

There are other times when Snape utters threats and doesn't carry through on them. He doesn't turn Sirius over to the Dementors or spike Harry's pumpkin juice with veritaserum. According to Bella, he's always saying he'll do things and slithering out of action. Even she knows Snape's actions speak louder than his words. 

Snape has agreed to help Dumbledore protect Harry. They both know that. No matter how fiercely he argues for Harry's expulsion,  Snape knows that Dumbledore knows he doesn't really want Harry expelled and isn't going to take him seriously. Snape claiming that Harry doesn't deserve to be at Hogwarts is part of the cover story he and Dumbledore are concocting for Voldemort: that Snape has not tried to harm Harry because he believes Harry is an inferior wizard who couldn't possibly be a threat to the Dark Lord. 

Would Snape have liked to see Harry suspended for a while, or better yet, on his knees, pleading to stay at Hogwarts?  Of course! Subconsciously, IMO, Snape wants to make Harry feel the way that James made him feel: frightened, humiliated and hopelessly inferior. And he never misses a chance to do that. But he never presses for Harry to be expelled when there's the slightest chance of it actually happening. 

Consciously,  Snape doesn't want Harry to know that he's protecting him, so any time that he is taking actions for Harry's safety, he has to make it look as if he's doing it for some other reason. But it's necessary for Harry to understand that he could be expelled in order to make sure he doesn't do things that would force Dumbledore to expel him.

 Probably Snape would have liked to see Ron expelled and Harry suspended. But since he has to pretend that there's no special treatment for Harry from him, he can only ask for them both to be expelled, knowing full well that Dumbledore isn't going to do it. 

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  3 14:50:45 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:50:45 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkc1ac+ofre@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkc2g5+svl4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188804




Pippin:
Besides Jerri's example from HBP, there's also the Trio's attack on Snape in
PoA, where Snape claims the Trio were confunded and couldn't have known what
they were doing. Then he says that any other student would be suspended, at
least, just for having led his friends into danger and complains about the
amount of special treatment Harry gets. Of course, Snape himself is part of the
special treatment for Harry, but Fudge isn't to know that. So Snape is
definitely play-acting.

Alla:

While I disagree with Jerri's argument, I understand the example she brought up, Snape there does not bring up expulsion. Here as you said it yourself Snape says that any other student would be suspended, so to me this example is not relevant, whether very strongly or not, Snape does bring up the idea and I thought he says that kids were confunded when they start to advocate for Sirius, not to argue that they should not be expelled lol.

Pippin:
There are other times when Snape utters threats and doesn't carry through on
them.

Alla:

Maybe. The amounts of those times is definitely a matter of opinion though and I am talking specifically about Snape wanting Harry to be expelled (or not). I do not view it as a threat even, more like Snape's fond desire IMO.

Pippin:
 He doesn't turn Sirius over to the Dementors or spike Harry's pumpkin
juice with veritaserum.

Alla:

Not turning Sirius over to the Dementors is definitely matter of opinion. To me that is exactly what he did, but again I do not see how it is relevant here.

Pippin:
According to Bella, he's always saying he'll do things
and slithering out of action. Even she knows Snape's actions speak louder than
his words.

Alla:

I thought we are taking Voldemort and DE's words as suspect more often than not. So Bella is reliable witness now? But even if she is, again to me it is not very relevant. I am not talking about Snape's actions v Snape's words. I am not disputing that Snape himself has no power to expel Harry in fact that is exactly what he says and I believe him. My initial point was that I am convinced that Snape himself **wants** Harry expelled and thus could not reconcile his protection of Harry. It is not that I am closed to the arguments that Snape does not want Harry expelled, I just so far found them unconvincing.

Pippin:
Would Snape have liked to see Harry suspended for a while, or better yet, on his
knees, pleading to stay at Hogwarts? Of course! Subconsciously, IMO, Snape
wants to make Harry feel the way that James made him feel: frightened,
humiliated and hopelessly inferior. And he never misses a chance to do that.
Alla:

I think you are weakening your argument here. It is really not a long road to travel from what you describe to what I think Snape wants IMO.

Pippin:
 But
he never presses for Harry to be expelled when there's the slightest chance of
it actually happening. <SNIP>

Alla:

Never is once as far as I am concerned (fight in the bathroom) and IMO if Draco did not have to be expelled Snape would have done exactly that.

JMO,

Alla






From sailorlum at sailorlum.com  Wed Feb  3 06:41:32 2010
From: sailorlum at sailorlum.com (garqueen)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:41:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkakoi+hl12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkb5qs+s3m2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188805

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

*delurks* Hello, nice to meet you all. Thought I'd jump in, here. ;)

> 
> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?
> 

I think Molly taught him what underage wizards are and are not allowed to do as part of her home schooling.

> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?
> 

Neither. I don't think Arthur is truly afraid of her or is just placating her. Arthur may think it will go fine, but Molly feels very strongly that it won't, and that it isn't worth the risk in broad daylight. So Arthur is differing to her out of consideration of her feelings and to err on the side of caution. I think a part of him likes that she keeps him somewhat grounded.

> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?
> 

I loved the Whomping Willow! I thought it added a touch of dangerous whimsy to the grounds of Hogwarts. It's such a nifty thing, that I wasn't surprised to see it make another appearance. I didn't suspect it would play quite such an important role (or contain such secrets), but I wasn't really surprised. It does seem much more ominous now, though, after all that has happened. 

> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?
>

I personally don't believe Snape really wanted Harry expelled, in light of him being dedicated to protecting him (and despite his hatred of him). In 'The Prince's Tale' Snape says that "Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter's son safe." I think that statement is the evidence of Snape not really wanting Harry expelled. To get Harry expelled would go against Dumbledore's plan, and likely put Harry in danger since he wouldn't be getting the wizarding training that he would need to defend himself. So, I personally don't see how Snape (being a clever man) would seriously ever want Harry expelled. I think he would really *like* to to expel Harry, but realizes that he must not.

However... If you believe that Snape wanted Harry expelled, regardless... I can only think that Snape's desire to expel Harry was sincere only in the heat of the moment. He lost his temper and wanted the boys out, despite it being contrary to his promise and desire to protect Harry's life.

Personally, I think that Snape just threatened expulsion for these reasons: 
1) to impress the seriousness of the situation on them, and hopefully scare them straight
2) out of petty and vengeful spite, to scare them and stick it to them for being daredevil rule breakers, from his [Snape's] POV (like James and Sirius were)
3) to vent his anger at them for insulting him (when they said that they hoped Snape had left or was sacked and that everyone hates him...that last bit had to hurt a little)

So, one part altruistic and two parts petty, LOL.

> 
> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?
> 

In this instance, I think Snape didn't care about why they took the car, just that they took it and were seen (and were reckless). Harry and Ron could have done something other than take the car (like send an owl, and wait, perhaps). 

Harry thought Snape was "reading his mind" about the car, not the reason for his taking it, anyway. Even if Snape was using Legilimency in this particular instance (he could have been: even though Snape had seen the newspaper article and knew about the car ahead of time, he could have Legilimensed Harry in addition), reading minds isn't like reading pages from a book, so Snape may only have gotten flashes of the truth and not the complete story from Harry's mind. IMO. 

> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?
> 

Dead magical critter (preserved a la Formaldehyde, or perhaps pickled for potion use). Snape seems a bit like Grissom (from CSI) in that he likes to collect various specimens for his office. Likely some things are also potions ingredients (maybe all of them). Perhaps Snape even has a few experiments or homemade/homegrown supplies "aging" in some of the jars. Either way, Snape probably sees the fact that they intimidate and creep the bejesus out of most people, as a positive side benefit.

- Sailor Lum




From intooblivion at hotmail.co.uk  Wed Feb  3 13:46:30 2010
From: intooblivion at hotmail.co.uk (intooblivion@ymail.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:46:30 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkbunm+i70g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188806

> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?
> 
IntoOblivion:
As I think someone else mentioned, my immediate perception of this was that it was something Ron had learnt from the twins. I can so easily imagine them quoting chapter and verse back at Molly to try and claim they shouldn't be punished for a use of underage magic, and Molly's loud response. That would make the law stick in anyone's head.

> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?
> 
IntoOblivion:
I don't think he was afraid of her, more like he knew all along that he shouldn't but still really wants to try it out (from this perspective Molly's 'not in broad daylight' could almost be her placidating him - you can have a go, just not now)

> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?
> 
IntoOblivion:
I didn't expect it to return.

> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?
> 
IntoOblivion:
We have seen throughout the books that Snape has trouble reconciling the fact that Harry is both the son of Lily Evans, his childhood friend and of James Potter, his teen nemesis. I think that at this point Harry had firmly placed himself in the 'James' son' area. 

So many things about Harry's actions would remind Snape of his father; the unnecessary actions to get attention ('wanted to arrive with a bang, did we. boys?'), the breaking of the rules, that they damaged the Whomping Willow; where one of their biggest 'pranks' on Snape occurred, and the fact that, just like the last time the Willow had been a part of a potentially fatal event, he knew they were going to get away with it.

I see Snape as caught up in his anger at what had happened before, consumed by his long nurtured feelings that injustice had been done, and so unable to reconcile with the knowledge that Harry had to be let off. The two events and their oh so similar outcomes become somewhat linked in Snape's mind.

I think this event and how it impacts Snape's perception of Harry probably had a big affect on how he treats him, in PS we saw him primarily helping Harry (once we figure out what's really going on) but from now on that changes.
 
> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legitimacy and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?
> 
IntoOblivion:
Even had he read their minds to see that they couldn't get through the barrier, as the teachers all say, taking the car was not the logical course of action - waiting for the Weasleys to return or owling an adult wizard was. Also if he read their minds he would have seen Harry's thoughts of a triumphant arrival, confirming any thoughts that they did this for attention and not exactly endearing them to him.

> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?

IntoOblivion:
I just thought it was a potions ingredient. Perhaps a part of a creature of some sort.

Thank you for the interesting questions.




From lealess at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  3 17:13:06 2010
From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:13:06 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkakoi+hl12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkcar2+kqu8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188807



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
<snip>
> The only idea I come with is that Snape hoped that if he can make
> sure that Harry is expelled then he can get out of his promise to 
> Dumbledore to protect him (again, goes without saying that I am
> speculating here and have no canon to support it). But then I am 
> thinking ? um, Dumbledore could have just as easily order Snape to
> follow Harry into muggle world or other wizarding school or
> something to make good on his promise, so that does not fly either.
> See my problem?
>

I favor the explanation that others have given that Snape wanted to impress upon Potter the seriousness of the car being seen.  Further, Snape had just listened to the two boys wish him ill or sacked, when he seemingly skipping dinner to find them.  He probably wanted to rattle their cages a little bit in return.  Snape was not inclined to be fair or kind to Potter.  He saw the hated father in the boy, and this reckless adventure probably confirmed that likeness in his mind.  I'm sure he felt James Potter should have been expelled many times over, and he may have transferred that impulse to James' son.  In this, Snape was regrettably human.

Did he really want Potter to be expelled?  I start from the premise that Snape was trying to fulfill his vow to protect the son of a woman he loved and whose death he felt responsible for.  I think this is what Rowling wanted us to believe, that no matter how imperfect Snape was, he kept his word and worked under Dumbledore's orders.  If you accept this premise, then it should logically follow that Snape's actions sought to protect Potter, in the short run, and achieve the greater good, in the long run.  Protecting Potter could have meant either placing him with the Dursleys on a more permanent basis, or it could have meant making him aware that he couldn't be irresponsible in a dangerous world where, if Muggles could see Potter in a flying car, Death Eaters could see him, as well.

Then there are the human factors like Snape's temper and dislike for Potter.  There's also the fact that Rowling's characters changed personality from book to book as required by the needs of the plot, so looking for consistency is a dodgy game, at best.

I think the problem you are having interpreting Snape's actions is that you start from the premise that Snape is selfish, weak and evil.  To me, this premise was invalidated with The Prince's Tale.  If, as you say, you have no canon to support your speculations, I suggest you examine the assumptions you seek to support in the first place.

lealess




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  3 17:33:35 2010
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:33:35 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkc2g5+svl4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkcc1f+m2rb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188808

> Pippin:
> Besides Jerri's example from HBP, there's also the Trio's attack on Snape in
> PoA, where Snape claims the Trio were confunded and couldn't have known what
> they were doing. 
 
> Alla:
> Here as you said it yourself Snape says that any other student would be suspended, so to me this example is not relevant, whether very strongly or not, Snape does bring up the idea and I thought he says that kids were confunded when they start to advocate for Sirius, not to argue that they should not be expelled lol.

Zara: For the record...

> PoA, "Hermione's Secret":
> Shocking business
shocking
miracle none of them died
never heard the like
by thunder, it was lucky you were there, Snape
"

> "Thank you, Minister."

> "Order of Merlin, Second Class, I'd say. First Class, if I can wangle it!"

> "Thank you very much indeed, Minister."

> "Nasty cut you've got there
Black's work, I suppose?"

> "As a matter of fact, it was Potter, Weasley, and Granger, Minister
"

> "No!"

> "Black had bewitched them, I saw it immediately. A Confundus Charm, to judge by their behavior. They seemed to think there was a possibility he was innocent. They weren't responsible for their actions. On the other hand, their interference might have permitted
Black to escape
They obviously thought they were going to catch Black single-handed. They've got away with a great deal before now
I'm afraid it's given them a rather high opinion of themselves
and of course Potter has always been allowed an extraordinary amount of license by the headmaster __"

Zara:
So Snape shares his theory immediately after Fudge is shocked to learn that the kids attacked Snape.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  3 17:48:48 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:48:48 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkcar2+kqu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkccu0+c25g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188809


Lealess:
<SNIP>
Did he really want Potter to be expelled? I start from the premise that Snape
was trying to fulfill his vow to protect the son of a woman he loved and whose
death he felt responsible for. I think this is what Rowling wanted us to
believe, that no matter how imperfect Snape was, he kept his word and worked
under Dumbledore's orders. If you accept this premise, then it should logically
follow that Snape's actions sought to protect Potter, in the short run, and
achieve the greater good, in the long run. Protecting Potter could have meant
either placing him with the Dursleys on a more permanent basis, or it could have
meant making him aware that he couldn't be irresponsible in a dangerous world
where, if Muggles could see Potter in a flying car, Death Eaters could see him,
as well.

Alla:

But isn't this circular reasoning? You start with the premise that Snape was trying to fulfill the vow to protect Harry which I agree that he tried, but I am also pointing out the facts (Snape arguing that Harry needs to be expelled so many times) that may contradict that premise and you discard them because you think this premise is uncontroverted? 

Lealess:
<SNIP>
I think the problem you are having interpreting Snape's actions is that you
start from the premise that Snape is selfish, weak and evil. To me, this
premise was invalidated with The Prince's Tale. If, as you say, you have no
canon to support your speculations, I suggest you examine the assumptions you
seek to support in the first place.

Alla:

No, I do not view Snape as selfish, weak and evil (evil as in serving Voldemort), I just view him as child abuser evil and certainly by the end of his life I do not view him as selfish and weak, not that I find it relevant to this dilemma of mine. If you could show me a canon where Snape says he does not want to expel Harry, or where he does not bring up expulsion once and does not have any other interests in situation (like not wanting Draco  expelled), I will certainly acknowledge it.

So no this is not the problem I am having and no, I did not say that I do not have the canon to support my speculations. I said that I do not have the canon to support one speculation, specifically the *reason* why Snape may want Harry expelled. That what I was referring to, not to the argument that Snape really does want him expelled, only to the reason besides it. I think canon fact is that Snape brings up the expulsion multiple times. I do not see how from that we can assume that Snape does not want Harry expelled.

JMO,

Alla







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb  3 18:11:10 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:11:10 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkc2g5+svl4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkce7u+trsr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188810

 
> Alla:
> 
> While I disagree with Jerri's argument, I understand the example she brought up, Snape there does not bring up expulsion. Here as you said it yourself Snape says that any other student would be suspended, so to me this example is not relevant, whether very strongly or not, Snape does bring up the idea and I thought he says that kids were confunded when they start to advocate for Sirius, not to argue that they should not be expelled lol.

Pippin:
Actually, the kids haven't had a chance to advocate for Sirius. Fudge assumes that Snape's cut is Black's work, and Snape says "As a matter of fact, it was Potter, Weasley, and Granger, Minister...." 

At this point the kids haven't had a chance to say anything. Nor is there the slightest chance they would be believed even if Snape hadn't been the one who suggested they were confunded. Without proof that Pettigrew is alive, no one is going to believe them.

Snape says that any other students would be suspended "at the very least" -- Clearly Snape is in favor of treating Harry more strictly. But he doesn't press expulsion here  though he implies that he could, even for lesser offenses.


> 
> Alla:
> 
> Not turning Sirius over to the Dementors is definitely matter of opinion. To me that is exactly what he did, but again I do not see how it is relevant here.

Pippin:
Snape said he didn't see any need to take Sirius to the castle, he could just call the dementors. In the event, he took Sirius to the castle. He had no way of knowing that Fudge was still there and would call for the kiss immediately -- for all he knew the Minister had left hours ago. He turned Sirius over to Dumbledore,  knowing that Dumbledore was not going to let dementors into the castle if he could help it.  

My point is that Snape's words are not a good predictor of his actions. 

> 
> Alla:
> . My initial point was that I am convinced that Snape himself **wants** Harry expelled and thus could not reconcile his protection of Harry. It is not that I am closed to the arguments that Snape does not want Harry expelled, I just so far found them unconvincing.
> 
> Pippin:
> Would Snape have liked to see Harry suspended for a while, or better yet, on his
> knees, pleading to stay at Hogwarts? Of course! Subconsciously, IMO, Snape
> wants to make Harry feel the way that James made him feel: frightened,
> humiliated and hopelessly inferior. And he never misses a chance to do that.

> Alla:
> 
> I think you are weakening your argument here. It is really not a long road to travel from what you describe to what I think Snape wants IMO.


Pippin:
Ah, but it is a long road for JKR. The whole premise of the books is that hating someone. wanting to make them feel frightened and humiliated and miserable,  and wanting them dead, are two entirely different things. If you can't buy into that, then of course the characters' actions are not going to make sense. Harry greatly fears that Snape wants him expelled, just as he greatly fears that Snape wants to kill him. But he's wrong on both counts.

JKR wants us to see that we fear hatred too much, so, like Harry, we fixate on that, and ignore the perils of indifference, not to mention misguided good intentions. Quirrell and Fake!Moody come much closer to killing Harry than Snape does, and yet they don't hate him at all. 

Pippin





From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Feb  3 20:09:01 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:09:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch.
 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkcar2+kqu8@eGroups.com>
References: <hkcar2+kqu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B69D7DD.4080709@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188811

lealess wrote:
> Did he really want Potter to be expelled?  I start from the premise that Snape was trying to fulfill his vow to protect the son of a woman he loved and whose death he felt responsible for.  I think this is what Rowling wanted us to believe, that no matter how imperfect Snape was, he kept his word and worked under Dumbledore's orders. 

Bart:
    Along those lines, and with no canon whatsoever to back it up, I 
would not be at all surprised if this were a sort of "good cop, bad cop" 
being put on by DD and Snape. While Snape absolutely has an antipathy 
towards Harry, especially when Harry is doing the kind of thing that 
James might have done, he also knows very well that there is no way that 
Harry would get expelled.

    Here, it definitely makes sense that Snape thinks that Harry thinks 
far too much of himself, which is not only annoying, but dangerous to 
Harry's future (and it is clear from Book 1 that DD thinks that such 
thinking would be bad for the boy, too, although he clearly does not 
think the problem is as bad as Sevvy does).

    Now, going back to guesswork. I think that the prospect of being 
expelled from Hogwarts is too easily bandied about. While at Hogwarts, 
there is the opportunity to correct errant behavior. Once expelled, we 
have a rogue wizard on our hands. Note that although there is 
theoretically home schooling, it also breaks the rules on underage use 
of magic. And, as Rowling seems to conveniently forget, especially as 
Morty starts coming to power, there ARE other countries out there (come 
to think of it, why the hell didn't Muggleborn magicians simply take the 
next boat over to France?). Therefore, it makes sense that if a student 
does something REALLY serious, they should be given cause to believe 
that there is a real possibility, if not a probability, that they WILL 
be expelled. So, if DD needed a "bad cop", Sevvy would certainly have 
been happy to oblige.

    Bart




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  3 20:32:41 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:32:41 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkce7u+trsr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkcmh9+o69b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188812

Pippin:
Actually, the kids haven't had a chance to advocate for Sirius. Fudge assumes
that Snape's cut is Black's work, and Snape says "As a matter of fact, it was
Potter, Weasley, and Granger, Minister...."

At this point the kids haven't had a chance to say anything. Nor is there the
slightest chance they would be believed even if Snape hadn't been the one who
suggested they were confunded. Without proof that Pettigrew is alive, no one is
going to believe them.

Snape says that any other students would be suspended "at the very least" --
Clearly Snape is in favor of treating Harry more strictly. But he doesn't press
expulsion here though he implies that he could, even for lesser offenses.

Alla:

Right, sorry, I see Zara's canon as well. He talks right away, I was wrong. I would argue though that he does it to prevent kids from telling their story, which he tells Fudge and diminishes their credibility when they wake up and do want to advocate for Sirius. However my main point was that he does bring up suspension, but now I am thinking maybe I have the wrong meaning for the word "suspended", I do not have anybody in the family going to American school, not till next year, but from books and movies to me suspension means temporary detention? Am I wrong?


Pippin:
Snape said he didn't see any need to take Sirius to the castle, he could just
call the dementors. In the event, he took Sirius to the castle. He had no way of
knowing that Fudge was still there and would call for the kiss immediately --
for all he knew the Minister had left hours ago. He turned Sirius over to
Dumbledore, knowing that Dumbledore was not going to let dementors into the
castle if he could help it.

Alla:

Really? Why would he make an assumption that Fudge would leave while dangerous criminal is still on the loose? IMO Fudge not leaving is much more reasonable assumption to make and to me giving Sirius to Fudge equals giving him to dementors. So no, to me Snape did hand Sirius to dementors, and the fact that he did it through middle person (Fudge) does not change anything.

Pippin:
My point is that Snape's words are not a good predictor of his actions.

Alla:
I think Snape's words are actually pretty good predictor of his actions, when we have all the information that is. Snape acted as if he hated Harry and what do we see at the end of the books? Snape really did hated Harry till the moment he died. Again, yes, I know not everybody buys it, I take JKR's words for it because that is how I interpret canon anyway.

Of course Snape not only hated Harry , he was also protecting his life (till Dumbledore told him not to) and we did not know that. But the thing is, Snape was **quiet** about it, he was not going around saying "Potter I want you dead". In fact, we are pretty much privy to Snape not wanting Harry dead since book 1. if we accept Quirrelmort's testimony of course.

So, yes as far as I am concerned more often than not you can go buy what Snape says. Of course that does not  mean that you (generic you) will judge what is happening correctly, because you do not have all the information, Dumbledore's death case in point, but do you see my point?



Pippin:
> Would Snape have liked to see Harry suspended for a while, or better yet, on
his
> knees, pleading to stay at Hogwarts? Of course! Subconsciously, IMO, Snape
> wants to make Harry feel the way that James made him feel: frightened,
> humiliated and hopelessly inferior. And he never misses a chance to do that.

> Alla:
>
> I think you are weakening your argument here. It is really not a long road to
travel from what you describe to what I think Snape wants IMO.


Pippin:
Ah, but it is a long road for JKR. The whole premise of the books is that hating
someone. wanting to make them feel frightened and humiliated and miserable, and
wanting them dead, are two entirely different things. If you can't buy into
that, then of course the characters' actions are not going to make sense. Harry
greatly fears that Snape wants him expelled, just as he greatly fears that Snape
wants to kill him. But he's wrong on both counts.

JKR wants us to see that we fear hatred too much, so, like Harry, we fixate on
that, and ignore the perils of indifference, not to mention misguided good
intentions. Quirrell and Fake!Moody come much closer to killing Harry than Snape
does, and yet they don't hate him at all.


Alla:

When I said that it is not a long road to travel from what you are describing to what I describe as Snape's intentions, I concentrated on the part that Snape wanted Harry suspended, not on the fact that he hated Harry. You seem to agree that he would want Harry expelled temporarily and I think he wants Harry expelled permanently, but again maybe I am misunderstanding what suspended means in the American schools? See above.

I agree that it is a longer road from hatred to actions, although I do not think that it is such a long road either. I guess yes, I do not think that if person hates another person (note that I do not say extremely dislikes, I say hates) that this person wants good things for another person. I mean, I do not think it means killing of course not necessarily, but I was arguing that Snape wants Harry expelled, not dead. 

And Quirrelmort and Fake!Moody did not hate Harry?  I never got that impression personally.

JMO,

Alla.






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb  3 21:29:22 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:29:22 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkcmh9+o69b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkcpri+e7h0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188813


> Alla:
>  I do not have anybody in the family going to American school, not till next year, but from books and movies to me suspension means temporary detention? Am I wrong?"

Pippin:
Suspension prohibits the student from attending school for a short period.  

> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Snape said he didn't see any need to take Sirius to the castle, he could just
> call the dementors. In the event, he took Sirius to the castle. He had no way of
> knowing that Fudge was still there and would call for the kiss immediately --
> for all he knew the Minister had left hours ago. He turned Sirius over to
> Dumbledore, knowing that Dumbledore was not going to let dementors into the
> castle if he could help it.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Really? Why would he make an assumption that Fudge would leave while dangerous criminal is still on the loose? 

Pippin:
As far as Fudge knows, Sirius hasn't been seen since the last time he invaded the castle, months earlier.  He didn't come because of Sirius, he came to supervise the execution of Buckbeak, which as far as Snape knows happened as scheduled, at which point Fudge should have returned to London. Snape had no idea that Sirius was in the Shrieking Shack until he got there. He only saw Lupin on the map. 


> Alla:
> 
> When I said that it is not a long road to travel from what you are describing to what I describe as Snape's intentions, I concentrated on the part that Snape wanted Harry suspended, not on the fact that he hated Harry. You seem to agree that he would want Harry expelled temporarily and I think he wants Harry expelled permanently, but again maybe I am misunderstanding what suspended means in the American schools? See above.

Pippin:
Was "detention" above a typo? IMO, wanting Harry  kept out of school for a few days or weeks is not inconsistent with wanting Harry to remain a Hogwarts student under Dumbledore's protection. Especially since a) term is almost over and b) Sirius has been apprehended.

Wanting Harry expelled permanently, so that he can never return to Hogwarts at all, is another cauldron of potion altogether. 

Pippin





From winterfell7 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  3 23:33:27 2010
From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:33:27 -0000
Subject: Arthur and Molly WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5.
In-Reply-To: <hkari1+c45v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkd147+m9m8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188814



> Geoff:
> <SNIP>
> I fear that I am not a great Molly fan. I believe her to be always
> wanting to be the final arbiter in matters. Looking forward into
> OOTP, I disliked her attempts to prevent Harry from finding out
> more about the Order because he was too young and needed to
> be protected when he, of all people. had a right to know. I see her
> as wanting to guard her family from "the slings and arrows of
> outrageous fortune" but that does not excuse her being a control
> freak.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am afraid I am not a great Molly fan either and yes, I will never forgive her conduct towards Sirius in OOP. Yes, I know she loves Harry a great deal, but to me here her love becomes extremely selfish, she should have realized that Sirius was Harry's only chance at having a father figure IMO and be more merciful to him. That is just my opinion of course and opinion of somebody who loves Sirius' and Harry's characters the most in the series, however this is also my honest interpretation of canon, even if I was not the fan of Sirius and Harry.
> 
> However, having said that, to go back to Molly and her family, more and more I came to think that Molly's family DOES consist of her fans. See above why I cannot buy anymore that Arthur is afraid of Molly.

Steve replies...I liked Molly's character much of the time, but I did get annoyed by many things she did. I think Harry loved her as well, and while upset w/ how she treated Sirius and w/ her behavior at times, still cherished her as a mother figure.  What irked me the most was her insistence in DH to know what HRH's mission was and her insistance on keeping them separated at the burrough.  I see why she did it, and sympathized w/ her motives I guess, but wished she would have trusted in Harry a lot more than she did. And like Alla, I too think she was a bit selfish in her actions. I basically thought she should have stopped hassling Harry once she found out he was on a mission for DD. I think Molly should have acted more like Minerva, who was immediately on Harry's side once she heard he was still doing something important on DD's orders/instructions.

I saw Molly's and Arthur's relationship as a close one, with Arthur like a big boy at times and Molly acting as the responsible scolding adult or parental figure when Arthur acted childishly.  But at other times, wasn't she more of an equal partner? Wasn't there times when Arthur was there for her to lean on as well?




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  4 03:40:22 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 03:40:22 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkcpri+e7h0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkdfj6+1s9q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188815


> > Alla:
> >  I do not have anybody in the family going to American school, not till next year, but from books and movies to me suspension means temporary detention? Am I wrong?"
> 
> Pippin:
> Suspension prohibits the student from attending school for a short period. 

Alla:

Right, thank you, that is what I thought, yes, detention was a typo, I meant to write temporary expulsion, so I was not confused about the meaning of the word.

 
>> Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Was "detention" above a typo? IMO, wanting Harry  kept out of school for a few days or weeks is not inconsistent with wanting Harry to remain a Hogwarts student under Dumbledore's protection. Especially since a) term is almost over and b) Sirius has been apprehended.
> 
> Wanting Harry expelled permanently, so that he can never return to Hogwarts at all, is another cauldron of potion altogether. 
>

Alla:

See I do not see how it is that different, considering what my initial dilemma was - how to reconcile Snape wanting to expel Harry (what I believe) with what I know about Snape vowing to protect Harry.

Now let me explain why I do not see what you believe - Snape wanting to temporarily expel Harry as that much different in light of my dilemma. If Harry IS suspended, and the term is not over yet, would he not have to go somewhere which is not Hogwarts? Would not the threat to his life increase drastically outside of Hogwarts? Who cares if this is only for a few days? It will only take a second to kill him, right and he will never return to Hogwarts anyway lol.

So I think if you agree that Snape may only want Harry suspended, you have the same dilemma as I do.

And as I said upthread my ideas for Snape's **reasons** are pure speculation, but only his reasons. As I also said upthread I think it is either because:

a) Snape wanted to get out of his promise to protect Harry or since I am totally willing to assume that he indeed wanted to fulfill his promise

b) He thought Harry would be safer with Dursleys, but why the heck would he assume that if he knew Petunia and I doubt he thought Dursleys would let him stay with Harry there.

JMO of course.

Alla




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Feb  4 07:32:34 2010
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:32:34 -0000
Subject: Arthur and Molly WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5.
In-Reply-To: <hkd147+m9m8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkdt6i+jhv9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188816

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "SteveE" <winterfell7 at ...> wrote:

Steve:
I liked Molly's character much of the time, but I did get annoyed by many things she did. I think Harry loved her as well, and while upset w/ how she treated Sirius and w/ her behavior at times, still cherished her as a mother figure.  What irked me the most was her insistence in DH to know what HRH's mission was and her insistance on keeping them separated at the burrough.  I see why she did it, and sympathized w/ her motives I guess, but wished she would have trusted in Harry a lot more than she did. And like Alla, I too think she was a bit selfish in her actions. I basically thought she should have stopped hassling Harry once she found out he was on a mission for DD. I think Molly should have acted more like Minerva, who was immediately on Harry's side once she heard he was still doing something important on DD's orders/instructions.

Geoff:
In a way you are tending to agree with Alla and myself.

It is **precisely** the things that annoyed you which make me see 
her as a control freak. She wanted to be able to say "yea" or "nay" to 
what the trio or Harry were planning to do and I suspect that if she had
known what their plans were, they would have had great trouble 
getting away from the Burrow despite the fact that it was of paramount 
importance that they did.

There seemed to be a basic distrust of the fact that Dumbledore had 
instructed Harry to keep any information about the Horcrux hunt 
absolutely limited beyond himself to Hermione and Ron and she "had 
to know".

If Molly had found out what their plans entailed and tried to be in 
complete control of their actions, it would have been potentially a 
total disaster.
 to




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  4 08:19:49 2010
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 08:19:49 -0000
Subject: Arthur and Molly WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5.
In-Reply-To: <hkdt6i+jhv9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkdvv5+gcmj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188817



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
...
> 
> Geoff:
> In a way you are tending to agree with Alla and myself.
> 
> It is **precisely** the things that annoyed you which make me
> see her as a control freak. She wanted to be able to say "yea"
> or "nay" to what the trio or Harry were planning to do and I 
> suspect that if she had known what their plans were, they 
> would have had great trouble getting away from the Burrow 
> despite the fact that it was of paramount importance that 
> they did.
> 
> There seemed to be a basic distrust of the fact that Dumbledore
> had instructed Harry to keep any information about the Horcrux
> hunt absolutely limited beyond himself to Hermione and Ron and
> she "had to know".
> 
> If Molly had found out what their plans entailed and tried to 
> be in complete control of their actions, it would have been
> potentially a total disaster.
> 
>

bboyminn:

While I don't disagree with you, I think you are being a little
hard on Molly. She is basically doing what mothers do. She it
trying to protect here kids, including Harry, from the dangers
of life. All parents are like this. All parents are slightly
irrational when it comes to their kids. All parents tend to
be over protective. 

Much like Aberforth, Molly thinks Dumbledore has put too 
much on Harry's shoulders. She thinks Harry ought to step back
and let the 'adults' handle it. She, and to some extent 
Aberforth, think that Harry should concentrate on being a kid 
a little while longer. He should live his life more carefree,
free of the demands of adulthood. They both tend to forget 
that Harry has already carried burdens beyond most adults.

Of course, we see as all kids see, that the adults are making
a total mess of it, and that if the job is to truly be done,
and done in a timely fashion, then Harry has to do it, or
at least try.

But again, most parents are irrational. And yes, Molly does 
things that are generally irrational, but at the same time
are typical of over protective parents. 

Yes, I do think Molly is something of a control freak, but
given the house she lived in, she only had two choices,
either be in absolute control, or live in absolute anarchy.
She choose, and wisely so, control.

Steve/bboyminn





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Feb  4 13:14:26 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:14:26 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkdfj6+1s9q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkeh7i+uh5d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188818


> 
> Alla:
> . If Harry IS suspended, and the term is not over yet, would he not have to go somewhere which is not Hogwarts? Would not the threat to his life increase drastically outside of Hogwarts? Who cares if this is only for a few days? It will only take a second to kill him, right and he will never return to Hogwarts anyway lol.
> 
> So I think if you agree that Snape may only want Harry suspended, you have the same dilemma as I do.

Pippin:
Harry is in the hospital wing. He's not going anywhere till he recovers, suspended or no. Term is only going to last a few more days, and then he'll be going back to the Dursleys, where he has spent most of the last twelve years. Snape has no reason to think that returning to the Dursleys a few days sooner than he would have anyway would put Harry in mortal peril. 

Snape has made a study of Dark Magic and he knows all about the power of love -- he'd know that Voldemort can't get at Harry there. And he's certainly never been afraid of Petunia, whom he knows. If she were a killer, she'd have done in her sister a long time ago. <g>

But much more than that, it wouldn't matter if Snape did convince Fudge that Harry deserves to be expelled or suspended for breaking school rules. Fudge doesn't have the power to do it. Per OOP, the ministry can only punish Harry for breaking wizarding law. Snape not only provides an excuse for Harry's attack on him, he utterly fails to put two and two together and accuse Harry of misusing a time turner.  So altogether, JKR has given us four instances where Harry broke wizarding law.  Snape could have gone over Dumbledore's head, and he not only doesn't do it, he doesn't even try. That's way too much for coincidence. 

He doesn't want Harry expelled, IMO, he just wants validation for his opinion that Harry is a shameless rulebreaker who gets away with everything.   

The people who can expel Harry for breaking school rules are McGonagall and Dumbledore. But Snape knows that just establishing that Harry broke the rules isn't going to make them do it. He's been working for and with these people for more than a decade: he knows McGonagall is a softie at heart and that Dumbledore isn't going to punish anyone (including Snape himself) unless it serves the greater good. 

So I just don't see a serious effort to get Harry expelled. Does Snape think that Harry has broken rules that carry the penalty of expulsion and does he try to establish that? Yes. But can he possibly  think that by doing this he will get Harry expelled? IMO, no. 

 Pippin
 




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  4 16:34:40 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:34:40 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkccu0+c25g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkesv0+4nnr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188819

> Lealess:
> <SNIP>
> Did he really want Potter to be expelled? I start from the premise that Snape
> was trying to fulfill his vow to protect the son of a woman he loved and whose
> death he felt responsible for. I think this is what Rowling wanted us to
> believe, that no matter how imperfect Snape was, he kept his word and worked
> under Dumbledore's orders. If you accept this premise, then it should logically
> follow that Snape's actions sought to protect Potter, in the short run, and
> achieve the greater good, in the long run. Protecting Potter could have meant
> either placing him with the Dursleys on a more permanent basis, or it could have
> meant making him aware that he couldn't be irresponsible in a dangerous world
> where, if Muggles could see Potter in a flying car, Death Eaters could see him,
> as well.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> But isn't this circular reasoning? You start with the premise that Snape was trying to fulfill the vow to protect Harry which I agree that he tried, but I am also pointing out the facts (Snape arguing that Harry needs to be expelled so many times) that may contradict that premise and you discard them because you think this premise is uncontroverted? 


Montavilla47:
We can start from the opposite premise, that Snape hated Harry so much 
that he wanted him expelled--regardless of his vow.  But then that is 
contradicted by the Prince's Tale when Dumbledore informs Snape that 
Harry's fate is to be killed by Voldemort and Snape protests.  

There are four reasons I can see that Snape would protest:

One:  He's stopped hating Harry (which is what Dumbledore assumes 
and Snape vehemently denies.)

Two:  Snape is sick and tired of being manipulated by Dumbledore 
(which is contradicted by his continuing to allow Dumbledore's portrait
to give him orders).

Three: Snape is unable to stomach *anyone* being killed, even that 
rotten brat that he hates.  (I think this is partly true, but as Dumbledore
points out, he has watched a bunch of people getting killed and he's
managed to bear it.)

Four:  That promise to Lily is the most important thing to him--as 
important as ridding the world of a dangerous mass-murdering 
lunatic.  Which would also put it up there with teaching a Harry-free
potion's class.

Number Four seems like the most plausible to me.  When you weigh
the text evidence of CoS against that of DH, you *have* to put more
weight towards the DH text--because it's evident that The Prince's Tale
is meant to be explain Snape's motives throughout the series.

Therefore, what the Prince's Tale shows is more important than anything
CoS shows about Snape's true feelings towards anything.  

As it's *more* likely that Snape would bluff towards a student about
being expelled in any situation where a given student has been caught 
in wrongdoing (and add in the extra thrill of frightening James's son) than
that he would lie to Dumbledore in a private moment of extreme 
importance, I think the reasoning that Snape *was* bluffing is sound.

Even if it seems circular.

> 
> Lealess:
> <SNIP>
> I think the problem you are having interpreting Snape's actions is that you
> start from the premise that Snape is selfish, weak and evil. To me, this
> premise was invalidated with The Prince's Tale. If, as you say, you have no
> canon to support your speculations, I suggest you examine the assumptions you
> seek to support in the first place.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, I do not view Snape as selfish, weak and evil (evil as in serving Voldemort), I just view him as child abuser evil and certainly by the end of his life I do not view him as selfish and weak, not that I find it relevant to this dilemma of mine. If you could show me a canon where Snape says he does not want to expel Harry, or where he does not bring up expulsion once and does not have any other interests in situation (like not wanting Draco  expelled), I will certainly acknowledge it.

Montavilla47:

It seems to me that you are asking people to prove a negative here.
There are a million times that Snape *doesn't* bring up Harry being
expelled.  For example, he doesn't bring up Harry being expelled for 
breaking into Umbridge's office.  Seems like a perfect time.  Umbridge
is aching for an excuse to expel Harry.  I'm sure she'd do it if Snape
asked her.

He also doesn't bring it up when Harry, Hermione, and Ron attack him
in PoA.  

He also doesn't bring it up when he thinks Harry has stolen Gillyweed
from him.

He doesn't bring it up most of the days he teaches Harry, when he's
usually mad at Harry for some reason or another.  

The default mode is Snape *not* demanding that Harry be expelled 
(even if he may be *thinking* about it).  It's only a few times that he 
does, and those can be explained by other motives than a sincere
desire to have Harry expelled.

Alla:
> I think canon fact is that Snape brings up the expulsion multiple times. I do not see how from that we can assume that Snape does not want Harry expelled.

Montavilla47:
Not assume.  Conclude. 

To assume is to start from the premise (as you say above), that Snape
*does not* want Harry expelled.  

To conclude is to examine both premises:  That Snape *does* want 
Harry expelled and that Snape *does not* want Harry expelled.  Then
to look at the evidence of the text, weigh the contradictory evidence,
and *then* decide which is more likely.

Once we do that, we can address the question of *why* he's either
bluffing or asking for something that contradicts his vow.

But we have to start with either one or the other position.  No reason 
is going to cover both.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  5 16:34:19 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:34:19 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkesv0+4nnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkhhab+npqt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188820

Montavilla:
> The default mode is Snape *not* demanding that Harry be expelled 
> (even if he may be *thinking* about it).  It's only a few times that he 
> does, and those can be explained by other motives than a sincere
> desire to have Harry expelled.
> 

Pippin:
It's similar to Arthur and the flying Ford. Does  Arthur really think he can persuade Molly to let him fly the car, or does he just wish he could?  If Molly weren't there, would he have gone ahead?

He could have flown the car already without being discovered, just as the Twins did (five or six times, according to Ron). We know Arthur didn't do that. So my conclusion would be  that while he really would have liked to fly the car, he never seriously thought it would be worth the trouble. 

Similarly, I think Snape would get great pleasure out of imagining Harry's wand being snapped in two and Harry leaving Hogwarts in disgrace. But that doesn't mean he's trying to make it happen.

Alla seems to want  an explanation that would allow Snape to sincerely try to get Harry expelled while at the same time honoring his vow. But that's incompatible with being Dumbledore's man, so much so that trying to take Harry away from Dumbledore's protection was what exposed the impostor Moody. 

And that brings up another argument. If Dumbledore really believed that Snape was trying to get Harry expelled, he would have stopped trusting him. 

Pippin





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Feb  5 21:23:14 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:23:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkaq01+64t8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hki282+egmk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188821


>
> Alla:
> 
> I would argue because he had no chance to pull this off. All Dumbledore needed to do was to legilimence the participants and find out that it was indeed self defense, or at least this is how I interpret hitting back somebody who attacks you with deadly curse. Yes, I know Harry could have used lesser curse, no to me that does not change the fact that Draco attacked him first with bad curse too.

Potioncat:
When have we ever seen Dumbledore do this? He did not use Legilimency to protect Black (at Pettigrew's death) or to catch Riddle or to prevent Hagrid's expulsion. If he used it all, he kept the information to himself. For whatever reason, Legilimency doesn't seem to come into play when crimes or misbehavior occurs. Does Snape or DD know exactly what happened between Draco and Harry? 


> Alla:
> And I would also say that Snape did not try that because if Snape makes the accusation, Dumbledore hands could have been tied too, but in a different way. I would think that he would have no choice but to expel Draco together with Harry, and that was something that Snape did not want.

Potioncat:
It isn't just Snape who wouldn't want Draco expelled. I don't think Dumbledore wants Draco expelled either. If Draco leaves Hogwarts while Dumbledore is alive, then Draco has failed and will be killed. We know DD is trying to prevent both that and Draco successfully killing anyone. But I don't think Snape wants Harry expelled.. By this time LV is back and Harry would certainly be in danger?with Snape less ever than before to protect him. We know from DH that Snape does want to protect Harry ?for Lily.

It may be unclear what Snape really wanted in the first few years, but I think it's certain by HBP he does not want Harry expelled. Does anyone remember the times Snape brought up expulsion? And when he stopped? It would be interesting to really look at each one.

Back to the flying car. Snape clearly says he does not have the power to expel the boys and at least gives the impression it would be an appropriate punishment. Ron seems to agree. McGonagall is the angriest Harry has ever seen her. DD appears disappointed. (DD and Lupin really know how to make Harry feel bad.) I don't think Snape expects the boys to be expelled. He knows that Harry needs to be protected; that one day LV will come after him; surely he knows Harry needs to be trained in magic. He also knows DD and McGonagall.  Did they ever expel James or Sirius? I think this was a "wait till your father gets home" moment. He's surely expecting the boys to be severely punished and is putting that idea in their heads.

What I'd like to know is why Harry and Ron are given a simple, light detention?just a few hours in the castle. It doesn't compare at all to the detention Harry received when McGonagall thought he was out of bounds at night in the castle.

Alla, I understand your dilemma.  It's hard to believe that Snape is protecting Harry, but would want him expelled. I think it's very clear from DH that he never wavered in his commitment to protect Lily's son. So either he wasn't sincere in his efforts to have Harry expelled (which is what I think) or he thought Harry could be better protected away from the WW.





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Feb  5 23:03:36 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:03:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkakoi+hl12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hki848+1007m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188822



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > > 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?
> > > 


> Alla
> 
This question is actually something that really bothers me as in I cannot figure this out still. As Zara knows I really struggled with the wording of this question, because I thought it would be rude to say ? please only answer the question if you indeed believe that Snape wanted to expel Harry. But that's what my dilemma is, I am someone who in good faith believes that Snape wanted to expel Harry and at the same time I am scratching my head trying to figure out how the hell he was going to fulfill the promise to protect Harry away from Hogwarts.
> 


>snip>
> > 
> Right, but precisely because the possibility may come up when Dumbledore's hands are tied, I think Snape keeps pushing for it every chance he gets, only I wish I could figure out why  he did that in light of what we know after DH.
> 
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>

Nikkalmati

Your right - these two positions are incompatable; therefore, one of them has to give way.  We know Snape promised to protect Harry and that it cannot be done outside of Hogwarts.  Ergo, Snape, no matter what he says to Harry, does not want Harry expelled.

I would point out that nowhere in canon does Snape urge anyone who had the authority to expell Harry to do so.  In addition, he does not appear to even report the fight in the bathroom to DD, thus, preventing DD from having to expell one (or both).

If Snape is particularly angry it is possibly because this incident reminds him of the Prank and that Griffindors never get expelled, even when they should be.

Nikkalmati




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sat Feb  6 01:51:23 2010
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 01:51:23 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkb5qs+s3m2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkihus+vhh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188823


> > 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?
> > 
> 
> Neither. I don't think Arthur is truly afraid of her or is just placating her. Arthur may think it will go fine, but Molly feels very strongly that it won't, and that it isn't worth the risk in broad daylight. So Arthur is differing to her out of consideration of her feelings and to err on the side of caution. I think a part of him likes that she keeps him somewhat grounded.

Marianne:

I don't think Arthur is afraid of her.  I think he likes to keep the peace so Molly won't nag.  I'm imagining the conversation. Arthur wants to make the car invisible, he's sure there won't be a problem, but to keep the peace he will take a deep breath, grit his teeth, and say "We could get there faster if the car is invisible. Yes, dear there is a chance we might be seen. Yes, Molly dear, I think you're right.  I have to set an example to the children.  I do work for the MM."

More than likely behind Molly's back he's rolling his eyes and shakes his head.  I know what I do when my mom giving her opinion to me.  I grit my teeth, take a deep breath, say "Yes, mom.  Whatever you say, mom.  Of course mom."  With my back turned I roll my eyes, sigh, and do whatever I want anyway.  Unfortunately Arthur cannot do what he wants.

Which leads me to a question.  When Molly berates Arthur, wouldn't he feel humiliated to be treated that way in front of his children.  He is the father, not one of the children.  I would think it would be hard to have the respect a parent should have when he's not treated like a parent.  Do the Weasley children really respect their father?

Due to some circumstances my children and I lived with my parents.  My parenting skills, or lack thereof, were constantly critized.  As a result my children had very little respect for me.  I know how Arthur might feel.

Marianne




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  6 02:10:57 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 02:10:57 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkesv0+4nnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkij3h+i09p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188824


Montavilla47:
We can start from the opposite premise, that Snape hated Harry so much
that he wanted him expelled--regardless of his vow. But then that is
contradicted by the Prince's Tale when Dumbledore informs Snape that
Harry's fate is to be killed by Voldemort and Snape protests.

There are four reasons I can see that Snape would protest:
<SNIP read other three UPTHREAD>
 Four: That promise to Lily is the most important thing to him--as
important as ridding the world of a dangerous mass-murdering
lunatic. Which would also put it up there with teaching a Harry-free
potion's class.

Number Four seems like the most plausible to me. When you weigh
the text evidence of CoS against that of DH, you *have* to put more
weight towards the DH text--because it's evident that The Prince's Tale
is meant to be explain Snape's motives throughout the series.

Therefore, what the Prince's Tale shows is more important than anything
CoS shows about Snape's true feelings towards anything.

As it's *more* likely that Snape would bluff towards a student about
being expelled in any situation where a given student has been caught
in wrongdoing (and add in the extra thrill of frightening James's son) than
that he would lie to Dumbledore in a private moment of extreme
importance, I think the reasoning that Snape *was* bluffing is sound.

Even if it seems circular.

Alla:

First of all thank you for such well thought out and easy to understand post, I definitely had couple of light bulb moments while reading it, I definitely understand the reasoning "why Snape did not want to expel Harry" much better now, I still have few issues with it though and accordingly with reconciling DH with it.

First and foremost I cannot stress enough that as far as I am concerned  if Snape wants to expel Harry and whatever follows from it means that Snape should be less evil than I view him, not more. After all since my main reason after DH  for dislike of Snape remains that I consider man having a sadistic desire to see Harry suffer and be humiliated as often as possible. So if Snape really WANTED Harry out of Hogwarts, one would think that it should weaken my view of him of sadistic bastard, if he wants a brat out of sight, that would mean  his desire to  have that overcomes his desire to inflict (what I consider as) emotional torture on Harry.  That I suppose still a reply of the sort to Lealess' post who seemed to imply that me viewing Snape as evil (which I do) has anything to do with me being convinced that Snape wanted Harry out of Hogwarts.

Moving on to your post.

I completely totally agree with you  that `Prince's tale" meant to explain Snape's motives (and IMO confirm or shatter some of the beliefs that we had as my belief  and desire of Snape being Voldemort's servant was shattered, but my belief in Snape hating Harry was confirmed in spades).

So here is what I get from Prince's Tale RE : Snape motives, in no order of importance to me.

1.	Snape promised to protect Harry's life.
2.	Snape hated Harry.
3.	Snape did not want Harry dead (I would think that his desire not see Harry dead evaporated pretty fast, but I fully agree that without Dumbledore's forcing the issue Snape wanted Harry alive for Lily's sake).

What I do **not** see in Prince's tale and what you seem to be seeing there is that Snape's promise to protect Harry became the most important thing for him and something that he on his own without Dumbledore to prompt him into it really wanted to do.

See what I am saying? Where does Prince's tale show that if Snape could he would not have wanted to get out of it? I am NOT disputing that he does not want Harry dead, I totally agree with it. I just do not see that Snape really cares if somebody else will do the protection part IF he could get out of it without breaking promise on technicality.

Oh, so I said I had a min light bulb moment and I did and I definitely need to think about this one more, thank you for that, maybe I will eventually talk myself into Snape not wanting Harry expelled lol. See, for some reason in my brain I was trying to reconcile Snape promising to protect Harry v him wanting to expel Harry (in my view) and Snape being upset over Dumbledore wanting Harry dead for some reason was hanging sort of separately, not sure how to explain it better. But as you say this also should be part of the dilemma and this is I guess even harder to reconcile. So anyway, thank you.


Montavilla47:

It seems to me that you are asking people to prove a negative here.
There are a million times that Snape *doesn't* bring up Harry being
expelled. For example, he doesn't bring up Harry being expelled for
breaking into Umbridge's office. Seems like a perfect time. Umbridge
is aching for an excuse to expel Harry. I'm sure she'd do it if Snape
asked her.

He also doesn't bring it up when Harry, Hermione, and Ron attack him
in PoA.

He also doesn't bring it up when he thinks Harry has stolen Gillyweed
from him.

He doesn't bring it up most of the days he teaches Harry, when he's
usually mad at Harry for some reason or another.

The default mode is Snape *not* demanding that Harry be expelled
(even if he may be *thinking* about it). It's only a few times that he
does, and those can be explained by other motives than a sincere
desire to have Harry expelled.


Alla:

Sorry, I do not understand how is that asking people to prove the negative. I am not asking people to prove that there are times when Snape catches Harry when he breaks the rules and does not bring the expulsion, sorry if I gave that impression. I am asking people to prove that he does not bring the expulsion when it is so warranted. Oy, I am looking at my upthread posts and maybe I did not qualify that, sorry. I mean obviously we do not know all Hogwarts rules that warrant expulsion and in fact maybe breaking in Umbridge's office warranted that indeed, I grant you that, or maybe not.  And see my response to Pippin, IMO Snape bringing up suspension during PoA is pretty much the same as bringing up expulsion, that time IMO is definitely very serious and if Snape would not have demanded things there, I would have agreed. Does that make sense? Like I know when In PS Snape takes a book from Harry he does not bring expulsion (well as you know I think he made up that rule, but even if he does not, IMO bringing up expulsion there would have made Snape look crazy).

Montavilla47:
Not assume. Conclude.

To assume is to start from the premise (as you say above), that Snape
*does not* want Harry expelled.

To conclude is to examine both premises: That Snape *does* want
Harry expelled and that Snape *does not* want Harry expelled. Then
to look at the evidence of the text, weigh the contradictory evidence,
and *then* decide which is more likely.

Once we do that, we can address the question of *why* he's either
bluffing or asking for something that contradicts his vow.

But we have to start with either one or the other position. No reason
is going to cover both.



Alla:

Of course! Snape either wants Harry expelled or he does not. That is not the contradiction I was interested in though. The contradiction was: Snape wants Harry expelled, but also swore to protect him, how that could be reconciled.

I totally understand how my contradiction is very easily reconciled by Snape indeed NOT wanting Harry expelled, I am just not quite convinced of that yet.




Nikkalmati

Your right - these two positions are incompatable; therefore, one of them has to
give way. We know Snape promised to protect Harry and that it cannot be done
outside of Hogwarts. Ergo, Snape, no matter what he says to Harry, does not
want Harry expelled.

Alla:

In order for me to consider these two positions irreconcilable I need more proof on :

a)	Harry cannot be protected outside of Hoghwarts ( As much as I do not find it conclusive, Petunia and blood to me seem to prove the opposite at least in author's POV).
b)	Snape indeed **wants** to continue protecting Harry. Note I am not saying that Snape wants Harry dead, as I said above I am totally convinced by Prince's tale that he wanted Harry alive. What I am not convinced of is that this is a task **Snape** wants to continue doing.


Nikkalmati:
I would point out that nowhere in canon does Snape urge anyone who had the
authority to expell Harry to do so.

Alla:

I would point out that as far as I remember nowhere in canon we are privy to conversations of Snape and other teachers about disciplining anybody. To me it cannot be proof that such conversation did not happen, since they are outside of narrator's POV. We see the conversations between Snape and Dumbledore in Prince's tale of course, but besides that I do not remember any. There is that exchange between Snape and Lupin in PoA about Neville, but that is not exactly discussing how to punish him I would think.

 In this chapter Snape says that he is going to bring people who have the authority  to expel Harry and that is what he does, I do not think that it would be too much of filling in the blanks that Snape telling Dumbledore and Minerva about what happen means him wanting them to exercise their authority, IMO of course.

Alla








From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Feb  6 03:12:22 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 03:12:22 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkimmm+o8qj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188825



> 
> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?
> 

Nikkalmati

I don't think his knowledge is the sesult of study.  I think it is just one of the things purebloods learn in the cradle or at mother's knee.  Note he is not very exact in his citing of the law and he applies it incorrectly.  This is not the kind of emergency that would justify underage use of magic and the use of a charmed Muggle object to boot.  I wonder why Arthur did not get in trouble?

Nikkalmati

 
> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?

I don't think he is afraid of her, and, of course, Molly is right as we find out the invisibility button doesn't work.  I think Arthur puts his foot down when he wants to and the children all know it.

Nikkalmati
> 
> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?

Nikkalmati

I thought it was cool.  I was expecting it to be back because Snape twice referred to it as a "valuable" tree.  I still don't know why it was valuable, however.

Nikkalmati

> 
>> 
> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?

Nikkalmati

Well, as has been pointed out, Snape had the Prophet in his hand describing the incident. (BTW how could it get into the paper so fast?)
I don't think Legilimency is so easy to use as some people do.  I don't even know if it can be used without the knowledge of the other person.  Most wizards would need to say the spell, although Snape could perhaps do it silently.  I still think the victim would know.

Nikkalmati
> 
> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?

Nikkalmati

Asparagus?

Nikkalmati
> 
> 7. Please feel free to add your own questions here.

Just want to note that Ginny very nearly forgot and left her "diary" at home.  Was this Riddle's book already?
Nikkalmati
> 
> 
> thank you, Great summary, Alla.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Feb  6 16:18:59 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:18:59 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkij3h+i09p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkk4pj+gf4e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188826

 
> Alla:
> 
 In this chapter Snape says that he is going to bring people who have the authority  to expel Harry and that is what he does, I do not think that it would be too much of filling in the blanks that Snape telling Dumbledore and Minerva about what happen means him wanting them to exercise their authority, IMO of course.

Pippin:
I don't think it takes too much filling in the blanks to conclude that Dumbledore and Minerva would already know what happened.

Since the car was traceable to Arthur, and it would be obvious that Harry and Ron were missing (Hermione probably reported it from the train), and likewise obvious that the car was headed towards Hogwarts at about the same speed as the train, it wouldn't take a gifted logician to deduce what Harry and Ron were up to

 The whole school knew what was going on  -- that would include Dumbledore and McGonagall. I'm sure Snape was searching the grounds with their knowledge and on their orders, and had instructions to report as soon as Harry and Ron were safe. Or don't you think Dumbledore and McGonagall would insist on that?


Pippin




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Feb  6 17:39:59 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:39:59 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkk4pj+gf4e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkk9hf+hk43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188827

 
> > Alla:
> > 
>  In this chapter Snape says that he is going to bring people who have the authority  to expel Harry and that is what he does, I do not think that it would be too much of filling in the blanks that Snape telling Dumbledore and Minerva about what happen means him wanting them to exercise their authority, IMO of course.
> 
> Pippin:

> 
>  The whole school knew what was going on  -- that would include Dumbledore and McGonagall. I'm sure Snape was searching the grounds with their knowledge and on their orders, and had instructions to report as soon as Harry and Ron were safe. Or don't you think Dumbledore and McGonagall would insist on that?

Potioncat:
Snape is also very good at implying one thing while saying something else. He says he does not have the authority to expel the boys. True. So he only brought it up to torture them a bit. He also says he's going to bring people who have the authority to expel. He does that that --because they do have that authority. Either Minerva or DD could decide to expel them. Becuase in this case, it is not a teacher who has the authority, it is the Head of House. Snape may have been the one who was designated to look for the boys, but it was still Minerva who had the job of punishment.

I would bet the expulsion discussion happened well before the car crashed into the tree. Snape telling McG and DD that he thinks the boys should be expelled carries no weight at all. I'm not sure Harry and Ron have figured that out, but we have.

To get back to what Snape said, imho, he knows the boys won't be expelled, but he's putting it into their minds. He says two true statements. I don't have the authority. I'm bringing the ones who do. He might as well have said, "I'm not an expert at transfiguration, but I'm bringing the ones who are."

Stepping out of the story and looking at the pages of the book---JKR created a character who was committed to protecting a boy that he didn't like; she planned the plot so that for most of the storyline the boy and the readers would see his dislike but not his commitment; and she worked in little hints that he had some other agenda so that some readers began to wonder if he was watching out for Harry.

Having Snape bring up expulsion was a good way to show his dislike. Although I guess this brings back to Alla's question, "Did he really want Harry expelled?" (no, I don't think so, but I think he wishes he could safely expel him.)  






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Feb  6 18:56:42 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 6 Feb 2010 18:56:42 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/7/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1265482602.27.91732.m5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188828

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  7 00:11:19 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:11:19 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 4, At Flourish and Blotts
In-Reply-To: <hjlpdn+uvl2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkl0f7+ntkv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188829

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
> Chapter 4: At Flourish and Blotts.
<snip entertaining summary>
> 
> 1.This chapter appears to be just a transition between Harry's time at the Dursleys and Hogwarts, but it is in fact a vital chapter in terms of characters, the wizarding world, and the overall plot. How many places, characters, practices, and things of interest are we introduced to in this chapter?

Carol:
I'm not looking at other people's responses, so I'll probably miss some. We already know about Flourish and Blotts, IIRC, from SS/PS, but I think this is our first time inside it. That aside, we first encounter Knockturn Alley and Borgin and Burke's, both important in relation to Voldemort's history. We meet Lucius Malfoy, whose fight with Mr. Weasley sets up the diary plot, and the DADA teacher du jour, Gilderoy Lockhart, who in this chapter serves mostly as a foil to Harry in terms of their respective attitudes toward fame. The chapter also introduces the Vanishing Cabinet and the Hand of Glory that Lucius *didn't* buy for Draco, setting up Draco's inglorious quest in HBP.
> 
> 2. Do you believe Hagrid was looking for Flesh Eating Slug Repellant in Knockturn Alley? 

Carol:
If he was, then he was looking for it in an odd place since the Knockturn Alley shops are more like to sell the slugs themselves as opposed to the repellent, which doesn't sound like a Dark item to me. (He doesn't say poison, after all.) And why would Flesh-Eating Slugs be eating the school's *cabbages*? The whole story sounds fishy to me, but maybe JKR is just demonstrating her inability to think logically again.
> 
> 3. What could have happened to Harry, if Hagrid had not happened by at that time?

Carol:
I think that's left up to each reader's imagination. Worst case scenario: eaten by a hag?
> 
> 4. Would Harry have vanished, if he had closed the door on the cabinet?

Carol:
I think he'd simply have been transported to Hogwarts since Peeves had not yet broken the matching cabinet. Alternatively, he might have been in limbo like poor Montague, but, if so, there's no point in having Peeves break the cabinet later.
> 
> 5. Why didn't the second year students have to buy more than the one spell book and the books for DADA?

Carol responds:

Some of the books are apparently used every year, at least until NEWT level. For example, Professor Binns never assigns any book other than "A History of Magic." The Transfiguration books change levels twice (he's still using the beginner's book at this point, but, IIRC, he switches to intermediate level in PoA). Snape, evidently, never uses the Potions book, "Magical Drafts and Potions," since it's never mentioned after SS/PS and he writes his potions directions on the board with his wand. Apparently, "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" does double duty as the only Herbology text and an occasional reference book for Potions (or JKR may simply have forgotten about the other book and failed to consult SS/PS!). Some books, such as FBWFT and "Magical Theory" seem to be reference books not related to any particular class (until Hagrid uses FBWFT for COMC). Most students seem to keep all their textbooks rather than selling them back (or lending them to younger sisters and brothers).

> 6. Is Harry right that his goblin gold would not be useful in the Muggle world?

Carol:
I'm sure that he has no idea that the goblins serve as money changers and he doesn't yet know about Squibs, who would be the ideal go-betweens in the exchange.
> 
> 7.  Hagrid says at the end of the chapter that the Malfoys are rotten to the core, the whole family, "bad blood, that's what it is".  This is the first time we hear about blood in the WW.  What does Hagrid mean?  Does he think evil character can be inherited?  Is this a common opinion in the WW?  How does it fit in with other uses of blood in the series?

Carol:
Actually, it's not the first time since earlier in CoS (IIRC) we're told that the Dursleys don't have a drop of magical blood. Hagrid, it seems to me, is as obsessed by "blood" as the Slytherins and talks about its importance in OoP when he's being battered by Grawp and won't tell anybody what's wrong. I *do* think that Hagrid believes that evil character (and possibly Dark wizardry) can be inherited. He certainly seems to think that Slytherins are naturally bad. We also hear the improbable idea that at least one Slytherin has Troll blood. (Strange enough, IMO, that giants or goblins would interbreed with humans.) Violence does seem to be in the "blood" (or genes) of giants and servility in the "blood" (or genes) of house elves (with Dobby being an anomaly). We see "racial" traits in goblins, as well. So it's odd that JKR and her heroes would condemn the Slytherins for believing in Pureblood superiority when not only Hagrid and most of the WW but, apparently, JKR herself seem to hold the same view. Evidently, Muggle blood (which somehow becomes magical through a mutation?)is the exception to the rule since Muggle-borns are (in theory) as good at magic as anyone else. (We have only Hermione and Lily to go by. The Muggle0borns in DH are for the most part thoroughly pathetic.) Anyway, as I keep saying, logic is not JKR's forte, and neither is consistency.

Thanks for the fine summary and questions. That was fun.

Carol, who has been suffering HPfGu withdrawal and now remembers why the group is addictive





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  7 00:59:15 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:59:15 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hk5fbv+q9dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkl393+g8hd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188830

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 5: The Whomping Willow.
<snip summary>
> 
> 1.  Not only Ron knows that underage wizards can use magic in case of emergency, he quotes the chapter of the law to that effect. Was Molly's home schooling that effective or does Ron really like to study more than we were lead to believe?

Carol responds:
I think that Ron is like most kids: he listens selectively. If there's a loophole in the law against underage magic, he'll know it. Of course, the source of this information could very well be the Twins rather than Molly. :-)
> 
> 2.  Is Arthur just placating Molly when he agrees not to make car invisible or is he truly afraid of her?

Carol:
Interesting question. I don't think he's really afraid of her, but he does love her and he doesn't like fighting himself (unless his opponent is Lucius Malfoy!). He's probably just avoiding a scene, IMO.
> 
> 3. What was your first impression of Whomping Willow? Did you expect for it to make another appearance in the series?
> 
> 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"?

Carol:
Oh, well. "Would like to" and "will" are two different things. When he actually could have insisted on Harry's expulsion in HBP, he didn't do so. Since Snape doesn't have the authority to expel any students not in his own House, it's an empty threat, anyway. He surely knows that neither McGonagall nor Dumbledore will expel Harry in this instance. OTOH, it *is* a serious matter to breach the Statute of Secrecy, and he wants them to know that.
> 
> 
> 5. "This was not the first time Snape had given Harry the impression of being able to read minds". We know now that this impression was absolutely correct. If Snape used Legilimency and knew that they indeed could not get through 9 3/4 by regular means, why does he say what he says?

Carol:
It's not clear just how much Snape can tell from his form of Legilimency, which isn't the violation of people's minds that we see when Voldemort enters poor old Gregorovitch's mind. But even if he knew that they couldn't get onto the platform, he certainly doesn't want them to know that he's a Legilimens or even that such a thing exists.
> 
> 6. What do you think was that "large, slimy something suspended in green liquid on a shelf behind Snape's desk?
> 
Carol:
Could be just about anything. Maybe a quintaped or even gillyweed! I don't think that it would be a snake, partly because that's the symbol of Slytherin and he wouldn't dishonor it and partly because Harry would know a snake when he saw one. I think that JKR deliberately keeps the contents of Snape's jars mysterious just as he himself is mysterious. At any rate, I'm sure that all the pickled animals and plants in his office are potential potion ingredients. He seems to enjoy research, and for all we know, he enjoys the embalming process!

Carol, who thinks this chapter is one of the most enjoyable in CoS




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  7 14:40:51 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:40:51 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkaq01+64t8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkmjdj+a75a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188831

Alla wrote:
> 
> I would argue because he had no chance to pull this off. All Dumbledore needed to do was to legilimence the participants and find out that it was indeed self defense, or at least this is how I interpret hitting back somebody who attacks you with deadly curse. Yes, I know Harry could have used lesser curse, no to me that does not change the fact that Draco attacked him first with bad curse too.
> 
> And I would also say that Snape did not try that because if Snape makes the accusation, Dumbledore hands could have been tied too, but in a different way. I would think that he would have no choice but to expel Draco  together with Harry, and that was something that Snape did not want.
> 
> JMO of course.
>
Carol responds:
Snape had vowed to protect Harry and, as even Quirrell says in CoS, did not want him dead. To expel him at that time would have meant sending Harry right into the DEs' and Voldemort's hands. Later, we see Snape tell the Death Eaters to leave Harry for the Dark Lord, but, of course, he's really just getting them away from Harry and off the Hogwarts grounds.

Carol, who thinks that Snape could have informed the Ministry on this occasion if he so desired, unlike most occasions when he really did not have the power to expel Harry




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  7 15:06:13 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 15:06:13 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkc1ac+ofre@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkmkt5+ottc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188832

Pippin wrote:
><snipping the part I agree with>

> Would Snape have liked to see Harry suspended for a while, or better yet, on his knees, pleading to stay at Hogwarts?  Of course! Subconsciously, IMO, Snape wants to make Harry feel the way that James made him feel: frightened, humiliated and hopelessly inferior. And he never misses a chance to do that. But he never presses for Harry to be expelled when there's the slightest chance of it actually happening. 
>
<snip for same reason>

Carol responds:

As indicated, I agree with most of your post. But I don't think that James made Severus feel frightened or hopelessly inferior--humiliated, yes, on the one occasion when James attacked him publicly, but the humiliation was mostly because a girl he liked (and wanted to impress) came to his defense. I think it was anger, not fear, that motivated him. He swears, tries to get his wand, and fights back (fighting dirty just as the other two did), ignoring Sirius and concentrating on James, of whom he is jealous, not because of Quidditch, Remus to the contrary, but because of Lily. He's understandably furious that he was attacked unawares, two on one. In a fair fight, as even Sirius (or is it Remus?) admits, he "gave as good as he got."

Even as a boy, Severus was a talented and brilliant wizard who invented his own spells and had quick reflexes, just not quick enough for boys who already had their wands pointed at him and intended to humiliate him publicly. As an adult, he's a master duelist, and there's no reason to suppose that he wasn't equally talented (if less experienced and wary) at sixteen.

Carol, still wondering how James learned Severus's nonverbal spell





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  7 15:20:21 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 15:20:21 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkc2g5+svl4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkmlnl+cs65@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188833

Alla:
> 
> Never is once as far as I am concerned (fight in the bathroom) and IMO if Draco did not have to be expelled Snape would have done exactly that.

Carol responds:
Why would Draco have been expelled? Harry says nothing to Snape about Draco's unsuccessful attempt to cast an Unforgiveable Curse, and if Snape knows about it through Legilimency, he doesn't say anything to anybody about it, and besides, you can't be expelled for a spell you tried and failed to cast. *Harry* cast a Dark curse and nearly killed Draco, and if Snape hadn't saved Draco's life, Draco would have died. In that case, not even Dumbledore could have kept him from being expelled. His only protection from Voldemort would have been Azkaban. But Snape says nothing about Draco (except as victim) and assigns multiple detentions (a punishment within his authority as a teacher), saying nothing about expulsion, as he would have done if he wanted Harry expelled. There's that little matter of his promise to protect Harry, which would be broken if Harry were expelled after Voldemort's return--and especially in OoP through HBP.

Carol, wishing that she could remember the last time Snape mentioned expulsion and still believing that he was never serious about it




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  7 17:13:45 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:13:45 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkmlnl+cs65@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkmsc9+s7qv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188834

Alla:
>
> Never is once as far as I am concerned (fight in the bathroom) and IMO if
Draco did not have to be expelled Snape would have done exactly that.

Carol responds:
Why would Draco have been expelled? Harry says nothing to Snape about Draco's
unsuccessful attempt to cast an Unforgiveable Curse, and if Snape knows about it
through Legilimency, he doesn't say anything to anybody about it, and besides,
you can't be expelled for a spell you tried and failed to cast. <SNIP>

Alla:

Because I believe that Dumbledore (bastard as he is in my view) would not have ever made a decision about expulsion of one student without figuring whole truth about the accident. To me this means that he would have used legilimency on Harry and Draco without any hesitation whatsoever. I believe that Harry was totally right that Dumbledore used Legilimency on him (Harry did not know about that of course, but he had a feeling that Dumbledore knew he was lying) when he was talking about hearing voices and many other times.

And yes, to me  if Dumbledore learns the whole truth means Draco is guilty as hell for attacking fellow student with unforgivable curse, failed or not.  IMO of course.


And I am not trying to be sarcastic, but unless you can produce Inclusive the list of Hogwarts rules and punishments that warrants or not warrants expulsion, this is just the matter of opinion that you cannot be expelled for trying and failing the unforgivable curse.

I think that all the times when Snape brings expulsion we can only try to guess whether this is indeed warrants expulsion, however some accidents to me just a matter of common sense. And of course my common sense could be different from yours or anybody else's.

I would also think that the rule that warrants expulsion for attempt to cast unforgivable curse makes much more sense than a rule that allows teacher to snatch away a book from student's hands who was quietly reading the book outside and claim that such rule exists.

JMO,

Alla









From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb  7 18:02:10 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 7 Feb 2010 18:02:10 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/7/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1265565730.500.17662.m13@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188835

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From juli17 at aol.com  Sun Feb  7 22:10:18 2010
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17ptf)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 22:10:18 -0000
Subject: Harry's safety: To Expell or Not
Message-ID: <hkndoa+gfll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188836

I'm not sure what Harry's safety has to do with whether
Snape really wants to see Harry expelled or not. On the
other hand, maybe it has everything to do with it...

Snape's vow to Dumbledore is to help protect Harry so 
Lily's son can grow up despite the threat he is living 
under from the DEs and Voldemort (should the latter find
a way to return). From Harry's first year that has been 
made progressively more difficult by Harry's penchant
for putting himself in mortal peril. From Snape's POV,
is Harry safer at Hogwarts, where he constantly gets 
himself into troublesome situations (forcing Snape to
be on constant alert, of course), or at home, where
he is under the protection of his mother's blood (even
while he is going to the local school) and away from
the apparently adverse infuence of magical surroundings
(in which case Snape can breathe a sigh of relief and 
get on with his own business knowing the boy is safe)?

It seems obvious to me, and I can see Snape and Dumbledore
having a conversation(s) like thus:

Snape "How am I supposed to protect the boy when all he
does is break the rules and put himself in danger? He 
needs to be expelled and sent back to his relatives 
where he'll be safe!"

Dumbledore: "And out of your greasy hair, Severus?"
(Okay, maybe Dumbledore would leave out the greasy part)

Snape (bitter): "Is it only Slytherins who should suffer
the consequences of their actions then, Dumbledore? The boy
saviour learns *nothing* when you let him get away with
*everything*."

Dumbledore: "He has been chastised, Severus(--"Like that
does any good," Severus mutters, as Dumbledore continues
to speak right over him--)Speaking of learning, how would
Harry learn what he needs to know to defeat Voldemort if
he is not at Hogwarts?"

Snape: "We still don't know if the Dark Lord will return!
In the meanwhile his minions keep finding ways to reach
the boy, and the boy makes it easy for them by searching
for ever more ways of getting himself stupidly killed--"

Which brings up an interesting point. It seems to me that
Snape relinquished his demands that Harry be expelled at
approximately the same time that Voldemort came to full
body and power. At which time Snape would have realized 
that merely protecting Harry's life would not be enough;
for Harry to survive the resurrected Voldemort he would
need to learn things he could only be taught by wizards
such as Dumbledore and himself, at Hogwarts.

So I don't have any conflict with Snape genuinely 
wanting Harry expelled in those early years. He knows
Harry is safe at his aunt's house (and until Occlumency
he seems to assume Harry leads a pampered life there).
If the boy needed basic magical training it could be 
arranged by tutor, while he continues to get a muggle
education. And I doubt Snape was worried about years 
into the future. After all, in the unlikely even that
Voldemort returned in full body and power, Harry could
always be brought back to Hogwarts. 

I wouldn't have wanted Snape to have his way, and I 
don't think Snape ever expected to get Harry expelled.
But he had a solid argument for it, so it's not like
his threats of expulsion could all be chalked up merely
to unreasonable hatred of Harry, nor to Snape willing
to dismiss/ignore his vow to protect Harry. 

Julie 





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  7 23:29:00 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 23:29:00 -0000
Subject: chapter discussion CoS 4 and 5
Message-ID: <hknibs+l1ht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188837

Nikkalmati discussed CoS Chapter 4 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188777>:

<< Harry (snip) is accosted by an ugly witch. >>

Do you think she might have been a hag intending to eat him? Hags, a kind of being who is technically not human, eat young children; Harry at 12 was a bit too old, but he was small for his age at that time. She was selling fingernails, presumably as an ingredient for some potion, or food for some Dark beast; could they be leftovers from the children she'd eaten? *waves at Carol <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188829>*

<< 6. Is Harry right that his goblin gold would not be useful in the Muggle world?>>

Probably. The size of those Galleons seems to me that if they were real, non-magical gold, they'd be too heavy to carry enough of them to buy anything at those prices. However, as Alla mentioned, Gringotts exchanges between being Goblin and Muggle currency.

Potioncat replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188780>:

<< We see (snip) Percy's ambitious nature >>

It was suggested on list that Percy was not actually reading PREFECTS WHO GAINED POWER, but had simply grabbed up the nearest book to pretend to read, really to conceal from his family that he had met with Penelope. Whatever became of Penelope? Her name seemed to show that she would wait for him as long as it took.

Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188783>:

<< But the books show that cruelty does have negative consequences, though they may not become apparent for a long time. And because they may not be apparent, it becomes a matter of faith. One must choose to believe that, in the long run, the personal satisfaction of getting nasty wouldn't be worth it. >>

I continue to believe that you read the Potter ouevre more subtly than Rowling does. If she intended such subtlety, she concealed her intention by statements made in character as her own self such as that Marietta's spots are not cured because 'I hate a traitor!'.

Which reminds me to recite my tired old rant about parallelisms. Snape and Pettigrew both turned from the side they were originally on to the other side and betrayed their friends who remained on the original side, resulting in the deaths and imprisonments of some of those friends. Dobby and Kreachur each betrayed his owner in order to assist a person whom the owner views as an enemy, in one case to the death of the owner and in the other to the owner's serious financial and political loss. 

Percy turned against his family because they turned against the side that he stuck with (the Ministry); I believe that when he made his decision, he sincerely believed that the Minister was right and Dumbledore was wrong and that his family had been deceived by Dumbledore (although he must have SOON learned that the Minister was corrupt). Marietta turned against the DA because she stuck with her family; she acted on the principle of family loyalty which Percy had been condemned (by listies) for breaking. 

It seems to me that Rowling made it utterly clear that she hates only traitors against the good guys, not traitors against the bad guys. In which case, the whole discussion of betrayal versus loyalty is a red herring; the real question is whether you serve the good guys or the bad guys.

Alla discussed CoS Chapter 5 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188786>:

<< very angry Snape meets and greets them >>

One of the GREAT lines of the series that stupid Chris Columbus dropped from the movie. It starts with the boys seeing the Welcoming Feast through the window and Snape isn't at his place at the High Table. Harry asked: "Where's Snape?"

<< "Maybe he's ill!" said Ron hopefully.

"Maybe he's left," said Harry, "because he missed out on the Defense Against Dark Arts job again!"

"Or he might have been sacked!" said Ron enthusiastically. "I mean, everyone hates him -"

"Or maybe," said a very cold voice right behind them, "he's waiting to hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train." >>

<< 4. Snape implies that he would like to expel Harry. How can this be reconciled with the commitment to help Dumbledore protect Harry we saw him make in "The Prince's Tale"? >>

Easy. Snape was lying about expecting that Harry could be expelled. *waves to Zara and others* 

"Want" is a problem word. Catlady *wants* to shut off her alarm clock and go back to sleep, but *good* Catlady shuts off her alarm clock and gets out of bed, and goes to work on time, despite loudly and sincerely telling both cats how much I *want* to stay in bed instead of feeding them.

Julie wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188836>:

<< Which brings up an interesting point. It seems to me that Snape relinquished his demands that Harry be expelled at approximately the same time that Voldemort came to full body and power. At which time Snape would have realized that merely protecting Harry's life would not be enough; for Harry to survive the resurrected Voldemort he would need to learn things he could only be taught by wizards such as Dumbledore and himself, at Hogwarts. >>

Good point. Maybe Snape wasn't just venting when he spoke of Harry being expelled.

Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188795>:

<< Are you sure it's Harry Snape would like to expel? The dialogue has Snape mostly replying to Ron. Snape doubtless thinks that if Weasley got expelled, Harry would get into trouble less often. That could account for his "Christmas had been cancelled" expression when the boys are let off. >>

I never thought of that! Poor Ron. 

Even if Snape's motive for wanting to expel Ron was his task of protecting Harry, his personal venom against Ron is just as sincere as his personal venom against Harry. It's always been a given that Snape disliked Ron for being a poor student, Harry's friend, and a Gryffindor. Perhaps Snape also took out on Ron some of his annoyance at Fred and George. (How could he NOT be annoyed at Gred and Forge?)

Carol still wondered in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188832>:

<< how James learned Severus's nonverbal spell >>

I still believe Remus's statement that everyone was using Levicorpus on everyone that year. I'm sure it didn't leak from Lily, but instead leaked when Severus taught it to one or more of his Slytherin friends, who taught it throughout Slytherin House, and one or more Slytherins taught it to a Ravenclaw girlfriend or boyfriend, who taught it to more Ravenclaws...





From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  8 00:41:07 2010
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (Megan Real)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 00:41:07 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6, Gilderoy Lockhart
Message-ID: <hknmj3+egm0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188838

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

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----------------------------------------------------------------

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Chapter 6: Gilderoy Lockhart.


The chapter begins with Ron getting a howler from his parents about the car - Harry is still feeling guilty about the trouble he caused them. The students get their schedules and start their classes, the first of which for Harry is Herbology, where they pot the baby mandrakes. Throughout the chapter, Harry keeps running into Gilderoy Lockhart, who assumes that Harry shares his love of fame. In Professor Lockhart's Defense Against the Dark Arts class, the students take a quiz about the professor's books, then are asked to round up some pixies which Professor Lockhart releases but is unable to control.

Questions:

1. What did you think of the human-like characteristics and development of the mandrakes in light of the fact that they are ground up and used in potions?

2. Why do you think Professor McGonagall's class got such a short mention in this chapter compared to Professors Sprout and Lockhart?

3. For fun: What do you think might have been some other questions Professor Lockhart considered for his introductory quiz?

4. Before seeing the movie, what did you think the pixies looked like?

5. What was your initial impression of Justin Finch-Fletchley? Did you think he would turn out to be important later?

Please feel free to add pertinent questions.


Megan Real
---------------------------------------------------------------------NOTE: For
more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter
Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsdatabase?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 7, Mudbluds and Murmurs, on February 14, 2010.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion,
please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space). (PLEASE please please volunteer :)) Many thanks guys :))

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  8 01:09:42 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 01:09:42 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6, Gilderoy Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <hknmj3+egm0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkno8m+1r45@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188839



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megan Real" <poohmeg20 at ...> wrote:
<SNIP of the summary and great questions>

Thank you so much for excellent questions, Megan :). I will come back to answer them later, but I want to throw in my question now.

6. What is the purpose that dear Gilderoy served in the grand scheme of things in the Potterverse? Seriously, I had been thinking about it and decided that I am not sure. Quirrell had Voldemort in his head, Remus was connection to Harry's past, Fake!Moody was well, Voldemort's servant. Umbridge I supposed was oppression to fight against? Slugghorn also had connection to Tommy and thus the past. Gilderoy, well, I don't know? Is he just for laughs and for Harry to learn that vanity and lying for one's own sake is bed? Am I missing the bigger purpose here?

Thanks,

Alla




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  8 19:37:52 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:37:52 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkno8m+1r45@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkpp6g+3c8l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188840



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> 6. What is the purpose that dear Gilderoy served in the grand scheme of things in the Potterverse? Seriously, I had been thinking about it and decided that I am not sure. Quirrell had Voldemort in his head, Remus was connection to Harry's past, Fake!Moody was well, Voldemort's servant. Umbridge I supposed was oppression to fight against? Slugghorn also had connection to Tommy and thus the past. Gilderoy, well, I don't know? Is he just for laughs and for Harry to learn that vanity and lying for one's own sake is bed? Am I missing the bigger purpose here?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alla
>

Annemehr:

This is a very interesting question!  You are right, Quirrell, Crouch!Moody and Slughorn played direct roles regarding the rise of Voldemort.

Umbridge, now, hmm...I think yes, her role is just as important in its own way in showing the breakdown of what is supposed to be the anti-criminal alliances; the weakness of government in a crisis - particularly as government attracts powermongers who won't and and indeed *can't* deal with a real threat to society.

On the other hand, Lockhart's place in the plot itself could have been filled by nearly anyone.  I can't think of anything that happened that he was essential for.  He was instead a handy redshirt who was used to advance the plot in certain ways that could just as easily been accomplished otherwise: to anger the snake Draco conjured in the dueling club, to introduce the concept of the memory charm, to cause the cave-in that made Harry continue to the Chamber alone, to name a few.

I just think, as the plot of this book did not involve any particular need of a particular DADA teacher, that Lockhart was, literarily, a chance for JKR to have a little fun with the DADA curse, and to contribute to the necessary general accumulation of frustration for Harry. 

I might even guess that he was just as important to JKR as a chance to poke fun at someone who drove her nuts as he was in his function in the book itself.

Though I couldn't say if even JKR knows that for sure.

Annemehr




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  8 20:54:00 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:54:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6, Gilderoy Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <hknmj3+egm0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkptl8+d41i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188841


> 1. What did you think of the human-like characteristics and development of the mandrakes in light of the fact that they are ground up and used in potions?
> 

Annemehr:
I remember so many past discussions about this!  When you think about it, most of us use so many plants and animals for food and "potions" (i.e. anything from medicines to make-up).  A lot of us in real life may tread the line between uneasiness at the use of animals, farm practices, etc. and the idea that carnivorousness is completely natural.

But here JKR is just pushing a traditional linkage of mandrake roots and human anatomy to the limit.  What squicks us a little is the resulting very *human* behavior they enact, and even more so that we see them as "babies" to "adolescents." 

But this is Herbology, not CoMC. In the end, they're just plants.  Any resemblance to persons real or imaginary is just...magic.

Harry had a talking mirror in his room at the Leaky Cauldron the following year.  Do you think it was a member of a union?

Annemehr




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb  8 21:17:08 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:17:08 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkpp6g+3c8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkpv0k+2lc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188842

 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214@> wrote:
> 
> > 6. What is the purpose that dear Gilderoy served in the grand scheme of things in the Potterverse? 

Pippin:
He shows that amorality isn't necessarily wedded to a lust for power or the practice of the dark arts. Gilderoy isn't seeking world domination and he couldn't curse his way out of a paper bag. He just wants to be famous and sell lots of books. 

In a sense he paves the way for Crouch Sr and other characters who are staunchly anti-Dark Arts and yet either amoral or morally conflicted. 

Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb  8 21:32:30 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:32:30 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkmkt5+ottc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkpvte+r9f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188843


> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> As indicated, I agree with most of your post. But I don't think that James made Severus feel frightened or hopelessly inferior--humiliated, yes, on the one occasion when James attacked him publicly, but the humiliation was mostly because a girl he liked (and wanted to impress) came to his defense.

Pippin:
James and his friends made a habit of attacking Snape four on one, and though he certainly was not cowed or terrified by them, he could never feel safe or comfortable in any situation where they might get the upper hand. He thinks they tried to kill him, and would have succeeded if one of them hadn't gotten cold feet. He knew what would happen if he let down his guard. 

As for being inferior, I don't see how that can even be in question. James had wealth, charm, physical grace, pureblood status and Quidditch stardom, all of which gave him social status that Snape could never have. And though Snape may not have envied any of those things for their own sake, he surely thought that power and prestige  would impress Lily just as much as they impressed him. He didn't become a Slytherin or a Death Eater for the sheer intellectual challenge, IMO. He expected a reward.

Pippin





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Feb  9 02:20:24 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 02:20:24 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkpv0k+2lc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkqgp8+c15t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188844

Questions:
> 1. What did you think of the human-like characteristics and development of the mandrakes in light of the fact that they are ground up and used in potions?
Potioncat:
Real life Mandrakes do have a human-like appearance?with a folklore built around that fact. So JKR was just taking it another step or two. I recall if they ever demonstrated personality; but I never thought of them as more than plants.  Of course I guess this could be just another example of wizards being insensitive to other beings. I did think it was funny that Harry's mandrake didn't like being pulled out of the dirt, but didn't seem to want to go back in either.
> 
> 2. Why do you think Professor McGonagall's class got such a short mention in this chapter compared to Professors Sprout and Lockhart?
Potioncat:
Sad to say, because our good Professor McGonagall was less important than we thought.
> 
> 3. For fun: What do you think might have been some other questions Professor Lockhart considered for his introductory quiz?
Potioncat:
Oh, dear. I'd just as soon not know. 
> 
> 4. Before seeing the movie, what did you think the pixies looked like?
Potioncat:
I don't remember, but as I read the chapter this time, I was aware of how close the movie came.
> 
> 5. What was your initial impression of Justin Finch-Fletchley? Did you think he would turn out to be important later?
Potioncat:
It wasn't till later that I started wondering who or what was going to be important.  I wasn't sure if his comment about Eton was being a show-off or if it was just to suggest to readers that he was Muggle-born.

Thanks Megan, for interesting questions.

And two questions from me, Potioncat:
Potioncat:

Does anyone remember how soon after SS/PS was published that CoS came out? Ron's comment about Ginny and Colin forming a Harry Potter fan club really struck me at this read. Do you think she was poking fun at herself, or had she already written this before she knew about the reaction to her book?


Why do you think Hermione fell for Lockhart? 







From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Feb  9 02:51:55 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 02:51:55 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkmsc9+s7qv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkqikb+dng5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188845



> 
>> 
> Alla:
> 
> snip> 

> And I am not trying to be sarcastic, but unless you can produce Inclusive the list of Hogwarts rules and punishments that warrants or not warrants expulsion, this is just the matter of opinion that you cannot be expelled for trying and failing the unforgivable curse.
> 
> I think that all the times when Snape brings expulsion we can only try to guess whether this is indeed warrants expulsion, however some accidents to me just a matter of common sense. And of course my common sense could be different from yours or anybody else's.

Nikkalmati

I am not sure what "all the times" consists of.  We can't properly evaluate his true motives unless we have some kind of a list.  He threatens Harry and Ron in this chapter.  HG cries out that they will surely be expelled for hexing SS in the Shack, and then SS covers for the students by telling Fudge that they were not responsible because they were confunded.  Suspension is not the same as expulsion; he never makes explicit what act he considers worthy of suspension (he seems to be just whining here); and, as noted by others, the students are not given any punishment. Are there any other examples? Someone must know of others. 

Nikkalmati
 
> Alla
> I would also think that the rule that warrants expulsion for attempt to cast unforgivable curse makes much more sense than a rule that allows teacher to snatch away a book from student's hands who was quietly reading the book outside and claim that such rule exists.
> 
> JMO,
> 
Nikkalmati

Can you produce inclusinve the list of Hogwarts rules and punishments that does not include such a rule?  I think it makes perfect sense to forbid students from taking library books outside, especially in bad weather. JMHO.

Nikkalmati
>





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  9 03:08:59 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:08:59 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkqikb+dng5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkqjkb+5ksm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188846



> Nikkalmati
> 
> I am not sure what "all the times" consists of.  We can't properly evaluate his true motives unless we have some kind of a list. <SNIP of several examples>

Alla:

I am pretty sure there are few more examples, but no I do not remember them on the top of my head. I would have swore that there was at least one time in PS/SS when Snape threatens Harry with expulsion. I do not have time to do it right now or during a working week unfortunately, but I do promise to look through books soon enough (hopefully within a week or two) and produce more examples

> > Alla
> > I would also think that the rule that warrants expulsion for attempt to cast unforgivable curse makes much more sense than a rule that allows teacher to snatch away a book from student's hands who was quietly reading the book outside and claim that such rule exists.
> > 
> > JMO,
> > 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> Can you produce inclusinve the list of Hogwarts rules and punishments that does not include such a rule?  I think it makes perfect sense to forbid students from taking library books outside, especially in bad weather. JMHO.


Alla:

Well, no of course I cannot produce such list and that was my point. I think we can only speculate which rule breaking really warrants expulsion and which one does not, but since I can only evaluate them according to what I consider as common sense, to me attempting to attack fellow student with unforgivable curse warrants expulsion.  And sure, I brought up the example about the book because I consider this a made up rule by Snape which to me nonsense.

The rule forbidding to take the rare books **outside the library**? Absolutely, makes a lot of sense to me. The rule allowing taking the book, which is not rare at all by the way, outside the library, but not reading it outside? To me it does not make a yota of sense.

JMO,

Alla




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 05:06:16 2010
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 05:06:16 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkqgp8+c15t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkqqg8+hsgc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188847

> Potioncat:
> Why do you think Hermione fell for Lockhart?


Kemper now:
Great question!  Her Jungian shadow recognized Lockhart as a kindred spirit and so her shallow soul swooned.

Kemper





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Feb  9 07:34:51 2010
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 07:34:51 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkqgp8+c15t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkr36r+kvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188848

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

Potioncat:

> Does anyone remember how soon after SS/PS was published that CoS came out? 

Geoff:
The UK editions, which were the first,  were - Philosopher's Stone  
30/06/1997 and Chamber of Secrets 02/07/1998






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Feb  9 07:38:03 2010
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 07:38:03 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkqqg8+hsgc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkr3cr+e8pp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188849

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kemper" <iam.kemper at ...> wrote:

> > Potioncat:
> > Why do you think Hermione fell for Lockhart?
 
Kemper:
> Great question!  Her Jungian shadow recognized Lockhart as a kindred spirit and so her shallow soul swooned.

Geoff:
Or, perhaps like many thousands of young ladies, she was swept 
up in admiration and the nearness of a celebrity and just had a 
good old-fashioned crush on him?
:-)





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Feb  9 13:20:51 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:20:51 -0000
Subject: List of threats (was Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hkqikb+dng5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkrnfj+jhcn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188850


> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> I am not sure what "all the times" consists of.  We can't properly evaluate his true motives unless we have some kind of a list.  He threatens Harry and Ron in this chapter.  HG cries out that they will surely be expelled for hexing SS in the Shack, and then SS covers for the students by telling Fudge that they were not responsible because they were confunded.  Suspension is not the same as expulsion; he never makes explicit what act he considers worthy of suspension (he seems to be just whining here); and, as noted by others, the students are not given any punishment. Are there any other examples? Someone must know of others. 
> 

Potioncat:
I'll start a list from your post, tossing in any comments about being expelled by other characters.

PS/SS 
ch 16--Snapes threatens expulsion for "any more night time wanderings." (this is just after the Trio realize DD is away the the Stone is at risk) In this same chapter McG threatens to take 50 points if they don't stay away from the trapdoor.
- Hermione says that after what McG and Snape have said, Harry would be expelled for going out at night. So she's going by both teachers. She also thinks she's safe from being expelled because of her grade in Charms.

-Madam Hooch threatens to expel anyone who gets on a broom.
- McG says that if anyone acts up in her class they will leave and not come back. (I think she only meant form transfiguration, and I'm sure no one tested it.)

CoS
-MoM informs Harry he is at risk of expulsion
-Whomping Willow Chapter, Snape threatens

PoA
- Hermione thinks they'll be expelled in PoA for hexing Snape.
- Snape may be suggesting suspension to Fudge, but it's more like conversation unless he's hoping Fudge will suggest it DD. 

OoP
- Harry thinks he'll be expelled for blowing up his aunt. Fudge dismisses the idea.


I'm sure Snape never even suggests it in OoP and with Umbridge there, he would have been successful.

Any others?




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  9 14:59:13 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:59:13 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkpv0k+2lc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkrt81+pj42@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188851


Pippin:
He shows that amorality isn't necessarily wedded to a lust for power or the
practice of the dark arts. Gilderoy isn't seeking world domination and he
couldn't curse his way out of a paper bag. He just wants to be famous and sell
lots of books.

In a sense he paves the way for Crouch Sr and other characters who are staunchly
anti-Dark Arts and yet either amoral or morally conflicted.

Alla:
Let me rephrase the question then. Are you saying that in the person of Lockhart this is the lesson Harry learns? Why do you think Harry needed to learn that lesson? How did it help him in the grand scheme of things in the Potterverse? Indeed as Annemehr says I do not see what in the plot could not have been accomplished without Lockhart being there. Do you see it? CoS to me seems to be a pretty important book as an excurse in Tom's past if nothing else, none of it would have been different but for Lockhart, no?

And in what ways do you think Lockhart prequels Crouch Sr.? Are you saying that we are witnessing a change from amoral teacher who is not into Dark arts to amoral official who is not into Dark arts? If that's what you are saying could you please clarify why  Crouch Sr. is amoral in your opinion?  He stroke me as moral in some ways (love for his wife) and completely immoral in so many other ways, but amoral? Amoral means not concerned with morality in either positive or negative ways, right? Just disregarding it completely?

Annemehr:
<SNIP>
I just think, as the plot of this book did not involve any particular need of a
particular DADA teacher, that Lockhart was, literarily, a chance for JKR to have
a little fun with the DADA curse, and to contribute to the necessary general
accumulation of frustration for Harry.

I might even guess that he was just as important to JKR as a chance to poke fun
at someone who drove her nuts as he was in his function in the book itself.

Though I couldn't say if even JKR knows that for sure.

Alla:
See, yes, the fact I am having problems placing Lockhart's as something important within seven books narrative is what making me lean towards your POV. But if she brought Lockhart in specifically to poke fun at RL person, sigh it strikes me as a bit pathetic. I will be the first one to say that I have no problem when writer uses RL people as inspiration for their creations, in fact to me good writer observes people and often does that, combines qualities of several people in one, or sometimes just shows a part of RL person in the character. But when I look at Snape for example and think about her using that teacher as inspiration, I have zero problem with it simply because I have no problem seeing Snape's place in the overall narrative and if she wants to make him based on somebody RL, well, sure, why not, she needs him for the story anyway. Lockhart on the other side? I do not know why she needed him and while I cannot get in her head of course, your explanation seems plausible to me.


JMO,

Alla





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb  9 15:44:03 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:44:03 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkrt81+pj42@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkrvs3+i7cl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188852


> Alla:
> Let me rephrase the question then. Are you saying that in the person of Lockhart this is the lesson Harry learns? Why do you think Harry needed to learn that lesson? How did it help him in the grand scheme of things in the Potterverse? 

Pippin:

Harry has to accept that the world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters. Lockhart is an early illustration of that. 

Taking credit for other people's work is also a big theme in the Half Blood Prince, which, IIRC, was originally conceived for the  plot of CoS. Was Harry any different than Lockhart? If he had continued to pose as a potions genius, would he not also eventually have been exposed? Did Harry become just as caught up in the glow of praise and attention as Lockhart was?

Alla:
> And in what ways do you think Lockhart prequels Crouch Sr.? Are you saying that we are witnessing a change from amoral teacher who is not into Dark arts to amoral official who is not into Dark arts? 

Pippin: 
 Crouch is presented as someone who became so obsessed with maintaining his power that his ability to make moral distinctions deteriorated. It was only when his power was taken away that he was able to see that he'd done wrong.  But in order to comprehend that, and many other characters, even James, Sirius and Dumbledore, we have to understand that opposing the Dark Arts is by no means synonymous with goodness. 

Pippin





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 10 00:01:32 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:01:32 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkrt81+pj42@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkst0s+9uu8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188853

 
> Alla:
><snip>
But if she brought Lockhart in specifically to poke fun at RL person, sigh it strikes me as a bit pathetic. 
<snip>

Annemehr
Well, I doubt it's as bad as all that.  I mean, (1)there had to be *some* DADA teacher, and (2)apparently he was not critical to the plot this time.  So that leaves a wide open hole for her to fill.  Her first decision may well have been to make him incompetent, or a fraud.  There had to be something wrong with him, because of the curse.

Modeling him after a certain person may have come slightly later.  I just wonder if that part eventually became a prime factor in her writing of him, all the more easily so because he is really just a minor character.

Annemehr





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Feb 10 01:52:03 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:52:03 -0000
Subject: List of threats (was Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hkrnfj+jhcn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkt3g3+ao9g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188854



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > 
> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > I am not sure what "all the times" consists of.  We can't properly evaluate his true motives unless we have some kind of a list.  He threatens Harry and Ron in this chapter.  HG cries out that they will surely be expelled for hexing SS in the Shack, and then SS covers for the students by telling Fudge that they were not responsible because they were confunded.  Suspension is not the same as expulsion; he never makes explicit what act he considers worthy of suspension (he seems to be just whining here); and, as noted by others, the students are not given any punishment. Are there any other examples? Someone must know of others. 
> > 
> 
> Potioncat:
> I'll start a list from your post, tossing in any comments about being expelled by other characters.
> 
> PS/SS 
> ch 16--Snapes threatens expulsion for "any more night time wanderings." (this is just after the Trio realize DD is away the the Stone is at risk) In this same chapter McG threatens to take 50 points if they don't stay away from the trapdoor.
> - Hermione says that after what McG and Snape have said, Harry would be expelled for going out at night. So she's going by both teachers. She also thinks she's safe from being expelled because of her grade in Charms.
> 
> -Madam Hooch threatens to expel anyone who gets on a broom.
> - McG says that if anyone acts up in her class they will leave and not come back. (I think she only meant form transfiguration, and I'm sure no one tested it.)
> 
> CoS
> -MoM informs Harry he is at risk of expulsion
> -Whomping Willow Chapter, Snape threatens
> 
> PoA
> - Hermione thinks they'll be expelled in PoA for hexing Snape.
> - Snape may be suggesting suspension to Fudge, but it's more like conversation unless he's hoping Fudge will suggest it DD. 
> 
> OoP
> - Harry thinks he'll be expelled for blowing up his aunt. Fudge dismisses the idea.
> 
> 
> I'm sure Snape never even suggests it in OoP and with Umbridge there, he would have been successful.
> 
> Any others?
>
Nikkalmati

I'm pretty sure Harry would have be expelled in Order of the Phoenix, if he had been found guilty of undewrage magic by the Wizengamoot - not to mention sent to Azkaban.

Nikkalmati




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 10 07:39:55 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:39:55 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkij3h+i09p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hktnsb+u5i0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188855

> Alla:
> 
> First of all thank you for such well thought out and easy to understand post, I definitely had couple of light bulb moments while reading it, I definitely understand the reasoning "why Snape did not want to expel Harry" much better now, I still have few issues with it though and accordingly with reconciling DH with it.

Montavilla47:
You're welcome.  I'm glad I could help.

Alla:
> First and foremost I cannot stress enough that as far as I am concerned  if Snape wants to expel Harry and whatever follows from it means that Snape should be less evil than I view him, not more...

Montavilla47:
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if it's that 
Snape's sincerity in wanting Harry expelled has little bearing
on whether or not he's "evil," then I think I agree.  I mean, 
I suppose he'd be more evil if he wanted Harry *dead.*  But
if you want to think him evil for scaring Harry, rather than 
evil for truly wanting Harry out of Hogwarts, go ahead.  

No skin off my nose.

Alla:
> Moving on to your post.
> 
> I completely totally agree with you  that `Prince's tale" meant to explain Snape's motives (and IMO confirm or shatter some of the beliefs that we had as my belief  and desire of Snape being Voldemort's servant was shattered, but my belief in Snape hating Harry was confirmed in spades).
> 
> So here is what I get from Prince's Tale RE : Snape motives, in no order of importance to me.
> 
> 1.	Snape promised to protect Harry's life.
> 2.	Snape hated Harry.
> 3.	Snape did not want Harry dead (I would think that his desire not see Harry dead evaporated pretty fast, but I fully agree that without Dumbledore's forcing the issue Snape wanted Harry alive for Lily's sake).

Montavilla47:

I agree with all three conclusions.  Including the one about
Snape getting over Harry dying pretty quick!  

Alla:
> What I do **not** see in Prince's tale and what you seem to be seeing there is that Snape's promise to protect Harry became the most important thing for him and something that he on his own without Dumbledore to prompt him into it really wanted to do.

Montavilla47:
Hmm.  Well, I think that his protest to Dumbledore is a
strong indication of the importance he placed on that 
promise.  He seems genuinely shocked, appalled, and then
angry at Dumbledore about the idea of alllowing Harry
to be killed.

If he were simply waiting for that burdensome promise
to be lifted, then I would think he'd be a lot more agreeable
to the idea.


Alla:
> See what I am saying? Where does Prince's tale show that if Snape could he would not have wanted to get out of it? I am NOT disputing that he does not want Harry dead, I totally agree with it. I just do not see that Snape really cares if somebody else will do the protection part IF he could get out of it without breaking promise on technicality.

Montavilla47:
I think you may be right about that.  If, for example, 
Dumbledore had said that McGonagall was taking over the 
job and Snape was free to leave, then I'm sure Snape would 
have loved to jump at that.

But I'm not sure that Dumbledore had the power to free
Snape from the promise, since the promise was only made
to Dumbledore as a proxy to Lily.  As Snape makes clear
in that scene, he's not doing it for Dumbledore.  He's doing 
it for Lily.

Which is why I think (although I have nothing else to back
it up) that it did take Snape some time to reconcile himself
to Dumbledore's final plan.  I think he would have had to 
think it through and decide for himself that *Lily* would have
thought it more important for Voldemort to be gone than for
Harry to live.  

I've never seen anyone tackle that in a story, but it's quite
an emotional journey.  I'd be interested to read something 
like that.


Alla:
> Oh, so I said I had a min light bulb moment and I did and I definitely need to think about this one more, thank you for that, maybe I will eventually talk myself into Snape not wanting Harry expelled lol. See, for some reason in my brain I was trying to reconcile Snape promising to protect Harry v him wanting to expel Harry (in my view) and Snape being upset over Dumbledore wanting Harry dead for some reason was hanging sort of separately, not sure how to explain it better. But as you say this also should be part of the dilemma and this is I guess even harder to reconcile. So anyway, thank you.

Montavilla47:
Again, you're very welcome.


> Montavilla47:
> 
> It seems to me that you are asking people to prove a negative here.
> There are a million times that Snape *doesn't* bring up Harry being
> expelled. For example, he doesn't bring up Harry being expelled for
> breaking into Umbridge's office. Seems like a perfect time. Umbridge
> is aching for an excuse to expel Harry. I'm sure she'd do it if Snape
> asked her.
> 
> He also doesn't bring it up when Harry, Hermione, and Ron attack him
> in PoA.
> 
> He also doesn't bring it up when he thinks Harry has stolen Gillyweed
> from him.
> 
> He doesn't bring it up most of the days he teaches Harry, when he's
> usually mad at Harry for some reason or another.
> 
> The default mode is Snape *not* demanding that Harry be expelled
> (even if he may be *thinking* about it). It's only a few times that he
> does, and those can be explained by other motives than a sincere
> desire to have Harry expelled.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sorry, I do not understand how is that asking people to prove the negative. I am not asking people to prove that there are times when Snape catches Harry when he breaks the rules and does not bring the expulsion, sorry if I gave that impression. I am asking people to prove that he does not bring the expulsion when it is so warranted. Oy, I am looking at my upthread posts and maybe I did not qualify that, sorry. I mean obviously we do not know all Hogwarts rules that warrant expulsion and in fact maybe breaking in Umbridge's office warranted that indeed, I grant you that, or maybe not.  And see my response to Pippin, IMO Snape bringing up suspension during PoA is pretty much the same as bringing up expulsion, that time IMO is definitely very serious and if Snape would not have demanded things there, I would have agreed. Does that make sense? Like I know when In PS Snape takes a book from Harry he does not bring expulsion (well as you know I think he made up that rule, but even if he does not, IMO bringing up expulsion there would have made Snape look crazy).

Montavilla47:
I don't think we can know for sure which offenses are 
worthy of expulsion and which aren't.  I would think that
nearly killing a student is expulsion-worthy.  

On the other hand, it wasn't when Sirius was in school and 
he wasn't the Chosen One!  So, go figure.

Maybe violating the Statute on Underage Magic is a more 
serious crime.  

The only other time I can remember expulsion being officially
on the table is when Hagrid got his wand snapped for raising 
an Acromantula that was accused of killing a student.  He was
supposed to be expelled, but Dumbledore was able to lessen
the sentence and get him hired as a servant of the school.

Oh, and there's the threat of expulsion for getting on a 
broomstick without a teacher present during Hooch's class.  
Something which both Harry and Draco do--but neither are 
expelled for it.  Or even punished.

So, from these examples we know that *killing* a student
is an offense worthy of expulsion.  Nearly killing a student?
Not so much.

We also know that other teachers besides Snape have played
the Expulsion Card in order to bluff.  Which, in my mind, 
strengthens the case that Snape *was* bluffing in CoS.

I'm not so sure that he was bluffing with Fudge.  I think he
was pretty mad.  On the other hand, I've seen it pointed out
that the moment Dumbledore tells Snape (in a slyly coded
question about time-traveling) that Hermione and Harry
misused the time-turner, Snape immediately shuts up.

Now, had Fudge realized that Hermione had misused the
time-turner, she would have been in *real* trouble.  (At least,
that's the way it's described by Herimione when she talks about
how hard it was to get it in the first place--and the strict rules
about using it.)

> Montavilla47:
> To conclude is to examine both premises: That Snape *does* want
> Harry expelled and that Snape *does not* want Harry expelled. Then
> to look at the evidence of the text, weigh the contradictory evidence,
> and *then* decide which is more likely.
> 
> Once we do that, we can address the question of *why* he's either
> bluffing or asking for something that contradicts his vow.
> 
> But we have to start with either one or the other position. No reason
> is going to cover both.
> 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Of course! Snape either wants Harry expelled or he does not. That is not the contradiction I was interested in though. The contradiction was: Snape wants Harry expelled, but also swore to protect him, how that could be reconciled.
> 
> I totally understand how my contradiction is very easily reconciled by Snape indeed NOT wanting Harry expelled, I am just not quite convinced of that yet.
> 

Montavilla47:
No problem!  Take your time. :)





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 10 15:30:06 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:30:06 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hktnsb+u5i0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkujdu+hk07@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188856


Alla:
> First and foremost I cannot stress enough that as far as I am concerned if
Snape wants to expel Harry and whatever follows from it means that Snape should
be less evil than I view him, not more...

Montavilla47:
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if it's that
Snape's sincerity in wanting Harry expelled has little bearing
on whether or not he's "evil," then I think I agree. I mean,
I suppose he'd be more evil if he wanted Harry *dead.* But
if you want to think him evil for scaring Harry, rather than
evil for truly wanting Harry out of Hogwarts, go ahead.

No skin off my nose.

Alla:

Heh, not quite I think. What I am saying is that Snape who sincerely wants Harry out of his sight (providing of course that Harry who is out of his sight stays alive and not dead) is in my eyes less sadistic evil bastard then the one who does not want Harry out of his sight (providing that he wants him in his sight to torment him and not just keep him alive).

Does that make more sense? We both agree that Snape does not want Harry dead. Say we also both agree that Snape does not want Harry expelled and just bluffs. To you (sorry for putting words in your mouth, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that means that Snape does not want Harry expelled because he promised to keep him alive, right? But to me (if I were to agree that is) that means that Snape does not want him expelled also because he gets a joy out of seeing Harry humiliated and in pain. I do not know how to explain it any better.


Montavilla47:
Hmm. Well, I think that his protest to Dumbledore is a
strong indication of the importance he placed on that
promise. He seems genuinely shocked, appalled, and then
angry at Dumbledore about the idea of allowing Harry
to be killed.

If he were simply waiting for that burdensome promise
to be lifted, then I would think he'd be a lot more agreeable
to the idea.

Alla:

See I am missing a step of how "Snape does not want Harry dead" transforms into "Snape and only Snape being able and wanting to protect him". Sure, he is all that you are describing in that scene, but when I say he may want this promise to be lifted, I do not think that means he wants Harry dead, I think he just may be quite happy to put the burden of protecting Harry on somebody else.

Montavilla47:
I think you may be right about that. If, for example,
Dumbledore had said that McGonagall was taking over the
job and Snape was free to leave, then I'm sure Snape would
have loved to jump at that.

Alla:

Exactly! This is **all** I am saying at this point, I think.

Montavilla:
But I'm not sure that Dumbledore had the power to free
Snape from the promise, since the promise was only made
to Dumbledore as a proxy to Lily. As Snape makes clear
in that scene, he's not doing it for Dumbledore. He's doing
it for Lily.

Alla:

Well, I do not think I can agree with that. I mean, sure he does it for Lily as well as he says, what I disagree with is that he is not doing it for Dumbledore. I think agreeing to convince Harry that he needs to die pretty much shows that he is really doing for Dumbledore. We can argue for a long time who is the primary recipient of Snape's promise of course. I can certainly agree that Lily is one of them, I just do not agree that she is the only one and I think that by agreeing with Dumbledore Snape chosen Dumbledore as his main promise holder (if this is even a right expression lol).

Montavilla:
Which is why I think (although I have nothing else to back
it up) that it did take Snape some time to reconcile himself
to Dumbledore's final plan. I think he would have had to
think it through and decide for himself that *Lily* would have
thought it more important for Voldemort to be gone than for
Harry to live. <SNIP>

Alla:

I always thought it took him couple of minutes to reconcile himself  to Dumbledore's plan while he was talking to him and he proceeded to start preparing for the plan, dutiful servant he was. But I realize that conversation ended with Snape not saying anything one way or another, so I cannot disprove what you said. I cannot agree with it either though.

JMO,

Alla






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 10 17:16:11 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:16:11 -0000
Subject: Doing it for LIly was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkujdu+hk07@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkupkr+sonh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188857


> Alla:
> 
> Well, I do not think I can agree with that. I mean, sure he does it for Lily as well as he says, what I disagree with is that he is not doing it for Dumbledore. I think agreeing to convince Harry that he needs to die pretty much shows that he is really doing for Dumbledore.

Pippin:
Snape wasn't asked to do the convincing. He was only told to give Harry the information that Dumbledore had given him. Dumbledore left it  up to Harry to decide how and when to act on it, because only Harry would know when matters were arranged "so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Lord Voldemort."

I think to show that Snape wasn't doing it primarily for Lily, you'd have to show that Harry would be better off not knowing no matter what. Not knowing about the soul bit means he has *no* option for getting rid of it, no matter how strong it becomes. 

Pippin 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 10 17:33:00 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:33:00 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkupkr+sonh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkuqkc+80ve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188858



> > Alla:
> > 
> > Well, I do not think I can agree with that. I mean, sure he does it for Lily as well as he says, what I disagree with is that he is not doing it for Dumbledore. I think agreeing to convince Harry that he needs to die pretty much shows that he is really doing for Dumbledore.
> 
> Pippin:
> Snape wasn't asked to do the convincing. He was only told to give Harry the information that Dumbledore had given him.

Alla:

Yes, I know, to me giving Harry that information pretty much implies convincing. I realize that opinions may differ on that one of course.


Pippin:
Dumbledore left it  up to Harry to decide how and when to act on it, because only Harry would know when matters were arranged "so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Lord Voldemort."

Alla:

Nope, to me "when he does set out to meet his death" means that Dumbledore already decided for him that he is indeed going "to meet his death". Sure, he left technicalities up to Harry (shakes her head) - Dumbledore kindly allowed Harry to decide when to meet his death.

Pippin:
> I think to show that Snape wasn't doing it primarily for Lily, you'd have to show that Harry would be better off not knowing no matter what. Not knowing about the soul bit means he has *no* option for getting rid of it, no matter how strong it becomes. 

Alla:

Really? Well, I disagree. Plain meaning of Dumbledore asking Snape to convey the information which will lead to Harry's death and Snape doing it, means to me that Snape indeed doing it on Dumbledore's request. I am sure Snape can do mental gymnastics and convince himself that he is doing for Lily as well, since she would be happy if WW is saved, but to me that just does not fly. His boss asked him and that's what he does, it is very simple to me.


P.S. I put a question mark in the title simply because while the affirmative may reflect your argument, it does not reflect mine.

JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 10 17:56:02 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:56:02 -0000
Subject: List of threats (was Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hkrnfj+jhcn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkurvi+v9mh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188859



> Potioncat:
> I'll start a list from your post, tossing in any comments about being expelled by other characters.
<SNIP of PS/SS examples>
> CoS
> -MoM informs Harry he is at risk of expulsion
> -Whomping Willow Chapter, Snape threatens
<SNIP>

Alla:

Well, I am going to bookmark your post, it will save me some time for sure heee. I am also thinking that hopefully I can cross out CoS from my list since I am rereading it now for chapter discussions.

So here is not quite threat of expulsion, but something that makes me even more confused, come to think of it, from Writing on the Wall.

Remember when Mrs. Norris is petrified? Of course we do.


So, "Much as he detested Filch, Harry couldn't help feeling a bit sorry for him, though not nearly as sorry as he felt for himself. If Dumbledore believed Filch, he would be expelled for sure. - p.142, paperback

Alla:

So Harry seems to believe that killing of the cat (does not know yet that she is petrified) is worthy of expulsion, yes?

I wish what for sure means here, that he read it in the book or made up, but I digress.

Comes Snape dear, on page 143 he says among other things that "Potter and his friends may have simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time," he said with slight sneer curling his mouth as though he doubted it. "but we do have a set of suspicious circumstances here. Why was he in the upstairs corridor at all? Why wasn't he at the Halloween feast?" 


And then on page 144 he suggests to Dumbledore that Harry is not being entirely truthful and 'It might be a good idea if he were deprived of certain personal privileges untill he is ready to tell us the whole story. I personally feel he should be taken off the Gryffindor Quidditch team until he is ready to be honest" 

And Dumbledore disagrees so here is what I am thinking.

On one hand it seems to be another evidence that Snape really does not want Harry expelled, I mean he is just suggesting to take him off the team, right? But on the other hand, his own words, that he knows that Potter and friends may have been in the wrong place and the wrong time (as they were) suggests to me that ANY punishment here is  not applicable. As Dumbledore says innocent till proven guilty, so Snape does want Harry punished when no punishment is warranted.

So what am I getting at? Simple, if we are saying that Snape is bluffing, well, to me this is the inclination that Snape is always willing to bluff the "other way", to paint Harry's situation and what he did as much worse, not better, thus I just do not see him bluffing to make sure Harry stays in school instead of getting punished. Makes sense or not really?

But then again he does not bring expulsion here, maybe I should just make myself agree that Snape does not want that punishment for Harry. Goodness knows this fits in the picture I have of Snape much better.

Alla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 10 17:58:45 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:58:45 -0000
Subject: Ethics of betrayal was Re: chapter discussion CoS 4 and 5
In-Reply-To: <hknibs+l1ht@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkus4l+qg4v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188860


> 
> Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188783>:
> 
> << But the books show that cruelty does have negative consequences, though they may not become apparent for a long time. And because they may not be apparent, it becomes a matter of faith. One must choose to believe that, in the long run, the personal satisfaction of getting nasty wouldn't be worth it. >>
> 
> I continue to believe that you read the Potter ouevre more subtly than Rowling does. If she intended such subtlety, she concealed her intention by statements made in character as her own self such as that Marietta's spots are not cured because 'I hate a traitor!'.

Pippin:
If people didn't hate traitors, it wouldn't take a hero to show restraint or compassion for them. Hermione's choices show what she is: capable of   restraint and compassion when she deals with Kreacher and Mr. Lovegood, but not such a pureheart that she's incapable of doing anything else.  

The tortured reading, IMO, is the one that interprets all Hermione's actions as evidence of JKR's ideas of moral purity and refuses to admit the possibility of moral growth. 

Catlady:
> 
> It seems to me that Rowling made it utterly clear that she hates only traitors against the good guys, not traitors against the bad guys. In which case, the whole discussion of betrayal versus loyalty is a red herring; the real question is whether you serve the good guys or the bad guys.

Pippin:
It's not a question of good guys or bad guys, it's a question of resisting tyranny and murder. Firenze explained it in PS/SS.
Bane calls him out for violating his oath not to set himself against the heavens, and for serving a human, and says that Centaurs have nothing to do with acting for the best. To which Firenze says, "I set myself against what is lurking  in this Forest, Bane, yes, with humans alongside me if I must."

IMO what Rowling is showing us is that the obligation, or rather the calling, to resist tyranny is beyond every other, and nullifies any obligation in conflict with it, even those to family and friends. Firenze is considered to be a traitor by his people, but he was doing the right thing. Peter, who knew he wasn't acting for the best but only to save his own life, was not. 

Snape isn't morally a traitor to Voldemort, though he certainly would have been treated as one if he'd been caught, because there's no moral obligation to serve a tyrant even if you have sworn eternal loyalty.

 Neville is rewarded for acting against the good guys believing it was for the best. He attempted brute force, but  if he'd used deception instead, he'd have been equally justified and a whole lot smarter. 
 

Pippin




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 10 23:20:50 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:20:50 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkuqkc+80ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkvf0i+lm3i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188861


> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I know, to me giving Harry that information pretty much implies convincing. I realize that opinions may differ on that one of course.


Pippin:
Let's do a thought experiment. Suppose that Harry got to the Shrieking Shack five minutes later, and Snape was  already dead. What would change?

 Voldemort would still call for Harry's surrender, and Harry would still be fed up with letting other people die for him. And he'd still realize that if he chose to die, he'd be able to cast a spell of protection over the other defenders, which would be their only hope, since he couldn't trust Voldemort to keep his word to spare them. The only things Harry wouldn't know about his fate were that choosing to die was the *only* way that Voldemort could become mortal, and  that it was what Dumbledore had always intended him to do.  

But since Harry would choose to meet his death anyway rather than let any more people die for him, it wouldn't have made a difference. 

Voldemort knows nothing of the memories or the soul bit, and he still expects Harry to march into the forest and get himself killed. 

> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Dumbledore left it  up to Harry to decide how and when to act on it, because only Harry would know when matters were arranged "so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Lord Voldemort."
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Nope, to me "when he does set out to meet his death" means that Dumbledore already decided for him that he is indeed going "to meet his death". Sure, he left technicalities up to Harry (shakes her head) - Dumbledore kindly allowed Harry to decide when to meet his death.

Pippin:


When does Dumbledore even say that Harry has an obligation to face Voldemort? Never, IIRC. Harry derives it himself because his parents died to save him.   Does that mean it was wrong for Harry to be told how his parents died? 

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 11 00:36:59 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 00:36:59 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkvf0i+lm3i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkvjfb+opmo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188862


> > Alla:
> > 
> > Yes, I know, to me giving Harry that information pretty much implies convincing. I realize that opinions may differ on that one of course.
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Let's do a thought experiment. Suppose that Harry got to the Shrieking Shack five minutes later, and Snape was  already dead. What would change?
> 
>  Voldemort would still call for Harry's surrender, and Harry would still be fed up with letting other people die for him. And he'd still realize that if he chose to die, he'd be able to cast a spell of protection over the other defenders, which would be their only hope, since he couldn't trust Voldemort to keep his word to spare them. 

Alla:

Well, your hypothetical scenario  is one of the possibilities that could have occurred I suppose, but my scenario would be quite different. Where is canon evidence that Harry would have entertained a scenario, where he needs to die, or I should say where he needs to die not fighting without pushing from Dumbledore.

I certainly agree that Harry would have wanted to be on the first lines of fighting, Dumbledore certainly trained him well for that and I also think that it was in him since the moment he was born to a degree, so I would not go as far as to say that it is all Dumbledore's doing, that Harry wants to fight.

In their little conversation in HBP does not Harry want to go in the pit with the head holding high? Does not Dumbledore support it? Fight Harry, not sacrifice yourself without fight, that was the message I at least got from it.


Pippin:
The only things Harry wouldn't know about his fate were that choosing to die was the *only* way that Voldemort could become mortal, and  that it was what Dumbledore had always intended him to do.  

Alla:

And as I said, to me it would be crucial, I do not see Harry choosing to die without fight. Die in fighting, sure, but that was not Dumbledore's plan.


Pippin:
> But since Harry would choose to meet his death anyway rather than let any more people die for him, it wouldn't have made a difference. 
> 
> Voldemort knows nothing of the memories or the soul bit, and he still expects Harry to march into the forest and get himself killed. 

Alla:

See above. I think Harry would have wanted to fight, but not die without ever raising his wand.


>> Pippin:
> 
> 
> When does Dumbledore even say that Harry has an obligation to face Voldemort? Never, IIRC. Harry derives it himself because his parents died to save him.   Does that mean it was wrong for Harry to be told how his parents died? 


Alla:

It is all of it - time, place and what was shown together which I consider completely, horribly wrong in a morally reprehensible way. If Dumbledore would have wanted to share his suppositions with Harry in OOP, HBP, CoS, PoA, any other book, I would have reacted much much differently. If Dumbledore while having that little chat with Harry in HBP about going into arena with head holding high explained to him about the suspicions he had what may reside in Harry's head, well, I would have felt bad for Harry, but at least I would have thought that Dumbledore may have had some altruistic motives in doing it. Like, oh, I know, sharing the information with Harry and hoping that it may have helped him survive. Like maybe telling Harry, hey you know you have that amazing know it all friend Hermione, who can research everything and anything, I think we may need her help. See Harry I am a bit worried and want to increase your survival possibilities, but I am not sure how, so maybe it is time for you to take research in your own hands.

And if in OOP, when Dumbledore was telling Harry **everything** he decided to show him how his parents died and who was Judas who sold them for thirty silver coins, I would have cheered Dumbledore on, because I would have thought, oh maybe, just maybe, Dumbledore would have decided that Harry, gasps, has a right to know his past and no matter how hard it will be for Dumbledore to handle the fallout, that would be choosing right over easy.

But choosing to force ALL of that on Harry in this particular time, um, no, sorry, to me it is manipulation of the first order, horrible and disgusting. And yes, I know, he did it for greater good. Ugh.

And do you even have to ask the question about when did Dumbledore say that Harry has an obligation to face Voldemort? I think he was saying it multiple times since the first book. I know, Harry wanted to do it too, since he killed his parents. I wonder if Harry still felt same way if he saw all those memories much earlier.

And yes, I know, Harry decided that Dumbledore's plan to have him sacrificed was a good one. Sorry, but to me even when it seems like free choice, years of conditioning should be taken into consideration when evaluating how "free" his choice truly was.

P.S. This whole post is one huge detour from original question though, I am yet to understand how Dumbledore asking Snape to give Harry memories which  will almost definitely lead to his death means that Snape was really doing for Lily, when he is indignant that he thought that they were protecting Lily's son **life** for her just a second ago. 

P.S. Sorry for multiple exclamation thingies in the post, you know that this is directed at Dumbledore, not at you, right? :-)

JMO,

Alla




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 11 01:24:24 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:24:24 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkujdu+hk07@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hkvm88+mv1c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188863



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Alla:
> > First and foremost I cannot stress enough that as far as I am concerned if
> Snape wants to expel Harry and whatever follows from it means that Snape should
> be less evil than I view him, not more...
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if it's that
> Snape's sincerity in wanting Harry expelled has little bearing
> on whether or not he's "evil," then I think I agree. I mean,
> I suppose he'd be more evil if he wanted Harry *dead.* But
> if you want to think him evil for scaring Harry, rather than
> evil for truly wanting Harry out of Hogwarts, go ahead.
> 
> No skin off my nose.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Heh, not quite I think. What I am saying is that Snape who sincerely wants Harry out of his sight (providing of course that Harry who is out of his sight stays alive and not dead) is in my eyes less sadistic evil bastard then the one who does not want Harry out of his sight (providing that he wants him in his sight to torment him and not just keep him alive).
> 
> Does that make more sense? We both agree that Snape does not want Harry dead. Say we also both agree that Snape does not want Harry expelled and just bluffs. To you (sorry for putting words in your mouth, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that means that Snape does not want Harry expelled because he promised to keep him alive, right? But to me (if I were to agree that is) that means that Snape does not want him expelled also because he gets a joy out of seeing Harry humiliated and in pain. I do not know how to explain it any better.
> 

Montavilla47:

Ah!  Got it!  You explained it EXCELLENTLY.  And I'm in 
awe of the ways you keep coming up with to keep Snape
evil!

Seriously.  I love that idea, even if I don't buy it.  I think
Snape would love it best if Harry were safely far, far 
away from him.

But I also think that he knows that isn't going to happen,
so he's just got to bite the bullet and try to educate the 
little brat.


> Montavilla:
> But I'm not sure that Dumbledore had the power to free
> Snape from the promise, since the promise was only made
> to Dumbledore as a proxy to Lily. As Snape makes clear
> in that scene, he's not doing it for Dumbledore. He's doing
> it for Lily.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, I do not think I can agree with that. I mean, sure he does it for Lily as well as he says, what I disagree with is that he is not doing it for Dumbledore. I think agreeing to convince Harry that he needs to die pretty much shows that he is really doing for Dumbledore. We can argue for a long time who is the primary recipient of Snape's promise of course. I can certainly agree that Lily is one of them, I just do not agree that she is the only one and I think that by agreeing with Dumbledore Snape chosen Dumbledore as his main promise holder (if this is even a right expression lol).


Montavilla47:
I think this is the central dilemma that Snape faces after
Dumbledore tells him the real (or "realish") plan.  He's been
basing this all along on doing it for Lily (because Dumbledore
has told him that's the only thing he can possibly do to make
it up to her).  Now he's forced to choose between that 
old idea and the new idea that it's more important to have
Harry die than to keep Harry alive.  

That might be why Dumbledore brings up all the people
Snape watched die.  He knows that Snape has taken on
a bit of a "saving people thing" and he's counting on that
to persuade Snape to help in Harry's sacrifice.

> 
> Montavilla:
> Which is why I think (although I have nothing else to back
> it up) that it did take Snape some time to reconcile himself
> to Dumbledore's final plan. I think he would have had to
> think it through and decide for himself that *Lily* would have
> thought it more important for Voldemort to be gone than for
> Harry to live. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I always thought it took him couple of minutes to reconcile himself  to Dumbledore's plan while he was talking to him and he proceeded to start preparing for the plan, dutiful servant he was. But I realize that conversation ended with Snape not saying anything one way or another, so I cannot disprove what you said. I cannot agree with it either though.

Montavilla47:

Right.  It ends with Snape vehemently denying his allegiance
to the "Greater Good" and reaffirming his allegiance to Lily.

"ALWAYS!" he shouts, as he produces his doe patronus.  It was
*always* for Lily.

But the next time we see him, he's dutifully taking orders from
Dumbledore's portrait.  So, in between those two moments (which
took place months apart in time--the argument took place just 
before March and the portait conversation took place in mid-July),
Snape realized that Dumbledore was right and that he needed to
stick to the plan.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Feb 11 12:35:00 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:35:00 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkujdu+hk07@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl0thk+mi6s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188864


> 
> Alla:
> 
> Heh, not quite I think. What I am saying is that Snape who sincerely wants Harry out of his sight (providing of course that Harry who is out of his sight stays alive and not dead) is in my eyes less sadistic evil bastard then the one who does not want Harry out of his sight (providing that he wants him in his sight to torment him and not just keep him alive).

Potioncat:
Uh, so you're saying that Harry is Snape's boy toy? That expelling Harry would be something of a sacrifice for Snape and therefore noble? 

I don't believe that Snape enjoys Harry's presence at all and would be glad to avoid him entirely. If he gets any satisfaction out of Harry's discomfort, it's the same that we get out of seeing a bad guy suffer. (So like you feel when Snape is discomforted; or like I feel when Nagini gets killed.)





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Feb 11 13:14:50 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:14:50 -0000
Subject: no question (was Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkuqkc+80ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl0vsa+ql82@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188865



> Alla:
> Really? Well, I disagree. Plain meaning of Dumbledore asking Snape to convey the information which will lead to Harry's death and Snape doing it, means to me that Snape indeed doing it on Dumbledore's request. I am sure Snape can do mental gymnastics and convince himself that he is doing for Lily as well, since she would be happy if WW is saved, but to me that just does not fly. His boss asked him and that's what he does, it is very simple to me.

Potioncat:
People aren't static; relationships, commitments and plans all evolve over time. 

We see a distraught Severus commit to living so that he can protect Harry to honor Lily's sacrifice. He's doing this for Lily at Dumbledore's urging.  During Harry's years at Hogwarts we see Snape trying to keep Harry safe. (Not that he has the best approach.) His main role is to keep Harry safe from LV; and in a few  years we will see Snape resume his role as double agent. His protection of Harry becomes making efforts to defeat the DEs. Defeating LV wasn't what he agreed to that first night. He follows DD's orders to that end. He even agrees to kill DD?and that certainly wasn't in the promise that first night.

In the conversation in which DD finally tells Snape that Harry must die, Snape says three times that he had been protecting Harry for Lily?with the final declaration the Patronus and "Always". (Three is a powerful number in Biblical terms---Do you love me, Peter?)

Imho, while the methods and outcomes changed over the years, Snape's motive was to protect Harry for Lily.  At the point in HBP that DD tells Snape what Harry must do, Snape's role becomes to protect Harry and to provide Harry with the tools to defeat LV. I think he's still doing it for Lily, and I think Lily approved of Snape's decision.  Lily, James, Remus and Sirius were supporting Harry as he went to face LV.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 11 15:31:01 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:31:01 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl0thk+mi6s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl17rl+t4rk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188866


Potioncat:
Uh, so you're saying that Harry is Snape's boy toy?:

Alla:
Well, depends on what meaning you put in "Boy toy" ;). I do not think Snape  was taking him to bed, no (that's what boy toy means to me and I could be wrong).

But if your meaning of "boy toy" is a kid and later a teenager whose sufferings Snape is enjoying, yes, definitely, I guess I could call Harry Snape's boy toy then.

Potioncat:
That expelling Harry would
be something of a sacrifice for Snape and therefore noble?

Alla:

If he knows that Harry would be safe, yes, in a sense I think so, that would be Snape controlling his darker impulses to make Harry suffer.

Potioncat:
I don't believe that Snape enjoys Harry's presence at all and would be glad to
avoid him entirely. 

Alla:
See, you guys are funny. (you and Montavilla, I mean, since she expressed the similar thought). So now Snape indeed would have wanted Harry out of sight if it could have been done safely? How is it different from what I had been arguing all along? That Snape does not want Harry dead, but he would have loved to get out of his promise if he knew that somebody else (or something else for all I care) Could you please elaborate on how is it different from my position?

But you know, all of you guys had been doing such a good job in convincing me that Snape does not want Harry expelled, that I am almost convinced.  

Potioncat:
If he gets any satisfaction out of Harry's discomfort, it's
the same that we get out of seeing a bad guy suffer. (So like you feel when
Snape is discomforted; or like I feel when Nagini gets killed.)


Alla:

Aren't you making my point here? If you are saying that Snape considers **Harry** a bad guy here and thus gets a satisfaction of his sufferings (I know you said discomfort, but in my book it is so much more than that), that"s pretty perverse by itself in my opinion. Am I supposed to view him as less sadistic because he thinks that boy whom he had a hand in depriving of happy childhood and tormented through school is a bad guy??? That's some nerve dear Severus have had then.

JMO,

Alla






From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 11 16:50:10 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:50:10 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl17rl+t4rk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl1cg2+7ol1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188867


> Potioncat:
> That expelling Harry would
> be something of a sacrifice for Snape and therefore noble?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> If he knows that Harry would be safe, yes, in a sense I think so, that would be Snape controlling his darker impulses to make Harry suffer.

Montavilla47:
Wow.  If Snape isn't controlling his darker impulses to make 
Harry suffer already, then Snape has the weeniest dark 
impulses in the world.  I mean, what does Harry's suffering at 
Snape's hands consist of?  Some snide remarks about the 
quality of Harry's classwork, some digs at his celebrity 
status, and detentions (when he catches Harry breaking
rules).

Or maybe I'm just underestimating the suffering of a
sixteen year old boy who misses out on an hour of 
making out with his girlfriend.


> Potioncat:
> I don't believe that Snape enjoys Harry's presence at all and would be glad to
> avoid him entirely. 
> 
> Alla:
> See, you guys are funny. (you and Montavilla, I mean, since she expressed the similar thought). So now Snape indeed would have wanted Harry out of sight if it could have been done safely? How is it different from what I had been arguing all along? That Snape does not want Harry dead, but he would have loved to get out of his promise if he knew that somebody else (or something else for all I care) Could you please elaborate on how is it different from my position?

Montavilla47:
I don't think it's all that different, to be honest.  The only
difference that I can see is that I'm taking into account an
opposing force in Snape's psyche--which is his sense of 
duty to Dumbledore OR Lily, take your pick, which overrides
his desire to keep Harry as far away as possible.

And, also, although I find the idea that Snape loves
tormenting Harry so much that it would pain him
to send the kid away amusing, I don't actually think
that's what's going on.  I'm sure that Snape gets a 
bit of a thrill in exercising his authority over Harry, but 
I also think he justifies it to himself by saying that it's
for the kid's own good--that Harry needs some strong
guidelines and discipline.

So, I think Snape's *conscious* motivation is to be a
good, strong teacher to Harry.  Unfortunately, he has
this prejudice against Harry because of Harry's father and
that really gets in the way.  So, Snape isn't as fair or
objective as he would like to believe that he is.

But, he's hardly the only teacher to view Harry through
a James or Lily filter.  Many of Harry's teachers do so,
notably Hagrid, McGonagall (who is probably thinking 
a little about James's Quidditch prowess when she 
pushes Harry onto the team), Flitwick (who *faints* when
he sees Harry in his class for the first time), and Slughorn,
who can't stop talking about Lily.

Hagrid also seems to view Draco through a Lucius 
filter.  He's as rude to Draco in class as Snape is to
Harry.  Snape may also be seeing Lucius in Draco,
although I don't get that vibe as strongly as other 
people seem to.  






From lealess at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 11 16:58:41 2010
From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:58:41 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl17rl+t4rk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl1d01+slv6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188868



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Potioncat:
> I don't believe that Snape enjoys Harry's presence at all and would > be glad to avoid him entirely. 
> 
> Alla:
> See, you guys are funny. (you and Montavilla, I mean, since she
> expressed the similar thought). So now Snape indeed would have
> wanted Harry out of sight if it could have been done safely?
> How is it different from what I had been arguing all along? That
> Snape does not want Harry dead, but he would have loved to get out
> of his promise if he knew that somebody else (or something else for
> all I care) Could you please elaborate on how is it different from
> my position?
> 
> But you know, all of you guys had been doing such a good job in
> convincing me that Snape does not want Harry expelled, that I am
> almost convinced.  
> 

I think that what people are saying is the IF Snape wanted Potter expelled, his motivation was Potter's safety, NOT to get out of a promise he found onerous.  IF he wanted Potter expelled.

In fact, Snape worked tirelessly to keep an eye on Potter and was even said to save his life or keep him from harm a time or two.  Snape apparently dropped the threats of expulsion when he could see that (1) they had no effect in changing Potter's behavior and (2) it was too dangerous for Potter in Muggleland despite his mother's blood protection, which didn't seem to affect Dementors.  So whether or not the threats of expulsion were serious (which I doubt since other teachers used the threat early on, and how many students were ever expelled), Snape's overriding motivation was always to protect Harry because he believed that was what Lily would want him to do.

lealess




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 11 17:09:41 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:09:41 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl1cg2+7ol1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl1dkl+kn31@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188869





> Montavilla47:
> Wow.  If Snape isn't controlling his darker impulses to make 
> Harry suffer already, then Snape has the weeniest dark 
> impulses in the world.  I mean, what does Harry's suffering at 
> Snape's hands consist of?  Some snide remarks about the 
> quality of Harry's classwork, some digs at his celebrity 
> status, and detentions (when he catches Harry breaking
> rules).
> 
> Or maybe I'm just underestimating the suffering of a
> sixteen year old boy who misses out on an hour of 
> making out with his girlfriend.

Alla:

Yes, I definitely think you ARE underestimating Harry's sufferings at Snape's hand, IMO of course, since your list is so very incomplete. I am really not in the mood right now to debate how much Snape really makes Harry suffer, but I can add a thing or two to your list.

How about thirteen year old who desperately wants his father to be here to hear his teacher, his teacher of all people to talk that horribly about his father, to whose death Snape contributed? No, I do not care if Snape was hundred percent right, he still had no business doing it in my opinion. 

How about Snape making Harry walk through Great Hall without letting him wash blood of his face? Yes, I think that was that much of deliberate humiliation. I can go on and on and on, but as I said, I really do not want to right now.

So, yes, I think Snape would be controlling his darker impulses if he would want Harry far away from him, safely that is.

 
> 
> > Potioncat:
> > I don't believe that Snape enjoys Harry's presence at all and would be glad to
> > avoid him entirely. 
> > 
> > Alla:
> > See, you guys are funny. (you and Montavilla, I mean, since she expressed the similar thought). So now Snape indeed would have wanted Harry out of sight if it could have been done safely? How is it different from what I had been arguing all along? That Snape does not want Harry dead, but he would have loved to get out of his promise if he knew that somebody else (or something else for all I care) Could you please elaborate on how is it different from my position?
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I don't think it's all that different, to be honest.  The only
> difference that I can see is that I'm taking into account an
> opposing force in Snape's psyche--which is his sense of 
> duty to Dumbledore OR Lily, take your pick, which overrides
> his desire to keep Harry as far away as possible.

Alla:

Ah, ok, good to know. So we are basically in agreement lol, except on what force in his psyche dominates I guess.


Montavilla:
> And, also, although I find the idea that Snape loves
> tormenting Harry so much that it would pain him
> to send the kid away amusing, I don't actually think
> that's what's going on.  I'm sure that Snape gets a 
> bit of a thrill in exercising his authority over Harry, but 
> I also think he justifies it to himself by saying that it's
> for the kid's own good--that Harry needs some strong
> guidelines and discipline.

Alla:

I have no doubt that Snape justifies everything he does in his mind.


Montavilla:
> So, I think Snape's *conscious* motivation is to be a
> good, strong teacher to Harry.  Unfortunately, he has
> this prejudice against Harry because of Harry's father and
> that really gets in the way.  So, Snape isn't as fair or
> objective as he would like to believe that he is.

Alla:

Yes.

Montavilla: 
> But, he's hardly the only teacher to view Harry through
> a James or Lily filter.  Many of Harry's teachers do so,
> notably Hagrid, McGonagall (who is probably thinking 
> a little about James's Quidditch prowess when she 
> pushes Harry onto the team), Flitwick (who *faints* when
> he sees Harry in his class for the first time), and Slughorn,
> who can't stop talking about Lily.

Alla:

He is the only teacher though to abuse Harry (IMO of course) because he views him from James' filter and while I agree about your examples to a degree, I think all other teachers get over James' filter pretty darn fast. It sure does not stop McGonagall from taking fifty points from Harry for example.

Montavilla:
> Hagrid also seems to view Draco through a Lucius 
> filter.  He's as rude to Draco in class as Snape is to
> Harry.  Snape may also be seeing Lucius in Draco,
> although I don't get that vibe as strongly as other 
> people seem to.
>

Alla:

Does he though? I thought Draco said enough rude things to Hagrid in order for Hagrid to view him as Draco and react the way he does.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Feb 11 18:58:30 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:58:30 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkvjfb+opmo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl1k0m+uc7i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188870

 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, your hypothetical scenario  is one of the possibilities that could have occurred I suppose, but my scenario would be quite different. Where is canon evidence that Harry would have entertained a scenario, where he needs to die, or I should say where he needs to die not fighting without pushing from Dumbledore.

Pippin:
It was on the table from the moment Riddle confirmed that Lily's death was the countercurse. Dumbledore didn't give him that information. Harry figured it out for himself, under pressure from Riddle in the Chamber.  

"But I know why you couldn't *kill* me. Because my mother died to save me." 

We thought, silly us, that it was the magic of mother love. But it was the magic of willing sacrifice. IMO, Harry had that worked out a long time before we did.

Alla:
> In their little conversation in HBP does not Harry want to go in the pit with the head holding high? Does not Dumbledore support it? Fight Harry, not sacrifice yourself without fight, that was the message I at least got from it.

Pippin:
Um, I guess it depends on whether the context for the arena is gladiator versus gladiator.   or Christians vs lions. Gladiators got to fight for their lives but the Christians never had a chance. Nonetheless they went willingly and showed no fear.  That was the context as I read it, especially in light of DH.

Alla: 
> But choosing to force ALL of that on Harry in this particular time, um, no, sorry, to me it is manipulation of the first order, horrible and disgusting. And yes, I know, he did it for greater good. Ugh.
<snip>
> 
> And yes, I know, Harry decided that Dumbledore's plan to have him sacrificed was a good one. Sorry, but to me even when it seems like free choice, years of conditioning should be taken into consideration when evaluating how "free" his choice truly was.

Pippin:
Conditioning to do what? To obey Dumbledore? If Harry was conditioned to obey Dumbledore, or to sacrifice his life whenever Dumbledore said it was time, then Dumbledore could have just told him what to do, without all that stuff about the Hallows. Harry was conditioned to think that Dumbledore wanted what was best for him, yes. And that wasn't entirely true.
 
But there was nothing stopping Harry from deciding that he should knock Voldemort out of his body to destroy his powers, kill Nagini  and then  spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder until he, Harry, had died of natural causes. But that wasn't the kind of life Harry wanted. Who would?

Alla: 
> P.S. This whole post is one huge detour from original question though, I am yet to understand how Dumbledore asking Snape to give Harry memories which  will almost definitely lead to his death means that Snape was really doing for Lily, when he is indignant that he thought that they were protecting Lily's son **life** for her just a second ago. 
> 

Pippin:
Until some uncertain time in the future when Voldemort starts showing special care for his snake, the mission is still to keep Harry alive, and Snape has nothing to gain by not letting Dumbledore help him do it. 

Dumbledore did not arrange for Snape to give Harry his memories. It was Snape who chose to reveal that Dumbledore had used him, that he had manipulated the Order in the Twelve Potters scheme, and that it was Snape and not Dumbledore who had come up with the plan to get the sword to Harry in the proper way.  

Snape goes out of his way to show Harry that there's nothing sacred about Dumbledore's plans.

But...Snape cannot protect Harry from the soul bit. It's clearly a danger to Harry apart from whatever Voldemort himself might do. Snape obviously doesn't know of any other way that a soul bit could be destroyed.  Snape himself is dying. So how can he be sure he's done his utmost to fulfill his promise to protect Harry if he doesn't let know Harry what Dumbledore's plan was supposed to be?

Pippin







From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 11 20:23:58 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:23:58 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl1dkl+kn31@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl1p0u+jh4e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188871

> > Montavilla47:
> > Wow.  If Snape isn't controlling his darker impulses to make 
> > Harry suffer already, then Snape has the weeniest dark 
> > impulses in the world.  I mean, what does Harry's suffering at 
> > Snape's hands consist of?  Some snide remarks about the 
> > quality of Harry's classwork, some digs at his celebrity 
> > status, and detentions (when he catches Harry breaking
> > rules).
> > 
> > Or maybe I'm just underestimating the suffering of a
> > sixteen year old boy who misses out on an hour of 
> > making out with his girlfriend.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I definitely think you ARE underestimating Harry's sufferings at Snape's hand, IMO of course, since your list is so very incomplete. I am really not in the mood right now to debate how much Snape really makes Harry suffer, but I can add a thing or two to your list.
> 
> How about thirteen year old who desperately wants his father to be here to hear his teacher, his teacher of all people to talk that horribly about his father, to whose death Snape contributed? No, I do not care if Snape was hundred percent right, he still had no business doing it in my opinion. 

Montavilla47:

At the time, Harry didn't know that Snape was involved in
his parents' deaths, so I don't think that could have been
part of his suffering.  But I thought I covered this incident
under "snide remarks," because that's all it really amounts 
to.  And, like Aunt Marge's snide remark about James, it's 
something that only causes suffering if you allow it to.

Harry has plenty of people who would love to praise James
to him.  If he suffers that much from hearing one or two
bad things about his father, he just has to go have tea 
with Hagrid in order to sooth his tormented soul.


Alla:
> How about Snape making Harry walk through Great Hall without letting him wash blood of his face? Yes, I think that was that much of deliberate humiliation. I can go on and on and on, but as I said, I really do not want to right now.

Montavilla47:
Didn't Harry express a desire just before then to do just
that in the hopes that people would think he'd done something
heroic--rather than be beaten up by Draco?  

I admit it's a really jerk move by Snape, but it's hardly the
worst thing that's happened to Harry that day--or that 
hour, come to think of it.  

And, as I recall, the only people who even notice Harry are 
Ron and Hermione. 


Alla:
> So, yes, I think Snape would be controlling his darker impulses if he would want Harry far away from him, safely that is.

Montavilla47:
Okay.

> 
> Montavilla: 
> > But, he's hardly the only teacher to view Harry through
> > a James or Lily filter.  Many of Harry's teachers do so,
> > notably Hagrid, McGonagall (who is probably thinking 
> > a little about James's Quidditch prowess when she 
> > pushes Harry onto the team), Flitwick (who *faints* when
> > he sees Harry in his class for the first time), and Slughorn,
> > who can't stop talking about Lily.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> He is the only teacher though to abuse Harry (IMO of course) because he views him from James' filter and while I agree about your examples to a degree, I think all other teachers get over James' filter pretty darn fast. It sure does not stop McGonagall from taking fifty points from Harry for example.

Montavilla47:
Actually, I think McGonagall is using the James
filter there.  Remember that James and Sirius were 
notorious rule-breakers in school.  It may very well
be that McGonagall is trying to nip that aspect of 
James in Harry in the bud.


> Montavilla:
> > Hagrid also seems to view Draco through a Lucius 
> > filter.  He's as rude to Draco in class as Snape is to
> > Harry.  Snape may also be seeing Lucius in Draco,
> > although I don't get that vibe as strongly as other 
> > people seem to.
> >
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Does he though? I thought Draco said enough rude things to Hagrid in order for Hagrid to view him as Draco and react the way he does.
>
Montavilla47:
Well, Draco is very rude to Hagrid.  You may be right
about that.  But I get the feeling that Hagrid's dislike of
Draco is based on more than the kid being rude.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 11 21:45:04 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:45:04 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl1p0u+jh4e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl1tp0+bfq7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188872


Montavilla47:

At the time, Harry didn't know that Snape was involved in
his parents' deaths, so I don't think that could have been
part of his suffering. But I thought I covered this incident
under "snide remarks," because that's all it really amounts
to. And, like Aunt Marge's snide remark about James, it's
something that only causes suffering if you allow it to.

Harry has plenty of people who would love to praise James
to him. If he suffers that much from hearing one or two
bad things about his father, he just has to go have tea
with Hagrid in order to sooth his tormented soul.

Alla:

I think you are downplaying the power of words, the hurtful words, the hateful words. I always thought that "words can kill" is not just a metaphor. 
It was up to Harry to not let hurtful "snide remarks" to get to him?  If Harry would not have let those remarks get to him, does that make Snape shooting his mouth off any better?  The fact that the recipient of the verbal abuse (I hope I stated enough in the past that qualifying Snape's actions as abuse is my opinion, so I am not going to put it up every time) can "tough it up" (or whatever expression is the right one) and show a chin up face to the world to me does not make the actions of the abuser better in the slightest. Yes, Harry did not know that Snape played a part in his parents' deaths, very true.  This is just an added extra layer of disgust for me as a reader when I reread it after DH. But at the time Harry knows perfectly well that his parents are dead and he misses them like crazy and wants them with him and he is just thirteen and here is Snape, who is his teacher and who badmouths his father at him. Yes, to me sounds like plenty to be upset about. 

As an aside I just realized something, I know I stated it in the past that Snape's character types are usually my favorite characters and it bothered me that I could not feel same way about Snape. I also stated in the past that I figured out that all the characters I love could have been as sarcastic and rude as they wanted to, only they did it to their equals and I loved every second of it. Anyway, I just realized that Snape does not even do that.  Let me explain, I always thought that while Snape abuses children verbally, he is equally rude to the adults and I just had an epiphany. No, he is not IMO. I mean, he IS to some adults, but only to those beneath them.  He is rude to Gilderoy, but everybody despises Gilderoy and deservingly so.  He is rude to Sirius but Sirius' position is certainly beneath him in OOP IMO. He is not CHEERFUL with everybody but he is never rude to Minerva, he is never rude to Dumbledore, in other words he is never ever rude to higher ups. So he does not even have the devil may care attitude, he does not want to run his mouth at those who have more power than he did, only to those who are beneath him.

I mean even in HBP when he argues with Dumbledore and more than once does he ever say something demeaning to Dumbledore?

And is he ever rude to Fudge?  Anybody please feel free to correct me of course.


Montavilla47:
Didn't Harry express a desire just before then to do just
that in the hopes that people would think he'd done something
heroic--rather than be beaten up by Draco?

I admit it's a really jerk move by Snape, but it's hardly the
worst thing that's happened to Harry that day--or that
hour, come to think of it.

And, as I recall, the only people who even notice Harry are
Ron and Hermione.

Alla:
Yes and what happened to Harry at the hands of Umbridge was much worse physically than what Snape ever did to him (I still think that emotionally they are not too far from each other).  How is this relevant in evaluating Snape's actions on its own? I do not care about who noticed Harry, I do not care that much worse happened to him that day, I honestly and truly do not think that this is relevant in the slightest to what Snape intended to do to him. And to me he intended to humiliate him and badly.



Alla:
>
> Does he though? I thought Draco said enough rude things to Hagrid in order for
Hagrid to view him as Draco and react the way he does.
>
Montavilla47:
Well, Draco is very rude to Hagrid. You may be right
about that. But I get the feeling that Hagrid's dislike of
Draco is based on more than the kid being rude.


Alla:

That's not  quite my feeling, no. I mean I know we have that quote from Hagrid about Malfoys' bad blood, but by that time he already observed Draco in action in school for a year, I think he has plenty of reasons to dislike Draco for who he is, Lucius notwithstanding. Although I suppose I would put it in 95/5 percentage ? 95 being for Draco being who he is. This is Draco who despises Hagrid without **ever seeing him** already, so if he comes to school and talks nearly as bad as he talks to Harry in the shop, I would say Hagrid has every reason to despise Draco for being Draco Malfoy.

However, however having said that  I certainly cannot get in Hagrid's head and if he despises Draco for being Lucius's son first and foremost, then I absolutely think he is being just as wrong as Snape for despising Harry for being James' son.







From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 11 23:47:18 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:47:18 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl1tp0+bfq7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl24u6+d06d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188873

> Montavilla47:
> 
> At the time, Harry didn't know that Snape was involved in
> his parents' deaths, so I don't think that could have been
> part of his suffering. But I thought I covered this incident
> under "snide remarks," because that's all it really amounts
> to. And, like Aunt Marge's snide remark about James, it's
> something that only causes suffering if you allow it to.
> 
> Harry has plenty of people who would love to praise James
> to him. If he suffers that much from hearing one or two
> bad things about his father, he just has to go have tea
> with Hagrid in order to sooth his tormented soul.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I think you are downplaying the power of words, the hurtful words, the hateful words. I always thought that "words can kill" is not just a metaphor. 
> It was up to Harry to not let hurtful "snide remarks" to get to him?  If Harry would not have let those remarks get to him, does that make Snape shooting his mouth off any better?  The fact that the recipient of the verbal abuse (I hope I stated enough in the past that qualifying Snape's actions as abuse is my opinion, so I am not going to put it up every time) can "tough it up" (or whatever expression is the right one) and show a chin up face to the world to me does not make the actions of the abuser better in the slightest. Yes, Harry did not know that Snape played a part in his parents' deaths, very true.  This is just an added extra layer of disgust for me as a reader when I reread it after DH. But at the time Harry knows perfectly well that his parents are dead and he misses them like crazy and wants them with him and he is just thirteen and here is Snape, who is his teacher and who badmouths his father at him. Yes, to me sounds like plenty to be upset about. 

Montavilla47:
I think we'll have to keep on disagreeing about whether
this remark amounts to abuse or not.  My dad is dead and I 
miss him alot, but if someone said mean about him, I would
think about the many, many people who loved him and have
told me what a great guy he was.

That's just something people tend to learn.  That's what 
schoolyards and gym class are for, aren't they?

Alla:
> As an aside I just realized something, I know I stated it in the past that Snape's character types are usually my favorite characters and it bothered me that I could not feel same way about Snape. I also stated in the past that I figured out that all the characters I love could have been as sarcastic and rude as they wanted to, only they did it to their equals and I loved every second of it. Anyway, I just realized that Snape does not even do that.  Let me explain, I always thought that while Snape abuses children verbally, he is equally rude to the adults and I just had an epiphany. No, he is not IMO. I mean, he IS to some adults, but only to those beneath them.  He is rude to Gilderoy, but everybody despises Gilderoy and deservingly so.  He is rude to Sirius but Sirius' position is certainly beneath him in OOP IMO. He is not CHEERFUL with everybody but he is never rude to Minerva, he is never rude to Dumbledore, in other words he is never ever rude to higher ups. So he does not even have the devil may care attitude, he does not want to run his mouth at those who have more power than he did, only to those who are beneath him.

Montavilla47:
You're right that he's never rude to Minerva or Dumbledore, even 
when he's "above" Minerva in DH.  On the other hand, she's pretty
darn rude to him at that moment.

When is he *rude* to Gilderoy, exactly?  When he insists on his 
place as Potions Master?  I don't recall him being anything but 
scrupulously polite--overly polite, really--at other times.

As for Sirius, I don't think he's ever "above" Sirius.  I certainly
don't think that if you asked anyone in the Order of the Phoenix
where the two stood in status within the group that they'd say
Snape was above Sirius.

Alla:
> I mean even in HBP when he argues with Dumbledore and more than once does he ever say something demeaning to Dumbledore?
> 
> And is he ever rude to Fudge?  Anybody please feel free to correct me of course.

Montavilla47:
I don't think he ever was rude to Fudge or Dumbledore.
At most, he was *vehement* when he thrust his forearm in
Fudge's face.  Fudge was, of course, taken aback by that.  But
I wouldn't call Snape rude at that moment.

> Montavilla47:
> Didn't Harry express a desire just before then to do just
> that in the hopes that people would think he'd done something
> heroic--rather than be beaten up by Draco?
> 
> I admit it's a really jerk move by Snape, but it's hardly the
> worst thing that's happened to Harry that day--or that
> hour, come to think of it.
> 
> And, as I recall, the only people who even notice Harry are
> Ron and Hermione.
> 
> Alla:
> Yes and what happened to Harry at the hands of Umbridge was much worse physically than what Snape ever did to him (I still think that emotionally they are not too far from each other).  How is this relevant in evaluating Snape's actions on its own? I do not care about who noticed Harry, I do not care that much worse happened to him that day, I honestly and truly do not think that this is relevant in the slightest to what Snape intended to do to him. And to me he intended to humiliate him and badly.

Montavilla47:
He probably did.  But he didn't really manage to do that,
did he?  Which brings us back to the idea of "weenie" dark
impulses.

I think was Mike Smith who mocked Snape as "Snape:  The
Villain Who Assigns Extra Homework!"  

Seriously.  As a bad guy, Snape's on about the level of
the principal in Ferrous Beuller's Day Off.  Or Wiley E. Coyote.



> Alla:
> >
> > Does he though? I thought Draco said enough rude things to Hagrid in order for
> Hagrid to view him as Draco and react the way he does.
> >
> Montavilla47:
> Well, Draco is very rude to Hagrid. You may be right
> about that. But I get the feeling that Hagrid's dislike of
> Draco is based on more than the kid being rude.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That's not  quite my feeling, no. I mean I know we have that quote from Hagrid about Malfoys' bad blood, but by that time he already observed Draco in action in school for a year, I think he has plenty of reasons to dislike Draco for who he is, Lucius notwithstanding. Although I suppose I would put it in 95/5 percentage ? 95 being for Draco being who he is. This is Draco who despises Hagrid without **ever seeing him** already, so if he comes to school and talks nearly as bad as he talks to Harry in the shop, I would say Hagrid has every reason to despise Draco for being Draco Malfoy.
> 
> However, however having said that  I certainly cannot get in Hagrid's head and if he despises Draco for being Lucius's son first and foremost, then I absolutely think he is being just as wrong as Snape for despising Harry for being James' son.
>
Montavilla47:
Oh!  That reminds me of another teacher.  Croody.  His
whole relationship to Draco is based on his hatred of 
Lucius.  

Something which doesn't seem to bother anybody
at Hogwarts.  Almost as if such built-in antipathy 
were part of the system.







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Feb 12 00:21:38 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 00:21:38 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl17rl+t4rk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl26ui+5va0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188874



> Alla:
> Well, depends on what meaning you put in "Boy toy" ;). I do not think Snape  was taking him to bed, no (that's what boy toy means to me and I could be wrong).
> 
> But if your meaning of "boy toy" is a kid and later a teenager whose sufferings Snape is enjoying, yes, definitely, I guess I could call Harry Snape's boy toy then.

potioncat:
As you describe Snape, it sounds as if he get such thrill from torturing Harry, that it would be a huge effort on his part to send the boy away. That abusing Harry is so much fun, Snape seeks out opportunities to engage in the behavior just for fun, and would hate to see it end.

I used boy toy because sadism has a sexual aspect, and that sounds like what your post is implying. (or what I'm inferring from your post.)


> 
> Alla:
> See, you guys are funny. (you and Montavilla, I mean, since she expressed the similar thought). So now Snape indeed would have wanted Harry out of sight if it could have been done safely? How is it different from what I had been arguing all along? That Snape does not want Harry dead, but he would have loved to get out of his promise if he knew that somebody else (or something else for all I care) Could you please elaborate on how is it different from my position?

Potioncat:
My pov is that Snape does not like Harry, does not want to be around him, but has made a committment to Lily's memory to protect the boy. I don't think Snape ever tries to slither out of his promise. Nor do I think he gets pleasure out of "abusing" Harry--in the sense that it's something he seeks to do. I think he is mean to Harry because that what Snape is, what he learned at home. And much of his meaness is directed toward Harry due to resentment at James, and a sense of entitlement. (Explaining, not justifying,)

I think Snape's default response is anger. Anger at Neville for melting a cauldron, anger at Harry for looking like James (and I think Snape thinks that Harry behaves like James.) 






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 02:11:36 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:11:36 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl24u6+d06d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl2dco+ajv0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188875


Montavilla47:
I think we'll have to keep on disagreeing about whether
this remark amounts to abuse or not. My dad is dead and I
miss him a lot, but if someone said mean about him, I would
think about the many, many people who loved him and have
told me what a great guy he was.

That's just something people tend to learn. That's what
schoolyards and gym class are for, aren't they?


Alla::
LOL, I did not think you considered anything that Snipe does to be abuse, I am not sure why you specifically singled out this episode as something we disagree on. I think we just disagree on whether Snipe is an abuser in general.

My dad is dead too and I miss him terribly as well. If anybody would have had a nerve to start badmouthing him to me, I of course would have remembered all people who think and say good things about him, however the person who would have said bad thing would have ceased to exist for me, period, and end of story. About dead good or nothing was grilled in me too early for too long.  I would have thought that such person has no class, no respect for me, and as I said, I would have stopped maintaining any relationship with such person. However, I do not think I would have considered myself verbally abused by such remark, especially now when time passed and pain is muted. And I have had twenty something years with my dad and good times to remember him by. Harry however, who had a bit over a year with his parents and mostly dreams to remember them by? Yes, I think this is an incredibly vulnerable area for him and Snipe is preying on his vulnerability as vulture, hitting below the belt so to speak.


Montavilla47:
You're right that he's never rude to Minerva or Dumbledore, even
when he's "above" Minerva in DH. On the other hand, she's pretty
darn rude to him at that moment.

Alla:

Good for her I say, good for her.


Montavilla47:
He probably did. But he didn't really manage to do that,
did he? Which brings us back to the idea of "weenie" dark
impulses.

Alla:

That is certainly a matter of opinion. I happen to think based on this quote that he managed to humiliate Harry pretty darn well personally. Oh and I am looking at this chapter and cannot find the words where **Harry** wants to make an entrance looking as he is, I only see Snape telling him that he wants to do that.

I am going to start quoting after Snape takes points off.

"The fury and hatred bubbling inside Harry seemed to blaze white-hot, but he would rather been  immobilized all the way back to London than tell Snape why he was late.
`I suppose you wanted to  make an entrance, did you?" Snape continued. "And with no flying car available you decided that bursting into the Great Hall halfway through the feast ought to create a dramatic effect."
Still Harry remained silent, though he thought his chest might explode. He knew that Snape had come to fetch him for this, for the few minutes when he could needle and torment Harry without anyone else listening" ? p.161, amer.edition paperback.

Alla:

"To needle and torment", "his chest might explode" ? those descriptions are more than enough for me to think that Harry was hurt and humiliated a lot.


Montavilla47:
I think was Mike Smith who mocked Snape as "Snape: The
Villain Who Assigns Extra Homework!"

Alla:

I had read Mike Smith, I think parody of one chapter, I am not even sure if it was with Snape, but how to put it politely? I was terribly unimpressed, thus I am not inclined to give his opinions of anything Harry Potter much weight and that includes Snape, sorry.


Montavilla:
Seriously. As a bad guy, Snape's on about the level of
the principal in Ferrous Beuller's Day Off. Or Wiley E. Coyote.

Alla:

I understand that this is your opinion, yes. It is not mine, I think in our everyday life Snape would be much scarier villain than Voldemort. Meaning that I can see somebody like Snape being allowed to exist peacefully and do all the damage he could do to kid who has a misfortune to look as his former enemy, while of course all decent people would raise to fight a monster like Voldemort.


potioncat:
As you describe Snape, it sounds as if he get such thrill from torturing Harry,
that it would be a huge effort on his part to send the boy away. That abusing
Harry is so much fun, Snape seeks out opportunities to engage in the behavior
just for fun, and would hate to see it end.

I used boy toy because sadism has a sexual aspect, and that sounds like what
your post is implying. (or what I'm inferring from your post.) <SNIP>


Alla:

No, not all definitions of sadism include sexual component, I am pretty sure that we went through it in one of the past rounds of this topics, I think there are three definitions, here:

1.	The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others. 
2.	The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty. 
3.	Extreme cruelty.

I think second and third definitions fit Snape nicely.

JMO,

Alla




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 07:43:35 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:43:35 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl2dco+ajv0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl30r7+s87s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188876

> Montavilla47:
> I think we'll have to keep on disagreeing about whether
> this remark amounts to abuse or not. My dad is dead and I
> miss him a lot, but if someone said mean about him, I would
> think about the many, many people who loved him and have
> told me what a great guy he was.
> 
> That's just something people tend to learn. That's what
> schoolyards and gym class are for, aren't they?
> 
> 
> Alla::
> LOL, I did not think you considered anything that Snipe does to be abuse, I am not sure why you specifically singled out this episode as something we disagree on. I think we just disagree on whether Snipe is an abuser in general.

Montavilla47:
I singled it out because I don't think it's particularly
abusive.  I think Snape is angry and it's a pretty jerky
to say.  

Alla:
> My dad is dead too and I miss him terribly as well. If anybody would have had a nerve to start badmouthing him to me, I of course would have remembered all people who think and say good things about him, however the person who would have said bad thing would have ceased to exist for me, period, and end of story. About dead good or nothing was grilled in me too early for too long.  I would have thought that such person has no class, no respect for me, and as I said, I would have stopped maintaining any relationship with such person. However, I do not think I would have considered myself verbally abused by such remark, especially now when time passed and pain is muted. And I have had twenty something years with my dad and good times to remember him by. Harry however, who had a bit over a year with his parents and mostly dreams to remember them by? Yes, I think this is an incredibly vulnerable area for him and Snipe is preying on his vulnerability as vulture, hitting below the belt so to speak.

Montavilla47:
I would say that what is doing is pushing his buttons.
As far as Snape's concerned, Harry doesn't really have 
vulnerabilities, because he's already managed to built
some pretty strong walls of hate and contempt.

And he's just as good at pushing Snape's buttons right
back.


> Montavilla47:
> He probably did. But he didn't really manage to do that,
> did he? Which brings us back to the idea of "weenie" dark
> impulses.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That is certainly a matter of opinion. I happen to think based on this quote that he managed to humiliate Harry pretty darn well personally. Oh and I am looking at this chapter and cannot find the words where **Harry** wants to make an entrance looking as he is, I only see Snape telling him that he wants to do that.
> 
> I am going to start quoting after Snape takes points off.
> 
> "The fury and hatred bubbling inside Harry seemed to blaze white-hot, but he would rather been  immobilized all the way back to London than tell Snape why he was late.
> `I suppose you wanted to  make an entrance, did you?" Snape continued. "And with no flying car available you decided that bursting into the Great Hall halfway through the feast ought to create a dramatic effect."
> Still Harry remained silent, though he thought his chest might explode. He knew that Snape had come to fetch him for this, for the few minutes when he could needle and torment Harry without anyone else listening" ? p.161, amer.edition paperback.


Montavilla47:
I guess this is what I was thinking about:

"Not now, Hermione," said Harry, in a darkly 
significant voice.  He hoped very much that they
would all assume he had been involved in something
heroic, perferably involving a couple of Death Eaters
and a dementor."

HPB, p. 163, U.S. Ed.



> Alla:
> 
> "To needle and torment", "his chest might explode" ? those descriptions are more than enough for me to think that Harry was hurt and humiliated a lot.

Montavilla47:
I read over that passage again and it's cracking me
up how just the sight of Snape--before Snape even
says a word--fills Harry to the bursting point with 
hatred and loathing.  

Also, the heavy Harry filter in that scene makes it
impossible for me to take any of it seriously.  

We've *seen* Harry being tormented by a teacher
and this ain't it.  This is a teenager pissed off because
he came off worst in a fight by someone he normally
bests and taking it out on the Auror who rescues him 
and the teacher whose duty it is to escort him into the 
school (and take points for rule-breaking and egregious 
stupidity).  

Hello.  What are those increased wards for anyway?  
The locked gate and hyped-up security?  For the 
idiot boy who decided to go spy on the Death Eater 
railroad car.

Honestly, I don't think it's Snape humiliating
Harry in that chapter.  It's Harry who did it.  Snape
simply refused to let Harry off the hook and 
forced him to endure the consequences of his
own lack of judgment.


> Montavilla47:
> I think was Mike Smith who mocked Snape as "Snape: The
> Villain Who Assigns Extra Homework!"
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I had read Mike Smith, I think parody of one chapter, I am not even sure if it was with Snape, but how to put it politely? I was terribly unimpressed, thus I am not inclined to give his opinions of anything Harry Potter much weight and that includes Snape, sorry.

Montavilla47:
You don't have to be polite.  Smith certainly 
isn't. But I think he doesn't accurately point out
that Snape's methods of evil toward Harry are 
extremely weak.

Sort of like trying to shoot bullets at Mongo in 
"Blazing Saddles."  It just makes him angry.


> Montavilla:
> Seriously. As a bad guy, Snape's on about the level of
> the principal in Ferrous Beuller's Day Off. Or Wiley E. Coyote.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I understand that this is your opinion, yes. It is not mine, I think in our everyday life Snape would be much scarier villain than Voldemort. Meaning that I can see somebody like Snape being allowed to exist peacefully and do all the damage he could do to kid who has a misfortune to look as his former enemy, while of course all decent people would raise to fight a monster like Voldemort.

Montavilla47:
Really?  I think in real life, Snape would end up
being the butt of the student body's colllective
jokes.  And the inspiration for hundreds of 
nasty drawings and scribbles in the bathroom.

Or maybe he'd inspire someone to write a 
seven book series devoted to how mean 
and petty he was.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 12 12:04:25 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:04:25 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl3fnc+2hab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl3g49+rlc6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188878

Montavilla47:
I guess this is what I was thinking about:

"Not now, Hermione," said Harry, in a darkly
significant voice. He hoped very much that they
would all assume he had been involved in something
heroic, perferably involving a couple of Death Eaters
and a dementor."

HPB, p. 163, U.S. Ed.


Alla:

That's not Harry **wanting** to make an entrance, that's Harry hoping that they
would interpret his **forced** entrance after the fact as something more heroic
than something humiliating I thought.



Montavilla47:
I read over that passage again and it's cracking me
up how just the sight of Snape--before Snape even
says a word--fills Harry to the bursting point with
hatred and loathing.

Also, the heavy Harry filter in that scene makes it
impossible for me to take any of it seriously. <SNIP>

Alla:
Frankly, I find the expression "Harry filter" to have no relevance to this scene
whatsoever. Narrator, who is in Harry's head tells us how Harry feels. Just as
in the first lesson narrator does not describe anything that actually did not
happen or did not describe any feelings that are fake and tells us later on that
Harry did not feel it. I do not see anything "filtrated" here.

What I do get from your argument is that you do not seem to think that Harry
should have felt that way. That's not Harry's filter in my view, that's your
filter as a reader. I do not mean it in a bad way, we all have those filters I
think, but as I said I just disagree that Harry's filter is at works here.

As far as I am concerned I disagreed with your earlier point that Snape did not
manage to humiliate Harry here and I proved it with canon. Unless you can show
me the canon that says that no he was not, the argument that "you cannot take
Harry's feelings seriously" just does not work for me as a rebuttal.

Montavilla47:
We've *seen* Harry being tormented by a teacher
and this ain't it. <SNIP>

Alla:

Again, you are not Harry. If you feel differently when Harry should have feel
tormented and humiliated than when he does, that to me does not mean that Harry
was not feeling it.

ETA:

That's what I get for posting before having my coffee. Here is my example of the same thing, I think. I certainly feel differently than Harry about his generous forgiving of Snape at the end of the books and naming his son (yuck) in Snape's honor. But it would never enter my mind to argue that Harry was not really forgiving him, because I as a reader do not feel that way.

Montavilla47:
Honestly, I don't think it's Snape humiliating
Harry in that chapter. It's Harry who did it. Snape
simply refused to let Harry off the hook and
forced him to endure the consequences of his
own lack of judgment. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, I know. It is all Harry's fault. Oh by the way, I just realized something,
although I am sure it was mentioned in the past, Snape sees teenager with the
blood on his face and not ever tells him to go to the nurse. I guess not
treating his possible injuries also included in "consequences of his own lack of
judgment"? Not that I agree that Snape had any right to do what he did of
course, just wondering what it takes in your opinion.

JMO,

Alla





 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Feb 12 14:58:49 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:58:49 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl2dco+ajv0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl3qb9+8ogs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188879



> Alla:
> 
> No, not all definitions of sadism include sexual component, I am pretty sure that we went through it in one of the past rounds of this topics, I think there are three definitions, here:
> 
> 1.	The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others. 
> 2.	The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty. 
> 3.	Extreme cruelty.
> 
> I think second and third definitions fit Snape nicely.


Potioncat
Well, I'm not sure how I wandered into this and LOL, I realised you had found a way to make Snape less evil in your mind, and I came along and argued against it. What was I thinking?

Just as a clarification, I took your idea of Snape foregoing the pleasure of torturing of Harry as fitting definition 1 (not having seen the definitions at the time and asking if that was your intent. I see it wasn't.

Of those 3, I'd put Snape in number 3. But while he is mean, and while cruel could be used, I wouldn't use extreme cruelty to describe his methods, nor I do think he does it to derive pleasure.
jmo
>





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb 12 16:37:16 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:37:16 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl30r7+s87s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl403s+eajr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188880


> 
> Montavilla47:
> I would say that what is doing is pushing his buttons.
> As far as Snape's concerned, Harry doesn't really have 
> vulnerabilities, because he's already managed to built
> some pretty strong walls of hate and contempt.
> 
> And he's just as good at pushing Snape's buttons right
> back.

Pippin:
Hmmm....Snape's references to James don't come up randomly, IIRC. They come up *only* when Harry has deliberately and heedlessly put himself in a Death Eater's range.  Sneaking into Hogsmeade, where Sirius is supposed to be at large. Refusing to let Snape protect him in the Shrieking Shack. Taking on Draco on the train and in the bathroom. Needlessly engaging the fleeing DE's  after Dumbledore's death. Did I miss anything?

The one exception I can think of is at Grimmauld Place, and there it's Sirius who flouted precautions and put himself (and Harry) in needless peril by going to the station. 

I think it comes up when Snape is forcibly reminded that James had been warned that there was a DE in the Order and took no heed. Like it or not, that is part of the chain of errors that led to Lily's death.  It nullified everything that Snape and Dumbledore did to try and save her. IMO, Snape can't stand the thought of Harry repeating that mistake.

That's what's pushing Snape's buttons in these scenes, IMO. It has nothing to do with Harry's emotional vulnerability per se, and everything to do with Snape's. 

I won't deny that Snape gets pleasure out of venting his anger at Harry, but that's not the primary trigger of his wrath,IMO, any more than the opportunity to insult Dudley was the only reason Harry got upset about Mark Evans.

Pippin





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 02:21:44 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 02:21:44 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl3g49+rlc6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl52bo+lmck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188881



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> Montavilla47:
> I guess this is what I was thinking about:
> 
> "Not now, Hermione," said Harry, in a darkly
> significant voice. He hoped very much that they
> would all assume he had been involved in something
> heroic, perferably involving a couple of Death Eaters
> and a dementor."
> 
> HPB, p. 163, U.S. Ed.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That's not Harry **wanting** to make an entrance, that's Harry hoping that they
> would interpret his **forced** entrance after the fact as something more heroic
> than something humiliating I thought.

Montavilla47:
Right.  I agree with your interpretation.  It was my 
mistake in my original reading of the passage that
Harry was trying to endow the whole entrance with
an air of mystery.

I mean, he is.  But your right in that it's an attempt
to deflect from the humiliation not just teenage 
posturing.  

But it's still really both and I'm reluctant to give up 
that posturing impulse on Harry's part because I 
find it endearing.  While I may be hard on Harry,
I do want to like him--and it's when he acts like 
a dorky teen that I like him best.



> Montavilla47:
> I read over that passage again and it's cracking me
> up how just the sight of Snape--before Snape even
> says a word--fills Harry to the bursting point with
> hatred and loathing.
> 
> Also, the heavy Harry filter in that scene makes it
> impossible for me to take any of it seriously. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> Frankly, I find the expression "Harry filter" to have no relevance to this scene
> whatsoever. Narrator, who is in Harry's head tells us how Harry feels. Just as
> in the first lesson narrator does not describe anything that actually did not
> happen or did not describe any feelings that are fake and tells us later on that
> Harry did not feel it. I do not see anything "filtrated" here.

Montavilla47:

Just so that you understand what I mean by the 
Harry Filter, I'll explain:

As Harry recognizes Snape approaching, he feels "a 
rush of pure loathing."  This is not Harry Filter.  This is 
simply describing what Harry is feeling, but it clues me (YMMV)
into the presence of a filter coming up.

And immediately we have the filter describing Snape with
"hooked nose" and "long, black, greasy hair."  This negative
type of description is not used Chapter Two, when Snape 
is viewed more objectively as merely having a "long, black
curtain of hair."

In Snape's first words "Well, well, well," he is described as 
"sneering."  A few lines later the "malice in his voice" is 
"unmistakable."

They walk in silence for a few minutes and Harry finds it
incredible that Snape can't "feel" the waves of burning hatred
coming off his (Harry's) body.  Harry then recounts all the 
reasons he hates Snape--which boil down to Harry's 
conviction that Snape's snide remarks to Sirius had led
Sirius to rush off to rescue Harry at the MoM and so led 
to Sirius's death.

And, hilariously, Harry practically admits that he's "clinging
to the idea" because it's personally satisfying.  (What isn't
admitted is that it deflect away any blame Harry might feel
for needing to be rescued in the first place.)  Also, Harry
is "sure" that Snape isn't at all sorry that Sirius is dead.

(That certainty should be re-examined in light of the 
Prince's Tale where Dumbledore asks how many people
Snape has watched die, and Snape's reply, "Only those 
I could not save."  Am I paraphrasing that line?  That's 
the gist of it, anyway.)

Now, we have Snape make a couple snide remarks:
"You know, I don't believe any House has ever been in
negative figures this early in the term:  We haven't 
even started pudding.  You might have set a record,
Potter."

To which Harry says nothing, because to say something
would be to LET SNAPE WIN!  Sorry, the exact quote is:
"The fury and hatred bubbling inside Harry seemed to 
blaze white-hot, but he would rather have been 
immobilized all the way back to London than tell 
Snape why he was late."

So, Harry is feeling angry and probably humiliated, but
this is because he's carrying around this reservoir of bile
from a misconception that Snape is responsible for Sirius's
death (which is simply not the case), and interpreting 
Snape's words through that filter.  I am not forgetting
that Snape is has taken away 70 House points from 
Harry.  But if you look at the lines without any 
preconception, Snape has not yet begun to torment
Harry--although Harry is interpreting it that way.

Imagine if it had been Hagrid or Dumbledore saying
those exact words.  They would be taken quite 
differently, don't you think?  

Moving on, as Harry doesn't speak, Snape goes on
to speculate on Harry's motives for arriving in such
a dramatic fashion.  Of course, Snape is wrong about
Harry's motives.  But then I've never argued that 
Snape doesn't have his own filter. :)

"I suppose you wanted to make an entrance, did you?
And with no flying car available you decided that
bursting into the Great Hall halfway through the feast
ought to create a dramatic effect."

Harry remains silent, seethes, and "knows" that 
Snape came to fetch Harry just so that he could 
have a few minutes to "needle and torment Harry
without anyone else listening."

Oh, so many things wrong with that!  First off, we
*know* that Snape came because Hagrid (Tonks's first
choice) was absent.  Secondly, we *know* that Snape
had made a solemn, lifelong promise to protect 
Lily's child, and so he would feel obliged to make 
sure that the missing child was found and escorted
to the castle (and we know he hates Harry so he's 
going to resent  having to make this extra effort--but
he's going to do it anyway, dammit!)  And, thirdly, I'm 
pretty sure that Snape would rather "needle and 
torment" Harry in public than do it privately.  

So, Harry remains sullen and silent, giving off
waves of hatred and not explaining in the least
why it was that he didn't arrive with the other
students all the way to the castle, up the 
stairs, through the doors and into the entrance
hall.  

It's at this point that Snape tells Harry that he 
can walk into the Hall like a normal person (instead
of the Chosen One with an invisibility cloak over
his head).  

So, what am I seeing with my adult reader 
filter on?  I'm seeing a teacher dealing with a 
sulky teenager and saying in effect, "You want
to play the emo-angsty victim?  Go ahead and
play it for your peers!  See how much sympathy
you get!"

Once I move away from Harry's narrow perspective
that is.  Or to put it in other words, once I remove
the Harry filter.

Alla:
> What I do get from your argument is that you do not seem to think that Harry
> should have felt that way. That's not Harry's filter in my view, that's your
> filter as a reader. I do not mean it in a bad way, we all have those filters I
> think, but as I said I just disagree that Harry's filter is at works here.

Montavilla47:
Now, do I think that Harry shouldn't have felt that way.
No.  I think he's fine to feel what he feels.  I'm just not 
going along on his particular emo ride.

Just like, although I may feel really bad for a four-year-
old who gets dragged away to the car in front of a crowd
full of strangers (or friends)  by his parents.  I know he's 
hurting.  I know he's angry.  But it doesn't mean I'm going 
to agree with him when he screams that his parents are the 
"meanest people ever!"

Alla:
> As far as I am concerned I disagreed with your earlier point that Snape did not
> manage to humiliate Harry here and I proved it with canon. Unless you can show
> me the canon that says that no he was not, the argument that "you cannot take
> Harry's feelings seriously" just does not work for me as a rebuttal.

Montavilla47:
I will agree that Harry is humiliated.  But sorry, I 
really can't take Harry's feelings seriously.  Because all
this humiliation is due to Harry's own actions.  

Now, if you want me to take Harry's feelings 
seriously because it's obvious that this is all
repressed anger and shame associated with the 
incidents that took placed in OotP--and that 
Harry is pretending to be all over (as he 
assures Dumbledore in the broomstick shed),
then I'm willing to talk to about it.  Because 
Harry is doing some *major* repressing and
avoidance in this book.

But since that repression and avoidance never
pay off in the series, it's somewhat useless
to talk about.

> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I know. It is all Harry's fault. Oh by the way, I just realized something,
> although I am sure it was mentioned in the past, Snape sees teenager with the
> blood on his face and not ever tells him to go to the nurse. I guess not
> treating his possible injuries also included in "consequences of his own lack of
> judgment"? Not that I agree that Snape had any right to do what he did of
> course, just wondering what it takes in your opinion.

Montavilla47:
Well, Harry had already been healed of that
particular injury, which Snape would probably know
from Tonks's patronus.  Or might surmise given that
a) Tonks is a competent auror who would be unlikely
to hand over an injured Chosen One without mentioning
it and b) he's a competent healer himself and can 
tell the difference between an untreated injury and a 
treated one.






From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Feb 13 03:10:39 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 03:10:39 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkqjkb+5ksm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl557f+151b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188883



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>Alla

>snip to what I consider as common sense, to me attempting to attack fellow student with unforgivable curse warrants expulsion.  And sure, I brought up the example about the book because I consider this a made up rule by Snape which to me nonsense.
> 
> The rule forbidding to take the rare books **outside the library**? Absolutely, makes a lot of sense to me. The rule allowing taking the book, which is not rare at all by the way, outside the library, but not reading it outside? To me it does not make a yota of sense.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>
Nikkalmati

Sorry, I made a mistake with the previous post!  My finger slipped.
I thought I responded to this thought previously, but I do not see it.  Excuse me if this is a duplicate.

The rule would be that a student could not take a library book out of doors, especially true in bad weather.  The rule is not that a student can take a book outside, but cannot read it (that would be silly).  I do not believe the Trio were reading when Snape saw them, they were having a discussion around a fire conjured by Hermione and she was not sure a fire was allowed.  

Of course, a student could read his or her own books out of doors, if the student wanted to. 

Nikkalmati 




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Feb 13 03:45:44 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 03:45:44 -0000
Subject: no question (was Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl0vsa+ql82@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl5798+qni6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188884



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > Alla:
> > Really? Well, I disagree. Plain meaning of Dumbledore asking Snape to convey the information which will lead to Harry's death and Snape doing it, means to me that Snape indeed doing it on Dumbledore's request. I am sure Snape can do mental gymnastics and convince himself that he is doing for Lily as well, since she would be happy if WW is saved, but to me that just does not fly. His boss asked him and that's what he does, it is very simple to me.
> 
> Potioncat:
> People aren't static; relationships, commitments and plans all evolve over time. 
> 
> We see a distraught Severus commit to living so that he can protect Harry to honor Lily's sacrifice. He's doing this for Lily at Dumbledore's urging.  During Harry's years at Hogwarts we see Snape trying to keep Harry safe. (Not that he has the best approach.) His main role is to keep Harry safe from LV; and in a few  years we will see Snape resume his role as double agent. His protection of Harry becomes making efforts to defeat the DEs. Defeating LV wasn't what he agreed to that first night. He follows DD's orders to that end. He even agrees to kill DD?and that certainly wasn't in the promise that first night.
> 
> In the conversation in which DD finally tells Snape that Harry must die, Snape says three times that he had been protecting Harry for Lily?with the final declaration the Patronus and "Always". (Three is a powerful number in Biblical terms---Do you love me, Peter?)
> 
> Imho, while the methods and outcomes changed over the years, Snape's motive was to protect Harry for Lily.  At the point in HBP that DD tells Snape what Harry must do, Snape's role becomes to protect Harry and to provide Harry with the tools to defeat LV. I think he's still doing it for Lily, and I think Lily approved of Snape's decision.  Lily, James, Remus and Sirius were supporting Harry as he went to face LV.
>

Nikkalmati

This topic highlights one of the problems I have with the series.  So many developments and so many emotional moments we should have seen occur off screen.  We don't know how Snape resolved the problem of discovering DD intended for Harry to be killed by LV.  Did he decide Lily would approve, if LV is destroyed, or did he decide it was too late to change the plan, or was he merely too used to following DD's orders to defy him?  

If we speculate that Snape approaches Minerva in DH with Harry nearby under the cloak and manages to complete his thought before she attacks him, he might have said "I have a message for Harry from Dumbledore."  If (an unlikely if) she listens to him, he would have to take Harry to his office to show him any memories.  Wouldn't it be better at that point to let Harry talk to DD's portrait?  It was always going to be extremely difficult to get this message to Harry through Snape and would Harry believe Snape anyway? I just have a lot of trouble imagining how it was supposed to work.  At any rate, I don't see that it was ever the plan to give Harry Snape's memories.  That result was Snape's last minute desperate attempt to save his mission before he died.  Apparently, DD expected Snape to find Harry, talk to him about what he knew and let Harry decide to sacrifice himself.  How likely was that to happen? 

Nikkalmati




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 05:04:30 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 05:04:30 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl52bo+lmck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl5bsu+f51v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188885


Montavilla47:

Just so that you understand what I mean by the
Harry Filter, I'll explain:

As Harry recognizes Snape approaching, he feels "a
rush of pure loathing." This is not Harry Filter. This is
simply describing what Harry is feeling, but it clues me (YMMV)
into the presence of a filter coming up.

And immediately we have the filter describing Snape with
"hooked nose" and "long, black, greasy hair." This negative
type of description is not used Chapter Two, when Snape
is viewed more objectively as merely having a "long, black
curtain of hair." <SNIP>


Alla:

I am having problems at where to snip your post, so rather than leave in everything I am going to snip rather arbitrarily and cut almost everything in your excellent analysis a lot of which I agree with and find not very relevant to the situation we are discussing. Everybody can read it upthread after all. Again, I am not ignoring your points, I just do not feel that my reply warrants leaving them all in.

So anyway, I do not see how the adding of "greasy" makes the description a filter, I do not see what is incorrect in this description, but now moving on to Harry being angry with Snape about Sirius. Yes, sure OF COURSE Harry is angry with Snape about Sirius. Harry is always angry with Snape about something, or almost always angry.  Sirius' death is a huge reason to feel angry and of course Harry is avoiding facing his own guilt here, sure. Yes, of course his anger builds up and builds up over the years. We differ greatly at how deserved this anger is, but of course I am not going to deny that the anger is there.

However, I argue that Snape's very specific action greatly increased Harry's anger, that situation will be Snape making him go through the Great Hall as he was. I argue that Snape making that decision was abuse of his authority and done out of pure spite and desire to humiliate Harry. What does this have to do with Harry being angry at Snape about Sirius? I mean, I can make a case that Harry being angry with Snape after first lesson had a great relevance on how Occlumency lessons played out, I can make a case that Harry being angry with Snape after he talked about James in PoA was one of the build up of Harry's anger which lead to his anger in HBP. However, I do not see how this precludes me from discussing those accidents on their own. The bottom line, to me if say Snape did no do anything ELSE to Harry, him making Harry walk through the Hall was bad on its own.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
Harry remains silent, seethes, and "knows" that
Snape came to fetch Harry just so that he could
have a few minutes to "needle and torment Harry
without anyone else listening."

Oh, so many things wrong with that! 
First off, we
*know* that Snape came because Hagrid (Tonks's first
choice) was absent.

Alla:

Not to me, not too many things are wrong with it, I do not see filter at work here either. Snape wanting to torment and needle Harry to me does not preclude him also coming because Hagrid was not available and did he really come just because of that or because he wanted to? After all why not ask somebody else? He intercepted message did he not? Message which was not related to him, how about giving to the recipient?

Montavilla47:
Secondly, we *know* that Snape
had made a solemn, lifelong promise to protect
Lily's child, and so he would feel obliged to make
sure that the missing child was found and escorted
to the castle (and we know he hates Harry so he's
going to resent having to make this extra effort--but
he's going to do it anyway, dammit!) 

Alla:

Sure, Harry does not know that part, he still can be right about part that he does know, he reports objectively what he knows in my opinion.

Montavilla47:
And, thirdly, I'm
pretty sure that Snape would rather "needle and
torment" Harry in public than do it privately.

Alla:

I cannot share your certainty I am afraid. He torments him in public sure, but I do not remember audience being present when he talked to Harry about James, personally I think he would happily torment him anywhere.


Montavilla47:
Now, do I think that Harry shouldn't have felt that way.
No. I think he's fine to feel what he feels. I'm just not
going along on his particular emo ride.

Just like, although I may feel really bad for a four-year-
old who gets dragged away to the car in front of a crowd
full of strangers (or friends) by his parents. I know he's
hurting. I know he's angry. But it doesn't mean I'm going
to agree with him when he screams that his parents are the
"meanest people ever!"


Alla:

Aha, I think I understand. You think Snape had a right to do what he did and Harry needed and deserved to get what he got, just as pouty four year old did? If so, I have no response, really. I am just getting another confirmation that where Harry and Snape are concerned we are reading different books.

Montavilla47:
I will agree that Harry is humiliated. But sorry, I
really can't take Harry's feelings seriously. Because all
this humiliation is due to Harry's own actions.


Alla:

And now we come to what to me is indeed quite relevant. Would you mind elaborating on what Harry's actions his humiliation is due? Are you saying that Harry did something **worthy of punishment** that Snape has a right to impose a punishment on him here?

Snape knows nothing of what occurred on the train (unless he read Harry's mind of course), all that he sees is that Harry is late and hurt  and you think  this is punishment worthy? If you do not want to respond to anything else in my post, could you please at least respond to this question? I just want clarification before I will probably bow out of this debate.


Montavilla47:
Well, Harry had already been healed of that
particular injury, which Snape would probably know
from Tonks's patronus. Or might surmise given that
a) Tonks is a competent auror who would be unlikely
to hand over an injured Chosen One without mentioning
it and b) he's a competent healer himself and can
tell the difference between an untreated injury and a
treated one.

Alla:

Yes he might have, or he might not know anything of this and see Harry with blood on his face and decide not to do anything about it. It is not like he has not done that in the past (not sending injured student to the nurse ? Hermione's accident)

JMO,

Alla






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 05:15:41 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 05:15:41 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl3qb9+8ogs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl5cht+speh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188886



> Potioncat
> Well, I'm not sure how I wandered into this and LOL, I realised you had found a way to make Snape less evil in your mind, and I came along and argued against it. What was I thinking?

Alla:

Tee heee, I know I find it hilarious myself. Here I am in good faith trying to figure out that maybe Snape is indeed less of a sadist than I keep thinking of him and as long as Potter brat maybe safe, he would love to never ever see him again in his life, but I got myself basically straightened out, lol. Really, it is much easier for me, okay he wants to keep Harry close to his heart :-). 

However, however, seriously speaking, I still feel that canon Snape does not lie. Oh he lies by omission a plenty, but IMO if he says something it is usually a truth or he believes it to be a truth. I mean, again, obviously death of Dumbledore is a case at point, where incomplete information lead some of us (me lol) on a wrong path, but all the *incomplete information" that we heard, was correct, was it not?

What Hagrid heard was correct - Snape did not want to do it, etc, etc.

So, honestly I am still wondering, that is a logical problem for me, not emotional reading one, as I said, for Snape as sadist I think he should want Harry near by, not far away.


Potioncat:
> Just as a clarification, I took your idea of Snape foregoing the pleasure of torturing of Harry as fitting definition 1 (not having seen the definitions at the time and asking if that was your intent. I see it wasn't.

Alla:

Right, no, slash is fun, but no :-)


Potioncat: 
> Of those 3, I'd put Snape in number 3. But while he is mean, and while cruel could be used, I wouldn't use extreme cruelty to describe his methods, nor I do think he does it to derive pleasure.
> jmo
> >
>


Alla:

For me it is two and three, but I just want to clarify, when I say pleasure, not only I do not mean sexual pleasure, I do not mean fun either, it is more like satisfaction I guess? I feel that he is doing to Harry what he would have like done to James in school and since he cannot hurt James in his grave, he is doing it vicariously through his son.

JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 14:26:34 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:26:34 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl5bsu+f51v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl6cqq+uf0a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188887

I am not forgetting
that Snape is has taken away 70 House points from
Harry. But if you look at the lines without any
preconception, Snape has not yet begun to torment
Harry--although Harry is interpreting it that way.


Alla:

I reread my post and I saw that I did not address it yesterday, oh well so I will do it in the separate post. I do not know what you see when you look at it without any preconception, but what I see is definitely abuse of authority. Again, what is Snape taking points for here?  I mean, seriously Harry is late and he is taking fifty points for it? I especially loved "twenty points for muggle attire", I think actually this one would be on my top three lists of most ridiculous reasons Snape takes points from Harry.  If he read Harry's mind and knows what occurred on the train and wants to punish Harry for that, then again when it happened term did not started yet. It is abuse through and through as far as I am concerned, although I would say that this one is abuse of authority.


Montavilla47:
Imagine if it had been Hagrid or Dumbledore saying
those exact words. They would be taken quite
differently, don't you think?

Alla:

I have a very strong suspicion that they would have never said those words and took those points from anybody. We have Minerva not taking points from Gryffindor for something Harry did before term started in CoS, just giving him detention. And no, I do not think she would have had a problem taking points from her house if she thought it was fair.

JMO,

Alla







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Feb 13 14:56:52 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:56:52 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl5bsu+f51v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl6ejk+rjur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188888


> 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Well, Harry had already been healed of that
> particular injury, which Snape would probably know
> from Tonks's patronus. Or might surmise given that
> a) Tonks is a competent auror who would be unlikely
> to hand over an injured Chosen One without mentioning
> it and b) he's a competent healer himself and can
> tell the difference between an untreated injury and a
> treated one.
> 

potioncat:
What I've always wondered is why Tonks didn't clean the blood off. That's part of treating a wound as far as I'm concerned. I'm not pleased with either Tonks or Snape as far as the blood goes.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 18:18:33 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 18:18:33 -0000
Subject: Lockhart's role Was: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6
In-Reply-To: <hkpp6g+3c8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl6qdp+uulv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188889

Annemehr wrote:

<snip> Lockhart's place in the plot itself could have been filled by nearly anyone.  I can't think of anything that happened that he was essential for.  He was instead a handy redshirt who was used to advance the plot in certain ways that could just as easily been accomplished otherwise: to anger the snake Draco conjured in the dueling club, to introduce the concept of the memory charm, to cause the cave-in that made Harry continue to the Chamber alone, to name a few.
> 
> I just think, as the plot of this book did not involve any particular need of a particular DADA teacher, that Lockhart was, literarily, a chance for JKR to have a little fun with the DADA curse, and to contribute to the necessary general accumulation of frustration for Harry. 
> 
> I might even guess that he was just as important to JKR as a chance to poke fun at someone who drove her nuts as he was in his function in the book itself.
> 
> Though I couldn't say if even JKR knows that for sure.

Carol responds:

I think that Lockhart's primary purpose was thematic, a foil to Harry showing how being a celebrity can go to a person's head. James serves a similar purpose in a less comic way. Yes, she was getting a bit of revenge by depicting a character resembling someone she knew as an egotistical, incompetent airhead whose own spell rebounds on him, but she was also showing Harry's aversion to that kind of fame. (At least Harry, in part thanks to Snape, has no groupies following him around like poor Krum later in the series.) I think that the famous characters, even Voldemort, are variations on the theme (actually motif) of celebrity. Ludo Bagman is another character who fits this category.

Lockhart does, of course, wreak havoc necessary to the plot (foreshadowed by the incident with the Cornish pixies, which reveals his incompetence)--he angers the snake that attacks Justin, he dissolves the bones in Harry's arm, and, as you say, he causes the cave-in that prevents Ron from joining Harry (and almost certainly getting killed) in facing the Basilisk and Diary!Tom. And the backfiring Memory Charm, caused by Ron's damaged wand (and carefully foreshadowed through the book) ultimately takes HRH into the Closed Ward of St. Mungo's in OoP, where otherwise they never would have gone (in contrast to Neville, who had a very good reason to be there).

Actually, I can't imagine any other teacher fulfilling that role. JKR needed a highly incompetent teacher whose specialty was a Memory Charm. Of course, he didn't have to be as flamboyant and egotistical as Lockhart, but it's funnier that way and (in contrast to, say, Umbridge's punishment) actually enjoyable for the reader when he's hoist with his own petard.

I forgot to mention that he also serves as a foil to Snape in the Dueling Club incident, hinting at Snape's skill with a wand despite his remarks in Potions class about "foolish wand waving."

Carol, feeling sorry for Wizards because they can't watch the Olympics and don't even know what skiing is




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 18:33:19 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 18:33:19 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow
In-Reply-To: <hkpvte+r9f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl6r9f+101hd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188890



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > 
> > Carol responds:
> > 
> > As indicated, I agree with most of your post. But I don't think that James made Severus feel frightened or hopelessly inferior--humiliated, yes, on the one occasion when James attacked him publicly, but the humiliation was mostly because a girl he liked (and wanted to impress) came to his defense.
> 
> Pippin:
> James and his friends made a habit of attacking Snape four on one, and though he certainly was not cowed or terrified by them, he could never feel safe or comfortable in any situation where they might get the upper hand. He thinks they tried to kill him, and would have succeeded if one of them hadn't gotten cold feet. He knew what would happen if he let down his guard. 
> 
> As for being inferior, I don't see how that can even be in question. James had wealth, charm, physical grace, pureblood status and Quidditch stardom, all of which gave him social status that Snape could never have. And though Snape may not have envied any of those things for their own sake, he surely thought that power and prestige  would impress Lily just as much as they impressed him. He didn't become a Slytherin or a Death Eater for the sheer intellectual challenge, IMO. He expected a reward.
> 
> Pippin
>
Carol responds:

I meant that he wasn't inferior when it came to magical ability or cleverness, not social status or popularity. And notice that it's James, not the rich and handsome Sirius, also a pure-blood like James, at whom Severus directs most of his venom. It's almost as if he resented having his life saved by an enemy more than being nearly killed by one, but I think it was mostly jealousy--not over Quidditch as Lupin assumed but over Lily.

And, as I said, he's not afraid of MWPP. He's furious with them, especially with James, and humiliated by being "rescued" by a seemingly indifferent Lily, hence the "Mudblood" slip.

Whether he really thought that Lily would be impressed by his becoming a DE, I don't know. JKR says so off-page, but I see no evidence of it in "The Prince's Tale."

I don't disagree that he sought a reward when he joined the DEs. Of course he did, or he'd have sold his many talents to a higher bidder, such as the MoM. I'm just saying that IMO, he didn't see himself as in any way inferior to the arrogant toerag despite having a Muggle parent and not much money. What counted to him was brains (see his early comment about Slytherin) and magical power.

One on one, he was a match for James, as either Lupin or Black admits in OoP.

Carol, noting that James may have been better at Transfiguration but Severus was an expert at both Potions and DADA (see his detailed OWL exam) and invented spells of at least two types (hexes and charms)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 18:39:22 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 18:39:22 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets
In-Reply-To: <hkqikb+dng5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl6rkq+douq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188891

Nikkalmati wrote:
> 
> <snip> I think it makes perfect sense to forbid students from taking library books outside, especially in bad weather. JMHO.

Carol adds:
Not to mention that Madam Pince, who is protective of her books to the point of hysteria when she sees the HBP's "mutilated" Potions book, would be quite likely to make such a rule.

Carol, wondering if the teenage Severus ever incurred Madam P's wrath for breaking one or both of those rules




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Feb 13 18:57:17 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Feb 2010 18:57:17 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/14/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1266087437.500.75759.m12@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188892

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 19:06:28 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 19:06:28 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hkuqkc+80ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl6t7k+ibgg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188893

> Alla wrote:
> 
> Really? Well, I disagree. Plain meaning of Dumbledore asking Snape to convey the information which will lead to Harry's death and Snape doing it, means to me that Snape indeed doing it on Dumbledore's request. I am sure Snape can do mental gymnastics and convince himself that he is doing for Lily as well, since she would be happy if WW is saved, but to me that just does not fly. His boss asked him and that's what he does, it is very simple to me.

Carol responds:

I think we can rule out that he was doing it for Harry, at least! But I agree with you that it would require mental gymnastics to convince himself that he was doing it for Lily. In effect, DD is now asking him to *stop* protecting Harry, as he has done since Lily's death so that her death will not be in vain, and send Harry to his death.

Now why would Snape do that, when he's appalled by it and when he's already agreed against his will to kill Dumbledore? I don't think that loyalty to Dumbledore is a sufficient motive. He needs something stronger. The only motive that seems sufficient to me is the desire to destroy Voldemort forever. And if that destruction requires the death of the boy he's tried all this time to save, then Snape really has no choice but to tell Harry about that soul bit, counting on him (as DD also did) to walk voluntarily to his death, making a sacrifice like his mother's but for the good of all, not just the good of one person.

In short, Snape agreed to tell Harry what Harry needed to know to destroy Voldemort. From there, it was up to Harry.

Carol, who has no doubt that Snape wanted Voldemort dead





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 19:27:31 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 19:27:31 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl5bsu+f51v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl6uf3+us7g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188894

> Montavilla47:
> 
> Just so that you understand what I mean by the
> Harry Filter, I'll explain:
> 
> As Harry recognizes Snape approaching, he feels "a
> rush of pure loathing." This is not Harry Filter. This is
> simply describing what Harry is feeling, but it clues me (YMMV)
> into the presence of a filter coming up.
> 
> And immediately we have the filter describing Snape with
> "hooked nose" and "long, black, greasy hair." This negative
> type of description is not used Chapter Two, when Snape
> is viewed more objectively as merely having a "long, black
> curtain of hair." <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> So anyway, I do not see how the adding of "greasy" makes the description a filter, I do not see what is incorrect in this description, but now moving on to Harry being angry with Snape about Sirius. Yes, sure OF COURSE Harry is angry with Snape about Sirius. Harry is always angry with Snape about something, or almost always angry.  Sirius' death is a huge reason to feel angry and of course Harry is avoiding facing his own guilt here, sure. Yes, of course his anger builds up and builds up over the years. We differ greatly at how deserved this anger is, but of course I am not going to deny that the anger is there.
> 

Montavilla47:
I'm glad to see that we agree about something.  But I go
beyond the recognition that Harry is angry, because I think
Harry's anger towards Snape about Sirius's death is 
completely unjustified.  Snape *wasn't* responsible for Sirius
dying.  Harry wasn't either, but Harry's actions had a lot
more to do with it than Snape did.  

So, this instant fireball of loathing and hatred that Harry
feels upon the very sight of Snape?  Unjustified.  

And it colors the way Harry sees Snape's actions, words,
and very appearance.


Alla:
> However, I argue that Snape's very specific action greatly increased Harry's anger, that situation will be Snape making him go through the Great Hall as he was. I argue that Snape making that decision was abuse of his authority and done out of pure spite and desire to humiliate Harry. What does this have to do with Harry being angry at Snape about Sirius? I mean, I can make a case that Harry being angry with Snape after first lesson had a great relevance on how Occlumency lessons played out, I can make a case that Harry being angry with Snape after he talked about James in PoA was one of the build up of Harry's anger which lead to his anger in HBP. However, I do not see how this precludes me from discussing those accidents on their own. The bottom line, to me if say Snape did no do anything ELSE to Harry, him making Harry walk through the Hall was bad on its own.

Montavilla47:
By the time Snape gets around to sending Harry into the 
Hall, he's had an entire walk up to the castle with the sulkiest
seventeen-year-old in the world.  (And that's including
Draco!)  He's twice left opportunities for Harry to explain
what happened, and Harry defiantly sulked back at him.

And I'm sorry.  It's just not the most humiliating thing
in the world.  Or maybe it's just me.  

> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> Harry remains silent, seethes, and "knows" that
> Snape came to fetch Harry just so that he could
> have a few minutes to "needle and torment Harry
> without anyone else listening."
> 
> Oh, so many things wrong with that! 
> First off, we
> *know* that Snape came because Hagrid (Tonks's first
> choice) was absent.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Not to me, not too many things are wrong with it, I do not see filter at work here either. Snape wanting to torment and needle Harry to me does not preclude him also coming because Hagrid was not available and did he really come just because of that or because he wanted to? After all why not ask somebody else? He intercepted message did he not? Message which was not related to him, how about giving to the recipient?

Montavilla47:
I'm assuming that the message arrived in the Great Hall
when everyone was at dinner--since that's the most
logical place to find Hagrid at that time, and because
Snape specifically mentions the pudding.  

So, Hagrid is not there, we know because Snape tells us
that.  Who else would be there?  All the teachers including
Minerva, Dumbledore, and Snape, who are all in the Order.

It's Order business to guard the Chosen One, so I wouldn't
expect Snape to, say, fetch Filch to fetch Harry instead.  Filch
is a squib, which would make him useless were a Death Eater
to show up or something--or even if Harry were freaking out
and wanting to run off (why not?  He did it last year, didn't he?)

Minerva would the most logical choice to get Harry, since he's
in her House and she *is* an Order member.  On the other 
hand, she was badly injured a few months ago, and since she 
would be *right there* with Dumbledore and Snape, I'm going
to assume she had some reason for allowing Snape to go 
instead.

The most logical reason would be that all three of them heard
the message and Dumbledore simply told Snape to fetch Harry.

Oh, and by the way, looking for Hagrid to go fetch Harry is 
just a waste of time.  Why the hell would Snape (or Dumbledore
for that matter), want to have Harry standing outside the 
safety of the school wards any longer than necessary?  If 
Dumbledore did tell Snape to go rather than Minerva, it may
simply have been that Snape moves faster than she does.

Or, you know, it could have been that Dumbledore likes 
to needle and torment Snape by making him miss the pudding.


> Montavilla47:
> Secondly, we *know* that Snape
> had made a solemn, lifelong promise to protect
> Lily's child, and so he would feel obliged to make
> sure that the missing child was found and escorted
> to the castle (and we know he hates Harry so he's
> going to resent having to make this extra effort--but
> he's going to do it anyway, dammit!) 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sure, Harry does not know that part, he still can be right about part that he does know, he reports objectively what he knows in my opinion.

Montavilla47:
Of course he reports what he knows.  And he doesn't
know everything.  Hence the filter!

> Montavilla47:
> And, thirdly, I'm
> pretty sure that Snape would rather "needle and
> torment" Harry in public than do it privately.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I cannot share your certainty I am afraid. He torments him in public sure, but I do not remember audience being present when he talked to Harry about James, personally I think he would happily torment him anywhere.

Montavilla47:
Would he torment him in a box?
Would he toment him with a fox?
Would he torment him in a house?
Would he torment him with a mouse?

Hehe!


> Montavilla47:
> Now, do I think that Harry shouldn't have felt that way.
> No. I think he's fine to feel what he feels. I'm just not
> going along on his particular emo ride.
> 
> Just like, although I may feel really bad for a four-year-
> old who gets dragged away to the car in front of a crowd
> full of strangers (or friends) by his parents. I know he's
> hurting. I know he's angry. But it doesn't mean I'm going
> to agree with him when he screams that his parents are the
> "meanest people ever!"
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Aha, I think I understand. You think Snape had a right to do what he did and Harry needed and deserved to get what he got, just as pouty four year old did? If so, I have no response, really. I am just getting another confirmation that where Harry and Snape are concerned we are reading different books.

Montavilla47:
1. Yes, Snape had a right to do what he did.  He's a 
teacher and it's part of his job to exercise authority 
over miscreant students.

2. Yes.  Harry was acting like a spoiled brat and he 
certainly should not have been indulged in that behavior.

3. I think we are.  Quite possibly I'm reading a different
book than the one JKR was writing.  But I stand by
my interpretation of this scene.  I'm not gong to say that
Snape's the epitome of goodness in this scene, but 
I don't think Snape is acting nearly as unjustly as 
Harry believes.

> Montavilla47:
> I will agree that Harry is humiliated. But sorry, I
> really can't take Harry's feelings seriously. Because all
> this humiliation is due to Harry's own actions.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> And now we come to what to me is indeed quite relevant. Would you mind elaborating on what Harry's actions his humiliation is due? Are you saying that Harry did something **worthy of punishment** that Snape has a right to impose a punishment on him here?
> 

Montavilla47:
Since you ask, yes.  Students are expected to behave
properly, even on the train to Hogwarts.  They are not 
expected to invade the privacy of other students through
the use of magical spying tools (not that Snape 
knows about that).

They are also not expected to go around breaking
other students's noses and hiding them with invisibility
cloaks--but Snape has no reason to know that Draco 
did that, either.

All he knows is that Harry has showed up late, that 
there's evidence that he was fighting with someone, and
that he refuses to explain any of his actions.

That's not even taking into account that the *entire*
Ministry, school, and Order has increased their security
tenfold in order to protect Harry Potter.  Have we 
forgotten the Ministry cars sent to fetch Harry from the 
burrow?  The Ministry guards sent to escort Harry from 
the cars to the train? The visible presence of aurors in 
Hogsmeade when the train arrives?  The new wards on 
the castle?  The probity probes going over every 
student's luggage?

And what does Harry do?  He gives everyone the slip
and traipses off in his invisibility cloak to do a half-
baked spying mission.  And this is not the first time
that Harry's done this.  He went missing in CoS, and
he snuck off to Hogsmeade in PoA.  And he ran away 
from school in OotP (with truly disastrous results).

When is this kid going to get the message that you 
DON'T GO OFF on lone wolf missions?  (Heh, never!)

Alla:
> Snape knows nothing of what occurred on the train (unless he read Harry's mind of course), all that he sees is that Harry is late and hurt  and you think  this is punishment worthy? If you do not want to respond to anything else in my post, could you please at least respond to this question? I just want clarification before I will probably bow out of this debate.

Montavilla47:
Late and healed and sulky and defiant.  Yep.
I think that's worth a short walk of shame.  

> Montavilla47:
> Well, Harry had already been healed of that
> particular injury, which Snape would probably know
> from Tonks's patronus. Or might surmise given that
> a) Tonks is a competent auror who would be unlikely
> to hand over an injured Chosen One without mentioning
> it and b) he's a competent healer himself and can
> tell the difference between an untreated injury and a
> treated one.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes he might have, or he might not know anything of this and see Harry with blood on his face and decide not to do anything about it. It is not like he has not done that in the past (not sending injured student to the nurse ? Hermione's accident)
> 

Montavilla47:
It's also not like he hasn't done the exact
opposite.  Fetching stretchers for unconscious
students and enemies (before getting help
for his own head injury).  Healing Dumbledore's 
injury.  In the following chapters, he will provide
emergency care to Katie Bell and Draco Malfoy.

Since I know that Harry's already been healed, I 
don't see why I should be upset that Snape doesn't
send him to the nurse.  He didn't send Harry and 
Ron to the nurse in CoS, either.  And they had 
just been beaten up by a willow tree!






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 20:24:37 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 20:24:37 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl6ejk+rjur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl71q6+odpf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188895

Montavilla47:
By the time Snape gets around to sending Harry into the
Hall, he's had an entire walk up to the castle with the sulkiest
seventeen-year-old in the world. (And that's including
Draco!) He's twice left opportunities for Harry to explain
what happened, and Harry defiantly sulked back at him.

 
Alla:

Harry does not owe him to explain what happened before he came to Hogwarts, I do not think. 

Montavilla47:
And I'm sorry. It's just not the most humiliating thing
in the world. Or maybe it's just me.


Alla:
I am sorry for being a parrot, but you are not Harry.  I do not mean to keep making  "you centered" argument, believe me they are not my favorite thing in the world, but I honestly do not see how else I can respond to it. I am sympathetic to Harry, I feel for a boy w


Alla:
>
> Aha, I think I understand. You think Snape had a right to do what he did and
Harry needed and deserved to get what he got, just as pouty four year old did?
If so, I have no response, really. I am just getting another confirmation that
where Harry and Snape are concerned we are reading different books.

Montavilla47:
1. Yes, Snape had a right to do what he did. He's a
teacher and it's part of his job to exercise authority
over miscreant students.

Alla:

Okay, at least I understand where you stand now, I think. You think that teacher can do any thing to a student, right? I mean, I am sure you do not think he can kill a student or anything like that, but basically you think that teacher can walk up to a student and order him to do anything as long as student is at school. If I describe your position correctly, it is certainly not mine. I do not believe Snape can punish Harry for the accident that he does not even know occurred.

Montavilla47:
2. Yes. Harry was acting like a spoiled brat and he
certainly should not have been indulged in that behavior.

Alla:

Acting as a spoiled brat in your view is what exactly? Being angry at Snape for Sirius' death?



Montavilla47:
3. I think we are. Quite possibly I'm reading a different
book than the one JKR was writing. But I stand by
my interpretation of this scene. I'm not gong to say that
Snape's the epitome of goodness in this scene, but
I don't think Snape is acting nearly as unjustly as
Harry believes.

Alla:

Sorry, but if you are saying that Snape was completely justified in what he did to Harry in that scene how is it Snape not acting as epitome of goodness? 


Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
Since you ask, yes. Students are expected to behave
properly, even on the train to Hogwarts. They are not
expected to invade the privacy of other students through
the use of magical spying tools (not that Snape
knows about that).

They are also not expected to go around breaking
other students's noses and hiding them with invisibility
cloaks--but Snape has no reason to know that Draco
did that, either.<SNIP>


Alla:

Actually I do not remember saying anything about Harry's behavior on the train being justified in any way, shape or form. If Snape had **witnessed** what had happened, I would have fully expected him to punish Harry for it. He however did not, if you are saying that Snape KNOWS about it, well, then he used a legilimency on the student without his permission, which I thought Snape did not do. Then if he knows it, would be nice if he said it out loud, but it seems that you agree that Snape does not know it, so I do not see what Snape was punishing Harry for here.


Montavilla:
<SNIP>
Since I know that Harry's already been healed, I
don't see why I should be upset that Snape doesn't
send him to the nurse. He didn't send Harry and
Ron to the nurse in CoS, either. And they had
just been beaten up by a willow tree!


Alla:

Yes, you as a reader know that. Snape does not know that in my opinion. I thought that Tonks have not mentioned anything about asking her patronus to convey a message about Harry's medical condition. Snape is so concerned about the safety of the Chosen one that blood on his face does not concern him, and of course he is simply acting as a teacher within his authority, right? I of course disagree with it, but I would have thought that teacher would have remembered that making sure that students' injuries are healed also within his authority. Unless his authority only works one way ? he is allowed to hurt and humiliate Harry as much as possible and what little physical suffering is? As long as Harry is alive, right?

As an aside, I realized after rereading this chapter that I want to thank Nagini all over again with all my heart. Thank you Big Nasty Snakey for sparing other Hogwarts students from enduring Severus Snape ever again in their lives. Obviously as I mentioned before the picture of his death itself does not please me, I would have much rather thanked a character for taking him out with Avada, but I will take what I can get.

potioncat:
What I've always wondered is why Tonks didn't clean the blood off. That's part
of treating a wound as far as I'm concerned. I'm not pleased with either Tonks
or Snape as far as the blood goes.


Alla:

Neither am I pleased with Tonks, neither am I, please be assured about that. The fact it adds to my disgust with Snape in this chapter, does not mean that I think Tonks acted rightly.

JMO,

Alla







From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Feb 13 21:23:48 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:23:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl6cqq+uf0a@eGroups.com>
References: <hl6cqq+uf0a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B771864.1030404@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188896

dumbledore11214 wrote:
> I am not forgetting
> that Snape is has taken away 70 House points from
> Harry. But if you look at the lines without any
> preconception, Snape has not yet begun to torment
> Harry--although Harry is interpreting it that way.

Bart:
    I waited, fruitlessly, throughout the series for some Slytherin to 
join Harry's group, and, when asked about his joining in with the other 
Slytherins in their taunting of Gryffindor, notably in Quidditch, to 
reply, "Those are games. This is real!"

    House points are games. They are, in the long run, completely 
meaningless. So is Quidditch, for that matter. And, in DH, Harry finally 
puts aside those things that don't matter, to concentrate exclusively on 
those that do.

    Bart




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 21:44:45 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:44:45 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl71q6+odpf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl76gd+t202@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188897

> Montavilla47:
> By the time Snape gets around to sending Harry into the
> Hall, he's had an entire walk up to the castle with the sulkiest
> seventeen-year-old in the world. (And that's including
> Draco!) He's twice left opportunities for Harry to explain
> what happened, and Harry defiantly sulked back at him.
> 
>  
> Alla:
> 
> Harry does not owe him to explain what happened before he came to Hogwarts, I do not think. 

Montavilla47:
Yes, he does.  He's a student who has disappeared on
the way to school and Snape is the teacher designated to
leave his dinner to collect him.  Harry definitely owes him
an explanation.

Harry also owes Tonks an explanation, but he doesn't 
give her one, either.


> Montavilla47:
> And I'm sorry. It's just not the most humiliating thing
> in the world. Or maybe it's just me.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> I am sorry for being a parrot, but you are not Harry.  I do not mean to keep making  "you centered" argument, believe me they are not my favorite thing in the world, but I honestly do not see how else I can respond to it. I am sympathetic to Harry, I feel for a boy w
> 

Montavilla47:
I'm entitled as a reader to come to my own conclusions 
about such things.  So are you.

I am not obligated to view this as the most 
humiliating punishment ever just because Harry's in
a snit.

Especially not after reading OotP, when Harry spent
the entire book in a snit.  I remember putting that book
down extremely annoyed at Harry.  It was only when I 
distanced myself from him and saw that he was acting
like a rebellious teenager that I was able to get behind
Harry as a character again.


> Alla:
> >
> > Aha, I think I understand. You think Snape had a right to do what he did and
> Harry needed and deserved to get what he got, just as pouty four year old did?
> If so, I have no response, really. I am just getting another confirmation that
> where Harry and Snape are concerned we are reading different books.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> 1. Yes, Snape had a right to do what he did. He's a
> teacher and it's part of his job to exercise authority
> over miscreant students.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Okay, at least I understand where you stand now, I think. You think that teacher can do any thing to a student, right? I mean, I am sure you do not think he can kill a student or anything like that, but basically you think that teacher can walk up to a student and order him to do anything as long as student is at school. If I describe your position correctly, it is certainly not mine. I do not believe Snape can punish Harry for the accident that he does not even know occurred.

Montavilla47:
No, you're stretching my answer to the point of 
absurdity.  Teachers cannot do "anything" to a student.

For example, I do not think that teachers should be 
allowed to make students write lines with quills that 
cut the words into their hands.  I do not think that 
teachers should transfigure students into small animals
and bounce them up and down on stone floors.  I do
not think that teachers should force their students to 
interact with dangerous experimental animals that 
burn them.

It wasn't an "accident" that happened to Harry.  It was 
taking a stupid risk that turned out badly--without
letting anyone know what he was doing.


> Montavilla47:
> 2. Yes. Harry was acting like a spoiled brat and he
> certainly should not have been indulged in that behavior.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Acting as a spoiled brat in your view is what exactly? Being angry at Snape for Sirius' death?

Montavilla47:
Acting as a spoiled brat is refusing to speak to the
person who is talking to you.  And refusing to explain
why you didn't arrive at the place you were supposed 
to be, causing anxiety and disruption at a time when
security is the highest priority in the country.  

Harry can be as angry as he likes at Snape.  But it 
doesn't make his behavior any better just because 
he's angry.


> Montavilla47:
> 3. I think we are. Quite possibly I'm reading a different
> book than the one JKR was writing. But I stand by
> my interpretation of this scene. I'm not gong to say that
> Snape's the epitome of goodness in this scene, but
> I don't think Snape is acting nearly as unjustly as
> Harry believes.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sorry, but if you are saying that Snape was completely justified in what he did to Harry in that scene how is it Snape not acting as epitome of goodness? 

Montavilla47:
There's a huge difference between acting within your
authority as an authority figure and being the epitome
of goodness.

To use an example from my new favorite story:

Zuko is acting within his rights as a prince to fight an
Agni Ki for the throne.  But Aang is acting as the epitome
of goodness when he tries to find a way to avoid killing.

Of course, as everyone tells Aang, he would still be
just to kill his enemy.  It's not *unjust,* it's that being
the epitome of goodness usually entails going beyond
justice to mercy.

> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> Since you ask, yes. Students are expected to behave
> properly, even on the train to Hogwarts. They are not
> expected to invade the privacy of other students through
> the use of magical spying tools (not that Snape
> knows about that).
> 
> They are also not expected to go around breaking
> other students's noses and hiding them with invisibility
> cloaks--but Snape has no reason to know that Draco
> did that, either.<SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Actually I do not remember saying anything about Harry's behavior on the train being justified in any way, shape or form. If Snape had **witnessed** what had happened, I would have fully expected him to punish Harry for it. He however did not, if you are saying that Snape KNOWS about it, well, then he used a legilimency on the student without his permission, which I thought Snape did not do. Then if he knows it, would be nice if he said it out loud, but it seems that you agree that Snape does not know it, so I do not see what Snape was punishing Harry for here.

Montavilla47:
He's not punishing Harry for what he doesn't know
happened on the train.  However, he knows *something*
happened, because he can see that Harry is a) late, 
b) had to be rescued by Tonks, and c) showing signs of 
having been in a fight.

Oh, and d) improperly attired.  

He deducts points for the tardiness and improper 
attire.  He waits for Harry to explain--which might
possibly results in fewer points deducted, but most
likely not, because I don't think Snape would have 
very impressed with any excuse Harry gave.

Instead of explaining, Harry just sulks and hopes that
he can sneak away so that no one finds out he was 
beaten up by Draco.  Well, Snape is not going to 
indulge that hope.  He's going to make sure that 
Harry finally learns (after three similar incidents!) that
he can't hide away from his problems through 
invisibility.


> Montavilla:
> <SNIP>
> Since I know that Harry's already been healed, I
> don't see why I should be upset that Snape doesn't
> send him to the nurse. He didn't send Harry and
> Ron to the nurse in CoS, either. And they had
> just been beaten up by a willow tree!
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, you as a reader know that. Snape does not know that in my opinion. I thought that Tonks have not mentioned anything about asking her patronus to convey a message about Harry's medical condition. Snape is so concerned about the safety of the Chosen one that blood on his face does not concern him, and of course he is simply acting as a teacher within his authority, right? I of course disagree with it, but I would have thought that teacher would have remembered that making sure that students' injuries are healed also within his authority. Unless his authority only works one way ? he is allowed to hurt and humiliate Harry as much as possible and what little physical suffering is? As long as Harry is alive, right?

Montavilla47:
Again, I'll just mention that Snape is collecting
Harry from a trained auror and member of the Order.
If she's satisfied about Harry's condition, then he
can safely assume that Harry can wait until he's eaten
to be seen by the nurse.  

Who is probably eating dinner herself.  Come to think 
about it, sending Harry to the Hospital Wing would be 
silly, since Madam Pomfrey would be in the Great Hall 
with everyone else.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 13 22:35:00 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 22:35:00 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl76gd+t202@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl79ek+khn4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188898



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47" <montavilla47 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Okay, at least I understand where you stand now, I think. You think that teacher can do any thing to a student, right? <SNIP> 
> Montavilla47:
> No, you're stretching my answer to the point of 
> absurdity.  Teachers cannot do "anything" to a student.
> 
> For example, I do not think that teachers should be 
> allowed to make students write lines with quills that 
> cut the words into their hands.  I do not think that 
> teachers should transfigure students into small animals
> and bounce them up and down on stone floors.  I do
> not think that teachers should force their students to 
> interact with dangerous experimental animals that 
> burn them. <SNIP>

Alla:

Okay, sure let me rephrase it then. You think that anything Snape does to Harry is within his authority and justifiable, yes?




> > Alla:
> > 
> > Sorry, but if you are saying that Snape was completely justified in what he did to Harry in that scene how is it Snape not acting as epitome of goodness? 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> There's a huge difference between acting within your
> authority as an authority figure and being the epitome
> of goodness. <SNIP>

Alla:

Sorry, it is just from your earlier posts I thought that while you may not view it as abuse, you did not think that Snape was acting perfectly either. However you describe his actions as somebody who was being completely justified in what he did, correct?

I just thought it was a contradiction when you say that Snape did not act as epitome of goodness and at the same time was acting as an authority figure within limits of his authority, to me that pretty much equaled epitome of goodness.


Montavilla47: 
> To use an example from my new favorite story:
> 
> Zuko is acting within his rights as a prince to fight an
> Agni Ki for the throne.  But Aang is acting as the epitome
> of goodness when he tries to find a way to avoid killing.
> 
> Of course, as everyone tells Aang, he would still be
> just to kill his enemy.  It's not *unjust,* it's that being
> the epitome of goodness usually entails going beyond
> justice to mercy.
> 
><SNIP>

Alla:

I understand I think, you think Snape does not show mercy to Harry (thus he is not an epitome of goodness), but you do not think he did anything wrong to Harry either?

Alla




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 04:58:44 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 04:58:44 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl79ek+khn4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl7vu4+rr99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188899

> > > Alla:
> > > 
> > > Okay, at least I understand where you stand now, I think. You think that teacher can do any thing to a student, right? <SNIP> 
> > Montavilla47:
> > No, you're stretching my answer to the point of 
> > absurdity.  Teachers cannot do "anything" to a student.
> > 
> > For example, I do not think that teachers should be 
> > allowed to make students write lines with quills that 
> > cut the words into their hands.  I do not think that 
> > teachers should transfigure students into small animals
> > and bounce them up and down on stone floors.  I do
> > not think that teachers should force their students to 
> > interact with dangerous experimental animals that 
> > burn them. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Okay, sure let me rephrase it then. You think that anything Snape does to Harry is within his authority and justifiable, yes?

Montavilla47:
Anything covers a lot of territory.  There's couple times
that I think are questionable.  I don't think a teacher 
should throw jars at their students.  And I don't think
a teacher should deliberately destroy a student's class
project.  

And I'm probably missing some event or other where
Snape exceeds his authority.

But in this case, I don't think that Snape is exceeding
his authority.  If he is, Harry should certainly complain
to his Head of House (as he did later in the year to
McGonagall when Snape assigned that endless series
of detentions), or appeal to Dumbledore, as Harry
did later on that week.

As I recall, those efforts yielded Harry nothing in 
return but a lecture (in Minerva's case) and chuckles 
(in Dumbledore's case).  Which indicates to me that
Snape is usually acting within his authority as a 
teacher.

Oh!  That reminds of a time when Snape definitely
exceeds his authority and that's when he assigns Lupin's
class to write an essay on werewolves.  In that case, 
the students appeal to Lupin and the assignment is 
dropped.


> > > Alla:
> > > 
> > > Sorry, but if you are saying that Snape was completely justified in what he did to Harry in that scene how is it Snape not acting as epitome of goodness? 
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> > There's a huge difference between acting within your
> > authority as an authority figure and being the epitome
> > of goodness. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sorry, it is just from your earlier posts I thought that while you may not view it as abuse, you did not think that Snape was acting perfectly either. However you describe his actions as somebody who was being completely justified in what he did, correct?

Montavilla47:
Again, acting "perfectly" and acting in a "justified
manner" are not quite the same thing.  


Alla:
> I just thought it was a contradiction when you say that Snape did not act as epitome of goodness and at the same time was acting as an authority figure within limits of his authority, to me that pretty much equaled epitome of goodness.
> 

Montavilla47:
To me, they are not the same thing.  Executors 
administer justice, but I don't recall any being
nominated for Peace prizes or sainthood.  

Although, I'm wrong probably wrong about the 
sainthood thing.  There are saints for everything.
Someone *has* to be the patron saint of 
executioners.

> Montavilla47: 
> > To use an example from my new favorite story:
> > 
> > Zuko is acting within his rights as a prince to fight an
> > Agni Ki for the throne.  But Aang is acting as the epitome
> > of goodness when he tries to find a way to avoid killing.
> > 
> > Of course, as everyone tells Aang, he would still be
> > just to kill his enemy.  It's not *unjust,* it's that being
> > the epitome of goodness usually entails going beyond
> > justice to mercy.
> > 
> ><SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I understand I think, you think Snape does not show mercy to Harry (thus he is not an epitome of goodness), but you do not think he did anything wrong to Harry either?

Montavilla47:
Are you talking about in this scene or in the 
entire series?  In this scene, I don't think Snape
did anything wrong.  

It would have been *nicer* of him to let Harry
wash up first.  Then again, it might have given
Harry an opportunity to bolt again.  Better safe
than sorry.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 16:18:01 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:18:01 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl7vu4+rr99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl97np+7uhm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188900


dumbledore11214 wrote:
> I am not forgetting
> that Snape is has taken away 70 House points from
> Harry. But if you look at the lines without any
> preconception, Snape has not yet begun to torment
> Harry--although Harry is interpreting it that way.

Bart:
<SNIP>
 House points are games. They are, in the long run, completely
meaningless. So is Quidditch, for that matter. And, in DH, Harry finally
puts aside those things that don't matter, to concentrate exclusively on
those that do.

Alla:

Montavilla47 wrote the quote you were replying to, not me. I would never agree with this paragraph, ever.  As to house points, well, I personally think it all depends on what you are comparing them with and for what purpose. Of course school grading system and subsequent House rivalry are games in comparison with fighting a war against a monster and "wannabe" dictator, who wants to rule by murder and torture. Of course they are. But school life was real for those kids as well and it is real for next generation too and for them house points are real thing IMO. And of course I think they show perfectly Snape's everyday cruelty and unfairness, IMO.


Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
Are you talking about in this scene or in the
entire series? In this scene, I don't think Snape
did anything wrong. <SNIP>


Alla:

Thank you. That is all I needed to know.






From dkolker1969 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 15:38:41 2010
From: dkolker1969 at yahoo.com (dkolker1969)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:38:41 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
Message-ID: <hl95e1+g85h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188901

My biggest disappointment with the entire series was that there was not a scene in the 5th book when Harry apologized to Snape for how his father had treated him.  I was waiting for it after Harry witnessed the Levicorpus moment and James' humiliation of Snape.  Maybe because I read the books alongside my then-8-year-old son, I was very sensitive to the dynamics among the schoolboys.  I felt as though JKR made it very clear that even though Harry physically resembled James, personality wise he was much more like Lily.  I was glad at the end of DH that Harry had recognized Snape's bravery and decency, but I would have liked to have seen a moment between the two of them when Snape was alive, even though I'm sure Harry would have been bumbling and unable to articulate what he was trying to say, and Snape would have been sneering and dismissive, but deep down they would have shared a level of understanding.

-- Danielle, die-hard Snape fan




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 17:04:29 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:04:29 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hl95e1+g85h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9aet+oeh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188902



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dkolker1969" <dkolker1969 at ...> wrote:
>
> My biggest disappointment with the entire series was that there was not a scene in the 5th book when Harry apologized to Snape for how his father had treated him.  <SNIP>

Alla:

To each their own of course and I am not picking on you, I just saw this argument so many times and it never ceases to amaze me. Harry, a boy whose parents are dead in part because of Snape should apologize to adult Snape, who as far as I am concerned grossly mistreated him throughout the series, and for how his father treated him no less?

Yes, this seems to be Snape's motto indeed that children are responsible for the sins of their fathers, but apology from Harry?

One would think that James being dead at 21 no less would gave Snape all the personal happiness he needed without tormenting his boy.

One of my personal dissapointments with the series is that I never heard Snape apologizing to Harry. Simple "I was wrong Potter" after "Look at me" would have been enough for me.

Although as far as I am concerned Harry's forgiveness of Snape, dislike it as I am, at least showed me that Harry IMO turned to be ten times better man than Snape ever was.

JMO,

Alla




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 17:09:05 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:09:05 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hl95e1+g85h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9anh+hhc2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188903

Danielle:
> My biggest disappointment with the entire series was that there was not a scene in the 5th book when Harry apologized to Snape for how his father had treated him.  I was waiting for it after Harry witnessed the Levicorpus moment and James' humiliation of Snape.  Maybe because I read the books alongside my then-8-year-old son, I was very sensitive to the dynamics among the schoolboys.  I felt as though JKR made it very clear that even though Harry physically resembled James, personality wise he was much more like Lily.  I was glad at the end of DH that Harry had recognized Snape's bravery and decency, but I would have liked to have seen a moment between the two of them when Snape was alive, even though I'm sure Harry would have been bumbling and unable to articulate what he was trying to say, and Snape would have been sneering and dismissive, but deep down they would have shared a level of understanding.
> 

Montavilla47:
I know what you mean.  I don't think Harry can or should
apologize for what his father and friends did.  He's *not*
his father and he shouldn't have be responsible for his 
father's behavior.  

But Harry could apologize for his own behavior, when he 
invaded Snape's privacy by looking in the Pensieve.  

Whew.  I don't think that would have gone well for Harry,
though!  

But it's something that never really feels resolved to me,
even if Harry honors Snape with his second child's 
second name.  Both characters need to process their
mutual antagonism for the relationship to ever feel
resolved.  Maybe they did.  But if so, it all happened
in the cracks between what we see in the book.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Feb 14 17:34:15 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:34:15 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hl9aet+oeh9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9c6n+khft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188904


>
> Alla:

> 
> One of my personal dissapointments with the series is that I never heard Snape apologizing to Harry. Simple "I was wrong Potter" after "Look at me" would have been enough for me.

Potioncat:
OK, I'll go along with that,if it could have been,"Look at me. I was wrong, Potter. Miss Granger, apparate me to St. Mungo's now."

I think Snape's life was atoning for James's and Lily's deaths--and showing Harry the memories that he did was his way of explaining it. Had he lived, maybe a conversation/apology---but not under the conditions of the current 7 years. 

I don't think Harry owes an apology for his father. How can you apologize for something that happened before you were born?


>Alla:
> Although as far as I am concerned Harry's forgiveness of Snape, dislike it as I am, at least showed me that Harry IMO turned to be ten times better man than Snape ever was.

Potioncat:
Harry was ten times the man of just about everyone--including Dumbledore, James, Sirius, Remus....





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Feb 14 17:53:49 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:53:49 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl6t7k+ibgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9dbd+nkpq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188905


> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> I think we can rule out that he was doing it for Harry, at least! But I agree with you that it would require mental gymnastics to convince himself that he was doing it for Lily. In effect, DD is now asking him to *stop* protecting Harry, as he has done since Lily's death so that her death will not be in vain, and send Harry to his death.

Pippin:

I agree he wouldn't undertake to  convince himself. But, and I realize I am modifying my theory here, I think something happened to convince him. A huge emotional upheaval, a state of such pity and fear that Snape's core assumptions would be shattered and rebuilt. A catharsis.

So, is there a such a moment  between the time Snape receives Dumbledore's instructions and the time he carries them out? Is there an opportunity for Snape to re-experience the tragedy of Lily's loss? Is there a huge emotional upheaval as a result?

There sure is -- Lily's letter.

The letter was found at Order headquarters, in the possessions of an Order member, and it makes clear that Lily was just as much an Order member in her own right as Molly was. 

 After reading that letter, Snape couldn't think that Lily had left her home open to potential spies out of deference to James, or trusted Dumbledore only because James did, or that she'd joined the Order because she belonged to James, and if she'd belonged to Snape things would have been different. 

"So that her death will not be in vain" -- I agree that's the key. But as we realize when we see the statues of James and Lily at Godric's Hollow, and I think Snape realized when he found the letter, she didn't just die to save Harry. She died  to help the Order stop Voldemort, and she always knew  that it might cost her life and her family's lives to do it. 

The last page had Lily's signature and her love. But it also affirmed her faith in Dumbledore. Snape took that with him too. 

We know that Harry believes that Snape was brave and faithful to both Dumbledore and Lily, and that is only possible if Dumbledore and Lily wanted the same thing. Harry doesn't much concern himself with how that happened. But I think we can see how it did. 


Pippin







From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 14 18:01:01 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 14 Feb 2010 18:01:01 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/14/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1266170461.541.10632.m13@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188906

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 20:31:56 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:31:56 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl9dbd+nkpq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9mjs+k218@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188907

> > Carol responds:
> > 
> > I think we can rule out that he was doing it for Harry, at least! But I agree with you that it would require mental gymnastics to convince himself that he was doing it for Lily. In effect, DD is now asking him to *stop* protecting Harry, as he has done since Lily's death so that her death will not be in vain, and send Harry to his death.
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> I agree he wouldn't undertake to  convince himself. But, and I realize I am modifying my theory here, I think something happened to convince him. A huge emotional upheaval, a state of such pity and fear that Snape's core assumptions would be shattered and rebuilt. A catharsis.
> 
> So, is there a such a moment  between the time Snape receives Dumbledore's instructions and the time he carries them out? Is there an opportunity for Snape to re-experience the tragedy of Lily's loss? Is there a huge emotional upheaval as a result?
> 
> There sure is -- Lily's letter.

Montavilla47:
Good catch, Pippin.  It bugged me that there *wasn't* some
kind of catalyst event to get Snape from his Protect Harry for
Lily mission to the Save the World mission.

But there is the letter, showing Lily's commitment to the 
cause.  And it's in the book.  Thank goodness.

It's oddly placed, though, isn't it?  It seems out of place 
chronologically.  I always thought that that scene would
be taking place the night of Dumbledore's death--that 
Snape went to the house to hide.

Why would Snape be in the house immediately
following the Seven Potters chase?  Unless maybe he was 
ordered to go there by Voldemort in case Harry showed up.

And it could make emotional sense for Snape to break down
at that point--if you can connect the dots.  Because it's a 
little weird in the text.  Harry identifies George as getting his
ear cut off in the chase memory, which makes it harder to 
remember that at this point, Snape would be seeing *Harry*
getting his ear cut off (due to Snape's blunder).

So, what happens is that Snape is following Dumbledore's
order, but risks his mission to help Lupin out--and then
screws up by harming Lily's son!  Then, for some reason 
he goes to 12 Grimauld Place, where he gets yelled at by 
the dustcloud of Dumbledore--just what he needs when 
he's already feeling like crap--and finds that letter.

So, is he crying in grief, or is it relief that he's now able to 
follow the Save the World mission without betraying Lily?






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 20:53:45 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:53:45 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl1k0m+uc7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9nsp+327a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188908

Alla wrote:
> > 
> > Well, your hypothetical scenario  is one of the possibilities that could have occurred I suppose, but my scenario would be quite different. Where is canon evidence that Harry would have entertained a scenario, where he needs to die, or I should say where he needs to die not fighting without pushing from Dumbledore.
> 
Pippin responded:
> It was on the table from the moment Riddle confirmed that Lily's death was the countercurse. Dumbledore didn't give him that information. Harry figured it out for himself, under pressure from Riddle in the Chamber.  
> 
> "But I know why you couldn't *kill* me. Because my mother died to save me." 
> 
> We thought, silly us, that it was the magic of mother love. But it was the magic of willing sacrifice. IMO, Harry had that worked out a long time before we did.
<snip>

Carol responds:

Not to get into an extended discussion, but I agree with Alla on this one. In OoP, for example, when Harry finds out about the Prophecy, he thinks that one of them has to kill the other--or, in his somewhat exaggerated terms, he either has to murder or be murdered. He also hopes in DH (for awhile) to obtain the Elder Wand to defeat (meaning kill) Voldemort now that he no longer has the protection of his wand's core against Voldemort's.

You make Snape's dying message into something trivial, or at least no more than telling Harry that he *has* to die, and die willingly, because of the soul bit--a decision which, you seem to think, he would have made anyway. But it seems to me that he intended to fight to the death, as the Prophecy implies, until he learned that he had to sacrifice himself to destroy the soul bit.

IMO. he doesn't realize the full importance of his sacrifice until after his talk with Dead!DD in King's Cross.

Carol, wishing she had time to develop her argument more fully




From lealess at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 22:20:55 2010
From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 22:20:55 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl6t7k+ibgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9t07+pjo7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188909



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol responds:
> 
> I think we can rule out that he was doing it for Harry, at least! But I agree with you that it would require mental gymnastics to convince himself that he was doing it for Lily. In effect, DD is now asking him to *stop* protecting Harry, as he has done since Lily's death so that her death will not be in vain, and send Harry to his death.
> 
> Now why would Snape do that, when he's appalled by it and when he's already agreed against his will to kill Dumbledore? I don't think that loyalty to Dumbledore is a sufficient motive. He needs something stronger. The only motive that seems sufficient to me is the desire to destroy Voldemort forever.
>
><Snip>
> 

I think the reason is partially found in the other boy Snape swore to protect, Draco Malfoy.  At some point in HBP, Snape probably realized he couldn't protect Malfoy, even at pain of losing his own soul or his life, as long as Voldemort remained alive.  While Lily's death made Snape a life-long enemy of Voldemort, the danger to and compromise of his friends' son must have strengthened his perception that Voldemort had to go at any cost.  Since Dumbledore seemed to have the means to eliminate Voldemort, Snape had to follow Dumbledore's plan.

Hope this makes sense,
lealess




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 22:31:08 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 22:31:08 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl6t7k+ibgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9tjc+q3h8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188910

> Carol responds:
> 
> I think we can rule out that he was doing it for Harry, at least! But I agree with you that it would require mental gymnastics to convince himself that he was doing it for Lily. In effect, DD is now asking him to *stop* protecting Harry, as he has done since Lily's death so that her death will not be in vain, and send Harry to his death.

Alla:

Right absolutely!

Carol:
> Now why would Snape do that, when he's appalled by it and when he's already agreed against his will to kill Dumbledore? I don't think that loyalty to Dumbledore is a sufficient motive. He needs something stronger. The only motive that seems sufficient to me is the desire to destroy Voldemort forever. <SNIP>


Alla:

And I totally understand that, honestly. I mean I do not like that the whole WW wanted one boy to save them and DD manipulated them, etc, etc, but I totally understand this desire.

All what I am asking is that we should call a spade a spade, you know?

It does not mean that I think that getting rid of Voldemort is a bad idea, I am just saying that what happened was Snape agreeing to send Harry to his death, which to me is the exact opposite to Snape continuing to protect Harry's life for Lily, who died to save her son's *life*.

I think we agree, but I am not sure, so I am sorry if we are not.

JMO,

Alla




From kat7555 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 17:38:00 2010
From: kat7555 at yahoo.com (kathy)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:38:00 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hl9aet+oeh9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9cdo+3luh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188911


> Alla:
>
> To each their own of course and I am not picking on you, I just saw this argument so many times and it never ceases to amaze me. Harry, a boy whose parents are dead in part because of Snape should apologize to adult Snape, who as far as I am concerned grossly mistreated him throughout the series, and for how his father treated him no less?
>
> Yes, this seems to be Snape's motto indeed that children are responsible for the sins of their fathers, but apology from Harry?
>


I agree with Alla. Children aren't responsible for their parents actions so Harry shouldn't feel guilty for James's actions toward Snape. I believe Snape also owed Neville Longbottom an apology for his treatment of him when he first arrived at Hogwarts. I think it's awful that Snape chose to torment the children who didn't have families to protect them. I think Neville learned how not to behave as a teacher from Snape.
Kathy




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Feb 14 23:11:28 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:11:28 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hl95e1+g85h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hl9vv0+um0f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188912



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dkolker1969" <dkolker1969 at ...> wrote:
>
> My biggest disappointment with the entire series was that there was not a scene in the 5th book when Harry apologized to Snape for how his father had treated him.  I was waiting for it after Harry witnessed the Levicorpus moment and James' humiliation of Snape.  Maybe because I read the books alongside my then-8-year-old son, I was very sensitive to the dynamics among the schoolboys.  I felt as though JKR made it very clear that even though Harry physically resembled James, personality wise he was much more like Lily.  I was glad at the end of DH that Harry had recognized Snape's bravery and decency, but I would have liked to have seen a moment between the two of them when Snape was alive, even though I'm sure Harry would have been bumbling and unable to articulate what he was trying to say, and Snape would have been sneering and dismissive, but deep down they would have shared a level of understanding.
> 
> -- Danielle, die-hard Snape fan

Nikkalmati

I think it would have made sense at that point in the story for Harry to have done something to apologise for his behavior and to indicate he was ashamed of his father's.  This is one of the unresolved conflicts that JKR left hanging.  (I mentioned earlier that we are not privileged to see how Snape resolved the conflict between his promise to protect Harry and the reason DD asked him to make that promise.)  Here we dont see how Harry resolves the shock of seeing his father behave as a bully with his previous view of his father as a popular and talented hero.  He even questions how his mother could have married James and speculates that maybe James gave her a potion.

Harry talks to Lupin but he only finds out that James never stopped hexing Snape and merely concealed it from Lily.  Harry's shock is sincere, but the story marches on and the issue is shoved under the rug.  I beleive you are feeling the lack of some proper resolution between Harry and Snape.

Another unresolved issue is how Harry ever absorbed the fact that Snape was a confident of DD, loved his mother, and had been her close friend for many years.  Of course, it happened at the same time he was given the information that he was a Horcrux and had to die willingly without fighting in order to purge the world of LV.  No wonder he was not given the chance to absorbe the information about Snape.  He has a complete change of heart by the time he faces down LV in the Great Hall, but we never see it happening.  

Nikkalmati
>





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Feb 14 23:26:07 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:26:07 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl7vu4+rr99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hla0qf+5gvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188913

montavilla47


 bigsnip


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47" > > 
> Oh!  That reminds of a time when Snape definitely
> exceeds his authority and that's when he assigns Lupin's
> class to write an essay on werewolves.  In that case, 
> the students appeal to Lupin and the assignment is 
> dropped.
>
Nikkalmati

Not sure why giving this assignment exceeded his authority as a substitute teacher.  We do know why Lupin cancelled the assignment.:>)

Nikkalmati
> > 

> Montavilla47:
> To me, they are not the same thing.  Executors 
> administer justice, but I don't recall any being
> nominated for Peace prizes or sainthood.  
> 
> Although, I'm wrong probably wrong about the 
> sainthood thing.  There are saints for everything.
> Someone *has* to be the patron saint of 
> executioners.

Nikkalmati

Agreed.  I think there is such a saint. Name not at the tip of my fingers, however.

Nikkalmati








From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Feb 14 23:26:45 2010
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:26:45 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
Message-ID: <hla0rl+i8m5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188914

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(minus that extra space)

Chapter Discussion: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Chapter 7: Mudbloods and Murmurs

Harry spends a lot of time in the following few days avoiding Lockhart and less successfully avoiding Colin Creevey's persistent stalking. With Hedwig being annoyed and Ron's damaged wand malfunctioning, the weekend seems to beckon as a haven of peace until Oliver Wood gets him out of bed on Saturday morning for Quidditch practice.

On the way down, he is again overtaken by Colin, to whom, inter alia, he explains the rules of the game. After a long tactical teaching session from Oliver, they go to the pitch to start but have hardly got under way when the Slytherin team arrive with a note from Snape allowing them to have the pitch to practise with their new seeker, who turns out to be Draco Malfoy. It is also revealed that Lucius Malfoy has bought new brooms for the entire team.

After Ron and Hermione arrive, an argument develops culminating in Hermione accusing Draco of buying his way onto the team; an exchange of insults lead to Malfoy calling Hermione a Mudblood. Ron tries to hex him but his wand backfires and he starts spitting slugs. Harry and Hermione get him to Hagrid's hut where they find him grumpily trying to get rid of Lockhart; he reveals in passing that the latter was the only candidate for the DADA post. Harry learns how grave an insult it is to call someone a Mudblood.

On arrival back in the school, Professor McGonagall tells Harry and Ron that their detentions will be that evening and that Gilderoy Lockhart has particularly requested that Harry serve his time helping him with fan mail.

Harry spends his time addressing envelopes while  Lockhart signs photographs and rambles on, Harry  trying to tune him out. Suddenly, Harry hears an evil,  disembodied voice threatening to injure or kill someone. Lockhart cannot hear the voice and thinks that Harry is just drowsy and lets him leave. On arrival back at the Gryffindor dormitory, he tells Ron about this experience and they both settle down in their beds unable to offer any explanation about Harry's strange experience,

Questions.

1: What was your impression of Colin Creevey when he first appeared? Why do you think that JKR decided to introduce his character?

2: Can you explain Oliver Wood's apparent obsession with Quidditch, way even beyond keen players like Ron?

3: Did you find it unfair that the Slytherin team were given permission to practise when Gryffindor have already booked the pitch?

4: Does it surprise you that Fred wasn't sure whether Draco was a Malfoy bearing in mind that he and Harry already had track records of dislike from the previous year? 

5: Do you think that Hermione was perhaps biased and unfair in suggesting that money rather than talent got Draco onto the Slytherin team. Surely he must have had some aptitude?

6: Do you think that the spell Ron tried to use would actually have had Malfoy spitting slugs or did the backfire also alter the result? Is there anything significant in the fact that the backfire produced a green light, a colour  which seems to be associated with more serious spells? Hermione certainly thought it was a difficult curse.

7: What do you believe prompted Gilderoy Lockhart to press for Harry's detention to be served with him?

8: Why do you think that only Harry could hear the disembodied voice?

Please add any questions of your own if you have them.

Geoff

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at
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Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 8, The Deathday Party, on February 21, 2010.

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From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Feb 14 23:32:03 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:32:03 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl7vu4+rr99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hla15j+que@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188915



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47" <montavilla47 at ...> wrote:
>big snip

> Montavilla47:
> Anything covers a lot of territory.  There's couple times
> that I think are questionable.  I don't think a teacher 
> should throw jars at their students.  And I don't think
> a teacher should deliberately destroy a student's class
> project.  
> 
big snip

Nikkalmati

Oh, I just wanted to say the two incidents you describe are not without controversy.  I think the jar of cockroacher exploded in a burst of unintended magic fulled by Snape's justified but over the top wrath.  I don't think he knocked Harry's potion off his desk at all. (Not that it was fair of him to sneer at Harry either).

Nikkalmati




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 23:46:22 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:46:22 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hl9c6n+khft@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hla20e+nm11@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188916

> > Alla:
> 
> > 
> > One of my personal dissapointments with the series is that I never heard Snape apologizing to Harry. Simple "I was wrong Potter" after "Look at me" would have been enough for me.
> 
> Potioncat:
> OK, I'll go along with that,if it could have been,"Look at me. I was wrong, Potter. Miss Granger, apparate me to St. Mungo's now."


Alla:

Heeeeee, well that is one scenario for sure.


Potioncat: 
> I think Snape's life was atoning for James's and Lily's deaths--and showing Harry the memories that he did was his way of explaining it.

Alla:

I don't know, I am sure Snape thought in his mind that he was atoning for Lily's death by protecting Harry's life (till Dumbledore told him not to), although I still maintain that the man who truly wants to atone for the death of woman he loved would not treat her child that way. But I will go with his life being atonement for Lily's death. I cannot agree however that he felt the slightest need to atone for James' death. I mean, do not get me wrong, I am sure that especially at the end of his life he would not have WANTED James dead. However I speculate that he was very happy that James dead, but for him not being able to execute revenge on James for their school years and for the fact that James took Lily as a wife and not him. Speculation obviously, based on how I view Snape's character.


Potioncat: 
> I don't think Harry owes an apology for his father. How can you apologize for something that happened before you were born?

Alla:

Well, you know that whether I agree with you or not, I always considered you to be extremely fair Snape fan so thank you for saying that. :)


> 
> >Alla:
> > Although as far as I am concerned Harry's forgiveness of Snape, dislike it as I am, at least showed me that Harry IMO turned to be ten times better man than Snape ever was.
> 
> Potioncat:
> Harry was ten times the man of just about everyone--including Dumbledore, James, Sirius, Remus....
>

Alla:

Oh this goes without saying. I am just saying that she could have indeed finished a story with Snape lecturing Harry on how he protected his life, so he should be grateful (never mind that he made that life so miserable), so I was very pleased that it was Harry giving forgiveness to Snape, even if I wanted him to do something different.




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Feb 14 23:50:21 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:50:21 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl9t07+pjo7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hla27t+hsf0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188917



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" <lealess at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > Carol responds:
> > 
> > I think we can rule out that he was doing it for Harry, at least! But I agree with you that it would require mental gymnastics to convince himself that he was doing it for Lily. In effect, DD is now asking him to *stop* protecting Harry, as he has done since Lily's death so that her death will not be in vain, and send Harry to his death.
> > 
> > Now why would Snape do that, when he's appalled by it and when he's already agreed against his will to kill Dumbledore? I don't think that loyalty to Dumbledore is a sufficient motive. He needs something stronger. The only motive that seems sufficient to me is the desire to destroy Voldemort forever.
> >
> ><Snip>
> > 
> 
> I think the reason is partially found in the other boy Snape swore to protect, Draco Malfoy.  At some point in HBP, Snape probably realized he couldn't protect Malfoy, even at pain of losing his own soul or his life, as long as Voldemort remained alive.  While Lily's death made Snape a life-long enemy of Voldemort, the danger to and compromise of his friends' son must have strengthened his perception that Voldemort had to go at any cost.  Since Dumbledore seemed to have the means to eliminate Voldemort, Snape had to follow Dumbledore's plan.
> 
> Hope this makes sense,
> lealess
>
Nikkalmati

It does make sense that Snape shifted his goals because he wanted to destroy LV.  I do like Pippin's suggestion that the note he found from Lily directed him toward the conclusion that he could allow Harry to die.  I do have one problem though.  What in the world was DD's plan?  DD did not know Harry would live and it does seem to have been a near thing.  Therefore, who was going to kill LV after Harry died and took the horcrux with him?  Did DD expect Snape to use the Elder Wand to do the deed?  Did he expect some other order member to kill him?  Did he tell Snape anything about how LV would be disposed of?

Nikkalmati




From lealess at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 15 00:56:00 2010
From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:56:00 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hla27t+hsf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hla630+10n8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188918

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>I do have one problem though.  What in the world was DD's plan?  DD did not know Harry would live and it does seem to have been a near thing.  Therefore, who was going to kill LV after Harry died and took the horcrux with him?  Did DD expect Snape to use the Elder Wand to do the deed?  Did he expect some other order member to kill him?  Did he tell Snape anything about how LV would be disposed of?
> 
> Nikkalmati
>

>From the King's Cross chapter, I think we are meant to conclude that Dumbledore planned everything that happened, less the incidentals.  He suspected Harry would survive Voldemort's killing curse that would eliminate the soul piece.  He tells Potter that Voldemort's intake of Lily Potter's blood keeps him alive.  He was waiting for Potter to tell him he had a choice to pass on or go back.  Why would Potter return except to finish what he started?  I suspect Dumbledore knew Potter would be the one to finish Voldemort.

Dumbledore's will left the Sword of Gryffindor to Potter, to tell him how to destroy horcruxes.  He left the Deluminator to Ron Weasley, knowing that Ron would leave the quest and need a way to return.  He left the Hallows story to Hermione Granger, hoping to divert Harry, or so he said.  He left the Snitch to Potter to open at the close, knowing Potter would willingly go to his death.  Dumbledore put all the pieces in place, and waited for the story to play out.  The rest was just so much filler.

The only part of his plan Dumbledore admits didn't work as he intended was Snape not ending up with the Elder Wand.  We aren't told why that was important.  From Snape's reaction in the Shrieking Shack, I think it's safe to conclude Snape didn't even know about the Elder Wand.  I think Dumbledore knew Voldemort would attack Snape to get a wand that could defeat Potter.  This part of the plan makes little sense except as a way to kill Snape.  It even subverts Snape's getting a message to Potter.  But lo, it all worked out to Potter's best interest in the end.

I don't think Dumbledore expected Snape to kill Voldemort.  I think he had faith that it would be Potter.  Or, as he says, "I guessed.  But my guesses have usually been good."  And, because Dumbledore had secret information and good guessing skills, Snape put his faith in Dumbledore's plan, even though that never worked out well for Snape personally.

lealess




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 15 01:23:33 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 01:23:33 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
In-Reply-To: <hla0rl+i8m5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hla7ml+bp4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188919



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
><SNIP of the summary>


Questions.

1: What was your impression of Colin Creevey when he first appeared? Why do you
think that JKR decided to introduce his character?

Alla:

To show how little Harry likes his celebrity status I think. I always found Colin to be extremely annoying, the equivalent of RL paparazzi and when I was rereading this chapter, I found myself to be annoyed all over again. I was especially annoyed when he asks to hold Ron down, who is throwing up slugs. Boy I wanted to smack this kid across the head and hard.

Yeah, I know he died heroically. Still do not like him.

2: Can you explain Oliver Wood's apparent obsession with Quidditch, way even
beyond keen players like Ron?

Alla:

Heee, well sports fans like him do exist, and I am sure fanatical players like him do exist too, but having said that, I always found his obsession to be sort of endearing, which is strange for me.

I mean when he mentions defeat last year, he is described as if this was still torturing him. I don't know, somebody who has such passion about his hobby or future profession has my sympathy.



3: Did you find it unfair that the Slytherin team were given permission to
practice when Gryffindor have already booked the pitch?


Alla:

Of course, but it is not like I expect Snape to be fair to Gryffindors, so when I was rereading it today, I was like oh, just another moment of what he usually does. I wish Gryffindors went and indeed complained to Minerva and boy I would loved to see a catfight between them.


4: Does it surprise you that Fred wasn't sure whether Draco was a Malfoy bearing
in mind that he and Harry already had track records of dislike from the previous
year?


Alla:

Hm, well actually I just reread the chapter and to me it felt more like Fred was just double checking, like he was sure that this is Draco, but since he may not have had personal encounters with him he wanted to be doubly sure.


5: Do you think that Hermione was perhaps biased and unfair in suggesting that
money rather than talent got Draco onto the Slytherin team. Surely he must have
had some aptitude?

Alla:

Actually yes, I do. I dislike Draco as you know, but I am thinking that surely Quidditch team wanted to win and would not take a completely hopeless one?

However, however, I do not think she was that biased either, it is not like it is that unusual in RL for sponsor of the team or the event to get in somebody who they want to be there. I do not mean that it happens on professional level, or more like I have not read about it, but in the kids teams? Pay money and you can play even if you have no ability whatsoever, right?

So what I am trying to say is that I am thinking that he has some ability, but the money played a part of him getting on, IMO of course.


7: What do you believe prompted Gilderoy Lockhart to press for Harry's detention
to be served with him?

Alla:

Gilderoy thinks he would become even more prominent celebrity when he is associated with another celebrity, IMO.


8: Why do you think that only Harry could hear the disembodied voice?

Alla:

Is this a trick question? :)  No seriously what am I missing besides Harry being a Parseltongue?

Thanks for the excellent questions Geoff!




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Feb 15 02:02:14 2010
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 02:02:14 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl76gd+t202@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hla9v6+q20j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188920



> > Alla:
> > 
> > Harry does not owe him to explain what happened before he came to Hogwarts, I do not think. 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Yes, he does.  He's a student who has disappeared on
> the way to school and Snape is the teacher designated to
> leave his dinner to collect him.  Harry definitely owes him
> an explanation.
> 
> Harry also owes Tonks an explanation, but he doesn't 
> give her one, either.
> 

Marianne:

If Harry had gave Snape an explanation, that wouldn't have changed Snape's additude.  If anything he'd have got it worse because Draco, who is in Snape's house, broke his nose and Snape would figure that Harry deserved it.

Obviously Harry didn't feel the need to give Tonks an explanation on his own.  I don't think Tonks ever asked for an one.  Maybe if she'd asked he would have gave it.  But Tonks was in her own world of extreme sadness.  I don't think she was in any mood for a teenager's problem/explanation.




From jnoyl at aim.com  Mon Feb 15 17:57:13 2010
From: jnoyl at aim.com (James Lyon)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:57:13 -0700
Subject: Snape and Harry
Message-ID: <2A16219E-5D16-4B31-B68E-A9243EA3DC37@aim.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188921

First, was the memory true and did Harry know what all led to the  
scene? Does he know the context of Snape's tormenting?
Then, there is the actual canon!Snape (not the movie!Snape, but the  
canon!Snape) who abuses children and mind rapes them? Who doesn't  
teach but punishes after the children blow up their potions? The  
Snape who believes that love means it is OK to kill a woman's husband  
and baby to get her as a pet or sex slave?
Did Snape apologize for getting Harry's parents killed? Did any of  
the adults ever act like adults?
Besides, an apology from any one other than the one who committed the  
"outrage" is meaningless and insipid.
JL



From ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Feb 15 21:54:49 2010
From: ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk (Ffred Clegg)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:54:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 10912
In-Reply-To: <1266228396.1027.98935.m5@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1266228396.1027.98935.m5@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <55254.63444.qm@web24713.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188922

5a. Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
? ? Posted by: "Geoff" gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk geoff_bannister
? ? Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:27 pm ((PST))

>Questions.
>
>1: What was your impression of Colin Creevey when he first appeared? Why do you think that JKR decided to introduce his character?

Prat. Twat. Irritation. Comic relief. Then he dies at the end. Are we glad, a little bit?

>2: Can you explain Oliver Wood's apparent obsession with Quidditch, way even beyond keen players like Ron?

Which of the two ends up as a professional? There's your answer.

>3: Did you find it unfair that the Slytherin team were given permission to practise when Gryffindor have already booked the pitch?

I did, but then at this point Slytherin were just the unfair guys. The real depth and understanding comes later in the series.

>5: Do you think that Hermione was perhaps biased and unfair in suggesting that money rather than talent got Draco onto the Slytherin team. Surely he >must have had some aptitude?

Hermione is loyal. Cormac McLaggen had aptitude too.

>6: Do you think that the spell Ron tried to use would actually have had Malfoy spitting slugs or did the backfire also alter the result? Is there anything >significant in the fact that the backfire produced a green light, a colour? which seems to be associated with more serious spells? Hermione certainly >thought it was a difficult curse.

No doubt at all. I wonder if Fred and George had ever tried that one out on Ron in his younger days?

>7: What do you believe prompted Gilderoy Lockhart to press for Harry's detention to be served with him?

Image, my dear boy, image!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred


      



From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Feb 15 22:12:38 2010
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:12:38 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
In-Reply-To: <hla0rl+i8m5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlcgsn+v5v5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188923


Questions.

 
1: What was your impression of Colin Creevey when he first appeared? Why do you think that JKR decided to introduce his character?

Marianne:

Colin annoyed me.  There's no other way for me to put it.  Maybe JKR added Colin to balance things out.  There was an adult treating Harry like a celebrety now add a first year to treat Harry like a celebrity.  Harry can't get away from either person, although he tries.  And he hates every encounter.

2: Can you explain Oliver Wood's apparent obsession with Quidditch, way even beyond keen players like Ron?

Marianne:

Quidditch is Oliver's passion.  He loves the game, he wants the win, and he'll do almost everything to get that win, even though other people and his team members might not understand.  I understand Oliver.  Music is my thing.  Lots of people don't understand my love for music.  I've been known to go to great lengths to follow the music. Very few people I know that understands why I do what I do.  Same goes with Oliver's friends.
 
5: Do you think that Hermione was perhaps biased and unfair in suggesting that money rather than talent got Draco onto the Slytherin team. Surely he must have had some aptitude?

Marianne:

Hermione had it right.  Money will get you everywhere.  As for Draco being talanted, I remember in SS it was stated that Draco could fly, except his grip was wrong.  :o) So I'm sure there was aptitude, but money played a bigger part in the role. 
 
7: What do you believe prompted Gilderoy Lockhart to press for Harry's detention to be served with him?

Marianne:

Maybe Lockhart is showing Harry what fame can do to you. In Lockhart's mind the fame is great and he wants Harry to have a small taste of what can happen.  Harry, on the other hand, don't want anything to do with the fame thing.
  
8: Why do you think that only Harry could hear the disembodied voice?

Marianne:

Parseltongue?  LV?  It's coming from a thing that is targeting Harry only.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb 15 23:57:44 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:57:44 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's plan was Doing it for Lily?
In-Reply-To: <hla630+10n8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlcn1o+pv6a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188924




Lealess:
> 
> The only part of his plan Dumbledore admits didn't work as he intended was Snape not ending up with the Elder Wand.  We aren't told why that was important.  From Snape's reaction in the Shrieking Shack, I think it's safe to conclude Snape didn't even know about the Elder Wand.

Pippin:

If he did know, what would he have done differently? 

I think we have a hint that he did know. 

If the clues given to Hermione were necessary to keep Harry from discovering too quickly that Voldemort was after the Elder Wand,   Dumbledore must have thought a clever person, ie Snape, would  work out what Voldemort was after without them. 

Dumbledore's plan was to die undefeated and master of the wand. He guessed that the Elder Wand would then lose  its powers. In that case, Snape could safely present it to LV as a trophy, and LV would either conclude that the Elder Wand had worn out at last, or that DD's wand had never been the Elder Wand in the first place. He would never guess that the wand had been disarmed deliberately. 

If Dumbledore's guess had been wrong, and the wand still worked, then Snape would be master of the one weapon which, in the hands of superb duelist, might be able to resist the Dark Lord. Snape would know that he wouldn't be able to *kill* Voldemort until the soul bit in Harry had been destroyed and Harry's other tasks had been accomplished. But Voldemort could certainly be put to inconvenience.

Unfortunately for DD's plan, the mastery of the wand passed to Draco Malfoy before Dumbledore died. Snape probably knew that the wand had been buried with Dumbledore and thought it was as safe there as it would be anywhere. Removing it without its owner's permission would be problematic.   Hogwarts does not tolerate thievery and things missing from their rightful owners tend to make their way back in time. 

Even if Voldemort seized the wand, he couldn't become its master unless he defeated Draco. But Snape didn't reckon on Voldemort taking the wand in secret, thinking he'd mastered it, and then deciding that he had failed because *Snape* was master of the wand.

Snape turns "marble white" when he hears that the wand has been taken from Dumbledore's tomb. Snape is part of Voldemort's inner circle.  Would he be shocked to hear that Voldemort, creator of numerous Inferi, would desecrate a tomb? I don't think so.

IMO, he's white because he knows what has happened and what is about to happen, and he thinks he's failed. He's never going to get the truth to Potter now. All he can do is try to  protect both Harry and Draco by choosing to die with his secrets intact. 

It's frustrating for me as a Snape fan that the book doesn't tell us whether Snape  was as brave and clever in his last moments as I'd like to think. But the books aren't about Snape. They are about what Harry thinks of Snape. They're about Harry recognizing at last that Snape was brave, clever and utterly loyal to Lily and Dumbledore. 

For myself, since I always believed in Snape and Snape/Lily, that did not come as a surprise. What surprised me was that JKR's antidote to prejudice was not keeping an open mind until one has all the facts. Canon shows that, unfortunately, human beings aren't  good at that. Almost every character in the books is prejudiced, but none of the characters think so. It's no good warning people not to be prejudiced, because nobody, even Voldemort, is deliberately closed-minded. Even Voldemort can recognize a generous, self-sacrificing action when there's incontrovertible evidence. 

The trick, in canon, is to try to see the good in other people, even when they can't see any good in you. And to be just as ready to assume the good as you were to assume the bad. 
 Harry never had proof of all the evil things he believed about Snape and the Slytherins. So why should we insist upon proof before we stop believing them?

Pippin




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Feb 16 14:20:01 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:20:01 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's plan was Doing it for Lily?
References: <hlcn1o+pv6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <031D3FB9A4C94DCF9E2E65700D3B1FBA@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 188925

> The trick, in canon, is to try to see the good in other people, even when 
> they can't see any good in you. And to be just as ready to assume the good 
> as you were to assume the bad.
> Harry never had proof of all the evil things he believed about Snape and 
> the Slytherins. So why should we insist upon proof before we stop 
> believing them?
>
> Pippin

Sorry for cutting out an entire setup for this wonderful argument, Pippin. 
But no proof? Hadn't everyone told Harry just how awful the Death Eaters 
were? Universally agreed on their opinion of the Death Eaters? Harry saw 
first hand with the Mark in the Sky at the World Cup how the Death Eaters 
paraded with reckless disregard for Muggles when they dangled the camp 
owner's family in the air, read in the newspaper of the deaths and 
disappearances of so many people. Snape himself wore the mark of the Death 
Eater- was that not proof that he had to have done some act to earn it? Keep 
in mind that even wearing a Dark Mark, with no further evidence needed, was 
enough to put a man in Azkaban in the justice system of the Wizards, so 
undoubted sure were they of the weight it carried. Hadn't Harry experienced 
first hand Voldemort's thoughts- this very master of Snape? Take then, that 
same weight of evidence and turn the situation around---had this much 
evidence been there to say that Snape was a GOOD man---sure, we'd all be 
believing it with nary a batting of an eye.

Shelley 




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Feb 16 15:27:11 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:27:11 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 10912
References: <1266228396.1027.98935.m5@yahoogroups.com> <55254.63444.qm@web24713.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C2FA69A42FA344DA803673F67AFF9BB1@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 188926

5a. Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
Posted by: "Geoff" gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk geoff_bannister
Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:27 pm ((PST))

>Questions.
>
>1: What was your impression of Colin Creevey when he first appeared? Why do 
>you think that JKR decided to introduce his character?

Second question first: I think Colin is there to represent innocence. A kid 
who is immature from the beginning, immature all the way through. At the 
end, he dies, but as an example of all the innocents harmed by Voldemort- 
the needless suffering from the children who should have had a chance to 
grow up properly. I think he stands as a symbolic death of innocence.

I was struck that Colin is an annnoying fan boy (of Harry's) but that he 
lacks wisdom, tact, and judgement- he's immature, but what real school isn't 
full of Colins? Not every student is a studious Hermione, or a bully like 
Draco, or someone famous like Harry (those students are a small minority, 
IMHO)- most are just plain old immature kids. He's there to provide a 
balance in the student population, and in the end, to be another tragic 
early death that proves, yet again, why Voldemort must die, but mostly I 
think he's there to show that the school is full of immature kids. First 
years are babies in terms of where they are compared to the maturity and 
knowledge that they gain in the years at Hogwarts, and Colin is a reminder 
of just how immature some of those first years are. I didn't hate him for 
being annoying, but rather I looked forward (like any mother does) to whom 
this immature kid would turn out to be, and felt a deep pain of loss (more 
than Fred, or Dobby, even) when he was killed, because we would never get to 
find out.

The rest of the questions people answered pretty much the obvious, and so I 
don't feel the need to contribute to those.

Shelley 




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Feb 16 15:22:51 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:22:51 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hla630+10n8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hled8b+8ari@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188927



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" <lealess at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98@> wrote:
> > <SNIP>
> >I do have one problem though.  What in the world was DD's plan?  DD did not know Harry would live and it does seem to have been a near thing.  Therefore, who was going to kill LV after Harry died and took the horcrux with him?  Did DD expect Snape to use the Elder Wand to do the deed?  Did he expect some other order member to kill him?  Did he tell Snape anything about how LV would be disposed of?
> > 
> > Nikkalmati
> >
> 
> From the King's Cross chapter, I think we are meant to conclude that Dumbledore planned everything that happened, less the incidentals.  He suspected Harry would survive Voldemort's killing curse that would eliminate the soul piece.  He tells Potter that Voldemort's intake of Lily Potter's blood keeps him alive.  He was waiting for Potter to tell him he had a choice to pass on or go back.  Why would Potter return except to finish what he started?  I suspect Dumbledore knew Potter would be the one to finish Voldemort.
> 
> Dumbledore's will left the Sword of Gryffindor to Potter, to tell him how to destroy horcruxes.  He left the Deluminator to Ron Weasley, knowing that Ron would leave the quest and need a way to return.  He left the Hallows story to Hermione Granger, hoping to divert Harry, or so he said.  He left the Snitch to Potter to open at the close, knowing Potter would willingly go to his death.  Dumbledore put all the pieces in place, and waited for the story to play out.  The rest was just so much filler.
> 
> The only part of his plan Dumbledore admits didn't work as he intended was Snape not ending up with the Elder Wand.  We aren't told why that was important.  From Snape's reaction in the Shrieking Shack, I think it's safe to conclude Snape didn't even know about the Elder Wand.  I think Dumbledore knew Voldemort would attack Snape to get a wand that could defeat Potter.  This part of the plan makes little sense except as a way to kill Snape.  It even subverts Snape's getting a message to Potter.  But lo, it all worked out to Potter's best interest in the end.
> 
> I don't think Dumbledore expected Snape to kill Voldemort.  I think he had faith that it would be Potter.  Or, as he says, "I guessed.  But my guesses have usually been good."  And, because Dumbledore had secret information and good guessing skills, Snape put his faith in Dumbledore's plan, even though that never worked out well for Snape personally.
> 
> lealess
>
Nikkalmati

What we see in DH is Plan D, if anything.  Dumbledore at first, when Harry came to school, thought that Harry would have to die at LV's hand and possibly he (Dumbledore) would have to kill LV. Plan A.

After LV revived himself in GOF with Harry's blood Dumbledore began to think Harry would survive because LV had extended his mother's protection by taking Harry's blood into himself.  He still had no reason to believe Harry could kill LV, and probably thought he would have to do it himself, after he had found all the Horcruxes.  He started searching LV's past and tried to find out how many Horcruxes there were from Slughorn.  Plan B.   

After he was cursed by the ring and had to realize he would not be around to mop up, DD had to consider what would happen after Harry went to his death.  He gave Snape the task of informing Harry that he had a piece of LV in him that could only be removed by Harry's dying, but apparently did not tell him about the Horcruxes.  (As he is going out the door of the office in DH, Snape asks why Harry needs the sword and DD's portrait refuses to say.)  DD has no reason to believe Harry will end up as Master of the Elder Wand and so he has no reason to believe Harry can defeat LV.  He admits to Harry in King's Cross he intended for Snape to take the wand, after killing him.  He must have intended for Snape to kill LV.  Of course, that means the wand would be back in circulation, but I can't think DD believes Harry has the power to kill LV in a duel.  Plus, he wants Harry to remain innocent of homicide.  (Plan C)

We know Draco ended up the Master of the Wand - without knowing it.  It is not clear whether Snape knew about the Wand's power.  He must have known that LV took DD's wand, because he let LV into the Hogwart's grounds and I imagine LV left the tomb a mess when he left.  I can't imagine he is the type to clean up after himself.  :>).  As each wand is special, I believe Snape also would recognize DD's wand in the hands of LV when he next saw him.  What actually happens could not have been anticipated by DD.  Harry became Master of the Wand, LV did not try to kill Harry again in the forest or order one of his minions to do it for him, because he thought Harry was really dead this time, and when they met in the Great Hall, the Wand knew Harry was its Master and would not kill him.  LV's own curse killed him so Harry remained innocent.  Harry plans never to use the Wand again.  (Plan D).

Nikkalmati 




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 15:45:39 2010
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:45:39 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's plan was Doing it for Lily?
In-Reply-To: <031D3FB9A4C94DCF9E2E65700D3B1FBA@homemain>
Message-ID: <hleej3+6mtu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188928


> > Pippin:
> > Harry never had proof of all the evil things he believed about Snape and 
> > the Slytherins. So why should we insist upon proof before we stop 
> > believing them?


> Shelley:
> But no proof? Hadn't everyone told Harry just how awful the Death Eaters 
> were? Universally agreed on their opinion of the Death Eaters? Harry saw 
> first hand with the Mark in the Sky at the World Cup how the Death Eaters 
> paraded with reckless disregard for Muggles when they dangled the camp 
> owner's family in the air, read in the newspaper of the deaths and 
> disappearances of so many people.

Zara:
Pippin wrote of Slytherins. 

> Shelley:
> Snape himself wore the mark of the Death 
> Eater- was that not proof that he had to have done some act to earn it? 

Zara:
What act do you suppose Draco committed, to earn his Dark Mark? It appears he was already marked before the start of the school year in HBP....

> Shelley:
> Keep 
> in mind that even wearing a Dark Mark, with no further evidence needed, was 
> enough to put a man in Azkaban in the justice system of the Wizards, so 
> undoubted sure were they of the weight it carried. 

Zara:
Yes, and that very system chose not to so deal with Snape, on the basis of evidence that he had acted in the service of the good guys during the war. Evidence of which Harry was fully cognizant since GoF, having witnessed Albus's testimony on the matter.





From sherriola at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 20:13:43 2010
From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:13:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hl9vv0+um0f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <JPEOJEKINDMDGFKNAANIOEHLDLAA.sherriola@gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188929

Danielle
> My biggest disappointment with the entire series was that there was not a
scene in the 5th book when Harry apologized to Snape for how his father had
treated him.  I was waiting for it after Harry witnessed the Levicorpus
moment and James' humiliation of Snape.

Nikkalmati

I think it would have made sense at that point in the story for Harry to
have done something to apologise for his behavior and to indicate he was
ashamed of his father's.  This is one of the unresolved conflicts that JKR
left hanging.  (I mentioned earlier that we are not privileged to see how
Snape resolved the conflict between his promise to protect Harry and the
reason DD asked him to make that promise.)  Here we dont see how Harry
resolves the shock of seeing his father behave as a bully with his previous
view of his father as a popular and talented hero.  He even questions how
his mother could have married James and speculates that maybe James gave her
a potion.



Sherry now:

I disagree that Harry owed Snape an apology for his father's actions.  The
only apology he owed him, in that worst memory instance, was the one for
looking at the memories in the first place.  Nobody owes another person an
apology for the actions of another person, in my opinion.  And if we were to
assume that Harry did indeed owe Snape such an apology--something with which
I do not agree--then why doesn't Snape, the adult in this relationship, owe
Harry an apology for bullying James right back, or more importantly, why
doesn't Snape owe Harry one big apology for treating him, Harry, so
horribly.  But my basic point is that I don't agree that Harry should have
to apologize for his father's actions, or for the actions of any other
person.  He's only responsible for his own actions.

Sherry




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb 16 21:31:32 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:31:32 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <JPEOJEKINDMDGFKNAANIOEHLDLAA.sherriola@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hlf2rk+s712@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188930

 
> Sherry now:
 But my basic point is that I don't agree that Harry should have
> to apologize for his father's actions, or for the actions of any other
> person.  He's only responsible for his own actions.
> 

Pippin:
The books haven't got much use for apologies, IMO. The only time Harry insists on an apology, it's from Ron, and it's just an excuse for not trying to make things up with him. Once Harry is genuinely ready to forgive, he doesn't need to hear an apology any more. 

Snape tries desperately to apologize to Lily, but it's too late. He was, IMO, genuinely sorry for what he'd said, but not for associating with people who used that word all the time. If he'd been ashamed of them, she might have forgiven him. But if he'd been ashamed of them, he wouldn't have been hanging with them in the first place.

In fact, I think the books haven't got much use for shame in general. It, like pain, is seen as positive only in that it can teach  you to avoid the things that cause it. If you can't avoid them, or you aren't willing to, it's just a useless burden. OTOH, if you can mend your ways before you become ashamed of them, so much the better.



Pippin 




From lealess at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 16 22:12:19 2010
From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:12:19 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hled8b+8ari@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlf583+ievn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188931






--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> What we see in DH is Plan D, if anything. Dumbledore at first, when Harry came to school, thought that Harry would have to die at LV's hand and possibly he (Dumbledore) would have to kill LV. Plan A.

I agree that the plan changed over the years as more information became available to Dumbledore, but based on the Prophecy, which stated "either must die at the hand of the other," I think Dumbledore always believed that Potter would have to kill Voldemort.  He was training him up and laying challenges in his path to prepare him for this task.

I think it was the destruction of Diary Tom in COS that clued Dumbledore onto Horcruxes and the possibility of Potter being one in need of destruction.

> After LV revived himself in GOF with Harry's blood Dumbledore began to think Harry would survive because LV had extended his mother's protection by taking Harry's blood into himself. He still had no reason to believe Harry could kill LV, and probably thought he would have to do it himself, after he had found all the Horcruxes. He started searching LV's past and tried to find out how many Horcruxes there were from Slughorn. Plan B.

I'm with you on the blood protection enabling Potter to survive, and Dumbledore knowing that and taking some comfort from it.  I still think he expected Potter to have to kill Voldemort because of the Prophecy.  Dumbledore could protect and train Potter, excluding most of OOTP, and there, he could duel with Voldemort (but not kill him, even with the Elder Wand) and cry to Potter about Potter's role.  If I remember, he didn't contradict Potter's perception that Potter was chosen to kill Voldemort.

> After he was cursed by the ring and had to realize he would not be around to mop up, DD had to consider what would happen after Harry went to his death. He gave Snape the task of informing Harry that he had a piece of LV in him that could only be removed by Harry's dying, but apparently did not tell him about the Horcruxes. (As he is going out the door of the office in DH, Snape asks why Harry needs the sword and DD's portrait refuses to say.) DD has no reason to believe Harry will end up as Master of the Elder Wand and so he has no reason to believe Harry can defeat LV. He admits to Harry in King's Cross he intended for Snape to take the wand, after killing him. He must have intended for Snape to kill LV. Of course, that means the wand would be back in circulation, but I can't think DD believes Harry has the power to kill LV in a duel. Plus, he wants Harry to remain innocent of homicide. (Plan C)

I think Dumbledore was somewhat deluded in HBP about how long he would be able to stick around to train Potter.  When it came down to actually dying on the Tower, he asked for Severus. At this point, he was not trying to be saved, but was rather going to ask Snape to put him out of his misery/block the potion's end result, and ostensibly transfer the wand to Snape.  That would have been a fake transfer, since Dumbledore intended the Elder Wand's power to die with him, a death Dumbledore both wanted and commanded.  I don't think Dumbledore intended reluctant-killer Snape to murder Voldemort.  I think Dumbledore still felt that job fell to Harry as The Chosen One, along with everything else.

> We know Draco ended up the Master of the Wand - without knowing it. It is not clear whether Snape knew about the Wand's power. He must have known that LV took DD's wand, because he let LV into the Hogwart's grounds and I imagine LV left the tomb a mess when he left. I can't imagine he is the type to clean up after himself. :>). As each wand is special, I believe Snape also would recognize DD's wand in the hands of LV when he next saw him. What actually happens could not have been anticipated by DD. Harry became Master of the Wand, LV did not try to kill Harry again in the forest or order one of his minions to do it for him, because he thought Harry was really dead this time, and when they met in the Great Hall, the Wand knew Harry was its Master and would not kill him. LV's own curse killed him so Harry remained innocent. Harry plans never to use the Wand again. (Plan D).

Dumbledore's stated reason for setting Potter after the Hallows still makes no sense to me, but I think he suspected Potter would somehow end up with the Elder Wand, otherwise why put him in mind of it?  Snape actually having the Elder Wand and using it against Voldemort relied on the gamble that Snape could stay alive after Potter's non-death, even though Dumbledore himself painted the irresistible target of the wand on Snape.  But I don't think Dumbledore told Snape about the wand, or that Snape figured it out, though I admit we will probably never know.  Snape seemed surprised to see Dumbledore's wand in Voldemort's hand in the Shack, if I remember correctly, but if he did recognize it earlier, maybe he thought it was just the grotesque trophy of a psychopath.  It seemed to take Snape a few seconds to even realize what the Elder Wand was, and then make the jump to who really owned it, which of course he kept secret.

In any event, I still see Dumbledore sitting smugly somewhere waiting for Potter to appear so he could explain how cunning his plan was in its details, knowing that Potter would return to finish Voldemort, as Dumbledore always expected him to do.

I could be completely wrong about this, of course.  It just seems more plausible to me.

lealess




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Feb 17 02:07:22 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:07:22 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <JPEOJEKINDMDGFKNAANIOEHLDLAA.sherriola@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hlfj0q+8612@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188932



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" <sherriola at ...> wrote:
>
> Danielle
> > My biggest disappointment with the entire series was that there was not a
> scene in the 5th book when Harry apologized to Snape for how his father had
> treated him.  I was waiting for it after Harry witnessed the Levicorpus
> moment and James' humiliation of Snape.
> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> I think it would have made sense at that point in the story for Harry to
> have done something to apologise for his behavior and to indicate he was
> ashamed of his father's.  This is one of the unresolved conflicts that JKR
> left hanging.  (I mentioned earlier that we are not privileged to see how
> Snape resolved the conflict between his promise to protect Harry and the
> reason DD asked him to make that promise.)  Here we dont see how Harry
> resolves the shock of seeing his father behave as a bully with his previous
> view of his father as a popular and talented hero.  He even questions how
> his mother could have married James and speculates that maybe James gave her
> a potion.
> 
> 
> 
> Sherry now:
> 
> I disagree that Harry owed Snape an apology for his father's actions.  The
> only apology he owed him, in that worst memory instance, was the one for
> looking at the memories in the first place.  Nobody owes another person an
> apology for the actions of another person, in my opinion.  And if we were to
> assume that Harry did indeed owe Snape such an apology--something with which
> I do not agree--then why doesn't Snape, the adult in this relationship, owe
> Harry an apology for bullying James right back, or more importantly, why
> doesn't Snape owe Harry one big apology for treating him, Harry, so
> horribly.  But my basic point is that I don't agree that Harry should have
> to apologize for his father's actions, or for the actions of any other
> person.  He's only responsible for his own actions.
> 
> Sherry
>
Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Feb 17 02:09:14 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:09:14 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <JPEOJEKINDMDGFKNAANIOEHLDLAA.sherriola@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hlfj4a+osh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188933



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" <sherriola at ...> wrote:
>
> Danielle
> > My biggest disappointment with the entire series was that there was not a
> scene in the 5th book when Harry apologized to Snape for how his father had
> treated him.  I was waiting for it after Harry witnessed the Levicorpus
> moment and James' humiliation of Snape.
> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> I think it would have made sense at that point in the story for Harry to
> have done something to apologise for his behavior and to indicate he was
> ashamed of his father's.  This is one of the unresolved conflicts that JKR
> left hanging.  (I mentioned earlier that we are not privileged to see how
> Snape resolved the conflict between his promise to protect Harry and the
> reason DD asked him to make that promise.)  Here we dont see how Harry
> resolves the shock of seeing his father behave as a bully with his previous
> view of his father as a popular and talented hero.  He even questions how
> his mother could have married James and speculates that maybe James gave her
> a potion.
> 
> 
> 
> Sherry now:
> 
> I disagree that Harry owed Snape an apology for his father's actions.  The
> only apology he owed him, in that worst memory instance, was the one for
> looking at the memories in the first place.  Nobody owes another person an
> apology for the actions of another person, in my opinion.  And if we were to
> assume that Harry did indeed owe Snape such an apology--something with which
> I do not agree--then why doesn't Snape, the adult in this relationship, owe
> Harry an apology for bullying James right back, or more importantly, why
> doesn't Snape owe Harry one big apology for treating him, Harry, so
> horribly.  But my basic point is that I don't agree that Harry should have
> to apologize for his father's actions, or for the actions of any other
> person.  He's only responsible for his own actions.
> 
> Sherry
>
Nikkkalmati

I don't believe I said anything about Harry apologizing for James, but I do believe he should share his feelings of disgust for James' behavior. 

Nikkalmati (sorry for blank post) 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 17 03:04:24 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:04:24 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hlfj4a+osh9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlfmbo+nev1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188934

> Nikkkalmati:
> 
> I don't believe I said anything about Harry apologizing for James, but I do believe he should share his feelings of disgust for James' behavior. 

Alla:

I guess I do not quite understand then how is  belief that Harry should have "shared his feelings of disgust for James behaviour" is not the same as demanding an apology from Harry for James' behavior.

I seriously do not understand the difference here. It is probably just semantics, but I do not get it.

It is still demanding from Harry to take responsibility for somebody else's actions, is it not?


Alla,

who is definitely with Sherry on this one.




From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 17 11:28:04 2010
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:28:04 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hlfmbo+nev1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlgjs4+bggv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188935

Alla:
> 
> I guess I do not quite understand then how is  belief that Harry should have "shared his feelings of disgust for James behaviour" is not the same as demanding an apology from Harry for James' behavior.
*snip*
> It is still demanding from Harry to take responsibility for somebody else's actions, is it not?

Ceridwen:
Not the same thing at all.  Harry can share his feelings of disgust over the action without apologizing for it.  He can simply say, "Gee, that was really mean of them.  I'm disgusted."  He can say the same thing to Ron and Hermione without it being an apology, or to Dumbledore, or to Lupin, though if he said it to Lupin there would be some judgment there because Lupin was involved.  Judgment is not the same thing as an apology.  Nor is sharing an opinion.

Harry can't apologize for James.  Harry isn't James.  Only James can apologize for James.  Harry can have an opinion on James's actions, which is what disgust would be.  Now, some people might say that Harry can apologize for James since James is incapable of apologizing for himself, being dead and all, but I don't think he can.  Harry was never told by James that he regretted this action.  He would have nothing to go on other than his own feelings, which may or may not have been the same as James's.  He didn't know James so he couldn't even apologize based on what he knew first-hand, the way a parent might apologize for a tantruming child - and, the parent is responsible for the child while the child is not responsible for the parent.

I think that some readers regret the chance for some kind of reconciliation between Harry and Snape was right there but the moment passed without it being resolved.  By sharing his disgust over James's actions Harry might have been able to bridge the gap between him and Snape.  If he had apologized for his own action of Pensieve diving, that might have been more effective and believable because, after all, Harry was still shocked at his father's unexpected actions and perhaps unable to talk about his reaction until he'd processed it.  Just speaking of Harry here, not of Snape.

Ceridwen.




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Feb 17 13:44:25 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:44:25 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hlfmbo+nev1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlgrrp+t0fh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188936



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Nikkkalmati:
> > 
> > I don't believe I said anything about Harry apologizing for James, but I do believe he should share his feelings of disgust for James' behavior. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I guess I do not quite understand then how is  belief that Harry should have "shared his feelings of disgust for James behaviour" is not the same as demanding an apology from Harry for James' behavior.
> 
> I seriously do not understand the difference here. It is probably just semantics, but I do not get it.
> 
> It is still demanding from Harry to take responsibility for somebody else's actions, is it not?
> 
> 
> Alla,
> 
> who is definitely with Sherry on this one.
>
Nikkalmati

No it is not the same thing.  Apologizing is taking responsibility for something.  It's saying I should have done something differently or I regret what I did.  That is what Harry should say about looking in the Pensieve.  Harry could say at thee same time that he recognizes that what his father and Black did was wrong.  He could say "I know what it's like to be hunted and chased by bullies.  It happened to me all the time at home."  Snape probably thinks Harry is amused by the scene and shares it with his friends.  Not true of course, but only we know that.  

Nikkalmati  




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 17 15:04:16 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:04:16 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hlfmbo+nev1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlh0hg+gmid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188937

 
> Alla:
> 
> I guess I do not quite understand then how is  belief that Harry should have "shared his feelings of disgust for James behaviour" is not the same as demanding an apology from Harry for James' behavior.
> 
> I seriously do not understand the difference here. It is probably just semantics, but I do not get it.
> 
> It is still demanding from Harry to take responsibility for somebody else's actions, is it not?

Pippin:
When Dumbledore said, "You disgust me," he wasn't taking responsibility for Snape's actions.
 
I will say in defense of Harry that  Snape was in no mood to listen to him, not that he ever was. The sad thing is that Snape never gave himself a chance to know the real Harry, and never had  a chance to let Harry know who he really was (Dumbledore's man and Lily's friend)  until the moment of his death. 

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 17 16:21:11 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:21:11 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hlgjs4+bggv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlh51n+gg65@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188938


Alla:
>
> I guess I do not quite understand then how is belief that Harry should have
"shared his feelings of disgust for James behavior" is not the same as
demanding an apology from Harry for James' behavior.
*snip*
> It is still demanding from Harry to take responsibility for somebody else's
actions, is it not?

Ceridwen:
Not the same thing at all. Harry can share his feelings of disgust over the
action without apologizing for it. He can simply say, "Gee, that was really
mean of them. I'm disgusted." He can say the same thing to Ron and Hermione
without it being an apology, or to Dumbledore, or to Lupin, though if he said it
to Lupin there would be some judgment there because Lupin was involved. 
Judgment is not the same thing as an apology. Nor is sharing an opinion. <SNIP>



Alla:

This is also reply to Nikkalmati, since she seems to be saying similar thing. I just do not want to quote too much.

See, I think I understand and agree that it will not be an apology if he is saying it to anybody else, but if it is expressed to another party who is involved, I think in essence it is an apology, judgment that is, even if the words I am sorry are not said.

Like see below what I wrote to Pippin, does it make sense? I mean if for example I say to victim of robbery, I am disgusted over the actions of the person who robbed you. How is it not my apology for a robber, even if I am not saying the words `I am sorry'? I will ask you off list tonight, ok, probably I just need to wrap my mind around subtle language differences.

Not that I MIND Harry saying that. I just feel that it is extremely unfair burden to place on him while not placing any burden on Snape.

Ceridwen:
<SNIP>
I think that some readers regret the chance for some kind of reconciliation
between Harry and Snape was right there but the moment passed without it being
resolved. By sharing his disgust over James's actions Harry might have been
able to bridge the gap between him and Snape. <SNIP>

Alla:
Oh I get that and totally understand that, I also would not mind to see it, albeit in different context, I am just disagreeing with how this reconciliation is supposed to play out, you know?

Some Snape fans (I am generalizing because there are more than one of you guys in the thread and all of you are Snape fans,lol, so I do not mean every Snape fan under the moon) want Harry to share his disgust over his father's behavior in this scene, I for example may want Snape to show kindness to Harry in that scene that Montavilla and myself discussed from HBP, or I may want Snape to show kindness to Harry in PoA, or PS, or any other book,  you know?

In other words I want the party whom I consider really and truly guilty to START this reconciliation, not the boy who was unfairly attacked by that sad individual from the first lesson and oh surprise, this boy learned not to have any good feelings about this individual even when it is warranted.

Pippin:
When Dumbledore said, "You disgust me," he wasn't taking responsibility for
Snape's actions.
Alla:

Well, of course not, he was expressing how Snape's actions disgust him after all. But I do not think the analogy works, it is more like if Dumbledore would have told Harry I share your disgust  over Snape delivering prophecy to Voldemort IMO. I understand that Dumbledore does not say the words "I am sorry", but to me what he would be saying and even more importantly to whom he would be saying it is the equivalent of the apology, if that makes sense.

Pippin:
I will say in defense of Harry that Snape was in no mood to listen to him, not
that he ever was. 

Alla:

Right, to me I do not think that Harry needs any defense here, for not expressing the disgust, I mean, not for jumping in the pensieve.

Pippin:
The sad thing is that Snape never gave himself a chance to
know the real Harry, and never had a chance to let Harry know who he really was
(Dumbledore's man and Lily's friend) until the moment of his death.

Alla:

That I agree with of course, but it is Snape's loss as far as I am concerned, definitely Snape's loss. I know I said it before, but I will say it again, Snape could have had Harry's affection so so easily IMO, Harry was ready to love any father's figure, anybody who shows him a bit of kindness and Snape could have had a part of Lily at least liking him.  Instead this is how he treated the child of the woman he loved.






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 17 17:18:40 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:18:40 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hlf583+ievn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlh8dg+8qed@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188940




--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" <lealess at ...> wrote:

> I agree that the plan changed over the years as more information became available to Dumbledore, but based on the Prophecy, which stated "either must die at the hand of the other," I think Dumbledore always believed that Potter would have to kill Voldemort.  He was training him up and laying challenges in his path to prepare him for this task.

Pippin:

I agree that Dumbledore's plan evolved over time. 

But I don't think he chose Harry because of the prophecy. *Voldemort* chose Harry because of the prophecy, and Dumbledore took advantage of that. 

The problem with killing Voldemort, as Harry says at one point, was that no one knew how to track him down. But Dumbledore realized that Voldemort would come after whoever he believed to be its subject as long as that person remained alive. That person might  be trained and equipped to face Voldemort, provided he had the power and the ability -- but Lily showed there was another way. 


 Thinking of Lily as an Order member has altered my whole perspective on what she did. Her countercurse didn't only protect her son, it turned him into a booby trap. I don't know if she realized that when the curse struck Harry it would rebound on his attacker-- but if she didn't, she still ought to get the credit for sheer dumb luck. Only she didn't, because Dumbledore (and JKR) led  everyone to think it was something about *Harry* that had turned the curse. 

 Voldemort eventually realized that his curse had rebounded because of the power of Lily's love. He took Harry's blood into his body so that wouldn't happen again, but he didn't consider that *Harry* could place the same protection on other people that Lily had. Dumbledore, however, did think of that. That's why it was so important that Harry "go to meet his death" instead of dying in combat. 

Anything that killed Harry would destroy the soul bit. But only if Harry died willingly  and by choice at Voldemort's hands could Harry invoke the same protection, and set up the same trap, that Lily had used to save him. Harry could save others from Voldemort -- and give anyone, even someone with no more magical prowess than a baby, the power to turn Voldemort's curse back on him. Provided the horcruxes were gone, Voldemort would die, as he should have died at Godric's Hollow. 

I think it was finally realizing all of what Lily had done (and never been recognized for) that sent a flood of tears cascading down Snape's face and finally reconciled him to Dumbledore's plan and to telling Harry the truth. The worthless brat should know what sort of woman had died for him -- and he should know, too, what he must do if he truly wished that her death not be in vain.

In the event, Harry had the chance  to come back, secure the Elder Wand, and finish Voldemort as he had always intended. But if he hadn't, then anyone whom Harry had protected could have sent Voldemort's AK flying back at him. This is so obvious I can't believe I never saw it before. I guess I was so bewitched by the picture of Lily the sacrificing mother and martyr that I never realized what she'd done. It was only when I started to think of Lily the soldier that it dawned on me. 

We know DD always expected Voldemort to come back, which means he believed there was at least one horcrux from the beginning. He guessed when he saw the cut on Harry's forehead  that a soul fragment had become lodged in Harry and would give Harry some of Voldemort's powers. 

Now, Dumbledore knew that the horcrux would be hidden with all of Voldemort's powers and cunning, and with a special regard to keeping Dumbledore, who was his most dangerous enemy, from finding it. So Dumbledore had the idea of training Harry, who would have some of Voldemort's own powers, and a set of strengths and weaknesses very different from Dumbledore's,  to find and destroy the horcrux for him. He knew that to make an end of Voldemort, Harry might have to die, but the gleam of triumph shows that DD had some hope this wouldn't be necessary. That was plan A.

However, in OOP, Dumbledore began to have second thoughts. He realized that he loved Harry, and wished that he could have a normal life. He hoped that Harry could protect himself from the encroachments of the soul bit with occlumency and tried to keep him out of the war. Plan B. But it was too late. Harry was already determined to fight Voldemort, and if Dumbledore wouldn't help him, he would do it on his own.

Dumbledore could have fought Voldemort himself, and did, at the Ministry. But he knew it would be no use to try to kill Voldemort until the horcruxes were destroyed. At most he could destroy Voldemort's current body -- but if he did, then Harry would lose the best protection he had. So Dumbledore went back to plan A, with one modification.

Realizing that Voldemort had made more than one horcrux and they might not be as carefully guarded as he thought, Dumbledore undertook to  find and destroy one himself. He succeeded, but at the cost of a incurring a deadly curse. It seemed that only Harry, who had already proved that he could seek to find a treasure and not use it, could safely be trusted to destroy  the incredibly rare and precious magical objects that Voldemort had used. 

Meanwhile, there was the problem of the Hallows. Harry  already had the cloak, and Dumbledore wanted him eventually to realize what it was. He wanted Harry to use the stone, but not too soon. And he didn't want the wand to be used at all by anyone. 

Dumbledore had a plan to disable the wand, but he doesn't seem to have had a lot of confidence in it. A lot could go wrong, and in the event, something did. So he laid his plot to make Hermione think the hallows were fictional, just in case. 

He is ashamed, eventually, that he didn't trust Harry with the truth about these objects from the outset. But Harry himself isn't so sure that Dumbledore did the wrong thing. He *was* tempted by the wand. 

The thing that bugged Harry  most was the thought that Dumbledore had never believed he had a chance to survive, and had betrayed him into a situation where he had no honorable choice but to walk to his death. But that turned out not to be the case.   

Pippin





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Feb 17 23:39:57 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:39:57 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
In-Reply-To: <hla0rl+i8m5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlhuod+69jo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188941


> Questions.
> 
> 1: What was your impression of Colin Creevey when he first appeared? Why do you think that JKR decided to introduce his character?
Potioncat:
Someone has already suggested "innocence" and I would have to agree. He is also a counterpoint to Lockhart in his interest in Harry.
> 
> 2: Can you explain Oliver Wood's apparent obsession with Quidditch, way even beyond keen players like Ron?
Potioncat:
Explain it? No---but I've seen variations of it. 
> 
> 3: Did you find it unfair that the Slytherin team were given permission to practise when Gryffindor have already booked the pitch?
Potioncat:
Unfair? But they really needed the time on the practice pitch more than the Gryffindors did. The Gryffindors were very familiar with their team mates and equipment.  The Slytherins had to learn to work with a new seeker and had to learn how to manage all those state of the art brooms. It wouldn't be fair to have to go out and compete without extra time to prepare!
> 
> 4: Does it surprise you that Fred wasn't sure whether Draco was a Malfoy bearing in mind that he and Harry already had track records of dislike from the previous year? 
Potioncat:
Ron had to be introduced to Romilda. No one knew McClaggen.  It doesn't make sense, but it's the way JKR writes.
> 
> 5: Do you think that Hermione was perhaps biased and unfair in suggesting that money rather than talent got Draco onto the Slytherin team. Surely he must have had some aptitude?
Potioncat:
We don't know do we? Did Draco only get on because of the brooms?I doubt it.  Maybe Lucius bought the brooms to make his son's team better.
> 
> 6: Do you think that the spell Ron tried to use would actually have had Malfoy spitting slugs or did the backfire also alter the result? Is there anything significant in the fact that the backfire produced a green light, a colour  which seems to be associated with more serious spells? Hermione certainly thought it was a difficult curse.
Potioncat:
Since it backfired, as it will with Lockhart, I think Draco would have been coughing up slugs.
> 
> 7: What do you believe prompted Gilderoy Lockhart to press for Harry's detention to be served with him?
Potioncat:
Lockhart does anything to keep himself in the limelight?I think he was trying to collect Harry like Slughorn will later.
> 
> 8: Why do you think that only Harry could hear the disembodied voice?
Potioncat:
The best answer I have is that the sound of Parseltongue in the pipes just sounded like vague noises that the kids didn't pick up.

Thanks Geoff for great questions. I'll add some more comments/questions later.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Feb 18 03:55:01 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:55:01 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
In-Reply-To: <hla0rl+i8m5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlidml+fc77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188942

 
> Questions.
> 
> 1: What was your impression of Colin Creevey when he first appeared? Why do you think that JKR decided to introduce his character?

Pippin:
I thought he was a nuisance. I think JKR introduced him to give some credibility to Dumbledore's claim that the  attention Harry would garner in the WW would be a problem for him. 

> 
> 2: Can you explain Oliver Wood's apparent obsession with Quidditch, way even beyond keen players like Ron?
> 

Pippin:
I don't think it's any stranger than Hermione's obsession with books, or Snape's obsession with potions.

> 3: Did you find it unfair that the Slytherin team were given permission to practise when Gryffindor have already booked the pitch?

Pippin:
No. There was enough room for both teams to practice and the Slytherins were willing to share. 

> 
> 4: Does it surprise you that Fred wasn't sure whether Draco was a Malfoy bearing in mind that he and Harry already had track records of dislike from the previous year? 

Pippin:
The characters never seem to know anyone inside their immediate circle of friends. 

> 
> 5: Do you think that Hermione was perhaps biased and unfair in suggesting that money rather than talent got Draco onto the Slytherin team. Surely he must have had some aptitude?

Pippin:
It was unfair of her. She hadn't seen Draco play yet.

> 
> 7: What do you believe prompted Gilderoy Lockhart to press for Harry's detention to be served with him?

Pippin:
He was planning a short piece for Witch Weekly: "Penance with Potter" :) 

> 8: Why do you think that only Harry could hear the disembodied voice?

Pippin:
Canon mentions the spitting sound the candles made. Lockhart wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Pippin





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Feb 18 11:52:30 2010
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:52:30 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
In-Reply-To: <hlhuod+69jo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlj9lu+805q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188943

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> > 3: Did you find it unfair that the Slytherin team were given permission to practise when Gryffindor have already booked the pitch?

Potioncat:
> Unfair? But they really needed the time on the practice pitch more than the Gryffindors did. The Gryffindors were very familiar with their team mates and equipment.  The Slytherins had to learn to work with a new seeker and had to learn how to manage all those state of the art brooms. It wouldn't be fair to have to go out and compete without extra time to prepare!

Geoff:
Speaking from my experience as a teacher, some of which time involved 
me with games, it didn't have to happen.

There should have been time available for Slytherin to have their own 
practice slot. I wonder whether Marcus Flint had approached Snape and 
asked for the time without going further or whether Snape was just being
Snapeish.

I can remember getting quite cross with a colleague many years ago under 
similar circumstances. I was running a tennis club just for leisure and had 
booked the courts after school when my colleague arrived with a group 
whom he said were due for a match with another school and needed the 
practice and insisted that my group got off the court. There was a lively 
exchange of views - but fortunately no slugs.
:-)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Feb 19 04:13:37 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 04:13:37 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
In-Reply-To: <hlj9lu+805q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hll35h+7v54@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188944


> 
> Geoff:
> Speaking from my experience as a teacher, some of which time involved 
> me with games, it didn't have to happen.
> 
> There should have been time available for Slytherin to have their own 
> practice slot. I wonder whether Marcus Flint had approached Snape and 
> asked for the time without going further or whether Snape was just being
> Snapeish.

Potioncat:
I was thinking the same thing--actually a random teacher shouldn't be able to take someone's field time; the only person wtih authority over the field should be Madam Hooch. But what 6th year would argue with Snape? We never find out how the issue is resolved, because we follow the Trio to Hagrid's.

Geoff:
> 
> I can remember getting quite cross with a colleague many years ago under 
> similar circumstances. 
snip
 There was a lively 
> exchange of views - but fortunately no slugs.
> :-)

Potioncat:
Too bad you didn't know the spell back then. ;-)
>





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Feb 20 18:59:06 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Feb 2010 18:59:06 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/21/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1266692346.477.8977.m10@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188945

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From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Feb 21 02:11:28 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 02:11:28 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hlh51n+gg65@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlq4og+ckpa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188946



> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> This is also reply to Nikkalmati, since she seems to be saying similar thing. I just do not want to quote too much.
> 
> See, I think I understand and agree that it will not be an apology if he is saying it to anybody else, but if it is expressed to another party who is involved, I think in essence it is an apology, judgment that is, even if the words I am sorry are not said.
> 
> Like see below what I wrote to Pippin, does it make sense? I mean if for example I say to victim of robbery, I am disgusted over the actions of the person who robbed you. How is it not my apology for a robber, even if I am not saying the words `I am sorry'? I will ask you off list tonight, ok, probably I just need to wrap my mind around subtle language differences.
> 
> Not that I MIND Harry saying that. I just feel that it is extremely unfair burden to place on him while not placing any burden on Snape.
> 


Nikkalmati

I am not sure I understand.  If I say to a friend, I am disgusted overthe actions of the person who robbed you, I am apologizing for the unkown robber?  No, not at all.  "I'm sorry" can have two meanings.  1. That's too bad. 2. I regret what I did.  In this context (apologize),  we are talking about I'm sorry as meaning I take responsibility for doing something wrong.  Harry cannot take responsibility for things that happened before he was born.  He could say "I'm sorry" to Snape in the meaning of it is too bad that happened to you.   

Nikkalmati

 > Alla:
snip
> In other words I want the party whom I consider really and truly guilty to START this reconciliation, not the boy who was unfairly attacked by that sad individual from the first lesson and oh surprise, this boy learned not to have any good feelings about this individual even when it is warranted.
> 
Nikkalmati

Whether I apologize depends on my own sense of right and wrong, not on whether the other person is worthy.

Nikkalmati
> 
> Pippin:
> I will say in defense of Harry that Snape was in no mood to listen to him, not
> that he ever was. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Right, to me I do not think that Harry needs any defense here, for not expressing the disgust, I mean, not for jumping in the pensieve.
> 
Nikkalmati

The day it happened was not the time to say anything.  Snape needed to cool off and Harry needed to adjust to what he had seen.  It would have had to happen later.

Nikkalmati

> Pippin:
> The sad thing is that Snape never gave himself a chance to
> know the real Harry, and never had a chance to let Harry know who he really was
> (Dumbledore's man and Lily's friend) until the moment of his death.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That I agree with of course, but it is Snape's loss as far as I am concerned, definitely Snape's loss. I know I said it before, but I will say it again, Snape could have had Harry's affection so so easily IMO, Harry was ready to love any father's figure, anybody who shows him a bit of kindness and Snape could have had a part of Lily at least liking him.  Instead this is how he treated the child of the woman he loved.
>
Nikkalmati

Agreed, but we know who is to blame - JKR.  :>).

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Feb 21 03:25:05 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 03:25:05 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hlf583+ievn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlq92h+of8g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188947



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" <lealess at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

> lealess
 
> I agree that the plan changed over the years as more information became available to Dumbledore, but based on the Prophecy, which stated "either must die at the hand of the other," I think Dumbledore always believed that Potter would have to kill Voldemort.  He was training him up and laying challenges in his path to prepare him for this task.
> 

Nikkalmati

DD made it clear when he talked to Harry in HBP that he did not believe in prophecies and that Harry was free to choose to ignore it.  The Prophecy was useful to explain why DD did not go after LV himself, rather than explain to anyone about LV's Horcruxes.  In fact, he did not train Harry to kill LV, and Harry himself wonders why DD was not teaching him any spells or duelling techniques.

Nikkalmati

>lealess

> I think it was the destruction of Diary Tom in COS that clued Dumbledore onto Horcruxes and the possibility of Potter being one in need of destruction.

Nikkalmati
 
We see in PS in the first scene that DD thought Harry's scar was significant.  He began collecting memories about LV a long time back before Morfin died, for example.  

Nikkalmati

> 
>lealess
 
> I'm with you on the blood protection enabling Potter to survive, and Dumbledore knowing that and taking some comfort from it.  I still think he expected Potter to have to kill Voldemort because of the Prophecy.  Dumbledore could protect and train Potter, excluding most of OOTP, and there, he could duel with Voldemort (but not kill him, even with the Elder Wand) and cry to Potter about Potter's role.  If I remember, he didn't contradict Potter's perception that Potter was chosen to kill Voldemort.
> 

Nkkalmati

DD needed to keep Harry in the dark, so the Prophecy was a useful tool in that regard too.  

Nikkalmati

>lealess
 
> I think Dumbledore was somewhat deluded in HBP about how long he would be able to stick around to train Potter.  When it came down to actually dying on the Tower, he asked for Severus. At this point, he was not trying to be saved, but was rather going to ask Snape to put him out of his misery/block the potion's end result, and ostensibly transfer the wand to Snape.  That would have been a fake transfer, since Dumbledore intended the Elder Wand's power to die with him, a death Dumbledore both wanted and commanded.  I don't think Dumbledore intended reluctant-killer Snape to murder Voldemort.  I think Dumbledore still felt that job fell to Harry as The Chosen One, along with everything else.

Nikkalmati

I think DD had a good idea how long he had.  SS had told him he might have a year.  Yes, DD intended for the Wand's power to die with him.  Exactly how that would work is not clear. I still do not believe DD ever put any faith in the Prophecy.  His goal was for LV to kill Harry, who would go to his death willingly without fighting.

Nikkalmati  
> 
> 
> Dumbledore's stated reason for setting Potter after the Hallows still makes no sense to me, but I think he suspected Potter would somehow end up with the Elder Wand, otherwise why put him in mind of it?  Snape actually having the Elder Wand and using it against Voldemort relied on the gamble that Snape could stay alive after Potter's non-death, even though Dumbledore himself painted the irresistible target of the wand on Snape.  But I don't think Dumbledore told Snape about the wand, or that Snape figured it out, though I admit we will probably never know. 
>snip< 

Nikkalmati

Does that mean you think DD set SS up to be killed without telling him?  Not nice.  If LV killed SS to get the wand, Harry was never going to get it. DD willed Harry the stone (in the Snitch) to help him through his ordeal by giving him the vision of his parents, Lupin and Sirius.  Harry found out about the Wand by seeing LV's search for it, and decided in Shell Cottage that DD did not want him to have it. 

Nikkalmati

lealess

> In any event, I still see Dumbledore sitting smugly somewhere waiting for Potter to appear so he could explain how cunning his plan was in its details, knowing that Potter would return to finish Voldemort, as Dumbledore always expected him to do.
> 

Nikkalmati

I still think DD would not want Harry to kill LV and I do not know how Harry could be powerful enough to do it without the Elder Wand.

Pippin thinks if Harry went to his death willingly, that would extend Lily's protection to everyone fighting against LV.  I have to think about that.  In that case, it would not matter if Harry returned from near-death/death, because anyone there could kill LV.

Nikkalmati
>





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 21 03:39:39 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 03:39:39 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hlq4og+ckpa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlq9tr+vlc9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188948

Nikkalmati

I am not sure I understand. If I say to a friend, I am disgusted overthe
actions of the person who robbed you, I am apologizing for the unkown robber? 
No, not at all. "I'm sorry" can have two meanings. 1. That's too bad. 2. I
regret what I did. In this context (apologize), we are talking about I'm sorry
as meaning I take responsibility for doing something wrong. Harry cannot take
responsibility for things that happened before he was born. He could say "I'm
sorry" to Snape in the meaning of it is too bad that happened to you. <SNIP>

Alla:

I had this discussion off list and we decided that this is one of the cultural differences probably. I mean I understand the meaning of "sorry" that you are explaining here, however in the context we are discussing, to me it still implies apology, I just do not see Harry saying Sorry here being only "sorry it happened to you".



> Nikkalmati
> 
> Whether I apologize depends on my own sense of right and wrong, not on whether the other person is worthy.<SNIP>

Alla:
But of course. I however was not talking about Snape being worthy of Harry's apology. I was talking more about Snape owing Harry's problem, period in my opinion and never actually owing up to it. I was talking about Snape being the one responsible for making sure Harry's right and wrong detector was sometimes off where Snape is concerned thanks to Snape's own actions. It is not like I think that Harry for example always behaved properly towards Snape during his school years, of course he misbehaved a plenty.

However, I maintain that Snape met Harry with such ill feelings (Harry could sense hatred on the first lesson and it turns out he was right about that for example) and mistreated him so many times, that as far as I am concerned  if even in situations when Harry ought to apologize and he did not, I still do not blame him for it. Like sure it would be wonderful if he apologized for Pencieve, he did invade Snape's privacy, but five years of abuse (again, in my view of course) would make a person to sort of forget to issue apology to abuser even if the apology is due and owed. And these are Harry's actions for which he is responsible, but I refuse to put any of responsibility for James' actions on his shoulders, period.

JMO,

Alla






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 21 17:12:12 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:12:12 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl2dco+ajv0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlrphc+mun0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188949

Alla wrote:
<snip>

I happen to think based on this quote that he managed to humiliate Harry pretty darn well personally. Oh and I am looking at this chapter and cannot find the words where **Harry** wants to make an entrance looking as he is, I only see Snape telling him that he wants to do that.
> 
> I am going to start quoting after Snape takes points off.
> 
> "The fury and hatred bubbling inside Harry seemed to blaze white-hot, but he would rather been  immobilized all the way back to London than tell Snape why he was late.
> `I suppose you wanted to  make an entrance, did you?" Snape continued. "And with no flying car available you decided that bursting into the Great Hall halfway through the feast ought to create a dramatic effect."
> Still Harry remained silent, though he thought his chest might explode. He knew that Snape had come to fetch him for this, for the few minutes when he could needle and torment Harry without anyone else listening" ? p.161, amer.edition paperback.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> "To needle and torment", "his chest might explode" ? those descriptions are more than enough for me to think that Harry was hurt and humiliated a lot.

Carol responds:

But "needle and torment" is *Harry's* perception. Snape has recently helped to save Harry and his friends by sending the Order to the MoM--as Harry well knows--but Harry at this point is determined to hate Snape and to blame him for Sirius Black's death even though he knows on some level that he's seeking to scapegoat Snape. It's much less painful to blame someone he hates than to acknowledge his own gullibility or Black's recklessness.

Quite possibly, Snape is using Legilimency on Harry; certainly, he knows that he's been involved in some sort of fight given the bloody nose. But I think it's most unlikely that Snape came to fetch him in order to needle and torment him. He came because Hagrid was unavailable--he received Tonks's message for reasons that aren't entirely clear (I suppose her Patronus went to the nearest available Order member?)--and Harry needed an escort. As always, he was keeping an eye on Harry and making sure that he was safe, possibly finding out as much as he could about what delayed him. He may have thought that by "needling" Harry, he would get Harry to blurt out defensively what had happened. He may even have known or suspected that Draco, whom he was also watching over and protecting (the Unbreakable Vow) was involved. He would have wanted to know, with good reason, exactly what had happened to both boys.

At any rate, "Harry knew" is, as I've shown before, a poor guide to what's really happening, especially with regard to the motivation of other characters.

Carol, enjoying Alla's "Snipe" typo and wondering whether it's a Freudian slip




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 21 18:03:54 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 21 Feb 2010 18:03:54 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/21/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1266775434.18.13544.m1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188950

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 21 18:16:21 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:16:21 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl7vu4+rr99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlrt9l+7th1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188951

Montavilla47 wrote:
> <snip> In this scene, I don't think Snape did anything wrong.

Carol responds:
I agree. Well, the number of points he took off was rather large, but he was escorting Harry to safety and no doubt angry that he had somehow managed to endanger himself despite all the protections. And worse, he's refusing to provide any information. Snape has no way of knowing that Harry, whose life he has yet again protected (the MoM) blames *him* for the death of the man he (Snape) told to remain at 12 Grimmauld Place.  

Montavilla47: 
> It would have been *nicer* of him to let Harry wash up first.  Then again, it might have given Harry an opportunity to bolt again.  Better safe than sorry.

Carol responds:

Well, yes, but can you imagine Harry's reaction (and suspicion)if Snape were suddenly nice to him?

Snape: Oh, Harry, are you hurt? We were so worried about you!

Harry (To himself): You hypocritical SOB! You don't give a damn whether I'm injured or not! (Aloud): I'm not hurt!

Snape: I can see blood on your face, Harry. Obviously, something happened--

Harry: It's nothing! It's none of your business!

Snape: I am a teacher and a member of the Order, Harry. I am here to escort and protect you--

Harry: You just want to know what happened so you can deduct points from Gryffindor!

Okay, maybe it wouldn't have happened exactly that way, but Harry would certainly see any uncharacteristic niceness on Snape's part as grounds for suspicion--and with reason. The last DE who was nice to him, Barty Crouch Jr., tried to send him to his death.

Snape is merely behaving in character as a teacher who sees Harry as an arrogant rule breaker and as an Order member who is secretly protecting Harry. He can't find out what happened by asking Harry. I suspect, however, that he has already seen a gloating Draco making nose-smashing gestures to his fellow Slytherins and has some idea of what happened.

And making Harry walk into the room with blood on his face in "Muggle attire" certainly doesn't hurt Harry, however angry it makes him (as if he could be any more angry than he already is). It does, however, prevent him from hiding the consequences of his misbehavior (spying on the Slytherins under his Invisibility Cloak) from Dumbledore.

I'm sure that it's quite clear to Snape (and to Dumbledore and Madam Pomfrey) that Harry is unhurt, even before Hermione cleans the blood off his face. No one comes rushing to his aid because he clearly doesn't need it.

Carol, wondering what the Gryffindors would have done to Draco if he'd spied on them wearing an Invisibility Cloak






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 21 18:52:08 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:52:08 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hl9tjc+q3h8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlrvco+njpr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188952

Carol earlier:
> > 
> > I think we can rule out that he was doing it for Harry, at least! But I agree with you that it would require mental gymnastics to convince himself that he was doing it for Lily. In effect, DD is now asking him to *stop* protecting Harry, as he has done since Lily's death so that her death will not be in vain, and send Harry to his death.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Right absolutely!
> 
> Carol:
> > Now why would Snape do that, when he's appalled by it and when he's already agreed against his will to kill Dumbledore? I don't think that loyalty to Dumbledore is a sufficient motive. He needs something stronger. The only motive that seems sufficient to me is the desire to destroy Voldemort forever. <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> And I totally understand that, honestly. I mean I do not like that the whole WW wanted one boy to save them and DD manipulated them, etc, etc, but I totally understand this desire.
> 
> All what I am asking is that we should call a spade a spade, you know?

Carol:
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. How so?

Alla: 
> It does not mean that I think that getting rid of Voldemort is a bad idea, I am just saying that what happened was Snape agreeing to send Harry to his death, which to me is the exact opposite to Snape continuing to protect Harry's life for Lily, who died to save her son's *life*.
> 
> I think we agree, but I am not sure, so I am sorry if we are not.

Carol again:

I don't think that Snape was agreeing to *send* Harry to his death so much as agreeing that he needed to know about the soul bit. Harry would have faced Voldemort, anyway, but I think that he would have tried to fight him rather than willingly sacrificing himself. Snape's information gives him that choice, and DD knows that Harry will make the right decision. It's no longer kill or be killed. It's vaporize Voldemort and start the whole process over again or be killed and make Voldemort mortal. (Of course, it's more complicated than that thanks to the love magic that saves Harry and weakens Voldemort's spells, but neither Snape nor Harry knows about that part.)

But Snape isn't sending Harry to face Voldemort because Harry would have done so, knowing that he would probably die, in any case. Snape is just giving Harry the final piece of the puzzle, the piece of information that tells him how to defeat Voldemort once and for all. And Snape knows just how crucial that information is, so crucial that he barely hears what Voldemort is saying about the Elder Wand until it's too late because all he wants to do is deliver that message to Harry so Harry can destroy Voldemort. And he performs a spectacular piece of wandless magic as he's dying to get that message to him (along with the essential elements of his life story so that Harry will understand *why* he's doing it) rather than attempting to save himself through healing magic.

Pippin may be right that the letter is crucial. It may help Snape to understand Lily's self-sacrifice and convince him that she would approve of her son's making a similar sacrifice. But, in any case, Snape knows long before he reads that letter that destroying the soul bit is the only way to make Voldemort mortal, and he knows that Harry has to have that information. Harry doesn't have to do what Dumbledore wants him to do. But he does have to make that choice, and he can't do that unless Snape delivers his message.

Carol, who still thinks that Snape would have given that message to Harry without reading Lily's letter but wonders how he could have done it had he not been dying




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 21 19:53:08 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:53:08 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 7 Mudbloods and Murmurs
In-Reply-To: <hla0rl+i8m5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hls2v4+mitc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188953

Chapter Discussion: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 7: Mudbloods and Murmurs
<Snip excellent summary>

> 1: What was your impression of Colin Creevey when he first appeared? Why do you think that JKR decided to introduce his character?

Carol responds:

One of the reasons that so many HP fans regard CoS as their least favorite book (or second least) is that it introduces so many annoying characters. While he can't compete with Dobby in that department, he certainly comes close to Lockhart (without the comic elements). IOW, I found him just as annoying as Harry did. I think that Colin satirizes fanatical fans (if that's not redundant) in much the same way that Lockhart satirizes celebrities who are in love with themselves. They're a variation on a theme, as I think I said before (someone could write a book on fandom and celebrity in the Potterverse). But, of course, Colin also serves to show Harry's aversion to his celebrity status, in marked contrast to Lockhart (and, as we'll later learn, to James).
> 
> 2: Can you explain Oliver Wood's apparent obsession with Quidditch, way even beyond keen players like Ron?

Carol:
He's part of the satire on fandom, as obsessed with Quidditch as Colin is with Harry and Lockhart is with himself. I think that JKR may be poking fun through Oliver at the British obsession with soccer (and other sports?), just as she does later with Ludo Bagman, who can do no wrong in the eyes of the jury even though he's been providing information to a DE spy. (Even Mad-eye Moody cuts Ludo some slack because he's been hit in the head too many times by a Bludger.)
> 
> 3: Did you find it unfair that the Slytherin team were given permission to practise when Gryffindor have already booked the pitch?

Carol responds:
Hard to say. It was certainly unfair that Harry was given a superior broom in SS/PS (and put on the team rather than being punished for disobeying a teacher), so maybe all's fair in love and Quidditch, with even teachers giving every advantage to their own side. Slytherin *did* need to train its new Seeker, but not necessarily at that time. However, they didn't kick Gryffindor off the pitch. They shared it, IIRC. Plenty of room for both teams to practice, I would think, if each uses its own balls and stays to one end of the pitch without interfering with the other. So, yes, it's somewhat unfair, but it pales in comparison with what McGonagall did for *her* team in the previous book.
> 
> 4: Does it surprise you that Fred wasn't sure whether Draco was a Malfoy bearing in mind that he and Harry already had track records of dislike from the previous year? 

Carol:
Not really. Fred and George would have little or nothing to do with Slytherins two classes behind them. Once Draco becomes the Slytherin Seeker, they have reason to be aware of him and to dislike him on principle as a rival and a Slytherin. And he might merit special dislike as the son of their father's enemy.
> 
> 5: Do you think that Hermione was perhaps biased and unfair in suggesting that money rather than talent got Draco onto the Slytherin team. Surely he must have had some aptitude?

Carol:
Yes, I do. After all, we see Draco's talent in SS/PS. But her dislike of Draco and the undeniable fact of the Slytherin team's new brooms blinds her to the possibility that the Slytherins would want a Seeker who could actually play the game.
> 
> 6: Do you think that the spell Ron tried to use would actually have had Malfoy spitting slugs or did the backfire also alter the result? Is there anything significant in the fact that the backfire produced a green light, a colour  which seems to be associated with more serious spells? Hermione certainly thought it was a difficult curse.

Carol:
Well, if it resulted in Ron spitting slugs when it backfired, I see no reason not to think that it would have had the same effect on Draco if the wand hadn't been broken. (JKR is foreshadowing the Memory Charm, which certainly would have been effective had Lockhart used another wand, backfiring on its caster.) I don't know whether the color is significant or not, but it does suggest that not every spell that casts a green light is an AK. Tonks, for example, is seriously injured by a green-lit spell in OoP, but had it been AK, she would have died. Also, the DEs cast a green light around themselves in GoF as they use a Hover Charm and other spells (including Levicorpus) on the Robinson family. Possibly, Levicorpus or Wingardium Leviosa also produces a green light?
> 
> 7: What do you believe prompted Gilderoy Lockhart to press for Harry's detention to be served with him?

Carol:
Lockhart likes Harry as a fellow celebrity "almost" as famous as he is. He thinks he's doing Harry a favor, getting him off easy, just as he thinks he's entertaining the students with the dwarfs on Valentine's Day. He's a deluded moron; Harry would have had a more enjoyable time cleaning trophies with Ron--better company, at any rate.
> 
> 8: Why do you think that only Harry could hear the disembodied voice?

Carol:
Because he's the only true Parselmouth in the school thanks to the soul bit. If DD can understand Parseltongue, as he seems to in HBP (he never actually speaks it), it would be an acquired skill like his ability to speak Mermish, not an inherited gift as it is with Slytherin and at least some of his descendants (Voldemort and the Gaunts). Harry, of course, speaks and understands it instinctively only because of the soul bit, which is part of Voldemort. If the Basilisk wandered through the pipes in Tom Riddle's day, Tom would have heard him (but DD would not).

Carol, who hasn't yet read anyone else's answers and may change her mind on some points




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 21 20:59:16 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:59:16 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hlh51n+gg65@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hls6r4+c0h2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188954

Alla wrote:
<snip> 
> See, I think I understand and agree that it will not be an apology if he is saying it to anybody else, but if it is expressed to another party who is involved, I think in essence it is an apology, judgment that is, even if the words I am sorry are not said.
> 
> Like see below what I wrote to Pippin, does it make sense? I mean if for example I say to victim of robbery, I am disgusted over the actions of the person who robbed you. How is it not my apology for a robber, even if I am not saying the words `I am sorry'? I will ask you off list tonight, ok, probably I just need to wrap my mind around subtle language differences.
> 
> Not that I MIND Harry saying that. I just feel that it is extremely unfair burden to place on him while not placing any burden on Snape.

Carol responds:

First, I agree with you that Harry has not need to apologize for any behavior but his own invasion of Snape's memories in the Pensieve (not that Snape gave him the opportunity). He's not responsible for his father's actions. Nevertheless, he's definitely ashamed of his father's actions, and, for the time being, he's completely in sympathy with Snape, even after Snape chases him from his office in a rage.

Of course, here, as in so many other instances in the HP books, Harry can't say what he wants to say. Even if Snape weren't raging at him, just to speak of Snape's humiliation at his father's hands (which he knows Snape didn't want him to see) is impossible. (He doesn't know that what James said and did is not the worst part of that memory for Snape, but it's bad enough.) You simply don't say to someone who has power over you that you feel sorry for them or for something that happened in their past, especially if that person already hates you. He could, however, have said that he was sorry for entering the memories that Snape obviously didn't want him to see, for, in essence, sneaking and snooping, but he doesn't have the opportunity and it's unlikely that Snape would have believed him given his view of Harry. This incident just cements Snape's view of Harry, and, eventually, it fades from Harry's memory, along with the three smaller memory flashes involving Snape's childhood, replaced by his awareness of Snape's antipathy toward him and, later, his own desire to believe the worst of Snape from Sirius's death onward. That hatred is intensified by the revelation that Snape revealed the Prophecy to Voldemort and reaches its peak when Snape "murders" DD and all Harry wants is to get revenge on him. The brief moment of understanding on Harry's part, unmatched by a matching revelation of Harry's true character to Snape, is lost until it's too late.

As for saying you're sorry that someone was robbed being an apology for the robber, I don't think that's true, any more than saying you're sorry that someone's loved one died is an apology for the cause of death, whether it's cancer or a drunken driver. There are two kinds of "I'm sorry." One is an apology for your behavior (Tiger Woods's apology for his infidelity, for example). The other is an expression of sympathy: "I'm sorry for your loss" (or sorry that you're not feeling well or that you're disappointed by something). If Harry said that he was sorry for what happened to Snape in SWM, it would be a combination of both--sorry that his dad was a bully (an apology of sorts) and sorry that Snape was a victim (sympathy or pity). But if Harry said that he was sorry for entering the Pensieve, it would be an apology, pure and simple. And Snape, I'm quite sure, wouldn't want to hear either "sorry." 

Carol, who thinks that miscommunication and lost opportunities are a frequent motif in the HP books 




From lealess at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 21 22:50:50 2010
From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:50:50 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hlq92h+of8g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlsdca+fuoa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188955



-- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
>
> DD made it clear when he talked to Harry in HBP that he did not believe in prophecies and that Harry was free to choose to ignore it. The Prophecy was useful to explain why DD did not go after LV himself, rather than explain to anyone about LV's Horcruxes. In fact, he did not train Harry to kill LV, and Harry himself wonders why DD was not teaching him any spells or duelling techniques.

Dumbledore put faith in the Prophecy to the extent that he knew Voldemort believed in the Prophecy and had chosen Potter as the one indicated in it (as Pippin pointed out).  When Voldemort made that choice, then the board was set and Dumbledore had to play with the pieces he got.

As for Dumbledore's training of Potter, it wasn't in fighting, but rather in staying on task and following orders to the letter, no matter how much Potter felt he was incapable (Slughorn) or how much he didn't want to (potion in the cave).  It was also supposedly to enhance Potter's understanding of Voldemort's psychology.

> We see in PS in the first scene that DD thought Harry's scar was significant. He began collecting memories about LV a long time back before Morfin died, for example.

Of course the scar was significant, as it potentially held the riddle to Potter surviving the Killing Curse.  Significant does mean Horcrux, however.  Diary! Tom Riddle gets closer to Horcrux.

When faced with a powerful enemy who may be immortal, it's probably best to gather intelligence on that enemy as soon as possible.

> DD needed to keep Harry in the dark, so the Prophecy was a useful tool in that regard too.

I'm just wondering... why keep Potter in the dark?

> I think DD had a good idea how long he had. SS had told him he might have a year. Yes, DD intended for the Wand's power to die with him. Exactly how that would work is not clear. I still do not believe DD ever put any faith in the Prophecy. His goal was for LV to kill Harry, who would go to his death willingly without fighting.

He lived less than a year, by my calculations, so he may have felt he had some time to have a sit down with Potter and tell him more of what he needed to know.  Malfoy messed up those plans.

The wand's power would die because the transfer would not occur as the result of a battle of wills over the wand, but rather as an intended suicide by proxy.  Dumbledore would not have been defeated, except by himself.  He would have willed his own death, and thus retained mastery of the wand.  That mastery would have died with him.

If it appeared that Snape killed him, then Snape would have been a sitting duck for a Voldemort determined to find a wand to head off the wand trouble he was having with Potter.  Having observed Snape through six books, I think Snape would have taken steps to address that situation, had he known about it, to place himself out of danger so he could fulfill his mission to tell Potter of the embedded soul piece.

As for the Prophecy, see above.  No matter what Dumbledore said, he put his faith wholly in Prophecy Boy Potter to carry out his plans, making no contingency plans.  He also put people in danger to protect the secrets of the Prophecy and cried over Harry's prescribed role at the end of OOTP.  Were these the actions of a rational leader who discounted prophecy?

If he was stressing choice in HBP, he may have been allowing Potter to believe he had a choice, at the same time he demanded absolute obedience from Potter.

> Does that mean you think DD set SS up to be killed without telling him? Not nice. If LV killed SS to get the wand, Harry was never going to get it. DD willed Harry the stone (in the Snitch) to help him through his ordeal by giving him the vision of his parents, Lupin and Sirius. Harry found out about the Wand by seeing LV's search for it, and decided in Shell Cottage that DD did not want him to have it.

Yes, I can only conclude that DD set SS up to be killed, either through negligence or intent.  I wonder why we don't have a scene with DD telling Snape about the wand, when he knew that Voldemort would go after it.  This omission makes no sense except as a way to get rid of someone who, even after the entire story, Dumbledore really did not trust, no matter what he said, let alone like.

Even if Potter decided in Shell Cottage that DD did not want him to have the wand, that doesn't really tell us what DD wanted -- only what Potter decided.  Dumbledore blathers on about the Master of Death thing, how Potter's the only one good enough to hold all three Hallows, in the King's Cross chapter.  I think he expected Potter to get the wand.

However, I'll admit that I don't have enough information to prove this or that Dumbledore set up Snape's death.

> I still think DD would not want Harry to kill LV and I do not know how Harry could be powerful enough to do it without the Elder Wand.

Dumbledore in King's Cross intimated that Potter would be able to finish Voldemort for good, even with Voldemort in possession of the Elder Wand, so I think that's what he might have wanted.  I agree that, with Nagini out of the way, anyone could kill Voldemort, if that person knew about Horcruxes and that Nagini was the last one.  Potter alone had that information, and he took on the responsibility of ending Voldemort.

lealess




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 21 23:45:52 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 23:45:52 -0000
Subject: Chapdisc CoS 6 / Snape and Harry and Legilimency / Chapdisc Cos 7
Message-ID: <hlsgjg+ne4r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188956

CHAPDISC

Megan Real discussed CoS Chapter 6 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188838>:

<<5. What was your initial impression of Justin Finch-Fletchley? >>

I liked him from the moment he spoke; I thought he was a nice kid who wanted to be friendly with everyone, or else maybe I'm just a snob and liked him because of his accent. But it has often struck me as a problem that Draco is portrayed having the same accent as Justin; that had to be done so that readers would recognize that Draco is upper class, but with the separation between wizarding and Muggle worlds, the wizarding upper class would have some quite different accent than the Muggle upper class. So the wizarding-raised students wouldn't have noticed that Justin wasn't just another Muggle-born. 

Considering the way wizards cling to their old-fashioned ways (like wearing medieval and renaissance robes), their upper-class accent would be an old-fashioned accent (with some weirdnesses that had crept in during the centuries of isolation). Where old-fashioned accents survived into the early twentieth century, when they could be recorded on Edison cylinders, they survived among relatively isolated rural working class people. So it's likely that the wizarding upper class accent would strike Muggle-raised students as a jumbled fake accent by the actor of a rural lower-class character in a farce. That's another thing that would irritate snobbish pure-bloods: Muggle-borns look *down* on their upper-class accent.

Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188842>:

<< [Lockhart] shows that amorality isn't necessarily wedded to a lust for power or the practice of the dark arts. Gilderoy isn't seeking world domination and he couldn't curse his way out of a paper bag. He just wants to be famous and sell lots of books. >>

There was already a character doing that job: Rita Skeeter.

Altho' various listies have speculated that Memory Charms ought to be regarded as Dark Curses.

SNAPE AND HARRY

Alla wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188895>:

<< if you are saying that Snape KNOWS about [why Harry arrived late with a broken nose], well, then he used a legilimency on the student without his permission, which I thought Snape did not do. >>

To me, Snape would not have been out of line to use Legilimency to find out why Harry was late, but if he did use Legilimency on Harry, then he knew that the accusations he actually made at Harry were false, the accusations that Harry was deliberately late on purpose to make a grand entrance, that Harry was trying to get attention, and so on. I hate deliberately false accusations.

If Snape wasn't using Legilimency, and wasn't very closely observing Harry's body language, pulse rate, and so on like a living polygraph, then I figure he didn't intend the accusations to be false. Snape believes a number of bad things about Harry that happen to be false, such in the recent thread of Snape believing that Harry approved of the Pensieve scene of his father bullying Snape. 

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188954>:

<< He could, however, have said that he was sorry for entering the memories that Snape obviously didn't want him to see, for, in essence, sneaking and snooping, but he doesn't have the opportunity and it's unlikely that Snape would have believed him given his view of Harry. >>

and Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188937>:

<< The sad thing is that Snape never gave himself a chance to know the real Harry, and never had a chance to let Harry know who he really was (Dumbledore's man and Lily's friend) until the moment of his death. >>

"Snape's view of Harry" = "Snape believes a number of bad things about Harry that happen to be false." = 'Snape never knew the real Harry."

One would have thought that Legilimency would have revealed to Snape that there were some errors in his view of Harry. It's so sad that even Legilimency doesn't help people understand each other.

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188951>:

<< Snape has no way of knowing that Harry, whose life he has yet again protected (the MoM) blames *him* for the death of the man he (Snape) told to remain at 12 Grimmauld Place. >>

Well, he *could* have known by Legilimency. I know that Snape said a Legilimens can't choose which thought to look at, but this particular thought was right at the top of Harry's mind during that encounter. But I separated this comment from the two above, because I think that seeing that Harry blamed Severus for Sirius's death would have made Severus even angrier than more patient with Harry. 

Zara wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188928>:

<< What act do you suppose Draco committed, to earn his Dark Mark? It appears he was already marked before the start of the school year in HBP.... >>

He had already committed to letting the Death Eaters into Hogwarts to kill Dumbledore, and it appears from Narcissa's pleas to Severus that he had already committed to killing Dumbledore himself. Either way, he participated in a conspiracy to commit murder. In the US anyway, conspiracy is a crime even if the conspiracy fails.

CHAPDISC

Geoff discussed CoS Chapter 7 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188914>:

<< 1: What was your impression of Colin Creevey when he first appeared? >>

I felt worse about how Harry treated Colin, trying to avoid him, than about how Colin treated Harry. It's not Colin's fault that he took a picture when Lockhart was there to shove into it and Draco was there to mock: Colin didn't know Lockhart and Draco. I wish Harry could have brought himself to be friendly with Colin; when Colin got to know him as a real person, he would get over the hero-worship, just like Ron did. I understand that Harry, growing up bullied by all, has never learned the social skills of starting a conversation, drawing a person out, and making the person into a friend (I don't know how either, and I don't have his excuse, as well as being much older and allegedly grown-up), but it would have been nice if Harry (and Ron and Hermione) could have kind of mentored the Creeveys.

<< Why do you think that JKR decided to introduce his character? >>

JKR needed a student with a compulsive camera to be not quite killed by the basilisk. Why she gave him a younger brother in the next book is what I don't understand. They both were so brave and so enthusiastic about magic that I really expected them to have a role in the megaplot.  

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188953>:

<< It was certainly unfair that Harry was given a superior broom in SS/PS (and put on the team rather than being punished for disobeying a teacher) >>

Okay, Harry should have been punished for disobeying a teacher, but it would have been unfair if he were punished and Draco wasn't. But that he got a place on the Quidditch team and a broom is not unfair. First, it was already established that the team was looking for a Seeker, and that there had been players as young as Harry in the past (a mere century ago!). Second, every player on each House team got a decent broom. I think Harry's Nimbus 2000 was paid for with money from his own Gringott's vault, not paid for by McGonagall or Dumbledore.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 22 01:16:09 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 01:16:09 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
Message-ID: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188957

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Chapter Discussion: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Chapter 8: The Deathday Party.


October comes with increasing colds among students and increasing Quidditch training sessions. While walking one of the Hogwarts corridors Harry meets Nearly Headless Nick, who is upset because his application to join the Headless hunt was denied, since they only accept headless horsemen. Nick warns Harry to be careful with Filch and not throw mud around. Alas, too late. Filch shows up with Mrs. Norris and Harry is forced to go to his office. Peeves shows up and Filch is chasing after him, while Harry has to wait. Harry is sitting on the chair at the Filch's desk, sees the envelope with beautiful writing and
 you guessed it, he reads it.

Turns out Filch is taking Kwikspell course, when Filch is back he asks Harry if he read the envelope and Harry answers no. Filch lets Harry go without any punishment. Nick is asking Harry if asking Peeves to help worked and Harry agrees that it did, that he did not even get detention. As return of the favor Harry agrees to go to Nick's Deathday party at Halloween where he will be celebrating 500th  anniversary of his death with other hosts.

By the time Halloween arrives Harry regrets that he promised to go, but he goes anyway with Ron and Hermione, after spending some time at the party and getting awfully bored they finally leave, and when they are coming back, Harry hears the voice, who says that it is time to kill and it smells blood and things along that line. He shares the discovery with Ron and Hermione who are quite shocked. Trio is even more shocked when they see the infamous writing on the wall about Chamber's opening and Enemies of the Heir. And of course Mrs. Norris is hanged and not moving. And this chapter closes with Draco Malfoy screaming `Enemies of the Heir beware"


1.	Nick warns Harry to be careful with dripping the mud around, but when I was rereading the chapter I realized that I cannot find any description of Harry doing just that, could somebody point me to it? 

2.	What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking Kwikspell course?


3.	 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any definite dates in the book?

4.	Would you like to go to Deathday party?

5.	Obviously we know now that Draco was not Slytherin Heir, but what do you think was the reason for him saying that?

6.	Ginny is pale at the beginning of the chapter and Percy bullies her into taking the medicine. We find out later about the diary and Tom, but at this point, we don't know. Did Percy seem out of character in "bullying" her?

7.	Filch is a Squib as we know now and he is expected to clean up the messes that magical kids make all the time. Do you think it is too much to expect of him?


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 9, The Writing on the Wall, on February 28, 2010.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion,
please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).


Alla




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Feb 22 03:45:04 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:45:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The
 Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
References: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B81FDC0.4030909@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188959

dumbledore11214 wrote:
> 3.	 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any definite dates in the book?
>   

Bart:
    Ah! A chance to repeat my standard answer to this sort of question:

    "There are three kinds of people in this world; those who can count, 
and those who can't." - J. K. Rowling

    Bart




From allthecoolnamesgone at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Feb 22 15:37:11 2010
From: allthecoolnamesgone at yahoo.co.uk (Karen)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:37:11 -0000
Subject: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hls6r4+c0h2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlu8b7+c06b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188960



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> Carol, who thinks that miscommunication and lost opportunities are a frequent motif in the HP books
>

Karen:

Also is it not true that at the root of the whole pensieve incident was that fact that Snape was angry at Harry's apparent refusal (as he thought)to learn occlumency. Until Harry could become competent as an occlumens and exclude Voldemort from his mind, then surely Snape could not risk any relaxation of his 'cover story' relationship with Harry. Is it not the case that it was not until Snape knew his own death was imminent that he could risk even a minimal rapprochement with Harry for fear it would if Voldemort learned of it from Harry's unclosed mind, destroy Snape's cover and essential role. 

He was I think trapped in his cover story no matter if he might have wanted to seek a better relationship with Harry, he dared not. Even if he had loved Harry as Lily's son, how could he have showed it and not potentially compromised himself? The fact that Harry seemed so much like his father probably just made Snape feel more comfortable in his cover.





From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Feb 22 18:42:42 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:42:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hlu8b7+c06b@eGroups.com>
References: <hlu8b7+c06b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B82D022.5060105@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188961

Karen wrote:
> He was I think trapped in his cover story no matter if he might have wanted to seek a better relationship with Harry, he dared not. Even if he had loved Harry as Lily's son, how could he have showed it and not potentially compromised himself? The fact that Harry seemed so much like his father probably just made Snape feel more comfortable in his cover.
>   

Bart:
    I think it is far more complex than that. There are a bunch of 
contradictions involved, here. He saw Harry as the girl he loved and the 
boy he hated ("girl" and "boy" being used very much on purpose here; as 
far as we know, he never knew the woman and man they became). He also 
has a degree of self-hatred. In terms of skill and talent, he is up 
there with DD and Morty, yet he threw it all away for empty praise from 
phony friends who just wanted to use him. He's largely to blame for 
Lily's death, but it's only human for him to put a large part of the 
blame on Harry (as I have mentioned before, much like Ebenezer Scrooge 
in "A Christmas Carol" was cold towards his nephew because Scrooge's 
beloved sister died in childbirth). It's a shame that Snape doesn't see 
that there IS a James/Snape style rivalry going on between Draco and 
Potter, except the roles are largely reversed.

    Also, before I jumped on the LOLLIPOPS bandwagon, I considered a 
major part of Snape's feelings towards Harry a Salieri/Mozart kind of 
thing, where Snape works hard to achieve his victories, and Harry 
practically falls into his own, while Snape necessarily gets no credit, 
and Harry gets all the accolades (I will point out that while Harry's 
luck factor is not as high as Snape thinks it is, it IS pretty high).

    And, finally, he's charged with protecting Harry, yet he has to keep 
it secret, AND Harry insists on risking his life every few weeks. This 
can be frustrating for ANYBODY.

    As I've said before, I think that when Snape talks about getting 
Harry expelled, he's playing "bad cop". And, once again, other than 
Hagrid, who was thought to have caused a student to die due to his 
reckless breaking of the rules, we know of no student who has ever been 
expelled from Hogwarts. As I've said, I think that "expulsion" in 
Hogwarts is like the death penalty in the Old Testament; bandied about a 
lot, but almost never actually exercised.

    Bart




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb 22 21:29:48 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:29:48 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hlsdca+fuoa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlut0c+53rh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188962

Lealess:
> If it appeared that Snape killed him, then Snape would have been a sitting duck for a Voldemort determined to find a wand to head off the wand trouble he was having with Potter.  Having observed Snape through six books, I think Snape would have taken steps to address that situation, had he known about it, to place himself out of danger so he could fulfill his mission to tell Potter of the embedded soul piece.

Pippin:

Voldemort's notion of killing the wand's previous owner to make himself its master was irrational and contradicted by facts known to Voldemort.  Therefore it's difficult to see how Snape could have anticipated it no matter how much he knew. 


It's canon that Voldemort acted to conceal his theft. 

"It would not do for Snape, or indeed anyone else, to see where he was going. But there were no lights in the castle windows, and he could conceal himself...and in a second he had cast upon himself a Disillusionment Charm that hid him even from his own eyes." -DH ch 24.

If Snape or Portrait!Dumbledore had known that the wand had been taken, they might have acted to protect Snape. But JKR tells us here that they didn't. There's no canon that Snape ever saw Voldemort with his new wand until those last moments in the Shrieking Shack, so he had no opportunity to recognize it either. 

Lealess: 
> As for the Prophecy, see above.  No matter what Dumbledore said, he put his faith wholly in Prophecy Boy Potter to carry out his plans, making no contingency plans.  

Pippin:
Dumbledore's portrait presumably had all the knowledge Dumbledore had and all the memories that he collected are, AFAWK, still in his office. If Snape failed to transmit Dumbledore's message to Harry, or if Harry and his friends failed, the portrait could find others to carry out those tasks. 

Lealess:
He also put people in danger to protect the secrets of the Prophecy and cried over Harry's prescribed role at the end of OOTP.  Were these the actions of a rational leader who discounted prophecy?

Pippin:
Dumbledore put people in danger to guard the prophecy so that if Voldemort showed up to try to steal it, there would be proof that he had returned. Once it became clear that Voldemort's plan was to entice Harry to steal the prophecy, the guards would  no longer be necessary and it appears they were removed. As DD tells Harry, there was never any need to protect the prophecy, and if he had been honest with Harry he would have told him so. 

Certainly he wept over Harry's role, but what has that got to do with the prophecy prescribing it?

 It may not seem rational that Dumbledore would think that anyone  acting alone or with a few helpers, would be capable of destroying Voldemort without the prophecy to suggest it. But Dumbledore comes from a tradition of duels and single combat, and he himself defeated Grindelwald in just that way.

Lealess: 
> If he was stressing choice in HBP, he may have been allowing Potter to believe he had a choice, at the same time he demanded absolute obedience from Potter.

Pippin:
There's a difference between being coerced into obedience and voluntarily agreeing to obey.

Pippin






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb 22 23:24:50 2010
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:24:50 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlv3o2+uj8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188963



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> Chapter Discussion: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
> Chapter 8: The Deathday Party.

<summary snipped>

> 1.	Nick warns Harry to be careful with dripping the mud around, but when I was rereading the chapter I realized that I cannot find any description of Harry doing just that, could somebody point me to it? 

Geoff:
And I quote...

'"You'd better get out of here, Harry," said Nick quickly. "Filch isn't in
a good mood. He's got flu and some third-years accidentally plastered 
frog brains all over the ceiling in dungeon five; he's been cleaning all 
morning and if he sees you dripping mud all over the place..."

..."Filth!" he (Filch) shouted, his jowls aquiver, his eyes popping alarmingly
as he pointed at the muddy puddle that had dripped from Harry's 
Quidditch robes. "Mess and muck everywhere! I've had enough of it, I
tell you! Follow me, Potter!"'
(COS "The Deathday Party" p.96 UK edition)


> 3.	 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any definite dates in the book?

Geoff:
Yes. I find it very useful to be able to anchor the events in a given year - I 
can cast my mind back and remember what I was doing at that particular 
time.

In any book, I like to have a visible and accurate timeline. 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 23 01:20:05 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:20:05 -0000
Subject: Chapdisc CoS 6 / Snape and Harry and Legilimency / Chapdisc Cos 7
In-Reply-To: <hlsgjg+ne4r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlvag5+brf0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188964


> Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188953>:
> 
> << It was certainly unfair that Harry was given a superior broom in SS/PS (and put on the team rather than being punished for disobeying a teacher) >>

Catlady responded: 
> Okay, Harry should have been punished for disobeying a teacher, but it would have been unfair if he were punished and Draco wasn't. But that he got a place on the Quidditch team and a broom is not unfair. First, it was already established that the team was looking for a Seeker, and that there had been players as young as Harry in the past (a mere century ago!). Second, every player on each House team got a decent broom. I think Harry's Nimbus 2000 was paid for with money from his own Gringott's vault, not paid for by McGonagall or Dumbledore.
>
Carol responds:

that's not the impression I got. I think if Harry's money had been used, we'd have learned about it. (McGonagall would have told him.) I think she desperately wanted a Seeker and couldn't resist the opportunity. (If Harry had been a Ravenclaw, would she have run to Flitwick to tell him that she'd spotted the perfect new Seeker in training for the Ravenclaw team? I think not. If it had been Draco who had caught the Snitch, would she have reported the incident to Snape? I'm sure that she wouldn't have.)  

As for other team members having decent brooms, they have what their parents can afford. Oliver (I think) points out Cho Chang's inferior broom in OoP, and Ron rides the broom he got as his reward for becoming a Prefect (a Comet 260 or whatever). When Harry's Nimbus 2000 is smashed by the Whomping Willow, he has to ride a school broom until Sirius Black sends him a replacement (and while the replacement is confiscated).

Harry caught that Snitch, a feat that not even the legendary Charlie Weasley could have accomplished (or so McGonagall says), yet Harry was an untrained first-year on a school broom used to train first-years to fly. Harry doesn't need a new broom, especially not the best available at the time, nor does he deserve one after having violated a teacher's instructions. (If the punishment for breaking the rules is being made a Seeker, Draco should have been made one, too. After all, McGonagall neither knows nor cares about Harry's good intentions in retrieving the Remembrall, and when her interests aren't at stake, she attempts to enforce the rules fairly.

Carol, thinking that this is one of those points we'll never agree on





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 23 01:40:07 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:40:07 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hlv3o2+uj8n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlvbln+gb8j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188965


> > 3.	 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any definite dates in the book?
> 
> Geoff:
> Yes. I find it very useful to be able to anchor the events in a given year - I can cast my mind back and remember what I was doing at that particular time.
> 
> In any book, I like to have a visible and accurate timeline.
>
Carol responds:

Too bad JKR herself is confused about it. She still thinks that Dumbledore died in 1996, not 1997. I think she forgot that the calendar year changes in the fourth month of the school year, just as she seems to forget that most students have a birthday during the school year and speaks of Tom Riddle killing his parents in his sixteenth year when he was actually already sixteen and therefore in his seventeenth year.

But, still, I agree that it's good to have an accurate and visible timeline. I only wish that hers were more accurate and more visible!

Carol, now wondering how DD's age changed from (roughly) 150 to 115




From lealess at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 23 06:22:46 2010
From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 06:22:46 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hlut0c+53rh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hlvs7m+h7mn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188966



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

> Lealess:
> > If it appeared that Snape killed him, then Snape would have been a sitting duck for a Voldemort determined to find a wand to head off the wand trouble he was having with Potter. Having observed Snape through six books, I think Snape would have taken steps to address that situation, had he known about it, to place himself out of danger so he could fulfill his mission to tell Potter of the embedded soul piece.

> Pippin:

> Voldemort's notion of killing the wand's previous owner to make himself its master was irrational and contradicted by facts known to Voldemort. Therefore it's difficult to see how Snape could have anticipated it no matter how much he knew.

> It's canon that Voldemort acted to conceal his theft.

> "It would not do for Snape, or indeed anyone else, to see where he was going. But there were no lights in the castle windows, and he could conceal himself...and in a second he had cast upon himself a Disillusionment Charm that hid him even from his own eyes." -DH ch 24.

> If Snape or Portrait!Dumbledore had known that the wand had been taken, they might have acted to protect Snape. But JKR tells us here that they didn't. There's no canon that Snape ever saw Voldemort with his new wand until those last moments in the Shrieking Shack, so he had no opportunity to recognize it either.

It is also canon that Voldemort took Lucius Malfoy's wand at the very beginning of DH because Voldemort's wand was ineffective against Potter, and when Malfoy's wand failed to defeat Potter, he took Selwyn's.  It is also canon that Voldemort had taken the wandmaker Ollivander prisoner to extract information from him.  I think Snape was aware of all this, and moreover, reported it to Dumbledore, along with Voldemort's request to be let into Hogwarts.  It is also canon that Dumbledore expected Voldemort to go after the Elder Wand.  It's also canon that Voldemort enjoys killing, and has no compunction about murdering his followers.  It's also canon that Voldemort acts irrationally, for example, giving Potter chances to duel when he should have just killed him and been done with it.  Adding all these factors together just says "Wand! Wand! Wand! Kill Snape!" to me.  Yet, I agree that Snape had no idea that Dumbledore's wand was something special or was in Voldemort's possession until he saw it in the Shack.

> Lealess:
> > As for the Prophecy, see above. No matter what Dumbledore said, he put his faith wholly in Prophecy Boy Potter to carry out his plans, making no contingency plans.

> Pippin:
> Dumbledore's portrait presumably had all the knowledge Dumbledore had and all the memories that he collected are, AFAWK, still in his office. If Snape failed to transmit Dumbledore's message to Harry, or if Harry and his friends failed, the portrait could find others to carry out those tasks.

Maybe, maybe not.  The portrait might also have been sealed, never to be heard from again, or the office sealed.  As for Dumbledore's memories, how do we know the memories are still there, and were not hidden away or destroyed once Potter saw them?  It seems an ever-curious Snape might have looked at those memories if they were readily available, and yet, Snape doesn't seem to know something so basic as why Potter needs the Sword of Gryffindor.  We know the Horcrux books have been Accio'd away by Granger.  All Potter noticed in the Headmaster's office was empty portraits and a basin.

In other words, imaginative speculation can be used to prove any point.  We can speculate about what might have happened had the heroes failed, but the fact is that we do not see Dumbledore make a contingency plan for the end game.  What he did was give instructions regarding Potter to Snape, and give the mission of destroying the Horcruxes to Potter and company.  He put a lot of faith in very few people, and kept information from all of them.

> Lealess:
> > He also put people in danger to protect the secrets of the Prophecy and cried over Harry's prescribed role at the end of OOTP. Were these the actions of a rational leader who discounted prophecy?

> Pippin:
> Dumbledore put people in danger to guard the prophecy so that if Voldemort showed up to try to steal it, there would be proof that he had returned. Once it became clear that Voldemort's plan was to entice Harry to steal the prophecy, the guards would no longer be necessary and it appears they were removed. As DD tells Harry, there was never any need to protect the prophecy, and if he had been honest with Harry he would have told him so.

> Certainly he wept over Harry's role, but what has that got to do with the prophecy prescribing it?

> It may not seem rational that Dumbledore would think that anyone acting alone or with a few helpers, would be capable of destroying Voldemort without the prophecy to suggest it. But Dumbledore comes from a tradition of duels and single combat, and he himself defeated Grindelwald in just that way.

You're probably right about the guarding of the Prophecy.

Dumbledore's weeping over Harry's role shows to me that he accepts the Prophecy as determinative.  If the Prophecy was bunkum, he could have laughed it off and encouraged Potter to do the same.  Instead, he communicated that Potter must put himself in mortal danger because of the Prophecy; in other words, he lent credence to its words and helped to put them in action.

Just because someone comes from a tradition of duelling doesn't mean he will only ever bet on one champion, unless he has reason to believe there is only one champion.  That belief came from the Prophecy, before Dumbledore even knew Potter as a person.  Who else was Dumbledore protecting -- the Longbottoms?

> Lealess:
> > If he was stressing choice in HBP, he may have been allowing Potter to believe he had a choice, at the same time he demanded absolute obedience from Potter.

> Pippin:
> There's a difference between being coerced into obedience and voluntarily agreeing to obey.

This is true. There is also a difference between conditioned behavior and voluntary agreement.  Potter was an orphaned boy who'd been abused and isolated.  Then, the greatest wizard of all time took a personal interest in him and even told him he loved him, praised him for his bravery, said he was better than anyone else, and promised to take him on an unparalled learning adventure.  He also said Fawkes followed Potter only because Potter was loyal to Dumbledore, and seemed flattered over the Dumbledore's Army name.  All this would encourage love for Dumbledore.  And to cement this, Dumbledore took support away from a no-doubt attachment-anxious Potter.  He isolated Potter after Diggory's death in GOF.  He withdrew Potter's access to him in OOTP, wouldn't even look at him.  He brushed off Potter's concerns about Malfoy in HBP, and grew unreasonably angry with Potter's failures to obtain Slughorn's memory.  At the end of HBP, he basically had Potter saying "Anything!" in order to go on a Horcrux hunt.  Throughout this, Potter identified himself as "Dumbledore's man," until in DH, we have a Potter so obsessed with knowing what Dumbledore wanted him to do, he scarcely thought about anything else.

In the end, Potter may have had a choice, but there is evidence for me to believe it was a highly-conditioned one.

lealess




From no.limberger at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 16:35:53 2010
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:35:53 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Harry
In-Reply-To: <hl95e1+g85h@eGroups.com>
References: <hl95e1+g85h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7ef72f91002230835l6c1d9082j2e892fb96856776d@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188967

>Danielle wrote:
>My biggest disappointment with the entire series was that there was not a
scene in the 5th book when
>Harry apologized to Snape for how his father had treated him.

No.Limberger responds:
No child can be held accountable for what a parent has done. Harry was not
responsible for what
James did to Snape when he & James were children, but Snape never liked
Harry because of how
James tormented him and because Lily married James. If anyone owed someone
an apology,
I believe it would be Snape for his unjustified behavior towards Harry.  In
the end, there was
a reconciliation between Snape & Harry, and I was happy about that.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Feb 24 03:53:47 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:53:47 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm27sb+sqp2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188968



 
> 
> 1.	Nick warns Harry to be careful with dripping the mud around, but when I was rereading the chapter I realized that I cannot find any description of Harry doing just that, could somebody point me to it? 
> 
> 
Nikkalmati

Yes, it is mentioned as he walks to the castle that they practiced in the rain and NHN warns him he is dripping on the floor.

Nikkalmati

2.	What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking Kwikspell course?
> 
>
Nikkalmati

I didn't like the fact that Harry could not be trusted and was reading someone else's mail.  A foreshadowing of the Pensieve incident, no doubt.  I found it interesting that there was a group that could not do magic though they were wizards.  I also felt sorry for Filch.

Nikkalmati



> 3.	 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any definite dates in the book?
>

Nikkalmati

Yes, it is always good to have some historical markers. It is not as though she was being exctly precise.  Nick's concern about his head makes me think he was wearing a ruff, not because of fashion, but because he wanted to conceal his injury.

Nikkalmati
 
> 4.	Would you like to go to Deathday party?

Nikkalmati

Not as it is deacribed here.  I like better refreshments.

Nikkalmati


> 
> 5.	Obviously we know now that Draco was not Slytherin Heir, but what do you think was the reason for him saying that?
> 
Nikkalmati

I wonder if he knew something from his father.  Maybe his father warned him to be on the lookout and what the return of Slytherine's heir meant.  Maybe it was a bedtime story in the Malfoy household.  He seems very excited at the prospect before anything really bad happens.  I don't think he realized he was implicating himself.

Nikkalmati

> 6.	Ginny is pale at the beginning of the chapter and Percy bullies her into taking the medicine. We find out later about the diary and Tom, but at this point, we don't know. Did Percy seem out of character in "bullying" her?

Nikkalmati

Not at all. He likes to take charge, but I also think he cares about his family and it is interesting he is the one who notices.

Nikkalmati

> 
> 7.	Filch is a Squib as we know now and he is expected to clean up the messes that magical kids make all the time. Do you think it is too much to expect of him?
> 
>
Nikkalmati

I am not sure how much he has to do.  The Elves do some of the work around the castle.  NHN says Filch has been wolking all day.  He seems to have to patrol at night and be available to the teachers for odd jobs.  He keeps busy.  As a squib he doesn't have many career choices and I think he is given this job by DD as a way to provide for him.

Just want to note the destruction of the Vanishing Cabinet in this chaper.  (Black and gold).  Was JKR already planning how it would be used? 

Nikkalmati 
,





From danjerri at madisoncounty.net  Wed Feb 24 13:36:53 2010
From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (Jerri&Dan Chase)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:36:53 -0600
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <1267007422.859.56728.m5@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1267007422.859.56728.m5@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <8C8446898B5540D5BD6CE9B5CD57102E@JerriPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188969

> Just want to note the destruction of the Vanishing Cabinet in this chaper.
>(Black and gold).  Was JKR already planning how it would be used?
>
> Nikkalmati

I think that we can only speculate, but my belief is that JKR did have a 
number of the pieces of the plot planned by this time.  And, I believe that 
the Vanishing Cabinet, both the one that Nick breaks in this chapter and the 
one that Harry hid in, back when he was in Knockturn Alley were part of the 
plan.  I do believe that she had this planned as a way to get bad guys into 
the Castle at some critical point.  I think that she probably also had Draco 
planned as the one to have to "fix" the broken one.  I can't guess if she 
"knew" that it would occur at the end of book 6, and the other details.

Just my personal guess and YMMV.

Jerri


  ----------


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From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 24 17:28:08 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:28:08 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hm27sb+sqp2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm3nj8+sl52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188970




>
> 1. Nick warns Harry to be careful with dripping the mud around, but when I was
rereading the chapter I realized that I cannot find any description of Harry
doing just that, could somebody point me to it?
>
>
Nikkalmati

Yes, it is mentioned as he walks to the castle that they practiced in the rain
and NHN warns him he is dripping on the floor.

Alla:

Sorry for being unclear, let me try to clarify. Yes, I know that Nick warns him to be careful and that is what I said in the question, so there is no need to point me to Nick stating that guys :-).  It just felt weird to me that it was not described as something like "Harry was dripping mud around", you know? Same as Harry was walking one of the deserted corridors, I was expecting to see Harry was dripping mud around. I am just not sure why she let us know that he did that only from Nick's question and was wondering if I was missing something.






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 24 21:13:44 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:13:44 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hlvs7m+h7mn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm44q8+9mgm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188971



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" <lealess at ...> wrote:

> It is also canon that Voldemort took Lucius Malfoy's wand at the very beginning of DH because Voldemort's wand was ineffective against Potter, and when Malfoy's wand failed to defeat Potter, he took Selwyn's.  It is also canon that Voldemort had taken the wandmaker Ollivander prisoner to extract information from him.  

Pippin:
But Voldemort didn't *kill* Malfoy or Selwyn. He also knew that Grindelwald hadn't killed Gregorovich and Dumbledore hadn't killed Grindelwald. Nothing in that says, "Kill Snape!"
 

Voldemort *did* kill Grindelwald and Gregorovich, but not for their wands. They had to die because  it wouldn't do for anyone to know that Voldemort was seeking information about the Elder Wand. As Ron points out somewhere, it's not smart for the master of the wand to let anyone know that he has it. That's  reason enough for Snape to feign ignorance, no matter how much he knows or suspects. The Shrieking Shack was a classic Catch 22 situation: Snape would have to reveal knowledge of the wand to offer any alternate explanation of why it's not working, but if he does, Voldemort will kill him anyway.

But it hardly makes sense for Dumbledore to have planned that, not if he wants Snape alive to give a message to Harry. 

What did Dumbledore want Snape to do with the wand? 

I've had my theories  about that, but maybe for once, I just might have made things too complicated :)

Try this: what Snape was supposed to do with the wand is the same thing that Harry was supposed to do: not use it, and let Voldemort take it if he wants to. The elder wand, like the prophecy, is something that Voldemort supposes he needs to make him more powerful but won't actually help him. 

Consider this. Voldemort is already so powerful that the strongest spells and charms known to Dumbledore will not stop him. He can't be *more* invincible than he is already, never mind that in fact  the wand has been beaten many times.  

He already has allies and weapons so powerful that all out war against him is unthinkable -- giants, inferi and weres, oh my!  Giving Voldemort one more WMD isn't going to make the balance of power  more lopsided than it is already. 

I agree that anyone trying to keep the wand from Voldemort would be set up, but there's no canon that Snape was supposed to do that. Let Voldemort claim the wand, working or no, it won't make him any more dangerous than he is already.

Yes, it's canon that Voldemort enjoys killing and acts irrationally. But, as you said, sometimes he doesn't kill when it would be rational for him to do so. Killing Snape to make himself master of the wand is just the sort of irrational, paranoid notion Voldemort would come up with. But it's hardly the *only* irrational, paranoid notion possible. 

Snape and Dumbledore  couldn't possibly prepare against all the crazy ideas Voldemort might have about why the wand isn't working for him. 

Lealess:
> Maybe, maybe not.  The portrait might also have been sealed, never to be heard from again, or the office sealed.  As for Dumbledore's memories, how do we know the memories are still there, and were not hidden away or destroyed once Potter saw them?  It seems an ever-curious Snape might have looked at those memories if they were readily available, and yet, Snape doesn't seem to know something so basic as why Potter needs the Sword of Gryffindor.

Pippin:
Snape *chose* not to know why Potter needed the sword. If he had really wanted to know, or rather, if he had thought knowing was more important than cooperating with Dumbledore, he could have refused to obey until he was told, as he did in the forest. 

The portraits were empty because they were elsewhere in the castle. Dumbledore's portrait can visit anywhere it likes, and communicate with whom it pleases, including House Elves and ghosts who can leave the castle undetected, whether the office is sealed or not. Unless the castle itself is destroyed, it would be difficult to stop it from getting a message out. 

Lealess:
 He put a lot of faith in very few people, and kept information from all of them.

Pippin:
Yes, and he was like that as a boy,  long before he ever heard of the prophecy.  That was a function of his personality.


Lealess:
> Dumbledore's weeping over Harry's role shows to me that he accepts the Prophecy as determinative.  If the Prophecy was bunkum, he could have laughed it off and encouraged Potter to do the same.  Instead, he communicated that Potter must put himself in mortal danger because of the Prophecy; in other words, he lent credence to its words and helped to put them in action.

Pippin:
*Put himself in mortal danger* ???? As Harry realizes at the beginning of GoF, he's been in mortal danger since he was a baby -- because Voldemort wants to kill him. The prophecy explains *why* Voldemort wants to kill him. And that's no laughing matter. Harry's choices are limited by that fact. He can run, he can hide, he can ignore the danger, he can fight back. But the danger is real. 

Lealess:
> Just because someone comes from a tradition of duelling doesn't mean he will only ever bet on one champion, unless he has reason to believe there is only one champion.  That belief came from the Prophecy, before Dumbledore even knew Potter as a person.  Who else was Dumbledore protecting -- the Longbottoms?

Pippin:
Harry was told in OOP and finally recognizes towards the end that there didn't have to be only one champion. But it was  useful to Dumbledore for Voldemort to think there was. 

As long as Voldemort thinks there is only one champion  to stand between him and world domination, perhaps he will concentrate his energies on eliminating that champion, instead of, say, flattening Europe, or eliminating every Muggle alive, starting with those whom the Muggles themselves consider undesirable. Voldemort could have sent an army of Inferi marching through London -- instead he decided to hunt one little boy. Tough on  the Potter family -- but would they have been better off in the middle of World War Three?

> > Pippin:
> > There's a difference between being coerced into obedience and voluntarily agreeing to obey.
> 

Lealess: 
> In the end, Potter may have had a choice, but there is evidence for me to believe it was a highly-conditioned one.

Pippin:
::rolls eyes:: I don't think one could train even the most adoring, compliant spaniel to obey you by showing up once a year to deliver a treat and say how proud you are, still less one that had been kept in an abusive situation for ten years. And humans, in my experience, respond to training  less reliably than dogs. 

Pippin







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 25 00:31:15 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:31:15 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hm4a8e+mg14@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm4gcj+8rah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188973

OY, I missed the whole sentence and a word, so adding it. Sorry.

> Lealess:
> > In the end, Potter may have had a choice, but there is evidence for me to
believe it was a highly-conditioned one.
>
> Pippin:
> ::rolls eyes:: I don't think one could train even the most adoring, compliant
spaniel to obey you by showing up once a year to deliver a treat and say how
proud you are, still less one that had been kept in an abusive situation for ten
years. And humans, in my experience, respond to training less reliably than
dogs.


Alla:

But if you are consistently putting this spaniel (or human in our situation) in
the situations which require certain modes of behavior I think you can train him
pretty darn well.

You do not have to agree that the whole book 1 and Harry going to face Voldemort
was the training set up by Dumbledore, but I hope we agree that there is a canon
supported argument to be made for that, heck Harry himself says it very clear
that Dumbledore gave him a chance (paraphrasing). You do not have to agree with
Harry, but it is canon.

Dumbledore may have finally graced Harry with his conversational skills at the
end of the year in OOP, but he was the one who put Harry on the path he was in
OOP - occlumency lessons, avoiding him etc.

And of course in HBP Dumbledore meets with Harry so much more often than once a
year.


Trust me, hate Dumbledore as I am, I really really wanted to be convinced that
Harry chose on his own at the end, and of course there is a scene where he
decides that Dumbledore betrayed him and that his plan is a good one.


However I cannot ignore the evidence that lealess described. Even though I think
that Harry chose on his own at the end (there was nobody there to coerce him
after all) since he so clearly believes that Dumbledore betrayed him, I think
Dumbledore made sure to condition Harry to at least decrease the possibility
that he would chose differently.

As I said, because I like the character of Harry so much, I would MUCH prefer
that the choice would have been completely his own, but I just cannot buy so
anymore, and we  never hear Harry assert that he is his own man, only that he is
Dumbledore's man. I only hope that in the years between the fight with Voldemort
and epilogue he learned how to be his own man.

JMO,

Alla







From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 25 04:27:28 2010
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:27:28 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hm3nj8+sl52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm4u7g+a1h9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188974

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
 
> It just felt weird to me that it was not described as something 
> like "Harry was dripping mud around", you know? 


zanooda:

Right, the book doesn't state directly that "Harry was dripping mud", but it is mentioned at the beginning of the chapter that Harry was returning from the Quidditch pitch all "splattered with mud" (p.122). It is logical to assume that at least some of that mud got to the floors. Of course it is not a direct statement, but still, it can work :-).




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Feb 25 07:44:29 2010
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:44:29 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hm3nj8+sl52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm59ot+ub3e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188975

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

Alla:
> > 1. Nick warns Harry to be careful with dripping the mud around, but when I was
> rereading the chapter I realized that I cannot find any description of Harry
> doing just that, could somebody point me to it?

Nikkalmati: 
> Yes, it is mentioned as he walks to the castle that they practiced in the rain
> and NHN warns him he is dripping on the floor.
 
> Alla: 
> Sorry for being unclear, let me try to clarify. Yes, I know that Nick warns him to be careful and that is what I said in the question, so there is no need to point me to Nick stating that guys :-).  It just felt weird to me that it was not described as something like "Harry was dripping mud around", you know? Same as Harry was walking one of the deserted corridors, I was expecting to see Harry was dripping mud around. I am just not sure why she let us know that he did that only from Nick's question and was wondering if I was missing something.

Geoff:
I still don't see why you are apparently making a big issue out of this.

At the beginning of the chapter, we find Harry "late one stormy Saturday 
afternoon, a few days before Hallowe'en, returning to Gryffindor Tower,
drenched to the skin and splattered with mud'. We are told that it hadn't 
been a happy practice but more relevantly, the narrative tells us that "As
Harry squelched along the deserted corridor, he came across somebody 
who looked just as preoccupied as he was..."
(COS "The Deathday Party" p.92 UK edition)

It is therefore obvious that he must be leaving stuff on the floor. Here in 
Porlock, for the last few days, we have had a lot of rain which, added to the 
mess left by intermittent snow, means that when I walk my dog (and often 
my daughter's dog which is even worse), we come in very wet and muddy,
>From time to time, I get ticked off because I have let the dogs into the 
kitchen before I have dried them properly.

This is akin to Filch's reaction. But it has been pointed out that this really 
sets up the situation for Harry to discover that he is a Squib. All it needs 
is that (a) Harry is wet and squelching (b) he has come into the building 
without wiping his feet and (c) as my wife would probably tell me, being 
a typical male, he hadn't taken that on board.

 A bit of a storm in a teacup perhaps?





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Feb 25 16:12:05 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:12:05 -0000
Subject: Doing it for Lily? was Re: Snape and Harry and expulsion  LONG
In-Reply-To: <hm4gcj+8rah@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm67gl+u7u2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188976

 
> Alla:
> 
> But if you are consistently putting this spaniel (or human in our situation) in
> the situations which require certain modes of behavior I think you can train him
> pretty darn well.


Pippin:

Maybe we are not using "conditioning" in the same way. Conditioning is not about what is required. Conditioning is about what is reinforced -- positively with pleasurable things or negatively with aversive ones.

 "Behavioral conditioning" to use its full name, is a method of influencing behavior through  consistent and systematic reinforcement. I don't see that going on -- not as far as influencing Harry to become Dumbledore's man. Sometimes Harry gets rewarded for following Dumbledore's orders and sometimes he doesn't. 

Certainly Dumbledore is attempting to influence Harry in all sorts of ways. But when Harry sees Dumbledore at the second Quidditch match in PS/SS and immediately feels that everything is going to be all right, it's not because he's been conditioned to think so. He hasn't been rewarded for having those thoughts before. 

Harry's been *socialized* to think that Dumbledore is a great man -- he's spent most of his Hogwarts time around people who think so. But again, that's not conditioning. They didn't systematically reward him for agreeing with them. And they themselves haven't been conditioned -- no one is giving them brownie points for saying how great Dumbledore is.

 They believe it because Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, and because he was warning and organizing the WW against Voldemort back when many people thought LV was a great wizard. They trust DD's judgement, perhaps more than they should, but that's not conditioning either. That's laziness.

Harry wasn't conditioned to offer his life without a fight. No one ever gave him a reward for that.  And when you say that yes, Harry was aware that he was making that decision, that to me completely undermines the argument that he was conditioned, because conditioning is about reflexes. It's about decision-making at an unconscious level. If you're aware of making a choice, then, IMO, conditioning has failed. Or never existed.

Alla: 
> As I said, because I like the character of Harry so much, I would MUCH prefer
> that the choice would have been completely his own, but I just cannot buy so
> anymore, and we  never hear Harry assert that he is his own man, only that he is
> Dumbledore's man. I only hope that in the years between the fight with Voldemort
> and epilogue he learned how to be his own man.

Pippin:
I don't know what "Dumbledore's man" means to you. To me, it means accepting Dumbledore's leadership in the war against Voldemort, which Harry does on the basis of Dumbledore's greater knowledge and experience, as well as on his personal feelings for him.  

 It doesn't say anything about Harry not having confidence in his own judgement. In fact, I would say a lot of Dumbledore's training was aimed at persuading Harry that he could have confidence in his own judgement. 

Pippin






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 25 19:16:47 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 19:16:47 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hm59ot+ub3e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm6iav+raor@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188977


Geoff:
I still don't see why you are apparently making a big issue out of this.

At the beginning of the chapter, we find Harry "late one stormy Saturday
afternoon, a few days before Hallowe'en, returning to Gryffindor Tower,
drenched to the skin and splattered with mud'. We are told that it hadn't
been a happy practice but more relevantly, the narrative tells us that "As
Harry squelched along the deserted corridor, he came across somebody
who looked just as preoccupied as he was..."
(COS "The Deathday Party" p.92 UK edition)

It is therefore obvious that he must be leaving stuff on the floor.

<SNIP>


Alla:

Heh, I am not, I mean I am nitpicking, but only because it struck me as curiously wierd piece of writing and at this point the meta issues had been discussed so many times that sometimes I like to nitpick :-)


HOWEVER you and Zanooda finally solved my question, thank you, Harry "splattered with mud" is indeed what I missed :-) I feel better now.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 25 19:05:27 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 19:05:27 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as  Harry's shameless manipulator redux  WAS Doing it for Lily?
In-Reply-To: <hm67gl+u7u2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm6hln+daoe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188978

Pippin:

Maybe we are not using "conditioning" in the same way. Conditioning is not about
what is required. Conditioning is about what is reinforced -- positively with
pleasurable things or negatively with aversive ones.

"Behavioral conditioning" to use its full name, is a method of influencing
behavior through consistent and systematic reinforcement. I don't see that
going on -- not as far as influencing Harry to become Dumbledore's man.
Sometimes Harry gets rewarded for following Dumbledore's orders and sometimes he
doesn't.

Alla:
Oh then sure, you are right, I was using conditioning as a synonym to "training". I would agree that Dumbledore did not consistently and systematically rewarded Harry for showing the behavior Dumbledore wanted Harry to show.

In fact I would say that quite often Dumbledore made sure Harry suffered in order to train him. So yes, I will change "conditioned behavior" to "trained behavior" in my argument then. Or maybe I should not? Since I believe that Dumbledore provided plenty of negative reinforcements together with positive. Not sure, all I can say that I agree that Harry was not always rewarded, that's for sure.

Pippin:
Certainly Dumbledore is attempting to influence Harry in all sorts of ways.

Alla:

Yep, that is the gist of my argument, lol, so as far as I am concerned we agree about that.

Pippin:
But
when Harry sees Dumbledore at the second Quidditch match in PS/SS and
immediately feels that everything is going to be all right, it's not because
he's been conditioned to think so. He hasn't been rewarded for having those
thoughts before.

Alla:

But that is not crucial to me though, what is crucial to me is that I believe that Dumbledore way before Harry even came to school set him up to love WW by putting him in such horrible home and setting up a contrast between Dursleys and WW. Never mind that when Harry grows up he sees that there are plenty of horrors happening in WW, he is already in love with it. What is crucial to me is that I believe that Dumbledore set up the book 1 and did not even come right away when three eleven year olds could have died, well, Harry could have died, but what if all three of them went through.

Sure, Dumbledore does not always give Harry a cookie for thinking he is great, he makes sure that Harry thinks his actions are great. Dumbledore came to save Harry? Yay, he is so great, never mind that obstacles course was his idea anyway (IMO). Dumbledore helped Harry to fight Tommy in CoS? He is so amazing and as Lealess said Dumbledore does not forget to inform Harry that Fawkes came because Harry is loyal to Dumbledore. Oh dear, maybe Fawkes would have come to the help of pure hearted no matter if they are not personally loyal to Dumbledore?

Dumbledore helped Harry to save Sirius? YAY again, he is so great, never mind that he did nothing to help Sirius thirteen years ago and only now woke up. You get the gist.

Here comes OOP, thank goodness here Harry does not think Dumbledore is great anymore, what Dumbledore does though? In my opinion he makes sure to diminish Harry's pain, badmouths his dead godfather and supposedly tells Harry *everything*, only wait, he does not.

In fact he pretty much lies to Harry. Does it fall under definition of conditioning? I guess not from what you are describing, but as far as I am concerned it was pretty vicious training. How dare you are throwing temper tantrums at me if you are supposed to think of bigger picture?

And then we have HBP, and I am not sure how else it could be described but conditioning.



Pippin:
I don't know what "Dumbledore's man" means to you. To me, it means accepting
Dumbledore's leadership in the war against Voldemort, which Harry does on the
basis of Dumbledore's greater knowledge and experience, as well as on his
personal feelings for him.

Alla:
To me it is a shortcut that Harry is Dumbledore's faithful follower, I do not see how you can limit it, if Harry does not.

Pippin:
It doesn't say anything about Harry not having confidence in his own judgment.
In fact, I would say a lot of Dumbledore's training was aimed at persuading
Harry that he could have confidence in his own judgment.

Alla:

I am sure Harry has confidence in his own judgment to follow Dumbledore,  but can Harry make decisions that Dumbledore would NOT have wanted him to make?

I seriously doubt that, or at least I doubt it at the end of the book. Heck, even in Kings Cross Dumbledore would not let Harry be at peace, would he not? I know that there is an interpretation of Kings Cross that it only happens in Harry's head, but I think the interpretation that their souls are indeed meeting in some sort of Potterverse in between is valid too.

So, Harry IS tempted to go on, is he not? And what does Dumbledore say? Ooooo, you will save more souls, blah, blah.  I am convinced that this is again subtle influence of what Harry who is suffered so much supposed to do.

And just to contrast this episode, I will bring up the similar happening in "Herald Mage" trilogy by Mercedes Lackey. When close to the end of the third book Vanuel has the similar experience that he can rest or he can go back and finish evil mage, knowing that it will bring him more suffering and that it will not end happily for him, he goes back to finish evil mage anyway. Only there is no doubt there for me that Vanuel chooses on his own and nobody is whispering in his ear and validating his saving people thing as Dumbledore does here with Harry IMO.







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Feb 25 23:13:47 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:13:47 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux WAS: Doing it for Lily?
In-Reply-To: <hm6jqr+fm37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm707b+o8r8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188980


> Alla:
> 
> But that is not crucial to me though, what is crucial to me is that I believe that Dumbledore way before Harry even came to school set him up to love WW by putting him in such horrible home and setting up a contrast between Dursleys and WW. Never mind that when Harry grows up he sees that there are plenty of horrors happening in WW, he is already in love with it. 

Pippin:
Isn't it more likely that Harry would be  prone to anger and depression, and liable  to act out in unpredictable ways? In fact, isn't this what Harry *is* like? It's hardly the way to raise a reliable follower, IMO. 

Alla:
What is crucial to me is that I believe that Dumbledore set up the book 1 and did not even come right away when three eleven year olds could have died, well, Harry could have died, but what if all three of them went through.

Pippin:
Yes, that is one thing that I have never understood about this theory. If Dumbledore's supposed to have set it up, wouldn't he have had some way to tell when Harry was going to need rescuing? Take something he *did* plan -- moving Harry out of Privet Drive in OOP, for example, or giving evidence at Harry's trial,  and it's clear that timing is not  left to chance.

Alla:
  Oh dear, maybe Fawkes would have come to the help of pure hearted no matter if they are not personally loyal to Dumbledore?

Pippin:
::snort:: That's a new one. But you'll have to explain why Fawkes aided the not so pure Dumbledore in OOP, and why he didn't stick around to help pure-hearted  Harry after Dumbledore died. 

Alla:
> Dumbledore helped Harry to save Sirius? YAY again, he is so great, never mind that he did nothing to help Sirius thirteen years ago and only now woke up. You get the gist.

Pippin:
So, let me see, you  hate Dumbledore so much for betraying Harry that you will not believe that any of his explanations  are sincere, you believe he has done horrible things that aren't even mentioned in canon, and yet you can't understand how Dumbledore could feel so betrayed by Sirius that he wouldn't even think of helping him?
 
> Pippin:
> I don't know what "Dumbledore's man" means to you. To me, it means accepting
> Dumbledore's leadership in the war against Voldemort, which Harry does on the
> basis of Dumbledore's greater knowledge and experience, as well as on his
> personal feelings for him.
> 
> Alla:
> To me it is a shortcut that Harry is Dumbledore's faithful follower, I do not see how you can limit it, if Harry does not.

Pippin:
I limit it because Harry does. When does Harry seek Dumbledore's advice or follow his orders on anything but the war against Voldemort? When he has personal problems that he doesn't trust to Ron or Hermione, he takes them to Sirius.

> Alla:
> 
> So, Harry IS tempted to go on, is he not? And what does Dumbledore say? Ooooo, you will save more souls, blah, blah.  I am convinced that this is again subtle influence of what Harry who is suffered so much supposed to do.
> 

Pippin:
Are you saying that Harry wouldn't think it was a worthy goal to save souls if Dumbledore hadn't told him it was? That even though in King's Cross it is Dumbledore who is desperate for Harry's approval, Harry is somehow Dumbledore's slave and incapable of having an independent thought? 


Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 26 01:05:05 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 01:05:05 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG
In-Reply-To: <hm707b+o8r8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm76o1+1spk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188981






Pippin:
Isn't it more likely that Harry would be prone to anger and depression, and
liable to act out in unpredictable ways? In fact, isn't this what Harry *is*
like? It's hardly the way to raise a reliable follower, IMO.

Alla:

LOLOL. Yep, he certainly should be after the ten years he spent with Dursleys, however how many times exactly Harry acts out in the ways unpredictable to **Dumbledore**? Except his temper tantrum in OOP that is, seemed to me Dumbledore was able to predict Harry's acting  quite nicely.

In fact it seems to me it could be argued that limiting Harry's communication with his friends and Sirius and Remus after Triwizard tournament he made sure Harry's depression was fully blooming by the time OOP started. Yeah, I think it is another one of canon mentioned terrible things that Dumbledore did to Harry. Teenager, who witnessed the death of the classmate needs support of the loved ones, period. Apparently Dumbledore did not think so. 



Pippin: 
Yes, that is one thing that I have never understood about this theory. If
Dumbledore's supposed to have set it up, wouldn't he have had some way to tell
when Harry was going to need rescuing? Take something he *did* plan -- moving
Harry out of Privet Drive in OOP, for example, or giving evidence at Harry's
trial, and it's clear that timing is not left to chance.

Alla:

Um, he did save Harry just on time, didn't he? Birdie told him to be back surprisingly on time, at the very last minute, but on time nevertheless. And Harry is a bit hurt? Well, now he knows what Voldemort is capable of.

Alla:
Oh dear, maybe Fawkes would have come to the help of pure hearted no matter if
they are not personally loyal to Dumbledore?

Pippin:
::snort:: That's a new one. But you'll have to explain why Fawkes aided the not
so pure Dumbledore in OOP, and why he didn't stick around to help pure-hearted 
Harry after Dumbledore died.


Alla:

This was mostly speculation of course, however I cannot find Fantastic Beasts on my shelf, but don't they talk about phoenixes as aiding pure ? hearted? Regardless whether they do or do not, my point was that Dumbledore did not have to mention it, even if it is true IMO. He says that help would always be given in Hogwarts to those who ask for it, why not leave it at that, why stress personal loyalty?



Pippin:
So, let me see, you hate Dumbledore so much for betraying Harry that you will
not believe that any of his explanations are sincere, you believe he has done
horrible things that aren't even mentioned in canon, and yet you can't
understand how Dumbledore could feel so betrayed by Sirius that he wouldn't even
think of helping him?


Alla:
I am not sure what horrible things that are not mentioned in canon I mentioned so far. I surely have a very different interpretation than you of many things **mentioned** in canon definitely. Fawkes? And absolutely I totally understand how Dumbledore may have felt betrayed by Sirius actually, however this in my mind totally does not excuse what he did and moreover him saving Sirius does not deserve to be qualified as something great, just something which was due and owed long time ago. What I think he should have done if you ask me is to go all the way ? give evidence to the Ministry, make sure he explained that he Legilimenced Sirius and all that. No, I do not think Ministry would have put up that much of a fight, it felt to me that they agreed with Sirius' innocence really really fast after he was dead.

So my main point is that this is one in the long list of actions that Dumbledore presents to Harry as something Harry needs to respect him for.



Pippin:
I limit it because Harry does. When does Harry seek Dumbledore's advice or
follow his orders on anything but the war against Voldemort? When he has
personal problems that he doesn't trust to Ron or Hermione, he takes them to
Sirius.

Alla:

Eh, but war against Voldemort consumes Harry as a whole, personal problems are so insignificant for him.  And what personal problems does he take to Sirius? That his scar hurt after Hermione insists Harry writes to him? But that is connected to Voldemort as well. How Triwizard tournament was progressing? Same thing to me. I would never dispute that Harry loved Sirius dearly, but he never called himself Sirius' man lol. And believe me I would have never wanted him to do so. I think Harry and Sirius had a chance to have something really really good there, but I do not think this was in Dumbledore's plans for Harry.


Pippin:
Are you saying that Harry wouldn't think it was a worthy goal to save souls if
Dumbledore hadn't told him it was? That even though in King's Cross it is
Dumbledore who is desperate for Harry's approval, Harry is somehow Dumbledore's
slave and incapable of having an independent thought?

Alla:
I think you are mixing up issues here. Saving souls is a very worthy thing as far as I am concerned; free will as far as I am concerned is also a very worthy thing. And I cannot respect a leader who takes the free will away from his subjects, no matter how worthy such goal is. You mentioned the obligation to fight tyranny as the highest obligation as the books promote in one of your recent posts, right?  Well, see I think that people have a freedom to choose whether to do that or not. And yes, if this freedom to choose means that other people decide to stand against them, they chose to do so. People may want to follow tyrants for all different reasons. As Erlein from Tigana says they may do so because roads are safer while tyrants rule them than when good rulers did (paraphrasing).  Goodness knows I do not condone it, but neither can I condone what Dumbledore did to Harry in order to save WW.

Would have Harry went back if Dumbledore did not interfere again? Maybe, maybe not as far as I know. The fact he is he could not keep his mouth shut and let Harry make his own decision
 again. No, I do not think Harry is his slave and I never denied that "saving people thing" was also who Harry is. However, I do not know how much it is who Harry is, and how much of it is what Dumbledore forced Harry to be. I believe that Vanuel goes back to save people from evil because this is what he truly chose. After all he was having his conversation with Mr. Death himself; if I remember correctly, nobody who could really force him to make a choice. I wept for him, but I also respected his choice. I certainly cried for Harry, but I cannot buy that the choice was completely his own anymore. For that Dumbledore should have kept his mouth shut IMO.

This is NOT what I call an independent choice.

I am starting to type in the middle of the scene, just because too much to type, not because I want to omit anything, everybody knows where to check the wording after all.

"But you want me to go back?"
"I think," said Dumbledore, "that if you choose to return, there is a chance that he may be finished for good. I cannot promise it. But I know this, Harry, that you have less to fear from returning here than he does."
Harry glanced again at the raw-looking thing that trembled and choked in the shadow beneath the distant chair.
"Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and above all those who live without love. BY returning you may ensure that fewer souls are maimed, fewer families are torn apart. If that seems to you as a worthy goal, then we say goodbye for the present".

Harry nodded and signed. Leaving this place would not be nearly as hard as walking into the Forest had been, but it was warm and light and peaceful here, and he knew that he was heading back to pain and fear and more loss"

Alla:

When I reread it, it looked to me even less independent than what I remembered. Nowhere, not ONCE Harry says that he wants to go back. Sure, I believe that he could have wanted to do that, but he does not say that, does he?  He is asking **Dumbledore** again, what he wants him to do. 

Of course if it is happening in Harry's head, then it is more of Harry's choice, but then he is in coma and convincing himself what Dumbledore would have wanted him to do, but to be honest new facts that Dumbledore says always made me believe that it was souls' conversation for real in Potterverse' limbo. IMO of course.

I mean, Dumbledore is looking as a little boy desperate for Harry's approval when he wants Harry to forgive him for a wild goose chase with Hallows is he not? Dumbledore looks for Harry's approval in a very limited way IMO and does not even apologize for some things that he did, to me Harry is still looking up for his approval where it matters. "Do you want me to go back?" 


JMO,

Alla






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb 26 16:29:50 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:29:50 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG
In-Reply-To: <hm76o1+1spk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm8stu+qqtb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188982


> Alla:
 Teenager, who witnessed the death of the classmate needs support of the loved ones, period. Apparently Dumbledore did not think so. 

Pippin:
Dumbledore moves Harry to the safest place he know, as if he feared an imminent attack. Was that a realistic fear? 
 
Well, Harry didn't know it yet, and neither did we, but Voldemort already had hordes of Inferi  at his command. 

LV didn't *need* to recruit the Giants, or liberate his faithful from Azkaban, or  find out what the rest of the prophecy said. We know that Hogwarts' defenses would fall in a matter of hours, and that's the safest place in the world -- except for No 4 Privet Drive. I'll take the Dursleys over the zombie hordes, thank you very much. 

> Alla:
> 
> Um, he did save Harry just on time, didn't he? Birdie told him to be back surprisingly on time, at the very last minute, but on time nevertheless. And Harry is a bit hurt? Well, now he knows what Voldemort is capable of.

Pippin:
You can't have it both ways, Alla. Either Dumbledore knew everything that was going on and always could have rescued  the kids if they were in real trouble (that's what PS/SS Harry wants to believe), or Harry outwitted his protections (which even clever Snape did not figure out how to do) and went after the Stone long before Dumbledore intended. That is what Dumbledore claims in OOP and Harry never doubts.

> Alla:
 He says that help would always be given in Hogwarts to those who ask for it, why not leave it at that, why stress personal loyalty?

Pippin:
Because Harry might need Fawkes's help again sometime when he is not at Hogwarts?
 
> Alla: What I think he should have done if you ask me is to go all the way ? give evidence to the Ministry, make sure he explained that he Legilimenced Sirius and all that. No, I do not think Ministry would have put up that much of a fight, it felt to me that they agreed with Sirius' innocence really really fast after he was dead.

Pippin:
They agreed awfully fast once they were ready to admit that Voldemort was back. But they put up an awful fight about that. Meanwhile --proclaiming Sirius's innocence was just more evidence that Harry was delusional.

Alla:
> So my main point is that this is one in the long list of actions that Dumbledore presents to Harry as something Harry needs to respect him for.

Pippin:
See, that is one of the things that I don't find mentioned in canon. When does Dumbledore demand Harry's respect  for recognizing that Sirius was innocent? IIRC, he says it is Harry who has saved an innocent man from a terrible fate, and Harry's patronus that convinced him Sirius was telling the truth. 
 
> Alla:
> I think you are mixing up issues here. Saving souls is a very worthy thing as far as I am concerned; free will as far as I am concerned is also a very worthy thing. And I cannot respect a leader who takes the free will away from his subjects, no matter how worthy such goal is. 

Pippin:
Whoa! Harry at King's Cross is a pure, undamaged soul, one and the same with his mind. How can he not have free will? Even Voldemort's soul, or what's left of it, has free will. He is as he as chosen to be, and no one has the power to save him from himself any more.

He has chosen independence, and look what it got him. 


> Alla:
> 
> When I reread it, it looked to me even less independent than what I remembered. Nowhere, not ONCE Harry says that he wants to go back. Sure, I believe that he could have wanted to do that, but he does not say that, does he?  He is asking **Dumbledore** again, what he wants him to do. 

Pippin:
Harry wouldn't be asking at all if he weren't conflicted. It is like Catlady said, "want" is a difficult word. Catlady wants to stay in her warm comfy bed, but good Catlady gets up and feeds her cats, because, among other things, staying in her bed indefinitely is  not a viable option anyway. Harry wants to stay where it is warm and light and peaceful -- but that's not really an option either. The train is going to come and then it's off to the next great adventure, whatever that might be.

Pippin







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Feb 26 16:22:04 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:22:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm8sfc+iusb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188983


 
> 
> Alla
>
> 2.	What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking Kwikspell course?

Potioncat: I thought he was a wizard of very little skill and was trying to improve. I almost feel sorry for him now?or I would if he were a nicer person. I think Mrs. Figg took the better path in life. 

> 3.	 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any definite dates in the book?

Potioncat: I don't mind her placing the story in a specific time, I just wish her math had been better. Not that I would have caught all the errors myself
OK I would only caught a few. All right, maybe I would never have noticed on my own.

> 
> 4.	Would you like to go to Deathday party?

Potioncat: Under the circumstances the Trio found themselves in?yes. But I wouldn't want to go. The whole idea of ghosts bothers me. It's a horrible thought that your sould would not on to the Hereafter. But I'm not sure if ghosts are souls that did not go on as Nick says, or if they are imprints of souls as Snape says. Snape's version makes them more like portraits.
> 
> 5.	Obviously we know now that Draco was not Slytherin Heir, but what do you think was the reason for him saying that?

Potioncat: He was clearly placing himself in support of it. I think it's odd the teachers didn't react more to the words on the wall and Draco's cheering of it but spent so time just on the cat's injury.
> 
> 6.	Ginny is pale at the beginning of the chapter and Percy bullies her into taking the medicine. We find out later about the diary and Tom, but at this point, we don't know. Did Percy seem out of character in "bullying" her?

Potioncat: Hmmm, I think the word intended more "bossing" but "bullying" always hits buttons on this site. Cough!jamesorsnape!cough. I don't think it was out of character,  Percy liked being in charge. I do think he was acting in Ginny's best interest.
> 
> 7.	Filch is a Squib as we know now and he is expected to clean up the messes that magical kids make all the time. Do you think it is too much to expect of him?

Potioncat: This has always puzzled me. With all the magical spells that clean things up with a simple wave of the wand, why have this poor old guy scrubbing at frog brains on the ceiling or mud along the hallways? Someone else suggested House elves do most of the work, but I think they cook and only clean the dorms. (And would you want Filch cleaning your dorm?) 

My apologies if this is posted twice, it hasn't shown up yet, so I'm re-posting
> 





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Feb 26 15:51:22 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:51:22 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm8qlq+5ki2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188984


 
> Alla
>
> 2.	What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking Kwikspell course?

Potioncat: I thought he was a wizard of very little skill and was trying to improve. I almost feel sorry for him now?or I would if he were a nicer person. I think Mrs. Figg took the better path in life. 


> 3.	 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any definite dates in the book?

Potioncat: I don't mind her placing the story in a specific time, I just wish her math had been better. Not that I would have caught all the errors myself
OK I would only caught a few. All right, maybe I would never have noticed on my own.

> 
> 4.	Would you like to go to Deathday party?

Potioncat: Under the circumstances the Trio found themselves in?yes. But I wouldn't want to go. 

The whole idea of ghosts bothers me. I'm not sure if they are the spirits of those who didn't go on, as Nick says, or if they are imprints, as Snape says, which would make them something like the portraits. The idea of missing the Hereafter is an uncomfortable idea.


> 
> 5.	Obviously we know now that Draco was not Slytherin Heir, but what do you think was the reason for him saying that?

Potioncat: He was clearly placing himself in support of it. I think it's odd the teachers didn't react more to the words on the wall and Draco's cheering of it but spent so time just on the cat's injury.

> 
> 6.	Ginny is pale at the beginning of the chapter and Percy bullies her into taking the medicine. We find out later about the diary and Tom, but at this point, we don't know. Did Percy seem out of character in "bullying" her?

Potioncat: Hmmm, I think the word intended more "bossing" but "bullying" always hits buttons on this site. Cough!jamesorsnape!cough. I don't think it was out of character,  Percy liked being in charge. I do think he was acting in Ginny's best interest.

> 
> 7.	Filch is a Squib as we know now and he is expected to clean up the messes that magical kids make all the time. Do you think it is too much to expect of him?

Potioncat: This has always puzzled me. With all the magical spells that clean things up with a simple wave of the wand, why have this poor old guy scrubbing at frog brains on the ceiling or mud along the hallways? Someone else suggested House elves do most of the work, but I think they cook and only clean the dorms. (And would you want Filch cleaning your dorm?) 

Great questions, Alla!




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 26 17:30:15 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:30:15 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG
In-Reply-To: <hm8stu+qqtb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm90f7+77i2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188985



Alla:
Teenager, who witnessed the death of the classmate needs support of the loved
ones, period. Apparently Dumbledore did not think so.

Pippin:
Dumbledore moves Harry to the safest place he know, as if he feared an imminent
attack. Was that a realistic fear?

Well, Harry didn't know it yet, and neither did we, but Voldemort already had
hordes of Inferi at his command.

<SNIP> I'll take the Dursleys over the zombie hordes,
thank you very much.


Alla:

Huh? As you know I have plenty of issues with Harry living with Dursleys, but this was not my point at all here. Dumbledore does not ALLOW Harry's friends to contact him in the meaningful way over the summer and no, I do not think visit or letter from Ron and Hermione telling Harry what is really going on would have provoked an attack from Voldemort, sorry I find it funny as in extremely implausible way. I will take visits and meaningful letters from his friends over his nightmares and depression, thank you very much. 



Alla:
>
> Um, he did save Harry just on time, didn't he? Birdie told him to be back
surprisingly on time, at the very last minute, but on time nevertheless. And
Harry is a bit hurt? Well, now he knows what Voldemort is capable of.

Pippin:
You can't have it both ways, Alla. Either Dumbledore knew everything that was
going on and always could have rescued the kids if they were in real trouble
(that's what PS/SS Harry wants to believe), or Harry outwitted his protections
(which even clever Snape did not figure out how to do) and went after the Stone
long before Dumbledore intended. That is what Dumbledore claims in OOP and Harry
never doubts.

Alla:

I am not trying to have it both ways Pippin, sorry for being unclear. Yes I believe that Dumbledore knew everything that was going on in PS/SS and always could have rescued the kids if they were in real trouble. I just think Dumbledore and PS/SS Harry have a bit different definition of what "real trouble" was.

Alla:
> So my main point is that this is one in the long list of actions that
Dumbledore presents to Harry as something Harry needs to respect him for.

Pippin:
See, that is one of the things that I don't find mentioned in canon. When does
Dumbledore demand Harry's respect for recognizing that Sirius was innocent?
IIRC, he says it is Harry who has saved an innocent man from a terrible fate,
and Harry's patronus that convinced him Sirius was telling the truth.

Alla:

Ah I see I had been unclear again. Ok, no Dumbledore does not come out and say it, you are right, but I just do not see how it could be any other way, how such action will not make Harry idolize and respect him. What I am trying to say is that Dumbledore does not tell Harry the truth beyond his actions, and thus his actions appear to Harry to be the actions of great nobility, while to me they are the actions of manipulative amoral bastard.

> Alla:
> I think you are mixing up issues here. Saving souls is a very worthy thing as
far as I am concerned; free will as far as I am concerned is also a very worthy
thing. And I cannot respect a leader who takes the free will away from his
subjects, no matter how worthy such goal is.

Pippin:
Whoa! Harry at King's Cross is a pure, undamaged soul, one and the same with his
mind. How can he not have free will? Even Voldemort's soul, or what's left of
it, has free will. He is as he as chosen to be, and no one has the power to save
him from himself any more.

He has chosen independence, and look what it got him.

Alla:

Who has chosen independence? You mean Harry or Voldemort? I do not know how Harry can NOT have free will here, I explained in my previous post why I am not seeing much canonical evidence that he does.

Alla:
>
> When I reread it, it looked to me even less independent than what I
remembered. Nowhere, not ONCE Harry says that he wants to go back. Sure, I
believe that he could have wanted to do that, but he does not say that, does he?
He is asking **Dumbledore** again, what he wants him to do.

Pippin:
Harry wouldn't be asking at all if he weren't conflicted. It is like Catlady
said, "want" is a difficult word. Catlady wants to stay in her warm comfy bed,
but good Catlady gets up and feeds her cats, because, among other things,
staying in her bed indefinitely is not a viable option anyway. Harry wants to
stay where it is warm and light and peaceful -- but that's not really an option
either. The train is going to come and then it's off to the next great
adventure, whatever that might be.

Alla:

My point was that Harry is not making this decision completely on his own and I do not see how what you wrote is rebutting it. How is it not really an option I wonder? You mean that Harry KNOWS that he has to choose pain and suffering and self sacrifice all over again? Maybe he does, but again, I am not seeing how to "go on" is not really a viable option if that's what Harry truly wants or at least tempted to choose. Dumbledore after all is describing this option ? take a train and you will go on. But instead of say something like, I cannot make this decision for you Harry, it should be your choice and your choice only, Dumbledore is exerting his influence all over again here and I am so disgusted that even in other world he won't let Harry rest in peace. Of course Harry is conflicted, but would he have made the same decision without Dumbledore's voice? I am not so sure anymore.

It pains me to write this Pippin, seriously it does. I indeed hate Dumbledore with passion as you know, but it saddens me to realize how even the biggest choice of Harry's life was so influenced by the bastard. I will always like Harry's character for great qualities I think he has, but I now also realize that he is probably one of the most dependent Chosen ones I have ever read about. It does not diminish his bravery and sacrifice in my mind, but it does diminish his free will a great deal. Every Chosen one, you name it at the end makes a decision which makes him a better stronger man than his mentor was. Here Harry still makes a decision which Dumbledore's hand at least partially forced him to do IMO

This is the topic where I am so so eager to be convinced otherwise, you cannot imagine how happy I was when I read that scene in DH when Harry decides that Dumbledore's plan is a good one, but eventually I realized that I cannot call it truly independent choice and all that comes out of it either.

JMO,

Alla







From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Fri Feb 26 20:25:08 2010
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:25:08 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
References: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B85BAC4AB1C84D3AB99D30291C149CFE@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 188986

>2. What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking 
>Kwikspell course?

At first, it was just the sort of humor that Rowlings stuck in the books. I 
found the scene very funny. Then, I feel a little guilty that Harry is 
snooping in someone's private mail- but realize that Harry is still new to 
the WW, and there is so much to learn, that I feel almost that I would have 
done the same thing, taken that same chance to learn something new about 
this world that I didn't know so much about.

About Filch himself, after a while we are made to feel for him. He has a 
job, yes, but it's a mere janitor's job that an ordinary Muggle would have, 
and in the WW, that position would be even lower-than-dirt than it would be 
in the Muggle world.


> 3. 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an 
> only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated 
> the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise 
> decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let 
> the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any 
> definite dates in the book?

Personally, I think any author who wants to add dates to his/her work damn 
well better take the effort to make sure all those dates line up. Rowling 
failed miserably in this regard, and so I see it as a grave mistake that she 
added a date at all.


> 4. Would you like to go to Deathday party?
Eww, no. But, curousity being what it was, I probably would have went 
anyway. The ghosts do serve important roles in the castle, and a chance to 
learn information that you can't get elsewhere. I probably would have had a 
hard time deciding- saying yes if it didn't interfere with anything 
important, saying no if it conflicted with another event.


> 5. Obviously we know now that Draco was not Slytherin Heir, but what do 
> you think was the reason for him saying that?

I think this is to show the sick leanings of his father, former Death Eater. 
I think Draco knows he's not the one, but is excited at the prospect of 
watching others die or that harm might come to them. It shows his immaturity 
and slanted upbringings, this snot nosed boy who thinks he knows everything 
about life. I think it is provided to show a contrast later on when he 
starts seeing that death and harm from up close, being made to do it, and 
comes the realization of what it all means in "real life".

posting another's reaction so I can add to it:
> Potioncat: He was clearly placing himself in support of it. I think it's 
> odd the teachers didn't react more to the words on the wall and Draco's 
> cheering of it but spent so time just on the cat's injury.

I think the teacher's reacting to the cat was VERY important- it shows that 
someone can survive the attack, and makes people (Harry) think of a way that 
it can be done. It's an important clue later on that will save his life. 
It's very important that the teachers realize that the key to restoring the 
cat will be the key to restoring any student who happens to meet the same 
fate. I also sure the teachers are very aware of Draco's father and what he 
stood for, and since Mr. Malfoy is a member of the board, they pick their 
battles with him very carefully. Thus, overlooking the comments of Mr. 
Malfoy's brat of a son is to their advantage.


>6. Ginny is pale at the beginning of the chapter and Percy bullies her into 
>taking the medicine. We find out later about the diary and Tom, but at this 
>point, we don't know. Did Percy seem out of character in "bullying" her?

No, I think the Weasley kids are all forceful and outgoing- I don't think 
for a moment that any of them aren't used to speaking up and getting their 
way. Percy really believes that he's doing the best for his little sister, 
and he probably didn't see it as bullying at all. He thinks he's helping her 
as the wiser and older brother protecting the youngest, and that's all there 
is to it.


>7. Filch is a Squib as we know now and he is expected to clean up the 
>messes that magical kids make all the time. Do you think it is too much to 
>expect of him?

This can be taken two ways- torture that he has no magical talent and yet 
forced to do it all manually, or grateful that Dumbledore recognized that he 
can be trusted to work in a magical environment anyway in such an important 
role. In a world where he has "literally no use" to most Wizards and 
Witches, he has a job, a very important job, at that. Frankly, I too would 
hide the fact that I was a Squib, but I would go about my role being 
grateful that I had a job at all. I think the fact he's grouchy all the time 
shows how much abuse he takes from kids whom I am sure he sees as making his 
life harder "on purpose" because of his abnormality, rather than seeing 
those kids as just kids who would have made a mess anyway from having been 
out practicing in muddy conditions or travelling from building to building 
in the mud.

What really surprises me is that there isn't a magical canopy put over the 
walking trails if it's raining so hard and the paths are so muddy that it's 
a constant problem. 'Course, that's probably me just thinking like a Muggle, 
since most of those young Wizards and Witches would have quickly learned 
cleaning spells that would be able to siphon off all the mud and dry off the 
clothes. Handy spells, and a handy time to learn them and pass them on to 
other students. I am sure the news of how to do those spells spread like 
wildfire among the student population as they all face the ongoing rainy and 
muddy conditions. What's more surprising later on is that Harry never 
learned these spells to clean the blood off his clothes when Draco steps on 
his face to give him a bloody nose when Harry snoops on Draco on the 
Hogwarts Express.

Shelley 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb 26 20:39:48 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:39:48 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG
In-Reply-To: <hm90f7+77i2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm9bik+junp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188987


> Alla:
> 
> Huh? As you know I have plenty of issues with Harry living with Dursleys, but this was not my point at all here. Dumbledore does not ALLOW Harry's friends to contact him in the meaningful way over the summer and no, I do not think visit or letter from Ron and Hermione telling Harry what is really going on would have provoked an attack from Voldemort, sorry I find it funny as in extremely implausible way. I will take visits and meaningful letters from his friends over his nightmares and depression, thank you very much. 

Pippin:
Sorry I misunderstood you. I was  explaining why Dumbledore might think Harry couldn't be taken to his friends at Grimmauld Place until it was fully secure. 

The nightmares and depression do not end when Harry has contact with his friends. He's not depressed because he can't see them. He is  angry because his friends won't tell him what Voldemort is doing. He's desperate to help the Order, but he doesn't care that it's not a good idea to put information that Voldemort wants kept secret in an owl post than anyone might read. Not very healthy for the spies who have gathered it -- or the owl for that matter. 
 

> Alla:
. But instead of say something like, I cannot make this decision for you Harry, it should be your choice and your choice only, Dumbledore is exerting his influence all over again here and I am so disgusted that even in other world he won't let Harry rest in peace.

Pippin:

"I've got to go back, haven't I?"
"That is up to you."
"I've got a choice?"
"Oh yes"
 

It is  Harry's choice to ask Dumbledore whether he wants Harry to go back.  Dumbledore does not answer the question. He only says that if Harry goes back, he thinks there is a chance that Harry can finish Voldemort for good, save more souls from being maimed and more families from being torn apart. That is not going to be persuasive unless those are things that Harry  thinks are worthy. 

I just do not see any hint here that Harry only thinks they are important so Dumbledore will approve of him. 

Alla:
 I will always like Harry's character for great qualities I think he has, but I now also realize that he is probably one of the most dependent Chosen ones I have ever read about. It does not diminish his bravery and sacrifice in my mind, but it does diminish his free will a great deal. Every Chosen one, you name it at the end makes a decision which makes him a better stronger man than his mentor was. Here Harry still makes a decision which Dumbledore's hand at least partially forced him to do IMO

Pippin:

 I do not think JKR sees anything wrong with Harry needing wisdom, experience and knowledge from others. The alternative would be for Harry to think he always knows best. That's dangerously macho -- a usual Gryffindor fault, one of Dumbledore's worst,  and I for one am glad to see Harry get over it.  

 To me she is saying that  if we were not willing to be dependent at all, we would end up like the Voldemort soul, who had so little use for other people that he completely destroyed his ability to connect with them. 

Pippin






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb 26 20:56:53 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:56:53 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm9cil+c2ri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188988


> 2.	What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking Kwikspell course?

Pippin:
I thought it was  a funny parody of those ads in the back of magazines (Learn the piano instantly!) -- it didn't occur to me that Filch was magically impaired. 
> 
> 
> 3.	 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any definite dates in the book?

Pippin:
Since Grindelwald's defeat in 1945 is no coincidence, and important if we are to understand what would have happened if Voldemort hadn't been stopped, I think the dates are necessary. I wish JKR would have let someone help her with the math, since it bothers some people so much and she doesn't seem too concerned about getting them exact. But Tolkien obsessed over dates and still got them inconsistent. 

> 
> 4.	Would you like to go to Deathday party?

Pippin:
Whose? :) Too bad Harry's not interested in history. 

> 
> 5.	Obviously we know now that Draco was not Slytherin Heir, but what do you think was the reason for him saying that?

Pippin:
Draco likes being the center of attention. I don't think he thought anyone was going to suppose *he's* the heir of Slytherin. After all his ancestry is well-known. 

> 6.	Ginny is pale at the beginning of the chapter and Percy bullies her into taking the medicine. We find out later about the diary and Tom, but at this point, we don't know. Did Percy seem out of character in "bullying" her?

Pippin:
He's always bossy. But the practice of medicine is outside his authority and that qualifies it as bullying.  

> 
> 7.	Filch is a Squib as we know now and he is expected to clean up the messes that magical kids make all the time. Do you think it is too much to expect of him?
> 

Pippin:
He's able to use Magical Mess Remover. It would certainly be too much to expect him to clean up the whole castle, but apparently he's only responsible for emergency clean ups in the corridors and classrooms, maybe during the day when the Elves are busy with their cooking. The rest of the time he seems to spend patrolling for students out of bounds and contraband. 

Pippin





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 26 23:37:06 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:37:06 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG
In-Reply-To: <hm9bik+junp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hm9lv2+o2pn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188989

Pippin:
<SNIP>

"I've got to go back, haven't I?"
"That is up to you."
"I've got a choice?"
"Oh yes"


It is Harry's choice to ask Dumbledore whether he wants Harry to go back. 

Alla:

But of course it is Harry's choice, it is just same as Harry's choosing to go into Forest, I think relying on Dumbledore is what Harry was trained to do.

Pippin:
Dumbledore does not answer the question. He only says that if Harry goes back,
he thinks there is a chance that Harry can finish Voldemort for good, save more
souls from being maimed and more families from being torn apart. That is not
going to be persuasive unless those are things that Harry thinks are worthy.

Alla:

Maybe, but for me to be completely convinced Dumbledore did not need to say this little tirade at all.

Pippin:
I just do not see any hint here that Harry only thinks they are important so
Dumbledore will approve of him.

Alla:

We have to agree to disagree. As I said, I do believe that Harry thinks that those things are important, I am just not sure anymore how much of it is the result of Dumbledore drilling it into him and I am not sure what Harry would have chosen WITHOUT Dumbledore here. If he would not have sought Dumbledore's approval here, IMO he would not have asked Dumbledore at all. And he is not even asking as if he would have asked the comrade, the equal, for all Dumbledore supposedly wanting Harry's approval. It is not "What would you have done?", it is not "what is your opinion"?" It is **Do you want me to go back**?


Pippin:

I do not think JKR sees anything wrong with Harry needing wisdom, experience
and knowledge from others. The alternative would be for Harry to think he always
knows best. That's dangerously macho -- a usual Gryffindor fault, one of
Dumbledore's worst, and I for one am glad to see Harry get over it.

To me she is saying that if we were not willing to be dependent at all, we
would end up like the Voldemort soul, who had so little use for other people
that he completely destroyed his ability to connect with them.


Alla:

And to me there is world of difference between needing wisdom, experience and knowledge of others and being trained to have certain frame of mind for most of your young life, between what Dumbledore did to Harry. I certainly agree there is nothing wrong with connecting with people and having friends and family to rely upon, but Chosen one still has to show independent thinking at the end.  Percy Jackson certainly does not show any desire to toss aside his human mom at the end of the Rick Riordan's series, does he? But I would never doubt that he became a man in book five and he is few years younger than Harry. Well, I think Rick Riordan did another amazing thing as I am sure I said before, he did a real twist with the Prophecy, something that IMO JKR did not do either. Will from Dark is Rising does not show any desire to toss aside his human family, does he not? In fact I am left with the feel that he would cherish and treasure them and listen to their opinions in the human part of his life, despite the fact that he would have to eventually some day stand alone to guard the task which is given to him. Chosen from Tomas Sniegovski's "Fallen" series IS left with very much alive (sort of) father at the end of the series to work together at the task they have left. I can give so many more examples of that. But all of these guys are coming of age at the end of the series. They are achieving something what their elders, mentors, etc for various reasons were unable to achieve and younger generation did better in a sense. I do not want Harry to stand alone without help of the wisdom of his elders, but in the genre JKR is working with, coming of age, triumph should be shown in some way. As she said it herself ? wise man always dies, etc, etc, etc. And in this genre Chosen **has to** come out of age, thus at least on the symbolic level I needed Harry to make a  decision in complete independence from Dumbledore. Sadly poor guy could not achieve it even when Dumbledore is not there IMO. I know, Harry agreeing to obey Dumbledore is what you are counting as Harry's coming of age, but to me it is not adequate enough.

I just had a thought. Maybe Harry naming his son after Snape is what I should truly count as coming of age, at least it seems to be truly independent from everybody lol.

JMO,

Alla







From kckriger at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 26 11:09:18 2010
From: kckriger at yahoo.com (ken krieger)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 03:09:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG
In-Reply-To: <hm76o1+1spk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <631284.82274.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188990

Pippin:
Are you saying that Harry wouldn't think it was a worthy
goal to save souls if Dumbledore hadn't told him it was?
That even though in King's Cross it is Dumbledore who is
desperate for Harry's approval, Harry is somehow
Dumbledore's slave and incapable of having an independent
thought?

Alla:
I think you are mixing up issues here. Saving souls is a
very worthy thing as far as I am concerned; free will as
far as I am concerned is also a very worthy thing. And I
cannot respect a leader who takes the free will away from
his subjects, no matter how worthy such goal is. <snip>

Would have Harry went back if Dumbledore did not interfere
again? Maybe, maybe not as far as I know. The fact he is
he could not keep his mouth shut and let Harry make his
own decision again. <snip>

When I reread it, it looked to me even less independent
than what I remembered.  Nowhere, not ONCE Harry says
that he wants to go back. Sure, I believe that he could
have wanted to do that, but he does not say that, does
he?  He is asking **Dumbledore** again, what he wants
him to do. <snip>

I mean, Dumbledore is looking as a little boy desperate
for Harry's approval when he wants Harry to forgive him
for a wild goose chase with Hallows is he not? Dumbledore
looks for Harry's approval in a very limited way IMO and
does not even apologize for some things that he did, to
me Harry is still looking up for his approval where it
matters. "Do you want me to go back?"


Ken:
Hi

To me Dumbledore is a seer, he knows many things that he
didn't see fit to tell Harry. So often I think Harry had
a right to know, but we don't know if Harry would have
followed through with everything that he needed to do if
he had known. We know that Harry had to die to part his
own soul from the part of Voldemort's soul; do you think
that it would have been right for Dumbledore to have told
Harry that? I don't, Harry had too many thing he had to do
first. Harry had to find and destroy all of the Horcruxes
first, I think Dumbledore knew what Harry could handle at
a given time, and chose not to overload his mind.

I also think that Dumbledore also knew that Harry would
reject the power of the deathly hallows.

Yours, Ken






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Feb 27 16:35:13 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:35:13 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hm9lv2+o2pn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmbhk1+606c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188991

 
> Alla:
> They are achieving something what their elders, mentors, etc for various reasons were unable to achieve and younger generation did better in a sense. 

Pippin:
If Dumbledore is such a rotter as you think, then Harry could surpass him by turning over in his sleep. Not much drama in that, is there?

Alla:
 And in this genre Chosen **has to** come out of age, thus at least on the symbolic level I needed Harry to make a  decision in complete independence from Dumbledore. Sadly poor guy could not achieve it even when Dumbledore is not there IMO. I know, Harry agreeing to obey Dumbledore is what you are counting as Harry's coming of age, but to me it is not adequate enough.

Pippin:
Okay, I  think I get it. You were waiting for the "I can't kill my own father" moment when Luke realizes his mentors' moral judgement is flawed and trusts his own higher self to help him deal with Vader. Is that it?

But JKR said all along she wasn't writing "Star Wars." Harry has a higher power, a mental image of the epitome of goodness, but it  was created in Dumbledore's image, and it has  flaws, just as the real Dumbledore did.  Harry can't tell whether he's consulting the real Dumbledore or his mental image of him, but  it doesn't matter, because finally and after much angst about who this man really was, they are reconciled. Harry can trust Dumbledore even though Dumbledore isn't always right because he knows and accepts what Dumbledore's limits are. 

So Harry  *is* asking his highest self what he should do -- but with the twist that he knows his highest self isn't always going to be right. How does he know it's right at King's Cross? Because it's pointing towards the more difficult choice. 

JKR is saying that in the end, no matter whom we take as our epitome of goodness,  it's going to be flawed and it can  lead us astray. That doesn't mean there's no good and evil. It just means they're not as easy to tell apart as the innocent believe. Our concept of the greater good is shaped by our upbringing and we're kidding ourselves if we think we've achieved complete independence from it.  And when we expect other people to do it, we're expecting a lot too much. 

There's little point in grieving  endlessly about the moral decisions we made and feel bad about. It's the ones we *don't* feel bad about that should trouble us.    Especially the ones that should be fraught and are easy.

How do we know it was wrong for Harry to use the Unforgivable Curses even though he never expresses any regret? Because it was *easy*. 

Alla:
> I just had a thought. Maybe Harry naming his son after Snape is what I should truly count as coming of age, at least it seems to be truly independent from everybody lol.

Pippin:
I like that. But since Dumbledore's big flaw is that he's manipulative, then for Harry to surpass him we need a moment when Harry could be manipulative and isn't. 

 It would have been so easy for Harry to pressure Al into agreeing that being in Slytherin wouldn't make any difference,  and some of us were annoyed that he didn't. Does that mean Harry doesn't really think that Slytherin would be just as good? Or does it mean that, unlike Dumbledore,  Harry shows respect for Al's choices even when he doesn't think they're wise?

Pippin




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 27 16:32:31 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:32:31 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hm9cil+c2ri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmbhev+9lj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188992

> > 6.	Ginny is pale at the beginning of the chapter and Percy bullies her into taking the medicine. We find out later about the diary and Tom, but at this point, we don't know. Did Percy seem out of character in "bullying" her?
> 
> Pippin responded:
> He's always bossy. But the practice of medicine is outside his authority and that qualifies it as bullying.  
> 

Carol responds:
I disagree completely. In order to take the Pepper-Up Potion, Ginny would have to go see Madam Pomfrey, who would determine whether it was necessary. It's not as if he brewed it on his own and forced her to take it. It seems to me that he's taking on the role of his mother, who no doubt kept Pepper-Up Potion on hand for just such an occasion.

But I think that everyone is missing the point here. Harry's attention (and consequently the narrator's) is on the "bullying" big brother, not on the pale little sister. JKR is planting a clue that something is up with Ginny, but she distracts the reader by focusing on Percy. Harry is always missing important details, such as the broken Vanishing Cabinet that he notices but doesn't think about as he goes to hide his Potions book in HBP or the "little girl" holding the scales in front of what he ought to realize is the RoR. It's another variation on the "Harry filter." Percy is only a "bully" from Harry's perspective. He's trying to help his sister, not hurt her. I think we should appreciate him for watching over his little sister. He's the only one who notices that something is wrong with her, even if he does take the wrong approach. (Too bad she doesn't have an older sister to confide in!)

But Percy is also something very like a red herring, taking attention away from the clue that JKR is dropping. No one wonders what's up with Ginny. All they notice is that Percy is "bullying" Ginny. 

Carol, who may answer the other questions later but particularly wanted to respond to this one




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 27 17:02:10 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:02:10 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as shameless manipulator redux LONG
In-Reply-To: <hm9lv2+o2pn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmbj6i+vopr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188993



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> Pippin:
> <SNIP>
> 
> "I've got to go back, haven't I?"
> "That is up to you."
> "I've got a choice?"
> "Oh yes"
> 
> 
> It is Harry's choice to ask Dumbledore whether he wants Harry to go back. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> But of course it is Harry's choice, it is just same as Harry's choosing to go into Forest, I think relying on Dumbledore is what Harry was trained to do.

Carol notes:

But Harry doesn't ask, "Do you want me to go back, sir?" He asks whether he *has* to go back, to which Dumbledore (in true Wizard style) says neither yes nor no. He says that it's up to Harry, who makes sure that he understands that he has a choice, to which DD emphatically responds "yes."

Does he have to go back? No, he doesn't. It's his choice. And that choice is either to stay where it's calm and light and wait for the next great adventure, taking himself out of the action, letting others die and suffer the loss of loved ones (and risking really dying this time, which he now knows wouldn't be all that terrible), or going back and doing something to help others. And we know that Harry always chooses action.

He could stay behind with Dumbledore if he wanted to, but he's not really tempted. He'd rather do what his instinct tells him to do and what, I agree, Dumbledore has trained him to do.

On a side note, imagine what Harry's life would have been like if DD had not allowed him to *choose* to go after the Sorcerer's Stone or *choose* to enter the Chamber of Secrets or *choose* to save Sirius (and Buckbeak) or enter the TWT (admittedly, not a choice though DD could probably have pulled strings to withdraw Harry) or *choose* to go with him to obtain the supposed Horcrux in the cave (in which case DD would have died horribly like poor Regulus Black). All of those experiences, risky and dangerous as they were, prepared Harry for what he had to do, teaching him certain kinds of magic and sometimes giving him glimpses of Voldemort's psychology and power but mostly letting him test his courage and ingenuity to prepare for the final confrontation.

Imagine Harry, who knows that Voldemort has been trying to kill him since he was a baby, not hearing about the Prophecy, not going with DD into the Pensieve, not doing all the things that I mentioned in the previous paragraph, just getting the same education as, say, Justin Finch-Fletchley or even James Potter twenty years before.

Dumbledore has done everything he can to prove to Harry that Harry is brave and resourceful, and in the process, Harry has twice survived direct encounters with Voldemort, one of them unplanned by DD, the other at a point when LV is almost helpless and DD, I am sure, did not really intend to leave him on his own. (Yes, let him solve the riddles with the hope of his friends, but don't leave him on his own to confront Quirrelmort. DD, not being omniscient, didn't anticipate a false message that sent him away from the castle--which, BTW, foreshadows Harry's falling for a similar trick in OoP and mitigates Harry's gullibility a bit since the great DD was also fooled.

At any rate, I think it would have been entirely wrong for DD to leave Harry alone. First, he sets up the blood protection (better life with unloving Muggles than death at the hands of Voldemort's followers since Harry's whereabouts would certainly not have been hidden by those who were proudly rearing him (life on the run with Sirius, another alternative, would have been difficult and probably brief--imagine word spreading through the WW that a dog Animagus was taking care of a little boy with a scar).

Second, he *allows* Harry to *choose* to obtain the skills he needs and, more important, to test his courage and find out that fighting Dark magic is not a matter of skills and wisdom so much as instinctively choosing to fight with the right resources. (Of course, luck plays a part, too--neither DD nor Harry could have anticipated the actions of Harry's wand in GoF or the escape from Privet Drive in HBP).

Carol, who does not hate Dumbledore but does regard him as arrogant and egotistical




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Feb 27 17:58:55 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:58:55 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hmbhev+9lj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmbmgv+tgm7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188994


> Carol responds:
 It seems to me that he's taking on the role of his mother, who no doubt kept Pepper-Up Potion on hand for just such an occasion.

Pippin:
Yes, exactly. I thought Percy had it on hand and gave it to Ginny as a home remedy. Doubtless she would resist being sent to the hospital wing and examined by a qualified person.

Pippin:
Who agrees absolutely about the misdirection. It's a brilliant example of what JKR means by "tricked but not conned."






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Feb 27 19:01:24 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 27 Feb 2010 19:01:24 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/28/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1267297284.510.65279.m11@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188995

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 28, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
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From heidi at heidi8.com  Sun Feb 28 15:09:19 2010
From: heidi at heidi8.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 10:09:19 -0500
Subject: Infinitus Programming Submissions Deadline is today!
Message-ID: <5913e6f81002280709j181044c9ja5eb4c3ff17a6ad9@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188996

Posted with permission of the mod squad:


There's more info at http://www.infinitus2010.org/cfp.html but today
is the last day to submit programming proposals for Infinitus, the
HPEF conference set to take place at Universal Studios Orlando's Royal
Pacific Resort from July 15 - 18.

Infinitus 2010: A Harry Potter Symposium gives fans and academics a
place to investigate, deconstruct, discuss, and illustrate the
literary magic woven into the Harry Potter novels as it relates not
only to the series, but also, its influence on the ?real world?. As a
symposium for adult fans and scholars of the Harry Potter novels, we
aim to promote scholarly analysis of the books, to provide forums for
debate and analysis among fans of those works, and to provide
professional development opportunities for teachers, librarians and
academic scholars.

Proposals are sought for presentations, papers, moderated panels, and
workshops on any topic relating to the Harry Potter novels and/or the
fan community. We welcome formal papers as well as proposals for a
variety of presentation models, including prepared panel discussions
and workshops. For workshops in particular, we encourage topics that
focus on audience participation and interaction.


Infinitus 2010 welcomes submissions in the following fields:
? Literary and Media Studies
? Law, Politics, Ethics
? Social Sciences
? Education and Library Science
? Fandom Studies and Culture
? Fan Creativity
? GLBT and/or Gender Studies

We also welcome submissions outside these areas. We encourage fresh
perspectives and original presentations that develop these themes or
other topics relating to the novels, derivative works in any media,
and fandom culture. As you delve into any or all of the themes and
fields suggested here, we invite you to imagine the infinite
possibilities of each.

- Heidi

PS - Let me know if you have any questions about programming, or
Infinitus in general - we can discuss it on
hpfgu-otchatter at yahoogroups.com or hpfgu-convention at yahoogroups.com if
anyone wants to.
- heidi


PS - more info coming next month about the Event in the Park After
Hours, which will take place after the park closes on July 16



From deeoblockedo at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 28 15:20:40 2010
From: deeoblockedo at yahoo.co.uk (deeoblockedo)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 15:20:40 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hme1k8+ac52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188997

>
> 2.	What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking Kwikspell course?

As someone else said (cant find post) it reminded me of the adverts you saw on the back of comics.
>

> 4.	Would you like to go to Deathday party?

Out of interest I would go. But if I had a heads up about the refreshments I would make sure I had a big dinner before I went haha.
>
> 5.	Obviously we know now that Draco was not Slytherin Heir, but what do you think was the reason for him saying that?

For attention and possibly respect among likeminded Slytherins.
>
> 6.	Ginny is pale at the beginning of the chapter and Percy bullies her into taking the medicine. We find out later about the diary and Tom, but at this point, we don't know. Did Percy seem out of character in "bullying" her?

I read it as concern and as Harry has no older siblings (or indeed anyone that cared enough) to "bully" him into taking medicine he sees the concern as bullying.  Percy is bossy in this scene but I dont see him as a bully.

> 7.	Filch is a Squib as we know now and he is expected to clean up the messes that magical kids make all the time. Do you think it is too much to expect of him?

Well I think it explains how grouchy he can be, born a Squib and having to clean up after all the magical childrens mess!

deeoblockedo




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 28 17:20:28 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:20:28 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <hlslsq+gj5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hme8ks+5d1e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188998

><snip nice summary and question 1, which others have already answered>

> 2.	What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking Kwikspell course?

Carol responded:
Surprise, I think. It hadn't occurred to me that he might be a "failed wizard" (much less a Squib, which we hadn't heard of yet unless you count Neville's fear that he was "all Muggle" in SS/PS). I wasn't really amused by the parodies of ads with testimonials though I recognized the tactic from real ads--"Learn Spanish in five weeks" or whatever.
> 
> 3.	 500th anniversary of Nick's death is one of the few dates (or is an only date?) that can help us place Harry Potter in time. And we debated the timeline many many times in the past. Do you feel that JKR made a wise decision to actually place it in time or would it have been better to let the reader place the action in time as they see fit and not give any definite dates in the book?

Carol:
It's the only date in the early books, but we do eventually get the dates on the Potters' tombstones, and we get people's ages at various times, which can help us to figure out the time line. For example, Auntie Muriel says that she's 107 and remembers DD as a teenager, which confused me because I thought that DD was 150, not 115. I like having a time line, but I wish it were consistent and that JKR's math skills were better. I can give numerous examples where she's off by about a year. I think it has something to do with being born in July so that she, like Harry, was always the same age through any given school year and she forgets that most people have a birthday between September 1 and June 30. She also seems to forget that the year itself changes during that same period. In the case of Nick's death date, she's off by 100 years from what she said in SS/PS (unrevised edition)--that he's been dead for 400 years (which would fit better with his ruff). It might be better, however, to have the dates relative to one another without specific dates. That way, she wouldn't have to worry about minor details like whether a particular video console was invented yet.
> 
> 4.	Would you like to go to Deathday party?

Carol:
If I were invited, I would accept the invitation to be polite. (Okay, I'm a wimp and I hate saying no!) But I would hate it and would find an excuse to leave early.
> 
> 5.	Obviously we know now that Draco was not Slytherin Heir, but what do you think was the reason for him saying that?

Carol:
Well, he didn't claim to be Slytherin's heir; he only gloated and warned (or threatened) the "Mudbloods." I don't think he'd have dared to say those words if the teachers, especially Dumbledore, had arrived yet. He's just trying to scare the Muggleborns and impress people with his apparent knowledge. (He clearly isn't surprised, and it seems clear that he knew at least a little bit about his father's plot to release Slytherin's monster and who the intended victims are. I don't think he knows about the diary and Ginny, though, much less who the heir of Slytherin is.)
>
<snip question 6, which I've already answered>
> 
> 7.	Filch is a Squib as we know now and he is expected to clean up the messes that magical kids make all the time. Do you think it is too much to expect of him?

Carol:
Despite his fussing, I think cleaning messes (and giving detentions) makes him feel important. It would make him feel even more inferior if the House Elves just snapped their fingers and did his work for him or a teacher or older student came along and whisked the mess away with a cleaning spell. Despite his malicious personality, I feel rather sorry for him. It must be very hard to see eleven-year-olds who are more magically powerful and talented than he is. I do think, though, that Squibs have some sort of magical connection to cats, which we see in both Filch and Mrs. Figg, and some sort of affinity with the magical world that differentiates them from Muggles. He wants to be around magic and the magical world and the QwikSpell course shows that he wants to be more than just an observer. Imagine being the only tone-deaf person in a family of musical geniuses or the only klutz in a family of athletes and multiply that by ten. Then imagine being the janitor in a school for such people. Being Filch can't be fun. No wonder he cares so much for his cat, the only creature (with the possible exception of Madam Pince) who shows him any affection or respect. I'm not trying to excuse his behavior, but I do understand why he's so envious and spiteful.
> 
Carol, who is by no means a Filch fan despite feeling somewhat sorry for him




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 28 18:01:27 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 28 Feb 2010 18:01:27 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/28/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1267380087.502.70656.m14@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188999

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 28, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
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Enter the password: hpfguchat

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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 28 18:14:14 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:14:14 -0000
Subject: the Kwikspell brochure
Message-ID: <hmebpm+di6c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189000

Alla discussed CoS Chapter 8 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188957>:

<< 2. What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking
Kwikspell course? >>

Pippin replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188988>:

<< I thought it was a funny parody of those ads in the back of magazines (Learn the piano instantly!) -- it didn't occur to me that Filch was magically impaired. >>

This is a forbidden "Me, too" post. Of course, the Kwikspell ad was not aimed at Squibs; it was aimed at people who had some magic ability, but either it was weak or they had goofed off too much in school to learn how to use it. The alleged people quoted said: "my potions were a family joke" and "My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms", not "I was never able to do any magic".

That whole bit of "Warlock D. J. Prod of Didsbury says: "My wife used to sneer at my feeble charms, but one month into your fabulous Kwikspell course and I succeeded in turning her into a yak! Thank you, Kwikspell!" could be the subject of an academic paper. 

We first encounter the sexual innuendo of "feeble charms", reminding us that the old age about the 97 pound weakling ended with him getting the girl, and reminding us of ads for courses on "How to Pick Up Girls" (and, nowdays, for "herbal Viagra"). 

Then we have the husband turning his wife into a yak -- that suggests that the exam question on visiting the newlyweds only to find that the witch wife had already turned her Muggle husband into an end table was not particularly shocking to the wizarding folk. To me, it seems a wiser bit of spousal abuse. The end table is less likely than the yak to gore the abuser with its horns or trample the abuser underfoot. But it doesn't seem like it would be great for his sex life.

Then finally we have that controversial word "warlock". 





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Feb 28 18:48:57 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:48:57 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 8 The Deathday Party
In-Reply-To: <B85BAC4AB1C84D3AB99D30291C149CFE@homemain>
Message-ID: <hmedqp+4ad9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189001



 "k12listmomma" <k12listmomma at ...> wrote:
>
> >2. What was your first thought when you realized that Filch was taking 
> >Kwikspell course?
> 
> At first, it was just the sort of humor that Rowlings stuck in the books. I 
> found the scene very funny. Then, I feel a little guilty that Harry is 
> snooping in someone's private mail- but realize that Harry is still new to 
> the WW, and there is so much to learn, that I feel almost that I would have 
> done the same thing, taken that same chance to learn something new about 
> this world that I didn't know so much about.


Potioncat:
I was surprised that Harry was reading the letter--it's one of those moments when you want to call out to the character, "No, don't do that!" but of course he does. It establishes a trend; Harry will snoop into DD's Pensieve and later into Snape's. DD did warn him that curiosity could be dangerous.

It also makes Harry and Severus more alike. What an interesting set of circumstances---Harry reading Filch's letter (the Squib who wants to be a wizard) and Severus reading Petunia's letter (the Muggle who wants to be a witch.)
>