From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Mar  2 00:46:09 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:46:09 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 9 The Writing on the Wall
Message-ID: <hmhn4h+3l1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189002

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Chapter Discussion: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Chapter 9: The Writing on the Wall.

This chapter is packed full of important information, so I hope you'll read it yourself, but here are the headlines:

Dumbledore determines that Mrs. Norris is not dead and can be cured.
Ron explains about Squibs.
Professor Binns lectures on the Chamber of Secrets.
The Trio visit Moaning Myrtle's toilet.
There are a few tense moments between Ron and Percy, as we learn how upset Ginny is. The Trio plan to use Polyjuice Potion to spy on Draco.

1. This chapter is very funny. Why do you think JKR used so much comedy just as she's introducing the idea of the Chamber of Secrets?

2. What is Snape up to with his "Wrong place at the wrong time" speech?

3. What would have happened if Harry had told Dumbledore about the voices?

4. Why didn't JKR introduce Squibs in SS/PS?

5. How does the explanation of Salazar's reasons for excluding Muggle-born students compare to contemporary wizards' reasons? (Malfoy, Black, etc.)

6. Are you surprised that Harry expected students to think he was Slytherin's heir at this time?

7. Ginny is  pale, upset, worried
how did these descriptions influence your opinion of Ginny the first time you read CoS, and how do you view the descriptions now?

8. Neither Ron nor Harry has heard of Polyjuice Potion---if you were their teacher what would your opinion of them be?

9. At one time this book was going to be The Half Blood Prince. Who knows what the plot would have been, but do you see any sections in this chapter that seem to foreshadow or parallel HBP?

10. What do you think of Binns' comment, "Just because a wizard doesn't use Dark Magic doesn't mean he can't"? Is this brought up in any of the other 6 books?

11. I have to confess, I had a really good question for this chapter that turned out to be based on movie contamination. I had such a bad case; I had to read the chapter several times before I accepted the event wasn't canon. All these years I thought it was an important moment in the Harry/Snape dynamic. So, what questions do you have?

Thanks to Zara for her assistance!

--Potioncat


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
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Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 10, "The Rogue Bludger", on March 7,
2010.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion,
please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 01:23:01 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 01:23:01 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets Ch. 6, Gilderoy Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <hknmj3+egm0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmhp9l+a4u0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189003

Since things are so slow around here, I decided to go back and find some chapter discussion questions I didn't answer earlier.

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
> Chapter 6: Gilderoy Lockhart. <snip>

> 
> 1. What did you think of the human-like characteristics and development of the mandrakes in light of the fact that they are ground up and used in potions?

Carol:
I thought that it was all part of JKR's sense of humor, along the lines of Donne's "get with child a mandrake root" only on a PG level (acne and entering each other's pots like teenagers having a party). In other words, fun with language and with the supposed (very slight) resemblance of a mandrake root to the human form. Since the class was Herbology, the Wizards obviously still considered them plants. It's not as if they were kittens being ground up for potions. (might find the treatment of animals disturbing if I took that aspect of the books seriously.
> 
> 2. Why do you think Professor McGonagall's class got such a short mention in this chapter compared to Professors Sprout and Lockhart? <snip>

Carol:
We've already met Professor McGonagall and know how she teaches, so there was no need to introduce her, in contrast to the new DADA professor, who is always an unknown. (Yes, we've met dear Gilderoy and are familiar with his ego, but we haven't seen him "teach." No further classes (other than the dueling club later) are necessary to establish his ineptitude. Professor Sprout is important for the first (and last) time in this book since she's growing the Mandrakes for the potion (which Snape actually prepares but gets too little credit for, IMO, especially in the MTMNBN). MG, in contrast, has no connection with the Mandrake potion (but does later find Colin Creevey and help to carry him to the Hospital Wing).

Carol, with apologies for the lateness of this response





From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 15:15:31 2010
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (poohmeg20)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 15:15:31 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 9 The Writing on the Wall
In-Reply-To: <hmhn4h+3l1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmja2j+just@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189004

<snip>
> 1. This chapter is very funny. Why do you think JKR used so much comedy just as she's introducing the idea of the Chamber of Secrets?

One of the things I love about the series is how seamlessly JKR blends humor into just about every situation - it makes the books much more fun to read, and often shows things about the characters that couldn't be communicated as well without humor. It's like real life - hardly any situation is completely serious or completely humorous - it's usually a blend.

> 2. What is Snape up to with his "Wrong place at the wrong time" speech?

As Dumbledore said, the magic required was way beyond what Harry could have done at the time - and Snape knows it. But he can't resist any opportunity to see Harry squirm, so he wants to take advantage of Dumbledore's sympathy for Filch and a possible opportunity for a token punishment.

> 3. What would have happened if Harry had told Dumbledore about the voices?

If he had told him in front of everyone, the other teachers probably would have thought he was crazy initially - but Dumbledore probably would have figured about about the parseltongue pretty quickly, and maybe could have known what he was looking for. So maybe telling him privately afterwards might have been better.

> 4. Why didn't JKR introduce Squibs in SS/PS?

There wasn't really an obvious place to bring it up - and it left something to reveal about Filch in this book.

> 5. How does the explanation of Salazar's reasons for excluding Muggle-born students compare to contemporary wizards' reasons? (Malfoy, Black, etc.)

In this chapter, it's a third-hand explanation of Salazar's reasons (Prof. Binns' retelling of a book someone else wrote about it), but if his primary concern was that Muggle-born students would not be trustworthy, that may have had some factual grounds based on the wizard-muggle relations described in Dumbledore's notes in the Tales of Beedle the Bard. The contemporary anti-muggle bias doesn't seem to be based on those concerns - it seems to be just generic snobbery.

> 6. Are you surprised that Harry expected students to think he was Slytherin's heir at this time?

Not really - I think from the beginning he knew that other students would always be gossiping about him because he was different, and he's already had some evidence of that by this time.

> 7. Ginny is  pale, upset, worried how did these descriptions influence your opinion of Ginny the first time you read CoS, and how do you view the descriptions now?

The first time I read it, I didn't think anything of it - I didn't really feel like I knew her that well at this point, so I figured it was just how she was. Having finished the book, I know now that wasn't the case.

> 8. Neither Ron nor Harry has heard of Polyjuice Potion---if you were their teacher what would your opinion of them be?

I dont think that would surprise me greatly given their overall level of interest in academics. :)

> 9. At one time this book was going to be The Half Blood Prince. Who knows what the plot would have been, but do you see any sections in this chapter that seem to foreshadow or parallel HBP?

Absolutely - I think there are a lot of parallels between this book and HBP throughout. This chapter lays some groundwork for the horcruxes by getting into the story about the founders and the CoS, and describing Ginny's symptoms which we later find out are horcrux-related.

> 10. What do you think of Binns' comment, "Just because a wizard doesn't use Dark Magic doesn't mean he can't"? Is this brought up in any of the other 6 books?

I think that's a central theme to the whole series - choices matter more than abilities.

> 11. I have to confess, I had a really good question for this chapter that turned out to be based on movie contamination. I had such a bad case; I had to read the chapter several times before I accepted the event wasn't canon. All these years I thought it was an important moment in the Harry/Snape dynamic. So, what questions do you have?

Now I'm curious about what your question was. :)

poohmeg



From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 16:56:53 2010
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 16:56:53 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 9 The Writing on the Wall
In-Reply-To: <hmhn4h+3l1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmjg0l+okcn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189005

1. This chapter is very funny. Why do you think JKR used so much comedy just as she's introducing the idea of the Chamber of Secrets?

Janelle:
I really don't know, maybe she's attempting to lead the reader to underestimate the evil of the Chamber.

2. What is Snape up to with his "Wrong place at the wrong time" speech?

Janelle:
I've often wondered about that myself.  Not trying to start any Snape debates here- but maybe he's trying to fulfill his promise of looking out for Harry.  He knows that Harry isn't the heir of Slytherin.

3. What would have happened if Harry had told Dumbledore about the voices?

Janelle:
This is an interesting question to think about.  At this point in the story, Dumbledore suspects that Voldemort has a horcrux, but can't even imagine that he has as many as seven, nor that Harry might be another.  Perhaps he would have caught on to Harry's horcrux-ness sooner if Harry had confided in him?
 
4. Why didn't JKR introduce Squibs in SS/PS?

Janelle:
I think that she did through Neville's reference to being "all muggle"- she just didn't have or use the term.  Why not?  Maybe she hadn't come up with it yet (sort of like when she referenced the "Ministry Hit Wizards" or whatever instead of calling them Aurors), or maybe she just didn't want to add a story element that was relevant for the current book and decided to wait for COS. 


5. How does the explanation of Salazar's reasons for excluding Muggle-born students compare to contemporary wizards' reasons? (Malfoy, Black, etc.)

Janelle:
IIRC, Slytherin was concerned, at least in part, with wizarding secrecy and he didn't want to risk muggle-borns spilling their secrets to the world.  Contemporary wizards (such as Lucius Malfoy) don't seem to be concerned about that- they're coming from a more prejudiced standpoint where the merely think that Muggleborns aren't good enough to go to school with their pureblood children.

6. Are you surprised that Harry expected students to think he was Slytherin's heir at this time?
 


7. Ginny is  pale, upset, worried
how did these descriptions influence your opinion of Ginny the first time you read CoS, and how do you view the descriptions now?

Janelle:
I think at the time it made me think of her as being very child-like.  Now, of course, we know that her symptoms were resulting from being possessed by Tom Riddle. 

8. Neither Ron nor Harry has heard of Polyjuice Potion---if you were their teacher what would your opinion of them be?

Janelle:
I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed by that, in fact, I would expect it, especially from Harry who grew up outside of the wizarding world.  True, it was mentioned in class a couple times, but the book was stashed away for older students.

9. At one time this book was going to be The Half Blood Prince. Who knows what the plot would have been, but do you see any sections in this chapter that seem to foreshadow or parallel HBP?

Janelle:
Nothing in particular jumps out at me, other than clues about Harry being connected somehow to Slytherin.
 
10. What do you think of Binns' comment, "Just because a wizard doesn't use Dark Magic doesn't mean he can't"? Is this brought up in any of the other 6 books?

Janelle:
Well- my immediate thought is of McGonagall telling Dumbledore that he's too noble to do them.  Also, I think of the unforgiveables and Harry's use of two of them in the final book.  Dark spells are spells just like any other, only with evil intent.  Any skilled wizard could technically perform the spells, they just won't (unless in dire circumstances, like Harry)

Thanks for the questions!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 18:55:14 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:55:14 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 9 The Writing on the Wall
In-Reply-To: <hmhn4h+3l1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmjmui+k27k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189006

<snip chapter outline>
> 
> 1. This chapter is very funny. Why do you think JKR used so much comedy just as she's introducing the idea of the Chamber of Secrets?

Carol responds:
It's hard to know why JKR does anything, but one reason may be her intended audience. Young readers like comedy, especially broad comedy. Also, it won't do to be tragic to early in the story and scare them off. It was a stroke of genius to make Moaning Myrtle comically annoying rather than pitiable, for example. Maybe JKR is following Shakespeare in mixing comedy with tragedy, which he apparently did for a variety of reasons ranging from entertaining his audience to realism (life seldom consists of pure tragedy or pure comedy) to the understanding that the comic always verges on the tragic. Comedy is funny only if it results in only minor injuries or temporary difficulties, not serious injuries, death, or permanent emotional distress.

Did you have any particular incidents in mind when you asked this question?
> 
> 2. What is Snape up to with his "Wrong place at the wrong time" speech?

Carol:
You can never tell with the mysterious Severus. Maybe he's actually attempting to be fair--or appear to be--but certainly he wants to make it clear that their presence at the scene of the crime is suspicious. Possibly, he hopes to scare them into confessing whatever they know. I doubt that he thinks any of them actually attacked Mrs. Norris, if only because not even Hermione would have the skill or power to perform Dark Magic. He may simply be trying to discover why they weren't at the Halloween feast--and remembering what happened the previous year on Halloween (the Troll) and/or their entering the forbidden corridor the previous year and nearly getting killed. Someone dangerous is at Hogwarts, and Snape, who is protecting Harry despite appearances, would not want him anywhere near that person.
> 
> 3. What would have happened if Harry had told Dumbledore about the voices?

Carol:
It would have sped up the storyline considerably since DD (who can't, I think, hear the Basilisk himself even though he must suspect what it is and certainly knows the identity of the Heir of Slytherin) would have known for sure that Harry was a Parselmouth. As it is, I'm almost certain that he asked Snape to find that out, which is why Snape later had Draco cast Serpensortia in the dueling club and why he looked so shrewd (rather than shocked) when Harry actually spoke it. At that point, DD must have set up the protections for Harry if and when he found and entered the CoS. Meanwhile, I would hope that he put additional protective spells on the school, which could be why no one was actually killed even when the Basilisk started attacking Muggle-borns. Had they been killed, I think he would have had to abandon his plan and close the school. (DD is also, of course, missing a key puzzle piece. He doesn't know about the diary, and, as he later says to McGonagall, "The queestion is not who but how."
> 
> 4. Why didn't JKR introduce Squibs in SS/PS?

Carol:
Well, she did introduce the idea that a child from a Wizarding family might not be as magically powerful as his parents (though Neville's use of "all Muggle" leads to confusion), and she does introduce the concept of prejudice against what eleven-year-old Draco refers to as "the other kind" of Witches and Wizards, but the actual terminology (including the insult "Mud-Blood") isn't yet important and she wants to save it for CoS where it's crucial to the plot. It's also important that Harry not know the term Squib so that he can truthfully claim innocence when Filch accuses Harry of Petrifying Mrs. Norris because he knows that Filch is a Squib.
> 
> 5. How does the explanation of Salazar's reasons for excluding Muggle-born students compare to contemporary wizards' reasons? (Malfoy, Black, etc.)

Carol:
I didn't have time to reread the chapter, just to skim it, so I can't be sure, but obviously, modern Witches and Wizards are no longer in danger of being persecuted. I think that Salazar's fear of treachery by Muggle-borns has metamorphosed into a sense that Muggle-borns are magically inferior because of their nonmagical blood (an ancient idea retained into modern times. Draco isn't afraid of Muggle-borns; he just turns his nose up at them and looks down on people who marry them (or Muggles).
> 
> 6. Are you surprised that Harry expected students to think he was Slytherin's heir at this time?

Carol:
Not really. He has no idea who or what Slytherin's heir is (neither do the other students), and he *can* hear the voice in the walls. (Of course, the idea becomes more plausible later after the revelation that he's a Parselmouth.)
> 
> 7. Ginny is  pale, upset, worried
how did these descriptions influence your opinion of Ginny the first time you read CoS, and how do you view the descriptions now?

Carol:
I gave it no more thought than Harry did. Ginny was just a first-year and Ron's little sister, not an important character that I should be interested in. Now, of course, the reason for her paleness and concern is obvious, and I think that I should have noted the difference between her apparent fear in this instance and her courage in standing up to Draco at Flourish and Blotts. JKR is cleverly hiding clues in plain sight here as in other books.
> 
> 8. Neither Ron nor Harry has heard of Polyjuice Potion---if you were their teacher what would your opinion of them be?

Carol:
Snape talked about it in class and even told them which book the recipe is in (of course, he also pointed out that it was in the Restricted Section of the library). My opinion of them would be that they were students who didn't listen in class and liked to goof off--exactly what Snape knows to be true. (He would also know that Hermione *did* pay attention. I don't think, however, that he expected her to obtain the book and learn to make such a difficult potion as a second-year.)
> 
> 9. At one time this book was going to be The Half Blood Prince. Who knows what the plot would have been, but do you see any sections in this chapter that seem to foreshadow or parallel HBP?

Carol:
I suspect that they would have found the recipe for Poly-juice Potion (the improved version) in the Prince's book, and maybe Harry would suddenly have become "good" at Potions rather than relying on Hermione. JKR must have found out very quickly that the plot wouldn't work and also realized that it made much more sense to keep Snape's background a mystery until Book 6. I see foreshadowing of HBP in other chapters, but not that much here.
> 
> 10. What do you think of Binns' comment, "Just because a wizard doesn't use Dark Magic doesn't mean he can't"? Is this brought up in any of the other 6 books?

Carol:
We see Harry using or attempting to use Dark Magic in HBP and DH, and, of course, Snape uses AK for the greater good in HBP. But I think we're meant to think of Dumbledore, who, as we later learn, has the Elder Wand but apparently never uses it to cast Dark spells. (It's the one Hallow he's worthy of using, as he tells Harry at King's Cross.)
> 
> 11. I have to confess, I had a really good question for this chapter that turned out to be based on movie contamination. I had such a bad case; I had to read the chapter several times before I accepted the event wasn't canon. All these years I thought it was an important moment in the Harry/Snape dynamic. So, what questions do you have?
>
Carol:
Aren't you going to enlighten us? What was the event?

Carol, thanking Potioncat for a delightful discussion




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 20:12:27 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 20:12:27 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 9 The Writing on the Wall
In-Reply-To: <hmhn4h+3l1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmjrfb+g3tl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189007



1.This chapter is very funny. Why do you think JKR used so much comedy just as
she's introducing the idea of the Chamber of Secrets?

Alla:

My guess would be to underline the contrast between very dark subject matter and the humor and because she is good at humor ??


2. What is Snape up to with his "Wrong place at the wrong time" speech?

Alla:

Well, you know my thoughts on the matter, but in case you don??t,  he never passes up the opportunity to make sure Harry is punished, even if he knows that Harry should not be IMO.

3. What would have happened if Harry had told Dumbledore about the voices?

Alla:

What would have happened if James listened and did not take Peter as secret keeper? What would have happened if Dumbledore actually decided to hear out Sirius?? story before giving the evidence that  he ??was a secret keeper??? We would have had different stories. I love imagining ??alternate timelines?? in all key accidents of Potterverse, but that would not have been a story JKR wanted to tell I suppose.

But you know, here I am thinking that even if Harry told Dumbledore about the voices, since I am of very sinister view of him, I think he would have still made sure Harry investigated it and went to the chamber, one way or another.

4. Why didn't JKR introduce Squibs in SS/PS?

Alla:

Well, she did introduce Arabella, she just did not tell us who she was. No idea why not in that book.

5. How does the explanation of Salazar's reasons for excluding Muggle-born
students compare to contemporary wizards' reasons? (Malfoy, Black, etc.)

6. Are you surprised that Harry expected students to think he was Slytherin's
heir at this time?

7. Ginny is pale, upset, worried?Khow did these descriptions influence your
opinion of Ginny the first time you read CoS, and how do you view the
descriptions now?

8. Neither Ron nor Harry has heard of Polyjuice Potion---if you were their
teacher what would your opinion of them be?

Alla:

Um, I would have decided that I need to teach them that if I realized that they did not learn it with somebody before my time and if they did not learn it with me, I would have thought it would have been my falling as a teacher.



I will answer the rest of your super awesome questions later. Thank you so much Potioncat and Zara.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar  3 02:57:28 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 02:57:28 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 9 The Writing on the Wall
In-Reply-To: <hmhn4h+3l1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmkj6o+43rj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189008

 
> 1. This chapter is very funny. Why do you think JKR used so much comedy just as she's introducing the idea of the Chamber of Secrets?

Pippin:
We're not supposed to be sure there even *is* a Chamber at this point. She doesn't want to darken the atmosphere of the book too quickly. 

> 
> 2. What is Snape up to with his "Wrong place at the wrong time" speech?

Pippin:
Another splendid piece of misdirection to keep us from noticing a big fat clue that JKR has just dropped in front of us. Snape deduces that the culprit must be someone who wasn't at the feast. That rules out Draco -- but we're so busy wondering what Snape is up to that we never notice. I didn't, until just now.

As for Snape, I think he feels something like Harry did watching the Umbridge vs Snape smackdown in OOP. Harry knows it doesn't make sense to root for Umbridge, but he can't help thinking he'd like to see Snape on the hot seat for a change. (Harry gets his wish, I just realized, in DH, when Snape is being questioned by Voldemort.)
 
> 3. What would have happened if Harry had told Dumbledore about the voices?

Pippin:
I think he'd have been told to report to Dumbledore at once if he heard them again. But IIRC, Harry *doesn't* hear them again. Riddle must have realized that he'd had a close call, and ordered the basilisk to keep silent. IIRC, it doesn't speak again even in the Chamber. So it probably wouldn't have made much difference.

> 
> 4. Why didn't JKR introduce Squibs in SS/PS?
Pippin:
JKR is careful not to slow the story down with too much exposition, so although we get Mrs. Figg and Nevilles "all Muggle" in the first book, we don't get vocabulary that would need an explanation. 

> 
> 5. How does the explanation of Salazar's reasons for excluding Muggle-born students compare to contemporary wizards' reasons? (Malfoy, Black, etc.)

Pippin:
In the early books, contemporary wizards seem to be clinging to these old fashioned ideas out of sheer snobbery and pointless bigotry. But then we find out about the way that Snape's family was treated by his Muggle father and what happened to Dumbledore's sister, and it seems that the way Harry suffered in the Muggle world was not such an isolated case. 

There *is* snobbery involved, but it's in not wanting to admit that Muggles can actually be a danger to wizards. So the Malfoys and their ilk invent endless other reasons for not wanting to mix with Mugglekind. 

> 
> 6. Are you surprised that Harry expected students to think he was Slytherin's heir at this time?

Pippin:
Harry knows the Hat wanted to put him in Slytherin. He intuits a connection between himself and the Heir -- and he's quite right. 

> 7. Ginny is  pale, upset, worried
how did these descriptions influence your opinion of Ginny the first time you read CoS, and how do you view the descriptions now?

Pippin:
I thought she was really fond of cats at the time. Now, of course, I can see that cats aren't the problem. 

> 
> 8. Neither Ron nor Harry has heard of Polyjuice Potion---if you were their teacher what would your opinion of them be?

Pippin:
That they don't pay attention in class. But it isn't really something second years are expected to be up on, so I wouldn't be too annoyed about it. 
> 
> 9. At one time this book was going to be The Half Blood Prince. Who knows what the plot would have been, but do you see any sections in this chapter that seem to foreshadow or parallel HBP?

Pippin:
Hmm...I don't see so much in this chapter, but there is  investigating Moaning Myrtle's bathroom, and Harry being warned off any detective work. 
 
> 10. What do you think of Binns' comment, "Just because a wizard doesn't use Dark Magic doesn't mean he can't"? Is this brought up in any of the other 6 books?

Pippin:
It means there's no qualitative difference between a Dark Wizard and other wizards, despite what Harry would like to think. It's pretty clear by the end of the series that Binns is right: any wizard can use Dark Magic, whether he's known for it or not.

Pippin





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 18:48:32 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:48:32 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmbhk1+606c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmmau0+9vkg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189009



Alla:
> They are achieving something what their elders, mentors, etc for various
reasons were unable to achieve and younger generation did better in a sense.

Pippin:
If Dumbledore is such a rotter as you think, then Harry could surpass him by
turning over in his sleep. Not much drama in that, is there?

Alla:

Well, sure to me it is a no-brainer that Harry can surpass Dumbledore in his sleep if we were to evaluate his morals and his character, it is his independence from Dumbledore, from his conditioning or training I am looking for. Not complete independence from the voice of wisdom, but independence from clearly flawed voice of wisdom in my view. However again I totally aware that JKR does not think that way and thinks that Dumbledore is wonderful man and in essence good, so I am pretty sure she may not even think that Harry needs to surpass them. I am well aware that I am reading Dumbledore against author's intent. It is really not complicated to understand how author sees him.

Pippin:
Okay, I think I get it. You were waiting for the "I can't kill my own father"
moment when Luke realizes his mentors' moral judgement is flawed and trusts his
own higher self to help him deal with Vader. Is that it?

Alla:

Pretty much, yes, although I would frame it into more general terms and say that I was not even looking for a specific moment necessarily, it could be a gradual realization, but this is pretty much it in the nutshell.

Pippin:
But JKR said all along she wasn't writing "Star Wars." 

Alla:

JKR also said that she was not writing fantasy (inserts massive eye roll here). I mean of course she was not writing Star Wars, but again per her own words, she was working in the genre where wise old man dies and the hero goes on and where the hero should overgrow a father figure, if I remember the gist of her comments correctly. Sounds to me as if she wants to have her cake and eat it too. Because if she IS writing in the genre, the hero slavishly (IMO) attached to what his  mentor wants in the last chapters of the book looks bizarre to me. And if she is subverting the genre, I really want to know what in her books does qualify as subversion of the genre. You know, I am thinking now that maybe my main frustration does come from the very deep desire for JKR to keep her mouth shut when it comes to explanations how readers should read her books , sigh. I still want to know the facts about Potterverse, but as to everything else, oh dear, please not. Maybe I paid attention to her interviews for a long time and when time passes and I am trying to see a picture in my mind that ties her intent  and what is in the books, I really cannot picture it. I do not know what it is exactly, but I know that I am definitely frustrated.



Pippin:
Harry has a higher power,
a mental image of the epitome of goodness, but it was created in Dumbledore's
image, and it has flaws, just as the real Dumbledore did.
Harry can't tell
whether he's consulting the real Dumbledore or his mental image of him, but it
doesn't matter, because finally and after much angst about who this man really
was, they are reconciled. Harry can trust Dumbledore even though Dumbledore
isn't always right because he knows and accepts what Dumbledore's limits are.

Alla:

Right, but my problem is that Harry still cannot make a decision without consulting Dumbledore's image. It is just to me, not the place to do that when all bets are off and it is Harry's time to do that.

As sort of an aside, I think Zara got what Harry's relationship with Dumbledore symbolizes one hundred percent right, I think she told  me that once in our offlist discussions. Zara, if I am misrepresenting please correct me.

I think she said that Harry's crisis with Dumbledore, thinking that he betrayed him and choosing to follow him on his own symbolizes somebody's crisis of faith (be it a Christian or any faith, but you know I agree that books are largely based on Christianity), however despite this metaphor Dumbledore is not meant to be shown as God. 

I think Zara is 100% right on the money, but then all what it says about Harry to me that he learned how to be good follower of dead Albus Dumbledore.


Pippin:
Harry *is* asking his highest self what he should do -- but with the twist
that he knows his highest self isn't always going to be right. How does he know
it's right at King's Cross? Because it's pointing towards the more difficult
choice.

JKR is saying that in the end, no matter whom we take as our epitome of
goodness, it's going to be flawed and it can lead us astray. That doesn't mean
there's no good and evil. It just means they're not as easy to tell apart as the
innocent believe. Our concept of the greater good is shaped by our upbringing
and we're kidding ourselves if we think we've achieved complete independence
from it. And when we expect other people to do it, we're expecting a lot too
much.

There's little point in grieving endlessly about the moral decisions we made
and feel bad about. It's the ones we *don't* feel bad about that should trouble
us. Especially the ones that should be fraught and are easy.
How do we know it was wrong for Harry to use the Unforgivable Curses even though
he never expresses any regret? Because it was *easy*.

Alla:

I think what you wrote is really beautiful, I am just not sure if JKR had this mind when she wrote that chapter.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
It would have been so easy for Harry to pressure Al into agreeing that being in
Slytherin wouldn't make any difference, and some of us were annoyed that he
didn't. Does that mean Harry doesn't really think that Slytherin would be just
as good? Or does it mean that, unlike Dumbledore, Harry shows respect for Al's
choices even when he doesn't think they're wise?


Alla:

I like that too, I really was only half joking when I said that naming his son could have been coming out of age moment, since I do not consider Kings Cross as one, but I like yours too, I mean not enough drama, but really quite satisfying in more subtle way. I have to think about it.







From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  4 01:38:47 2010
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:38:47 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmmau0+9vkg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmn2v7+v02f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189010

Pippin:
> There's little point in grieving endlessly about the moral decisions we made
> and feel bad about. It's the ones we *don't* feel bad about that should trouble
> us. Especially the ones that should be fraught and are easy.
> How do we know it was wrong for Harry to use the Unforgivable Curses even though
> he never expresses any regret? Because it was *easy*.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I think what you wrote is really beautiful, I am just not sure if JKR had this mind when she wrote that chapter.

Magpie:
I don't see how it could be. Not only does Harry not wrestle with most of his moral choices and rarely spend much time regretting his actions, wasn't JKR asked about this and didn't she give a fairly dismissive answer about Harry not being a saint and having a temper? Which to me pretty clearly says that of course he cast a bad spell but it's nothing for deep concern. He throws "good" spells just as easily and with just as little regret. I think we're more often encouraged to see Harry as having good instincts when it comes to morals.

I actually agree with the Dumbledore/God analogy here. Because Dumbledore totally does die at the moment you expect Harry to have to go it on his own and then spends the next book more in control than ever.

-m




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 18:28:08 2010
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 18:28:08 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmn2v7+v02f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmou3o+n3ip@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189011

> Magpie:
> I don't see how it could be. Not only does Harry not wrestle with most of his moral choices and rarely spend much time regretting his actions, wasn't JKR asked about this and didn't she give a fairly dismissive answer about Harry not being a saint and having a temper? Which to me pretty clearly says that of course he cast a bad spell but it's nothing for deep concern. He throws "good" spells just as easily and with just as little regret. I think we're more often encouraged to see Harry as having good instincts when it comes to morals.

Zara:
Is this the quote you mean?

> 2007 Bloomsbury chat:
> Barbara: I was very disappointed to see harry use crucio and seem to enjoy it his failure to perform that kind of curse in the past has been a credit to his character why the change, and did harry later regret having enjoyed deliberately causing pain 
> J.K. Rowling: Harry is not, and never has been, a saint. Like Snape, he is flawed and mortal.
> J.K. Rowling: Harry's faults are primarily anger and occasional arrogance.
> J.K. Rowling: On this occasion, he is very angry and acts accordingly. He is also in an extreme situation, and attempting to defend somebody very good against a violent and murderous opponent.

Zara:
If we are attempting to discern her intention on the basis of what she has said in interviews, I would have to agree Pippin's view is what Rowling intended, that this was a bad action on Harry's part. In particular, I'd say her choice of Severus Snape, of all characters, to compare Harry to in this quote weighs heavily against your supposition that this sort of thing is not supposed to be concerning in her world. Severus is a good guy, but certainly not someone whose instincts always kept him out of trouble and on the straight and narrow path...!

That she is not, actually, concerned about Harry's specific action in this specific case is in my opinion because she knows his entire life story, and it is in that context that she is explaining the incident to the fan who raised this question. If Harry had continued to indulge in this sort of thing, this would be bad. However, in what she has actually written, following this scene, Harry willingly tries to sacrifice his life for others, and follows this up with showing Voldemort mercy in their final confrontation, and giving up the temptations the Elder Wand would present him with. He then goes on (in her imagination as expressed in other interviews) to be a credit to the Auror Department and loving husband and father (as we also see in the Epilogue). Thus, Rowling is explaining why Harry did this not to dismiss that it is (as the fan points out) disappointing, but to explain why a generally good character might act in a disappointing way.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 19:34:37 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:34:37 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmou3o+n3ip@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmp20d+iqrv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189012

> Zara:
> Is this the quote you mean?
> 
> > 2007 Bloomsbury chat:
> > Barbara: I was very disappointed to see harry use crucio and seem to enjoy it his failure to perform that kind of curse in the past has been a credit to his character why the change, and did harry later regret having enjoyed deliberately causing pain 
> > J.K. Rowling: Harry is not, and never has been, a saint. Like Snape, he is flawed and mortal.
> > J.K. Rowling: Harry's faults are primarily anger and occasional arrogance.
> > J.K. Rowling: On this occasion, he is very angry and acts accordingly. He is also in an extreme situation, and attempting to defend somebody very good against a violent and murderous opponent.
> 
> Zara:
> If we are attempting to discern her intention on the basis of what she has said in interviews, I would have to agree Pippin's view is what Rowling intended, that this was a bad action on Harry's part. In particular, I'd say her choice of Severus Snape, of all characters, to compare Harry to in this quote weighs heavily against your supposition that this sort of thing is not supposed to be concerning in her world. Severus is a good guy, but certainly not someone whose instincts always kept him out of trouble and on the straight and narrow path...!
> 
> That she is not, actually, concerned about Harry's specific action in this specific case is in my opinion because she knows his entire life story, and it is in that context that she is explaining the incident to the fan who raised this question. If Harry had continued to indulge in this sort of thing, this would be bad. However, in what she has actually written, following this scene, Harry willingly tries to sacrifice his life for others, and follows this up with showing Voldemort mercy in their final confrontation, and giving up the temptations the Elder Wand would present him with. He then goes on (in her imagination as expressed in other interviews) to be a credit to the Auror Department and loving husband and father (as we also see in the Epilogue). Thus, Rowling is explaining why Harry did this not to dismiss that it is (as the fan points out) disappointing, but to explain why a generally good character might act in a disappointing way.
>
Carol responds:
Notice, though, that JKR didn't actually answer the fan's question about whether Harry later regretted his action. It seems to me that here, as all too often, JKR's instinct is defensiveness, as if either she as writer or Harry as character needed to be defended.

I agree that her choice of Severus Snape is interesting--both of them are flawed human beings--but she nevertheless seems to think that not just Harry's anger (which I agree is understandable and natural) but his use of torture to express that anger is justified on that occasion. She doesn't seem to notice her own inconsistency (she had Bellatrix say in OoP that righteous anger couldn't sustain a Cruciatus Curse, but here Harry is "meaning it" and *enjoying* it as the questioner points out, yet JKR still seems to think that it's a perfectly reasonable way of dealing with the situation.

She can't take criticism--that's her problem. And she can't seem to see anyone else's point of view. She intended it to be justifiable, therefore it *is* justifiable (in her view).

Interestingly, we see Severus Snape become very angry on several occasions, yet not once does he use a Crucio. And Harry has already condemned Crabbe and Goyle for using that curse (and enjoying it) before he happily uses it himself.

Sorry, JKR, but you're a flawed human being, too, and I don't think your assessment of the situation is objective or accurate.

Carol, who is also, of course a flawed human being but has yet to torture anyone or to condone torture




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  4 19:32:26 2010
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:32:26 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmou3o+n3ip@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmp1sa+r81n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189013

> Zara:
> Is this the quote you mean?
> 
> > 2007 Bloomsbury chat:
> > Barbara: I was very disappointed to see harry use crucio and seem to enjoy it his failure to perform that kind of curse in the past has been a credit to his character why the change, and did harry later regret having enjoyed deliberately causing pain 
> > J.K. Rowling: Harry is not, and never has been, a saint. Like Snape, he is flawed and mortal.
> > J.K. Rowling: Harry's faults are primarily anger and occasional arrogance.
> > J.K. Rowling: On this occasion, he is very angry and acts accordingly. He is also in an extreme situation, and attempting to defend somebody very good against a violent and murderous opponent.
> 
> Zara:
> If we are attempting to discern her intention on the basis of what she has said in interviews, I would have to agree Pippin's view is what Rowling intended, that this was a bad action on Harry's part. 

Magpie:
Yes, that's the quote. I did already agree that Harry is supposed to be doing something bad here--I just don't see how this description lines up with a view that the scene is at all a big moment of showing that we're supposed to stop and think about how it's really bad that Harry made the choice easily and didn't regret.

The "he's flawed and human" line is one of the most common ones you hear in fandom and it's a defense. She's not saying that Harry crossed a serious line by torturing someone, she's saying he's "flawed" (a generic word that everyone is) and that he's "human" (another word that implies his actions here are pretty ordinary and understandable). The flaws in this case being "anger" (not so bad) and *occasional* arrogance. Sounds like a pretty good guy to me. Then she reminds us that he's "defending" someone "very good" against a violent and murderous opponent. 

So yeah, I think that line acknowledges that Harry did a bad thing there but it's mostly a defense. All summed up pretty well in the first line that Harry is not and has never been a saint as if the questioner's issues with the scene implied he should be. She's not actually dealing with the specific concerns the poster has about this action at all except to remind us of why Harry was doing something good in defending a "very good" person against a bad one.

Zara:> 
> That she is not, actually, concerned about Harry's specific action in this specific case is in my opinion because she knows his entire life story, and it is in that context that she is explaining the incident to the fan who raised this question. If Harry had continued to indulge in this sort of thing, this would be bad. 

Magpie:
Exactly. She's not talking about his specific action in this specific case--and that's exactly what the person found troubling. The person was not worried about whether or not Harry continued to indulge in this sort of thing, they were disturbed that he did it and enjoyed it here. JKR's answer, which I think you correctly describe here, imo is more in line with what I described, that she's playing down this scene rather than highlighting it as a dangerous thing we should still be thinking about. If Harry isn't continuing to indulge in this sort of thing why should it be something I as a reader am mulling over as a lot worse than Harry took it to be? 


Zara:
Thus, Rowling is explaining why Harry did this not to dismiss that it is (as the fan points out) disappointing, but to explain why a generally good character might act in a disappointing way.

Magpie:
She explains it by saying he's not and never has been a saint, he's flawed, he's human, and he was defending a very good person against a bad one. I don't see how that leads to her using the scene to highlight how Harry's ease with the action and lack of regret is a danger sign for how bad the action was on the level that the questioner seemed to think it was. It's barely more cautionary than McGonagall's reaction in canon. She's encouraging the person to look at how Harry's better in other scenes rather than the scene that disturbed the person. The question imo doesn't suggest that the person is confused as to how a generally good person could act in a disappointing way, she's disturbed that Harry chose to torture someone and enjoy it. I'm sure the questioner rolled with Harry doing plenty of not good things without being disturbed the way they were here.

-m




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 20:12:51 2010
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 20:12:51 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmp20d+iqrv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmp483+no2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189014

> > > 2007 Bloomsbury chat:
> > > Barbara: I was very disappointed to see harry use crucio and seem to enjoy it his failure to perform that kind of curse in the past has been a credit to his character why the change, and did harry later regret having enjoyed deliberately causing pain 
> > > J.K. Rowling: Harry is not, and never has been, a saint. Like Snape, he is flawed and mortal.
> > > J.K. Rowling: Harry's faults are primarily anger and occasional arrogance.
> > > J.K. Rowling: On this occasion, he is very angry and acts accordingly. He is also in an extreme situation, and attempting to defend somebody very good against a violent and murderous opponent.


> Carol responds:
> Notice, though, that JKR didn't actually answer the fan's question about whether Harry later regretted his action. 

Zara:
Yes, she did not answer that second question. She answered the first question, "why the change"? To me it seems she is stating that Harry always had the potentiality to succumb to anger and Dark Magic. And explaining that we had not seen this before but saw it here, because the situation here was extreme in the ways she enumerates.

> Carol:
> She doesn't seem to notice her own inconsistency (she had Bellatrix say in OoP that righteous anger couldn't sustain a Cruciatus Curse, but here Harry is "meaning it" and *enjoying* it as the questioner points out, yet JKR still seems to think that it's a perfectly reasonable way of dealing with the situation.

Zara:
Where does she state this is a perfectly reasonable way of dealing with the situation? She states "Harry is extremely angry and acts accordingly", in other words, his action has nothing to do with reason and everything to do with (negative) emotion. 

Harry's action is reasonable in the sense that a person with a rational understanding of his character could predict he might act in such a way in such circumstances, but that is different from saying his action is justified.

I do agree her non-answer of the second question may be defensive. I bet she does not visualize Harry feeling sorry about having hurt Amycus Carrow, and I bet she does not have a problem with that. I tend to see it Harry's and her way...this bad thing could hardly have happened to a more deserving person than Carrow. Even if Harry, Rowling, and I all feel this way, however, this does not prevent any/all of us from recognizing that Harry acted wrongly, and better choices were available to him at the time.

If Rowling disagreed with the fan, I think she would have said so, she's certainly done so in the past.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 21:11:16 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 21:11:16 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmp483+no2n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmp7lk+i4ep@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189015

Carol earlier:
> > She doesn't seem to notice her own inconsistency (she had Bellatrix say in OoP that righteous anger couldn't sustain a Cruciatus Curse, but here Harry is "meaning it" and *enjoying* it as the questioner points out, yet JKR still seems to think that it's a perfectly reasonable way of dealing with the situation.
> 
> Zara:
> Where does she state this is a perfectly reasonable way of dealing with the situation? She states "Harry is extremely angry and acts accordingly", in other words, his action has nothing to do with reason and everything to do with (negative) emotion. 
> 
> Harry's action is reasonable in the sense that a person with a rational understanding of his character could predict he might act in such a way in such circumstances, but that is different from saying his action is justified.
> 
> I do agree her non-answer of the second question may be defensive. I bet she does not visualize Harry feeling sorry about having hurt Amycus Carrow, and I bet she does not have a problem with that. I tend to see it Harry's and her way...this bad thing could hardly have happened to a more deserving person than Carrow. Even if Harry, Rowling, and I all feel this way, however, this does not prevent any/all of us from recognizing that Harry acted wrongly, and better choices were available to him at the time.
> 
> If Rowling disagreed with the fan, I think she would have said so, she's certainly done so in the past.
>
Carol responds:
The inconsistency is that she seems to be regarding Harry's reaction in this instance as righteous anger (justifiable anger at a wicked person for insulting a "very good" person) whereas bellatrix said in OoP, "righteous anger won't hurt me for long." Moreover, enjoyment of torturing someone (which she said was necessary for sustaining the curse and which Harry indeed feels in DH) is inconsistent with righteous anger.

Carol, glad we agree me that she's being defensive and didn't answer the second question




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar  5 16:38:15 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:38:15 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmp7lk+i4ep@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmrc1n+r8js@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189016


> Carol responds:
> The inconsistency is that she seems to be regarding Harry's reaction in this instance as righteous anger (justifiable anger at a wicked person for insulting a "very good" person) whereas bellatrix said in OoP, "righteous anger won't hurt me for long." Moreover, enjoyment of torturing someone (which she said was necessary for sustaining the curse and which Harry indeed feels in DH) is inconsistent with righteous anger.

Pippin:
Harry himself is inconsistent.  

I think Harry's inconsistency, the inconsistency of the good guys in general, is what's subversive about the books.  Voldemort is consistently bad, but there's no character who is infallibly good, much as we might have hoped our favorites would qualify by the end. 

Righteous anger is what a saint would feel, and a saint wouldn't have hurt Amycus for long. Harry has his saintlier moments. But this isn't one of them.   He's let his anger (and his magic) run away with him. That definitely doesn't make him a saint. But it doesn't make him a monster either. 

 The monster, the basilisk or the werewolf, has no choice but to obey its instincts. But Harry does.  Harry's sin is not in feeling angry but in failing to control his anger, and he does realize, a few moments later, that he's been out of control. "Somehow, her panic steadied him." 

JKR is not dismissive of the interviewer's shock and disappointment. The reader is set up  to be shocked, IMO, as shocked as Harry feels whenever one of his idols crumbles into human clay, though if he were wiser he'd have known it all along.  What's being dismissed is the WW's idea that only a monster who ought to be locked up in Azkaban for life could be capable of such things. 

Harry needs to understand what he's capable of so that he can understand what Dumbledore and Snape were capable of and still see them as human and forgivable. 

I agree that JKR sees more to regret in Harry's foolishness and impulsivity than she does in Amycus suffering a bit more cruelly than he should have, and that's where the emphasis is in the books. Harry acknowledges those at the time.  But Dumbledore's and Snape's stories have yet to teach Harry how dangerous such foolishness and impulsivity can be.  Once anger is in control, it doesn't care whether its victims deserve what they get or what the consequences could be. 

This issue of control is central to the theme of DH, IMO. Harry loses control in all sorts of ways -- even his phoenix feather wand acts of its own accord. His coming of age is not so much about achieving independence but in gaining control of himself. 

And that brings me back to Alla's question about why Harry needs to consult with Dumbledore. The soul who takes selflessness as its ideal has a problem: well-illustrated whenever Dumbledore tries to establish how selfless he is. He sounds self-serving, as anyone would.

The soul simply cannot achieve selflessness on its own; it has to say, "not my will, but thine, be done." Harry will always need someone to tell him what is selfless. But he doesn't need Dumbledore to tell him what is *right*. 

Kings Cross Dumbledore says that Harry is worthy of all three Hallows. Yet Harry abandons the Stone (and with it, the ability to summon up Dumbledore whenever he likes) and returns the wand to its resting place. Portrait Dumbledore approves -- he's now following Harry's lead rather than the reverse.

Pippin





From bart at moosewise.com  Fri Mar  5 17:51:35 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:51:35 -0500
Subject: Why unforgiveable?
Message-ID: <4B9144A7.90903@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189017

Bart:
There's a current conversation about Harry's use of crucio and other 
unforgivable curses. Which means that it might be useful looking at the 
unforgivable curses in general. Here's my take:

In the Potterverse, there are 3 curses which are considered 
"unforgivable". Yet, Harry performs two of them, and tries to perform 
the third.

Now, of course, there is the bumbling bureaucracy in the Potterverse, 
and they have certain penalties for the three curses (rather than using 
the cutesy names, I'll use what the curses do: extreme pain, replacing 
another's free will with your own, and death). But let's look at the 
idea that the "unforgivable" came BEFORE the bureaucracy.

So, what would make a spell unforgivable? The first part of this would 
be the question: who does the forgiving in the first place? In 
Christianity, the answer is generally God or Jesus. But that aspect of 
religion appears to be absent in the Potterverse, at least explicitly (a 
reason why many Christian groups who are willing to go beyond labels 
still oppose the Potter books). But a major theme of the Potter novels 
is how the choices we make shape who we are.

Add to this what we know about the unforgivables; they don't work unless 
you really WANT them to work. You need to really WANT someone to 
experience pain, to experience death, to impose your will upon theirs.

So, for your consideration: once you act on feelings like that, you 
create permanent pathways in your brain, no matter what your motives 
were. Consider what happened to Dumbledore. He was merely prepared to 
use his powers to impose his will on others, for the greater good. And 
he became a power addict. Part of his background manipulations can be 
blamed on his belief, probably correct, that if he assumed too much 
power, he would not be able to stop using it. So, normally, he acts in 
the background, giving people choices, but steering them into the choice 
he wants, rather than just saying, "Hey, go do this!"

For a real world example, consider two classes of drug addicts (note 
that I am not excluding the existence of other classes). The first, the 
most common, is those who used the drugs for the "good feeling" it gave 
them, and used them to the point where they needed the drugs just to 
feel normal. The second, also quite common, are those who were given 
drugs by physicians because they were in great pain, and were given them 
to feel more normal in the first place. The people in the second class 
are every bit as addicted as the people in the first class, but they are 
much more likely to seek out help before they "hit bottom", or to 
recognize the fact that they are addicted in the first place. But even 
so, the addiction is permanent; once addicted, always addicted.

And therein, once again in my opinion, lies the unforgivable nature of 
unforgivable curses. Because once you have cast them, the fact that you 
have becomes part of you. You are forever open to the temptation to cast 
them again, and the motivation required to cast them becomes less and 
less. Which means that those who have cast them become a danger to 
society, and, even if they resolve never to cast them again, need to 
remain vigilant, not only over casting those particular curses, but of 
casting anything even similar, or to getting into situations where they 
would be tempted to cast those curses.

Harry had to live a relatively quiet life afterwards (I am of the belief 
that the work he did with the Aurors was more of the nature of 
consulting than field work). Regardless of the motive, casting the 
unforgivables has put him in a position where he has to be careful, 
because it becomes that much easier to cast them again.

Please note that the reason for I put in all those qualifications is to 
ensure that people realize that I am putting out ideas for 
consideration, with the hope that those who disagree don't get overly 
emotional about it. It's certainly not because I may have cast a few 
unforgivables myself, right?

Bart



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 00:37:25 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 00:37:25 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmrc1n+r8js@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hms845+hsv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189018

Carol earlier:
> > The inconsistency is that she seems to be regarding Harry's reaction in this instance as righteous anger (justifiable anger at a wicked person for insulting a "very good" person) whereas bellatrix said in OoP, "righteous anger won't hurt me for long." Moreover, enjoyment of torturing someone (which she said was necessary for sustaining the curse and which Harry indeed feels in DH) is inconsistent with righteous anger.
> 
> Pippin:
> Harry himself is inconsistent.  
> 
> I think Harry's inconsistency, the inconsistency of the good guys in general, is what's subversive about the books.  Voldemort is consistently bad, but there's no character who is infallibly good, much as we might have hoped our favorites would qualify by the end.

Carol:
I understand your perspective, but I'm not at all sure that JKR is being deliberately subversive. (As Alla says, she seems to be following the genre conventions pretty closely in terms of the old mentor dying and Harry having to act on his own.) I agree that Harry is inconsistent, and that's as likely to be a flaw in characterization as a deliberate strategy. Yes, a good character should have his faults as well as his virtues, but he should not become more like the bad guys when it comes to Dark magic and Unforgiveable Curses as he grows up. On the contrary, since the novel is also a Bildungsroman, he should learn from his experiences and acquire wisdom. (We do see him learn forgiveness and learn to perceive other characters more clearly, a steady progression in that regard, IMO, but the business of casting Unforgiveables--and regarding Bellatrix as a kind of mentor with regard to them--is a major step in the wrong direction that Harry never openly acknowledges.
> 
Pippin:
> Righteous anger is what a saint would feel, and a saint wouldn't have hurt Amycus for long. Harry has his saintlier moments. But this isn't one of them.   He's let his anger (and his magic) run away with him. That definitely doesn't make him a saint. But it doesn't make him a monster either. 

Carol:
And yet when Bellatrix makes that remark about righteous anger not hurting her for long, Harry is feeling anything but saintlike. He's out to get her back for killing Sirius Black, just as he's out to get Snape back for killing Dumbledore when he tries (and fails) to hit him with a Crucio. In both of those instances, he's hurt and angry and vengeful, but that "righteous anger" fails to inflict any damage. Later, when he's angry on McGonagall's behalf (she calls him "gallant), he's also out for revenge (on a man he doesn't even know and doesn't realize once hit him with a Crucio that Harry at the time blamed on Snape). Is that "righteous anger," too? If so, why does it work? 

I'm not saying that Harry is a monster, but he's seen two people who *are* monsters--Voldemort and Bellatrix--derive pleasure from Crucioing people and has just condemned Crabbe and Goyle for doing that very thing. Monster, no. Hypocrite, yes.

As for JKR, she had a Death Eater posing as a teacher inform us that the curses were Unforgiveable. We saw that Death Eater cast all three Unforgiveables on spiders and one Unforgiveable on his own students, not to mention using one to kill his own father and another to force Krum to Crucio Cedric. And now Harry is following in his footsteps. Oops.

Pippin: 
>  The monster, the basilisk or the werewolf, has no choice but to obey its instincts. But Harry does.  Harry's sin is not in feeling angry but in failing to control his anger, and he does realize, a few moments later, that he's been out of control. "Somehow, her panic steadied him." 

Carol:
The point is not so much that Harry used the Unforgiveables as that he never regretted doing so. The Imperios were, I suppose, a necessary evil. Apparently, Confundus wouldn't have sufficed for Harry though it worked fine for Snape on Mundungus (another inconsistency?), but the Crucio was just plain unnecessary, figurative overkill, like burning a kid with a cigarette for sticking out his tongue. Sure, Amycus was a bad guy, but the specific crime didn't fit the punishment and it wasn't Harry's job to mete out punishment, or even to incapacitate him (which McGonagall accomplished quite easily without his help--herself resorting to an Unforgiveable! If Harry, the hero of the hour, can do it, she, Professor McGonagall, the deputy headmistress of Hogwarts, can do it--in front of a bunch of Ravenclaws to boot, IIRC.

Pippin:
> JKR is not dismissive of the interviewer's shock and disappointment.

Carol:
A matter of opinion, I think. To me she sounds defensive (remember her "How dare you" when someone asked if Lily had ever been a Death Eater?). And, as I said, she didn't answer the question about whether Harry ever regretted his action. She was too busy making the same argument that you're making--Harry is not and never was a saint. The problem is, we know that, but it doesn't answer the question.

The questioner wasn't asking *why* Harry cast the Crucio instead of a more appropriate spell, and even if she had asked that question, "Harry is not a saint" is not a sufficient answer. She's asking whether he ever regretted it, a point that JKR either ignored, glossed over, or forgot about because she was too busy defending her hero against imagined criticism.

 The reader is set up  to be shocked, IMO, as shocked as Harry feels whenever one of his idols crumbles into human clay, though if he were wiser he'd have known it all along.  What's being dismissed is the WW's idea that only a monster who ought to be locked up in Azkaban for life could be capable of such things. 

Pippin: 
> Harry needs to understand what he's capable of so that he can understand what Dumbledore and Snape were capable of and still see them as human and forgivable.

Carol:
Good point. Unfortunately, I don't think it comes across in the books. 

Pippin: 
> I agree that JKR sees more to regret in Harry's foolishness and impulsivity than she does in Amycus suffering a bit more cruelly than he should have, and that's where the emphasis is in the books. Harry acknowledges those at the time.  But Dumbledore's and Snape's stories have yet to teach Harry how dangerous such foolishness and impulsivity can be.  Once anger is in control, it doesn't care whether its victims deserve what they get or what the consequences could be. 

Carol:
Again, I agree that he has yet to see Snape's story and I think that's important. But the lesson he learns from that is never stated. Harry is understandably a bit more concerned with the message about the soul bit and having to choose to die. He does identify with the young Severus as one of the lost or forgotten boys (I've forgotten the term), but he also identifies with Tom Riddle at that point--not as someone capable of evil but choosing good (hardly the case for Tom Riddle) or someone who chooses forgiveness over anger (inapplicable in both cases) but just as someone for whom Hogwarts was home. Forgiveness and forgoing revenge--both central to the final chapters--occur only after the visit to DD in King's Cross, not as a result of Snape's memories in the Pensieve (which, nevertheless, have their effect in Harry's defense of the dead Snape).

But if Harry changes as a result of Snape's memories, it's not in understanding the dangers of impulsivity and anger. It's in learning to forgive. (All to the good, of course.)

Pippin:
> 
> This issue of control is central to the theme of DH, IMO. Harry loses control in all sorts of ways -- even his phoenix feather wand acts of its own accord. His coming of age is not so much about achieving independence but in gaining control of himself.

Carol:
Maybe. But we don't know if he will ever again be tempted to cast an Unforgiveable. We don't know if he'll ever again be uncontrollably angry. True, he casts an Expelliarmus as his "last, best hope," and he's certainly in control during his last confrontation with Voldemort, but we never see the process that led him there. Did it have anything to do with Snape's memories or only with King's Cross? Did he regret his earlier loss of control? We just don't know. 

Carol, snipping the part about Harry and Dumbledore, which is not part of my concern here





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 03:29:10 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 03:29:10 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hms845+hsv2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmsi66+8p3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189019



Right so this is the reply to both Pippin and Carol but only on the issue of subverting the jenre. Carol, a question just to make sure I do have the definition straight, what I mean by subversion of the genre and what i hope JKR means is basically flipping the genre inside out, while seemingly following the basic framework of it. I just want to make sure we are on the same page definitions wise. Or like the single book can also be subverted, like Wicked did with Wizard of OZ. So having said that, Pippin I am beyond confused why you would consider good guys not doing good deeds as conversion of the genre. It is not like good guys in the other books of this genre are perfection impersonated. And while I have very very little problem with Harry using Crucio on that person (yes, I think it was a very clear build up of righteous anger starting from him seeing Neville and his wounds), it is not like at the end of the book we are meant to commiserate about this lack of control being Harry's humongous flaw IMO. To be clear, I do not mean that it is downplayed, I just think that when end comes, what matters is Harry's self sacrifice and then him protecting everybody. So I do think that we are not meant at the end to see Harry as really grey character, but predominantly good guy with flaws. And I have no problem with it, I am just wondering where the subversion lies. As you know I consider Avatar to be the brilliant example of both staying true to the genre and subverting in a several ways. They follow the framework? Oh yeah they do, basics are all there, but they twist it too. And I am afraid I also do not follow the line of thought about Harry needing to consult Dumbledore to make sure he shows him what selflessness is. How is it not slavishly following his dead mentor? However I love love your point Pippin about Harry losing the ability to summon Dumbledore whenever he likes, I do think it should count as another coming of age moment, am actually quite happy because it is so canon based.See to me writing in this genre can mean a terrific book, I just wish JKR would not pretend that it was more than it is. Because yeah when you write about wizards and witches you DO write fantasy JKR, and yeah fantasy and science fiction could reflect plenty of real world issues and still remain fantasy and science fiction. I remember feeling quite annoyed when writers like Terry Pratchett and Ursula Le Guin (I think) reacted with annoyance about JKR putting down whole genre which produced so many amazing works. I was thinking no no she could not mean that, but now I do not know what else did she mean. Sorry for rambling and no quotes (nature of the device I am posting from does not allow it - either no quotes, or top post,but I just wanted to add to Carol's point that JKR seems to closely follow the genre not only in Chosen one relationship with his mentor, but also in the whole prophecy angle. I remember how so very dissapointed I was when prophecy was first introduced,simply because of sheer predictability of it. It definitely took time for me to adjust to it, but for some time I was so hoping, oh maybe it will not come to fruition, maybe it is for neville, maybe it is fake, some twist. Something anything. Oh well, again no biggie, this is the story she wanted to tell, but sorry this is another angle that could have been subverted and was not. 
JMO, Alla




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  6 16:09:41 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 16:09:41 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmsi66+8p3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmtuo5+j8k1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189020

Alla wrote:
> Right so this is the reply to both Pippin and Carol but only on the issue of subverting the jenre. Carol, a question just to make sure I do have the definition straight, what I mean by subversion of the genre and what i hope JKR means is basically flipping the genre inside out, while seemingly following the basic framework of it. I just want to make sure we are on the same page definitions wise. Or like the single book can also be subverted, like Wicked did with Wizard of OZ. <snip>

Carol responds:

Right. I agree with you that she didn't subvert the conventions of the heroic quest genre by making her good characters do bad things. What she did, IMO only, is confuse the issue. It's as if Dark magic is evil when the bad guys use it but okay for the good guys (except Dumbledore, who doesn't need to use it) if the good guys are good enough. (True, we can partially justify the two Imperius Curses through desperate circumstances, but that defense doesn't hold for the Crucio.)

As for giving characters faults, that's standard for any genre, including epic, fantasy, and heroic quest, all of which are blended in this book so as to be hardly distinguishable. (She also blends in other genres, the school story/Bildungsroman and even romantic comedy, but that's not subverting the genre, either.)

So, as far as I can tell, yes, we're on the same page here.

Carol, who thinks that JKR may be too close to her own work (and characters) to see them clearly and that she's not as sophisticated a writer as Pippin seems to think





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Mar  6 18:56:47 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 6 Mar 2010 18:56:47 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/7/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1267901807.490.75937.m14@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189021

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From deeoblockedo at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar  6 22:11:20 2010
From: deeoblockedo at yahoo.co.uk (deeoblockedo)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 22:11:20 -0000
Subject: Favourite book
Message-ID: <hmuju8+45ja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189022

Hi All,

I have searched for a similar topic but cant seem to find any, or anything recent anyway. Since there are new members etc. and things have slowed down slightly, I was wondering, out of the seven books in the series (or even the special books released) which is your favourite? And why, is it because it features a lot of your favourite character? Or introduced a new side of the Wizarding World? etc..

Just wondering,
Dee




From anime_yaoi_lover_2007 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 02:53:15 2010
From: anime_yaoi_lover_2007 at yahoo.com (Strider S)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 02:53:15 -0000
Subject: Favourite book
In-Reply-To: <hmuju8+45ja@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hmv4er+ah7d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189023

> Dee wrote:
>
> I have searched for a similar topic but cant seem to
find any, or anything recent anyway. Since there are
new members etc. and things have slowed down slightly,
I was wondering, out of the seven books in the series
(or even the special books released) which is your
favourite? And why, is it because it features a lot of
your favourite character? Or introduced a new side of
> the Wizarding World? etc..


Strider:
I have to say that my favorite book will have to be the
Half-Blood Prince, because it is really heart wrenching
just to see one of your favorite teachers, one that you
idolized and looked up to, like Harry saw when Snape
killed Dumbledore but, that's not why it's my favorite.
It's my favorite because they reveal Voldemort's past
like what was his relatives like and his parents  and
even, what he was like when he was a child.  And also
you kind of feel sorry for Severus having to take on 2
task that he must do.

Strider



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar  7 18:00:35 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 7 Mar 2010 18:00:35 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/7/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1267984835.551.56758.m10@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189024

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  7 18:05:47 2010
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 18:05:47 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 10, The Rogue Bludger
Message-ID: <hn0ptr+q6g9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189025

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

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(minus that extra space)

CoS Chapter Ten: The Rogue Bludger

Whew!  Busy chapter.

Harry begins the chapter playing supporting cast to Gilderoy Lockhart's escapades.  He submits to this because he, Ron and Hermione need a teacher's signature to get the book, Moste Potente Potions, from the restricted section of the library.  Once they have the book they go to Myrtle's girls' room where no one will disturb them.  They find that they need some ingredients which are not usually in the students' stores and that Polyjuice takes a month to brew.

The Quidditch game against Slytherin is the next day.  It is ominously thundering as the teams take the field.  Harry begins looking for the Snitch but finds that a Bludger has mysteriously attached itself to him and follows him no matter which way it's been hit.  Beaters Fred and George fly with him, knocking the Bludger away every time it attacks.  Gryffindor calls for a time out to discuss matters.  Oliver Wood wants Fred and George to patrol more of the field - their absence has resulted in lost points.  Harry agrees and says he will deal with the Bludger.  

He is successful at first but when he pays too much attention to Malfoy's taunts the Bludger hits him, breaking his arm.  At the same time he sees the Snitch by Malfoy's ear.  Harry dives, using only his legs to keep himself on his broom and captures the Snitch in his good left hand but he hits the ground because he can't control the broom with only his legs.  Lockhart tries to help but only succeeds in removing the bones entirely from Harry's arm.  Harry goes to the hospital wing where Madam Pomphrey administers Skele-Gro to re-grow the bones.

Dobby appears in the middle of the night to sponge Harry's head and ends up telling him that he was the one who charmed the Bludger in order to get Harry sent home injured.  He mentions that the Chamber of Secrets has been opened "once more."  Harry questions him but Dobby only tells him about his sad life with his master.

They hear someone coming and Dobby disappears without giving any answers.  Dumbledore and McGonagall, both dressed for bed, enter with what appears to be a statue.  Madam Pomphrey is called and she suggests that the victim must have been coming to see Harry.  Harry looks at the statue - it's Colin Creevey, still holding his camera.  When McGonagall asks if he might have gotten a picture of his attacker, Dumbledore opens the back of the camera.  A jet of steam hisses out and, three beds away, Harry can smell burning plastic.  Dumbledore reiterates Dobby's words, saying that the Chamber of Secrets has been reopened.  McGonagall asks who, Dumbledore thinks the better question is, How?

1.  Harry submits to being Lockhart's supporting player but when the trio get the signature all it takes is Hermione gushing over Lockhart's book, Gadding with Ghouls.  Was it necessary for Harry to have put himself through the play-acting?

2.  Moste Potente Potions is a musty book.  Are there other copies of this book around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request this copy very often?  Some of the illustrations are gruesome.  Would this be a book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier times?

3.  Harry, Fred and George all recognize that the rogue Bludger is attacking Harry.  Couldn't anyone else on the field see that?  Or is it that the game matters more than any individual thing going on?

4.  The Bludger doesn't attack during the time out but after the game an injured Harry notices Fred and George wrestling the Bludger into a box.  It is still fighting them.  Why did the Bludger not attack during the time out but apparently try to keep going after the game was finished?

5.  Could Colin Creevey have been coming to visit Harry?  How long was he petrified before Dumbledore found him, do you think?

6.  A Basilisk's gaze can kill.  When Dumbledore opens Colin's camera, a jet of steam hisses out.  Is this consistent, do you think, with the full effects of a Basilisk's stare?  Does the Basilisk's stare fry a person's insides, leaving a petrified shell?

7.  Harry thinks that McGonagall is just as puzzled as he is when Dumbledore said the more important question is how the Chamber is being opened.  Does Dumbledore know at this point that it would require the use of Parceltongue to open it?


Thanks, Alla and Gavin, for your help!

Ceridwen.


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 11, "The Dueling Club", on March 14,
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar  7 20:38:19 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 20:38:19 -0000
Subject: Chapdisc CoS 9 / Chapdisc CoS 10
Message-ID: <hn12rr+10sue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189027

Potioncat discussed CoS chapter 9 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189002>:

<< 2. What is Snape up to with his "Wrong place at the wrong time" speech? 3. What would have happened if Harry had told Dumbledore about the voices? >>

Since we found out about Legilimency, we can suppose that Snape was agitating Harry to bring his relevant thoughts to the top of his mind for Dumbledore to Legilimens. If so, then DD knew what Harry had heard even tho' Harry didn't tell him. If so, maybe we should re-examine the text from here until the snake duel incident for signs that DD was observing Harry for symptoms of mental illness and/or activation of the LV fragment inside him.

Carol answered the same question in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189006>:

<< It would have sped up the storyline considerably since DD (who can't, I think, hear the Basilisk himself even though he must suspect what it is and certainly knows the identity of the Heir of Slytherin) would have known for sure that Harry was a Parselmouth. As it is, I'm almost certain that he asked Snape to find that out, which is why Snape later had Draco cast Serpensortia in the dueling club and why he looked so shrewd (rather than shocked) when Harry actually spoke it.>>

I don't think DD already suspected it was a Basilisk. DD had only one Petrification at that time, not a pattern of Petrifications, and one normally doesn't associate Petrification with Basilisks (they kill, not petrify). Rowling cleverly set up a series of co-incidences such that none of the victims saw the Basilisk clear-on: the reflection in water for Mrs Norris, through the camera for Colin, etc.

I believe we learned in "King's Cross" that DD suspected Harry was a sort-of-Horcrux when he saw the fresh cut on baby Harry's forehead, so DD was probably mildly curious about whether the soul fragment transfers abilities to the human Horcrux, but he had no evidence yet indicating that Harry had Parseltongue ability.

If DD already knew that Harry was a Parselmouth, then learning of the voices could lead him to suspect it was a Basilisk, or if he already suspected it was a Basilisk, then learning of the voices could lead him to suspect that Harry was a Parseltongue, but if DD had neither of those suspicions already, then learning of the voices would be more likely to make him suspect that the soul fragment was speaking inside Harry's mind. That's what I meant by 'activation of the LV fragment inside him'.

So okay, if there was something about Myrtle's death that led DD to suspect a Basilisk then, he could have recalled that to suspect a Basilisk now, leading him to suspect Parseltongue. But Serpentsortia at the Duelling Club was a poor plan for testing the Parselmouth: Harry would never have spoken to it except that idiot Lockhart gigantified it, and Snape couldn't have known in advance that that was the mistake Lockhart would make.

Poohmeg wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189004>:

<< < 4. Why didn't JKR introduce Squibs in SS/PS? > There wasn't really an obvious place to bring it up - and it left something to reveal about Filch in this book. >>

Janelle replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189005>:

<< I think that she did through Neville's reference to being "all muggle"- she just didn't have or use the term. >>

Yes. That was at the Welcoming Feast in PS/SS: "Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch," said Neville, "but the family thought I was all-Muggle for ages. My Great Uncle Algie kept trying to catch me off my guard and force some magic out of me -- he pushed me off the end of Blackpool pier once, I nearly drowned -- but nothing happened until I was eight. Great Uncle Algie came round for dinner, and he was hanging me out of an upstairs window by the ankles when my Great Auntie Enid offered him a meringue and he accidentally let go. But I bounced -- all the way down the garden and into the road. They were all really pleased, Gran was crying, she was so happy. And you should have seen their faces when I got in here -- they thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see. Great Uncle Algie was so pleased he bought me my toad."

That Neville's grandmother is a witch but thought that Neville might be "all Muggle"  gave me the erroneous impression for a long time that he was half-and-half like Seamus. I even thought that his witch mother had died of a broken heart after being deserted by his Muggle father, before I knew that was Tom Riddle's story.

Ceridwen discussed CoS Chapter 10 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189025>:

<< 2. Moste Potente Potions is a musty book. Are there other copies of this book around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request this copy very often? Some of the illustrations are gruesome. Would this be a book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier times? >>

PS/SS said: "Harry wandered over to the Restricted Section. He had been wondering for a while if Flamel wasn't somewhere in there. Unfortunately, you needed a specially signed note from one of the teachers to look in any of the restricted books, and he knew he'd never get one. These were the books containing powerful Dark Magic never taught at Hogwarts, and only read by older students studying advanced Defense Against the Dark Arts."

If only some of the potions from Moste Potente Potions are too Dark to teach at Hogwarts and some of the others are taught in Advanced Potions, maybe they use an edition titled The Least Bad of Moste Potente Potions.





From immortal1blue at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 00:50:40 2010
From: immortal1blue at yahoo.com (immortal1blue)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 00:50:40 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 10, The Rogue Bludger
In-Reply-To: <hn0ptr+q6g9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn1hl0+1tg0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189028

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at ...> wrote:

> CoS Chapter Ten: The Rogue Bludger

> 2.  Moste Potente Potions is a musty book.  Are there other copies of this book around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request this copy very often?  Some of the illustrations are gruesome.  Would this be a book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier times?


There is surely more than one book that tells of polyjuice potion. That just happens to be the book Snape pointed out and Hermione learned of polyjuice potion then. Snape must like gruesome little drawings teehee.


> 4.  The Bludger doesn't attack during the time out but after the game an injured Harry notices Fred and George wrestling the Bludger into a box.  It is still fighting them.  Why did the Bludger not attack during the time out but apparently try to keep going after the game was finished?



Maybe a game time-out is different. The other balls don't attach when time-outs are called. Maybe the balls aren't allowed to attack anyone who isn't on a broomstick or in the air. Maybe they erect a force field to keep the balls from attacking while they have a time-out.

As for the bludger still fighting afterward, do the other normal bludgers always fight or can they be "turned off" after a game is done? Is it unusual for a bludger to still be fighting after a game? It might be because this is not Harry's first quidditch game. It's unlikely this is the first time he's seen someone putting away the balls. It's interesting to note that it's Fred and George who are responsible for the rogue bludger instead of a teacher or something. Does no one care that the ball has been tampered with to kill a player?

Maybe it's always the beaters job to put the bludgers away after a game.

arwen17





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 15:36:04 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:36:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 10, The Rogue Bludger
In-Reply-To: <hn0ptr+q6g9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn35h4+d6k2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189029



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at ...> wrote:
> <SNIP of summary>

1.	Harry submits to being Lockhart's supporting player but when the trio gets
the signature all it takes is Hermione gushing over Lockhart's book, Gadding
with Ghouls. Was it necessary for Harry to have put himself through the
play-acting?

Alla:

Poor Harry, lol, I am sure he would have avoided it if he could, but I know this was not your question. To answer it, I guess I would say that while Harry and Ron begin to see that Lockhart is an easy prey to flattery, I do not think they can be 100% sure of just *how easy* of the prey he is. So while I do not think it was necessary, I can see why he thought it was.


2. Moste Potente Potions is a musty book. Are there other copies of this book
around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request
this copy very often? Some of the illustrations are gruesome. Would this be a
book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier
times?

Alla:

NO clue whatsoever, but sure I think it is reasonable to assume that he has some copies for advanced students, whom he may not think of as dunderheads, lol. Relic from earlier times? You mean from the times Filch dreams of? Students hanged on the ceiling by their ankles?

I do not know, I would say it is still being used, but just speculating.

3. Harry, Fred and George all recognize that the rogue Bludger is attacking
Harry. Couldn't anyone else on the field see that? Or is it that the game
matters more than any individual thing going on?

Alla:

I would definitely say that game matters more than any individual thing going on. I hope I am not having movie contamination when I am thinking about Oliver telling Harry about people dying during Quidditch? However, I was never sure if this was a stuff of school legends or true story, but even if those were legends and people do not go to the feel expecting to die, I think certain injuries are definitely expected. But then Fred and George, experienced players, consider the matter serious enough to voice it. I do not know.

7. Harry thinks that McGonagall is just as puzzled as he is when Dumbledore
said the more important question is how the Chamber is being opened. Does
Dumbledore know at this point that it would require the use of Parceltongue to
open it?


Alla:

I would not put it past him; I am more annoyed that he says that "How" is more important question than "Who". Did he seriously know who was doing it? Not that I would put anything past him at this point.


Thanks for the cool questions Ceridwen and I have couple of mine.


1. I think this quote in essence sums up books' philosophy about breaking the rules for good purpose. Do you agree or disagree?

"I do not want to break the rules, you know. I think threatening muggle-borns is far worse than brewing a difficult potion"

2. "I've just seen Marcus Flint yelling at Malfoy. Something about having the Snitch on the top of his head and not noticing. Malfoy did not seem too happy"

Does this convince you that Slytherin team did want good Seeker on their team and not just somebody whose Daddy bought them nice brooms or not?

Alla








From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 03:47:05 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 03:47:05 -0000
Subject: Why unforgiveable?
In-Reply-To: <4B9144A7.90903@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hn4gbp+3ko7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189030



> Bart:
> There's a current conversation about Harry's use of crucio and other 
> unforgivable curses. Which means that it might be useful looking at the 
> unforgivable curses in general. Here's my take:
> 
> In the Potterverse, there are 3 curses which are considered 
> "unforgivable". Yet, Harry performs two of them, and tries to perform 
> the third.
> 
> Now, of course, there is the bumbling bureaucracy in the Potterverse, 
> and they have certain penalties for the three curses (rather than using 
> the cutesy names, I'll use what the curses do: extreme pain, replacing 
> another's free will with your own, and death). But let's look at the 
> idea that the "unforgivable" came BEFORE the bureaucracy.
> 
>
snip
> Add to this what we know about the unforgivables; they don't work unless 
> you really WANT them to work. You need to really WANT someone to 
> experience pain, to experience death, to impose your will upon theirs.
> 
>
snip
> so, the addiction is permanent; once addicted, always addicted.
> 
> And therein, once again in my opinion, lies the unforgivable nature of 
> unforgivable curses. Because once you have cast them, the fact that you 
> have becomes part of you. You are forever open to the temptation to cast 
> them again, 
snip> 
> 
> Bart
>

Nikkalmati

I rather like your take on the Unforgivables, but I have always held a rather diffferent idea.  I don't see the Unforgivables as morally reprehensible in all cases.  Most if not all spells require that you really want them to work.  There are plenty of very evil spells out there too (what about the evicerating spell?).  I think these three spells are just ones the bureauacracy has decided are worthy of Azkaban.  Maybe they were considered a greater threat to society than others.  Maybe they were associated with Death Eaters.  In any case, I don't think JKR intended them to be the heighth of evil - just very severely punished by the Ministry.

Nikkalmati 




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 04:02:37 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 04:02:37 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hmrc1n+r8js@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn4h8t+v7hl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189031



> 
> Pippin:
> Harry himself is inconsistent.  
> 
> I think Harry's inconsistency, the inconsistency of the good guys in general, is what's subversive about the books.  Voldemort is consistently bad, but there's no character who is infallibly good, much as we might have hoped our favorites would qualify by the end. 
> 
>
snip
>Pippin


Nikkalmati

JKR goes out of her way to show each of the good guys doing something wrong.  It can't be just a coincidence.  We see that James and Sirius were bullies.  She paints Lupin as a coward for going along with his friends and then in DH she has Harry berate Lupin for trying to abandon his family.  She shows DD has made mistakes as a youth through arrogance, but also that he creates a serious problem by putting on the ring which is the resurrection stone.  He is unable to resist it despite knowing it might be cursed.  He also states he could never allow himself to exercise the powere of the ministry.  Ron abandons his friends.  Hermione's bad acts have been discussed at length.  Now even Harry and McGonnagal cast Unforgivables.  I must assume she wants us to see that making bad choices and doing wrong things are part of human nature - no one is immune.

Nikkalmati
> 
> >





From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 19:22:54 2010
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:22:54 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 10, The Rogue Bludger
In-Reply-To: <hn0ptr+q6g9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn676e+9pgo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189032

1.  Harry submits to being Lockhart's supporting player but when the trio get the signature all it takes is Hermione gushing over Lockhart's book, Gadding with Ghouls.  Was it necessary for Harry to have put himself through the play-acting?

Janelle:
I agree with what others have said- looking back, it probably wasn't necessary for Harry to play along with Lockhart as much as he did (although I'm sure it didn't hurt), but Harry didn't know that and so it was probably a good idea to keep Lockhart happy until they got what they needed from him.

2.  Moste Potente Potions is a musty book.  Are there other copies of this book around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request this copy very often?  Some of the illustrations are gruesome.  Would this be a book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier times?

Janelle:
I think that this particular book probably isn't used very often and might even be well known for the dark potions it contains (this is probably why Snape mentioned it- trying to impress and intimidate the class with his advanced knowledge or something).  I think Snape probably owns his own copy of the book.
 
3.  Harry, Fred and George all recognize that the rogue Bludger is attacking Harry.  Couldn't anyone else on the field see that?  Or is it that the game matters more than any individual thing going on?

Janelle:
I do think it's slightly odd that no one else noticed.  Well, let me rephrase: I think that people probably did notice, they just didn't read as much into it as Harry and the other Gryffindors did.  Others probably just thought that it was odd, but not that the bludger had been tampered with.  I do wonder why both Weasley's left the bludger to Harry- I know that Wood told them to, but wouldn't it make sense for one of them to stick close to Harry while the other patrols the rest of the pitch?
 
4.  The Bludger doesn't attack during the time out but after the game an injured Harry notices Fred and George wrestling the Bludger into a box.  It is still fighting them.  Why did the Bludger not attack during the time out but apparently try to keep going after the game was finished?

Janelle:
This is pure speculation, but maybe the Bludger was bewitched to go after Harry until it got him, but still had to obey the basic rules of the game (including honoring time outs)?
 
5.  Could Colin Creevey have been coming to visit Harry?  How long was he petrified before Dumbledore found him, do you think?
 
Janelle: I think Colin probably was going to visit Harry.  As for how long he was petrified- possibly for awhile.  Harry had already been sleeping for awhile before he's woken up by Dobby and then sees Dumbledore bring Colin in- it was then probably sometime between bedtime and when Harry was woken up (whenever those are).  This question makes me wonder again about why Dumbledore was out and about and able to find Colin.

6.  A Basilisk's gaze can kill.  When Dumbledore opens Colin's camera, a jet of steam hisses out.  Is this consistent, do you think, with the full effects of a Basilisk's stare?  Does the Basilisk's stare fry a person's insides, leaving a petrified shell?

Janelle:
I don't think so.  When the Basilisk kills someone, they aren't petrified (Harry sees that limp arm of Myrtle's in Riddle's diary).  
 
7.  Harry thinks that McGonagall is just as puzzled as he is when Dumbledore said the more important question is how the Chamber is being opened.  Does Dumbledore know at this point that it would require the use of Parceltongue to open it?

Janelle:
I don't think he does.  If so, it would be a lot easier to take the next step of realizing that Voldemort must be possessing someone at the school and using them to open the Chamber.  I do think it's possible that he has that suspicion, but I'm not convinced of it.  I think all Dumbledore knows at this point is that, somehow, Voldemort is behind it all.

8.  My own question:  Thinking through the things that happen in this chapter- do you think Dumbledore ever suspects Harry?  (I don't mean that DD thinks Harry is purposely doing this- but that maybe Harry is the one being taken over by Voldemort- or Voldemort's soul-piece that lives instead him?)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar  9 22:18:31 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:18:31 -0000
Subject: Why unforgiveable?
In-Reply-To: <hn4gbp+3ko7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn6hfn+rvv4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189033


> Nikkalmati
>   I think these three spells are just ones the bureauacracy has decided are worthy of Azkaban.  Maybe they were considered a greater threat to society than others.  Maybe they were associated with Death Eaters.  In any case, I don't think JKR intended them to be the heighth of evil - just very severely punished by the Ministry.
> 

Pippin:
I think the clue to why they're severely punished is in  Snape's jeer that Harry lacks the nerve and the ability to do them and  fake Moody's explanation that AK needs a lot of magical power behind it. If relatively few wizards have the ability, then this is another case of the Ministry making a show of solving a problem while not actually doing  much about it. It would be like having  zero tolerance for criminals using exotic, high-powered firearms when most shootings involve  Saturday night specials. 

Pippin
 










From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar  9 23:28:18 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:28:18 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hn4h8t+v7hl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn6lii+h5kp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189034

 
> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> JKR goes out of her way to show each of the good guys doing something wrong.  It can't be just a coincidence.  We see that James and Sirius were bullies.  She paints Lupin as a coward for going along with his friends and then in DH she has Harry berate Lupin for trying to abandon his family.  She shows DD has made mistakes as a youth through arrogance, but also that he creates a serious problem by putting on the ring which is the resurrection stone.  He is unable to resist it despite knowing it might be cursed.  He also states he could never allow himself to exercise the powere of the ministry.  Ron abandons his friends.  Hermione's bad acts have been discussed at length.  Now even Harry and McGonnagal cast Unforgivables.  I must assume she wants us to see that making bad choices and doing wrong things are part of human nature - no one is immune.

Pippin:
I think she also wants us to see that  the conventional fantasy universe, where "one step down the dark path and it will forever dominate your destiny" is a distortion of reality. There isn't really a progression between the selfish, cruel, greedy, power-hungry indifference of ordinary evil and the conscienceless behavior of a psychopath. No matter how many bad choices Crouch Sr. and Peter Pettigrew make they don't become like Voldemort, forever incapable of remorse.

 Tolkien and Lewis revived the heroic fantasy genre because they thought that the novel was inadequate to deal with the problem of evil in the modern world. How could individual character flaws account for an entire civilized nation going bad? So they re-introduced the idea of cosmic evil as  a force in human affairs and this idea has become embedded in the genre. I think it's this idea that JKR subverts.  

The hero of a conventional fantasy must realize that he is on the verge of becoming totally evil and make a choice that saves him (or, like Frodo Baggins, find that a past choice has made it possible for him to be saved.)  

For years we speculated about how this little drama would play out in the Potterverse. But, IMO, JKR always intended to show up the convention for what it was: a fiction that led us to sacrifice truth for clarity.

It took bad choices, but also the ability to make bad choices, to make  Voldemort what he was. Harry can choose not to restrain his hatred, but he can't easily quench his ability to love. And that makes a difference between him and Voldemort. 

I think it's why he fails at the cruciatus curse he aims at Bella. Though his wish to  avenge Sirius propels him to chase Bella down, he only tries to cruciate her when she mocks his love. He's angry, he hates her, but it's not the same as a desire for revenge.

 Harry does want revenge on Amycus. But he didn't use the cruciatus curse  because he was on the verge of becoming eeevil, he just lost his temper. And McGonagall is on the verge of panic when she Imperio's the Carrows, as Harry and Hermione were when they were in Gringotts.

 We don't know whether Dumbledore was panicking or  enraged when he used deadly force in the altercation with Grindelwald and his brother, but it's clear he lost control. What Dumbledore did was very wrong, but it didn't destroy his conscience, far from it. 

Carol said that Harry had crossed a line. But Harry crosses lines all the time. People in canon are always drawing lines and trying to make other people feel bad about crossing them. But no one is ever sorry because they crossed a line, only that the consequences aren't what they intended. And that's what's key.

Voldemort, Umbridge, Crouch Jr, Bella, Fenrir, Lockhart --  the really bad people in the Potterverse never feel sorry for  anything they've done, and no amount of pain or loss can make them do so. 

Pippin




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 00:00:03 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:00:03 -0000
Subject: Chapdisc CoS 9 / Chapdisc CoS 10
In-Reply-To: <hn12rr+10sue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn6ne3+f9mj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189035



> << 2. Moste Potente Potions is a musty book. Are there other copies of this book around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request this copy very often? Some of the illustrations are gruesome. Would this be a book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier times? >>

Catlady responded: 
> PS/SS said: "Harry wandered over to the Restricted Section. He had been wondering for a while if Flamel wasn't somewhere in there. Unfortunately, you needed a specially signed note from one of the teachers to look in any of the restricted books, and he knew he'd never get one. These were the books containing powerful Dark Magic never taught at Hogwarts, and only read by older students studying advanced Defense Against the Dark Arts."
> 
> If only some of the potions from Moste Potente Potions are too Dark to teach at Hogwarts and some of the others are taught in Advanced Potions, maybe they use an edition titled The Least Bad of Moste Potente Potions.

Carol responds:
LOL. JKR's description of the books in the Restricted Section doesn't quite fit Polyjuice Potion, does it? But the passage makes an interesting connection between potion-making, the subject, obviously, of Moste Potente Potions, and students of advanced Defense Against the Dark Arts--in a word, the young Severus Snape, who probably spent a lot of time in the Restricted Section, especially after OWL year. I think we're seeing one of the connections between CoS and HBP here and getting our first hint (to be followed by the Duelling Club) that Snape is an expert in DADA as well as Potions and has good reason to want to teach that class (perhaps thinking that he could undo the jinx?).

Carol, curious as to why Catlady thinks that Snape had Draco cast Serpensortia if it wasn't to find out whether Harry was a Parseltongue





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 00:26:51 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:26:51 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 10, The Rogue Bludger
In-Reply-To: <hn35h4+d6k2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn6p0b+dj8o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189036

 
> 2. Moste Potente Potions is a musty book. Are there other copies of this book around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request this copy very often? Some of the illustrations are gruesome. Would this be a book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier times?
> 
Alla reaponded:
> 
> NO clue whatsoever, but sure I think it is reasonable to assume that he has some copies for advanced students, whom he may not think of as dunderheads, lol. Relic from earlier times? You mean from the times Filch dreams of? Students hanged on the ceiling by their ankles?
> 
> I do not know, I would say it is still being used, but just speculating.

Carol adds:
I wonder, though, how many students of Advanced Potions are also interested in DADA. Can you imagine Lily checking out that book? But Teen Severus would have been familiar with it, I'm sure, and perhaps future Auror Tonks checked it out when she was in school because she needed to be an expert in both subjects. But other than those two except Tom Riddle--and Dumbledore--who might have been interested in that book (for very different reasons, of course). My point is that the book would have been musty because it was rarely used and only by particular highly motivated students.

I suspect that, as someone else said, Polyjuice Potion was in other books as well, possibly the NEWT Potions book, although it could not have been made during a class session. It would have to be an end-of-term project for the seventh years or something like that.
 
> 3. Harry, Fred and George all recognize that the rogue Bludger is attacking Harry. Couldn't anyone else on the field see that? Or is it that the game matters more than any individual thing going on?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I would definitely say that game matters more than any individual thing going on. I hope I am not having movie contamination when I am thinking about Oliver telling Harry about people dying during Quidditch? However, I was never sure if this was a stuff of school legends or true story, but even if those were legends and people do not go to the feel expecting to die, I think certain injuries are definitely expected. But then Fred and George, experienced players, consider the matter serious enough to voice it. I do not know.

Carol:
Then, again, it's the job of the Beaters to hit the Bludgers and direct them at various opposing players. Harry was specifically aware of the Bludger because it was focusing on him and Fred and George because it was their job to watch the Bludgers. No doubt the Slytherins, at least the Beaters and Seeker, were aware of it, too, but not about to complain. The other Gryffindor players might have been dimly aware that the Beaters weren't doing their usual good job of keeping off the normal Bludger, but they probably were too focused on their own jobs (scoring or blocking goals) to pay attention to the Seeker, who would also, IIRC, have been playing in a different part of the pitch, usually higher in the air than the other players. So, yes, it's partly that the game matters more to them than what was happening to Harry, but it would also have been outside their field of vision. And the same would be true of the spectators, who would be more likely to watch the Chasers and Keepers than the Seeker, who is usually just watching for the Snitch unless he happens to be chasing the Snitch (or feinting) in which case all eyes would be on him.
> 
> 7. Harry thinks that McGonagall is just as puzzled as he is when Dumbledore said the more important question is how the Chamber is being opened. Does Dumbledore know at this point that it would require the use of Parceltongue to open it?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I would not put it past him; I am more annoyed that he says that "How" is more important question than "Who". Did he seriously know who was doing it? Not that I would put anything past him at this point.
>
Carol:
I think that he means that the "who" has to be Voldemort, but the question is how Voldemort, who is currently vapor and not possessing anyone, could possibly open the Chamber of Secrets. DD knows who the Heir of Slytherin is (Riddle/Voldemort) and that he opened it the first time. According to the words on the wall, the Heir has opened it again ("Enemies of the Heir, Beware"). But DD certainly doesn't know about the diary or that the soul bit in it is possessing Ginny. He does, however, suspect that a soul bit is in Harry's scar--and Harry *was* in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Carol, who still thinks that DD asked Snape to find a way to see whether Harry was a Parselmouth and that Serpensortia was intended to serve that purpose




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 10 17:11:01 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:11:01 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 10, The Rogue Bludger
In-Reply-To: <hn0ptr+q6g9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn8jr5+1r2d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189037


> 1.  Harry submits to being Lockhart's supporting player but when the trio get the signature all it takes is Hermione gushing over Lockhart's book, Gadding with Ghouls.  Was it necessary for Harry to have put himself through the play-acting?

Pippin:
Lockhart might not have done it if he was in a bad mood over Harry's refusal to cooperate.

> 
> 2.  Moste Potente Potions is a musty book.  Are there other copies of this book around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request this copy very often?  Some of the illustrations are gruesome.  Would this be a book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier times?

Pippin:
I thought  the illustrations were of things that could go wrong, preparing us for Hermione's problems.  Possibly all the copies in better shape have already been checked out by older students. 

> 
> 3.  Harry, Fred and George all recognize that the rogue Bludger is attacking Harry.  Couldn't anyone else on the field see that?  Or is it that the game matters more than any individual thing going on?

Pippin:
I don't know why asking for an inquiry should mean forfeiting the match, but that's what Harry thinks and Oliver doesn't deny it. So it's not in a Gryffindor supporter's interest to point out what's going on unless they think they are going to lose anyway, and it's not in Slytherin's interest at all.

> 
> 4.  The Bludger doesn't attack during the time out but after the game an injured Harry notices Fred and George wrestling the Bludger into a box.  It is still fighting them.  Why did the Bludger not attack during the time out but apparently try to keep going after the game was finished?

Pippin:
Ask Dobby :) He might have thought the time out meant Harry was going to give up.

> 
> 5.  Could Colin Creevey have been coming to visit Harry?  How long was he petrified before Dumbledore found him, do you think?

Pippin:
I don't think he could have been there long. A ghost would probably have noticed him. 

Since Harry has been shut in the hospital wing, regrowing all the bones in his arm, it would seem that Harry is not acting for the Heir. He was in no condition to be prowling the castle looking for a random victim, nor could he  know Colin Creevy was on his way. But someone did. That fits with the later evidence that the culprit must be a Gryffindor. 
 

> 
> 6.  A Basilisk's gaze can kill.  When Dumbledore opens Colin's camera, a jet of steam hisses out.  Is this consistent, do you think, with the full effects of a Basilisk's stare?  Does the Basilisk's stare fry a person's insides, leaving a petrified shell?

Pippin:
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that looking through a camera would alter the killing effect  while looking through a pair of glasses wouldn't. But magic isn't supposed to make sense to us Muggle types. The basilisk's stare works differently on different kinds of matter. It even works on ghosts, but doesn't turn them  solid. 


> 
> 7.  Harry thinks that McGonagall is just as puzzled as he is when Dumbledore said the more important question is how the Chamber is being opened.  Does Dumbledore know at this point that it would require the use of Parceltongue to open it?

Pippin:
He probably realizes it requires parseltongue to control the monster. That, more than opening the chamber, is why Dumbledore would suspect Voldemort himself and not one of his minions. 

Pippin





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 18:15:25 2010
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:15:25 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hn6lii+h5kp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn8njt+e961@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189038

> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > JKR goes out of her way to show each of the good guys doing something wrong.  It can't be just a coincidence.  

<snip> 

>Now even Harry and McGonnagal cast Unforgivables.  I must assume she wants us to see >that making bad choices and doing wrong things are part of human nature - no one is >immune.


> Pippin:
> I think she also wants us to see that  the conventional fantasy universe, where "one step down the dark path and it will forever dominate your destiny" is a distortion of reality. There isn't really a progression between the selfish, cruel, greedy, power-hungry indifference of ordinary evil and the conscienceless behavior of a psychopath. No matter how many bad choices Crouch Sr. and Peter Pettigrew make they don't become like Voldemort, forever incapable of remorse.
>

Montavilla47:

I haven't read as much fantasy as probably most readers have, but I don't get
"one step" forever dominates anyone's destiny.  It's very much the opposite, I think,
in fantasy, where people seem to take bad choices a lot, but always have the 
potential to turn it around.

Even Gollum can find a certain redemption.

As far as Crouch, Sr. goes, I don't think he's ever presented as someone 
evil.  He's simply a tragic figure who sacrifices his family (through neglect)
in order to protect his community.  According to Sirius (who suffers from
his policies), he went too far.  But there's not even the slightest hint that
he's on Voldemort's side.

Actually, the "moral" of Crouch, Sr. *appears* to be that a warning against
extremism in pursuit of the greater good.  Right?  Doesn't Sirius's story
tell us that you can become the enemy by giving up your principles in 
trying to destroy your enemy?

That's what I took from his story.  

Pippin:
>  Tolkien and Lewis revived the heroic fantasy genre because they thought that the novel was inadequate to deal with the problem of evil in the modern world. How could individual character flaws account for an entire civilized nation going bad? So they re-introduced the idea of cosmic evil as  a force in human affairs and this idea has become embedded in the genre. I think it's this idea that JKR subverts.  
>

Montavilla47:
Interesting.  I thought that Lewis was much more on a human level of good/bad,
though.  I suppose the Witch is cosmically evil, but the real battle isn't over the
world, but the soul of one person at a time.

Pippin:
> The hero of a conventional fantasy must realize that he is on the verge of becoming totally evil and make a choice that saves him (or, like Frodo Baggins, find that a past choice has made it possible for him to be saved.)  
> 

Montavilla47:

Again, in the case of Lewis, Edmund doesn't really make a choice that saves 
him.  He *is* saved, and thereafter makes good choices.  Same with Eustace.
I think it's pretty much the same with Jill.  She makes really bad choices for a 
long time, and then she's saved twice by others.  Once by a dream, and a once
by waking up out of a dream.

But I think that distinguishes the Potterverse characters from the Narnia 
characters is that the Narnia kids always seem to develop a bit of self-
awareness.  Edmund realizes that his selfishness nearly lost the war (even
if he's never told how much it cost) and his recognition of that informs
the rest of his life (as we're told in the final chapter of LWW).  Eustace
continues to struggle with being good even after he's saved, but he keeps
trying even in the bleakest of school settings.  Lucy only ever has one 
small slip-up, but she immediately realizes that she was wrong about it.
And even Susan, who is condemned for her distraction with boys and 
make-up, isn't lost forever.  She's just forgotten what's important.  There's
hope that someday she'll come back to an awareness of Narnia.

Pippin:
> For years we speculated about how this little drama would play out in the Potterverse. But, IMO, JKR always intended to show up the convention for what it was: a fiction that led us to sacrifice truth for clarity.

Montavilla47:
So, if I understand you, you're saying that we were expecting Harry to 
have to make a choice about becoming totally evil or not?  I can't say
that I was ever expecting that to be an issue.  I never, never imagined
that Harry would be tempted to become evil.

Which is why the whole use of Unforgivables by Harry confuses me.  I 
mean, if there was going to be that kind of a story arc, I think it would
be just as conventional to have it played out by a more ambiguous 
character.  Like, say, Draco.

Which appeared to be happening in HBP.  And, come to think of it,
Draco *does* the same thing Harry does in DH.  He uses Imperious 
because it proves to be rather useful.  He uses Crucio because he's
angry.  And he's expected to Avada Kadavra Dumbledore, but he 
doesn't.  Quite a parallel with Harry.  In Harry's case, the AK isn't
needed because Harry lucks out.  In Draco's case, it isn't needed
because Snape is there to cover everyone's behinds.

The main difference between Draco's story and Harry's (beyond
the obvious difference of which side they are initially on), is that
Draco comes to regret his use of Unforgivables (at least with Crucio),
while there is no indication that Harry would change a thing about
his actions were he to do it over again.

Pippin:
> It took bad choices, but also the ability to make bad choices, to make  Voldemort what he was. Harry can choose not to restrain his hatred, but he can't easily quench his ability to love. And that makes a difference between him and Voldemort. 
>
> I think it's why he fails at the cruciatus curse he aims at Bella. Though his wish to  avenge Sirius propels him to chase Bella down, he only tries to cruciate her when she mocks his love. He's angry, he hates her, but it's not the same as a desire for revenge.
> 
>  Harry does want revenge on Amycus. But he didn't use the cruciatus curse  because he was on the verge of becoming eeevil, he just lost his temper. And McGonagall is on the verge of panic when she Imperio's the Carrows, as Harry and Hermione were when they were in Gringotts.
> 
>  We don't know whether Dumbledore was panicking or  enraged when he used deadly force in the altercation with Grindelwald and his brother, but it's clear he lost control. What Dumbledore did was very wrong, but it didn't destroy his conscience, far from it. 
> 
> Carol said that Harry had crossed a line. But Harry crosses lines all the time. People in canon are always drawing lines and trying to make other people feel bad about crossing them. But no one is ever sorry because they crossed a line, only that the consequences aren't what they intended. And that's what's key.
> 
> Voldemort, Umbridge, Crouch Jr, Bella, Fenrir, Lockhart --  the really bad people in the Potterverse never feel sorry for  anything they've done, and no amount of pain or loss can make them do so. 

Montavilla47:
So, the reason that Hermione, say, never feels sorry for what she does to
Marietta or Umbridge is because there were no bad consequences to her 
actions (for Hermione).

And the reason Bella never feels sorry for torturing Hermione or the 
Longbottoms is that she's really bad. Because Bella did get sent to 
Azkaban for torturing the Longbottoms, so she did have some bad
consequences for her actions--and it didn't make her reflect.  It just
made her insane.

Actually, the really bad people in Potterverse do seem to be insane.
Clinically insane.  

What I think JKR does that is subversive--not necessarily to fantasy, but
to storytelling in general--is to erase the lines between good and evil.

I mean, in GoF, she does seem to be giving us a cautionary tale about 
adopting your enemy's tactics with the story of Crouch, Sr.  (Although
there's not a clear line between Crouch's tactics and his son going bad.
Crouch, Jr. seems to just be bad for his own reasons.)  

But in DH, there's no spell or tactic used by the bad guys that are off-
limits to the good guys.  So, we're left with the impression that the main
difference between the good guys and the bad guys is that the bad 
guys will go out of their way to hurt you, while the good guys won't 
bother unless you piss them off.

Which may not be a convention common to children's literature, but
it's very conventional to action-adventure and revenge fantasies.  






From deeoblockedo at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 10 20:06:45 2010
From: deeoblockedo at yahoo.co.uk (deeoblockedo)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:06:45 -0000
Subject: Favourite book
In-Reply-To: <hmv4er+ah7d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hn8u4l+9rdg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189039


> Strider wrote:
> I have to say that my favorite book will have to be the
> Half-Blood Prince, because it is really heart wrenching
> just to see one of your favorite teachers, one that you
> idolized and looked up to, like Harry saw when Snape
> killed Dumbledore but, that's not why it's my favorite.
> It's my favorite because they reveal Voldemort's past
> like what was his relatives like and his parents  and
> even, what he was like when he was a child.  And also
> you kind of feel sorry for Severus having to take on 2
> task that he must do.


Hi Strider,

HBP is my favourite book as well, for most of the reasons
you mentioned.  But particularly the finding out about
Voldemort's past and even Snape's past. Voldemort's history
was something I was looking forward to from COS when we met
Diary!Riddle and was pleased there was so much!

>From the first chapter in HBP I was drawn in immediately to
the situation with Snape and Narcissa and was geniunely sad
when Dumbledore was killed at the end. (I am glad he was put
out of his suffering which we find in DH)

Also I like the foreshadowing that would lead to Dumbledore's
past in DH- the burnt hand etc.

Dee



From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 04:12:47 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:12:47 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hn4h8t+v7hl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hncevv+24jo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189040



> 
> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> JKR goes out of her way to show each of the good guys doing something wrong.  It can't be just a coincidence.  We see that James and Sirius were bullies.  She paints Lupin as a coward for going along with his friends and then in DH she has Harry berate Lupin for trying to abandon his family.  She shows DD has made mistakes as a youth through arrogance, but also that he creates a serious problem by putting on the ring which is the resurrection stone.  He is unable to resist it despite knowing it might be cursed.  He also states he could never allow himself to exercise the powere of the ministry.  Ron abandons his friends.  Hermione's bad acts have been discussed at length.  Now even Harry and McGonnagal cast Unforgivables.  I must assume she wants us to see that making bad choices and doing wrong things are part of human nature - no one is immune.
> 
> Nikkalmati
> > 
> > >
>
Nikkalmatti

(Responding to myself).  Also, JKR also spends a lot of time giving us the idea that it is wrong to fear a name and we celebrate that Harry is not afraid to say "Voldemort".  Then she turns it around and the Trio is captured by Snatchers because Harry says Voldemort's name. 

Nikkalmati  




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 17:27:58 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:27:58 -0000
Subject: Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless
In-Reply-To: <hn8njt+e961@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hndtiu+4590@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189041


Pippin:
I think she also wants us to see that the conventional fantasy universe, where
"one step down the dark path and it will forever dominate your destiny" is a
distortion of reality. There isn't really a progression between the selfish,
cruel, greedy, power-hungry indifference of ordinary evil and the conscienceless
behavior of a psychopath. No matter how many bad choices Crouch Sr. and Peter
Pettigrew make they don't become like Voldemort, forever incapable of remorse.

Tolkien and Lewis revived the heroic fantasy genre because they thought that
the novel was inadequate to deal with the problem of evil in the modern world.
How could individual character flaws account for an entire civilized nation
going bad? So they re-introduced the idea of cosmic evil as a force in human
affairs and this idea has become embedded in the genre. I think it's this idea
that JKR subverts.

Alla:
Ah. Oh. Okay, if you are arguing that JKR subverts fantasy genre in the idea of cosmic evil and actually mean that she is subverting Tolkien and Lewis in that regard, I can see that. The thing is when I am talking about fantasy genre, I am thinking of Tolkien and Lewis as very important part of it, but quite small part of it really. I mean, believe me I am not trying to downplay Tolkien's importance, I dearly love LOTR myself, but fantasy genre's best works really did take it on whole new level IMO and often far more grey one. Because really, I love the world that Tolkien created, but characters there are either good guys or bad guys, are they not, like really good ones or really bad ones. Again, I am not sure how much of fantasy genre you have read, since you are only quoting these two writers, but that's not where a lot of writers stand these days, good writers I mean, the ones who really can write strong plots and characters.

Have you tried Martin's series for example? I mean I doubt the man is ever going to finish them so in a sense I do regret starting them, but characters there are making many many many bad choices and no, they do not become evil in the irrevocable sense lol. Most of the characters are extremely grey and what can look as very evil from one POV may look extremely understanding from another and next time character can easily redeem herself with the good choice she makes.

Anyway, same as Montavilla I am also taking issue with "one step and you are evil" thing; I do not see it even in Tolkien. Surely Boromir (the only character I really love in LOTR heh) did not become evil even though he was tempted?

And of course as I said above if we sample fantasy genre more than just Tolkien and Lewis, we will find what Montavilla said, hero can make plenty bad choices and still redeem himself. So again, I do not see what is so subversive in JKR's work, unless what she really meant when she said that is that she was changing the cosmic evil part in fantasy and that would be indeed different from Tolkien and Lewis, I agree with that. I do not find anything cosmically evil in Voldemort, just a monstrosity who was born from human parents.

Pippin:
The hero of a conventional fantasy must realize that he is on the verge of
becoming totally evil and make a choice that saves him (or, like Frodo Baggins,
find that a past choice has made it possible for him to be saved.)

For years we speculated about how this little drama would play out in the
Potterverse. But, IMO, JKR always intended to show up the convention for what it
was: a fiction that led us to sacrifice truth for clarity.

Alla:

I fully admit that I do not understand how it is happening even in Tolkien, but maybe I am missing a symbolism of that happening in Tolkien, I never took Frodo possible failing in his mission as a sign that he is on the verge of becoming totally evil, but maybe I just did not get it. However let me stress it most emphatically, NO the hero in the fantasy genre does not usually have to realize that he is on the verge of becoming totally evil and make a choice that saves him. Greyness is allowed in the characters in fantasy, you know? It usually makes for really good reading and no, JKR did not discover a wheel here. Bad choices are made and good choices are made and still characters do not have to become evil. Of course there are books I am sure that do just that, I just do not read them. Have you read Robin Hobb's books? Have you read Louis McMaster Bujold books about Miles Vorkosigan? I could be very wrong but I thought that Bujold loves Miles and thinks of him as really decent guy, but he has to make choices which are really grey or lesser of two evils plenty of times throughout the books 

Are you saying that Harry was supposed to be on the verge of evilness, to go to the Dark side or to almost go to the dark side and then realize it? I thought JKR was not writing Star wars as we discussed before. I did not expect (to the best of my recollection certainly I cannot remember all of my old posts) for him to do that necessarily, really. I thought the temptation could be there, but certainly did not see it as the only possibility of how the story will go.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
Harry does want revenge on Amycus. But he didn't use the cruciatus curse 
because he was on the verge of becoming eeevil, he just lost his temper. And
McGonagall is on the verge of panic when she Imperio's the Carrows, as Harry and
Hermione were when they were in Gringotts. <SNIP>

Alla:

Sure I totally agree with you here. My only point of disagreement is that I do not see much subversive or novel in it, unless we are talking about Tolkien and Lewis only.

Pippin:
Carol said that Harry had crossed a line. But Harry crosses lines all the time.
People in canon are always drawing lines and trying to make other people feel
bad about crossing them. But no one is ever sorry because they crossed a line,
only that the consequences aren't what they intended. And that's what's key.

Alla:

I do not understand what you mean, could you clarify? Nobody is ever sorry in canon that they crossed the line or is it how you think things work out in RL? And if they are never sorry in canon, only sorry for wrong consequences, is it a good thing? Key to what?

Pippin:
Voldemort, Umbridge, Crouch Jr, Bella, Fenrir, Lockhart -- the really bad
people in the Potterverse never feel sorry for anything they've done, and no
amount of pain or loss can make them do so.

Alla:

Right, they are not sorry, oh you are saying that they are not sorry for consequences either and good guys are sorry for consequences?

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
As far as Crouch, Sr. goes; I don't think he's ever presented as someone
evil. He's simply a tragic figure who sacrifices his family (through neglect) 
in order to protect his community. According to Sirius (who suffers from
his policies), he went too far. But there's not even the slightest hint that
he's on Voldemort's side. <SNIP>


Alla:

Right I agree, but I thought this was Pippin's point too, that Crouch was not evil despite making bad choices and that this is novel and subversive idea. I could be wrong.

Montavilla47:
Interesting. I thought that Lewis was much more on a human level of good/bad,
though. I suppose the Witch is cosmically evil, but the real battle isn't over
the
world, but the soul of one person at a time.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Oh here I agree with Pippin too, I thought Lewis is on pretty cosmic level of good and evil, since cosmic forces are battling for the soul, even if it is one person at a time. After all, Boromir was also one person when Ring was attacking him, right?

But I fully admit that while I love Tolkien, I am extremely biased against Lewis' books, can barely tolerate them, and think that the message that they carry especially Last Battle is quite evil, so I may not be the best person to talk about them (one person from that other nation can enter the real Narnia, really?) Sorry, for all the talk about JKR portraying the Other, I think Lewis was the one who did it and that makes me annoyed every time I think about that book.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
And even Susan, who is condemned for her distraction with boys and
make-up, isn't lost forever. She's just forgotten what's important. There's
hope that someday she'll come back to an awareness of Narnia. <SNIP>

Alla:

I did not get any hope of that from that pompous speech of our sister Susan no longer friend of Narnia, but that's just my opinion. In fact every time I think about the ending, I think about a girl whose whole family just got killed and went to a better place and she has to stay on earth because she was wearing too much lipstick.

JMO,

Alla






From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 13 05:16:48 2010
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 05:16:48 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 10, The Rogue Bludger
In-Reply-To: <hn8jr5+1r2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hnf740+c2ah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189042

> Pippin:
> It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that looking through a camera would alter the killing effect  while looking through a pair of glasses wouldn't. But magic isn't supposed to make sense to us Muggle types. 

Zara:
While I agree about magic not having to make sense, in this instance it does. Most cameras have a viewfinder you put your eye next to to see the think you are shooting, and it is not directly behind the actual lens of the camera, it is above it. You still see the image that comes in through the lens because there are mirrors internal to the camera that bounce it up to the viewfinder for you to see. I am not sure this explanation is all that clear...here is a diagram I find makes this point clear:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/camera-diagram4.gif

> > 7.  Harry thinks that McGonagall is just as puzzled as he is when Dumbledore said the more important question is how the Chamber is being opened.  Does Dumbledore know at this point that it would require the use of Parseltongue to open it?

Zara:
In Dumbledore's statement I always took his lack of undertsanding of "how" to mean, he knew it was Voldemort, and did not understand how this could be, given Voldemort was in a nearly dead, nonphysical state following the death of Quirrell.





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Mar 13 17:58:51 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Mar 2010 17:58:51 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/14/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1268503131.9.83746.m2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189043

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From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 14:12:04 2010
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:12:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 11, The Duelling Club
Message-ID: <hniqrk+itec@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189044

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

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CoS Chapter Eleven: The Duelling Club

At the start of this chapter, Harry seeks Ron and Hermione out to relate to them all he has learned, and finds them beginning the process of brewing the Polyjuice Potion for their plan to spy on Draco, their suspect in the petrifications. Some time later in furtherance of this plan. Hermione reveals they will need boomslang skin, which they will need to steal from Snape's office. Hermione suggests Harry create a diversion to distract Snape while she sneaks away to steal the ingredient. Harry tosses a firecracker into Goyle's
potion to accomplish this.

A week later, announcements are posted announcing a Duelling Club. This proves a popular activity and many students show up, perhaps hoping for pointers on how to deal with the monster believed to be stalking the school. The instructor proves to be Lockhart, assisted by Snape. In the course of the first meeting of the club, Harry and Draco duel, and Harry is revealed before the school as a Parselmouth when he speaks to a snake Draco conjures. This makes Harry the prime
suspect to be "Heir of Slytherin", as Slytherin was another Parselmouth, it is why the snake is the symbol of his House, suspicions that are only further inflamed when, at the end of the chapter, Harry is the first to discover the petrified body of Muggleborn student Justin Finch-Fletchley and Nearly Headless
Nick.

Discussion Questions:
1. How convincing did you find the evidence presented by the Trio of Draco's possibly being the "Heir of Slytherin"? (Colin was victimized because Draco was angry about losing, Lucius must have opened the Chamber in the past, Draco planned to stay for the holidays, etc.)

2. Goyle's Swelling Solution, when splashed about the class, caused various students to experience swelling. Does Goyle possess hitherto unsuspected talents for Potionmaking?

3. What is your opinion of Snape's handling of the incident Harry caused in his class?

4. Why do you think Draco and "some Slytherins" cheered Snape's success in disarming Lockhart?

5. With the entire series in hand ? why do you think Snape arranged to pair Harry and Draco to practice in the Duelling Club? Has your opinion changed since the first time you read the scene? What do you think Snape whispered in Draco's ear?

6. What did you make of the COS revelations (its association with Slytherin and Dark Wizards) about this talent, before we learned if the soul bit in DH?

7. In this chapter various characters react to this revelation. Harry fears he is a descendant of Slytherin. Ernie and other Hufflepuffs discuss this as Harry eavesdrops. What do you make of these opinions? What does it show us about Wizard society? Is it trying to tell us anything in particular about people/life?

8. The Duelling Club meeting is one of my very favorite scenes in the movies, primarily because I adore the performances of Rickman as Snape and Branagh as Lockhart in this scene and how they bring the characters to life in it just as I had imagined them. Is there any point to Rowling's juxtaposition of these characters in this scene aside from (undeniable) comic effect?

--Zara

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 12, "The Polyjuice Potion", on March 21, 2010.

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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 16:27:43 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:27:43 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 11, The Duelling Club
In-Reply-To: <hniqrk+itec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hnj2pv+nu9r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189045

CoS Chapter Eleven: The Duelling Club
> 
<snip summary>
> 
> 1. How convincing did you find the evidence presented by the Trio of Draco's possibly being the "Heir of Slytherin"? (Colin was victimized because Draco was angry about losing, Lucius must have opened the Chamber in the past, Draco planned to stay for the holidays, etc.)

Carol responds:
Not convincing at all, considering that if staying at Hogwarts for Christmas makes you a suspect, Harry and Ron are also suspects, and Lucius "must have" opened the chamber is not evidence at all but speculation. Moreover, Dumbledore has already said in their hearing, "No second-year could have done this." I can't remember my initial reaction, but now it seems obvious that they're looking for anything they can find, however flimsy, to justify their speculation, which is based solely on Draco's obnoxious reaction to the writing on the wall and his prediction that "Mudbloods" will be next. (If they had guessed that he knew something about the situation, they'd be more justified in their suspicions.)
> 
> 2. Goyle's Swelling Solution, when splashed about the class, caused various students to experience swelling. Does Goyle possess hitherto unsuspected talents for Potionmaking?

Carol:
Possibly, they're working with partners and his partner (possibly Draco) has some talent, or Draco is helping him as Hermione helps Ron. Also, of course, potions for second-years would not be particularly difficult. Snape has an antidote with him (as usual, I think) anticipating accidents. Primarily, of course, JKR is more concerned with her plot than with logic. It would have made more sense for Harry to aim at Draco's cauldron.
> 
> 3. What is your opinion of Snape's handling of the incident Harry caused in his class?

Carol:
I don't blame him at all for being angry considering that it was not only a disruption but dangerous as well. He doesn't carry out his threat to expel the person who threw it even though he suspects Harry (with good reason), nor does he do "something foul" as Harry anticipates.
> 
> 4. Why do you think Draco and "some Slytherins" cheered Snape's success in disarming Lockhart?

Carol:
Why not? He's their Head of House, they have cause to be proud of his dueling skills, and he's making a fool of an inept professor who's a disgrace to his subject. (Snape also demonstrates his DADA skills by simultaneously reversing every hex or jinx that the kids have cast on each other, in contrast to Lockhart's feeble bleating.)
> 
> 5. With the entire series in hand ? why do you think Snape arranged to pair Harry and Draco to practice in the Duelling Club? Has your opinion changed since the first time you read the scene? What do you think Snape whispered in Draco's ear?

Carol:
I think he took advantage of the opportunity to pair them, possibly to test Harry's skill against that of his own best student (knowing that they couldn't really hurt each other). I do think that Snape whispered Serpensortia in Draco's ear, knowing that he, Snape, could easily Vanish the conjured snake if the spell succeeds. At first, he seems satisfied that Harry is no more a Parseltongue than Draco is and calmly tells him to stand aside so that he can Vanish it, but when the snake goes after Justin Finch-Fletchley (which cannot be part of the plan) and Harry starts speaking Parseltongue to it, Snape's expression turns shrewd rather than surprised, suggesting that the incident was planned. Almost certainly, if that's the case, DD (wondering whether the soul bit in the scar gives Harry some of LV's powers) would have suggested that Snape find a way to test Harry and see whether he can speak Parseltongue. (Snape may even have suggested the Dueling Club idea to Lockhart and offered his services as "assistant," which must have required superb acting skills.) 
> 
> 6. What did you make of the COS revelations (its association with Slytherin and Dark Wizards) about this talent, before we learned of the soul bit in DH?

Carol:
Do you mean with regard to Harry or Parselmouths in general? I certainly didn't think that he was a Dark Wizard, and I accepted DD's (later) explanation that he had acquired some of LV's powers through his scar (or rather, as DD should have said, through the cut that became the scar). I didn't think that it was a piece of LV's soul. It was already clear that the scar gave Harry some sort of link with LV even though at that point it was only pain when LV was near. (I expected to see some other powers, a hope that only partially materialized.)
> 
> 7. In this chapter various characters react to this revelation. Harry fears he is a descendant of Slytherin. Ernie and other Hufflepuffs discuss this as Harry eavesdrops. What do you make of these opinions? What does it show us about Wizard society? Is it trying to tell us anything in particular about people/life?

Carol:
Harry's fear is natural since he knows of no other way that he could have acquired an unusual ability associated with Slytherin and Dark magic. The Hufflepuffs' suspicions are also natural since they don't understand Parseltongue and it looked as if Harry was egging on the snake. What HRH don't see is that the Hufflepuffs' suspicions mirror their own suspicions of Draco (and their own suspicion of Snape in the previous book). It's a motif that we'll see throughout the books--appearances can be deceiving whether it's a wrongful suspicion of guilt or "help" received from a secret enemy as with Crouch/Moody in GoF. I don't think it's just Wizarding society; JKR is depicting an all too human trait, especially the willingness to believe the worst about people we dislike. (Look at the success of propaganda throughout the ages, whether it's the Crusades (both sides), the anti-Richard III campaign waged by Henry VII, the Cold War, or North Korea today.)
> 
> 8. The Duelling Club meeting is one of my very favorite scenes in the movies, primarily because I adore the performances of Rickman as Snape and Branagh as Lockhart in this scene and how they bring the characters to life in it just as I had imagined them. Is there any point to Rowling's juxtaposition of these characters in this scene aside from (undeniable) comic effect?

Carol:
Absolutely. She's not only displaying Lockhart's ineptitude and displaying it to great comic effect, she's revealing Snape's DADA skills (showing, in part, that he's actually qualified for the job he seems to want) and showing him in action (IMO) as Dumbledore's man. (Certainly, he reported the incident to DD even if he didn't plan it at DD's instigation; how else could DD know that Harry speaks Parseltongue?) It's interesting to me that Snape takes control at several key points and, unpleasant personality notwithstanding, is calmly competent throughout the scene (in marked contrast to Lockhart), yet not one of the characters seems to notice or remark on it (though the Slytherins notice and cheer his dueling skill). As usual, the narrator reflects Harry's perspective, seeing Snape's actions but drawing no favorable conclusions (though the suspicion that Snape will do "something foul" if he finds out who threw the firecracker perhaps suggests that they already had a high estimate of his magical abilities).

Carol, who enjoyed this chapter because it contains so much Snape




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 14 17:00:15 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 14 Mar 2010 17:00:15 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/14/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1268586015.15.94058.m3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189046

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 15 04:37:04 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 04:37:04 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore & Power / Serpensortia / Crouch Sr / Parselmouth
Message-ID: <hnkdhg+ua9m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189047

Nikkalmati wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189031>:

<< [Dumbledore] also states he could never allow himself to exercise the power of the ministry. >>

While I believe that JKR intended that to be his good behavior, I view it as some combination of cowardice and hypocrisy. When Dumbledore's nation wanted him to become Minister for Magic and the alternative was Cornelius Fudge, he should have accepted and watched himself carefully to see if he was becoming irresponsible. Knowing that he had screwed up with power once means that he needs to be more careful with it next time, not that he should never risk it again. Like falling off a bicycle while learning to ride it doesn't mean one should give up trying to learn to ride a bicycle. Therefore, cowardice.

As for hypocrisy, perhaps Dumbledore was too busy admiring himself for refusing to be Minister that he didn't notice that he had immense power over the kids in his school (power to allow Filch to hang them in chains, power to send them into the Forbidden Forest at night without an adult, power to expel them) and he had life-and-death power over the  members of the Order of the Phoenix. In the case of the kids, he was observed by the teachers, the kids' parents, and supposedly by the Board of Governors. The teachers were willing to say 'Really, Dumbledore, do you think that's wise?' and the Board of Governors might not have needed Lucius Malfoy's threats to fire him if a student was killed because of something he had commanded. But in the Order, no one questioned him at all. That gives more risk of misusing that power than if he were Minister, with tons of people and Rita Skeeter discussing all his doings.

Carol was curious in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189035>:

<< why Catlady thinks that Snape had Draco cast Serpensortia if it wasn't to find out whether Harry was a Parseltongue >>

I suppose I can't say that the author asked him to do it? 

I always thought that Snape had a preconceived and inaccurate notion that Harry was downright phobic of snakes, and that simply seeing a snake approach him would cause him to run away or wet his pants or something else embarrassing, tho' I can't imagine where Snape got that idea.

"Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye with the angry snake. "I'll get rid of it ......

But the quote indicates that Harry really*was* afraid. Quite reasonable of him, given that the snake was in his face and trying to bit.

Carol wrote in <>:

<< I do think that Snape whispered Serpensortia in Draco's ear, knowing that he, Snape, could easily Vanish the conjured snake if the spell succeeds. At first, he seems satisfied that Harry is no more a Parseltongue than Draco is and calmly tells him to stand aside so that he can Vanish it, but when the snake goes after Justin Finch-Fletchley (which cannot be part of the plan) and Harry starts speaking Parseltongue to it, Snape's expression turns shrewd rather than surprised, suggesting that the incident was planned. >>

<< At first, he seems satisfied that Harry is no more a Parseltongue than Draco is and calmly tells him to stand aside so that he can Vanish it >>

So okay, if somehow Snape told Draco how to make sure that the snake would get into Harry's face, then it could have been an attempt to test if Harry was a Parselmouth. But considering that it not for Lockhart's interference, the test would have convinced Snape that Harry was *not* a Parselmouth, it wasn't that good a test, therefore not that good a plan. Severus and Draco should have made sure that the snake spoke to Harry ('Ouch! Being thrown down onto the floor hurt! I'll teach you!").

Montavilla47 wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189038>:

<< Actually, the "moral" of Crouch, Sr. *appears* to be that a warning against extremism in pursuit of the greater good. Right? Doesn't Sirius's story tell us that you can become the enemy by giving up your principles in trying to destroy your enemy? >>

I'm not best pleased with Crouch Sr's LawnOrder policies and his political theatrics in the courtroom, but his problems came about because he was harboring that escaped convict Barty Jr. If it was really his beloved wife's last wish to use her impending death to rescue her beloved son, then it was his act of kindness and family love that did him in, which is ironic in terms of the morality expressed in the Potterverse, where *Death Eaters* are redeemed by family love. 

In any case, as it became more and more difficult to control young Barty under Invisibility Cloak and Imperius Curse, he should have turned him in. That would involve admitting that he had helped Jr escape, which would be a scandal and cost him his job and maybe some time in Azkaban himself. But he wouldn't have to admit that he used Imperius Curse. He could claim he had controlled Barty with full-body bind and confundation, and that Barty was lying when he claimed use of Imperius. I think he could have got off with just a couple of months.

This is a case, as was Pippin's Ever So Evil Lupin (and my fanfic Peter), of a person who committed one crime for what seemed like a good reason at the time, and then committed more and more crimes to cover up the first one.

Elkins posted a nine-part study of Crouch Sr, in which, if I understand correctly, Barty Sr's whole motive was to force Barty Jr to agree with him. That retrieving him from Azkaban was Mr's not Mrs's idea. And Mr never thought of turning that criminal he harbored over to the Law, because it was all a conflict between the two of them.

So I suppose the 'moral' of Crouch Sr is Don't hide escaped convicts in your home unless you really *know* that they are good guys like Sirius.

Zara discussed CoS Chapter 11 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189044>:

<< 6. What did you make of the COS revelations (its association with Slytherin and Dark Wizards) about this talent, before we learned if the soul bit in DH? >>

Like Hermione, I thought that after all this time, probably every pureblood (including Harry's father) was descended from all four Founders and a lot of other old-time famous people. That from whom one is descended may affect one's hair color and one's diseases, but not one's moral character. And that the theory that all Parselmouths are Dark is just a prejudice. "It is our choices, far more than our abilities, that show what we truly are."





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 16 00:26:28 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:26:28 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore & Power / Serpensortia / Crouch Sr / Parselmouth
In-Reply-To: <hnkdhg+ua9m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hnmj7k+b1qs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189048


> Nikkalmati quoted Catlady:
> 
> << [Dumbledore] also states he could never allow himself to exercise the power of the ministry. >>
> 
> Nikkalmati :
> While I believe that JKR intended that to be his good behavior, I view it as some combination of cowardice and hypocrisy. When Dumbledore's nation wanted him to become Minister for Magic and the alternative was Cornelius Fudge, he should have accepted and watched himself carefully to see if he was becoming irresponsible. 

Pippin:
The point is, Dumbledore's experience taught him that he wasn't good at telling whether he was being irresponsible. No one in canon is. The clever people can always come up with ways to convince themselves that they're doing the right thing, or that it isn't important enough to matter.

It's also problematic to say that Fudge was the only alternative. If the people of the WW preferred Fudge to someone like Scrimgeour because Fudge told them what they wanted to hear and Scrimgeour wouldn't, wouldn't they have objected to Dumbledore just as much once they found out what he wanted them  to do to stop Voldemort?

> Nikkalmati 
> As for hypocrisy, perhaps Dumbledore was too busy admiring himself for refusing to be Minister that he didn't notice that he had immense power over the kids in his school (power to allow Filch to hang them in chains, power to send them into the Forbidden Forest at night without an adult, power to expel them) and he had life-and-death power over the  members of the Order of the Phoenix. In the case of the kids, he was observed by the teachers, the kids' parents, and supposedly by the Board of Governors. The teachers were willing to say 'Really, Dumbledore, do you think that's wise?' and the Board of Governors might not have needed Lucius Malfoy's threats to fire him if a student was killed because of something he had commanded. But in the Order, no one questioned him at all.

Pippin:
I think you are exaggerating Dumbledore's power.
No one had to send their children to Hogwarts, but everyone has to obey the MInistry. 
Dumbledore, unlike Fudge, could not send anyone to Azkaban on a word. Nor could the teachers and the students hold off the power of the Ministry, which, as we saw in OOP, could take over the school any time it liked. 


Dumbledore's actions were scrutinized and criticized both by the Ministry and by Rita Skeeter. He got many letters every day objecting to how he ran the school.

Dumbledore is head of the Order only as long as its members are willing to obey him, which they don't always do. Not everyone is as devoted as Harry. Snape stopped giving Harry Occlumency lessons, Sirius ignored Dumbledore's advice and refused to follow orders whenever he felt like it, and Pettigrew was an outright traitor. None of them were punished. 
 

> Nikkalmati : 
> Carol was curious in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189035>:
> 
> << why Catlady thinks that Snape had Draco cast Serpensortia if it wasn't to find out whether Harry was a Parseltongue >>
> 
> I suppose I can't say that the author asked him to do it? 

Pippin:
If Dumbledore just wanted to find out whether Harry was a parselmouth, why conduct the test in front of the whole school? I think he wanted to find out whether *anyone* was a parselmouth. 

Snape's shrewd and calculating look may indicate Snape trying to figure out what Dumbledore is up to, rather than Harry. Did Dumbledore expect this, and is he therefore deliberately trying to throw suspicion on Harry, perhaps to make the real Heir careless, or to divert suspicion from more vulnerable people like Hagrid?

Pippin





From jnoyl at aim.com  Tue Mar 16 15:18:20 2010
From: jnoyl at aim.com (James Lyon)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:18:20 -0700
Subject: Dumbledore & Power / Serpensortia / Crouch Sr / Parselmouth
Message-ID: <5D7A6F94-790B-4C3D-A6C3-DF441CF41B03@aim.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189049

>Pippin
>Snape's shrewd and calculating look may indicate Snape trying to  
figure out what Dumbledore is up to, rather than Harry. Did  
Dumbledore expect this, and is he therefore deliberately trying to  
throw suspicion on Harry, perhaps to make the real Heir careless, or  
to divert suspicion from more vulnerable people like Hagrid?



If anyone looks at canon in any sort of rational way, Bumbles is the  
worst sort of wizard. Whether Bumbles or Snivellus taught  
Serpentsorsia (sp) to Draco, that person endangered the students. If  
Bumbles, then it follows his desire to keep Harry marginalized and as friendless as possible. If Snivellus, there should be some public  
punishment for the man for endangering the students and teaching dark 
magic.

Bumbles brings Dark Lord bait into a school with absolutely minimal  
protection. Bumbles and Snivellus mind rape students, but can't  
detect possessed or polyjuiced teachers?
When the first creature was petrified, any real administrator would  
close the school. There is no indication that Bumbles has any real checks and balances and he surrounds himself with people who worship the mighty GOD Bumbles.

Finally, how did Bumbles keep the WW from finding out what was  
happening at Hoggy every year? The students just decided en-mass to  
not report anything? The parents simply don't care what happens to  
their children? Bumbles Obliviated everyone?

I don't require all plot holes to be filled, just can't see how  
anyone can have any respect for Bumbles, Snivellus, Molly, Arthur, or any member of the OotP who was on "guard" duty at #4.

James



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 16 21:08:02 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:08:02 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore & Power
In-Reply-To: <5D7A6F94-790B-4C3D-A6C3-DF441CF41B03@aim.com>
Message-ID: <hnorvi+fi1e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189050


Pippin:
<SNIP>
Dumbledore's actions were scrutinized and criticized both by the Ministry and by
Rita Skeeter. He got many letters every day objecting to how he ran the school. <SNIP>

Alla:

LOL. IMO Rita is shown as spiteful miserable twit in my opinion who does not really find things which are bad and reports them to the public, but is looking for sensations where there are none and thus makes good people' lives miserable. Having grown up in totalitarian country and seeing how much the "fourth power" did to change the things which were badly in need of change, when no other powers really existed or were just waking up, I actually take a strong exception to the only portrayal of journalist doing her job being a portrayal of "yellow press". So, no I do not think that counts as Dumbledore's actions were being scrutinized, I do not think that anything that Rita interviewed people about really needed scrutiny. And what did it take to actually MAKE her to write something that public needs to hear? Of course Hermione.


James:
<SNIP>
Finally, how did Bumbles keep the WW from finding out what was
happening at Hoggy every year? The students just decided en-mass to
not report anything? The parents simply don't care what happens to
their children? Bumbles Obliviated everyone? <SNIP>


Alla:

One does wonder yes.  I mean I am perfectly willing to accept ( do not like that but accept it) that some WW parents have different standards as to what their kids could and should endure, but NO I am not buying that parents would leave their kids in school where Headmaster does not give a flying hoot (IMO) that in his quest to save one child's soul other kids could end up seriously injured or dead.  Did the bastard ever tell Katie's parents what happened? I seriously doubt it.

But I also think that most WW parents just as slavishly worshipping DD as members of Order of Phoenix. Unfortunately I am drawing a blank, somebody help me, when did parents first start taking their kids out of school due to war? In HBP or in DH? When was Hanna taken out ( or even was she)? 

JMO,

Alla





From sweenlit at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 21:09:13 2010
From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:09:13 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why unforgiveable?
In-Reply-To: <hn4gbp+3ko7@eGroups.com>
References: <4B9144A7.90903@moosewise.com> <hn4gbp+3ko7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <43e41d1e1003171409od781943h5a983fc87c95eab2@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189051

Nikkalmati
I rather like your take on the Unforgivables, but I have always held a
rather diffferent idea. I don't see the Unforgivables as morally
reprehensible in all cases. Most if not all spells require that you really
want them to work. There are plenty of very evil spells out there too (what
about the evicerating spell?). I think these three spells are just ones the
bureauacracy has decided are worthy of Azkaban. Maybe they were considered a
greater threat to society than others. Maybe they were associated with Death
Eaters. In any case, I don't think JKR intended them to be the heighth of
evil - just very severely punished by the Ministry.

Lynda:

I tend to agree with you, Nikkalmati.  I have long believed that personal
choice in the HP books is of paramount importance and although I realize
that Harry should probably not have cast those spells, it certainly did not
render him unavailable for forgiveness, other than by people and
governmental systems with a lack of mercy in their corporate or individual
souls. Venturing on a bit further in this realm, much current Christian
thought is that often what hinders people from being truly forgiven is a
person's lack of ability to forgive oneself.
So in response to Bart, using this line of thought, if Harry were unable
forgive himself for using the unforgivables in the war against Lord Thingy,
than consultational work for the Aurors would have been what he was
comfortable with and I could live with that, but IMHO I don't think Harry
would have had overwhelming guilt issues with what he did and so probably
worked as a full auror. Working as a fully fledged auror also fits Harry's
personality much better than doing consultational work.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 02:19:46 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 02:19:46 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 11, The Duelling Club
In-Reply-To: <hniqrk+itec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ho1bc2+qrub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189052



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ZaraG" <zgirnius at ...> wrote:
<SNIP summary>

1.	How convincing did you find the evidence presented by the Trio of Draco's
possibly being the "Heir of Slytherin"? (Colin was victimized because Draco was
angry about losing, Lucius must have opened the Chamber in the past, Draco
planned to stay for the holidays, etc.)

Alla:

In retrospect I still think that their conclusions were totally understandable and evidence against Draco by totality of circumstances to be quite convincing. I mean, Draco staying for the holidays by itself means nothing, but Colin was victimized because Draco was angry about losing? Eh totally fits the way I see Draco's character. The bottom line for me is that Draco is loud and clear proclaiming his predictions and desires to see muggleborns dead, even if he speaks primarily to Hermione about it. And that's what Slytherin heir's views were and are. No, I do not find their conclusions silly and I think they had even more reasons to be fooled here than with Snape, IMO of course.



3. What is your opinion of Snape's handling of the incident Harry caused in his
class?

Alla:

Shhhh, I think it was all right. No, seriously, I will always cheer for Trio here not just because I love them, but because to me it was a wonderful example of breaking the rules for higher and noble purpose, HOWEVER Snape behaved like a teacher (oh dear did I say that?) in whose class dangerous accident occur and theft of his ingredients. And OMG he even offered a medical assistance to all students indiscriminately, lol. Something must have messed up with his head, me thinks and he acted under the influence of dangerous substance that made him act like real teacher.

4. Why do you think Draco and "some Slytherins" cheered Snape's success in
disarming Lockhart?

Alla:

Shhhhh again, I did too. Lockhart tends to have this effect on me, heh.

5. With the entire series in hand ? why do you think Snape arranged to pair
Harry and Draco to practice in the Duelling Club? Has your opinion changed since
the first time you read the scene? What do you think Snape whispered in Draco's
ear?

Alla:

And of course substance that made him act like real teacher did not stay for too long, lol. I find his handling of the accident to be HORRIFYING, and still do after reading seven books. SO let's imagine that it was a test as Carol suggested on Dumbledore's request. If Snape could so easily vanish the snake, why the heck did not he when snake was about to attack Justin? Would I put it past Dumbledore to pull crap like this, putting another child in danger, while trying to figure something out? No, of course not, after all this is exactly what he did in HBP in my view. However I wonder why Dumbledore would even suspect that Harry could be parselmouth? No, I think it is another accident of Snape wanting to scare and humiliate Harry using Draco as a weapon and getting more than he bargained for.


6. What did you make of the COS revelations (its association with Slytherin and
Dark Wizards) about this talent, before we learned if the soul bit in DH?

Alla:

HA, I remember this well actually, my thought was that since Harry can do it, it can not be completely evil, no matter what everyone else is thinking.

7. In this chapter various characters react to this revelation. Harry fears he
is a descendant of Slytherin. Ernie and other Hufflepuffs discuss this as Harry
eavesdrops. What do you make of these opinions? What does it show us about
Wizard society? Is it trying to tell us anything in particular about
people/life?

Alla:

Yeah, I think it shows us how easily WW society could be influenced by prejudice and gossip, I think this is one of the more brilliant RL parallels actually which was done quite beautifully and not beating me over the head. I mean, all that it took for school to turn on Harry is for him to **speak a different language**, think about it. I mean, that part in a sense hits home with me and painfully so, but I am sure everybody has different associations of this accident.

Thanks for the great questions Zara.







From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Mar 20 17:55:41 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Mar 2010 17:55:41 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/21/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1269107741.499.87242.m13@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189053

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Mar 21 03:06:09 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 03:06:09 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 10, The Rogue Bludger
In-Reply-To: <hn0ptr+q6g9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ho42f1+rjqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189054




> 
> 1.  Harry submits to being Lockhart's supporting player but when the trio get the signature all it takes is Hermione gushing over Lockhart's book, Gadding with Ghouls.  Was it necessary for Harry to have put himself through the play-acting?

Nikkalmati

I think Harry would have a hard time saying "no" to a teacher who wanted him to take part in his little demonstrations.  I don't think he did it for Hermione.

Nikkalmati
> 
> 2.  Moste Potente Potions is a musty book.  Are there other copies of this book around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request this copy very often?  Some of the illustrations are gruesome.  Would this be a book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier times?

Nikkalmati

Probably there are other copies around and Snape's office would be one place to find it.  I think students don't use this book very much at all.  The library is not just for students.  It seems to be a major resource for the teachers and maybe even the Ministry.  The book is probably a classic, but not necessarily so old as to be a relic.  

Nikkalmati

> 
> 3.  Harry, Fred and George all recognize that the rogue Bludger is attacking Harry.  Couldn't anyone else on the field see that?  Or is it that the game matters more than any individual thing going on?

Nikkalmati

The Bludger is meant to attack the players but I wonder why the referee did not see the peculair behavior.  I suspect if the Gryffindor tean did not complain, no one would stop the game.

Nikkalmati

> 
> 4.  The Bludger doesn't attack during the time out but after the game an injured Harry notices Fred and George wrestling the Bludger into a box.  It is still fighting them.  Why did the Bludger not attack during the time out but apparently try to keep going after the game was finished?

Nikkalmati

I guess the Bludgers are not active during the time out.  I would point out that when Wood showed Harry the balls in PS he had to "force[ing] the struggling Bludger back into the crate and strapp[ing] it down safely." U.S. Paperback at 168.   The Bludgers keep attacking, so some provision must be regularly made for time-outs.  Maybe they don't attack anyone on the ground.

Nikkalmati

> 
> 5.  Could Colin Creevey have been coming to visit Harry?  How long was he petrified before Dumbledore found him, do you think?

Nikkalmati

It seems in character for CC to have been trying to visit Harry.  I doubt he was petrified  more than an hour or so.

Nikkalmati

> 
> 6.  A Basilisk's gaze can kill.  When Dumbledore opens Colin's camera, a jet of steam hisses out.  Is this consistent, do you think, with the full effects of a Basilisk's stare?  Does the Basilisk's stare fry a person's insides, leaving a petrified shell?

Nikkalmati

I don't know. Sort of like a microwave?  

Nikkalmati

> 
> 7.  Harry thinks that McGonagall is just as puzzled as he is when Dumbledore said the more important question is how the Chamber is being opened.  Does Dumbledore know at this point that it would require the use of Parceltongue to open it?

Nikkalmati

Yes, I think DD suspects Parseltongue is necessary to open the Chamber and that he intends to test Harry in the next chapter.  He suspects Harry has been given powers by LV and maybe even suspects he is a Horcrux.  He would be better to consentrate on who, because if he discovered it was Ginny, he would be led to the diary and the how would come out too.

Nikkalmati
> 





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Mar 21 03:56:22 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 03:56:22 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore & Power / Serpensortia / Crouch Sr / Parselmouth
In-Reply-To: <5D7A6F94-790B-4C3D-A6C3-DF441CF41B03@aim.com>
Message-ID: <ho45d6+kbtv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189055



>James 
> 
> If anyone looks at canon in any sort of rational way, Bumbles is the  
> worst sort of wizard. Whether Bumbles or Snivellus taught  
> Serpentsorsia (sp) to Draco, that person endangered the students.
Nikkalmati

Isn't this a bit over the top?
Do yu really think that conjuring a snake with two teachers present endangers the students?
Nikkalmati

>James
 If  
> Bumbles, then it follows his desire to keep Harry marginalized and as friendless as possible. If Snivellus, there should be some public  
> punishment for the man for endangering the students and teaching dark 
> magic.

Nikkalmati

Not clear Harry shouldn't be marginalized if he opened the Chamber.  Is it clear teaching Draco to conjure a snake is Dark Magic?  Seems like standard wizard stuff.  Again, it seems the students were not in danger, although JFF was freightened.

Nikkalmati

.James
> 
> Bumbles brings Dark Lord bait into a school with absolutely minimal  
> protection. Bumbles and Snivellus mind rape students, but can't  
> detect possessed or polyjuiced teachers?

snip

.James

Nikkalmati

They thought the Stone was very well protected.  After all, five teachers had set up the protections.  
I assume you are speaking of Legilimacy.  I can't think of any time DD uses it at all.  In fact, we assume he can because he is supposed to be powerful, but he never does.  Snape uses it in the lessons with Harry, but that is consentual (sort of) and mutual (accidentally).  He also uses it when Harry almost kills Draco and lies to Snape about it.  Possibly justified.  I really can't think of any other times, but I may be wrong.

Nikkalmati  
>





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 21 04:40:59 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:40:59 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore & Power / Serpensortia / Crouch Sr / Parselmouth
In-Reply-To: <hnmj7k+b1qs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ho480r+q4eb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189056

Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189048>:

<< The point is, Dumbledore's experience taught him that he wasn't 
good at telling whether he was being irresponsible. No one in canon is. The clever people can always come up with ways to convince themselves that they're doing the right thing, or that it isn't important enough to matter. >>

Dumbledore -- not just Dumbledore, any Minister of Magic -- should appoint at least one trustworthy honest brave intelligent friend to tell him when he's being "irresponsible". 

For Albus, Aberforth would be ideal for that job. 

Fudge also should have had and listened to such a person, someone to tell him that his campaign of slander and libel against Dumbledore and Harry was ungentlemanly. Instead he listened to Lucius Malfoy. 

I suppose Fudgiepoo would have thrown a tantrum and accused his formerly trusted friend of having turned traitor. But perhaps even Fudge would have been a little less distrustful if the warning came from a person of his own choosing... The Minister should give the friend a talisman when giving the job, maybe a letter in his own writing stating that he wants his friend to warn him if seductions of power and being surrounded by sycophants warp his judgment, for the friend to show him when delivering this news. Maybe even Fudge would be brought to remember why he had asked for the warning in the first place... At least there should be a procedure for the Wizengamot to have a vote of no confidence to remove the Minister.

<< It's also problematic to say that Fudge was the only alternative. If the people of the WW preferred Fudge to someone like Scrimgeour because Fudge told them what they wanted to hear and Scrimgeour wouldn't, wouldn't they have objected to Dumbledore just as much once they found out what he wanted them  to do to stop Voldemort? >>

I don't know how they chose Fudge. He said he was only a junior Minister when 'Sirius' blew up that street and killed those Muggles, and we never heard of him being famous as a war hero or athlete, and I would have expected that only senior Ministers and famous people would be in the running.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Mar 21 13:49:36 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:49:36 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 9 The Writing on the Wall
In-Reply-To: <hmhn4h+3l1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ho585g+e1qk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189057


Potioncat here. Life has been busy and this has been my first chance to join in the conversations. Wow, there have been some good answers. Rather than trying to respond to each, I'm just going to go through some of the questions myself.

> This chapter is packed full of important information, so I hope you'll read it yourself, but here are the headlines:

Potioncat: 
See, you don't have to write a really good summary. You can just do bullets. So if it's the summary that's keeping you back from taking on a chapter, don't let it. (I'm not a list-elf, I just like to pretend to be.)

> 
> 2. What is Snape up to with his "Wrong place at the wrong time" speech? AND > 11. I have to confess, I had a really good question for this chapter that turned out to be based on movie contamination. I had such a bad case; I had to read the chapter several times before I accepted the event wasn't canon. All these years I thought it was an important moment in the Harry/Snape dynamic.

Potioncat:
I was convinced Snape had used Legilimency at this point and knew something was up. But as I read this section, nothing indicates, hints at, or provides a clue that Snape did any such thing.  So I'm still not completely sure what prompted his speech. Although knowing that they had not been at the feast, and knowing what kind of trouble they do tend to find maybe Snape just wanted to make sure they didn't get away with something. Yet, again
I'm surprised the teachers don't seem more upset at this moment. There's writing in blood, a petrified cat and a threat. Why do they seem so calm? 

> 4. Why didn't JKR introduce Squibs in SS/PS?

Potioncat:
It sort of bothered me that Neville wouldn't have used the word Squib at the first meeting. It's a word he would know. But I think the suggestions that JKR didn't want to add too much vocabulary is a valid one. And I could make an argument that Neville may not have been comfortable with the word himself. But this did make it sound like he was part Muggle.


> 
> 5. How does the explanation of Salazar's reasons for excluding Muggle-born students compare to contemporary wizards' reasons? (Malfoy, Black, etc.)

Potioncat: 
The answers to this question made me realize I had compared apples to oranges. I was comparing the attitude toward Muggle-born wizards to the attitude toward Muggles. Not quite the same thing.

> 
> 6. Are you surprised that Harry expected students to think he was Slytherin's heir at this time?

Potioncat:
I was, as I read it anew. At this point, Harry doesn't know about the Heir of Slytherin. Granted, Filch was accusing Harry and maybe the kids think Filch would know. Later in the book we'll hear a really good set of reasons to think Harry is. But at this point, all Harry has done is to be one of the first people at the scene.

> 
> 9. At one time this book was going to be The Half Blood Prince. Who knows what the plot would have been, but do you see any sections in this chapter that seem to foreshadow or parallel HBP?

Potioncat:
The diary and Snape's text seem to be a parallel to me. I know the diary was a plant, but both are old misplaced books with powerful information. Granted, Snape's is not enchanted. There's the introduction?sort of ?of a Horcrux. And there's this ending,

"Hard to see why we'd want the book, really," said Ron, "if we weren't going to try and make one of the potions."
"I think," said Hermione, "that if we made it sound as though we were just interested in the theory, we might stand a chance
"
"Oh, come on, no teacher's going to fall for that," said Ron. "They'd have to be really thick
"

Doesn't that sound like Tommy and Slughorn?


> 
> 10. What do you think of Binns' comment, "Just because a wizard doesn't use Dark Magic doesn't mean he can't"? Is this brought up in any of the other 6 books?

Potioncat:
I agree with others, it was brought up by McGonagall in SS/PS and it does seem to continue thought the series.

Potioncat:
And a new question--Pippin offered that the Heir had to be someone who wasn't at the feast, which rules out Draco. What about Ginny?  Did she miss the feast?







From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 21 16:59:09 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 21 Mar 2010 16:59:09 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/21/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1269190749.484.58380.m12@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189058

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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 21:21:43 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:21:43 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 9 The Writing on the Wall
In-Reply-To: <ho585g+e1qk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ho62l7+j93p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189059

Potioncat wrote:
> And a new question--Pippin offered that the Heir had to be someone who wasn't at the feast, which rules out Draco. What about Ginny?  Did she miss the feast?
>
Carol responds:
I don't remember Pippin's comment (sorry), but Dumbledore, at least, knew perfectly well who the Heir of Slytherin was (Tom Riddle, aka Voldemort), which is why he said that it was not a question of who but how. But you're right that the person who wrote on the wall and (theoretically) Petrified the cat would have to be someone who was absent from the banquet. I don't know whether Ginny's absence was indicated or not--probably not because the narrator is seeing from Harry's point of view and Harry didn't know (or, at the moment, care) where Ginny was. I don't think that DD or Snape would have noticed, either, since their focus was on Harry.

BTW, I agree with whoever made the comment that the teachers were remarkably calm given the potential danger to the students--unless the teachers (other than DD and Snape, both of whom would know the importance of remaining calm) thought that it was all a student prank (an older student who knew about the Chamber of Secrets having previously been opened and sufficient knowledge of magic to do a very strong and long-lasting Petrificus Totalus?). 

A new thought just occurred to me. Might DD and Snape, both of whom knew that LV was a powerful Legilimens, already be considering the possibility that LV was controlling Harry in that way? That, or the idea that he might be possessed, would explain the urgent need to determine whether he was a Parselmouth. (DD would keep the additional possibility that the scar was a Horcrux out of the discussion.) But given the fact that Harry was at the scene of the crime, they may really have thought that he did it--not on his own or deliberately but as LV's puppet (a possibility that is disproved when Colin Creevey is found and Harry is confined to the hospital wing).

Carol, who has to rush off and doesn't have time to think these ideas through




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 02:13:36 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:13:36 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion Chamber of Secrets Ch. 9 The Writing on the Wall
In-Reply-To: <ho62l7+j93p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ho6jog+s1hq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189060



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Potioncat wrote:
> > And a new question--Pippin offered that the Heir had to be someone who wasn't at the feast, which rules out Draco. What about Ginny?  Did she miss the feast?
> >
> Carol responds:
> I don't remember Pippin's comment (sorry), but Dumbledore, at least, knew perfectly well who the Heir of Slytherin was (Tom Riddle, aka Voldemort), which is why he said that it was not a question of who but how. But you're right that the person who wrote on the wall and (theoretically) Petrified the cat would have to be someone who was absent from the banquet. I don't know whether Ginny's absence was indicated or not--probably not because the narrator is seeing from Harry's point of view and Harry didn't know (or, at the moment, care) where Ginny was. I don't think that DD or Snape would have noticed, either, since their focus was on Harry.
> 
> BTW, I agree with whoever made the comment that the teachers were remarkably calm given the potential danger to the students--unless the teachers (other than DD and Snape, both of whom would know the importance of remaining calm) thought that it was all a student prank (an older student who knew about the Chamber of Secrets having previously been opened and sufficient knowledge of magic to do a very strong and long-lasting Petrificus Totalus?). 
> 
> A new thought just occurred to me. Might DD and Snape, both of whom knew that LV was a powerful Legilimens, already be considering the possibility that LV was controlling Harry in that way? That, or the idea that he might be possessed, would explain the urgent need to determine whether he was a Parselmouth. (DD would keep the additional possibility that the scar was a Horcrux out of the discussion.) But given the fact that Harry was at the scene of the crime, they may really have thought that he did it--not on his own or deliberately but as LV's puppet (a possibility that is disproved when Colin Creevey is found and Harry is confined to the hospital wing).
> 
> Carol, 

Nikkalmati

I think the teachers are calm because the immediate danger is past and they want to keep the students (and Filch) calm.  DD must supect that whoever controlls the monster is following LV's direction, hence the question "how?"  Why isn't he interested in "who?" or does he think LV himself is really present?  I agree he fears Harry is mixed up in it and tried to find out if Harry is a Parselmouth.  Then does that mean he know the monster is a Basilisk?   

Nikkalmati 
>





From jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com  Thu Mar 25 03:44:19 2010
From: jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com (jeanine)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 03:44:19 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 12, The Polyjuice Potion
Message-ID: <hoem6j+9os3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189061

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

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CoS Chapter Twelve: The Polyjuice Potion

Harry remains unpopular with other Hogwarts students because of his knowledge of
Parseltongue and the implications that he is the heir of Slytherin. He seeks
reassurance of his "Gryffindor-ness" from the Sorting Hat, which to his horror
again tells him that he would have done well in Slytherin. Harry encounters
Fawkes just in time to see him die and be reborn. Dumbledore remarks in passing
that phoenix tears have healing powers. Dumbledore gives Harry the chance to
confide in him but Harry, although he thinks of the Polyjuice Potion being made,
and the voices he hears, claims there is nothing to tell.

Christmas finds the trio HRH staying over at Hogwarts along with Malfoy, Crabbe
and Goyle. Hermione announces that the Polyjuice Potion is ready and instructs
Harry and Ron to get some hair from Crabbe and Goyle. She also produces the two
drugged cakes to put Crabbe and Goyle out of action while they are impersonated
by Harry and Ron, and she has obtained for them larger sized robes.

HRH imbibe the Polyjuice potion. Without explaining why, Hermione does not
reveal herself to Harry and Ron and declines to accompany them to the Slytherin
common room. The two boys, attempting to find the common room, are intercepted
on the way by Percy Weasley who does not recognize them. They are spotted by
Malfoy who accepts them as Crabbe and Goyle and takes them into the Slytherin
common room. He shows them a newspaper article from which Ron learns that his
father has been fined 50 Galleons for bewitching the car. Harry learns from
Malfoy of the existence of the wizard prison Azkaban. Harry  also learns from Malfoy that he does not know who the Heir of Slytherin is

While still with Malfoy, Harry and Ron realise that the Polyjuice Potion is
beginning to wear off and so they rush out of the Slytherin common room. On
their return to the girls' bathroom, Harry and Ron find that Hermione has turned
into a copy of Millicent Bullstrode's cat. Hermione tells them that the
Polyjuice Potion is not intended fro use with animals. Harry tells her she
should go to the hospital wing. He says that Madam Pomfrey never asks too many
questions.



Questions



Did you think the reference to the healing powers of phoenix tears would
subsequently prove important?

Why does Harry not confide in Dumbledore?

Do you think that Harry believes he knows better than anyone else?

Would Harry have got anywhere in his attempt to hoodwink Malfoy without
Hermione's help, knowledge and hard work?

What reason did you come up with as to why, after all her efforts with the
polyjuice potion, with producing the drugged cakes and obtaining the larger
robes Harry and Ron would need when reincarnated as Crabbe and Goyle, Hermione
apparently decided not to go with the boys?

Why do you think Hogwarts students of any one house are apparently not allowed
to know the password to the other houses' common rooms?

If Harry and Ron could see that the polyjuice potion was wearing off, why could
not Malfoy see it too?

How likely did you think it was that Madam Pomfrey would not ask "too many
questions" when a student turns up having been transformed into an animal? Would
she not at least have approached Minerva McGonagall who was the expert in
transformation? The only other way we're told of, to transform someone, is
Polyjuice Potion. This involves restricted ingredients. Wouldn't it be Madam
Pomfrey's duty to follow this up?
NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
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Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 13, "The Very Secret Diary", on March 28, 2010.

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Jeanine




From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 04:54:52 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui ronquillo)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 12, The Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <hoem6j+9os3@eGroups.com>
References: <hoem6j+9os3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <812229.18845.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189062




Did you think the reference to the healing powers of phoenix tears would
subsequently prove important?
luirhys: Rowling is very good at dropping seemingly unimportant clues that takes us by surprise by the end of the book. The reference of the properties of phoenix tears would prove important in time when Harry takes a stand against Riddle. Was it not mentioned here and only referenced by Dumbledore after Harry saves Ginny, all of us would go- "that's not true!!" instead of us going, "Aha! I think I've read that before." With us then trying to find that bit of foreshadowing.

Why does Harry not confide in Dumbledore?
luirhys: I think you can find this kind of behavior in most teenagers. They do not trust adults that readily yet want to be considered one themselves. Harry himself does not want Dumbledore to think of him like the others do- meaning, deranged or crazy, or probably the heir of slytherin.

Do you think that Harry believes he knows better than anyone else?
luirhys: Harry has been known to want to work by himself (if only to save the people he loves from harm). This does not mean he thinks he is above them though. As the series progresses, we see him generally warming up to the idea of having people there stand by him. 

Would Harry have got anywhere in his attempt to hoodwink Malfoy without
Hermione's help, knowledge and hard work?
luirhys: Probably not. Even if Snape did mention the Polyjuice potion in class, he or Ron would never have made the connection of using it to spy on Malfoy. Not to mention that they wouldn't have succeeded brewing it without Hermione's help.

What reason did you come up with as to why, after all her efforts with the
polyjuice potion, with producing the drugged cakes and obtaining the larger
robes Harry and Ron would need when reincarnated as Crabbe and Goyle, Hermione
apparently decided not to go with the boys?

luirhys: Before her telling the truth, I thought it was some insecurity with her turning into Bulstrode.


Why do you think Hogwarts students of any one house are apparently not allowed
to know the password to the other houses' common rooms?
luirhys: I would thinks it's all to do with privacy and camaraderie. Your house is seen as your family while you are at school, so it would also seem given that you would respect the secrets it holds. 

If Harry and Ron could see that the polyjuice potion was wearing off, why could
not Malfoy see it too?
luirhys: Since he did not know about Harry and Ron being polyjuiced as his 'goons' it would be fair to say that he was not looking for any outward and obvious sign that they are anybody else. He might've bought the excuse that they weren't feeling well.

How likely did you think it was that Madam Pomfrey would not ask "too many
questions" when a student turns up having been transformed into an animal? Would
she not at least have approached Minerva McGonagall who was the expert in
transformation? The only other way we're told of, to transform someone, is
Polyjuice Potion. This involves restricted ingredients. Wouldn't it be Madam
Pomfrey's duty to follow this up?
luirhys: I believe Hermione, being as clever as she is, would've thought of a different excuse to tell her. Probably something to do with someone cursing her or a hex gone wrong. After all, we see Dudley in the first book with a pig's tail. As we know, it was failed hex. 

Hermione could've just refused to say who her attacker was and tell Madam Pomfrey it was someone jealous of her or something. Which could explain why Madam Pomfrey was concerned about her and took to closing her curtains.

Even if Madam Pomfrey would have been a tad suspicious about this,  her expertise is in healing so she wouldn't have automatically thought of polyjuice potion. And she wouldn't have connected her ailment with this.

_ 

 


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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 25 16:50:53 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:50:53 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 12, The Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <hoem6j+9os3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hog49d+klt6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189063

<snip summary>
1. Did you think the reference to the healing powers of phoenix tears would subsequently prove important?

Carol responds:
Probably, since I tend to watch for foreshadowing. I really don't remember my first reading.

2. Why does Harry not confide in Dumbledore?

Carol:
It's possible that Harry feels slightly guilty or fears that Dumbledore won't approve of his breaking school rules and taking largish risks to discover information that isn't really any of his own business (the implication being that kids can handle the detective work better than the adults--which does happen to be true, but that's JKR for you). But the narrator, IIRC, compares Harry's hesitation to that of Tom Riddle in the diary memory, so maybe the soul bit is influencing him to distrust Dumbledore. (Of course, Harry's reluctance to confide in anyone, sometimes even including Ron and Hermione, is a personality trait that works nicely as a motif or plot device--if only Harry had confided such and such, matters would have turned out differently (but then again, the plot would have been ruined).
> 
3. Do you think that Harry believes he knows better than anyone else?

Carol:
Sorry. I don't understand the question.
> 
4. Would Harry have got anywhere in his attempt to hoodwink Malfoy without Hermione's help, knowledge and hard work?

Carol:
Clearly not. Harry doesn't pay attention in Potions and would not have known about Polyjuice Potion, let alone where to find the recipe and ingredients. He wouldn't even have known about Moaning Myrtle's bathroom (or whatever it's called in the British edition) without Hermione.
> 
5. What reason did you come up with as to why, after all her efforts with the polyjuice potion, with producing the drugged cakes and obtaining the larger robes Harry and Ron would need when reincarnated as Crabbe and Goyle, Hermione apparently decided not to go with the boys?

Carol:
I guess I just thought that she didn't want to be seen looking like Millicent Bulstrode. I certainly didn't anticipate that she'd grown a cat's fur and a tail.
> 
6. Why do you think Hogwarts students of any one house are apparently not allowed to know the password to the other houses' common rooms?

Carol:
I don't think it's a matter of not being allowed. Theoretically, a student could probably invite a student from another House into his or her common room, which would involve saying the password (or, in the case of the Ravenclaws, answering a riddle). If that happened, though, the password (for the Houses that have one) would probably change immediately afterward for security reasons--i.e., the other student might be untrustworthy, just as boys in general are assumed to be untrustworthy when it comes to entering the girls' dormitory. Slytherins probably wouldn't invite students from other Houses into their common room on principle--never trust anyone who's not one of us. (I don't really understand how the Slytherin password works since there's no equivalent of the Fat Lady. How would the prefects find it out if there's no portrait?)
 
7. If Harry and Ron could see that the polyjuice potion was wearing off, why could not Malfoy see it too?

Carol:
Harry and Ron were probably on the alert, knowing that they were in danger of discovery. Draco, however, had no reason to suspect that anything was wrong.
> 
8. How likely did you think it was that Madam Pomfrey would not ask "too many questions" when a student turns up having been transformed into an animal? Would she not at least have approached Minerva McGonagall who was the expert in transformation? The only other way we're told of, to transform someone, is Polyjuice Potion. This involves restricted ingredients. Wouldn't it be Madam Pomfrey's duty to follow this up?

Carol responds:
But Polyjuice Potion isn't (normally) used to transform into animals, and students who could transform themselves into animals (e.g., Padfoot, Prongs, and Wormtail in an earlier generation) would not have informed her or needed her help. Also, Polyjuice Potion is not dangerous and (normally) wears off after about an hour. As for Madam Pomfrey not asking questions, I suspect that it's true. The students are always using magic against each other, and she would not expect them to tell tales on each other. The only exception would probably be if she encountered Dark magic that she couldn't counteract, in which case, she would inform Dumbledore. It would probably be up to him to conduct an investigation (and he would probably send in Snape to heal or stabilize the patient, as he did with Katy Bell).

Carol, who has taken the liberty of numbering the questions




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 05:28:56 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 05:28:56 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 12, The Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <hoem6j+9os3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hohgmo+67cu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189064

>> Why does Harry not confide in Dumbledore?

Joey: Well, we all have our private secrets, don't we? According to Harry, him having Slytherin traits is a very horrific discovery for him which he didn't share with Ron and Hermione also.

>> Why do you think Hogwarts students of any one house are apparently not allowed to know the password to the other houses' common rooms?

Joey: I think the secrecy dates back to the days of the founders themselves. I think they set it up that way as they wanted people who think like them should have their privacy.

>> How likely did you think it was that Madam Pomfrey would not ask "too many questions" when a student turns up having been transformed into an animal? Would she not at least have approached Minerva McGonagall who was the expert in transformation? The only other way we're told of, to transform someone, is Polyjuice Potion. This involves restricted ingredients. Wouldn't it be Madam Pomfrey's duty to follow this up?

Joey: I think she is *so very* attached to her job that the moment she sees someone in trouble she sets her mind on heailng them rather than finding out how they got into that problem in the first place. But yes, it is odd that she does not discuss her observations / suspicions with the Heads of the Houses at least. Maybe she must. :-)

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 15:31:57 2010
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:31:57 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 12, The Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <hoem6j+9os3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hoik1d+m8ep@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189065

Questions
 
1. Did you think the reference to the healing powers of phoenix tears would subsequently prove important?

Janelle:
Since this is only the second book, probably not.  I don't really remember, but I'm guessing that I hadn't quite realized how important those little details could be!
 
2. Why does Harry not confide in Dumbledore?

Janelle:
He doesn't trust him yet.  At this point Dumbledore is still this elusive, powerful headmaster who Harry has had very little contact with and is still slightly in awe of.  He doesn't yet know that Dumbledore is on his side.

3. Do you think that Harry believes he knows better than anyone else?

Janelle: I'm not sure if you're asking about in this particular chapter or just in general, but I would say no, he doesn't necessarily think he knows better than *anyone* else, just some people!

4. Would Harry have got anywhere in his attempt to hoodwink Malfoy without Hermione's help, knowledge and hard work?
 
Janelle: Probably not.  As someone else pointed out he almost definitely would not have come up with the polyjuice potion plan.  I'm sure he would've come up with something but I don't have a lot of confidence that it would have worked.  Look at how his attempt at spying on Draco at the beginning of HBP worked, and that was several years later...

5. What reason did you come up with as to why, after all her efforts with the polyjuice potion, with producing the drugged cakes and obtaining the larger robes Harry and Ron would need when reincarnated as Crabbe and Goyle, Hermione apparently decided not to go with the boys?
 
Janelle: I don't remember my initial thoughts, but I'm guessing that I just assumed something had gone wrong with the potion.  In hindsight, it's probably better that she didn't go.  I'm not so sure Draco would've been so quick to open up with Millicent around, even if she is in Slytherin.  It's possible that he might've bragged (like he did at the wall) in such a way as to convince the trio that he *was* Slytherin's heir.

6. Why do you think Hogwarts students of any one house are apparently not allowed to know the password to the other houses' common rooms?
 
Janelle: Probably for security reasons.  If I were Harry or Ron I know I wouldn't want Draco and the other Slytherins to have access to my room!  And at times like this book, with the heir on the loose, it's better to be able to control who has access to what parts of the castle.

7. If Harry and Ron could see that the polyjuice potion was wearing off, why could not Malfoy see it too?
 
Janelle: Like others have said, he wasn't aware that anything odd was going on so he wasn't looking for his friends' features to change.  Adding to that, he was going on about his father and the heir of Slytherin, probably not paying much attention to his friends anyway (other than as admirers of himself).

8. How likely did you think it was that Madam Pomfrey would not ask "too many questions" when a student turns up having been transformed into an animal? Would she not at least have approached Minerva McGonagall who was the expert in transformation? The only other way we're told of, to transform someone, is Polyjuice Potion. This involves restricted ingredients. Wouldn't it be Madam Pomfrey's duty to follow this up?

Janelle: I think it's pretty realistic for her not to go running to Dumbledore every time a student comes in with an unusual injury.  In a school full of young witches and wizards I'm sure they're practicing and trying new things all the time (either for class or experimenting on their own).  It's possible for students to get seriously hurt and they need to be able to go to Madam Pomfrey for the help they need without fearing getting in trouble.  There would probably be much worse results from these accidents if the kids didn't trust Madam Pomfrey.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 15:41:03 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:41:03 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 12, The Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <hoem6j+9os3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hoikif+evqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189066

 
> Why does Harry not confide in Dumbledore?

Annemehr:
Partly because he is not ready for that.  He is still processing the events in his own mind and doesn't want to cede control of that to DD.  Also, he (or Hermione) has not yet connected the "voices in his head" to Parseltongue so he's still afraid they might mean he is crazy.

The other reason, of course, is to protect his friends since they are involved in brewing an illicit potion for which Hermione stole some supplies.

> 
> Do you think that Harry believes he knows better than anyone else?

Annemehr:
Better?  He at least thinks the potion is worth trying and doesn't want it stopped.  And that was Hermione's idea, not Harry's.

> 
> What reason did you come up with as to why, after all her efforts with the
> polyjuice potion, with producing the drugged cakes and obtaining the larger
> robes Harry and Ron would need when reincarnated as Crabbe and Goyle, Hermione
> apparently decided not to go with the boys?

Annemehr:
Well, it was obvious that something had gone wrong with her transformation.  I remember, I figured we'd find out what soon enough, and just wanted to read on to see what happened next.






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Mar 27 17:57:59 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 27 Mar 2010 17:57:59 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/28/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1269712679.486.1287.m10@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189067

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 28 03:36:00 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 03:36:00 -0000
Subject: Chapdisc Cos 12
Message-ID: <homir0+ga2c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189068

Jeanine discussed CoS Chapter 12 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189061>:

<< [Hermione] also produces the two drugged cakes to put Crabbe and Goyle out of action >>

This is a prime example that Hermione would be a very good Slytherin: she will use any means to achieve her ends, and she makes effective schemes. I like this reply because all my other replies were already posted by some other listie before me.

<< Why does Harry not confide in Dumbledore? >>

Life with the Dursleys has given him an excessively strong inability to trust any person. I wonder if Dumbledore recognizes his own secretiveness in Harry?

<< Would Harry have got anywhere in his attempt to hoodwink Malfoy without Hermione's help, knowledge and hard work? >>

Well, he certainly wouldn't have had (or even known of) Polyjuice Potion without her. It's just possible he could have come up with some other scheme, probably something that involved challenging Draco to a dare.

<< Why do you think Hogwarts students of any one house are apparently not allowed to know the password to the other houses' common rooms? >>

What would be the point of having a password if there was no one from whom it was secret? I've encountered fanfics in which students sneak into another House's common room to vandalize it and strew their own House color about. Somewhat like the traditions of UCLA students to paint the Tommy Trojan statue blue and of USC students to paint the grizzly bear statue red.

<< How likely did you think it was that Madam Pomfrey would not ask "too many questions" when a student turns up having been transformed into an animal? >>

I'm inclined to believe it. Part of a Hogwarts education is breaking the rules and using magic on one's own, sometimes experimentally, sometimes to curse a student from another House (only curses that can be cured). The authorities would want the students to seek professional repairs when they break themselves, therefore not fear that the medi-witch would rat on them.

<< Would she not at least have approached Minerva McGonagall who was the expert in transformation? The only other way we're told of, to transform someone, is Polyjuice Potion. >>

Presumably she would have sought Minerva's help if she couldn't fix the problem on  her own.

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189063>:

<< (Of course, Harry's reluctance to confide in anyone, sometimes even including Ron and Hermione, is a personality trait that works nicely as a motif or plot device--if only Harry had confided such and such, matters would have turned out differently (but then again, the plot would have been ruined). >>

In this case, Dumbledore got all the information by Legilimency, so it doesn't make any difference that Harry didn't confide in him. I imagine he also got all the information he needed from Riddle's mind, altho' perhaps Riddle was already a great Occlumens and blocked him.

<< Theoretically, a student could probably invite a student from another House into his or her common room, which would involve saying the password (or, in the case of the Ravenclaws, answering a riddle). >>

I feel sure that letting a student from a different House into one's House's common room is against the rule (and so is entering a different House's common room), but then again, Hogwarts rules (all wizarding rules!) are for breaking.

<< who could transform themselves into animals (e.g., Padfoot, Prongs, and Wormtail in an earlier generation) would not have informed her or needed her help. >>

Maybe even the Marauders needed her help, with things that went wrong while they were still learning Animagic. In some previous scene, we went along a corridor past a Transfiguration classroom where some student 'had turned his friend into a badger'. Professor McGonagall fixed it then, but if it happened while the students were practising (studying), probably they would go to Madam Pomfrey.





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 28 16:59:19 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 28 Mar 2010 16:59:19 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 3/28/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1269795559.18.82007.m1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189069

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From elfundeb at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 12:34:56 2010
From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb2)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:34:56 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chamber of Secrets Ch. 13:  The Very Secret Diary
Message-ID: <hoq6pg+umvs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189070

This message is a Special Notice for all members of
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CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Chapter 13: The Very Secret Diary.
 
The chapter opens after the Christmas holiday, with Hermione in the hospital wing.  Harry and Ron visit her nightly. She keeps a get-well card from Lockhart under her pillow.  Afterward, Harry and Ron discover a flood of water outside Moaning Myrtle's bathroom.  Inside, Myrtle is sobbing because someone hit her with a book.  Despite Ron's warning that the book might be dangerous, Harry picks it up.  The book is a 50-year-old diary, blank except for the name "T.M. Riddle."  Ron recalls that he had polished a 50-year-old trophy awarded to Riddle for special services to Hogwarts.  Harry pockets the diary.
 
Hermione, upon leaving the hospital wing, attempts unsuccessfully to make the diary reveal its secrets, although Ron thinks it is a waste of time. Harry finds himself drawn to the diary, often flipping through its empty pages with the unexplainable sense that T.M. Riddle is familiar to him.
 
For Valentine's Day, Professor Lockhart enlists dwarves to dress up as Cupids and deliver valentines.  Lockhart himself has received 46 valentines.  A dwarf delivers a singing rhyme to Harry in the hallway, grabbing his bag, which splits in two, spilling ink all over.  
 
Later, Harry notices that unlike his other things, the diary was unaffected by the ink spill.  Harry tries writing in the dairy.  The ink disappears, but to his surprise, Riddle responds.  Diary-Riddle explains to Harry that he caught the person who opened the Chamber of Secrets, and offers to show Harry the memory.
 
The memory begins in Headmaster Dippet's office.  Dippet tells Riddle he cannot stay at Hogwarts over the summer because of the danger of attacks.  Riddle leaves and after encountering Professor Dumbledore, who gives Riddle a penetrating stare, Riddle goes to the potions dungeon. He finds Hagrid trying to entice an interestin' creature into a box and accuses the creature of opening the Chamber.  Riddle executes a spell and the creature, now revealed to be a young Aragog, escapes.
 
Harry leaves the memory just as Ron enters the dormitory and Harry tells him that it was Hagrid that opened the Chamber.
 
 
1.  Ron is very attuned to Hermione's crush on Lockhart.  Is he merely disgusted with her infatuation, or is this one of JKR's "anvil-sized hints?  Did you pick up on this the first time you read CoS?
 
2.  What do you think is the source of Lockhart's appeal to women and girls?  Is it his looks and charm, or is there magic involved?  Do you think he's capable of one of Flitwick's Entrancement Enchantments?
 
3.  Ron's initial reaction that the diary was dangerous proves correct, and he also correctly guessed that Riddle murdered Moaning Myrtle.  Ron's apparent knack for this led to a longstanding theory that Ron was a Seer.  What do these comments tell us about Ron?
 
4.  What did you think of Riddle after reading this chapter?  
 
5.  Do you think Riddle's memory is part and parcel of his soul bit, or is it a separate enchantment, like the curses on some of the other horcruxes?  Why did he incorporate this feature into a horcrux and not simply create a separate memorial?  And (really going off on a tangent here) does the Sorting Hat employ the same kind of magic?
 
6.  There are obvious parallels between the memory Riddle showed Harry and the ones Dumbledore shows Harry in HBP; in fact, JKR once considered revealing much of Riddle's history in CoS.  How do you think she intended to handle the information, and what do you think of how Riddle's story was handled here?

7.  Why does Harry believe that Hagrid opened the Chamber?
 
8.  The introduction of Tom Riddle in this chapter adds a dark and chilling element to the storyline, yet the chapter is also very funny, with visions of surly dwarfs carrying harps, Moaning Myrtle as a carnival contest, and Ginny's pickled-toad valentine.  What do you think of JKR's juxtaposition of humor and seriousness here?
 
9.  Please add any questions you may have. 
 
NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
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From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 15:43:54 2010
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (poohmeg20)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:43:54 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chamber of Secrets Ch. 13:  The Very Secret Diary
In-Reply-To: <hoq6pg+umvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hoqhrq+h1ch@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189071

<snip of the very nice summary>  

> 1.  Ron is very attuned to Hermione's crush on Lockhart.  Is he merely disgusted with her infatuation, or is this one of JKR's "anvil-sized hints?  Did you pick up on this the first time you read CoS?
> 

Megan:
I definitely took that as an "anvil-sized hint" the first time I read it - I was always slightly annoyed by all the time spent on the budding relationships in the series, but I thought by the standard romantic comedy formula it was pretty clear from the get-go that Ron and Hermione were going to end up together.
 
> 2.  What do you think is the source of Lockhart's appeal to women and girls?  Is it his looks and charm, or is there magic involved?  Do you think he's capable of one of Flitwick's Entrancement Enchantments?
>  

Megan:
The Lockharts of the world will always hold some mysterious appeal for a certain segment of the female population - women are perfectly capable of being every bit as shallow as men when presented with a pretty face with nothing behind it. However, I'm sure Lockhart would never want to have someone point that out, so he probably did have a few charms in his repertoire to at least temporarily enchant those not impressed on their own. I think it would be more like the kind of thing available at Zonko's than something Flitwick would teach. 


> 3.  Ron's initial reaction that the diary was dangerous proves correct, and he also correctly guessed that Riddle murdered Moaning Myrtle.  Ron's apparent knack for this led to a longstanding theory that Ron was a Seer.  What do these comments tell us about Ron?
> 

Megan:
Ron might not be as book-smart as Hermione, but he grew up in the wizarding world and had lots of exposure to the ministry through his dad, so even though he had never seen anything quite like that situation before, I'm sure he knew enough to be suspicious. Ron actually is pretty good throughout the series at assessing the safety of objects and situations - or at least making somewhat informed guesses.
 
> 4.  What did you think of Riddle after reading this chapter?  
>  

Megan:
He seemed kind of shady to me - I certainly didn't figure out on my own this quickly that he was Voldemort, but the whole diary situation seemed creepy. 

> 5.  Do you think Riddle's memory is part and parcel of his soul bit, or is it a separate enchantment, like the curses on some of the other horcruxes?  Why did he incorporate this feature into a horcrux and not simply create a separate memorial?  And (really going off on a tangent here) does the Sorting Hat employ the same kind of magic?
>  

Megan:
Good question! I think (I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong!) that the diary was one of the first few horcruxes created - so Riddle was probably still kind of experimenting at that point to see how much he could pack into it. If it is the same kind of magic as the sorting hat, maybe that's where he got the idea. 

> 6.  There are obvious parallels between the memory Riddle showed Harry and the ones Dumbledore shows Harry in HBP; in fact, JKR once considered revealing much of Riddle's history in CoS.  How do you think she intended to handle the information, and what do you think of how Riddle's story was handled here?
> 

Megan:
I can see where it might have worked to get into Dumbledore's memories at this point looking back now over the whole series - but from a practical perspective, the average reader isn't as invested in the series yet by book 2 as they will be by book 6. So I think it would have put some people off the series if there had been more background and time away from the core story in CoS. By the time HBP came out, anyone who was still reading was obviously interested enough for that information (and more, since we're still talking about it now!) Leaving off some of the background at this point also left more room to take the story in different directions in the intervening books without readers being tempted to do constant continuity checks (even more than they did anyway!)

> 7.  Why does Harry believe that Hagrid opened the Chamber?
>  
Megan:
He's working from a limited set of facts and assumptions at this point - he knows Hagrid is hiding something, and that's the main thing on Harry's mind that someone would want to hide. So from his perspective, it's a pretty logical conclusion. 

> 8.  The introduction of Tom Riddle in this chapter adds a dark and chilling element to the storyline, yet the chapter is also very funny, with visions of surly dwarfs carrying harps, Moaning Myrtle as a carnival contest, and Ginny's pickled-toad valentine.  What do you think of JKR's juxtaposition of humor and seriousness here?
>  

Megan:
To me, that's what is so great about the whole series - just like real life, there is a constant back-and-forth between the serious and the ridiculous. It's part of the whole theme of choices - the characters (and readers) can choose how seriously they want to take themselves or a situation.

> 9.  Please add any questions you may have. 
>  

Megan:
These were great questions - thanks for doing them! 

The only question I have is why Hogwarts still had Tom Riddle's trophy? Did they just never get rid of anything in the trophy room?




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 17:57:31 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:57:31 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chamber of Secrets Ch. 13:  The Very Secret Diary
In-Reply-To: <hoq6pg+umvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hoqpmb+4ltj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189072

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 13: The Very Secret Diary.
<snip excellent summary>  
>  
> 1.  Ron is very attuned to Hermione's crush on Lockhart.  Is he merely disgusted with her infatuation, or is this one of JKR's "anvil-sized hints?  Did you pick up on this the first time you read CoS?

Carol responds:
I don't think that I thought of it in terms of Ron having a crush on Hermione, only of his being a little more aware of other people's feelings than Harry, who perceives other people's danger (the "saving people complex") but is generally oblivious to feelings and emotions (other than general assumptions related to Houses or Quidditch).
>  
> 2.  What do you think is the source of Lockhart's appeal to women and girls?  Is it his looks and charm, or is there magic involved?  Do you think he's capable of one of Flitwick's Entrancement Enchantments?

Carol:
Not magic, I'm sure, since the only bit of magic he's ever mastered is the memory charm. (We see his general ineptitude in his own subject demonstrated twice, with regard to the pixies and in the dueling club chapter and his pathetic attempt at healing when he removes the bones from Harry's arm.) I think it's a combination of his looks and his fame. (Even Molly Weasley likes to look at his photos.) We see something similar, minus the good looks, with the girls who chase Krum in GoF and the Quidditch fans who acquit Ludo Bagman based on who he is rather than what he may or may not have done. Celebrity worship (and the fickleness of the public, which will turn on its heroes based on rumors and bad publicity) is a persistent motif in the HP books, as is Harry's indifference or even aversion to his own celebrity status.

> 3.  Ron's initial reaction that the diary was dangerous proves correct, and he also correctly guessed that Riddle murdered Moaning Myrtle.  Ron's apparent knack for this led to a longstanding theory that Ron was a Seer.  What do these comments tell us about Ron?

Carol:
His father works for the Ministry, specifically with regard to enchanted Muggle objects, so Ron would be more aware than Harry (or the naive and lonely eleven-year-old Ginny) that such objects can be dangerous. I don't remember his guessing that Riddle killed Moaning Myrtle, so I can't comment on that.
>  
> 4.  What did you think of Riddle after reading this chapter? 

Carol:
At first I thought that he really was a school hero, but I didn't like the way he treated Hagrid. I also thought it was odd that he received an award for services to the school when the creature got away. I didn't suspect, however, that he was the murderer. (Maybe I faven't read enough mystery novels!) 
>  
> 5.  Do you think Riddle's memory is part and parcel of his soul bit, or is it a separate enchantment, like the curses on some of the other horcruxes?  Why did he incorporate this feature into a horcrux and not simply create a separate memorial?  And (really going off on a tangent here) does the Sorting Hat employ the same kind of magic?

Carol:
I think that he specifically created the diary to prove that he was the Heir of Slytherin and that it contained other memories that he didn't choose to show Harry, including, probably, his controlling the Basilisk and killing Moaning Myrtle. He certainly created it with the intention of using it to carry on Salazar Slytherin's great work, as he tells Harry (and presumably also told Lucius Malfoy), who knew quite well that it could be used to open the Chamber of Secrets. The fact that the ink disappears and Riddle writes back to Ginny as well as Harry indicates that it's intended to be interactive. I think that the diary was already special to Tom Riddle, as Dumbledore states in HBP, before he turned it into his first Horcrux. In fact, it might not even have been a Horcrux yet when he talked to Slughorn. I think he wanted to know whether it was possible to make more than one Horcrux before he dared to risk a piece of his soul in an object designed for some other use. (Of course, I'm not sure that JKR's ideas regarding the diary are clear and consistent, so I'm presenting the explanation that makes most sense to me.)

As for the Sorting Hat, which obviously is not a four-person Horcrux, yes, I think it employs the same sort of magic as the diary originally did, memories that can interact with or at least converse with other people (we see the same thing in the portraits). With the Sorting Hat, there's even an element of Legilimency (which we don't see with the portraits--I'm not sure about the pre-Horcrux diary). Possibly he created it before he knew about Horcruxes or before he knew how to make one. He may even have started putting memories in it before he had killed Moaning Myrtle and only gradually realized that it could also be used as a Horcrux if he used the Basilisk to kill someone (an unworthy Muggleborn, naturally).
>  
> 6.  There are obvious parallels between the memory Riddle showed Harry and the ones Dumbledore shows Harry in HBP; in fact, JKR once considered revealing much of Riddle's history in CoS.  How do you think she intended to handle the information, and what do you think of how Riddle's story was handled here?

Carol:
Did JKR consider revealing Riddle's history in CoS? I thought it was Snape's history (as revealed in his old Potions book) that she considered revealing (and thought better of). Besides, why have two devices through which Harry can enter old memories, the Pensieve and the diary, in the same book? As for the glimpse of Riddle's history that we get here, I think it's intriguing and well timed. We get to see that Voldemort was once a person in some ways very like Harry (but clearly evil from a young age) and that his transformation into a monster was somehow the product of his own will. We also see how he charmed and fooled a lot of people.
> 
> 7.  Why does Harry believe that Hagrid opened the Chamber?

Carol:
Because he sees the monster Aragog, which certainly looks (and is) capable of killing people and he knows from firsthand experience that Hagrid underestimates the danger of the "interestin' creatures" he loves so much. (Harry and his friends have already had a close call with Fluffy.) He also has no reason to distrust Riddle, who won an award for services to the school and seems so much like himself (but handsomer).
>  
> 8.  The introduction of Tom Riddle in this chapter adds a dark and chilling element to the storyline, yet the chapter is also very funny, with visions of surly dwarfs carrying harps, Moaning Myrtle as a carnival contest, and Ginny's pickled-toad valentine.  What do you think of JKR's juxtaposition of humor and seriousness here?

Carol:
I must be dense, but I don't know what you mean by "Moaning Myrtle as a carnival contest." However, as I know I've said before, combining comedy with tragedy or near-tragedy is a time-honored technique going back at least to Shakespeare (who was criticized by purists for doing so). Much of what people find funny borders on catastrophe (slipping on banana peels is a crude example) and is only funny because the tragic consequences are averted. "Romeo and Juliet" could have been a romantic comedy with only a few changes. Mercutio's speech would be funny if only he were pretending to die rather than actually dying. But also, the comic and the tragic exist side by side in real life and laughter provides a kind of escape or respite from the thought of danger. The students, for example, can hardly go around constantly fearing the monster's next attack. Even Ginny, who suspects that she's somehow responsible for the bloody words on the wall and the Petrified students, is still capable of writing an unintentionally comic verse about her green-eyed hero (and JKR takes a break from the hero worship of her own protagonist to poke a bit of fun at him).
>  
> 9.  Please add any questions you may have. 

Carol:

I'm just curious as to whether anyone besides me wondered how Tom proved to the headmaster and the Ministry that Hagrid had a monster. After all, the monster in question escaped. (I understand why they would have assumed that the monster was responsible for Myrtle's death--two monsters in the castle at the same time would have been inconceivable for anyone except Dumbledore, who obviously couldn't prove Hagrid's innocence and Riddle's guilt or he would have done so.) But was it only Tom's word against Hagrid's or did Hagrid admit to having a monster and just blurt out, "Aragog wouldn't hurt nobody?"

Carol, thanking Deb for the excellent summary and questions




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 18:38:56 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:38:56 -0000
Subject: Chapdisc Cos 12
In-Reply-To: <homir0+ga2c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hoqs40+8gjn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189073

Catlady wrote:
> Presumably she would have sought Minerva's help if she couldn't fix the problem on  her own.

Carol responds:
Didn't we read in OoP that Healers need the same set of NEWTs as Aurors, including all five core subjects (Potions, Herbology, Transfiguration, Charms, and DADA)? Although Madam P. seems to rely on the teachers of those subjects to some degree (Professor Sprout grows the mandrakes and Snape prepares the potion, for example), she would have to be highly competent in those subjects herself to (for example) know which potions she needed or to cause teeth to shrink or antlers to disappear (no questions asked most of the time). The only times she's not competent to deal with the patient herself involve Dark magic (in which case, she requires the services of Professor Snape).
> 
> Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189063>:
> 
> << (Of course, Harry's reluctance to confide in anyone, sometimes even including Ron and Hermione, is a personality trait that works nicely as a motif or plot device--if only Harry had confided such and such, matters would have turned out differently (but then again, the plot would have been ruined). >>
> 
> In this case, Dumbledore got all the information by Legilimency, so it doesn't make any difference that Harry didn't confide in him. I imagine he also got all the information he needed from Riddle's mind, altho' perhaps Riddle was already a great Occlumens and blocked him.

Carol responds:
I'm not so sure that DD used Occlumency on Harry though he often gives Harry the sense that he's being X-rayed and certainly subjects both Harry and Tom Riddle to a searching glance (which could as easily be a means of detecting through facial expressions and other signs whether a student is lying). Harry doesn't feel the thing he's thinking about rising up before DD's eyes as he does when Snape forces him to think of the Potions book, nor is his mind invaded as poor Gregorovitch's is by Voldemort in DH (and Snape's probably is when he uses his sophisticated and undetectable Occlumency against the invasion). I don't think that either Legilimency or Occlumency is involved in the incident with younger DD and Teen!Riddle, either. All that's necessary is mutual understanding. DD knows what Tom is capable of, knows that he's behind all the other mysterious happenings at the school, and Tom knows that DD suspects him. Diary!Riddle says as much to Harry. What's important, IMO, is the secrecy motif--Harry has the chance to confide in DD and doesn't. The same thing happens with Lupin in PoA--both Harry and Lupin are concealing information from each other (and DD). How much simpler it would all be if everyone knew who could be trusted and told the full truth--to those people only, of course.

I snipped the part on WPP accidentally slipping up when they were becoming Animagi and going to Madam Pomfrey, but I suppose you're right. She'd probably assume that they were attempting magic that was too advanced for them and accidentally gave "poor little Peter Pettigrew" a rat's paws. Of she'd treat the incident as she did the spells that gave Quidditch rivals antlers in (I think) OoP--or Hermione's cat transformation in CoS. And yet, I can't imagine James or Sirius going to her for help. They'd be too arrogant on the one hand and too afraid of being caught on the other. 

At any rate, I suspect that Madam Pomfrey wouldn't ask questions unless she was faced with magic she couldn't undo (such as Hermione's hex on Marietta of Dark magic), but I also suspect that the Marauders knew that they'd gone well beyond breaking school rules in becoming Animagi and probably would not have sought her help.

Carol, deciding that it won't do to think too deeply about details that JKR herself probably didn't consider




From alcuin74 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 18:18:52 2010
From: alcuin74 at yahoo.com (alcuin74 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:18:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chamber of Secrets Ch. 13:  The Very Secret Diary
Message-ID: <452196.29414.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189074

1. Ron is very attuned to Hermione's crush on Lockhart. Is he merely disgusted with her infatuation, or is this one of JKR's "anvil-sized hints? Did you pick up on this the first time you read CoS?

Reply:
In hindsight, JKR obviously meant it as a hint of what was to come, but I didn't pick up on the Ron+Hermione romance until GoF. At this point I was still hoping that it would be Harry+Hermione


2. What do you think is the source of Lockhart's appeal to women and girls? Is it his looks and charm, or is there magic involved? Do you think he's capable of one of Flitwick's Entrancement Enchantments?

Reply:
I'm not sure that there's any magic involved. I think it's simply JKR's commentary on our culture's obsession with physical attractiveness, that even otherwise intelligent women (like Mrs. Weasley) and girls (like Hermione) can end up going ga-ga over a pretty face with nothing behind it.


3. Ron's initial reaction that the diary was dangerous proves correct, and he also correctly guessed that Riddle murdered Moaning Myrtle. Ron's apparent knack for this led to a longstanding theory that Ron was a Seer. What do these comments tell us about Ron?

Reply:
But this ignores the fact that Ron got things wrong at least as many times as he got things right. To name just a few: he was wrong about thinking Harry should have gone after the Elder Wand in DH, he incorrectly dismissed Harry's concerns about Draco Malfoy's doings in HBP, he unjustly accused Harry of entering the Triwizard Tournament on purpose in GoF, he was completely wrong about both Scabbers and Crookshanks, etc. I'm not saying Ron was a fool (unlike the movies make him out to be), he's just not exceptionally gifted at making good calls.


4. What did you think of Riddle after reading this chapter? 

Reply:
I saw the movie before reading the book, but while watching the movie I was intrigued by his character at this point. I didn't think at first that he was someone sinister.


5. Do you think Riddle's memory is part and parcel of his soul bit, or is it a separate enchantment, like the curses on some of the other horcruxes? Why did he incorporate this feature into a horcrux and not simply create a separate memorial? And (really going off on a tangent here) does the Sorting Hat employ the same kind of magic?

Reply:
This is really impossible to answer before JKR gives us her theory about what the "soul" is. I've always found her talk about "splitting" souls to be unintelligible. But be that as it may, my guess is that she sees the soul as somehow the "essence" of the person, and so since one's experiences to a large extent shape one's personality, then one's memories of those experiences must be somehow embedded within one's "soul". Thus, since the diary houses a "piece" of Tom Riddle's soul from when he was 16, then it will necessarily contain his memories from that time as well.


6. There are obvious parallels between the memory Riddle showed Harry and the ones Dumbledore shows Harry in HBP; in fact, JKR once considered revealing much of Riddle's history in CoS. How do you think she intended to handle the information, and what do you think of how Riddle's story was handled here?

Since CoS was still at the level of a children's book, introducing more of Tom Riddle's background at this point probably would have been too much. Besides, it wouldn't have advanced the story, whereas in HBP, when the confrontation with Voldemort is now in full swing, it makes more sense as a way of trying to discover his character and weaknesses.


7. Why does Harry believe that Hagrid opened the Chamber?

Reply:
Hagrid never answered Harry's question from PS as to why Hagrid was expelled, so Harry had every reason to think that Hagrid was hiding something. That, together with Hagrid's love of monsters, makes Harry's suspicions perfectly understandable. 


8. The introduction of Tom Riddle in this chapter adds a dark and chilling element to the storyline, yet the chapter is also very funny, with visions of surly dwarfs carrying harps, Moaning Myrtle as a carnival contest, and Ginny's pickled-toad valentine. What do you think of JKR's juxtaposition of humor and seriousness here?

Reply:
It's characteristic of her writing style. In my opinion, she was much better at it in the earlier books than in the later ones.

"alcuin74"



      



From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Mar 29 19:59:03 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:59:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapdisc Cos 12
In-Reply-To: <hoqs40+8gjn@eGroups.com>
References: <hoqs40+8gjn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4BB10687.8060706@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189075

justcarol67 wrote:
> I'm not so sure that DD used Occlumency on Harry though he often gives Harry the sense that he's being X-rayed and certainly subjects both Harry and Tom Riddle to a searching glance (which could as easily be a means of detecting through facial expressions and other signs whether a student is lying). 

    Probably, like all skills and talents, there are varying levels of 
ability in Occlumancy, Prof. Dumbledore probably has some degree of 
Occlumancy ability, but not up to the level of Morty or Sevvy.

    Bart




From ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Mar 29 21:13:20 2010
From: ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk (Ffred Clegg)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:13:20 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chamber of Secrets Ch. 13:  The Very Secret Diary
In-Reply-To: <hoq6pg+umvs@eGroups.com>
References: <hoq6pg+umvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <762693.56192.qm@web24712.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189076

----- Original Message ----
From: elfundeb2 <elfundeb at gmail.com>
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Ch. 13: The Very Secret Diary

>9.? Please add any questions you may have. 

On reading CoS, I can remember noticing the difference between Albus Dumbledore in the now, despite the fact that he is clearly much older than one would expect a headmaster to be, he is on the ball and vigorous. The picture of Armando Dippet is the first time that we see a wizard who is clearly very old indeed, to the point of losing his edge. Did anyone else draw this contrast and wonder just how long Dippet had been Head? A century or more? 

cheers

Ffred


      




From nikasmomma2001 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 29 22:02:43 2010
From: nikasmomma2001 at yahoo.com (Nicole)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 22:02:43 -0000
Subject: Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
Message-ID: <hor823+tqpo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189077

I'm wondering about everyone's opinion of why Harry is attracted to Ginny. I've only read the Deathly Hallow's so far (yes, that's backwards), but she seems kind of bland in comparison to other female characters.  What am I missing?
---Nicole




From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 04:56:25 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:56:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <hor823+tqpo@eGroups.com>
References: <hor823+tqpo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <786477.43724.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189078



 Nicole: 
I'm wondering about everyone's opinion of why Harry 
is attracted to Ginny. I've only read the Deathly 
Hallows so far (yes, that's backwards), but she seems 
kind of bland in comparison to other female characters.  
What am I missing?


luirhys:
You should probably read the other books before passing 
your judgement on her. She was introduced very early in 
the first books and gained somewhat more "air time" as 
the series progressed- we get to see more of her in action 
by OotP








From alcuin74 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 13:44:12 2010
From: alcuin74 at yahoo.com (alcuin74 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 06:44:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
Message-ID: <17266.91321.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189079

Nicole wrote:
I'm wondering about everyone's opinion of why Harry is attracted to Ginny. I've only read the Deathly Hallow's so far (yes, that's backwards), but she seems kind of bland in comparison to other female characters. What am I missing?

alcuin74:
Many of us who've read the whole series multiple times can't figure it out either. For my part, the only romance in the books that has any chemistry to it is Mr. and Mrs. Weasleys'. All the rest fall totally flat or are downright obnoxious.


      



From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 05:55:27 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 22:55:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapdisc Cos 12/ Dumbledore and Legilimency
In-Reply-To: <4BB10687.8060706@moosewise.com>
References: <hoqs40+8gjn@eGroups.com> <4BB10687.8060706@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <980220.35629.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189080


  
justcarol67 wrote:
> I'm not so sure that DD used Occlumency on Harry though he often gives Harry the sense that he's being X-rayed and certainly subjects both Harry and Tom Riddle to a searching glance (which could as easily be a means of detecting through facial expressions and other signs whether a student is lying). 

Bart:
Probably, like all skills and talents, there are varying levels of 
ability in Occlumancy, Prof. Dumbledore probably has some degree of 
Occlumancy ability, but not up to the level of Morty or Sevvy.

luirhys: you must be confusing occlumency with legilimency. 

        "Legilimency is the magical skill of extracting feelings and memories from another person's mind-

       The counter-skill to Legilimency is Occlumency (and its user, known as an Occlumens),
by which one can                         compartmentalise one's emotions, or prevent a
Legilimens from discovering thoughts or memories which contradict         one's
spoken words or actions."I'm pretty sure that DD and Snape employ both abilities on a regular basis. Being very powerful wizards, they could easily do this without the recipient knowing. It was even said in that Dumbledore didn't need a cloak to become invisible, and has a disillusionment charm so strong that he could become invisible. 

This makes it plain that their abilities must be so advanced that their "victims" do not suspect anything. 

In the case of Harry and Riddle, DD might have read their minds but decided not to say anything. We all know he stresses on 'individual choice.'

 
_ 


      Yahoo! Mail Now Faster and Cleaner. Experience it today at http://ph.mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jelly92784 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 15:59:21 2010
From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 15:59:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION:  Chamber of Secrets Ch. 13:  The Very Secret Diary
In-Reply-To: <hoq6pg+umvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hot74p+re13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189081


1.  Ron is very attuned to Hermione's crush on Lockhart.  Is he merely disgusted with her infatuation, or is this one of JKR's "anvil-sized hints?  Did you pick up on this the first time you read CoS?

Janelle: I think there are two levels to what's going on here.  I think this could be considered one of Jo's "anvil-sized hints," but at the same time, I'm sure that Ron isn't secretly harboring feelings for Hermione at this point.  I think he's disgusted by it in general, and maybe a little bit more so because it's Hermione, but not because he has feelings for her himself- or maybe he's just not aware of the feelings that he has for her...  

2.  What do you think is the source of Lockhart's appeal to women and girls?  Is it his looks and charm, or is there magic involved?  Do you think he's capable of one of Flitwick's Entrancement Enchantments?
  
Janelle: Standard handsome-celebrity stuff.  A couple of people have mentioned the attraction of otherwise smart women/girls to a pretty face "with nothing behind it," but I want to point out that at this point everyone still believed that Lockhart had written all those books about his own experiences.  If he had actually done all of those things he might actually have been someone worthy of admiring and drooling over!  I don't think he uses any extra magic to charm witches.

3.  Ron's initial reaction that the diary was dangerous proves correct, and he also correctly guessed that Riddle murdered Moaning Myrtle.  Ron's apparent knack for this led to a longstanding theory that Ron was a Seer.  What do these comments tell us about Ron?
  
Janelle: I agree with what others have said about Ron having more knowledge about the types of things that can be cursed due to his life in the wizarding world and at home with his father, and so knowing when to be suspicious of things.  I also still tend to gravitate towards the "Ron as Seer" theory.  I don't believe that he is an all-out seer, or even whatever type of seer Trelawney is, I just think he has a knack for predicting things accurately (while not taking those predictions at all seriously himself- it usually is when he's making jokes that he gets things right).  I still think Ron has a touch of seer about him, even if it isn't a significant part of who he is or how his life turns out.

4.  What did you think of Riddle after reading this chapter?  
  
Janelle: I don't really remember my initial thoughts, but I think that I, like Harry, trusted him, even if I wasn't totally convinced that Hagrid was the bad guy.

5.  Do you think Riddle's memory is part and parcel of his soul bit, or is it a separate enchantment, like the curses on some of the other horcruxes?  Why did he incorporate this feature into a horcrux and not simply create a separate memorial?  And (really going off on a tangent here) does the Sorting Hat employ the same kind of magic?
  
Janelle: Good question!  I think that the memories in the diary are separate from the Horcrux, however, I think that the memories would have stayed within the pages of the diary without that soul bit.  Maybe Riddle originally put the memories there to prove that he was the Heir of Slytherin and he had the power to open the Chamber, and then decided to take it a step further once he started experimenting with horcruxes.

6.  There are obvious parallels between the memory Riddle showed Harry and the ones Dumbledore shows Harry in HBP; in fact, JKR once considered revealing much of Riddle's history in CoS.  How do you think she intended to handle the information, and what do you think of how Riddle's story was handled here?

Janelle: I find myself wondering whether Jo originally planned to reveal Voldemort's versions of some of those memories rather than Dumbledore's?  Could other memories have been stored in that diary as well?  Interesting how the Penseive shows up a couple books later with practically the same method of revealing memories...  All I know for sure is that, if Jo had chosen to reveal much more of Voldemort's back story here, it would've made for a very different journey to the end.
 

7.  Why does Harry believe that Hagrid opened the Chamber?
 
Janelle: I think he believed it because of what he saw- the monster and Hagrid hiding in the dungeons.  I don't think he would have believed it based solely on Riddle's word.  I think he doesn't find it too difficult to believe that one of Hagrid's "pets" could've gotten out of his control.

8.  The introduction of Tom Riddle in this chapter adds a dark and chilling element to the storyline, yet the chapter is also very funny, with visions of surly dwarfs carrying harps, Moaning Myrtle as a carnival contest, and Ginny's pickled-toad valentine.  What do you think of JKR's juxtaposition of humor and seriousness here?

Janelle: Like with the Writing on the Wall chapter, she diverts our attention from the serious stuff by throwing in a lot of comedy.  I think it's great! 

9.  (Paraphrasing someone's question): Why is Tom Riddle's award still kept in the trophy room?

Janelle: I think it could be customary just to keep everything in there, or perhaps Voldemort cursed it so that it could never be removed!  Personally, I was half-expecting that award shield to be the Hogwarts-hidden horcrux.




From nikasmomma2001 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 07:38:20 2010
From: nikasmomma2001 at yahoo.com (Nicole)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:38:20 -0000
Subject: Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <786477.43724.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hos9pc+6gjl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189082



> luirhys:
> You should probably read the other books before passing
> your judgement on her. She was introduced very early in
> the first books and gained somewhat more "air time" as
> the series progressed- we get to see more of her in
> action by OotP


Thanks! I was wondering if JK did more with her in the
other books.

---Nicole



From technomad at intergate.com  Tue Mar 30 18:09:16 2010
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:09:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <17266.91321.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <17266.91321.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100330130916.y0i1gml2io4cswoo@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189083

Quoting "alcuin74 at yahoo.com" <alcuin74 at yahoo.com>:

> Nicole wrote:
> I'm wondering about everyone's opinion of why Harry is attracted to   
> Ginny. I've only read the Deathly Hallow's so far (yes, that's   
> backwards), but she seems kind of bland in comparison to other   
> female characters. What am I missing?
>
> alcuin74:
> Many of us who've read the whole series multiple times can't figure   
> it out either. For my part, the only romance in the books that has   
> any chemistry to it is Mr. and Mrs. Weasleys'. All the rest fall   
> totally flat or are downright obnoxious.

By about Book 6 one thing that Harry and Ginny share in common that  
nobody else in the whole world shares (at least as far as we know) is  
the experience of having been possessed by Voldemort.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From senatorabner at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 18:39:03 2010
From: senatorabner at yahoo.com (senatorabner)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:39:03 -0000
Subject: Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <20100330130916.y0i1gml2io4cswoo@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <hotgg7+6q24@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189084


> > Nicole wrote:
> > I'm wondering about everyone's opinion of why Harry is
> > attracted to Ginny. I've only read the Deathly Hallows
> > so far (yes, that's backwards), but she seems kind of
> > bland in comparison to other female characters. What am
> > I missing?
>
> alcuin74:
> Many of us who've read the whole series multiple times
> can't figure it out either. For my part, the only romance
> in the books that has any chemistry to it is Mr. and Mrs.
> Weasleys'. All the rest fall totally flat or are downright
> obnoxious.


Lee:
My read on Ginny is that, as she matured, she showed herself
to be an uber-Weasley. She possessed the spunk and humor and
bravery of the twins, a bit of Molly's motherly-impatience,
and Bill's composure.

Plus, I can totally see the allure of wanting to be part of
such a family. Especially for someone like Harry, who grew up
without a real home.

Ginny was a talented witch, a great Quiddich player, and
seemed to have a strong sense of self.

I sometimes think that JKR deliberately kept any 'heat' out
of the relationships, except with Ron and Lavender--which was
presented as sloppy and comic.

Plus, who can explain love? It's so personal for each of us :)
I always totally bought that Harry would choose Ginny, and
Now here's a question:
I am new to this group, and this may have been asked before,
but did Harry and Ginny 'go all the way?' There are a few
lines in HBP that refer to 'special walks by the lake'
[paraphrasing here). I've often wondered about that....

Thanks!
Lee







From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 30 19:50:10 2010
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:50:10 -0000
Subject: Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <hotgg7+6q24@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hotkli+d4ie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189085

> > > Nicole wrote:
> > > I'm wondering about everyone's opinion of why Harry is
> > > attracted to Ginny. I've only read the Deathly Hallows
> > > so far (yes, that's backwards), but she seems kind of
> > > bland in comparison to other female characters. What am
> > > I missing?

Magpie:
If you read OotP and HBP, that will encapsulate what's supposed to be attractive about Ginny. You'll see her sort of being exactly right or standing out in many scenes.

> Lee:
> Now here's a question:
> I am new to this group, and this may have been asked before,
> but did Harry and Ginny 'go all the way?' There are a few
> lines in HBP that refer to 'special walks by the lake'
> [paraphrasing here). I've often wondered about that....

Magpie:
I think they were pretty clearly actually walking by the lake and maybe kissing. Not having sex in the grass by the lake.

-m




From jnoyl at aim.com  Tue Mar 30 19:28:16 2010
From: jnoyl at aim.com (James Lyon)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:28:16 -0700
Subject: Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
Message-ID: <A34B5775-54B2-4DAC-AC84-92A76198BCC3@aim.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189086

Ginny is a second tier character that, even in the midst of the H/G  
"love" affair still had little air time.
Then, she has certain Molly tendencies that would have me running for  
the hills.
Then, when Harry broke up with her, she said she expected it because  
Harry would never be happy unless he was fighting Moldie. Of course,  
Harry would be happy to be just Harry and have a normal life, but  
Ginny just sees her HERO.

James



From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Mar 30 22:01:06 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:01:06 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapdisc Cos 12/ Dumbledore and Legilimency
In-Reply-To: <980220.35629.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <hoqs40+8gjn@eGroups.com> <4BB10687.8060706@moosewise.com> <980220.35629.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BB274A2.4030101@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189087

lui wrote:
> Bart:
> Probably, like all skills and talents, there are varying levels of 
> ability in Occlumancy, Prof. Dumbledore probably has some degree of 
> Occlumancy ability, but not up to the level of Morty or Sevvy.
>
> luirhys: you must be confusing occlumency with legilimency. 
>   

Bart:
You are right; Carol used the term, and I just followed without thinking.

    Bart




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 30 23:46:07 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:46:07 -0000
Subject: Chapdisc Cos 12
In-Reply-To: <4BB10687.8060706@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hou2fv+fmng@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189088

justcarol67 wrote:
> > I'm not so sure that DD used Occlumency on Harry though he often gives Harry the sense that he's being X-rayed and certainly subjects both Harry and Tom Riddle to a searching glance (which could as easily be a means of detecting through facial expressions and other signs whether a student is lying). 
> 
>     Probably, like all skills and talents, there are varying levels of 
> ability in Occlumancy, Prof. Dumbledore probably has some degree of 
> Occlumancy ability, but not up to the level of Morty or Sevvy.
> 
>     Bart
>
Carol responds:

Oops. I meant Legilimency, of course. I suspect that you did, too. As for DD's abilities as a Legilimens, I'm sure that he wouldn't enter a mind as LV does, but he must have quite a degree of skill in obtaining memories from people, including unwilling people like Morfin (and possibly Hokey), which is surely a form of Legilimency.

At any rate, I think that LV's claim of being the greatest Legilimens in the world is proven by his invasion of Gregorovitch's mind, and Sevvy's ability to block him without his knowing it undoubtedly makes him the greatest Occlumens in the world (whereas his Legilimency, though good, is not on the same level). I suspect that DD ranks behind Severus in Occlumency but ahead of him in Legilimency. In fact, he probably taught Severus both skills. (I can't see LV, who trusts no one, teaching him either skill. The other alternative would be that he was self-taught.)

Carol, with apologies for using the wrong term and causing confusion




From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 00:37:39 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <A34B5775-54B2-4DAC-AC84-92A76198BCC3@aim.com>
References: <A34B5775-54B2-4DAC-AC84-92A76198BCC3@aim.com>
Message-ID: <323037.18979.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189089

James:
Ginny is a second tier character that, even in the midst of the H/G 
"love" affair still had little air time.
Then, she has certain Molly tendencies that would have me running for 
the hills.
Then, when Harry broke up with her, she said she expected it because 
Harry would never be happy unless he was fighting Moldie. Of course, 
Harry would be happy to be just Harry and have a normal life, but 
Ginny just sees her HERO.


luirhys:
I don't think that just because Ginny said this, it makes her 
hero-obsessed. After all, DD also made this point about Harry 
wanting to finish off Voldie even if there wasn't any prophecy.

Remember that Ginny has heard of Harry since she was a child. And 
had a crush on him since he saw him in the first book. Having this 
kind of feeling for someone makes you very attuned to their habits 
and feelings. She is one of the characters who really understand 
Harry. About her "molly" tendencies, I think this endears him to 
Harry, who really didn't have any experience with parental love.



From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Mar 31 01:53:10 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:53:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapdisc Cos 12
In-Reply-To: <hou2fv+fmng@eGroups.com>
References: <hou2fv+fmng@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4BB2AB06.4000803@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189090

justcarol67 wrote:
> same level). I suspect that DD ranks behind Severus in Occlumency but ahead of him in Legilimency. In fact, he probably taught Severus both skills. (I can't see LV, who trusts no one, teaching him either skill. The other alternative would be that he was self-taught.)
>   

    There are numerous hints in the books that while not as powerful as 
Morty or DD, Sevvy was in the same league. In any case, I think that one 
of the themes of the books which, unfortunately, was not as well 
resolved as the others, was the way that the House system could do more 
harm than good, and the need for more cooperation between the Houses. 
Yes, Sevvy made his choice, but a whole slew of friends telling him how 
great he was trumped one girlfriend who was almost ashamed to publicly 
admit that she was his friend (note that Hermoine and Ginny had no 
problem being friends with Luna).

    Bart



From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 04:25:46 2010
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 04:25:46 -0000
Subject: Chapdisc Cos 12
In-Reply-To: <4BB2AB06.4000803@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <houisa+227b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189091

   
> Bart:
> ... I think that one of the themes of the books which, unfortunately, was not as well resolved as the others, was the way that the House system could do more harm than good, and the need for more cooperation between the Houses. 
> Yes, Sevvy made his choice, but a whole slew of friends telling him how great he was trumped one girlfriend who was almost ashamed to publicly admit that she was his friend (note that Hermoine and Ginny had no problem being friends with Luna).

Kemper:
I think you got that last part a bit backwards. It's Luna who has no problem being friends with Hermione.

I agree about the reader's (or at least this reader's)anticipation of  Houses unification being a big dud.

Kemper




From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 31 02:00:48 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:00:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapdisc Cos 12
In-Reply-To: <4BB2AB06.4000803@moosewise.com>
References: <hou2fv+fmng@eGroups.com> <4BB2AB06.4000803@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <373619.98181.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189092


Bart:
There are numerous hints in the books that while not as 
powerful as Morty or DD, Sevvy was in the same league. In 
any case, I think that one of the themes of the books which, 
unfortunately, was not as well resolved as the others, was 
the way that the House system could do more harm than good, 
and the need for more cooperation between the Houses. 
Yes, Sevvy made his choice, but a whole slew of friends 
telling him how great he was trumped one girlfriend who was 
almost ashamed to publicly admit that she was his friend 
(note that Hermione and Ginny had no problem being friends 
with Luna).


luirhys: Is this about Lily? I don't think she was ASHAMED 
of Snape being his friend, going as far as defending him 
from the Marauders. It was actually Snape who ultimately 
pushed her away, as we can see in HBP, by calling her a 
'mudblood'.





From CatMcNulty at comcast.net  Wed Mar 31 14:43:39 2010
From: CatMcNulty at comcast.net (catmcnulty)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 14:43:39 -0000
Subject: Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <hor823+tqpo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hovn2r+109oc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189093



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nicole" <nikasmomma2001 at ...> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about everyone's opinion of why Harry is attracted to Ginny. I've only read the Deathly Hallow's so far (yes, that's backwards), but she seems kind of bland in comparison to other female characters.  What am I missing?
> ---Nicole


Cat: I was appalled at reading your post...the fact that you did and then even admitted to reading DH first! My opinion is that you have really cheated yourself of a grand adventure! You MISSED SO MUCH!!!!! Among the many elements of Harry's world and adventures, the evolution of the Harry+Ginny relationship! There are subtle hints through out the entire series!(It was very noticeable to me beginning in Chamber of Secrets) Just as 1 example: The one thing that Harry never had, and always wanted, in his life was "loving stability" ... don't you think that might describe Ginny, just a bit? .... I am sorry you missed soooooo much!!!!
 :-(

Cat




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Mar 31 22:48:55 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 22:48:55 -0000
Subject: Harry's Attraction to Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <hovn2r+109oc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hp0jgn+3ps8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189094

 
> Cat: I was appalled at reading your post...the fact that you did and then even admitted to reading DH first! My opinion is that you have really cheated yourself of a grand adventure! You MISSED SO MUCH!!!!! Among the many elements of Harry's world and adventures, the evolution of the Harry+Ginny relationship! There are subtle hints through out the entire series!(It was very noticeable to me beginning in Chamber of Secrets) Just as 1 example: The one thing that Harry never had, and always wanted, in his life was "loving stability" ... don't you think that might describe Ginny, just a bit? .... I am sorry you missed soooooo much!!!!
>  :-(



Potioncat:
Ah, Cat, no one gets to have the experience we first readers had...the years of anticipation and theories....sigh.

But on the other hand, I've fallen into a book that was in the later part of a series myself. It has its own little pleasures when you go back to the beginning with a bit of "seer" to your own point of view.
>