CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 5. The Whomping Willow

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 188819

> Lealess:
> <SNIP>
> Did he really want Potter to be expelled? I start from the premise that Snape
> was trying to fulfill his vow to protect the son of a woman he loved and whose
> death he felt responsible for. I think this is what Rowling wanted us to
> believe, that no matter how imperfect Snape was, he kept his word and worked
> under Dumbledore's orders. If you accept this premise, then it should logically
> follow that Snape's actions sought to protect Potter, in the short run, and
> achieve the greater good, in the long run. Protecting Potter could have meant
> either placing him with the Dursleys on a more permanent basis, or it could have
> meant making him aware that he couldn't be irresponsible in a dangerous world
> where, if Muggles could see Potter in a flying car, Death Eaters could see him,
> as well.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> But isn't this circular reasoning? You start with the premise that Snape was trying to fulfill the vow to protect Harry which I agree that he tried, but I am also pointing out the facts (Snape arguing that Harry needs to be expelled so many times) that may contradict that premise and you discard them because you think this premise is uncontroverted? 


Montavilla47:
We can start from the opposite premise, that Snape hated Harry so much 
that he wanted him expelled--regardless of his vow.  But then that is 
contradicted by the Prince's Tale when Dumbledore informs Snape that 
Harry's fate is to be killed by Voldemort and Snape protests.  

There are four reasons I can see that Snape would protest:

One:  He's stopped hating Harry (which is what Dumbledore assumes 
and Snape vehemently denies.)

Two:  Snape is sick and tired of being manipulated by Dumbledore 
(which is contradicted by his continuing to allow Dumbledore's portrait
to give him orders).

Three: Snape is unable to stomach *anyone* being killed, even that 
rotten brat that he hates.  (I think this is partly true, but as Dumbledore
points out, he has watched a bunch of people getting killed and he's
managed to bear it.)

Four:  That promise to Lily is the most important thing to him--as 
important as ridding the world of a dangerous mass-murdering 
lunatic.  Which would also put it up there with teaching a Harry-free
potion's class.

Number Four seems like the most plausible to me.  When you weigh
the text evidence of CoS against that of DH, you *have* to put more
weight towards the DH text--because it's evident that The Prince's Tale
is meant to be explain Snape's motives throughout the series.

Therefore, what the Prince's Tale shows is more important than anything
CoS shows about Snape's true feelings towards anything.  

As it's *more* likely that Snape would bluff towards a student about
being expelled in any situation where a given student has been caught 
in wrongdoing (and add in the extra thrill of frightening James's son) than
that he would lie to Dumbledore in a private moment of extreme 
importance, I think the reasoning that Snape *was* bluffing is sound.

Even if it seems circular.

> 
> Lealess:
> <SNIP>
> I think the problem you are having interpreting Snape's actions is that you
> start from the premise that Snape is selfish, weak and evil. To me, this
> premise was invalidated with The Prince's Tale. If, as you say, you have no
> canon to support your speculations, I suggest you examine the assumptions you
> seek to support in the first place.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, I do not view Snape as selfish, weak and evil (evil as in serving Voldemort), I just view him as child abuser evil and certainly by the end of his life I do not view him as selfish and weak, not that I find it relevant to this dilemma of mine. If you could show me a canon where Snape says he does not want to expel Harry, or where he does not bring up expulsion once and does not have any other interests in situation (like not wanting Draco  expelled), I will certainly acknowledge it.

Montavilla47:

It seems to me that you are asking people to prove a negative here.
There are a million times that Snape *doesn't* bring up Harry being
expelled.  For example, he doesn't bring up Harry being expelled for 
breaking into Umbridge's office.  Seems like a perfect time.  Umbridge
is aching for an excuse to expel Harry.  I'm sure she'd do it if Snape
asked her.

He also doesn't bring it up when Harry, Hermione, and Ron attack him
in PoA.  

He also doesn't bring it up when he thinks Harry has stolen Gillyweed
from him.

He doesn't bring it up most of the days he teaches Harry, when he's
usually mad at Harry for some reason or another.  

The default mode is Snape *not* demanding that Harry be expelled 
(even if he may be *thinking* about it).  It's only a few times that he 
does, and those can be explained by other motives than a sincere
desire to have Harry expelled.

Alla:
> I think canon fact is that Snape brings up the expulsion multiple times. I do not see how from that we can assume that Snape does not want Harry expelled.

Montavilla47:
Not assume.  Conclude. 

To assume is to start from the premise (as you say above), that Snape
*does not* want Harry expelled.  

To conclude is to examine both premises:  That Snape *does* want 
Harry expelled and that Snape *does not* want Harry expelled.  Then
to look at the evidence of the text, weigh the contradictory evidence,
and *then* decide which is more likely.

Once we do that, we can address the question of *why* he's either
bluffing or asking for something that contradicts his vow.

But we have to start with either one or the other position.  No reason 
is going to cover both.