From no.limberger at gmail.com  Tue Jun  1 14:34:35 2010
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 07:34:35 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets 
	Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <htu409+lg7e@eGroups.com>
References: <ht28f4+ja2h@eGroups.com>
	<htu409+lg7e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilI8b7bgOqJngpBETzVOyS7TkvAxPEO2fHpesnA@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189258

<Question snip>
> 1. How is the magical diary in CoS like a modern Muggle device that young
> (and not so young) use? Do you think this was intended as a warning?

>No.Limberger wrote:
>I had not previously viewed the magical diary as being similar to any
>electronic device that we have today. When this book was written, there
>were no social networking sites on the Internet and its usage wasn't as
>widespread as it is today.  So, I don't believe that JKR created it to be
>a warning to young people regarding electronic devices or the Internet.

>Potioncat wrote:
>As I read the account in CoS--the whole process of communicating with the
diary
>seemed exactly like IM-img or E-mail. No Limburger has suggested that this
book
>was written before that sort of computer activity was common. I don't know.
But
>does anyone think that a young reader now might see a simalarity between
the two?

No.Limberger responds:
CoS was released in 1998 in the UK, then in 1999 in the US. To get a
perspective on
overall Internet usage, Amazon.com was founded in 1994, eBay in 1995, Yahoo
in 1995,
MySpace in 2003, Facebook in 2004 and Twitter in 2006. Some of the early ISP
providers, such as AOL, CompuServe & Prodigy, were around in the early
1990's,
but there certainly weren't as many people using the Internet then than as
today and
the vast majority of users then were using slow dial-up connections.

When I initially responded to the question, it was with regard to JKR, and
my
opinion remains unchanged: I don't believe that she had any intent to warn
any of her young readers about Internet usage through Tom Riddle's diary in
CoS. Many children (mostly girls) liked to write in diaries; often filling
them
with some of their innermost thoughts & secrets and not wanting anyone
else to read them. Diaries were an outlet. It may be that in today's
Internet-connected world that fewer write in diaries or personal journals,
but if someone genuinely wants to keep something secret, they're likely not
going to write it in an email, blog, Twitter or a social-networking site. If
they
do, then they will quickly realize their mistake.

When Ginny was writing in the diary in CoS, the readers don't know how
long & how much she actually wrote before Tom Riddle made his presence
known in the diary. When Harry had it he had no idea who had been using
it or if anyone had been using it because all of the pages were blank. I see
no similarity between this and writing in an email, instant message, blog
or social networking site. When someone writes in a diary, the intent is
to keep the contents secret; when writing online, that is not the case:
there
is an intended audience. That's not to say that someone may make a
connection between the two, but the purpose of writing in a diary/personal
journal as compared with writing on the Internet are essentially opposite
in my opinion.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Jun  2 02:17:35 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 02:17:35 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <htu409+lg7e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hu4evv+bm5o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189259


> 
> Potioncat:
> It's been a common thread at this site about the dangers of keeping information secret. Lots of characters keep things too close. I think this is the one time we see the danger of spilling secrets.  Certainly there is a danger in both extremes.

Pippin:
I wouldn't say it was the one time.  James and Lily misplaced confidence in Peter, and Sirius allowed Kreacher to discover his secrets because he thought he could prevent the Elf from sharing them.

However, this warning about the dangers of opening one's heart comes from Tom Riddle, whose refusal to trust arguably leads to his fall. It also contrasts with Dumbledore's advice in GoF, "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."

I think Ginny's mistake was not in opening her heart, but in assuming that kindness and sympathy were proof of Tom's trustworthiness. Canon suggests that a better test would have been  a willingness to brave danger for her sake.

> > 
> > 6. Several times Riddle's expression is described as "hungry." Young
> > Severus's expression was described the same way in DH. What do you make of this?
> 
> Potioncat:
> Much was made of young Severus's hungry looks. Many of us saw this a needy while others gave it a more sinister slant. Riddle is most certainly hungry for power and dark deeds.
> >

Pippin:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Sorting Hat's song in GoF, "And power-hungry Slytherin/ Loved those of great ambition."
Hunger, IOW, is part of what the Hat looks for in a Slytherin. 

Canon never says anything directly about *why* the Slytherins crave power, but I have a theory about it. One thing many Slytherins seems to share is an attitude of resignation. It's amazing how some of their more memorable speeches  reflect this. 

Bella: Throw us into Azkaban; we will wait!
Draco: I've got no choice.
Regulus: I know I will be dead long before you read this
Snape: I wish *I* were dead 

Slytherin himself resigned literally by leaving Hogwarts.  Voldemort is  certain that he can do nothing unless one of his servants returns to him. Lucius, and then Narcissa, resign their wands. 

A Slytherin, IOW, is someone who wants to make a difference, but feels he lacks the power to do so. And that sheds some light on the idea that all you have to do to avoid being placed in Slytherin is to ask the Hat to put you somewhere else. A person who believes he can make a difference is not resigned.

Pippin







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  2 03:11:24 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 03:11:24 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
Message-ID: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189260

Zara, as always many thanks for your help :)



This message is a Special Notice for all members of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space):
HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------
CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Chapter 18: Dobby's reward


Harry and Ron and Ginny appear in Dumbledore's office, where everybody including her parents is extremely happy to see them alive and well. Upon Dumbledore's request Harry tells them how they saved Ginny, Ginny explains what she did and Dumbledore tells her that there will be no punishment, that stronger wizards than her had been hoodwinked by Voldemort. Dumbledore sends Ginny to Madame Pomfrey and everybody else leaves as well. Ginny's parents go with her and Ron takes Lockhart to  the infirmary. Harry stays and has a chat with Dumbledore where he expresses worries that he is too much like Tom Riddle because he speaks Parseltongue. Dumbledore thinks that Voldemort put something of himself in Harry that night.

 Dumbledore agrees that Harry has many qualities that Salazar Slytherin looked for in his students, however he also shows Harry the words Godric Gryffindor that appear on the sword and tells Harry that only a  true Gryffindor could have pulled it out of the hat.

Lucius appears with Dobby to "congratulate" Dumbledore on being back. Dumbledore explains to him that governors really wanted him back after they learned that Arthur's daughter was attacked and they even mentioned that they were blackmailed. Lucius is not very happy. Harry tells Lucius that he gave Ginny the diary and has an idea how to free Dobby. He puts  the diary in the sock, gives the diary to Lucius. Annoyed, Lucius after promising Harry that he will meet the same sticky end as his parents gives the diary to Dobby to hold. Alas. Dobby is FREE.




1. Harry is asking Dumbledore whether Voldemort put a bit of himself in Harry. After DH do you see it as foreshadowing of Horcrux ? Why or why not?

2. I know that Hagrid tells Harry that Lockhart was the only applicant for the job, but still why do you think Dumbledore hired him? Does it mean that Snape applying every year was after all a lie? If it was a lie, why Dumbledore did not teach DADA himself, instead of hiring incompetent imbecile whom I consider Gilderoy to be?


3. Among many other things I hold Albus Dumbledore responsible for is him not shouting to Wizarding World about Tom Riddle being Lord Voldemort, while IMO telling useless nonsense to Harry about calling him one imaginary name instead of another imaginary name. But in this chapter Dumbledore easily shares such information and while he does it within limited circle of people, he does not ask them to keep it a secret or anything like that. Should I cross off this offense (my opinion of course) off the list and maybe realize that he may have shared such information more than once and people were not interested in sharing such information with each other?


4 Ginny insists her brothers would not tease Percy about Penelope, is there a chance that Fred and George will keep their promise?
5. Dumbledore tells Harry " It is our choices, Harry, that show what
we truly are, far more than our abilities ". Which choice of Harry's is Albus talking about here? Do you agree this is a difference from Tom Riddle?


6. What did you think happened to big and scary Basilisk before DH?

7. Harry is asking Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life again." Did you expect a repeat performance from Dobby and did it live up to your expectations if any?
In light of DH do you believe that JKR planned Dobby's character arc already when she wrote CoS? Why or why not?

8. Please feel free to add your own questions.


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33
Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 1 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like
to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a
note
to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). (PLEASE, please, pretty please?)





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  2 03:15:06 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 03:15:06 -0000
Subject: In case anybody did not see this announcement, reposting it separately :)
Message-ID: <hu4ibq+mc1i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189261

If you
would like
to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a
note
to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). (PLEASE,
please, pretty please?)


Alika elf.




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  2 07:37:04 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 07:37:04 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hu51n0+vu2k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189262

> 1. Harry is asking Dumbledore whether Voldemort put a bit of himself in Harry. After DH do you see it as foreshadowing of Horcrux ? Why or why not?

Joey:

Yes. Not only in DH; even in GoF or OoTP, only this information enabled me to understand [to a certain extent] why Harry was having specific dreams / visions.

> 
> 2. I know that Hagrid tells Harry that Lockhart was the only applicant for the job, but still why do you think Dumbledore hired him? Does it mean that Snape applying every year was after all a lie? If it was a lie, why Dumbledore did not teach DADA himself, instead of hiring incompetent imbecile whom I consider Gilderoy to be?

Joey:

I presume DD's schedule and chores as a headmaster forced him to delegate the job to a teacher while he retained his accountability (for we learn that he had discussions with Fake!Moody about the curriculum). I think his fear of Snape going back to his old ways outweighed his disappointment in Lockhart due to which he chose Lockhart.

> 3. Among many other things I hold Albus Dumbledore responsible for is him not shouting to Wizarding World about Tom Riddle being Lord Voldemort, while IMO telling useless nonsense to Harry about calling him one imaginary name instead of another imaginary name. But in this chapter Dumbledore easily shares such information and while he does it within limited circle of people, he does not ask them to keep it a secret or anything like that. Should I cross off this offense (my opinion of course) off the list and maybe realize that he may have shared such information more than once and people were not interested in sharing such information with each other?

Joey:

I think DD did not want Voldemort to know that DD still remembers Voldemort's past and that he cares to share it with people. I think he wanted it to be a secret that he was doing some background work regarding Voldemort's horcruxes (the results of which we learn in HBP). As for sharing it with Harry, I think whatever he explained in OoTP is the answer.

> 4 Ginny insists her brothers would not tease Percy about Penelope, is there a chance that Fred and George will keep their promise?

Joey:

No. :-)

> 5. Dumbledore tells Harry " It is our choices, Harry, that show what
> we truly are, far more than our abilities ". Which choice of Harry's is Albus talking about here? Do you agree this is a difference from Tom Riddle?

Joey:

The choice to say no to Dark Arts despite the similar drive to prove his worth to himself and the world.

> 6. What did you think happened to big and scary Basilisk before DH?

Joey:

Didn't even care to think about it as it was thankfully dead. I only wondered how many more such Basilisks were lurking around.

> 7. Harry is asking Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life again." Did you expect a repeat performance from Dobby and did it live up to your expectations if any?

Joey:

I assumed that Dobby would learn his lesson.

> In light of DH do you believe that JKR planned Dobby's character arc already when she wrote CoS? Why or why not?

Joey:

I think she did plan it at the time of CoS. The entry of Dobby into Hogwarts during GoF, I think, is a significant move towards the DH plot (where Aberforth sends Dobby to Malfoy Manor).

Cheers,
~Joey, thanking Alla for the nice summary and questions :-)






From carylcb at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  2 13:39:43 2010
From: carylcb at hotmail.com (Caryl Brown)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 09:39:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In case anybody did not see this announcement,
 reposting it separately :)
In-Reply-To: <hu4ibq+mc1i@eGroups.com>
References: <hu4ibq+mc1i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <COL116-W349820D5ACE22ED2F8AC85ABD00@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 189263


I would be willing to do questions for PoA, Chapter 10: The Marauders Map, if you don't have anyone yet.
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From no.limberger at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 17:18:28 2010
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 10:18:28 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 
	18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
References: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil5weSV66YhJ8Pvo31JSH6VYR9E3XjL1-TL2yHm@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189264

<Question snips>
>1. Harry is asking Dumbledore whether Voldemort put a bit of himself in
>Harry. After DH do you see it as foreshadowing of Horcrux ? Why or
>why not?

No.Limberger responds:
After reading HBP, I didn't want to believe that Harry contained a horcrux,
which turned out to be the case. Each of the books leading up to DH
were moving in that direction, beginning with SS/PS in which Harry started
to experience pain in his scar anytime that LV was near. Then, he learns
that he is connected to LV in CoS when Harry learns that LV put a part
of himself into Harry the night LV killed Harry's parents and tried to kill
Harry. At the time, I didn't make the same connection with the diary as
with Harry, but that was clearly the case even though LV putting a part of
himself into the diary was deliberate, but putting a part himself into Harry
was unintended. Then, Harry's visions in GoF and OotP further showed
the connection that was increasing in intensity.

>2. I know that Hagrid tells Harry that Lockhart was the only applicant for
>the job, but still why do you think Dumbledore hired him? Does it mean
>that Snape applying every year was after all a lie? If it was a lie, why
>Dumbledore did not teach DADA himself, instead of hiring incompetent
>imbecile whom I consider Gilderoy to be?

No.Limberger responds:
I would list two reasons. First, the only other potions teacher mentioned
is Slughorn, who DD had to work very hard to convince to return to Hogwarts
in HBP. If DD made Snape the DADA teacher, he'd potentially have no
replacement for Snape. Second, if DD was aware of the curse placed on
the DADA teacher's job, he wouldn't want to place Snape into that position
since having Snape around is very important to the defense against LV.
After all, every teacher who was placed into the DADA teacher's job left
Hogwarts at the end of the same school term.

>3. Among many other things I hold Albus Dumbledore responsible for
>is him not shouting to Wizarding World about Tom Riddle being Lord
>Voldemort, while IMO telling useless nonsense to Harry about calling
>him one imaginary name instead of another imaginary name. But in this
>chapter Dumbledore easily shares such information and while he does
>it within limited circle of people, he does not ask them to keep it a
secret
>or anything like that. Should I cross off this offense (my opinion of
course)
>off the list and maybe realize that he may have shared such information
>more than once and people were not interested in sharing such information
>with each other?

No.Limberger responds:
Consider this. Wizards & witches are required to keep their world
a secret from the muggle world. This means that from the onset of their
lives, children raised in wizarding homes are taught to be secretive. As
adults, they seem to carry this further by not necessarily sharing
information
with one another. Then, there's the fear that so many lived with when LV
was active and had the power to read minds. Since whoever who was at
school with Riddle may have known he had become LV, it wasn't only
DD who didn't really discuss this with other or tell others. Further, DD,
IMHO, was working to defeat LV and felt the need to keep as much
information that he had about LV a secret as much as possible. DD
shared information as he felt that he needed to. He didn't want to cause
Harry any more pain. DD likely knew that Harry was a horcrux; sharing
that with Harry would have only caused Harry that much more pain.

>4 Ginny insists her brothers would not tease Percy about Penelope,
>is there a chance that Fred and George will keep their promise?

No.Limberger responds:
No.

>5. Dumbledore tells Harry " It is our choices, Harry, that show what
>we truly are, far more than our abilities ". Which choice of Harry's is
>Albus talking about here? Do you agree this is a difference from Tom
Riddle?

No.Limberger responds:
Harry made a choice to not be placed in Slytherin. And, even though he
carried part of LV with him, Harry effectively chose not to be
the "heir of Slytherin". LV, on the other hand, did choose to be the
heir and pursue a life of evil & dark magic. The diary, which only
contained a part of LV, like the original, clearly wanted to be the heir.
Harry chose to be himself.

>6. What did you think happened to big and scary Basilisk before DH?

No.Limberger responds:
Never gave it a thought really, except that it was locked away for a very
very long time in the chamber.

>7. Harry is asking Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life
again."
>Did you expect a repeat performance from Dobby and did it live up to your
>expectations if any?

No.Limberger responds:
Dobby believed he was doing what was right, even though it wasn't. I
think he learned that lesson.

>In light of DH do you believe that JKR planned Dobby's character arc
>already when she wrote CoS? Why or why not?

No.Limberger responds:
Yes, I think JKR had already planned that and I expected Dobby
to return at some point in the future. The reason I believe JKR planned
this is because she already knew the outcome of the stories before
she ever started to write them, which suggests that she already
had plans for the various characters also.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Jun  3 00:46:01 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 20:46:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter
 	18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil5weSV66YhJ8Pvo31JSH6VYR9E3XjL1-TL2yHm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com> <AANLkTil5weSV66YhJ8Pvo31JSH6VYR9E3XjL1-TL2yHm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C06FB49.20908@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189265

On 6/2/2010 1:18 PM, No Limberger wrote:
> After reading HBP, I didn't want to believe that Harry contained a horcrux,
> which turned out to be the case. Each of the books leading up to DH
> were moving in that direction, beginning with SS/PS in which Harry started
> to experience pain in his scar anytime that LV was near. Then, he learns
> that he is connected to LV in CoS when Harry learns that LV put a part
> of himself into Harry the night LV killed Harry's parents and tried to kill
> Harry.

Bart:
     I was very much against the idea of Harry being a horcrux, too, 
although I believed he was something akin to one. Still am. It just 
appeared that the process of creating a horcrux was too complex for one 
to be created by accident. My feeling was that a piece of Morty's soul 
did move into Harry, but remained separate; this was part of the reason 
why the soul piece could be removed from Harry without his own destruction.

     Bart




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  3 03:49:00 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 03:49:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil5weSV66YhJ8Pvo31JSH6VYR9E3XjL1-TL2yHm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hu78nc+6ahd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189266

> >In light of DH do you believe that JKR planned Dobby's character arc
> >already when she wrote CoS? Why or why not?
> 
> No.Limberger responds:
> Yes, I think JKR had already planned that and I expected Dobby
> to return at some point in the future. The reason I believe JKR planned
> this is because she already knew the outcome of the stories before
> she ever started to write them, which suggests that she already
> had plans for the various characters also.
> 

Joey:

I too feel that way for the most part except for the character of Rita Skeeter. I was quite surprised that not even a single mention of her name was made in the first 3 books especially PoA where Fudge was shown to be worrying about Daily Prophet's reports regarding MoM's ability to capture Black.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From greatraven at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  3 08:09:57 2010
From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 08:09:57 -0000
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <4BF47AAB.1010802@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hu7o0l+crv0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189267



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> On 5/19/2010 1:46 PM, Nicole A wrote:
> > How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the
> > wizarding world?
> >    
> 
> Bart:
>      I have mentioned before my belief that teenagers in the WW don't 
> have sex. In fact, considering the population problems in the WW 
> (notably Hogwarts being apparently designed for far more students than 
> it has), one must conclude that there isn't a lot of sex in the WW, period.
> 
>      In some RW occult systems, it is thought that the "energy channels" 
> used for magic are the same as those used for sex, so that sex takes 
> away from one's magic ability and vice versa; consider the chastity 
> requirement of the Roman Catholic priesthood.
> 
>      Bart
> 
> 
>      Bart
>


Sue here: (Huge grin)

Doesn't anyone remember that scene in GOF where Snape is walking in the garden on the night of the Yule Ball and uses his wand to scare the hell out of a couple of students? I bet they were doing more than kissing, from the hints given in that scene!




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun  3 14:16:22 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 14:16:22 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hu8dfm+sm6d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189268

 
> 1. Harry is asking Dumbledore whether Voldemort put a bit of himself in Harry. After DH do you see it as foreshadowing of Horcrux ? Why or why not?

Pippin:
I don't see how it can't be foreshadowing. Clearly JKR intended Harry's sacrifice in DH from the outset and had to invent a compelling reason for her hero to do this thing. 

> 
> 2. I know that Hagrid tells Harry that Lockhart was the only applicant for the job, but still why do you think Dumbledore hired him? Does it mean that Snape applying every year was after all a lie? If it was a lie, why Dumbledore did not teach DADA himself, instead of hiring incompetent imbecile whom I consider Gilderoy to be?

Pippin:
By the time Lockhart is hired, the DADA curse has been active for something like twenty years. It seems to work by forcing the incumbent to reveal something that would make him unworthy of the position. Since Dumbledore knows that both he and Snape have things in their pasts that would disqualify them, it would be foolish for either of them to take it.

Dumbledore seems to have hired Lockhart actually hoping that the curse would expose him for what he was. But certainly  any competent DADA teacher would realize the position was cursed, and avoid it, so anyone who took the position would either be incompetent or have some motive that made it worth the penalty.

I do think Snape applied every year, but I think that Hagrid was aware that there were  arrangements between Dumbledore and Snape, and he didn't take Snape's desire to be DADA professor seriously. After all if Snape wanted to teach DADA so badly, he'd go somewhere else and do it. 

> 
> 3. Among many other things I hold Albus Dumbledore responsible for is him not shouting to Wizarding World about Tom Riddle being Lord Voldemort, while IMO telling useless nonsense to Harry about calling him one imaginary name instead of another imaginary name. But in this chapter Dumbledore easily shares such information and while he does it within limited circle of people, he does not ask them to keep it a secret or anything like that. Should I cross off this offense (my opinion of course) off the list and maybe realize that he may have shared such information more than once and people were not interested in sharing such information with each other?

Pippin:
Dumbledore's first battle was to convince the WW that Voldemort was much more dangerous than the  dark wizards  they were used to. To most of them, Grindelwald was a crazy foreigner -- I don't think it occurred to them that  someone like him would arise on British soil. Their idea of a dark wizard was someone  like the Malfoys or the senior Blacks: exclusionary and elitist, capable of the occasional anti-Muggle riot, but hardly bent on world domination and willing to crush anyone in their path, faithful allies not excepted.

By the time our story opens, that battle has been won, and Dumbledore has moved on. But consider whether knowing that Voldemort was Tom Riddle would have helped to convince someone like Dippet that he was a menace.  Probably not, IMO. 

All Voldemort's initial followers knew him as Riddle. He didn't pick the name to deceive them, he picked it because he didn't want to be reminded of his Muggle father. When he first returned, Riddle was the name that people had heard and Voldemort was the secret one -- IMO it would be a much bigger propaganda point for Dumbledore to show that he knew the Voldemort name and wasn't afraid to use it than it would have been to publicly insist on using the name Tom Riddle. 


> 4 Ginny insists her brothers would not tease Percy about Penelope, is there a chance that Fred and George will keep their promise?

Pippin:
Hmmm. Off-hand, I'd say no. But OTOH, it's Ron, not the twins, whom Percy accuses of dripping tea on Penelope's picture in PoA. So maybe they did keep their promise. I think they got to be a little afraid of Ginny--she wouldn't be above hinting that Voldemort taught her a few tricks <veg>


> 5. Dumbledore tells Harry " It is our choices, Harry, that show what
> we truly are, far more than our abilities ". Which choice of Harry's is Albus talking about here? Do you agree this is a difference from Tom Riddle?

Pippin:
I think Albus is talking about Harry's choice to be in Gryffindor rather than  Slytherin, and in a larger sense, his desire to use his powers unselfishly. Tom does not seem to have ever wished to be more generous, or even that he could be more generous. 
> 
> 
> 6. What did you think happened to big and scary Basilisk before DH?

Pippin:
It says it was so hungry, for so long. It seems to have eaten rats and mice, but perhaps there was some magical arrangement for feeding it, as there must have been for other guardians like Fluffy and the troll who was guarding the Stone. I would think it had a problem similar to King Midas's though. Unless it can eat petrified prey, it would have to sneak up on its dinner without allowing itself to be seen. 

> 
> 7. Harry is asking Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life again." Did you expect a repeat performance from Dobby and did it live up to your expectations if any?
> In light of DH do you believe that JKR planned Dobby's character arc already when she wrote CoS? Why or why not?
> 

Pippin:
Yes, I think JKR wrote those lines knowing that Dobby would save Harry's life and it would cost his own to do it. And I think if Harry had known that, he would still have wanted Dobby to make that promise and honor it. 

Thanks Alla, for the questions and summary, excellent as always.

Pippin






From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  3 08:20:02 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 01:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <hu7o0l+crv0@eGroups.com>
References: <hu7o0l+crv0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <507519.26779.qm@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189269




Sue here: (Huge grin)

Doesn't anyone remember that scene in GOF where Snape is walking in the garden on the night of the Yule Ball and uses his wand to scare the hell out of a couple of students? I bet they were doing more than kissing, from the hints given in that scene!

luirhys: Off Topic: speaking of Snape, Makes you wonder if he's ever been kissed. He might've been a "40 year old virgin". Explains a lot about his mood swings though.^ ^,




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  3 06:14:59 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 23:14:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hu78nc+6ahd@eGroups.com>
References: <hu78nc+6ahd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <709888.44107.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189270







Joey:

I too feel that way for the most part except for the character of Rita Skeeter. I was quite surprised that not even a single mention of her name was made in the first 3 books especially PoA where Fudge was shown to be worrying about Daily Prophet's reports regarding MoM's ability to capture Black.



luirhys:
 Actually, if you read some of her interviews, she said that she initially wanted Skeeter to be in the first book- in the Leaky Cauldron, where Hagrid takes Harry after first learning that he was a wizard. She decided to move her appearance to the 4th book, because this is when "Harry really comes to term with his fame." 


Rita was intended to be in Philosopher's Stone, as Rowling 
revealed in an interview: "you know when Harry walks into the Leaky 
Cauldron for the first time and everyone says, "Mr. Potter you're 
back!", I wanted to put a journalist in there. She wasn't called Rita 
then but she was a woman. And then I thought, as I looked at the plot 
overall, I thought, that's not really where she fits best, she fits best in Four when Harry's supposed to come to terms with his fame."
^ Transcript of interview with J.K. 
Rowling. BBC Newsround. 2000. Accessed 25 October 2007.
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  5 16:48:19 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 16:48:19 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hudv4j+fvjj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189271

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
> Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
> 
<snip summary>
> 
> 1. Harry is asking Dumbledore whether Voldemort put a bit of himself in Harry. After DH do you see it as foreshadowing of Horcrux? Why or why not?

Carol:
It's definitely foreshadowing. Remember the discussions on this list after HBP about whether Harry's scar contained a soul bit and was therefore an accidental Horcrux? (I distinctly remember being in the wrong on that point, but I hate Horcruxes!) But, of course, "a bit of himself in Harry" also served for the time being as a much-needed (and for the time being sufficient) explanation for Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue and the the link between him and Voldemort, which becomes stronger in GoF and OoP. It also fits with "the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal," (accidentally) giving him some of his own powers--the very powers, aside from Love, that make him "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." And, of course, he put a bit of himself (which we thought at the time was only a memory) in the diary, too, and, of course, the diary foreshadows the Horcrux motif because it *is* one.
> 
> 2. I know that Hagrid tells Harry that Lockhart was the only applicant for the job, but still why do you think Dumbledore hired him? Does it mean that Snape applying every year was after all a lie? If it was a lie, why Dumbledore did not teach DADA himself, instead of hiring incompetent imbecile whom I consider Gilderoy to be?

Carol:
Good question and one for which I don't have a definite answer. Of course, Lockhart is necessary to the plot of CoS and he, along with Quirrell from SS/PS, establishes the motif of a new DADA teacher each year, causing us to wonder whether the rumor that the position is jinxed is true. But I can't make up my mind whether Snape, who loves Potions and is an excellent potion maker, really would prefer teaching DADA. (Could it be that the students would be less surly and resentful--though not necessarily more competent--in a class that they actually wanted to take? Maybe it upsets him to see kids turning the Potions lab into a disaster area instead of being excited by the "art and science of potion making.") It's possible, however, that he did apply each year to teach DADA because it also upset him to see incompetents teaching it and he knew that he could do a better job and/or he thought that, with LV coming back at any time, it was a more important position than Potions. How someone like Snape, who is one of the few Wizards who can think logically, would fail to see that the position was jinxed, I don't know. Maybe he thought that the unending series of DADA teachers was simply caused by their unfitness for the job (which, in fact, was often the case). Or maybe he believed that he could easily undo a mere jinx if the need arose. If he applied yearly, he must not have thought that he would be fired or worse. DD, of course, knew better, and allowed not only Lockhart but Umbridge to teach DADA rather than prematurely giving the position to Snape. Only when he knew that he, himself, was dying and Voldemort's takeover of Hogwarts was imminent did he give the position to Snape, who was not only highly qualified to teach it but would, of necessity, be returning to the DEs after doing DD the terrible favor of killing him. In short, in HBP, it was finally time to give the job to Snape. Doing so earlier would lose DD a valuable assistant--and who knows what it would have done to Snape?
> 
> 3. Among many other things I hold Albus Dumbledore responsible for is him not shouting to Wizarding World about Tom Riddle being Lord Voldemort, while IMO telling useless nonsense to Harry about calling him one imaginary name instead of another imaginary name. But in this chapter Dumbledore easily shares such information and while he does it within limited circle of people, he does not ask them to keep it a secret or anything like that. Should I cross off this offense (my opinion of course) off the list and maybe realize that he may have shared such information more than once and people were not interested in sharing such information with each other?

Carol:
I'm quite sure that you should cross this item off your list. Certainly, DD had told *some* people (including, perhaps, Cornelius Fudge) that Tom Riddle was Voldemort. I doubt that most people cared. The early DEs followed him knowing quite well who he was, and others who knew him might not have believed that he went bad because he was so handsome and charming. The fact that he was a Half-Blood really didn't matter: As we see with little Draco in SS/PS, there are two kinds of Wizards, those with Wizarding blood in at least one parent and "the other kind"--Muggle-borns. Half-Bloods can become Slytherins; Muggle-borns can't. And once Voldemort became powerful, especially after he seemed invincible and even immortal, his Muggle blood didn't matter at all--as we see in GoF when he scoffs at his Muggle father and uses his blood to restore himself to a new body, speaking openly to the DEs of that feat.

Really, what good would it do to announce to the WW that Voldemort was the same handsome young Half-Blood who once worked for Borgin and Burke's? How would that help to defeat him, especially when the DEs he recruited were mostly Half-Bloods themselves (Pure-Bloods being a rare commodity) and the goal was to rule over (or exterminate) the Muggle-borns? The Pure-Bloods like Lucius Malfoy could still revel in their own superior blood, but they were no match in terms of power for Voldemort. And Bellatrix was such a fanatic that she refused to believe that her beloved Voldemort was a Half-Blood.
> 
> 4 Ginny insists her brothers would not tease Percy about Penelope, is there a chance that Fred and George will keep their promise?

Carol:
None whatever.

> 5. Dumbledore tells Harry " It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities ". Which choice of Harry's is Albus talking about here? Do you agree this is a difference from Tom Riddle?

Carol:
Apparently, the choice not to go into Slytherin, which, of course, is clearly different from Tom Riddle (and, for that matter, Severus Snape). But I also think that he's speaking in general terms, knowing that Tom Riddle chose, for example, to kill his own father and grandparents and make at least two Horcruxes. Harry, in contrast, has twice chosen to risk his life to fight evil and/or rescue an "innocent" victim from evil.
> 
> 
> 6. What did you think happened to big and scary Basilisk before DH?
> 
> 7. Harry is asking Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life again." Did you expect a repeat performance from Dobby and did it live up to your expectations if any?
> In light of DH do you believe that JKR planned Dobby's character arc already when she wrote CoS? Why or why not?
> 
> 8. Please feel free to add your own questions.
> 
> 
> NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
> Chapter Discussions" at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33
> Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 1 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like
> to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a
> note
> to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). (PLEASE, please, pretty please?)
>





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  5 16:54:38 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 16:54:38 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hudvge+31p7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189272

Carol:
Oops! I hit Send prematurely.

> 6. What did you think happened to big and scary Basilisk before DH?

Carol:
I never gave the Basilisk a second thought. It was dead.
> 
> 7. Harry is asking Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life again." Did you expect a repeat performance from Dobby and did it live up to your expectations if any? In light of DH do you believe that JKR planned Dobby's character arc already when she wrote CoS? Why or why not?

Carol:
I didn't like Dobby and didn't think about his promise--which he breaks as early as GoF with the stolen Gillyweed. Since Dobby was "free," it wasn't a binding promise, I suppose. If the choice was between breaking his word and saving Harry's life, obviously, he'll choose the latter. If he'd been Kreacher under the same order, he'd have had to choose to obey.

Carol, with apologies for the previous unfinished post




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jun  5 17:07:27 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 17:07:27 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hue08f+dpf5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189273

Alla wrote:
1.Harry is asking Dumbledore whether Voldemort put a bit of himself in Harry. After DH do you see it as foreshadowing of Horcrux ? Why or why not?
Potioncat:
Yes. JKR drot hints all throughout the series. We get a clue at our very first meeting with DD and Harry in SS/PS; DD declines to treat the scar and makes a joke about scars being useful. 

> 2. I know that Hagrid tells Harry that Lockhart was the only applicant for the job, but still why do you think Dumbledore hired him? Does it mean that Snape applying every year was after all a lie? If it was a lie, why Dumbledore did not teach DADA himself, instead of hiring incompetent imbecile whom I consider Gilderoy to be?
Potioncat:
Hagrid often gets things wrong; even so I've found his statement confusing. Perhaps he was actually being discrete in not mentioning Snape. I know we're told Snape applies every year. Does anyone remember where we learn that?and from which character? 
DD had to wait for the right time to put Snape in the position, and since he wasn't telling anyone the truth, he pretty much had to take what came his way. As much as it seems he could have chosen better DADA teachers there are two things to remember. He may have tried that in the past?there were many school years since Riddle cast the curse before we enter the story; and he would be putting someone in a cursed position. He may have been careful about risking others. Does anyone really think he warned Moody or Lupin? 
Someone else has already given the reason why neither DD nor Snape can teach DADA?even if DD had the time to do so. However, I don't think Snape ever knew officially from DD about the curse. So we readers see two things, DD hires increasingly incompetent DADA instructors for reasons that are unclear to us; and Snape has a growing resentment against DADA instructors. JKR used that very well to mislead the reader and advance the story. 

> 3. Among many other things I hold Albus Dumbledore responsible for is him not shouting to Wizarding World about Tom Riddle being Lord Voldemort, while IMO telling useless nonsense to Harry about calling him one imaginary name instead of another imaginary name. But in this chapter Dumbledore easily shares such information and while he does it within limited circle of people, he does not ask them to keep it a secret or anything like that. Should I cross off this offense (my opinion of course) off the list and maybe realize that he may have shared such information more than once and people were not interested in sharing such information with each other?
Potioncat:
And what good would it have done anyway? Tom Riddle was only known by his teachers and fellow class mates, and he vanished a few years after leaving Hogwarts.  So, yeah, cross it off your list. (It's a very long list anyway.)

> 4 Ginny insists her brothers would not tease Percy about Penelope, is there a chance that Fred and George will keep their promise?
Potioncat: 
Not likely, but Pippin made a good point about it. Come to think about it, do we ever see them teasing Ginny about her boyfriends or Ron about his romance? I actually don't remember, so it's not a rhetorical question. However, I just took a look at that section. Based on their reactions, I'd say not a chance at all.

> 5. Dumbledore tells Harry " It is our choices, Harry, that show what
> we truly are, far more than our abilities ". Which choice of Harry's is Albus talking about here? Do you agree this is a difference from Tom Riddle?

Potioncat:
The quote alone is absolutely right on. But it always bothered me that in the context DD seemed to be saying that Harry made a moral decision to avoid Slytherin House. I don't like the concept that the house itself is bad. But I think the real intent is that Riddle chose power over everything else, while Harry was actually choosing friendship. He knows he doesn't want to be the House of Draco Malfoy, the house as described by Ron. So he's turning down greatness?in spite of his need to prove himself?in favor of relationships.

> 6. What did you think happened to big and scary Basilisk before DH?
Potioncat:
Sorry, I'm missing something about this question. I just assumed the body lay there. I had no idea it would sort of play a role later on.
> 
> 7. Harry is asking Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life again." Did you expect a repeat performance from Dobby and did it live up to your expectations if any?

Potioncat:
Not at first. I think as the series came closer to ending it seemed Dobby would play a part in the outcome. Good thing for Harry he didn't follow that order.

> In light of DH do you believe that JKR planned Dobby's character arc already when she wrote CoS? Why or why not?
Potioncat:
Yes, I think she did. His character is well developed. He has a counterpart in Kreacher. JKR shows early on that he has magical abilities beyond the obvious. It appears she had given lots of thought to him.

Potioncat's question
DD says that Harry possesses traits that Slytherin prized: a disregard for the rules, resourcefulness and determination.  Which characters do you think demonstrate those traits? Which houses do they represent?


Thanks for the intriguing questions, Alla.








From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Jun  5 17:58:33 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Jun 2010 17:58:33 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/6/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1275760713.8.18357.m2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189274

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 6, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
(The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2010 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20100605/6544d48b/attachment.html>

From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  5 20:18:51 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 20:18:51 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hu51n0+vu2k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huebfb+i4rt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189275

Joey wrote:
> 
> I presume DD's schedule and chores as a headmaster forced him to delegate the job to a teacher while he retained his accountability (for we learn that he had discussions with Fake!Moody about the curriculum). I think his fear of Snape going back to his old ways outweighed his disappointment in Lockhart due to which he chose Lockhart.

Carol responds:
I'm pretty sure that DD's supposed fear that Snape would return to his old ways was a cover story for the young, newly hired Snape (already spying for DD) to tell Voldemort (who was not vaporized until the end of the following October) and any curious DEs. (Compare the lies, half truths, and cover stories that Snape gives to Bellatrix and Narcissa in HBP.) DD's real reason would almost certainly be to protect Snape from the jinx. He needs him at Hogwarts, and he needs an expert Potions teacher, so keeping Snape as Potions master (and HoH of Slytherin) serves two useful purposes until the time comes to let him teach DADA. If Draco hadn't been ordered to kill DD *and* DD hadn't doomed himself by putting on the ring Horcrux (from which Snape could only temporarily save him), I think DD would have continued to put off giving him the position, knowing that the jinx would, at the very least, reveal him as a (supposedly) loyal DE.

As for disappointment in Lockhart, DD probably knew from the start that he was a fraud, but hiring an inept teacher was the price he had to pay for retaining Snape. (The idea that Snape would return to Voldemort after Voldemort had killed Lily probably never crossed his mind, especially after all the risks that Snape had taken and all the services that he had performed even as early as CoS.)

Carol, noting that Snape and DD share a propensity for half truths




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Jun  6 16:54:10 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 16:54:10 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <hu4evv+bm5o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hugjri+j02g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189276


> Pippin:
> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Sorting Hat's song in GoF, "And power-hungry Slytherin/ Loved those of great ambition."
> Hunger, IOW, is part of what the Hat looks for in a Slytherin. 
> 
> Canon never says anything directly about *why* the Slytherins crave power, but I have a theory about it. One thing many Slytherins seems to share is an attitude of resignation. It's amazing how some of their more memorable speeches  reflect this. 
> 
> Bella: Throw us into Azkaban; we will wait!
> Draco: I've got no choice.
> Regulus: I know I will be dead long before you read this
> Snape: I wish *I* were dead 
> 
> Slytherin himself resigned literally by leaving Hogwarts.  Voldemort is  certain that he can do nothing unless one of his servants returns to him. Lucius, and then Narcissa, resign their wands. 
> 
> A Slytherin, IOW, is someone who wants to make a difference, but feels he lacks the power to do so. And that sheds some light on the idea that all you have to do to avoid being placed in Slytherin is to ask the Hat to put you somewhere else. A person who believes he can make a difference is not resigned.
> 



Potioncat:
I didn't cut any of this portion of Pippin's post because I think it belongs in the fantastic post file.

I think you've defined an very real aspect of the Slytherin personality. It explains why Riddle would put so much stock in the prophecy and why Slytherins value their blood status--it's part of their fate.

The idea particulalry rings true because there is a similar cultural trait identified for the Appalachian region called Appalachian Fatalism. 




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jun  6 16:59:57 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 6 Jun 2010 16:59:57 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/6/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1275843597.515.99195.m12@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189277

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 6, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2010 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20100606/cdc0d939/attachment.html>

From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Jun  6 21:43:18 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 21:43:18 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <huebfb+i4rt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huh4pm+eaqq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189278



> Carol responds:
> I'm pretty sure that DD's supposed fear that Snape would return to his old ways was a cover story for the young, newly hired Snape (already spying for DD) to tell Voldemort (who was not vaporized until the end of the following October) and any curious DEs. 

potioncat:
I agree. Don't we get a view of DD saying something like "DADA might bring out the worst in you." or something to that effect? (Can't remember which book.) Bringing out the worst seemed to indicate that Snape might be tempted into Dark Arts, but I think it simply refers to the curse itself, which causes a damaging secret to be revealed.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  6 21:50:47 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 21:50:47 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and Tom Riddle WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS Chapter 18
In-Reply-To: <hue08f+dpf5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huh57n+3sht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189279


3. Among many other things I hold Albus Dumbledore responsible for is him not
shouting to Wizarding World about Tom Riddle being Lord Voldemort, while IMO
telling useless nonsense to Harry about calling him one imaginary name instead
of another imaginary name. But in this chapter Dumbledore easily shares such
information and while he does it within limited circle of people, he does not
ask them to keep it a secret or anything like that. Should I cross off this
offense (my opinion of course) off the list and maybe realize that he may have
shared such information more than once and people were not interested in sharing
such information with each other?
Potioncat:
And what good would it have done anyway? Tom Riddle was only known by his
teachers and fellow class mates, and he vanished a few years after leaving
Hogwarts. So, yeah, cross it off your list. (It's a very long list anyway.)


Alla:

Well, personally I think it would have been done a great job of shrinking mysterious great wizard Lord Voldemort to a human Tom Riddle who as you said supposedly vanished a few years after leaving Hogwarts. See if Dumbledore did not talk about that fear of the name increases fear of the person (or whatever the exact quote is), I would have never put this offense on my long list lol. But he did talk about that and here I am thinking for a long time really, why the heck would he not insist everybody call him Tom Riddle, Tom Riddle? A usual ordinary person and not a an enigma, a mystery Lord Voldemort. I remember Pippin had the theory in the past discussions about people being threatened who knew his name if Dumbledore did disclose him, but I was just not buying it and still not buying it. However this is why this reminder here is so important to me, it looks like that at least Dumbledore trusted more than one person with this "secret" and did not insist it should be kept a secret, so I am thinking well, maybe he tried and people could care less and ignored this piece of knowledge, which to me yes would have been a great symbolic and more than symbolic act of bringing evil down to manageable size.  IMO of course. But due to the fact that Dumbledore actually opens his mouth here, I promise to seriously consider crossing this one hehe, especially as you said, the list is very long anyway.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
All Voldemort's initial followers knew him as Riddle. He didn't pick the name to
deceive them, he picked it because he didn't want to be reminded of his Muggle
father. When he first returned, Riddle was the name that people had heard and
Voldemort was the secret one -- IMO it would be a much bigger propaganda point
for Dumbledore to show that he knew the Voldemort name and wasn't afraid to use
it than it would have been to publicly insist on using the name Tom Riddle.

Alla:

Who are those initial followers who knew him as Riddle? Very few people who went with him to school, right? Right after he comes back even if very young he chooses the name Voldemort and who ever joined even fifteen years ago (or whatever time is till his first disappearance) has no clue that he is an ordinary human creep who learned how to do magic well and not that Mystery person, he used to have family till he killed them, he used to have everything AND be afraid of everything just as his targets are. He grew up in orphanage for crying out loud, why not to bring this up in the air, again to show case how absolutely ordinary he is?

No, I do not think I have seen an argument yet that would convince me that talking about Riddle as Riddle would be a bad idea, or at least that it would have fewer benefits than not talking.

JMO of course,
Alla






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  6 22:02:30 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 22:02:30 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore  and DADA teachers WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:
In-Reply-To: <hue08f+dpf5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huh5tm+b6kr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189280


??	2. I know that Hagrid tells Harry that Lockhart was the only applicant for the
job, but still why do you think Dumbledore hired him? Does it mean that Snape
applying every year was after all a lie? If it was a lie, why Dumbledore did not
teach DADA himself, instead of hiring incompetent imbecile whom I consider
Gilderoy to be?
Potioncat:
Hagrid often gets things wrong; even so I've found his statement confusing.
Perhaps he was actually being discrete in not mentioning Snape. I know we're
told Snape applies every year. Does anyone remember where we learn that?Xand from
which character?

Potioncat:
DD had to wait for the right time to put Snape in the position, and since he
wasn't telling anyone the truth, he pretty much had to take what came his way.
As much as it seems he could have chosen better DADA teachers there are two
things to remember. He may have tried that in the past?Xthere were many school
years since Riddle cast the curse before we enter the story; and he would be
putting someone in a cursed position. He may have been careful about risking
others. Does anyone really think he warned Moody or Lupin?

Alla:

I am not sure if I am willing to think that Dumbledore has tried in the past. I guess I have seen him too many times to sacrifice the interests of the students on the altar of Snape for example and hiring incompetents AND not figuring out who Moody was that I am just not willing to give him the benefits of the doubt on that one.

And sure, yes, cursed position, but you know what I feel he should have done if he truly did not want to risk teachers?? secrets being exposed or whatever else the curse could have done?  Well, I think he should have tried himself and take that risk definitely. Hovewer, I realize that it is a lot to ask, but he has so many students that need to know DADA and can learn nothing from the imbeciles that Dumbledore hired, that I think he should have crossed DADA from the Hogwarts curriculum and yes explain to the Board why. This way students who wanted to learn it anyway could have gone to different schools. Yes, I know we would have no story, but from within the story I am just shaking my head how very little time or thought Dumbledore devoted to actual education of the students and providing to their needs.  IMO of course.


Potioncat:
Someone else has already given the reason why neither DD nor Snape can teach
DADA?Xeven if DD had the time to do so. However, I don't think Snape ever knew
officially from DD about the curse. So we readers see two things, DD hires
increasingly incompetent DADA instructors for reasons that are unclear to us;
and Snape has a growing resentment against DADA instructors. JKR used that very
well to mislead the reader and advance the story.

Alla:

Oh yes, I remember why Snape could not have taught it, the argument I mean. Could you remind me about why Dumbledore could not, besides the curse I mean, because I think that he should have taken the risk.

JMO,

Alla






From jnoyl at aim.com  Fri Jun  4 10:04:29 2010
From: jnoyl at aim.com (James Lyon)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 03:04:29 -0700
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
Message-ID: <949B8BBE-F0A6-4543-9E26-5DA9707BCCD5@aim.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189281

There may be some girls who "like" movie!Snape, but if any of them  
have the same feelings for canon!Snape, they should run to the  
nearest mental health clinic.
The thing is canon!Snape really rules Hoggy. He seems to be able to  
do anything he wants, legal or illegal, and he gets the full support  
of the staff. Must maintain appearances, huff, huff, Old Boy. Be a  
good Bean and don't interfere with the rule of Professor over  
students, right...

"James Lyon"



From aletamosquito at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 00:48:27 2010
From: aletamosquito at gmail.com (Aleta Turner)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 20:48:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <949B8BBE-F0A6-4543-9E26-5DA9707BCCD5@aim.com>
References: <949B8BBE-F0A6-4543-9E26-5DA9707BCCD5@aim.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikfT7nl6m6q4N4r9JYkzb47A7PFLh8mdK6BwZKE@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189282

Regarding boys in girls' dorms and vice versa: I can't remember right
off which book it is (5th perhaps?) but Ron tries to go see Hermione
in her dorm room and the stairs instantly turn into a steep incline
that slides him back to the common room. He's indignant about that,
because Hermione has been to the boys' room, and Hermione makes a
remark that apparently the founders trusted girls more.

Aleta

-- 
~~~~~~~~
"Beauty is before me, and beauty is behind me, above me and below me
hovers the beautiful... In beauty it is begun. In beauty, it is
ended."
-Navaho



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun  7 02:12:09 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 02:12:09 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and Tom Riddle WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS Chapter 18
In-Reply-To: <huh57n+3sht@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huhkhp+q6nb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189283


> Alla:
> 
> Well, personally I think it would have been done a great job of shrinking mysterious great wizard Lord Voldemort to a human Tom Riddle who as you said supposedly vanished a few years after leaving Hogwarts. See if Dumbledore did not talk about that fear of the name increases fear of the person (or whatever the exact quote is), I would have never put this offense on my long list lol. But he did talk about that and here I am thinking for a long time really, why the heck would he not insist everybody call him Tom Riddle, Tom Riddle? A usual ordinary person and not a an enigma, a mystery Lord Voldemort.

Pippin:
No one who knew Tom Riddle thought he was usual or ordinary. He had  won every award and distinction Hogwarts had to offer including membership in Slughorn's group of highly influential and well-connected wizards. Some of them,  like Avery and Lestrange, became the nucleus of the Death Eaters. Although Dumbledore says that very few people connected Voldemort with Riddle, we see that Riddle on his first return was still recognizable and anyone who knew him from the Slug Club would have known him on sight, just as Dumbledore and Harry did.   

I think Dumbledore oversimplified in CoS. All Harry needed to know then was why he'd never heard the name Tom Riddle before. But it seems plain that the same people who were afraid to say "Voldemort" were equally afraid to say "Tom Riddle", and the authors of all the books Hermione had read obviously did not use that name, even though there were plenty of people besides Dumbledore who could have told them about it.

Voldemort is not a Lockhart, a creep  pretending to have magic powers which surpass those of other wizards.  Voldemort really does have them: legilimency, parseltongue, intentional wandless magic and possession.   So Dumbledore had to walk a fine line: he didn't want people to be so afraid of Voldemort that they wouldn't resist him, but he didn't want them to dismiss the danger either.  

Pippin
 





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  7 05:57:24 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 05:57:24 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <huebfb+i4rt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hui1o4+a623@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189284

> Joey wrote:
> I presume DD's schedule and chores as a headmaster forced him to delegate the job to a teacher while he retained his accountability (for we learn that he had discussions with Fake!Moody about the curriculum). I think his fear of Snape going back to his old ways outweighed his disappointment in Lockhart due to which he chose Lockhart.
 
> Carol wrote:
[snip]
If Draco hadn't been ordered to kill DD *and* DD hadn't doomed himself by putting on the ring Horcrux (from which Snape could only temporarily save him), I think DD would have continued to put off giving him the position, knowing that the jinx would, at the very least, reveal him as a (supposedly) loyal DE.

[snip]
>(The idea that Snape would return to Voldemort after Voldemort had killed Lily probably never crossed his mind, especially after all the risks that Snape had taken and all the services that he had performed even as early as CoS.)

potioncat wrote:
>I agree. Don't we get a view of DD saying something like "DADA might bring out the worst in you." or something to that effect? (Can't remember which book.) Bringing out the worst seemed to indicate that Snape might be tempted into Dark Arts, but I think it simply refers to the curse itself, which causes a damaging secret to be revealed.

Joey:

I think the jinx only ensured that the DADA teacher ceases to be a DADA teacher anymore. I agree that damaging secrets (damaging to the teacher, I mean :-)) were revealed in the case of Quirrel, Lockhart, Lupin and Fake!Moody. However, what damaging secret was revealed in the case of Umbridge? Everyone knew what she was already, didn't they? 

I think DD knew the value of Snape (as he says himself) but he never trusted him (or anybody) *in full*. He trusted Snape with the secret regarding Harry only during HBP days and that too only after Snape demanded to know the truth (as per what we learn from TPT chapter in DH). He still refrained from telling Snape about Horcruxes! 

Snape did get to teach DADA in HBP even while DD was headmaster. If DD was so worried about the jinx or about any secret related to Snape being revealed, he wouldn't have risked giving the DADA teacher job to Snape at all. DD had a tougher challenge in HBP - it wasn't an ex-DE Snape vs a pathetic Lockhart anymore - he badly wanted the memory from Slughorn now. I think this time DD's desperation to get the memory outwieghed his suspicions about Snape going back to his old ways. 

DD never became minister of magic as he thought he was not to be trusted with power and this despite the terrible remorse that filled his being. He gave second chances, yes, but he never had *100 percent* trust, I think. JMHO. :-)

> Carol wrote:
> As for disappointment in Lockhart, DD probably knew from the start that he was a fraud, but hiring an inept teacher was the price he had to pay for retaining Snape. 

Joey:

Agreed. That's what I meant too.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)





From no.limberger at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 14:02:58 2010
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 07:02:58 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 
	18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <4C06FB49.20908@moosewise.com>
References: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
	<AANLkTil5weSV66YhJ8Pvo31JSH6VYR9E3XjL1-TL2yHm@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C06FB49.20908@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimo_OTupkh7jxnp1enw4uSr4vgx_12nQDgR6ZHw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189285

>No Limberger wrote:
> After reading HBP, I didn't want to believe that Harry contained a
horcrux,
> which turned out to be the case. Each of the books leading up to DH
> were moving in that direction, beginning with SS/PS in which Harry started
> to experience pain in his scar anytime that LV was near. Then, he learns
> that he is connected to LV in CoS when Harry learns that LV put a part
> of himself into Harry the night LV killed Harry's parents and tried to
kill
> Harry.

>Bart wrote:
>I was very much against the idea of Harry being a horcrux, too,
>although I believed he was something akin to one. Still am. It just
>appeared that the process of creating a horcrux was too complex for one
>to be created by accident. My feeling was that a piece of Morty's soul
>did move into Harry, but remained separate; this was part of the reason
>why the soul piece could be removed from Harry without his own destruction.

No.Limberger responds:
When I think about what occurred the night that Harry's parents were
killed by LV, there were a number of unusual circumstances. First, LV
had already created 6 horcruxes before attacking the Potters, which was an
effort to kill Harry. This suggests the possibility that his soul was
probably
already rather weakened and potentially rather susceptible to accidental
splitting. Next, Harry's mother had imbued Harry with the ancient magic of
her love. This was not something that LV had anticipated. How that ancient
magic works is not fully understood, but was clearly designed to protect
Harry
at all costs. Next, to create a horcrux, someone had to die. Before
attempting
to kill Harry, LV had killed both Lily & James Potter, so the process of
creating a horcrux was primed.

Lastly, consider the fact that every other horcrux that LV had created was
an
inanimate object to store a piece of his soul. Harry was a living, sentient
being.
We know that when Harry, Hermione & Ron were using the polyjuice potion, it
was only intended to be used for human transformation, not animal. The
result
of unintentionally using it for an animal transformation caused the spell to
act
differently and Hermione had to spend some time in the infirmary to recover.
We
can speculate that the spell to create a horcrux was probably only intended
to
be used with an inanimate object. Thus, when LV tried to kill Harry, it was
probably Lily's ancient magic combining with the fact that LV's soul was
already
weakened and primed for splitting that allowed the unintentional horcrux
creation
to occur. LV never knew that Harry was a horcrux, and Harry didn't have to
be
completely destroyed in order for the horcrux to be removed. This was an
unexpected consequence.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jun  7 14:33:32 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 14:33:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hui1o4+a623@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huivvs+mvai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189286


> 
> Joey:
> 
> I think the jinx only ensured that the DADA teacher ceases to be a DADA teacher anymore. I agree that damaging secrets (damaging to the teacher, I mean :-)) were revealed in the case of Quirrel, Lockhart, Lupin and Fake!Moody. However, what damaging secret was revealed in the case of Umbridge? Everyone knew what she was already, didn't they? 

Potioncat:
Damaging secret may not be the best choice of words. Carol wrote an interesting analysis of the jinx, but darned if I can find it. The curse seems to do more than just prevent the DADA teacher from coming back. It pulls something from within the candidate and reveals something--using that weakness if you will to push him out of Hogwarts. 

The secret from Delores was that she sent the Dementors after Harry. That didn't go any farther than the kids, but neither did Lockhart's secret. It was her continuing drive to oust DD and her pure-blood mania that caused her disaster with the Centaurs--all tied into her weakness.


> JOey
> Snape did get to teach DADA in HBP even while DD was headmaster. If DD was so worried about the jinx or about any secret related to Snape being revealed, he wouldn't have risked giving the DADA teacher job to Snape at all. DD had a tougher challenge in HBP - it wasn't an ex-DE Snape vs a pathetic Lockhart anymore - he badly wanted the memory from Slughorn now. I think this time DD's desperation to get the memory outwieghed his suspicions about Snape going back to his old ways. 

Potioncat:
By HBP the curse was a moot point. DD had only a year and LV would move into Hogwarts. DD knew that, and was hoping Snape would be Headmaster. 

I know it was important for DD to bring Slughorn back, but I think it was more than needing Slughorn that caused him to move Snape. Although now that I think about it, perhaps he wouldn't have moved Snape if he hadn't needed Slughorn. Thinking about it more, someone worse--ie another DE may have come into the DADA position if Snape had not.

> Joey
> DD never became minister of magic as he thought he was not to be trusted with power and this despite the terrible remorse that filled his being. He gave second chances, yes, but he never had *100 percent* trust, I think. JMHO. :-)

Potioncat:
Agreed. He never quite trusted anyone well enough.
> 
>




From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Jun  7 17:43:03 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:43:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter
 	18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimo_OTupkh7jxnp1enw4uSr4vgx_12nQDgR6ZHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>	<AANLkTil5weSV66YhJ8Pvo31JSH6VYR9E3XjL1-TL2yHm@mail.gmail.com>	<4C06FB49.20908@moosewise.com> <AANLkTimo_OTupkh7jxnp1enw4uSr4vgx_12nQDgR6ZHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C0D2FA7.9070007@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189287

Bart wrote:
>> I was very much against the idea of Harry being a horcrux, too,
>> although I believed he was something akin to one. Still am. It just
>> appeared that the process of creating a horcrux was too complex for one
>> to be created by accident. My feeling was that a piece of Morty's soul
>> did move into Harry, but remained separate; this was part of the reason
>> why the soul piece could be removed from Harry without his own destruction.
>>      

> No.Limberger responds:
> We
> can speculate that the spell to create a horcrux was probably only intended
> to
> be used with an inanimate object. Thus, when LV tried to kill Harry, it was
> probably Lily's ancient magic combining with the fact that LV's soul was
> already
> weakened and primed for splitting that allowed the unintentional horcrux
> creation
> to occur. LV never knew that Harry was a horcrux, and Harry didn't have to
> be
> completely destroyed in order for the horcrux to be removed. This was an
> unexpected consequence.
>    

Bart:
     Well, this IS getting into the realm of hair splitting. And it is 
true that JKR never really fully defined a horcrux; we can only deduce 
from the "behavior" of the other horcruxes. And, for example, we can't 
know for sure how much Morty's connection with Naggy had to do with 
Naggy being a Horcrux, and how much being his natural affinity to 
snakes. Certainly, Morty's inability to get into Harry's head without so 
much pain as to make it not worth his while (note that, in OOP, Morty 
uses Harry's entree into HIS mind to manipulate Harry, rather than the 
other way around).

     The Prophecy combined with the established canon (third person 
accounts, as opposed to quotes, unless the material quoted is given as 
objective rather than speculation, even if it's DD's speculation) still 
implies that the Mortysoul in Harry is different than that in the other 
horcruxes. It is implied that there is as much Mortysoul in Harry as 
there is in Morty (which isn't much). Which means that if Harry killed 
Morty without destroying his own piece of Mortysoul, he might end up 
becoming the "New Morty" himself.

     In any case, the point is that, from the point of view of a horcrux 
being a piece of a wizard's soul stored outside the wizard, then yes, 
Harry is a horcrux. But from the "behavior" we have observed from the 
diary, the ring, and Naggy (we don't really see anything from the cup or 
the diadem), it does not look like Harry is the same kind of horcrux as 
the rest.

     Bart





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Jun  7 19:33:17 2010
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 19:33:17 -0000
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <949B8BBE-F0A6-4543-9E26-5DA9707BCCD5@aim.com>
Message-ID: <hujhht+g2b5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189288

> There may be some girls who "like" movie!Snape, but if any of them  
> have the same feelings for canon!Snape, they should run to the  
> nearest mental health clinic.

Magpie:
I'd watch that. There are indeed plenty of readers who "like" canon Snape and don't consider themselves in need of a mental health clinic!

Alla:
Regarding boys in girls' dorms and vice versa: I can't remember right
off which book it is (5th perhaps?) but Ron tries to go see Hermione
in her dorm room and the stairs instantly turn into a steep incline
that slides him back to the common room. He's indignant about that,
because Hermione has been to the boys' room, and Hermione makes a
remark that apparently the founders trusted girls more.

Magpie:
Which is so bizarre given the behavior of girls in the WW. Every single example of too-aggressive sexual aggression comes from girls in canon. (And even when they're not appearing to be aggressive they're often revealed to be doing more scheming than the boys.)

-m




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Jun  7 19:40:56 2010
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 19:40:56 -0000
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <hujhht+g2b5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huji08+rq9g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189289

> Alla:
> Regarding boys in girls' dorms and vice versa: I can't remember right
> off which book it is (5th perhaps?) but Ron tries to go see Hermione
> in her dorm room and the stairs instantly turn into a steep incline
> that slides him back to the common room. He's indignant about that,
> because Hermione has been to the boys' room, and Hermione makes a
> remark that apparently the founders trusted girls more.
> 
> Magpie:
> Which is so bizarre given the behavior of girls in the WW. Every single example of too-aggressive sexual aggression comes from girls in canon. (And even when they're not appearing to be aggressive they're often revealed to be doing more scheming than the boys.)

Magpie:
Of course once I wrote that I could think of at least one male version with the Bloody Baron killing the Grey Lady I think because he couldn't have her or something? But when it comes to going after guys sexually, what we see in canon is almost all female to male. Maybe Hagrid's stumbling over meeting Madam Maxime is an exception.

-m




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jun  7 20:24:03 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 20:24:03 -0000
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <hujhht+g2b5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hujkh3+110o0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189290



> 
> Magpie:
> I'd watch that. There are indeed plenty of readers who "like" canon Snape and don't consider themselves in need of a mental health clinic!
> 
Potioncat:
Yes, but the patient is often the last to know.

Many readers are intrigued by the mystery of Snape--friend or foe?, what is he up to? protective yet menacing-- added to his exceptional magical skills and nerve-wracking aloofness. Not to mention that Rickman with all those tiny buttons just fanned the flames...or perhaps flamed the fans.

Yet, emotionally Snape is stunted and would not be a good partner--at least not until after the war when he had time to decompress, which alas, did not happen.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun  7 21:01:40 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:01:40 -0000
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <huji08+rq9g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hujmnk+m8lu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189291

 
> > Magpie:
> > Which is so bizarre given the behavior of girls in the WW. Every single example of too-aggressive sexual aggression comes from girls in canon. (And even when they're not appearing to be aggressive they're often revealed to be doing more scheming than the boys.)
> 
> Magpie:
> Of course once I wrote that I could think of at least one male version with the Bloody Baron killing the Grey Lady I think because he couldn't have her or something? But when it comes to going after guys sexually, what we see in canon is almost all female to male. Maybe Hagrid's stumbling over meeting Madam Maxime is an exception.
> 

Pippin:
Well, when it comes to going after guys, there is Grindelwald going after DD and there are those sexual undertones  between Voldie and Harry in the graveyard ::shudder:: <g>. 

 I was about to write that being protective only towards the girls was just typical of the Founders' short-sightedness, but then I realized that for all their scheming, the girls don't physically pursue  the boys. Boys are lured to them  with love potions and veela powers -- which means that the staircase/slide would thwart both male and female aggression.

Pippin




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun  7 21:14:33 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:14:33 -0000
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <hujkh3+110o0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hujnfp+i9dk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189292

 
> > Magpie:
> > I'd watch that. There are indeed plenty of readers who "like" canon Snape and don't consider themselves in need of a mental health clinic!
> > 
> Potioncat:
> Yes, but the patient is often the last to know.
> 
> Many readers are intrigued by the mystery of Snape--friend or foe?, what is he up to? protective yet menacing-- added to his exceptional magical skills and nerve-wracking aloofness. Not to mention that Rickman with all those tiny buttons just fanned the flames...or perhaps flamed the fans.
> 
> Yet, emotionally Snape is stunted and would not be a good partner--at least not until after the war when he had time to decompress, which alas, did not happen.
>

Pippin:
True. And yet, fantasy among its many virtues allows us to enjoy things which in real life would be bad for us, or at any rate emotionally exhausting. I would doubt the sanity and the wisdom of anyone who actually wanted to be a superspy or a costume hero (or, for that matter, a  wizard with messianic powers), but I don't think it's crazy to daydream about it. 

Pipipn




From technomad at intergate.com  Tue Jun  8 00:26:25 2010
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 19:26:25 -0500
Subject: Things Harry could have done
Message-ID: <20100607192625.5j8j5qk2ogkc0ooo@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189293

I was kind of disappointed that a lot of stuff that came up in the  
earlier books wasn't used again.

Like, for instance, the Veelas.  If I'd been Harry, or at least tasked  
with taking the DEs out of commission, I'd have wanted to find a way  
to deploy some Veelas and get them dancing when Lord V comes to  
Hogwarts looking for trouble.  Since it's clearly stated in GoF that  
women are immune, I'd just have the guys waiting back in the castle  
while Hermione and the witches were dealing with the hypnotized male  
DEs.

If this worked, it'd rob Lord V of all of his followers save only  
Bella, and cut the fight down considerably.  "Supreme excellence in  
war lies in achieving victory without fighting," as Sun Tzu says.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  8 00:54:53 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 17:54:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things Harry could have done
In-Reply-To: <20100607192625.5j8j5qk2ogkc0ooo@webmail.intergate.com>
References: <20100607192625.5j8j5qk2ogkc0ooo@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <914747.59526.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189294

 Eric:
I was kind of disappointed that a lot of stuff that came up in the 
earlier books wasn't used again.

Like, for instance, the Veelas.  If I'd been Harry, or at least tasked 
with taking the DEs out of commission, I'd have wanted to find a way 
to deploy some Veelas and get them dancing when Lord V comes to 
Hogwarts looking for trouble.  Since it's clearly stated in GoF that 
women are immune, I'd just have the guys waiting back in the castle 
while Hermione and the witches were dealing with the hypnotized male 
DEs.

If this worked, it'd rob Lord V of all of his followers save only 
Bella, and cut the fight down considerably.  "Supreme excellence in 
war lies in achieving victory without fighting," as Sun Tzu says.
 

luirhys: Do you really think that moldy would be affected by veelas? 
LOL. What a great mental image.  








From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Jun  8 01:49:21 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:49:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things Harry could have done
In-Reply-To: <20100607192625.5j8j5qk2ogkc0ooo@webmail.intergate.com>
References: <20100607192625.5j8j5qk2ogkc0ooo@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <4C0DA1A1.5040301@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189295

On 6/7/2010 8:26 PM, Eric Oppen wrote:
> I was kind of disappointed that a lot of stuff that came up in the
> earlier books wasn't used again.
>    

Bart:
     I was kind of disappointed that the half-bloods didn't use Muggle 
tricks against the DE's. One example I have given before is to set a 
bunch of explosives, yell "Voldemort", and run away. When the DE's show 
up, well, it's kind of hard to use magic after you have been blown to bits.

     Bart




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jun  8 02:11:53 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 02:11:53 -0000
Subject: Fantasy Figures (was Re: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <hujnfp+i9dk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huk8t9+30gs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189296


 
> Pippin:
> True. And yet, fantasy among its many virtues allows us to enjoy things which in real life would be bad for us, or at any rate emotionally exhausting. I would doubt the sanity and the wisdom of anyone who actually wanted to be a superspy or a costume hero (or, for that matter, a  wizard with messianic powers), but I don't think it's crazy to daydream about it. 


Potioncat:
Another frequent object of fantasy was Sirius--who would have been just as emotionally exhausting as Severus. Though if fan-fic is any indication, just about any character with a name caught someone's fancy.

Barty Crouch, Sr anyone?





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Jun  8 03:00:55 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 03:00:55 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <ht28f4+ja2h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hukbp7+jskh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189297



>> 
 
> 
> 1. How is the magical diary in CoS like a modern Muggle device that young
> (and not so young) use? Do you think this was intended as a warning?
> 

Nikkalmati

It does remind us of the internet and such, but I don't think JKR could have anticipated the current state of affairs.  It is a valid general warning of the "don't trust strangers" variety all children hear from adults. 

Nikkalmati

> 2. How does Riddle's comment fit with the theme of secret keeping we see
> throughout the Harry Potter series?

Nikkalmati

Everyone keeps secrets (except perhaps Sybil), but it usually leads to problems.  In a way secrets are a plot device.  For DD it is a way of life.  However, remember at this age girls love secrets and diaries and imaginary boyfriends, so it fits well with Ginny's age and personality.

Nikkalmati

> 
> 3. Riddle says he grew stronger on the diet of deepest fears and darkest
> secrets. What dark creature does this recall? Is this also the nature of a
> Horcrux? Did the locket in DH do the same thing?

Nikkalmati

I have always been a bit confused about what Dementors feed upon.  Happy thoughts drive them away, but they feed on sadness and make it spread?  Riddle does seem more like a Horcrux which identifies your weak points and magnifies your fears (rather than sadness).  How dark could Ginny's secrets have been at that age?

Nikkalmati  
> 
> 4. How did Ginny hide her feather-covered, paint-splattered robes? Did
> House Elves clean them without telling anyone?

Nikkalmati

I tend to agree that the House Elves would not think twice about anything they found on the student's robes and could probably clean anything.

Nikkalmati
> 
> 5. When the Basilisk appears, Fawkes flew off Harry's shoulder. Harry
> wanted to cry, "Don't leave me!" Compare this to Harry's experience in DH when
> he goes to face Voldemort in the forest.

Nikkalmati

In COS Harry felt defenseless and alone.  He was much younger, of course.  He had no plan.  In the forest, Harry was afraid but he had a purpose and a mission.

Nikkalmati
> 
> 6. Several times Riddle's expression is described as "hungry." Young
> Severus's expression was described the same way in DH. What do you make of this?

Nikkalmati

Not too much.  JKR probably was using the same images to express desire for something the character wants very much.

Nikkalmati


> 
> 7. Riddle comments on how similar he and Harry are. We can make several
> comparisons: Harry and Tom; Severus and Tom; Severus and Harry. What is JKR up
> to with this Trio?

Nikkalmati

We could see them as examples of what can happen to adults as the result of an unsatisfactory childhood.  Harry, of course, overcame everything.  Severus took the wrong path, but reversed himself.  Tom just went to hell.  Like the good, the bad and the ugly - only it was the good, the ugly, and the bad.


Nikkalmati
> 
> 8. What questions do you have?
> 
Nikkalmati

Tom talks about Hagrid keeping werewolf cubs under his bed.  What does that mean?  Werewolves are humans who, ike Lupin, have human children, such as, Teddy.  Their children do not transform and they would be human most of the time in any case.  What was JKR thinking?

Nikkalmati
>
, 




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Jun  8 03:46:07 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 03:46:07 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hue08f+dpf5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hukedv+b1fl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189298



>
> Alla wrote:
 
> 
> > 2. I know that Hagrid tells Harry that Lockhart was the only applicant for the job, but still why do you think Dumbledore hired him? Does it mean that Snape applying every year was after all a lie? If it was a lie, why Dumbledore did not teach DADA himself, instead of hiring incompetent imbecile whom I consider Gilderoy to be?
> Potioncat:
> Hagrid often gets things wrong; even so I've found his statement confusing. Perhaps he was actually being discrete in not mentioning Snape. I know we're told Snape applies every year. Does anyone remember where we learn that?and from which character? 

Nikkalmati

I know it is mentioned several times.  In SS U.S. paperback p 126 Percy says ". . . that's Professor Snape.  He teaches Potions, but he doesn't want to -- everyone knows he's after Quirrell's job.  Knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts, Snape."  

In COS Harry and Ron notice Snape is not at table and Harry says to Ron: "Maybe he's left, . . becausee he missed out on the Defense Against Dark Arts job again!"  U. S. paperback at 78.

In POA paperback p. 93 "It was common knowledge that Snape wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts job, but even Harry, who hated Snape, was startled at the expression twisting his thin, sallow face."

Not sure where it says he applied every year, but I do remember that statement was made

Nikkalmati




From technomad at intergate.com  Tue Jun  8 04:06:47 2010
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 23:06:47 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things Harry could have done
In-Reply-To: <914747.59526.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20100607192625.5j8j5qk2ogkc0ooo@webmail.intergate.com>
	<914747.59526.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100607230647.k5zcisympcsskssc@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189299

Quoting lui <lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com>:

>  Eric:
> I was kind of disappointed that a lot of stuff that came up in the
> earlier books wasn't used again.
>
> Like, for instance, the Veelas.  If I'd been Harry, or at least tasked
> with taking the DEs out of commission, I'd have wanted to find a way
> to deploy some Veelas and get them dancing when Lord V comes to
> Hogwarts looking for trouble.  Since it's clearly stated in GoF that
> women are immune, I'd just have the guys waiting back in the castle
> while Hermione and the witches were dealing with the hypnotized male
> DEs.
>
> If this worked, it'd rob Lord V of all of his followers save only
> Bella, and cut the fight down considerably.  "Supreme excellence in
> war lies in achieving victory without fighting," as Sun Tzu says.
>
>
> luirhys: Do you really think that moldy would be affected by veelas?
> LOL. What a great mental image.
>

I didn't think that it would...but with just him and Bella against the  
DA and its allies, the fight would have been a lot easier.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  8 16:45:59 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 16:45:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hukedv+b1fl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huls47+kjq7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189300



> > Potioncat:
> > Hagrid often gets things wrong; even so I've found his statement confusing. Perhaps he was actually being discrete in not mentioning Snape. I know we're told Snape applies every year. Does anyone remember where we learn that?and from which character? 
> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> I know it is mentioned several times.  <SNIP canon> Not sure where it says he applied every year, but I do remember that statement was made
> 

Alla:

I thought Snape himself admits it to Umbridge, but I do not have OOP near by to check.




From ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun  8 17:19:42 2010
From: ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net (Sheila Douglas)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 12:19:42 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
References: <huls47+kjq7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4C0E7BAE.000071.01768@SHEILA-PC>

No: HPFGUIDX 189301

>> > Potioncat:
>> > <snip> I know we're told Snape applies every year. Does
anyone remember where we learn that?and from which character?
>>
>> Nikkalmati:
>> I know it is mentioned several times. <SNIP canon> Not sure
where it says he applied every year, but I do remember that
>> statement was made

>Alla:
>I thought Snape himself admits it to Umbridge, but I do not
have OOP nearby to check.


sile_dubhghlase:
I hope I'm doing this right:
Alla is correct. Snape does admit it to Umbridge in OotP,
Chapter 17 Educational Decree Number Twenty-four, page 363
(Scholastic) or page 323 (Bloomsbury). Umbridge is doing her
High Inquisitor thing when she asks him how long he'd been
teaching (14 years), and whether he'd applied for the Defence
Against the Dark Arts post, which he confirmed. Then when she
asked if he was unsuccessful, he curled his lip and said,
"Obviously."

In SS/PS, Chapter 7 The Sorting Hat, page 126 (Scholastic) or
page 94 (Bloomsbury), after Harry is sorted, his scar burns.
He asks Percy who the teacher is talking to Professor Quirrell.
Percy identifies him as Professor Snape, who teaches Potions.
Percy goes on to say that Snape doesn't want to teach Potions
and that "...everyone knows he's after Quirrell's job. Knows
an awful lot about the Dark Arts, Snape."






From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Wed Jun  9 02:31:28 2010
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 02:31:28 -0000
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikfT7nl6m6q4N4r9JYkzb47A7PFLh8mdK6BwZKE@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <humue0+a0bq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189302



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Aleta Turner <aletamosquito at ...> wrote:
>
> Regarding boys in girls' dorms and vice versa: I can't remember right
> off which book it is (5th perhaps?) but Ron tries to go see Hermione
> in her dorm room and the stairs instantly turn into a steep incline
> that slides him back to the common room. He's indignant about that,
> because Hermione has been to the boys' room, and Hermione makes a
> remark that apparently the founders trusted girls more.
> 
> Aleta
> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~
> "Beauty is before me, and beauty is behind me, above me and below me
> hovers the beautiful... In beauty it is begun. In beauty, it is
> ended."
> -Navaho

Marianne:

I believe it was in the OOTP.  It was one of Umbridge's new decrees about no more than two students together at a time.  Ron runs to tell Hermione and that's when the stairs turn.

I think that's the right thing.  I can't find it in my book right off the bat.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Marianne
>





From ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun  9 02:49:05 2010
From: ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net (Sheila Douglas)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 21:49:05 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
References: <humue0+a0bq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4C0F0121.000083.01768@SHEILA-PC>

No: HPFGUIDX 189303

> Aleta:
> Regarding boys in girls' dorms and vice versa: I can't remember
> right off which book it is (5th perhaps?) but Ron tries to go
> see Hermione in her dorm room and the stairs instantly turn
> into a steep incline that slides him back to the common room.
<SNIP>

Marianne:
I believe it was in the OOTP. It was one of Umbridge's new decrees
about no more than two students together at a time. Ron runs to
tell Hermione and that's when the stairs turn.
<SNIP>

sile_dubhghlase:
Marianne is correct. In OotP, Chapter 17 Educational Decree
Number Twenty-four, pages 351-53 (Scholastic) or pages 313-15
(Bloomsbury), the decree came out after the initial meeting
of what would become the DA at the Hog's Head. ED24 prohibited
student organizations not known to or sanctioned by the High
Inquisitor. Ron and Harry had been reading about it and Ron,
wondering if Hermione was aware of it, decided they should
tell her. He dashed up the stairs toward the girls' dorms
and set off an alarm. The staircase turned into a slide,
prohibiting Ron from reaching his destination.



From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  9 10:19:06 2010
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Joey)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:19:06 -0000
Subject: Teen Pregnancy
In-Reply-To: <huji08+rq9g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hunpqq+vthb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189304

<snip> 

Magpie:
> Which is so bizarre given the behavior of girls in the WW. Every single example of too-aggressive sexual aggression comes from girls in canon.
Magpie:
> Of course once I wrote that I could think of at least one male version with the Bloody Baron killing the Grey Lady I think because he couldn't have her or something? But when it comes to going after guys sexually, what we see in canon is almost all female to male.
<snip>

Joey:
Actually, I thought I'd add another dimension to this which could play a part. At least in the Muggle world at the time of the founding of Hogwarts the attitude to sex was *very* different. Now obviously some things are different in the Wizarding World - I doubt two women could've played any part in founding a school in the Muggle world at this time but how have attitudes changed in the wizarding world? It does seem to be in some sort of stasis comparative to the Muggle world but surely something has changed in 1000 years?




From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  9 10:28:24 2010
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Joey)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:28:24 -0000
Subject: Things Harry could have done
In-Reply-To: <20100607230647.k5zcisympcsskssc@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <hunqc8+gtp2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189305

<snip> 
>  Eric:
> Like, for instance, the Veelas.  If I'd been Harry, or at least tasked with taking the DEs out of commission, I'd have wanted to find a way to deploy some Veelas and get them dancing when Lord V comes to
Hogwarts looking for trouble. Since it's clearly stated in GoF that
women are immune, I'd just have the guys waiting back in the castle
while Hermione and the witches were dealing with the hypnotized male
DEs.

Joey:
Trouble is - aren't Veelas counted as dark creatures? Also, logistics - I've never heard of any in Britain, they're hinted as mostly being Eastern European (though of course the Delacours are French).




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Jun  9 14:56:00 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:56:00 -0000
Subject: Things Harry could have done
In-Reply-To: <20100607192625.5j8j5qk2ogkc0ooo@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <huoa20+6e0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189306


Eric:
>
> I was kind of disappointed that a lot of stuff that came up in the  
> earlier books wasn't used again.
> 
> Like, for instance, the Veelas.

Pippin:
Although some have seen the "International Magical Cooperation" of GoF as an abandoned plotline, it is tied thematically to the Magical Brotherhood of OOP and the the Sorting Hat's pleas for House Unity in OOP and HBP, all idealistic or utopian visions of what the wizarding world might be. And it seems that  the reason those visions have not come to pass has as much to do with   the inflated assumptions of benevolent superiority held by the wizards themselves, Gryffindors not the least, as it does with the outright ill-will that those assumptions have generated.

JKR was all along setting up a situation where Harry must choose either to abandon the people he loved to torment and death or to face them himself, so  the possibility  of help from other countries or races of magical beings, or the seemingly hostile Slytherins had to seem remote. But I wonder, if Harry had known that Slughorn was on his way back with an army of reinforcements, would he still have gone into the forest?

In any case most of the vast audience of World Cup attendees did not react as drastically as Ron, Harry and the referee. There were at least two DE's in the top box, Lucius Malfoy and the invisible Barty Jr, and neither of them lost their wits.

Pippin





From technomad at intergate.com  Wed Jun  9 21:30:38 2010
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 16:30:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things Harry could have done
In-Reply-To: <hunqc8+gtp2@eGroups.com>
References: <hunqc8+gtp2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20100609163038.y2qbh7zqiskoko8k@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189307

Quoting Joey <joeydebs at yahoo.com>:

> <snip>
>>  Eric:
>> Like, for instance, the Veelas.  If I'd been Harry, or at least   
>> tasked with taking the DEs out of commission, I'd have wanted to   
>> find a way to deploy some Veelas and get them dancing when Lord V   
>> comes to
> Hogwarts looking for trouble. Since it's clearly stated in GoF that
> women are immune, I'd just have the guys waiting back in the castle
> while Hermione and the witches were dealing with the hypnotized male
> DEs.
>
> Joey:
> Trouble is - aren't Veelas counted as dark creatures? Also,   
> logistics - I've never heard of any in Britain, they're hinted as   
> mostly being Eastern European (though of course the Delacours are   
> French).

I don't remember anywhere where Veelas were listed as specifically  
Dark.  Also, "Dark" =/= "allied with Voldemort"---the Blacks started  
thinking that Lord Thingy was getting a little out of hand, at least  
according to Sirius.

If Veelas were Dark Creatures, would Fleur have been eligible for the  
Triwizard Tournament?  I'd think that Karkaroff, to name one, would  
have been howling about it.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jun 10 20:36:10 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:36:10 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huribq+tuve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189308



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:


> 2. I know that Hagrid tells Harry that Lockhart was the only applicant for the job, but still why do you think Dumbledore hired him? Does it mean that Snape applying every year was after all a lie? If it was a lie, why Dumbledore did not teach DADA himself, instead of hiring incompetent imbecile whom I consider Gilderoy to be?
> 

Hi, AmanitaMuscaria here -

I wonder, looking at various hints in the books, whether the classes are considered as anything more than make-work. The whole purpose of the school appears to me to be about socialising into the wizarding world, not teaching. Yes, there is the basic wand-waving and learning about magical ingredients, beasts, and beings, but classwork counts for naught in OWLS and NEWTS, and what, apart from the legend of the Chamber of Secrets, did any of the students learn in Professor Binns' class? If students can be absent from classes for months, how essential are those classes? 
Having useless DADA teachers may be Dumbledore's ploy to get Harry to take responsibility for his own education, perhaps.
But I completely agree that DD's refusal to let SS teach DADA every yearr was a little charade for Voldemort's benefit. What I'm undecided about is whether it was to make Voldy believe that DD didn't know there was a curse on the position, or merely that DD didn't trust SS, so SS could explain any 'gaps' in his spying for Voldemort by pointing out that Dumbledore still didn't trust SS completely.
And Lockhart, after all, is a valuable lesson for the children to experience, though whether they needed a full year of him is debatable.

Thanks for the questions; I feel the need to come out of lurkdom!

AM




From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jun 10 21:47:02 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:47:02 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <hukbp7+jskh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hurmgm+10b4q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189309


CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
>

> I have always been a bit confused about what Dementors feed upon.  Happy thoughts drive them away, but they feed on sadness and make it spread?  Riddle does seem more like a Horcrux which identifies your weak points and magnifies your fears (rather than sadness).  How dark could Ginny's secrets have been at that age?

AmanitaMuscaria now - I suspect it's not the intrinsic darkness of the secrets, but the force of the emotion tied to the secret, and that could have been very strong and dark, indeed, at Ginny's age. 
I'd love to have seen Lockhart confronted by a Dementor; my suspicion is, it would have no effect, as Lockhart appears to be without guilt. 


> > 
> > 6. Several times Riddle's expression is described as "hungry." Young
> > Severus's expression was described the same way in DH. What do you make of this?
 

AM now, Q6 & 7 - Tom is described as having a 'greedy' expression in the orphanage scene, but I must say Severus's 'hungry' expression when he looks at Lily in the playground gave me a chill. I can't remember Harry being described thus, except at the Dursleys, when he was literally hungry. So, Tom's greedy for power, Severus's hungry for acceptance, and Harry? 
 
> > 
> > 7. Riddle comments on how similar he and Harry are. We can make several
> > comparisons: Harry and Tom; Severus and Tom; Severus and Harry. What is JKR up
> > to with this Trio?
> 

> Nikkalmati
> > 
> > 8. What questions do you have?
> > 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> Tom talks about Hagrid keeping werewolf cubs under his bed.  What does that mean?  Werewolves are humans who, ike Lupin, have human children, such as, Teddy.  Their children do not transform and they would be human most of the time in any case.  What was JKR thinking?
> 
> Nikkalmati
> >

AM now - Oh, this made me laugh!
Seriously, either JKR didn't think at all, or there's a sort of sliding scale of werewolfishness; Fenrir, after all, is not entirely human even when the moon is new, at least to me. Perhaps some werewolves never have a human phase? I think I'm being charitable though, and this is on a par with the varying Hogwarts population and other Flints.

AM






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun 10 23:19:16 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:19:16 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <hurmgm+10b4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hurrtk+2v93@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189310

 Nikkalmati:
> > Tom talks about Hagrid keeping werewolf cubs under his bed.  What does that mean?  Werewolves are humans who, ike Lupin, have human children, such as, Teddy.  Their children do not transform and they would be human most of the time in any case.  What was JKR thinking?

> 
> AM now - Oh, this made me laugh!
> Seriously, either JKR didn't think at all, or there's a sort of sliding scale of werewolfishness; Fenrir, after all, is not entirely human even when the moon is new, at least to me. Perhaps some werewolves never have a human phase? I think I'm being charitable though, and this is on a par with the varying Hogwarts population and other Flints.


Pippin:
JKR explained this one back in October of 2000.

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-livechat-barnesnoble.html

blaise_42 asks: In Chamber of Secrets, Hagrid is supposed to have raised werewolf cubs under his bed. Are these the same kind of werewolves as Professor Lupin? 
jkrowling_bn: no... Riddle was telling lies about Hagrid, just slandering him. 

****
I think JKR's explanation is plausible, since it fits with the kinds of outrageous slander the DE's will later spread about Muggleborns -- that they have stolen their magic from purebloods, for example. 


Pippin




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Jun 11 03:40:15 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 03:40:15 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <hurrtk+2v93@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <husb6v+13e8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189311



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
>  Nikkalmati:
> > > Tom talks about Hagrid keeping werewolf cubs under his bed.  What does that mean?  Werewolves are humans who, ike Lupin, have human children, such as, Teddy.  Their children do not transform and they would be human most of the time in any case.  What was JKR thinking?
> 
> > 
> > AM now - Oh, this made me laugh!
> > Seriously, either JKR didn't think at all, or there's a sort of sliding scale of werewolfishness; Fenrir, after all, is not entirely human even when the moon is new, at least to me. Perhaps some werewolves never have a human phase? I think I'm being charitable though, and this is on a par with the varying Hogwarts population and other Flints.
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> JKR explained this one back in October of 2000.
> 
> http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-livechat-barnesnoble.html
> 
> blaise_42 asks: In Chamber of Secrets, Hagrid is supposed to have raised werewolf cubs under his bed. Are these the same kind of werewolves as Professor Lupin? 
> jkrowling_bn: no... Riddle was telling lies about Hagrid, just slandering him. 
> 
> ****
> I think JKR's explanation is plausible, since it fits with the kinds of outrageous slander the DE's will later spread about Muggleborns -- that they have stolen their magic from purebloods, for example. 
> 
> 
> Pippin
>
Nikkalmati

No,I think JKR was just trying to cover up her own slip.  If Riddle was saying bad things about Hagrid to Harry, it still would have to be something possible.  A foolish or stupid person would still have to be able to keep werewolf cubs or the hearer would just say "that's ridiculous".

Nikkalmati




From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jun 11 07:05:55 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 07:05:55 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <husb6v+13e8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <husn8j+f4r9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189312



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth@> wrote:
> >
> >  Nikkalmati:
> > > > Tom talks about Hagrid keeping werewolf cubs under his bed.  What does that mean?  Werewolves are humans who, ike Lupin, have human children, such as, Teddy.  Their children do not transform and they would be human most of the time in any case.  What was JKR thinking?
> > 
> > > 
> > > AM now - Oh, this made me laugh!
> > > Seriously, either JKR didn't think at all, or there's a sort of sliding scale of werewolfishness; Fenrir, after all, is not entirely human even when the moon is new, at least to me. Perhaps some werewolves never have a human phase? I think I'm being charitable though, and this is on a par with the varying Hogwarts population and other Flints.
> > 
> > 
> > Pippin:
> > JKR explained this one back in October of 2000.
> > 
> > http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-livechat-barnesnoble.html
> > 
> > blaise_42 asks: In Chamber of Secrets, Hagrid is supposed to have raised werewolf cubs under his bed. Are these the same kind of werewolves as Professor Lupin? 
> > jkrowling_bn: no... Riddle was telling lies about Hagrid, just slandering him. 
> > 
> > ****
> > I think JKR's explanation is plausible, since it fits with the kinds of outrageous slander the DE's will later spread about Muggleborns -- that they have stolen their magic from purebloods, for example. 
> > 
> > 
> > Pippin
> >
> Nikkalmati
> 
> No,I think JKR was just trying to cover up her own slip.  If Riddle was saying bad things about Hagrid to Harry, it still would have to be something possible.  A foolish or stupid person would still have to be able to keep werewolf cubs or the hearer would just say "that's ridiculous".
> 
> Nikkalmati
>
AM now - Oh, I don't know; there's a great blindness, an unwillingness to see in the Wizarding world that Tom would have siezed upon. He does, after all, ask Draco, "And will you babysit the cubs?" in the first chapter of DH. The whole beast/being debate is interesting, and how many would have met, or known they'd met a werewolf? I don't suppose werewolves would have talked about their 'affliction' much, so  would many know the statement was wrong? 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jun 11 12:26:09 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:26:09 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <4C0E7BAE.000071.01768@SHEILA-PC>
Message-ID: <huta11+39qm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189313


> sile_dubhghlase:
> I hope I'm doing this right:

Potioncat:
Yes, done very well indeed.


sile_dubhghlase
> In SS/PS, Chapter 7 The Sorting Hat, page 126 (Scholastic) or
> page 94 (Bloomsbury), after Harry is sorted, his scar burns.
> He asks Percy who the teacher is talking to Professor Quirrell.
> Percy identifies him as Professor Snape, who teaches Potions.
> Percy goes on to say that Snape doesn't want to teach Potions
> and that "...everyone knows he's after Quirrell's job. Knows
> an awful lot about the Dark Arts, Snape."

Potioncat:
I'd like to know what Percy thinks of Snape. He presents this information in a matter of fact way. The wording is very clever on JKR's part. Using Dark Arts rather than Defense against the Dark Arts gives Snape's knowledge a sinister slant. It's difficult to know if Percy intended Dart Arts or DADA because the clas itself is sometimes referred to in the shorted form of Dark Arts. 

It will also be reinforced later by Sirius in his comment about Snape's skills when he arrived at Hogwarts 





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Jun 11 16:04:22 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:04:22 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <husn8j+f4r9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hutmq6+r3r1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189314


> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > No,I think JKR was just trying to cover up her own slip.  If Riddle was saying bad things about Hagrid to Harry, it still would have to be something possible.  A foolish or stupid person would still have to be able to keep werewolf cubs or the hearer would just say "that's ridiculous".
> > 
> > Nikkalmati
> >
> AM now - Oh, I don't know; there's a great blindness, an unwillingness to see in the Wizarding world that Tom would have siezed upon. He does, after all, ask Draco, "And will you babysit the cubs?" in the first chapter of DH. The whole beast/being debate is interesting, and how many would have met, or known they'd met a werewolf? I don't suppose werewolves would have talked about their 'affliction' much, so  would many know the statement was wrong?
>

Pippin:

If Riddle ever actually spread that rumour about Hagrid, it was probably among other students who might believe it even if their professors wouldn't. 

But Tom is a compulsive liar and so will lie even when he doesn't need to.   It is  likely a lie twice over, both a lie that werewolves have cubs and that Hagrid was ever suspected of keeping them. What does it matter? He's talking to twelve year old Harry, who is going to be killed as soon as Riddle is finished questioning him.

 Draco is hardly in a position to say, "Nonsense, Master, werewolves don't have cubs." It is like telling Lucius that the rest of the Slytherins have joined him. Lucius may already know  that isn't true, but Voldemort doesn't care what Lucius thinks any more. 


Pippin




From bart at moosewise.com  Fri Jun 11 16:28:01 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:28:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter
 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <hutmq6+r3r1@eGroups.com>
References: <hutmq6+r3r1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4C126411.3090104@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189315

On 6/11/2010 12:04 PM, pippin_999 wrote:
> But Tom is a compulsive liar and so will lie even when he doesn't need to.   It is  likely a lie twice over, both a lie that werewolves have cubs and that Hagrid was ever suspected of keeping them. What does it matter? He's talking to twelve year old Harry, who is going to be killed as soon as Riddle is finished questioning him.
>    

     Well, remember that we don't know where werewolves came from in the 
first place, or whether there might be wolves who periodically become 
humans, or what DOES happen when werewolves mate under the full moon.

     Bart




From ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jun 11 18:05:31 2010
From: ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net (Sheila Douglas)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:05:31 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
References: <huta11+39qm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4C127AEB.000039.05392@SHEILA-PC>

No: HPFGUIDX 189316




> sile_dubhghlase:
> I hope I'm doing this right:

Potioncat:
Yes, done very well indeed.
<Snip>

Potioncat:
I'd like to know what Percy thinks of Snape. He presents this information in
a matter of fact way. The wording is very clever on JKR's part. Using Dark
Arts rather than Defense against the Dark Arts gives Snape's knowledge a
sinister slant. It's difficult to know if Percy intended Dart Arts or DADA
because the clas itself is sometimes referred to in the shorted form of Dark
Arts.

It will also be reinforced later by Sirius in his comment about Snape's
skills when he arrived at Hogwarts

sile_dubhghlase:
I think Percy respects him as a Hogwarts teacher, but I don't think Percy's
blind to Snape's prejudices, such as his cruelty to the Gryffindors, his
bias for his Slytherins, or his overall nasty demeanor. As for his
suspicions about Snape's dark leanings, past or present, I doubt Percy has
an opinion one way or the other because it would never occur to him that
anyone that sinister would ever be allowed to teach at Hogwarts. I think
Percy might be in awe of Snape's knowledge of the Dark Arts in a purely
academic sense, but that's about it.
It wouldn't surprise me that Sirius would make some kind of snide comment
about Snape's DADA skills. In OotP Chapter 28, Snape's Worst Memory, pages
641-44 (Scholastic) or pages 564-67 (Bloomsbury), we find Severus and the
Marauders engaged in the written portion of their Defense Against the Dark
Arts OWL. When Flitwick calls the time and collects the papers, Snape's the
first one out of the hall, but he lingers in the shadows to hear what James
Potter and his friends have to say about it. They're obviously aware that
Snape's listening in because they're tossing the answers to the questions
around like they're child's play, knowing DADA is a subject Snape struggles
with.
We have another clue about Snapes DADA skills, or lack thereof, in PoA
Chapter 9, Grim Defeat, pages 172 (Scholastic) or page 129 (Bloomsbury),
Snape has to take over Lupin's DADA classes for a few days. Remus has
already taught them about Kappas, Red Caps, and Grindylows. Snape criticizes
Lupin's grading of a paper about Kappas as he moves up and down the aisles.
Very poorly explained...That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found
in Mongolia...Professor Lupin gave this an eight out of ten? I wouldn't have
given it a three..." In reality, the Kappa is a Japanese water-demon, MOM
Classification XXXX, according to "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them,"
page 23.
In conclusion, I'd have to say that Snape may know a lot of dark MAGIC, but
that's about it. He's not qualified to teach DADA at all, at least as the
curriculum stood at that time. Overall, I don't believe Snape is qualified
to teach anything, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 11 19:03:55 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 19:03:55 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <4C127AEB.000039.05392@SHEILA-PC>
Message-ID: <huu1ar+5ltp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189317





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sheila Douglas" <ghost_chicken at ...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> In conclusion, I'd have to say that Snape may know a lot of dark MAGIC, but
> that's about it. He's not qualified to teach DADA at all, at least as the
> curriculum stood at that time. Overall, I don't believe Snape is qualified
> to teach anything, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children.

Alla:
Welcome to the group. You are not getting any argument from me, as some people will tell you I have no love lost for Snape or his teaching skills. Please believe me I hate Snape with passion and consider him disgusting abuser of children. So what I am going to say is not because I love the character, quite the contrary. It is because I love to hate him. Yep still do, after all these years.

I agree that he is not qualified to teach DADA or anything for that matter, however I think he *knows* DADA very well, based on his lesson in HBP if nothing else. Although I bet he was gritting his teeth and disagreed with Harry's  method of defending the Dementor on purpose lol. I think he is qualified to be DADA I don't know? Researcher? Something, just please do not let him come close to kids, especially those kids who had a misfortune to have a parent who took a girl from Snape AND look like that parent.

JMO of course,

Alla





From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 11 08:20:21 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 01:20:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <husn8j+f4r9@eGroups.com>
References: <husn8j+f4r9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <204757.30133.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189318


> Nikkalmati
> 
> No,I think JKR was just trying to cover up her own slip.  If Riddle was saying bad things about Hagrid to Harry, it still would have to be something possible.  A foolish or stupid person would still have to be able to keep werewolf cubs or the hearer would just say "that's ridiculous".
> 
>

luirhys: I agree. There is so much bias against werewolves that it is possible that rumors like this would have been believed. Go back to PoA and think back on Ron's reaction when he first finds out about Lupin, and then the parents of the students.. There would only be a marginally small percentage of the community that would know that werewolves are  dangerous ONLY when there is a full moon. 

OR- its a stretch though- might werecubs be what baby/child werewolves are called? Adult werewolves are shunned by society, maybe there are child werewolves abandoned by parents. Although remember, these are just rumours that Riddle are spreading. Personally, I think werewolves should still be classified as beings as opposed to beast- they only turn into one, once a month.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jun 12 03:48:56 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 03:48:56 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <huu1ar+5ltp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huv038+h2f0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189319


> 
> Alla:

> 
> I agree that he is not qualified to teach DADA or anything for that matter, however I think he *knows* DADA very well, based on his lesson in HBP if nothing else. Although I bet he was gritting his teeth and disagreed with Harry's  method of defending the Dementor on purpose lol. I think he is qualified to be DADA I don't know? Researcher? Something, just please do not let him come close to kids, especially those kids who had a misfortune to have a parent who took a girl from Snape AND look like that parent.
> 

Potioncat:
I also think Snape knows DADA, and Dark Arts and cures?/treatments? for Dark injuries very well. He may not be so well versed on Dark Creatures (kappas, three headed dogs).

I would like to know if Snape ever wanted to teach. What do you think? I mean, I can argue it both ways, but I'm really not sure. 

Research or Healer would fit him I think.

We know Harry didn't agree with Snape about Defense against dementors, but do we know that Harry challenged Snape?

We also don't know what Snape taught and whether he was really simply avoiding teaching the Protonus charm. He needed his Patronus to be secret.




From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jun 12 05:41:09 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 05:41:09 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <huv038+h2f0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <huv6ll+krg1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189320



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > 
> > Alla:
> 
> > 
> > I agree that he is not qualified to teach DADA or anything for that matter, however I think he *knows* DADA very well, based on his lesson in HBP if nothing else. 
snip
> 
> Potioncat:
> I also think Snape knows DADA, and Dark Arts and cures?/treatments? for Dark injuries very well. He may not be so well versed on Dark Creatures (kappas, three headed dogs).
> 
> I would like to know if Snape ever wanted to teach. What do you think? I mean, I can argue it both ways, but I'm really not sure. 
> 
> Research or Healer would fit him I think.
> 
> We know Harry didn't agree with Snape about Defense against dementors, but do we know that Harry challenged Snape?
> 
> We also don't know what Snape taught and whether he was really simply avoiding teaching the Protonus charm. He needed his Patronus to be secret.
>
AM: If JKR is telling the truth, and there are no further education establishments beyond Hogwarts, then teachers just teach, without any further instruction. So Harry or Ron or Lavender could, if someone hired them, just begin to take a class after leaving school. Then again, a few of my own teachers didn't seem to have learnt a lot from teaching instruction!
I don't know whether the thing with Kappas is meant to demonstrate Snape's ignorance, his arrogance, or perhaps that books aren't always right (as his annotations of his Potions book showed), but I'd love to know his alternative to dealing with Dementors. I don't suppose a doe would have gone down a storm in DE circles. I wonder what Lucius's Patronus would be, or Lord V's, if they had them ...  




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Jun 12 17:55:30 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 12 Jun 2010 17:55:30 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/13/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1276365330.17.4805.m4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189321

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 13, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
(The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2010 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20100612/90a0fd5e/attachment.html>

From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 12 19:06:05 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 19:06:05 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <huv038+h2f0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv0lqt+tvf9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189322

> Potioncat:
> I also think Snape knows DADA, and Dark Arts and cures?/treatments? for Dark injuries very well. He may not be so well versed on Dark Creatures (kappas, three headed dogs).
> 
> I would like to know if Snape ever wanted to teach. What do you think? I mean, I can argue it both ways, but I'm really not sure. 
> 
> Research or Healer would fit him I think.
> 
> We know Harry didn't agree with Snape about Defense against dementors, but do we know that Harry challenged Snape?
> 
> We also don't know what Snape taught and whether he was really simply avoiding teaching the Protonus charm. He needed his Patronus to be secret.
>


Alla:

Did Snape want to teach? Oh for a while I thought that maybe he would not mind teaching advanced students seminar, that is before he started teaching DADA that is. We all know that one subject where Harry is meant to be brilliant is DADA. And not just because JKR said so, first and foremost I see it in canon and did Snape praise him once?

Yes, Harry talked back at that lesson (yay)no I still think that Harry should have gotten his well deserved dues for the method of defending the Dementors even if it is different from what Snape knows and able to do.

What I would have been really interested in seeing is how Snape would have graded Harry and Hermione and other Gryffindors at the end of the year.

So, of course I still do not really know if he wanted to teach since we are not in his head, but I would go out on a limb and say no way, not even his precious Slytherins. Speculating mostly of course based on his behavior.

I am not sure I understand what you mean about Harry challenging Snape? To me he challenged him because he dared to disagree and why would Snape needed to show his Patronus if he would have agreed with Harry?

As an aside, I am sure we talked about it before, but I can't help but love how brilliant some of JKR's clues were about some things including Snape's loyalties. Contrary to Fake!Moody he never demonstrates dark curses on spiders or anybody else, he just shows pictures.

JMO,

Alla




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jun 13 17:01:55 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Jun 2010 17:01:55 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/13/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1276448515.491.16293.m14@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189323

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 13, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2010 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20100613/0a8046d5/attachment.html>

From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 14 07:10:14 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 07:10:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <huv038+h2f0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv4kkm+1q0p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189324

> Potioncat:
[snip] 
> I would like to know if Snape ever wanted to teach. What do you think? I mean, I can argue it both ways, but I'm really not sure. 
[snip] 

Joey:

I don't think he *wanted* to teach - DD sort of gave Snape no option after unfurling the you-take-care-of-Lily's-son plan to Snape. Teaching at Hogwarts would be the easiest way to take care of Harry which is Snape chose to do that, I feel. Teaching does not seem to be Snape's forte in terms of his attitude. Maybe that is why he could not help showing partiality to Slytherins and being quite objectionable with students like Neville and Hermione. Also, given his aloof or vexed personality, his eagerness that Slytherin should win the Quidditch cup and him joining them to watch matches sounds quite surprising to me (well, even Minerva comes across as surprising in that context). 

> Potioncat:
> Research or Healer would fit him I think.

Joey:
Research, yes, sure. Healer, um, *maybe* not. I can imagine him doing a great job diagnosing problems in patients and also, performing skillful cures. His ability to control his emotions also will guard him from getting emotionaly involved with patients. Yet I feel a Healer should be smiling and gentle with the patients to enable their speedy recovery and I'm finding it tough to imagine Snape being smiling and gentle. :-) And yes, I do remember him being sort of okay with Slytherins but that would not suffice for a Healer, I think. :-)

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jun 14 11:53:36 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:53:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hv4kkm+1q0p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv5580+7lhd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189325


> 
> Joey:
> 
> I don't think he *wanted* to teach - DD sort of gave Snape no option after unfurling the you-take-care-of-Lily's-son plan to Snape. Teaching at Hogwarts would be the easiest way to take care of Harry which is Snape chose to do that, I feel. 

Potioncat:
Well, we know he was very interested in doing well in exams and was like Hermione in that he wanted to go over the test after taking it. I know being studious doesn't mean one wants to teach--but it shows an interest in academia.

I think he was pursing a position before it was given to him. How else could he explain the job to LV? "Hey boss, Dumbledore just offered me a job out of the blue?" Although, I think LV had set him the task of getting a position--I think LV wanted someone at Hogwarts. And if that's the case, it still doesn't tell us if Snape wanted to teach.

He doesn't seem to enjoy it, and he doesnt' seem to like the students, but he does take pride in his "higher than average pass rate" on the OWLs.

My son's history teacher made a similar speech about the standard of learning test--that she expected a high pass rate. Everyone passed, 10 excelled and of the 10 five made 100%. No, she didn't call anyone a dunderhead, nor behave like Snape in any way--except for lots of homework.



> Joey:
> Research, yes, sure. Healer, um, *maybe* not. I can imagine him doing a great job diagnosing problems in patients and also, performing skillful cures. His ability to control his emotions also will guard him from getting emotionaly involved with patients. Yet I feel a Healer should be smiling and gentle with the patients to enable their speedy recovery and I'm finding it tough to imagine Snape being smiling and gentle. :-) And yes, I do remember him being sort of okay with Slytherins but that would not suffice for a Healer, I think. :-)

Potioncat:
We saw him healing DD and Draco. We know he healed what's-her-name of the necklace curse and made the mandrake potion in CoS. He also offered the antidote to the swelling draft in class in CoS and that went smoothly for all students.

So, Ok, He's no Marcus Welby--Let's say his style would be more like House.

Potioncat.....what do you mean, "Who's Marcus Welby?"




From no.limberger at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 15:24:19 2010
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 08:24:19 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 
	18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <4C0D2FA7.9070007@moosewise.com>
References: <hu4i4s+mg4j@eGroups.com>
	<AANLkTil5weSV66YhJ8Pvo31JSH6VYR9E3XjL1-TL2yHm@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C06FB49.20908@moosewise.com>
	<AANLkTimo_OTupkh7jxnp1enw4uSr4vgx_12nQDgR6ZHw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C0D2FA7.9070007@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWlMq5Jo3kuXpOYUEEEJ3vjMjkv4eXvWxkBLwf@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189326

>No.Limberger responds:
>We can speculate that the spell to create a horcrux was probably only
>intended to be used with an inanimate object. Thus, when LV tried to
>kill Harry, it was probably Lily's ancient magic combining with the fact
>that LV's soul was already weakened and primed for splitting that
>allowed the unintentional horcrux creation to occur. LV never knew
>that Harry was a horcrux, and Harry didn't have to be completely
>destroyed in order for the horcrux to be removed. This was an
>unexpected consequence.

> Bart wrote:
>Well, this IS getting into the realm of hair splitting. And it is
>true that JKR never really fully defined a horcrux; we can only deduce
>from the "behavior" of the other horcruxes. And, for example, we can't
>know for sure how much Morty's connection with Naggy had to do with
>Naggy being a Horcrux, and how much being his natural affinity to
>snakes. Certainly, Morty's inability to get into Harry's head without so
>much pain as to make it not worth his while (note that, in OOP, Morty
>uses Harry's entree into HIS mind to manipulate Harry, rather than the
>other way around).

No.Limberger responds:
I completely agree in that my idea is highly speculative. I had forgotten
about Nagini being a horcrux, so my initial concept that a horcrux
was intended to be an inanimate object wasn't correct. However,
what is clear is that using an inanimate object would likely be far
more stable given both its longevity and lack of a living soul/mind
itself.

>Bart wrote:
>The Prophecy combined with the established canon (third person
>accounts, as opposed to quotes, unless the material quoted is given as
>objective rather than speculation, even if it's DD's speculation) still
>implies that the Mortysoul in Harry is different than that in the other
>horcruxes. It is implied that there is as much Mortysoul in Harry as
>there is in Morty (which isn't much). Which means that if Harry killed
>Morty without destroying his own piece of Mortysoul, he might end up
>becoming the "New Morty" himself.

No.Limberger responds:
You bring up an interesting point here. If each time that a horcrux
is created the soul is split 50/50, this suggests that each time a
horcrux is created, it contains only half as much soul as the
the preceding one. This means that in the progression of the
7 horcruxes being created by LV, they would each contain this
much of his soul: 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64 and 1/128. Thus,
each time a new one is created, the soul itself becomes
increasingly less stable and less influential. We could speculate
that the reason why Harry was able to not be influenced that much
by the horcrux inside of himself was because of how little the
amount of soul from LV he contained. It also helps to explain,
imho, why LV's soul accidentally split when attempting to kill
Harry when Harry was 1 year old.

>Bart wrote:
>In any case, the point is that, from the point of view of a horcrux
>being a piece of a wizard's soul stored outside the wizard, then yes,
>Harry is a horcrux. But from the "behavior" we have observed from the
>diary, the ring, and Naggy (we don't really see anything from the cup or
>the diadem), it does not look like Harry is the same kind of horcrux as
>the rest.

No.Limberger responds:
I agree. Not only may Harry only have contained as little as 1/128 of
LV's soul, Harry was also complete, sentient being in his own right.
Harry was fully able to make his own decisions, beginning with
his desire to be in Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. Harry remained
loyal to Dumbledore, his friends and his family. He always despised
LV. While the diary, for example, was able to have a lot of influence
over Ginny, LV's influence over Harry was minimal. The diary never
recognized that Harry was, himself, a horcrux. And, once Harry
understood what he was, he knew what he had to do and was
willing to sacrifice himself to destroy that tiny part of LV's soul within
himself in order to destroy LV permanently.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Jun 15 02:49:31 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 02:49:31 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hv0lqt+tvf9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv6pnr+o2dm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189327



> > Potioncat:
> > I also think Snape knows DADA, and Dark Arts and cures?/treatments? for Dark injuries very well. He may not be so well versed on Dark Creatures (kappas, three headed dogs).
> > 
> > I would like to know if Snape ever wanted to teach. What do you think? I mean, I can argue it both ways, but I'm really not sure. 
> > 
> > Research or Healer would fit him I think.
> > 
> > We know Harry didn't agree with Snape about Defense against dementors, but do we know that Harry challenged Snape?
> > 
> > We also don't know what Snape taught and whether he was really simply avoiding teaching the Protonus charm. He needed his Patronus to be secret.
> >
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Did Snape want to teach? Oh for a while I thought that maybe he would not mind teaching advanced students seminar, that is before he started teaching DADA that is. We all know that one subject where Harry is meant to be brilliant is DADA. And not just because JKR said so, first and foremost I see it in canon and did Snape praise him once?
> 
> Yes, Harry talked back at that lesson (yay)no I still think that Harry should have gotten his well deserved dues for the method of defending the Dementors even if it is different from what Snape knows and able to do.
> 
> What I would have been really interested in seeing is how Snape would have graded Harry and Hermione and other Gryffindors at the end of the year.
> 
> So, of course I still do not really know if he wanted to teach since we are not in his head, but I would go out on a limb and say no way, not even his precious Slytherins. Speculating mostly of course based on his behavior.
> 
> I am not sure I understand what you mean about Harry challenging Snape? To me he challenged him because he dared to disagree and why would Snape needed to show his Patronus if he would have agreed with Harry?
> 
> As an aside, I am sure we talked about it before, but I can't help but love how brilliant some of JKR's clues were about some things including Snape's loyalties. Contrary to Fake!Moody he never demonstrates dark curses on spiders or anybody else, he just shows pictures.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>
Nikkalmati

I think Potioncat means we don't know if Harry said anything in class about his method of defending against Dementors.  He just notes Snape's method is different and he expected to get a low mark on his essay because he disagreed with Snape.  To me, that says he put his opinion in the essay. DH US hardback p 448. 
I agree that the Order was taught Patronuses by DD and Snape could hardly have the class all learn to cast a Patronus and he could not afford to have his own seen by everyone.  
Snape never had a chance to decide if he wanted to teach.  LV told him to apply so he could spy on DD, and DD made it a condition of Snape's redemption, so he probably doesn't know himself.  He is an effective teacher.  We don't know anything about the grades he gives, except that no one specifically complains.  

Nikkalmati




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 15 03:34:54 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 03:34:54 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hv6pnr+o2dm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv6scu+blg7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189328



> Nikkalmati
> 
> I think Potioncat means we don't know if Harry said anything in class about his method of defending against Dementors.  He just notes Snape's method is different and he expected to get a low mark on his essay because he disagreed with Snape.  To me, that says he put his opinion in the essay. DH US hardback p 448. 

<SNIP>


Alla:

Oh. Yes, of course, I agree that Harry described his method in the essay, he may have talked about it in class, but this is something we do not know about, so may as well never happened. What I do not understand is how it is relevant to what I was saying that Snape should have given Harry high marks on his essay despite the fact that Harry was disagreeing with Snape. Sorry for being unclear and I do not mean to be snippy but I truly do not get it.

To me Harry disagreeing with Snape be it in written OR oral form pretty much equals Harry challenging Snape. We KNOW that Patronus method is effective in fighting Dementors, we saw it, in fact we know that Patronus can fight a whole lot of Dementors.  I think that grade that Harry deserved is Outstanding. Oh wait, I see. Are you saying that since we never know what grade Harry actually got it is not a given that Snape gave him a low grade? If that's what you are arguing then I disagree, but could you please clarify if you are arguing something different?

I think that IF Harry received a high grade on that essay that would have been a really big deal for him and he would have shared it with Ron and Hermione. He did not, so to me that meant that his prediction was confirmed and he got a low grade and completely undeservingly so.

JMO,

Alla




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 15 06:36:12 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:36:12 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hv5580+7lhd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv770s+82on@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189329

> > 
> > Joey:
> > 
> > I don't think he *wanted* to teach - DD sort of gave Snape no option after unfurling the you-take-care-of-Lily's-son plan to Snape. Teaching at Hogwarts would be the easiest way to take care of Harry which is Snape chose to do that, I feel. 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Well, we know he was very interested in doing well in exams and was like Hermione in that he wanted to go over the test after taking it. I know being studious doesn't mean one wants to teach--but it shows an interest in academia.

Joey:

True and that is why I think he could do great in research. Do you think a person who *genuinely* wants to teach will be that horrible with students like Neville and Hermione? I'd think they would rather offer help to students like Neville or at least refrain from being that nasty. And I'm excluding Harry here because Snape was clearly prejudiced in his case and so, that is a different problem altogether, I think.

> Potioncat:
> I think he was pursing a position before it was given to him. How else could he explain the job to LV? "Hey boss, Dumbledore just offered me a job out of the blue?" Although, I think LV had set him the task of getting a position--I think LV wanted someone at Hogwarts. And if that's the case, it still doesn't tell us if Snape wanted to teach.

Joey:

I wonder if Voldy *planned* to have Snape at Hogwarts. I always thought he found the option useful *after* Snape explained to him what he had been doing at Hogwarts all the time Voldy was invalid. Didn't Voldy refer to him planning to punish Snape and Karkaroff (indirectly, without mentioning their names) during his "rebirthing party" in GoF?

> Potioncat:
> He doesn't seem to enjoy it, and he doesnt' seem to like the students, but he does take pride in his "higher than average pass rate" on the OWLs.

Joey:

Good points indeed and probably this is where we have different points of view. The facts that he doesn't seem to enjoy it and that he doesn't seem to like the students make me feel that he doesn't *want* to teach. You seem to consider his taking pride in his "higher than average pass rate" on the OWLs an important indicator of his attitude towards the job and yes, I must say that I understand why it may look significant to you though I personally wouldn't give this point that high an importance.

> > Joey:
> > Research, yes, sure. Healer, um, *maybe* not. I can imagine him doing a great job diagnosing problems in patients and also, performing skillful cures. His ability to control his emotions also will guard him from getting emotionaly involved with patients. Yet I feel a Healer should be smiling and gentle with the patients to enable their speedy recovery and I'm finding it tough to imagine Snape being smiling and gentle. :-) And yes, I do remember him being sort of okay with Slytherins but that would not suffice for a Healer, I think. :-)
> 
> Potioncat:
> We saw him healing DD and Draco. We know he healed what's-her-name of the necklace curse and made the mandrake potion in CoS. He also offered the antidote to the swelling draft in class in CoS and that went smoothly for all students.

Joey:

Oh yes, he can certainly be a *very skillful* Healer. It's just that I think Healers should be *really* passionate about their jobs - someone like Madam Pomfrey. I like McGonagall yet I wouldn't imagine her as a Healer, especially if I'm asked choose between her and Flitwick or her and say Sprout. 

> Potioncat:
> So, Ok, He's no Marcus Welby--Let's say his style would be more like House.
> 
> Potioncat.....what do you mean, "Who's Marcus Welby?"

Joey:

LOL. Good one. :-) I also had fun trying to imagine Alec Rickman in Snape's attire with a Marcus Welby smile. :-)

Cheers,
~Joey, who enjoyed pondering over Potioncat's arguments :-)







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jun 15 13:19:56 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:19:56 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hv770s+82on@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv7uls+1q3d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189330


> Joey:
> 
> True and that is why I think he could do great in research. Do you think a person who *genuinely* wants to teach will be that horrible with students like Neville and Hermione? I'd think they would rather offer help to students like Neville or at least refrain from being that nasty. 

Pippin:
Snape was Head of Slytherin. I think that indicates a degree of approval for the way he does his job and a certain ambition to be recognized for doing it. He didn't need to be a Head of House to protect Harry.

 I think "teaching" has to be broken into its constituent bits before we consider whether Snape liked doing it. Clearly he enjoyed lecturing, he liked being considered an authority, and he was proud of that high pass rate. He thought it important to organize the material and present it to the class in a logical way -- as we can tell from his complaint about Lupin's lack of organization and  Hermione's protest when he takes up the topic of werewolves out of order. He liked to see people appreciate the beauty and power of potions, and he wanted them to be able to protect themselves from those who used the Dark Arts.  

What he didn't like was coaxing better performance out of the inept or the uninterested. Nowadays  that's  an important part of what a teacher, especially a teacher of children, is supposed to do and Snape was obviously lacking. However, there is the alternate and older philosophy that treated children as miniature adults, according to which  the incompetent and the uninterested deserved to fail. I think that is the tradition that Snape was brought up in -- it is certainly  one which accords with the general elitism of Slytherin House. 

The interesting thing is that Snape was conflicted about it -- he liked that high pass rate. So he didn't ignore the students who did poorly (though they, like Harry, wished he would). He bullied them, which is, as Shaun liked to point out,  effective with some students, the ones whose problems are arrogance and boredom rather than lack of confidence. Snape and McGonagall don't seem to know how to deal with lack of confidence, probably because the classroom is the one place where they never doubted their abilities. 

In regard to the discussion about Snape's grading, we do have some information that he was capable of grading fairly. We're told that Hermione beat Draco in every class. I think it would be impossible to say what grade Harry should have gotten on his dementor essay. After all, an essay isn't judged only on the truth of its argument but on how well that argument is presented. If Harry just baldly asserted that the patronus spell is better because it worked better for him, I'd give him a low grade myself. And I doubt that Harry ever considered there might be situations in which a wizard who could produce a patronus might not want to do so -- for example, if he was in disguise. 

It's not necessarily true that Harry would have remarked on it if he'd done better than expected. He was certain that Snape was going to poison one of the students in order to demonstrate antidotes when he escaped that class in GoF to get his wand weighed, but he never even tries to find out if that happened. You'd think he'd want to know if one of his friends had been poisoned, but no. 

It just shows that Harry wasn't nearly as Snape-obsessed as we are. He didn't think about Snape unless he had to. In fact I think he named his son after Snape partly in recognition that if he had really thought about Snape, he'd have known the truth. Snape, one way or another, came to Harry's rescue every single year. 

In fact I think that is the most important thing he taught Harry: that a brave person who hates you can still be a valuable ally, in fact more trustworthy than a friend who is a coward.

Pippin






From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Jun 15 17:13:49 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:13:49 -0400
Subject: Snape, Potions, Grades, and Magical Theory
In-Reply-To: <hv7uls+1q3d@eGroups.com>
References: <hv7uls+1q3d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4C17B4CD.5030707@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189331

Pippin:
> Snape was Head of Slytherin. I think that indicates a degree of approval for the way he does his job and a certain ambition to be recognized for doing it. He didn't need to be a Head of House to protect Harry.
>    

     A few observations:

     1) A student's grades in Hogwarts have two purposes. The first is 
to let the student know what he or she has to work on. The second is a 
guide to professors as to who to admit to the advanced classes. In the 
WW, Hogwarts grades count for nothing; it's how the students do on their 
OWL's and NEWT's that count.

     2) One area where Harry is demonstrated on being insufficient is 
theory. It is not made clear whether it's a lack of interest or a lack 
of talent. He appears not to care about why something works; he's just 
interested in cookbook style results. Given instructions and 
concentration, he is reasonably talented. But I doubt that he could come 
up with an original spell, even if it were a minor variation on an 
existing one.

     3) Both Dumbledore and Snape have shown proficiency is being able 
to come up with original applications of magic, or superior methods of 
achieving a result. Secondarily, in PS/SS, Snape's puzzle is a logic 
puzzle, and it is established that wizards are not well schooled in 
logic. Hermione, however, having a very logical mind, shows herself to 
at least know theory, and even apply it (the contract and the coins in 
DA). So have Fred & George; although Hermione considers their work to be 
somewhat elementary, it's notable that the Ministry of Magic was 
interested in some of their applictions.

     To my mind, most wizards are like Harry; quite willing and able to 
learn applications, but weak when it comes to theory. This appears to be 
what makes the difference between good wizards and great wizards (skill, 
not good/evil). Snape's impatience with students may very well come from 
this; although he gives cookbook instructions to his class, errors that, 
without understanding of theory, look extremely minor look like 
tremendous carelessness from Professor Snape's point of view. For 
example, if you are cooking, and using Kelvin as your temperature scale, 
then bringing water to 373 degrees or 353 degrees doesn't seem to be 
that big a deal. But knowing that it's, in Fahrenheit, it's 212 degrees 
vs. 176 degrees, it's a BIG difference (Celsius is easier; 100 degrees 
or 80 degrees) . But, even so, if the student is unaware that water 
boils at 373 degrees Kelvin, they may not even be able to make the 
connection. One can see how a teacher can be frustrated when faced with 
that level of ignorance.

     Bart




From thedossetts at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 17:36:05 2010
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:36:05 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hv6scu+blg7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv8dm5+ohk3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189332



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > I think Potioncat means we don't know if Harry said anything in class about his method of defending against Dementors.  He just notes Snape's method is different and he expected to get a low mark on his essay because he disagreed with Snape.  To me, that says he put his opinion in the essay. DH US hardback p 448. 
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh. Yes, of course, I agree that Harry described his method in the essay, he may have talked about it in class, but this is something we do not know about, so may as well never happened. What I do not understand is how it is relevant to what I was saying that Snape should have given Harry high marks on his essay despite the fact that Harry was disagreeing with Snape. Sorry for being unclear and I do not mean to be snippy but I truly do not get it.
> 
> To me Harry disagreeing with Snape be it in written OR oral form pretty much equals Harry challenging Snape. We KNOW that Patronus method is effective in fighting Dementors, we saw it, in fact we know that Patronus can fight a whole lot of Dementors.  I think that grade that Harry deserved is Outstanding. Oh wait, I see. Are you saying that since we never know what grade Harry actually got it is not a given that Snape gave him a low grade? If that's what you are arguing then I disagree, but could you please clarify if you are arguing something different?
> 
> I think that IF Harry received a high grade on that essay that would have been a really big deal for him and he would have shared it with Ron and Hermione. He did not, so to me that meant that his prediction was confirmed and he got a low grade and completely undeservingly so.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>


Pat here:
To me, it was apparent that Snape had discussed another method of resisting Dementors.  This means that there is more than one way to fight them.  Harry's method, the Patronus charm, is certainly one way, and most of the time he is quite successful in using it.  But it doesn't always work, even for Harry.  POA shows us a time when Harry was trying to save not only his own soul, but also Hermione's and Sirius'.  Hermione definitely wasn't able to conjure her Patronus (we have no evidence that she had ever tried before this time), and, most importantly, Harry himself was unable to produce a Patronus.  If it hadn't been for the whole time traveling thing, all three of them would have perished that night.  

As for Snape's role in all this, it seems to me that, excellent wizard that he is, he also realizes that conjuring a Patronus isn't always possible: there are times when people just don't have the requisite positive feelings.  If Snape knows of another method of neutralizing a Dementor - something that will also work, and doesn't depend on positive feelings - then teaching it to his classes seems like a really good thing to me.  Possibly the Patronus charm works best, but if there's another, more easily worked charm that will work, just maybe not as well, then I would certainly want to learn that for times when I was unable to do the Patronus charm.  In addition, Lupus tells Harry outright that it is a very advanced spell: it seems that most wizards don't attain that level and aren't ever able to produce a patronus.  So, any alternate method would be good!

As to the issue of Harry's essay: he exhibits a little rebellious streak here.  If Snape is teaching something, Harry will try his best to disagree with it.  Snape is offering something that Hogwarts students can accomplish; Harry likes his own method because someone he likes taught it to him, as opposed to someone he doesn't like teaching him something in opposition to Lupin's method.  Is it any surprise that Harry won't even consider Snape's method?  Not to me.  But I think this scene puts Harry into a bad light, not Snape.  Snape has offered a method of resisting Dementors that any Hogwarts-level student should be able to learn.  Lupin himself says that the Patronus charm is too advanced.  It is not taught at Hogwarts (except to the DA.)  Snape was, as usual, being a good teacher; Harry resisted what he had to teach because of who that teacher was.  Just too much emotional baggage carried by Harry to be able to learn from Snape. (and yes, Snape has his own heavy emotional baggage where Harry is concerned, LOL!)

~Pat





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 15 22:11:30 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:11:30 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hv8dm5+ohk3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv8tqi+irqn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189333


Pat:

<SNIP>
As for Snape's role in all this, it seems to me that, excellent wizard that he
is, he also realizes that conjuring a Patronus isn't always possible: there are
times when people just don't have the requisite positive feelings. If Snape
knows of another method of neutralizing a Dementor - something that will also
work, and doesn't depend on positive feelings - then teaching it to his classes
seems like a really good thing to me. <SNIP>

Alla:

But of course, if there is another method that works sure Snape could and should teach it to the class. Variety is a spice of life after all. What I take an issue with is Snape grading Harry low on the method that not *maybe* works, on the method that works for sure.  And I think it is interesting that the only method that we are *shown* that works is Harry's method. To me that means that writer implies that this is the method to deal with Dementors. Of course I am just speculating, but with Dementors playing quite an important role in book three, I think if another method was possible, it would have been shown for the reader. I think that Snape being petty and exercising his revenge on James's son again. But I can totally be wrong and maybe Snape graded Harry high and Harry was so not surprised by such peculiar occasion that he said nothing. I cannot buy Snape being fair to Harry though, ever.


Pat:
As to the issue of Harry's essay: he exhibits a little rebellious streak here. 
If Snape is teaching something, Harry will try his best to disagree with it. 
Snape is offering something that Hogwarts students can accomplish; Harry likes
his own method because someone he likes taught it to him, as opposed to someone
he doesn't like teaching him something in opposition to Lupin's method. <SNIP>

Alla:

Are you arguing that Harry disagreed with Snape simply because he wanted to be disagreeable and because he liked teacher better? IMO regardless of what emotional baggage he had (and of course he did) and I maintain that ALL of such emotional baggage was inflicted upon Harry by Snape in the first place, in this instance Harry disagreed because he experienced practical results of his method and of course he would choose the one that he knew for sure would work.
To me it is like arguing that if  there is a spell that is a whole sentence that can stupefy people, that Harry should start using that spell instead of "Stupefy" simply because teacher says it should work.

I know I would choose the results of experiment that I conducted myself rather than what teacher would say should work and I would definitely insist on the highest grade for myself if this achieves the result teacher seeks.

JMO,

Alla






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Jun 16 01:44:42 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 01:44:42 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hv8tqi+irqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv9aaa+fjmm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189334



> 
> Alla:

>snip 
> I know I would choose the results of experiment that I conducted myself rather than what teacher would say should work and I would definitely insist on the highest grade for myself if this achieves the result teacher seeks.


Potioncat:
That implies that Harry had the opportunity to try both methods on Dementors and found Lupin's to work better.

JKR said in an interview that the Patronum charm wasn't taught at Hogwarts, so that means Lupin didn't teach it to his advanced students either. What did he teach them, do you think? Maybe the same spell Snape teaches? Or perhaps a third option?

I wanted to read the section myself before posting, but I haven't had the chance.  From the other posts, and my recollection, it seems Harry turned in  his essay and expected to marked down because he disgreed with Snape. And he probably was. Was that fair? (Would it matter to Snape whether it was fair--no.) But I can't tell you if would be fair or not. I don't know what Snape taught or why,or what the purpose of the essay was.

Some ideas have been given that I agree with about reasons Snape might not have wanted to teach the spell. (too difficult for most students--an easier and adequate spell for general wizards; not wanting to reveal his own Patronus as he is under cover and uses his for communication)I'll add that the curriculum may have required a different spell.

>From outside the book, what JKR did was to again give us reason to distrust/dislike Snape, to let us know Snape knew a different spell against Dementors, and to show that Harry was resistant to learning from Snape/was very loyal to Lupin.

And it makes me want to revisit the moments after the gang comes out of the Shrieking Shack and are attacked by Dementors while Snape is unconscious. Were we given any clues then that he knew something different?




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 16 02:12:40 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 02:12:40 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hv7uls+1q3d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv9buo+ms3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189335

Pippin:
It's not necessarily true that Harry would have remarked on it if he'd done
better than expected. He was certain that Snape was going to poison one of the
students in order to demonstrate antidotes when he escaped that class in GoF to
get his wand weighed, but he never even tries to find out if that happened.
You'd think he'd want to know if one of his friends had been poisoned, but no.

Alla:

LOL, personally I would assume that he saw all his friends coming out of the class or to next class intact and that would be the end of inquiry. But not to remark on his high grade? Sorry, I cannot believe that.

Pippin:
It just shows that Harry wasn't nearly as Snape-obsessed as we are. He didn't
think about Snape unless he had to. <SNIP>

Alla:

Or it shows that his assumption about his grade was spot on, just as the assumption about Snape that he hates him from first lesson was spot on. Oh I know it was incomplete, Snape after all was protecting him too, but it was not wrong.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
In fact I think that is the most important thing he taught Harry: that a brave
person who hates you can still be a valuable ally, in fact more trustworthy than
a friend who is a coward.


Alla:

The lesson that Snape did not know he was teaching I personally would not consider a lesson.

JMO,

Alla






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Jun 16 02:19:41 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 02:19:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hv0lqt+tvf9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv9cbu+su7a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189336



> Alla:
> 
> Did Snape want to teach? Oh for a while I thought that maybe he would not mind teaching advanced students seminar, that is before he started teaching DADA that is. We all know that one subject where Harry is meant to be brilliant is DADA. And not just because JKR said so, first and foremost I see it in canon and did Snape praise him once?
> 

Potioncat:
Harry is brilliant in DADA?
Really?
I think he's very lucky, and he has a sense of what to do, yet he struggled with the spells and counter spells just as much as anyone else. He even had a more difficult time learning some of the spells that others did. So I wouldn't say he's brilliant. Is that JKR said?

Harry's a darn good DADA teacher though. Better than any of the others we saw, including Lupin.

Alla:
> Yes, Harry talked back at that lesson (yay)no I still think that Harry should have gotten his well deserved dues for the method of defending the Dementors even if it is different from what Snape knows and able to do.

Potioncat:
I just couldn't remember how the scene had played out, but I think we've sense covered it.

Alla:
> 
> What I would have been really interested in seeing is how Snape would have graded Harry and Hermione and other Gryffindors at the end of the year.
> 
Potioncat:
Yep, that would have been interesting.

Alla: 
> As an aside, I am sure we talked about it before, but I can't help but love how brilliant some of JKR's clues were about some things including Snape's loyalties. Contrary to Fake!Moody he never demonstrates dark curses on spiders or anybody else, he just shows pictures.
> 

Potioncat:
Just wanted to acknowledge that too. I think the whole ferret scene between Crouch!Moody and Draco was an eye opener once we all had a chance to realise who was really bouncing Draco. How many of us slapped our foreheads and said, "How did I miss that!"

As for Snape--it was the very fact that he was so horrible to Harry, yet was protecting him--that really caught my attention back in book one.




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Jun 16 03:37:29 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 03:37:29 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hv6scu+blg7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv9gtp+61of@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189337


Alla said
>To me Harry disagreeing with Snape be it in written OR oral form pretty much
equals Harry challenging Snape. We KNOW that Patronus method is effective in
fighting Dementors, we saw it, in fact we know that Patronus can fight a whole
lot of Dementors. I think that grade that Harry deserved is Outstanding. Oh
wait, I see. Are you saying that since we never know what grade Harry actually
got it is not a given that Snape gave him a low grade? If that's what you are
arguing then I disagree, but could you please clarify if you are arguing
>something different?

Nikkalmati

Maybe his grade was unremarkable. Just what Harry expected - neither low nor high.

Nikkalmati




From ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun 15 22:35:18 2010
From: ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net (Sheila Douglas)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:35:18 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
References: <hv8tqi+irqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4C180026.00018F.05392@SHEILA-PC>

No: HPFGUIDX 189338


> Alla:

> Are you arguing that Harry disagreed with Snape simply because he wanted to be disagreeable and because he liked teacher better? IMO regardless of what emotional baggage he had (and of course he did) and I maintain that ALL of such emotional baggage was inflicted upon Harry by Snape in the first place, in this instance Harry disagreed because he experienced practical results of his method and of course he would choose the one that he knew for sure would work.

> To me it is like arguing that if there is a spell that is a whole sentence that can stupefy people, that Harry should start using that spell instead of "Stupefy" simply because teacher says it should work.

> I know I would choose the results of experiment that I conducted myself rather than what teacher would say should work and I would definitely insist on the highest grade for myself if this achieves the result teacher seeks.


sile_dubhghlase:
I have to agree with Alla again. What could have Harry gained by just being disagreeable? Again, he did what Remus taught him to do and it worked no matter what Snape's opinion on the thing might be,
right-wrong-or-indifferent. Period. However, not all of Harry's emotional baggage should be attributed to Snape, although the greasy git certainly added to it. His time with the Dursleys and the fact that he faced down Voldemort at least three more times before his third year and endured scorn and then praise and then scorn again over it all DEFINITELY had much to do with Harry's baggage.

Ockham's Razor applies here. In a duel, the faster one can cast, the better chance he or she has to win or survive, as the case may be. If one can cast a spell with an economy of words in the incantation and achieve the same--if not better--results, how can it be counted as wrong? Only a jealous, sneering, megalomaniacal, overgrown whine-baby would count it as such...and that, gang, is Severus Snape.

I too would trust the results of an experiment I conducted on my own rather than the word of some person calling himself a professor whom I had little to no respect for. There's nothing wrong with seeking out answers for oneself because no human being is infallible, but people blinded by hate and jealousy can't accept that, especially if it's a child or the child of a hated rival that made the discovery.



From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Jun 16 03:49:17 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 03:49:17 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hv8tqi+irqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv9hjt+7bpg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189339



  
> Alla:
> 
> Are you arguing that Harry disagreed with Snape simply because he wanted to be disagreeable and because he liked teacher better? IMO regardless of what emotional baggage he had (and of course he did) and I maintain that ALL of such emotional baggage was inflicted upon Harry by Snape in the first place, in this instance Harry disagreed because he experienced practical results of his method and of course he would choose the one that he knew for sure would work.
> To me it is like arguing that if  there is a spell that is a whole sentence that can stupefy people, that Harry should start using that spell instead of "Stupefy" simply because teacher says it should work.
>
Nikkalmati

Are you suggesting Harry should not be interested in learning something new?
You seem to be forgetting the other arguments:  1. Only the Order knew about Patronuses.  2. A Patronus is very hard to conjure for most wizards and beyond this year level. 3. Snape can't teach it because he con't or won't let people see his Patronus.

Nikkalmati

Alla 
> I know I would choose the results of experiment that I conducted myself rather than what teacher would say should work and I would definitely insist on the highest grade for myself if this achieves the result teacher seeks.
> 
> 
>
Nikkalmati

Note this method was not Harry's idea or the result of his experimentation.  He learned it from Lupin who learned it from DD.

This is a pretty modern idea you have here.  Back in my day (a long, long time ago, but not time out of mind) a student would not expect a higher grade for doing something other than what he or she was taught. Originality was fine in its place, but not in the classroom.  I don't say that is the best way; I just wanted you to be aware that things used to be different.

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Jun 16 04:05:39 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 04:05:39 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <4C127AEB.000039.05392@SHEILA-PC>
Message-ID: <hv9iij+l797@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189340



> 
> 
> sile_dubhghlase:
>
 It wouldn't surprise me that Sirius would make some kind of snide comment
> about Snape's DADA skills. In OotP Chapter 28, Snape's Worst Memory, pages
> 641-44 (Scholastic) or pages 564-67 (Bloomsbury), we find Severus and the
> Marauders engaged in the written portion of their Defense Against the Dark
> Arts OWL. When Flitwick calls the time and collects the papers, Snape's the
> first one out of the hall, but he lingers in the shadows to hear what James
> Potter and his friends have to say about it. They're obviously aware that
> Snape's listening in because they're tossing the answers to the questions
> around like they're child's play, knowing DADA is a subject Snape struggles
> with.
<snip>

Nikkalmati

I am not sure why you think Snape is shown as struggling.  What I saw was that Snape was writing far more than necessary, struggling , if at all, to get down on paper most of his rather vast knowledge in the time allowed.  The Mauraders are shown as indifferent to their performance and rather flippant about it all.

Nikkalmati




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 16 05:06:24 2010
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:06:24 -0000
Subject: Horcruxes, hosting a soul piece
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikWlMq5Jo3kuXpOYUEEEJ3vjMjkv4eXvWxkBLwf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hv9m4g+insd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189341



> No.Limberger responds:
> I completely agree in that my idea is highly speculative. I had
> forgotten about Nagini being a horcrux, so my initial concept that
> a horcrux was intended to be an inanimate object wasn't correct.

Mike:
Oh, I think your initial concept was dead-on right! In fact, Dumbledore even agrees with you on this point. He said using Nagini wasn't a good idea. 


> No.Limberger continued:
> However, what is clear is that using an inanimate object would
> likely be far more stable given both its longevity and lack of a
> living soul/mind itself.

Mike:
Spot on again. The whole point of creating a Horcrux is to become immortal, so you want the vessel that is now your Horcrux to also endure infinitely. A living being as a Horcrux is going to eventually die. And we've been shown that the death of a living Horcrux is equivalent to distroying an inanimate Horcrux. I don't know how long magical snakes live, but I doubt that they are immortal.

As to Harry, I don't think you can call him a true Horcrux. I believe the split off soul piece has to be forced into the containment object and captured there by the Horcrux spell, or it will just float away to wherever soul pieces float away to. LV's soul, being just split again after killing Lily and James, was set free of his body when he was killed by the rebounding AK. So nothing was keeping that split off piece connected to the rest of LV's soul.

Why it went to live in Harry was never really explained, maybe souls naturally seek a living thing to habitate? Maybe a piece of soul is so corrupted that it doesn't know to return to the soul bank to await redeployment? 

In any case, it appears that the soul piece in Harry adopted Harry as it's owner and rejected the mothership soul in LV. It gave Harry the ability to speak Parceltongue, and reacted with pain whenever it got near the other soul piece in LV. Like splitting a magnet, this soul immediately repolarized and was repelled from the same soul that it was once attached to. But it still kept the magnetic qualities, ahh, I mean it kept the same soul-based qualities as the original version.


> No.Limberger:
<snip>
> The diary never recognized that Harry was, himself, a horcrux.

Mike:
Interesting, this. Neither the diary nor the locket seemed to recognize the sibling soul piece within Harry. Neither did Harry react with pain when he was near these other soul pieces, like he did when he was near the main LV soul piece. But both the diary and the locket Hurcruxes attempted to influence Harry as well as others. Both of these Hocruxes exhibited Dementor-like qualities. Curious.

Mike




From ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun 16 04:26:39 2010
From: ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net (Sheila Douglas)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 23:26:39 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
References: <hv9iij+l797@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4C18527F.0001B1.05392@SHEILA-PC>

No: HPFGUIDX 189342

<snip>

Nikkalmati:
> I am not sure why you think Snape is shown as struggling.
What I saw was that Snape was writing far more than necessary,
struggling, if at all, to get down on paper most of his rather
vast knowledge in the time allowed. The Mauraders are shown as
indifferent to their performance and rather flippant about it
> all.



sile_dubhghlase:
Think of Ockham's Razor--less is more. He's writing furiously to answer the
question with more verbage than necessary, so that tells me he's having a
hard time getting to the point. If he had a firm grasp on DADA, he could
have answered those questions faster and with fewer words. The Marauders are
not indifferent, but they are flippant because it doesn't tax them much..
well, except for Peter. Then we hearken back to the issue in the class Snape
taught for Lupin in third year when he blows the origins of the Kappa,
according to Fantastic Beasts and where to find them, page 23. That volume
is not a textbook, rather an individual effort by world-reknowned
magizoologist, Newt Scamander.

I had said earlier that Snape's knowledge of DADA was lacking, but someone
else said that maybe his knowledge of dark CREATURES was the issue. Perhaps
that's true. That said, maybe that question he was writing furiously about
had to do with a "dark creature." There was some joking around among the
Marauders about Werewolves... But then again, according to PoA, Chapter 19,
The Servant of Lord Voldemort, page 361 (Scholastic) or page 265
(Bloomsbury), three third-years blasted the greasy git off his feet and
knocked him unconscious. He can't be that good.

It's just how I read it and I think that's what JKR intended to convey.







From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 16 06:18:15 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 06:18:15 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hv7uls+1q3d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hv9qb7+fl7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189343

> > Joey:
> > 
> > True and that is why I think he could do great in research. Do you think a person who *genuinely* wants to teach will be that horrible with students like Neville and Hermione? I'd think they would rather offer help to students like Neville or at least refrain from being that nasty. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Snape was Head of Slytherin. I think that indicates a degree of approval for the way he does his job and a certain ambition to be recognized for doing it. He didn't need to be a Head of House to protect Harry.

Joey:

Quite possible though I also think Snape's special love for that house could have made a significant contribution towards that ambition.

Actually, your reply made me think of something else too: who else was there Slytherin house who could have been the head of that house? OK, we had Lupin, Hagrid and Minerva for Gryffindor out of which Minerva seems to have got it. Wonder who else could have been there fo the other houses if not for Flitwick or Sprout or Snape. To which house did other professors Binns or Vector or Sinistra or Grubbly-Plank belong?

> Pippin: 
> I think "teaching" has to be broken into its constituent bits before we consider whether Snape liked doing it. Clearly he enjoyed lecturing, he liked being considered an authority, and he was proud of that high pass rate. 

Joey:

Mmm, yes, I agree.

> Pippin: 
> He thought it important to organize the material and present it to the class in a logical way -- as we can tell from his complaint about Lupin's lack of organization and  Hermione's protest when he takes up the topic of werewolves out of order. 

Joey:

I agree that he thought it important to organize the material and present it to the class in a logical way but only because of the way he taught potions. As for his complaint about Lupin's lack of organization, I think it was a prejudiced remark. Lupin came across as pretty organized to me - he ensured that he always kept ready the creature he would deal with in the forthcoming lesson and his method of teaching sounded smooth, focussed and effective.

> Pippin: 
> He liked to see people appreciate the beauty and power of potions, and he wanted them to be able to protect themselves from those who used the Dark Arts.  

Joey:

True. Agreed.

> Pippin:  
> What he didn't like was coaxing better performance out of the inept or the uninterested. Nowadays  that's  an important part of what a teacher, especially a teacher of children, is supposed to do and Snape was obviously lacking. However, there is the alternate and older philosophy that treated children as miniature adults, according to which  the incompetent and the uninterested deserved to fail. I think that is the tradition that Snape was brought up in -- it is certainly  one which accords with the general elitism of Slytherin House. The interesting thing is that Snape was conflicted about it -- he liked that high pass rate. So he didn't ignore the students who did poorly (though they, like Harry, wished he would). He bullied them, which is, as Shaun liked to point out,  effective with some students, the ones whose problems are arrogance and boredom rather than lack of confidence. 

Joey:

Hmm, interesting analysis. Yet we don't see him bullying Crabbe or Goyle. They were quite inept. I think boredom, if not arrogance, was certainly their problem. Wonder how people like Pansy Parkinson and Millicent Bulstrode fared in studies. Snape didn't seem to bully them too. Pansy sounded quite arrogant and nosy to me. We hear Hermione branding her as someone worse than a concussed troll but then it *could* have been due to their enmity. 

> Pippin:  
> Snape and McGonagall don't seem to know how to deal with lack of confidence, probably because the classroom is the one place where they never doubted their abilities. 

Joey:

Agreed. Your reasoning sounds interesting - I always attributed that behaviour of theirs to their impatience. Hmmm... different POVs. :-)

> Pippin:  
[snip]
> In fact I think that is the most important thing he taught Harry: that a brave person who hates you can still be a valuable ally, in fact more trustworthy than a friend who is a coward.

Joey:

Brave *and loyal* person, I'd say, for it was his pure love for Lily that *primarily* drove him to do what he did.

Cheers,
~Joey, who enjoys the different perspectives people of this group always offer :-)




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 16 11:36:38 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:36:38 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hv9hjt+7bpg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvad06+rf0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189344



> Nikkalmati
> 
> Are you suggesting Harry should not be interested in learning something new?
> You seem to be forgetting the other arguments:  1. Only the Order knew about Patronuses.  2. A Patronus is very hard to conjure for most wizards and beyond this year level. 3. Snape can't teach it because he con't or won't let people see his Patronus.

Alla:

Well,no. I am not forgetting them. They are just irrelevant to what I am arguing. What I am arguing is not that Snape should not have been teaching his mysterious method to the class if it truly worked. And I am going to go on a lymb and assume that it did for the sake of the argument even though it is not shown anywhere in the book, so it is a pretty big limb for me.

What I AM saying however that Snape should not have ever graded Harry, one student who used the other method that worked for sure and achieved the same results. Unless of course that great wizard did not know that such method existed, Harry's method I mean. Then I cannot call him a knowledgeable wizard at all, if he was surprised by Harry's method.


> Alla 
> > I know I would choose the results of experiment that I conducted myself rather than what teacher would say should work and I would definitely insist on the highest grade for myself if this achieves the result teacher seeks.
> > 
> > 
> >
> Nikkalmati
> 
> Note this method was not Harry's idea or the result of his experimentation.  He learned it from Lupin who learned it from DD.

Alla:

Sure, my analogy is not perfect, but for me it was close enough.



Nikkalmati: 
> This is a pretty modern idea you have here.  Back in my day (a long, long time ago, but not time out of mind) a student would not expect a higher grade for doing something other than what he or she was taught. Originality was fine in its place, but not in the classroom.  I don't say that is the best way; I just wanted you to be aware that things used to be different.


Alla:

You know, my time in school was not yesterday either. I definitely think though that while some educational methods are very useful no mattert what year we are in, some are definitely deserving to be left in the past and never spoken of. And I am not talking about this one specifically.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 16 11:39:50 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:39:50 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvad06+rf0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvad66+g64v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189345



-> Alla:
<SNIP>
> What I AM saying however that Snape should not have ever graded Harry, one student who used the other method that worked for sure and achieved the same results. Unless of course that great wizard did not know that such method existed, Harry's method I mean. Then I cannot call him a knowledgeable wizard at all, if he was surprised by Harry's method.
> 
>
Alla:

UGH. It should be. What I AM saying however that Snape should not have ever downgraded Harry, one student who used the other method that worked for sure and achieved the same results.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Jun 16 11:40:05 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:40:05 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hv9qb7+fl7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvad6l+5lhl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189346


.
> Joey:
.
> 
> Actually, your reply made me think of something else too: who else was there Slytherin house who could have been the head of that house? OK, we had Lupin, Hagrid and Minerva for Gryffindor out of which Minerva seems to have got it. Wonder who else could have been there fo the other houses if not for Flitwick or Sprout or Snape. To which house did other professors Binns or Vector or Sinistra or Grubbly-Plank belong?

Potioncat:
We don't know when he became Head of Slytherin. I wouldn't think he started out as Head, just I wouldn't think Neville did either. There are at least 12 different courses being taught. I'm sure there's another Slytherin in the mix. So Slughorn retires, Snape becomes Potionsmaster and someone else becomes Head of house.

Back to the Gryffindors. By the time Lupin and Hagrid become teachers, Minerva is already Head of House and Deputy Headmistriss. I think, but could be wrong, that she was Head of house during the days of the Marauders. I don't think she became Deputy till later. Although I don't think canon addresses it at all.

Speaking of Neville--he fills Sprout's place. That means there's an opening for Herbology teacher and for Head of Hufflepuff. I think someone at Hogwarts was promoted to head, and Neville was hired to teach.


> 
> Joey:
> 
> Brave *and loyal* person, I'd say, for it was his pure love for Lily that *primarily* drove him to do what he did.

Potioncat:
Snape would have been a good Hufflepuff--very loyal.




From thedossetts at gmail.com  Wed Jun 16 16:53:30 2010
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:53:30 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvad06+rf0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvavia+cmrl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189347




> 
> What I AM saying however that Snape should not have ever (down)graded Harry, one student who used the other method that worked for sure and achieved the same results. Unless of course that great wizard did not know that such method existed, Harry's method I mean. Then I cannot call him a knowledgeable wizard at all, if he was surprised by Harry's method.
> 
> 
> > Alla 


Pat:
I am having a hard time understanding why you don't think Harry should learn an alternate method for dealing with dementors.  We have canon showing us that the Patronus charm doesn't always work (when you don't have the requisite positive feelings) - even Harry has had trouble twice ::in canon.::  To me, it makes sense that knowing another way to get rid of dementors would be valuable.  We know that even Harry has trouble with the Patronus charm in some really serious situations - why should we doubt the teacher, even Snape, in trying to teach all students another method to deal with this?  

I would also contend with your supposition that Snape has no idea that the Patronus charm exists, and that one purpose is to fend off dementors.  Snape absolutely has knowledge of this charm - we see it when he shows DD his patronus is a doe - to say that he had no idea it would work on a dementor seems rather silly to me.  Assuming (yes, I know it's dangerous to assume :P ) that both Snape and Lupin learned a Patronus from DD, why would Lupin know to use it on dementors, but not Snape?  That makes no sense to me.  It seems to me that Snape knows an alternate - easier - way of dealing with the dementors, and that's what he wants the essay to be on.  This is well within the scope of teaching - looking at more than one way to achieve the same results.  But Harry refuses to learn from Snape, when he knows it's Snape (whereas through the HBP's potions book, he's eager, and learns well.)  No, I'm certain Snape knows what the charm can do.  

Thanks for a good argument, Alla! :o)

~Pat, ready to go back to lurking!




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 16 21:55:40 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:55:40 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvavia+cmrl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvbh8s+5l0l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189348



> 
> Pat:
> I am having a hard time understanding why you don't think Harry should learn an alternate method for dealing with dementors.  We have canon showing us that the Patronus charm doesn't always work (when you don't have the requisite positive feelings) - even Harry has had trouble twice ::in canon.::  To me, it makes sense that knowing another way to get rid of dementors would be valuable.  We know that even Harry has trouble with the Patronus charm in some really serious situations - why should we doubt the teacher, even Snape, in trying to teach all students another method to deal with this?  

Alla:

If Snape would have given Harry an Outstanding for acknowledging his method and still asked him to learn another one, different story.  As it is, I am doubting Snape's good faith.

He did not even acknowledge Patronus in theory. I am not asking him to show it in practice.


Pat: 
> I would also contend with your supposition that Snape has no idea that the Patronus charm exists, and that one purpose is to fend off dementors.  Snape absolutely has knowledge of this charm - we see it when he shows DD his patronus is a doe - to say that he had no idea it would work on a dementor seems rather silly to me.  Assuming (yes, I know it's dangerous to assume :P ) that both Snape and Lupin learned a Patronus from DD, why would Lupin know to use it on dementors, but not Snape?  That makes no sense to me.  It seems to me that Snape knows an alternate - easier - way of dealing with the dementors, and that's what he wants the essay to be on.  This is well within the scope of teaching - looking at more than one way to achieve the same results.  But Harry refuses to learn from Snape, when he knows it's Snape (whereas through the HBP's potions book, he's eager, and learns well.)  No, I'm certain Snape knows what the charm can do.  
> 
> Thanks for a good argument, Alla! :o)
> 
> ~Pat, ready to go back to lurking!
>


Alla:

Heee, please do not go back to lurking. I am ready to agree that he knows a charm, but see to me it is one or another, either he is acting in bad faith toward Harry, RE: not acknowledging that method that works deserves a good grade OR he does not know it.

Quite frankly I am convinced that he is acting in bad faith, but I am willing to entertain the possibility that he does not know that.

Do you see the third possibility?




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun 17 02:21:26 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:21:26 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvbh8s+5l0l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvc0r6+5im3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189349


> Alla:
> 
> If Snape would have given Harry an Outstanding for acknowledging his method and still asked him to learn another one, different story.  As it is, I am doubting Snape's good faith.
> 
> He did not even acknowledge Patronus in theory. I am not asking him to show it in practice.
>

Pippin:
There is no canon for what Snape did or did not tell the class about the patronus. 

I agree that Harry is wise to prefer the patronus to a spell he's never tried, at least until he can find a boggart to practice on. But Harry is not actually fighting dementors here. He's not  writing to inform the public in the Daily Prophet or even  the Quibbler. He's writing an essay which is going to be read by one person and one person only: Severus Snape. Now, Harry cannot be expecting to change Snape's mind, so what is Harry's purpose in disagreeing with his teacher? I doubt it's a compulsion to  intellectual honesty: Harry  certainly wasn't troubled by that in his compositions  for Trelawney!

I think Snape's fairness or lack of it is beside the point:  Harry chose, deliberately, to treat the subject in a way which he expected would annoy his teacher. It's no different than poking a caged tiger with a stick, or charming Goyle's toenails, IMO. The purpose is to provoke an angry reaction, one which Harry knows cannot hurt him. He's not going to flunk DADA no matter what grade he gets.

Pippin 






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Jun 17 02:23:23 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:23:23 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvbh8s+5l0l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvc0us+4kqn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189350


 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> If Snape would have given Harry an Outstanding for acknowledging his method and still asked him to learn another one, different story.  As it is, I am doubting Snape's good faith.
> 
> He did not even acknowledge Patronus in theory. I am not asking him to show it in practice.

Potioncat:
I think this was quoted earlier, but here it is again chp 21:
Ron was now struggling to finish a viciously difficult essay for Snape that Harry and Hermione had already completed. Harry fully expected to receive low marks on his, because he had disagreed with Snape on the best way to tackle dementors, but he did not care; Slughorn's memory was the most important thing to him now.

We don't know what the outcome was for the essay. It was viciously difficult, so I'm pretty sure the title wasn't as simple as "Describe the Best Method for Tackling Dementors." Harry has chosen to include his opinion about Expecto Patronum over Snape's method. but even at that, the essay isn't the main thing on Harry's mind, he's more concerned about Slughorn's memory.

We don't know if Snape himself compared the two methods or simply taught one. We don't know what mark Harry was given, or if Snape commented in any way on the paper. At worst Harry must have gotten the score he expected--we don't read later that Snape gave him an Outstanding nor do we learn that he made an especially nasty remark or took any other notable action. We don't know if Harry's essay answered the question, or went off on a tangent. All we know is that Harry used the assignment to voice his opinion about the Patronum Charm.

Much earlier, in chp 9 (which is where we meet the Half-Blood Prince but we won't discover it till chapter 28)(why do I hear Belle singing?)

Sorry, in chp 9 Snape is teaching nonverbal spells. He attacks Harry who panics and casts a verbal Protego, sending Snape crashing into desks. Snape does not react, other than to comment that the spell was supposed to be nonverbal---and Harry is cheeky. Hermione, Ron and Seamus acknowledge it. So if Snape is not abusive in this situation, I don't see why he would be for the essay.


> Alla:
> 
> Heee, please do not go back to lurking. I am ready to agree that he knows a charm, but see to me it is one or another, either he is acting in bad faith toward Harry, RE: not acknowledging that method that works deserves a good grade OR he does not know it.
> 
> Quite frankly I am convinced that he is acting in bad faith, but I am willing to entertain the possibility that he does not know that.
> 
> Do you see the third possibility?

Potioncat:
I say, we only know what Harry expects. We don't know what happens and we don't know what Harry actually wrote. We may have our opinions about what went on, but we don't really know.

We also don't know of any of the other DA members felt compelled to comment on the Patronum Charm.

Part of what I'm saying is that if the purpose of the test was to show that the student had learned about the spells taught in class, then any essay about a different spell would be irrelevent. It's like in math class when a teacher teaches a specific method for doing problems and she wants the students to learn that method, she will not allow a different--though valid--method to be used.

But what I really got out of going back to canon was that Harry had  already completed his essay. Wow! What an improvement.

Oh, and I fully agree with Alla--Pat should not go back to lurking.
>





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Thu Jun 17 03:23:13 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 03:23:13 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hv9qb7+fl7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvc4f1+ans9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189351



<big snip>

> > Pippin:  
> [snip]
> > In fact I think that is the most important thing he taught Harry: that a brave person who hates you can still be a valuable ally, in fact more trustworthy than a friend who is a coward.
> 
> Joey:
> 
> Brave *and loyal* person, I'd say, for it was his pure love for Lily that *primarily* drove him to do what he did.
> 
> Cheers,
> ~Joey, who enjoys the different perspectives people of this group always offer :-)
>
Nikkalmati

We know that courage is one of the greatest virtues in the books and that SS hates to be called "coward".
I was wondering have we ever listed all the cowards in the books?
I propose Pettigrew as number one.  Lockhart as number two.  Dudley was also a coward, like all bullies tend to be.  Anyone who attacks a Muggle with magic, because they are weaker and magic is unexpected for them.  I guess that includes the twins, Hagrid and Bella (not to the same degree, of course).  Was Quirrell a coward?  Merope? Karakoff? Marietta?  Fudge?

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Thu Jun 17 03:45:24 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 03:45:24 -0000
Subject: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward  Snape's teaching
In-Reply-To: <hv7uls+1q3d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvc5ok+m3sl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189352



> 
> > Joey:
> > 
> > True and that is why I think he could do great in research. Do you think a person who *genuinely* wants to teach will be that horrible with students like Neville and Hermione? I'd think they would rather offer help to students like Neville or at least refrain from being that nasty. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Snape was Head of Slytherin. I think that indicates a degree of approval for the way he does his job and a certain ambition to be recognized for doing it. He didn't need to be a Head of House to protect Harry.
> 
>  I think "teaching" has to be broken into its constituent bits before we consider whether Snape liked doing it. Clearly he enjoyed lecturing, he liked being considered an authority, and he was proud of that high pass rate. He thought it important to organize the material and present it to the class in a logical way -- as we can tell from his complaint about Lupin's lack of organization and  Hermione's protest when he takes up the topic of werewolves out of order. He liked to see people appreciate the beauty and power of potions, and he wanted them to be able to protect themselves from those who used the Dark Arts.  
> 
> What he didn't like was coaxing better performance out of the inept or the uninterested. Nowadays  that's  an important part of what a teacher, especially a teacher of children, is supposed to do and Snape was obviously lacking. However, there is the alternate and older philosophy that treated children as miniature adults, according to which  the incompetent and the uninterested deserved to fail. I think that is the tradition that Snape was brought up in -- it is certainly  one which accords with the general elitism of Slytherin House. 
> big snip>

Nikkalmati

I have wondered about this situation before.  All the teachers at Hogwarts are expected to teach students from ages 11 to 17.  In the US that would be part of elementary school, middle school (or junior high), and high school.  That's impossible.  Leaving out the number of class preparations, very few would have the personal skills to handle students of all those different ages and we certainly don't expect it of our teachers.  Snape is shown as being very bright or at least very academicly inclined.  Teaching the equvalent of chemistry to very young children would have been extremely stressful for someone of his abilities.  
I think he may have liked teaching some of the older students.  He certainly took pride in his students' OWL and NEWT pass rates.  

Nikkalmati
>





From ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jun 17 04:12:21 2010
From: ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net (Sheila Douglas)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 23:12:21 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
References: <hvc4f1+ans9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4C19A0A5.0001E7.05392@SHEILA-PC>

No: HPFGUIDX 189353

<another big snip>
Nikkalmati:
We know that courage is one of the greatest virtues in the 
books and that SS hates to be called "coward".
I was wondering have we ever listed all the cowards in the 
books?
I propose Pettigrew as number one. Lockhart as number two. 
Dudley was also a coward, like all bullies tend to be. Anyone 
who attacks a Muggle with magic, because they are weaker and 
magic is unexpected for them. I guess that includes the twins, 
Hagrid and Bella (not to the same degree, of course).
Was Quirrell a coward? Merope? Karakoff? Marietta? Fudge?


sile_dubhghlase (on my soapbox):
Severus Snape, as it turns out, was not a coward after all, but
Voldemort/Tom Riddle certainly was. Riddle never did his own dirty work
unless there was an absolute certainly that he would win. He took entirely
too much pleasure in other people's pain, especially the pain he inflicted.
It didn't matter ot him whether his victim was a Muggle, a minion, a witch
or wizard of any calibre, or a Flobberworm. If the victim was weaker or
less-talented than himself, he or she was fair game.

All of the Dursleys were cowards, including Marge, as they terrorized anyone
smaller or weaker than themselves, especially Harry. But let someone
stronger or armed with a wand confront them, Petunia would freeze, Vernon
would shake like a newborn calf, and Dudley would go scurrying away with his
hands across his bum, crying for his mummy. Marge used her stupid little
dogs and her cruel jawjacking  to hurt Harry...or anyone else who disagreed
with her.

Quirinius Quirrell was possessed, so it's hard to say whether or not he was
a coward per se, but since he was too lily-livered to ask for help, I guess
we could classify him as a coward.

Merope Gaunt was damaged. She was the product of generations of inbreeding
and really couldn't be held responsible for her actions. She was abused by
her father and brother and really just wanted out. She fell in love--or so
she thought--with Tom Riddle, Sr and made a bold move to claim him by
brewing and illegally administering a love potion. After a time, she couldn
t bear to live the lie anymore, so she stopped giving it to him. He left her
pregnant and alone and she died in childbrith. I wouldn't classify that as
cowardice, rather than poor judgment.

Igor Karkaroff was a coward from the ground up. He sang like a canary during
his trial so he could get off, and then fled when Voldemort returned. He
died for it, whimpering and begging for mercy.

Marietta Edgecomb could be classified as a coward. She snitched on the DA,
but paid the price for it.

All the little DE wanna-bes like Draco, Pansy, Nott, Crabbe, and Goyle were
cowards, but they were rather stupid as well. They picked on and actually
hurt younger students, joined Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad so they could
pick some more and even meaner and get away with it, but were too stupid to
catch on to the fact that you don't mess with Potter or his people. It's not
healthy.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Weasley Twins were cowards--they were
just pranksters who might have gone a bit far with the Ton-tongue Toffees,
but they never meant to hurt anyone. They always tried their products out on
themselves first before they ever slipped any of them to someone else. They
told their father that they didn't leave those toffees for Dudley because he
was a Muggle, but because he was mean to Harry. But Percy was another story
until HE got a clue in DH.

Hagrid was a gentle man who wouldn't hurt anyone or anything unless he
thought one of the students or another teacher might be in danger, although
his idea of danger was a bit convoluted. Was he a coward? No. Was he
immature? In many cases, yes.

Filch was a coward because he terrorized the students a tried to get the
headmaster to let him torture them with thumbscrews and manacles hanging
from walls and ceilings. He was a happy slimeball when Umbridge authorized
it.

Dolores Umbridge was a coward because she persecuted people she perceived as
weaker than herself or those who have less power than she did...or thought
she did.

Peter Pettigrew was a coward. He aligned himself with the biggest, baddest
bully on the playground. First it was the Marauders, then it was Voldemort.
Any and all Death Eaters fit this category for whatever reason.

James Potter was a coward until he got a clue. He went around hexing people
just because he could and picked on those he thought weaker than himself.
Harry saw that in Snape's Pensieve. Once he got a clue (thanks to Lily,
probably), he became a champion for the weak and downtrodden, as did Sirius
and Remus.

Remus was a (self-proclaimed) coward because as a Prefect, he didn't step in
and rein James and Sirius in when he should have. He was afraid of losing
their friendship.

McGonagall had cowardly moments in that she didn't stand up to Albus about
Harry's placement when she should have. Standing around disapproving didn't
do the boy any good, did it?

I'll leave space for someone else and close with the Uber-coward himself, Cornelius Fudge. Here was a man who didn't have the stones to do the right thing. Instead, he did what his puppeteers wanted him to do or anything that he thought might earn him good press. He wouldn't admit that Voldemort was back because he was too afraid to face the public. When he finally had to, he was ousted and replaced with a paranoid in the form of Rufus Scrimgeour.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 17 06:39:22 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 06:39:22 -0000
Subject: Cowards in HP WAS Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvc4f1+ans9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvcfuq+9goj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189354

> Nikkalmati
> 
> We know that courage is one of the greatest virtues in the books and that SS hates to be called "coward".
> I was wondering have we ever listed all the cowards in the books?
> I propose Pettigrew as number one. Lockhart as number two.  Dudley was also a coward, like all bullies tend to be.   

Joey:

My ranking might be different but yes these three come across as cowards to me too.

> Nikkalmati:
> Anyone who attacks a Muggle with magic, because they are weaker and magic is unexpected for them. I guess that includes the twins, Hagrid and Bella (not to the same degree, of course).  

Joey:

I agree with your point that bullies are actually cowards. Yet I think not all people you have listed here are cowards. 

The *intention* of the twins was to take revenge. I think it was a typical way of settling scores at that age. They just seem to have used their strengths without pausing to think that their opponent did not have the advantage they had. They meant to get even on behalf of Harry. Not that I justify what they did but I don't think this is cowardice. Remember their reactions when Mr Weasley told them off for having hurt a Muggle?

Hagrid. Well, he makes statements that scoff at the limitations of Muggle powers. So, I'll not say what I said for the twins. And remembering the way he responded to Rita Skeeter's article about his mother, yes, he does seem to have certain types of cowardice in him. 

Bellatrix. She just grew up that way. Squashing people she dislikes. Yet I don't think she is a coward - she seems to fear nothing including Azkaban. Bold but mentally perverted, thoroughly wicked and alarmingly aggressive. She badly needs psychiatric counselling.

> Nikkalmati:
> Was Quirrell a coward?  Merope? Karakoff? Marietta?  Fudge?

Joey:

Quirrell, yeah. A weak-minded (and hence, brainwashed) entity. 

Merope was subjected to an advanced level of abuse since her childhood and had almost zero exposure to a non-Gaunt environment thus making it difficult for her to learn from others. So, I'm finding it tough to call her a coward. She did seem to have it in her to choose her life once the two Gaunts were out of her life.

Karkaroff, yes. A sickening combination of cunning and cowardice.

Marietta seems to be more of a poor decision-maker than a coward. She had succumbed to peer (or best friend) pressure from Cho and joined to DA against her actual wishes. Finally, she snapped.  

Fudge, oh, yes. Downright spineless.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 17 07:23:45 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 07:23:45 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <hvad6l+5lhl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvcii1+hla7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189355

> > Joey:
> > Actually, your reply made me think of something else too: who else was there Slytherin house who could have been the head of that house? OK, we had Lupin, Hagrid and Minerva for Gryffindor out of which Minerva seems to have got it. Wonder who else could have been there fo the other houses if not for Flitwick or Sprout or Snape. To which house did other professors Binns or Vector or Sinistra or Grubbly-Plank belong?
> 
> Potioncat:
> We don't know when he became Head of Slytherin. I wouldn't think he started out as Head, just I wouldn't think Neville did either. There are at least 12 different courses being taught. I'm sure there's another Slytherin in the mix. So Slughorn retires, Snape becomes Potionsmaster and someone else becomes Head of house.
> 
> Back to the Gryffindors. By the time Lupin and Hagrid become teachers, Minerva is already Head of House and Deputy Headmistriss. I think, but could be wrong, that she was Head of house during the days of the Marauders. I don't think she became Deputy till later. Although I don't think canon addresses it at all.
> 
> Speaking of Neville--he fills Sprout's place. That means there's an opening for Herbology teacher and for Head of Hufflepuff. I think someone at Hogwarts was promoted to head, and Neville was hired to teach.

Joey:

Good points. Agreed. It is also not clear who *can* become the Head of a House. Should that person necessarily have studied at Hogwarts as a student of that house? Or any teacher who has good subject matter expertise and leadership abilities would do?

> > Joey:
> > Brave *and loyal* person, I'd say, for it was his pure love for Lily that *primarily* drove him to do what he did.
> 
> Potioncat:
> Snape would have been a good Hufflepuff--very loyal.

Joey:

He seems to have a bit of all 4 houses, actually. :-)

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 17 07:41:32 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 07:41:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <4C19A0A5.0001E7.05392@SHEILA-PC>
Message-ID: <hvcjjc+mcqu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189356

Sheila Douglas wrote:
> James Potter was a coward until he got a clue. He went around hexing people just because he could and picked on those he thought weaker than himself. Harry saw that in Snape's Pensieve. Once he got a clue (thanks to Lily, probably), he became a champion for the weak and downtrodden, as did Sirius and Remus.

Joey:

I'd rather classify this as arrogance. He never knew what it was to be hexed. Finally, like you said, thanks to Lily proabably, he did deflate his pretty swollen head.

Sheila Douglas wrote:
> McGonagall had cowardly moments in that she didn't stand up to Albus about Harry's placement when she should have. Standing around disapproving didn't do the boy any good, did it?

Joey:

I think that was because she also had immense trust in DD's judgment and respect for his skills. I think she was torn between disapproval and trust.

Cheers,
~Joey, who wonders what Sheila has got say about Bellatrix in this context




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 17 13:03:14 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:03:14 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvc0r6+5im3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvd6ei+1093d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189357

Alla:
>
> If Snape would have given Harry an Outstanding for acknowledging his method
and still asked him to learn another one, different story. As it is, I am
doubting Snape's good faith.
>
> He did not even acknowledge Patronus in theory. I am not asking him to show it
in practice.
>

Pippin:
There is no canon for what Snape did or did not tell the class about the
patronus. <SNIP>

Alla:

Sorry, I was unclear. Yes, there is no canon as to what Snape told or did not tell class about Patronus in general. However to me Harry saying that he disagreed with Snape about his method of fighting dementors IS canon that Snape told class exactly nothing about the fact that Patronus can fight Dementors. That's what I meant, my bad.




Pippin:
<SNIP>
Now, Harry cannot be expecting
to change Snape's mind, so what is Harry's purpose in disagreeing with his
teacher? I doubt it's a compulsion to intellectual honesty: Harry certainly
wasn't troubled by that in his compositions for Trelawney!

I think Snape's fairness or lack of it is beside the point: Harry chose,
deliberately, to treat the subject in a way which he expected would annoy his
teacher. It's no different than poking a caged tiger with a stick, or charming
Goyle's toenails, IMO. The purpose is to provoke an angry reaction, one which
Harry knows cannot hurt him. He's not going to flunk DADA no matter what grade
he gets.

Alla:

Unless there is canon that Harry wrote this essay with the only purpose to provoke Snape, I think intellectual honesty is exactly why he did it. He does not give a flying fig about Trelawney's class so of course he will do anything to get a good grade in it. No, I do not think it is a good thing before anybody asks. But DADA is a subject which he KNOWS saved his life many times and would save his life probably again. He taught some of it by now. He knows that fighting Dementors with Patronus charm saved his life and his Godfather's life and we are surprised that he disagreed with Snape on some method unknown to him and untested in practice?

JMO,

Alla






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 17 13:26:37 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:26:37 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvc0us+4kqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvd7qd+10v28@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189358



Potioncat:
<SNIP>
We don't know if Snape himself compared the two methods or simply taught one. 

Alla:

I disgree. To me disagreeing with Snape's method is a clear indication that he only taught one. He does not say he disagreed with method that Snape preferred. IMO.

Potioncat:
We
don't know what mark Harry was given, or if Snape commented in any way on the
paper. At worst Harry must have gotten the score he expected--we don't read
later that Snape gave him an Outstanding nor do we learn that he made an
especially nasty remark or took any other notable action. We don't know if
Harry's essay answered the question, or went off on a tangent. All we know is
that Harry used the assignment to voice his opinion about the Patronum Charm. <SNIP>

Alla:

Sure, we do not know what mark Harry was given at the end, I however explained upthread why I believe that he got a low mark, I think otherwise he would most definitely commented on it. Unless you go with Pippin's reasoning that Harry would not have care to comment (as if it is so normal for Harry to get a good grade from Snape lol) on it. I do not buy it. IMO of course.

Pippin, you just commented in the post that I responded to that Harry wrote the essay on such important topic for him  that saved his life and life his loved one with the only purpose in mind to annoy Severus Snape, but Harry would not have commented if he got a good grade on it. Really? 






From no.limberger at gmail.com  Thu Jun 17 15:46:51 2010
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 08:46:51 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Snape and Dementors WAS: Re: CHAPTER 
	Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hv9aaa+fjmm@eGroups.com>
References: <hv8tqi+irqn@eGroups.com>
	<hv9aaa+fjmm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinQPtbfzHm9uXdONUuYE-FlarTpIyMoKaO7bfQ-@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189359

>Potioncat wrote:
>JKR said in an interview that the Patronum charm wasn't taught at Hogwarts,
so that
>means Lupin didn't teach it to his advanced students either. What did he
teach them,
>do you think? Maybe the same spell Snape teaches? Or perhaps a third
option?

No.Limberger responds:
Since dementors were intended to guard Azkaban and not leave from there,
it's
possible that teaching the Patronus charm wasn't regarded as a necessary
DADA
spell to teach at Hogwarts. So it's possible that defensive spells intended
to be used
against dementors may not have been taught at all.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jun 17 18:59:08 2010
From: ghost_chicken at sbcglobal.net (Sheila Douglas)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:59:08 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
References: <hvcjjc+mcqu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4C1A707B.00021F.05392@SHEILA-PC>

No: HPFGUIDX 189360

 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Joey Smiley
Date: 17/6/2010 2:46:36 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter
18: Dobby's reward
 
  <major snip>
Cheers,
~Joey, who wonders what Sheila has got say about Bellatrix in this context


Sile_dubhghlase (again with the soapbox):
Ah...dear old Trixie. I had said in my previous post that all Death Eaters
fell into the coward category, but Bellatrix LeStrange is a category all to
herself. This temptress of terror is a product of her environment, I think,
as is Narcissa; Andromeda, on the other hand, broke away from it like Sirius
did and like Regulus eventually wished had had. Since the Blacks were also
in that whole Pureblood supremacy trap, they were inbred too, although
probably not as closely as the Gaunts. In a word, Bellatrix was probably
mentally unstable growing up, and then became certifably insane.

We don't know much about Bellatrix' early life, other than what Harry found
out in the Pensieve in Dumbledore's office. She sat in that chained chair
like it was a throne and spoke as calmly and haughtily as could be about 
the Dark Lord" being found, his retribution, blah, blah, blah. Already, we
could see that she was at least fanatical, if nothing else. She was married
to an equally fanatical Death Eater, as was her sister, Narcissa. Bellatrix
surrounded herself with Voldemort and fully immersed herself in his
philosophy with a religious fervor. She was worse than a cultist who needs
to be de-programmed--an automaton of sorts.

She already enjoyed torturing and murder--that's something she picked up
from her master--but her roughly 14-year stint in Hotel Azkaban drove her
completely insane. Not only did she subscribe to that Pureblood supremacy
tripe, now she believed Voldemort was a god. Odd, considering the sod
disappeared after the attack on the Potters, so she and her little band of
fellow loonies felt the need to "find" him. Now, to the rational mind, if he
was such a god, he could have found them a lot quicker, and a baby wouldn't
have defated him.

DEs moved in (normally) unnecessarily large numbers for a reason. They were
rather stupid, not that talented, and complete cowards...just like their
beloved master. Cowards, I mean. Voldemort was neither stupid nor inept--a
waste, really. Never could Bellatrix (or any DE) engage in a fair fight
because she knew well that Alice and Frank Longbottom, two top Aurors, would
have put her and her husband in their graves in a heartbeat. Bellatrix was
powerful, sure, but not that talented or even that smart, really. Finesse
wasn't her long suit and the only real magic she was good at was the AK and
the Cruciatus...and she rarely made a decisive move without her master's
orders. No, the only way to get any information out of the Longbottoms
and/or put them down was with greater numbers and unforgivable curses.

Was Bellatrix LeStrange a coward? DEFINITELY. She never engaged in a fair fight if she could help it, but if she was faced with no other choice, she'd run. Was she crazy? She was a rabid dog that should have been put down rather than sent to Azkaban. All I can say is Molly Weasley should have won an OMFC for doing what the Ministry didn't.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Jun 17 22:19:52 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:19:52 -0000
Subject: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward  Snape's teaching
In-Reply-To: <hvc5ok+m3sl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hve728+i6rp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189361



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:

Nikkalmati
 
> I have wondered about this situation before.  All the teachers at Hogwarts are expected to teach students from ages 11 to 17.  In the US that would be part of elementary school, middle school (or junior high), and high school.  That's impossible.  Leaving out the number of class preparations, very few would have the personal skills to handle students of all those different ages and we certainly don't expect it of our teachers.  Snape is shown as being very bright or at least very academicly inclined.  Teaching the equvalent of chemistry to very young children would have been extremely stressful for someone of his abilities.  
> I think he may have liked teaching some of the older students.  He certainly took pride in his students' OWL and NEWT pass rates.  

Geoff:
This is not unusual in a UK situation.

When I started teaching, I taught in an 11-16 year old boys' school. 
When comprehensive schools began to be general under the Wilson 
Labour government of the late 1960s, I found myself in a 13-18 mixed 
High school and later again a 12-16 mixed when my Local Education 
Authority (LEA) opted for Sixth Form colleges.

in some ways, JKR was a trifle out of date when she started the HP books
because a majority of UK LEAs had gone down the middle school route
but there has been something of a swing back to transfer at 11+ or 12+
in recent years.

As a result, I found myself teaching across quite a wide age range at 
various times. To say it is impossible is not really true; you have to be 
able to adapt your approach to the differing maturity and skill levels in 
such a structure. 

Keeps you on your toes. :-)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jun 18 13:59:40 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:59:40 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvd7qd+10v28@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvfu4c+11ll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189362


> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sure, we do not know what mark Harry was given at the end, I however explained upthread why I believe that he got a low mark, I think otherwise he would most definitely commented on it. Unless you go with Pippin's reasoning that Harry would not have care to comment (as if it is so normal for Harry to get a good grade from Snape lol) on it. I do not buy it. IMO of course.

Potioncat:
Let me re-phrase. I think Harry probably got a low mark--just what expected. Not a higher or lower mark than he expected and not any extra snide comment in red on the margin of the paper. 

It's very likely Snape already knows that Harry can cast a Patronus--well yes, he's seen it. I'm not sure if it ever comes up that quite a few Hogwarts students can cast one.

I still think Snape had some valid reasons for not teaching it. I also know, from JKR's comments that no one else--not even Lupin--taught it at Hogwarts.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Jun 18 15:49:11 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:49:11 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvd7qd+10v28@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvg4ho+spq9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189363

 
> Potioncat:
> <SNIP>
> We don't know if Snape himself compared the two methods or simply taught one. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I disgree. To me disagreeing with Snape's method is a clear indication that he only taught one. He does not say he disagreed with method that Snape preferred. IMO.
> 

Pippin:
Canon says that Harry disagreed with Snape about the "best way  to tackle dementors." HBP ch 21.  That does imply disagreeing with the method Snape preferred.

It is also not true to say that canon never discusses other methods.

Some are not recommended: 

"Dementors are not to be fooled by tricks or disguises" says Dumbledore (POA ch 5). 

But a few desperate individuals succeed against the odds. Sirius uses his animagus form and its simpler thoughts both to protect his sanity and to escape Azkaban. 

The Crouch family succeeds  with a daring substitution. "The dementors are blind. They sensed one healthy, one dying person entering Azkaban. They sensed one healthy, one dying person leaving it." -GoF ch 35.

Sirius has another method as well.
"I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew I was innocent. That wasn't a happy thought, so the dementors couldn't suck it out of me...but it kept me sane and knowing who I am...helped me keep my powers" POA ch 19

This seems similar to what Harry does in DH ch 36.

"And now a chill settled over them where they stood and Harry heard the rasping breath of the dementors that patrolled the outer trees. They would not affect him now. The fact of his own survival burned inside him, a talisman against them, as though his father's stag kept guardian in his heart."

We see there are thoughts are so powerful that they can protect a person from dementors, even without a wand. I can certainly imagine that would appeal to Snape, who disdains foolish wand-waving. If that was the method that Snape recommended, it was unwise of Harry to disdain it, and if he got a low grade then perhaps it was deserved. Especially as he had seen it demonstrated by Bella, who seems completely unaffected by the dementors who surround her at her trial.

Alla:
> Pippin, you just commented in the post that I responded to that Harry wrote the essay on such important topic for him  that saved his life and life his loved one with the only purpose in mind to annoy Severus Snape, but Harry would not have commented if he got a good grade on it. Really?
>

Pippin:
I don't think Harry wrote only to annoy Snape. I think he undertook a "viciously difficult" assignment with enthusiasm because he was passionate about the subject. But he knew that Snape would view any disagreement from him as cheek and he chose to do it even so. 

Note that Harry is not at all worried about what a bad grade will do to his reputation as a DADA expert, in contrast to his fears that messing up the antidote assignment will be the end of his reputation as a potions genius. So I don't think his grade mattered to him all that much, and he probably forgot it about it as soon as he'd handed the thing in. 
 

Pippin





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Jun 19 04:03:47 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 04:03:47 -0000
Subject: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward  Snape's teaching
In-Reply-To: <hve728+i6rp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvhfj3+3g37@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189364



 
> 
> Geoff:
> This is not unusual in a UK situation.
> 
> When I started teaching, I taught in an 11-16 year old boys' school. 
> When comprehensive schools began to be general under the Wilson 
> Labour government of the late 1960s, I found myself in a 13-18 mixed 
> High school and later again a 12-16 mixed when my Local Education 
> Authority (LEA) opted for Sixth Form colleges.
> 
> in some ways, JKR was a trifle out of date when she started the HP books
> because a majority of UK LEAs had gone down the middle school route
> but there has been something of a swing back to transfer at 11+ or 12+
> in recent years.
> 
> As a result, I found myself teaching across quite a wide age range at 
> various times. To say it is impossible is not really true; you have to be 
> able to adapt your approach to the differing maturity and skill levels in 
> such a structure. 
> 
> Keeps you on your toes. :-)
>

Nikkalmati

That's very good to know.  I didn't realize JKR was using a real life model here.  I thought perhaps she was relying of schools from the 19th century or something.  In the US the schools can be very large, but the age range is much smaller. 
Do you think there are enough teachers at Hogwarts or are there more teachers we don't see?

Nikkalmati




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jun 19 13:59:53 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:59:53 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvg4ho+spq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hviigp+pika@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189365



> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Canon says that Harry disagreed with Snape about the "best way  to tackle dementors." HBP ch 21.  That does imply disagreeing with the method Snape preferred.
> 
> It is also not true to say that canon never discusses other methods.


Potioncat:
Actually, in support of Pippin, the "best" way implies there were more than two methods discussed. 

Of course, the main reason we're all fired up is that Snape was involved. Would we have reacted differently if we had read that Harry was expecting a low grade on his essay because he disagreed with a topic as taught by McGonagall/Lockhart/Umbridge/Slughorn/etc? 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 19 15:04:47 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:04:47 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hviigp+pika@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvimaf+rbhr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189366

 
> Potioncat:
> Actually, in support of Pippin, the "best" way implies there were more than two methods discussed. 

Alla:

I disagree. But surely we can agree that Harry's method was not discussed?

Potioncat: 
> Of course, the main reason we're all fired up is that Snape was involved. Would we have reacted differently if we had read that Harry was expecting a low grade on his essay because he disagreed with a topic as taught by McGonagall/Lockhart/Umbridge/Slughorn/etc?


Alla:

I do not know about fired up, but yes I would have certainly thought that this would be an example of teacher no matter who this teacher is treated Harry unfairly.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 19 15:23:10 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:23:10 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvg4ho+spq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvincu+10md6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189367


Pippin:
>> It is also not true to say that canon never discusses other methods.

Alla:

I remember some of your examples and forgot some, however I would not call ANY of your examples as method of fighting dementors. So we are working from different understanding of what fighting them means. Read on.

Pippin: 
> Some are not recommended: 
> 
> "Dementors are not to be fooled by tricks or disguises" says Dumbledore (POA ch 5). 
> 
> But a few desperate individuals succeed against the odds. Sirius uses his animagus form and its simpler thoughts both to protect his sanity and to escape Azkaban. 

Alla:

Okay, Dumbledore speaks so generally that it never entered my mind to call it the method of fighting Dementors. It was to me more like, going to Frobidden forest is stupid kind of thing. Sure, I agree that Sirius was RESISTING Dementors, he was protecting his sanity. In mind fighting them means driving them away, as in war fighting, enemy soliders even if they are not killed would retreat even temporarily, right? In Sirius' case Dementors were right there. Sirius was protecting himself but not fighting them IMO.


Pippin: 
> The Crouch family succeeds  with a daring substitution. "The dementors are blind. They sensed one healthy, one dying person entering Azkaban. They sensed one healthy, one dying person leaving it." -GoF ch 35. <SNIP>

Alla:

I guess  for me it counts as protecting themselves too, fighting anything in this one would be even a bigger stretch to me. IMO of course.

Pippin:
<SNIP other two canon examples>
> We see there are thoughts are so powerful that they can protect a person from dementors, even without a wand. I can certainly imagine that would appeal to Snape, who disdains foolish wand-waving. If that was the method that Snape recommended, it was unwise of Harry to disdain it, and if he got a low grade then perhaps it was deserved. Especially as he had seen it demonstrated by Bella, who seems completely unaffected by the dementors who surround her at her trial.

Alla:

Ah, but now you are characterizing it as protecting person from Dementors as well. I doubt that Harry would have disdained too, a) because as you say he uses it in DH and he knows that Sirius used it as well. But I doubt that Snape offered it because to me it is not fighting, Dementors do not go away. I mean you stay sane, sure, which is a good thing.

> Pippin:
> I don't think Harry wrote only to annoy Snape. I think he undertook a "viciously difficult" assignment with enthusiasm because he was passionate about the subject. But he knew that Snape would view any disagreement from him as cheek and he chose to do it even so. 

Alla:

So? If he was passionate about the subject and wrote about it despite knowing that Snape may get annoyed to me that means that he was standing up for what's right with intellectual honesty and passion. Let me give you a real life analogy. Before I graduated from law school I majored in history in college. If my history teacher would have told me to write an essay about how Holocaust did not exist, or any other less loaded but undoubtedly wrong facts in history, you bet I will write an essay about Holocaust and what really happened. Yeah, even knowing that my antisemitic teacher would be really really annoyed. And yes, I would consider myself taking a stand, not writing it with the purpose to annoy the teacher, or at least that purpose would be very secondary. 

Pippin:
> Note that Harry is not at all worried about what a bad grade will do to his reputation as a DADA expert, in contrast to his fears that messing up the antidote assignment will be the end of his reputation as a potions genius. So I don't think his grade mattered to him all that much, and he probably forgot it about it as soon as he'd handed the thing in. 

Alla:

If the grade did not matter to him he would not have talked about it all, IMO. But we have to agree to disagree on that.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Jun 19 17:58:49 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 19 Jun 2010 17:58:49 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/20/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1276970329.516.51867.m11@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189368

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 20, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
(The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2010 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20100619/21907bf8/attachment.html>

From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Jun 20 14:05:32 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:05:32 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvincu+10md6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvl77c+10d2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189369


> Alla:
> 
> I remember some of your examples and forgot some, however I would not call ANY of your examples as method of fighting dementors. So we are working from different understanding of what fighting them means. Read on.

Pippin:
We seem to be working from a different understanding of the idioms. I don't think you will find many English speakers who agree that "best" ever means "only". As Potioncat says, strictly speaking it ought to mean at least three things are being compared. Even colloquially, no one who said, "This is the best restaurant in New York" would be taken as implying there was only one. 

 And "tackle" is not the same as "fight". It does imply a struggle of some kind, but it could be a battle of nerves or wits, or simply a determination to master something difficult. One can tackle a tough assignment or a powerful opponent without any implication of violence at all.

Pippin




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jun 20 16:59:53 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Jun 2010 16:59:53 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/20/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1277053193.548.57391.m12@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189370

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 20, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2010 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20100620/612e0c6a/attachment.html>

From juli17 at aol.com  Sun Jun 20 22:15:49 2010
From: juli17 at aol.com (jules)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:15:49 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvl77c+10d2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvm3ul+ho1q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189371


>
> 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > I remember some of your examples and forgot some, however I would not call ANY of your examples as method of fighting dementors. So we are working from different understanding of what fighting them means. Read on.
> 
> Pippin:
> We seem to be working from a different understanding of the idioms. I don't think you will find many English speakers who agree that "best" ever means "only". As Potioncat says, strictly speaking it ought to mean at least three things are being compared. Even colloquially, no one who said, "This is the best restaurant in New York" would be taken as implying there was only one. 

Julie:
My assumption from Harry's mention of disagreeing with Snape on the "best" way to fight Dementors was that two or more methods were actually brought up in class. So I agree completely, Pippin. I don't know whether Snape brought up Patronuses (Patronii?) or Harry did, but if they disagreed then the method must have come up. 

And given Harry's attitude in Sixth Year, I'm going with Harry bringing it up. Perhaps when Snape was discussing his "best" method of fighting Dementors, Harry said (respectfully, of course--heh!) "That's still not as good as using a Patronus. Why don't you teach us that?" 

To which Snape may have replied, "Conjuring a Patronus is highly advanced magic, which is why we do not teach it at Hogwarts. And while it is a successful method when a wizard or witch has both the skill and the nerve to actually produce one, teaching something the majority of you will never be able to accomplish is hardly the best way to prepare you to survive a Dementor attack." 

Okay, it is more likely Snape said, "Should the unimaginable moment ever arrive when I desire *your* opinion, Mr. Potter, I shall certainly request it. Until then, five points from Gryffindor for interrupting my lecture."

But it still makes sense that several methods of repelling Dementors were offered, or even considered in combination (think happy thoughts, run for cover, shoot off giggling spells, or whatever...). Otherwise there wouldn't be a "best" method to highlight. 

Julie, who thought it was too bad we never heard what grade Harry actually got on his Dementor essay (as wouldn't it have been ironic if Harry had written out a well-reasoned and researched essay on a subject he was quite passionate about--which might be a first for him considering his typical study habits--and Snape actually recognized that quality essay with a quality grade?)






From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 21 01:08:41 2010
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 01:08:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post
Message-ID: <hvme2p+cnov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189372

This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space):
HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------
CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Chapter 1: Owl Post

In this chapter, we are reintroduced to the key events and characters of the series to date. The Dursleys have a new car they want everyone to know about. Ron tried to phone Harry, but botched it owing to his ignorance of this device and its use. Harry turns thirteen, and receives presents and mail from his friends. He learns Hermione vacationed in France with her parents, Percy was chosen to be Head Boy, and Ron took a trip to Egypt with his family and pet rat.

Questions for Discussion:

1) Ron bought Harry a Sneakoscope, Hermione bought him instructions and products for broom care, and Hagrid bought him  the book "Monster Book of Monsters".  What did you think of these gifts? What do they tell us about the senders and their relationships with Harry?

With his gift of the Sneakoscope, Ron also sends a story about it: how it kept going off and Percy thought it was broken, but Ron knew the Twins were putting beetles in Percy's soup. 

2) This story shows us several of the Weasleys interacting. What does it tell us about the actors? What do you like/dislike about the characters in this scene and how they are written?

3) This story is also our first clue to the big Scabbers/Peter surprise in the climactic scenes of the novel. What do you think of it in this context?

4) This chapter includes information relevant to the relationship between the Muggle and Wizard worlds, including Harry's History essay on witch burnings and Ron's ignorance of the proper use of a telephone. What light do these details shed on your understanding of this relationship?

In this as the third book of her series, Rowling devoted time in the first chapter to recapping events an persons of significance.

5) What do you think of her choice to do this in PoA and other books of the series? It is appropriate or unnecessary?

6) Do you like how she did it? Do you agree on her choice of things to re-introduce? Did you find reading these bits pleasant, annoying, repetitive, etc.?

7) Why do you think Dumbledore selected Percy to be Head Boy? Do you agree or disagree with this decision? The other Head Boys/Girls identified in canon are Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, James Potter, and Lily Evans. From this evidence, what do you think is involved in choosing Hogwarts Head Boys/Girls?

8) Please feel free to add your own questions.


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33
Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 2 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). (PLEASE, please, pretty please?)





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 21 03:22:05 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 03:22:05 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvl77c+10d2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvmlst+2jlb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189373






> Pippin:
> We seem to be working from a different understanding of the idioms. I don't think you will find many English speakers who agree that "best" ever means "only". As Potioncat says, strictly speaking it ought to mean at least three things are being compared. Even colloquially, no one who said, "This is the best restaurant in New York" would be taken as implying there was only one. <SNIP>

Alla:

Ah but I agree about restaurant's example. You have to compare the foods in many restaurants to indeed decide which one is the best one and while it may sound ridiculous to you, I do not think you have to compare the methods of fighting dementors to say that they disagreed on the best one. Or let me put it this way, I think you do not have to do that if you are Snape, yes even if it goes against the correct way to intepret idiom of English language. I can totally see Snape NOT ever bring up any OTHER methods and call his the BEST one and expect his students to take it on faith. Simply because his arrogant highness deemed his method the best in my opinion.

After all when he came to take over Lupin's lesson he did not ask Lupin's students whose method of teaching the material was the best. He just took the werewolves out of order and deemed that this would be for the best. And no, I do not think that this is a direct analogy, I understand how it is flawed in some way, but to me it works in a sense that it shows to me his arrogant and superior way of thinking. He who supposedly knows everything. Never mind that Kappa of course.

JMO,

Alla





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun 21 15:14:55 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:14:55 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvmlst+2jlb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvnvlf+56nt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189374

 
> Alla:
. I can totally see Snape NOT ever bring up any OTHER methods and call his the BEST one and expect his students to take it on faith. Simply because his arrogant highness deemed his method the best in my opinion.
> 

Pippin:
I agree that Snape would  not allow Harry (or any other student) to disagree with him in class. But you do understand that if he called it the best, he acknowledged there were other methods even if he refused to discuss them? JKR  makes a joke about this feature of English in CoS. 

"Professor Dumbledore obviously thought he was the best man for the job--"
"He was the *on'y* man for the job," said Hagrid, offering them a plate of treacle fudge, while Ron coughed squelchily into his basin. "An' I mean the *on'y* one."

Harry himself has doubts about the usefulness of learning the patronus charm in a classroom setting, "as Harry kept reminding them, producing a Patronus in the middle of a brightly lit classroom when they were not under threat was very different to producing it when confronted by something like a dementor." --OOP ch27

I do not think Snape's reluctance to teach the charm has anything to do with his ego or his need to conceal his own patronus. Lupin taught it to Harry without revealing what his own patronus was. But Lupin's lessons only got Harry as far as producing the incomplete patronus. Since that only holds the dementor at bay while draining the wizard of his power, it is in the end no better than a trap, unless other help arrives.
 
If Lupin had thought there was any chance of Harry encountering dementors on his own, away from the protection of other wizards, I wonder if even  he would have suggested the patronus charm? As it is, he's constantly wondering if it's too advanced.

Pippin





From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 21 14:27:59 2010
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (poohmeg20)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:27:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post
In-Reply-To: <hvme2p+cnov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvnstf+n7c2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189375

<Snip of very nice summary>
> 
> Questions for Discussion:
> 
> 1) Ron bought Harry a Sneakoscope, Hermione bought him instructions and products for broom care, and Hagrid bought him  the book "Monster Book of Monsters".  What did you think of these gifts? What do they tell us about the senders and their relationships with Harry?
> 

Megan:

I thought they all seemed pretty appropriate to the characters - most of us, on some level, give gifts that we would like to get ourselves if we were in the other person's situation - and I could definitely see each of the three givers picking these out.

> With his gift of the Sneakoscope, Ron also sends a story about it: how it kept going off and Percy thought it was broken, but Ron knew the Twins were putting beetles in Percy's soup. 
> 
> 2) This story shows us several of the Weasleys interacting. What does it tell us about the actors? What do you like/dislike about the characters in this scene and how they are written?
> 

Megan:

I thought it was well-written - with the exception of the magic, a similar scene could have probably taken place in many real-life families I know!

> 3) This story is also our first clue to the big Scabbers/Peter surprise in the climactic scenes of the novel. What do you think of it in this context?
> 

Megan:

I really didn't see it coming the first time I read the book - of course, looking back now, everything is through the filter of knowing how it ends, but at the time it didn't seem any more important than all the other details that JKR includes in the stories to make them so interesting.

> 4) This chapter includes information relevant to the relationship between the Muggle and Wizard worlds, including Harry's History essay on witch burnings and Ron's ignorance of the proper use of a telephone. What light do these details shed on your understanding of this relationship?
> 

Megan:

When I first read the book, I thought it was funny because it was really one of the earlier times in the series that she showed how muggles seem as strange to wizards as they seem to us. I thought that was a good thing to include, since it made wizards seem more "normal" in the sense that they have their own biases and quirks.

> In this as the third book of her series, Rowling devoted time in the first chapter to recapping events an persons of significance.
> 
> 5) What do you think of her choice to do this in PoA and other books of the series? It is appropriate or unnecessary?
> 

Megan:

I didn't think it was too heavy-handed - especially compared to a lot of other series, both for children and adults, where there is much more reiteration at the beginning of each book. I didn't start reading the books until after this one came out, so I read it fairly soon after having finished CoS, but it still wasn't annoying. I find it helpful when I start reading a book that is not the first in the series to have a little refresher of what's going on, personally.
> 6) Do you like how she did it? Do you agree on her choice of things to re-introduce? Did you find reading these bits pleasant, annoying, repetitive, etc.?
> 
> 7) Why do you think Dumbledore selected Percy to be Head Boy? Do you agree or disagree with this decision? The other Head Boys/Girls identified in canon are Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, James Potter, and Lily Evans. From this evidence, what do you think is involved in choosing Hogwarts Head Boys/Girls?
> 

Megan:

Since we don't really have that concept in American schools, I was never really sure what was involved with being selected. I don't think it was ever mentioned that they had to apply, so they must just be selected by the teachers and/or headmaster. Maybe the teachers who are the heads of each house select them? Since the head boy seems to be in charge of enforcing compliance with school rules, Percy would be a good choice since he certainly seems familiar with the rules and is not hesitant to remind others of them. He and James Potter seem like complete opposites, though, so that must not always be the deciding factor. Perhaps Dumbledore selects people that he wants to be able to keep a close eye on, so they will be in a visible role and less able to do things out of his sight. 


> 8) Please feel free to add your own questions.
> 

Megan:

These were great questions! The only thing I would add is that when I first read it, for some reason I thought Wendelin the Weird would come up again - or at least the concept of why she liked to be burned, since that was so odd. Did anyone else think that would come up again?




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 21 18:39:39 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:39:39 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvnvlf+56nt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvoblb+hcbs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189376



Pippin:
I agree that Snape would not allow Harry (or any other student) to disagree
with him in class. But you do understand that if he called it the best, he
acknowledged there were other methods even if he refused to discuss them? JKR 
makes a joke about this feature of English in CoS.

"Professor Dumbledore obviously thought he was the best man for the job--"
"He was the *on'y* man for the job," said Hagrid, offering them a plate of
treacle fudge, while Ron coughed squelchily into his basin. "An' I mean the
*on'y* one." <SNIP>


Alla:

Do I understand that he acknowledged that other methods exist in his head if the word  *best* is being brought? Sure. Do I think that he brought those other methods  in class - no, absolutely not. Of course I understand that it could be seen differently by different people.

And my biggest question is how  Snape acknowledging in his head that other methods exist show that Snape was being fair to Harry? 

As an aside I also think that there is no way Harry would have discarded the method even to hold Dementors off, if it was any variation of what Sirius was doing. Simply because Harry knew it DID work.

No, I am convinced that in addition to knowing that his method worked, Harry discarded Snape's method because Snape did not convince him that it will be working first and foremost. IMO of course. But if Harry explained it in detail with good reasoning and all that, I think he should have gotten an Outstanding. I do not know yet what is happening in american schools, child in my family only starts school this year. But I am hoping that at least in lab lessons good teachers acknowledge results even if one arrived there by different method from what teacher required. 

And as to Snape's ego being the reason why in my opinion he would never brought up any other method, well on this we just have to agree to disagree. 




From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jun 21 20:45:36 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:45:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post
In-Reply-To: <hvme2p+cnov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvoj1g+9krf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189377


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ZaraG" <zgirnius at ...> wrote:

> 1) Ron bought Harry a Sneakoscope, Hermione bought him instructions and products for broom care, and Hagrid bought him  the book "Monster Book of Monsters".  What did you think of these gifts? What do they tell us about the senders and their relationships with Harry?

AM - Well, they're all practical. Even when their use is not immediately obvious, the gifts are all thoughtful and useful. I always wondered what gifts Harry sent to his friends, and when he could have got them, or if he just didn't 'get' the whole gift-giving thing at all?
> 
> With his gift of the Sneakoscope, Ron also sends a story about it: how it kept going off and Percy thought it was broken, but Ron knew the Twins were putting beetles in Percy's soup. 

AM    8-)   Just what Harry needs at 4 Privet Drive!
> 
> 2) This story shows us several of the Weasleys interacting. What does it tell us about the actors? What do you like/dislike about the characters in this scene and how they are written?

AM - Weasleys - you've got to love them. They're so rich and varied, even if they're not thoughtful or sensitive or sensible. Even if you want to slap them or shake them.
> 
> 3) This story is also our first clue to the big Scabbers/Peter surprise in the climactic scenes of the novel. What do you think of it in this context?

AM - This is the sort of thing that completely sold me on JKR's story. She'd worked it all out, little things that you paid no attention to turned out to be full of meaning and pivotal to the story. The best kind of story-telling.
> 
> 4) This chapter includes information relevant to the relationship between the Muggle and Wizard worlds, including Harry's History essay on witch burnings and Ron's ignorance of the proper use of a telephone. What light do these details shed on your understanding of this relationship?
> 
> In this as the third book of her series, Rowling devoted time in the first chapter to recapping events an persons of significance.
> 
> 5) What do you think of her choice to do this in PoA and other books of the series? It is appropriate or unnecessary?

AM - As this was the first book of the series I read, I found the recap perfect - it led me into the HPverse with enough detail that I followed the story, but without overdoing it - I read this one in a couple of days then read to the first and second books, then PoA again.
> 
> 6) Do you like how she did it? Do you agree on her choice of things to re-introduce? Did you find reading these bits pleasant, annoying, repetitive, etc.?

AM - On the many re-reads I skim the first chapter recaps, but there still are bits that grab me - the bit about Hedwig being the only living creature that didn't flinch when she saw Harry, for instance. Every time.
> 
> 7) Why do you think Dumbledore selected Percy to be Head Boy? Do you agree or disagree with this decision? The other Head Boys/Girls identified in canon are Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, James Potter, and Lily Evans. From this evidence, what do you think is involved in choosing Hogwarts Head Boys/Girls?

AM - I think it's in the personal gift of the Headmaster or Mistress, and it's an indication of how the world out there will work. Nobody is going to make Nevile Head Boy, after all, even if he comes into his own and is a hero.
> 
> 8) Please feel free to add your own questions.

AM - I thought Hagrid was going to play more of a pivotal role somewhere in the series - The Keeper of Grounds and Keys - but JKR kept relegating him to the comic relief. Did anyone else wait for a bigger, more tragic, serious role for Hagrid?


Thanks for the summary and questions; it's lovely working back through the series once again!




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jun 22 02:00:30 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:00:30 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvoblb+hcbs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvp5fu+vjpm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189378

Alla: 
> No, I am convinced that in addition to knowing that his method worked, Harry discarded Snape's method because Snape did not convince him that it will be working first and foremost. IMO of course. But if Harry explained it in detail with good reasoning and all that, I think he should have gotten an Outstanding. I do not know yet what is happening in american schools, child in my family only starts school this year. But I am hoping that at least in lab lessons good teachers acknowledge results even if one arrived there by different method from what teacher required. 


Potioncat:
We don't know what the question to the essay was, only that it was a difficult essay to write--we know that Harry used it in some way to show he disagreed. We don't know what Harry wrote. We know he expected a low grade. He didn't seem to expect to fail, nor does it appear he did. If the essay asked about the method(s) discussed in class and Harry answered that and also discussed Expecto Patronum, he should have expected a higher grade. If he bypassed the content taught in class and only discussed EP--then he deserved a low grade. 

The big difference I see is that Harry seems to think he'll get a bad grade and that's what he thinks he earned, while you seem to think he anticipates an unfair low grade.

That was part of what I was getting at about how we would react to this situation if it had involved a different teacher. If Harry turned in a paper to Mcgonagall and anticipated a low grade, readers might be more likely to think a low grade was part of her strict grading method and  that Harry knew he hadn't written a paper that really responded to the issue at hand.

In American schools--and this can varry wildly---if the essay answers the question, it should get a good grade. But in the sciences or maths, there may be a requirement to use a specific process or method and not using it would cause loss of points. The reason why is because it is important that a certain process is learned. 

Or here's one--not sure if it would ever be asked like this---"Describe Darwin's theory of evolution and provide three examples that support it."
If the student wrote, I don't believe in evolution, on the first day God said let there be light---then the student would probaly get a bad grade. If the student said the theory says blah blah blah and the three examples scientists use are 1, 2 3 and then goes on to say why he doesn't believe, then he's answered the question and stayed true to himself.

So, we're probably at our usual meeting place at this point--agreeing to disagree.






From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 22 11:43:51 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:43:51 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post
In-Reply-To: <hvoj1g+9krf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvq7ln+ai0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189379

> AM wrote: I always wondered what gifts Harry sent to his friends, and when he could have got them, or if he just didn't 'get' the whole gift-giving thing at all?

Joey:

It's true that we didn't see Hermione's birthday at all and saw Ron's birthday only once but we do get to see that Harry had a knack for giving thoughtful gifts. Giving Hermione the book she "wanted for ages" for Christmas (OoTP), gifting Mr Weasley with screws and similar stuff (OoTP again), presenting Ron with Keeper's gloves for his birthday (HBP), making Dobby's day with a gift of 365 pairs of socks (GoF)... 

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jun 22 13:15:50 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:15:50 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvoblb+hcbs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvqd26+9b92@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189380

 
> Alla:
 
> And my biggest question is how  Snape acknowledging in his head that other methods exist show that Snape was being fair to Harry? 
> 

Pippin:
You mean, is it fair to Harry that Snape thinks he knows more about tackling dementors than Harry does? Read on. 

Alla:
 But if Harry explained it in detail with good reasoning and all that, I think he should have gotten an Outstanding. 

Pippin:
Heh-heh. Harry is in the same boat as Snape. He can't tell how he drove off hundreds of dementors with the patronus spell, not without incriminating himself. And Snape is not supposed to know about it either, since he told Fudge that he had no idea what made the dementors retreat. 

As far as Snape knows, (or at least, is supposed to know), Harry's sole experience with real dementors is with the two he drove away from himself and Dudley. And if ever there was a time when a less conspicuous method of tackling dementors would have been useful, that was it. So that wouldn't be a good example, given that Snape's works, and he wouldn't have been teaching it if he thought it didn't. There is no canon, ever, of Snape  teaching a magical technique that is ineffective when properly performed. He has his many faults, but being Slinkhard isn't one of them. Snape, as we know, tests everything.

So what evidence could Harry have used? There isn't anything in books, or Hermione would have recognized the patronus spell when Lupin and Dumbledore cast it. 

Harry could cite Dumbledore's ability to drive off  the horde of dementors that attacked him at the Quidditch match. But as Snape says, what a wizard like Dumbledore can do doesn't really apply to anyone else. 

It's obvious that Dumbledore didn't want the patronus spell to become widely known even after the dementors defected. Perhaps he also regarded it as too dangerous for the average wizard to attempt, since, as I said, the incorporeal patronus can become a trap for the wizard who casts it.

I wonder what the other DA students put in their essays about it?

Pippin






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jun 22 13:49:07 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:49:07 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape and Dementors  WAS: Re: CHAPTER Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18:
In-Reply-To: <hvqd26+9b92@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvqf0j+msdl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189381

Pippin, inaccurately:
> As far as Snape knows, (or at least, is supposed to know), Harry's sole experience with real dementors is with the two he drove away from himself and Dudley.

Pippin:
Of course I should have said, Harry's sole *successful* experience with real dementors. Snape is aware that Harry succumbed to them several times in PoA.

Pippin

 




From kadede at skynet.be  Tue Jun 22 17:04:04 2010
From: kadede at skynet.be (Ka)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:04:04 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post
In-Reply-To: <hvme2p+cnov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvqqe4+7sb0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189383




[snipping the summary]> 

> Questions for Discussion:
> 
> 1) Ron bought Harry a Sneakoscope, Hermione bought him instructions and products for broom care, and Hagrid bought him  the book "Monster Book of Monsters".  What did you think of these gifts? What do they tell us about the senders and their relationships with Harry?

kadede:
I paid the presents little attention the first time I read the story, but upon rereading it found it funny that studious Hermione would send a broom kit, Ron the more practical sneakoscope but above all that it would be Hagrid to send the book ? it seemed to me that the presents came from the wrong people.
 
> With his gift of the Sneakoscope, Ron also sends a story about it: how it kept going off and Percy thought it was broken, but Ron knew the Twins were putting beetles in Percy's soup. 
> 
> 2) This story shows us several of the Weasleys interacting. What does it tell us about the actors? What do you like/dislike about the characters in this scene and how they are written?

kadede:
I was under the impression it was Bill that got pranked by the twins.
As one of 8 siblings I can fully understand the dynamics of a large family, including having a pair of twin brothers. It is of course different, there was fortunately no magic in our household (not sure to be disappointed or not LOL) but the teasing and pranking or embarrassing our older siblings was `normal'. For me it brought back memories of our own youth.
We already know the twins as prankers, Bill apparently falling for their prank just shows me he's been gone from daily contact with them for too long to have let his guard down around them.


> 3) This story is also our first clue to the big Scabbers/Peter surprise in the climactic scenes of the novel. What do you think of it in this context?

kadede:
At the time my first thought was how strange it was to have them take the rat with them, pet or not, but that was me thinking like the muggle I am ? just try going on holidays with a pet along. Again magic is the answer to all weird things going on.
 
> 4) This chapter includes information relevant to the relationship between the Muggle and Wizard worlds, including Harry's History essay on witch burnings and Ron's ignorance of the proper use of a telephone. What light do these details shed on your understanding of this relationship?

kadede:
We now know there's more to that separation but at the time of first reading these books it seemed perfectly normal to me ? it is like looking at a totally unknown tribe in the amazon with their own tools and habits ? or even some customs and habits from other civilised people who do things totally different from us ? not sure if me being a European has anything to do with that. I mean, we've seen American movies where there's a senior Prom or the hat throwing at graduation ... all things we don't do (at least not in my time ? I remember when Valentine's Day  was still just a cold day in February, not the first commercial high-point of the year after the X-mas and New Year's boom). Ron not knowing the phone is the same as Harry not knowing about the floo system ? they've never seen it or used it before.
 
> In this as the third book of her series, Rowling devoted time in the first chapter to recapping events an persons of significance.
> 
> 5) What do you think of her choice to do this in PoA and other books of the series? It is appropriate or unnecessary?

kadede:
It seems unnecessary to do so, but how could JK Rowling have ever known she'd land such devoted fans with her stories ... taking into account it was about a year since the last book came out, that would seem like a reasonable amount of time to go over the previous details ? like the recap they do when a new season of some or other soap starts up again.
I watched (via PC) the US episodes of Who Do You Think You Are (with Sarah Jessica Parker, Lisa Kudrow and others) where after each break a detailed recap came of the previous 7.5 minutes of `show' ? as if the commercial break gives you a memory charm to make you forget all about the show you're watching .... now THERE it is grossly inappropriate

 
> 6) Do you like how she did it? Do you agree on her choice of things to re-introduce? Did you find reading these bits pleasant, annoying, repetitive, etc.?

kadede:
Taking into account I bought the first four books in a boxed set (it was cheaper than buying them separate) I read the books in some 36 hours (pulling an all-nighter with book 4) so yes, it was a bit repetitive.
 
> 7) Why do you think Dumbledore selected Percy to be Head Boy? Do you agree or disagree with this decision? The other Head Boys/Girls identified in canon are Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, James Potter, and Lily Evans. From this evidence, what do you think is involved in choosing Hogwarts Head Boys/Girls?

kadede:
I didn't pay any attention to his being Head Boy other than the teasing opportunity for the twins, mainly because Harry himself didn't seem at all interested in the concept. Another factor I guess is that it is one of those cultural differences ... I'd heard about it via the Enid Blyton books in my youth and it was just something they had that we didn't.
 
> 8) Please feel free to add your own questions.

kadede's Question (and answer) :
Were you eagerly awaiting the publication of this third book ? Or were you at that time still oblivious about HP and his wonderful wizarding world ?
For me it was around the time of the publication of book 3 in the Dutch version that my sister recommended the series but the introduction fell flat as I did not take to the story at all. It wasn't until just before the publication date for book 5 was announced and while my sister demonstrated the advantages of DVD (and the language-dubbing possibilities) that I heard Alan Rickman/Prof Snape's first class lecture in the original English that I got interested in the story.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Jun 24 11:42:19 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 11:42:19 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post
In-Reply-To: <hvme2p+cnov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvvgar+qtgv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189384


Zara:

Questions for Discussion:

1) Ron bought Harry a Sneakoscope, Hermione bought him instructions and products
for broom care, and Hagrid bought him the book "Monster Book of Monsters". 
What did you think of these gifts? What do they tell us about the senders and
their relationships with Harry?

Potioncat: JKR used the three gifts to advance the story and develop characters. Hermione's gift reminded, or informed the reader how important Harry's broom was to him. It also shows how well she knows Harry. She got him something he would like and was useful.

 Ron's gift manages to tell us something about the Weasley dynamics and will play a role as the story moves along.. It's a practical gift from one standpoint, given the experiences Ron and Harry had their first two years.  Yet, it doesn't seem too reliable if it goes off for the least little thing. If the twins' jokes would set it off, it would never stop alarming!  Neither the reader nor the characters know that it's really reacting to Peter, not to the twins. That was a nice bit of misdirection on JKR's part. It's a forerunner for some of the magical instruments Moody uses in GoF and this situation might have warned us to be wary of those instruments coming later. IIRC, Crouch!Moody says one instrument is picking up all the students' lies about homework, so he turned it off. Again, it was picking up on his deception.

 Hagrid's gift was something of a surprise. A book? But if anyone would know about a biting book, it would be Hagrid. I thought he knew something about a class Harry would have, but I never guessed Hagrid would be the teacher. He's giving Harry the book as Harry's teacher now, he's fond of Harry and he's proud of his  new position. 


2) This story shows us several of the Weasleys interacting. What does it tell us
about the actors? What do you like/dislike about the characters in this scene
and how they are written?

Potioncat: It's a big, busy family?with hustle and bustle and rivalries and love and the conflict of different personalities living close.

3) This story is also our first clue to the big Scabbers/Peter surprise in the
climactic scenes of the novel. What do you think of it in this context?

Potioncat: Clue? I sure didn't get a clue. But it's a lot of fun now  to see that yes, there were clues. The Sneakacope going off , for example.

4) This chapter includes information relevant to the relationship between the
Muggle and Wizard worlds, including Harry's History essay on witch burnings and
Ron's ignorance of the proper use of a telephone. What light do these details
shed on your understanding of this relationship?

Potioncat: I don't think it's consistent. You'd think the head of misuse of Muggle Artifacts would have a better knowledge of Muggle items. Just the fact that so many wizarding folk marry Muggles, and that they live in the midst of Muggle areas make it difficult to understand how the wizarding world can be so separate and unaware. At the same time, it's funny and adds to the mystery of the wizarding world.

In this as the third book of her series, Rowling devoted time in the first
chapter to recapping events an persons of significance.

5) What do you think of her choice to do this in PoA and other books of the
series? It is appropriate or unnecessary?

Potioncat: I can remember thinking as I read the books for the first time that the recapping was smooth and didn't take away from the opening chapters. And I think it was a good idea. In the sense of each book being a stand alone book, characters needed an introduction and to a certain extent, events needed to be put in context.


7) Why do you think Dumbledore selected Percy to be Head Boy? Do you agree or
disagree with this decision? The other Head Boys/Girls identified in canon are
Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, James Potter, and Lily Evans. From this evidence, what
do you think is involved in choosing Hogwarts Head Boys/Girls?

Potioncat: Although Percy is a bit stuffy, he is honest, hard working and smart. I'd say he was a good choice. We don't know anything about the other students in his year to know if anyone else would have been better. When Percy breaks from his family, readers began wondering if he was more like Tom Riddle than we thought?and recalled his reading the book about prefects and power. I'm a little annoyed that we never learned about other Head Boys and Head Girls during Harry's years, nor that we never hear anything about prefects for Ginny's year.

Thanks for the interesting questions!






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun 24 15:31:16 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 15:31:16 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post
In-Reply-To: <hvme2p+cnov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hvvto4+p6lk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189385




Zara:
> Questions for Discussion:
> 
> 1) Ron bought Harry a Sneakoscope, Hermione bought him instructions and products for broom care, and Hagrid bought him  the book "Monster Book of Monsters".  What did you think of these gifts? What do they tell us about the senders and their relationships with Harry?

Pippin:
Hermione's gift seems the most thoughtful: she bought Harry something  he'd like but she wouldn't have considered for herself.  Ron's gift reminds me of Neville's Remembrall; it sounds like a really cool idea, but turns out to be almost useless in practice. As for the biting book, I find myself in agreement with Draco: why would you even think that was funny? 


Zara: 
> With his gift of the Sneakoscope, Ron also sends a story about it: how it kept going off and Percy thought it was broken, but Ron knew the Twins were putting beetles in Percy's soup. 
> 
> 2) This story shows us several of the Weasleys interacting. What does it tell us about the actors? What do you like/dislike about the characters in this scene and how they are written?

Pippin:
They seem like a fun family to be around, not ground down by their poverty and able to enjoy good fortune when it comes. They're certainly happier than the much better off Dursleys. 

We can see that Fred and George are equal opportunity pranksters and don't pick selectively on Percy. 

It's funny that Percy is so proud of his Head Boy badge that he's wearing it outside of school. 

There's the idea that Ginny needs special protection, not being allowed to go into the more gruesome tombs, which reinforces our mistaken idea that she's not very strong emotionally or magically, 


Zara:
> 3) This story is also our first clue to the big Scabbers/Peter surprise in the climactic scenes of the novel. What do you think of it in this context?

Pippin:
I noted this time that Ron "tall and gangling" had Scabbers on his shoulder and  his arm around Ginny's waist in the photo, which echoes Peter sitting between Lily and James in Moody's picture of the Order and also the photo of Peter with the other Marauders that Harry found in Sirius's old room. Peter, says Sirius, always wanted to have big friends who would protect him. 

Zara:
> 4) This chapter includes information relevant to the relationship between the Muggle and Wizard worlds, including Harry's History essay on witch burnings and Ron's ignorance of the proper use of a telephone. What light do these details shed on your understanding of this relationship?

Pippin:
I read an article recently comparing YA dystopias with those created for adults. It pointed out that  the purpose of the adult dystopia is to  provoke action before it is too late, but the YA reader doesn't have much power to change society. The themes are therefore not social but emotional: it's not about what to do to keep the world from being broken, it's about how it feels to find out that the world  you thought was safe and lovely is becoming (or in actuality always was)  an ugly and dangerous place. 

For that reason, the consistency of the world-building is less important than it is in science fiction. Ron's difficulties with the telephone aren't about the technical problems  of wizards trying to communicate with Muggles, but about the emotional distance those difficulties create. It will culminate in the tragic separation between Lily and her sister, but right now, it's being played for laughs. 

 Rowling here is still building the idea that the wizarding world is safe. It's unimaginable to Harry at this point that someone like Umbridge exists, or that open war between wizards and Muggles is any real danger. We get the impression that serious problems between wizards and Muggles belong to the distant past and were never that bad in the first place, and if the Dursleys don't like wizards, its because they, the Dursleys, are bad people. 

Zara: 
> In this as the third book of her series, Rowling devoted time in the first chapter to recapping events an persons of significance.
> 
> 5) What do you think of her choice to do this in PoA and other books of the series? It is appropriate or unnecessary?
> 
> 6) Do you like how she did it? Do you agree on her choice of things to re-introduce? Did you find reading these bits pleasant, annoying, repetitive, etc.?

Pippin:
I like it. I notice things that seem more significant now than when I first read them, for example how subtly JKR points out that the rebounding spell which was meant to kill Harry didn't kill Voldemort either. 


Zara: 
> 7) Why do you think Dumbledore selected Percy to be Head Boy? Do you agree or disagree with this decision? The other Head Boys/Girls identified in canon are Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, James Potter, and Lily Evans. From this evidence, what do you think is involved in choosing Hogwarts Head Boys/Girls?

Pippin:
We don't know who else Dumbledore could have picked. But the Head Boy and Girl seem to be responsible along with the prefects for the students' conduct outside of classes. It seems like the foremost qualification is to be comfortable in a leadership role. Lupin, who lacks that quality, will be as disaster as a prefect for that reason. 

Pippin




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 26 16:14:27 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:14:27 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 18: Dobby's reward
In-Reply-To: <huivvs+mvai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i05913+2cbn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189386

Potioncat wrote:
> By HBP the curse was a moot point. DD had only a year and LV would move into Hogwarts. DD knew that, and was hoping Snape would be Headmaster. 
> 
> I know it was important for DD to bring Slughorn back, but I think it was more than needing Slughorn that caused him to move Snape. Although now that I think about it, perhaps he wouldn't have moved Snape if he hadn't needed Slughorn. Thinking about it more, someone worse--ie another DE may have come into the DADA position if Snape had not.

Carol responds:
I think it was a combination of factors, not just all the points you listed but the fact that he needed Snape to kill him (which would, of course, activate the jinx or curse on the DADA position). If Snape really wanted that position as a kind of reward for all his long service, it was now or never. And he had never needed a skilled DADA teacher more, especially if that position also entailed dealing with Dark magic in the castle (for example, the cursed necklace and its effects on Katie Bell). He would have anticipated some problems of the sort from Draco, who would (I'm sure DD suspected) be more likely to use indirect methods to try to kill DD than to face him directly (which could happen only if Draco found a way to get DEs into the castle, a feat that DD apparently believed impossible--Draco had insufficient courage and too great a sense of self-preservation to confront DD alone.

Which is to say that, while he needed Slughorn for the memory, he needed Snape for equally important reasons. The only way to have them both would be to put Snape in the DADA position, leaving him as Head of Slytherin House, and give Slughorn the Potions position. So Snape is there in all his usual capacities (except, perhaps, potion making) and available for the deed that only he can perform, killing DD, when the time comes. (The Unbreakable Vow commits him doubly to committing that deed, and may have been one more reason to give Snape the DADA position in DH. To give it to him earlier would be premature; DD needed to be sure that Snape stayed around, and the uncursed Potions position was perfect for that purpose.)

The stage is set for the coming year--DD dead, the supposed DE and murderer Snape as Head Master to protect the students from the real DEs as far as possible, and Slughorn as both Potions Master and Head of House. If Snape survived, as I think DD expected, he could have returned as a non-DE headmaster with Slughorn still taking his place as Potions Master and HOH or stepped down and taken the now uncursed DADA position, probably resuming his duties as HOH from the likely-to-retire-soon Slughorn. Of course, he or the new headmaster would need a new Potions master soon, but Snape would be in a perfect position to recommend one of his former protegees in Potions class.

Carol, with apologies for babbling




From dzturtleshell at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 16:03:28 2010
From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:03:28 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 1: Owl Post
In-Reply-To: <hvme2p+cnov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i058cg+7dtt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189387

 Questions for Discussion:

1) Ron bought Harry a Sneakoscope, Hermione bought him instructions and products for broom care, and Hagrid bought him  the book "Monster Book of Monsters".  What did you think of these gifts? What do they tell us about the senders and their relationships with Harry? 

dzturtleshell: Hermione's gift is the most reflective of Harry, and is a great demonstration of Harry and Hermione's dynamic. In the books, especially up to this point, Hermione is more helpful than anything else. Whenever leisure activities are mentioned, it's usually Harry and Ron or Ron and Hermione. This is a very helpful gift to give him. 

I feel like Hagrid's and Ron's gifts are more geared toward things the gift-giver would want or find interesting. But, these gifts are also a good demonstration of both characters roles of introducing Harry to the wizarding world  and the wonders it holds - Hagrid and Ron are the first two wizards that Harry spent any real quality time with and they are the ones he turns to when he needs info about the wizarding world. 

2) With his gift of the Sneakoscope, Ron also sends a story about it: how it kept going off and Percy thought it was broken, but Ron knew the Twins were putting beetles in Percy's soup. This story shows us several of the Weasleys interacting. What does it tell us about the actors? What do you like/dislike about the characters in this scene and how they are written?

dzturtleshell: I think the point of Ron's story is to let the reader know (or at least plant the seed) that the Sneakoscope actually works. It creates dramatic irony and allows for the "I should've known!" feeling that most get later the book.

The story does provide some insight into the cohesiveness of the Weasley family. It shows that is just what they are: a family. Personally, I really respect the way the entire series promotes the importance of family and sticking together. From the confident and loving Weasley family to the insecure and greedy Malfoy family, each character will fight endlessly to protect their family and its honor.  (My two cents: I think today's society regards family relationships less and less important. Kudos to JKR for promoting the importance of where you came from)

3) This story is also our first clue to the big Scabbers/Peter surprise in the climactic scenes of the novel. What do you think of it in this context?


4) This chapter includes information relevant to the relationship between the Muggle and Wizard worlds, including Harry's History essay on witch burnings and Ron's ignorance of the proper use of a telephone. What light do these details shed on your understanding of this relationship?

dzturtleshell: I notice two things from these examples: First, although Muggles and Wizards are in close proximity physically, they are worlds apart on a personal (emotional?) level. Different cultures in our world can often be delineated geographically, and even cultures that are physicially closer to each other tend to have traditions and habits that are more similar to one another. All of these Muggles and Wizards live pretty close together, yet there are very few similarities between the groups. 

Second, there is a lot of ignorance and misunderstanding going both ways. Ignorance about other people creates fear which in turn creates hatred. The story about the witch burnings reminds us of what humans have actually done in history to those they didn't understand or were fearful of. The story about the telephone points out that Wizards also don't understand Muggles and that can create some apprehension. It makes it less surprising to the reader when we find out that there are some Wizards who would lead a war on Muggles.


5) In this as the third book of her series, Rowling devoted time in the first chapter to recapping events an persons of significance. What do you think of her choice to do this in PoA and other books of the series? It is appropriate or unnecessary?
> 
> 6) Do you like how she did it? Do you agree on her choice of things to re-introduce? Did you find reading these bits pleasant, annoying, repetitive, etc.?

dzturtleshell: The books came out far enough apart that a recap makes sense. Also, it allows people to pick up the series part of the way through. If I remember correctly, you don't get a recap at the beginning of HBP or DH which also makes sense to me, if you're going to start reading the series, it wouldn't do to start with one of the last 2 books of the series. 

Also, this is something I really wish Stephen King would have done with his Dark Tower series. The first half of the first book in that series is... well... difficult to get through, but the rest of the series is one of the most amazing things I've ever read. I'd like to recommend the series to others, but you can't just pick up book 2 and start reading, you'd have no clue what was going on and there's never a refresher for things you might have forgotten. JKR was really good at reminding you of things you might have forgotten - like when Harry realizes he's a parselmouth in CoS, she reminds us of the scene at the zoo at the beginning of the SS/PS.  


7) Why do you think Dumbledore selected Percy to be Head Boy? Do you agree or disagree with this decision? The other Head Boys/Girls identified in canon are Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, James Potter, and Lily Evans. From this evidence, what do you think is involved in choosing Hogwarts Head Boys/Girls?

dzturtleshell: In retrospect, I'm kind of surprised Percy was Head Boy. (It's probably so he could remain an authority figure that Fred, George, and Ron had to be a little more wary of because he could see through them better) 

All the other Heads had very strong characters, they were leaders, people that thought for themselves. We never saw much of Percy, but I remember thinking he was kind of a stick-in-the-mud, he followed rules because they were rules, he was inflexible, and not very free-thinking. Even Tom Riddle was flexible and free-thinking, he just used those qualities to promote evil. Later, after Percy graduates, it's even more apparent that he is a brown-noser, the guy who is always the right-hand man and is never the star of the show. (Now that I say this, I'm reminded a little bit of Peter Pettigrew)






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Jun 26 17:58:36 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 26 Jun 2010 17:58:36 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/27/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1277575116.502.13614.m14@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189388

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 27, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
(The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2010 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20100626/74958350/attachment.html>

From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jun 27 17:00:48 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 27 Jun 2010 17:00:48 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/27/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1277658049.16.43763.m4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189389

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 27, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2010 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20100627/1cf0c806/attachment.html>

From dzturtleshell at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 14:59:10 2010
From: dzturtleshell at gmail.com (dzturtleshell)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:59:10 -0000
Subject: Protecting Students
In-Reply-To: <hti52r+dn7a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i07ovu+t4lc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189390



Potioncat asks: Hogwarts, at the best of times, is a dangerous place. In the years we saw it--during Harry's term and in flashbacks-- there have been extra dangers. Who do you think did a better job of protecting students--Headmaster Dumbledore or Headmaster Snape? or overall in general Professor Dumbledore or Professor Snape?

Potioncat writes:
We know that the DEs didn't bother students at Hogwarts, and only went after them at home (Luna, for example.) I think it was Snape who prevented the Carrows from killing students. Big deal you say? Knowing how easily LV killed members of his inner circle, I doubt the Carrows would have qualms about killing unfriendly students. And it appears those who kept their heads down may have been out of harms way. 

dzturtleshell responds:
I agree! Personally, I think Snape had to face much more difficult circumstances the entire time he was HM. Dumbledore never had to protect students from constant, out-in-the-open threats. Before Draco figured out how to get DEs into the building, any evil-doing you were up to had to be kept secret. When I first read DH, I started out wondering how Snape could let some of the kids get roughed up, but quickly realized that was all it was, it wasn't something worse. Also, it was the kids you would expect to cause trouble and not go along quietly, if Snape wasn't there, I'm sure much worse would have happened to them.

Food for thought, how much of that was Snape's own personal concern for the safety of the students, and how much of it was Dumbledore's portrait hanging behind Snape's desk overseeing things every day?

As for Dumbledore vs Professor Snape, I again think Snape did a little better job of actually protecting (though I really see them as more of a team). Dumbledore wants everyone protected, but he's also very curious and wants to see what everyone (esp. Harry) can handle. 
"... He's a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help..." - Harry, SS/PS, Chapter 17. 
Harry knew as early as his first year that Dumbledore was taking some risks to let Harry try and take care of things himself. Maybe Dumbledore lets the students protect themselves a bit, then uses Snape as a back-up parachute, and Dumbledore himself as a back-up safety net. It's a bit risky, but I think the best teaching methods are the practical ones. 




From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jun 29 06:53:41 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 06:53:41 -0000
Subject: Protecting Students
In-Reply-To: <ht238q+936i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i0c59l+e04i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189391



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> Hogwarts, at the best of times, is a dangerous place. In the years we saw it--during Harry's term and in flashbacks-- there have been extra dangers. Who do you think did a better job of protecting students--Headmaster Dumbledore or Headmaster Snape? or overall in general Professor Dumbledore or Professor Snape?
> 
> Potioncat
>
AM now - Not just Hogwarts; the wizarding world is dangerous. Lupin gets bitten as a child, and he is pretty much banished from society at a stroke - if Dumbledore hadn't accepted him at the school, his life would have been very limited. Neville is dangled out of windows 'to bring his magic on' - no one seems at all concerned that if he wasn't magical, he would have died; but then, he would have been a squib, and beneath everyone's consideration. Harry is left with abusive relatives because it serves to keep him alive. He gets Mrs. Figg as a guard, who has no magic, and no way of protecting him should, say, a Dementor be set upon him as a small child.
There seems an odd disconnect between the shrinking wizard world (is it shrinking? Perhaps the size of Hogwarts, too large for the current school-age population, was always too large, and was a grandiose idea of the Wizarding world expanding which never happened?) and the casual carelessness with which the children are treated. Even the Weasleys, with Molly's mother hen attitude, have the twins creating explosions and pranks in their bedroom.
As to your question, I think Dumbledore seems to take a Wizarding view of children - let them find out for themselves - and Snape, a more Muggle conventional view - they must be restricted in what they do.
Sorry - I sort of went off on a tangent.

AmanitaMuscaria




From no.limberger at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 19:51:37 2010
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 12:51:37 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protecting Students
In-Reply-To: <i0c59l+e04i@eGroups.com>
References: <ht238q+936i@eGroups.com>
	<i0c59l+e04i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTintGyg9kFl1oDRPoCgl2N1N_Pp-uvK2R-6Osel3@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189392

>AmanitaMuscaria wrote:
>Not just Hogwarts; the wizarding world is dangerous. Lupin gets bitten as a
child, and
>he is pretty much banished from society at a stroke - if Dumbledore hadn't
accepted
>him at the school, his life would have been very limited. Neville is
dangled out of windows
>'to bring his magic on' - no one seems at all concerned that if he wasn't
magical, he
>would have died; but then, he would have been a squib, and beneath
everyone's
>consideration. Harry is left with abusive relatives because it serves to
keep him alive.
>He gets Mrs. Figg as a guard, who has no magic, and no way of protecting
him should,
>say, a Dementor be set upon him as a small child.

No.Limberger responds:
Anyone bitten by a werewolf is going to be ostracized, whether child or
adult and
for a very simple reason: people don't want to become werewolves. I don't
recall
reading that about Neville, but it seems unlikely that he would have been
allowed
to be severely injured. Harry was left with his aunt & uncle because
Dumbledore
believed that he would be safer there, in spite of how his aunt & uncle
would end
up treating him. Harry, after all, had just survived an attempted murder on
his life
and not all of LV's followers had been found.

>AmanitaMuscaria wrote:
>Even the Weasleys, with Molly's mother hen attitude, have the twins
creating
>explosions and pranks in their bedroom.

No.Limberger responds:
The twins were teenagers and never left anyone permanently injured as a
result of
their pranks.

>AmanitaMuscaria wrote:
>As to your question, I think Dumbledore seems to take a Wizarding view of
children -
>let them find out for themselves - and Snape, a more Muggle conventional
view -
>they must be restricted in what they do.

No.Limberger responds:
Dumbledore did plenty to protect students from harm. As for Snape, given his
childhood, he probably just doesn't trust them and only finds solace when he
believes they're controlled.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean56 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 21:04:24 2010
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:04:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protecting Students
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTintGyg9kFl1oDRPoCgl2N1N_Pp-uvK2R-6Osel3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ht238q+936i@eGroups.com>
	<i0c59l+e04i@eGroups.com>
	<AANLkTintGyg9kFl1oDRPoCgl2N1N_Pp-uvK2R-6Osel3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikLgppMtUiLHU6EgrUE0Ajbr2bre9bLMRNEAvFp@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189393

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 1:51 PM, No Limberger <no.limberger at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >AmanitaMuscaria wrote:

> >AmanitaMuscaria wrote:
> >As to your question, I think Dumbledore seems to take a Wizarding view of
> >children - let them find out for themselves - and Snape, a more Muggle
> >conventional view - they must be restricted in what they do.
>
> No.Limberger responds:
> Dumbledore did plenty to protect students from harm. As for Snape, given his
> childhood, he probably just doesn't trust them and only finds solace when he
> believes they're controlled.

Another thing that occurs to me is how much =older= Dumbledore is than
Snape.  Whether you peg his age as 150 or a mere 115, he was still
born in the 19th century, when even Muggles had a much different
attitude to risk (for children or anyone else) than they did by the
late 20th century.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>



From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jun 29 22:21:28 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 22:21:28 -0000
Subject: Protecting Students
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTintGyg9kFl1oDRPoCgl2N1N_Pp-uvK2R-6Osel3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <i0drl8+9oe6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189394



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, No Limberger <no.limberger at ...> wrote:
>
> >AmanitaMuscaria wrote:
> >Not just Hogwarts; the wizarding world is dangerous. Lupin gets bitten as a
> child, and
> >he is pretty much banished from society at a stroke - if Dumbledore hadn't
> accepted
> >him at the school, his life would have been very limited. Neville is
> dangled out of windows
> >'to bring his magic on' - no one seems at all concerned that if he wasn't
> magical, he
> >would have died; but then, he would have been a squib, and beneath
> everyone's
> >consideration. Harry is left with abusive relatives because it serves to
> keep him alive.
> >He gets Mrs. Figg as a guard, who has no magic, and no way of protecting
> him should,
> >say, a Dementor be set upon him as a small child.
> 
> No.Limberger responds:
> Anyone bitten by a werewolf is going to be ostracized, whether child or
> adult and
> for a very simple reason: people don't want to become werewolves.

AM now - Well, they wouldn't become werewolves, except for around full moon, but that doesn't seem to be the fear; it just seems to be a general fear. We're not actually told what happens when Fenrir bites children when it's not full moon, and no other werewolf is stated to bite when not in werewolf mode.
> I don't recall
> reading that about Neville, but it seems unlikely that he would have been
> allowed
> to be severely injured.
AM now - Uncle Algie dangled Neville out of the upstairs window, then dropped him when he was distracted; Neville bounced down the road, which pleased them all, as it meant he was a wizard. (PS Ch.7) I suspect it wouldn't have gone so well if Neville had been a squib.
 
>Harry was left with his aunt & uncle because Dumbledore
> believed that he would be safer there, in spite of how his aunt & uncle
> would end
> up treating him. Harry, after all, had just survived an attempted murder on
> his life
> and not all of LV's followers had been found.

AM now - Indeed. And Hogwarts, The Burrow and the Quidditch World Cup, if nowhere else, certainly seem to be safe enough for Harry, even after Voldemort is resurrected, and Death Eaters are much more active. Little Whinging, on the other hand, is subject to a Dementor attack. Harry had to be at Privet Drive for the protections, and had to be mistreated for the story, but if you believe Voldemort is not finished, and if you believe your main chance of finally defeating Voldemort is Harry Potter, you don't leave him under the sole protection of an unknown spell, a family of Muggles who can't stand him, and a squib. Unless you're Dumbledore. 





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Jun 30 01:48:59 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 01:48:59 -0000
Subject: Protecting Students
In-Reply-To: <i0drl8+9oe6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i0e7qb+fm5s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189395

 
> AM now - Indeed. And Hogwarts, The Burrow and the Quidditch World Cup, if nowhere else, certainly seem to be safe enough for Harry, even after Voldemort is resurrected, and Death Eaters are much more active. Little Whinging, on the other hand, is subject to a Dementor attack. Harry had to be at Privet Drive for the protections, and had to be mistreated for the story, but if you believe Voldemort is not finished, and if you believe your main chance of finally defeating Voldemort is Harry Potter, you don't leave him under the sole protection of an unknown spell, a family of Muggles who can't stand him, and a squib. Unless you're Dumbledore.

Pippin:
Prior to their defection, no one thought the dementors would go anywhere so far from Azkaban without orders from the Ministry, and indeed they did not. After the split between the Ministry and Dumbledore, there was supposed to be a wizard on guard at Privet Drive all times,  not just Mrs. Figg. Unfortunately one of the  wizards was Mundungus Fletcher, who left his post. Nonetheless, the dementors did not approach Privet Drive. Harry was elsewhere in Little Whinging when they attacked. 

We could, of course, blame Dumbledore for choosing an unreliable person, but his options at that point were limited. Few wizards  could be counted on to resist both the Ministry and Voldemort. And it must be said in Mundungus's favor that he did not leave under pressure from either. 

Also, the love magic was not an unknown spell to Dumbledore, who had apparently been studying love magic for some time. It was unfamiliar to Voldemort, which is why Dumbledore chose it. 

I agree though that the purpose of the set-up is not to analyze various ways of protecting Harry but to explore what kind of circumstances could force a caring person to put a helpless person in a painful situation. 

The Burrow and the World Cup were under special protection while Harry was there, and at Hogwarts there was Dumbledore. And yet we see that the DE's were eventually able to infiltrate all three places, while they never were able to penetrate Privet Drive.

Pippin




From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 30 03:31:43 2010
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (Megan Real)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 03:31:43 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake
Message-ID: <i0edqv+uugq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189396

This message is a Special Notice for all members of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space):
HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
----------------------------------------------------------
CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake

Summary:
Harry hears muggle news reports about Sirius Black's escape, but the focus soon shifts to the impending arrival of Aunt Marge, who has been very unpleasant to Harry on her previous visits to the Dursleys. Harry gets Uncle Vernon to agree that he will sign Harry's Hogsmeade permission slip if Harry behaves like a muggle during Aunt Marge's visit. Harry almost makes it through the week, but loses his temper on the last day when Aunt Marge insults his parents. Realizing that he could be in big trouble in the wizarding world for inflating Aunt Marge, he packs up and runs away from the Dursleys' house.

Questions:

1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins?

2. Given the little glimpse of Harry's life with the Dursleys that we see at the beginning of each book, what do you think the Dursleys' neighbors believe to be the reason that Harry attends St. Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys? And do you think they are concerned that he is allowed to come home every summer?

3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control yourself as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age?

4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are watched as closely by the ministry to see if they perform magic during the summer? Why or why not?

5. OK, one more about Aunt Marge - can you think of any way in which she could have been written to be more unlikeable?

6. Anything else that caught your eye in this chapter that should be discussed?
NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33
Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 3 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you
would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please
drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).

Megan Real




From technomad at intergate.com  Wed Jun 30 04:10:19 2010
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 23:10:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban
	Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake
In-Reply-To: <i0edqv+uugq@eGroups.com>
References: <i0edqv+uugq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20100629231019.kluyma25ckow08k4@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189397

Quoting Megan Real <poohmeg20 at yahoo.com>:

----------------------------------------------------------
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake
>
> Summary:
> Harry hears muggle news reports about Sirius Black's escape, but the  
>  focus soon shifts to the impending arrival of Aunt Marge, who has   
> been very unpleasant to Harry on her previous visits to the   
> Dursleys. Harry gets Uncle Vernon to agree that he will sign Harry's  
>  Hogsmeade permission slip if Harry behaves like a muggle during  
> Aunt  Marge's visit. Harry almost makes it through the week, but  
> loses his  temper on the last day when Aunt Marge insults his  
> parents.  Realizing that he could be in big trouble in the wizarding  
> world for  inflating Aunt Marge, he packs up and runs away from the  
> Dursleys'  house.
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person   
> hits a 5-year old in the shins?

Aunt Marge, like the Dursley parents themselves, is a Roald Dahl-esque  
caricature.  That said, her treatment of Harry is intended to mark her  
out as a deserving target for Harry's eventual accidental magic.  If  
she'd been nice to Harry and he inflated her and ran off, the audience  
might be less sympathetic to him.


>
> 2. Given the little glimpse of Harry's life with the Dursleys that   
> we see at the beginning of each book, what do you think the   
> Dursleys' neighbors believe to be the reason that Harry attends St.   
> Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys? And do you think  
>  they are concerned that he is allowed to come home every summer?

I've had my doubts about the Dursleys' relations with their neighbors  
for quite some time.  I grew up in a small town; the adults I knew all  
knew which children went with which parents, and they'd have been  
getting reports from their own kids about the way a Dudley Dursley  
behaved which wouldn't jibe at all with what the Dursleys themselves  
said.  I wouldn't be surprised if the neighbors thought that _Dudley_  
was the one at St. Brutus', (assuming that they believe there is such  
an institution, or that the British type of reform school allows its  
inmates to come home for the hols...they don't, and this is common  
knowledge) and that the Dursleys were throwing all the blame on Harry.


>
> 3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control yourself  
>  as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age?

I was brought up to be respectful to my elders, but in Harry's boots,  
I think I'd have figured out a way to make myself _extremely_ scarce  
for the time Aunt Marge was there.  That said, my parents wouldn't  
have tolerated Marge's behavior for one minute---the "Ripper" incident  
alone would have ensured that she was sent back home and told she was  
no longer welcome.


>
> 4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are watched as  
>  closely by the ministry to see if they perform magic during the   
> summer? Why or why not?

How could the Ministry tell when, say, one of the Weasley kids is  
doing magic from when Arthur or Molly is?  Wizard homes run on magic.   
And a family that's "in the know" and not close to Muggle neighbors  
would be less likely to inadvertently let the cat out of the bag.

>
> 5. OK, one more about Aunt Marge - can you think of any way in which  
>  she could have been written to be more unlikeable?

Difficult to say; perhaps if she were making blatant advances on someone?




----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Jun 30 13:30:30 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 13:30:30 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake
In-Reply-To: <i0edqv+uugq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i0fgtm+l9n4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189398


> Questions:
> 
> 1. Seriously - what is wrong with Aunt Marge? What kind of person hits a 5-year old in the shins?

Pippin:
The same sort of person she is as a dog-fancier who drowns puppies. Childhood, to Marge, is not a protective cocoon -- it's a Darwinian contest from birth. Resources should not be wasted on the unfit, ie anybody who might take them away from her Dudders. 

Megan: 
> 2. Given the little glimpse of Harry's life with the Dursleys that we see at the beginning of each book, what do you think the Dursleys' neighbors believe to be the reason that Harry attends St. Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys? And do you think they are concerned that he is allowed to come home every summer?

Pippin:
I doubt they believe the St Brutus story and I'm sure they know Dudley is a bully. But they probably think there's something odd and possibly very wrong about Harry too. Their kids will  be aware of the weird stuff that happens when Harry's around. Best not to get involved. It isn't all wizard concealment that allows the WW its clandestine existence. There's a great deal of Muggle denial involved as well. 

Megan:
> 3. Back to Aunt Marge - would you have been able to control yourself as long as Harry did? How about when you were his age?
> 
Pippin:
Harry's had a lot of practice. He's also about  the age when I discovered that it was in fact possible to pretend that what the bullies said didn't bother you, so yes, I think I could have done it. 

> 4. Do you think that students from wizarding families are watched as closely by the ministry to see if they perform magic during the summer? Why or why not?

Pippin:
We know that there's a special degree of watchfulness on Privet Drive. The ministry wants to know if magic is being performed in Harry's vicinity, in light of previous events, as Fudge puts it somewhere. Unfortunately the Trace apparently can't detect any difference between a hover charm performed by a wizard and one performed by a House Elf. And what would a House Elf be doing at Privet Drive? 

I suppose the person monitoring for magical activity at Privet Drive in CoS wanted to show that they were on the job and referred the matter to Mme Hopkirk without considering what the consequences for Harry would be.


Megan: 
> 5. OK, one more about Aunt Marge - can you think of any way in which she could have been written to be more unlikeable?

Pippin:
Oh yes. She could pretend to have Harry's best interest at heart and have a quill that makes him cut words into his hand. 

> 
> 6. Anything else that caught your eye in this chapter that should be discussed?

Pippin:
There is a lot of talk in this chapter about people getting what they deserve. Do people get what they deserve in the Potterverse? Or is that a myth which the characters use to explain away the arbitrary inequalities in their lives?

Pippin