Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 189009



Alla:
> They are achieving something what their elders, mentors, etc for various
reasons were unable to achieve and younger generation did better in a sense.

Pippin:
If Dumbledore is such a rotter as you think, then Harry could surpass him by
turning over in his sleep. Not much drama in that, is there?

Alla:

Well, sure to me it is a no-brainer that Harry can surpass Dumbledore in his sleep if we were to evaluate his morals and his character, it is his independence from Dumbledore, from his conditioning or training I am looking for. Not complete independence from the voice of wisdom, but independence from clearly flawed voice of wisdom in my view. However again I totally aware that JKR does not think that way and thinks that Dumbledore is wonderful man and in essence good, so I am pretty sure she may not even think that Harry needs to surpass them. I am well aware that I am reading Dumbledore against author's intent. It is really not complicated to understand how author sees him.

Pippin:
Okay, I think I get it. You were waiting for the "I can't kill my own father"
moment when Luke realizes his mentors' moral judgement is flawed and trusts his
own higher self to help him deal with Vader. Is that it?

Alla:

Pretty much, yes, although I would frame it into more general terms and say that I was not even looking for a specific moment necessarily, it could be a gradual realization, but this is pretty much it in the nutshell.

Pippin:
But JKR said all along she wasn't writing "Star Wars." 

Alla:

JKR also said that she was not writing fantasy (inserts massive eye roll here). I mean of course she was not writing Star Wars, but again per her own words, she was working in the genre where wise old man dies and the hero goes on and where the hero should overgrow a father figure, if I remember the gist of her comments correctly. Sounds to me as if she wants to have her cake and eat it too. Because if she IS writing in the genre, the hero slavishly (IMO) attached to what his  mentor wants in the last chapters of the book looks bizarre to me. And if she is subverting the genre, I really want to know what in her books does qualify as subversion of the genre. You know, I am thinking now that maybe my main frustration does come from the very deep desire for JKR to keep her mouth shut when it comes to explanations how readers should read her books , sigh. I still want to know the facts about Potterverse, but as to everything else, oh dear, please not. Maybe I paid attention to her interviews for a long time and when time passes and I am trying to see a picture in my mind that ties her intent  and what is in the books, I really cannot picture it. I do not know what it is exactly, but I know that I am definitely frustrated.



Pippin:
Harry has a higher power,
a mental image of the epitome of goodness, but it was created in Dumbledore's
image, and it has flaws, just as the real Dumbledore did.
Harry can't tell
whether he's consulting the real Dumbledore or his mental image of him, but it
doesn't matter, because finally and after much angst about who this man really
was, they are reconciled. Harry can trust Dumbledore even though Dumbledore
isn't always right because he knows and accepts what Dumbledore's limits are.

Alla:

Right, but my problem is that Harry still cannot make a decision without consulting Dumbledore's image. It is just to me, not the place to do that when all bets are off and it is Harry's time to do that.

As sort of an aside, I think Zara got what Harry's relationship with Dumbledore symbolizes one hundred percent right, I think she told  me that once in our offlist discussions. Zara, if I am misrepresenting please correct me.

I think she said that Harry's crisis with Dumbledore, thinking that he betrayed him and choosing to follow him on his own symbolizes somebody's crisis of faith (be it a Christian or any faith, but you know I agree that books are largely based on Christianity), however despite this metaphor Dumbledore is not meant to be shown as God. 

I think Zara is 100% right on the money, but then all what it says about Harry to me that he learned how to be good follower of dead Albus Dumbledore.


Pippin:
Harry *is* asking his highest self what he should do -- but with the twist
that he knows his highest self isn't always going to be right. How does he know
it's right at King's Cross? Because it's pointing towards the more difficult
choice.

JKR is saying that in the end, no matter whom we take as our epitome of
goodness, it's going to be flawed and it can lead us astray. That doesn't mean
there's no good and evil. It just means they're not as easy to tell apart as the
innocent believe. Our concept of the greater good is shaped by our upbringing
and we're kidding ourselves if we think we've achieved complete independence
from it. And when we expect other people to do it, we're expecting a lot too
much.

There's little point in grieving endlessly about the moral decisions we made
and feel bad about. It's the ones we *don't* feel bad about that should trouble
us. Especially the ones that should be fraught and are easy.
How do we know it was wrong for Harry to use the Unforgivable Curses even though
he never expresses any regret? Because it was *easy*.

Alla:

I think what you wrote is really beautiful, I am just not sure if JKR had this mind when she wrote that chapter.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
It would have been so easy for Harry to pressure Al into agreeing that being in
Slytherin wouldn't make any difference, and some of us were annoyed that he
didn't. Does that mean Harry doesn't really think that Slytherin would be just
as good? Or does it mean that, unlike Dumbledore, Harry shows respect for Al's
choices even when he doesn't think they're wise?


Alla:

I like that too, I really was only half joking when I said that naming his son could have been coming out of age moment, since I do not consider Kings Cross as one, but I like yours too, I mean not enough drama, but really quite satisfying in more subtle way. I have to think about it.