Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188856


Alla:
> First and foremost I cannot stress enough that as far as I am concerned if
Snape wants to expel Harry and whatever follows from it means that Snape should
be less evil than I view him, not more...

Montavilla47:
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if it's that
Snape's sincerity in wanting Harry expelled has little bearing
on whether or not he's "evil," then I think I agree. I mean,
I suppose he'd be more evil if he wanted Harry *dead.* But
if you want to think him evil for scaring Harry, rather than
evil for truly wanting Harry out of Hogwarts, go ahead.

No skin off my nose.

Alla:

Heh, not quite I think. What I am saying is that Snape who sincerely wants Harry out of his sight (providing of course that Harry who is out of his sight stays alive and not dead) is in my eyes less sadistic evil bastard then the one who does not want Harry out of his sight (providing that he wants him in his sight to torment him and not just keep him alive).

Does that make more sense? We both agree that Snape does not want Harry dead. Say we also both agree that Snape does not want Harry expelled and just bluffs. To you (sorry for putting words in your mouth, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that means that Snape does not want Harry expelled because he promised to keep him alive, right? But to me (if I were to agree that is) that means that Snape does not want him expelled also because he gets a joy out of seeing Harry humiliated and in pain. I do not know how to explain it any better.


Montavilla47:
Hmm. Well, I think that his protest to Dumbledore is a
strong indication of the importance he placed on that
promise. He seems genuinely shocked, appalled, and then
angry at Dumbledore about the idea of allowing Harry
to be killed.

If he were simply waiting for that burdensome promise
to be lifted, then I would think he'd be a lot more agreeable
to the idea.

Alla:

See I am missing a step of how "Snape does not want Harry dead" transforms into "Snape and only Snape being able and wanting to protect him". Sure, he is all that you are describing in that scene, but when I say he may want this promise to be lifted, I do not think that means he wants Harry dead, I think he just may be quite happy to put the burden of protecting Harry on somebody else.

Montavilla47:
I think you may be right about that. If, for example,
Dumbledore had said that McGonagall was taking over the
job and Snape was free to leave, then I'm sure Snape would
have loved to jump at that.

Alla:

Exactly! This is **all** I am saying at this point, I think.

Montavilla:
But I'm not sure that Dumbledore had the power to free
Snape from the promise, since the promise was only made
to Dumbledore as a proxy to Lily. As Snape makes clear
in that scene, he's not doing it for Dumbledore. He's doing
it for Lily.

Alla:

Well, I do not think I can agree with that. I mean, sure he does it for Lily as well as he says, what I disagree with is that he is not doing it for Dumbledore. I think agreeing to convince Harry that he needs to die pretty much shows that he is really doing for Dumbledore. We can argue for a long time who is the primary recipient of Snape's promise of course. I can certainly agree that Lily is one of them, I just do not agree that she is the only one and I think that by agreeing with Dumbledore Snape chosen Dumbledore as his main promise holder (if this is even a right expression lol).

Montavilla:
Which is why I think (although I have nothing else to back
it up) that it did take Snape some time to reconcile himself
to Dumbledore's final plan. I think he would have had to
think it through and decide for himself that *Lily* would have
thought it more important for Voldemort to be gone than for
Harry to live. <SNIP>

Alla:

I always thought it took him couple of minutes to reconcile himself  to Dumbledore's plan while he was talking to him and he proceeded to start preparing for the plan, dutiful servant he was. But I realize that conversation ended with Snape not saying anything one way or another, so I cannot disprove what you said. I cannot agree with it either though.

JMO,

Alla