From puduhepa98 at aol.com Sat May 1 01:14:39 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 01:14:39 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189184 --- >> > 1. I am pretty sure JKR was going for comic effect with the Mandrakes, but when I was rereading this chapter I found myself strangely disturbed by imagining young wizards and witches cutting the parts of the beings that seem so humanlike in their behavior. What part of the Mandrakes is being used in the potion? Are they going to be really and most sincerely dead before or during the process? Nikkalmati If you think about it, it is a little distressing, but i just took it as amusing that they were so humanlike. I assume they would be treated humainly at the proper time. >Nikkalmati > 2. "Travels with Trolls" is one of the items Harry finds on his bed after the villain who stole the diary went through his trunk. What was the reason for Lockhart to assign it as one of the books for class, what did you think he was hoping students will learn from that book? Nikkalmati I think he assigned all of his books to the classes he taught with the intention that they would learn all about him (his bithday, his favorite color). Nikkalmati > 3. What was your first impression of Cornelius Fudge? Nikkalmati he seemed like a weak-kneed bureaucrat at first, but I was impressed that he stuck up for DD in front of Malfoy. Nikkalmati > > 4. I know it will come as no surprise to anybody but I found myself if not sympathizing with Lucius Malfoy (his tone showed to me that he had little if any concerns about the plight of Muggleborns), but at least definitely cheering him on and hoping in vain that somebody in the later books had guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore out of school for good. Did you think that Board of Governors provided effective checks and balances to Dumbledore's powers? Nikkalmati Were you already at this point so anti-Dumbledore? I don't think it would do any good to through him out because only a worse person would replace him, if LM had anything to do with it. The Board of Governors doesn't seem to pay much attention to the working of the school unless there is a crisis. I think they let DD do whatever he wanted. Nikkalmati > 5. If you remember your first reaction, did you believe that Hagrid was guilty? > Nikkalmati I don't believe that I thought for a moment that he was guilty of releasing the monster. I did think he might have done something wrong. I was puzzled, and I still am, about who Hagrid intended to shoot with a crossbow. Would it have done any good against the monster? Wouldn't he get petrified before he could shoot? Was he planning to shoot Fudge or Malfoy, if they came after him? Nikkalmati > 6. What did you think about Hermione being a victim? Was it a clue for you that the monster target Muggleborns? Was Hermione rash in her actions and put herself at risk? Did readers worry how Ron and Harry would manage without her? Why do we think Rowling wanted them to manage without her? Nikkalmati I believe it was clear before then that Muggleborns were targets. Was Penelope a Muggleborn? Why was she petrified and not killed? Were they both looking in the mirror? I think Hermione ran off to the library, but was taken by surprise by the monster when she left. She must have devised her strategy at the last minute. I don't think she was rash, but she was breaking the rules by being by herself. I did not worry about the boys without her, but I do think JKR wanted to show what they could do. BTW how does the Basilisk tell which students are Muggleborns? Nikkalmati > > 7. Who did you think stole the diary from Harry? Was Ginny among the suspects? > >Nikkalmati I didn't think of her because she did not seem to play a very large part and she was so young. She must have been very strong to throw away the diary. Why didn't Harry ever write in it after he saw Hagrid's story and why wasn't he ensnared in it. Ginny must have feared he would be captured by the diary as she had been, but didn't the fact that there were no incidents for several months tell her Harry was not possessed by Tom? Nikkalmati From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 1 11:19:13 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 11:19:13 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 10, The Rogue Bludger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189185 > Ceridwen > > 1. Harry submits to being Lockhart's supporting player but when the trio get the signature all it takes is Hermione gushing over Lockhart's book, Gadding with Ghouls. Was it necessary for Harry to have put himself through the play-acting? Potioncat: He didn't have much choice anyway--at least in his own mind he had a purpose. Snape taunts Harry, and Lockhart uses him--isn't it great to be famous! > > 2. Moste Potente Potions is a musty book. Are there other copies of this book around, perhaps in Snape's office, so advanced Potions students don't request this copy very often? Some of the illustrations are gruesome. Would this be a book an advanced student might need to use or is it a relic from much earlier times? Potioncat: Well, the word is actually moldy. I thought the book was very old, and possibly stained from potion ingredients. I wouldn't think it would be used very often. But I'd bet Barty Crouch took a look. > > 3. Harry, Fred and George all recognize that the rogue Bludger is attacking Harry. Couldn't anyone else on the field see that? Or is it that the game matters more than any individual thing going on? Potioncat: I don't get it either--you'd think Hooch would stop the game, or that McGonagall would do something. Snape took care of the jinxed broom, why not the rogue Bludger? > > > 6. A Basilisk's gaze can kill. When Dumbledore opens Colin's camera, a jet of steam hisses out. Is this consistent, do you think, with the full effects of a Basilisk's stare? Does the Basilisk's stare fry a person's insides, leaving a petrified shell? Potiocat: Well, it was a pretty cool effect. I could work it out to make it make sense, if I really had to. > > 7. Harry thinks that McGonagall is just as puzzled as he is when Dumbledore said the more important question is how the Chamber is being opened. Does Dumbledore know at this point that it would require the use of Parceltongue to open it? Potioncat: Well, it just struck me that we've been told there is no Chamber of Secrets, yet both DD and McG seem to believe the non-existant chamber was opened before. I'm never very clear as to what DD really thinks or believes. Thanks for these interesting questions! I have a couple too, now that I have time to re-join HP. 8. Lockhart describes wrestling with a werewolf. Did anyone believe that story? Even before we saw what a WW Werewolf is like? So why is he so popular? 9. And what really happened in that village? if Lockhart interviews the real wizard, and wipes his memory, did someone rid a village of a werewolf---or is this one all fiction? From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 1 15:57:51 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 15:57:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189186 > > 1. I am pretty sure JKR was going for comic effect with the Mandrakes, but when I was rereading this chapter I found myself strangely disturbed by imagining young wizards and witches cutting the parts of the beings that seem so humanlike in their behavior. What part of the Mandrakes is being used in the potion? Are they going to be really and most sincerely dead before or during the process? > Pippin: Most comedy is disturbing on some level. Presumably despite their mimicry of human beings, the mandrakes are plants with no central nervous system or self-awareness and can't actually think for themselves. I realize that's a dangerous assumption in the wizarding world. Still, I think if you cut a mandrake open you'd just find something like a potato, not flesh and blood. If JKR was going for an effect besides broad comedy, I think it's to point up how category-dependent our thinking is. It's just plants, so it's okay. But potion-making does require parts of other animals which are presumably raised and killed for the purpose. > 2. "Travels with Trolls" is one of the items Harry finds on his bed after the villain who stole the diary went through his trunk. What was the reason for Lockhart to assign it as one of the books for class, what did you think he was hoping students will learn from that book? Pippin: I suppose, having required that everyone buy his books, he felt he had better assign some homework from them. I don't think Lockhart was interested in teaching anything except how great he was. > 3. What was your first impression of Cornelius Fudge? Pippin: It was hard to take him seriously in his lime green hat. > > 4. I know it will come as no surprise to anybody but I found myself if not sympathizing with Lucius Malfoy (his tone showed to me that he had little if any concerns about the plight of Muggleborns), but at least definitely cheering him on and hoping in vain that somebody in the later books had guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore out of school for good. Did you think that Board of Governors provided effective checks and balances to Dumbledore's powers? Pippin: I thought the Board of Governors just took care of the business end of running the school. I didn't think it was supposed to function in an adversarial role. Presumably they hired Dumbledore because they agreed with his educational philosophy or, in Malfoy's case, pretended to. Parents who don't agree can send their children elsewhere or pressure the Ministry. I can see where someone might agree with Malfoy that only the worthiest should be protected while disagreeing violently on who the worthiest are. But JKR is engaged, IMO, in showing the flaw in that philosophy. We all know Harry never makes any real Slytherin friends. But what I just noticed is that the Muggleborns are the counterweight to the Slyths. Harry never makes any real Muggleborn enemies. He doesn't hate Hermione, no matter what she does, even when he thinks that she's gotten his best friend's pet killed or ratted him out to McGonagall. The worst he can think of to do in seven books is have Hedwig peck her for not writing. But it's not just her. Even when Justin is spreading ugly rumors about him, Harry doesn't fight back, though everyone thinks he has reason to. My guess is Harry identifies with Muggleborns so deeply, sympathizes with them so much, that hating one of them would be like hating himself. Now obviously this is completely subjective on his part. I mean, even Hermione's biggest fans would not think she is so lovely that no one could possibly hate her ever. And it's not a conscious decision of Harry's. Harry doesn't have to bite back on his hatred or argue it away. It's just not there. And that's JKR's point, IMO. Our judgements about who is worthy are so subjective, so influenced by unconscious factors, that, just like the Founders, we as a society are never going to agree on who the worthiest are. That is why Dumbledore, instead of protecting the worthy as Malfoy would have him do, protects those who can least protect themselves. > 5. If you remember your first reaction, did you believe that Hagrid was guilty? Pippin: I didn't think he had deliberately set the monster on students. But I thought he might be in denial about what it was doing when he wasn't around. > > 6. What did you think about Hermione being a victim? Was it a clue for you that the monster target Muggleborns? Was Hermione rash in her actions and put herself at risk? Did readers worry how Ron and Harry would manage without her? Why do we think Rowling wanted them to manage without her? Pippin: I think I was surprised that a main character was out of the action for so long. But I think JKR wanted to show us the Ron/Harry dynamic -- and of course she wanted to preserve the mystery, which is hard when you have a character who is so good at figuring things out. > > 7. Who did you think stole the diary from Harry? Was Ginny among the suspects? Pippin: I had no idea. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 16:52:53 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 16:52:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189187 Replying to Pippin and Nikkalmati with apologies for cutting out your quotes completely - technical capability of the device is limited in that regard. Pippin I said nothing about agreeing with Malfoy's philosophy, I said I was cheering him on while knowing he was not in the slightest way concerned for Muggleborns. I certainly thought that Dumbledore was saying all the right words in that regard, but no I do not think he acted to protect those who least able to protect themselves. I certainly think that Katie Bell and Ron were least able to protect themselves than Draco Malfoy. Nikkalmati, no I was not as antiDumbledore when I read CoS for the first time or second time even. :) it all came gradually, it started with disliking him placing Harry at Dursleys but then for the long time I was thinking maybe he did not know how bad Harry was treated. Then I disliked that Dumbledore did not interfere to protect Harry from Snape, but again I thought oh maybe he did not know. But even if he did I thought that he still valued a life of the innocent, then I realized that he did not even bother to protect Sirius and decided that he was God and took Harry from him against Lily and James'wishes and then we had book six when he decided that Draco Malfoy is worth saving at the cost of innocent kids being put in danger. And book seven sold the deal for me, it was the peaque of learning the extent of Dumbledore's manipulativeness, certainly some of his actions were surprising that he would go that far, but in general it was just the icing of the cake. Raising an innocent boy in pain and misery to make sure he would love WW so much more than Dursleys and would have no objection to being its sacrificial lamb? Manipulating man in pain into lifetime of service and eventually insisting this man would pull the trigger? Merciless order to betray the Order even though it increases chance of deaths that could have been avoided otherwise? Oh I forgot about making sure that Harry would not tell any of the adults about his quest. I mean could it be that they would have better chances otherwise? I tend to really really hate manipulative characters especially if others are being hurt by their actions and unable to fight back. Usually it takes one or two actions by the character to make me hate him. Anybody is reading Dresden files series and its last book Changes? If you are, just to give you an example I am ready to hate Harry big time, Harry whom I adored for eleven books and all it took is one manipulation, one ruthless action, which I will not describe it here for spoiler reasons. Albus Dumbledore screwed and hurt so many innocent lives IMO that I could have started hating him long long time ago. Must stop I can vent for a long time and of course everything I said is just my opinion. Alla From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 16:56:41 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 16:56:41 -0000 Subject: LV's plan (was: DD's plan) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189188 > Pippin: > > > > It's logical to think that Harry, with the soul bit inside him, > will have some affinities with Voldemort which might help him to > find a horcrux, which Dumbledore had so far failed to do. The > horcrux will be guarded with spells so lethal that just getting to > it will be a challenge. Mike: I see what you're saying, Pippin, about Harry joining the Horcrux hunting team, and I agree. Harry, having the soul bit inside him (which I think DD realized was the case almost immediately after seeing the lightning shaped wound on infant Harry), was a logical choice. But, let's look at LV's Horcrux defenses, shall we? Were they really all that? 1. The Diary - well,... he intended that to fall into some unsuspecting souls hands, and to have that person use it. So putting any defenses on that would be counter-productive. 2. The Ring - YES, good job there. It took someone of Dumbledore's caliber to retrieve it. And it took someone of DD's knowledge of him to even find it. Bad luck having DD against him, wasn't it? 3. The Locket - BIG YES. It took all of the above and more. It took a second being that wouldn't register in the boat. In the case of Regulus, who after all retrieved it first, it took someone willing to die to get it. That's generally considered to be a fair deterrent. 4. The Cup - Hmm,... I'm thinking not so good there. All LV did was give it to Bella to hide. Bella, sticking it in her vault and adding that burning, reproducing spell, did only an OK job, IMHO. Granted, it took a Gringotts goblin just to open the vault, but that doesn't seem to be such a big deterrent any more, does it? If Harry and company managed to retrieve it, I don't consider it that well protected. 5. The Tiara - Sorry, no dice on this one. All LV counted on was it being hidden in a room that was semi-hard to get into and in amongst a bunch of other junk. As near as I can determine, there were no protective spells on it otherwise. 6. Nagini - OK, she was with him almost all the time, and she could communicate with him through some telepathic means (at great distance it appears - Nagini at Bathilda's place and LV at heaven knows where). But, he did send Nagini out on missions, witness the Batilda caper. If Harry had possessed Gryffindor's sword at that time, Nagini might have lost her head a few chapters earlier. It was only after the other 5 were gone did LV seriously protect Nagini. Well,... sorta. He did let her get a little too close to Neville, didn't he? Scorecard time: On 2 he gets an A+, excellent hiding and defenses. On 2 he gets an F, poor hiding and no defenses. Yeah, one was intentional, but still... On 1 he gets a C-, he left everything up to a subordinant, a fanatical one, but he did nothing himself. And she didn't do so well on either the hiding or the defenses. On the last, Nagini, I'm giving him a B-. She was not hidden any more than he was hidden, but that was pretty good at times. She had only her inherrent self-defenses, but when she was with him she was pretty darn well protected. Yet still, she was sent out on missions, she was his infiltration device at the Ministry in OotP, she had the Bathilda mission, and where was she while LV was flying all over creation looking for the Big Stick? She wasn't with him then, was she? Overall, I give LV a C+ on his defense of the Horcruxes plan. Granted, it took having a DD out there to ruin his plan, but that was a reality that he was all too aware of. ~Mike From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat May 1 17:58:43 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 May 2010 17:58:43 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/2/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1272736723.517.93103.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189189 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 2, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 1 18:36:11 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 18:36:11 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: . Pippin I said nothing about agreeing with Malfoy's philosophy, I said I was cheering him on while knowing he was not in the slightest way concerned for Muggleborns. I certainly thought that Dumbledore was saying all the right words in that regard, but no I do not think he acted to protect those who least able to protect themselves. I certainly think that Katie Bell and Ron were least able to protect themselves than Draco Malfoy. Pippin: Could you explain that? Who was going to protect Draco from Voldemort if Dumbledore and Snape did not? Not only do Ron and Katy have friends who rush to their defense and save their lives, they have friends who would tell them they were idiotic to trust LV. Draco's friends don't say anything like that -- they're awed and a little scared, but they don't think he's being rash or stupid. Ron also has a whole family who is willing to endanger itself in order to protect him from LV. Narcissa wants to protect Draco, but she's not going so far as to rebel against her master openly. There isn't any way to oppose Voldemort and not create hostages to fortune. But I would rather say, if I had to, that I had lost a hostage child because I opposed Voldemort, than to say I had lost a hostage child because I didn't. Likewise, of all the Order members, DH!Snape is the most defenseless. No one is going to come to his aid if Voldemort decides to kill him. Harry does not rush to save Snape as he rushed to save Arthur or Sirius. If Dumbledore does not defend him, yes, by endangering other Order members if he must, then no one will. And Alla, Dumbledore says nothing about placing Harry with the Dursleys so that he will love the WW more than them. Dumbledore gives two reasons only, one, so that Harry will not receive celebrity treatment, and two, so that Harry will be protected from Voldemort and his allies. If this was nonsense, DADA experts like Mad-eye, Lupin and Shacklebolt would think they needed to guard Harry every moment while he was at the Dursleys. But no, they're certain that the DE's can't approach, even with Dumbledore gone. The only time Harry needed to be specially guarded at the Dursleys was when the Ministry, not allied with Voldemort at that time, was out to get him. Anyway, Voldemort hates Muggles just as much as he hates wizards, so Harry would have no reason to think that if he left the WW to Voldemort, Voldemort would be satisfied and the Muggle world would be safe. Nor does Dumbledore say anything about keeping Snape in pain so that Snape will serve him. In fact he's astonished by Snape's patronus. He had no idea that Snape was still acting for Lily's sake. Pippin From technomad at intergate.com Sat May 1 18:49:28 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 13:49:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100501134928.03ofhv4hj44o0swk@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189191 Quoting dumbledore11214 : > > But eve! > n if he did I thought that he still valued a life of the innocent, > then I realized that he did not even bother to protect Sirius and > decided that he was God and took Harry from him against Lily and > James'wishes Do we have canon that documentation of Lily and James' wishes in re. Harry's custody in the event of their deaths existed, or was known to exist, at the time of their deaths? If it was in their house, it might have been destroyed or lost. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 19:01:56 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 19:01:56 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 15: Aragog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" wrote: > 6. The Anglia has been trundling around the forest on its own > all school year. What is its fuel? zanooda: I thought the enchanted car didn't require any fuel, just like the wizard radio doesn't require any electricity... :-). From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 19:03:48 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 19:03:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189193 Ok so have to cut out your post again. Who was going to protect Draco from Voldemort if not Dumbledore? I think the question assumes that Draco either: a) needed b) wanted 9) asked for such protection. Draco happily and voluntarily went into such service with open eyes and boasted to. His friends about being chosen. Sure you do not have to tell me that he did not realize the extent he was signing up for. Oh wait, he knew he signed up for murder and he attempted to commit murder several times. The only thing he did not realize is that Voldemort will be threatening his family to speed up his service. When attempts to kill Dumbledore through Katie and Ron did not work, he tried and tried again. Yes he cold not kill Dumbledore face to face but despite all that Dumbledore says he was perfectly fine trying long distance murders. Ron and katie have no idea that there is a murderer running around and their headmaster allows him to do so with open eyes, even after double murder attempts. I of course do not know if Headmaster code of conduct book exists, but if it did I am pretty sure that the rule about protecting his students from murderer would supersede the rule about protecting such murderer or attempted murderer. IMO of course. And the order members who have no clue that their headmaster ordered Snape to become a traitor again are more able to protect themselves against something they do not know happened than Snape? Snape knows perfectly well what he signed up for, he is supposedly such a great occlumenc that he consistently fools Voldemort himself. Um, sorry I actually think that poor wretch Fletcher was the one who was in most need of protection there. Alas. Dumbledore indeed says nothing about sending Harry there in order for him to love WW more, I just consider it one step inference. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 19:19:18 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 19:19:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189194 I realized that I did not address one of your points Pippin, I did not say anything about Dumbledore keeping Snape in pain in order to ensure his service. I said that he manipulated Snape WHEN he was in pain and on that night he ensured his service. Dumbledore got Snape's word and it was not something that Snape needed to reaffirm every year lol. Alla From catlady at wicca.net Sat May 1 23:48:51 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 23:48:51 -0000 Subject: Fudge/ No Trial/ Chapter 14/ DD's Plan/ Chapter 15/ Lockhart/ Hiding Places Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189195 Shelley wrote in : << But that's exactly what is wrong with Fudge as Minister- he's unwilling to make the REALLY TOUGH decisions. Sacrificing a few Death Eaters so that Lord Thingy could not have his talented pool of thugs to regain power would have been a wise, sensible and best decision all the way around. It shows planning, forethought of preventing disaster. >> There is another option besides 1) do nothing, 2) kill the prisoners, 3) dismiss the Dementors so that the prisoners are free to just walk out and go to Voldemort. He should have prepared the necessary orders and logistics to replace the Dementor guards with Hit Wizards and Aurors as guards, and issued the orders and announced that Voldemort had returned to Britain and that the Dementors were going to change to being on his side and therefore he was dismissing the Dementors from Azkaban and replacing them with tough, skillful, loyal wizards. Then the prisoners might well have been killed while trying to escape, without it being a euphemism, and if they didn't try to escape, that would be all to the good. Of course, Fudge's judgment of people is so bad that he trusts Lucius Malfoy, so he might well have chosen tough, skillful, Death Eater wizards as replacement guards. I believe there are potions to improve one's memory; are there potions to improve one's judgment? He could have taken one dose of Felix Felicis, causing luck rather than judgment to make the right decision... if he had believed that making that decision was such an important day. With Felix Felicis, Fudge might have even somehow have found that a majority of his people approved at least slightly of his decision. Without Felix, half the people want him to trust Dumbledore and believe that Voldemort is still a danger while half the people don't trust Dumbledore and believe that Voldemort is dead forever, half the people believe that the Dementors are an important weapon for the Ministry to use and the other half are varyingly distrustful of Dementors and somewhat glad to see them dismissed from government service, while somewhat fearful that the fired Dementors will take up the Dementor version of free-lance banditry. But someone with even a little more charisma than Fudge, such as Amelia Bones or Rufus Scrimgeour or even Barty Crouch Sr (except for being dead) could have got the majority of the people to agree with his/her decision. Then some more people will decide that it is better to unite on not-the-best plan rather than to argue. Eric Oppen wrote in : << One of the things that shocked me most was Sirius' casually mentioning that he hadn't been the only one thrown into Azkaban _sans_ trial. >> I also found that shocking, but later we heard Dumbledore say that he himself had testified that Sirius was the Potters' Secret Keeper. That indicates that if Sirius didn't have a trial, there was at least some kind of hearing. Those who hate Dumbledore now may discuss whether he believed his own testimony. Alla discussed CoS Chapter 14 in : << Harry discovers that Riddle diary was stolen from him. Since it was taken from his room only a fellow Gryffindor could have done that. >> Or by a House Elf, altho' a House Elf wouldn't have left such a mess unless ordered to do so. Or by a student using Polyjuice (or Invisibility Cloak) and coming in the door with a real Gryffindor saying the password. Mike Crudele wrote in : << I think DD understood that LV had to resume corporeal form if he was ever going to be vanquished permanently. (snip) But that's why he brought the Philosopher's Stone to Hogwarts. I think all of those tests were designed to keep the students out, not LV (or rather the Quirrel/LV hybrid). (snip) Harry messed that up and almost got himself killed in the process. What was DD supposed to say to Harry after all that? "Good job, old boy, you mucked up everything." No, he can't deflate Harry, so he uses the incident to implant a *you're special* message to Harry. >> New idea. Good idea. Pippin wrote in : << But safety in numbers is a coward's safety, in the Gryffindor way of looking at things. It is either the safety of sheltering behind someone stronger, or of surviving because someone weaker or less fortunate than you was picked off instead.>> Didn't they learn teamwork from all that Quidditch? In school matches, the Seeker might think that he wins all by himself (hmm, is having Beaters to fight the Bludgers cowardly?), but none of the other positions would get that idea. Alas, the arrogance of believing that oneself is indispensable and irreplaceable, and therefore not bothering about training a back-up person nor preparing a succession plan strikes me as typical Gryffindor arrogance. Pippin wrote in : << Why not some world class experts on dark magic, and a world class expert on Voldemort, and someone who was utterly loyal to Harry and a badass fighter too? Oh wait, I've just described Snape, Lupin, Dumbledore and Sirius. >> Which is which? If you listed them in order, they would be: Snape: expert on Dark Magic Lupin: expert on Voldemort Dumbledore: utterly loyal to Harry Sirius: bad-ass fighter Ceridwen discussed CoS Chapter 15 in : << 2. Madam Pomfrey cautions Harry and Ron that the attacker might come back. Was this a vote of confidence for Hagrid? >> Yes. Everyone who knew Hagrid knew he wasn't letting one of his monsters loose inside the castle. Everyone who knew Hagrid knew he couldn't keep a secret for anything. Nikkalmati wrote in : << I was puzzled, and I still am, about who Hagrid intended to shoot with a crossbow. Would it have done any good against the monster? >> This is a forbidden "Me, too" post. << BTW how does the Basilisk tell which students are Muggleborns? >> I believe that the Basilisk can't tell which students are Muggleborns and that the Basilisk mainly attacks targets of convenience rather than choosing whom to attack. That all the attacked students were Muggleborn, while Tom Riddle's and Lucius Malfoy's intention, was just a lucky-for-them coincidence. Like all the attack victims saw the Basilisk through something or reflected in something and therefore were petrified instead of killed was a lucky-for-them (and for Dumbledore) coincidence. Was Sir Nicholas Muggleborn? Potioncat asked in : << 8. Lockhart describes wrestling with a werewolf. Did anyone believe that story? Even before we saw what a WW Werewolf is like? So why is he so popular? >> Plenty of wizarding folk were plenty gullible where Lockhart was concerned. Oh, do you mean us readers? Rowling made it plenty clear that Lockhart was a big fake, so I don't suppose any readers believed any of his claims. Even the Hogwarts professor saw through the following: L said Mrs Norris is totally dead. D, who had been examining her, said she was not dead, just petrifed, L immediately said that he had been saying all along that she was petrified. How could he possibly have imagined that anyone would believe him with such QUICK self-contradiction? Is it POSSIBLE that all those witches who idolized him DID believe his latest claim even if it contradicted his claim of less than one minute ago? Or do you mean, do we readers believe that some wizard somewhere wrestled a werewolf and won? Yeah, I do. Maybe that wizard drank a Super Strength Smoothie or Gloves Of Super Strength, and, while trying to put shackles on him, levitated a big rubber ball into the werewolf's mouth so it couldn't bite and infect him. 9. And what really happened in that village? if Lockhart interviews the real wizard, and wipes his memory, did someone rid a village of a werewolf---or is this one all fiction? >> I believe this really happened, including the Homorphus Charm. But the Homorphus Charm does not cure lycanthropy; it only turns the werewolf's appearance back to human for a short moment. But that short moment is long enough for his neighbors to recognize him. So they can easily kill him when the Full Moon ends, leaving him a vulnerable and exhausted human being. Mike Crudele wrote in : << The Cup - Hmm,... I'm thinking not so good there. All LV did was give it to Bella to hide. Bella, sticking it in her vault and adding that burning, reproducing spell, did only an OK job, IMHO. Granted, it took a Gringotts goblin just to open the vault, but that doesn't seem to be such a big deterrent any more, does it? If Harry and company managed to retrieve it, I don't consider it that well protected. >> I think the burning, reproducing spell was standard in Gringotts vault, applied by the Goblins (possibly to the vaults rather than to their changeable contents) rather than by Bella. I think LV told her to put it in her Gringotts vault, rather than she thought of that herself. I think a Gringotts vault is a pretty safe hiding place, which Our Heroes could not have even broken into, let alone got out again, if the author hadn't been pulling strings in a big way. << 5. The Tiara - Sorry, no dice on this one. All LV counted on was it being hidden in a room that was semi-hard to get into and in amongst a bunch of other junk. >> It seems he believed that he was the only person who could find or get into the Room of Rubbish, just as he was the only person who could get into the Chamber of Secrets. Unless he had some reason to believe that Salazar had created the Room of Rubbish for his Heir, that was a piece of his megalomania or narcissism. From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 00:59:44 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 00:59:44 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14 and Protecting Draco (Longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189196 > > Alla' questions: > > 1. I am pretty sure JKR was going for comic effect with the > > Mandrakes, > Nikkalmati > > If you think about it, it is a little distressing, but i just > took it as amusing that they were so humanlike. I assume they > would be treated humainly at the proper time. Mike: I think Pippin said it best. Things aren't always what they seem in the WW. JKR liked to use a lot of euphemisms. The Mandrakes *partying" and "joining another's pot" and even "developing acne" could have been replacements for the Mandrakes tendency towards a cannibalistic nature or a desire to crowd out and strangle the weaker plants, as plants might do in a forest. > > 3. What was your first impression of Cornelius Fudge? > Nikkalmati > > he seemed like a weak-kneed bureaucrat at first, but I was > impressed that he stuck up for DD in front of Malfoy. Mike: In the Potterverse, names meant everything, didn't they? Cornelius - a nice name for a pompous politician. Fudge - a pliant, sweet but unnutritious concoction. So we had a pompous yet pliant politician, a nice guy at heart, but was of little use by himself. > > 4. I know it will come as no surprise to anybody but I found > > myself if not sympathizing with Lucius Malfoy, at least > > definitely cheering him on and hoping in vain that somebody in > > the later books had guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore > > out of school for good. > Nikkalmati > > Were you already at this point so anti-Dumbledore? I don't think > it would do any good to throw him out because only a worse person > would replace him, if LM had anything to do with it. The Board of > Governors doesn't seem to pay much attention to the working of the > school unless there is a crisis. I think they let DD do whatever > he wanted. Mike: I agree, the Board of Governors for Hogwarts acted much like our Detroit Public Schools board acts - in it for themselves with little concern for what went on in the school(s) unless it reflects badly on them. I do think Dumbledore could have used a little more oversight. But I also think the Board was probably overawed at having such a famous and powerful wizard as their headmaster. They pretty much proved themselves to be spineless, both in their reaction to LM's threats and later, in OotP, when they didn't lift a finger against Fudge and Umbridge's meddling. > Nikkalmati > > I don't believe that I thought for a moment that [Hagrid] was > guilty of releasing the monster. I did think he might have done > something wrong. I was puzzled, and I still am, about who Hagrid > intended to shoot with a crossbow. Would it have done any good > against the monster? Wouldn't he get petrified before he could > shoot? Was he planning to shoot Fudge or Malfoy, if they came > after him? Mike: Hagrid knew Tom Riddle framed him, and I think he knew Tom Riddle was really the one responsible for openning the chamber the first time. I figure DD at least told Order members that Riddle became Lord Voldemort, though I have no canon to support this suspicion either. But if the above was true, then Hagrid must have thought that LV had already returned, we know he had expected it to happen sooner or later. The crossbow was his best defense against LV, he certainly couldn't fight LV with magic. He would probably be counting on his giant blood to protect him against LV's first few volleys, enough to get off a few shots anyway. > Nikkalmati > > BTW how does the Basilisk tell which students are Muggleborns? Mike: The person controlling the Basilisk does it, right? I mean, a wild Basilisk (are they found in the wild?) wouldn't care what the heritage was of their prey, I'm guessing. > Nikkalmati > > I didn't think of her because she did not seem to play a very > large part and she was so young. She must have been very strong > to throw away the diary. Why didn't Harry ever write in it after > he saw Hagrid's story and why wasn't he ensnared in it. Ginny > must have feared he would be captured by the diary as she had been, > but didn't the fact that there were no incidents for several months > tell her Harry was not possessed by Tom? Mike: A couple of good points in your answer. The hint that Ginny was indeed strong enough to at least try to shed herself of the Diary/Horcrux once. It must have been possessing her for some time and she still managed to throw it into the toilet. Was the fact that Harry had a soul peice in him a defense against possession? Or was it Harry's unique ability to love, the thing that supposedly threw out Voldemort in OotP, that protected him? My thought, a soul piece wouldn't try to possess a person that already had a matching soul piece in him/her, what would be the point. Conversely, maybe some of our speculation about why Voldemort couldn't stand to be inside Harry was true. Maybe clashing two soul bits together makes them fight each other for dominance, or maybe they try to join back together causing excrutiating pain. -- From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189190 >> Pippin (on protecting Draco in HBP): >> There isn't any way to oppose Voldemort and not create hostages to fortune. But I would rather say, if I had to, that I had lost a hostage child because I opposed Voldemort, than to say I had lost a hostage child because I didn't. << Mike: Dumbledore showed me his true colors in his speech to Harry in OotP when he confessed to not caring "if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered..." And this is the dichotomy that is Albus Dumbledore. He does some things for the "greater good", like preparing Harry to die to get rid of the soul piece, sacrificing Order members to protect Snape's cover or his *plan*. Then he does other things, like protecting Draco, that can't be in any way said to be for the "greater good". Draco was not in his plan, Draco was not even a member of the good team. Draco was a rogue agent, acting recklessly in his attempt to carry out a murder for the bad guys. Just because DD was going to die and had no real concern for his own safety, does not give him carte blanche to expose the rest of the Hogwarts student body to this walking time bomb. I know DD was counting on Snape to keep an eye on Draco, hoping to obviate any collateral damage. But that wasn't working, was it? And DD wasn't even the one who saved the two collateral victims. I'm siding with Alla on this one. Shouldn't the protection of the rest of his students have come before the protection of an attempting and possibly future murderer? Pippin, you refer to Draco as a hostage child, but doesn't allowing him to continue his quest hold the rest of the school hostage to Draco's whims? You also said that Draco doesn't have any one to come to his defense, to tell him what he's doing is wrong. Didn't Draco have Snape out there trying to talk him out of his reckless behavior and Draco refusing to listen to wisdom? Didn't Snape take a vow with Narcissa to protect Draco? Just because Draco is too stupid and headstrong to listen to Snape does not make him a virtual orphan. It makes him an ass, and one not worthy of the protection he's been afforded and is refusing, IMNSHO. ~Mike From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 2 17:00:28 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 May 2010 17:00:28 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/2/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1272819628.477.85507.m14@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189197 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 2, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 21:27:59 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 21:27:59 -0000 Subject: The Rogue Bludger - not the B.M.O.C.'s fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189198 > > Ceridwen's questions: > > 3. Harry, Fred and George all recognize that the rogue Bludger is attacking Harry. Couldn't anyone else on the field see that? Or is it that the game matters more than any individual thing going on? > Potioncat: > I don't get it either--you'd think Hooch would stop the game, or > that McGonagall would do something. Snape took care of the jinxed > broom, why not the rogue Bludger? *************************************************************** Bludger Manufacturing & Operational Company (BMOC) It has been quite some time since we received any inquiries about our bludgers, and interestingly enough this one comes from the same young witch that asked the last one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/164012 We at BMOC would like to assure the wizarding public that our bludgers are not ever trained to go after only one player. Yes, we know that is was eventually discovered by a few wizards that this particular bludger was tampered with, but it seems the general public was never made aware that there was even a rogue bludger in this particular match. As to your question, the problem with spotting a rogue bludger from afar is that we train our bludgers to fly erratically in the first place. So if you aren't the person being chased, or one of the beaters fending off our little darlings, you wouldn't notice that this particular bludger keeps come back at the same person. Referees are trained to spot a bludger that is acting erratically, well... more eratically than usual. But there is so much going on during a match that often a wiley bludger can fool even the best referees. And yes, about 1 in a hundred produced can be considered wiley, by bludger standards that is. We usually save those for international competition. In one international match between Romania and Transylvania United, someone enchanted one of the bludgers to bite the necks of any player not wearing a Wolfsbane necklace, which all of the Transylvanian players just happen to be wearing that day. The inquiry after that match was a bugbear. It didn't help that our man at the inquiry, Mr. Gar Goyle, kept laughing at every penseive scene that was replayed, I can tell you. Oh, sorry, I digress. At any rate, the rogue bludger from this particular Hogwarts match never flew again. As most of you know, the Quiddich season was cancelled after that match, and Hogwarts always gets a new set of Quidditch balls for each new season. We can't say what ever happened to that particular bludger, for all we know it's still out there trying to find the same young man to knock off of his broom. One more thing, bludgers only attack people on brooms. The referees have a secret talisman that protects, and don't ask me what that is, we don't let that out, for obvious reasons. But that is why they wouldn't attack during a time-out. Of course that has nothing to do with them not wanting to go back into their storage box. Would you? ***************************************************************** ~Mike, wondering if Gar Goyle still has a job at BMOC? From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun May 2 23:23:46 2010 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 23:23:46 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 16: The Chamber of Secrets Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189199 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 16: The Chamber of Secrets. Harry and Ron are regretful that they had missed the opportunity to ask Myrtle about the Chamber but they and every other student are dismayed by the prospect of exams. Four days later, Professor McGonagall gives some slightly more welcome news in that the Mandrakes are ready for cutting. Ginny joins the boys and seems to be about to reveal something important but is jnterrupted by Percy's arrival and his assumption that she is about to tell tales about him. Lockhart has a cavalier attitude to the security arrangements, because he believes that Hagrid was the guilty party; Ron and Harry make use of this to escape to try to reach Myrtle's bathroom. Unfortunately, they meet Professor McGonagall but manage to convince her that they are actually going to see Hermione. As a result they do have to go to the Hospital Wing which proves fortunate because they rescue a piece of paper from Hermione's petrified hand giving detailed information about Basilisks and a suggestion that one is in the pipes. Harry outlines to Ron why he thinks no one has actually been killed this time and then realises that the entrance may be in Myrtle's bathroom. They are on the way to find McGonagall when an announcement tells all students to go to their dormitories. Harry and Ron manage to hide and overhear a staff discussion revealing that Ginny has apparently been kidnapped and taken to the Chamber. After the staff pressure Lockhart to go after the monster, Harry and Ron go to his room to update him with their news and find him preparing to flee. After they force him to admit that his books were not true and that he is a fake, he attempts to Obliviate them but they disarm him and compel him to go with them to Myrtle's bathroom at wandpoint. Harry finds a marked tap and speaking Parselmouth then reveals a secret opening down which they all slide. On reaching a cast-off Basilisk skin, Lockhart pretends to faint and manages to grab Ron's wand. However, his Obliviate spell goes wrong when the wand backfires bringing down part of the roof and separating Harry from the others. Leaving Ron to try to clear a way through, Harry goes on alone to find a door which, when he speaks to it in Parseltongue, opens. Questions: (1) What was your initial thought about what was troubling Ginny when she came to sit with Harry and Ron? (2) While they are in the common room after the news of Ginny's disappearance, Ron thinks that she must have some information about the Chamber. At this point in the narrative, what would you have thought of this suggestion? What connection could you imagine between her and the Chamber? (3) Does your view of Lockhart change after reading this chapter? If so, in what way. (4) Did you expect Harry's first question to Myrtle? Do you think that he was being optimistic in hoping for more information than she actually supplied? (5) Did it seem surprising that when a simple spell such as "Obliviate" backfired with such devastating results? (6) Please feel free to additionally pose your own questions. NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 17, "The Heir of Slytherin". If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From danjerri at madisoncounty.net Mon May 3 00:12:07 2010 From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (Jerri&Dan Chase) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 19:12:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 16: The Chamber of Secrets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF90A82B641433EAAF68AC2A48291E3@JerriPC> No: HPFGUIDX 189200 > (1) What was your initial thought about what was troubling Ginny when >she came to sit with Harry and Ron? I feel pretty sure that I felt that Ginny had something important to say, but I wasn't sure what. I didn't think it was the sort of thing that Harry and Ron expected, but I didn't yet suspect Ginny of being actively involved herself. > (2) While they are in the common room after the news of Ginny's >disappearance, Ron thinks that she must have some information about >the Chamber. At this point in the narrative, what would you have >thought of this suggestion? What connection could you imagine >between her and the Chamber? I remember thinking that Ron and Harry thought that Ginny had seen something. > (3) Does your view of Lockhart change after reading this chapter? If so, > in what way. No, I had him figured out from the beginning. > (5) Did it seem surprising that when a simple spell such as "Obliviate" >backfired with such devastating results? I think that JKR set this up well. She had it planned from the very beginning of the book. I think the entire car hitting the WW and Ron's wand being broken was all designed to set up this episode. > (6) Please feel free to additionally pose your own questions. >From the first time I read this, I wondered why no one had noticed the paper in Hermonie's hand. Neither Dumbledore nor Madam Pomfrey nor anyone else, till Harry and Ron. Any explanations? Jerri ---------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2849 - Release Date: 05/02/10 06:27:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 3 22:51:29 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 22:51:29 -0000 Subject: Defending Draco was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Draco happily and voluntarily went into such service with open eyes and boasted to. His friends about being chosen. Sure you do not have to tell me that he did not realize the extent he was signing up for. Oh wait, he knew he signed up for murder and he attempted to commit murder several times. Pippin: What do we know about Draco's state of mind when he signed up? Let's look at the end of OOP. His family had just suffered a huge disgrace. His father had been sent to prison. The teacher to whom Draco once graciously offered his father's patronage had been promoted over Lucius's head to sit at Voldemort's right hand. Lastly, Draco had been beaten up, twice in the space of a week or so, by his fellow students: those same helpless little lambs you are so concerned to protect from him. Canon says that after the last attack, he resembled a giant slug stuffed into a Hogwarts uniform -- so, senseless and unrecognizable. I don't know how Draco felt, but if I'd been through all that, I think my decision making skills might have suffered a bit. And I have a mature brain, stable hormone levels and several decades of adult experience to draw on. Draco didn't have any of that. All he had was a little tidbit of information which he hoped Lord Voldemort might value. Certainly he didn't offer his services as a killer. That would be absurd. He hadn't ever even seen a natural death, much less done murder, while Voldemort already had in his service more killers than he'd ever need. But Voldemort rewarded Draco beyond his wildest dreams. As you know, it's all a sham; Voldemort is just using Draco to get back at Lucius and doesn't actually expect him to kill anyone. It's all manipulation to get Draco to march willingly to his own death. And Draco has no idea at all. Draco has been hearing, all his life, that Dumbledore's reign is ruinous. I'l bet he's even heard people say things like, someone should have "the guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore out of school for good." :) And now, Draco will get the chance to prove his worth and restore his family's fortunes. Naturally he'd be proud and happy to comply. Not with the noblest motives, to be sure, but no worse than Ron's or Harry's. The Weasley twins exposed their fellow students to accidental poisoning just to get some gold. But it really doesn't matter what the reward was supposed to be. Draco couldn't have said no unless he was ready to die on the spot and take the rest of his family with him. And why would he think that Albus Dumbledore is worth dying for? Even Albus doesn't think Draco ought to die instead of him. Now I admit that Draco is not a nice person. He's a bully, a bigot and a snob. But those aren't the things that drove him to attempt a murder. He did that because his family was threatened. Canon shows that you don't have to be a particularly evil person to kill under those circumstances--if Mollywobbles can kill to defend her family, then most anyone can. But Draco found it hard to kill, even so. He came close. But just as a failed suicide can be the desperate action of a person who does not want to die, Draco's failed murders are the desperate actions of a person who does not want to kill. I do not think the WW is so full of people who would have a hard time killing even to save themselves that such a life is worthless. While Dumbledore knew that Draco had become more dangerous than he had been before, on the absolute scale of how dangerous a Hogwarts student can be and not get thrown out, I don't think Draco was even close to the Weasley twins, much less Sirius and James. Yes, Draco was very dangerous, but not because he'd signed up with Voldemort. He was dangerous for exactly the same reasons that the other kids were dangerous: they're teenagers, poorly supervised with easy access to lethal materials of all kinds. Pippin From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Tue May 4 07:15:24 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 07:15:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 16: The Chamber of Secrets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189202 (1) What was your initial thought about what was troubling Ginny when she came to sit with Harry and Ron? (2) While they are in the common room after the news of Ginny's disappearance, Ron thinks that she must have some information about the Chamber. At this point in the narrative, what would you have thought of this suggestion? What connection could you imagine between her and the Chamber? Joey: Same answer for both questions - I thought that she had seen / heard of something fishy / eerie and was scared to talk about it. (3) Does your view of Lockhart change after reading this chapter? If so, in what way. Joey: I never thought that he would have been so disgusting so as to wipe out others' memories for selfish reasons and I despised him when he talked as though only looks matter when it comes making it to the cover page of a book. (4) Did you expect Harry's first question to Myrtle? Do you think that he was being optimistic in hoping for more information than she actually supplied? Joey: Myrtyle seemed to be glad keen to discuss her death with anyone who would lend a keen ear. So, what Harry did didn't seem optimistic. (5) Did it seem surprising that when a simple spell such as "Obliviate" backfired with such devastating results? Joey: Considering what Voldy did with Bertha's memory and how it had impacted her, I suppose "Obliviate" may not be a simple spell after all i.e. it could leave a person totally deranged for the rest of life. Lockhart was aiming to wipe off Harry's and Ron's memories *for good*, claims that memory spells are his specialty and was *pretty desparate* to escape from his current situation. So, I guess he had cast a *very powerful* spell and when he did that with Ron's broken wand, well, he paid for it. (6) Please feel free to additionally pose your own questions. Joey: My questions: 1. Did anyone feel sorry for Lockhart when he was forced at wandpoint to accompany Harry and Ron to the CoS? Or do you think Harry and Ron were right in their approach? 2. What use do you think Harry and Ron expected out of Lockhart in such a serious situation, given that both of them disliked him and had suspected his credibility since long? Don't you think he would have been more of a nuisance than a help? 3. Harry says that as their DADA teacher, Lockhart must show more responsibility. Do you concur? Or do you think teaching DADA is one while actually putting them to use in dangerous situations is another and the choice should be left to the teacher? Cheers, ~Joey, who enjoyed Geoff's questions :-) From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Tue May 4 08:26:16 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 08:26:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Manipulation was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189203 >Alla wrote: [snip] >But even if he did I thought that he still valued a life of the innocent, then I realized that he did not even bother to protect Sirius and decided that he was God and took Harry from him against Lily and James'wishes [snip] Joey: But then did he not ask Sirius to stay indoors at 12, GP and not risk going out? I'm not saying that this is a great idea of his but I'm not sure what else he could have done for Sirius though. Did he not take away Harry from Sirius so that Harry could benefit from the protection of his mother's sacrifice? He could have consulted Sirius though, I admit. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 14:11:32 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 14:11:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: <20100501134928.03ofhv4hj44o0swk@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189204 Eric Oppen: > Do we have canon that documentation of Lily and James' wishes in re. > Harry's custody in the event of their deaths existed, or was known to > exist, at the time of their deaths? If it was in their house, it > might have been destroyed or lost. Alla: I was referring to Sirius telling Harry about him being named his Guardian, not just Godfather and yes, IMO it implies all legal obligations and rights coming with it. I do not need to hear about the written wishes, you know? What he says is enough for me to conclude that such wishes were expressed and Dumbledore went against them. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 17:13:48 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 17:13:48 -0000 Subject: Defending Draco was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189205 Lastly, Draco had been beaten up, twice in the space of a week or so, by his fellow students: those same helpless little lambs you are so concerned to protect from him. Alla: Considering the fact that two of those students almost died from Draco's hand, yes I am. Pippin: Draco has been hearing, all his life, that Dumbledore's reign is ruinous. I'l bet he's even heard people say things like, someone should have "the guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore out of school for good." :) And now, Draco will get the chance to prove his worth and restore his family's fortunes. Naturally he'd be proud and happy to comply. Not with the noblest motives, to be sure, but no worse than Ron's or Harry's. Pippin: Draco didn't have any of that. All he had was a little tidbit of information which he hoped Lord Voldemort might value. Certainly he didn't offer his services as a killer. That would be absurd. He hadn't ever even seen a natural death, much less done murder, while Voldemort already had in his service more killers than he'd ever need. Alla: He attempted to commit murder twice, not once, but twice, at least. This to me states that he was quite all right with doing that and Katie almost dead was not enough to deter them, whether he had seen death or not, IMO of course Pippin: Draco has been hearing, all his life, that Dumbledore's reign is ruinous. I'l bet he's even heard people say things like, someone should have "the guts to act decisively and throw Dumbledore out of school for good." :) And now, Draco will get the chance to prove his worth and restore his family's fortunes. Naturally he'd be proud and happy to comply. Not with the noblest motives, to be sure, but no worse than Ron's or Harry's. Alla: Right, I understand that we can bring up many reasons explaining why Draco signed up for Voldemort service and what his mindset was. And of course I am sure he was hoping Dumbledore would be thrown out ( or dead IMO ). The thing is though, you argue that Dumbledore protects those who least able to protect themselves and my thing is Draco did not ask, need or want such protection and Dumbledore decided that somebody who signed up to serve the Head of murderers and torturers gang needs protection, more worthy to protect than all other students who did not sign up to offer their services to Voldemort AND least able to protect himself. At the very least I do not understand this argument. If Draco came to Dumbledore asking for protection that would be different story, but not only Dumbledore IMO was being incredibly patronizing by forcing the protection on Draco, which he did not want to, he also by the same token withdrawn his protection from *all* other students by allowing murderer to run free and hoping that maybe eventually he can save Draco. Who will save other students FROM Draco, Pippin? Dumbledore did not give them the courtesy of warning that such danger lurks in Hogwarts, right? At least let them know about that, that Katie's almost death from strangulation may not be the last, but nope he proceeded with business as usual for Hogwarts. I think that Headmaster of the school first and foremost owes his protection to those who want his protection and patronage and not to those who plot to kill him especially if that makes him not protecting the real innocents IMO. JMO, Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 5 21:44:19 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 21:44:19 -0000 Subject: Defending Draco was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189206 > Alla: Who will save other students FROM Draco, Pippin? Pippin: Well, let's see. Katy was saved by Madame Pomfrey, Snape and the staff of St. Mungo's. Her friend Leanne tried to save her by taking the package away, but unfortunately that backfired and caused the injury in the first place. Ron was saved by Harry and Slughorn's potions kit. It's noteworthy that this was the second time that day that Ron had been poisoned. The first time was Romilda Vane's spiked candy. Who knows what Ron might have done to himself if Harry hadn't followed instructions for once and taken the situation to a teacher? Alla: Dumbledore did not give them the courtesy of warning that such danger lurks in Hogwarts, right? Pippin: Wrong. "I cannot emphasize strongly enough how dangerous the present situation is, and how much care each of us at Hogwarts must take to ensure that we remain safe. The castle's magical fortifications have been strengthened over the summer, we are protected in new and more powerful ways, but we must still guard scrupulously against carelessness on the part of any student or member of staff. I urge you, therefore, to abide by any security restrictions that your teachers might impose upon you, however irksome you might find them -- in particular, the rule that you are not to be out of bed after hours. I implore you, should you notice anything strange of suspicious *within or outside the castle* (emphasis mine), to report it to a member of staff immediately. I trust you to conduct yourselves, always, with the utmost regard for you own and others' safety." -HBP ch 8 Everyone was told that there was danger inside the castle and that staff or fellow students might, through carelessness, be the source of it. And they were also told that Dumbledore was *trusting* everyone to conduct themselves with regard to the safety of others -- meaning there was, as usual, no guarantee that they would. As for Draco not being entitled to Dumbledore's protection, he hasn't got to ask for it or think that he needs it. He has paid for it, same as the rest. Pippin From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 02:21:35 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 19:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <853166.83140.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189207 Eric Oppen: > Do we have canon that documentation of Lily and James' wishes in re. > Harry's custody in the event of their deaths existed, or was known to > exist, at the time of their deaths? If it was in their house, it > might have been destroyed or lost. Alla: I was referring to Sirius telling Harry about him being named his Guardian, not just Godfather and yes, IMO it implies all legal obligations and rights coming with it. I do not need to hear about the written wishes, you know? What he says is enough for me to conclude that such wishes were expressed and Dumbledore went against them. luirhys: I don't think Dumbledore was intentionally taking Harry away from Sirius. He is, after all, believed to be a murderer and traitor. Although, I'm a bit skewed on the details. Did DD suspect Sirius right away to be the traitor? We know he right away gave orders to Hagrid that Baby Harry be taken to Privet Drive- Hagrid met Sirius on the way, where he lent him his motorcycle. Obviously, this is before he went after Pettigrew. Probably DD's suspicions of Sirius being the traitor led him to take actions into his own hands- which is find another safe place for Harry. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 6 15:45:05 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 15:45:05 -0000 Subject: Defending Draco was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I think that Headmaster of the school first and foremost owes his protection to those who want his protection and patronage and not to those who plot to kill him especially if that makes him not protecting the real innocents IMO. > Pippin: Coming back to a point I forgot to make in my last post... There is someone in canon who thinks that's how a leader should behave. "When the Dark Lord takes over It'll be all about the kind of service he received, the level of devotion he was shown." -- Draco Malfoy, HBP ch 7 Eurgh! Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 17:42:21 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 17:42:21 -0000 Subject: Defending Draco was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189209 > > Alla: > Who will save other students FROM Draco, Pippin? > > Pippin: > > Well, let's see. > > Katy was saved by Madame Pomfrey, Snape and the staff of St. Mungo's. Her friend Leanne tried to save her by taking the package away, but unfortunately that backfired and caused the injury in the first place. > > Ron was saved by Harry and Slughorn's potions kit. It's noteworthy that this was the second time that day that Ron had been poisoned. The first time was Romilda Vane's spiked candy. Who knows what Ron might have done to himself if Harry hadn't followed instructions for once and taken the situation to a teacher? Alla: Um, yes, my point that it is should not have come to that point. As soon as Dumbledore knew what Draco was up to, he should have been arrested him and took him out of Hogwarts, period. IMO of course. > > Alla: > Dumbledore did not give them the courtesy of warning that such danger lurks in Hogwarts, right? > > Pippin: > Wrong. > > Everyone was told that there was danger inside the castle and that staff or fellow students might, through carelessness, be the source of it. And they were also told that Dumbledore was *trusting* everyone to conduct themselves with regard to the safety of others -- meaning there was, as usual, no guarantee that they would. Alla: And where is the name of Draco Malfoy in this quote? Dumbledore talks about non specific danger every year, does he not? I meant specific danger and specific murderer to be, yes, I know we would have had no story, if such warning was given, that does not make Dumbledore's behavior any better to me though. Pippin: > As for Draco not being entitled to Dumbledore's protection, he hasn't got to ask for it or think that he needs it. He has paid for it, same as the rest. Alla: We just disagree, I think Draco forfeit it when he signed up for Voldemort's service and needed to do some serious begging to get it back. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 6 18:34:31 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 18:34:31 -0000 Subject: Defending Draco was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189210 Alla: > And where is the name of Draco Malfoy in this quote? Dumbledore talks about non specific danger every year, does he not? I meant specific danger and specific murderer to be, yes, I know we would have had no story, if such warning was given, that does not make Dumbledore's behavior any better to me though. Pippin: Sorry, I don't get this. Katy was Imperius'ed by Rosmerta and Ron was given mead that had been poisoned by Rosmerta, carelessly vetted by Filch, and offered by Slughorn. Knowing about Draco wouldn't have helped them at all. Only the generalized warning, had it been obeyed, might have worked. But Leanne ignored or forgot that she was supposed to notify a member of staff if she noticed anything suspicious, and Filch evidently thought it would be irksome and unnecessary to inspect parcels ordered by trusted members of staff. > > Pippin: > > As for Draco not being entitled to Dumbledore's protection, he hasn't got to ask for it or think that he needs it. He has paid for it, same as the rest. > > Alla: > > We just disagree, I think Draco forfeit it when he signed up for Voldemort's service and needed to do some serious begging to get it back. PIppin: Draco was underage; he couldn't even go to Hogsmeade without permission. I hardly think his promises to Voldemort were valid or binding. Anyway, I can't see the point of making it difficult for Death Eaters to defect. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat May 8 17:56:11 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 8 May 2010 17:56:11 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/9/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1273341371.536.56904.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189211 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 9, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 9 16:59:42 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 9 May 2010 16:59:42 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/9/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1273424382.10.56608.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189212 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 9, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 22:27:07 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 22:27:07 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189213 Alla: > > I was referring to Sirius telling Harry about him being named his Guardian, not just Godfather and yes, IMO it implies all legal obligations and rights coming with it. I do not need to hear about the written wishes, you know? What he says is enough for me to conclude that such wishes were expressed and Dumbledore went against them. > > JMO, > > Alla > Carol responds: He knew that only the Secret Keeper could have betrayed the Potters to Voldemort, and he thought he knew that Sirius was the SK. Under the circumstances, it's hardly surprising that he went against the Potters wishes to let their (seeming) betrayer raise their son even without the blood protection. Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 02:01:00 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 02:01:00 -0000 Subject: Defending Draco was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189214 > Alla: > > And where is the name of Draco Malfoy in this quote? > Pippin: > Sorry, I don't get this. Katy was Imperius'ed by Rosmerta and Ron was given mead that had been poisoned by Rosmerta, carelessly vetted by Filch, and offered by Slughorn. Knowing about Draco wouldn't have helped them at all. Only the generalized warning, had it been obeyed, might have worked. Alla: You do not get that Rosmerta did not do all of that off her own free will and watching for the real villain may have prevented him (or his co conspirators, I am still not sure) victimizing her as well? I really do not know what else to add then, sorry. Alla: > But Leanne ignored or forgot that she was supposed to notify a member of staff if she noticed anything suspicious, and Filch evidently thought it would be irksome and unnecessary to inspect parcels ordered by trusted members of staff. Alla: So are you saying that innnocents are to blame for their memory lapse that Dumbledore's regular warnings about very very general danger should be actually paid attention more than Draco Malfoy should be blamed for attempted murders of such innocents or am I misunderstanding you? I think JKR actually summarises very well why students are not paying much attention to them in PS/SS when Dumbledore says those three words which still make no sense to me. When Headmaster pulls crap like this, he is IMO the only one to blame when students do not take him seriously when time comes and they have to take seriously. However, while of course general warnings are better than no warnings, none of it in my mind excuses the failure to warn kids about Draco Malfoy, whether general warnings are given or not. And nothing IMO excuses the deliberate failure to take him out in order not to endanger anybody else. > Pippin: > > Anyway, I can't see the point of making it difficult for Death Eaters to defect. Alla: Me neither, I however can't see the point of thinking about Death Eaters possible defection more than protecting those who did not try to become DE in the first place. JMO, Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 10 17:05:34 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:05:34 -0000 Subject: Defending Draco was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189215 > Alla: > > You do not get that Rosmerta did not do all of that off her own free will and watching for the real villain may have prevented him (or his co conspirators, I am still not sure) victimizing her as well? I really do not know what else to add then, sorry. > Pippin: DD stationed Order members to supplement the Aurors in Hogsmeade, watching for anything suspicious. Whoever did it managed to elude them, and did such a good job on Rosmerta that her enchantment wasn't detected, even by Dumbledore himself. It's most unlikely to have been Draco, who shows no sign of any talent with that curse, or anyone known to be associated with the DE's. So again, if the aurors or the Order members knew that Draco had been assigned to kill Dumbledore, it would not have protected Rosmerta. Everyone already knows, long before Dumbledore gives his speech, that there is a murderer on the loose and that there are at least two people at Hogwarts that he wants dead. They know that his agents have been able to infiltrate Hogwarts and the Ministry of Magic undetected and can make even family members and close friends do horrible things to one another without being able to stop themselves. Assuming that Harry told Rita Skeeter all the events of GoF, they already know that a murder was committed at Hogwarts itself, by someone thought to be a trusted friend of Dumbledore, and this happened even before Voldemort returned to full power. They know, in other words, that they are going to be in horrible danger at Hogwarts and that there is no telling who Voldemort's agents might be. Getting rid of Draco is not going to change any of that. Any sense of security it gave them would be false, hardly more effective than sending Hagrid to Azkaban or putting Stan Shunpike in jail. It's pure Yes, Minister, IMO: Something should have been done, arresting Draco is something, and therefore Dumbledore should have done it. If people didn't take Dumbledore's warnings seriously enough when he spoke of Voldemort by name, they certainly would not take him seriously if he warned them against an underage wizard with nothing worse against him than being a DE's son and breaking Harry Potter's nose. Yes, Draco was foolish to try to become a Death Eater. But he is not less innocent or deserving of protection than the others because he is more foolish about Voldemort. Nor did Draco have any way to know what being a killer would really mean. In that sense he is like Harry, who thought that Sirius deserved to die and didn't know until he came face to face with him that he would be unable to kill him even so. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 15 12:48:19 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 12:48:19 -0000 Subject: Snape as Headmaster In-Reply-To: <20100413234049.rsr8xbhh8g8cs48g@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189216 Eric Oppen wrote: > > It has occurred to me that Snape, during his tenure as Headmaster of > Hogwarts, was not the person really in control of the school. With > the Carrows right there in Dark Arts and "Muggle Studies," they could > have served the same purpose as "political officers" in the armed > forces of the former Warsaw Pact countries. Potioncat: Not in control in the way Dumbledore had been. He was the appointed Headmaster by the board and LV, but certainly the Carrows were watching him. LV had been keeping a close eye on Snape, using Wormtail as a spy during the summer. We know Snape's primary duty (from DD) was to limit the damage the Carrows would cause. In some cases we can only guess at how he managed that; or how much worse it might have been without him there. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 15 13:27:41 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 13:27:41 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 11, The Duelling Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189217 > > Discussion Questions: > 1. How convincing did you find the evidence presented by the Trio of Draco's possibly being the "Heir of Slytherin"? (Colin was victimized because Draco was angry about losing, Lucius must have opened the Chamber in the past, Draco planned to stay for the holidays, etc.) Potioncat; I was right there with them--except I didn't think it could be a student. I wondered if Lucius was somehow involved. > > 2. Goyle's Swelling Solution, when splashed about the class, caused various students to experience swelling. Does Goyle possess hitherto unsuspected talents for Potionmaking? Potioncat: Although Ron and Harry think of Crabbe and Goyle as stupid, I'm not sure that's been confirmed at this point. We often see Neville messing up in potions, but I can think of only one time we're told one of the Duo made a serious mistake. Later Crabbe-or-Goyle will be able to cast Crucio and Fiendfire---so there must be some magical ability there. Now, their judgment and moral sense are nothing to write home about. > > 3. What is your opinion of Snape's handling of the incident Harry caused in his class? Potioncat: I'm pleased to link arms with Alla and Carol in support of Snape. But I was a little surprised that Harry got away with it in the first place, or that Snape wasn't more aggressive in finding the culprit. > > 4. Why do you think Draco and "some Slytherins" cheered Snape's success in disarming Lockhart? Potioncat: I don't think "some Slytherins" was to indicate that not 'all Slytherins" were cheering him, but rather that Harry saw some Slytherins cheering. I'm surprised more students weren't cheering. I don't have the book with me, but didn't both Harry and Ron say something positive about Snape's victory? > > 5. With the entire series in hand ? why do you think Snape arranged to pair Harry and Draco to practice in the Dueling Club? Has your opinion changed since the first time you read the scene? What do you think Snape whispered in Draco's ear? Potioncat: Snape probably wanted to give Draco an opportunity to face Harry in a sanctioned manner. I'm still not sure if the Serpensortia was planned as a test, or an unintended outcome. > > 6. What did you make of the COS revelations (its association with Slytherin and Dark Wizards) about this talent, before we learned if the soul bit in DH? Potioncat: I didn't think Harry was a Dark Wizard. I expected to learn later that it was a neutral ability with a bad reputation. > > 7. In this chapter various characters react to this revelation. Harry fears he is a descendant of Slytherin. Ernie and other Hufflepuffs discuss this as Harry eavesdrops. What do you make of these opinions? What does it show us about Wizard society? Is it trying to tell us anything in particular about people/life? Potioncat: I thought Ernie made a good case against Harry--and I've always said he would be an excellent member of HPfGU. But it is a good example of how people see what they want to see and ignore things that contradict their ideas. > > 8. The Dueling Club meeting is one of my very favorite scenes in the movies, primarily because I adore the performances of Rickman as Snape and Branagh as Lockhart in this scene and how they bring the characters to life in it just as I had imagined them. Is there any point to Rowling's juxtaposition of these characters in this scene aside from (undeniable) comic effect? Potioncat: I love this question. It's one the places where I would like to know the author's intention. It could have been simply the best way to reveal Harry as a Parselmouth? I've read that both Lockhart and Snape are based on real people that JKR didn't get along with, so maybe it was her way of dealing with them. I wonder how much of the Snape arc mirrors real life. (but no, I don't think her chemistry teacher was in love with her mother.) If nothing else, JKR is setting the pattern for the DADA-teacher-wanna-be-Snape and the ongoing conflict between him and any DADA teacher. Thanks Zara, for the discussion, sorry I couldn't join it sooner. > From bart at moosewise.com Sat May 15 17:49:50 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 13:49:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as Headmaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BEEDEBE.4020004@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189218 On 5/15/2010 8:48 AM, potioncat wrote: > We know Snape's primary duty (from DD) was to limit the damage the > Carrows would cause. In some cases we can only guess at how he managed > that; or how much worse it might have been without him there. Bart: Of course, reports of his giving rebel students detentions with Hagrid gives us a clue. Bart From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat May 15 17:58:35 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 15 May 2010 17:58:35 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/16/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1273946315.859.41964.m13@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189219 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 16, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 16 17:02:43 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 16 May 2010 17:02:43 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/16/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1274029363.134.73380.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189220 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 16, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon May 17 15:36:27 2010 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 15:36:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189221 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > 6. What did you think about Hermione being a victim? Was it a clue for you that the monster target Muggleborns? Was Hermione rash in her actions and put herself at risk? No, I don't think so. The Basilisk could have been everywhere, it was bad luck, that it was in the library. She could have told somebody about hr suspicion, and it was typically Hermione, that she went to the library first, but I don't think it was particularly rash or dangerous. In contrast, at least she managed to safe herself and Penelope Clearwater by using the mirror. Colin and Justin were saved by pure luck and coincidence, Hermione used her brain to save herself and another student. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 17 21:23:09 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 21:23:09 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189222 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > No, I don't think so. The Basilisk could have been everywhere, it was bad luck, that it was in the library. She could have told somebody about hr suspicion, and it was typically Hermione, that she went to the library first, but I don't think it was particularly rash or dangerous. In contrast, at least she managed to safe herself and Penelope Clearwater by using the mirror. Colin and Justin were saved by pure luck and coincidence, Hermione used her brain to save herself and another student. Pippin: I don't think anyone was saved by luck or coincidence. Riddle knew that if anyone was killed the school would be closed and the diary would be useless. Since Riddle's goal was to entice Harry to discover and enter the chamber, it would have been counterproductive to kill Hermione, or to take the slip of paper with its clue from her hand. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 17 22:50:56 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:50:56 -0000 Subject: Snape as Headmaster In-Reply-To: <4BEEDEBE.4020004@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189223 . > Bart: > Of course, reports of his giving rebel students detentions with Hagrid > gives us a clue. > Potioncat: Less obvious, I think, is Snape's comment to McGonagall about it being her night to patrol the halls. Makes me think that HM Snape assigned Heads of House to patrol the halls at night to catch wayfaring students. If they caught any they would of course report them to the Carrows. Big if, you know? From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 18 01:37:36 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 01:37:36 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: COS 14, Cornelius Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189224 > Pippin: > I don't think anyone was saved by luck or coincidence. Riddle knew that if anyone was killed the school would be closed and the diary would be useless. Since Riddle's goal was to entice Harry to discover and enter the chamber, it would have been counterproductive to kill Hermione, or to take the slip of paper with its clue from her hand. Potioncat: I don't think so. When Harry finally reaches the Chamber of Secrets Diary!Tom is pretty clear that his purpose was to kill Muggle borns. However, after learning about Harry Potter, Diary!Tom determined to meet him. He stopped attacking Muggleborns so that that he would be able to concentrate on Harry and for that he needed the school open. From andr820907 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 17:46:31 2010 From: andr820907 at yahoo.com (Nicole A) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 17:46:31 -0000 Subject: Teen Pregnancy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189225 How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the wizarding world? Nicole From bart at moosewise.com Wed May 19 23:56:27 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 19:56:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF47AAB.1010802@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189226 On 5/19/2010 1:46 PM, Nicole A wrote: > How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the > wizarding world? > Bart: I have mentioned before my belief that teenagers in the WW don't have sex. In fact, considering the population problems in the WW (notably Hogwarts being apparently designed for far more students than it has), one must conclude that there isn't a lot of sex in the WW, period. In some RW occult systems, it is thought that the "energy channels" used for magic are the same as those used for sex, so that sex takes away from one's magic ability and vice versa; consider the chastity requirement of the Roman Catholic priesthood. Bart Bart From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Thu May 20 00:03:21 2010 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (gav_fiji) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 00:03:21 -0000 Subject: Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189227 > Nicole asked: > How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the > wizarding world? Goddlefrood responds: This could be a tricky one to keep on topic and tied to canon, but speculation can certainly be made and here's mine: The unwritten chapter of Chamber of Secrets was originally to have been entitled: 'Moaning Myrtle's Shame'. Tom dealt with this shame - doubly shameful in his case - by setting the basilisk loose in the castle to take care of the problem. A drastic solution perhaps, however the wizarding world is not a tolerant place when it comes to teen pregnancy. From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 00:34:35 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 17:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <234375.61328.qm@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189228 Nicole: How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the wizarding world? luirhys: Remember that in the WW, children come of age at 17, so for me WW are more tolerant of young mothers. Or are you asking if there was a pregnant student (before graduating)? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 01:25:14 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 01:25:14 -0000 Subject: Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189229 "Nicole A" wrote: > > How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the > wizarding world? Potioncat: Pretty much the same way the RW did at that time. We do know JKR chose not to deal with that particular issue in this series. Can you imagine, pregnat witches?--oh my! The Religious Right would have had a field day. I don't agree with Bart that sex isn't happening. I'm sure the Malfoys have had sex more than once, and I'm very sure Mollycoddles and Arthur have had sex more than 7 times. In fact, they may have come very close to a teen pregnancy themselves. I'd say the population was controlled by JKR herself--and at that she created a lot more characters than she needed. As for Goddlefrood's post--it actually took me a moment to get it. Good one. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 01:28:58 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 01:28:58 -0000 Subject: Protecting Students Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189230 Hogwarts, at the best of times, is a dangerous place. In the years we saw it--during Harry's term and in flashbacks-- there have been extra dangers. Who do you think did a better job of protecting students--Headmaster Dumbledore or Headmaster Snape? or overall in general Professor Dumbledore or Professor Snape? Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 02:57:40 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 02:57:40 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189231 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin You've read the books. You've seen the movies. So here is a very brief summary. Harry, Ron and Lockhart find themselves in a dark tunnel. Lockhart reveals the secrets of his success and attempts to Obliviate the boys. The spell not only backfires, but causes the tunnel to collapse. Harry goes on to the Chamber of Secrets. He meets Tom Riddle who reveals both Ginny's secrets and his own. Harry defends Dumbledore. Fawkes and the Sorting Hat appear. Fawkes blinds the Basilisk. Harry kills the monster with the Sword in the Hat. However he is poisoned by the Basilisk. Fawkes cures him, and Harry destroys Diary Riddle with a fang from the monster. Fawkes carries Harry, Ron, Ginny and Lockhart out of the tunnel. Questions: The first two questions are based on this quote: "I suppose the real reason Ginny Weasley is like this, is because she opened her heart and spilled all her secrets to an invisible stranger." 1. How is the magical diary in CoS like a modern Muggle device that young (and not so young) use? Do you think this was intended as a warning? 2. How does Riddle's comment fit with the theme of secret keeping we see throughout the Harry Potter series? 3. Riddle says he grew stronger on the diet of deepest fears and darkest secrets. What dark creature does this recall? Is this also the nature of a Horcrux? Did the locket in DH do the same thing? 4. How did Ginny hide her feather-covered, paint-splattered robes? Did House Elves clean them without telling anyone? 5. When the Basilisk appears, Fawkes flew off Harry's shoulder. Harry wanted to cry, "Don't leave me!" Compare this to Harry's experience in DH when he goes to face Voldemort in the forest. 6. Several times Riddle's expression is described as "hungry." Young Severus's expression was described the same way in DH. What do you make of this? 7. Riddle comments on how similar he and Harry are. We can make several comparisons: Harry and Tom; Severus and Tom; Severus and Harry. What is JKR up to with this Trio? 8. What questions do you have? I'd like to thank Alla for her patience and assistance and for keeping the discussions going. Potioncat NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 18, "Dobby's reward". If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 20 03:01:05 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 03:01:05 -0000 Subject: Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189232 > "Nicole A" wrote: > > > > How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the > > wizarding world? > > > Potioncat: > Pretty much the same way the RW did at that time. We do know JKR chose not to deal with that particular issue in this series. Can you imagine, pregnat witches?--oh my! The Religious Right would have had a field day. Pippin: Technically, there is a pregnant teen in canon. Merope, according to canon, was eighteen when she went off with Riddle Sr and had her baby a year after that. We know she sought help from Muggles rather than wizards, which leads me to conclude that the WW deals with this issue same the way it deals with any other unpleasant aspect of life in the WW -- by pretending it doesn't exist. Pippin From technomad at intergate.com Thu May 20 04:06:17 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 23:06:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100519230617.21uzb603a8o0ogss@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189233 Quoting Nicole A : > How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the > wizarding world? > > Nicole "You have failed me for the last time/outlived your usefulness! AVADA KEDAVRA!" ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From sweenlit at gmail.com Thu May 20 04:59:36 2010 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 21:59:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <20100519230617.21uzb603a8o0ogss@webmail.intergate.com> References: <20100519230617.21uzb603a8o0ogss@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189234 I've thought for a long time that there is a possibility that Molly was pregnant before leaving Hogwarts. I haven't checked the print or online resources and realize I could be wrong, but I've just had that recurring thought for a long time. From Merope's actions when her husband left and she was pregnant, she doesn't seem to have gotten much help from either magical or muggle sources, although she does seem to rely more on the muggle sources when it's down to the end. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 20 11:32:43 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:32:43 -0000 Subject: Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189235 > > Pippin: > Technically, there is a pregnant teen in canon. Merope, according to canon, was eighteen when she went off with Riddle Sr and had her baby a year after that. We know she sought help from Muggles rather than wizards, which leads me to conclude that the WW deals with this issue same the way it deals with any other unpleasant aspect of life in the WW -- by pretending it doesn't exist. Potioncat: Technically, yes. But Merope was an adult teen and married. So her pregnancy wasn't a reason for public scorn. It was also 1926, when resources for problem pregnancies were limited. Her own inner resources were limited too. It's unlikely she had much experience with either the WW or the Muggle world. Her father's attitude about Muggles is all she ever knew. She may have felt she had to leave the WW behind when she married a Muggle. From technomad at intergate.com Thu May 20 16:16:15 2010 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:16:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: <20100519230617.21uzb603a8o0ogss@webmail.intergate.com> Message-ID: <20100520111615.8sinfd3xsoco00og@webmail.intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189236 Quoting Lynda Cordova : > I've thought for a long time that there is a possibility that Molly was > pregnant before leaving Hogwarts. I haven't checked the print or online > resources and realize I could be wrong, but I've just had that recurring > thought for a long time. From Merope's actions when her husband left and > she was pregnant, she doesn't seem to have gotten much help from either > magical or muggle sources, although she does seem to rely more on the muggle > sources when it's down to the end. Merope might not have known how to access magical-world help. It wasn't like she'd exactly been encouraged to get out into the wide magical world and see what was available, now was it? And she might have been afraid of the magical world's authorities, possibly with reason. If she went to, say, St. Mungo's, they'd (not unreasonably) want to know who the father was, and her little venture into potion-brewing might have landed her in very hot water. As I've said before on this list, I tend to see her treatment of Tom Riddle, Sr. as not far from out-and-out rape and kidnapping. I pity Merope deeply, but if I were in charge of her, as I've said before, I'd want to make very sure that she couldn't misuse her magic to abuse another Muggle. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From no.limberger at gmail.com Thu May 20 17:04:00 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 10:04:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teen Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189237 >Nicole wrote: >How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the >wizarding world? No.Limberger responds: This is a difficult question. Given that the series of books was intended for children, JKR probably had no intention of writing or suggesting sexual encounters within them. One thing that I believe we can safely assume is that, yes, wizards & witches do engage in sex since they have children. How often they engage would probably be no different from any other muggle couple. As for the possibility of teen pregnancies, I'd have to say that the possibility exists; but as someone else pointed out, it may be something that is simply not discussed. Given the environment at Hogwarts, I don't think it would be necessarily easy for the students to attempt it there. Harry, Ron & Hermione, for example, never ran into any other students walking the halls at night, with the exception of Malfoy in the first book, but he was looking for them and wanted to get them into trouble. (However, I believe that that was Harry, Ron & Neville.) I doubt that girls would permit a boy to enter one of their dormitories and it's probably unlikely that the boys would do the same by letting a girl enter their dormitory area. Yeah, a perspective couple may be able to go off to some lesser-used part of the castle, but given the ghosts floating around, the paintings, Filch & his cat, students, professors, etc. who are there, I doubt that any potential couple would feel sufficiently safe to do anything there. There's Hogsmead, but then you're talking about renting a room for a few hours since student outings there are never overnight. For holidays & summer breaks, students are likely going to be with families, though it's not clear who Riddle spent summers & holidays with given that he was an orphan. Thus, from how JKR wrote the books, it would appear that the opportunity for teens to get pregnant in the first place may be rather low. If one did, it would probably be handled by one of many possible ways similar to how muggles handle teen pregnancies in the real world; and, those ways would depend on family circumstances, the circumstances behind the pregnancy, etc. I doubt that there would be one, single way that all teen pregnancies would be handled given that there's no one single way that they're handled by muggles. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no Limburger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From no.limberger at gmail.com Thu May 20 17:22:07 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 10:22:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Protecting Students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189238 >Potioncat wrote: >Hogwarts, at the best of times, is a dangerous place. In the years we saw it--during >Harry's term and in flashbacks-- there have been extra dangers. Who do you think did >a better job of protecting students--Headmaster Dumbledore or Headmaster Snape? >or overall in general Professor Dumbledore or Professor Snape? No.Limberger responds: Magic can be dangerous. Magical beasts can be dangerous. Having a bunch of students trying out various magical spells for the first time certainly has the potential for being dangerous. Then there's quidditch, which is clearly a dangerous sport. This is acknowledged by the fact that there's an infirmary at Hogwarts. Thus, whoever is the headmaster at Hogwarts has a huge job of keeping students & staff safe from a variety of established dangers. With a dark wizard out to harm others, that only makes it even more dangerous. Certainly Dumbledore did a stellar job, imho, of trying to keep the staff & students safe. He was assisted by the rest of the staff, including Snape. Between these two, each did what was necessary to keep everyone as safe as possible; not just at Hogwarts, but with the WW at large. If I were to choose between Dumbledore & Snape, I'd lean more towards Dumbledore since he was headmaster much longer, had many more years of experience with Voldemort than Snape and had other experiences that Snape never had. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 21 15:20:51 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 15:20:51 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 12, The Polyjuice Potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189239 > Jeanine > How likely did you think it was that Madam Pomfrey would not ask "too many > questions" when a student turns up having been transformed into an animal? Would > she not at least have approached Minerva McGonagall who was the expert in > transformation? The only other way we're told of, to transform someone, is > Polyjuice Potion. This involves restricted ingredients. Wouldn't it be Madam > Pomfrey's duty to follow this up? Potioncat: Thanks for the discussion! Madam Pomfrey is a puzzle--she seems a cross between a school nurse and the matron at a boarding school. (Geoff, is that the right word?) She isn't a Healer--I can't remember if she's called a Mediwitch or if that is fanfic. We have no way of knowing if a Healer ever comes to see the patients on the ward. Certainly it hasn't happened when Harry is there. We do know that Snape prepared certain potions for her and that he wast he one who treated the injuries caused by Dark Magic. Would she keep a secret? Would she avoid asking questions? It seems the cultural norm for the WW, doesn't it? And I think she would. If anyone here has reached the stage in life where your teenaged adult children have gone to the doctor, you know how tight lipped the medical profession can be on issues of privacy. I wasn't even allowed to make the phone call to make the appointment at one office. (They were quick to take my check though.) But I think she would keep mum just so students would come when they had a problem. Knowing she would take care of them, and not get them in trouble would be important. But we don't know if Hermione ever told her about the potion, do we? Or if Hermione ever told her about the curse on the parchment that scarred whats-her-name. Knowing the cause is half the cure. From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 18:52:40 2010 From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (poohmeg20) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 18:52:40 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189240 > Questions: > > The first two questions are based on this quote: > > "I suppose the real reason Ginny Weasley is like this, is because she opened her > heart and spilled all her secrets to an invisible stranger." > > > > 1. How is the magical diary in CoS like a modern Muggle device that young > (and not so young) use? Do you think this was intended as a warning? > Megan: That is a good point - at the time the book originally was published, online interactions tended to be more in the form of these types of forums or chat rooms, which lent themselves more to the type of semi-anonymous interpersonal exchange that would be analagous to the diary. The current Facebook and Twitter formats are more like generally broadcasting to a wide audience that includes known and unknown individuals than individually communicating with an unknown person. It would be interesting to see if it would be presented differently now. > 2. How does Riddle's comment fit with the theme of secret keeping we see > throughout the Harry Potter series? > Megan: I had never looked at it that way, but in that light, it certainly seems consistent with both sides' encouragement of secrecy to a certain extent. > 3. Riddle says he grew stronger on the diet of deepest fears and darkest > secrets. What dark creature does this recall? Is this also the nature of a > Horcrux? Did the locket in DH do the same thing? > Megan: That certainly did make him seem more devil-like - I remember thinking that when I first read this chapter and wondering if the story was going to have more Christian themes. Anything made by the devil is an extension of his evil, so following that line of thinking, the horcruxes would respond the same way. > 4. How did Ginny hide her feather-covered, paint-splattered robes? Did > House Elves clean them without telling anyone? > Megan: I never thought of that - good suggestion! > 5. When the Basilisk appears, Fawkes flew off Harry's shoulder. Harry > wanted to cry, "Don't leave me!" Compare this to Harry's experience in DH when > he goes to face Voldemort in the forest. > Megan: There is a big difference between being twelve and facing this kind of battle for the first time, and being seventeen and having gone through so much growth, learning, and experience. I think this is an excellent illustration of that. > 6. Several times Riddle's expression is described as "hungry." Young > Severus's expression was described the same way in DH. What do you make of this? > Megan: I think they both were very jealous of those around them for their own reasons - up to a point, I think they both would have given quite a bit to be feared by those who tormented them, which drove a hunger-like desire for power. Obviously the choices they made and the circumstances of their lives differed, but both came from that same motivation. > 7. Riddle comments on how similar he and Harry are. We can make several > comparisons: Harry and Tom; Severus and Tom; Severus and Harry. What is JKR up > to with this Trio? > Megan: I think like I started to get into in the previous answer, the big theme of the series is choices - and the three of them made different ones. They all were up against some serious odds early on in their lives, all were offered life-changing opportunities by Dumbledore - but they took those opportunities in totally different directions. > 8. What questions do you have? > Megan: I believe this came up in earlier discussions in this forum, or perhaps I read it elsewhere - but why do you think that Riddle wasn't wearing the ring? From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat May 22 17:56:28 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 22 May 2010 17:56:28 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/23/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1274550988.16.47299.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189241 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 23, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 05:33:13 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 05:33:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189242 > Potioncat's Chapter question: > 7. Riddle comments on how similar he and Harry are. We can make > several comparisons: Harry and Tom; Severus and Tom; Severus and > Harry. What is JKR up to with this Trio? Mike: I'll try not to go into too deep of a discussion. ;) I think there is a lot to compare between Tom and Harry, but mostly contrast between Seve and either of the other two. Tom and Harry: both raised by muggles outside of the WW; both given extrordinary powers, Tom from his heritage, Harry from his heritage and from Tom; both involved in secret societies and targeted by the MoM in their time; both named in the same apocalyptical prophecy; and just for good measure, both had arogant dads; oh yeah, they both carried a piece of the same soul inside of them. Seve, not in the same league as either of them. He had a witch mother to raise him, he worked to become powerful, he was in a secret society but not really a prime target of the MoM. As to the rest of the things Tom and Harry had in common, Seve was in the ballpark but only barely. He heard the prophecy and played a big part in its fulfillment, but it wasn't about him. He had a jerk for a dad, but he probably wasn't arrogant and he certainly wasn't rich. Soul bit? Nope, not close. I think Seve was truly a unique character which was what made him so controversial. Seve was a gift from JKR, I can't think of any other character in literature that you could say he was modeled after. > Megan added her question: > > I believe this came up in earlier discussions in this forum, or > perhaps I read it elsewhere - but why do you think that Riddle > wasn't wearing the ring? Mike: I don't remember this question coming up here before, so good one Megan! IMO, this Tom memory was modeled after the Tom that had just framed Hagrid for opening the Chamber. It was here that he realized that opening the Chamber again, after killing Myrtle and framing Hagrid would not only exonerate Hagrid, it would probably close the school. Tom didn't want either of those to happen. So he made this memory to capture his version - his lie - of what happened. So why wasn't he wearing the ring? Because he hadn't yet stolen it from his uncle and killed his father when he made the memory. And it was after he killed his father that he made his first horcrux and put it inside the diary, which of course gave the diary those extra features that Ginny found so enticing. This also brings up another point. Dumbledore said that Tom valued the diary because it was proof that he was the heir of Slytherin. I disagree, the diary was Tom's lie about who opened the Chamber. It showed Hagrid as the guy that caught the blame. Therefore, the diary only became proof that Tom was the heir of Slytherin *after* he put the Horcrux in it and it became interactive. Tom didn't put the Horcrux in the diary because the diary was proof, the diary became proof after the Horcrux was put in. I think DD reversed his logic. But then, wizards have a hard time with logic. Oh, except for Snape, which was another reason why he was exceptional for a wizard and different from Harry and Tom. ~Mike From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 23 17:01:57 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 May 2010 17:01:57 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/23/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1274634117.119.50336.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189243 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 23, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 21:28:39 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 21:28:39 -0000 Subject: Snape as Headmaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189244 Bart wrote: > > Of course, reports of his giving rebel students detentions with Hagrid gives us a clue. > > > Potioncat responded: > Less obvious, I think, is Snape's comment to McGonagall about it being her night to patrol the halls. Makes me think that HM Snape assigned Heads of House to patrol the halls at night to catch wayfaring students. If they caught any they would of course report them to the Carrows. Big if, you know? > Carol notes: I think he was counting on all the long-time teachers, not just the Heads of Houses, to thwart the Carrows as they did Umbridge. And simply by retaining those teachers instead of hiring new ones, he kept the curriculum as normal as possible except fot the courses that the Carrows were teaching. If he'd been a loyal DE, or if someone like Yaxley had become headmaster, life at Hogwarts would have been much worse. Carol, coming up for air after too many editing projects at one time From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 23 21:24:41 2010 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 21:24:41 -0000 Subject: CoS Chapter 16 / Pregnant unmarried witches / CoS Chapter 17 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189245 Geoff discussed CoS Chapter 16 in : << (1) What was your initial thought about what was troubling Ginny when she came to sit with Harry and Ron? >> When she was struggling over what to tell them, I assumed she had seen some evidence about the attacks. When Percy hastened to shut her up, I assumed that she had seen some evidence that Percy was involved in the attacks, and he knew it. << (3) Does your view of Lockhart change after reading this chapter? If so, in what way. >> I was shocked. I had thought he was just a vainglorious lying idiot who was just a joke, but he actually was a doer of planned, intentional evil. Joey added questions in : << 1. Did anyone feel sorry for Lockhart when he was forced at wandpoint to accompany Harry and Ron to the CoS? >> No. He deserved it. << What use do you think Harry and Ron expected out of Lockhart in such a serious situation >> I wondered that myself. << Harry says that as their DADA teacher, Lockhart must show more responsibility. Do you concur? >> It appears that the terms of employment at Hogwarts specify that the DADA teacher is responsible to fight Dark Arts in the Castle. Pippin wrote in : << But Leanne ignored or forgot that she was supposed to notify a member of staff if she noticed anything suspicious >> I assume that Leeanne thought that the danger was too imminent to have time to go all the way to Hogwarts to find a member of staff. Nicole asked in : << How do you think teen pregnancy is dealt with in the wizarding world? >> Well, as has been said, the wizarding world seems to be a very old-fashioned place. Old-fashioned like 1950s, 19th century, Renaissance, Medieval... On another tentacle, the wizarding world has long had powerful witches in government and bureaucracy, and female Aurors and co-ed Quidditch teams. Magic gives power to individuals regardless of physical strength, somewhat as technology does for us modern Muggles, except they've had magic way longer that we've had handguns and electrical appliances. They've had time to build it into their culture, leading to social division of labor based on who has more inborn magical power rather than on other inborn physical traits like sex or skin color. Also leading to it being much easier for single people and single parents (the ones in canon are widowed) to live in a small household rather than having to be part of a large household. For a long part of the past, households produced their own food, clothing, blankets, mattresses, tables, storage jars, herbal medicines ... it took the full-time work of a lot of people with a lot of different skills to maintain a household, so households had to be large. It still takes a lot of people with a lot of different skills to maintain a household, but now we can just buy their products instead of having to live with the producers. The former fact gives me the impression that they condemn unmarried parenthood, including pregnancy, like old-fashioned Muggles. The latter fact gives me the impression that they have a good deal of unmarried parenthood and consider it rather ordinary, like modern Muggles. I can compromise the two by making up a story that they believe that common decency requires that a child have two parents, so they condemn single-parents-by-choice. I imagine they discriminate against and successfully humiliate any unmarried mother who is not such a rich and powerful witch that she can beat a crowd of average witches and wizards, and also condemn an unmarried father unless he is rich or powerful or the mother is a Muggle or far below him in social class. So they would try to prevent unmarried pregnancy by use of contraceptive spells -- maybe there are contraceptive potions in all that pumpkin juice! And deal with it when it happens by allowing a youthful marriage, forcing a wandpoint wedding, or by faking that a quick wedding to a foreigner, honeymoon, impregnation, and widowhood had occurred, or by abortion. Because I am in love with a fanfic idea that Eileen Prince (who must not have been as ugly as the HBP description of her photo suggests, or maybe she used a Beautification Potion) got pregnant from Orion Black's casual dalliance. He obviously couldn't have married her, being already married, but he scornfully refused even to acknowledge the baby and pay child support (which would have been semi- respectable for her, considering his social class). Then her parents refused to raise a parthenogenic child in their house, so she had quickly to find someone to marry. She must have been rather poor and rather ugly, that even with magic like Love Potions she could catch only a working class Muggle, not even a rich Muggle or a poverty-stricken wizard. Maybe he was a little less bad-tempered before living with a witch wife who was in love with someone else and a wizard child who scorned him. Potioncat summarized CoS Chapter 17 in : << 3. Riddle says he grew stronger on the diet of deepest fears and darkest secrets. What dark creature does this recall? >> Dementors, of course, but the information about Dementors is inconsistent. They cause people to feel despair by draining all the hope and happiness out of the people. The hope and happiness is what they eat. So it may be only magical logic that what defeats them, a Patronus, is made out of as much happiness and hope as the spellcaster can put together. What nourishes them destroys them. "They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay and despair, they drain peace, hope, and happiness out of the air around them." I suppose the places are dark and filthy and decaying and despairing because the Dementors are there, because if they sought out already dark and filthy places of decay and despair, there would be no hope and happiness there for them to eat. Unless you were thinking of Boggarts being able to detect one's "worst fear", but the Boggart isn't nourished by the fear; it merely camouflages itself for self-defense. As for Memory!Riddle eating Ginny's soul to make itself alive, I suppose it ate all her soul, the courage and happy memories and loyalty and daydreams of Romance!Harry as well as the fears and shames. But only mentioned the fears and shames because it enjoyed them more. << Is this also the nature of a Horcrux? Did the locket in DH do the same thing? >> Umm. Maybe. The locket drew out Ron's fears to use as camouflage for self-defense (and perhaps also as camouflage for recruiting him to the Dark Side). That was more the Boggart sort of thing. But it also made each person who wore it (each hero, anyway -- no sign that Umbridge was any worse than usual) have selfish, scornful, irritable, envious, distrustful thoughts about their friends and their goal. I thought that was just Riddle's soul piece's nasty attitude being contagious. (As in the 'leakage' theory of why Harry had such a bad attitude in OoP. Personally, I think it was PTSD from the Graveyard Event.) I suppose it could also be part of the spell of protection on the locket -- causing discord among the finders of the Horcrux makes it less likely they will succeed in destroying it. But I suppose it could also be some kind of fuel for the Horcrux. << 4. How did Ginny hide her feather-covered, paint-splattered robes? Did House Elves clean them without telling anyone? >> I think the House Elves tell Dumbledore a lot, so maybe they told him about Ginny's robes. Maybe he knew that Ginny was somehow involved long before us readers did. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 23 22:12:28 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 22:12:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189246 Megan askws: > > > > I believe this came up in earlier discussions in this forum, or perhaps I read it elsewhere - but why do you think that Riddle wasn't wearing the ring? > Mike responded: > IMO, this Tom memory was modeled after the Tom that had just framed Hagrid for opening the Chamber. It was here that he realized that opening the Chamber again, after killing Myrtle and framing Hagrid would not only exonerate Hagrid, it would probably close the school. Tom didn't want either of those to happen. So he made this memory to capture his version - his lie - of what happened. > > So why wasn't he wearing the ring? Because he hadn't yet stolen it from his uncle and killed his father when he made the memory. And it was after he killed his father that he made his first horcrux and put it inside the diary, which of course gave the diary those extra features that Ginny found so enticing. Carol responds: I agree except for one small point (and I may be misunderstanding what you're saying). Riddle didn't "make" the memory. He must have removed it from his own head using the same spell that DD and Snape use when they're putting memories in the Pensieve (only this memory was in permanent storage). If the diary was meant to prove that he was the Heir of Slytherin, the Hagrid memory can't have been the only one in the diary--it was simply the one that he could use to entice Harry. I suspect that the diary also showed his opening the CoS and his killing of Moaning Myrtle. (The Hagrid memory must have been put in there to show his cleverness in escaping blame for the murder--unless Horcrux!Tom added it later specifically for Harry's benefit.) Nevertheless, the framing of Hagrid, like the opening of the CoS, must also be a real memory, not a manufactured one, considering that Riddle did win an award for services to the school and Hagrid was expelled. It's only a "lie" in the sense that Hagrid didn't open the CoS, not in the sense that he "made" the memory. (We see with Slughorn what happens when you try to alter a memory; manufacturing a realistic one would be harder still. Even Riddle, when he's planting memories in people's minds, uses real memories. The lie is that they're his memories, not Morfin's or Hokey's. My apologies if I've misunderstood you and you only meant inserting the memory in the diary rather than creating it. But, yes, both the opening of the CoS and the framing of Hagrid (not to mention the murder of Moaning Myrtle, which I suspect was also in the diary) occurred near the end of Tom's fifth year at Hogwarts, before the school closed for the summer. He didn't kill his father until a month or two later. (JKR says that it was in his sixteenth year, but she means seventeenth; he was sixteen at the time.) When he talks to Slughorn, he's wearing the ring, which means that he has killed his father but the ring is not yet a Horcrux. Whether the diary was a Horcrux or not, it had already been made using memories that predate the second, third, and fourth murders. Carol, who had to struggle with her own thoughts regarding why the Hagrid memory was in the diary at all From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Mon May 24 05:09:08 2010 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 05:09:08 -0000 Subject: CoS Chapter 16 / Pregnant unmarried witches / CoS Chapter 17 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189247 << 4. How did Ginny hide her feather-covered, paint-splattered robes? Did House Elves clean them without telling anyone? >> Catlady responded: > I think the House Elves tell Dumbledore a lot, so maybe they told him about Ginny's robes. Maybe he knew that Ginny was somehow involved long before us readers did. Joey: But then wasn't DD the one who said he wondered how the CoS was opened when Colin was Petrified? Thereafter he doesn't show any signs of him recognizing anything fishy regarding Ginny. Also, I'm not sure if House Elves knew to suspect something if they find paint stains on robes. They could assume just about anything and go on with their work (of washing clothes, in this case) about which they seem to be so very serious. I presume they would have been more concerned about ensuring that her robes were clean. In fact, your point leads me to wonder how often DD went to check if the how the House Elves of the Hogwarts kitchen were getting along. Weekly? Monthly? From what we get to see during the Trio's visits to Hogwarts kitchen in GoF, the House Elves seem to be neatly dressed and well-cared for. Yet I wonder why Winky's continued state of depression did not prompt DD to arrange for Madam Pomfrey's attention much earlier than GoF climax. Cheers, ~Joey :-) From no.limberger at gmail.com Tue May 25 14:53:06 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 07:53:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 12, The Polyjuice Potion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189248 1. Did you think the reference to the healing powers of phoenix tears would subsequently prove important? No.Limberger responds: I don't recall; it's been too long since I read it. 2. Why does Harry not confide in Dumbledore? No.Limberger responds: Teenagers & tweens often don't trust adults for fear of being punished or being viewed as being crazy for hearing voices. 3. Do you think that Harry believes he knows better than anyone else? No.Limberger responds: I'm not sure if I understand the gist of the question; but overall, I'd have to say no because he does rely on others for help. 4. Would Harry have got anywhere in his attempt to hoodwink Malfoy without Hermione's help, knowledge and hard work? No.Limberger responds: Probably not. Hermione is very intelligent and Harry & Ron both often rely on it. 5. What reason did you come up with as to why, after all her efforts with the polyjuice potion, with producing the drugged cakes and obtaining the larger robes Harry and Ron would need when reincarnated as Crabbe and Goyle, Hermione apparently decided not to go with the boys? No.Limberger responds: I just assumed that something had gone wrong and she didn't want to be seen. 6. Why do you think Hogwarts students of any one house are apparently not allowed to know the password to the other houses' common rooms? No.Limberger responds: Each house, in my opinion, gives the students a sense of belonging. Each house has, for example, it's own colors and its own symbols. If the houses were separate schools, the students from each school wouldn't know the secrets of students at the other schools. Instead, they are under a common school, but maintain separate identities. This, to me, more than security, is why each house would maintain a separate password. 7. If Harry and Ron could see that the polyjuice potion was wearing off, why could not Malfoy see it too? No.Limberger responds: Malfoy may not have been paying that much attention as he wouldn't be expecting to see Crabbe & Goyle suddenly start to change into different people. 8. How likely did you think it was that Madam Pomfrey would not ask "too many questions" when a student turns up having been transformed into an animal? Would she not at least have approached Minerva McGonagall who was the expert in transformation? The only other way we're told of, to transform someone, is Polyjuice Potion. This involves restricted ingredients. Wouldn't it be Madam Pomfrey's duty to follow this up? No.Limberger responds: Madam Pomfrey appears to be a very knowledgeable school nurse. She would probably be equivalent to a nurse practitioner (NP) in the States. An NP is allowed to prescribe medications. Assuming she is very knowledgeable, she may not have felt the need to consult with McGonagall. Given that McGonagall isn't a trained medical expert, Pomfrey could very easily have decided to consult with other wizarding nurses & doctors. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From no.limberger at gmail.com Tue May 25 15:59:13 2010 From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 08:59:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189249 >1. How is the magical diary in CoS like a modern Muggle device that young >(and not so young) use? Do you think this was intended as a warning? No.Limberger responds: I had not previously viewed the magical diary as being similar to any electronic device that we have today. When this book was written, there were no social networking sites on the Internet and its usage wasn't as widespread as it is today. So, I don't believe that JKR created it to be a warning to young people regarding electronic devices or the Internet. I believe she created it for the purpose of her plot as the diary is pivotal: it contains a living piece of LV's soul that is able to gain influence over the young Ginny Weasley so that it can have her reopen the CoS. >2. How does Riddle's comment fit with the theme of secret keeping we see >throughout the Harry Potter series? No.Limberger responds: Secrets are a common aspect of everyday life. Employers often require employees to keep information confidential, for example. They're intent is to protect those, as well as the information, that is being kept secret. >3. Riddle says he grew stronger on the diet of deepest fears and darkest >secrets. What dark creature does this recall? Is this also the nature of a >Horcrux? Did the locket in DH do the same thing? No.Limberger responds: There are no living creatures that feed off the negative emotions of others. What this brings to mind is an old episode of "Star Trek" (The Original Series) in which a creature comprised of pure energy feeds off of fear and does so by possessing corporeal beings and spreading fear to other corporeal beings that it can then feed off of. I believe the episode was entitled "Wolf in the Fold". >4. How did Ginny hide her feather-covered, paint-splattered robes? Did >House Elves clean them without telling anyone? No.Limberger responds: No idea; I hadn't thought about that. >5. When the Basilisk appears, Fawkes flew off Harry's shoulder. Harry >wanted to cry, "Don't leave me!" Compare this to Harry's experience in DH when >he goes to face Voldemort in the forest. No.Limberger responds: Harry is only 12 years old and alone. The closest thing that he has to a friend or ally in this situation is Fawkes. It would only have been natural to cry out. >6. Several times Riddle's expression is described as "hungry." Young >Severus's expression was described the same way in DH. What do you make of this? No.Limberger responds: They both hungered for power to have control over their respective situations, including the people that they interact with. LV found power in part by spreading fear: the worse he seemed, the more others were inclined not to fight him and let him have his way. This also made him seem more magically powerful. Granted, he was a powerful dark wizard, but just as with Lockhart, it's also a matter of perception. >7. Riddle comments on how similar he and Harry are. We can make several >comparisons: Harry and Tom; Severus and Tom; Severus and Harry. What is JKR up >to with this Trio? No.Limberger responds: All three had something in common: each was an outcast of sorts and Harry & Tom were both orphans. In my opinion, what JKR establishes is that regardless of how bad someone's life may start, it can get much better depending upon the choices one makes. This was certainly true for her own life as she went from being flat broke to the wealthiest woman in the world. In Harry's case, he had no inclination to harm others (well, for no reason), as was the opposite case with Riddle. As for Severus, he was looking more for acceptance and a way to gain power, which Riddle as LV gave him for a time at least. -- "Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 26 03:07:05 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:07:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189250 > Mike: > > I'll try not to go into too deep of a discussion. ;) > > I think there is a lot to compare between Tom and Harry, but mostly contrast between Seve and either of the other two. potioncat: In many ways the three wizards reflect different degrees--depending on what's being measured. For example, Harry has a great deal of love (agape) and even feels compassion toward Draco and LV. Snape loves, but on a limited basis, and does not begin to develop compassion until his 30s. Tom doesn't love at all and has no compassion. But I do think Snape and Harry have a great deal in common. Both are half bloods, both are from abusive homes, both had to deal with bullies, both are deeply loyal, both seemed to be isolated to a certain degree as children. Both sneaked around Hogwarts certain they knew better than the adults about what was going on. Mke: > > Seve, not in the same league as either of them. Potioncat: I'm not sure what you mean here. In my opinion Riddle was the most magically tallented, Snape next and Harry as third. Riddle was performing intentional, wandless magic before he had any training. Snape was inventing spells while still a student. Harry had to work hard to learn spells, but had a drive to do well, and a sort of intuition that helped him excell. >Mike: > I think Seve was truly a unique character which was what made him so controversial. Seve was a gift from JKR, I can't think of any other character in literature that you could say he was modeled after. Potioncat: I have to agree. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 26 03:38:03 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:38:03 -0000 Subject: Protecting Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189251 > > No.Limberger responds: > > Certainly Dumbledore did a stellar job, imho, of trying to keep the staff &> students safe. He was assisted by the rest of the staff, including Snape. Between these two, each did what was necessary to keep everyone as safe as possible; not just at Hogwarts, but with the WW at large. If I were to choose between Dumbledore & Snape, I'd lean more towards Dumbledore since he was headmaster much longer, > had many more years of experience with Voldemort than Snape and had other experiences that Snape never had. Potioncat: I'm not sure myself. We know Snape's purpose behind becoming Headmaster was to protect students from LV and the DEs. While DD's purpose for becoming headmaster was different (I think). DD had to tolerate Umbridge just as Snape had to tolerate the Carrows--and both headmasters were limited in how much they could control in those years. Yes DD had more years of experience, although we only actually see a few, and most of those include Snape as one of his loyal agents. DD had teachers who were openly loyal to him. HM Snape had to rely on the same teachers, knowing they thought he was a traitor. So while he knew they would look out for students, he couldn't discuss any actions with them. (Then again, DD didn't discuss very much either.) We know that the DEs didn't bother students at Hogwarts, and only went after them at home (Luna, for example.) I think it was Snape who prevented the Carrows from killing students. Big deal you say? Knowing how easily LV killed members of his inner circle, I doubt the Carrows would have qualms about killing unfriendly students. And it appears those who kept their heads down may have been out of harms way. Although I can't imagine what that first year did to deserve being chained in the dungeon. Does anyone else think HM Snape may have let it slip that the boy was in the chains?--causing Michael Horner (is that right?) to go rescue him? From pamneubauer at sbcglobal.net Wed May 26 01:02:31 2010 From: pamneubauer at sbcglobal.net (Pam Neubauer) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 20:02:31 -0500 Subject: Mdm Pomfrey (Re: Chapter Discussion: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 12, The Polyjuice Potion) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189252 8. How likely did you think it was that Madam Pomfrey would not ask "too many questions" when a student turns up having been transformed into an animal? Would she not at least have approached Minerva McGonagall who was the expert in transformation? The only other way we're told of, to transform someone, is Polyjuice Potion. This involves restricted ingredients. Wouldn't it be Madam Pomfrey's duty to follow this up? Pam: In regards to not reporting Hermione, Mdm. Pomfrey's not going to heal too many students if they do not trust her, they will not trust her if they think she will tattle to the other teachers or the administration. Mdm. Pomfrey's first going to try to help the student - that's why she's there. Just like a school counselor (U.S. schools) won't go to the school administration, unless they have to due to legal reasons, if you tell them you did something you weren't supposed to - no student would ever seek help if s/he would get into trouble. I recall Harry saying that Mdm. Pomfrey "doesn't ask too many questions", but I can't remember which chapter and book right now...I think it is when Ron gets bitten by the dragon in Sorcerer's Stone. Pam From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Fri May 28 02:40:24 2010 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 02:40:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > 4. How did Ginny hide her feather-covered, paint-splattered robes? Did House Elves clean them without telling anyone? zanooda: Ginny heard a lot of household spells at home from Molly. Maybe she tried "Scourgify" and it worked :-). From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 28 03:36:32 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 03:36:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189254 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > 4. How did Ginny hide her feather-covered, paint-splattered robes? Did House Elves clean them without telling anyone? > > zanooda: > > Ginny heard a lot of household spells at home from Molly. Maybe she tried "Scourgify" and it worked :-). > Pippin: I'm sure Fred and George cleaned up many messes before Molly found out about them. But considering the chopping, mixing and accidental splattering that goes on in Potions, the inherent messiness of Herbology and CoMC(think about it), and the activities of Fred, George and Peeves, I'd guess filthy robes are nothing out of the ordinary at Hogwarts. We never hear of anyone worried that they've ruined their clothes, do we? So I guess the House Elves are pretty good stain removers. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat May 29 17:55:37 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 29 May 2010 17:55:37 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/30/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1275155737.9.81247.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189255 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 30, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 4 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 30 16:33:13 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 16:33:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chamber of Secrets Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189256 > Questions: > > The first two questions are based on this quote: > > "I suppose the real reason Ginny Weasley is like this, is because she opened her > heart and spilled all her secrets to an invisible stranger." > > > > 1. How is the magical diary in CoS like a modern Muggle device that young > (and not so young) use? Do you think this was intended as a warning? Potioncat: As I read the account in CoS--the whole process of communicating with the diary seemed exactly like IM-img or E-mail. No Limburger has suggested that this book was written before that sort of computer activity was common. I don't know. But does anyone think that a young reader now might see a simalarity between the two? > > 2. How does Riddle's comment fit with the theme of secret keeping we see throughout the Harry Potter series? Potioncat: It's been a common thread at this site about the dangers of keeping information secret. Lots of characters keep things too close. I think this is the one time we see the danger of spilling secrets. Certainly there is a danger in both extremes. > > 3. Riddle says he grew stronger on the diet of deepest fears and darkest > secrets. What dark creature does this recall? Is this also the nature of a > Horcrux? Did the locket in DH do the same thing? Potioncat: Several comments were made about Dementors, and I'd have to review the canon. But I always had the feeling that Dementors brought out the fears and dark thoughts because that's what they lived on--not that they wanted the happy thoughts--the more miserable a person was, the better Dementors liked it. > > 4. How did Ginny hide her feather-covered, paint-splattered robes? Did > House Elves clean them without telling anyone? Potioncat: I recall this being the topic of a thread in the past; one I didn't particularly follow. So when I read about Ginny's concerns about her robes this time, the question just popped up. Lots of good answers--which gave me more ideas. House Elves are loyal ot their masters, and whether or not the students are masters, it may be the House Elf nature not to rat them out. Also, their sense of logic and reasoning is very different from humans, and it may not have even crossed their minds to connect Ginny's stained robes with the events in the castle. And, I'd have to agree--House Elves probably saw lots of robes stained with disgusting ingredients and these may not have stood out at all. > > 5. When the Basilisk appears, Fawkes flew off Harry's shoulder. Harry > wanted to cry, "Don't leave me!" Compare this to Harry's experience in DH when > he goes to face Voldemort in the forest. Potioncat: Not really must to compare. The similarity between between the two events just jumped out at me. The difference is really between a young hero and the more seasoned hero. It's to be noted that while Harry wanted to call out to Fawkes, he didn't. > > 6. Several times Riddle's expression is described as "hungry." Young > Severus's expression was described the same way in DH. What do you make of this? Potioncat: Much was made of young Severus's hungry looks. Many of us saw this a needy while others gave it a more sinister slant. Riddle is most certainly hungry for power and dark deeds. > From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 30 17:02:17 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 30 May 2010 17:02:17 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/30/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1275238937.8.8843.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189257 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday May 30, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: