Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

Sat Feb 6 02:10:57 UTC 2010

No: HPFGUIDX 188824

Montavilla47:
We can start from the opposite premise, that Snape hated Harry so much
that he wanted him expelled--regardless of his vow. But then that is
contradicted by the Prince's Tale when Dumbledore informs Snape that
Harry's fate is to be killed by Voldemort and Snape protests.

There are four reasons I can see that Snape would protest:
<SNIP read other three UPTHREAD>
 Four: That promise to Lily is the most important thing to him--as
important as ridding the world of a dangerous mass-murdering
lunatic. Which would also put it up there with teaching a Harry-free
potion's class.

Number Four seems like the most plausible to me. When you weigh
the text evidence of CoS against that of DH, you *have* to put more
weight towards the DH text--because it's evident that The Prince's Tale
is meant to be explain Snape's motives throughout the series.

Therefore, what the Prince's Tale shows is more important than anything
CoS shows about Snape's true feelings towards anything.

As it's *more* likely that Snape would bluff towards a student about
being expelled in any situation where a given student has been caught
in wrongdoing (and add in the extra thrill of frightening James's son) than
that he would lie to Dumbledore in a private moment of extreme
importance, I think the reasoning that Snape *was* bluffing is sound.

Even if it seems circular.

Alla:

First of all thank you for such well thought out and easy to understand post, I definitely had couple of light bulb moments while reading it, I definitely understand the reasoning "why Snape did not want to expel Harry" much better now, I still have few issues with it though and accordingly with reconciling DH with it.

First and foremost I cannot stress enough that as far as I am concerned  if Snape wants to expel Harry and whatever follows from it means that Snape should be less evil than I view him, not more. After all since my main reason after DH  for dislike of Snape remains that I consider man having a sadistic desire to see Harry suffer and be humiliated as often as possible. So if Snape really WANTED Harry out of Hogwarts, one would think that it should weaken my view of him of sadistic bastard, if he wants a brat out of sight, that would mean  his desire to  have that overcomes his desire to inflict (what I consider as) emotional torture on Harry.  That I suppose still a reply of the sort to Lealess' post who seemed to imply that me viewing Snape as evil (which I do) has anything to do with me being convinced that Snape wanted Harry out of Hogwarts.

Moving on to your post.

I completely totally agree with you  that `Prince's tale" meant to explain Snape's motives (and IMO confirm or shatter some of the beliefs that we had as my belief  and desire of Snape being Voldemort's servant was shattered, but my belief in Snape hating Harry was confirmed in spades).

So here is what I get from Prince's Tale RE : Snape motives, in no order of importance to me.

1.	Snape promised to protect Harry's life.
2.	Snape hated Harry.
3.	Snape did not want Harry dead (I would think that his desire not see Harry dead evaporated pretty fast, but I fully agree that without Dumbledore's forcing the issue Snape wanted Harry alive for Lily's sake).

What I do **not** see in Prince's tale and what you seem to be seeing there is that Snape's promise to protect Harry became the most important thing for him and something that he on his own without Dumbledore to prompt him into it really wanted to do.

See what I am saying? Where does Prince's tale show that if Snape could he would not have wanted to get out of it? I am NOT disputing that he does not want Harry dead, I totally agree with it. I just do not see that Snape really cares if somebody else will do the protection part IF he could get out of it without breaking promise on technicality.

Oh, so I said I had a min light bulb moment and I did and I definitely need to think about this one more, thank you for that, maybe I will eventually talk myself into Snape not wanting Harry expelled lol. See, for some reason in my brain I was trying to reconcile Snape promising to protect Harry v him wanting to expel Harry (in my view) and Snape being upset over Dumbledore wanting Harry dead for some reason was hanging sort of separately, not sure how to explain it better. But as you say this also should be part of the dilemma and this is I guess even harder to reconcile. So anyway, thank you.

Montavilla47:

It seems to me that you are asking people to prove a negative here.
There are a million times that Snape *doesn't* bring up Harry being
expelled. For example, he doesn't bring up Harry being expelled for
breaking into Umbridge's office. Seems like a perfect time. Umbridge
is aching for an excuse to expel Harry. I'm sure she'd do it if Snape
asked her.

He also doesn't bring it up when Harry, Hermione, and Ron attack him
in PoA.

He also doesn't bring it up when he thinks Harry has stolen Gillyweed
from him.

He doesn't bring it up most of the days he teaches Harry, when he's
usually mad at Harry for some reason or another.

The default mode is Snape *not* demanding that Harry be expelled
(even if he may be *thinking* about it). It's only a few times that he
does, and those can be explained by other motives than a sincere
desire to have Harry expelled.

Alla:

Sorry, I do not understand how is that asking people to prove the negative. I am not asking people to prove that there are times when Snape catches Harry when he breaks the rules and does not bring the expulsion, sorry if I gave that impression. I am asking people to prove that he does not bring the expulsion when it is so warranted. Oy, I am looking at my upthread posts and maybe I did not qualify that, sorry. I mean obviously we do not know all Hogwarts rules that warrant expulsion and in fact maybe breaking in Umbridge's office warranted that indeed, I grant you that, or maybe not.  And see my response to Pippin, IMO Snape bringing up suspension during PoA is pretty much the same as bringing up expulsion, that time IMO is definitely very serious and if Snape would not have demanded things there, I would have agreed. Does that make sense? Like I know when In PS Snape takes a book from Harry he does not bring expulsion (well as you know I think he made up that rule, but even if he does not, IMO bringing up expulsion there would have made Snape look crazy).

Montavilla47:
Not assume. Conclude.

To assume is to start from the premise (as you say above), that Snape
*does not* want Harry expelled.

To conclude is to examine both premises: That Snape *does* want
Harry expelled and that Snape *does not* want Harry expelled. Then
to look at the evidence of the text, weigh the contradictory evidence,
and *then* decide which is more likely.

Once we do that, we can address the question of *why* he's either
bluffing or asking for something that contradicts his vow.

But we have to start with either one or the other position. No reason
is going to cover both.

Alla:

Of course! Snape either wants Harry expelled or he does not. That is not the contradiction I was interested in though. The contradiction was: Snape wants Harry expelled, but also swore to protect him, how that could be reconciled.

I totally understand how my contradiction is very easily reconciled by Snape indeed NOT wanting Harry expelled, I am just not quite convinced of that yet.

Nikkalmati

Your right - these two positions are incompatable; therefore, one of them has to
give way. We know Snape promised to protect Harry and that it cannot be done
outside of Hogwarts. Ergo, Snape, no matter what he says to Harry, does not
want Harry expelled.

Alla:

In order for me to consider these two positions irreconcilable I need more proof on :

a)	Harry cannot be protected outside of Hoghwarts ( As much as I do not find it conclusive, Petunia and blood to me seem to prove the opposite at least in author's POV).
b)	Snape indeed **wants** to continue protecting Harry. Note I am not saying that Snape wants Harry dead, as I said above I am totally convinced by Prince's tale that he wanted Harry alive. What I am not convinced of is that this is a task **Snape** wants to continue doing.

Nikkalmati:
I would point out that nowhere in canon does Snape urge anyone who had the
authority to expell Harry to do so.

Alla:

I would point out that as far as I remember nowhere in canon we are privy to conversations of Snape and other teachers about disciplining anybody. To me it cannot be proof that such conversation did not happen, since they are outside of narrator's POV. We see the conversations between Snape and Dumbledore in Prince's tale of course, but besides that I do not remember any. There is that exchange between Snape and Lupin in PoA about Neville, but that is not exactly discussing how to punish him I would think.

 In this chapter Snape says that he is going to bring people who have the authority  to expel Harry and that is what he does, I do not think that it would be too much of filling in the blanks that Snape telling Dumbledore and Minerva about what happen means him wanting them to exercise their authority, IMO of course.

Alla