Coming of Age in the Potterverse was Re: Dumbledore as shameless

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 189041


Pippin:
I think she also wants us to see that the conventional fantasy universe, where
"one step down the dark path and it will forever dominate your destiny" is a
distortion of reality. There isn't really a progression between the selfish,
cruel, greedy, power-hungry indifference of ordinary evil and the conscienceless
behavior of a psychopath. No matter how many bad choices Crouch Sr. and Peter
Pettigrew make they don't become like Voldemort, forever incapable of remorse.

Tolkien and Lewis revived the heroic fantasy genre because they thought that
the novel was inadequate to deal with the problem of evil in the modern world.
How could individual character flaws account for an entire civilized nation
going bad? So they re-introduced the idea of cosmic evil as a force in human
affairs and this idea has become embedded in the genre. I think it's this idea
that JKR subverts.

Alla:
Ah. Oh. Okay, if you are arguing that JKR subverts fantasy genre in the idea of cosmic evil and actually mean that she is subverting Tolkien and Lewis in that regard, I can see that. The thing is when I am talking about fantasy genre, I am thinking of Tolkien and Lewis as very important part of it, but quite small part of it really. I mean, believe me I am not trying to downplay Tolkien's importance, I dearly love LOTR myself, but fantasy genre's best works really did take it on whole new level IMO and often far more grey one. Because really, I love the world that Tolkien created, but characters there are either good guys or bad guys, are they not, like really good ones or really bad ones. Again, I am not sure how much of fantasy genre you have read, since you are only quoting these two writers, but that's not where a lot of writers stand these days, good writers I mean, the ones who really can write strong plots and characters.

Have you tried Martin's series for example? I mean I doubt the man is ever going to finish them so in a sense I do regret starting them, but characters there are making many many many bad choices and no, they do not become evil in the irrevocable sense lol. Most of the characters are extremely grey and what can look as very evil from one POV may look extremely understanding from another and next time character can easily redeem herself with the good choice she makes.

Anyway, same as Montavilla I am also taking issue with "one step and you are evil" thing; I do not see it even in Tolkien. Surely Boromir (the only character I really love in LOTR heh) did not become evil even though he was tempted?

And of course as I said above if we sample fantasy genre more than just Tolkien and Lewis, we will find what Montavilla said, hero can make plenty bad choices and still redeem himself. So again, I do not see what is so subversive in JKR's work, unless what she really meant when she said that is that she was changing the cosmic evil part in fantasy and that would be indeed different from Tolkien and Lewis, I agree with that. I do not find anything cosmically evil in Voldemort, just a monstrosity who was born from human parents.

Pippin:
The hero of a conventional fantasy must realize that he is on the verge of
becoming totally evil and make a choice that saves him (or, like Frodo Baggins,
find that a past choice has made it possible for him to be saved.)

For years we speculated about how this little drama would play out in the
Potterverse. But, IMO, JKR always intended to show up the convention for what it
was: a fiction that led us to sacrifice truth for clarity.

Alla:

I fully admit that I do not understand how it is happening even in Tolkien, but maybe I am missing a symbolism of that happening in Tolkien, I never took Frodo possible failing in his mission as a sign that he is on the verge of becoming totally evil, but maybe I just did not get it. However let me stress it most emphatically, NO the hero in the fantasy genre does not usually have to realize that he is on the verge of becoming totally evil and make a choice that saves him. Greyness is allowed in the characters in fantasy, you know? It usually makes for really good reading and no, JKR did not discover a wheel here. Bad choices are made and good choices are made and still characters do not have to become evil. Of course there are books I am sure that do just that, I just do not read them. Have you read Robin Hobb's books? Have you read Louis McMaster Bujold books about Miles Vorkosigan? I could be very wrong but I thought that Bujold loves Miles and thinks of him as really decent guy, but he has to make choices which are really grey or lesser of two evils plenty of times throughout the books 

Are you saying that Harry was supposed to be on the verge of evilness, to go to the Dark side or to almost go to the dark side and then realize it? I thought JKR was not writing Star wars as we discussed before. I did not expect (to the best of my recollection certainly I cannot remember all of my old posts) for him to do that necessarily, really. I thought the temptation could be there, but certainly did not see it as the only possibility of how the story will go.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
Harry does want revenge on Amycus. But he didn't use the cruciatus curse 
because he was on the verge of becoming eeevil, he just lost his temper. And
McGonagall is on the verge of panic when she Imperio's the Carrows, as Harry and
Hermione were when they were in Gringotts. <SNIP>

Alla:

Sure I totally agree with you here. My only point of disagreement is that I do not see much subversive or novel in it, unless we are talking about Tolkien and Lewis only.

Pippin:
Carol said that Harry had crossed a line. But Harry crosses lines all the time.
People in canon are always drawing lines and trying to make other people feel
bad about crossing them. But no one is ever sorry because they crossed a line,
only that the consequences aren't what they intended. And that's what's key.

Alla:

I do not understand what you mean, could you clarify? Nobody is ever sorry in canon that they crossed the line or is it how you think things work out in RL? And if they are never sorry in canon, only sorry for wrong consequences, is it a good thing? Key to what?

Pippin:
Voldemort, Umbridge, Crouch Jr, Bella, Fenrir, Lockhart -- the really bad
people in the Potterverse never feel sorry for anything they've done, and no
amount of pain or loss can make them do so.

Alla:

Right, they are not sorry, oh you are saying that they are not sorry for consequences either and good guys are sorry for consequences?

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
As far as Crouch, Sr. goes; I don't think he's ever presented as someone
evil. He's simply a tragic figure who sacrifices his family (through neglect) 
in order to protect his community. According to Sirius (who suffers from
his policies), he went too far. But there's not even the slightest hint that
he's on Voldemort's side. <SNIP>


Alla:

Right I agree, but I thought this was Pippin's point too, that Crouch was not evil despite making bad choices and that this is novel and subversive idea. I could be wrong.

Montavilla47:
Interesting. I thought that Lewis was much more on a human level of good/bad,
though. I suppose the Witch is cosmically evil, but the real battle isn't over
the
world, but the soul of one person at a time.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Oh here I agree with Pippin too, I thought Lewis is on pretty cosmic level of good and evil, since cosmic forces are battling for the soul, even if it is one person at a time. After all, Boromir was also one person when Ring was attacking him, right?

But I fully admit that while I love Tolkien, I am extremely biased against Lewis' books, can barely tolerate them, and think that the message that they carry especially Last Battle is quite evil, so I may not be the best person to talk about them (one person from that other nation can enter the real Narnia, really?) Sorry, for all the talk about JKR portraying the Other, I think Lewis was the one who did it and that makes me annoyed every time I think about that book.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
And even Susan, who is condemned for her distraction with boys and
make-up, isn't lost forever. She's just forgotten what's important. There's
hope that someday she'll come back to an awareness of Narnia. <SNIP>

Alla:

I did not get any hope of that from that pompous speech of our sister Susan no longer friend of Narnia, but that's just my opinion. In fact every time I think about the ending, I think about a girl whose whole family just got killed and went to a better place and she has to stay on earth because she was wearing too much lipstick.

JMO,

Alla