From bart at moosewise.com Fri Jan 1 02:56:14 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 21:56:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3D644E.8070501@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188671 Geoff wrote: > And since JKR was writing within that context, had it been part of > the story line for Voldemort to repent and show remorse, I believe > she would have had it happen. > Bart: This brings up a question which JKR dodges. She clearly writes Morty as being mentally ill; certainly sociopathic and probably psyhopathic. This means, among other things, that he does not have the capability of repentance, much less the desire to do so. He is completely lacking in empathy, and would no more feel remorse to a fellow human being than we would show remorse to an empty chair we pushed aside so that we could get by. The question is a basic one of those who believe in an afterlife, but do not believe in reincarnation: what happens in the afterlife to someone whose behavior was limited by mental illness? JKR depicts Morty being in for an eternity of suffering, and, frankly, it's through no fault of his own. The choosing of good and evil in Christianity is based on the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Yet, Morty has no real understanding of good and evil, except as purely intellectual constructs. The apparent reason why he so readily splits his soul so much is that there is a blockage between his mind and his soul. Had his full soul been suddenly restored, he would not have been able to tell the difference between the almost soulless state and the state with the full soul. In some Eastern systems where they believe in reincarnation, they believe that there is an ephemeral part of humanity, and an eternal part, eventually connecting to an ultimate unity. What we call the soul is the eternal part of us. Our emotions, desires, etc. are part of the ephemeral part. Within that belief system, when a being with flaws like Morty's dies, he brings nothing of that life into his future lives. He isn't even necessarily effected by the karma, since the creation of karma requires making a choice. But in a Christian sense, someone like him is problematical. And, like I said, JKR fails to even consider the question, much less answer it. Bart From s_ings at yahoo.com Fri Jan 1 04:59:00 2010 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (S_Ings) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 04:59:00 -0000 Subject: Happy New Year's from Hexquarters! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188672 *Speedy Elf staggers to the doorway of Hexquarters and looks around to see if anyone has heard the noise* Cardi Elf: Sssssshhhhh, they's going to hear all the noise we is making! Zaney Elf: We should be turning down the music or everyone will be wanting to party with us. *Alika Elf accidentally turns up the music* *Exmoor Elf falls off chair in surprise at the sudden commotion* *Vexxy Elf and Shorty Elf are behind the bar, concocting multicoloured drinks and handing them out to passing Elves* Marvin Elf: Look at this! They is making drinks that smoke and bubble! Twisp Elf: Oh, oh, can I be having one of each? Corbie Elf: You will be getting very drunk if you is drinking that much! Phlytie Elf: But they said that is what New Year's celebrations is all about, having parties and misbehaving. Zippy Elf: I is never misbehaving. *hiccups* Blinky Elf grins: I think you has been drinking too much butterbeer! Penapart Elf: Shouldn't we be inviting all the List Members to join the party? Crikey Elf: But we will have to be sharing the drinks if we do that! Kroppy Elf: Hmmm... do we want to be sharing the drinks? Are there enough for everyone? Kelley Elf: It is a MAGIC bar, there is always enough drinks to go around! Rylly Elf: And we can be making them wear silly party hats if they want to be drinking at OUR bar! *Speedy Elf drags out a box of party hats and noisemakers* Zaney Elf: We is prepared for this! *Cardi Elf throws wide the doors of Hexquarters* *Corbie Elf hangs up a sign that says "Party in Progress - Everyone Welcome"* *Marvin Elf tacks another sign below that reads "Free drinks for all"* Alika Elf: That'll get them all here! Exmoor Elf: I know, let's get their attention. Everyone on the count of three... The tipsy List Elves stumble into formation, leaning on each other for support and hoisting drinks in the vague direction of the Main List. HAPPY NEW YEAR'S, EVERYONE! From iam.kemper at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 15:19:45 2010 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 15:19:45 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188673 > SteveE: > ... I don't remember anyone else w/ a possible motive to consider what Hermione did as something to be forgiven Kemper now: I do. There's the creepy McLaggen, the House Elves of Hogwarts, and Hermione's parents. I'm sure many members aren't interested in rehashing the dark side of Hermione, but if you read post number 188033 you can see where I present some canon that points to her deceit and her overall subtle, wretched badness... for the greater good, of course. Kemper From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jan 1 16:19:08 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 16:19:08 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188674 Kemper: > > I'm sure many members aren't interested in rehashing the dark side of Hermione, but if you read post number 188033 you can see where I present some canon that points to her deceit and her overall subtle, wretched badness... for the greater good, of course. Potioncat: Just watch out if JKR's next WW novel involves a young child going to Hogwarts under the patronage of the white haired Headmistresss Hermione Weasley. Hermione could be the next DD. She's very much like him---down the secrecy and certainty that she's right. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 1 17:06:23 2010 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 17:06:23 -0000 Subject: Lily and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188675 > antonia31h: > I think a gesture from Snape, while Lily was alive could have mattered to her and make her realise that he was an honorable and trustworthy friend after all. Yes, after her death he tried his best to protect her son (in his own manner) and to repay the debt that he felt he had towards her. But why not try to talk to her, to prove to her all this while she was still alive? If the "mudblood" gesture made her turn away, couldn't have been any other act of his that might have made her forgive him? If I would have been in Snape's situation and considering that the person I loved was in danger and could be gone forever at any moment, I would have wanted not to let her go without explaining myself. I would have wanted to see a scene from his memories where he at least tries as an adult to talk to Lily and to make her forgive him. > Montavilla47: Pardon me if this has been addressed by others: Snape did try to talk to Lily. He tried quite hard, since he camped outside the Gryffindor common room and refused to move until she came out. It's clear from the book that Lily was the one who broke things off. Any further communication from Snape at that point could easily be construed as harrassment. If Snape didn't contact her after she broke it off, that can be seen as him treating her with consideration for her feelings. I think it's interesting what Pippin says about love not leading, in this series, to people treating their loved ones with consideration. We see that over and over again with Ron and Hermione being prime examples. We know that they're in love by the third or fourth book. (Even Harry knows it in GoF!) But they continue to belittle each other and try to make the other one jealous or angry throughout the series. Even in the epilogue, Ron is hiding things from Hermione. Likewise, Harry loves Ginny, but he doesn't really take her feelings into account, does he? As late as the final battle for Hogwarts, he's unhappy to see her show up and sides with Molly in making Ginny sit in a room while everyone else is defending the castle. That she gets out of that restriction is *despite* Harry, not because of him. So, yes, Love and Consideration are not usually partnered in the world of Harry Potter. And, in the earliest Lily/Snape scenes, we see that young Severus is very consider of Lily's feelings--considerate enough to lie about his own feelings and tell her that it won't matter that she's Muggleborn, and to try and curb his anti-Muggle prejudice in her presence. The problem between them doesn't seem to be any lack of empathy from Snape but rather his fundamental nature--which is unpleasant, ambitious, and bigotted. Ironically, since Snape is one of the few lovers who does try to change himself to please another person, he comes off (in contrast to everyone else) as obsessive. But he can't change--at least, he can't without a huge tragic loss and a lot of hard work. All that hard work can't change him to the point where he can love someone he doesn't. But it does change him enough to try and save people he doesn't love. Montavilla47 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 1 17:59:30 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 17:59:30 -0000 Subject: Lily and Snape In-Reply-To: <4B3C1C25.6000803@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188676 antonia31h wrote: > > The way I see it is that if Snape had truly loved Lily and did not have some sort of obsession over her (that's my theory regarding his feelings) he would have given even his life in order to save hers. > > Bart: > And how, pray tell, could his death have accomplished more to save Lily than what he did? > > Carol responds: Exactly. Snape tells Dumbledore that he wants to die, and DD asks what that would accomplish. Then he convinces Snape to help him protect Lily's son so that her death won't be in vain. Of course, he risked his life by going to DD in the first place (and possibly in going to LV to ask *him* to spare Lily--DEs don't normally ask LV for favors or rewards). And, in the end, he dies after giving Harry crucial information. In any case, I agree with Bart that he did everything he could to save Lily and to make up for it afterward. He didn't know when he reported the prophecy to LV that he was endangering her, and it certainly would have done no good to go directly to her when he found out. Much better to go first to LV and then to Dumbledore. It's not Snape's fault that DD's protections failed. Carol, quite sure that Snape's love was real though his view of Lily idealized, as indicated by his Patronus From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 1 18:18:24 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:18:24 -0000 Subject: Lily and Snape/Loving couples in canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188677 > > Alla: > > > > Wait, I do not think that what you are saying is that the only real love shown in canon is the love of the jerk or somebody who shows no insight or consideration in other character's feelings? > > Pippin: > Correct, that is not what I am saying. Alla: Good to know, thank you :) Pippin: I am saying that in canon the ability to love is unrelated to the ability to have insight into people's feelings or treat them with consideration when you'd rather do otherwise. Alla: Well, I guess I cannot completely agree with this statement either. I suppose I partially agree, but I thought in the examples I brought up those couples were considerate to each other in quite a few situations and in love too. I would say that when it is portrayed that people love somebody but cannot treat them with consideration, it is shown that those people need to grow up maybe? I mean, I certainly agree that it does not necessarily mean that their love is any less real, whatever meaning one puts into it, just less mature maybe? Pippin: Lupin, for example, shows great insight and consideration towards Neville, and I don't think he's being manipulative, but I don't think that means Lupin loves Neville more than he loves Tonks or his unborn child. Alla: To me it says that Lupin's love of teacher for his student was more mature for quite some time than his love for Tonks. Well, we all know that he loves Sirius more than anybody else anyway, so it is not surprising (kidding). Don't we agree that at least in author's view Harry's lecture towards him is completely justified and what Harry (and author) wanted him to do is to go back to Tonks and be a good father and husband first and foremost? So, yes, absolutely to me it means that untill Lupin learned to place Tonks' and his baby interests above his own ( even if it means helping Harry to save the world, but whatever, now I am not talking about how justified or not justified that is IMO), author was saying that his love was not as mature as she wanted him to be. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 1 18:29:54 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:29:54 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 17, The Man with Two Faces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megan Real" wrote: > >> Questions: > > 1. The first time you read the chapter, were you surprised that it had been Quirrell trying to knock Harry off his broom back at the Quidditch match? Alla: Oh yes, most definitely I was and come to think of it, it is very good that at that time I did not develop a habit of looking at the last page of the book lol. I mean, it was the first one in the series, so I did not have the burning desire to know heeee. But yes I had no idea that it was Quirrell, this I remember very well. > 3. I can't recall exactly where I read the following argument (searching previous discussions on here turned up far too many results to be sure), so I apologize if this is redundant, and if you know who brought this up, please give them credit - but it has been suggested (somewhere) that Quirrell should have been able to get the stone from the mirror, since he wanted it not for himself, but for Voldemort. What do you think? Alla: I think your question makes sense if we were to look at the spirit of what Dumbledore tells to Harry. If somebody wants it for something selfish, he won't be able to get it, however I agree with Potioncat if we were to look at the letter of what Dumbledore is saying. Quirrell still was planning to *use* it, even if for somebody else's use. So it makes sense to me that Quirrell could not do it, I think. > 4. Do you think that Voldemort was able to read Harry's thoughts at all during this chapter? Alla: Yes, definitely, another one of these things which I prefer not to dwell on too much. Voldemort is a superb legilimenc, so he should have been able to overcome any pathetic lies that Harry told him, push his buttons and all that and then tell Quirrell to get the stone not for use, or something like that. Oh well, we would have had no story then. > > 5. What do you think would have happened if Voldemort had gotten the stone? Alla: Nothing good heeeee. > > 6. In an alternate universe, if this book hadn't sold well, there might not have been any more published. If this had been a stand-alone book, with no sequels, would you have found it to be satisfying? > > Alla: I agree that it is very hard to imagine now, because even when I read it, GoF was just out, so I knew already there are sequels, but if I think about it, yes, absolutely and the character of Snape would have matched my expectations more lol. Thanks for the great questions, Meegan. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 1 19:44:06 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:44:06 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <4B3D644E.8070501@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188679 > > Bart: > This brings up a question which JKR dodges. She clearly writes Morty > as being mentally ill; certainly sociopathic and probably psyhopathic. > This means, among other things, that he does not have the capability of > repentance, much less the desire to do so. He is completely lacking in > empathy, and would no more feel remorse to a fellow human being than we > would show remorse to an empty chair we pushed aside so that we could > get by. > > But in a Christian sense, someone like him is problematical. And, > like I said, JKR fails to even consider the question, much less > answer it. Pippin: Oh, but she does. Voldemort does not even want to feel love or remorse, although after his reconstitution with Harry's blood he has the ability. It is that choice, not his illness, that dooms him. Lupin in his werewolf form was no more capable of remorse or conscience than Voldemort was prior to his re-embodiment. But Lupin is not blamed for this, but for not being willing to trust that Tonks and his unborn child will accept him and care about him despite his weaknesses. Pippin From bart at moosewise.com Fri Jan 1 20:59:29 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 15:59:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3E6231.3050304@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188680 Pippin: > Oh, but she does. Voldemort does not even want to feel love or remorse, although after his reconstitution with Harry's blood he has the ability. It is that choice, not his illness, that dooms him. Bart: I do not recall seeing that in my reading. You don't have to quote chapter and verse if you don't want to, but can you give me at least a basic idea of where it said or implied that his reconstitution with Harry's blood cured him of his sociopathy/psychopathy? Bart From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jan 1 22:04:19 2010 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:04:19 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness - and Accountability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188681 --- "SteveE" wrote: > > .... > > Steve, who also wonders if LV had shown remorse, and had given himself up and apologized for all his evil whether or not he would ever have been forgiven by anyone? > bboyminn: If Voldemort had repented, that doesn't necessarily mean we forgive or forget. Even if, in his repentance, he made us understand the motivation for his behavior, our understanding still does not equal absolution. Even criminals who truly and honestly feel remorse for their crimes are still punished, and rightly so. And, most who TRULY repent understand that there needs to be a price paid for their crimes, and they gladly pay that price. So, in repenting and showing remorse, Voldemort may save himself in the afterlife, but he still pays societies debt in his current life. There is no escaping that. Understanding and repentance does not equal absolution here on earth. As to the aspect of Voldemort having some type of uncontrollable mental illness. In law, and in society, we hold that all people who commit calculated murder are mentally ill. However, the test of whether we will hold them accountable is not based in the existance of mental illness, but on the ability to know and understand right and wrong. Not matter how extreme your complusions, no matter how uncaring for you fellow man, if you know what you do is wrong, then you are held accountable. In extreme cases, such as Hitler and similar, clearly these people aren't playing with a full deck. But they do understand what they are doing, even when they are able to justify it and ignore the morality of it, because they've hid it behind some overblown philosophy or doctrine. Keep in mind there is a huge difference between Rational and Rationalize. A rational person can still create the most twisted illogical rationalizations to justify unconscionable acts. In some cases, it is society who decides if the person was able to understand and capable of taking a stand against the actions he is being asked to commit. The decision is not purely a psychological matter. So, even if Voldemort repented, even if he was a clear sociopath, I believe he would have still been held accountable for his actions. Steve/bboyminn From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Fri Jan 1 22:47:04 2010 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:47:04 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <4B3E6231.3050304@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188682 > Pippin: > > Oh, but she does. Voldemort does not even want to feel love or remorse, although after his reconstitution with Harry's blood he has the ability. It is that choice, not his illness, that dooms him. > > Bart: > I do not recall seeing that in my reading. You don't have to quote > chapter and verse if you don't want to, but can you give me at least a > basic idea of where it said or implied that his reconstitution with > Harry's blood cured him of his sociopathy/psychopathy? Magpie: I didn't get that either. Wanting to feel remorse is already feeling some sort of remorse. Voldemort's choices showed what he was through his life, and remorse was never anything he felt. I don't think he was ever even described as having an illness. I didn't think he became a different person (thus someone who would make a different choice to show he was different) with Harry's blood. -m From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 1 22:48:22 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:48:22 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <4B3E6231.3050304@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188683 > Pippin: > > Oh, but she does. Voldemort does not even want to feel love or remorse, although after his reconstitution with Harry's blood he has the ability. It is that choice, not his illness, that dooms him. > > Bart: > I do not recall seeing that in my reading. You don't have to quote > chapter and verse if you don't want to, but can you give me at least a > basic idea of where it said or implied that his reconstitution with > Harry's blood cured him of his sociopathy/psychopathy? > Pippin: In "Kings Cross", Dumbledore tells Harry that Harry's blood is Voldemort's one hope for himself. DD doesn't explain what this means, but Harry already knows that remorse is the only way a damaged soul can be repaired. There are hints that the reconstructed Voldemort is not quite the person that he was. He does things that seem out of character for his earlier self: forgiving his errant Death Eaters, rescuing Bella from the ministry even after she failed him, and at one point in DH being aware that not trusting is a choice. I don't think "cure" is the right word. JKR herself was treated for depression, and I feel she's imagined an interim state for Voldemort similar to what a depressive might go through in the course of treatment. Anti-depressants can cure the chemical imbalance that causes depression, but until the patient learns (and chooses) to stop thinking like a depressed person, the symptoms don't go away. Pippin > From bart at moosewise.com Fri Jan 1 23:00:27 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:00:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3E7E8B.6000903@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188684 Magpie: > I don't think he was ever even described as having an illness. I didn't think he became a different person (thus someone who would make a different choice to show he was different) with Harry's blood. > Bart: A couple of years back, I wrote a post showing how Morty was clearly depicted as being depicted as a sociopath/psychopath. The current Wikipedia article on psychopathy is a good starting place to decide for yourself (according to the article, while a psychopathic criminal in the UK could go to the hospital rather than prison, in fact, as there is no known treatment for psychopathy and that attempts at treatment tend to make the make matters worse, in practice they get sent to prison instead). Bart [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Fri Jan 1 23:10:12 2010 From: HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 23:10:12 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <4B3E6231.3050304@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188685 > Pippin: > Oh, but she does. Voldemort does not even want to feel love or remorse, although after his reconstitution with Harry's blood he has the ability. It is that choice, not his illness, that dooms him. > Bart: > I do not recall seeing that in my reading. Kemper now: I don't either. I believe Harry's blood in Voldemort meant that Harry couldn't be killed when his blood with his mom's protection lived in Voldemort. Or something like that. Harry's blood did not grant Voldemort the power of compassion nor remorse. It just gave Voldemort a body which would benefit Harry upon their meeting in the forest. As to Voldemort's mental illness, I see where Bart is coming from but I don't see it in canon. Meaning we don't see Voldemort raised in horrible conditions that would beget an anti-social personality disorder, a disorder brought on by one's environment rather than by one's birth. Not that everyone who experiences abusive conditions become abusive, but every abuser comes from abuse (venn diagram, anyone?) The orphanage does not seem to provide the kind of conditions that would rear an anti-social personality, and Tom was there since his birth. I was hoping to see some humanity in Tom Riddle in the sixth book or to see that the orphanage was an vile place, but that would have made Voldemort either more complex or more sympathetic. But ::sigh:: He was a cartoon baddie and it was laughable to have Harry offer Voldemort a chance for remorse. jmao, Kemper From iam.kemper at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 23:33:08 2010 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 23:33:08 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188686 > Pippin: > In "Kings Cross", Dumbledore tells Harry that Harry's blood is Voldemort's one hope for himself. DD doesn't explain what this means, but Harry already knows that remorse is the only way a damaged soul can be repaired. Kemper now: Okay. > Pippin > There are hints that the reconstructed Voldemort is not quite the person that he was. He does things that seem out of character for his earlier self: forgiving his errant Death Eaters, rescuing Bella from the ministry even after she failed him, and at one point in DH being aware that not trusting is a choice. Kemper now: I don't see this as forgiveness. He needs his Death Eaters to be more powerful and scary. He rescues Bella because his other Death Eaters have been caught and so has lost supporters which make him less powerful and scary. It's calculating not forgiving which makes Harry's suggestion of remorse still laughable. Kemper From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Jan 2 00:06:26 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 00:06:26 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <4B3E6231.3050304@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: Pippin: > > Oh, but she does. Voldemort does not even want to feel love or remorse, although after his reconstitution with Harry's blood he has the ability. It is that choice, not his illness, that dooms him. Bart: > I do not recall seeing that in my reading. You don't have to quote > chapter and verse if you don't want to, but can you give me at least a > basic idea of where it said or implied that his reconstitution with > Harry's blood cured him of his sociopathy/psychopathy? Geoff: Perhaps not, but there is a point where it is made clear to him that he needs to consider remorse and his responses as it goes home make it clear that he rejects the idea... '"...Dumbledore's last plan went wrong. Harry Potter." "Yeah, it did," said Harry. "You're right. But before you try to kill me, I'd advise you to think about what you've done ... think, and try for some remorse, Riddle ..." "What is this?" Of all the things that Harry had said to him, beyond any revelation or taunt, nothing had shocked Voldemort like this. Harry saw his pupils contract to thin slits, saw the skin around his eyes whiten. "It's your one last chance." said Harry, "it's all you've got left ... I've seen what you'll be otherwise ... be a man ... try ... try for some remorse." "You dare-?" said Voldemort again. "Yes, I dare," said Harry, "Because Dumbledore's last plan hasn't backfired on me at all. It's backfired on you, Riddle."' (DH "The Flaw in the Plan" p.594 UK edition) From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Sat Jan 2 00:59:46 2010 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 00:59:46 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <4B3E7E8B.6000903@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188688 > Magpie: > > I don't think he was ever even described as having an illness. I didn't think he became a different person (thus someone who would make a different choice to show he was different) with Harry's blood. > > > > Bart: > A couple of years back, I wrote a post showing how Morty was clearly > depicted as being depicted as a sociopath/psychopath. The current > Wikipedia article on > psychopathy is a good starting place to decide for yourself (according > to the article, while a psychopathic criminal in the UK could go to the > hospital rather than prison, in fact, as there is no known treatment for > psychopathy and that attempts at treatment tend to make the make matters > worse, in practice they get sent to prison instead). Magpie: But him seeming like a sociopath doesn't mean we're dealing with a psychological problem with Voldemort that makes him different from the rest of the characters. If he's a sociopath an injection of virtuous Harry blood shouldn't help him. Pippin: There are hints that the reconstructed Voldemort is not quite the person that he was. He does things that seem out of character for his earlier self: forgiving his errant Death Eaters, rescuing Bella from the ministry even after she failed him, and at one point in DH being aware that not trusting is a choice. Magpie: I think that's working backwards, needing some sign that he's different and making up a past for him that makes him OOC where we never saw the previous character. It never seemed to me that he was being particularly remorseful or compassionate by doing those things. Pippin: Anti-depressants can cure the chemical imbalance that causes depression, but until the patient learns (and chooses) to stop thinking like a depressed person, the symptoms don't go away. Magpie: I really don't see anything like this psychological theory anywhere, with Harry's blood being like some kind of medication. (And even if it was like this theory, thinking like a depressed person would still be the fault of the depression and not the person.) It seems to me more just like Harry's taunt to Voldemort. His choices show what he is and what he's always been--which isn't a person with a mental disorder, but an evil person. He continues to be an evil person and make the same choices as always. If Harry's blood gave him some sort of capacity for remorse it remained outside of his actual character, same as some of Harry's bad behavior was down to Voldemort's soul bit. If it had any effect it was just to reinforce what he'd always been, somebody who didn't feel remorse. -m From bart at moosewise.com Sat Jan 2 03:10:15 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:10:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3EB917.2080506@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188689 Kemper now: > As to Voldemort's mental illness, I see where Bart is coming from but I don't see it in canon. Meaning we don't see Voldemort raised in horrible conditions that would beget an anti-social personality disorder, a disorder brought on by one's environment rather than by one's birth. Not that everyone who experiences abusive conditions become abusive, but every abuser comes from abuse (venn diagram, anyone?) The orphanage does not seem to provide the kind of conditions that would rear an anti-social personality, and Tom was there since his birth. Bart: I found that the discussion of Mort as a psychopath was in the spring and summer of 2007, over a number of posts. However, one thing of interest I found while looking back; someone reports that JKR said in an interview that the drop of Harry's blood gave Morty a choice. I tried to find the original but I have only found a couple of second-hand references, no actual quote or specific interview. The key is that there are a list of symptoms of sociopathy and psychopathy, and it is clear that Morty exhibits all of them save the symptom of an inability to make and stick to long term plans. Now, if JKR says that Morty could repent, I'll put that in the same file as Dumbledore being gay; interesting to see what was in JKR's mind, but it's not present at all in the text. Bart From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jan 2 04:46:23 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 04:46:23 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188690 > Magpie: > > But him seeming like a sociopath doesn't mean we're dealing with a psychological problem with Voldemort that makes him different from the rest of the characters. If he's a sociopath an injection of virtuous Harry blood shouldn't help him. Pippin: Technically, of course, he's not a psychopath, he's a wizard with a magical condition that mimics psychopathy, just as dementors produce a condition that mimics clinical depression. And JKR's magical conditions have magical cures. But the patronus spell was little use to Harry as long as he still wanted to hear his parents' voices. And Harry's blood was little use to Voldemort, because he still wanted to be ruthless and cruel, and because he was afraid to be anything else. That, and not his magical condition, made him evil. > > Pippin: > There are hints that the reconstructed Voldemort is not quite the person that he was. He does things that seem out of character for his earlier self: forgiving his errant Death Eaters, rescuing Bella from the ministry even after she failed him, and at one point in DH being aware that not trusting is a choice. > > Magpie: > I think that's working backwards, needing some sign that he's different and making up a past for him that makes him OOC where we never saw the previous character. It never seemed to me that he was being particularly remorseful or compassionate by doing those things. Pippin: I don't have to make up Voldemort's past. We see quite a bit of it, in Diary!Riddle, in Gof prior to his rebirth, in the memories Dumbledore collected, and in the flashback in DH. The Voldemort of the past trusted no one, never got angry, felt no emotional connection to his Death Eaters, and left Quirrell to die when Quirrell failed him, though I see no reason Quirrell couldn't still have been as useful as Peter was. > > Pippin: > > Anti-depressants can cure the chemical imbalance that causes depression, but until the patient learns (and chooses) to stop thinking like a depressed person, the symptoms don't go away. > > Magpie: > I really don't see anything like this psychological theory anywhere, with Harry's blood being like some kind of medication. (And even if it was like this theory, thinking like a depressed person would still be the fault of the depression and not the person.) Pippin: We're talking about choices, not fault. It isn't your fault if your car gets buried in the snow, but that doesn't mean you've got no choice but to wait till the snow melts. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jan 2 17:21:36 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 17:21:36 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188691 > Kemper now: > I don't see this as forgiveness. He needs his Death Eaters to be more powerful and scary. He rescues Bella because his other Death Eaters have been caught and so has lost supporters which make him less powerful and scary. It's calculating not forgiving which makes Harry's suggestion of remorse still laughable. > Pippin: Ah, but V2 isn't as calculating as V1. That was one of the big shocks in DH. We were expecting to find the WW in the hands of a cold, calculating supervillain, but V2 has impulse control problems that V1 never had. That, IMO, is because V2 has impulses that V1 never had. V2 throws tantrums like a two year old, not coincidentally because his moral sense is just exactly two years old. V1 never considered whether his victims deserved what they got. He handed out rewards and punishments to manipulate people, or because it amused him. He was going to feed Wormtail to Nagini to punish him for carelessness, but changed his mind when it turned out that Crouch's escape hadn't succeeded after all. Wormtail was in luck and Nagini was out of it. t Wormtail's carelessness was not any less because of that, but in V1's cosmos, people suffer because they are unlucky, not because they deserve to. But V2 is deliciously aware that Wormtail deserves pain for neglecting his master, even though Voldemort is no longer suffering from that neglect at the time. V2 wants to reward the DE's who went to Azkaban for him above all others (though their being there is certainly of no benefit to him). Most of all, he's aware as he kills Snape that Snape deserves better of him. Psychopaths don't think like that, IMO. Pippin From winterfell7 at hotmail.com Sat Jan 2 18:01:04 2010 From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 18:01:04 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188692 Steve replies: Putting real life personality disorder criteria on a fictional character is always really tricky, fun, but tricky. JKR can mix and match personality traits for LV as she deems necessary for plot and character development. Like Pippin, I kind of see more sociopathic tendencies in V1 and more psychopathic tendencies in V2. But being a psychotherapist, let me back up abit and explain my views on why I think this way. By very general definition, a sociopath is just a person w/ an antisocial personality disorder. A psychopath is a person w/ an antisocial personality disorder that makes them act out in an aggressive, perverted, violent or amoral manner w/o empathy or remorse for their actions. In general, sociopaths control themselves better than psychopaths do and may take years to destroy selected targets. In general, psychopaths have poor impulse control, have violent outbursts and are more prone to violence than sociopaths are. So by that definition, and I'm not sure if this backs up Pippin's views totally, but from my professional POV, V2 is more flamboyant, more impulsively violent and more predatory in nature to live off others, yet always blaming others for their actions. The other reasons I think LV is more sociopathic than psychopathic is that sociopaths usually have a long history of juvinile deliquency; they will change themselves (or at least appear to do so) if they know it will keep them from being found out (as LV did at Hogwarts to fool the staff for example); and they will never take blame for anything they have done. Sociopaths have no room for love in their lives, and will "show" love and happiness only when it serves their cause, but these "feelings" shown are not genuine. However, one of the main reasons I didn't apply a real life label of psychopath to LV, especially V-1, was that psychopaths tend to try suicide (even if they rarely succeed, they still attempt suicide). And of course, LV had a distinct fear of death and went to drastic measures w/ the horcruxes to protect himself from death. Steve, who begs forgiveness for the psych 101 lecture, and hopes he hasn't muddied the waters even more...lol. pippin wrote: > > Kemper now: > > I don't see this as forgiveness. He needs his Death Eaters to be more powerful and scary. He rescues Bella because his other Death Eaters have been caught and so has lost supporters which make him less powerful and scary. It's calculating not forgiving which makes Harry's suggestion of remorse still laughable. > > > > Pippin: > Ah, but V2 isn't as calculating as V1. That was one of the big shocks in DH. We were expecting to find the WW in the hands of a cold, calculating supervillain, but V2 has impulse control problems that V1 never had. That, IMO, is because V2 has impulses that V1 never had. V2 throws tantrums like a two year old, not coincidentally because his moral sense is just exactly two years old. > > V1 never considered whether his victims deserved what they got. He handed out rewards and punishments to manipulate people, or because it amused him. He was going to feed Wormtail to Nagini to punish him for carelessness, but changed his mind when it turned out that Crouch's escape hadn't succeeded after all. Wormtail was in luck and Nagini was out of it. t Wormtail's carelessness was not any less because of that, but in V1's cosmos, people suffer because they are unlucky, not because they deserve to. > > But V2 is deliciously aware that Wormtail deserves pain for neglecting his master, even though Voldemort is no longer suffering from that neglect at the time. > > V2 wants to reward the DE's who went to Azkaban for him above all others (though their being there is certainly of no benefit to him). Most of all, he's aware as he kills Snape that Snape deserves better of him. Psychopaths don't think like that, IMO. > > Pippin > From bart at moosewise.com Sat Jan 2 18:44:27 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 13:44:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3F940B.3000703@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188693 SteveE wrote: > Steve replies: Putting real life personality disorder criteria on a fictional character is always really tricky, fun, but tricky. JKR can mix and match personality traits for LV as she deems necessary for plot and character development. Bart: But JKR can look up personality disorders as well as we can. As a matter of fact, Voldemort corresponds more to Dr. Robert Hare's Psychopathy Checklist than to the official textbook definitions (which don't recognize sociopathy or psychopathy as individual mental disorders, but as subsets of antisocial personality disorder). SteveE: > Like Pippin, I kind of see more sociopathic tendencies in V1 and more psychopathic tendencies in V2. But being a psychotherapist, let me back up abit and explain my views on why I think this way. > Bart: The late Dr. Isaac Asimov once did an interesting analysis on the controversy that William Shakespeare was not the actual author of the plays ascribed to him, but was a "front man" for some other prominent Elizabethan (Sir Francis Bacon is often the choice). What Asimov did was take a look at the scientific allusions in Shakespeare's plays, and the educational systems at the time, and found that the allusions were consistent with someone of Shakespeare's level of education, but inconsistent with someone of Bacon's or the other suspects' educations. The relevance here being that, when psychoanalyzing Morty, it's important to look at what JKR's probable level of knowledge on the subject is, rather than the knowledge of an expert (if this sounds familiar, I also used the Asimov story also when there was a discussion of the 4 Houses and the traditional 4 elements; that we had to base any analysis on JKR's knowledge, not on the knowledge of scholars in the subject). Bart From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 2 18:58:23 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 Jan 2010 18:58:23 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/3/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1262458703.10.38733.m5@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188694 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 3, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 2 minutes.) 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URL: From catlady at wicca.net Sat Jan 2 20:12:13 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 20:12:13 -0000 Subject: Chapter 17 discussion / A novel may know more than its author does Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188695 Megan Real discussed PS/SS Chapter 17 in : << it has been suggested (somewhere) that Quirrell should have been able to get the stone from the mirror, since he wanted it not for himself, but for Voldemort. What do you think? >> And it has already been answered that Quirrell would have seen himself giving the Stone to Voldemort, which counts as using the Stone. << In an alternate universe, if this book hadn't sold well, there might not have been any more published. If this had been a stand-alone book, with no sequels, would you have found it to be satisfying? >> Yes. Living as I do in this universe, I would not voluntarily move to one where I never met Remus and Sirius, but the stand-alone Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (in addition to having the best title ever) has a better moral that would not have been superseded by the series moral: "Nevertheless, Harry, while you may only have delayed his return to power, it will merely take someone else who is prepared to fight what seems a losing battle next time -- and if he is delayed again, and again, why, he may never return to power." Bart wrote in : << I also used the Asimov story also when there was a discussion of the 4 Houses and the traditional 4 elements; that we had to base any analysis on JKR's knowledge, not on the knowledge of scholars in the subject). >> Many styles of literary analysis believe that there is more in art object (story) than the artist (writer) put in it. Some think that the artist, in addition to all her conscious efforts and inspirations, has an unconscious connection that brings in stuff from a Muse or the Collective Unconscious or something. Some think it is the art object (story) rather than the artist (writer) who has this connection. So if a novel references science that that author never knew, even science that no one in the whole world knew until centuries after the author's death, pointing to this science in the novel is still a valid literary analysis. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Sat Jan 2 20:24:17 2010 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 20:24:17 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188696 > > Kemper now: > > I don't see this as forgiveness. He needs his Death Eaters to be more powerful and scary. He rescues Bella because his other Death Eaters have been caught and so has lost supporters which make him less powerful and scary. It's calculating not forgiving which makes Harry's suggestion of remorse still laughable. > > > > Pippin: > Ah, but V2 isn't as calculating as V1. That was one of the big shocks in DH. We were expecting to find the WW in the hands of a cold, calculating supervillain, but V2 has impulse control problems that V1 never had. Magpie: I don't see any big difference at all between V1 and V2--or even that there is a V1 and V2. He's just described as being a big bad guy who's unstoppable to make him scary. He's supposed to be just as scary now, he just naturally doesn't come across that way because Harry has to beat him. Did every single DE also change between the two wars? Because they're not half as scary or competent or in control of themselves as they were in the first war either. There is nothing in Voldemort's character as written that says he wasn't always a drama queen who would have loved rewarding people or keeping them around based on his own whims. Pippin: I don't have to make up Voldemort's past. We see quite a bit of it, in Diary!Riddle, in Gof prior to his rebirth, in the memories Dumbledore collected, and in the flashback in DH.The Voldemort of the past trusted no one, never got angry, felt no emotional connection to his Death Eaters, and left Quirrell to die when Quirrell failed him, though I see no reason Quirrell couldn't still have been as useful as Peter was. Magpie: Yes, you are making up his past in order to contrast it with things you're claiming are OOC for him. I'm not looking at the guy in any of those memories and not seeing the same guy as continued all the way through GoF. That he doesn't get angry when things are going well for him and he feels victorious does not make it OOC for him to get angry when things aren't going well for him and gets beaten by a baby. He shows not emotional connection to his DEs in the whole of the series. There's plenty of DEs that could have been as useful to him as Peter was post-GoF that Voldemort murders. He wouldn't be scary if he was that predictable. Sometimes he Crucios, sometimes he refrains, sometimes he kills, sometimes he doesn't. He always put on shows of people being his favorites, that's why they competed amongst themselves. It's why he would, even in the first war, do something like offer Lily the chance to live. -m From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jan 3 00:22:18 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 00:22:18 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188697 > > Magpie: > Yes, you are making up his past in order to contrast it with things you're claiming are OOC for him. I'm not looking at the guy in any of those memories and not seeing the same guy as continued all the way through GoF. That he doesn't get angry when things are going well for him and he feels victorious does not make it OOC for him to get angry when things aren't going well for him and gets beaten by a baby. Pippin: On his way to Godric's Hollow, Voldemort thinks that he's never angry, that anger is for lesser souls. It's not as if he's never been thwarted before. But when his plans didn't work out, he just changed them. Even as a baby, he didn't cry. After his rebirthing, he not only notes that he's getting quite sentimental, he tells Harry his true family is returning. Those statements struck me the very first time I read them because they didn't fit with the completely cold-blooded monster I thought Voldemort was supposed to be. So this change in Voldemort is not something I discovered after the fact. Magpie: He always put on shows of people being his favorites, that's why they competed amongst themselves. Pippin: True, but the reason that people become favorites changes. Quirrell is punished for his failures although he was completely loyal. But though the Lestranges failed to rescue their master, V2 feels they deserve a reward for their loyalty, and they are, in fact, restored to favor after their rescue from Azkaban. Wormtail, OTOH, succeeded, and yet he's to be punished, because he acted out only out of fear. It just seems to me that V2 has a different value system. Pippin From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 3 03:07:01 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 03:07:01 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <4B3EB917.2080506@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > However, one thing of interest I found while looking back; > someone reports that JKR said in an interview that the drop > of Harry's blood gave Morty a choice. I tried to find the > original but I have only found a couple of second-hand > references, no actual quote or specific interview. zanooda: Is Accio Quote reliable enough for you :-)? Here is their transcript of that interview: http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/0729-dateline-vieira.html The part about Harry's blood is at the very end. If the link doesn't work, here is this passage: MV: Why was it important to you, Jo, to write about the cruelty and inhumanity? JKR: I'm not sure why. But it was what I wanted to write about most. And it's about choice. And you are shown that Voldemort. Ummm... I suppose we're going to call him a psychopath. But he's so, in many ways, he is what he is and he's beyond redemption. Although this being Harry Potter and because I can take liberties because I have magic in my world, it is shown at the very end of the book that he did have a chance for redemption because he had taken into his body this-- this drop of hope or love-- MV: Harry's blood. JKR: Right. So that meant that if he could have mustered the courage to repent, he would have been okay. But, of course, he wouldn't. And that's his choice. > Bart wrote: > Now, if JKR says that Morty could repent, I'll put that in the same > file as Dumbledore being gay; interesting to see what was in JKR's > mind, but it's not present at all in the text. Agreed :-). zanooda, who doesn't want to consider JKR's interviews canon... From k12listmomma at comcast.net Sun Jan 3 08:38:55 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 01:38:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness References: <4B3EB917.2080506@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188699 > Now, if JKR says that Morty could repent, I'll put that in the same > file as Dumbledore being gay; interesting to see what was in JKR's mind, > but it's not present at all in the text. > > Bart But didn't in canon Dumbledore say something in a conversation to Harry about "it's our choices that make us what we are" in an earlier book? Clearly, young Riddle was not a psychopath, was he? I don't see in the books where the student Tom Riddle (preHorcrux) was anything but a normal child. Instead, he made a conscience decision to learn about, study and research Horcruxes, and made a conscience effort to apply that knowledge to achieve his goal. He murdered because it was a step to get what he wanted with the Horcruxes, and he considered the deaths a "necessary ingredient", the same way that he just expected Wormtail to just lob off his own arm for his regeneration potion in the graveyard. I don't see an illness where Voldemort is just excused because he's mentally ill- I see a Voldemort who is reaping the rewards of having made Horcruxes- a conscience decision to rip his own soul. That is where forgiveness can come in, because he could be sorry he made those bad choices in life. There could have been, in canon, a part of his soul left of the original young Tom Riddle, a part of him left from before all those murders and crimes against humanity. He could have been sorry he murdered his father, or someone in the long list of people he killed. He could have been sorry he killed a young mother, the innocent kids on his way the to Potter house, any number of innocent bystanders whom he hadn't intended to kill. Any tiny shred of remorse would have been a step forward...and forgiveness has to at least offer it, even if it is refused and salvation is not to be realized because the condemned refuses to the very end to repent or accept that forgiveness. Shelley From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Jan 3 17:31:26 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 17:31:26 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "k12listmomma" wrote: > > > Now, if JKR says that Morty could repent, I'll put that in the same > > file as Dumbledore being gay; interesting to see what was in JKR's mind, > > but it's not present at all in the text. > > > > Bart > > > But didn't in canon Dumbledore say something in a conversation to Harry > about "it's our choices that make us what we are" in an earlier book? Geoff: Indeed yes.. This is the famous and oft-quoted (certainly by me!) canon: '..."Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor. You know why that was. Think." "It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, "because I asked not to go in Slytherin..." "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."' (COS "Dobby's Reward" p.245 UK edition) From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 3 18:36:42 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 3 Jan 2010 18:36:42 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/3/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1262543802.554.49494.m14@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188701 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 3, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bart at moosewise.com Sun Jan 3 19:38:58 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 14:38:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B40F252.6040907@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188702 Geoff wrote: > Indeed yes.. This is the famous and oft-quoted (certainly by > me!) canon: > > '..."Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor. You know why > that was. Think." > > "It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, > "because I asked not to go in Slytherin..." > > "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes > you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that > show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."' > Bart: Here is the problem. The question is whether or not Voldemort was capable of making a choice. JKR wrote him as a sociopath/psychopath, who, at least in the real world, does not have a choice, at least not one to repent. It's sort of like a blind person, who may have all sorts of information about the color "red", but can never truly experience it. A sociopath/psychopath sees other people not as people like him or herself, but like pieces in a game. Can you truly feel repentance for a character in a videogame that you "kill"? Now, JKR has said that, in the new body, Morty DOES have the capability to repent, due to a drop of Harry's blood being in the body. Even if that were possible without a lot of other effects showing up on Morty, let's go back to the blind person again. Someone who is born blind, if they suddenly got the ability to see, would not have the pathways in their brain to be able to interpret signals. So, even if Morty was given the ability to interact with his soul, after a lifetime of being cut off, he almost certainly could not even interpret the new signals he was getting. One of the key elements of writing fantasy is that, outside of the fantastic elements, everything else needs to be realistic. If you put someone in front of a firing squad, and say that if everybody misses, then they can go free, then they have a chance of going free. So, I guess since JKR says that Morty had a choice, he DID have a choice. But it wasn't a realistic one, and it certainly was not made clear to the reader that he had one. Bart From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jan 3 20:42:42 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 20:42:42 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188703 Bart wrote in : << Here is the problem. The question is whether or not Voldemort was capable of making a choice. JKR wrote him as a sociopath/psychopath, who, at least in the real world, does not have a choice, at least not one to repent. >> k12listmomma wrote in : << Clearly, young Riddle was not a psychopath, was he? I don't see in the books where the student Tom Riddle (preHorcrux) was anything but a normal child. >> I truly believe that Rowling intended to show the child Tom Riddle as abnormal. HBP chapter 13, The Secret Riddle. Mrs Cole at the orphanage says "He's a funny boy." "He was a funny baby too. He hardly ever cried, you know. And then, when he got a little older, he was. . . odd." "He scares the other children." "There have been incidents. . . . Nasty things ..." "Billy Stubbs's rabbit. . . well, Tom said he didn't do it and I don't see how he could have done, but even so, it didn't hang itself from the rafters, did it?" "But I'm jiggered if I know how he got up there to do it. All I know is he and Billy had argued the day before. And then" ? Mrs. Cole took another swig of gin, slopping a little over her chin this time ? "on the summer outing ? we take them out, you know, once a year, to the countryside or to the seaside ? well, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop were never quite right afterwards, and all we ever got out of them was that they'd gone into a cave with Tom Riddle. He swore they'd just gone exploring, but something happened in there, I'm sure of it. And, well, there have been a lot of things, funny things. . . ." Geoff quoted in : > "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes > you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that > show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."' But listies have always pointed out that Dumbledore said "show" what we truly are, not "make us" what we truly are. It may have been Tom Riddle's choices that made him a monster or it may have been Tom Riddle's inexorable fate to be a monster, but either way it is true that his choices SHOWED he was a monster. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Sun Jan 3 21:15:49 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 14:15:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness References: Message-ID: <241B7CDB5EB0419CA4A27F7D5D8360C1@homemain> No: HPFGUIDX 188704 k12listmomma wrote in : << Clearly, young Riddle was not a psychopath, was he? I don't see in the books where the student Tom Riddle (preHorcrux) was anything but a normal child. >> From: "Catlady (Rita Prince" I truly believe that Rowling intended to show the child Tom Riddle as abnormal. HBP chapter 13, The Secret Riddle. Mrs Cole at the orphanage says "He's a funny boy." "He was a funny baby too. He hardly ever cried, you know. And then, when he got a little older, he was. . . odd." "He scares the other children." "There have been incidents. . . . Nasty things ..." "Billy Stubbs's rabbit. . . well, Tom said he didn't do it and I don't see how he could have done, but even so, it didn't hang itself from the rafters, did it?" "But I'm jiggered if I know how he got up there to do it. All I know is he and Billy had argued the day before. And then" - Mrs. Cole took another swig of gin, slopping a little over her chin this time - "on the summer outing - we take them out, you know, once a year, to the countryside or to the seaside - well, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop were never quite right afterwards, and all we ever got out of them was that they'd gone into a cave with Tom Riddle. He swore they'd just gone exploring, but something happened in there, I'm sure of it. And, well, there have been a lot of things, funny things. . . ." Shelley again: But does that show him as abnormal, or just as a wizard? He scares other children....he used his wizarding abilities to be a bully. The magic itself would be enough to scare the other children. Moving an animal around, moving rope around to strangle an animal, that would scare the children, because rope and animals can't move by themselves the way they must have when he worked magic on them. I will give you this: the murder of the animal is the most telling of any incident- the killing without remorse. His first recorded murder. Still, the murder of an animal, the actions of a bully, are still a conscience choice one makes. I don't buy the line of a psychopath being unable to feel sorry for the things he has done. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Sun Jan 3 21:36:15 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 14:36:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness References: Message-ID: <8D3F2BE52AE8451BB6FA9AE021B6F977@homemain> No: HPFGUIDX 188705 Bart wrote in : << Here is the problem. The question is whether or not Voldemort was capable of making a choice. JKR wrote him as a sociopath/psychopath, who, at least in the real world, does not have a choice, at least not one to repent. >> k12listmomma wrote in : << Clearly, young Riddle was not a psychopath, was he? I don't see in the books where the student Tom Riddle (preHorcrux) was anything but a normal child. >> I truly believe that Rowling intended to show the child Tom Riddle as abnormal. HBP chapter 13, The Secret Riddle. Mrs Cole at the orphanage says "He's a funny boy." "He was a funny baby too. He hardly ever cried, you know. And then, when he got a little older, he was. . . odd." "He scares the other children." "There have been incidents. . . . Nasty things ..." "Billy Stubbs's rabbit. . . well, Tom said he didn't do it and I don't see how he could have done, but even so, it didn't hang itself from the rafters, did it?" "But I'm jiggered if I know how he got up there to do it. All I know is he and Billy had argued the day before. And then" - Mrs. Cole took another swig of gin, slopping a little over her chin this time - "on the summer outing - we take them out, you know, once a year, to the countryside or to the seaside - well, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop were never quite right afterwards, and all we ever got out of them was that they'd gone into a cave with Tom Riddle. He swore they'd just gone exploring, but something happened in there, I'm sure of it. And, well, there have been a lot of things, funny things. . . ." Geoff quoted in : > "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes > you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that > show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."' But listies have always pointed out that Dumbledore said "show" what we truly are, not "make us" what we truly are. It may have been Tom Riddle's choices that made him a monster or it may have been Tom Riddle's inexorable fate to be a monster, but either way it is true that his choices SHOWED he was a monster. Shelley: I'm going to add in another thought, one that I had originally intended to convey. The orphanage incident shows Riddle's first murder of an animal, but at Hogwarts, again preHorcrux, he refrained from being a bully, controlled himself and did not commit murder. He was shown as having the respect of teachers and students alike. He attended social functions as part of the Slug Club, and people aren't saying the same things of Riddle as Mrs. Cole describes of the younger child without magical training. Doesn't this show, contrary to the mental illness claim of one not being able to make choices, a clear indicator that he was capable of self-restraint and good behavior, of making good choices? They were not calling young Tom Riddle, Hogwarts student, a pyshopath. Instead people were shocked when he decided to go down this path, based on the student they knew at Hogwarts. Whatever the change ripping one's soul makes, I still say that most of the ill effects we see in Voldemort is a direct result of that decision to make Horcruxes, and not from a pre-existing mental illness that would have been impossible to hide from age 12 to age 17. If he had a choice to control his actions in those 5 years, what would have taken away that ability to make a choice to repent later on? I still think they were possible, even for a monster that Voldemort chose to become. From bart at moosewise.com Sun Jan 3 21:39:37 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:39:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <241B7CDB5EB0419CA4A27F7D5D8360C1@homemain> References: <241B7CDB5EB0419CA4A27F7D5D8360C1@homemain> Message-ID: <4B410E99.30404@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188706 k12listmomma wrote: > I will give you this: the murder of the animal is the most telling of any > incident- the killing without remorse. His first recorded murder. Still, the > murder of an animal, the actions of a bully, are still a conscience choice > one makes. I don't buy the line of a psychopath being unable to feel sorry > for the things he has done. > Bart: OK, here's Hare's Checklist: Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive Narcissism" * Glibness/superficial charm * Grandiose sense of self-worth * Pathological lying * Conning/manipulative * Lack of remorse or guilt * Shallow affect * Callous/lack of empathy * Failure to accept responsibility for own actions I would say that Morty and young Riddle exhibit all of the above; it might be an interesting project to go through the canon and find specific references; is there a decent concordance available, by the way? Now, for factor 2, Case History, "Socially Deviant Lifestyle". Not quite as clearcut, but close: * Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom (note by Bart: could have been caused by a lack of a body) * Parasitic lifestyle * Poor behavioral control (note by Bart: other literature points out that they hide it very well) * Promiscuous sexual behavior (note by Bart: as far as one can tell from canon, nobody has sex in the WW; children might well be produced by spells. Well, it's hinted that Arthur and Molly might have sex.). * Lack of realistic, long-term goals (Bart: Note the word, "realistic"). * Impulsivity * Irresponsibility * Juvenile delinquency * Early behavior problems * Revocation of conditional release Finally, let's look at the final two traits: Traits not correlated with either factor * Many short-term marital relationships (Bart: OK, that didn't happen as far as we know) * Criminal versatility What happened, not unlike what happened with Adolph Hitler, was that Morty found a bunch of people who would actually go along with his mental illness, which enabled him to continue where most psychopaths stick to smaller, more personal crimes. Bart From bart at moosewise.com Sun Jan 3 22:03:47 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 17:03:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <8D3F2BE52AE8451BB6FA9AE021B6F977@homemain> References: <8D3F2BE52AE8451BB6FA9AE021B6F977@homemain> Message-ID: <4B411443.30808@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188707 Shelley: > I'm going to add in another thought, one that I had originally intended to > convey. The orphanage incident shows Riddle's first murder of an animal, but > at Hogwarts, again preHorcrux, he refrained from being a bully, controlled > himself and did not commit murder. Bart: Moaning Myrtle might have an issue with that statement. Bart From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sun Jan 3 22:20:09 2010 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 22:20:09 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets ch. 1, The Worst Birthday Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188708 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist (to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space) CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and The Chamber of Secrets Chapter 1: The Worst Birthday 31 July 1992. It is Harry Potter's twelfth birthday and it is shaping up to be the worst birthday for him. Since the end of school the month before he has not heard from his friends, Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger. His Uncle Vernon padlocked Hedwig's cage so he has not been able to contact them. All of his magical school supplies are locked in the cupboard under the stairs so he isn't able to do his summer work. Worst of all, his uncle is expecting an important client for dinner so Harry is instructed to stay in his room that night, "making no noise and pretending I'm not there." Harry is sent outside so Petunia can clean and prepare for the Masons' arrival. Harry rests in the garden where he notices a pair of bright green eyes staring at him from the hedge. Just then, Dudley comes along to taunt Harry that his birthday was forgotten. Harry taunts Dudley with some bogus magical words. Dudley tells Aunt Petunia and Harry is put to work for the rest of the day. Harry is sent to his room minutes before the Masons arrive. He plans to collapse on his bed but there is already someone there. 1. In this chapter Harry reminds Dudley to say please by asking him to "say the magic word." Vernon goes beyond anger and into CAPSLOCK. Referring to "please" as a "magic word" is common but Vernon doesn't seem to know this. Was he really upset over the use of the word or was it another excuse to yell at Harry? 2. It seems that Harry is always doing the work at the Dursleys' but today Vernon banishes him from the house so Petunia can clean. Why did you think Vernon did this? 3. Harry is bored before he sees the eyes in the bushes. He wishes he could hear from any witch or wizard, even from Draco Malfoy. The chapter ends with someone on Harry's bed. Who did you think it might have been? 4. Who, or what, did you think the eyes in the bushes belonged to? 5. Neither Ron nor Hermione has contacted Harry in a month. Before you found out the reason why they didn't, what did you think? 6. The Dursleys have a valid reason for Petunia's nephew living with them. He has gone to school so it is no secret in the neighborhood. Why would they try and hide Harry from the Masons? 7. Add your own questions or observations. NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsdatabase?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 2, Dobby's Warning, on January 10, 2010. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). Ceridwen Keeley. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Jan 3 23:29:29 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 23:29:29 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince" wrote: Geoff quoted: > > "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes > > you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that > > show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."' > But listies have always pointed out that Dumbledore said "show" what we truly are, not "make us" what we truly are. Geoff: Yes, but I think the people pointing this out are merely quibbling over semantics. If you "show" what you truly are, then you are demonstrating the choices you *have* made in the past. Our choices always have an impact on what we are: the friends we have, the food we eat, the books we read, the career we follow, the person we marry... the list is endless. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 3 23:30:33 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 23:30:33 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets ch. 1, The Worst Birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188710 > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and The Chamber of Secrets Chapter 1: The Worst Birthday > 1. In this chapter Harry reminds Dudley to say please by asking him to "say the magic word." Vernon goes beyond anger and into CAPSLOCK. Referring to "please" as a "magic word" is common but Vernon doesn't seem to know this. Was he really upset over the use of the word or was it another excuse to yell at Harry? Carol responds: Interesting question. Since Harry, who is almost isolated from other people except at school, has heard this expression, Uncle Vernon has surely heard it, too. I don't suppose he's more than forty or so, if that, and most likely has not forgotten his childhood--though possibly his family didn't say "please" and "thank you." I think that he's willfully misunderstanding the word, allowing the word "magic" to set him off like a firecracker. He really does hate magic. OTOH, he also seems to enjoy yelling at Harry on the pretext that it's good for Harry. A bit of both, I suppose. > > 2. It seems that Harry is always doing the work at the Dursleys' but today Vernon banishes him from the house so Petunia can clean. Why did you think Vernon did this? Carol: I don't think that Harry cleans Aunt Petunia's precious kitchen. He only cooks and does a few other chores unless he's being punished, as in OoP. Vernon wants to make a good impression, and Petunia's almost fanatical cleanliness is much more likely to do that than Harry's hit-and-miss, half-hearted efforts. > > 3. Harry is bored before he sees the eyes in the bushes. He wishes he could hear from any witch or wizard, even from Draco Malfoy. The chapter ends with someone on Harry's bed. Who did you think it might have been? Carol: I really don't remember, but I certainly wasn't expecting a sickeningly submissive Gollum rip-off, which was my first impression of Dobby. (Needless to say, I like him better after DH. Still hate the movie version, though.) > > 4. Who, or what, did you think the eyes in the bushes belonged to? Carol: Again, no clue. Maybe a cat since they were round and green--or Harry's imagination. It's difficult if not impossible to recall my first reaction after so many readings. > > 5. Neither Ron nor Hermione has contacted Harry in a month. Before you found out the reason why they didn't, what did you think? Carol: Maybe Vernon or Petunia hid the letters? Then, again, I wouldn't have put it past Ron not to write. Most twelve-year-old boys (or girls) in the late twentieth century never developed the habit of letter writing. (It's even worse today.) > > 6. The Dursleys have a valid reason for Petunia's nephew living with them. He has gone to school so it is no secret in the neighborhood. Why would they try and hide Harry from the Masons? Carol: They can't hide him from the neighbors, but the Masons are casual acquaintances who aren't likely to visit again and whom the Dursleys are trying to impress. They're probably afraid that he'll say something to embarrass them (he didn't know about Hogwarts or wizards when he went to school). Possibly, they're also subliminally ashamed of the way they dress and treat him and don't want the Masons to know that they have a Cinderella nephew living with them who's forced to wear Dudley's old clothes. Maybe they're also afraid of accidental magic (he's turned a teacher's wig blue). Whatever it is, they're afraid that he'll somehow lose them that contract--and they're right, though, of course, the pudding incident isn't Harry's fault. Carol, trying to get back into HP mode now that Christmas is all but over (it's the tenth day, if my count is correct) From iam.kemper at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 00:24:48 2010 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 00:24:48 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <8D3F2BE52AE8451BB6FA9AE021B6F977@homemain> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188711 > Shelley: > ...snip... Doesn't this show, contrary to the mental illness claim of one not being able to make choices, a clear indicator that he was capable of self-restraint and good behavior, of making good choices? > ...snip... If he had a choice to control his actions in those 5 years, what would have taken away that ability to make a choice to repent later on? Kemper now: He did show self-restraint except for that one time when he was playing with the basilisk. But I get your meaning. He presented well. But I think you might want to consider what his motives were for displaying socially acceptable behavior. The two possible motives we see for this are: 1. to deflect suspicion for negative bx (Basilisk, the Riddle murders) 2. to gain trust to gain information (horcrux) Controlling one's actions does not make one able to repent. Reflecting on one's actions does. And we don't see that with Voldemort. Kemper From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Mon Jan 4 03:09:07 2010 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 03:09:07 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets ch. 1, The Worst Birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188712 Ceridwen: > NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsdatabase?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Ceridwen: The link doesn't seem to be working the way I originally posted it. Try this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Jan 4 07:31:32 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:31:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets ch. 1, The Worst Birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" wrote: Ceridwen: > > NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsdatabase?method=reportRows&tbl=33 > Ceridwen: > The link doesn't seem to be working the way I originally posted it. Try this one: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Geoff: That's working OK. The forward slash seemed to have disappeared in the first one. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Mon Jan 4 10:35:49 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 03:35:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness References: <8D3F2BE52AE8451BB6FA9AE021B6F977@homemain> <4B411443.30808@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <7BBBB238A03247C2951ED10FA4223DDE@homemain> No: HPFGUIDX 188714 > Shelley: >> I'm going to add in another thought, one that I had originally intended >> to >> convey. The orphanage incident shows Riddle's first murder of an animal, >> but >> at Hogwarts, again preHorcrux, he refrained from being a bully, >> controlled >> himself and did not commit murder. > > Bart: > Moaning Myrtle might have an issue with that statement. Shelley again: But you are overlooking my point- 5 years is a long time not to show the symptoms of the disease....discovering the history of Hogwarts and the secret chambers that already existed before Riddle was even born was not necessarily the mark of a psychopath, is it? Could they be the actions of the Slytherin who bought into the pure blood extremism, and the actions of one who had the gift of talking to snakes by being an Heir? The mark of a gifted child who was persistent at digging into connections? (trying to find out who his relatives were and why he could speak Parceltongue?) But who's to say where pure-blood extremist actions would end and actual mental illness begins? (For that matter, was Slytherin mentally ill- he made the chamber for the Basilisk- Riddle merely set free the creature that lay within!) What would make Riddle different from the others that might have murdered or directly harmed those who were not of pure blood? (My point, at this point in time of Riddle's life, I don't think he is any different from Slytherin, and that neither were mentally ill, no matter what ill wishes they had for Mudbloods.) Here's some quotes (from the Harry Potter Lexicon) I see as supporting the gap in behavior, from the Orphan!Riddle description of being an odd boy who terrorized the other kids to the man who became Voldemort. The gap, as I see it, is a student at Hogwarts (for his first 5 years, at any rate) who could, and did, make an effort to behave himself and be a good student. Riddle was a Prefect, won a medal for Magical Merit, gained a gold shield-shaped award for "Special Services to Hogwarts", and was Head Boy. Clearly, people thought well of this boy, and didn't describe him as having a mental illness or obvious defect at all. According to Dumbledore, "He was one of the most brilliant students Hogwarts has ever seen" (CS18). Dumbledore to Harry: "He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable." (CS18) (meaning, something had drastically changed- he was not the boy who they all knew from school) Voldemort speaking: "I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself. Aaah ... pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost ... but still, I was alive. What I was, even I do not know ... I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments worked ... for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it. Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive..." (GF33) (Voldemort mentions "my experiments, my goal to conquer death"- those goals and experiments alone do not mark one as having a mental illness- for Nicholas Flemmel, as did many others, sought immortality through the Sorcerer's Stone and horcurxes, since Voldemort was able to read about both in books at Hogwarts and even ask a teacher about them, so common was the subject of seeking immortality. Even the trio read about immortality (indirectly) on Chocolate Frog cards. I still venture that it might have been those experiments, those transformation while seeking and performing the Dark Arts, that lead to the behavior that we are calling mental illness. But my distinction would be not that he was always mentally ill, but rather as a side effect of working Dark Arts and therefore he could make a choice to venture off of it, the same way that Flemmel chose to give up his immortality by giving up control of the Sorcerer Stone.) Also, his looks. In school, at 16-years of age: jet black hair (CS13); "tall, black-haired boy" (CS17); "handsome" (CS18); "dark" eyes (HBP). But later,when Voldemort visited Dumbledore about 10 years after leaving school, he was no longer handsome. His deathly pale face looked "waxy and oddly distorted, and the whites of the eyes now had a permanently bloody look." (HBP20) It's my supposition that the outward changes in physical appearance mirror the destruction of the inner person as well, and that the more he dove into the Dark Arts and tearing apart his soul, the more his outward behavior matched that of a psychopath/sociopath (which every one you are choosing that seems to fit). The distinction, again as I see it, is that he wasn't always ill, but rather the illness was of his own choosing and making, and was a path he could have indeed chosen to walk away from, or not to continue towards. It's possible, that in the same way Dark Magic can create the illusion of a mental illness in a person who's drowning in it, the infusion of magically pure blood (Harry's) could create a magical window for redemption. After all, none of really know how the magical healers worked their magic in the series, since it's different than our modern treatments. I take that the potions being different for the Polymorph, reflecting the essence of the person (Harry was gold, Crab or Goyle tasted like bogies?) reflects the notion of just "who's" blood or body part you are using makes a whopper of a difference in outcome of the potion or spell you are working. So it makes sense to me that Harry's blood (touched and protected by love) would change Voldemort in a way he didn't predict, making redemption a possibility, even if Voldemort had never considered it before. Kemper now: He did show self-restraint except for that one time when he was playing with the basilisk. But I get your meaning. He presented well. But I think you might want to consider what his motives were for displaying socially acceptable behavior. The two possible motives we see for this are: 1. to deflect suspicion for negative bx (Basilisk, the Riddle murders) 2. to gain trust to gain information (horcrux) Time frame- last year at Hogwarts, for the Horcruxes, Riddle murders. Clearly, playing the "good boy" would help to deflect suspicion of his connection with the Basilisk, but there still is that gap from his entry into Hogwarts until he sets the beast free (he said it took him 5 years to discover all those secrets) that is too long of a period to say that he had some pressing ulterior motive for "behaving". Shelley From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jan 4 14:29:30 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 14:29:30 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets ch. 1, The Worst Birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188715 > > 1. In this chapter Harry reminds Dudley to say please by asking him to "say the magic word." Vernon goes beyond anger and into CAPSLOCK. Referring to "please" as a "magic word" is common but Vernon doesn't seem to know this. Was he really upset over the use of the word or was it another excuse to yell at Harry? Potioncat: This was a very humorous Vernon-over-the-top moment. I think Vernon and Petunia are hyper-sensitive to any referernce to magic and would have reacted--at least with a flicker of emotion-- had anyone said "magic word". Had it been anyone other than Harry, Vernon would have realised that "please" was intended and let it go--but this was Harry speaking so he went directly to CAPSLOCK. > ? > > 3. Harry is bored before he sees the eyes in the bushes. He wishes he could hear from any witch or wizard, even from Draco Malfoy. The chapter ends with someone on Harry's bed. Who did you think it might have been? Potioncat: The first time, I'm sure I was too busy turning the page to even wonder--but I would expect it to be a stranger, just because of the wording, and a magical stranger because of what had happened earlier. > > 4. Who, or what, did you think the eyes in the bushes belonged to? Potioncat: I was as curious as Harry, and also delighted that the books were still surprising and we didn't know everything about the WW yet. (or maybe we still don't!) > > 5. Neither Ron nor Hermione has contacted Harry in a month. Before you found out the reason why they didn't, what did you think? Potioncat: I'm not sure what I thought--that somehow their letters weren't getting through, or maybe I wasn't expecting kids to write letters at all. Because at one point I was surprised that Ron and Harry would write letters. I didn't think kids in the RW really would and found it a little difficult to believe. Since then I've to understand that RW kids are *always* writing each other via TEXT messages IMs and Facebook. > > 6. The Dursleys have a valid reason for Petunia's nephew living with them. He has gone to school so it is no secret in the neighborhood. Why would they try and hide Harry from the Masons? Potioncat: As someone else said, the Masons didn't have to know about Harry. Vernon wanted to showcase his family and to his mind, Harry isn't a part of the family. > Thanks for the interesting questions. From winterfell7 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 4 18:12:54 2010 From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:12:54 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <4B410E99.30404@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188716 Steve replies: Just because you bring out an online checklist of possible symptoms for a mental illness diagnosis doesn't mean a person has that mental illness if they have some or even to some extent all of those symptoms. The authoritative "checklist" if you will is the DSM-IV codes. Psychologists and psychiatrists use DSM-IV codes as guidelines for diagnosis and to justify institutionalization and use of medication. Also, the DSM-IV codes for example for antisocial personality disorder (where we get sociopathic and pschopathic categories of diagnosis) specifically say that these criteria must constitute a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occuring since age 18. So LV's behavior as a child and while at Hogwarts wouldn't constitute a legal diagnosis of psychosis or serious mental illness. It wouldn't have been until after he was an adult that such lables could be legally (in a muggle society) be applied. There are always exceptions I suppose for extreme cases, but you get the point I'm making. It's repetitive abnormal behavior that starts out w/ conscious choices that form patterns of behaviour that can result in mental illness. Once LV left Hogwarts and got deeply into dark magic and his behavior became habitual to the extent that he couldn't change that behavior even if he wanted to,(which he consciously didn't) then it can be categorized as a mental illness and you can use whatever checklist you want to try and pin down exactly what kind of mental illness he had. (As long as you keep in mind that these checklist rules must have a pervasive pattern to them over a long period of time and continue after the age of 18). One last point here. When you repeat antisocial behavior over and over again it becomes the norm and the subconsious mind accepts it as such. Even if a person becomes mentally ill, they still are able at times to make conscious choices about how they are going to behave. At some point in time, however, if a mental illness becomes severe enough, those rational concious choices occur rarely and when they do, they are overruled by irrational subconscious factors reinforced by years of repetitive psychotic behaviour. Then in essence, the mental illness is so strong that conscious choices for rational or normal behaviour are very weak compared to the irrational choices now commanded by the subconsious mind. Eventually w/ seriously mental illness, the rational choices disappear altogether and only the irrational remains. Onve LV became mentally ill, he was so far gone that he's not going to change, IMO, even after he got Harry's blood. Although he then gained the possibility of remorse, his patterns of abnormal and antisocial behavior were so entrenched that it would be highly unlikely he would repent and show remorse. And also, it was LV's grand plan to obtain total power in the WW. Showing remorse and repenting would have certainly been ran counter to that. > Bart: > OK, here's Hare's Checklist: > > Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive Narcissism" > * Glibness/superficial charm > * Grandiose sense of self-worth > * Pathological lying > * Conning/manipulative > * Lack of remorse or guilt > * Shallow affect > * Callous/lack of empathy > * Failure to accept responsibility for own actions > > I would say that Morty and young Riddle exhibit all of the above; it > might be an interesting project to go through the canon and find > specific references; is there a decent concordance available, by the way? > > Now, for factor 2, Case History, "Socially Deviant Lifestyle". Not quite > as clearcut, but close: > > * Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom (note by Bart: could > have been caused by a lack of a body) > * Parasitic lifestyle > * Poor behavioral control (note by Bart: other literature points out > that they hide it very well) > * Promiscuous sexual behavior (note by Bart: as far as one can tell > from canon, nobody has sex in the WW; children might well be produced by > spells. Well, it's hinted that Arthur and Molly might have sex.). > * Lack of realistic, long-term goals (Bart: Note the word, > "realistic"). > * Impulsivity > * Irresponsibility > * Juvenile delinquency > * Early behavior problems > * Revocation of conditional release > > Finally, let's look at the final two traits: > Traits not correlated with either factor > > * Many short-term marital relationships (Bart: OK, that didn't > happen as far as we know) > * Criminal versatility > > What happened, not unlike what happened with Adolph Hitler, was that > Morty found a bunch of people who would actually go along with his > mental illness, which enabled him to continue where most psychopaths > stick to smaller, more personal crimes. > > Bart > From bart at moosewise.com Mon Jan 4 18:33:58 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:33:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <7BBBB238A03247C2951ED10FA4223DDE@homemain> References: <8D3F2BE52AE8451BB6FA9AE021B6F977@homemain> <4B411443.30808@moosewise.com> <7BBBB238A03247C2951ED10FA4223DDE@homemain> Message-ID: <4B423496.7010503@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188717 Shelley: > But you are overlooking my point- 5 years is a long time not to show the > symptoms of the disease....discovering the history of Hogwarts and the > secret chambers that already existed before Riddle was even born was not > necessarily the mark of a psychopath, is it? Could they be the actions of > the Slytherin who bought into the pure blood extremism, and the actions of > one who had the gift of talking to snakes by being an Heir? Bart: Actually, no. There is an error in writing fiction, one which JKR is seldom, if ever, guilty of, where the writer thinks of the characters as pieces in a game rather than people. A character performing a certain action might further the plot, but the action does not make sense from the internal point of view of the character (the case where I believe JKR comes the closest is Harry forgetting about the magic mirror for communicating with Sirius; she gives a bit of an excuse for Harry, that he wasn't paying close attention when Sirius handed it to him, but gives no excuse as to why Sirius doesn't think of it and remind Harry). In addition, one characteristic of the sociopath/psychopath is that, when caught and punished, they become more adept at hiding their condition. Which fits in with Dumbledore seeing through young Riddle and requiring that he make amends. What you say makes sense unless you consider Riddle as a thinking, reasoning being. And you ask yourself what sort of person could do such a thing in real life. And, frankly, that person comes out as a sociopath/psychopath (that's a technique I learned from the British writer/philosopher, Gilbert Chesterton). Shelley: > But who's > to say where pure-blood extremist actions would end and actual mental > illness begins? Bart: If it were a borderline case, a trained psychologist or psychiatrist. But Riddle was hardly a borderline case. Shelley: > (For that matter, was Slytherin mentally ill- he made the > chamber for the Basilisk- Riddle merely set free the creature that lay > within!) What would make Riddle different from the others that might have > murdered or directly harmed those who were not of pure blood? Bart: Slytherin may well have been mentally ill; we have no idea what his intentions for the basilisk were. However, Riddle didn't just set it free; he had it kill a fellow student, just as a test to see if it worked. And he was ready to send an innocent to Azkaban because it would facilitate his vacation plans. Bart From winterfell7 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 4 18:45:20 2010 From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:45:20 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <7BBBB238A03247C2951ED10FA4223DDE@homemain> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188718 K12listmomma at ...> wrote: > > > Shelley: > >> I'm going to add in another thought, one that I had originally intended > >> to > >> convey. The orphanage incident shows Riddle's first murder of an animal, > >> but > >> at Hogwarts, again preHorcrux, he refrained from being a bully, > >> controlled > >> himself and did not commit murder. > > > > Bart: > > Moaning Myrtle might have an issue with that statement. > > Shelley again: > But you are overlooking my point- 5 years is a long time not to show the > symptoms of the disease....discovering the history of Hogwarts and the > secret chambers that already existed before Riddle was even born was not > necessarily the mark of a psychopath, is it? Could they be the actions of > the Slytherin who bought into the pure blood extremism, and the actions of > one who had the gift of talking to snakes by being an Heir? The mark of a > gifted child who was persistent at digging into connections? (trying to find > out who his relatives were and why he could speak Parceltongue?) But who's > to say where pure-blood extremist actions would end and actual mental > illness begins? (For that matter, was Slytherin mentally ill- he made the > chamber for the Basilisk- Riddle merely set free the creature that lay > within!) What would make Riddle different from the others that might have > murdered or directly harmed those who were not of pure blood? (My point, at > this point in time of Riddle's life, I don't think he is any different from > Slytherin, and that neither were mentally ill, no matter what ill wishes > they had for Mudbloods.) Steve replies: I agree with you on this point Shelley. At that time LV wasn't LV, he was a teen age Tom Riddle. And, he wasn't yet mentally ill to the extent of, say being sociopathic w/ occasional violent psychopathic tendencies. It wasn't until after leaving Hogwarts that LV really becomes twisted and mentally ill, perhaps partly due to his immersion into the dark arts. And it's only after a repetitive history of this kinds of seriously abnormal behavioral choices that someone truly becomes psychotic. Riddle's summoning the basilisk which resulted in Moaning Myrtle's demise was a conscious choice, a means to a specific end (I don't remember if the basilisk killed her because Tom told it to or just because she happened to be in the way). I don't believe you could blame mental illness for his actions there, however, as he wasn't (at least according to DSM-IV guidelines, being less than 18 years old) mentally ill at that age. Riddle's torturing and killing animals and his abuse of the orphanage children is vicious and antisocial violent behavior to be sure, but at that age and w/ it not yet being an overwhelmingly present and pervasive pattern of behavior, it still doesn't qualify Tom Riddle for being accurately labled mentally ill. As to whether or not Slytherin was mentally ill...I don't know. Perhaps, perhaps not. But just building the chamber wouldn't make him mentally ill. Only a pervasive pattern of irrational or abnormal or otherwise mentally unstable behavior makes you eligible for being possibly diagnosed as mentally ill. With Slytherin, it simply sounds like it was a conscious choice he made to construct the Chamber of Secrets for as you said to accomplish his pure blood extremist agenda. Without knowing Slytherin better, I couldn't say to what extent he became mentally ill. From winterfell7 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 4 18:51:51 2010 From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:51:51 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <4B423496.7010503@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188719 Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Shelley: > > But you are overlooking my point- 5 years is a long time not to show the > > symptoms of the disease....discovering the history of Hogwarts and the > > secret chambers that already existed before Riddle was even born was not > > necessarily the mark of a psychopath, is it? Could they be the actions of > > the Slytherin who bought into the pure blood extremism, and the actions of > > one who had the gift of talking to snakes by being an Heir? > > Bart: > Actually, no. There is an error in writing fiction, one which JKR is > seldom, if ever, guilty of, where the writer thinks of the characters as > pieces in a game rather than people. A character performing a certain > action might further the plot, but the action does not make sense from > the internal point of view of the character (the case where I believe > JKR comes the closest is Harry forgetting about the magic mirror for > communicating with Sirius; she gives a bit of an excuse for Harry, that > he wasn't paying close attention when Sirius handed it to him, but gives > no excuse as to why Sirius doesn't think of it and remind Harry). > > In addition, one characteristic of the sociopath/psychopath is that, > when caught and punished, they become more adept at hiding their > condition. Which fits in with Dumbledore seeing through young Riddle and > requiring that he make amends. > > What you say makes sense unless you consider Riddle as a thinking, > reasoning being. And you ask yourself what sort of person could do such > a thing in real life. And, frankly, that person comes out as a > sociopath/psychopath (that's a technique I learned from the British > writer/philosopher, Gilbert Chesterton). Steve replies: Sociopaths become more adept at hiding their condition, psychopaths don't because they aren't able to hide their violent tendencies and behavior. > > Shelley: > > But who's > > to say where pure-blood extremist actions would end and actual mental > > illness begins? > > Bart: > If it were a borderline case, a trained psychologist or > psychiatrist. But Riddle was hardly a borderline case. Steve replies: Actually, Riddle wasn't even a borderline case. Until the age of 18, he couldn't even be diagnosed accurately as having a sociopathic or psychopathic condition...the DSM-IV doesn't become valid til age 18 and until there is a pervasive pattern of that serious behavior. > From bart at moosewise.com Mon Jan 4 19:10:32 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 14:10:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B423D28.7030905@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188720 SteveE wrote: > Steve replies: Just because you bring out an online checklist of possible symptoms for a mental illness diagnosis doesn't mean a person has that mental illness if they have some or even to some extent all of those symptoms. Bart: Last I heard, Morty was a fictional character in a book. Therefore, as I have pointed out before, one must look at JKR's potential knowledge, not technical knowledge of an expert. But you must have missed an earlier post in the thread, where I specifically wrote, "Voldemort corresponds more to Dr. Robert Hare's Psychopathy Checklist than to the official textbook definitions"; the post to which you responded was just expanding on that. Bart From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 5 02:55:29 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 02:55:29 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188721 > > Steve replies: Actually, Riddle wasn't even a borderline case. Until the age of 18, he couldn't even be diagnosed accurately as having a sociopathic or psychopathic condition...the DSM-IV doesn't become valid til age 18 and until there is a pervasive pattern of that serious behavior. > > Pippin: That's a good point. One of the things JKR does very well is illustrate why it's impossible to diagnose this condition in teenagers. It's hard to develop any systematic way of distinguishing between the behavior of a normal teen who's acting out and an abnormal one who's become good at concealing his condition. But that doesn't mean that the symptoms aren't there, they're just hard to identify as such. IIRC, the best indicator of troubled behavior in an adult is abnormal behavior in childhood, so the fact that we don't know how to diagnose this kind of abnormality in a teenager who behaved abnormally as a child probably doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I don't think canon implies that Riddle stopped bullying people during his first five years at Hogwarts. He just found ways to do it that wouldn't get him in trouble and wouldn't make him unpopular. He already knew from the orphanage that he could do it without getting caught. Both Slughorn and Dippet get a little uneasy about Tom. I'm sure they weren't the only ones. But he was good at manipulating people. He snowed Dippet. He made sure that anyone who might give a negative report about him (like Slughorn or poor Ginny or the "intimate friends" who knew him as 'Lord Voldemort') would have to compromise themselves to do it. And as James showed, you can get away with a lot of bullying if you are popular and your victims aren't. Even if Hagrid knew he'd been set up, who'd believe him? Shelly made the point that for all Voldemort's many evil deeds, it was only constructing horcruxes that made the damage to his soul irreparable. Since that is beyond the reach of any real person and most of JKR's fantastical ones, JKR isn't really saying anything about whether any human being is truly irredeemable. But she does want her characters to relate to Voldemort as if he were irredeemably evil, so the revelation that he might not be has to wait till the very last minute, though Dumbledore knew since the gleam of triumph in GoF. Nothing in Voldemort's actions can point unambiguously to a change in him, just as nothing Quirrell can do up to the final confrontation can call attention to him as a villain. Still, it's not like Dumbledore's sexuality, which was created as part of the character but elided from the text, with nothing to hint at it but Rita Skeeter's double entendres. To hear Dumbledore tell it, he fell in love with Grindelwald's ideas. But canon is explicit about Dumbledore's hope for Voldemort. "His body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, so do you and so does Voldemort's one last hope for himself." Dumbledore smiled at Harry, and Harry stared at him. "And you knew this? You knew -- all along!" "I guessed. But my guesses have usually been good," said Dumbledore happily, and they sat in silence for what seemed like a long time, while the creature behind them continued to whimper and tremble. -DH ch 35 The reader might overlook this, or ignore it, or find it implausible. But it's definitely there. Pippin From puduhepa98 at aol.com Wed Jan 6 04:08:25 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 04:08:25 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: >snip> > > > > > Steve replies: Actually, Riddle wasn't even a borderline case. Until the age of 18, he couldn't even be diagnosed accurately as having a sociopathic or psychopathic condition...the DSM-IV doesn't become valid til age 18 and until there is a pervasive pattern of that serious behavior. > > > > > Pippin: > That's a good point. One of the things JKR does very well is illustrate why it's impossible to diagnose this condition in teenagers. It's hard to develop any systematic way of distinguishing between the behavior of a normal teen who's acting out and an abnormal one who's become good at concealing his condition. But that doesn't mean that the symptoms aren't there, they're just hard to identify as such. IIRC, the best indicator of troubled behavior in an adult is abnormal behavior in childhood, so the fact that we don't know how to diagnose this kind of abnormality in a teenager who behaved abnormally as a child probably doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. > Nikkalmati I believe that Bart is correct when he says (more or less paraphrased) that in a work of fiction we have to look at the resources of the author and her POV. I do not believe that JKR intended us to consult the medical criteria for LV. She strives to show us from the beginning that LV-TR is abnormal, cruel and without conscience. He kills the rabbit (someone's pet presumably) and irrepribly damages two children while at the orphanage. The director seems glad to be rid of him, not because she does not like him, but because she is a bit afraid of him. He conceals his magic, not so he will fit in, but so he can use it against people. Unlike Harry and Hermione, he does not feel wierd for having magic; rather he feels superior. The story emphasizes his antecedents at length and shows his uncle and grandfather as antisocial and degenerate. I believe she wants us to believe that LV is a product of his bloodline. His genetic line is not superior, but inferior, and he has inherited his base nature. Does this line in the story go against the "choices" theme? It sure does, but it is not the only contradiction I see in the story. As for the "blood" of Harry, I find that the infusion of even a drop of his blood is intended to give LV a glimpse of normal behavior and extends the possibility of remorse and redemption. However, LV is sunk too far in his sins to make his way out. For him, the possiblity of redemption is symbolic only. Nikkalmati >Pippin > I don't think canon implies that Riddle stopped bullying people during his first five years at Hogwarts. He just found ways to do it that wouldn't get him in trouble and wouldn't make him unpopular. He already knew from the orphanage that he could do it without getting caught. > Nikkalmati I do think he controlled himself at Hogwarts for the most part, as a better way of manipulating people and also because he knew DD was watching him. Like many of the tyrants of history (with whom I am sure JKR is familiar) he becomes more sunk in evil as he continues with the Horcruxes and the murders, and less and less able to conceal his madness. Nikkalmati > Pippin > > But canon is explicit about Dumbledore's hope for Voldemort. > > "His body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, so do you and so does Voldemort's one last hope for himself." > snip< Nikkalmati I really think JKR included this psrt as a preparation for Harry's grand gesture in the Great Hall illustrating his greatness of spirit, rather than a real possibility LV will turn. Nikkalmati From winterfell7 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 6 16:30:41 2010 From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:30:41 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188723 "nikkalmati" wrote: "pippin_999" > >snip> > > > > > > > > Steve replies: Actually, Riddle wasn't even a borderline case. Until the age of 18, he couldn't even be diagnosed accurately as having a sociopathic or psychopathic condition...the DSM-IV doesn't become valid til age 18 and until there is a pervasive pattern of that serious behavior. > > > > > > > > Pippin: > > That's a good point. One of the things JKR does very well is illustrate why it's impossible to diagnose this condition in teenagers. It's hard to develop any systematic way of distinguishing between the behavior of a normal teen who's acting out and an abnormal one who's become good at concealing his condition. But that doesn't mean that the symptoms aren't there, they're just hard to identify as such. IIRC, the best indicator of troubled behavior in an adult is abnormal behavior in childhood, so the fact that we don't know how to diagnose this kind of abnormality in a teenager who behaved abnormally as a child probably doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. > > > > Nikkalmati: > > I believe that Bart is correct when he says (more or less paraphrased) that in a work of fiction we have to look at the resources of the author and her POV. I do not believe that JKR intended us to consult the medical criteria for LV. She strives to show us from the beginning that LV-TR is abnormal, cruel and without conscience. He kills the rabbit (someone's pet presumably) and irrepribly damages two children while at the orphanage. The director seems glad to be rid of him, not because she does not like him, but because she is a bit afraid of him. He conceals his magic, not so he will fit in, but so he can use it against people. Unlike Harry and Hermione, he does not feel wierd for having magic; rather he feels superior. > > The story emphasizes his antecedents at length and shows his uncle and grandfather as antisocial and degenerate. I believe she wants us to believe that LV is a product of his bloodline. His genetic line is not superior, but inferior, and he has inherited his base nature. Does this line in the story go against the "choices" theme? It sure does, but it is not the only contradiction I see in the story. > Steve replies: I agree that it is prudent and respectful of JKR to consider her own background and her POV on LV's overall mental states and motivations. I agree w/ you and w/ Bart in this issue. However, Bart was citing Dr. Robert Hare's checklists of psychopathy to make his own interpretations of LV's exact psychological attributes, so I was countering those real life criteria w/ DSM-IV codes as well ss my own 30 years of clinical experience. We both got off tangent abit w/ real life diagnosis of fictional characters mental maladies. I imagine the DSM-IV handbook and Dr. Hare's PCL-R (and subsequent juvinile psychopathy criteria) would really have fun trying to factor in Horcrux's and other kinds of Dark magic. I also doubt St. Mungo's Hospital uses either of them...lol. As to LV being a product of his bloodline vs the "choices" theme, I have mixed emotions. As a fantasy fan and reader, I can see JKR's points and can agree w/ the bloodline background as at least a partial prerequisite or contributing factor in LV's behavior. As a therapist...I believe that we are responsible for the choices we make and it's those choices that we make that determine our fate. When a person becomes seriously mentally ill, then that illness impacts those choices we make and an indivicual's responsibility for his/her actions lessens. Take alcoholism for example. A person initially makes consious choices to drink and after repeating those choices over a long period of time, eventually the drinking becomes a habit, the habit becomes the illness known as alcoholism, and that person's ability to make responsible conscious choices about drinking disappears. W/ LV, even after the drop of Harry's blood, I think his degree of "craziness" was so firmly entrenched that even though he theoretically now had the ability for remorse, repentance and remorse as was mentioned was more symbolic than actually feasible for it to happen. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Thu Jan 7 00:34:20 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:34:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness References: Message-ID: <86F3EAFCFDA544208598ACABCE8CA2A7@homemain> No: HPFGUIDX 188724 > Pippin: > I don't think canon implies that Riddle stopped bullying people during his > first five years at Hogwarts. He just found ways to do it that wouldn't > get him in trouble and wouldn't make him unpopular. He already knew from > the orphanage that he could do it without getting caught. > Shelley: But to me, if DD had discovered even ONE solid case of an example of Tom Riddle bullying, in a serious way that left scars on the person (as were the children where were never quite right following their contact with Riddle) somewhere in the middle of all of his good behavior and awards for such, that would be the point of his bahevior being totally consistant all the way through, carrying the connection between the young child who killed a rabbit to the older student who purposely opened the Chamber of Secrets with that same intention to bully (with death, if necessary) the Mudbloods. Even the scene with Hagrid could have worked, if it weren't so benign. Hagrid did have an illegal creature or potentially harmful creature, so he wasn't exactly 100% blameless, so that's not a foolproof case of bullying an innocent person, KWIM? Anyone could have turned Hagrid in, for such as simple reason of being scared of the creature and fearing of what it might do to the students, rather than Riddle's second motive of hiding his tracks. Hagrid was totally unharmed, save from being banned from school. I would have liked to see a person who did come forward and point to a Tom Riddle who had moments of unstability as a student, or who had tortured or really harmed them in some tangeable way. In the same way that you don't think canon implied Riddle stopped bullying, we don't see any clear evidence that he continued. As I see it, there is that gap that one can only "assume" continuity, dispite and to the contrary to all the accolades that Tom earned for himself at school. But assumptions don't equal a solid example, in my book. The awards he earned speak louder that the assumption that he was good at duping everyone, but was secretly evil beneath. The very fact that he earned accolates and awards are proof that he could control himself, and for long periods at a time. > Pippin: > Both Slughorn and Dippet get a little uneasy about Tom. I'm sure they > weren't the only ones. But he was good at manipulating people. He snowed > Dippet. He made sure that anyone who might give a negative report about > him (like Slughorn or poor Ginny or the "intimate friends" who knew him as > 'Lord Voldemort') would have to compromise themselves to do it. And as > James showed, you can get away with a lot of bullying if you are popular > and your victims aren't. Even if Hagrid knew he'd been set up, who'd > believe him? > Shelley: I fail to see how Slughorn would have compromised himself by immediately reporting to the headmaster that a student was inquiring seriously about Horcruxes. We see a Slughorn who was later embarrassed by the fact that he should have known what Tom's questions were for, and then tampered with his own memory because he was ashamed that he had helped Voldemort on his path to do evil, but at the time of that questioning Riddle had nothing to threaten Slughorn with. Hagrid had nothing on Tom to work in his self defense- he indeed had violated school rules by having a pet that might have been dangerous. He shouldn't have been expelled for it, but mostly he created his own situation in which ANY student could have turned him in and gotten him punished for it. > Pippin: > Shelly made the point that for all Voldemort's many evil deeds, it was > only constructing horcruxes that made the damage to his soul irreparable. > Since that is beyond the reach of any real person and most of JKR's > fantastical ones, JKR isn't really saying anything about whether any human > being is truly irredeemable. > > But she does want her characters to relate to Voldemort as if he were > irredeemably evil, so the revelation that he might not be has to wait till > the very last minute, though Dumbledore knew since the gleam of triumph in > GoF. Nothing in Voldemort's actions can point unambiguously to a change > in him, just as nothing Quirrell can do up to the final confrontation can > call attention to him as a villain. Shelley: But I have pointed out quotes where I do see a change, from a kid merely inquiring about his past and from whom he had inherited his magical talents from (such as that special and rare gift of Parceltongue) to the Voldemort that had intentionally multilated himself by ripped his soul so many times that even his outward appearance made his former self unrecognizable. Quoting again: Dumbledore to Harry: "He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable." (CS18) The change from Riddle to Voldemort was a shocking and disturbing one. Now, if you are talking about the Voldemort post Harry's blood infusion, then yes, nothing changed at all about his behavior and intentions. > Pippin: > But canon is explicit about Dumbledore's hope for Voldemort. > > "His body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, > so do you and so does Voldemort's one last hope for himself." > > Dumbledore smiled at Harry, and Harry stared at him. > "And you knew this? You knew -- all along!" > "I guessed. But my guesses have usually been good," said Dumbledore > happily, and they sat in silence for what seemed like a long time, while > the creature behind them continued to whimper and tremble. > -DH ch 35 > > The reader might overlook this, or ignore it, or find it implausible. But > it's definitely there. > > Pippin Shelley: I don't see that as hope for Voldemort himself, but rather for hope in the defeat of Voldemort. The "sacrifice", "that enchantment" is Harry's link to Voldemort by being his horcrux. With the destruction of that horcrux comes the ability for Voldemort to be killed, once and for all. Voldemort's death was DD's real hope for the WW. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Thu Jan 7 01:06:43 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 18:06:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188725 > Nikkalmati > > I believe that Bart is correct when he says (more or less paraphrased) > that in a work of fiction we have to look at the resources of the author > and her POV. I do not believe that JKR intended us to consult the medical > criteria for LV. She strives to show us from the beginning that LV-TR is > abnormal, cruel and without conscience. He kills the rabbit (someone's > pet presumably) and irrepribly damages two children while at the > orphanage. The director seems glad to be rid of him, not because she does > not like him, but because she is a bit afraid of him. He conceals his > magic, not so he will fit in, but so he can use it against people. Unlike > Harry and Hermione, he does not feel wierd for having magic; rather he > feels superior. > > The story emphasizes his antecedents at length and shows his uncle and > grandfather as antisocial and degenerate. I believe she wants us to > believe that LV is a product of his bloodline. His genetic line is not > superior, but inferior, and he has inherited his base nature. Does this > line in the story go against the "choices" theme? It sure does, but it is > not the only contradiction I see in the story. Shelley: Not necessarily does the ancestry go against the choices theme. There are two types of choices presented in the book: the immediate, and the long term. Harry's choice of a House in his conversation with the Hat was an immediate choice. The Guant's long term pureblood attitude that bred in instability from close inbreeding of family lines for generation after generation is an example of the long term choice. Both types of choices have consequences. Riddle did indeed suffer from a bit of that instability from the inbreeding family line, but he also benefitted from the fresh infusion of the Muggle his mother chose for his father. Clearly, he was not as stupid or as short sighted as his uncle and grandfather had been. None of that instability "makes" or "forces" him to rip his soul by creating a Horcrux, for that we can only blame his immediate, short term decision to do so. I believe it was the stability of his father's blood that contributes to his intelligence and good looks, and those further him down the road to connections he could make to do research that eventually led him to discovering the Horcruxes. We see a lot of suffering from long term choices in the series: the WW's treatment of the Goblins and other magical creatures such as the Centaurs, for example. The treatment of the House Elves, the rules about wands, the pureblood attitudes, etc. All of those go into the world that Harry Potter is introduced to, and he has to work with the consequences of all the wizards before him who mistreated the other magical folk. Harry proves that he is different; he doesn't follow precedent in the mistreatment of his fellow magical creatures, and by his immediate choices to be different, changes the course of history for all of the wizards. From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 23:20:26 2010 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 23:20:26 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Discussion about possible changes to the HPfGU groups Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188726 Hello, everyone-- It's been proposed that since all the groups have become quite slow, we should consider condensing them into one group again, the main list. Initially there was only HPforGrownups and in addition to canon discussion, off-topic discussion and movie discussion happened there, as well. As the group got busier, it was decided that those topics should be moved to their own groups. Now that the groups are so much slower lately, it's been suggested that they be recombined into the one group again. We would like to know what members think about something like this. Please come to the Feedback group and let us know how you feel: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-Feedback The List Elves From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 8 23:37:25 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 23:37:25 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <86F3EAFCFDA544208598ACABCE8CA2A7@homemain> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188727 > > Shelley: if it weren't so benign. Hagrid did > have an illegal creature or potentially harmful creature, so he wasn't > exactly 100% blameless, so that's not a foolproof case of bullying an > innocent person, KWIM? Anyone could have turned Hagrid in, for such as > simple reason of being scared of the creature and fearing of what it might > do to the students, rather than Riddle's second motive of hiding his tracks. Pippin: Benign? Tom knew about Aragog for some time before he turned Hagrid in. He also knew perfectly well that Aragog was not responsible for any of the attacks, and most certainly not for killing Myrtle. Hagrid wasn't innocent of breaking school rules, but he was not guilty of deliberate attacks on other students either. Tom did not take responsibility for Myrtle's death or the attacks on other students. Shelley The very fact that he earned accolates and awards are proof that he could control himself, and for long periods at a time. Pippin: Agreed. Not all psychopaths have poor impulse control. Some theorize that they can avoid actions that will have adverse consequences, but the consequences have to be to them, not other people. As we see, Riddle was capable of stopping the attacks when he realized the school would be closed, he would not be able to stay at Hogwarts over the summer, and he would be sent back to the orphanage if Dippet believed the attacks might continue. Dumbledore did believe that Riddle and other students under his direction were responsible for "a number of nasty incidents to which they were never satisfactorily linked." He says Riddle's group had a "kind of dark glamour within the castle" during Riddle's "seven years at Hogwarts" -- HBP ch 17 > Shelley: > I fail to see how Slughorn would have compromised himself by immediately > reporting to the headmaster that a student was inquiring seriously about > Horcruxes. Pippin: The subject was banned. Slughorn should have refused to give Tom any information and reported his request at once. As the teacher, he's the responsible party even though Tom was also breaking the rule. If it was found out, probably at worst Tom might have his memory modified. But Slughorn would be disgraced permanently. "But all the same, Tom...keep it quiet, what I've told--that's to say, what we've discussed. People wouldn't like to think we've been chatting about Horcruxes. It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you know...Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it." -HBP ch 23 > Shelley: > I don't see that as hope for Voldemort himself, but rather for hope in the > defeat of Voldemort. The "sacrifice", "that enchantment" is Harry's link to > Voldemort by being his horcrux. With the destruction of that horcrux comes > the ability for Voldemort to be killed, once and for all. Voldemort's death > was DD's real hope for the WW. Pippin: Read it again. The passage is too long to quote, (pages 710 and 711 of DH) but the topic is clearly Lily's blood in Voldemort's body, not the effect of the soul bit in Harry. Pippin From catlady at wicca.net Sat Jan 9 17:46:43 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 17:46:43 -0000 Subject: the bright green eyes / mental illness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188728 Ceridwen discussed CoS Chapter 1 in : <<4. Who, or what, did you think the eyes in the bushes belonged to?>> As best I can recall, I thought the bright green eyes in the bushes had something to do with Lily's and Harry's green eyes. Steve Winterfell wrote in : << It's repetitive abnormal behavior that starts out w/ conscious choices that form patterns of behaviour that can result in mental illness. >> I hope you are referring only to when the mental illness under discussion is antisocial personality disorder, and not to when the mental illness is bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. My strictly amateur knowledge is that those mental illnesses begin in the brain, and from the brain they affect the person's perceptions. Abnormal behavior then results from abnormal perceptions, not from conscious choices to behave abnormally. Even further away from being a conscious choice to behave abnormally are the anecdotal reports of people who were diagnosed with some mental illness like schizophrenia and even hospitalized for it for a long time until their doctors discovered that their symptoms were actually caused by epileptic seizures, which is defined as not a "mental illness". Also, the first-person narratives of famous successful people who suddenly came down with major depression don't sound like they consciously chose abnormal behaviors. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 9 19:00:18 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 9 Jan 2010 19:00:18 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/10/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1263063618.13.46683.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188729 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 10, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 3 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Jan 10 03:48:02 2010 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 03:48:02 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188730 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 2: Dobby's Warning This chapter begins on Harry's twelfth birthday. Harry is alone in his bedroom, while the Dursleys entertain the Masons, business acquaintances of Vernon. An odd being arrives in Harry's room, and identifies himself as Dobby, a House-Elf. Dobby warns Harry that he must not return to Hogwarts because his master is scheming to make terrible things happen there. Harry learns Dobby is the reason he has received no mail from his friends - Dobby has been intercepting them. When Harry refuses to promise to stay home, Dobby uses magic to drop Petunia's fancy dessert on the kitchen floor, and Harry receives a reprimand from the Ministry for using magic. The Masons storm out, ruining Vernon's prospects for a deal. From the Ministry's letter, Vernon learns Harry is not able to use magic at home. No longer fearing retaliation, Vernon locks Harry up in his room indefinitely. The chapter ends when Harry sees Ron outside his now barred window. Questions for discussion: 1) We first learn of House Elves in this chapter. What was your reaction to Dobby's self-punishments and description of his the conditions of his enslavement? 2) Dobby states that he heard about Harry's recent (end of PS/SS) confrontation with Lord Voldemort. Who do you suppose was his source? 3) Dobby intercepted all the letters Ron, Hermione, and Hagrid wrote to Harry. How do you suppose he did this? 4) Why do you suppose Lucius picked this year to open the Chamber of Secrets? 5) Harry has a dream in this chapter after the Dursleys lock him up, that he is on display in a cage labelled "Underage Wizard", and Dobby refuses to rescue him because he is safe in there. Any thoughts on the meaning of this dream, and how it is similar to/dofferent from, other dreams of Harry's we read about in the series? 6) Harry receives a reprimand by Owl from the Ministry after Dobby uses a Hover Charm to destroy Petunia's pudding. This is our first encounter with the Ministry. What was your reaction to this letter? How does it fit in with what we learn of the Ministry throughout the series? 7) Dobby reappears in several of the books, and his story culminates with his rescue of Harry and death in "Deathly Hallows". What was your first impression of Dobby? How has it changed? 8) Feel free to add your own questions/comments about this chapter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsdatabase?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 3, The Burrow, on January 17, 2010. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). --Zara From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 10 18:03:24 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 10 Jan 2010 18:03:24 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/10/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1263146604.62.9929.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188731 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 10, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jan 11 14:29:58 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:29:58 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188732 Questions for discussion: 1) We first learn of House Elves in this chapter. What was your reaction to Dobby's self-punishments and description of his the conditions of his enslavement? Potioncat: I don't remember my first reaction, but I never had the aversion to Dobby that many readers have. The list has discussed the particulars of House Elfdom for many years but it still isn't clear what compels the House Elves to punish themselves. There's a considerable difference between Dobby's and Kreacher's behavior though both are serving masters they dislike. 2) Dobby states that he heard about Harry's recent (end of PS/SS) confrontation with Lord Voldemort. Who do you suppose was his source? Potioncat: My first thought would be from the Malfoys. But if Lucius had any idea that LV was around, why would he use the diary? I'm pretty sure he didn't know it was a Horcrux, but he did know it was valuable to LV. 3) Dobby intercepted all the letters Ron, Hermione, and Hagrid wrote to Harry. How do you suppose he did this? Potioncat: Erm .Magic? On the one hand, House Elves must serve their families; on the other they have very powerful magic of their own. So Dobby must have had some way of intercepting owls coming to Privet Dr. 4) Why do you suppose Lucius picked this year to open the Chamber of Secrets? Potioncat: Again, I'm not sure why he used LV's diary if he knew LV was around. Unless he thought it would somehow help LV to come back or unless he thought using it would give him power over LV. Also, whatever his motive, the MoM was intensifying its search for Dark items. He may have felt it was now or never. 5) Harry has a dream in this chapter after the Dursleys lock him up, that he is on display in a cage labeled "Underage Wizard", and Dobby refuses to rescue him because he is safe in there. Any thoughts on the meaning of this dream, and how it is similar to/different from, other dreams of Harry's we read about in the series? Potioncat: I don't think I ever realized how many dreams Harry has in the course of the series! In many ways these dreams are just like RW dreams?a sort of reviewing of events. Dreaming that he was in a cage he couldn't get out of, then waking to Ron at the bars of the windows seems like the way a dream would flow. 6) Harry receives a reprimand by Owl from the Ministry after Dobby uses a Hover Charm to destroy Petunia's pudding. This is our first encounter with the Ministry. What was your reaction to this letter? How does it fit in with what we learn of the Ministry throughout the series? Potioncat: The bureaucracy of the MoM reflects the red tape of the RW. It never seems to be of any real help. 7) Dobby reappears in several of the books, and his story culminates with his rescue of Harry and death in "Deathly Hallows". What was your first impression of Dobby? How has it changed? Potioncat: I liked Dobby's storyline with the contrast between his power and lack of power, and his misguided attempts at helping Harry. Seeing how JKR took the old Brownie stories and gave them a twist was intriguing. Potioncat's question: Dobby makes reference to "there are powers Dumbledore doesn't...powers no decent wizard " Does Dobby know about the Horcrux? If not, what powers is he talking about? My new spell checker wanted to change Horcrux to Horror. Not a bad suggestion! Thanks, Zara for interesting questions. From winterfell7 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 11 14:32:02 2010 From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:32:02 -0000 Subject: the bright green eyes / mental illness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188733 Steve replies: Shoulda been bit more specific about what I meant by mental illness. I was more concerned w/ more neurotic (old school term, I know) behavior, especially addictive behaviors like alcoholism and drug abuse, gambling and sexual addictions, etc. These kinds of behavior as well as the antisocial personality disorders do often begin w/ conscious choice and then escalate thru repitition to become more serious addictive illnesses. And of course I realize that schizophrenia, bipolar, clinical depression and some other serious mental illnesses have chemical or other physiological causal factors. With some less serious kinds of depression that are more situational conscious choices factor in more predominantly. wrote: > > Ceridwen discussed CoS Chapter 1 in : > > <<4. Who, or what, did you think the eyes in the bushes belonged to?>> > > As best I can recall, I thought the bright green eyes in the bushes had something to do with Lily's and Harry's green eyes. > > Steve Winterfell wrote in : > > << It's repetitive abnormal behavior that starts out w/ conscious choices that form patterns of behaviour that can result in mental illness. >> > > I hope you are referring only to when the mental illness under discussion is antisocial personality disorder, and not to when the mental illness is bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. My strictly amateur knowledge is that those mental illnesses begin in the brain, and from the brain they affect the person's perceptions. Abnormal behavior then results from abnormal perceptions, not from conscious choices to behave abnormally. > > Even further away from being a conscious choice to behave abnormally are the anecdotal reports of people who were diagnosed with some mental illness like schizophrenia and even hospitalized for it for a long time until their doctors discovered that their symptoms were actually caused by epileptic seizures, which is defined as not a "mental illness". > > Also, the first-person narratives of famous successful people who suddenly came down with major depression don't sound like they consciously chose abnormal behaviors. > From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Jan 11 19:48:19 2010 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:48:19 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188734 > Potioncat's question: > Dobby makes reference to "there are powers Dumbledore doesn't...powers no decent wizard " Does Dobby know about the Horcrux? If not, what powers is he talking about? Zara: I think Dobby is just referring non-specifically to the "Dark Arts". The moment he mentions these powers, he starts to beat himself over the head with a lamp. This must mean, in my opinion, that he is referring to powers his masters use, as I think he is punishing himself for insinuating that they are not decent wizards. Since I believe Lucius does not know about the Horcrux, I do not think this is what Dobby meant. From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue Jan 12 16:02:44 2010 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (dk59us) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:02:44 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ZaraG asked: > 4) Why do you suppose Lucius picked this year to open the Chamber of Secrets? > > Potioncat: > Again, I'm not sure why he used LV's diary if he knew LV was > around. Unless he thought it would somehow help LV to come back or > unless he thought using it would give him power over LV. Also, > whatever his motive, the MoM was intensifying its search for Dark > items. He may have felt it was now or never. Eustace_Scrubb: Did Lucius know that the result of slipping the diary into Ginny Weasley's things would/could be the opening of the Chamber of Secrets (and indeed, the possible emergence of Memory Riddle as a living breathing reality)? Or was he mainly concerned with disposing of a dark object that could have proved embarrassing or worse if found at Malfoy Manor--while at the same time possibly discrediting one of his primary antagonists at the Ministry? In the COS Movie, as Borgin examines the items Lucius is selling, Lucius points at something in the box and tells Borgin that particular item is not for sale. One assumes the filmmakers meant this to be the diary (possibly brought inadvertently by Malfoy), thus establishing its presence later in Diagon Alley. In the book of course, Malfoy only has a list of stuff that Borgin will come pick up later. So we are left to wonder why Lucius had it with him that day--but I don't see him as likely to have brought it intending to find Arthur Weasley's family at Flourish and Blotts and plant it in Ginny's things. More likely, he intended to place it in his family vault at Gringott's until the melee at the bookstore. At the time of Chamber of Secrets it was much easier for a reader to believe that Lucius fully knew what he was doing than it became later in the series. I wonder whether LV would actually have told Lucius that the diary could lead to the opening of the Chamber (it seems clear that LV didn't tell his followers details about the horcruxes in any case--that would have been an unacceptable risk to his planned immortality). If Lucius did know that the diary could be used to open the Chamber, did he have any reason to believe this would definitely occur if it fell into Ginny Weasley's hands? I tend to the opinion that Lucius was not aware (fully, at least) of the consequences when he slipped the diary into Ginny's cauldron at Flourish and Blotts...and that he did not expect to see the damaged diary on the desk when he met Dumbledore at the end of the book (nor do I think he understood that he had helped in the destruction of a part of LV's soul). (Perhaps there are pronouncements from JKR that would negate this opinion, but if so I haven't paid sufficient attention to them.) Thoughts? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Jan 12 19:47:01 2010 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:47:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188736 > Eustace_Scrubb: > At the time of Chamber of Secrets it was much easier for a reader to believe that Lucius fully knew what he was doing than it became later in the series. I wonder whether LV would actually have told Lucius that the diary could lead to the opening of the Chamber (it seems clear that LV didn't tell his followers details about the horcruxes in any case--that would have been an unacceptable risk to his planned immortality). > > If Lucius did know that the diary could be used to open the Chamber, did he have any reason to believe this would definitely occur if it fell into Ginny Weasley's hands? Zara: What I think makes this interpretation problematic is Dobby's statements in the chapter we are discussing. He comes to Harry (days or weeks before the trip to Diagon Alley in which Lucius gives the Diary to Ginny) to warn him there is a plan underway to make terrible things happen at Hogwarts in the coming school year. I don't see what else Dobby would mean, but the use of the diary in some way to open the Chamber of Secrets. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 12 23:41:17 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:41:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188737 - > > Eustace_Scrubb: > > At the time of Chamber of Secrets it was much easier for a reader to believe that Lucius fully knew what he was doing than it became later in the series. I wonder whether LV would actually have told Lucius that the diary could lead to the opening of the Chamber (it seems clear that LV didn't tell his followers details about the horcruxes in any case--that would have been an unacceptable risk to his planned immortality). > > > > If Lucius did know that the diary could be used to open the Chamber, did he have any reason to believe this would definitely occur if it fell into Ginny Weasley's hands? Pippin: According to Dumbledore, who must have gotten his information from Snape, Lucius had been told that the diary would open the chamber. Voldemort would have to give Lucius some explanation for wanting him to guard what appeared to be a blank Muggle diary. Dobby says he has known about the plot for months, which could mean it was underway even before Harry met Voldemort again, probably as soon as it seemed Arthur might get his Muggle protection act passed. Lucius's plan seems to have been that Ginny would be blamed for opening the chamber and the whole Weasley family would be discredited. It's possible that Dobby had a chance to examine the diary on his own before Lucius gave it to Ginny and discovered more of its nature than Lucius knew. Dobby has heard that Voldemort and Harry have met again, perhaps from the Hogwarts elves. But would Lucius believe it? Surely his master wouldn't have allied himself with a weak wizard like Quirrell and ignored his loyal follower Lucius. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 15 02:35:41 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 02:35:41 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ZaraG" wrote: > > Zara: 1) We first learn of House Elves in this chapter. What was your reaction to Dobby's self-punishments and description of his the conditions of his enslavement? Alla: I actually just reread this chapter half an hour ago before responding to your questions and you know, thinking now about all our discussions about house elves, I have to say, I am pretty sure that my first reaction was that this is a disgusting cruel slavery and nothing else. I suppose that means that my thoughts about how house elves issue was eventually resolved in DH will probably change. After reading this chapter and rereading this chapter I could not imagine other resolution of house elves' issue than freeing them, I think. Oh well. 2) Dobby states that he heard about Harry's recent (end of PS/SS) confrontation with Lord Voldemort. Who do you suppose was his source? Alla: I would imagine somebody in Malfoy's household, if the whole school knew I think it could have just as easily been Draco as Lucius. 3) Dobby intercepted all the letters Ron, Hermione, and Hagrid wrote to Harry. How do you suppose he did this? Alla: Eh some sort of complicated elfy magic I would imagine but this was a very big reason why I did not like him from the beginning. 4) Why do you suppose Lucius picked this year to open the Chamber of Secrets? 5) Harry has a dream in this chapter after the Dursleys lock him up, that he is on display in a cage labelled "Underage Wizard", and Dobby refuses to rescue him because he is safe in there. Any thoughts on the meaning of this dream, and how it is similar to/dofferent from, other dreams of Harry's we read about in the series? 6) Harry receives a reprimand by Owl from the Ministry after Dobby uses a Hover Charm to destroy Petunia's pudding. This is our first encounter with the Ministry. What was your reaction to this letter? How does it fit in with what we learn of the Ministry throughout the series? Alla: I do not remember my first reaction at all, but upon rereading I wondered why the heck owl was being so careless and dropped the letter in front of the muggles to see. I mean I know they do not work in secrecy and for example Harry's letters also came to him when Dursleys could see them, but Masons are strangers. I would think owl would wait or something? 7) Dobby reappears in several of the books, and his story culminates with his rescue of Harry and death in "Deathly Hallows". What was your first impression of Dobby? How has it changed? Alla: First impression ? beyond annoying, but yes I shed tears when he died. 8) Feel free to add your own questions/comments about this chapter. Alla: Not a question, more like observation, while CoS is not a book which I reread so very often, some chapters do stick with me more than the others. This chapter stuck with me for what I consider one of the cruelest depictions of Dursleys' abuse ? locking Harry in the room, letting him out only to the bathroom, etc. But when I reread this chapter the other paragraph stroke me as even more poignant description of how bad Harry had it with Dursleys dearest IMO. "W-what?" Harry stammered. "But I've got to go back ? term starts on September first. It's all that's keeping me going. You don't know what it's like here. I don't belong here. I belong in your world ? in Hogwarts" ? p.16, CoS, paperback. Alla: When I read this outburst, I want to hug Harry all over again (and yeah, strangle Dumbledore all over again lol), but yes, I find it interesting that while I always remembered this chapter for Harry being locked in the room, I completely forgot the sentences which to me describe so much in so few words. Thanks for the great questions, Zara. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 16 18:57:06 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 16 Jan 2010 18:57:06 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/17/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1263668226.8.70241.m5@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188739 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 17, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 3 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Jan 16 20:57:51 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 20:57:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ZaraG" wrote: > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets > Chapter 2: Dobby's Warning Zara: > 1) We first learn of House Elves in this chapter. What was your reaction to Dobby's self-punishments and description of his the conditions of his enslavement? Geoff: My feeling was that "we've got a right one here". Dobby came on as being very strange and leaving me wondering where this oddball was going to fit into the story. Zara: > 2) Dobby states that he heard about Harry's recent (end of PS/SS) confrontation with Lord Voldemort. Who do you suppose was his source? Geoff: I would agree with something another group member wrote that Dumbledore had said to Harry in PS that "what happened down in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrell is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows". ("The Man with Two Faces" p.214 UK edition). Hence, the news would leak outside Hogwarts. Zara: > 3) Dobby intercepted all the letters Ron, Hermione, and Hagrid wrote to Harry. How do you suppose he did this? Geoff: Again quoting somebody else, house-elf magic. Zara: > 4) Why do you suppose Lucius picked this year to open the Chamber of Secrets? Geoff: I pondered the possibility that it was fifty years since the event - or at least when Tom Riddle bought the book. Zara: > 5) Harry has a dream in this chapter after the Dursleys lock him up, that he is on display in a cage labelled "Underage Wizard", and Dobby refuses to rescue him because he is safe in there. Any thoughts on the meaning of this dream, and how it is similar to/dofferent from, other dreams of Harry's we read about in the series? Geoff: I wonder whether it was his mind's way of muling over some of the odd things which had happened. It reminds me of the dream he had at the end of "The Sorting Hat" chapter in PS (p.97 UK edition) which involved things like wearing Quirrell's turban. I'm sure many of us get odd dream sequences like this. Zara: > 6) Harry receives a reprimand by Owl from the Ministry after Dobby uses a Hover Charm to destroy Petunia's pudding. This is our first encounter with the Ministry. What was your reaction to this letter? How does it fit in with what we learn of the Ministry throughout the series? Geoff; It reminds me of the faceless and bland letters with which we are bombarded in the real world which tend to wrap everything up in officialese and need to be read more than once. I wasn't sure whether to be amused or to shake my head sadly over the fatuous "Enjoy your holidays." Zara: > 7) Dobby reappears in several of the books, and his story culminates with his rescue of Harry and death in "Deathly Hallows". What was your first impression of Dobby? How has it changed? Geoff: He is not really a favourite character of mine - I fond him rather annoying and he seems to be a similar type to Colin Creevey. who doted on Harry and seeks every opportunity to intercept him, take his photograph and rabbit on to him about everything. I have to admit that he met Harry's urgent need in DH at great cost to himself. From sherriola at gmail.com Sun Jan 17 16:05:50 2010 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:05:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188741 Questions for discussion: 1) We first learn of House Elves in this chapter. What was your reaction to Dobby's self-punishments and description of his the conditions of his enslavement? Sherry now: I didn't like Dobby at first, found him highly annoying in fact. But the whole idea of house elf enslavement bothered me in a visceral way, till the end of the series and beyond. It was one of the big things left unresolved at the end of DH and I felt kind of cheated about that. By the end of COS, though I still hadn't come to like Dobby, I was happy and relieved that Harry got him his freedom and moved by his reactions. 6) Harry receives a reprimand by Owl from the Ministry after Dobby uses a Hover Charm to destroy Petunia's pudding. This is our first encounter with the Ministry. What was your reaction to this letter? How does it fit in with what we learn of the Ministry throughout the series? Sherry now: I had a mixed reaction to this first Ministry letter. I laughed at the ridiculous enjoy your holidays bit, after just issuing the poor kid a threat, but I also felt irritated that he was basically accused and convicted without ever being asked his side. It did not give me a good first impression of the Ministry, and that impression only got worse as the series progressed. 7) Dobby reappears in several of the books, and his story culminates with his rescue of Harry and death in "Deathly Hallows". What was your first impression of Dobby? How has it changed? Sherry now: I began liking Dobby as a character in his own right sometime in GOF. I think it had a lot to do with his reaction to freedom, reveling in it as it were, sticking with it in the face of the ostracism and hostility from other house elves. Maybe not exactly ostracism, but Dobby made the rest of them uncomfortable. Yet he helped Winky even though she criticized him over his freedom and desire for getting paid. By the time of his rescuing Harry and dying in DH, I cared a lot about him and cried as Harry buried him. I found the burial of Dobby one of the more genuinely moving moments in the entire series. Thanks, Zara, for a great summary and questions! Sherry From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 17 18:01:26 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 17 Jan 2010 18:01:26 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/17/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1263751286.17.99204.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188742 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 17, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bart at moosewise.com Sun Jan 17 19:07:11 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:07:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B535FDF.1080401@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188743 Sherry Gomes wrote: > Questions for discussion: > 1) We first learn of House Elves in this chapter. What was your reaction to > Dobby's self-punishments and description of his the conditions of his > enslavement? > > Sherry now: > I didn't like Dobby at first, found him highly annoying in fact. But the > whole idea of house elf enslavement bothered me in a visceral way, till the > end of the series and beyond. It was one of the big things left unresolved > at the end of DH and I felt kind of cheated about that. By the end of COS, > though I still hadn't come to like Dobby, I was happy and relieved that > Harry got him his freedom and moved by his reactions. > Bart: I'm using Sherry's reply as more of a springboard than discussing precisely what she said. Before we go into the WW, I'd like to bring up a phenomenon in the "real world". Here, we have a huge gap between animal intelligence and human intelligence. Animal intelligence tends to reach about the level of a normal human 2 year old. However, when humans reach two, instead of plateauing out (I can't believe I spelled that right on the first try), they enter a period of accelerated learning that lasts until ages 6-12. Linguistic scientists have theorized that what differentiates humans is the ability to form abstract thoughts. Without going into technical jargon, language can be brought into three levels. You have the first level, where the thing is the thing. Meaning that you know something by the sensory information you receive from it. The second level is where one thing implies another thing, the use of symbols. At the simplest level, where there's smoke, there's fire. More advanced, the written word, "banana" symbolizes a banana; this is where the most advanced animals, like dolphins, elephants, and apes can reach. However, what humans can do is to create databases, where symbols are connected not to the physical thing, but to other symbols, creating another dimension of thought. This is a problem that tends to be ignored in fantasy where animals can speak, but retain the same basic psychology they appear to have when they don't. The basic psychology of animals who could speak is so major a step that the animal would have a radically different personality, to an extent that it would not be that animal anymore, but a new creature entirely. Animal behaviorists, except for a few who like grabbing headlines, accept that animals are not humans, and that behavior that appears similar to humans are not necessarily due to the same causes. Baby apes and elephants, if their mothers die, will stand by their mothers, even after the rest of their pack moves away. It looks like human mourning, but it is far more connected that the young animals take all their cues of behavior from their mothers, and without their mother moving, they just sit waiting for the next cue. Many major problems that occur between humans and their pets occur because the humans are interpreting the behavior as human behavior, rather than animal behavior. Rowling, apparently not understanding the full language (as opposed to use of combined symbols, such as what apes supposedly taught "sign language" use; you can ask any deaf person about the difference), and creates creatures which use language, but have different psychologies from humans. The centaurs, for example, clearly have human level intelligence, but a different psychology (although there are some similarities to the culture of, for example, the Lenape Indians in the United States, although the culture of the latter was based largely on the fact that the sparse population combined with plentiful food, easy shelter and lack of disease, leaving plenty of time for philosophical contemplation and relative lack of importance for day-to-day issues). The House Elves, which were probably created magically, clearly have a psychological need to serve. From what we have seen, by House Elf standards, Dobby was insane. One can only assume that it was his servitude to the Malfoys that drove him insane. Now, going into some logic that JKR may not have gone into, or even thought about, it is clear that house elf magic is, in several if not many ways, more powerful than wizard magic (ability to aport into Hogwarts, intercept mail without detection, apparently able to perform advanced spells without years of training). Frankly, it is probably insanity to create an intelligent servant creature more powerful than its masters; the WW apparently put some very powerful safeties into the House Elf psychology to prevent them from taking over (probably on the order of Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics, which he initially considered to be a basic engineering solution rather than the philosophical problem it morphed into). Part of this, one would expect, would be a major block against injuring wizards or humans. Given the organic rather than mechanical nature of the house elf's brains, the clear priorities in Asimov's laws, which are based on the idea of programmed, constructed brains, would not be as clear. If Dobby were ordered to do things which were borderline against his House Elf nature, causing a conflict, that could create an insanity (there is literary precedent; the the computer HAL in 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY is a good example of apparent insanity as a resolution of resolving mutually exclusive and equally strong directives). My guess is that the Malfoys had been involving Dobby in borderline forbidden acts, that Dobby somehow had a part in the Chamber of Secrets plot, and his personality alteration and subsequent actions were his means of resolving the powerful psychological conflicts within. Bart From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jan 17 21:32:27 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:32:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: <4B535FDF.1080401@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188744 Bart: snip > > The House Elves, which were probably created magically, clearly have > a psychological need to serve. snip Frankly, it is probably insanity to create > an intelligent servant creature more powerful than its masters; the WW > apparently put some very powerful safeties into the House Elf psychology > to prevent them from taking over (probably on the order of Asimov's 3 > Laws of Robotics, which he initially considered to be a basic > engineering solution rather than the philosophical problem it morphed > into). Potioncat: Why do you think the House Elf was created by wizards? Is there something in canon that leads you to think so? IMO, House Elves were inspired by Brownies (the shoemaker kind, not the US Girl Scout or chocolate treat) and would have been existing magical creatures. Wizards somehow managed to take advantage of the House Elf nature over the course of centuries to the point that exists now. I also don't see the Wizarding World having the capability to create such a creature, or the knowledge of psychology to think of the safety features you suggest. The WW's understanding of psychology is pretty limited based on what we see in canon. Potioncat, who will add that the Brownine Girl Scout was also inspried by the brownies of folklore, though none of the ones I knew were particularly eager to help around the house. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jan 18 00:15:38 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:15:38 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: <4B535FDF.1080401@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188745 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188728 Zara discussed CoS Chapter II in and Bart replied in : << The House Elves, which were probably created magically, >> Created magically from what? I'm inclined to believe that they were bred from enchanted and domesticated Goblins, so long ago that wizards have forgotten, but Goblins have not; it is another reason why Goblins distrust wizards, besides the different notions of ownership, and the somewhat different notions of humor. On another tentacle, humans can interbreed with Veelas, humans can interbreed with Goblins (Rowling said off-page that Flitwick has a touch of Goblin blood in him), and I think humans can interbreed with House Elves... maybe Veelas and Goblins and House Elves and all the magical beings who are humanoid are all descended from humans. << clearly have a psychological need to serve. From what we have seen, by House Elf standards, Dobby was insane. One can only assume that it was his servitude to the Malfoys that drove him insane. >> I view House Elves in a more magical and less scientific way. Rather than a psychological need to serve, I view it as a compulsion that was magically placed on their whole species in a long ago time when legendary mages were more powerful than any living in the latest few centuries. While the other House Elves think Dobby had gone mad because he wants to be free and they view freedom as a big disgrace, I think Dobby had a perfectly sane reaction to being so much abused by the Malfoys, who 'reminded' him to punish himself because they found it so pleasantly amusing to witness his physical pain. We have that whole thing with Hermione explaining that Kreachur's loyalty goes to the master who treats him kindly rather than the master who owns him. But while Kreachur was able to switch his loyalty to Miss Bellatrix a few months after being acquired by Sirius, Dobby had spent many years with the Malfoys and no kinder master to switch to. Sometime in all that time with no master available to switch to, he decided to switch to no master. I don't understand why Miss Narcissa wasn't as kind a master to Dobby as Miss Bellatrix was to Kreachur. Miss Bellatrix was not a kind person; she enjoyed hurting humans; I figure the only reasons she would be kind to Kreachur were that she had been taught it was the etiquette of her class to be kind to House Elves or that she had been taught that House Elves turn disloyal and dangerous to masters who treat them cruelly. Miss Narcissa was Miss Bellatrix's sister and they were raised together, so she should have been taught the same. It appears that the senior Crouch, also from an old money family, also accepted a lot of advice, requests, and even criticism from Winky, and never told her to punish herself. As for Mr Lucius, maybe he was not taught that masters should be very careful not to break their House Elves because House Elves are difficult to replace. That would tend to indicate that he was raised in a family with no tradition of owning House Elves, meaning that his family's wealth was recent, such as starting with him, his father, or his grandfather. That would cause the old rich pureblood families to sneer at him behind his back for being nouveau riche. Altho' Rowling's 'Black Family Tree' indicated that rich purebloods with old money are perfectly willing to marry poor purebloods with no money ever, because the pure blood is so much more important to them.... I have always wanted the Malfoys to be *very* old money, already aristocrats when the head Malfoy of that era made an alliance with Salazar Slytherin. If the reason Narcissa joined her husband being cruel to Dobby is that Dobby kept enraging Narcissa with remarks the mirror image of what Krechur said to Sirius and his friends, then Dobby must have been raised in a house with the different values than those of the Malfoys and the Blacks. Some listies used to speculate that Dobby was the Potters' House Elf, given to Malfoy by the office of House Elf Relocation when all the adult Potters were dead and baby Harry's location was 'unknown'. (That would explain why he chose Harry to be his new master when he was free.) But I can't think of anything Dobby could say to infuriate Narcissa that would not reflect badly on his upbringing. If he called her a bad Dark Wizard, a racist, a sadist, a snob, she would just laugh because she is proud of being those things. From bart at moosewise.com Mon Jan 18 00:29:30 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:29:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 2, Dobby's Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B53AB6A.1000103@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188746 Potioncat: > Why do you think the House Elf was created by wizards? Is there something in canon that leads you to think so? > > IMO, House Elves were inspired by Brownies (the shoemaker kind, not the US Girl Scout or chocolate treat) and would have been existing magical creatures. Wizards somehow managed to take advantage of the House Elf nature over the course of centuries to the point that exists now. > Well, since JKR wrote it, it can be anything she wants. However, the psychological necessity to serve wizarding families, and the question as to why their powerful magic has not been put to evil use implies one of three things: 1) They were specifically created by wizards (albeit possibly from other species, possibly even humans). 2) They were enslaved by wizards, and the controls were magically placed into their minds. The reason why I doubt this is that, if this were the case, Hermione would have been right on it. 3) JKR didn't really think about how such a race could come to be. I HOPE that this isn't true, but I think it is the second most likely case. Bart From sherriola at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 03:45:28 2010 From: sherriola at gmail.com (sherriola) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 03:45:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188747 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 3: The Burrow The chapter begins with Harry still locked and barred in his room, having just woken up after a dream. Outside his window he sees Ron, Fred and George in a car, the car hovering outside his second-story room. They tell him they've come to break him out. The twins help Harry get his things out of the locked cupboard using muggle lock picking techniques, and they prepare to leave. Just as Harry is climbing out of his window, he realizes he's almost forgotten Hedwig. Hedwig screeches loudly, waking the Dursleys, and Vernon comes rushing to the room. He tries to prevent Harry's escape, but at last, Harry is settled in the car with the Weasley boys, as well as Hedwig and all his things. In the car, they discuss Dobby's visit and warnings. Harry also learns that Mr. Weasley works in the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts office at the Ministry of Magic, and that Mr. Weasley is the one who charmed the car. They reach the Burrow to find that contrary to their hope, Mrs. Weasley has discovered they are gone. She greets them furiously, alternating between shouting at her children and calmly welcoming and mothering Harry. She continues ranting, as she feeds them all breakfast, and when Ron mentions that the Dursleys had been starving Harry, she softens and piles more food onto his plate. After breakfast, Mrs. Weasley tells the boys to de-gnome the garden, and here we have our first mention of Lockhart and his books, with the boys teasing Mrs. Weasley about liking his books. The boys de-gnome the garden, making a game of it. Later, Mr. Weasley returns home. This is Harry's first meeting with Mr. Weasley. When hearing the details of how Harry came to the Burrow in the flying car, Arthur is at first delighted, eager for details, then switching to try to tell the boys how wrong it was to have flown the car. The chapter ends with Harry's introduction to Ron's room, and Harry tells Ron that his home is the "best house I've ever been in". Discussion Questions 1. How did the beginning of this chapter, combined with the end of the previous chapter, affect your impressions of the Dursleys and their treatment of Harry? 2. Why do you think Vernon tried to prevent Harry's escape? If he feels Harry is such a burden and freak, why not let him go? 3. What did you think of the Weasley rescue and the flying car? 4. Fred and George know how to pick locks by Muggle means. Did you think anything of the fact that they could do this, or did you think it could possibly come up later? 5. What did you think of the Weasley home and the family dynamic? 6. What did you think of Molly's alternating behavior, yelling at her sons, then being sweet and loving to Harry? 7. What did you think of the de-gnoming process: funny, cruel, gross, anything beyond just a humorous scene? 8. We learn about Mr. Weasley's job and his obsession with all things Muggle in this chapter. What were your feelings about his fondness for muggle things, and the fact that he enchanted a car via a loophole in Wizarding law? 9. From this chapter on, the burrow becomes one of Harry's favorite places, and the Weasleys become his favorite family. What do you think draws Harry so much to this quirky home and family? 10. Do you have any other thoughts or questions on this chapter? ---------------------------------------------------------------------NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsdatabase?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 4, At Flourish and Blotts, on January 24, 2010. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). Sherry From danjerri at madisoncounty.net Mon Jan 18 13:53:21 2010 From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (Jerri&Dan Chase) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:53:21 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <554F67E5344B4548B4F0A8212BC098A8@JerriPC> No: HPFGUIDX 188748 > 1. How did the beginning of this chapter, combined with the end of the > previous chapter, affect your impressions of the Dursleys and their > treatment of Harry? It reinforced the Fairy Tale like "wicked step parents" syndrome feeling about this relationship. > 2. Why do you think Vernon tried to prevent Harry's escape? If he feels > Harry is such a burden and freak, why not let him go? Because Vernon's first need is to "control" Harry. Or to feel that he is in control. > 3. What did you think of the Weasley rescue and the flying car? It is fun, but in retrospect I find the near forgetting of Hedwig to be a bit of tragic foreshadowing that brought tears to my eyes. > 4. Fred and George know how to pick locks by Muggle means. Did you think > anything of the fact that they could do this, or did you think it could > possibly come up later? I don't know that I thought much of it at first reading, except that they were really cool and knowledgeable about ways to create mischief. I think that JKR had their characters fully in her mind from the beginning. We got a few glimpses in the first book, in this one we get some more, including this part. > 5. What did you think of the Weasley home and the family dynamic? I like the Weasleys and their home and family. > 6. What did you think of Molly's alternating behavior, yelling at her > sons, > then being sweet and loving to Harry? Typical worried mother. She was angry not so much about the use of the car as because she loved them so much and had been so worried when they were missing. And she couldn't start a formal search as she didn't want to draw attention to the flying car and get her beloved husband into trouble. It was reaction to a long, worry and dread filled night. As for her behavior to Harry, that was the hostess side of her. She had started the series feeling positive about "the boy who lived", she had a glimpse of him on the platform in the first book when he asked her for directions, which makes her the first person in the WW he spoke to, after his one day of glory in Diagon Alley with Hagrid. Then, all summer she had heard about him as Ron's best friend. So, she feels welcoming. And as hostess she wants to show this. Also, if she has heard about the Dursley's treatment of Harry she wants to compensate. > 7. What did you think of the de-gnoming process: funny, cruel, gross, > anything > beyond just a humorous scene? I think that this is just supposed to be slapstick style humor. JKR sometimes tries to send messages and sometimes just tries to be funny. I think that this was written to be a funny scene, and the reader isn't supposed to think of the gnomes as thinking/feeling beings. > 8. We learn about Mr. Weasley's job and his obsession with all things > Muggle > in this chapter. What were your feelings about his fondness for Muggle > things, and the fact that he enchanted a car via a loophole in Wizarding > law? More humor. Also, in retrospect, an important part of his personality that JKR knew about from the beginning, that will come into play later. > 9. From this chapter on, the burrow becomes one of Harry's favorite > places, > and the Weasleys become his favorite family. What do you think draws Harry > so much to this quirky home and family? His strong need for love and acceptance. Also, as Petunia and Vernon are so into control and everything being formal and orderly, something that is opposite is appealing. > 10. Do you have any other thoughts or questions on this chapter? This chapter was my first hint about JKR's pattern of introducing us to new places/parts of the WW in each book as well as new forms of magical transportation. She could have just followed the same plan as book 1, with Harry just going from the Dursleys to Platform 9 3/4 to catch the train. But, JKR wanted her readers and Harry to keep learning a bit more about the WW in each book, allowing us to expand our knowledge of her world as the story progresses. Now, this works wonderfully, but perhaps explains in part some of the inconsistencies that can appear when her fantasy world is analyzed closely. She puts in things as they occur to her, as funny or fitting into the plot and they may or may not fit into the final plan for the series as a whole. Some things she had well thought out from the beginning, like the twins, others she made up as she went along. Many thanks for the wonderful questions and summary. Jerri From no.limberger at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 17:44:02 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:44:02 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness - and Accountability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ef72f91001180944l180b7879k4a636281a316fe02@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188749 >SteveE wrote: > Steve, who also wonders if LV had shown remorse, and had given himself >up and apologized for all his evil whether or not he would ever have been >forgiven by anyone? No.Limberger replies: For LV, in my opinion, remorse would be a sign of weakness, so it is not likely that he would ever show that outwardly. Secondly, given that he had split his soul into various horcruxes, his ability to be remorseful becomes less likely in my opinion. Thirdly, I doubt that he would ever have turned himself in to face trial for the many murders and other crimes that he committed because it would mean spending the rest of his life in Azkaban. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 19 21:46:40 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:46:40 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <7BBBB238A03247C2951ED10FA4223DDE@homemain> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188750 Shelley wrote: (For that matter, was Slytherin mentally ill- he made the > chamber for the Basilisk- Riddle merely set free the creature that lay within!) Carol responds: Forgive me for reacting only to this one side note. I'm not qualified to diagnose Riddle as a psychopath (though, IIRC, a psychopath may seem quite normal to other people and control his violent tendencies until the time is ripe). I just want to say that the death of Moaning Myrtle was not "merely" the result of setting the basilisk free. Riddle knew quite well that its purpose was to rid Hogwarts of Muggle-borns, and he stopped killing them as a boy only because the school was about to be shut down (so her framed Hagrid to keep the school open and to prevent his being discovered as the murderer just as he later framed Hagrid and Hokey). That it was a murder is indicated not only by Diary!Tom's words to Harry, "I'm not interested in killing Muggle-borns *anymore*" but also by the fact that the diary was his first Horcrux. Hers was no accidental death resulting from setting the Basilisk free (which in itself would have been reprehensible enough); the basilisk wasn't free. It was under Tom's control ("It only obeys me"). Moaning Myrtle hears a boy speaking "another language" just before she sees the "great big yellow eyes." Tom must have ordered it to kill her (no doubt knowing her habit of going into that bathroom to cry and certainly knowing that Myrtle was a "Mudblood" just as Diary!Tom ordered it to kill Harry in the CoS. Carol, quoting from memory because she doesn't have time to check page numbers From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 19 21:57:17 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:57:17 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188751 Steve wrote: Actually, Riddle wasn't even a borderline case. Until the age of 18, he couldn't even be diagnosed accurately as having a sociopathic or psychopathic condition...the DSM-IV doesn't become valid til age 18 and until there is a pervasive pattern of that serious behavior. > > > Carol responds: DSMV guidelines aside, he killed four people (Myrtle and the three Riddles) before he was seventeen, made at least one Horcrux by that time, and planned to make five more. The wish to make yourself immortal by killing other people and trapping bits of your soul in an object is not normal by any standard, regardless of whether he was sixteen or sixty. Carol, who doesn't care whether we label Riddle as a psychopath, a sociopath, or neither as long as we agree that he was devious and dangerous at an early age From capndad1 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 18 22:05:45 2010 From: capndad1 at yahoo.com (capndad1) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:05:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: HP COS Chapter 3: The Burrow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188752 RE: 2. Why do you think Vernon tried to prevent Harry's escape? If he feels Harry is such a burden and freak, why not let him go? I agree with the previous post that Vernon needs to control Harry. There are people in the world who are simply not content unless they control, suppress or completely stamp out that which they disapprove of. It stems from fear, of course. RE: 5. What did you think of the Weasley home and the family dynamic? The Weasleys are a big, happy, mostly disorganized family dealing with whatever happens to them as it happens. Their world is filled with love and happy chaos and they thrive on it. RE: 9. From this chapter on, the burrow becomes one of Harry's favorite places, and the Weasleys become his favorite family. What do you think draws Harry so much to this quirky home and family? Harry loves these people because he feels the love that pours out from them, and because they are so completely unlike anyone he as ever encountered before. In a family like that the unusual, especially anything as unusual as Harry, is excepted right along with all the other unusual things that happen of a typical day. capndad1 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 19 23:30:48 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 23:30:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188753 > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets > Chapter 3: The Burrow > > 1. How did the beginning of this chapter, combined with the end of the previous chapter, affect your impressions of the Dursleys and their treatment of Harry? Carol: Obviously, locking a twelve-year-old in his room is worse than making a ten-year-old sleep in a cupboard under the stairs. The Dursleys are moving from neglect to abuse here though I'm not sure I thought about it the first time through. Their treatment of him still seemed like the stepmother's treatment of Cinderella, even down to a bedroom locked from the outside with a key. (The scene from Disney's "Cinderella" of the stepmother dropping the key into her pocket and patting it keeps popping into my mind; in the U.S., our bedrooms lock from the *inside* and they don't have keys, just gadgets you can use to pry open the lock if you accidentally lock yourself out of your own room.) The other image that stays with me is the bars on a second-story (er, first-storey in British English) window. Clearly, Vernon is serious about preventing his escape and wouldn't put it past him, apparently, to fly away--or jump fifteen feet without injury--a magical escape either way. (If Harry can make a pudding hover, as the Dursleys clearly think he can and did, they'll need to take extra precautions to keep him in his room.) But the bars also suggest a prison and may have been intended in part for the psychological effect. But, of course, I didn't think about any of that as I read it the first time. I was enjoying this children's book without taking it seriously. > 2. Why do you think Vernon tried to prevent Harry's escape? If he feels Harry is such a burden and freak, why not let him go? Carol: Maybe Petunia reminded him of her promise to take care of her sister's child or Vernon is vaguely aware of how young Harry still is. More likely, he's afraid that the neighbors will talk (or report him and Petunia to Social Services) if Harry runs away. If he were seventeen rather than twelve, of course, they'd let him go. > 3. What did you think of the Weasley rescue and the flying car? Carol: I was trying to imagine the logistics. How can Harry, Ron, and the trunk all fit in the backseat? And I was interested in personality differences between Fred and George (and already liking George a shade better). I don't remember what else I thought. It was just fun; I wasn't taking it seriously. > 4. Fred and George know how to pick locks by Muggle means. Did you think anything of the fact that they could do this, or did you think it could possibly come up later? Carol: It still seems odd that they would know those tricks. They must have learned them from a Muggle-born friend (Lee Jordan)? I didn't think about it coming in handy later. > > > 5. What did you think of the Weasley home and the family dynamic? Carol: Like everything else in the book (especially Dobby!), the Weasley home seemed over the top. I suspected that the ghoul would play a role later (nothing like "The Ghoul in Pajamas," though!) I like the adult Weasleys (though I've never found yelling to be an effective form of discipline). Then, again, asking your mischievous boys how well the car you've illegally tampered with flew is no deterrent to their behavior, either. > 6. What did you think of Molly's alternating behavior, yelling at her sons, then being sweet and loving to Harry? Carol: A bit exaggerated, but Harry is innocent and her sons have engaged in risky, illegal behavior to rescue him. I think that when she realizes that he *needed* to be rescued, she becomes less concerned about the means they employed to bring it about. > > 7. What did you think of the de-gnoming process: funny, cruel, gross, anything beyond just a humorous scene? Carol: Mildly cruel and not funny. But the gnomes aren't sympathetic, so I didn't let it bother me. (Vanishing kittens, though, or turning turtles into teakettles--JKR doesn't seem to think of animals (or whatever gnomes are) as having the capacity to feel pain (unlike house-elves, which can suffer physically and psychologically). > > 8. We learn about Mr. Weasley's job and his obsession with all things Muggle in this chapter. What were your feelings about his fondness for muggle things, and the fact that he enchanted a car via a loophole in Wizarding law? Carol: It's hard not to like Mr. Weasley despite his faults. He's like a lot of hen-pecked husbands who tinker around in the garage; he's just a wizarding variation on the theme. Of course, he bends the rules to do it, but so do a lot of JKR's characters. I sometimes wish that she'd make following the rules more attractive instead of leaving it to pompous Percy. > > 9. From this chapter on, the burrow becomes one of Harry's favorite places, and the Weasleys become his favorite family. What do you think draws Harry so much to this quirky home and family? Carol: Love, fun, and a sense of belonging. The only other complete family he's ever seen is the dysfunctional Dursleys. Harry knows that having enough money, a nice, clean house, a fancy car, a well-kept yard, and all the toys and clothes you could want doesn't make a family happy. Thanks, Sherry, and great job with the summary and questions! Carol, joining the discussion again after a two-month semi-absence From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Jan 19 23:47:40 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 23:47:40 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188754 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol: > The other image that stays with me is the bars on a second-story (er, first-storey in British English) window. Clearly, Vernon is serious about preventing his escape and wouldn't put it past him, apparently, to fly away--or jump fifteen feet without injury--a magical escape either way. (If Harry can make a pudding hover, as the Dursleys clearly think he can and did, they'll need to take extra precautions to keep him in his room.) Geoff: Just being pedantic. In a house the size of Harry's, UK speakers would only refer to the "first floor". "First storey" (with the "e") would only be used on a multi-storey building. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Wed Jan 20 03:44:26 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:44:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness References: Message-ID: <8841275ED143473D912B0AD098CF95F8@homemain> No: HPFGUIDX 188755 > Shelley wrote: > (For that matter, was Slytherin mentally ill- he made the >> chamber for the Basilisk- Riddle merely set free the creature that lay >> within!) > > Carol responds: > > Forgive me for reacting only to this one side note. I'm not qualified to > diagnose Riddle as a psychopath (though, IIRC, a psychopath may seem quite > normal to other people and control his violent tendencies until the time > is ripe). I just want to say that the death of Moaning Myrtle was not > "merely" the result of setting the basilisk free. Riddle knew quite well > that its purpose was to rid Hogwarts of Muggle-borns, and he stopped > killing them as a boy only because the school was about to be shut down > (so her framed Hagrid to keep the school open and to prevent his being > discovered as the murderer just as he later framed Hagrid and Hokey). > > That it was a murder is indicated not only by Diary!Tom's words to Harry, > "I'm not interested in killing Muggle-borns *anymore*" but also by the > fact that the diary was his first Horcrux. Hers was no accidental death > resulting from setting the Basilisk free (which in itself would have been > reprehensible enough); the basilisk wasn't free. It was under Tom's > control ("It only obeys me"). Moaning Myrtle hears a boy speaking "another > language" just before she sees the "great big yellow eyes." Tom must have > ordered it to kill her (no doubt knowing her habit of going into that > bathroom to cry and certainly knowing that Myrtle was a "Mudblood" just as > Diary!Tom ordered it to kill Harry in the CoS. > > Carol, quoting from memory because she doesn't have time to check page > numbers Carol, my point was- what distinguished one murderer from another? What makes one mentally ill when planning to kill off defenseless Mudbloods, and other just some sick bastard with warped ideology. My point was, Riddle did not think up this original plan- he merely discovered what someone else had already thought through and used, and then repeated the action of that Master Planner. IMHO, at that point, Slytherin was the sicker human being. Anybody can copy-cat a murder. Shelley From winterfell7 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 21 19:17:20 2010 From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 19:17:20 -0000 Subject: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188756 "justcarol67" > Steve wrote: > > Actually, Riddle wasn't even a borderline case. Until the age of 18, he couldn't even be diagnosed accurately as having a sociopathic or psychopathic condition...the DSM-IV doesn't become valid til age 18 and until there is a pervasive pattern of that serious behavior. > > > > > > Carol responds: > DSMV guidelines aside, he killed four people (Myrtle and the three Riddles) before he was seventeen, made at least one Horcrux by that time, and planned to make five more. The wish to make yourself immortal by killing other people and trapping bits of your soul in an object is not normal by any standard, regardless of whether he was sixteen or sixty. > > Carol, who doesn't care whether we label Riddle as a psychopath, a sociopath, or neither as long as we agree that he was devious and dangerous at an early age Steve again: Oh, I completely agree that LV was devious and dangerous at an early age. I was simply applying real diagnostic criteria for LV and using DSMV-IV guidelines to do so as opposed to other posters diagnostic criteria. A true psychopath would have a tough time controlling the violence, would more often show suicidal tendencies and would often have a history of juvinile delinquency. A true sociopath would fly under the radar more socially and would be able to avoid detection longer. And, of course, with dark magic as a part of the equation, it really complicates doing a psychiatric evaluation using real life criteria. I imagine St. Mungo's used their own criteria for their various forms treatment, as partially evidenced by Lockhart's situation. However you reminded me of something I was wondering. If LV was caught at his murders before he reached 18, in Muggle society he may certainly have been tried as an adult. In the WW, would he have been sent to Azkaban at that early an age if his actions had been discovered (and proven)? Keeping in mind wizards reach adulthood at 17, how much of what LV did was done before he reached wizard adulthood? Is there a juvinile system of punishment in the WW? For something as atrocious as what LV was doing, I'd imagine he'd also be punished quite severely. > From wendydhudson at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 20:19:34 2010 From: wendydhudson at gmail.com (WendyH) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:19:34 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188757 Hi - This is my first post here. I'm happy to have found you. 2. Why do you think Vernon tried to prevent Harry's escape? If he feels Harry is such a burden and freak, why not let him go? I think Vernon has a great distaste for the Wizarding World. He knows it exists, yet is in denial about it. If he can keep Harry from leaving, he can continue to deny the world that Harry lives in. To let Harry go would be accepting that the world exists. I also agree with the poster who said Petunia promised to take care of Harry. Perhaps Vernon sees the Wizards as extremely dangerous, so he trys to protect Harry from them. 3. What did you think of the Weasley rescue and the flying car? It's a typical teenage thing to do. They had a car and Harry needed rescuing. Those combined for the perfect teenage misbehavior - pushing the limits with good reason. 4. Fred and George know how to pick locks by Muggle means. Did you think anything of the fact that they could do this, or did you think it could possibly come up later? I thought they were boardering on deliquents. 5. What did you think of the Weasley home and the family dynamic? It is a home filled with love. The family argues and misbehaves, but they know they are always loved. 6. What did you think of Molly's alternating behavior, yelling at her sons, then being sweet and loving to Harry? Molly has complete control of her emotions. She knows what she needs to do to make her displeasure known to her kids, yet can let that go, in an instant, to welcome Harry. 7. What did you think of the de-gnoming process: funny, cruel, gross, anything beyond just a humorous scene? Funny - one of my favorite scenes in the story! 8. We learn about Mr. Weasley's job and his obsession with all things Muggle in this chapter. What were your feelings about his fondness for muggle things, and the fact that he enchanted a car via a loophole in Wizarding law? Mr. Weasley accepts people who are different and he can appreciate their qualities. He doesn't look down on Muggles or feel threatened by them because they are different. In fact, he embraces their differences and admires how they think to accomplish whatever needs to be done. The car - Mr. Weasley is just as creative as Fred and George. He's learned to control it a little better and used the loophole to express his creativity. 9. From this chapter on, the burrow becomes one of Harry's favorite places, and the Weasleys become his favorite family. What do you think draws Harry so much to this quirky home and family? The Weasleys are a family, with all the crazy things families have in them, but their home is warm and their basic needs are met. They also have great capacity for forgiveness and love. WendyH From bart at moosewise.com Thu Jan 21 21:34:28 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:34:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B58C864.9090006@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188758 Steve: > Oh, I completely agree that LV was devious and dangerous at an early age. I was simply applying real diagnostic criteria for LV and using DSMV-IV guidelines to do so as opposed to other posters diagnostic criteria. Bart: As the main poster in question, I just want to differentiate between purposefully choosing the less accurate category (which I clearly did, as I stated at the time I was doing so and why) and doing so out of personal ignorance. Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion. Steve: > before he reached wizard adulthood? Is there a juvinile system of punishment in the WW? For something as atrocious as what LV was doing, I'd imagine he'd also be punished quite severely. It's certainly hinted at. Hagrid, for example, had his wand broken, and apparently put on some sort of list where it was forbidden for him to have a wand; he apparently was either not prohibited from practicing magic, or perhaps the Ministry is not as careful monitoring him as they are with minors, or at least Harry Potter. Frankly, the prohibition of minors using magic outside of school never really held together logically, being one of those many points in the WW where it is probably better not to examine it too closely. Bart From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jan 22 13:20:59 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:20:59 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188759 > Discussion Questions > > 1. How did the beginning of this chapter, combined with the end of the > previous chapter, affect your impressions of the Dursleys and their > treatment of Harry? Potioncat: I agree with Carol; this is a Cinderella story and some of the events are written in fairy-tale measures. Some of it isn't and the back-and-forth nature of the book sometimes jars. So I didn't get too wrapped up in reacting to the Dursleys, I just took them as bad people who were in Harry's way. > > 2. Why do you think Vernon tried to prevent Harry's escape? If he feels > Harry is such a burden and freak, why not let him go? Potioncat: I'm not sure if he thought he had to keep Harry all summer as part of the agreement of taking him or if he just wanted to keep Harry away from magic. If he knew Harry wouldn't come back, maybe he would have been more willing to send him off. So my answer is "I don't know." > > 3. What did you think of the Weasley rescue and the flying car? Potioncat: Wicked! I thought it was lots of fun. > > 4. Fred and George know how to pick locks by Muggle means. Did you think > anything of the fact that they could do this, or did you think it could > possibly come up later? Potioncat: At the time I was surprised they would bother learning Muggle tricks. Now I understand that they can't use magic, so they've found non-magical ways to carry out mischief. > > > 5. What did you think of the Weasley home and the family dynamic? Potioncat: I loved it! I can't be too hard on Molly---Fred and George would drive a mother crazy. And I thought it was funny that Arthur wanted to know how the car did. I have a feeling our responsible Arthur got into mischief himself once-upon-a-time. > > 6. What did you think of Molly's alternating behavior, yelling at her sons, > then being sweet and loving to Harry? Potioncat: Funny. What mom hasn't had an experience where her kids had done something really stupid while there was company around? (What, no one?) And I have to echo Carol; I didn't take a lot of this seriously. I was enjoying the ride. > > 7. What did you think of the de-gnoming process: funny, cruel, gross, anything > beyond just a humorous scene? Potioncat: OK, this is where the ride became uncomfortable. I was left thinking "What is going on here!?" But in RL I wasn't able to take any of the measures recommended to get rid of the chipmunk colony in my yard either. I considered teaching them to sing, but I can't carry a tune. So there's nothing the Weasleys could have done that I would have been ok with. > > 8. We learn about Mr. Weasley's job and his obsession with all things Muggle > in this chapter. What were your feelings about his fondness for muggle > things, and the fact that he enchanted a car via a loophole in Wizarding > law? Potioncat: You know, for some reason at the first reading I thought the loophole was a good thing--that the wizarding law was too restrictive. It was later that I understood that Arthur had created the loophole for his own use. I do think many of the events are not intended to be taken seriously and JKR did feel adults over analyzed her work. At the same time, there is a clear pattern of Us and Them. "We" can side-step the rules but "They" have to follow rules. But, hey, it was Arthur, so it's ok by me. > > 9. From this chapter on, the burrow becomes one of Harry's favorite places, > and the Weasleys become his favorite family. What do you think draws Harry > so much to this quirky home and family? Potioncat: The love, the activity, the activity, the honesty. It was the complete opposite of Privet Drive. > > 10. Do you have any other thoughts or questions on this chapter? No, I'd like to thank Sherry for her excellent questions. And I'd like to encourage everyone else to volunteer to do a chapter. Come on in, the water's fine. See section below for instruction. ;-) > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------NOTE: For > more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter > Discussions" at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsdatabase?method=reportRows&tbl=33 > > Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 4, At Flourish and Blotts, on January 24, 2010. > > If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion, > please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra > space). > > > Sherry > From danjerri at madisoncounty.net Fri Jan 22 13:57:28 2010 From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (jerrichase) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:57:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Discussion Questions > > > > 1. How did the beginning of this chapter, combined with the end of the > > previous chapter, affect your impressions of the Dursleys and their > > treatment of Harry? > > Potioncat: > I agree with Carol; this is a Cinderella story and some of the events >are written in fairy-tale measures. Some of it isn't and the back-and->forth nature of the book sometimes jars. So I didn't get too wrapped >up in reacting to the Dursleys, I just took them as bad people who >were in Harry's way. I think one of the weaknesses of the series as a whole is this "back and forth" nature. Sometimes the reader is supposed to think deeply and look for connections. (Mrs Figg and "well spotted", the time turner, Scabbers, why Moaning Myrtle died in the bathroom, the treatment of house elves, for a few.) In other cases the reader is best off if they consider it to be a fairy tale, or Cinderella Story and don't look too closely. (Mark Evans, treatment of Garden Gnomes, hitting the Dursleys on the head with wine glasses, the missing 24 hours, etc.) So, if for some reason a reader takes seriously a portion that was "just for fun", they can get upset. Just as if a reader takes something as "just for fun" which is a serious plot point, they get fooled. YMMV, of course, but this is the pattern I see in the series. Jerri From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jan 23 00:58:03 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:58:03 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188761 Jerri: > I think one of the weaknesses of the series as a whole is this "back and forth" nature. Sometimes the reader is supposed to think deeply and look for connections. (Mrs Figg and "well spotted", the time turner, Scabbers, why Moaning Myrtle died in the bathroom, the treatment of house elves, for a few.) In other cases the reader is best off if they consider it to be a fairy tale, or Cinderella Story and don't look too closely. (Mark Evans, treatment of Garden Gnomes, hitting the Dursleys on the head with wine glasses, the missing 24 hours, etc.) Pippin: The Weasleys are morally outraged over the mistreatment of Harry,indifferent to the plight of the Elves (Molly'd like one to do the ironing), and downright hostile to the Gnomes. I don't think that's inattention on JKR's part. It's a deliberate irony, IMO, aimed at showing the reader that moral outrage over the plight of the oppressed is a lot less consistent and a lot more category dependent than the innocent believe. IMO, it's something she very much wants us to think about. The series overall takes a consistent attitude towards sentient rights:whatever lofty beliefs the characters might have in the rights of others to justice or freedom, they exist only for those who have the willingness and ability to claim them. Pippin From bart at moosewise.com Sat Jan 23 05:09:26 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:09:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5A8486.30808@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188762 pippin_999 wrote: > The Weasleys are morally outraged over the mistreatment of Harry,indifferent to the plight of the Elves (Molly'd like one to do the ironing), and downright hostile to the Gnomes. I don't think that's inattention on JKR's part. It's a deliberate irony, IMO, aimed at showing the reader that moral outrage over the plight of the oppressed is a lot less consistent and a lot more category dependent than the innocent believe. IMO, it's something she very much wants us to think about. Bart: There was one aspect of house elves that confused the hell out of me. Where do new house elves come from? Is it that they can only die a violent death? From Dobby's ability to act after severe self-punishment, it does appear that they have a very rapid healing capability. Can they have children? If so, what happens to them? When Winky was freed, I know that the Hogwarts kitchens took her in, but it seemed to me that the ideal place for a house elf, based on what we see of their psychology, would be a loving but well-organized home. The Weasleys would have been a perfect place for Winky to go; they would have treated her as one of the family (for better or worse). And it's not like she did much for the plotline. And note that, in spite of her protestations of being a "good house elf", she showed very little loyalty to her new job. It looks more and more to me that house elves are a form of golems or homonculi. Bart From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 23 18:57:23 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 Jan 2010 18:57:23 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/24/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1264273043.510.85459.m10@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188763 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 24, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 2 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 20:02:53 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:02:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: <4B5A8486.30808@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Can they have children? zanooda: Yes, remember in GoF Winky saying: "I is looking for after Crouches all my life, and my mother is doing it before me, and my grandmother is doing it before her..." (p.381 Am.ed.). There is something wrong with this picture though - where are the father and the grandfather :-)? Working in another household? From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 21:28:32 2010 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 21:28:32 -0000 Subject: Chapt Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow - Elf Love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188765 --- "zanooda2" wrote: > > --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > Can they have children? > > > zanooda: > > Yes, remember in GoF Winky saying: "I is looking for after Crouches all my life, and my mother is doing it before me, and my grandmother is doing it before her..." (p.381 Am.ed.). There is something wrong with this picture though - where are the father and the grandfather :-)? Working in another household? > I suspect it is much like slaves are breed. I have a male house-elf and you have a female house-elf. We decide we need more house-elves. So, my male breeds with your female. The first off-spring elf goes to you, and the second off-spring elf goes to me. Now we both have more house-elves to carry on. Seems a little cold though. Judging from Dobby, elves are capable of compassion and caring, can we, by extension, assume the carries over into love, and more importantly romantic love? Can house-elves fall in love? Or, are they simply driven by a biological desire to serve, rather than a biological desire to procreate. Humans, you can't stop them from pro-creating, whether motived by lust or love, they will find a way. House-elves clearly have a complex range of emotion, but does it extent to romatic love, and how far will they go to get it? Humans will kill thousands, even millions, for love. But will elves betray their masters for love? ...don't know. Steve/bboyminn From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jan 24 02:08:02 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 02:08:02 -0000 Subject: CoS chapter 2 discussion / gnomes / House Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188766 Sherry discussed Cos Chapter 3 in : << 2. Why do you think Vernon tried to prevent Harry's escape? If he feels Harry is such a burden and freak, why not let him go? >> At the time, I thought Vernon tried to prevent Harry's escape out of sheer cruelty, but after later list discussion of later volumes suggested that the reason the Dursleys agreed to keep Harry was that Dumbledore promised to protect them from murderous wizards as long as Harry lived with them, maybe Vernon tried to prevent his escape to keep from losing the protection. (As Potioncat wrote in : << I'm not sure if he thought he had to keep Harry all summer as part of the agreement of taking him >>) << 6. What did you think of Molly's alternating behavior, yelling at her sons, then being sweet and loving to Harry? >> I thought it was crazy, and would have made her kids feel worse (and blame Harry for it), but eventually I realised that she always behaved like that and they were used to it and understood that it was just because she was something of a drama queen. << 7. What did you think of the de-gnoming process: funny, cruel, gross, anything beyond just a humorous scene? >> It was kind of funny, but struck me as remarkably inefficient. If you throw the Gnomes far away, still they eventually come back. It would be more permanent to kill them, or to put them in cages which are taken to zoos with animals that eat them, or throw them into the ocean and drown them. Of course all those things are not funny and are (to me) unnervingly cruel, but at least the poisoning varmints option is part of real life. As Potioncat wrote in : << But in RL I wasn't able to take any of the measures recommended to get rid of the chipmunk colony in my yard either. >> If I had a lawn, I don't think I would care if rodents and their like tore it up and made it look ugly, but I ought to care if they bring rabies and bubonic plague and tularemia and a legion of rickettsia diseases that could infect my pets and me. << 9. From this chapter on, the burrow becomes one of Harry's favorite places, and the Weasleys become his favorite family. What do you think draws Harry so much to this quirky home and family? >> It says later in canon that Harry likes the Burrow because it's the first place he ever was where it seemed that everyone liked him. List discussion pointed out that canon did NOT say that it was a place where everyone seemed to like each other. But even if Percy and the twins pointedly dislike each other, Percy, Fred, and George all like Harry. There is some question in my mind about which Weasleys would have liked him if he had been neither a famous person nor a member of Gryffindor's Quidditch team. Pippin wrote in : << The Weasleys are morally outraged over the mistreatment of Harry, indifferent to the plight of the Elves (Molly'd like one to do the ironing), and downright hostile to the Gnomes. I don't think that's inattention on JKR's part. It's a deliberate irony, IMO, aimed at showing the reader that moral outrage over the plight of the oppressed is a lot less consistent and a lot more category dependent than the innocent believe. IMO, it's something she very much wants us to think about. >> I disagree with you about Rowling's intention. To me, Rowling's okay with downright hostility to the Gnomes because they're just animals (as Carol mentioned in ). If she objects to abuse of animals in real life, she doesn't show it in the Potter series, and she doesn't make a less unprivileged category for animals who can use some human-recognized language, like sign-language apes in real life and speaking gnomes in fantasy. Well, that gets complicated because the hippogriff got a hearing before being executed, and the hippogriff doesn't speak language altho' apparently it can understand when it's being insulted in language. It seems to be okay with Rowling for Mrs Weasley to want to own a House Elf, because she would treat it reasonably kindly; Rowling can't object too much to House Elves being owned because the series ends with the hero owning a House Elf. All along I said that Hermione got it wrong; the plight of the House Elves was not they were enslaved but that they were abused. Her organization should have been a Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to House Elves rather than an Anti-Slavery Society. Some Weasleys would have joined a SPCHE if they had known how some owners treated House Elves. The series being complete, Rowling clearly views the House Elves as people rather than as animals, but as a kind of people, different from humans, for whose correct treatment our only analogy is animals such as dogs. We, unlike the Potterverse narratorial voice, know that dogs should not be burnt or bludgeoned as punishment nor for 'fun', but when dogs are taken away from abusive owners, they are given to kinder owners, not set free to run feral. Dogs are trained to do jobs for humans, like guide dogs and bomb-sniffing dogs, sheep dogs and hunting dogs, for which they are not paid and do not get vacations; I share the general belief that the dogs consider the relationship with and praise from their handlers to be sufficient reward and they want neither vacations nor manumission. I certainly agree with all the listies who said that saying that a certain group of people is different from us and doesn't want freedom or whatever is very dangerous, because historically this has been said of many groups of humans as an excuse for oppressing them. On another tentacle, assuming that all people are just like us, even non-human people, is nowadays condemned as cultural imperialism. Bart Lidofsky wrote in : << The Weasleys would have been a perfect place for Winky to go >> Yes. But this seems to be another self-defeating attitude of House Elves: they seem to be snobs who want to serve only in castles and richly furnished buildings. That is contrary to the folklore brownie who helps good housewives in tiny, poor, but clean cottages and cabins. No, I don't think a House Elf would desert its owner just because the owner moved to a shack, but an owner-less House Elf wouldn't join up. Steve bboyminnn wrote in : << I suspect it is much like slaves are breed. I have a male house-elf and you have a female house-elf. We decide we need more house-elves. So, my male breeds with your female. The first off-spring elf goes to you, and the second off-spring elf goes to me. Now we both have more house-elves to carry on. >> Yes, I know that some slave owners were careful to have some big strong male slave beget children on many female slaves regardless of how they might feel about it. But female slaves also had children who were not deliberately bred, some as a result of pair-bonding love with a male slave and thus having a family. That's why the male slave whose wife and children were sold away is a common plot element in novels. So I've always imagined that House Elves are normally let out one night a month to go a House Elf social gathering (perhaps explaining how Winky and Dobby got to know each other; altho' I suppose it could have been that the Crouches were house guests of the Malfoys at some point) and select their own partners for short, fertile, romances. In that case, there would have to be some decision which owner got the offspring, and it seems logical to me to have a rule that female offspring went with the mother and male offspring went with the father. That would explain Winky's matrilinege. Except that Dobby's ambition was to have his head up on the wall next to his *mother*... << House-elves clearly have a complex range of emotion, but does it extent to romatic love, and how far will they go to get it? Humans will kill thousands, even millions, for love. But will elves betray their masters for love? >> I said 'romance' because I imagine them motivated by something like lust, but with affection, rather than by a desire to make more slaves for their owner, but House Elves couldn't possibly be allowed to feel romantic love. Whoever made or enslaved them would have been sure to prevent it, because romantic love is such a danger, as you pointed out. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 24 18:00:14 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Jan 2010 18:00:14 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/24/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1264356014.18.89405.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188767 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 24, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bart at moosewise.com Sun Jan 24 20:39:50 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:39:50 -0500 Subject: Molly Weasley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5CB016.6090708@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188768 Catlady (Rita Prince wrote: > << 6. What did you think of Molly's alternating behavior, yelling at her sons, then being sweet and loving to Harry? >> > > I thought it was crazy, and would have made her kids feel worse (and blame Harry for it), but eventually I realised that she always behaved like that and they were used to it and understood that it was just because she was something of a drama queen. Bart: It's a common behavior: Family is one thing, guests are another. I note that, as the books go on, and Molly thinks of Harry more as family and less as a guest, her attitude towards Harry becomes more like her attitude towards her own family. In a another way, it's a subtle putdown; Harry, being brought up by those horrible Muggles, doesn't know any better, but Molly's kids, who received a proper upbringing, SHOULD know better. It is not unusual that the one child to turn against the Weasley's was the "good" child. All the Weasley kids show signs of being intelligent and creative, and Molly, having to deal with so many at once, has to use a heavy hand to prevent disasters from taking place. And remember, as a lower middle class (not poor, no matter WHAT the Malfoys say) family, where every penny has to be watched, it doesn't take much for there to be a disaster. There's also a Depression-era mentality (I admittedly do not know exactly what the Depression culture was like in Great Britain) that the best place you can be is to have a job for a nice, stable company, or, even better, the government. The Weasley kids thought around that. Even though Charlie and Bill got stable jobs, they got stable jobs that allowed for a great deal of independence and creativity. Fred and George really brought out the mentality with their mother. I had a friend who was an extremely talented artist, and who could have made an excellent living in commercial art (for those into "Furry Fandom" it was Deal Whitley; my wife and I were old friends with his wife). He had parents like the Weasleys, except he let his parents convince him that art was fine for a hobby, but it was no way to make a living, so he took low-level office work that paid far less than he could easily have been making as an artist. And Molly's discouraging of F&G's joke & novelty business just brought to mind what happened to Deal, except that F&G were sufficiently strong-willed to ignore their mother. I don't know what talents Percy had, but what they were, he put under trying to be exactly the sort of son his parents raised him to be. It is not at all surprising that, when his family joined the newly formed Order of the Phoenix, Percy took it as a betrayal of him, rather than seeing what he did as a betrayal of them. Ron got the worst of all the family, because he had the headstrong nature and the creativity, and maybe even the intelligence, but what he lacked was self-confidence, being placed in one position after another designed to destroy it. Ginny might have ended up that way, but I suspect that the early experience of being taken over by the diary gave her a major fear of and a determination not to be, ever, overwhelmed by another's personality (nor, to her credit, to try to overwhelm someone else's personality). Bart From k12listmomma at comcast.net Mon Jan 25 15:52:25 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:52:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly Weasley References: <4B5CB016.6090708@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188769 > Catlady (Rita Prince wrote: >> << 6. What did you think of Molly's alternating behavior, yelling at her >> sons, then being sweet and loving to Harry? >> >> >> I thought it was crazy, and would have made her kids feel worse (and >> blame Harry for it), but eventually I realised that she always behaved >> like that and they were used to it and understood that it was just >> because she was something of a drama queen. > > Bart: > It's a common behavior: Family is one thing, guests are another. I > note that, as the books go on, and Molly thinks of Harry more as family > and less as a guest, her attitude towards Harry becomes more like her > attitude towards her own family. In a another way, it's a subtle > putdown; Harry, being brought up by those horrible Muggles, doesn't know > any better, but Molly's kids, who received a proper upbringing, SHOULD > know better. Shelley: Like Bart, I think her behavior is pretty typical. The larger family, the more you have to control the chaos that could occur. Strictness, having control, is one way to ensure the peace. Also, the more unrulely the kids, the more you have to crack down on things, such as dungbombs, that could really ruin a peaceful family dinner or having company over. Parents in this situation either do as Luna's dad did- which was to be permissive of all the weird stuff, or as Molly did, which was to try and control it. I strongly disagree that Molly is a drama queen, rather she feels that she has to control the situation or her kids have proved that they will drive the chaos to take over and everything will fall apart. She's just trying to be a good parent, as best as she knows how. Harry, on the other hand, has done nothing to prove that he's going to be anything but a gentleman, and Molly doesn't need to control him. Their first meeting doesn't have Harry setting dungbombs on the Hogwarts train or some other activity where he shows he needs a firm hand to set him straight, and I think Molly just gives him the benefit of the doubt that he's just going to behave naturally. I disagree that Molly's kids "should know better"- what you are looking at is a matter of personalities. All of the Weasley kids are extroverts, full of energy, intelligence and exuberance. They are lively by their own natures, not some quiet mousey kids who would never think of doing anything that would draw attention to themselves. It's not the same as purposely misbehaving. They don't get into trouble on purpose, but put that lively bunch together and you can get a synergy of that exuberant energy that could lead to things quickly spiraling out of control, so that Molly's guidance has to be to nudge the situation back into calm again. Harry's behavior has nothing to do with his living conditions, rather the books constantly show that he makes right choices in how he acts. He's not an attention seeker, as the Daily Prophet and Rita Skeeter tried to paint him, but would have always been the kind of student that teachers always love- quiet, respectful, mature for his age. Different personalities, but not one wrong and the other right. I'd rather date an exuberant Fred or George for the constant new excitement they bring into each day, than a dull, predictable Harry. Some might prefer the calm and mature Harry to the attention hogging Fred or George. I imagine having one in the house that she didn't have to worry about was a refreshing change for Molly, and that's part of why she loved him so. I have seen nothing that suggests that either he nor Hermione did anything to add to her stress level, and that's why they were "no trouble at all" when they visited. I also agree with Bart that Molly's attitude does change toward Harry as time goes on and he "becomes family"- she has no problem with ordering him to do laundry and muck out the chicken coop, and other chores that she is dishing out to her own kids. She works him every bit as hard as one of her own. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jan 25 18:42:44 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:42:44 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188770 > zanooda: > > Yes, remember in GoF Winky saying: "I is looking for after Crouches all my life, and my mother is doing it before me, and my grandmother is doing it before her..." (p.381 Am.ed.). There is something wrong with this picture though - where are the father and the grandfather :-)? Working in another household? Potioncat: I think JKR may have intended to show that Winky's family had served the Crouches for many generations, rather than hinting at how the service itself was organized. It seems Kreacher says something about his mother or grandmother too--but I'm not sure of that. I don't get the feel that House Elves are bred like stock, but that the the children may go with the mother's household. (As in slavery in the US) I imagine that offspring might go off with adult children of the house as they go to their own homes. Just a guess and I suppose we're all free to imagine any scenario. I think it's very interesting that no one was willing to pay a House elf, though. From bart at moosewise.com Mon Jan 25 18:59:48 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:59:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5DEA24.4020303@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188771 potioncat wrote: > I think it's very interesting that no one was willing to pay a House elf, though. Which goes to the idea of their being homoculi/golems. If you had a computer with a very friendly interface, would you pay it a salary? Bart From margdean56 at gmail.com Mon Jan 25 21:56:11 2010 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:56:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: <4B5DEA24.4020303@moosewise.com> References: <4B5DEA24.4020303@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188772 On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > > potioncat wrote: > > I think it's very interesting that no one was willing to pay a House elf, though. > > Which goes to the idea of their being homoculi/golems. If you had a > computer with a very friendly interface, would you pay it a salary? It also harks back to the folklore about brownies and similar creatures, who often take offense and leave if offered any sort of compensation apart from a bowl of milk. --Margaret Dean From CliffVDY at juno.com Mon Jan 25 23:20:52 2010 From: CliffVDY at juno.com (Cliff) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:20:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: <4B5DEA24.4020303@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188773 > Which goes to the idea of their being homoculi/golems. If you had a > computer with a very friendly interface, would you pay it a salary? > > Bart > Dobby goes to work at Hogwarts, where he actually receives payment for his labors (GF21). --------- Cliff From wgsilvester at shaw.ca Sun Jan 24 16:49:14 2010 From: wgsilvester at shaw.ca (william) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:49:14 -0000 Subject: Chapt Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow - Elf Love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188774 > > --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > Can they have children? > > > > zanooda: > > Yes, remember in GoF Winky saying: "I is looking for after Crouches all my life, and my mother is doing it before me, and my grandmother is doing it before her..." (p.381 Am.ed.). There is something wrong with this picture though - where are the father and the grandfather :-)? > > > > Steve/bboyminn: > I suspect it is much like slaves are breed. I have a male house-elf and you have a female house-elf. We decide we need more house-elves. So, my male breeds with your female. The first off-spring elf goes to you, and the second off-spring elf goes to me. Now we both have more house-elves to carry on. > William: I agree with Steve that house-elves were probably breed. I suspect Winky probably never knew who her father and grandfather were and therefore does not mention them. From kenadams705 at btinternet.com Mon Jan 25 19:28:12 2010 From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:28:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: <4B5DEA24.4020303@moosewise.com> References: <4B5DEA24.4020303@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <557335.42967.qm@web87006.mail.ird.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188775 potioncat wrote: > I think it's very interesting that no one was willing to pay a House elf, though. Bart: > Which goes to the idea of their being homoculi/golems. If you had a computer with a very friendly interface, would you pay it a salary? KEN: No but I would be willing to pay a higher purchase price. I think from the wizard's pov if they all stick together in not paying they are likely to get cheaper house elves. From bart at moosewise.com Tue Jan 26 02:34:36 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:34:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 3, The Burrow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5E54BC.5070305@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188776 Cliff wrote: >> Which goes to the idea of their being homoculi/golems. If you had a >> computer with a very friendly interface, would you pay it a salary? >> >> Bart >> >> > Dobby goes to work at Hogwarts, where he actually receives payment for his labors (GF21). Dobby was insane, at least by house elf standards. Bart [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From puduhepa98 at aol.com Tue Jan 26 04:00:55 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (puduhepa98) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 04:00:55 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 4, At Flourish and Blotts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188777 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 4: At Flourish and Blotts. The chapter begins with Harry enjoying wizarding life with the Weasleys. Ginny is embarrassed whenever she sees Harry. The children receive their book list and plan to go to Diagon Alley to buy supplies the same day that Hermione will be there. Harry overhears the Weasleys' concerns about finances. Harry gets to use the Floo transport for the first time and gets lost in Borgin and Burkes. He notices a number of weird items on the shelves, but before he can leave, Draco and his father show up. He hides in a large cabinet, but does not close the door. Mr. Malfoy is trying to sell some of his dark objects while Draco complains about Harry and Hermione and views the items for sale. He particularly wants a severed human hand. When the Malfoys leave, Harry slips out, but does not know where he is. He is accosted by an ugly witch. Just at that time, Hagrid shows up and takes him back to Diagon Alley. He tells Harry Knockturn Alley is a dodgy place. Harry asks why Hagrid was there and he says he wanted to buy Flesh Eating Slug Repellent. Harry and Hagrid meet Hermione and the Weasleys, who are delighted to see he is safe, and they go into Gringotts. Hermione's parents are there. Harry and the Weasleys take the goblin transport to their vaults. Harry is embarrassed again because the Weasleys have very little, while he has piles of goblin gold. The characters all split up to shop, but meet later at Flourish and Blotts to buy books. Harry is publicly embarrassed by Gilderoy Lockhart who is signing his latest book for his fans. He insists on having his picture taken with Harry for the Prophet, gives Harry a set of his works (all of which are required reading at Hogwarts this year) and announces he is the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. On the way out Harry is accosted by the Malfoys who insult him and the Weasleys. Mr. Malfoy picks up one of Ginny's books and sneers at its condition. Mr. Weasley and Mr. Malfoy exchange words and Arthur Weasely attacks Mr. Malfoy. Hagrid breads up the fight and Mr. Malfoy returns Ginny's book. Everyone leaves for their respective destinations. 1.This chapter appears to be just a transition between Harry's time at the Dursleys and Hogwarts, but it is in fact a vital chapter in terms of characters, the wizarding world, and the overall plot. How many places, characters, practices, and things of interest are we introduced to in this chapter? 2. Do you believe Hagrid was looking for Flesh Eating Slug Repellant in Knockturn Alley? 3. What could have happened to Harry, if Hagrid had not happened by at that time? 4. Would Harry have vanished, if he had closed the door on the cabinet? 5. Why didn't the second year students have to buy more than the one spell book and the books for DADA? 6. Is Harry right that his goblin gold would not be useful in the Muggle world? 7. Hagrid says at the end of the chapter that the Malfoys are rotten to the core, the whole family, "bad blood, that's what it is". This is the first time we hear about blood in the WW. What does Hagrid mean? Does he think evil character can be inherited? Is this a common opinion in the WW? How does it fit in with other uses of blood in the series? Please feel free to add pertinent questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsdatabase?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 5, The Whomping Willow, on January 31, 2010. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). Nikkalmati From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 26 19:44:16 2010 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:44:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 4, At Flourish and Blotts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188778 I'm a little rusty but I'll give this a shot! 1.This chapter appears to be just a transition between Harry's time at the Dursleys and Hogwarts, but it is in fact a vital chapter in terms of characters, the wizarding world, and the overall plot. How many places, characters, practices, and things of interest are we introduced to in this chapter? Janelle: Way more than we're led to believe- that's for sure! This is one of those great moments where we see things that will come back to haunt us- not only at the end of this book- but later in the series as well. We meet Lucius Malfoy, Gilderoy Lockhart, Mr. Borgin (or is it Burke?). We first see Nocturn Alley, Borgin & Burkes, The Floo Network. Things are hidden from us: Riddle's Diary and the Vanishing Cabinet. Lots of stuff going on here! 2. Do you believe Hagrid was looking for Flesh Eating Slug Repellant in Knockturn Alley? Janelle: Yes, I do. 3. What could have happened to Harry, if Hagrid had not happened by at that time? Janelle: Who knows? He could have fallen into the hands of some creepy witches or wizards as an amusement, or he could have had his first encounter with a Death Eater (although, technically, I guess he did!) 4. Would Harry have vanished, if he had closed the door on the cabinet? Janelle: Yes- I think he would have found himself at Hogwarts- what an interesting twist that would have been! Remember that the Vanishing Cabinet at Hogwarts isn't damaged until later in this book when Nearly Headless Nick convinces Peeves to break it to save Harry from getting into trouble! 5. Why didn't the second year students have to buy more than the one spell book and the books for DADA? Janelle: I guess the books they'd bought the previous year covered enough material to last for a couple years. What I always wondered is why the Weasleys have to buy 5 copies of Lockhart's books- can't they share? Especially since they're supposedly supposed to have read them all before school starts anyway? 6. Is Harry right that his goblin gold would not be useful in the Muggle world? Janelle: Interesting question- I'm not sure. He probably could've taken it to a museum or something as a rare treasure and been paid for it in Muggle money... 7. Hagrid says at the end of the chapter that the Malfoys are rotten to the core, the whole family, "bad blood, that's what it is". This is the first time we hear about blood in the WW. What does Hagrid mean? Does he think evil character can be inherited? Is this a common opinion in the WW? How does it fit in with other uses of blood in the series? Janelle: This one is trickier! I don't think that Hagrid is thinking that evil is literally something in the blood- I think he's speaking more generally about similarities between father and son personality-wise. But, looking at the bigger picture, it's possible that Hagrid's words do have some deeper meaning attached to them. The Malfoys are pure-bloods and they consider everyone who isn't to have "bad blood", however, there aren't so many pure-bloods left and so maybe all the intermarriages and stuff that has taken place in order to keep pure-bloods "pure" has polluted their blood. I'm not saying that this pollution manifests itself as evil, but maybe there's just something not quite right with their blood. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Jan 26 23:40:10 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:40:10 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 4, At Flourish and Blotts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jelly92784" wrote: Janelle: > I'm a little rusty but I'll give this a shot! 7. Hagrid says at the end of the chapter that the Malfoys are rotten to the core, the whole family, "bad blood, that's what it is". This is the first time we hear about blood in the WW. What does Hagrid mean? Does he think evil character can be inherited? Is this a common opinion in the WW? How does it fit in with other uses of blood in the series? Janelle: > This one is trickier! I don't think that Hagrid is thinking that evil is literally something in the blood- I think he's speaking more generally about similarities between father and son personality-wise. But, looking at the bigger picture, it's possible that Hagrid's words do have some deeper meaning attached to them. The Malfoys are pure-bloods and they consider everyone who isn't to have "bad blood", however, there aren't so many pure-bloods left and so maybe all the intermarriages and stuff that has taken place in order to keep pure-bloods "pure" has polluted their blood. I'm not saying that this pollution manifests itself as evil, but maybe there's just something not quite right with their blood. Geoff: Jut a quick answer to one question. Actually, it isn't tricky. "Bad blood" is sometimes used in UK English with two possible meanings, One in the context of speaking about a person or a group, exactly as Hagrid is doing here.... "Don't have anything to do with him. There's bad blood in that family". The second is when two groups or families or individuals are in opposition to each other: "There's been bad blood between John and Michael for years". So, I would say that Hagrid is using the phrase in the context of my first example above. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jan 27 02:41:06 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 02:41:06 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 4, At Flourish and Blotts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188780 > > > 1.This chapter appears to be just a transition between Harry's time at the Dursleys and Hogwarts, but it is in fact a vital chapter in terms of characters, the wizarding world, and the overall plot. How many places, characters, practices, and things of interest are we introduced to in this chapter? Potioncat: Well, let's see. We see the Arthur/Lucius rivalry, Ginny's bravery, Percy's ambitious nature, Knockturn Alley, the vanishing cabinet, the hand of glory, the opal necklace. Perhaps reason to think that even good wizards might need something dark (Hagrid). We get a glimpse of Lockhart's character. We get the setup ?though we don't see?the diary being put into Ginny's cauldron. > > 2. Do you believe Hagrid was looking for Flesh Eating Slug Repellant in Knockturn Alley? Potioncat: Honestly, I don't know. He hangs out in dodgy places, and he doesn't always follow the rules, so who knows what he may have been looking for. > > 3. What could have happened to Harry, if Hagrid had not happened by at that time? Potioncat: Nothing good, that's for sure?something even darker than anything Dickens came up with. > > 4. Would Harry have vanished, if he had closed the door on the cabinet? Potioncat: I'm not sure. But maybe. Are we sure the Vanishing Cabinet in Hogwarts was working? And are we sure that's the only other one? > > 5. Why didn't the second year students have to buy more than the one spell book and the books for DADA? Potioncat: Because the other texts were good for more than one year? Very good questions. I'll answer the others later. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 27 03:04:46 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 03:04:46 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 4, At Flourish and Blotts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188781 Nikkalmati: 1. This chapter appears to be just a transition between Harry's time at the Dursleys and Hogwarts, but it is in fact a vital chapter in terms of characters, the wizarding world, and the overall plot. How many places, characters, practices, and things of interest are we introduced to in this chapter? Alla: Well, I would say the whole chapter devoted to places of interest, Knockturn Alley and Diagon Alley being the major ones, but we also see of course Borgin's store and we meet dear Gilderoy, and we see the infamous Hand of Glory (remembers discussions fondly). And you know, this chapter also made me think about our discussions about Ginny, I dunno, while Ron's comment that Ginny usually never shuts up is probably not enough foreshadowing for me to introduce Ginny of OOP and the following books, her standing up to Malfoys, I thought was enough a plenty. Sorry, but standing up to one of the most powerful dark wizarding family in WW is not IMO the act of girl who is shy by all means. Sorry for an aside, but this reread actually made me much happier about Ginny, I forgot how forceful she sounds in this chapter and made me believe more that yes, it was meant all along to show that Ginny just acts shy, timid, around Harry. IMO of course. 2. Do you believe Hagrid was looking for Flesh Eating Slug Repellant in Knockturn Alley? Alla: Sure, before DH I would not even given it a second thought, now I would still say yes, but with the disclaimer that he could have been here watching Harry on Dumbledore's command. 3. What could have happened to Harry, if Hagrid had not happened by at that time? Alla: You mean whether that witch was a serious threat? No clue, if she was one of DE, then I would say yes sure. 6. Is Harry right that his goblin gold would not be useful in the Muggle world? Alla: No, I do not think so, if Grangers were exchanging muggle currency, I think it could be exchanged the other way too. 7. Hagrid says at the end of the chapter that the Malfoys are rotten to the core, the whole family, "bad blood, that's what it is". This is the first time we hear about blood in the WW. What does Hagrid mean? Does he think evil character can be inherited? Is this a common opinion in the WW? How does it fit in with other uses of blood in the series? Alla: Yes, my answer is unequivocal yes, I think according to the books evil character could be inherited, it does not have to be so however. I think according to the books person can change its inheritance so to speak, but to a certain degree (Sirius choosing Gryffindor contrary to what parents wanted and I would guess Hat granting him his ways, but him also remaining a Black in many other ways). JMO of course and thanks for the great questions. Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jan 29 13:51:28 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:51:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 4, At Flourish and Blotts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188782 > > 7. Hagrid says at the end of the chapter that the Malfoys are rotten to the core, the whole family, "bad blood, that's what it is". This is the first time we hear about blood in the WW. What does Hagrid mean? Does he think evil character can be inherited? Is this a common opinion in the WW? How does it fit in with other uses of blood in the series? Potioncat: The Webster's New World Dictionary has 12 meanings for the noun blood. Five of them have to do with a biological liquid. The other 7 have to with family or group connection. Twelve meanings of blood. How ironic. The WW families we see tend to have strong traits, and the family members are easily identified. There are differences within the family, but certain traits run true. It's typical to refer to that sort of thing as being in the blood. Hagrid speaks in absolutes. He's one who says all bad wizards come from Slytherin. I think he does believe that the Malfoys' evil nature runs in their blood. How Hagrid would explain himself given his mother and the type of blood giants have, I cannot say. I suppose he was fortunate to get his blood from the Hagrid line. By the same token, Hagrid values blood. In a few years he'll meet a brother he never knew about and because they are of the same blood, he'll bring Grawp home--a more loving parallel to Petunia and Harry. Blood has an important role, or Lily's sacrifice would not have created protective magic between Harry and Petunia. She didn't even have to love him for the bond to work. She only had to provide him a roof. There is a strong theme of the power of blood and family. Yet at times it is undermined by the ability of the individual to be different. I'm not sure if JKR thinks a person can overcome blood or if she thinks those characters managed to get a different set of traits. > > Please feel free to add pertinent questions. Just an observation. During the Malfoys at Borgins and Burkes, JKR has Lucius speak "darkly." I love it! The other time that jumps out is later on when Sirius has a "bark of laughter." Thanks again for interesting questions. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jan 30 06:18:08 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:18:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 4, At Flourish and Blotts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 188783 > > 7. Hagrid says at the end of the chapter that the Malfoys are rotten to the core, the whole family, "bad blood, that's what it is". This is the first time we hear about blood in the WW. What does Hagrid mean? Does he think evil character can be inherited? Is this a common opinion in the WW? How does it fit in with other uses of blood in the series? > > Potioncat: > > I think he does believe that the Malfoys' evil nature runs in their blood. How Hagrid would explain himself given his mother and the type of blood giants have, I cannot say. Pippin: What's even more incongruous and ironic is that it's Draco's blood prejudice that provokes Hagrid in the first place. I don't think there's actually anything bad about Malfoy blood any more than there's something dirty about Muggle blood. In both cases it's easier to invent and blame an imaginary distinction between Us and Them than to think about why They are different -- if they are at all. In this case, Hagrid is proving that he's not that different. He's just as prejudiced in his own way as Draco. But he's not as cruel, not to Draco, anyway. Hagrid doesn't try to run the Malfoys out of Hogwarts or consider it his business to remind them constantly of how inferior they are. I suppose he might, considering his treatment of the Dursleys, if he wasn't afraid of the consequences. I think JKR would like us to see that cruelty is something we're all capable of -- or would be if we weren't afraid of the consequences. I think that's a clue to the way she uses humor in the series, first inviting us to laugh at what happens to the Dursleys, and then making us feel slightly ashamed of ourselves, and of Hagrid, Fred, George and even Dumbledore. Draco isn't afraid of the consequences (yet), and consequently, he's always running up against them. But the books show that cruelty does have negative consequences, though they may not become apparent for a long time. And because they may not be apparent, it becomes a matter of faith. One must choose to believe that, in the long run, the personal satisfaction of getting nasty wouldn't be worth it. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 30 19:01:30 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 30 Jan 2010 19:01:30 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/31/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1264878090.12.26650.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 188784 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! 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