[HPforGrownups] Re: Forgiveness

[k12listmomma]

No: HPFGUIDX 188724

> Pippin:
> I don't think canon implies that Riddle stopped bullying people during his 
> first five years at Hogwarts. He just found ways to do it that wouldn't 
> get him in trouble and wouldn't make him unpopular. He already knew from 
> the orphanage that he could do it without getting caught.
>

Shelley:
But to me, if DD had discovered even ONE solid case of an example of Tom 
Riddle bullying, in a serious way that left scars on the person (as were the 
children where were never quite right following their contact with Riddle) 
somewhere in the middle of all of his good behavior and awards for such, 
that would be the point of his bahevior being totally consistant all the way 
through, carrying the connection between the young child who killed a rabbit 
to the older student who purposely opened the Chamber of Secrets with that 
same intention to bully (with death, if necessary) the Mudbloods. Even the 
scene with Hagrid could have worked, if it weren't so benign. Hagrid did 
have an illegal creature or potentially harmful creature, so he wasn't 
exactly 100% blameless, so that's not a foolproof case of bullying an 
innocent person, KWIM? Anyone could have turned Hagrid in, for such as 
simple reason of being scared of the creature and fearing of what it might 
do to the students, rather than Riddle's second motive of hiding his tracks. 
Hagrid was totally unharmed, save from being banned from school. I would 
have liked to see a person who did come forward and point to a Tom Riddle 
who had moments of unstability as a student, or who had tortured or really 
harmed them in some tangeable way. In the same way that you don't think 
canon implied Riddle stopped bullying, we don't see any clear evidence that 
he continued. As I see it, there is that gap that one can only "assume" 
continuity, dispite and to the contrary to all the accolades that Tom earned 
for himself at school. But assumptions don't equal a solid example, in my 
book. The awards he earned speak louder that the assumption that he was good 
at duping everyone, but was secretly evil beneath. The very fact that he 
earned accolates and awards are proof that he could control himself, and for 
long periods at a time.

> Pippin:
> Both Slughorn and Dippet get a little uneasy about Tom. I'm sure they 
> weren't the only ones. But he was good at manipulating people. He snowed 
> Dippet. He made sure that anyone who might give a negative report about 
> him (like Slughorn or poor Ginny or the "intimate friends" who knew him as 
> 'Lord  Voldemort') would have to compromise themselves to do it. And as 
> James showed, you can get away with a lot of bullying if you are popular 
> and your victims aren't.  Even if Hagrid knew he'd been set up, who'd 
> believe him?
>

Shelley:
I fail to see how Slughorn would have compromised himself by immediately 
reporting to the headmaster that a student was inquiring seriously about 
Horcruxes. We see a Slughorn who was later embarrassed by the fact that he 
should have known what Tom's questions were for, and then tampered with his 
own memory because he was ashamed that he had helped Voldemort on his path 
to do evil, but at the time of that questioning Riddle had nothing to 
threaten Slughorn with. Hagrid had nothing on Tom to work in his self 
defense- he indeed had violated school rules by having a pet that might have 
been dangerous. He shouldn't have been expelled for it, but mostly he 
created his own situation in which ANY student could have turned him in and 
gotten him punished for it.

> Pippin:
> Shelly made the point that for  all Voldemort's many evil deeds, it was 
> only constructing horcruxes that made the damage to his soul irreparable. 
> Since that is beyond the reach of any real person and most of JKR's 
> fantastical ones, JKR isn't really saying anything about whether any human 
> being is truly irredeemable.
>
> But she does want her characters to relate to Voldemort as if he were 
> irredeemably evil, so the revelation that he might not be has to wait till 
> the very last minute, though Dumbledore knew since the gleam of triumph in 
> GoF.  Nothing in Voldemort's actions can point unambiguously to a change 
> in him, just as nothing Quirrell can do up to the final confrontation can 
> call attention to him as a villain.

Shelley:
But I have pointed out quotes where I do see a change, from a kid merely 
inquiring about his past and from whom he had inherited his magical talents 
from (such as that special and rare gift of Parceltongue) to the Voldemort 
that had intentionally multilated himself by ripped his soul so many times 
that even his outward appearance made his former self unrecognizable. 
Quoting again:
Dumbledore to Harry: "He disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled 
far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very
worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, 
that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable." 
(CS18)
The change from Riddle to Voldemort was a shocking and disturbing one. Now, 
if you are talking about the Voldemort post Harry's blood infusion, then 
yes, nothing changed at all about his behavior and intentions.

> Pippin:
> But canon is explicit about Dumbledore's hope for Voldemort.
>
> "His body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, 
> so do you and so does Voldemort's one last hope for himself."
>
> Dumbledore smiled at Harry, and Harry stared at him.
> "And you knew this? You knew -- all along!"
> "I guessed. But my guesses have usually been good," said Dumbledore 
> happily, and they sat in silence for what seemed like a long time, while 
> the creature behind them continued to whimper and tremble.
> -DH ch 35
>
> The reader might overlook this, or ignore it, or find it implausible. But 
> it's definitely there.
>
> Pippin

Shelley:
I don't see that as hope for Voldemort himself, but rather for hope in the 
defeat of Voldemort. The "sacrifice", "that enchantment" is Harry's link to 
Voldemort by being his horcrux. With the destruction of that horcrux comes 
the ability for Voldemort to be killed, once and for all. Voldemort's death 
was DD's real hope for the WW.