From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Thu Jul 1 02:23:20 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 02:23:20 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189399 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins? dzturtleshell: I think we should be asking what Marge could have against Harry. She treats him like he somehow ruined her life, and it seems as though she has felt that way since he was an infant. Her attitude toward him, her insistence that he be present at all times for her constant criticisms, and the fact that the majority of her complaints are things over which he has no control. It sounds like sour grapes to me. (And I do think it's quite ridiculous to act like a sore loser as compared to a helpless five-year old!) 2. Given the little glimpse of Harry's life with the Dursleys that we see at the beginning of each book, what do you think the Dursleys' neighbors believe to be the reason that Harry attends St. Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys? And do you think they are concerned that he is allowed to come home every summer? dzturtleshell: With Petunia being the type to crane over the garden fence to spy on the neighbors and Vernon calling the family out to admire the new car in loud voices for the rest of the street to hear, I've always felt that the Dursleys don't really have friends in their neighborhood. We never hear about Petunia having ladies over for tea or Vernon out doing something with the other dads. All of their interactions are related to image - cover up anything embarrassing and flaunt anything even mildly impressive. Taking this into account, I doubt the residents of Privet Drive believe anything the Dursleys say. 3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control yourself as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age? dzturtleshell: I tend to remove myself from situations like that. I probably would have found a way to become violently ill so that I would be quarantined to my room safely away from her mouth for the week. 4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are watched as closely by the ministry to see if they perform magic during the summer? Why or why not? dzturtleshell: I can't remember which book addressed this, I believe it was 5, 6, or 7 because I remember thinking it would be frustrating to learn this tidbit when he was almost of age - But, at some point, one of the adults told Harry how the Ministry tracked underage magic, they could only tell where magical activity had occurred, they couldn't tell who did it. Whoever said it (I think it was Mr. Weasley??) said that the Ministry relies on the parents in wizarding families to police their own children at home. So, if the Ministry really isn't able to pinpoint magical activity like that, then Harry was "caught" in CoS and OotP because there are no other wizards on record in Little Whinging so any magic is most likely to have been done by Harry. But, in CoS when Ron uses his wand to start the flying car, the Ministry doesn't say or do anything because they are in the middle of London and there are a ton of wizards in that vicinity dropping their kids off at Kings Cross. Makes me wonder why no one noticed when Tom Riddle murdered his father and grandparents in the Muggle village in which they lived when he was 16. I thought there weren't supposed to be any other wizards there either? 5. OK, one more about Aunt Marge - can you think of any way in which she could have been written to be more unlikeable? dzturtleshell: Definitely. The worst ones are those that pick at you so subtly and so personally that it makes you feel like dirt but you can't even complain (or say that they deserve being blown up like a balloon) because they did it so subtly everyone will just say you are being sensitive or paranoid. Snape was quite good at this. I'm sure each of you know someone in real life that is also. (Hopefully you aren't that person!) 6. Anything else that caught your eye in this chapter that should be discussed? dzturtleshell: This chapter is our first introduction to the mass murderer, Sirius Black. The first time you read this book, (assuming you read them in sequence and already knew of JKR's knack for easy-to-overlook hints), did you think the armed menace mentioned on the Muggle news was THE prisoner of Azkaban mentioned on the cover? Also, did they announce Black's breakout on the Muggle news because they expected him to be after Harry (who lived in an all Muggle neighborhood at the time)? Or just because they didn't know how to find him and wanted to use every resource possible? From bart at moosewise.com Thu Jul 1 14:21:32 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:21:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2CA46C.7020100@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189400 On 6/30/2010 10:23 PM, dzturtleshell wrote: > 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins? > > dzturtleshell: I think we should be asking what Marge could have against Harry. She treats him like he somehow ruined her life, and it seems as though she has felt that way since he was an infant. Bart: Now that you mention it, I have seen something which would serve to explain (other than over the top writing) Aunt Marge's attitude. I had two relatives who were sisters. They lived in the same old age home. The son of one of them removed his mother, and transferred her to another home. This appeared to be very cruel, especially to his aunt. What the family later found out was that the sister who was removed was a complainer. Every time her son spoke to her or visited her, the main topic of conversation on her part was complaints about her sister. The son pretty much thought he was doing the right thing by separating the two; his mother's complaints made him think that her sister was making her life miserable. Now, consider that Marge is Vernon's sister. It would not be surprising, and certainly in character, for Vernon to blame Harry for everything that is not perfect for him, in his communications with his sister. Regardless of reality, especially if Marge is herself annoyed by Vernon's complaints, it would actually make emotional sense for Marge to, in combined defense of her brother and annoyance at her brother's continual complaints, let out her hostility at Harry. Bart From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 08:00:10 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 01:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80119.98940.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189401 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins? luirhys: I have this idea that it's probably how the Dursley's (Marge & Vernon) were brought up. Possibly they learned from an early age that exercising authority is the way to gain respect (or at least fear). Additional question though: It seems obvious that nobody likes her visiting, yet she still bothers/ Do you think Marge is the older or younger sibling here? 2. Given the little glimpse of Harry's life with the Dursleys that we see at the beginning of each book, what do you think the Dursleys' neighbors believe to be the reason that Harry attends St. Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys? And do you think they are concerned that he is allowed to come home every summer? "Pippin: I doubt they believe the St Brutus story and I'm sure they know Dudley is a bully. But they probably think there's something odd and possibly very wrong about Harry too. Their kids will be aware of the weird stuff that happens when Harry's around. Best not to get involved. It isn't all wizard concealment that allows the WW its clandestine existence. There's a great deal of Muggle denial involved as well." dzturtleshell: With Petunia being the type to crane over the garden fence to spy on the neighbors and Vernon calling the family out to admire the new car in loud voices for the rest of the street to hear, I've always felt that the Dursleys don't really have friends in their neighborhood. We never hear about Petunia having ladies over for tea or Vernon out doing something with the other dads. All of their interactions are related to image - cover up anything embarrassing and flaunt anything even mildly impressive. Taking this into account, I doubt the residents of Privet Drive believe anything the Dursleys say. luirhys: Both Pippin and Dzturtleshell have good points here. The neighborhood WOULD know about Harry and Dudley, but given the Dursley's being SUCH LOVELY PEOPLE, I don't think they would be overly concerned, aside from the entertainment value they give. I could just imagine them saying/thinking "Look at that stick gloat over her son, you'd think we don't have eyes to see that he's just a blimp that talks." 3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control yourself as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age? luirhys: I don't handle confrontations very well, I'd probably act all tough and like "I don't care" but conveniently hide up to my bedroom to cry. 4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are watched as closely by the ministry to see if they perform magic during the summer? Why or why not? luirhys: I think I read somewhere that they can detect magic in muggle households, but NOT who did it. That's why they can't detect underage magic in some wizarding households (like the Weasley's) and think that Harry did magic back in CoS. Putting these ideas together, I don't think the MoM dispatches employees to households with underage wizards, waiting for them to do some magic. Possibly they have a thingamagic that registers magic around muggle households with underage students, which alerts the ministry of the time and place/ possibly also a list of inhabitants and in turn, they send out a warning. 5. OK, one more about Aunt Marge - can you think of any way in which she could have been written to be more unlikeable? lets look at the checklist: 1. She likes Dudley- always a bad sign 2. She routinely beats Harry 3. She gives dog biscuits to Harry (not that this is significantly BAD, as in EVIL but really, it shows that either she thinks that Harry's a dog or just gave him the first thing she grabbed in her bag). Remember that Harry is the main character, so HIS pain is OUR pain. 4. She routinely seeks to make Harry's life miserable 5. AND makes sure that everyone else is making his life miserable 6. She trash talks Harry's parents 7. She is related to Uncle Vernon, need I say more? Have I forgotten anything? I don't think Rowling could have made her more unlikeable even if she made her related to Voldemort. 6. Anything else that caught your eye in this chapter that should be discussed? luirhys: This chapter inspire rage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From technomad at intergate.com Thu Jul 1 19:10:41 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:10:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: <80119.98940.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <80119.98940.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100701141041.wne8ibxjk8s8o8wc@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189402 Quoting lui : > > > 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person > hits a 5-year > old in the shins? > > luirhys: > > I have this idea that it's probably how the Dursley's (Marge & Vernon) were > brought up. Possibly they learned from an early age that exercising > authority is > the way to gain respect (or at least fear). Additional question > though: It seems > obvious that nobody likes her visiting, yet she still bothers/ Do you think > Marge is the older or younger sibling here? It might be that _she has money,_ and Vernon hopes to inherit, either himself or Dinky Duddums. She doesn't seem to be married or have children of her own. And I'd be very curious to meet Vernon's parents. It might be that the way he acts is the only way he knows. God knows, I feel sorry for Dudley---sooner or later, reality is going to bite him HARD. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From margdean56 at gmail.com Thu Jul 1 21:32:38 2010 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 15:32:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: <80119.98940.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <80119.98940.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189403 On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 2:00 AM, lui wrote: > > > > 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year > old in the shins? > > luirhys: > > I have this idea that it's probably how the Dursley's (Marge & Vernon) were > brought up. Possibly they learned from an early age that exercising authority is > the way to gain respect (or at least fear). Additional question though: It seems > obvious that nobody likes her visiting, yet she still bothers/ Do you think > Marge is the older or younger sibling here? Older, definitely older. I've been a bossy older sister myself, and can recognize the type. :) --Margaret Dean, who's not as bad as Aunt Marge, really! From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Fri Jul 2 06:48:00 2010 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 06:48:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megan Real" wrote: > > This message is a Special Notice for all members of > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups > In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also > being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is > set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, > contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): > HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com > ---------------------------------------------------------- > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban > Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake > > Summary: > Harry hears muggle news reports about Sirius Black's escape, but the focus soon shifts to the impending arrival of Aunt Marge, who has been very unpleasant to Harry on her previous visits to the Dursleys. Harry gets Uncle Vernon to agree that he will sign Harry's Hogsmeade permission slip if Harry behaves like a muggle during Aunt Marge's visit. Harry almost makes it through the week, but loses his temper on the last day when Aunt Marge insults his parents. Realizing that he could be in big trouble in the wizarding world for inflating Aunt Marge, he packs up and runs away from the Dursleys' house. > > Questions: > > 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins? Geoff: I am reminded of similar folk - often women whom I knew when I was a lot younger. They were often spinsters, very set in their ways who expected every thing to conform to their idea of the world. Children were considered to be loose cannons who got in the way, were unpredictable, noisy and liable to undermine the peace and stability of their life style. I can see something in this, having a three year old granddaughter who is just transitioning from the Terrible Twos the the Tyrannical Threes. :-)) Sometimes it can be frustration if they have never married. I can remember as a child an elderly spinster who had lost her fiance in the First World War and had never been married who had become a rather crabby and self-centred who complained bitterly about anyone and anything which did not meet her requirements. In Aunt Marge, Jo Rowling also takes a humorous side swipe at a certain type that still exists today. I live nowadays in a rural part of the UK, which still thinks that banning hunting with dogs was a disaster. Ladies who go around in tweed suits and pamper two or three (usually small) dogs at home can be found even in 21st century England. If you do not go to Hunt balls or ride to see the Hunt meeting start, then you are either lower class or need to see a psychiatrist. :-( From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 2 20:57:52 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 20:57:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189405 > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban > Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake > Questions: > > 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins? AM: I think she sees children like puppies; I think she would be the sort to hit a puppy, or rub its nose in the dirt if it did its business where it shouldn't - unless it was a favoured dog, like Ripper. Some people are kinder to animals than children. But the idea that you shouldn't hit children is quite recent - I, and most of the kids I knew growing up were acquainted with the strap, hand, and ruler. > > 2. Given the little glimpse of Harry's life with the Dursleys that we see at the beginning of each book, what do you think the Dursleys' neighbors believe to be the reason that Harry attends St. Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys? And do you think they are concerned that he is allowed to come home every summer? AM: Either they're like the Dursleys, all about appearances, or they laugh at the Dursleys. But I can imagine Perfect Lawn competitions all around Little Whinging. I doubt they believe Harry goes to St. Brutus's, but they possibly believe he is sent to some quasi-military boarding school. No one seems to question the bullying or his clothes. > > 3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control yourself as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age? AM: I'd have run away as soon as I heard she was coming. > > 4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are watched as closely by the ministry to see if they perform magic during the summer? Why or why not? AM: Well, Petunia goes on about Lily coming home with "pockets full of frogspawn, turning teacups into rats", and no one from the Ministry seems to intervene. I think it's just Harry that is so carefully observed. Presumably he has enemies in the Ministry from the start, if he is so watched. > > 5. OK, one more about Aunt Marge - can you think of any way in which she could have been written to be more unlikeable? AM: Hmm - she might have visited more often, or lived round the corner. > > 6. Anything else that caught your eye in this chapter that should be discussed? AM: Why do you think JKR mirrored the scene of Snape having his trouser-leg in tatters and bloody from Fluffy in Philosophers Stone with Vernon rushing after Harry after he'd blown Marge up? From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 04:46:53 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 04:46:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189406 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189396 > > Megan's Question: > 3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control > yourself as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age? Mike: In answer to your question, yes and no. (how's that for taking a position ) I think I would have been able to control myself in one of those predicaments for a little while. But after 4 or 5 days of it, pfft, forget it. I'd have lashed out a whole lot worse than Harry did. Ya know how right after Harry baloonifies Marge, he heads out to the hall to collect his trunk and pulls out his wand. I was really hoping it was to go back and shoot a dart into Marge and watch her fly off in a swirling pattern like a baloon letting out its air. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189399 > > 4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are > > watched as closely by the ministry to see if they perform > > magic during the summer? Why or why not? > dzturtleshell: > Makes me wonder why no one noticed when Tom Riddle murdered his > father and grandparents in the Muggle village in which they lived > when he was 16. I thought there weren't supposed to be any other > wizards there either? Mike: First, to respond to the part I snipped: JKR kind of released the whole monitoring situation in dribs and drabs. In CoS we first learn about detecting underage magic. In OotP we learn that the situation at Privet Drive has been watched more closely than others. In HBP, Dumbledore reveals that the Ministry can only detect magic performed in the vicinity of underage wizards, but they can't pinpoint who did it. Finally, in DH, we learn about "the Trace", which is evidently the spell or vehicle by which the Ministry monitors underage wizards. Phew, makes you think JKR hadn't exactly thought this detail all the way through from the beginning, doesn't it? So, on to Riddle and his murdering his kin. Simple really, there were wizards in that vicinity, and one who had specifically attacked the elder Tom Riddle in the past - Morfin, Tom's uncle. Since Tom framed his uncle, Morfin becomes the perfectly logical culprit to the Ministry, despite their distinct lack of logical thinking. Then again, Morfin's wand had been found to have done the deed, and Morfin proudly proclaimed his guilt. I'm not sure I would have been so wise as to ask the question of "why?". The fact that the trace must have been set off and yet there was no underage wizard around when they arrived, must not have concerned them. The Minisrty is one of those *don't bother me with the facts* agencies. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189398 > Pippin: > There is a lot of talk in this chapter about people getting what > they deserve. Do people get what they deserve in the Potterverse? Mike: Some do, the Malfoys come to mind. Certainly Bella got what she deserved. Peter did, eventually. I think the Carrows got off easy. Umbridge deserved much worse than what she got, unless of course the Centaurs did some unspeakable deeds to which we were not privy. > Pippin: > Or is that a myth which the characters use to explain away the > arbitrary inequalities in their lives? Mike: People have to believe there is some kind of karmic justice in their world else there would be nothing to look forward to and nothing to restrain those nastier impulses. But the Potterverse is rife with those inequalities that never get corrected. Personally, I harbor the fantasy that the Weasley's got the Malfoy Mansion as their spoils of war and the Malfoys were made to go live at the Burrow. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189405 > AmanitaMuscaria: Why do you think JKR mirrored the scene of > Snape having his trouser-leg in tatters and bloody from Fluffy > in Philosophers Stone with Vernon rushing after Harry after he'd > blown Marge up? Mike: I had never thought of this parallel before. I suppose we should have noticed the disparity between the Vernon and Severus while she was drawing the parallel. Snape was acting selflessly trying to protect the Stone, and he sought nothing from Harry. Dursley was oblivious to his and his sister's maltreatment of Harry, and went blustering after Harry to fix his sister's predicament. Yet both of them were reluctant protectors of Harry, and both because they loved an Evans woman. So, AM, did I get it? ~Mike From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jul 3 17:56:35 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 3 Jul 2010 17:56:35 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/4/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1278179795.552.85043.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189407 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday July 4, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wildirishrose at fiber.net Sun Jul 4 02:32:04 2010 From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 02:32:04 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Questions: 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins? Pippin: The same sort of person she is as a dog-fancier who drowns puppies. Childhood, to Marge, is not a protective cocoon -- it's a Darwinian contest from birth. Resources should not be wasted on the unfit, ie anybody who might take them away from her Dudders. Marianne: This is a sad to write, and I would think Marge would never go this far. But in the real world, what kind of person beats their child to death. Throws babies against walls. And other upspeakable acts. Child abuse happens all over to some degree or another. By this observation perhaps I've blown Marge's character out of proportion. Problem is that the Dursleys thinks it's fine to treat Harry that way. Dudley is never treated physically or emotionally treated that way. But in HBP Dumbledore said that Harry had escaped far worse damage than what the Dursleys had infliced upon Dudley. And DD is right. In the end, Harry got the better deal. It made him more of an adult that Dudley will ever be. Megan: 2. Given the little glimpse of Harry's life with the Dursleys that we see at the beginning of each book, what do you think the Dursleys' neighbors believe to be the reason that Harry attends St. Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys? And do you think they are concerned that he is allowed to come home every summer? Pippin: I doubt they believe the St Brutus story and I'm sure they know Dudley is a bully. But they probably think there's something odd and possibly very wrong about Harry too. Their kids will be aware of the weird stuff that happens when Harry's around. Best not to get involved. It isn't all wizard concealment that allows the WW its clandestine existence. There's a great deal of Muggle denial involved as well. Marianne: Harry is in public school. The other kids knows he's at school. Short of the parents being totally blind to their kids conversations about the strange things that happen to the Potter boy, they've got to know he's not at St. Brutus school. Even so, Harry minds his own business when he is at home. He don't act up, so I don't think the neighbors need be too worried. 4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are watched as closely by the ministry to see if they perform magic during the summer? Why or why not? Pippin: We know that there's a special degree of watchfulness on Privet Drive. The ministry wants to know if magic is being performed in Harry's vicinity, in light of previous events, as Fudge puts it somewhere. Unfortunately the Trace apparently can't detect any difference between a hover charm performed by a wizard and one performed by a House Elf. And what would a House Elf be doing at Privet Drive? I suppose the person monitoring for magical activity at Privet Drive in CoS wanted to show that they were on the job and referred the matter to Mme Hopkirk without considering what the consequences for Harry would be. Marianne: Wizarding children at their homes are probably not too closely monitered because the parents keep an eye of them. During the summer there are strange sounds coming from Fred and George's rooms. They are working on something, and I would think it involves magic. I think George mentioned that Ginny does a good bat bogey hex. Not sure which book. Or if he was on the receiving end at school or at home. If the Ministry kept that close of an eye on wizarding families they'd be at the Burrow on a regular basis because of Fred and Geore alone. Megan: 5. OK, one more about Aunt Marge - can you think of any way in which she could have been written to be more unlikeable? Pippin: Oh yes. She could pretend to have Harry's best interest at heart and have a quill that makes him cut words into his hand. Marianne: She could have had her dog sit right up at the supper table with everybody else and eat off Petunia's good dishes. That's probably more disgusting than unlikeable. Or if she had any indication that Harry would be involved with Sirius she probably would have turned Harry over to Sirius. From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 4 07:49:39 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 07:49:39 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189409 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189405 > > AmanitaMuscaria: Why do you think JKR mirrored the scene of > > Snape having his trouser-leg in tatters and bloody from Fluffy > > in Philosophers Stone with Vernon rushing after Harry after he'd > > blown Marge up? > > Mike: > I had never thought of this parallel before. I suppose we should have noticed the disparity between the Vernon and Severus while she was drawing the parallel. Snape was acting selflessly trying to protect the Stone, and he sought nothing from Harry. Dursley was oblivious to his and his sister's maltreatment of Harry, and went blustering after Harry to fix his sister's predicament. Yet both of them were reluctant protectors of Harry, and both because they loved an Evans woman. > > So, AM, did I get it? > > ~Mike > AM now - I dunno if you got it! ;^) I wondered if JKR meant us to see Snape taking up Vernon's role at Hogwarts, before she really worked out that Snape would have a much more pivotal role in the story? Some of the other characters seem, to me, to have this feeling they're going one way, then they become a different sort of player in her game. Hagrid's my favourite for this - through most of the books, he becomes a comic bumbling sideshow, West Country accent and all, but in the first book, he seemed powerful and quite dark to me, yellow circus tent notwithstanding. I like your link with the Evans women; I hadn't seen it quite like that before! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 4 17:07:01 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 4 Jul 2010 17:07:01 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/4/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1278263221.17.57761.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189410 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday July 4, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 21:14:30 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 21:14:30 -0000 Subject: Hidden in Plain Sight (was:POA CHAPTER 2 DISCUSSION) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189411 > AM now - I dunno if you got it! ;^) > I wondered if JKR meant us to see Snape taking up Vernon's role at > Hogwarts, before she really worked out that Snape would have a much > more pivotal role in the story? Mike: Oh I doubt that. ;) I think JKR knew what Snape's story was from the beginning and took pains to hide it from us. She even tried to convince us there was nothing between Severus and Lily in Snape's Worst Memory. But that still didn't dissuade the believers in the LOLLIPOPS theory. And those believers were right. The neat part of the way JKR did it, was how Snape was becomming less important in Harry's eyes through OotP and HBP. At the same time, we were being treated to more independent glimpses of Snape and just knew that he was going to play a more pivotal role despite Harry's lack of attention. But you are also right, Snape did take up where Dursley left off. Except the Dursleys didn't become moot until OotP, when Harry no longer paid them any attention (Aunt Petunia's acknowledgement of the WW in the beginning of OotP aside). > AM continued: > Some of the other characters seem, to me, to have this feeling > they're going one way, then they become a different sort of player > in her game. Hagrid's my favourite for this - through most of the > books, he becomes a comic bumbling sideshow, West Country accent > and all, but in the first book, he seemed powerful and quite dark > to me, yellow circus tent notwithstanding. Mike: Gosh, I thought of Hagrid as the big bumbling, doesn't-know-his-own-strength oaf from the get go. Two sentences into his introduction on the Hut on the Rock and I knew who he was. Snape, he remained a mystery up to the end. We all knew he would play that pivotal role, that he probably wasn't who he seemed to Harry; but I still didn't like him all the same. As I said above, planned from the beginning, IMO. To a much lesser degree, Petunia turned out to be much different than she originally started out, that scene in the Kitchen in OotP being our first hint. But that too was intended from the beginning, IMHO. For me, the character that kept changing was Sirius Black. He goes from the convicted murderer to the rather congenial godfather in this book (PoA). Along the way we learn of his close friendship with James. Combine that with our already established Ministry prediliction for dubious justice, and we had already been wondering who this Sirius Black character really was. [Side note: I loved how JKR used a minor character like Madam Rosemerta to plant the seed of doubt, while major characters like Dumbledore remain convinced of Black's guilt.] Then he turns into the somewhat wise sage and mentor/protector of Harry in GoF. At the end of GoF he appears to be poised to be a major player in the fight against Voldemort, only to turn again. He is used almost for comic relief in the beginning of OotP, then he turns into a sad lonely drunk. In the end, he becomes another martyr - at least in Harry's eyes - in the fight against LV. Finally, in DH, Harry references Sirius when he wonders if he too is becoming a rash godfather. So who and what was Sirius Black? BTW, Sirius is my favorite character in the series. > AM: > I like your link with the Evans women; I hadn't seen it quite > like that before! Mike: A blind squirrel, ya know! From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 04:51:25 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 04:51:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: <80119.98940.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189412 luirhys asks: It seems obvious that nobody likes her visiting, yet she still bothers/ Do you think Marge is the older or younger sibling here? dzturtleshell: I guess I've always assumed she's older, even though I hadn't specifically thought about it. She has that authoritative air about her. She and Vernon seem to get along well, but Vernon is clearly more interested in pleasing her and making sure she's comfortable. And we know that Vernon only tries to please those that he considers to be at a higher power level than himself. Also, Marge gives her opinion about everything very freely, yet seems to think it's fact, as though she's a bit of an authority figure. Regarding the reason for her visits, I had thought it was only Petunia and Harry that were put off by her visits. Vernon treats her perfectly well, as I said before, he's usually trying to please her. Also, she probably thinks Dudley really likes her because he's usually faking so she'll give him money. luirhys writes: This chapter inspire rage. dzturtleshell responds: I don't think I've considered this before, but it's a very important point! One of Harry's biggest struggles throughout the series is his battle to maintain self control in the face of strong emotions. His ability to do this (or the lack thereof) is a major theme in this novel. Harry's loss of control in response to Marge's taunting is our first example that this is going to be a very difficult struggle for him. ~ dzturtleshell :) From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 04:53:22 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 04:53:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189413 Geoff writes: "...often women whom I knew when I was a lot younger. They were often spinsters, very set in their ways who expected every thing to conform to their idea of the world. Children were considered to be loose cannons who got in the way, were unpredictable, noisy and liable to undermine the peace and stability of their life style." dzturtleshell responds: I can see where you are coming from here, but it doesn't account for her treatment of Dudley. Marge treats Dudley like a prince. She beat Harry's shins to make sure that Dudley would win a game at his birthday party. She gives him money just so he'll like her! I feel like she might think of him as her surrogate son. She doesn't seem to have nearly as much concern for Petunia as she does for Vernon or Dudley - they aren't her blood. I suspect she's only civil to Petunia because her brother actually likes Petunia and Marge realizes he will get mad if she's blatantly horrible to his wife. Actually, I think they only put up with each other because they have to for Vernon's sake - (Just like Vernon only puts up with Harry because of Petunia...) ~ dzturtleshell :) From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 05:00:52 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 05:00:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189414 Megan asks: "Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins?" AM responded: "But the idea that you shouldn't hit children is quite recent - I, and most of the kids I knew growing up were acquainted with the strap, hand, and ruler." dzturtleshell responds: I understand it's a fairly new concept that hitting children can be abuse and shouldn't be done. But, was this situation ever really ok? I suppose I don't know being fairly young and sheltered, but it's very sad to think anyone would ever condone a woman hitting her sister-in-law's 5-year old nephew with a stick to keep him from winning a birthday party game against her own 5-year old nephew. It's one thing to discipline a misbehaving child, but this situation should have been beyond reproach in any day or age! ~ dzturtleshell :) From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 05:06:53 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 05:06:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189415 AM asks: "Why do you think JKR mirrored the scene of Snape having his trouser-leg in tatters and bloody from Fluffy in Philosophers Stone with Vernon rushing after Harry after he'd blown Marge up?" dzturtleshell responds: Never thought about this! I suppose there are some parallels between Vernon and Snape. As Mike had said, I agree it's possible to relate Vernon and Snape as "reluctant protectors" of the product of both someone they loved and someone they hated, but it's a bit of a stretch, and something that's unlikely to be noticed. Maybe JKR just knew someone that had a dog that would do that to people who approached it? It's a great scene, vivid, entertaining, and fitting! Mike writes: "So, on to Riddle and his murdering his kin. Simple really, there were wizards in that vicinity, and one who had specifically attacked the elder Tom Riddle in the past - Morfin, Tom's uncle. Since Tom framed his uncle, Morfin becomes the perfectly logical culprit to the Ministry" dzturtleshell responds: Wow. Sorry. I don't know how I forgot about Morfin here! I need to stop staying up so late, it's messing with my head. ~ dzturtleshell :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 5 13:38:04 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 13:38:04 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189416 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AmanitaMuscaria" wrote: > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189405 > > > AmanitaMuscaria: Why do you think JKR mirrored the scene of > > > Snape having his trouser-leg in tatters and bloody from Fluffy > > > in Philosophers Stone with Vernon rushing after Harry after he'd > > > blown Marge up? > > > > Mike: > > I had never thought of this parallel before. I suppose we should have noticed the disparity between the Vernon and Severus while she was drawing the parallel. Snape was acting selflessly trying to protect the Stone, and he sought nothing from Harry. Dursley was oblivious to his and his sister's maltreatment of Harry, and went blustering after Harry to fix his sister's predicament. Yet both of them were reluctant protectors of Harry, and both because they loved an Evans woman. Pippin: There's also a parallel between Fluffy's role and Ripper's. Ripper doesn't understand that Vernon is trying to help Marge, while Fluffy doesn't understand that Snape is trying to protect the stone. This isn't the first time in the story, or the last, that efforts to help are misunderstood, and not only by canines. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 5 14:07:41 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:07:41 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzturtleshell" wrote: > > Megan asks: "Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins?" > > AM responded: "But the idea that you shouldn't hit children is quite recent - I, and most of the kids I knew growing up were acquainted with the strap, hand, and ruler." > > dzturtleshell responds: I understand it's a fairly new concept that hitting children can be abuse and shouldn't be done. But, was this situation ever really ok? I suppose I don't know being fairly young and sheltered, but it's very sad to think anyone would ever condone a woman hitting her sister-in-law's 5-year old nephew with a stick to keep him from winning a birthday party game against her own 5-year old nephew. It's one thing to discipline a misbehaving child, but this situation should have been beyond reproach in any day or age! Pippin: I was thinking it was about Marge wanting Dudley to get the prize, but it parallels Lucius buying brooms for the Slytherin team and Hermione hexing McLaggen, which, to take a slightly more generous view, might mean that Marge wanted to spare Dudley the humiliation of losing. Of course Harry's feelings didn't matter to her at all. But as Marge points out with her casual mention of drowning a pup, compassion for the helpless is by no means a given. That is one of the things JKR looks at: most of us don't consciously try to be cruel, so what controls whether we feel compassion or not? Pippin From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 05:19:57 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 05:19:57 -0000 Subject: Hidden in Plain Sight (was:POA CHAPTER 2 DISCUSSION) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189418 Mike writes: " Snape was becomming less important in Harry's eyes through OotP and HBP. ... " and "... Snape did take up where Dursley left off. Except the Dursleys didn't become moot until OotP, when Harry no longer paid them any attention" dzturtleshell responds: I don't know if I agree that Snape took up Vernon Dursley's role once Harry got to Hogwarts. I've always seen Vernon as an oppressor, trying to "squash" out Harry's magic (and accordingly, Harry's individuality and spirit). Snape on the other hand provided Harry with some balance. Harry was welcomed to Hogwarts with a barrage of praise and adulation for feats which he had little, if any, conscious control over. Snape was a constant reminder of this. And throughout the series, he pointed out that nothing is black and white, although Harry's parents were fundamentally good, even James Potter & his friends had their own faults, just like Harry and everyone else. Snape kept Harry humble. Can you imagine dealing with an adolescent famous for being "The Chosen One"? Yikes - I think I might try to find a way to keep that kid's head out of the clouds, too! Also, you point out that Snape was less important to Harry throughout OotP and HBP. I agree that this was a great way for JKR to throw us off the trail of Snape's true loyalties and motivations. But I think it is also a sign of Harry's maturation, he's relying less on external perspectives and is learning to trust his own instincts and ideas about himself (for better or worse, understanding yourself is an important part of growing up and readying yourself to do adult things like sacrifice yourself to the world's greatest evil for the sake of the greater good...) ~ dzturtleshell :) From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 15:58:34 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:58:34 -0000 Subject: Hidden in Plain Sight (was:POA CHAPTER 2 DISCUSSION) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189419 > > Mike previously: > > "... Snape did take up where Dursley left off. Except the > > Dursleys didn't become moot until OotP, when Harry no longer > > paid them any attention" > dzturtleshell responds: I don't know if I agree that Snape took > up Vernon Dursley's role once Harry got to Hogwarts. I've always > seen Vernon as an oppressor, trying to "squash" out Harry's magic > (and accordingly, Harry's individuality and spirit). Mike now: Well, it's a parallel, not a copy, this Dursley to Snape hand-off. And like I said, the Dursleys remained an important, if only malignant, part of Harry's life up to GoF. Meaning Harry had to deal with the Dursleys and their rules while home for the summer, and Snape and the Hogwarts rules while at school. > dzturtleshell continued: > Snape on the other hand provided Harry with some balance. Harry > was welcomed to Hogwarts with a barrage of praise and adulation > for feats which he had little, if any, conscious control over. > Snape was a constant reminder of this. ... > ... Snape kept Harry humble. Mike: I don't know that Snape was so interested in balance as he was in some familial revenge. He had vowed to protect Harry, not befriend him. And clearly, Snape did not want Harry's friendship. IMHO, Snape was not onboard with Dumbledore in DD's quest to mold Harry into a Voldemort fighting machine. (or would that be sacrificial lamb? No matter, Snape wasn't onboard for that, either.) Yes, Snape and Dursley diverged on the magic part. But they both exhibited a quashing mentality when it came to Harry. If I were to guess, I suppose Snape thought that a meeker and more passive Harry would be easier to protect than a Harry that was determined to fight Voldemort. Just a guess, I don't really fathom the mind of Severus Snape. > dzturtleshell continued: > Can you imagine dealing with an adolescent famous for being "The > Chosen One"? Yikes - I think I might try to find a way to keep > that kid's head out of the clouds, too! Mike: Why? What's so wrong with Harry being special? Clearly he is, and yet, as Dumbledore argues to Snape shortly after Harry arrives at Hogwarts, Harry doesn't have his head in the clouds. Harry is respectful towards all of his teachers, even Snape, until Snape berates him enough to elicit a little cheek. And who is Severus Snape to decide that the famous Harry Potter needs taking down a notch? Setting aside his abonimable methods for the moment, Snape is Harry's teacher not his psychologist nor even his head of house. If Harry does something wrong, Snape can take house points, give detentions, etc. But Snape goes after Harry for existing, and looking too much like his father. Vernon Dursley also abhors Harry because he exists and Vernon can't get rid of him. They both treat Harry cruely for the same reason, Harry exists. IMHO. > dzturtleshell concluded: > Also, you point out that Snape was less important to Harry > throughout OotP and HBP. I agree that this was a great way for > JKR to throw us off the trail of Snape's true loyalties and > motivations. But I think it is also a sign of Harry's maturation, > he's relying less on external perspectives and is learning to > trust his own instincts and ideas about himself Mike: Yes, Harry did become more independent. I think viewing SWM forced him to think critically of his father for the first time. Not that he shouldn't have vehemently defended his father to Aunt Marge, in this chapter. At the same time, Harry pretty much stops caring what Snape thinks of him. That was exhibited when Harry writes his Dementor essay and doesn't care if he gets a bad grade from Snape. As you said, he is becoming confident in his own perspective of himself. ~Mike From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 19:58:28 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 19:58:28 -0000 Subject: Hidden in Plain Sight (was:POA CHAPTER 2 DISCUSSION) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189420 dzturtleshell wrote: "Snape on the other hand provided Harry with some balance." "Can you imagine dealing with an adolescent famous for being "The Chosen One"? Yikes - I think I might try to find a way to keep that kid's head out of the clouds, too!" Mike responded: "I don't know that Snape was so interested in balance as he was in some familial revenge." "Why? What's so wrong with Harry being special? Clearly he is, and yet, as Dumbledore argues to Snape shortly after Harry arrives at Hogwarts, Harry doesn't have his head in the clouds. Harry is respectful towards all of his teachers, even Snape, until Snape berates him enough to elicit a little cheek. "And who is Severus Snape to decide that the famous Harry Potter needs taking down a notch? Setting aside his abonimable methods for the moment, Snape is Harry's teacher not his psychologist nor even his head of house. If Harry does something wrong, Snape can take house points, give detentions, etc. But Snape goes after Harry for existing, and looking too much like his father." dzturtleshell responds now: Oh no! Please don't misunderstand what I was saying! I do feel that Harry is very special, and he does deserve that! A major part of what makes him so special is the fact that he doesn't have his head in the clouds, that he is respectful of everyone, and that he is kind to everyone (including a seemingly crazy house elf that breaks into his house, steals his mail, and gets him into heaps of trouble). But, I think a big part of the reason that Harry developed such a kind and caring personality was the oppression under which he was raised. Dumbledore himself said that part of the reason he was leaving Harry with the Dursleys as an infant was because of the overwhelming fame he would have encountered growing up in the wizarding world. So, I agree Snape didn't actually have to keep Harry's ego in check, that was already taken care of. But Snape didn't necessarily know Harry's ego had been beaten down brutally by the Dursley's and Snape was unwilling to see Harry for who he was because of his blind hatred and jealousy of James. So, yes, Snape's motive was familial revenge. Aside from what Harry needed for personal growth and development, I believe Snape did need to waste of a lot of his time trying to corral Harry's ego simply for the sake of the plot. We needed someone who was personally invested in Harry (whether we knew what that investment was or not) to be anxious about, we needed to wonder if Snape was lurking around a corner or reading Harry's mind when he was trying to sneak an illegal dragon off the grounds or something. Snape was always looking for way to prove that Harry was an arrogant, inconsiderate rule-breaker that needed to be brought back down to Earth, and the addition of that to the overall story created a lot of drama and suspense (and sometimes a little comedy) In providing this drama and suspense for the story, I think that Snape also provided balance, maybe not intentional on the part of the character, but needed for the overall story in a literary sense. --- dzturtleshell previously: "Also, you point out that Snape was less important to Harry throughout OotP and HBP. I agree that this was a great way for JKR to throw us off the trail of Snape's true loyalties and motivations. But I think it is also a sign of Harry's maturation, he's relying less on external perspectives and is learning to trust his own instincts and ideas about himself" Mike responded: "Yes, Harry did become more independent. I think viewing SWM forced him to think critically of his father for the first time. Not that he shouldn't have vehemently defended his father to Aunt Marge, in this chapter." dzturtleshell responds: Hah... I guess we went off on a bit of a tangent here, I was barely even thinking of this specific chapter when I responded previously. I do agree that Harry was more than right to defend his father to Aunt Marge. Marge had never even met Harry's parents (or least I thought that was implied). Who is she to say anything about them? Especially considering her own overwhelming faults. But now that we bring up Harry's growing independence throughout the series, do you think he would have handled that dinner of insults with Marge any differently if it had happened when he was 14 or 15 or 16? From thedossetts at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 23:44:19 2010 From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 23:44:19 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189396 > > > Megan's Question: > > 3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control > > yourself as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age? > > Mike: > In answer to your question, yes and no. (how's that for taking a position ) I think I would have been able to control myself in one of those predicaments for a little while. But after 4 or 5 days of it, pfft, forget it. I'd have lashed out a whole lot worse than Harry did. > > Ya know how right after Harry baloonifies Marge, he heads out to the hall to collect his trunk and pulls out his wand. I was really hoping it was to go back and shoot a dart into Marge and watch her fly off in a swirling pattern like a baloon letting out its air. > > > Pat: I always enjoy this chapter, thinking how Marge being "blown up" reminds me that she is full of hot air! - enjoying all the questions and answers - From puduhepa98 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 00:46:18 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 00:46:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189422 > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban > Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake > >snip summary > Questions: > > 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins? Nikkalmati Aunt Marge is a characture of a type of person that really exists. She is loud, rude, greedy, narrow-minded and arrogant. Vernon is a lot like her, but he has to get along in the real world and so has learned to behave better, except at home. Marge also expresses a line of "pureblood supremacy" /eugenics that any Death Eater would recognize. She thinks people are like dogs and inherit their characteristics from their parents. She probably would agree to dispose of any one with bad blood. In the course of her discussion she thoroughly insults Petunia, but tries to cover it up by saying "nothing against your family" and that her sister was a "bad egg". I wonder what Petunia thought of that remark. Did it reallyy make up for Marge's opinion that Harry had "bad blood" on his mother's side or would she agree? JKR is clever by putting these ideas in the mouth of a Muggle, while never having any witch or wizard express the same thoughts, yet I am sure we are supposed to remember Marge and her theories when we encounter the pureblood supremecists. Nikkalmati > > 2. Given the little glimpse of Harry's life with the Dursleys that we see at the beginning of each book, what do you think the Dursleys' neighbors believe to be the reason that Harry attends St. Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys? And do you think they are concerned that he is allowed to come home every summer? Nikkalmati I am not sure the neighbors are told that story. Vernon says that is what they told Marge. I doubt they would want the neighbors to think Harry was dangerous, just for their own sakes. Nikkalmati > > 3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control yourself as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age? Nikkalmati Harry was strongly motivated to behave himself in order to get Vernon to sign his permission slip. He tried to stay out of the way, but his presence at dinner was required. Vernon know it entertained his sister to poke at Harry. It is hard to imagine that if I had special powers I would be able to control myself in such a situation. Harry was under control until she attacked his parents. Of course, he knew by now the the story she believed was untrue, but he could not tell her the truth under pain of expulsion or worse, he thought. Nikkalmati > > 4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are watched as closely by the ministry to see if they perform magic during the summer? Why or why not? Nikkalmati No, I think we are told that the Ministry assumes wizarding families will take care of their own children at home. Nikkalmati > > 5. OK, one more about Aunt Marge - can you think of any way in which she could have been written to be more unlikeable? Nikkalmati Probably not. She has absolutely no positive characteristics. > > 6. Anything else that caught your eye in this chapter that should be discussed? Nikkalmati No, thanks Megan. > From bart at moosewise.com Tue Jul 6 01:04:58 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:04:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C32813A.8000308@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189423 Nikkalmati: > Harry was strongly motivated to behave himself in order to get Vernon to sign his permission slip. He tried to stay out of the way, but his presence at dinner was required. Vernon know it entertained his sister to poke at Harry. It is hard to imagine that if I had special powers I would be able to control myself in such a situation. Harry was under control until she attacked his parents. Of course, he knew by now the the story she believed was untrue, but he could not tell her the truth under pain of expulsion or worse, he thought. Harry's major weakness was his temper. He allowed it to get the better of him far too many times. I do not think it was a coincidence that it first really shows up in POA, where he ends up reuniting with Sirius, and that it was one of the factors that led to the death of Sirius in OOP. I don't know if JKR has said anything about this (I tend not to bother to read her interviews), but, now that I think about it, this episode was designed to show a character flaw which Harry had to overcome in order to defeat Morty (also interesting that you can see why Sevvy was so exasperated by Harry's refusal to learn emotional control). Bart From puduhepa98 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 02:48:01 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 02:48:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: <4C32813A.8000308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Nikkalmati: > > Harry was strongly motivated to behave himself in order to get Vernon to sign his permission slip. He tried to stay out of the way, but his presence at dinner was required. Vernon know it entertained his sister to poke at Harry. It is hard to imagine that if I had special powers I would be able to control myself in such a situation. Harry was under control until she attacked his parents. Of course, he knew by now the the story she believed was untrue, but he could not tell her the truth under pain of expulsion or worse, he thought. > > Harry's major weakness was his temper. He allowed it to get the > better of him far too many times. I do not think it was a coincidence > that it first really shows up in POA, where he ends up reuniting with > Sirius, and that it was one of the factors that led to the death of > Sirius in OOP. I don't know if JKR has said anything about this (I tend > not to bother to read her interviews), but, now that I think about it, > this episode was designed to show a character flaw which Harry had to > overcome in order to defeat Morty (also interesting that you can see why > Sevvy was so exasperated by Harry's refusal to learn emotional control). > > Bart > Nikkalmati Well, it is the first time Harry gets into a snit and runs off into danger. He could have been killed or injured as far as he knew, but who can blame him? Was Sirius always hanging about or did he just happen to be there on the night Harry left? Was he protecting Harry? How did he know where Harry was? They apparently never discussed it later as far as we know. Nikkalmati From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 8 03:46:01 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 03:46:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189425 > Nikkalmati > > Well, it is the first time Harry gets into a snit and runs off into danger. He could have been killed or injured as far as he knew, but who can blame him? Was Sirius always hanging about or did he just happen to be there on the night Harry left? Was he protecting Harry? How did he know where Harry was? They apparently never discussed it later as far as we know. > Pippin: I don't know why Sirius was there, but we know how he found out where Harry was. Hagrid had told him that Dumbledore wanted Harry to go to his aunt and uncle. Sirius, as a family friend, would know where Lily's sister lived. Sirius might have feared that Peter would show up at Privet Drive, but maybe Sirius just hoped to get a look at Harry. He can't have been around for long or he'd have discovered how Harry was being treated. Pippin From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 02:40:46 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 02:40:46 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189426 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus Harry accidentally blows up his Aunt into a blimp.and finds himself all alone in the street after storming out of the Dursley's home. He now faces the prospect of being a runaway and contemplates his next move. QUESTIONS: What did you first think after reading about Harry's latest bout of underage magic? Did you also think that he would be expelled or that Ministry wizards would come to arrest him or at least to break his wand in half? Realizing that both Ron and Hermione were abroad, where was the first place that you thought Harry would go? Harry senses something/someone watching him, he sees the outline of "something very big, with wide, gleaming eyes," Who/what did you first think of upon reading this? We know that Harry's location is relatively unknown, so much that even DE's/ Voldemort couldn't swoop down on him during DH, even though "they know the general area of the house,"- yet, Ron and the twins were able to rescue him in CoS and now Sirius in his Animagus form was also able to locate him . How do you think they know where to find Harry at all? There must be hundreds of wizards all over Britain that would've stuck out their wand arm, without needing transportation. How do you think the Knight bus distinguishes those that would be needing their services.? Harry is almost run over by the bus, yet we know that it dodges cars and scatters mailboxes. Do you think Harry would have really been run over? We are introduced to Stan Shunpike, the conductor of the Knight bus. Harry places him at around eighteen or nineteen years old. We should've seen him at Hogwarts in Harry's first year. What do you think of his magical education? It says in the newspaper that "Black" (eventually we know it was that rat Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What spell do you think he used? Do you think the Killing Curse was involved, or that Pettigrew would be powerful enough to cast a similar curse? Although we know from CoS that Azkaban inspires fear even to brave people (a.k.a Hagrid), this is the first time the guards are mentioned. What was your first idea of what/who they would be? Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than Cornelius Fudge, Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an important political figure came to fetch Harry? Fudge explains that Aunt Marge has been restored to normal and that the Dursleys are prepared to take him in next holidays, no matter how angry they were. Do you think that Fudge knows about Harry's blood protection in Privet Drive ? Harry is relieved from any punishment for blowing up his Aunt, and doesn't even get expelled for using underage magic. Fudge even looks uncomfortable and deliberately makes excuses to not explain his actions. What was your first reaction to this? On a different note, with the knowledge of the series, do you think Dementor's can get angry? NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 4 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). Lui From cvdknaap at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 7 22:41:16 2010 From: cvdknaap at yahoo.ca (catherine) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 22:41:16 -0000 Subject: Hidden in Plain Sight (was:POA CHAPTER 2 DISCUSSION) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189427 > Mike responded: > "Yes, Harry did become more independent. I think viewing SWM forced him to think critically of his father for the first time. Not that he shouldn't have vehemently defended his father to Aunt Marge, in this chapter." > > dzturtleshell responds: Hah... I guess we went off on a bit of a tangent here, I was barely even thinking of this specific chapter when I responded previously. I do agree that Harry was more than right to defend his father to Aunt Marge. Marge had never even met Harry's parents (or least I thought that was implied). Who is she to say anything about them? Especially considering her own overwhelming faults. cvdknaap: I do agree that Harry was more than right to defend his father to Aunt Marge. Marge had never even met Harry's parents (or least I thought that was implied). Who is she to say anything about them? Especially considering her own overwhelming faults. She was probably projecting one of those faults ie. Excessive drinking, onto Harry's father denying this very weakness in herself. Then again, I'm not sure if this is only evident in the movie version. From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 04:10:52 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 04:10:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189428 > What did you first think after reading about Harry's latest bout of underage > magic? Did you also think that he would be expelled or that Ministry wizards > would come to arrest him or at least to break his wand in half? Joey: I expected a suspension considering what had happened in Harry's second year. > Realizing that both Ron and Hermione were abroad, where was the first place that > you thought Harry would go? Joey: I just jogged along with the flow but now you mention it, consulting DD or Hagrid would have been the first thing that I'd have thought of. > Harry senses something/someone watching him, he sees the outline of "something > very big, with wide, gleaming eyes," Who/what did you first think of upon > reading this? Joey: Some ghost-like monster was what I had imagined though I was unsure and kept wondering. > We know that Harry's location is relatively unknown, so much that even DE's/ > Voldemort couldn't swoop down on him during DH, even though "they know the > general area of the house,"- yet, Ron and the twins were able to rescue him in > CoS and now Sirius in his Animagus form was also able to locate him . How do you think they know where to find Harry at > all? Joey: Probably the ancient magical charm evoked by Lily's sacrifice protecting Harry is akin to the protective charm placed around Tonks' house in DH where Voldy and DEs could not get in while the Order people could. > There must be hundreds of wizards all over Britain that would've stuck out their > wand arm, without needing transportation. How do you think the Knight bus > distinguishes those that would be needing their services.? Joey: Didn't Stan also say something about Knight Bus identifying wizards / witches who need transportation? I forget the exact words though. > Harry is almost run over by the bus, yet we know that it dodges cars and > scatters mailboxes. Do you think Harry would have really been run over? Joey: I don't think so. > We are introduced to Stan Shunpike, the conductor of the Knight bus. Harry > places him at around eighteen or nineteen years old. We should've seen him at > Hogwarts in Harry's first year. What do you think of his magical education? Joey: Hmmm... Maybe he failed in his exams. :-) I guess Harry didn't know him at all which is why we too don't get to see him and he is not that pivotal a character that JKR would have to write a Spinner's End for us to know him. > It says in the newspaper that "Black" (eventually we know it was that rat > Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What spell do you think he > used? Do you think the Killing Curse was involved, or that Pettigrew would be > powerful enough to cast a similar curse? Joey: Wonder what other curse could kill a dozen Muggles. Going by Bellatrix's words plus people like Crabbe and Goyle being able to Crucio people, conscious cruelty rather than skill seems to be the primary drive for Unforgivables. I think AK curse was involved. > Although we know from CoS that Azkaban inspires fear even to brave people (a.k.a > Hagrid), this is the first time the guards are mentioned. What was your first > idea of what/who they would be? Joey: I remember imagining a horrid and mammoth monster - something worse than a troll, a dragon and Fluffy put together. > Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than Cornelius Fudge, > Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an important political figure came to > fetch Harry? Joey: Well, the Boy Who Lived is in danger, isn't he? And Fudge had this habit of consulting DD who, I guess, would have impressed upon him that Harry's protection is vital. > Fudge explains that Aunt Marge has been restored to normal and that the > Dursleys are prepared to take him in next holidays, no matter how angry they > were. Do you think that Fudge knows about Harry's blood protection in Privet > Drive ? Joey: With DD guarding that secret? Nah. :-) > Harry is relieved from any punishment for blowing up his Aunt, and doesn't > even get expelled for using underage magic. Fudge even looks uncomfortable and > deliberately makes excuses to not explain his actions. What was your first > reaction to this? Joey: I was as perplexed as Harry. > On a different note, with the knowledge of the series, do you think Dementor's > can get angry? Joey: I guess so. They seem to *feed on* people's happiness and denying their virtual food could make them angry. Cheers, ~Joey, who enjoyed Lui's questions very much From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 9 06:01:30 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 06:01:30 -0000 Subject: Hidden in Plain Sight (was:POA CHAPTER 2 DISCUSSION) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catherine" wrote: > > > Mike responded: > > "Yes, Harry did become more independent. I think viewing SWM forced him to > think critically of his father for the first time. Not that he shouldn't have > vehemently defended his father to Aunt Marge, in this chapter." > > > > dzturtleshell responds: Hah... I guess we went off on a bit of a tangent here, > I was barely even thinking of this specific chapter when I responded previously. > I do agree that Harry was more than right to defend his father to Aunt Marge. > Marge had never even met Harry's parents (or least I thought that was implied). > Who is she to say anything about them? Especially considering her own > overwhelming faults. ;^) > > cvdknaap: > I do agree that Harry was more than right to defend his father to Aunt Marge. Marge had never even met Harry's parents (or least I thought that was implied). Who is she to say anything about them? Especially considering her own overwhelming faults. She was probably projecting one of those faults ie. Excessive drinking, onto Harry's father denying this very weakness in herself. Then again, I'm not sure if this is only evident in the movie version. > AM now - Well, she's bigoted, doesn't seem to work, and her idea of a 'little brandy' involves saying, "a bit more" several times to Vernon, then sloshing brandy into her glass and over the tablecloth. So I presume, along with her other faults, she includes the ones she accuses Harry's parents of. Oh - she might work at breeding and selling bulldogs, but unless she's running a puppy farm, that wouldn't produce much income. Where do you think her house and money came from? She seems very comfortable with it, so my first thought of a win on the pools (sort of lottery in the UK at that time) may not be right, but Vernon certainly isn't 'old money'; much more like the red braces brigade. From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 9 06:36:17 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 06:36:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lui" wrote: > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban > Chapter 3: The Knight Bus > > > Harry accidentally blows up his Aunt into a blimp.and finds himself all alone in > the street after storming out of the Dursley's home. He now faces the prospect > of being a runaway and contemplates his next move. > > > QUESTIONS: > What did you first think after reading about Harry's latest bout of underage > magic? Did you also think that he would be expelled or that Ministry wizards > would come to arrest him or at least to break his wand in half? AM now - I thought suspended though the wizarding world's punishments are very arbitrary, so maybe suspended over a vat of something pretty nasty? Just being made to stay in Privet Drive for longer would be horrible punishment, but then, nobody would know that would they? > > Realizing that both Ron and Hermione were abroad, where was the first place that > you thought Harry would go? > AM now - I wondered if he'd go to the Burrow anyways; the Weasleys say he's like a son to them, so I expect the protections would let him in. But that wouldn't have advanced the story much. > Harry senses something/someone watching him, he sees the outline of "something > very big, with wide, gleaming eyes," Who/what did you first think of upon > reading this? AM now - I can't really remember, but I think I suspected it was Voldemort. > > We know that Harry's location is relatively unknown, so much that even DE's/ > Voldemort couldn't swoop down on him during DH, even though "they know the > general area of the house,"- yet, Ron and the twins were able to rescue him in > CoS and now Sirius in his Animagus form was also able to locate him . How do you think they know where to find Harry at > all? AM now - Something about magic and intent springs to mind - you have to _mean_ the Unforgivables, but I think I saw magic as being almost sentient - sort of like the Room of Requirement. So anyone intent on helping Harry could find him? > > There must be hundreds of wizards all over Britain that would've stuck out their > wand arm, without needing transportation. How do you think the Knight bus > distinguishes those that would be needing their services.? AM - I sort of saw a 'flagging down a cab' gesture in my mind, though that could happen inadvertently. I guess as above, I assumed the intent was part of the hailing. > > Harry is almost run over by the bus, yet we know that it dodges cars and > scatters mailboxes. Do you think Harry would have really been run over? AM - No. The Knight Bus is a sentient thing, as Ernie seems to hardly be able to see. > > We are introduced to Stan Shunpike, the conductor of the Knight bus. Harry > places him at around eighteen or nineteen years old. We should've seen him at > Hogwarts in Harry's first year. What do you think of his magical education? AM - I wondered if maybe he'd failed his OWLS? Badly enough to not do a Flint? > > It says in the newspaper that "Black" (eventually we know it was that rat > Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What spell do you think he > used? Do you think the Killing Curse was involved, or that Pettigrew would be > powerful enough to cast a similar curse? AM - Not the Avada Kedavra; I thought it might be something else, as AK seems much too focused. Although there is much discussion as to how Voldie's AK blew up the Potter house. There again, other things, like the Horcrux spell, was involved there. So no, but why it didn't hurt Black as well - intent again? What a deliciously twisted bit of revenge of Peter on Sirius - it does make you wonder about his mentaal state, doesn't it? > > Although we know from CoS that Azkaban inspires fear even to brave people (a.k.a > Hagrid), this is the first time the guards are mentioned. What was your first > idea of what/who they would be? AM - Sort of like torturing demons or devils? I didn't know. > > Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than Cornelius Fudge, > Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an important political figure came to > fetch Harry? AM - I thought it was an excuse to see Potter. He hadn't gone to the school, as far as we know, so I guess, his chance to evaluate this boy who Dumbledore was touting as the Wizarding world's saviour, but who'd been kept under close wraps until then. > > Fudge explains that Aunt Marge has been restored to normal and that the > Dursleys are prepared to take him in next holidays, no matter how angry they > were. Do you think that Fudge knows about Harry's blood protection in Privet > Drive ? AM - Well, he knows something is protecting Harry, but not the details, otherwise I think Lucius would have wormed it out of him. > > Harry is relieved from any punishment for blowing up his Aunt, and doesn't > even get expelled for using underage magic. Fudge even looks uncomfortable and > deliberately makes excuses to not explain his actions. What was your first > reaction to this? AM - I really didn't know. I was very confused by this, but very relieved, along with Harry. > > On a different note, with the knowledge of the series, do you think Dementor's > can get angry? AM - Oh yes. I think they can produce all the negative emotions you like. I think they suck the good emotions and transfor them into bad. Thanks for the questions, Lui! From bart at moosewise.com Fri Jul 9 18:18:27 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:18:27 -0400 Subject: JKR did not always appear to think things through Message-ID: <4C3767F3.90308@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189431 Bart: Over the years (I think I joined this list around the time of HBP), I and others have brought forth a number of examples where JKR took her ideas to a certain point, but didn't take them beyond (comparing Dumbledore's age to the RW during the time he grew up is a good example). In any case, another one (addressed in a couple of the current questions) is the necessity, or lack thereof, of a Hogwarts education for children. The regulations on underage wizardry are useful for plot reasons, but frequently forgotten. To give the biggest example: there are numerous references to playing/practicing Q (I'm too lazy to look up how many d's there are in it) during off-season. But this is clearly the practice of magic by underagers. The explanation is given that it is magic practiced in the household, not the student. But that means that students who come from wizarding families have a huge advantage over those who don't; notably, an opportunity to practice skills over the holidays. A secondary question is if some children are homeschooled, then how the hell can they be if they can't practice magic outside of Hogwarts? It does seem that some of the "lower class" wizards (like Stan) were homeschooled. Are there other magic schools in England? The apparent underuse of Hogwarts seems to imply not. Finally, of course, there is the strongly Anglocentric worldview in the books. Morty does conquer the British WW, but it is known that there are wizards in other countries. Is it that Britain has an unusually high concentration of wizards, that make them pre-eminent in the WW? Now, mind you, if that is the case, given the demonstrated level of competence at the MoM, one begins to understand WHY the wizards haven't taken over the world. Bart From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 21:57:09 2010 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 21:57:09 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189432 Thanks, Lui, for the questions! > QUESTIONS: > What did you first think after reading about Harry's latest bout of underage > magic? Did you also think that he would be expelled or that Ministry wizards > would come to arrest him or at least to break his wand in half? Annemehr: I didn't really think about punishment until the book brought it up later in the chapter. I was more interested in the powerful emotions and the rising magical power evident in Harry. I never thought of this as a temper tantrum; there are good reasons for anger and what Marge did was one of them. Of course, even appropriate anger is best controlled, but Harry had prepared for it and done his best, and in the end there was really nothing he could do. Then afterward when pulled out his wand and *told* them he was leaving and no one was going to stop him - after having been made to sit and listen to abuse - was a bit thrilling - I hoped it was a sign of the strength to come. > We are introduced to Stan Shunpike, the conductor of the Knight bus. Harry > places him at around eighteen or nineteen years old. We should've seen him at > Hogwarts in Harry's first year. What do you think of his magical education? Annemehr: If Stan left Hogwarts after his OWLs, which seems likely, then they may have missed each other, as Harry is only guessing at Stan's age. But even if they were in school together, I doubt Harry would have noticed Stan, since Harry barely notices people in is own year. > > It says in the newspaper that "Black" (eventually we know it was that rat > Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What spell do you think he > used? Do you think the Killing Curse was involved, or that Pettigrew would be > powerful enough to cast a similar curse? Annemehr: I believe Peter's intent was to cause a diversion, and that he didn't care if he killed anyone or not. My guess is that he really did blow up the street (and the sewer), and the muggles were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. > > Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than Cornelius Fudge, > Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an important political figure came to > fetch Harry? Annemehr: I'm not sure there's a real explanation in the book, other than the author wanting to reintroduce Fudge. But I suppose we could say that he wanted to be on the spot of a successful "rescue" to contrast with their difficulties in recapturing Black. > > Fudge explains that Aunt Marge has been restored to normal and that the > Dursleys are prepared to take him in next holidays, no matter how angry they > were. Do you think that Fudge knows about Harry's blood protection in Privet > Drive ? Annemehr: I think he knew that DD arranged some sort of protection for Harry there but did not tell him the details. > > Harry is relieved from any punishment for blowing up his Aunt, and doesn't > even get expelled for using underage magic. Fudge even looks uncomfortable and > deliberately makes excuses to not explain his actions. What was your first > reaction to this? Annemehr: My reaction had always been: "But...but...but...accidental magic!" Hagrid explained accidental magic very thoroughly in the first book, after JKR described quite a few instances of it in Harry's early life, so I thought it was a common thing in young witches and wizards. I'm not sure how I expected Fudge to know it *was* accidental in this instance, though, and if Harry would have told him, surely it would only have sounded like making excuses. That was my first reaction. But I think Fudge looked uncomfortable because in the normal course of things, the MoM *would* have punished Harry, but that DD put the pressure on to get him off. And Fudge is worried that this will come back to bite him. It's a tough time for him politically anyway, with Black still on the loose. But it still makes me wonder about how often muggleborn witches and wizards get into trouble for accidental magic in the usual course of things. Annemehr From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 22:11:50 2010 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:11:50 -0000 Subject: JKR did not always appear to think things through In-Reply-To: <4C3767F3.90308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Bart: > Over the years (I think I joined this list around the time of HBP), I > and others have brought forth a number of examples where JKR took her > ideas to a certain point, but didn't take them beyond (comparing > Dumbledore's age to the RW during the time he grew up is a good > example). In any case, another one (addressed in a couple of the current > questions) is the necessity, or lack thereof, of a Hogwarts education > for children. The regulations on underage wizardry are useful for plot > reasons, but frequently forgotten. To give the biggest example: there > are numerous references to playing/practicing Q (I'm too lazy to look up > how many d's there are in it) during off-season. But this is clearly the > practice of magic by underagers. The explanation is given that it is > magic practiced in the household, not the student. But that means that > students who come from wizarding families have a huge advantage over > those who don't; notably, an opportunity to practice skills over the > holidays. Annemehr: Regarding Quidditch, the young wizards are riding brooms, not enchanting them. Apparently, young wizards in magical households are allowed to use magical objects as this does not count as "doing magic." Remember in CoS, Harry wondered why the twins were not in trouble with the MoM for flying the Anglia, and they said "it's Dad's, we didn't enchant it." And in GoF, at the QWC, we see that there are chidren's brooms that float low to the ground. I would agree with you that children from wizarding families would have a huge advantage, although in PS/SS, when Harry confides to Ron that he is afraid of being way behind in magical knowledge, Ron says that kids from muggle families catch up quick enough. Bart: > A secondary question is if some children are homeschooled, then how the > hell can they be if they can't practice magic outside of Hogwarts? It > does seem that some of the "lower class" wizards (like Stan) were > homeschooled. Are there other magic schools in England? The apparent > underuse of Hogwarts seems to imply not. Annemehr: I imagine they would just have to inform the MoM. I don't know what the rules are in Britain, but in the States you are allowed to homeschool if you make it official with the state you live in. Thus truancy laws aren't enforced against homeschoolers, for instance. From sweenlit at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 22:56:25 2010 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 15:56:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR did not always appear to think things through In-Reply-To: <4C3767F3.90308@moosewise.com> References: <4C3767F3.90308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189434 Bart: there are numerous references to playing/practicing Q (I'm too lazy to look up how many d's there are in it) during off-season. But this is clearly the practice of magic by underagers. The explanation is given that it is magic practiced in the household, not the student. But that means that students who come from wizarding families have a huge advantage over those who don't; notably, an opportunity to practice skills over the holidays. Lynda: I get your point, but I have to ask, is this not normal? For instance, I'm an amateur musician. I sing and play several instruments, at varying levels, some fairly close to professional. The reason I'm as good as I am is because I have access to instruments and make it a habit. There was a time, however, when I had neither and during those years my skill degenerated to an extent, because I had neither access nor opportunity. To further the story I have a younger relative who loves baseball. As a child he played in the leagues that were available, which, in the area he lived in limited his play to 3 months of the year. So not much practice or progress for him, but when his family moved to another area of the states, he was able to play in differing leagues and clubs for much of the year, every year and he improved markedly. As for the whole usage of magic thing, I have a sneaky feeling that there would have been exceptions made for the rules for the practice of games, as well as for home schooling families. Let's face it. Most parents were probably not as diligent in as the Weasleys in keeping their kids from using magic outside of school and even they didn't catch every usage of magic by their kids.. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 02:48:55 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 02:48:55 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189435 Lui: QUESTIONS: What did you first think after reading about Harry's latest bout of underage magic? Did you also think that he would be expelled or that Ministry wizards would come to arrest him or at least to break his wand in half? Alla: I do not remember for sure, but I definitely did not expect him to be arrested. Lui: Realizing that both Ron and Hermione were abroad, where was the first place that you thought Harry would go? Alla: If I remember correctly I thought somebody would take him to Hogwarts and would let him stay there for the summer. Lui: Harry senses something/someone watching him, he sees the outline of "something very big, with wide, gleaming eyes," Who/what did you first think of upon reading this? Alla: HA, I definitely remember that I did not think of this occasion as anything significant, silly me, in fact I may have thought that Harry just dreamt it up because he was scared, tired, etc, little did I know who it will be. Lui: We know that Harry's location is relatively unknown, so much that even DE's/ Voldemort couldn't swoop down on him during DH, even though "they know the general area of the house,"- yet, Ron and the twins were able to rescue him in CoS and now Sirius in his Animagus form was also able to locate him . How do you think they know where to find Harry at all? Alla: LOL, do not get me started on Dumbledore's so called secrecy measures and protection. I do not think it was difficult for Ron and twins to do a little sleuthing, for Sirius harder of course, but he probably thought about all possible places where Harry could be during the summer and realized that it is at least worth looking at Lily's sister. Lui: Although we know from CoS that Azkaban inspires fear even to brave people (a.k.a Hagrid), this is the first time the guards are mentioned. What was your first idea of what/who they would be? Alla: I did not think of anything as scary as Dementors for sure, but knowing that Harry recently remembered Hagrid's look of terror I definitely expected something of scary nature. Lui: Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than Cornelius Fudge, Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an important political figure came to fetch Harry? Alla: Cornelius was scared that public will not be happy if Dementors have Harry's soul for a snack, maybe? Thanks for the questions Lui. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 10 12:41:28 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 12:41:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189436 > Megan: > 6. Anything else that caught your eye in this chapter that should be discussed? Potioncat: Thanks for the short summary and interesting questions. If I just answered each one, I'd only repeat what others have said. So this post is responding to the thread in general. The section of the chapter that jumped out at me was Marge's dinner monologue which ended with the comment that Harry's father was probably a drunk. It's the old "I'm a social drinker, he's a drunk" mentality that many people have. As for the poor puppy Marge drowned, the ratty runt of a thing--doesn't that sound like Pettigrew? Marge's rant about Harry's blood line was uncomfortable and I felt for Petunia. Although up till this reading I always thought that Vernon and Petunia had told Marge stories about the Potters that had given her the ideas she held. I'm not sure that's supported in canon, but they must have implied there was something wrong with Harry--we do see the Dursleys doing that in canon. In either case Petunia was in a stew of her own making. She could hardly defend a sister that she had bad-mouthed; or if she stood up for Lily, it would imply Petunia had done a bad job of raising Harry. I've never decided what Petunia really felt for Lily, but she did sit there in silence. Marge is just like Snape, DD, McGonagall, Sirius, Slughorn and a few others. They each attributed certain of Harry's qualities to one of his parents. In some cases it was completely mistaken; in others it was right on the mark. Marge was working on misinformation, but she was right in the opposite way. It would be Lily's ability to love and sacrifice herself that would be an important aspect of Harry later on. I hate to say it, but Marge's overall theory may be correct (at least in this series of books.) Do we ever see any character who isn't a lot like his parents/family? The only ones I can think of who aren't alike are Lily and Petunia. Potioncat From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 10 14:22:24 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:22:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189437 > QUESTIONS: > Harry senses something/someone watching him, he sees the outline of "something > very big, with wide, gleaming eyes," Who/what did you first think of upon > reading this? Pippin:(snipping some questions where she has nothing to add) I thought of Dobby, who was first glimpsed as eyes peering out of a hedge. Lui: > We know that Harry's location is relatively unknown, so much that even DE's/ > Voldemort couldn't swoop down on him during DH, even though "they know the > general area of the house,"- yet, Ron and the twins were able to rescue him in > CoS and now Sirius in his Animagus form was also able to locate him . How do you think they know where to find Harry at all? Pippin: I think the blood protection keeps out anyone with a dark mark or an intention to harm Harry or Petunia, and there must be additional magic to keep wizard sightseers away as well. Since Sirius doesn't have a dark mark, doesn't want to hurt Harry and isn't a casual visitor, the magic wouldn't see him as someone to keep out. But I think any wizard not barred by the spells who bothered to learn how to read a muggle map and use a telephone directory could find the house. Lui: > It says in the newspaper that "Black" (eventually we know it was that rat > Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What spell do you think he > used? Do you think the Killing Curse was involved, or that Pettigrew would be > powerful enough to cast a similar curse? Pippin: If Voldemort had discovered a spell to kill numbers of people at once, he'd use it. In fact I see that as the source of his eventual dissatisfaction with the Elder Wand. I think Peter blew up the street, which really did cause a gas explosion. Like Draco, in fact like most people, he's more lethal by accident than by intent. If he had known such a spell it would have been to his advantage to use it when he escaped from the Shrieking Shack, because there would have been no one to report that he was still alive. Lui: > Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than Cornelius Fudge, > Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an important political figure came to > fetch Harry? Pippin: I don't think it was a publicity stunt per se. There are no photographers or reporters present. But I do think Fudge wanted to say he'd taken personal charge of Harry's safety, and he made sure that Tom, Ernie and Stan knew it. The word would get out. Lui: > Harry is relieved from any punishment for blowing up his Aunt, and doesn't > even get expelled for using underage magic. Fudge even looks uncomfortable and > deliberately makes excuses to not explain his actions. What was your first > reaction to this? Pippin: I thought Harry was lucky, and I wondered what was going on, much like Harry himself. In retrospect, it helps to set up Harry's angry confrontation with Scrimgeour later in the series, where he says that "you people", ie the Ministry, never get it right, always overreacting or not doing enough. He still thinks, at that point, despite all his experiences to the contrary, that any decent person should automatically know what to do. Lui: > On a different note, with the knowledge of the series, do you think Dementor's > can get angry? Pippin: Why not? I think they are a sort of personified spiritual projection, a bit like Peeves, but created by grief and despair rather than adolescent high spirits. Pippin Thanks for the summary and the thoughtful questions From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jul 10 17:58:46 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 10 Jul 2010 17:58:46 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/11/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1278784726.11.29207.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189438 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday July 11, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 20:33:32 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 20:33:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189439 Lui: > We know that Harry's location is relatively unknown, so much that even DE's/ > Voldemort couldn't swoop down on him during DH, even though "they know the > general area of the house,"- yet, Ron and the twins were able to rescue him in > CoS and now Sirius in his Animagus form was also able to locate him . How do you think they know where to find Harry at all? Pippin: I think the blood protection keeps out anyone with a dark mark or an intention to harm Harry or Petunia, and there must be additional magic to keep wizard sightseers away as well. Since Sirius doesn't have a dark mark, doesn't want to hurt Harry and isn't a casual visitor, the magic wouldn't see him as someone to keep out. But I think any wizard not barred by the spells who bothered to learn how to read a muggle map and use a telephone directory could find the house. Alla: Be that as it may, while the *magic* may not want to keep Sirius out if it knows about his innocence, Dumbledore certainly should have since he believed in Sirius' guilt so much and his beloved blood protection does not even include anything to protect Harry against somebody who supposedly betrayed his parents? JMO, Alla From librasmile at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 18:00:15 2010 From: librasmile at yahoo.com (Librasmile) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:00:15 -0000 Subject: JKR did not always appear to think things through In-Reply-To: <4C3767F3.90308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Bart: > Over the years (I think I joined this list around the time of HBP), > I and others have brought forth a number of examples where JKR took > her ideas to a certain point, but didn't take them beyond (comparing > Dumbledore's age to the RW during the time he grew up is a good > example). In any case, another one (addressed in a couple of the > current questions) is the necessity, or lack thereof, of a Hogwarts > education for children. The regulations on underage wizardry are > useful for plot reasons, but frequently forgotten. To give the > biggest example: there are numerous references to > playing/practicing Q (I'm too lazy to look up how many d's there > are in it) during off-season. But this is clearly the practice of > magic by underagers. The explanation is given that it is magic > practiced in the household, not the student. But that means that > students who come from wizarding families have a huge advantage over > those who don't; notably, an opportunity to practice skills over the > holidays. Hi I'm Librasmile, I lurk :^) <*engages delurk mode*> No JKR didn't think things through. Which in some ways sucks. But in others provides us an opportunity. You wondered about "low class" wizards like Stan Shunpike and why the law against underage magic seems to have too many loopholes. I think the answers are fairly simple. There ARE other wizard schools. And I'm not just talking about Durmstrang or Beauxbatons. I gave this idea a lot of thought and came up with the story Confessions of a Cornwall Grad that lays it out there for you. :^) (or paste into your browser: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5475961/1/Confessions_of_a_Cornwall_Grad) Logline: We can't all go to Hogwarts you know. Doesn't mean we want to end up making change on the Knight Bus. As for the law, that's also simple. Anti-muggleborn prejudice was built into the law. This is not my idea swythyv has looked at stuff like this at length and she comes up with some REALLY interesting ideas about why the law for underage sorcery exists. You can find her work here http://community.livejournal.com/hp_essays/204750.html From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 21:39:58 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 21:39:58 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189441 > Potioncat: > > I hate to say it, but Marge's overall theory may be correct (at > least in this series of books.) Do we ever see any character who > isn't a lot like his parents/family? The only ones I can think of > who aren't alike are Lily and Petunia. Mike: I got a couple more unalike siblings for ya, PC. How about Sirius and Regulus, Albus and Aberforth, Percy and the twins? But the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree when it comes to parents and their children in the series. I guess Percy is quite a bit different from his father, Arthur, but he's very much Molly's son. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189420 > dzturtleshell: > But now that we bring up Harry's growing independence throughout > the series, do you think he would have handled that dinner of > insults with Marge any differently if it had happened when he > was 14 or 15 or 16? Mike: Funnily enough, I think Harry would have handled it worse when he was older. The combination of him needing his Hogsmeade pass signed and him not being that confident of his magic, holds Harry back here. In later books, his growing magical abilities made him somewhat arrogant around his muggle kin. Look at how he handled Dudley in OotP, with his wand in his pocket. Here's a conundrum for ya: What would have happened if Aunt Marge had come calling in OotP? With the Ministry looking to discredit Harry, if he had lost control and blew up his aunt then... But would he had even remained at the table when Marge first opened her mouth? It wasn't until the end of OotP that Harry understood why he had to stay with the Dursleys. In the beginning of OotP, would he have walked out and gone to,... oh I don't know, the Leaky Cauldron? Come to think of it, why did Harry bother going back to the Dursleys after PoA or GoF? Did Dumbledore force him? Because he certainly had enough money for the month or two stay at the Cauldron, and that's even if Tom charged him full price, which he may not have. Mike From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 10 23:55:56 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 23:55:56 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189442 > > Mike: > I got a couple more unalike siblings for ya, PC. How about Sirius and Regulus, Albus and Aberforth, Percy and the twins? But the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree when it comes to parents and their children in the series. I guess Percy is quite a bit different from his father, Arthur, but he's very much Molly's son. > Potioncat: Nope, not at all. Here's how I see it. Sirius and Regulus are just alike. Joing different sides isn't the type of difference that counts. Both are brave, both give their all for someone important to them and both are a little mad like mummy. Albus and Aberforth are both intensly private who keep secrets too well. Percy and the twins all have the courage to go it alone against family opinion--but are brave and ultimately loyal to family. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jul 11 00:32:23 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:32:23 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189443 Potioncat: > > I hate to say it, but Marge's overall theory may be correct (at least in this series of books.) Do we ever see any character who isn't a lot like his parents/family? The only ones I can think of who aren't alike are Lily and Petunia. > Pippin: The question isn't whether people inherit personality traits or abilities, of course they do, but whether those qualities are determinative. After all, what does Harry really want to know when he asks if he should have been put in Slytherin? He's asking whether he can grow up to be the sort of person he wants to be. It's not the past he's concerned about but the future. And Dumbledore replies with his famous remark about choices. But the series shows us that regarding choices as a better predictor than abilities is itself a choice, and not an easy or obvious one. It's Dumbledore's choice to let people's choices define how he sees them, and Marge's choice to see heredity and appearance as more important. Pippin Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jul 11 01:12:44 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 01:12:44 -0000 Subject: JKR did not always appear to think things through In-Reply-To: <4C3767F3.90308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189444 > > Bart: The explanation is given that it is magic practiced in the household, not the student. But that means that students who come from wizarding families have a huge advantage over those who don't; notably, an opportunity to practice skills over the holidays. Pippin: And who says the rules have to be fair to Muggleborns? Is anyone in the WW going to be deeply concerned if Muggleborns don't have an equal chance to become first class Quidditch players? Bart: > A secondary question is if some children are homeschooled, then how the > hell can they be if they can't practice magic outside of Hogwarts? It > does seem that some of the "lower class" wizards (like Stan) were > homeschooled. Are there other magic schools in England? The apparent > underuse of Hogwarts seems to imply not. Pippin: Hogwarts students aren't allowed to use magic outside school. Since the penalty is expulsion from Hogwarts, it obviously does not and cannot apply to underage wizards who are not enrolled. We don't know what the rules are for other wizard kids, but Morfin isn't in trouble until he curses a Muggle. I agree that although JKR seems at first to be creating a window into an imaginary world, that's not really what she's doing. Her ultimate purpose, IMO, is to hold a funhouse mirror up to this one. Laws, she is telling us, don't necessarily serve their purpose as advertised, and this is not always unintentional. Think about it -- if the wizards really wanted to prevent underage magic outside Hogwarts, they'd just make the students turn in their wands at the end of term. But we see that the primary use of the law in action isn't to protect young wizards from foolish actions or even to shield Muggles - it's to protect the secrecy of the WW. That isn't threatened by young wizards doing magic in magical households, or by Muggleborns doing magic in the privacy of their homes. Lily and Hermione don't get in any trouble for doing magic at home, though the trace must have been activated when they did. But in Harry's case, Dumbledore and his friends in the Ministry must be aware that the law could be manipulated to use against Harry. Even before the rise of Umbridge there are people who would like to see Harry expelled, and perhaps Mafalda Hopkirk's warning in CoS was meant as reminder to Harry that he shouldn't give them a handle. Bart: > Finally, of course, there is the strongly Anglocentric worldview in the > books. Morty does conquer the British WW, but it is known that there are > wizards in other countries. Pippin: Why shouldn't Morty have a highly Anglocentric worldview? He was, after all, born into an era when Britain was a supreme world power, and orphan boys were trained up to be soldiers of the Empire. In Voldy's none-too-rational mind, conquering Britain and conquering the world might be more equivalent than you think. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 11 17:10:03 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 Jul 2010 17:10:03 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/11/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1278868203.497.27045.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189445 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday July 11, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blackcatnocturne at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 23:58:08 2010 From: blackcatnocturne at yahoo.com (nottelling) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 23:58:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189446 How do you think [Ron, twins, Sirius] know where to find Harry at all? Alla: .. while the *magic* may not want to keep Sirius out if it knows about his innocence, Dumbledore certainly should have since he believed in Sirius' guilt so much and his beloved blood protection does not even include anything to protect Harry against somebody who supposedly betrayed his parents? --- blackcatnocturne (entering delurk mode now): But Dumbledore, along with everyone else, was under the impression that Sirius was a Death Eater. Therefore, I don't think he would have seen any reason to adjust the wards to deliberately guard against Sirius, because he's already "guarded against" i.e. the wards keep Death Eaters out, Sirius is a Death Eater, the wards will keep Sirius out. Or at least I think that was Dumbledore's reasoning. From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 01:03:34 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 01:03:34 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nottelling" wrote: > > How do you think [Ron, twins, Sirius] know where to find Harry at all? > > Alla: > > .. while the *magic* may not want to keep Sirius out if it knows about his innocence, Dumbledore certainly should have since he believed in Sirius' guilt so much and his beloved blood protection does not even include anything to protect Harry against somebody who supposedly betrayed his parents? > > --- > > blackcatnocturne (entering delurk mode now): > > But Dumbledore, along with everyone else, was under the impression that Sirius was a Death Eater. Therefore, I don't think he would have seen any reason to adjust the wards to deliberately guard against Sirius, because he's already "guarded against" i.e. the wards keep Death Eaters out, Sirius is a Death Eater, the wards will keep Sirius out. > > Or at least I think that was Dumbledore's reasoning. > Nikkalmati I like this idea. I would point out that Sirius was locked up and presumably would not be free to roam about. Also, he may be undetectable in his Anamagus form. What do people think? Is an Anamagus perceived by magic? The Sneakoscope knew about Peter and the map saw him too. I also think Harry had gone beyond the area of the magical protections. I think just the house and immediate area are "safe" for him. That is why the Order has to put guards around the house in OOP. Nikkalmati From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 02:00:07 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 19:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3 Message-ID: <598255.1909.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi everyone! Wanted to answer my own questions, too! Q. What did you first think after reading about Harry's latest bout of underage magic? Did you also think that he would be expelled or that Ministry wizards would come to arrest him or at least to break his wand in half? luirhys: I certainly didn't think that he would get anywhere. Thinking back, I thought MOM officials would be turning up at once in Privet Drive to sort the situation. Q. Realizing that both Ron and Hermione were abroad, where was the first place that you thought Harry would go? luirhys: Camping out? Q. Harry senses something/someone watching him, he sees the outline of "something very big, with wide, gleaming eyes," Who/what did you first think of upon reading this? luirhys: Some kind of monstrous creature that would come out and fight Harry to the death if it doesn't devour him first. Q. We know that Harry's location is relatively unknown, so much that even DEs/ Voldemort couldn't swoop down on him during DH, even though "they know the general area of the house,"?- yet, Ron and the twins were able to rescue him in CoS and now animagus Sirius. How do you think they know where to find Harry at all? luirhys: Didn't think of this while reading the series but after DH, one would think that NOBODY would be able to find Harry in Privet Drive. I have this theory (which I only thought of now) that Harry also has some kind of disillusionment or muggle repellant charm on him that makes neighbors don't know he exist except for rumors or when he is specifically called out. It explains the question from the last chapter discussion on what the neighbors thought of Harry going to St. Brutus' or that he was being mistreated- they simply forgot about him unless the Dursleys specifically mentioned him, or if/when they see him passing, and even then they would think, "oh there's the Dursley's surrogate son." Regarding the Weasleys and animagus!Sirius though, I think I will side with the others here that say that the protection distinguishes from those who have malicious intent on Harry. It might not know that Sirius was innocent but it knows that he doesn't mean any harm. Q. There must be hundreds of wizards all over Britain that would've stuck out their wand arm, without needing transportation. How do you think the Knight bus distinguishes those that would be needing their services. luirhys: I have no explanation for this. It's Magic! Q. Harry is almost run over by the bus, yet we know that it dodges cars and scatters mailbozes. Do you think Harry would have really been run over? luirhys: Maybe would be thrown 3 feet into the air and into another spot if the Knight Bus would know it would hit him. Q. We are introduced to Stan Shunpike, the conductor of the Knight bus. Harry places him at around eighteen or nineteen years old. We should've seen him at Hogwarts in Harry's first year. What do you think of his magical education? luirhys: Lots of possibilities here. 1. He could have been homeschooled. 2. He could have left early. 3. Maybe he didn't attend Hogwarts at all. He could be dirt poor and forced to work at an early age. 4. Did we ever see him perform magic though? He could be a squib. Q. It says in the newspaper that "Black"?(eventually we know it was that rat Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What spell do you think he used? Do you think the Killing Curse was involved, or that Pettigrew would be powerful enough to cast a similar curse? luirhys: I never thought of what curse was used in this context, after all, we weren't introduced to the Unforgivables till the next book. But now, I don't think the Killing curse was involved. Somebody already said that it (Killing Curse) focuses on a single target and that if it was possible to hit more than one target, Voldy would have already used it. Possibly Pettigrew really DID blow up the street. NOT to kill anyone but to cause a diversion so he could fake his own death. Makes me wonder though if Pettigrew was that fast a thinker. Q. Although we know from CoS that Azkaban inspires fear even to brave people (a.k.a Hagrid), this is the first time the guards are mentioned. What was your first idea of what/who they would be? luirhys: I thought at first- Elite Wizards. Q. Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than Cornelius Fudge, Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an important political figure came to fetch Harry? luirhys: I only thought that Dumbledore was so busy that he sent (meaning subtley nudged in the right direction) Fudge to see that Harry becomes settled and safe. Q. Fudge explains that Aunt Marge has been restored to normal and that the Dursleys are prepared to take him in next holidays, no matter how angry they were. Do you think that Fudge knows about Harry's blood protection in Privet Drive? luirhys: He must have some idea that Harry is somewhat protected there or else he wouldn't have bothered to insist that Harry return there. Q. Harry is relieved from any punishment for blowing up his Aunt, and doesn't even get expelled for using underage magic. Fudge even looks uncomfortable and deliberately makes excuses to not explain his actions. What was your first reaction to this? luirhys: I thought it was fishy and maybe he's got some evil plans. I do wonder if it was really concern for Harry or just him protecting his name and buttering up to Harry. Q. On a different note, with the knowledge of the series, Do you think Dementors can get angry? luirhys: If I said that Dementors have the capacity to feel anger, then it would also imply that they also have the capacity to feel other emotions, which really skews up my perception of them. luirhys, who loves reading about the different ways we interpret different situations From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 04:36:29 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:36:29 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189449 > Nikkalmati > > I like this idea. I would point out that Sirius was locked up and presumably would not be free to roam about. Also, he may be undetectable in his Anamagus form. What do people think? Is an Anamagus perceived by magic? The Sneakoscope knew about Peter and the map saw him too. Mike: First off, I too liked blackcatnocturnal's answer to the Sirius question. Now on to yours, Nik. This is a tough one because we don't know the protection spell that DD used. I mean, we know he used "blood magic" and combined it with the "love" protection based in Lily's blood. But was it designed to sense danger to Harry? Did it work like a pseudo-unplottable spell, hiding Harry from anyone that didn't know he was there? Knowing Dumbledore, I gotta believe it was both a complicated and difficult spell to perform. And it must have been too difficult to crack, unless you understood the basis upon which the spell drew its power. Which LV and the DEs did not. As for Sirius the dog; we know the animagus form fooled the Dementors, but polyjuice also fooled them. I don't think polyjuice would have fooled DD's spell. But detecting someone in animagus form and reading their intent are two different things. Sirius said that when he was a dog, his thoughts were more animalistic than human. So would DD's spell, if it was supposed to detect intent, been able to detect the intent of an animagus? I'm thinking not. I'm thinking that if Ron had brought Scabbers over to the Dursleys, the spell would have allowed him to enter. Too bad Ron didn't have Scabbers in his pocket when he and the twins rescued Harry, to test this theory. > Nikkalmati > > I also think Harry had gone beyond the area of the magical protections. I think just the house and immediate area are "safe" for him. That is why the Order has to put guards around the house in OOP. Mike: I agree with your "safe" area theory, though I wonder if the Dementors could have approached the house, in OotP, if Harry had been there instead? Do you think DD's protection included Dementors? Could an intent spell read those of a Dementor? But I think the Order guards were supposed to keep Harry from wandering off, more than to protect Harry if he did. Or is that what you meant? From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 05:28:27 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 05:28:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189450 Thanks for the questions! 1. What did you first think after reading about Harry's latest bout of underage magic? Did you also think that he would be expelled or that Ministry wizards would come to arrest him or at least to break his wand in half? dzturtleshell: I originally expected something similar to OoTP, I figured Harry would be expelled and the expulsion would be overturned (before term started) after an intervention by DD. Personally, I didn't think the magic was too big of a deal, not much different than the disappearing glass at the zoo or the spontaneous hair growth before he knew he was a wizard. 2. Realizing that both Ron and Hermione were abroad, where was the first place that you thought Harry would go? dzturtleshell: I expected him to go to Hagrid. I didn't know how he'd get there, but Harry's resourceful, he'd find a way. 3. Harry senses something/someone watching him, he sees the outline of "something very big, with wide, gleaming eyes," Who/what did you first think of upon reading this? dzturtleshell: Something out of the Monster Book of Monsters ;) 4. We know that Harry's location is relatively unknown, so much that even DE's/Voldemort couldn't swoop down on him during DH, even though "they know the general area of the house,"- yet, Ron and the twins were able to rescue him in CoS and now Sirius in his Animagus form was also able to locate him . How do you think they know where to find Harry at all? dzturtleshell: I always wondered how Ron found Harry's house in CoS. But, I assume Hagrid told Sirius where he was taking Harry when Hagrid borrowed Sirius's bike on that fateful night 12 years ago. (Meaning before Hagrid learned that Sirius was the traitor, of course) 5. There must be hundreds of wizards all over Britain that would've stuck out their wand arm, without needing transportation. How do you think the Knight bus distinguishes those that would be needing their services? dzturtleshell: As someone else mentioned, I figure it's something like hailing a cab. Like a definitive motion of the arm being thrust outward... Also, Harry had a need for transportation in the back of his mind. The magic of the Bus might be able to sense that? 6. Harry is almost run over by the bus, yet we know that it dodges cars and scatters mailboxes. Do you think Harry would have really been run over? dzturtleshell: No, all of those cars and mailboxes it dodges are also pretty close calls. It always seems like it will hit everything, but it does manage to miss (with a decidely narrow margin of error). 7. We are introduced to Stan Shunpike, the conductor of the Knight bus. Harry places him at around eighteen or nineteen years old. We should've seen him at Hogwarts in Harry's first year. What do you think of his magical education? dzturtleshell: I figured he couldn't afford Hogwarts. We later learned that Tom Riddle had a scholarship, but Tom Riddle was very bright. Maybe Stan didn't qualify. Or... Did we ever actually see Stan do any magic? Maybe he's a squib that works within the magical world, like Filch. 8. It says in the newspaper that "Black" (eventually we know it was that rat Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What spell do you think he used? Do you think the Killing Curse was involved, or that Pettigrew would be powerful enough to cast a similar curse? dzturtleshell: Even after we learned about AK, I assumed that something that would kill 13/12 people all at once would be some sort of explosion. Why couldn't a spell cause a gas pipe to explode (the cover story the Ministry used)? Also, was it a curse that only affected Muggles? It didn't actually kill any wizards after all. How could Pettigrew be sure that his curse wouldn't kill Sirius? 9. Although we know from CoS that Azkaban inspires fear even to brave people (a.k.a Hagrid), this is the first time the guards are mentioned. What was your first idea of what/who they would be? dzturtleshell: Again, something from the Monster Book of Monsters. 10. Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than Cornelius Fudge, Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an important political figure came to fetch Harry? dzturtleshell: Well we had already learned that Voldy's biggest supporter was on the loose and considering the title of the book was the Prisoner of Azkaban, it made sense to me that Black would be going after Harry. If I were Minister of Magic, I wouldn't want to be the one in charge when the most feared man alive broke out of prison AND killed the Boy Who Lived. I'd think Harry's safety was pretty important to Fudge right about now and expected there were some undercover guards (Aurors once we learned the term in GoF) hidden on Diagon Alley during Harry's stay there. 11. Fudge explains that Aunt Marge has been restored to normal and that the Dursleys are prepared to take him in next holidays, no matter how angry they were. Do you think that Fudge knows about Harry's blood protection in Privet Drive ? dzturtleshell: Doubtful. DD was pretty quiet about that one. And even if DD did share it with Fudge, I doubt Fudge could comprehend it. Fudge probably assumed they were like a normal family that actually liked Harry when he wasn't blowing up mean spinster aunts (and probably assumed the threat of Sirius Black would be resolved by next summer) 12. Harry is relieved from any punishment for blowing up his Aunt, and doesn't even get expelled for using underage magic. Fudge even looks uncomfortable and deliberately makes excuses to not explain his actions. What was your first reaction to this? dzturtleshell: It was strange. I didn't understand, but it's only the third chapter. It was one of the things I was looking forward to learning about as I read on! 13. On a different note, with the knowledge of the series, do you think Dementor's can get angry? dzturtleshell: Sure. Something that feeds on emotion would be pretty full of emotion, wouldn't it? ~ dzturtleshell :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 12 15:00:25 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:00:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189451 > blackcatnocturne (entering delurk mode now): > > But Dumbledore, along with everyone else, was under the impression that Sirius was a Death Eater. Therefore, I don't think he would have seen any reason to adjust the wards to deliberately guard against Sirius, because he's already "guarded against" i.e. the wards keep Death Eaters out, Sirius is a Death Eater, the wards will keep Sirius out. > Pippin: Not only that, there are no spells specifically to bar traitors or Sirius Black per se-- how could there be? There's hardly a plotline in the books that doesn't turn on the possibility of treachery and the immense difficulty of keeping a determined and powerful wizard out of someplace he wants to go. Even if Dumbledore stood watch himself, he couldn't expect to do a better job than the magic already in place, which never sleeps or eats or needs a potty break, and can't be bribed or blackmailed or distracted. The Death Eaters went to and fro upon the earth and up and down upon it, everywhere but Privet Drive, which stood impervious for sixteen solid years. Pippin From no.limberger at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 14:49:10 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:49:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR did not always appear to think things through In-Reply-To: References: <4C3767F3.90308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189452 >Librasmile wrote: >No JKR didn't think things through. Which in some ways sucks. But in >others provides us an opportunity. You wondered about "low class" >wizards like Stan Shunpike and why the law against underage magic seems >to have too many loopholes. I think the answers are fairly simple. >There ARE other wizard schools. And I'm not just talking about Durmstrang >or Beauxbatons. No.Limberger responds: Actually, JKR briefly mentions two other wizarding schools in GoF: the Salem Witches Institute (in the USA) and the Brazilian Wizarding School. See: http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Salem_Witches_Institute See: http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Brazilian_Wizarding_School It is likely that there are many other wizarding schools; JKR just didn't mention them in the books. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From no.limberger at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 19:43:36 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:43:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189453 >Zara wrote: >1) Ron bought Harry a Sneakoscope, Hermione bought him instructions and products >for broom care, and Hagrid bought him the book "Monster Book of Monsters". What >did you think of these gifts? What do they tell us about the senders and their >relationships with Harry? No.Limberger responds: Hermione's gift was the most practical and thoughtful in that she knew how much Harry loves to fly, so giving him broom care products was very appropriate. Hagrid's gift is also very useful in that it's the book that Harry will be using for his upcoming class that we find out later in the book will be taught by Hagrid. Ron's gift is fun and typical of the fun-loving Weasleys. >Zara wrote: >2) This story shows us several of the Weasleys interacting. What does it tell us about >the actors? What do you like/dislike about the characters in this scene and how >they are written? No.Limberger responds: The Weasleys are a fun family and get along very well with one another. Unlike families like the Dursleys or Malfoys, they're not preoccupied with appearances or wealth. In other words, they're not trying to impress anyone; they're just being themselves with no pretenses. >Zara wrote: >3) This story is also our first clue to the big Scabbers/Peter surprise in the climactic >scenes of the novel. What do you think of it in this context? No.Limberger responds: I hadn't previously. >Zara wrote: >4) This chapter includes information relevant to the relationship between the Muggle >and Wizard worlds, including Harry's History essay on witch burnings and Ron's >ignorance of the proper use of a telephone. What light do these details shed on >your understanding of this relationship? No.Limberger responds: Though a wizard, Harry was raised most of his life in the muggle world and knows it well, unlike Ron who was never exposed or used objects common to muggles. Given how common and widely-used phones are, it's a way for JKR to demonstrate just how unfamiliar wizards are of the muggle world. >Zara wrote: >In this as the third book of her series, Rowling devoted time in the first chapter >to recapping events an persons of significance. >Zara wrote: >5) What do you think of her choice to do this in PoA and other books of the >series? It is appropriate or unnecessary? No.Limberger responds: I believe it's appropriate. She didn't dwell on it that much and it gives people who hadn't read the previous books an opportunity to know a little about what was in them. >Zara wrote: >6) Do you like how she did it? Do you agree on her choice of things to re-introduce? >Did you find reading these bits pleasant, annoying, repetitive, etc.? No.Limberger responds: Yes, I did and I agree with what she chose to re-introduce. >Zara wrote: >7) Why do you think Dumbledore selected Percy to be Head Boy? Do you agree >or disagree with this decision? The other Head Boys/Girls identified in canon are >Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, James Potter, and Lily Evans. From this evidence, >what do you think is involved in choosing Hogwarts Head Boys/Girls? No.Limberger responds: I don't know why Dumbledore picked Percy or whether there may have been someone else more suitable. I can think of a few who would have been inappropriate as head boy and girl: Fred & George, Umbridge, Lupin, Peter, and Lockhart. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 13 22:15:12 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:15:12 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, No Limberger wrote: > >Zara wrote: > >4) This chapter includes information relevant to the relationship between > the Muggle > >and Wizard worlds, including Harry's History essay on witch burnings and > Ron's > >ignorance of the proper use of a telephone. What light do these details > shed on > >your understanding of this relationship? > > No.Limberger responds: > Though a wizard, Harry was raised most of his life in the muggle world and > knows > it well, unlike Ron who was never exposed or used objects common to > muggles. Given how common and widely-used phones are, it's a way for JKR > to demonstrate just how unfamiliar wizards are of the muggle world. > AmanitaMuscaria now - The witch-burning thing I found very difficult - while Wendolyn the Weird was enjoying the tickling sensation of the flames, real-world Muggle witches would have no such experience. It was my first jolt of reality impinging on JKR's world, and it was a very unpleasant one. It was incomparable with the later scene of Harry and Dudley getting back to Privet Drive after their encounter with the Dementors. From bart at moosewise.com Wed Jul 14 02:57:15 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:57:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR did not always appear to think things through In-Reply-To: References: <4C3767F3.90308@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <4C3D278B.1060808@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189455 On 7/13/2010 10:49 AM, No Limberger wrote: > > Actually, JKR briefly mentions two other wizarding schools in GoF: the Salem > Witches Institute (in the USA) and the Brazilian Wizarding School. The question is whether or not there are other wizarding schools for British students. Bart From no.limberger at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 13:47:43 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 06:47:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR did not always appear to think things through In-Reply-To: <4C3D278B.1060808@moosewise.com> References: <4C3767F3.90308@moosewise.com> <4C3D278B.1060808@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189456 >No.Limberger wrote: > Actually, JKR briefly mentions two other wizarding schools in GoF: the Salem > Witches Institute (in the USA) and the Brazilian Wizarding School. >Bart wrote: >The question is whether or not there are other wizarding schools >for British students. No.Limberger responds: Possibly, but whether they exist or not was clearly not germane for JKR to include within her writings. In my opinion, I don't believe so given that muggle-born students as with wizard-born students each received letters of admission from Hogwarts and, seemingly, no other school. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 14 14:24:32 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:24:32 -0000 Subject: JKR did not always appear to think things through In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189457 > >Bart wrote: > >The question is whether or not there are other wizarding schools > >for British students. > > No.Limberger responds: > Possibly, but whether they exist or not was clearly not germane for JKR > to include within her writings. In my opinion, I don't believe so given > that muggle-born students as with wizard-born students each received > letters of admission from Hogwarts and, seemingly, no other school. > Pippin: Hermione announces to Harry during their first ride on the Hogwarts Express that she's looked into other schools and Hogwarts is by far the best. So while Hogwarts is according to JKR's interviews the only wizarding school in Britain, there's nothing to stop a Muggleborn student from applying to schools abroad. Pippin From no.limberger at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:42:54 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 07:42:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189458 >Megan wrote: >1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a >5-year old in the shins? No.Limberger responds: There are several things that I would suspect about Marge. First, she was probably never married and never had any children of her own. Instead, she raised dogs. In other words, she was probably a spinster. Second, anything that she heard about Harry would have come from Vernon, who hated Harry. Thus, any opinion that she has about Harry is going to be highly biased against him. While it's not clear how Marge & Vernon were raised, they likely came from a working class family; so the notion that Vernon & Petunia placed in Marge's mind that Harry's father didn't work likely only increased Marge's hatred for Harry. Marge is cold, unsympathetic, authoritative and inflexible. >Megan wrote: >2. Given the little glimpse of Harry's life with the Dursleys that we see at >the beginning of each book, what do you think the Dursleys' neighbors >believe to be the reason that Harry attends St. Brutus's Secure Center >for Incurably Criminal Boys? And do you think they are concerned that >he is allowed to come home every summer? No.Limberger responds: Given how unpleasant the Dursleys are, it seems unlikely that they would have developed very good relationships with their neighbors and, unless being friends with the neighbors could elevate their own social status, I doubt that developing relationships with the neighbors was even a goal for the Dursleys. That being said, whether they knew about or cared about whether Harry was home from school is unclear. >Megan wrote: >3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control yourself >as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age? No.Limberger responds: Probably, but my patience has limits as anyone's does. >Megan wrote: >4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are watched as >closely by the ministry to see if they perform magic during the summer? >Why or why not? No.Limberger responds: I would guess that Harry is watched more closely than most given his history, but at this time, Harry isn't hated by the minister as during OotP. >Megan wrote: >5. OK, one more about Aunt Marge - can you think of any way in which >she could have been written to be more unlikeable? No.Limberger responds: Possibly, but she's so unlikeable from what we know about her already that adding more to make her even more unlikeable seems unnecessary. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From puduhepa98 at aol.com Thu Jul 15 02:46:25 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:46:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189459 > > Nikkalmati > > > > I also think Harry had gone beyond the area of the magical protections. I think just the house and immediate area are "safe" for him. That is why the Order has to put guards around the house in OOP. > > Mike: > I agree with your "safe" area theory, though I wonder if the Dementors could have approached the house, in OotP, if Harry had been there instead? Do you think DD's protection included Dementors? Could an intent spell read those of a Dementor? > > But I think the Order guards were supposed to keep Harry from wandering off, more than to protect Harry if he did. Or is that what you meant? > Nikkalmati I don't know if the Dementors would be able to approach the house. I think not. If Harry was to be truely safe there, all forms of evil had to be blocked. I think the guards were to defend Harry and call for help if needed. Harry was free to wander around and he didn't even know he was being watched. Mrs. Figg says something about not being able to help if the Dementors returned, which means to me Mundungus was supposed to use magic to protect Harry, but she couldn't. Nikkalmati From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jul 17 17:55:31 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 17 Jul 2010 17:55:31 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/18/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1279389331.9.83711.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189460 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday July 18, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! 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Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 18 20:10:57 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:10:57 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189462 >Liu wrote: > QUESTIONS: > What did you first think after reading about Harry's latest bout of underage > magic? Did you also think that he would be expelled or that Ministry wizards > would come to arrest him or at least to break his wand in half? Potioncat: I thought it was accidental, underage magic and didn't think there should be punishment. I've been surprised both by Harry's expectations and readers' opinions on the subject. > > Realizing that both Ron and Hermione were abroad, where was the first place that > you thought Harry would go? Potioncat: He didn't seem to have a plan at all. I didn't understand why he didn't think of DD or Hogwarts > > Harry senses something/someone watching him, he sees the outline of "something > very big, with wide, gleaming eyes," Who/what did you first think of upon > reading this? Potioncat: I was caught up in the adventure. I was already wondering about the Muggle escaped convict and was wondering if he would be the Prisoner of Azkaban, and here's a big creature of sorts after we've been introduced to the Monster Book of Monsters. Then right away we learn the Muggle Black is a wizard and was associated with LV. Lots of scary things early in the book. > > We know that Harry's location is relatively unknown, so much that even DE's/ > Voldemort couldn't swoop down on him during DH, even though "they know the > general area of the house,"- yet, Ron and the twins were able to rescue him in > CoS and now Sirius in his Animagus form was also able to locate him . How do you think they know where to find Harry at > all? Potioncat: Harry gave Ron and Hermione his address at the end of his first year. Sirius was in the general area?but several streets away from the Dursleys' house. I don't think he could have gotten to the house on his own. In fact, this may have been near the place that the Dementors will attack Harry and Dudley later on. > > There must be hundreds of wizards all over Britain that would've stuck out their > wand arm, without needing transportation. How do you think the Knight bus > distinguishes those that would be needing their services.? Potioncat: It seems sometimes the bus might make a mistake. I suppose a Muggle cab might stop for someone who is really waving to someone across the street. > > Harry is almost run over by the bus, yet we know that it dodges cars and > scatters mailboxes. Do you think Harry would have really been run over? Potioncat: No, but I'd still get out of the way. > > We are introduced to Stan Shunpike, the conductor of the Knight bus. Harry > places him at around eighteen or nineteen years old. We should've seen him at > Hogwarts in Harry's first year. What do you think of his magical education? Potioncat: Boy, a lot of speculation centered around Stan when PoA first came out. It's just the way JKR writes; she introduces characters who should have been familiar, but aren't. I mean, the other characters should have known them, but don't. The twins don't know the younger Gryffindors, Ron doesn't know Romilda, etc. So I think Stan most likely attended Hogwarts at least through OWLs. > > It says in the newspaper that "Black" (eventually we know it was that rat > Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What spell do you think he > used? Do you think the Killing Curse was involved, or that Pettigrew would be > powerful enough to cast a similar curse? Potioncat: I think he did something that caused an explosion that killed the Muggles and gave him the opportunity to be "killed" as well. There's several spells that cause things to explode. I don't know if he intended to kill the Muggles or simply didn't care. We will see Pettigrew do a good bit of advanced magic as the series progresses. So, was he always a talented student who was overshadowed by James and Sirius or did his association with LV provide an extra boost? > > Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than Cornelius Fudge, > Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an important political figure came to > fetch Harry? Potioncat: Probably because he was worried that something would happen to Harry and he would look bad. I don't think the general public knows that Black is thought to have a grudge against Harry, but Fudge does. > > Fudge explains that Aunt Marge has been restored to normal and that the > Dursleys are prepared to take him in next holidays, no matter how angry they > were. Do you think that Fudge knows about Harry's blood protection in Privet > Drive ? Potioncat: I think he knows there is some sort of protective magic involved. > > Harry is relieved from any punishment for blowing up his Aunt, and doesn't > even get expelled for using underage magic. Fudge even looks uncomfortable and > deliberately makes excuses to not explain his actions. What was your first > reaction to this? Potioncat: Since it seemed like accidental magic, I wasn't expecting any punishment. I thought the issue was the way the magic had involved a Muggle, but still was accidental. > > On a different note, with the knowledge of the series, do you think Dementor's > can get angry? Potioncat: Yes?I seem to recall that not only does Fudge mention it in this chapter, but they become harder to control as time goes on. I think there is emotion involved. Thanks for the questions! From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jul 18 20:49:35 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:49:35 -0000 Subject: promise/kappa/ Snape/13-curse/Az guards/ Witches' Institute/Wendolyn Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189463 Carol wrote in : << I didn't like Dobby and didn't think about his promise -- which he breaks as early as GoF with the stolen Gillyweed. Since Dobby was "free," it wasn't a binding promise, I suppose. If the choice was between breaking his word and saving Harry's life, obviously, he'll choose the latter. If he'd been Kreacher under the same order, he'd have had to choose to obey. >> In my opinion, the bindingness of a promise comes from the personal honor of the person who gave the promise (or it comes from fear of punishment like the Unbreakable Vow), not from a relationship of command and obedience. The commander can command, e.g.: "Don't tease Percy about his girlfiend" without having to demand "Promise me that you won't tease Percy about his girlfriend." sile_dubhghlase wrote in : << Snape criticizes Lupin's grading of a paper about Kappas as he moves up and down the aisles. Very poorly explained...That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia...Professor Lupin gave this an eight out of ten? I wouldn't have given it a three..." In reality, the Kappa is a Japanese water-demon, MOM >> Of course the Kappa is a Japanese water demon. They like cucumbers, which is why those cucumber sushi rolls are called kappa rolls. They want to wrestle human passers-by in order to drown them because they eat the intestines of drowned people. When a Kappa challenges you to wrestle, bow to it. Good manners requires it to respond by bowing to you. Whereupon the water will fall out of the bowl shaped depression on top of its head. When the bowl is empty, the Kappa has no power, except to sulk. I personally don't really think that Rowling put the statement that they are more commonly found in Mongolia into Snape's mouth in order to show that he didn't know his material. I think the most likely thing is that it was Rowling who made that mistake. But the game that whatever Rowling wrote in canon and cannot be wrong would require making up an explanation of why her statement is true. Which is theoretically possible: The English language originated in England, but now has more speakers in USA. The only thing is, I am under the impression that Mongolia is sort of like a desert, and would have few perennial streams to provide habitat for Kappas. dzturtleshell wrote in : << Food for thought, how much of [HM Snape protecting the students] was Snape's own personal concern for the safety of the students, and how much of it was Dumbledore's portrait hanging behind Snape's desk overseeing things every day? >> Even back in CoS, when McGonagall came into the staff room and said a student had been taken, "Snape gripped the back of a chair very hard and said, "How can you be sure?". I've always taken that as evidence that he cared about all the students' survival. Lui summarized PoA Chapter 3 in and asked: << It says in the newspaper that "Black" (eventually we know it was that rat Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What spell do you think he used? >> I think he cursed a gas main under the street to explode (which made it easy for the Ministry to use 'exploding gas main' as their excuse to the Muggles) and the explosion killed the people in a normal way. Plenty of listies (Annemehr, Pippin, Lui, dzturtleshell, Potioncat) gave the same answer to this question as I did, but before I did. Ordinarily, I'd figured that this answer had already been well represented and had no need for me to chime in, but this time it is a segue to my next point. One way a wizard could know about gas mains is by being a Muggle-born. I think Rowling intended Pettigrew to be Muggle-borm because she had that interview answer about a Muggle-born is not allowed to become a Death Eater except in very rare circumstances. I think the rare circumstance she had in mind was Pettigrew being the Secret Keeper. Lui wrote in : << Q. Although we know from CoS that Azkaban inspires fear even to brave people (a.k.a Hagrid), this is the first time the guards are mentioned. What was your first idea of what/who they would be? luirhys: I thought at first- Elite Wizards. >> Me, too. No Limburger wrote in : << Actually, JKR briefly mentions two other wizarding schools in GoF: the Salem Witches Institute (in the USA) and the Brazilian Wizarding School. >> I feel absolutely certain that the Salem Witches' Institute is not a school, but rather a club for middle-aged witches. Because I feel sure that it is a joke on the name of the Women's Institute. The Women's Institute seems to have been a big deal in rural Britain between the two World Wars, based on how often it is mentioned by mystery novels by Agatha Christie and the other classic mystery authors. begins its article by saying << The Women's Institute was formed in 1915 with two clear aims: to revitalise rural communities and to encourage women to become more involved in producing food during the First World War. Since then the organisation's aims have broadened and it is now the largest women's voluntary organisation in the UK. The organisation celebrated its 95th anniversary in 2010 and currently has approximately 205,000 members in 6,500 WIs. >> AmanitaMuscaria wrote in : << The witch-burning thing I found very difficult - while Wendolyn the Weird was enjoying the tickling sensation of the flames, real-world Muggle witches would have no such experience. It was my first jolt of reality impinging on JKR's world, and it was a very unpleasant one. >> To me, the witch-burning thing was a clear example of one of the important jobs done by education: lying to the young. I am convinced that the obsession with Wizarding Secrecy is because the wizards are quite realistically scared of the MUggles. This is illustrated by Professor Binns's explanation of the founding of Hogwarts: "They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." Incidentally, it has often been explained on list how this could cause distrust of Muggle-borns, who might reveal the hiding places and hidden identities to their Muggle relatives, such that it was not necessarily bigotry when Salazar "disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy." But the wizarding folk don't like to admit to themselves that they are overpowered by Muggles, so they tell themselves cover stories which claim that Muggles and Muggle-borns are inferior, that wizarding secrecy is because "everyone'd be wantin' magic solutions to their problems. Nah, we're best left alone[,]" and that the atrocities for protection against which the Knights of Walpurgis was founded really weren't anything for young wizards and witches to be frightened of. From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 22:29:07 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:29:07 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189464 > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban > Chapter 3: The Knight Bus Mike: This was one of my favorite chapters in the entire series. We got to see Harry interact in the wizarding world, without anyone knowing who he was, until Fudge showed up. We got to see everyday, ordinary witches and wizards, going about their day. It was exciting to see such a boring part of wizarding existence. ;-) BTW, I loved how we saw a sickly Mrs. Marsh in this chapter and later, in OotP, the same Mrs. Marsh shows up on the Knight Bus. It's one of the things that JKR does well throughout the books. > QUESTIONS: > We are introduced to Stan Shunpike, the conductor of the Knight > bus. What do you think of his magical education? Mike: This is what I mean. I know Stan shows up later as a kind of running joke (until DH). But I enjoyed the moment in this chapter, Stan and Ernie just being bus driver and conductor. It was a slice of life, with nobody special (as far as Stan and Ernie knew). Oh yeah, the question. I pretty much figured Stan was a dropout. In fact, I figured Stan quit after his third or fourth year, probably never even made it to his OWLS. Or if he did, he didn't pass anything and was told his magical education is over. As Pippin said, he was then free to practice whatever magic he could perform, he was already out of Hogwarts so they couldn't expel him. > QUESTION: > It says in the newspaper that "Black" (eventually we know it was > that rat Pettigrew) murdered thirteen people with one curse. What > spell do you think he used? Mike: I didn't know at the time, but when I later learned of the Reducto spell, I figured Pettigrew used that to blow up the street. Whichever people that weren't killed by flying debris probably *could* have died from a gas main explosion. As far as power of the curse, Pettigrew was trapped and probably had a powerful incentive to put behind the curse. We know in the WW that intent counts for a lot, and I'm thinking adrenaline doesn't hurt. Pettigrew probably had both going for him, enough to conjure a very powerful Reducto. > QUESTION: > Harry steps down to London and is greeted by none other than > Cornelius Fudge, Minister of Magic. Why do you think such an > important political figure came to fetch Harry? Mike: Fudge? Important? Well, I guess by position, but not in stature. I had already pegged Fudge as the bumbling bafoon, political division. > QUESTION: > Do you think that Fudge knows about Harry's blood protection in > Privet Drive ? Mike: I figure Dumbledore told Fudge that Harry was protected at Privet Drive and that was about it. I doubt very much Fudge knew how or what was protecting Harry. Dumbledore doesn't give up those kind of secrets very easily. In fact, I'll bet the Order didn't know it was "blood protection" either. > QUESTION: > On a different note, with the knowledge of the series, do you > think Dementor's can get angry? Mike: Well, Fudge thinks so. He said they were angrier than he'd ever seen them when Black escaped. I don't know how Fudge can tell, or even if he could tell. But that's what he said, right before he shuddered. In this same chapter, in his talk with Harry. We're never given anything to refute that, so even if it was Fudge, I gotta believe he wasn't completely making it up. ~Mike From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 04:25:07 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 04:25:07 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189465 > Mike: > I didn't know at the time, but when I later learned of the Reducto spell, I figured Pettigrew used that to blow up the street. Whichever people that weren't killed by flying debris probably *could* have died from a gas main explosion. > > As far as power of the curse, Pettigrew was trapped and probably had a powerful incentive to put behind the curse. We know in the WW that intent counts for a lot, and I'm thinking adrenaline doesn't hurt. Pettigrew probably had both going for him, enough to conjure a very powerful Reducto. Joey: Well, then it could have been Deprimo or Confringo as well, I suppose. Not sure if they can *kill* though. Probably the effect on Muggles is quite different. Cheers, ~Joey :-) From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 00:33:37 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 00:33:37 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189466 > Joey: > > Well, then it could have been Deprimo or Confringo as well, I > suppose. Not sure if they can *kill* though. Probably the effect > on Muggles is quite different. Mike: Uhh, Deprimo? Confringo? I don't remember those. What do they do? What would they do in this situation, for Pettigrew I mean? Thanks :) Mike From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 03:57:05 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 03:57:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189467 > > Joey: > > > > Well, then it could have been Deprimo or Confringo as well, I > > suppose. Not sure if they can *kill* though. Probably the effect > > on Muggles is quite different. > > Mike: > Uhh, Deprimo? Confringo? I don't remember those. What do they do? What would they do in this situation, for Pettigrew I mean? > > Thanks :) > Mike Joey: :-) I remember both as used by Hermione in DH. Deprimo at Lovegood's place to blast a hole to make the DEs see Harry and Confringo at Bathilda's place to blast Nagini and flee for life (but ended up blasting quite a few things including Harry's wand). Both blasted things which is why I said they might have been used by Pettigrew as well. Cheers, ~Joey :-) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 20 12:44:14 2010 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (Susan A) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:44:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189468 Joey: > > > Well, then it could have been Deprimo or Confringo as well, I > > > suppose. Not sure if they can *kill* though. Probably the effect > > > on Muggles is quite different. Mike: > > Uhh, Deprimo? Confringo? I don't remember those. What do they do? > > What would they do in this situation, for Pettigrew I mean? Joey: > I remember both as used by Hermione in DH. Deprimo at Lovegood's > place to blast a hole to make the DEs see Harry and Confringo at > Bathilda's place to blast Nagini and flee for life (but ended up > blasting quite a few things including Harry's wand). Both blasted > things which is why I said they might have been used by Pettigrew > as well. SSSusan: Yes, per the Lexicon, Confringo is a Blasting Curse. It was used by Harry in DH to blast the sidecar that had fallen off the flying motorbike and, as Joey said, by Hermione in Bathilda's house. Again per the Lexicon, Deprimo "[b]lasts a hole through the target object." The only reference given is Hermione's use of it at the Lovegoods' house. http://www.hplex.info/gate/magic.html I think Joey is correct that either could have been used by Pettigrew to cause the explosion, particularly if there was a gas line and he knew about it. Siriusly Snapey Susan, poking her head around the place for old times' sake From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 03:58:53 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:58:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 3: The Knight Bus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189469 > Joey: > > > > Well, then it could have been Deprimo or Confringo as well, I > > > > suppose. Not sure if they can *kill* though. Probably the effect > > > > on Muggles is quite different. > > Mike: > > > Uhh, Deprimo? Confringo? I don't remember those. What do they do? > > > What would they do in this situation, for Pettigrew I mean? > > Joey: > > I remember both as used by Hermione in DH. Deprimo at Lovegood's > > place to blast a hole to make the DEs see Harry and Confringo at > > Bathilda's place to blast Nagini and flee for life (but ended up > > blasting quite a few things including Harry's wand). Both blasted > > things which is why I said they might have been used by Pettigrew > > as well. > SSSusan: > Yes, per the Lexicon, Confringo is a Blasting Curse. It was used by Harry in DH to blast the sidecar that had fallen off the flying motorbike and, as Joey said, by Hermione in Bathilda's house. > > Again per the Lexicon, Deprimo "[b]lasts a hole through the target object." The only reference given is Hermione's use of it at the Lovegoods' house. > > http://www.hplex.info/gate/magic.html > > I think Joey is correct that either could have been used by Pettigrew to cause the explosion, particularly if there was a gas line and he knew about it. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan, > poking her head around the place for old times' sake Joey: Ah, Lexicon says it all. Also, I wonder why 3 spells (Reducto, Confringo, Deprimo) would be there to give the same effect? Are spells also like words where different words could give the same meaning? Not sure if there are other such spells. Cheers, ~Joey, who wishes SSSusan would poke her head around more often :-) From pamneubauer at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 05:06:44 2010 From: pamneubauer at sbcglobal.net (Pam) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 05:06:44 -0000 Subject: Chapter 3 Discussion of POA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189470 After reading so many great posts I just have a couple thoughts. I have always thought of the protection around Harry's house as extending just to the area around the house. If he leaves the house he is vulnerable. This is one reason he is told to not to leave the house in OOP. So whatever the charm is, it only works within a certain distance. As far as Ron and Hermione knowing where to find Harry, he gave them his address so they could write to him. As for Black, he was close friends with the Potters for several years and would have heard about Petunia from Lily. Lily may have said where her sister lived, or at least which town. However, I think it is most likely that Hagrid told Sirius where he was taking Harry when Hagrid borrowed the bike. We are told (will be told) in chapter 10 (The Marauder's Map) that Hagrid argued with Black about who would take care of Harry. Regarding the underage magic, one thing that has always bothered me is how underage magic is detected and punished or not. We know from OOP that it is usually a simple offense and it is unheard of to hold a full court hearing for it. We also know that Harry got in trouble when Dobby used magic near Harry in CS. But why doesn't Harry get in trouble when Tonks uses magic to pack Harry's trunk in OOP? I know she doesn't have a trace on her, but she is obviously standing near Harry when she does magic. This use of magic never mentioned at his trial or any other time. Is this just an oversight on Rowling's part? Any ideas? I haven't yet heard a really good explanation of this. Pam From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 15:16:31 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:16:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward In-Reply-To: <4C127AEB.000039.05392@SHEILA-PC> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189471 sile_dubhghlase wrote: When Flitwick calls the time and collects the papers, Snape's the first one out of the hall, but he lingers in the shadows to hear what James Potter and his friends have to say about it. They're obviously aware that Snape's listening in because they're tossing the answers to the questions around like they're child's play, knowing DADA is a subject Snape struggles with. Carol responds: My apologies for the belated response. I've been rather busy and haven't had a chance to post for awhile. I interpreted this scene very differently. Severus is not eavesdropping on MWPP (though Harry does when he enters Snape's memory without permission). He's studying his own test questions (a la Hermione) and probably rethinking his own answers, wondering whether he forgot anything. But notice that, even though his handwriting is tiny, he has written longer, more detailed answers than anyone else, whereas MWPP are laughing off the exam, joking about the werewolf questions since one of them happens to be a werewolf. (Wormtail, IIRC, somehow managed to forget two of the five traits that distinguish a werewolf from a true wolf. I doubt very much that Severus missed any of them.) They're not yet aware of Severus's presence, as shown by Sirius's later exclamation, "Look who it is!" Nor is he aware of them, or he'd have drawn his wand before they approached him. Instead, when they attack him, he's still studying his exam notes, which he hastily drops to draw his wand in self-defense. At any rate, in my view, the long, detailed answers are evidence of Severus's expertise, even then, in DADA. We also see his skill in Potions an at inventing spells at an early age. I wouldn't dismiss his abilities in any of those subjects (DD didn't)--or as a duelist, as both Lockhart and Harry learned to their cost. (Well, Lockhart didn't learn anything from the experience, but he should have.) Regarding the question of werewolf cubs under Hagrid's bed, which, of course, is a lie intended to slander Hagrid (regardless of whether Harry survives), I think that many Wizards might have believed it considering the apparently widespread belief that werewolves lived in the Forbidden Forest. Carol, who can't recall whether that belief was mentioned again after SS?PS From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 15:59:11 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:59:11 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes, hosting a soul piece In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189472 Mike wrote: > Why it went to live in Harry was never really explained, maybe souls naturally seek a living thing to habitate? Maybe a piece of soul is so corrupted that it doesn't know to return to the soul bank to await redeployment? Carol responds: Voldemort says something about being separated from his body and, in another place, "less than spirit," so it's clear, I think, that the soul piece couldn't return to his mutilated soul (or to his apparently dead body--it's unclear what happened to it, only that he couldn't return to it). I think that the soul piece would simply have disintegrated like the soul bit in a destroyed Horcrux if Harry hadn't been near. But those soul bits don't enter the nearest person or Harry, Ron, Hermione, DD, and everyone else who destroyed a Horcrux (except Crabbe) would be host to the soul bit, which Hermione says can't survive outside its container. The soul bit inhabiting Harry was clearly a fluke--no spell involved, etc. I've always assumed that it entered him through the open cut on his forehead as part of the backfiring Avada Kedavra. We know that the soul bit was *in Harry's scar* (which was his means of knowing Voldemort's emotions and, eventually, his thoughts). We also know that the cut was still unhealed when baby Harry was placed on the Dursleys' doorstep. Altogether coincidental, but so is the whole situation, from Snape's love for Lily to Voldemort's broken promise to let her live. Carol, now wondering whether the soul bit inhabiting Harry's scar-to-be was somehow part of the Love magic From sweenlit at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 17:13:27 2010 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:13:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horcruxes, hosting a soul piece In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189473 Lynda: I think that JKR makes it clear that Voldemort was incapable of reintegrating his own soul piece due to his unwillingness to love, forgive and live as a mortal who realizes that death is a normal part of being human, or unwilling to accept his own humanity. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 17:49:04 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:49:04 -0000 Subject: Chapter 3 Discussion of POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pam" wrote: > But why doesn't Harry get in trouble when Tonks uses magic to pack > Harry's trunk in OOP? I know she doesn't have a trace on her, but > she is obviously standing near Harry when she does magic. zanooda: Not only that, the Advance Guard used a number of spells in the house (Disillusionment Charm, Lumos, Scourgify, something to unlock Harry's door etc.), but I assumed that DD arranged this with the Ministry. It was like when the Weasleys came to pick Harry up in GoF - Arthur did magic, but Harry didn't get punished - obviously it was arranged officially that they would be coming. True, unlike GoF, in OotP DD was on bad terms with Fudge, but Harry needed to be transported to London, so it was a reasonable request, and Fudge didn't have a reason to refuse, I think. Especially if the Dursleys were not home. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's the only explanation I can think of :-). From terrianking at aol.com Fri Jul 23 15:24:18 2010 From: terrianking at aol.com (terrianking at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:24:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 3 Discussion of POA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189475 pamneubauer at sbcglobal.net writes: After reading so many great posts I just have a couple thoughts. I have always thought of the protection around Harry's house as extending just to the area around the house. If he leaves the house he is vulnerable. This is one reason he is told to not to leave the house in OOP. So whatever the charm is, it only works within a certain distance. Robert: In other book descriptions we hear of Harry wandering the neighborhoods around Privet Drive in boredom, just to get away from the house, presumably. He goes shopping with the Dursleys, goes to Muggle school until he's 11, to the zoo and most notably spends a great part of one particular day in a neighborhood playground before following Dudley and his gang home. He does all of this, yet the only wizarding folk who see him are those that run into him by accident on the street or in shops. As long as he can call Petunia's home HIS home, Harry is protected no matter where he is, IMO. By the time OOP takes place, the DE might have a better idea of exactly where the house is located and might be wandering the area, too, hoping to run into him somewhere. They would have more people in their ranks to spare to do this now, unlike in the past. JMO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Jul 24 06:25:15 2010 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 06:25:15 -0000 Subject: Protecting Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189476 > > Another thing that occurs to me is how much =older= Dumbledore is than > Snape. Whether you peg his age as 150 or a mere 115, he was still > born in the 19th century, when even Muggles had a much different > attitude to risk (for children or anyone else) than they did by the > late 20th century. > > > --Margaret Dean > I suspect that JKR didn't really think this out. There are a lot of contradictions in the course of the series. Even in OOP there was at least one person, one of the examiners, who remembered Dumbledore as an OWL student, so how old would SHE have had to be? Then he's already teaching at Hogwarts in the 40s when the young Tom Riddle is a student there, but I got the impression, in DH, that he was fairly young at that time. There's nothing that gives you an exact timeline for DD and his family, but I just couldn't believe he was quite as old as JKR tells you in the interviews. Sue Bursztynski > From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jul 24 17:58:03 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Jul 2010 17:58:03 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/25/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1279994283.79.20267.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189477 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday July 25, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 25 17:03:55 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 25 Jul 2010 17:03:55 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/25/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1280077435.8.76685.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189478 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! 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URL: From dzturtleshell at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 01:01:14 2010 From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 01:01:14 -0000 Subject: OT: Wizarding World of Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189479 I don't really know if we're supposed to post about theme parks... but I'm just so excited! I just got back from the Wizarding World of Harry Potter at Universal Studios. It was phenomenal! It's still a bit crowded (it only opened a month ago), but the crowds lighten up a lot in the evening after 5 pm. If you have the chance to go, take it! And if you live in Florida, now's the time to get an annual pass because the ticket is a Harry Potter commemorative ticket! If you want more details about what they've got there, let me know! ~ dzturtleshell :) From Puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Jul 26 03:54:17 2010 From: Puduhepa98 at aol.com (puduhepa98) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 03:54:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189480 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron Harry happily finds himself able to explore Diagon Alley all by himself and do his homework while eating ice cream. He has to restrain himself from making too many purchases, especially the new Firebolt broom, which goes at 150 mph. When he meets up with Ron and Hermione on the last day, they discuss Sirius and why Harry wasn't punished. They go to the animal store to get something for Scabbers to perk him up and to get Hermione an owl. She gets a Kneazle instead. At the Leaky Cauldron, we see Percy as Head Boy and more of the Twin's sense of humor. Harry overhears Mr. and Mrs. Weasley arguing about whether to tell Harry about Sirius, and Harry learns he is the intended target for the escapee. We hear Sirius was LV's right hand man. Harry decides he understands why Fudge did not punish him and why they have Ministry cars for the trip to the station. He agrees that he is safe wherever DD is, but he is not happy about not being able to go to Hogsmeade. 1. Percy seems to have no sense of humor. Did you feel sorry for Percy at any point or just accept that he deserves to be teased? 2. Why does Crookshanks attack Scabbers on sight? Does he sense Scabbers is evil or just that he is not a rat? 3. Is the conflict between Scabbers and Crookshanks meant to reflect the conflict between Ron and Hermione? 4. Harry, we are led to believe, has plenty of money and could afford anything he wants. Why is he so frugal? Is his frugality meant to be a sign of virtue, a good example to the readers? 5. Did you agree with Mr. Weasley that Harry should be told about Black's motives? 6. Did you notice the strange fact that Scabbers was much too long-lived? What did you think it meant? 7. The guards at Azkaban are mentioned again along with the information that DD doesn't like them. What did you think they were at this point? Please add any questions you may have. Nikkalmati NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 5 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 06:12:36 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 06:12:36 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189481 > 1. Percy seems to have no sense of humor. Did you feel sorry for Percy at any > point or just accept that he deserves to be teased? Joey: I think that he doesn't *deserve* to be *teased* but he can be asked to tone down when he becomes a bit too bossy. > 2. Why does Crookshanks attack Scabbers on sight? Does he sense Scabbers is > evil or just that he is not a rat? Joey: >From what Sirius says about the cat, Crookshanks seems to have sensed both! > 3. Is the conflict between Scabbers and Crookshanks meant to reflect the > conflict between Ron and Hermione? Joey: I always thought of it as just yet another point of disagreement for Ron and Hermione. > 4. Harry, we are led to believe, has plenty of money and could afford anything > he wants. Why is he so frugal? Is his frugality meant to be a sign of virtue, > a good example to the readers? Joey: I think it is a good virtue and that too for a 13 year old. He has seen poverty and has realized the importance of being wise when it comes to spending money. All said and done, he is still an orphan even in the WW, at this point. So, I think it was pretty wise of him not to have been reckless in buying so costly a broomstick. Yet he is not too stingy - he does spend to have a good time with his friends. > 5. Did you agree with Mr. Weasley that Harry should be told about Black's > motives? Joey: Yeah. Harry has been quite curious and trouble-inviting in the past. > 6. Did you notice the strange fact that Scabbers was much too long-lived? What > did you think it meant? Joey: Actually, the sudden focus on Scabbers did intrigue me till Lupin was introduced. The clue for Animagus was in PS/SS with McGonagall turning into a cat but I never applied the concept to the ever-snoozing "Scabbers." I find it is quite odd that Scabbers' health remained quite normal when he was around Quirrell, when entire Hogwarts was stunned by a series of Petrifications and when the Trio was discussing them all. Had some clue been given at those junctures I might not have been this surprised, I suppose. > 7. The guards at Azkaban are mentioned again along with the information that DD > doesn't like them. What did you think they were at this point? Joey: No change in imagination. My curiosity intensified. That's all. Thanks, Nikkalmati, for the nice summary and questions! Cheers, ~Joey :-) From technomad at intergate.com Mon Jul 26 15:55:23 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:55:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100726105523.j9qg5re8e808g0cg@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189482 Quoting Joey Smiley : >> 1. Percy seems to have no sense of humor. Did you feel sorry for >> Percy at any >> point or just accept that he deserves to be teased? > > Joey: > > I think that he doesn't *deserve* to be *teased* but he can be asked > to tone down when he becomes a bit too bossy. I got awfully tired of the twins' behavior after a while, and thought someone should have yanked the twins' leashes up short. If Percy could have just laughed at their jokes, they'd probably have left him alone. Unfortunately, poor Percy doesn't seem to have much of a sense of humor. It also may have been that he was left more-or-less "in charge" by his mother when she was busy with baby Ron and Ginny, and the twins resented being given orders by another kid. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 16:05:19 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:05:19 -0000 Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > > > > > Pippin: > > We seem to be working from a different understanding of the idioms. I don't think you will find many English speakers who agree that "best" ever means "only". As Potioncat says, strictly speaking it ought to mean at least three things are being compared. Even colloquially, no one who said, "This is the best restaurant in New York" would be taken as implying there was only one. > > Alla: > > Ah but I agree about restaurant's example. You have to compare the foods in many restaurants to indeed decide which one is the best one and while it may sound ridiculous to you, I do not think you have to compare the methods of fighting dementors to say that they disagreed on the best one. Or let me put it this way, I think you do not have to do that if you are Snape, yes even if it goes against the correct way to intepret idiom of English language. I can totally see Snape NOT ever bring up any OTHER methods and call his the BEST one and expect his students to take it on faith. Simply because his arrogant highness deemed his method the best in my opinion. > > After all when he came to take over Lupin's lesson he did not ask Lupin's students whose method of teaching the material was the best. He just took the werewolves out of order and deemed that this would be for the best. And no, I do not think that this is a direct analogy, I understand how it is flawed in some way, but to me it works in a sense that it shows to me his arrogant and superior way of thinking. He who supposedly knows everything. Never mind that Kappa of course. > > JMO, > > Alla > Carol responds: Belatedly jumping in here. Snape's essay assignments in DADA seem to follow the textbook, much as Lupin's did back in PoA. "Best" does imply that at least three methods were mentioned, if not by Snape than by the textbook chapter on Dementors. If the essay is as difficult as the narrator suggests, it certainly requires research, perhaps quoting evidence from experts (such as the text book author or library books from the Reserved Section) to defend the chosen method. If it were merely parroting back what Snape said in class, there'd be nothing difficult about it (at least, not for students who take notes or have good memories!). Frequently, we get Harry's view of Snape only to find that Harry is wrong. Sometimes. though, as here, we get Harry's view and no confirmation or refutation. In those cases, the reader is left to judge for him or herself. Those who hate Snape and like Harry will assume that Harry is right, both about the best way of dealing with Dementors and about the grade Harry will receive on his essay will assume that Snape is in the wrong. Those who view Snape as a genuine Dark Arts/DADA expert who protects Harry despite hating him will give him benefit of a doubt. I've always assumed that Snape, who is unaffected by the Dementor that Fudge brings into Hogwarts, uses some form of Occlumency to protect himself. Fudge, too, is unharmed by the Dementor, which accepts his authority to the extent that it enters the school with him, ostensibly to protect him, before it pounces on the helpless (but hardly innocent Barty Jr.). How did Fudge keep that renegade Dementor from attacking anyone else? Or did Snape or McGonagall both hit it with their Patronuses (DD not being present)? Or did Snape, who in Percy's words, "knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts"--so much so that DD wants Snape and only Snape to treat his cursed arm after he puts on the ring--use some method that we don't know about to dismiss or destroy the Dementor? We never find out. All we know is that Barty Jr. was its only victim. Personally, I don't think that Fudge or McGonagall did anything except scream at each other and alert Dumbledore--which means that dealing with the Dementor was left to Snape. I have no doubt that Snape can either fend off or fight Dementors. If his method is Occlumency, no wonder Harry objects to it--and no wonder Harry expects a bad grade on the essay. Others have discussed why Snape doesn't demonstrate his Patronus, and it's clear that the Patronus charm isn't taught at Hogwarts (which makes me wonder where Umbridge, of all people, learned it). The only reasons that Lupin taught it to Harry in PoA (setting aside a mutual desire for Harry to succeed at Quidditch), were his extreme susceptibility to Dementors and the fact that he's Harry Potter. And the only reason he succeeded, even given Harry's determination, was the lucky fact that they had a Dementor to practice on. Not even Hermione can sustain her Patronus against a Dementor, although Luna can (oddly enough, her natural optimism seems to protect her rather than making her a prime target for Dementors who would want, I'd think, to suck out those happy thoughts). At any rate, if I recall correctly, Lupin mentions that there's more than one way to resist a Dementor, but he also admits to not being an expert on the subject. Maybe Snape *is*! Carol, wishing she had time to look it up and apologizing for being so far behind on posting From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 04:30:01 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 04:30:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189484 > 1. Percy seems to have no sense of humor. Did you feel sorry for Percy at any > point or just accept that he deserves to be teased? Joey: I never thought that he deserved to be teased. Yet he deserved to be put in his place whenever he became a bit too bossy. > 2. Why does Crookshanks attack Scabbers on sight? Does he sense Scabbers is > evil or just that he is not a rat? Joey: >From whatever Sirius says later about the cat, looks like Crookshanks sensed both. > 3. Is the conflict between Scabbers and Crookshanks meant to reflect the > conflict between Ron and Hermione? Joey: Now you mention it, maybe it did. However, I didn't think so at any point in time so far. To me, it was just yet another topic where Ron and Hermione disagreed. > 4. Harry, we are led to believe, has plenty of money and could afford anything > he wants. Why is he so frugal? Is his frugality meant to be a sign of virtue, > a good example to the readers? Joey: I just thought he was being wise as far as the Firebolt (and a few other items) was concerned. Yes, it is a virtue (and that too at that age). Harry's 10 years of living with the Dursleys and his current awareness of his position in the WW made him this prudent, I guess. > 5. Did you agree with Mr. Weasley that Harry should be told about Black's > motives? Joey: Given Harry's history of curiosity, I think so. > 6. Did you notice the strange fact that Scabbers was much too long-lived? What > did you think it meant? Joey: It is true that I found that pretty intriguing though the clue of Animagus in PS/SS (McGonagall turning into a cat) never struck me as "Scabbers" never got to do anything significant in PS/SS or CoS. Wonder how "Scabbers" reacted to Quirrell and the various Muggle-born Petrification in CoS - we were never told, were we? > 7. The guards at Azkaban are mentioned again along with the information that DD > doesn't like them. What did you think they were at this point? Joey: My imagination did not vary at this point. Thanks for the summary and interesting questions! :-) Cheers, ~Joey :-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 27 03:46:55 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 03:46:55 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189485 Nikkalmati: > 4. Harry, we are led to believe, has plenty of money and could afford anything > he wants. Why is he so frugal? Is his frugality meant to be a sign of virtue, > a good example to the readers? > Pippin: I think it's meant to be a good example, but I'm not sure frugality is the point. How many thirteen year olds have a vault full of money to spend as they wish? Nor is there any point where Harry is rewarded for not wasting his money. Rather I think it's meant to illustrate prudence, also demonstrated by Harry's willingness to do his homework, obey Fudge's strictures about not wandering into Muggle London, and his expectation that he would be punished for breaking the law. Unlike the young Marauders, Harry does have a strong sense of responsibility, though the temptations of Hogsmeade will prove to be too much for it. Pippin From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 05:44:58 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <656124.15480.qm@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189486 1. Percy seems to have no sense of humor. Did you feel sorry for Percy at any point or just accept that he deserves to be teased? luirhys: Although it makes for great comic relief when they make fun of Percy, I can't help but feel that this is one of the reasons why Percy is so school/work driven. He probably wanted to set himself apart from his other siblings. Good natured teasing is alright, I suppose. And no matter how much the twins like to make fun of Percy, it doesn't get to the stage that they would slip him some tongue-toffee. So we see that it's just some good natured sibling teasing. 2. Why does Crookshanks attack Scabbers on sight? Does he sense Scabbers is evil or just that he is not a rat? luirhys: That was what I first thought. Although as the story unfolded I couldn't give a reason why Crookshanks would seek out Scabbers. By the end of the book, I supposed he did sense that Scabbers was different from all the other rats in the shop, and thats why he chased him. 3. Is the conflict between Scabbers and Crookshanks meant to reflect the conflict between Ron and Hermione? luirhys: Never thought of it that way. 4. Harry, we are led to believe, has plenty of money and could afford anything he wants. Why is he so frugal? Is his frugality meant to be a sign of virtue, a good example to the readers? luirhys: We are led to believe that the Firebolt costs a lot of money, to the point that Harry thinks he might resort to asking money from the Dursleys if he bought one. I don't think he is frugal, as he is very generous in gift-giving (or even giving away money). 5. Did you agree with Mr. Weasley that Harry should be told about Black's motives? luirhys: Well, it would be better than if Harry would be unprepared. 6. Did you notice the strange fact that Scabbers was much too long-lived? What did you think it meant? luirhys: I thought that the fact that he was 'magical' contributed to his longetivity. 7. The guards at Azkaban are mentioned again along with the information that DD doesn't like them. What did you think they were at this point? luirhys: Still Elite wizards. ^ ^, Possibly that they enjoyed torturing or something. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 03:13:33 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 03:13:33 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "puduhepa98" wrote: > >> > > 3. Is the conflict between Scabbers and Crookshanks meant to reflect the > conflict between Ron and Hermione? Alla: I think we meant to think so at the time till we know who Scabbers really is, but then I think we really supposed to (not that we have to of course, I mean author wants us) to think that Crookshanks was sensing evil. > > 4. Harry, we are led to believe, has plenty of money and could afford anything > he wants. Why is he so frugal? Is his frugality meant to be a sign of virtue, > a good example to the readers? Alla: I think at the time of PoA his mindset still did not adjust to having money. I think he has Dursleys to "thank for" being so frugal as well, I think he may be worried subconsciously that since he never had anything, if he spends money too fast he will not have anything again. > > 5. Did you agree with Mr. Weasley that Harry should be told about Black's > motives? Alla: Absolutely! The arrogance of the adults around Harry (cough Dumbledore cough) who were keeping secrets from him all his life all supposedly to protect him while making decisions for him, even when to tell him that he has a timebomb inside of him simply infuriated me and this one is no exception. JMO of course. > > 6. Did you notice the strange fact that Scabbers was much too long-lived? What > did you think it meant? Alla: Honestly, I did not think it meant anything at the time. > > 7. The guards at Azkaban are mentioned again along with the information that DD > doesn't like them. What did you think they were at this point? > Alla: I thought they were something horrible, but had no idea what. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 28 00:33:07 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 00:33:07 -0000 Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189488 Carol: > > I've always assumed that Snape, who is unaffected by the Dementor that Fudge brings into Hogwarts, uses some form of Occlumency to protect himself. Fudge, too, is unharmed by the Dementor, which accepts his authority to the extent that it enters the school with him, ostensibly to protect him, before it pounces on the helpless (but hardly innocent Barty Jr.). How did Fudge keep that renegade Dementor from attacking anyone else? Or did Snape or McGonagall both hit it with their Patronuses (DD not being present)? Or did Snape, who in Percy's words, "knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts"--so much so that DD wants Snape and only Snape to treat his cursed arm after he puts on the ring--use some method that we don't know about to dismiss or destroy the Dementor? We never find out. All we know is that Barty Jr. was its only victim. Personally, I don't think that Fudge or McGonagall did anything except scream at each other and alert Dumbledore--which means that dealing with the Dementor was left to Snape. Pippin: I don't think the dementor was a renegade, exactly. Faced with an Azkaban escapee who was zonked on veritaserum and moreover insane with bliss over Voldemort's return, I think any dementor would have attacked. My impression is that when the dementor in question sensed Barty it swooped ahead of Fudge and Snape, entered the DADA office (whose door had earlier been blown away by Dumbledore) and pounced on the defenseless Barty before anyone could do anything. Even if McGongall can summon a patronus when faced with a dementor (and even Harry can't always manage it), she would have been watching Barty in case he recovered enough to make a break for it; she wouldn't have been on guard against an attacker from outside. I don't think there was any fight with the dementor. Fudge, no longer having any reason to fear Barty, and wishing to appear in control, would have dismissed it. And the Dementor, having finished its feast, would have no reason to linger, certainly not in the neighborhood of Albus Dumbledore. Pippin From wildirishrose at fiber.net Wed Jul 28 02:16:21 2010 From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:16:21 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189489 CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron 1. Percy seems to have no sense of humor. Did you feel sorry for Percy at any point or just accept that he deserves to be teased? Marianne: He never had a sense of humor, except the last part of the DH, he struck me as no-nonse, go by the rules sort of person. But he didn't deserve to constantly be teased. 2. Why does Crookshanks attack Scabbers on sight? Does he sense Scabbers is evil or just that he is not a rat? Marianne: I always thought he attacked Scabbers becuase he was a rat. Cats, rats, not the best of combinations. 4. Harry, we are led to believe, has plenty of money and could afford anything he wants. Why is he so frugal? Is his frugality meant to be a sign of virtue, a good example to the readers? Marianne: I think he's frugal because he has only so much money to use, and perhaps he was thinking in advance of the rest of his years at Hogwarts. 6. Did you notice the strange fact that Scabbers was much too long-lived? What did you think it meant? Marianne: Having had pet rats myself, mine only lived an average of 2 or so years. Three years was a ripe old age for a rat. I thought maybe the Weasley's kept him alive by magic. They wanted to keep him around for a while. Well if you take LV out of the picture in the beginning, for many years Scabbers was a good pet to the Weasley's, considering he was a coward. Or it never occurred to the Weasleys that he lived so long. Having a busy household like the Weasley's probably nobody thought about how long rats lived. > > Please add any questions you may have. > > Nikkalmati Questions: Would wizarding money accumulate interest. If it did, perhaps that's why Harry would have so much money after sitting there for so many years. Maybe I've asked this before. I don't think it was explained how Scabbers ended up in the Weasley family. Maybe they bought him. Maybe he just appeared at the house one day, and the Weasleys figured he had good manners so he stayed???? Marianne From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 04:13:51 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 04:13:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: <20100726105523.j9qg5re8e808g0cg@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189490 Eric Oppen wrote: [snip] It also may have been that he was left > more-or-less "in charge" by his mother when she was busy with baby Ron > and Ginny, and the twins resented being given orders by another kid. Joey: What you say is possible but I'm not sure if that is the case. The twins do not seem to spare Bill or Charlie either (they put beetles in soup and comment about Charlie's failure to pass the Apparition exam in the first try). It seems to me that they are pranksters in general, sparing none in the process. Percy bore most of the brunt of their pranks because, like you and others have rightly said, he never found them humourous (and hence, regarded them as irresponsible and immature) and thus they got quite a few opportunities to goad Percy. Also, Molly idolized Percy especially when she told off the twins for their behaviour - this might have irked the twins and they could have taken it out on Percy as they could not do that with their mother. Moreover, Percy was not popular amongst his other siblings too - there are instances where he was asked to "shut up" or "stop boring" by Bill and Ron too. This could have emboldened the twins further as they had a good audience to laugh. Cheers, ~Joey :-) From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 28 07:37:22 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 07:37:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wildirishrose01us" wrote: > 6. Did you notice the strange fact that Scabbers was much too long-lived? What did you think it meant? > > Marianne: > > Having had pet rats myself, mine only lived an average of 2 or so years. Three years was a ripe old age for a rat. I thought maybe the Weasley's kept him alive by magic. They wanted to keep him around for a while. Well if you take LV out of the picture in the beginning, for many years Scabbers was a good pet to the Weasley's, considering he was a coward. Or it never occurred to the Weasleys that he lived so long. Having a busy household like the Weasley's probably nobody thought about how long rats lived. > > > > Please add any questions you may have. > > > > Nikkalmati > > > Questions: Would wizarding money accumulate interest. If it did, perhaps that's why Harry would have so much money after sitting there for so many years. AM now - Didn't JKR say somewhere that James's family had been rich, so he didn't have to work? He didn't have time to spend much, so Harry would have inherited a large amount anyways. > > Maybe I've asked this before. I don't think it was explained how Scabbers ended up in the Weasley family. Maybe they bought him. Maybe he just appeared at the house one day, and the Weasleys figured he had good manners so he stayed???? > > Marianne > AM now - I wondered, too - Snape makes a big deal to Bellatrix of his having stayed at Hogwarts for the years Voldemort was gone, and thus having useful information for Voldie, and as we know, Snape _was_ forgiven. I'm sort of surprised Peter didn't play the information card - he must have heard a great deal from Arthur and Molly. Ah, well, I guess his personality just makes everyone want to kick him. From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 28 08:09:16 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 08:09:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189492 > > 1. Percy seems to have no sense of humor. Did you feel sorry for Percy at any > point or just accept that he deserves to be teased? AM - As in RL, Percy's sort of attitude just invites teasing. I suppose the idea was to show Percy as being on the outer fringe of the family all along; otherwise his defection to the Ministry would have been strange and unbelievable. But the Wizarding world has a strong element of slapstick humour, a lot of it pretty dangerous to our eyes. > > 2. Why does Crookshanks attack Scabbers on sight? Does he sense Scabbers is > evil or just that he is not a rat? AM - I thought it was the cat-rat animosity, and didn't think anything of it. It wasn't until much later in the book that I realised Crookshanks wasn't just a cat. > > 3. Is the conflict between Scabbers and Crookshanks meant to reflect the > conflict between Ron and Hermione? AM - Never thought of it like that. I guess, as we're talking strong opposites, it works well. > > 4. Harry, we are led to believe, has plenty of money and could afford anything > he wants. Why is he so frugal? Is his frugality meant to be a sign of virtue, > a good example to the readers? AM - He's terrified of being dependent on the Dursleys. He has no way of knowing in real terms what his money is worth - he's not been given any idea what things cost day-to-day, as his only shopping is Diagon Alley once a year, and one mention of a Muggle shopping trip with Petunia. I wonder about that - no mention of Dudley with them. So he has no idea how much renting a flat, buying the weekly food, anything costs. I'm not surprised at all that he's careful. > > 5. Did you agree with Mr. Weasley that Harry should be told about Black's > motives? AM - YES. > > 6. Did you notice the strange fact that Scabbers was much too long-lived? What > did you think it meant? AM - I'd got no idea of the longevity of rats. If the twins were caught trying to get Ron to make an Unbreakable Vow (what did they want him to do?), they could have slipped Percy's rat, as Scabbers was then, anything - a Longevity potion, in the hopes it might turn him purple? > > 7. The guards at Azkaban are mentioned again along with the information that DD > doesn't like them. What did you think they were at this point? AM - Again, I thought something pretty horrible - I think at this point, I was imagining Auschwitz. I _did_ think it was odd that Fudge had visited Azkaban the night Black escaped. But trying to think back, this was the first HP book I read, and I hadn't cottoned on to how much information JKR was slipping into the cracks. > > Please add any questions you may have. > > Nikkalmati Thanks for the questions; I'm getting some of that first time reading memory back! AM From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 16:01:39 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 16:01:39 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189493 > Mike writes: "So, on to Riddle and his murdering his kin. Simple really, there were wizards in > that vicinity, and one who had specifically attacked the elder Tom Riddle in the > past - Morfin, Tom's uncle. Since Tom framed his uncle, Morfin becomes the > perfectly logical culprit to the Ministry" > > dzturtleshell responds: Wow. Sorry. I don't know how I forgot about Morfin here! I need to stop staying up so late, it's messing with my head. Carol responds: Well, yes, Morfin was there and he had a record of attacking Muggles, but we don't know of any alarm that's set off in the Ministry by an Unforgivable Curse. The Ministry would have been alerted by the Trace, meaning that an *underage* wizard had cast a spell there (or a spell had been cast in the underage wizard's presence). Since there were no underage wizards in Little Hangleton, the Ministry should have pursued the matter further, confession or no confession. The only thing I can think of to explain the situation (other than inconsistency on JKR's part, changing the rules to suit the convenience of her plot) is that it wasn't the Trace that alerted the Ministry (possibly it hadn't been instituted yet). Maybe the Ministry had Muggle or Squib connections who read Muggle newspapers and learned about a suspicious murder that way (even though DD thinks he's the only wizard who reads Muggle papers). Three people dead with no trace of injury (and surprised expressions) would suggest Avada Kedavra. At any rate, I think that JKR paid more attention to Riddle's methods than she did to the Ministry's actions. Any wizard who read the Muggle reports would not only know that Frank Bryce was innocent, they'd pay attention to his reports of a dark-haired teenage boy. And if DD already suspected a connection with Tom Riddle and the Riddle murders, why didn't he speak up? Carol, who hasn't reread GoF recently and may be missing something From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jul 31 18:00:20 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 31 Jul 2010 18:00:20 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/1/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1280599220.8.93426.m8@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189494 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 1, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) 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