From carylcb at hotmail.com Sat Nov 6 02:41:56 2010 From: carylcb at hotmail.com (carylcb) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 02:41:56 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189703 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map In the aftermath of his Quidditch accident, Harry spends a lonely, sleepless weekend in the hospital wing, wondering if he's going to spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder for the Grim. Humiliated about his extreme reaction to the Dementors?even as he realizes that they raise memories of his mother's screams just before she was killed?he is relieved to get back to classes in spite of Malfoy's constant ridicule. Lupin stops Harry after class to offer condolences about his broom and they discuss why the Dementors affect Harry more than the other students. Harry begs Lupin to teach him how to fight them, the way he'd done on the train, and they agree to meet after the Christmas holidays. On the last weekend of term, Harry dejectedly settles in to occupy himself with a broom catalogue while everyone heads to Hogsmeade, but Fred and George pull him aside and present him with a magical map of Hogwarts and advice about how to sneak into the village. Making his way through the tunnel into Honeydukes' cellar, Harry catches up with Ron and Hermione and they go to the Three Broomsticks for some warm Butterbeer. Harry has to quickly hide under the table when Professors McGonagall and Flitwick come in with Hagrid and Minister for Magic Cornelius Fudge. He overhears them telling Madam Rosmerta the disturbing story of Sirius Black's betrayal of the Potters, murder of Peter Pettigrew, and unchanged status as Harry's godfather. Questions: 1. Did you think about Lupin's mention about the Whomping Willow being planted the year he arrived at Hogwarts was significant? Did you think the Whomping Willow being planted over a secret passage would become important? 2. Harry has an understandable reluctance to seek help from adults. Did you find it surprising that he readily confided in Lupin about the Dementors? 3. From the description of his "sudden motions" during his discussion with Harry, did you grow suspicious that Lupin might know more than he was letting on? 4. The "passwords" to operate the Maurauder's Map are quite complicated. How do you think Fred and George figured them out? 5. What did you think of Harry's rationalization for using the map ( he only wanted to use it go into Hogsmeade, it wasn't as though he wanted to steal anything or attack anyone and Fred and George had been using it for years without anything horrible happening ), especially after his experience with Riddle's diary and Mr. Weasley's warning to "never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain?" 6. Did you find it amusing that Ron and Harry were able to answer all of Hermione's protests about Harry being in Hogsmeade and that she agreed not to report him? 7. Were you as surprised as Harry to learn about Sirius Black's connection to the Potters? 8. Madam Rosmerta's voice is described as "alive with curiosity" and "breathless with interest." If even Harry noticed this, do you think Madam Rosmerta was flirting with Fudge to get him to tell the story? 9. How did you think Sirius Black was able to remain unaffected by the Dementors in Azkaban? Caryl Brown NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 11 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Nov 6 18:58:13 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Nov 2010 18:58:13 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/7/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1289069893.574.91903.m11@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189704 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 7, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 02:10:52 2010 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 02:10:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carylcb" wrote: > > 2. Harry has an understandable reluctance to seek help from adults. > Did you find it surprising that he readily confided in Lupin about the > Dementors? > Annemehr: Mildly surprising, yes. But I think he was greatly helped along by the fact that Lupin had already seen his reaction, so it wasn't as though Harry had to reveal a hidden weakness. He may have also seen withstanding dementors as a task, like stopping Voldemort from getting the Stone, or rescuing Ginny from the Chamber, that he *had* to try to accomplish. In PS and CoS, he also sought help from adults before going off on his own. In this case, his request for help was granted. > 4. The "passwords" to operate the Maurauder's Map are quite > complicated. How do you think Fred and George figured them out? > Annemehr: Well, the map doesn't only react to certain passwords; we saw in the scene with Snape that it can interact with people. My theory was that the map approved of Fred and George when they interacted with it, and it probably helped them along. In fact, it seems entirely possible that the passwords we know were not ones that the Marauders programmed into the map, but ones that the map itself worked out with the twins. > > 5. What did you think of Harry's rationalization for using the map > ( he only wanted to use it go into Hogsmeade, it wasn't as though he wanted > to steal anything or attack anyone and Fred and George had been using it for > years without anything horrible happening ), especially after his experience > with Riddle's diary and Mr. Weasley's warning to "never trust anything that can > think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain?" > > Annemehr: I think I figured Fred and George had vetted the map, so I wasn't so much worried that the map itself was dangerous. I thought it was more likely that Harry would get himself into trouble with it because he doesn't think things out. > > > 6. Did you find it amusing that Ron and Harry were able to answer > all of Hermione's protests about Harry being in Hogsmeade and that she agreed > not to report him? > Annemehr: Very amusing. That scene in Honeyduke's is one of my favorites, especially the way Harry sneaked up on them. Thanks for the summary and questions, Caryl! From katherinemaurer at ymail.com Sat Nov 6 15:32:45 2010 From: katherinemaurer at ymail.com (katherinemaurer at ymail.com) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 15:32:45 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189706 Hi, I'm new here and was hoping to ask some questions and speculate on Harry Potter. Barty Crouch Jr is my favourite character and as so, I have read a lot of ssk7882's fantastic posts. They did enlighten me on some things, but one main question seemed to be unanswered. Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? Further to that, what was Barty Jr's childhood like, to lead him to that decision? The most canon says about Barty's childhood was in Padfoot Returns, page 459 Sirius says, "Once the boy had died, people started feeling a bit more sympathetic towards him, and started asking how a nice young lad from a good family had gone so badly astray. The conclusion was that his father never much cared for him." That conclusion was considered a cop-out in ssk7882's message #47931 "Midnight in the Golden Wood". Then from that, ssk7882 discounts a theory and creates a few of their own to do with that subject. Their theories seemed quite vague, because the question as to why Barty Jr joined Voldemort was probably not primarily what they were trying to answer. But it is what I would like answered. Could you please help me with this. -katherinemaurer From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 05:10:19 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 05:10:19 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katherinemaurer at ..." wrote: > > Hi, I'm new here and was hoping to ask some questions and speculate on Harry Potter. > > Barty Crouch Jr is my favourite character and as so, I have read a lot of ssk7882's fantastic posts. They did enlighten me on some things, but one main question seemed to be unanswered. > > Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? Further to that, what was Barty Jr's childhood like, to lead him to that decision? > > The most canon says about Barty's childhood was in Padfoot Returns, page 459 Sirius says, "Once the boy had died, people started feeling a bit more sympathetic towards him, and started asking how a nice young lad from a good family had gone so badly astray. The conclusion was that his father never much cared for him." > > That conclusion was considered a cop-out in ssk7882's message #47931 "Midnight in the Golden Wood". Then from that, ssk7882 discounts a theory and creates a few of their own to do with that subject. Their theories seemed quite vague, because the question as to why Barty Jr joined Voldemort was probably not primarily what they were trying to answer. But it is what I would like answered. > > Could you please help me with this. Mike: I don't know if Elkins answered your particular question either, it was so long ago that I read her amazing (and amazingly long) 9-part series on the Crouches. That said, here's a link to the first post in that series: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47927 Elkin's series was written as a T-Bay (Theory Bay), that is, it was written as a ficticious conversation between herself and two other listies, expounding on various theories of each. Though filled with a lot of speculation, she would have based all of her thoughts on canon, that was/is the rule on this list. And you are quite right, this was written during the 3 year summer between GOF and OOTP. Good luck in your search. :) Mike, who doesn't necessarily agree with Elkin's positions on the Crouches, but finds them nevertheless facinating From ocegree at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 05:18:23 2010 From: ocegree at yahoo.com (Allan) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 05:18:23 -0000 Subject: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: <397260.9441.qm@web120410.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189708 Duane, Harry was wrong about Hagrid... he was wrong about Snape... He had no clue he was a Wizard... believed Sirius killled his father... screwed up with Professor Quill... thought the really good looking teacher knew what he was doing... only in the last few books does he begin to "get it right". From carylcb at hotmail.com Sun Nov 7 13:34:36 2010 From: carylcb at hotmail.com (Augusta) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 13:34:36 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189709 > Annemehr: > Snip... > In fact, it seems entirely possible that the passwords we know were not ones that the Marauders programmed into the map, but ones that the map itself worked out with the twins. Caryl: Oh, that's an excellent theory. I'd never thought of it that way. Thanks! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 15:48:25 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 15:48:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189710 > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban > Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map > 1. Did you think about Lupin's mention about the Whomping Willow being planted the year he arrived at Hogwarts was significant? Carol: I thought it was an interesting coincidence, nothing to do with Lupin himself. > Did you think the Whomping Willow being planted over a secret passage would become important? > Carol: Is the secret passage actually mentioned? (Sorry, no time to reread the chapter.) If so, I'm sure I thought it would be significant but I didn't anticipate anything like the events as they unfolded. > > 2. Harry has an understandable reluctance to seek help from adults. Did you find it surprising that he readily confided in Lupin about the Dementors? > Carol: Not given that Lupin was present when Harry passed out and that he apparently knows a spell that will drive them off. (What I find interesting is *Lupin's* reluctance to teach the spell to Harry and his confession that he's no expert with the spell. (Can Lupin even cast a full-fledged Patronus? Are there other spells or methods that also work, at which he's also inexpert? We hear him confess earlier that he's not good with potion-making, apparently true or he wouldn't need Snape's help, and here he's again expressing ineptitude. Why, unless it's true?) > > > 3. From the description of his "sudden motions" during his discussion with Harry, did you grow suspicious that Lupin might know more than he was letting on? > Carol: Absolutely. Any time a character in HP makes that sort of motion, he's concealing something. And given his anger when Harry mentions Sirius Black, that something concerns the supposed murderer. > > 4. The "passwords" to operate the Maurauder's Map are quite complicated. How do you think Fred and George figured them out? Carol: At first, I thought that, clever as the Twins are, even they could not have worked out the formula. But, later, we see that the map can somehow tell a kindred spirit from an enemy (I doubt that any teacher could use it without being told the secret, but, of course, it's particularly rude to Snape. And can you imagine McGonagall saying, "I solemn.y swear that I am up to no good"?). The map helps Harry enter the opening behind the witch's hump (as it must have helped the Twins). So I imagine it sensed that the Twins were mischief makers and helped them along as they came closer to the formula. It may even have overheard what they intended to do and asked them, "do you solemnly swear that you are up to no good?" and when they said, "Yeah! We do!" prompted them with, "Say it!" (I wonder if the spell works with "we" in place of "I"?) > 5. What did you think of Harry's rationalization for using the map ( he only wanted to use it go into Hogsmeade, it wasn't as though he wanted to steal anything or attack anyone and Fred and George had been using it for years without anything horrible happening ), especially after his experience with Riddle's diary and Mr. Weasley's warning to "never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain?" Carol: I'm pretty sure that JKR is on Harry's side here. He *only* wants to break a silly school rule, and it's not his fault that he doesn't have the signed permission form. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that the map is designed to aid mischief makers. If it isn't dark (black) magic, it's gray. Then, again, so are most of the spells that Harry uses without a qualm, especially in HBP. At any rate, as usual, any tinge of guilt or pangs of conscience he feels are quickly dissipated. Harry, in his own view and JKR's, can do no wrong. And, of course, it's necessary to the plot that he overhear, unseen, the conversation among the teachers and Rosmerta. (Come to think of it, why would they talk in the hearing of Ron and Hermione, who would be sure to pass on what they heard to Harry?) > > 6. Did you find it amusing that Ron and Harry were able to answer all of Hermione's protests about Harry being in Hogsmeade and that she agreed not to report him? > Carol: No. It's par for the course. > > 7. Were you as surprised as Harry to learn about Sirius Black's connection to the Potters? > Carol: Yes and no. We've had clues--for example, Draco's remark about revenge and Lupin's odd reaction to the mention of Black. I think I was most surprised that the supposedly wonderful James Potter was a mischief maker like the Twins. (Funny that I didn't connect him and his friends to the map. And isn't it odd that Lupin never comes into the conversation?) > > > 8. Madam Rosmerta's voice is described as "alive with curiosity" and "breathless with interest." If even Harry noticed this, do you think Madam Rosmerta was flirting with Fudge to get him to tell the story? Carol: I never thought about it, but I suppose it's just her personality. On the other hand, the narrator, seeing or rather hearing from Harry's perspective, may be attributing Harry's emotions to Rosmerta. I don't think Rosmerta *needs* to flirt. All of them--Fudge and the teachers--*want* to share what they know or think they know. They're as human as the students, and it's the topic of the year. > 9. How did you think Sirius Black was able to remain unaffected by the Dementors in Azkaban? > Carol: I didn't think he was unaffected so much as already crazy when he came in. He seems quite insane from the time we first see his photo on Muggle TV to the time he appears in the Shrieking Shack. And his wild laughter after he supposedly blew up the street confirms that picture of him. If anything, the Dementors would have made him more insane (as they did Bellatrix). Carol, thanking Caryl for the interesting questions From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 16:02:53 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 16:02:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189711 Annemehr: > > He [Harry] may have also seen withstanding dementors as a task, like stopping Voldemort from getting the Stone, or rescuing Ginny from the Chamber, that he *had* to try to accomplish. In PS and CoS, he also sought help from adults before going off on his own. In this case, his request for help was granted. Carol responds: Considering that his whole motivation was winning the Quidditch match against Slytherin, I would disagree. And Harry was not the actual target of the Dementors: Sirius Black was. Lupin could hardly have anticipated the events of the evening of Buckbeak's intended execution. Carol, thinking that Lupin might have been less reluctant to help Harry learn the Patronus Charm if Harry had needed it for his own protection as opposed to winning a mere game From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 7 18:04:00 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 7 Nov 2010 18:04:00 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/7/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1289153040.19.6303.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189712 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 7, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ocegree at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 05:43:59 2010 From: ocegree at yahoo.com (Allan) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 05:43:59 -0000 Subject: Professor Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189713 When I read that... it almost brought tears to my eyes, that a man could love so deep to put his life at risk to avenge her death. That is the reluctant hero that lives in books. Harry and Snape, who hate each other, have the love of Lily in common and we only see that in the last chapters of the books. I think that is brilliant. Allan From katherinemaurer at ymail.com Sun Nov 7 10:05:17 2010 From: katherinemaurer at ymail.com (katherinemaurer at ymail.com) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 10:05:17 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > Mike: > I don't know if Elkins answered your particular question either, it was so long ago that I read her amazing (and amazingly long) 9-part series on the Crouches. I read that too, plus pretty much all of her Crouch Family related theories, because I'm writing a Crouch Fanfic and I'd like to do it justice. I want to write about Barty Jr's time in school and the lead up to him "crossing over to the dark side". So I wonder again: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? Further to that, what was Barty Jr's childhood like, to lead him to that decision? Since reading Elkins' theories, I only have one point of view as well as my own which, to me doesn't sound very good. I would like to ask what other listies theories are. And Mike, I was also wondering which of Elkins' theories you don't agree with. -Katherine Maurer who is desperate to become an expert on the Crouch Family. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 21:37:28 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:37:28 -0000 Subject: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Allan" wrote: > > Duane, Harry was wrong about Hagrid... he was wrong about Snape... He had no clue he was a Wizard... believed Sirius killled his father... screwed up with Professor Quill... thought the really good looking teacher knew what he was doing... only in the last few books does he begin to "get it right". > Alla: Not in my opinion, no, as far as I am concerned Harry was spot on about Snape. He sensed since the very first lesson that Snape hated him and in my opinion this is exactly what books showed us. And JKR confirmed in the interview, but I know that interviews are not books and could be easily ignored. I am just saying that this is exactly what I am reading in canon and I like that this exactly what author's intentions were, to show that Snape hated Harry till his dying breath I think that when Harry has all the information he is often quite right about what is happening. So of course he was wrong about Snape's loyalty but not about Snape's opinion and feelings towards him in my opinion. And when was he wrong about Hagrid? Yeah he believed Sirius killed his father and it took Sirius what? Two minutes to convince him? I think Dumbledore took much longer and Harry took pretty big leap of faith on the stranger. JMO, Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Nov 8 00:41:01 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 00:41:01 -0000 Subject: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189716 "Allan" wrote: > > Duane, Harry was wrong about Hagrid... he was wrong about Snape... He had no clue he was a Wizard... believed Sirius killled his father... screwed up with Professor Quill... thought the really good looking teacher knew what he was doing... only in the last few books does he begin to "get it right". > Potioncat: Sorry, I don't quite get the examples. Harry was wrong about a lot of things which warned some of us not to rely too fully on his point of view. But he was right about things too---sometimes he was just a little off. I think his mistakes made the story more fun and made him an Every Man character. Could I ask that you keep some portion of the post you're responding to when you respond--like I did in this case. It's makes it easier for other readers to follow along and join in. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Nov 8 01:50:50 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 01:50:50 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189717 "katherinemaurer at ..." < wrote: > > Hi, I'm new here and was hoping to ask some questions and speculate on Harry Potter. Potioncat: Welcome! My you've done some digging. There were some pretty amazing theories about the Crouches. I can't remember now if we only hear about him in one book or if he's mentioned earlier. > > > The most canon says about Barty's childhood was in Padfoot Returns, page 459 Sirius says, "Once the boy had died, people started feeling a bit more sympathetic towards him, and started asking how a nice young lad from a good family had gone so badly astray. The conclusion was that his father never much cared for him." Potioncat: If that's the section I'm thinking about nothing Sirius says is correct. I'm not sure what JKR intended in that conversation. We get a strong idea of things, but they don't pan out if you really think about it. (It's been a while since I've read it) It seems it's the same time that he doesn't think Snape was a DE, in part because DD wouldn't hire a former DE. So I'm not too convinced about his theory about what happened to Barty. I haven't read the theories in a long time, so I don't know what Elkins said either. But if you want to be a Bary Crouch expert, I'd say you just need to know what was said about him, and who said it--and know what was said about that time. I'd suggest reading the section where Kreacher talks about Regulus. We get a good look at what Regulus was thinking and he's from Barty's generation. Good luck, and keep posting. From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Nov 8 02:27:43 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 02:27:43 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" wrote: > > > > > Potioncat: > I was really struck in this read by how close Harry came to mentioning the dog--that he thought might be a grim--to Lupin. And I too wondered how it would have changed things. I think Lupin would have looked grave and Harry would have quickly changed the subject, more convinced than ever that it was a Grim. > > Who thinks Lupin would have kept the information to himself--like he did about the Marauders' Map and who thinks he would have taken some action? Who thinks he might have told DD about the Marauders' Animagus forms? > Nikkalmati I believe Lupin would have realized at once that the dog was Sirius and that he was after Harry, but everyone assumes Sirius is after Harry anyway. Lupin might have warned Harry to stay away from any dogs and to report any sightings. He would assume that Hogwarts was still safe, not knowing about Crookshanks, so I doubt he would take the extraordinary step of telling all to Dumbledore. That confession would risk his relationship with DD and possibly his job. He would have to admit the Mauraders had fooled DD for years. The fact that Sirius was going about as a dog was important information necessary to protect Harry. Lupin would not have the courage to come clean IMHO. He would have convinced himself that it wasn't necessary to tell DD. Nikkalmati From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Nov 8 02:54:06 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 02:54:06 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katherinemaurer at ..." wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Mike: > > I don't know if Elkins answered your particular question either, it was so long ago that I read her amazing (and amazingly long) 9-part series on the Crouches. > > I read that too, plus pretty much all of her Crouch Family related theories, because I'm writing a Crouch Fanfic and I'd like to do it justice. I want to write about Barty Jr's time in school and the lead up to him "crossing over to the dark side". > > So I wonder again: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? Further to that, what was Barty Jr's childhood like, to lead him to that decision? > > Since reading Elkins' theories, I only have one point of view as well as my own which, to me doesn't sound very good. I would like to ask what other listies theories are. And Mike, I was also wondering which of Elkins' theories you don't agree with. > > -Katherine Maurer who is desperate to become an expert on the Crouch Family. > Nikkalmati I don't think anyone is going to be able to give you anything but theories. I think that JKR wanted to show us an example of what happens when a dedicated fighter against evil forgets his own obligations and becomes excessively rigid. I do beleive Barty felt ignored by his father and unable to get his attention, so he rebelled in the only way he could think of and joined the other side. Crouch Sr was devestated, but I don't know that he felt any responsibilty. He rescued his son mostly at the behest of his wife and for her sake. He still kept Barty a prisoner, and again he had no pity for his house elf when she let him get away (was it Wendy? I forget). Crouch, Sr. lost his humanity and suffered for it. Crouch, Jr. only became worse in Azkaban. At the end he is as much a monster as LV. Nikkalmati Nikkalmati From samisummers31477 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 22:41:12 2010 From: samisummers31477 at gmail.com (Sami Summers) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 14:41:12 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: References: <397260.9441.qm@web120410.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189720 > Allan wrote: > > Duane, Harry was wrong about Hagrid... he was wrong about Snape... > He had no clue he was a Wizard... believed Sirius killled his > father... screwed up with Professor Quill... thought the really > good looking teacher knew what he was doing... only > in the last few books does he begin to "get it right". I agree... sometimes it looked like Harry would never get it together... but he soon did... he will be a great wizard... Sami Summers From ocegree at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 05:29:17 2010 From: ocegree at yahoo.com (Allan) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 05:29:17 -0000 Subject: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189721 The Grim: Harry never saw a Grim... he saw Sirius The Broomstick: Also, Harry got it wrong about who sent him his Broomstick. Allan From katherinemaurer at ymail.com Mon Nov 8 06:52:16 2010 From: katherinemaurer at ymail.com (katherinemaurer at ymail.com) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 06:52:16 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: > Nikkalmati > > I don't think anyone is going to be able to give you anything but theories. I think that JKR wanted to show us an example of what happens when a dedicated fighter against evil forgets his own obligations and becomes excessively rigid. I do beleive Barty felt ignored by his father and unable to get his attention, so he rebelled in the only way he could think of and joined the other side. Crouch Sr was devestated, but I don't know that he felt any responsibilty. katherinemaurer: I guess that might be the best and general theory. So, am I correct in saying that Barty "felt" like his father didn't love him, because he wasn't being loved. (This is where Sirius and several members of the public may have gone astray and thought that Crouch Sr. didn't care for his son.) Although, he did care for his son, as he was highly invested in him to become exactly like himself. He thought it was love, but it wasn't love. So, Barty Jr becomes rebellious, wanting to find acceptance of who he was (a loyal servant, not a leader/master) and his father has no idea why, if he was just "loving" him. In "loving" him he feels no responsibility, because he thinks what he was doing wasn't wrong. So he continues to use his so called "loving" techniques on his son, such as the imperius curse and is frustrated when it just keeps driving him away. My theory as to why Barty Jr chose LV of all people to serve, (unlike someone like Ludo Bagman - Barty Jr was into Quidditch, he could have idolised him instead) was because in continuing to want to serve people like his father, he wanted to serve LV. Thematically, LV was the same as his father in their similar actions and ways of treating people/servants. LV, like Crouch Sr also inspired such great loyalty in his son, which added to LV's appeal. What do you think about that? Do you think I'm right? Also, considering you keep saying that you haven't read Elkin's posts in a while, I'll show you some snippets of some of her posts relating to Barty Jr joining LV. I've used parts of Elkins' theories to make my above theories, such as: Message #47933 (about Crouch Sr. loving his son). "I'm sure that Crouch believed that he loved his son," Elkins says. "I'm absolutely positive of that. I'm sure that he told himself that he was taking such pains to preserve his son's life not only to honor his wife's last wishes, but also because he truly and genuinely loved his son. But I'm not altogether convinced that Barty Crouch Sr. really understood the meaning of that word. I don't think that he really got that whole love concept any better than Voldemort does." Message #47933 (about Crouch Sr. being thematically linked to LV). "Voldemort presents as a father figure in the graveyard." she says again, very softly. "And he is strongly textually linked to Crouch Sr." Message #47931 (about Crouch Sr.'s ability to inspire that he shares with LV). "Crouch Sr. didn't deserve the kind of loyalty that he inspired in others, and he didn't have a very salutory effect on those who were drawn in by his charisma, or by the lies that he told." But some of Elkins' posts, I don't understand. Do you think that you would be able to shed some light on them? Message #47927 "...but I'd say that her son took after her in a lot more ways than just physical frailty." "He didn't get her strength of resolve, though," points out Eileen. "No. He didn't get her strength of resolve. Either of his parents' strengths of resolve, really. But then, you know, when you have someone who is an only child, a talented only child, an only child of a wealthy family, whose parents are both immensely devoted to each other, both highly invested in their child's performance, and who are both made of pure steel?" Both Elkins and her hobby horse shudder violently. She reaches down to stroke the horse on the neck. "It's often difficult for people with that sort of upbringing to develop any normal sense of self-assertion," she says quietly. "Or of independence. Or of individuation. Or even of identity, really. I think that the fact that Crouch Jr's parents were both so strong-willed probably had a lot to do with his dissociative tendencies. That's a family dynamic that often encourages a child to engage in some rather...indirect modes of expression." Eileen frowns. "Indirect?" "Indirect. Circuitous. Multiplicitous. Sly, sidelong, allusive. Kaleidoscopic. One might even say schizopathic. Somewhat schizophrenic modes of expression, Eileen. Double-edged statements. Hidden meanings. Concretized metaphor. And the tendency..." Elkins' voice trails off. She glances out over the Bay, taking in the diverse vessels, the flying flags, all of the landmarks: the Canon Museum, the Canon College, the Weather Station, the Safe House. St. Mungos. The Garden of Good and Evil. She shivers convulsively and shuts her eyes. "The tendency to get caught up in fantasy," she whispers. "To allow oneself to become subsumed. Subsumed into other people's desires. Subsumed into other people's personae." and Message #47931 "If Crouch was anything," says Elkins. "I'd say that he was too interested in his son. Way too interested in him. Unhealthily interested in him. Over-involved. Over-identified. I do think that Crouch was a terrible parental influence, but not because he was disinterested. Because he was over-identified. And also because of the falsehoods that he projected about himself. Falsehoods that his son took far too seriously." "Charis Julia says that Crouch probably never bothered to explain right and wrong to Barty Jr," says Eileen. "She suggests that he simply delivered orders and expected his son to obey them without ever explaining his rationale for them. In the ever-so-brilliant Message 37769, she wrote: Unfortunately however this left Barty Jr not only resentful of his father's iron fist but also sadly susceptible to Voldemort's "There is no good and evil/only power and those too weak to seek it" persuasive little speech." "Mmmmmm." Elkins shakes her head slowly. "I don't really think that I agree with that precisely," she says. "Not that I don't think that Crouch was a pretty tyrannical father, mind. I'm sure that he was. But I'm not sure that I see the same relationship that Charis does between Crouch's parenting style and his son's terrible decisions. For one thing, I don't see why we should assume that Voldemort used the exact same seduction speech with all of his followers. Was Barty Jr. really a 'power and the will to seek it' sort of person, do you think? I don't think that's quite the way his mind worked. After all, he told us what his greatest ambition was, didn't he? He told us when he was under the veritaserum. He said that his greatest ambition was to serve. To serve, and to prove himself worthy of service. In other words," she says. "He wanted to be as truly devoted to the service of some cause as his father, the supposed public servant, merely pretended to be." "You aren't really trying to blame Barty Crouch Sr. for his son's decision to become a Death Eater," asks Eileen. "Are you, Elkins?" "No, of course not. People have to make their own choices in the end, don't they? Not that Crouch Sr. believed in that, of course. I'm just pointing out the extent to which the falsehoods that Crouch projected about himself influenced his son's behavior, and in ways that really weren't healthy. It doesn't excuse Crouch Jr. for his bad decisions. He should have found a worthier cause to devote himself to. Much like Percy should have, actually. Or Winky, for that matter, although Winky didn't really have as much choice in the matter. Crouch Sr. didn't deserve the kind of loyalty that he inspired in others, and he didn't have a very salutory effect on those who were drawn in by his charisma, or by the lies that he told. Really, he seems to have corrupted or damaged or destroyed just about everyone that his life touched in one way or another. His son. His Aurors. Percy. Winky. Not to mention Bertha Jorkins! But most of all, the Wizarding World as a whole. Do you remember what I was saying before, about Crouch's relationship with his son?" "You said that you thought that it reiterated on the personal level his political relationship with the wizarding world," answers Eileen. "Right. Well, the reason that parricide and tyrannicide are so closely conceptually linked is because fathers and leaders are closely conceptually linked. Crouch had very much the same effect on his public as he did on his son, I'd say. He told lies that people believed, and the lies that he told were really very bad for them. We keep being told about how fearful and paranoid everyone was during the war, don't we? Sirius mentions it. Hagrid mentions it. Well, how do you think that they got that way?" "Because Voldemort and his DEs were conducting a war of terror?" "In part. But also because they were being encouraged to react that way by their own leaders. Paranoia like that is never a one-way street." katherinemaurer who really wants to understand what Elkins was talking about. From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 17:27:22 2010 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:27:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189723 > Annemehr: > > > > > He [Harry] may have also seen withstanding dementors as a task, like stopping Voldemort from getting the Stone, or rescuing Ginny from the Chamber, that he *had* to try to accomplish. In PS and CoS, he also sought help from adults before going off on his own. In this case, his request for help was granted. > Carol responds: > Considering that his whole motivation was winning the Quidditch match against Slytherin, I would disagree. And Harry was not the actual target of the Dementors: Sirius Black was. Lupin could hardly have anticipated the events of the evening of Buckbeak's intended execution. > > Carol, thinking that Lupin might have been less reluctant to help Harry learn the Patronus Charm if Harry had needed it for his own protection as opposed to winning a mere game > Annemehr: Mere Quidditch may not be enough motivation for you (or me either), but it apparently is to Harry. He is willing to hear his parents' deaths repeatedly in order to practice the Patronus spell so he can win the match against Slytherin. I recall there was some discussion of his priorities in this group in the past, but there you have it. And I think Quidditch is really only his *immediate* concern. Harry does not like being so vulnerable to dementors, period. In his conversation with Lupin in the chapter under discussion, the question 'burst from him before he could stop himself: "*Why?* Why do they affect me like that? Am I just --?"' It may not be quite up to the level of immediate need as saving the Stone or rescuing Ginny, but I still think getting a handle on his problem with dementors is a "must do" in Harry's mind. Annemehr From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 8 21:22:55 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 21:22:55 -0000 Subject: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189724 > Alla: > I think that when Harry has all the information he is often quite right about what is happening. Pippin: LOL! It hardly takes brilliance to be right about what is happening when you have all the information. It is the assumptions Harry makes when he doesn't have all the information that we are talking about here. As for recognizing that Snape hates him, where in canon is there any doubt about it? Even Hagrid can't make much of an argument otherwise. But the assumptions Harry makes based on that recognition are all wrong, because Harry didn't understand for a long time is that hatred is a weak motive for murder. At least in canon, greed, fear and rage are way ahead of it. Alla: And when was he wrong about Hagrid? Pippin: He was wrong in thinking that Hagrid opened the Chamber of Secrets the first time, an opinion he held between Valentine's Day and his talk with Aragog which took place two weeks after the Easter holidays -- quite a while. Pippin From xellina at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 22:44:55 2010 From: xellina at gmail.com (Cassy Ferris) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 14:44:55 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189725 > > Harry was right about Draco being a Death Eater and being behind the attacks in HBP though. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 10 01:07:17 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 01:07:17 -0000 Subject: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189726 > > Alla: > > I think that when Harry has all the information he is often quite right about what is happening. > > Pippin: > LOL! It hardly takes brilliance to be right about what is happening when you have all the information. It is the assumptions Harry makes when he doesn't have all the information that we are talking about here. Alla: Maybe you are talking about the assumptions Harry makes when he does not have all the information Pippin, but that's surely not what I was responding to. I was responding to what I felt was very generalized argument about Harry being basically almost always wrong. Wrong about people, things, their behavior, etc. And well, do I even need to bring up the fictional detectives or real life detectives who have all the clues to solve the puzzle staring them in the face and still failing to solve such puzzle. Harry often for the sake of the story cannot see and have those clues, of course it makes the story more interesting at times, but when he does have those clues he gets things right too. Dumbledore supposedly had a whole lot more information about Tommy and his behavior patterns and how many horcruxes he found during his lifetime? And let's not forget how everybody was telling him that Draco Malfoy just was not up to something in HBP. Pippin: > As for recognizing that Snape hates him, where in canon is there any doubt about it? Even Hagrid can't make much of an argument otherwise. Alla: LOL. I had been a member of this group for quite some time and correct me if I am wrong, but I think you had been a member even longer than me. I am yet to remember universal agreement about such no-doubt fact and one would think that if it was so clear, more people would have been in agreement. You get no argument for me though, I also think that canon is crystal clear on this point ;) But I give Harry more credit than you do, I think he caught up on it really fast. Pippin: But the assumptions Harry makes based on that recognition are all wrong, because Harry didn't understand for a long time is that hatred is a weak motive for murder. At least in canon, greed, fear and rage are way ahead of it. Alla: IMO I think canon shows that greed, fear and rage often go together with hate, because I do not remember where in canon Voldemort is shown as a loving individual and most of his followers as well. If you are saying that hate alone is a weak motive for murder, if that's what canon shows I think it is very contrived and unrealistic idea. Because IMO hate in real life is very often a motive for murder, but of course again often it goes together with other motives (from what I read and hear on TV of course, did not talk to any murderers as far as I am aware in rl :)). But personally I think that on Snape's example she makes much more limited in scope argument, I think she is saying that his love for Lily was bigger than his hatred for Harry and he managed to not to act on it, that's all. Just my opinion of course. > Alla: > > And when was he wrong about Hagrid? > > Pippin: > He was wrong in thinking that Hagrid opened the Chamber of Secrets the first time, an opinion he held between Valentine's Day and his talk with Aragog which took place two weeks after the Easter holidays -- quite a while. Alla: Ah. Sure of course, he was, thanks. From puduhepa98 at aol.com Wed Nov 10 02:47:56 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 02:47:56 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katherinemaurer at ..." wrote: > >> > . > > So, am I correct in saying that Barty "felt" like his father didn't love him, because he wasn't being loved. (This is where Sirius and several members of the public may have gone astray and thought that Crouch Sr. didn't care for his son.) Although, he did care for his son, as he was highly invested in him to become exactly like himself. He thought it was love, but it wasn't love. So, Barty Jr becomes rebellious, wanting to find acceptance of who he was (a loyal servant, not a leader/master) and his father has no idea why, if he was just "loving" him. In "loving" him he feels no responsibility, because he thinks what he was doing wasn't wrong. So he continues to use his so called "loving" techniques on his son, such as the imperius curse and is frustrated when it just keeps driving him away. > > My theory as to why Barty Jr chose LV of all people to serve, (unlike someone like Ludo Bagman - Barty Jr was into Quidditch, he could have idolised him instead) was because in continuing to want to serve people like his father, he wanted to serve LV. Thematically, LV was the same as his father in their similar actions and ways of treating people/servants. LV, like Crouch Sr also inspired such great loyalty in his son, which added to LV's appeal. > > What do you think about that? Do you think I'm right? > > Nikkalmati I do think Barty Sr loved his son, but he neglected him. He was also rigid and, I'm sure, expected Barty Jr. to be a paragon. Barty Jr. chose to follow LV because that would most upset his father. He probably was also looking for a father's attention and LV gave him that. Nikkalmati > > Also, considering you keep saying that you haven't read Elkin's posts in a while, I'll show you some snippets of some of her posts relating to Barty Jr joining LV. I've used parts of Elkins' theories to make my above theories, such as: > > Message #47933 (about Crouch Sr. loving his son). > > "I'm sure that Crouch believed that he loved his son," Elkins says. "I'm absolutely positive of that. I'm sure that he told himself that he was taking such pains to preserve his son's life not only to honor his wife's last wishes, but also because he truly and genuinely loved his son. But I'm not altogether convinced that Barty Crouch Sr. really understood the meaning of that word. I don't think that he really got that whole love concept any better than Voldemort does." > > Message #47933 (about Crouch Sr. being thematically linked to LV). > > "Voldemort presents as a father figure in the graveyard." she says again, very softly. "And he is strongly textually linked to Crouch Sr." > > Message #47931 (about Crouch Sr.'s ability to inspire that he shares with LV). > > "Crouch Sr. didn't deserve the kind of loyalty that he inspired in others, and he didn't have a very salutory effect on those who were drawn in by his charisma, or by the lies that he told." > > > > But some of Elkins' posts, I don't understand. Do you think that you would be able to shed some light on them? > > Message #47927 > > "...but I'd say that her son took after her in a lot more ways than just physical frailty." > > "He didn't get her strength of resolve, though," points out Eileen. > > "No. He didn't get her strength of resolve. Either of his parents' strengths of resolve, really. But then, you know, when you have someone who is an only child, a talented only child, an only child of a wealthy family, whose parents are both immensely devoted to each other, both highly invested in their child's performance, and who are both made of pure steel?" > > Both Elkins and her hobby horse shudder violently. She reaches down to stroke the horse on the neck. > > "It's often difficult for people with that sort of upbringing to develop any normal sense of self-assertion," she says quietly. "Or of independence. Or of individuation. Or even of identity, really. I think that the fact that Crouch Jr's parents were both so strong-willed probably had a lot to do with his dissociative tendencies. That's a family dynamic that often encourages a child to engage in some rather...indirect modes of expression." > > Eileen frowns. "Indirect?" > > "Indirect. Circuitous. Multiplicitous. Sly, sidelong, allusive. Kaleidoscopic. One might even say schizopathic. Somewhat schizophrenic modes of expression, Eileen. Double-edged statements. Hidden meanings. Concretized metaphor. And the tendency..." > > Elkins' voice trails off. She glances out over the Bay, taking in the diverse vessels, the flying flags, all of the landmarks: the Canon Museum, the Canon College, the Weather Station, the Safe House. St. Mungos. The Garden of Good and Evil. She shivers convulsively and shuts her eyes. > > "The tendency to get caught up in fantasy," she whispers. "To allow oneself to become subsumed. Subsumed into other people's desires. Subsumed into other people's personae." > Nikkalmati Well, I can't speak for Elkins, who is very eloquent herself, but I feel she is probably not far off the mark in that Barty Jr was so indulged but also ignored and encouraged to behave himself that he never developed his own personality and was easy pickings for a dominant personality like LV. Nikkalmati > > Message #47931 > > "If Crouch was anything," says Elkins. "I'd say that he was too interested in his son. Way too interested in him. Unhealthily interested in him. Over-involved. Over-identified. I do think that Crouch was a terrible parental influence, but not because he was disinterested. Because he was over-identified. And also because of the falsehoods that he projected about himself. Falsehoods that his son took far too seriously." > > "Charis Julia says that Crouch probably never bothered to explain right and wrong to Barty Jr," says Eileen. "She suggests that he simply delivered orders and expected his son to obey them without ever explaining his rationale for them. In the ever-so-brilliant Message 37769, she wrote: > > Unfortunately however this left Barty Jr not only resentful of his father's iron fist but also sadly susceptible to Voldemort's "There is no good and evil/only power and those too weak to seek it" persuasive little speech." > > "Mmmmmm." Elkins shakes her head slowly. "I don't really think that I agree with that precisely," she says. "Not that I don't think that Crouch was a pretty tyrannical father, mind. I'm sure that he was. But I'm not sure that I see the same relationship that Charis does between Crouch's parenting style and his son's terrible decisions. For one thing, I don't see why we should assume that Voldemort used the exact same seduction speech with all of his followers. Was Barty Jr. really a 'power and the will to seek it' sort of person, do you think? I don't think that's quite the way his mind worked. After all, he told us what his greatest ambition was, didn't he? He told us when he was under the veritaserum. He said that his greatest ambition was to serve. To serve, and to prove himself worthy of service. In other words," she says. "He wanted to be as truly devoted to the service of some cause as his father, the supposed public servant, merely pretended to be." > > "You aren't really trying to blame Barty Crouch Sr. for his son's decision to become a Death Eater," asks Eileen. "Are you, Elkins?" > > "No, of course not. People have to make their own choices in the end, don't they? Not that Crouch Sr. believed in that, of course. I'm just pointing out the extent to which the falsehoods that Crouch projected about himself influenced his son's behavior, and in ways that really weren't healthy. It doesn't excuse Crouch Jr. for his bad decisions. He should have found a worthier cause to devote himself to. Much like Percy should have, actually. Or Winky, for that matter, although Winky didn't really have as much choice in the matter. Crouch Sr. didn't deserve the kind of loyalty that he inspired in others, and he didn't have a very salutory effect on those who were drawn in by his charisma, or by the lies that he told. Really, he seems to have corrupted or damaged or destroyed just about everyone that his life touched in one way or another. His son. His Aurors. Percy. Winky. Not to mention Bertha Jorkins! But most of all, the Wizarding World as a whole. Do you remember what I was saying before, about Crouch's relationship with his son?" > > "You said that you thought that it reiterated on the personal level his political relationship with the wizarding world," answers Eileen. > > "Right. Well, the reason that parricide and tyrannicide are so closely conceptually linked is because fathers and leaders are closely conceptually linked. Crouch had very much the same effect on his public as he did on his son, I'd say. He told lies that people believed, and the lies that he told were really very bad for them. We keep being told about how fearful and paranoid everyone was during the war, don't we? Sirius mentions it. Hagrid mentions it. Well, how do you think that they got that way?" > > "Because Voldemort and his DEs were conducting a war of terror?" > > "In part. But also because they were being encouraged to react that way by their own leaders. Paranoia like that is never a one-way street." > > katherinemaurer who really wants to understand what Elkins was talking about. > Nikkalmati Not sure I get this either. I don't see Barty Sr as inspiring great devotion (except in his house elf, no surprise). I am also not sure what lies he told. He was leading a society in very hard times and used extreme methods to do it. I don't see how he was resonsible for Bertha Jorkins' fate either. He appears to have misused his power, but we don't know the circumstances under which he authorized the AK for the Aurors. "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they arn't after you" comes to mind. His reaction to his son's behavior, comdemning him without a sign of emotion seems to have freightened everyone who saw it. He maintained his place in society after the war and was not condemed for his actions. Nikkalmati From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 10 03:30:09 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 03:30:09 -0000 Subject: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189728 > > Alla: > Dumbledore supposedly had a whole lot more information about Tommy and his behavior patterns and how many horcruxes he found during his lifetime? Pippin: I think Dumbledore gets at least partial credit for finding all the horcruxes except the tiara. Besides identifying, locating and destroying the Ring horcrux completely on his own, he identified the diary, the locket and the cup, located the Harry!crux and the hiding place of the locket, and of course the fragment in Voldemort himself. Harry would have spent a long time hunting without Dumbledore's information, if he had even known what to hunt for. And Dumbledore only had a year left from the time when he found the Ring, and unlike Harry he could not devote full time to hunting. It's doubtful that Harry would have fared any better if he'd encountered the Ring first than Dumbledore did. He certainly didn't take due care of the malice in the Diary or the Locket when he first found them, and he *knew* what the locket was. > > Pippin: > > As for recognizing that Snape hates him, where in canon is there any doubt about it? Even Hagrid can't make much of an argument otherwise. > > Alla: > > LOL. I had been a member of this group for quite some time and correct me if I am wrong, but I think you had been a member even longer than me. I am yet to remember universal agreement about such no-doubt fact and one would think that if it was so clear, more people would have been in agreement Pippin: LOL! This list has seldom produced universal agreement about anything. True, some of us guessed that Snape, the Great Pretender, might be pretending to some of his animosity towards Harry. And he does pretend, in HBP and DH, that he wants Harry turned over to Voldemort, so to that extent we were right. But no one in canon ever seriously suggested that Snape didn't hate Harry, so unless Harry has access to this list, it is hard to see how he could have drawn any other conclusion from Snape's behavior. And when Harry finally realized what a great actor Snape was,he still drew the wrong conclusion about what part he was playing. > > Pippin: > But the assumptions Harry makes based on that recognition are all wrong, because Harry didn't understand for a long time is that hatred is a weak motive for murder. At least in canon, greed, fear and rage are way ahead of it. > > Alla: > > IMO I think canon shows that greed, fear and rage often go together with hate, because I do not remember where in canon Voldemort is shown as a loving individual and most of his followers as well. Pippin: All his followers are shown to be capable of love, though it often leads them to do twisted things, and none of them kill out of hate, IIRC. Quirrell tries to kill Harry out of fear that Harry will expose him, Riddle wants to kill Harry to get power ("Let's match the powers of..") so that's greed. Peter killed out of fear, Crouch Jr hated his father for most of his life but didn't try to kill him until his father threatened to expose him. In HBP we see clearly that Draco's hatred isn't enough to goad him into killing. It takes fear to do that, and once the fear is removed, he doesn't want to kill, though his hatred is unchanged. What canon shows, IMO, is that hate makes it easy to contemplate killing, but doesn't actually make it easier to do. Which makes sense, if you think about it. Contemplating anything doesn't give you the power to do it. Snape acted on his hatred of Harry almost from the moment he first saw him, but he knew enough about killing to know that killing wouldn't satisfy his hate. His words to Sirius are very telling, IMO: "Give me a reason, and I swear I will" IOW, he didn't consider his hatred enough of a reason to kill. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 10 15:17:21 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:17:21 -0000 Subject: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189729 > Pippin previously: > I think Dumbledore gets at least partial credit for finding all the horcruxes except the tiara. Besides identifying, locating and destroying the Ring horcrux completely on his own, he identified the diary, the locket and the cup, located the Harry!crux and the hiding place of the locket, and of course the fragment in Voldemort himself. Pippin: Of course I left out Nagini. Dumbledore identified her as a horcrux too. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 10 16:05:13 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:05:13 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189730 > > Message #47931 ? He told us when he was under the veritaserum. He said that his greatest ambition was to serve. To serve, and to prove himself worthy of service. In other words," she says. "He wanted to be as truly devoted to the service of some cause as his father, the supposed public servant, merely pretended to be." > > > > "You aren't really trying to blame Barty Crouch Sr. for his son's decision to become a Death Eater," asks Eileen. "Are you, Elkins?" > > > > "No, of course not. People have to make their own choices in the end, don't they? Not that Crouch Sr. believed in that, of course. I'm just pointing out the extent to which the falsehoods that Crouch projected about himself influenced his son's behavior, and in ways that really weren't healthy. It doesn't excuse Crouch Jr. for his bad decisions. He should have found a worthier cause to devote himself to. Much like Percy should have, actually. Or Winky, for that matter, although Winky didn't really have as much choice in the matter. Crouch Sr. didn't deserve the kind of loyalty that he inspired in others, and he didn't have a very salutory effect on those who were drawn in by his charisma, or by the lies that he told. Really, he seems to have corrupted or damaged or destroyed just about everyone that his life touched in one way or another. His son. His Aurors. Percy. Winky. Not to mention Bertha Jorkins! But most of all, the Wizarding World as a whole. Do you remember what I was saying before, about Crouch's relationship with his son?" > > > > "You said that you thought that it reiterated on the personal level his political relationship with the wizarding world," answers Eileen. > > > > "Right. Well, the reason that parricide and tyrannicide are so closely conceptually linked is because fathers and leaders are closely conceptually linked. Crouch had very much the same effect on his public as he did on his son, I'd say. He told lies that people believed, and the lies that he told were really very bad for them. We keep being told about how fearful and paranoid everyone was during the war, don't we? Sirius mentions it. Hagrid mentions it. Well, how do you think that they got that way?" > > > > "Because Voldemort and his DEs were conducting a war of terror?" > > > > "In part. But also because they were being encouraged to react that way by their own leaders. Paranoia like that is never a one-way street." > > > > katherinemaurer who really wants to understand what Elkins was talking about. > > > Nikkalmati: > > Not sure I get this either. I don't see Barty Sr as inspiring great devotion (except in his house elf, no surprise). I am also not sure what lies he told. He was leading a society in very hard times and used extreme methods to do it. I don't see how he was resonsible for Bertha Jorkins' fate either. He appears to have misused his power, but we don't know the circumstances under which he authorized the AK for the Aurors. "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they arn't after you" comes to mind. His reaction to his son's behavior, comdemning him without a sign of emotion seems to have freightened everyone who saw it. He maintained his place in society after the war and was not condemed for his actions. Pippin: I think the pretense Elkins was referring to was Barty Sr claiming to act in the public interest when he had become obsessed with increasing his own power. Whether he was perceptive enough to notice this at the time I am not sure, but I am sure that his son saw it, was repelled by it, and expected Voldemort to reward his devotion as his father had not. Barty Jr would have known that he couldn't win his father's love by devoting himself to the public good since his father didn't really care about it any more, so why not show his scorn by turning against everything his father stood for? I think Elkins is suggesting that Crouch fanned the public's paranoia about Voldemort in order to consolidate his own support, that he knew there was no tactical or strategic advantage in using the Unforgivable Curses, but it made him look like the kind of take-no-prisoners leader that people thought they needed. By authorizing the use of the unforgivable curses against suspects, he attracted people to the Auror Office who *wanted* to use them, people who were in some cases as cruel and ruthless as the DE's themselves. JKR's own view seems to be that people are going to do whatever occurs to them if they are defending their families or fighting for their lives, but those who undertake to defend others as a public trust have a responsibility to learn to do so in ways that cause the least amount of damage. Elkins, IIRC, was fascinated by the Crouches not least because she couldn't figure out what they were doing in the story. We can see now, IMO, that they are there to give some substance to Dumbledore's fears. He was afraid to seek the office of Minister of Magic because of what he might have persuaded himself to do in order to get it, and he was afraid to commit himself to raising a family of his own because he did not trust himself to walk the line between neglecting their interests and putting them ahead of the public's. There is more than a little similarity between Barty's half-mad confession in The Madness of Mister Crouch and Dumbledore's confession in the horcrux cave. Barty Sr was not responsible for Bertha falling into the hands of Voldemort, but he did memory charm her in order to keep her from telling anyone that Barty Jr was still alive. If she hadn't been the unwilling and unknowing repository of Crouch's secrets, she might at least have had an easier death. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 10 21:26:02 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 21:26:02 -0000 Subject: Hate as motivation for murder in canon WAS: Re: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189731 > Pippin: > All his followers are shown to be capable of love, though it often leads them to do twisted things, and none of them kill out of hate, IIRC. Quirrell tries to kill Harry out of fear that Harry will expose him, Riddle wants to kill Harry to get power ("Let's match the powers of..") so that's greed. Peter killed out of fear, Crouch Jr hated his father for most of his life but didn't try to kill him until his father threatened to expose him. In HBP we see clearly that Draco's hatred isn't enough to goad him into killing. It takes fear to do that, and once the fear is removed, he doesn't want to kill, though his hatred is unchanged. > > What canon shows, IMO, is that hate makes it easy to contemplate killing, but doesn't actually make it easier to do. Which makes sense, if you think about it. Contemplating anything doesn't give you the power to do it. > > Snape acted on his hatred of Harry almost from the moment he first saw him, but he knew enough about killing to know that killing wouldn't satisfy his hate. His words to Sirius are very telling, IMO: "Give me a reason, and I swear I will" IOW, he didn't consider his hatred enough of a reason to kill. Alla: I am not saying that all people who hate other people will go and kill them, or even try to kill them, of course not. I however disagree (and hope that JKR did not make such broad argument, because if she did, that does not ring true to RL for me at all) that hate alone cannot be a powerful motivator to murder people. If she is saying with the Snape's character that not everybody will do it, sure I have no gripes with that, but no matter how many additional factors you can prescribe to Natzies as to why they wanted to murder all who did not look, walk and talk like them, all the minorities, Jews, Gypsies, Gays, it all started with hate in my view. So do I think hate alone is enough to contemplate and start murders? Yes, I do. Take a look at the contemporary hate crimes, there is a reason why they are called hate crimes IMO. And Peter killed out of fear? Sure, he did, but I have not noticed him loving those whom he killed. Malfoys are capable of love? Sure they are, *between themselves*. I have not noticed Lucius loving muggle borns and muggles, and those are species they aim to kill and yes, I think hate is at least part of his motivations. What about Bella besides her being crazy murderer? Whom did she fear? I guess you could say that she feared what she imagined as her Lordie's love or lust for her, but again I see such hatred from her of muggles and muggle borns that I do not understand how you can claim that hate is not a powerful motivator to kill people in canon. So I would say that Harry was wrong in thinking that this particular person (Snape) whom he correctly figured out hated him was going to kill him too, but I would say that there could have been a very good chance that he could have been right, because often people who hate do kill. And again, what about Voldemort? I have not noticed any particular motivation for his killings besides hate. I guess we can assign world domination to him, but that is not mutually exclusive. JMO, Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 11 17:50:51 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:50:51 -0000 Subject: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189733 Alla wrote: > > Maybe you are talking about the assumptions Harry makes when he does not have all the information Pippin, but that's surely not what I was responding to. I was responding to what I felt was very generalized argument about Harry being basically almost always wrong. Wrong about people, things, their behavior, etc. Carol responds: I snipped the part about being right or wrong about clues because we need red herrings and wrong interpretations for the mystery elements of the story to work. Also, Harry's being wrong about someone's guilt or innocence is paralleled by instances where most of Hogwarts is wrong about him (CoS, OoP) and the entire WW is wrong about Sirius Black (who is himself wrong about his own brother). Wrong interpretations and wrong judgments are a major motif in these books, and saying that Harry, too, can be wrong (and often is) is not a criticism. It merely indicates that despite being the Chosen One, he's as human as everyone else. Harry's judgments of his teachers and other adults don't tell us much. (I'll leave his view of Dumbledore to you. ) He is wrong throughout the entire series about Snape--not Snape's intense dislike of him but Snape's loyalties and motivations--but that's necessary to the plot (as are most of his misjudgments of adults). He is wrong in SS/PS about Quirrell (whom he thinks is being bullied by Snape); he is rght to some extent about Lockhart (but doesn't realize that he's actually dangerous); he is wrong (along with the whole WW) about Sirius Black); he is wrong--very wrong--about "Professor Moody" (but, again, so is everyone else). He is right about Umbridge--but he saw her vote to expel him from Hogwarts and she's telling the school that Voldemort hasn't returned, so it isn't hard to see that she's a bad apple even before she gives him his cruel detentions. (In HBP and DH there's only Snape to misjudge. Harry's errors are of a different sort that isn't relevant here.) What we see with regard to his teachers is that Harry for the most part judges them by their treatment of him and by appearances. If they're nice to him, they're good guys even if they're incompetent egomaniacs (Lockhart) or cheaters and bullies ("Moody"); if they're mean to him, they're bad guys (Snape, Umbridge). Harry should have seen through Crouch-Moody (a good person does not turn students, even those they dislike, into ferrets and bounce them on the pavement and only a person with an ulterior motive would help a student cheat in a tournament), but the other judgments, right or wrong, are understandable and merely show that he's human. What teenager doesn't judge his teachers in more or less the same way? I think it's Harry's judgments of his contemporaries (and the childlike Hagrid) that are important because they show his growth as a character. True, he starts off with pretty accurate judgments of Draco, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, etc. (Even when he thinks that Hagrid let the monster loose in CoS, he doesn't think that Hagrid did it on purpose.) But he's wrong about Neville and Luna, judging them by appearances. Neville is just a weak little fat boy; Luna is just odd. Only after they fight with him in the Department of Mysteries can he see their worth. (Ginny, too, is just Ron's little sister until that point.) The ultimate example of judging by appearances is Grawp, who must be brutal and unteachable because he's a giant. (Oddly, Hagrid is right in this instance, but he's dead wrong about the Acromantulas!) Kreacher, too, is not what Harry thinks he is. Nor is Sirius's brother, Regulus, the first example of a reformed Death Eater/good Slytherin. Although all these instances, especially his reevaluation of Luna and Neville, are necessary to Harry's growth and development, teaching him that people (and other beings) are not always what they seem, it's not until he sees Snape's memories in the Pensieve that he permanently learns this lesson, IMO. It's too late for Snape, of course, but it's not too late for Harry, who shows that he has learned to value Snape's courage (and love for Harry's mother) by naming his second son Albus Severus. (Of course, the name also shows that he values and forgives the flawed Dumbledore, but I don't want to discuss DD here.) Carol, who thinks that the best indicator of Harry's maturity at the end of the books is his attitude toward Snape and his willingness to give Slytherin House a chance to show its good side From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 11 18:18:07 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:18:07 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189734 Nikkalmati wrote: > > I do think Barty Sr loved his son, but he neglected him. Carol responds: We have only Sirius's word that he neglected him because, IIRC, he loved his wife more than his son, and, as Potioncat pointed out, Sirius is wrong on almost all counts in that discussion (and he has, understandably, no love for Barty Sr.!). Certainly, Crouch Sr. was obsessed with his job and ridding the WW of Death Eaters by whatever means, but we see in "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" when he's talking to Percy (knowing who Percy is at that point but mistaking the decade)that he's proud of his son, who has just earned twelve OWLs. The question is whether Barty Jr. was already on the wrong track at that time and earned the OWLs to be useful to Voldemort, or whether he felt that his father's pride in his accomplishments was no substitute for spending time with him. Barty Jr. was nineteen when he was arrested for taking part in Crucioing the Longbottoms (Sirius is surely wrong that his offense was merely being seen with people Sirius knows to be Death Eaters, aka the three Lestranges). That would be about three years after he took his OWLs (assuming that he was sixteen at the time). Maybe he did equally well on his NEWTs but didn't get the same proud reaction. Or maybe he was Sorted into Slytherin and his friends, one of whom could have been Regulus, became Death Eaters. He might have been in much the same position as the young Snape, finding validation of his brilliance from his fellow Slytherins. I think we can compare him to two other boys as well--Regulus, who admired Voldemort as if he were a celebrity or action hero, complete with press clippings (it took Voldemort's cruelty to someone he cared about to make him see the truth, and that didn't happen in Barty Jr.'s case) and Percy, who turns against his family (temporarily) because they don't value his success and think (rightly) that he's being used. Unlike those two boys, Barty Jr. had no chance for redemption. One trait we don't see in Barty Jr. that we do see in Severus, Regulus, and Percy is courage (physical or moral). Barty cries out to his father for mercy and denies his involvement in the crime for fear of the Dementors, but Bellatrix's attitude (they're all guilty and she's proud of it) and Barty's later behavior, revealed in his confession, shows that he was, indeed, loyal to Voldemort and trying to find his whereabouts. Carol, who dislikes the adult Barty Jr. intensely but has some sympathy for the clever boy who went so badly wrong From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Nov 12 00:17:19 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:17:19 -0000 Subject: Hate as motivation for murder in canon WAS: Re: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189735 > Alla: > > Take a look at the contemporary hate crimes, there is a reason why they are called hate crimes IMO. Pippin: Well I suppose that's a topic for OT-Chatter (remember OT-Chatter?) But why let the other side's rhetoric define the argument? I realize I am going against conventional wisdom here, but If we called them fear crimes, maybe people would not be so ready to brag about them or emulate the perpetrators. Alla: > And Peter killed out of fear? Sure, he did, but I have not noticed him loving those whom he killed. Pippin: He adored James or so we are told, and Harry sees in the Marauders picture no difference between his expression and Lupin's. Alla: Malfoys are capable of love? Sure they are, *between themselves*. I have not noticed Lucius loving muggle borns and muggles, and those are species they aim to kill and yes, I think hate is at least part of his motivations. Pippin: If Lucius had wanted to kill Muggles and Muggleborns he could have, but there is no evidence that he ever did. None of the Malfoys, even Lucius IIRC, ever kill anyone. That's my point. Alla: What about Bella besides her being crazy murderer? Whom did she fear? I guess you could say that she feared what she imagined as her Lordie's love or lust for her, but again I see such hatred from her of muggles and muggle borns that I do not understand how you can claim that hate is not a powerful motivator to kill people in canon. Pippin: I didn't say Bella killed out of fear. I'd say she killed like an attack dog, to please her master. Molly had the right word for what she is . Now I'd agree that hatred attracted her to Voldemort in the first place, and she wouldn't have joined him if his program was anti-pureblood or treating people with kindness and respect. But she killed to please him -- she'd have killed her own (hypothetical) sons if he asked her to, and surely their blood would be as pure as hers. > And again, what about Voldemort? I have not noticed any particular motivation for his killings besides hate. I guess we can assign world domination to him, but that is not mutually exclusive. Pippin: What about him? Well I am not going to be a true LOON and go through every single murder in canon, but let's take the wand shadows as meant to be a representative sample. Cedric the pureblood champion and Frank the common Muggle were both killed because they showed up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hate is hardly a factor: if a pureblood wizard had shown up in Frank's stead, he would have died just the same. Bertha Jorkins, blood unknown, but by that very token we know she wasn't singled out because of it. Any witch gullible enough to follow Peter into the forest would have done. Then there's Lily. And that's really interesting. There's no doubt that Voldemort hates her. She's everything in the world that he hates most: a Dumbledore supporter, a Muggleborn witch married to a pureblood, and she's defied Voldemort not once but three times. But if we don't believe that Voldemort would have spared her, there's no story. Everything hinges on the fact that Voldemort, our star example of hatred, did not feel he had to kill this woman he hated so much. And lastly James. Voldemort hated him, of course. But we get to ride along in Voldemort's mind as he is closing in, and it is not hatred that he is thinking about, nor even anger. Instead he is enjoying the feeling of power and control he has. That's what drives him, that's what he gets out of killing. Tell me, do you think Voldemort was born hating Muggles? I think he learned to fear them first. When Dumbledore finds him in the orphanage he is not plotting world domination, he is just hoping not to be put in an asylum. Voldemort uses hate as a recruiting too, as his real life inspirations didl. Some of the people drawn to him by hatred are killers and some are not. It would be the same if he recruited greedy people, or cowardly ones. But canon suggests that sheer hate is just not enough to make a person into a killer. Look at Mrs. Black. She spits some of the most virulent hatred in the books, but according to Sirius she stopped short of being a Death Eater because she thought Voldemort was going too far. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Nov 13 16:28:01 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:28:01 -0000 Subject: Moody and the clues was Re: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189736 Carol: Harry should have seen through Crouch-Moody (a good person does not turn students, even those they dislike, into ferrets and bounce them on the pavement and only a person with an ulterior motive would help a student cheat in a tournament), but the other judgments, right or wrong, are understandable and merely show that he's human. What teenager doesn't judge his teachers in more or less the same way? Pippin: Hagrid helped Harry cheat in the tournament too...is he supposed to have an ulterior motive? I think the ferret bounce is one of those clues that point to the right person for the wrong reason. It's only something a good person wouldn't do if your definition of a good person is someone who couldn't do anything seriously wrong. That *is* pretty much Harry's definition of a good person at this point in the saga. Eventually he'll realize that good people, people he loves and respects and wouldn't hesitate to trust, have flaws and may do serious harm. It's part of the burden of an adult wizard to know that goodness is never unalloyed and no one's judgements can be accepted uncritically. That being the case, I think Crouch-Moody was in character and playing his part to the hilt in this instance. He is doing a bad thing, but IMO, it's a bad thing that the real Moody might've done. Judging from McGonagall's reaction, he probably did do similar things in the past. She doesn't say that this is something she wouldn't have expected from him. Instead she demands to know whether Dumbledore didn't tell him this sort of thing wasn't allowed. That implies that it is allowed elsewhere. Of course it would not be realistic if Crouch's impersonation was perfect, so there should be something to give him away. But I think it's in The Egg and the Eye. Just as the real Moody would never have taken Harry away from Dumbledore's protection, the real Moody would not have let Harry go back alone at night to Gryffindor Tower unescorted. Only the murderer would have known that Harry was in no danger from him. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Nov 13 18:58:59 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 13 Nov 2010 18:58:59 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/14/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1289674739.8.11492.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189737 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 14, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 13 22:54:51 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 22:54:51 -0000 Subject: Hate as motivation for murder in canon WAS: Re: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189738 > > Alla: > > > > > Take a look at the contemporary hate crimes, there is a reason why they are called hate crimes IMO. > > Pippin: > Well I suppose that's a topic for OT-Chatter (remember OT-Chatter?) > But why let the other side's rhetoric define the argument? I realize I am going against conventional wisdom here, but If we called them fear crimes, maybe people would not be so ready to brag about them or emulate the perpetrators. Alla: It is only topic for OT chatter if we are talking about something else without ever bringing canon in the conversation, no? And I thought we do bring canon in the conversation. Hm, it is a very interesting suggestion, about calling them fear crimes and I see your point if the point of that exercise is to bring the people who commit them down a notch. However, my point is to argue that such crimes are being committed because of what they feel towards the victims. If you are suggesting that they really fear the victims who end up dead, well then I disagree. > > Alla: > > And Peter killed out of fear? Sure, he did, but I have not noticed him loving those whom he killed. > > Pippin: > He adored James or so we are told, and Harry sees in the Marauders picture no difference between his expression and Lupin's. > > Alla: > Malfoys are capable of love? Sure they are, *between themselves*. I have not noticed Lucius loving muggle borns and muggles, and those are species they aim to kill and yes, I think hate is at least part of his motivations. > > Pippin: > If Lucius had wanted to kill Muggles and Muggleborns he could have, but there is no evidence that he ever did. None of the Malfoys, even Lucius IIRC, ever kill anyone. That's my point. Alla: I am only going to reply briefly, because I did not realize that you subscribe to that school of thought, if you are, our positions are too different and irreconcilable then so could you please clarify? Are you suggesting that Voldemort and his fair gang committed only murders that were described in canon and *nobody else* ever killed muggle and muggleborns unless canon describes it? I do not subscribe to this school of thought, just as I do not need to see Harry, or any of the kids going to the bathroom or brushing their teeth, I do not need to see all the murders done by them. Do you really think that Lucius did not kill anybody? Ever? Do you really think that Snape never killed anybody? Ever? Not while fighting with the Order? Do you think that what they did during the World cup was the only time they did something like that and it always ended without any blood being spilled? To me the murders shown in canon provide a glimpse of their day to day activities, not the whole activities. Same as we are not shown every class which kids have every day, right? > > Alla: > What about Bella besides her being crazy murderer? Whom did she fear? I guess you could say that she feared what she imagined as her Lordie's love or lust for her, but again I see such hatred from her of muggles and muggle borns that I do not understand how you can claim that hate is not a powerful motivator to kill people in canon. > > Pippin: > I didn't say Bella killed out of fear. I'd say she killed like an attack dog, to please her master. Molly had the right word for what she is . Now I'd agree that hatred attracted her to Voldemort in the first place, and she wouldn't have joined him if his program was anti-pureblood or treating people with kindness and respect. But she killed to please him -- she'd have killed her own (hypothetical) sons if he asked her to, and surely their blood would be as pure as hers. Alla: My point is that if we want we can attach ANY number of motives to any of the Death eaters, but to me hate is always always there and I do not need to come up with any additional motives, to me hate is quite enough, although as I said, I agree that in some situations other motives are quite visible too. I just do not see a proof that in any of the situations you described hate is not there. > > > > And again, what about Voldemort? I have not noticed any particular motivation for his killings besides hate. I guess we can assign world domination to him, but that is not mutually exclusive. > > Pippin: > What about him? Well I am not going to be a true LOON and go through every single murder in canon, but let's take the wand shadows as meant to be a representative sample. > > Cedric the pureblood champion and Frank the common Muggle were both killed because they showed up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hate is hardly a factor: if a pureblood wizard had shown up in Frank's stead, he would have died just the same. > > Bertha Jorkins, blood unknown, but by that very token we know she wasn't singled out because of it. Any witch gullible enough to follow Peter into the forest would have done. > > Then there's Lily. And that's really interesting. There's no doubt that Voldemort hates her. She's everything in the world that he hates most: a Dumbledore supporter, a Muggleborn witch married to a pureblood, and she's defied Voldemort not once but three times. But if we don't believe that Voldemort would have spared her, there's no story. Everything hinges on the fact that Voldemort, our star example of hatred, did not feel he had to kill this woman he hated so much. > > And lastly James. Voldemort hated him, of course. But we get to ride along in Voldemort's mind as he is closing in, and it is not hatred that he is thinking about, nor even anger. Instead he is enjoying the feeling of power and control he has. That's what drives him, that's what he gets out of killing. Alla: Yeah, we do differ drastically. Sorry for snipping so much, but please see above. I do not think that those are the only murders he committed. Remember Dumbledore's claim about hurting all those nameless people to keep Harry safe in OOP, when he was eh "apologizing" and telling Harry "everything"? Somebody had to hurt and kill them all, no? Somebody had to kill in order for Aurors to be on their trail and eh if Moody tried to bring people alive but not always managed, probably there were casualties on aurors' side too? No, I am not so sure that he would have spared Lily, and again, maybe I am missing something, but even if he would all that I am saying is that Hate matters for him, hate is where he started. Sure, maybe he can control that hate sometimes when he has other motivations when he wants to please one of his creeps (Snape). That's not my point, I am just saying that I cannot *dismiss* hate as one of the factors and often, not always one of the most powerful ones IMO. Pippin: > Tell me, do you think Voldemort was born hating Muggles? I think he learned to fear them first. When Dumbledore finds him in the orphanage he is not plotting world domination, he is just hoping not to be put in an asylum. Alla: I do not want to get into nature v nurture here, but how does the fact that he fears his abilities transforms into him fearing Muggles first. And yeah I would say JKR tried to make him pretty young sociopath. I would have understand if he was shown trying to hurt his teachers only, but those two kids whom he hurt, he feared them? I do not buy it, sorry. I think it was hate. Sorry for somewhat disjointed response, if any of your points was ignored, was not intentional, just have to run. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 14 02:50:36 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 02:50:36 -0000 Subject: Hate as motivation for murder in canon WAS: Re: Duane: Harry was Right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189739 > Alla: > > It is only topic for OT chatter if we are talking about something else without ever bringing canon in the conversation, no? Pippin: Correct. But I thought some people might want to discuss hate crimes without reference to canon. > Alla: > > I am only going to reply briefly, because I did not realize that you subscribe to that school of thought, if you are, our positions are too different and irreconcilable then so could you please clarify? Are you suggesting that Voldemort and his fair gang committed only murders that were described in canon and *nobody else* ever killed muggle and muggleborns unless canon describes it? Pippin: Not at all. I am suggesting that the killings of Muggles and Muggleborns that we do hear about are typical. Voldemort wants them done for strategic purposes: to send a message to Fudge for example. He's annoyed at Lucius for leading an anti-Muggle riot instead of trying to restore him to power, and I don't think he would have been any less annoyed if the Robertses had been killed. That could certainly have happened, but it would have happened (IMO) either because someone became frightened or careless, or because some people in the crowd already lacked the normal human inhibitions against killing. But I don't think that either history or canon shows that hatred, just by existing, will destroy that inhibition. Hatred definitely stirs aggression, and some people don't need more reason than that to kill. But I think canon shows that most people do. What hate does, I think, is make it easier for people who do lack that inhibition to get away with killing. It's hate that makes people think that the ones who died deserved what they got. So the killers, instead of being made to stop, may keep on killing. Alla: Do you really think that Lucius did not kill anybody? Ever? Do you really think that Snape never killed anybody? Ever? Pippin: I think (and I am not pretending to be any kind of expert on this, so anyone who is, feel free to shoot me down) that human beings, both in real life and in canon, display a strong phobia against killing, which affects all but a small percentage of the population. JKR shows us a few people who clearly do not have such a phobia: Voldemort himself, Bellatrix, Fenrir, and Barty Jr for example . And she shows us Death Eaters who do have it: Snape, accused of always slipping out of action; Narcissa, who makes no move to kill the fox, and Lucius, who only threatens to curse the families of the governors who defy him and has to be stung to rage before he makes a move against Harry. Ginny might have died because of the Diary, but that was not Lucius's purpose. He wanted her alive to take the blame for opening the Chamber so that Arthur would be discredited. I'd say that if JKR intended to portray Lucius as a killer she missed so many opportunities that it's a poorly drawn portrait indeed. She makes it clear that while killing is ordinary behavior for some Death Eaters, it isn't for others. It's not a routine activity which has no thematic or plotline purpose in canon, but we can assume takes place, like brushing teeth. Of course in fiction it's often convenient to suppose that the phobia against killing does not exist and people can kill if they want to without being traumatized. But canon doesn't show this. Peter and Snape are traumatized by the killings they do. Dumbledore is traumatized just by the thought that he might have killed an innocent person, and glad to be reminded that there is this difference between him and Voldemort, that he never lost his reluctance to kill. In real life, armies have to invest quite a bit of training to get their soldiers to kill in combat -- it's not just a matter of teaching them to use their weapons and pointing them at the foes. Otherwise, as I understand it, most of them will just freeze up. > > Alla: > > I do not want to get into nature v nurture here, but how does the fact that he fears his abilities transforms into him fearing Muggles first. And yeah I would say JKR tried to make him pretty young sociopath. I would have understand if he was shown trying to hurt his teachers only, but those two kids whom he hurt, he feared them? I do not buy it, sorry. I think it was hate. > Pippin: We are talking about hate as a motive for murder, not for treating people badly. Voldemort didn't kill those kids. And he wouldn't have feared being put in an asylum if he thought he could easily escape. He feared that Muggles could harm him if they decided he was dangerous enough. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 14 17:55:22 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Nov 2010 17:55:22 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/14/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1289757322.538.73620.m17@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189740 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 14, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 13 00:10:23 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (doctorwhofan02) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:10:23 -0000 Subject: I'm a Newby Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189741 Hi, I am new to the group and am excited to get talking about one of my favorate subjects...Me...or..I mean...Harry Potter :) I am so looking forward to the final movie and at the same time dreading it because I know that will be the end. However has anyone else heard a rumor that J.K. Rowling was planning more Harry Potter books? What do you think about these rumors? doctorwhofan02 From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 13 00:07:29 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (doctorwhofan02) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:07:29 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189742 Katherine wrote: > > Barty Crouch Jr is my favourite character and as so, I have read a lot of ssk7882's fantastic posts. They did enlighten me on some things, but one main question seemed to be unanswered. > > Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? Further to that, what was Barty Jr's childhood like, to lead him to that decision? > > The most canon says about Barty's childhood was in Padfoot Returns, page 459 Sirius says, "Once the boy had died, people started feeling a bit more sympathetic towards him, and started asking how a nice young lad from a good family had gone so badly astray. The conclusion was that his father never much cared for him." > doctorwhofan02: This is how I understood it. It is pointed out that Winky, the house elf was set to look after him when he was found to be alive in The Goblet of Fire. I would presume that, that is probably how he was raised (being looked after by someone other than his father). And it does seem that any way his father rather ignored him as a child. My way of thinking is that he could not please his father or get attention from his father no matter what he did and concluded that if he could not get his father's attention by being good, he would be bad and join Voldemort (oh I'm sorry He who must not be named). It is common with children and teens. Bad attention is better than no attention, so that is what I read into it. Very good subject, I wonder if anyone else has an opinion on it. From CatMcNulty at comcast.net Mon Nov 15 17:32:47 2010 From: CatMcNulty at comcast.net (catmcnulty) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:32:47 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doctorwhofan02" wrote: > doctorwhofan02: > This is how I understood it. It is pointed out that Winky, the > house elf was set to look after him when he was found to be alive > in The Goblet of Fire. I would presume that, that is probably > how he was raised (being looked after by someone other than his > father). And it does seem that any way his father rather ignored > him as a child. My way of thinking is that he could not please his > father or get attention from his father no matter what he did and > concluded that if he could not get his father's attention by being > good, he would be bad and join Voldemort (oh I'm sorry He who must > not be named). It is common with children and teens. Bad attention > is better than no attention, so that is what I read into it. Very > good subject, I wonder if anyone else has an opinion on it. > Greetings All and doctorwhofan02! The development of a despot: The orphanage: At the orphanage Tom Riddle received no affection. He prided himself in being different and "special" (even if he didn't know why) He elevated his own feeling of worth by torturing, intimidating and bullying the other children. At Hogwarts: Tom Riddle developed a very effective technique in gathering followers. He flattered teachers and excelled in developing his "specialness." Dumbledore noted that there was a certain "dark glamour" around him and his followers. And that Tom was never caught in blatant wrong doing at Hogwarts. But the dedicated friends (a precursor to Death Eaters)all enjoyed that "power" by association with the charismatic Tom Riddle. The group of Hogwart hellions was a motley collection of "...the weak seeking protection, the ambitious seeking some shared glory, and the thuggish gravitating toward a leader who could show them more refined forms of cruelty." (HBP US version Page 362) After Hogwarts: It was not only by intimidation and glamour but enticement and manipulation. He gave to others what they lacked and dearly wanted...Power to the powerless, attention to the neglected, etc. With that being said...I think that Barty Crouch Jr. desperately wanted attention from his father and he never received it. Granted Jr. got 12 OWLS and Sr. bragged on it ... but not to Jr. So, obviously Jr. couldn't get attention by doing good so, Jr. decided to get attention by being bad ... Sr. was very involved with his job and by "acting out" Jr got his father's attention (not his approval but...) like you observed ... even BAD attention is attention. Now -- just look at the various members of Harry's generation that fall into the various catagories and would be easily enticed to the "Dark Side": Draco (wants father's attention and approval), Patsy Parkinson (attracted to potential power) Crabb & Goyle (Draco's thuggish stooges), etc. Look at Stan Shunpike a weak one wanting protection and power by association... Now you might observe that he was under a spell when he attacked Harry in DH ... but think also of his boasts to the veela at the Quidittch Match. (You could compare him to Regulus in that he got in so far and got scared ... and as Sirius observed "No one stops being a Death Eater.") What other characters would have likely become a Death Eaters or at least Voldemort followers (like the Black family with their pure-blood mania)if Voldemort had won? Just thinking... Cat From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Mon Nov 15 19:48:54 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:48:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <90960.3968.qm@web113911.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Cat: > > Look at Stan Shunpike a weak one wanting protection and > power by association... Now you might observe that he was > under a spell when he attacked Harry in DH ... but think > also of his boasts to the veela at the Quidditch Match. > (You could compare him to Regulus in that he got in so far > and got scared ... and as Sirius observed "No one stops > being a Death Eater.") June (doctorwhofan02): You and I totally see eye to eye on the Barty Jr subject, but as for Stan Shunpike, I do not agree that he was ever (on his own) a Death Eater. He was under a spell when he was with them in Deathly Hallows and when he first met Harry, he seemed too scared to ever want to be involved with the Death Eaters. No, Stanley is just one of those guys who likes to live vicariously through others and as for the? incident? with the vela, he was under their influence (if you remember Ron even was affected by them) and Stan was just being a normal guy trying to pick up women with tall tales. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 15 21:30:47 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:30:47 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189745 > Nikkalmati wrote: > > > > I do think Barty Sr loved his son, but he neglected him. > > Carol responds: > We have only Sirius's word that he neglected him because, IIRC, he loved his wife more than his son, and, as Potioncat pointed out, Sirius is wrong on almost all counts in that discussion (and he has, understandably, no love for Barty Sr.!). Certainly, Crouch Sr. was obsessed with his job and ridding the WW of Death Eaters by whatever means, but we see in "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" when he's talking to Percy (knowing who Percy is at that point but mistaking the decade)that he's proud of his son, who has just earned twelve OWLs. Pippin: It's Barty's own words that he felt unloved. "My mother saved me. She knew she was dying. She persuaded my father to rescue me as a last favor to her. He loved her as he had never loved me." There's an echo here of the Snape, Lily, Harry dynamic. Snape had no sympathy for Harry, but saved him because of his feelings for Lily. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Nov 16 02:31:20 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 02:31:20 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189746 > > > > > > Caryl Brown wrote: > > > > 1. Did you think about Lupin's mention about the Whomping Willow > being planted the year he arrived at Hogwarts was significant? Did you think the > Whomping Willow being planted over a secret passage would become important? Potioncat; Lupin and Snape both discuss the tree at different times. You'd think either one of them would be glad for it to be destroyed. > 2. Harry has an understandable reluctance to seek help from adults. > Did you find it surprising that he readily confided in Lupin about the Dementors? Potioncat: Harry continued to keep information from Lupin (seeing the Grim, half-wanting to hear his mother's voice). As others have said, Lupin was with Harry when Harry first contacted Dementors. > > > > > 3. From the description of his "sudden motions" during his > discussion with Harry, did you grow suspicious that Lupin might know more than he was letting on? Potioncat: yes, and more so as the years went on. As I read it this time, it just seemed appropriate to what Lupin was hearing Harry say. > > > > > 4. The "passwords" to operate the Maurauder's Map are quite > complicated. How do you think Fred and George figured them out? Potioncat: I used to wonder, but at this reading I saw that the map actually gives Harry the command for opening the witch's hump. And since it can interact with Snape, I think it could interact with anyone who picked it up. I think it may have coaxed the twins on. > > > > > > 9. How did you think Sirius Black was able to remain unaffected by > the Dementors in Azkaban? Potioncat: Clearly he's using Snape's preferred method of dealing with Dementors. Thanks for the discusssion. From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 16 15:58:26 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 07:58:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <60840.80345.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189748 > > Caryl Brown wrote: > > > 9. How did you think Sirius Black was able to remain > > unaffected by the Dementors in Azkaban? > Potioncat: Clearly he's using Snape's preferred method of > dealing with Dementors. June (doctorwhofan02): If you read the book, Sirius explains that he did not know how he did it but that he thought the only reason he did not lose his mind was that he knew he was "innocent" and that isn't a happy thought so the Dementors couldn't suck it out of him. This kept him sane and he was able to keep his powers so that when it all became too much he could transform into a dog. Because the Dementors cannot see, they feel their way toward people by sensing their emotions and could tell that his emotions were less human when he was a dog but thought that was because he was losing his mind. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Nov 17 03:53:40 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 03:53:40 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 10: The Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <60840.80345.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189749 > June (doctorwhofan02): > If you read the book, Sirius explains that he did not know how > he did it but that he thought the only reason he did not lose > his mind was that he knew he was "innocent" and that isn't a > happy thought so the Dementors couldn't suck it out of him. Potioncat: I think Sirius should have spent more time preparing for his DADA exam. But at any rate, Snape may very well use the same technique--with intention rather than dumb luck. That is, to arm himself with a true, stong thought "I'm protecting Harry for Lily" for example. Then whatever spell to go along with it. From lynde at post.com Fri Nov 19 23:43:08 2010 From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:43:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CD565AA73AB5E9-1B24-5AA0@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189750 Katherine wrote: > > Barty Crouch Jr is my favourite character and as so, I have read a lot of ssk7882's fantastic posts. They did enlighten me on some things, but one main question seemed to be unanswered. > > Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? Further to that, what was Barty Jr's childhood like, to lead him to that decision? Lynda: My answer to this question is simple and rather blunt, and therefore may not be appreciated by some people. It's simply this. He joined Voldemort because he was an evil git. His father was distant and perfectionistic. So what. Yes, that can cause problems, but Harry himself was raised in similar, even worse, conditions by the Dursleys and didn't turn out the same way. Dumbledore changed his life upon realizing that his behavior directly led to the death of his sister. Even Dudley had an enlightenment of a sort by the end of the series, as did the Malfoys to an extent. Barty Jr. was just evil. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 20 16:02:42 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 08:02:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <8CD565AA73AB5E9-1B24-5AA0@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <737008.77056.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189752 Lynda: > My answer to this question is simple and rather blunt, and > therefore may not be appreciated by some people. It's simply > this. He joined Voldemort because he was an evil git. His > father was distant and perfectionistic. So what. Yes, that > can cause problems, but Harry himself was raised in similar, > even worse, conditions by the Dursleys and didn't turn out > the same way. Barty Jr. was just evil. June: I don't believe Barty Jr was evil. He didn't get recognition from his father and really wanted it but his father was too busy with his work to bother with Jr so Jr joinned the death eaters to get attention. Bad attention is better than no attention to some people. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Nov 20 18:59:31 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 20 Nov 2010 18:59:31 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/21/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1290279571.500.48732.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189753 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 21, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 21 17:55:24 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 21 Nov 2010 17:55:24 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/21/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1290362124.519.5233.m13@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189754 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 21, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andy at mugglesguide.com Sun Nov 21 21:34:06 2010 From: andy at mugglesguide.com (Andy Mills) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 21:34:06 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <737008.77056.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD565AA73AB5E9-1B24-5AA0@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com> <737008.77056.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1013341956.20101121213406@ajm.me.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 189755 Hello June, > June: > I don't believe Barty Jr was evil. He didn't get recognition > from his father and really wanted it but his father was too > busy with his work to bother with Jr so Jr joinned the death > eaters to get attention. Bad attention is better than no > attention to some people. While I do not believe Barty Jr had a proper and impartial trial, I do believe that he was guilty. Now, he was one of the group that were responsible for torturing the Longbottoms and countless others we do not know of. Barty Jr imprisoned Mad Eye in a bleak and dreary cell for, what, 9 months? Barty Jr orchestrated events to deliver Harry directly into the hands of Voldemort, knowing full well that Voldemort's intent was to kill Harry. Okay, maybe he started out trying to get his father's attention, and perhaps later he's trying to get the recognition from Voldemort that he could not get from his own father. But his actions are not those of a good person, and as someone else pointed out, others have had a bad upbringing (like Harry) and even Dudley and Draco showed some "good" towards the end. TTFN -- Andy Mills From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Nov 22 02:58:04 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 02:58:04 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <1013341956.20101121213406@ajm.me.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189756 > > June: > > I don't believe Barty Jr was evil. He didn't get recognition > > from his father and really wanted it but his father was too > > busy with his work to bother with Jr so Jr joinned the death > > eaters to get attention. Bad attention is better than no > > attention to some people. Andy: > > But his actions are not those of a good person, and as someone else > pointed out, others have had a bad upbringing (like Harry) and even > Dudley and Draco showed some "good" towards the end. Potioncat, The question is a good one--but there seem to be only 2 answers proposed on this list --somewhat represented by the posts I snipped above (the 2 most recent in this thread) A--Barty Sr. was a bad dad or B-Barty Jr was a bad boy I haven't read the books recently enough to remember any canon around the Crouch family. And I'm not sure the books tell us what really happened. At best I think it's a blend of those two ideas--it was a little bit of who Barty was and a little bit of his family dynamics. Of course, that's just me, I don't think it should be a choice between nature or nurture but rather a combination of nature and nurture. We could look at an opposite family for a aimilar question. What made Sirius Black join Dumbledore? Did his parents do something wrong in the way they raised him (I'm sure they were just as disappointed as Barty Sr was) or was it just Sirius's nature to rebel, or to choose a different path? Was he simply rebelling, or did he truely reject his family's beliefs? JKR shows us several families with sons who made choices, and she tells us it's our choices that reveal(determine?) who we are. So maybe Barty was a bad boy. Of course, to me the really interesting question is "Why did Severus Snape join LV?" If anyone had good reasons to reject the DE way of life, he did. From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Nov 22 04:27:44 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 04:27:44 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189757 > > Pippin: > It's Barty's own words that he felt unloved. "My mother saved me. She knew she was dying. She persuaded my father to rescue me as a last favor to her. He loved her as he had never loved me." > > There's an echo here of the Snape, Lily, Harry dynamic. Snape had no sympathy for Harry, but saved him because of his feelings for Lily. > > Pippin > Nikkalmati I believe this is a good observation. Snape had a reason to hate Harry, not just because Harry's father had been cruel to him, but because Harry was the reason for his mother's death(not saying it was a good reason). As I pointed out long ago, on occasion, fathers have been know to hate their own child, if the mother died in childbirth. If Lily had not been determined to save Harry, she would not have died. Of course, Snape loved Lily and not Harry, just as Crouch Sr loved his wife and (as his son thought) not his son. The dynamic between fathers and sons and mothers and their children is a persistent theme in the novels. It will even make someone a good thesis someday. Nikkalmati From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Mon Nov 22 16:55:48 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:55:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163036.75312.qm@web113914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189758 Andy: > But his actions are not those of a good person, and as someone > else pointed out, others have had a bad upbringing (like Harry) > and even Dudley and Draco showed some "good" towards the end. Potioncat: > At best I think it's a blend of those two ideas--it was > a little bit of who Barty was and a little bit of his family > dynamics. Of course, that's just me, I don't think it should > be a choice between nature or nurture but rather a combination > of nature and nurture. > > Of course, to me the really interesting question is "Why did > Severus Snape join LV?" If anyone had good reasons to reject > the DE way of life, he did. June: That is a very good point you made Andy, about Barty sr and jr (are you really Dr Phil lol), I think you may be on to some thing. Maybe Jr had it in him to be evil but maybe if Sr had treated him like he was worth some thing to him he may have gone the other way. I believe we all have it in us to be good or bad and it is up to us which one we become and some times the way we go has a lot to do with the way we are loved. As for Snape I think he went to Voldemort because he was power hungry and probably felt betrayed by the fact that the woman he loved had married his enemy. From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Mon Nov 22 17:00:56 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 09:00:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dudely (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <1013341956.20101121213406@ajm.me.uk> Message-ID: <206706.30846.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189759 Andy: > But his actions are not those of a good person, and as someone > else pointed out, others have had a bad upbringing (like Harry) > and even Dudley and Draco showed some "good" towards the end. June: Personally I don't think Dudley was bad at all. He only behaved the way he did because his parents made him (part of what Dumbledore had in mind when he said his parents had abused him). I think Dudley actually wished he could be like Harry just as Petunia wished she could have been like her sister. The hatred was a cover. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Mon Nov 22 18:30:52 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:30:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudely (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <206706.30846.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <206706.30846.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CEAB6DC.4050200@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 189760 > June: > Personally I don't think Dudley was bad at all. He only behaved > the way he did because his parents made him (part of what > Dumbledore had in mind when he said his parents had abused him). > I think Dudley actually wished he could be like Harry just as > Petunia wished she could have been like her sister. The hatred > was a cover. Dudley illustrates the problem with calling someone "bad". There's a fine line between "bratty or bully" and truly "bad or evil". The books are very clear that Dudley had a gang, and for fun they beat up people. That's on the path to bad. Progress to a grown up doing the same thing, and he's evil. It's definitely a path, one that left unchecked would have lead to adult crimes and jail time. His parents "abused him" by giving him everything he wanted, and never bothered to discipline him. I don't think his parents "made him" a brat or a bully, but rather saw very clearly that their son was a brat, and encouraged it by enabling it to happen. We see Dudley trashing all his toys, and never a correction from his parents. Every time they issue an excuse such as "boys will be boys" or some-such nonsense, they enable that bad behavior, and take Dudley to take another step to being truly bad. I think we see very clearly that Dudley can learn, he is teachable, even if his parents won't do it. He learns through Harry and that experience with the Dementors. He learns what it is to be on the receiving end of pain and humiliation, and I think gets a very clear picture that Harry's struggle will be about life and death, and than when it comes down to it, bullying isn't fun anymore once he gets that reality. When the family separates, we see Dudley mature years in a single setting- he realizes that he and his parents will go to safety, and that Harry will go to fight for his life. I just wish the epilogue had Harry mention something about visiting Dudley before his (Dudley's) oldest has to head off for school the following week, or something that said that relationship had been mended for good. Shelley From k12listmomma at comcast.net Mon Nov 22 18:57:00 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:57:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <737008.77056.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <737008.77056.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CEABCFC.1030200@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 189761 > June: > I don't believe Barty Jr was evil. He didn't get recognition from his > father and really wanted it but his father was too busy with his work > to bother with Jr so Jr joinned the death eaters to get attention. Bad > attention is better than no attention to some people. I don't think Barty Jr was evil, either. I think he comes from an intelligent family, one who knows power and how to manipulate. You have a dad who is overbearing and unpleased, and a son who is determined to succeed. Denied the opportunity to succeed at something "good", he finds another opportunity to succeed. He's not thinking "I want to go the evil route", rather he's thinking how he can be somebody and throws himself fully into that job, just as his dad does his own job at the ministry. I see a parallel between him and his dad, and given a "no Voldemort" world, they both would have been politicians and people-manipulators, each justifying their means by the ends produced. The mom is a checking force- telling Barty Sr that he's going too far in condemning their son, but in reality he's been going to far for quite some time before that without being checked on it. People "allow" it out of fear of Voldemort. (Dumbledore sees the problem in going too far, and is a voice of reason, but he's overlooked.) True to form for a manipulator, Barty Sr thinks he can just keep controlling his son forever. He fails to realize that his son has every bit as much as inner strength as he does, and moreover, has a stronger reason to persist- desire to get his own free will back. Like dad, like son- not evil but corruptible in their desire for power and drive to make happen what they think should happen, even if other people pay for it. In this story, I almost hate the dad more, and for Barty Jr I have great sympathy. The dad could have steered him right had he not been blinded by his own drive and ambition. Shelley From bart at moosewise.com Mon Nov 22 19:20:06 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:20:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudely (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <4CEAB6DC.4050200@comcast.net> References: <206706.30846.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CEAB6DC.4050200@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CEAC266.6020704@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189762 On 11/22/2010 1:30 PM, Shelley wrote: > His parents "abused him" by > giving him everything he wanted, and never bothered to discipline him. > I don't think his parents "made him" a brat or a bully, but rather saw > very clearly that their son was a brat, and encouraged it by enabling it > to happen. We see Dudley trashing all his toys, and never a correction > from his parents. Every time they issue an excuse such as "boys will be > boys" or some-such nonsense, they enable that bad behavior, and take > Dudley to take another step to being truly bad. It's more than that; his parents, particularly Vernon, ENCOURAGED him to be a bully. Vernon is depicted as a predatory businessman (note that the only predatory businesspeople shown in the WW are the ones in Knockturn Alley), who believes that the best way to success is to knock everybody else down and take what's theirs. I recall, years ago, a Chinese buffet opening up near me that actually served fairly high quality food (to answer the question, "How could they afford to do that?", the answer unfortunately turned out to be, "They couldn't."). This meant that fresh food came out a bit more slowly than it might in other buffets. One time, when a fresh platter of orange flavored chicken came out, a girl, about 10 years old, took a couple of plates and piled the whole platter on to it, leaving nothing for everybody else. When she came to the table, instead of admonishing her greed, her family praised her effort; they only ate about half of it, but she made sure that they had all of it and nobody else did. In other words, the Dursley's didn't just ignore Dudley's bullying behavior. They ENCOURAGED it. It is interesting that the contact with the Dementor managed to activate Dudley's conscience; perhaps the Wizards of Az actually DID know what they were doing. Nah, not when possibly innocent people are being put in danger of losing their souls, and the fanatically evil have no problem retaining their powers even when there for over a decade. Bart From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 23 00:31:19 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 00:31:19 -0000 Subject: Dudely (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <206706.30846.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189763 > June: > Personally I don't think Dudley was bad at all. He only behaved > the way he did because his parents made him (part of what > Dumbledore had in mind when he said his parents had abused him). > I think Dudley actually wished he could be like Harry just as > Petunia wished she could have been like her sister. The hatred > was a cover. > Carol responds: I don't wholly agree. Yes, certainly, his parents spoiled him, but Dudley was acting like a brat even as a toddler, kicking his mother and screaming for "sweets" (behavior that sensible parents would have nipped in the bud)--and that was before Petunia discovered Harry. And why Dudley would want to be like a skinny, unpopular oddball in over-large clothing (shades of Severus Snape!), I don't know. When Dudley grew older, he certainly knew that it was wrong to bully and beat up ten-year-olds (Mark Evans). I agree that he became what he was because his parents indulged him, but he was not faultless himself. Even small children know when they're misbehaving and getting away with it. As for hatred of Harry being a cover, who knows? I think he somehow had an epiphany regarding Harry and realized that his behavior was wrong, not to mention that Harry saved his "life" (soul). So he had good in him and the potential to become other than he was, but he lacked the strength of character or the intelligence to see that his father's example and his mother's fearful indulgence of him were harming him. Carol, who nevertheless sympathizes with Dudley, the helpless Muggle, when the Twins give him a taste of *magical* bullying From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Nov 23 15:38:21 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:38:21 -0000 Subject: Predatory Businesspeople in the WW was Dudely In-Reply-To: <4CEAC266.6020704@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: Vernon is depicted as a predatory businessman (note > that the only predatory businesspeople shown in the WW are the ones in > Knockturn Alley), who believes that the best way to success is to knock > everybody else down and take what's theirs. Pippin: Predatory businesspeople are found other places in the WW besides Knockturn Alley. Hogwarts, for example, where Neville and other gullible souls are sold fraudulent charms to protect them from Slytherin's Monster. There's a black market in equally fraudulent charms to help people pass their OWLS, and in HBP phony anti-dark wares were hawked on Diagon Alley itself. Then there's Ludo Bagman and his goblin backers, not to mention Horace Slughorn and his sideline in potions ingredients obtained from Hagrid who seemed to be as ignorant of their market value as poor Merope was of her locket's. I will say that the Twins are shown as honest in their dealings with their customers and suppliers, but that doesn't extend to seeing that the suppliers and customers themselves are above-board. They don't ask too many questions of either. Pippin From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 23 17:48:13 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:48:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Predatory Businesspeople in the WW was Dudley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <812354.73986.qm@web113903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Pippin: Predatory businesspeople are found other places in the WW besides Knockturn Alley. Hogwarts, for example, where Neville and other gullible souls are sold fraudulent charms to protect them from Slytherin's Monster. There's a black market in equally fraudulent charms to help people pass their OWLS, and in HBP phony anti-dark wares were hawked on Diagon Alley itself. June: At the school I would say that the kids selling this stuff were future? predatory?businessmen lol. It is true about Slughorn too but he was a Slytherin and they are known to get what they want by any means nessasary. Nice guy that Slughorn but a true Slytherin lol From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 23 01:18:46 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:18:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dudley (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <346523.74940.qm@web113916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189766 > June: > Personally I don't think Dudley was bad at all. He only behaved > the way he did because his parents made him (part of what > Dumbledore had in mind when he said his parents had abused him). Carol responds: I don't wholly agree. Yes, certainly, his parents spoiled him, but Dudley was acting like a brat even as a toddler, kicking his mother and screaming for "sweets" I agree that he became what he was because his parents indulged him, but he was not faultless himself. June: Children are the products of their parents. If a parent spoils and allows a child to get away with things the child will take advantage of it in all aspects of life. Petunia we know wanted to go to Hogwarts and turned against her sister and magic because she was not accepted at Hogwarts but she did not really dislike her sister. Dudly and Harry were a simular situation. Dudley the older of two that were brought up as brothers wanted what his younger brother/cousin was able to accomplish. Also he states to Harry in Deathly Hallows that he did actually like him so obviously the Dursleys made him hide that. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 23 22:06:13 2010 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 22:06:13 -0000 Subject: Dudley (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <346523.74940.qm@web113916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189767 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing wrote: June: > > Personally I don't think Dudley was bad at all. He only behaved > > the way he did because his parents made him (part of what > > Dumbledore had in mind when he said his parents had abused him). Carol: > I don't wholly agree. Yes, certainly, his parents spoiled him, but Dudley was acting like a brat even as a toddler, kicking his mother and screaming for "sweets" > > I agree that he became what he was because his parents indulged him, but he was not faultless himself. June: > Children are the products of their parents. If a parent spoils and allows a child to get away with things the child will take advantage of it in all aspects of life. Geoff: Speaking from experience of teaching teenage pupils in a South London secondary school - later High School - and being involved with youth work, mainly boys' clubs in the couple of churches with which I and my wife have worked over 35 years, I am inclined to lean to June's view. Very often, when we came up against a difficult child, if you investigated his or her background, it often emerged not necessarily in conversation but by observation, that the parents were not prepared to spend time individually with their children but developed an attitude that if they gave children things which they asked for, their needs were met and all was well. If Johnny wanted a bike, Johnny had a bike. If Joanne wanted a new dress, Joanne had a new dress. The result was a child who expected the world to revolve round them and became ill-disciplined, confrontational and downright awkward when asked to do something which didn't "grab" them (such as a lesson in a subject they didn't like) or to work as a member of a group. I think that these children were not necessarily inherently awful but were the products of their environment and often were being used by their parents for their own ends. Just as a side point here, I see Draco Malfoy as being in this category. I have in the past said that I have a sneaking sympathy for him and see him as a rather unloved boy given "things" to keep him happy and used as a tool to further the glory of the Malfoy house. It is little wonder that, at their first meeting, he expected Harry to snap to attention and fawn at his feet; it must have been a cataclysmic shock to discover that Harry didn't know who he was and didn't immediately rush to his side. Returning to school it was also interesting that if parents were called in because of their child's misbehaviour, parents would leap to their defence: their child was a model of decorum; it was the awful kids in the rest of the class; the teachers ought to be controlling their classes; they were unjustly being made scapegoats and so on and so on.... Another thought along these lines was what I called "the Bannister Theory of Unusual Names". If a child had an unusual first name, they were quite often difficult and spoiled. One of the few students who ever assaulted me physically was a boy called Raemond; children such as Chelsea, Tarquin, Sexton or Quentin were often pains in the neck (or other regions) - although some names have become more common as years have passed. Again, some parents have inflicted names on their offspring without considering how the recipients might view these in later years and have only done it again to please themselves and perhaps polish their own egos. I remember being told by a colleague who went to a degree ceremony where full names were read out - including middle names - and found out that a friend who she knew as Crystal Lear had a middle name of Shanda. Which parent with any thought or love would inflict that on a child? The result sometimes is that the child can become a disaster waiting to happen when he or she comes into contact (and conflict) with the world outside that of their family and they cannot rise above the mischief wrought at home. It is not until late - possibly too late? - that Dudley Dursley tries to make his own peace with Harry and it takes a traumatic event to trigger this. From CatMcNulty at comcast.net Tue Nov 23 18:30:38 2010 From: CatMcNulty at comcast.net (catmcnulty) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 18:30:38 -0000 Subject: HP7 - SPOILER Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189768 I have been reading everyone's comments about parts they liked and disliked ... I am not going to repeat what has already been discussed (I hope). There is a moment that just haunts me, and I wonder why they left Mad-Eye's eye in Umbrage's door? I liked the book's solution and the honor with which Harry treated the moment. It was like what he did with Dobby. Also,what was with Runcorn's funny little walk? Yes, he was supposed to be Harry but he looked like he was trying to do a Monty Python skit ... Remember the bureau of "Funny Walks"? Very odd. Cat >^-.-^< From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 24 08:30:09 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:30:09 -0000 Subject: HP7 - SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catmcnulty" wrote: > > I have been reading everyone's comments about parts they liked and disliked ... I am not going to repeat what has already been discussed (I hope). There is a moment that just haunts me, and I wonder why they left Mad-Eye's eye in Umbrage's door? I liked the book's solution and the honor with which Harry treated the moment. It was like what he did with Dobby. > > Also,what was with Runcorn's funny little walk? Yes, he was supposed to be Harry but he looked like he was trying to do a Monty Python skit ... Remember the bureau of "Funny Walks"? Very odd. > > Cat >^-.-^< > AmanitaMuscaria now - Agreed - I'm not sure wwhy they didn't follow the book there; I thought the scene in the book very much pointed up Harry's character, that he could distance himself from the idea of False!Moody, who, of course, he had much more time with, and offer respect to True!Moody. It wouldn't have taken more than a quick flashback to Moody herding them all indoors, then him taking the eye. But then, the film had Harry leaving the Snitch several times, and the thing acted like a homing pigeon. In the book, he valued Dumbledore's legacy much more. It wasn't just Runcorn's walk; it looked to me like he was robot-dancing some of the time. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Nov 25 02:34:11 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 02:34:11 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <163036.75312.qm@web113914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189770 > June: As for Snape I think he went > to Voldemort because he was power hungry and probably felt betrayed > by the fact that the woman he loved had married his enemy. Potioncat: I don't think Snape was power hungry. When he argues with Harry and Sirius on the train, it's knowledge he attributes to Slytherins and later he pays a great deal of time and attention to his OWLS. As an adult--and even as a teen--he seems to want respect. From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Wed Nov 24 00:43:09 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:43:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP7 - SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <495770.77746.qm@web113911.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189771 Cat: > There is a moment that just haunts me, and I wonder why > they left Mad-Eye's eye in Umbrage's door? I liked the book's > solution and the honor with which Harry treated the moment. It > was like what he did with Dobby. June: I wondered about the eye myself. Maybe Warner Bros just didn't see it as important but I thought it said some thing about what Harry felt about Mad Eye when in the book he took Mad Eye's eye and buried it. From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Thu Nov 25 15:47:10 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 07:47:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <331437.503.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189772 Potioncat: I don't think Snape was power hungry. When he argues with Harry and Sirius on the train, it's knowledge he attributes to Slytherins and later he pays a great deal of time and attention to his OWLS. As an adult--and even as a teen--he seems to want respect. June: I do not remember an argument between Snape, Harry and Sirius on a train and I have read all the books more times than I can remember. Could you please tell me where that scene is? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 25 17:22:35 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:22:35 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189773 > Nikkalmati > > I believe this is a good observation. Snape had a reason to hate Harry, not just because Harry's father had been cruel to him, but because Harry was the reason for his mother's death(not saying it was a good reason). As I pointed out long ago, on occasion, fathers have been know to hate their own child, if the mother died in childbirth. If Lily had not been determined to save Harry, she would not have died. Of course, Snape loved Lily and not Harry, just as Crouch Sr loved his wife and (as his son thought) not his son. The dynamic between fathers and sons and mothers and their children is a persistent theme in the novels. It will even make someone a good thesis someday. > Alla: I definitely agree that this is not a good reason to hate a child for, but what I want to ask is how do we know that this is a reason at all? Lily was not going to die because Voldemort said so? The liar of all liars in the books was going to keep his word? I am just really not sure about that. Voldemort said a lot of things in the novels and we know that some of them were not true, and JKR herself said he was a liar. Why should we believe Voldemort? For all I know he wanted Lily to stand back simply because it would have been easier to kill Harry first and then to kill her. Moreover, we ALREADY know that he did not keep his word to Snape. He did not tell him, oh Severus I will ONLY keep her alive if she would not try to keep me from killing her son, he agreed to keep her alive period as far as we know, right? He did not. And for some reason we think that her standing aside would have been enough? I am not really buying it. JMO, Alla. From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 25 17:36:21 2010 From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:36:21 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 11: The Fir Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189774 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 11: The Firebolt We see Harry's reaction to the information about Black. Ron and Hermione are worried about him, they all go to see Hagrid, where they discover that Buckbeak might be executed. Harry receives the Firebolt as a Christmas present. Harry and Ron are ecstatic, while Hermione is concerned. The Sneakoscope goes off when Crookshanks tries to get Scabbers. Scabbers looks very poorly. They all have Christmas dinner; even Prof. Trelawney joins them. Afterwards, Prof. McGonagall comes to the Gryffindor common room and confiscates the Firebolt. Questions: When Harry imagined Black with Voldemort, did you think it was just Harry's imagination? What did you think when the Sneakoscope went off? Did you think Trelawney's 'when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die' saying was real? What did you think of the other teachers' reactions to Trelawney? Did you think the Firebolt could have been sent by Sirius Black? Why did the fact it was anonymous disturb everyone so much? What is JKR saying about fairness, that Harry receives the Firebolt, or that Malfoy senior is allowed to buy international-standard brooms for the Slytherins? This chapter is full of interrupted scenes - can you remember what impression the chapter had on you when you first read it? Cheers, AM NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 12 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrates! :) From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Thu Nov 25 18:49:32 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 10:49:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39454.80771.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189775 Alla: Lily was not going to die because Voldemort said so? The liar of all liars in the books was going to keep his word? I am just really not sure about that. Voldemort said a lot of things in the novels and we know that some of them were not true, and JKR herself said he was a liar. Why should we believe Voldemort? For all I know he wanted Lily to stand back simply because it would have been easier to kill Harry first and then to kill her. June I agree with Alla. I doubt Voldemort had any intention at all of keeping Lily alive, not even for Snape who was the one to give Voldemort the information that led to the killing of the Potters. Voldemort did not have friends and he did not want friends so he would not care about telling the truth to anyone. After all let's not forget that after all the help Quarell gave him, he just left him to die. From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Thu Nov 25 18:32:20 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 10:32:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 11: The Fir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <109496.94713.qm@web113908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189776 When Harry imagined Black with Voldemort, did you think it was just Harry's imagination? June Yes it was Harry's imagination because it had been put into his head that Sirius had worked with Voldemort. What did you think when the Sneakoscope went off? June The Sneakoscope went off every time Scabbers was around because Scabbers was not what he pretended to be. He was Peter Petigrew and if you look back to the times the Sneakoscope went off Scabbers was always there. Did you think Trelawney's 'when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die' saying was real? What did you think of the other teachers' reactions to Trelawney? June I do not think it is real. Just silly superstition. I am with Hermione and Professor McGonagal in thinking that Devination is a dodgy subject. Did you think the Firebolt could have been sent by Sirius Black? Why did the fact it was anonymous disturb everyone so much? June The Firebolt was sent by Sirius Black. I suspected that in the first place and it turned out to be true. The reason everyone was concerned about the anonymous gift was because they (thought) Sirius was out to get Harry and the broom could be a way of getting to him. They thought (as Hermione stated) that it could be jinxed. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Nov 26 00:04:43 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 00:04:43 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189777 Alla: For all I know he wanted Lily to stand back simply because it would have been easier to kill Harry first and then to kill her. Moreover, we ALREADY know that he did not keep his word to Snape. He did not tell him, oh Severus I will ONLY keep her alive if she would not try to keep me from killing her son, he agreed to keep her alive period as far as we know, right? He did not. And for some reason we think that her standing aside would have been enough? > Pippin: Don't we have his very own thoughts in DH? IIRC, he was planning what he was going to do as he went towards Godric's Hollow, and telling himself that he wasn't going to kill Lily unless she made trouble. There isn't much point in JKR giving us Voldie's thoughts if they don't tell us what he's really thinking. Voldemort was not under some compulsion to kill every Muggle and Muggleborn who crossed his path, not if he had a use for them, and he had a use for Lily. Pippin From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 02:14:22 2010 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:14:22 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Alla: > For all I know he wanted Lily to stand back simply because it would have been easier to kill Harry first and then to kill her. Moreover, we ALREADY know that he did not keep his word to Snape. He did not tell him, oh Severus I will ONLY keep her alive if she would not try to keep me from killing her son, he agreed to keep her alive period as far as we know, right? He did not. And for some reason we think that her standing aside would have been enough? > > > Pippin: > Don't we have his very own thoughts in DH? IIRC, he was planning what he was going to do as he went towards Godric's Hollow, and telling himself that he wasn't going to kill Lily unless she made trouble. There isn't much point in JKR giving us Voldie's thoughts if they don't tell us what he's really thinking. > > Voldemort was not under some compulsion to kill every Muggle and Muggleborn who crossed his path, not if he had a use for them, and he had a use for Lily. > > Pippin > Annemehr: What Pippin said - and not only that, but it turned out that the fact LV was going to let Lily live - that Lily really did make the choice - was the source of the magical protection that Harry had. Back in the day, when I and many others were still theorizing alternative reasons for why the AK failed, I certainly believed Voldemort would have killed Lily anyway. But now we know he wouldn't have. From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 00:49:21 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:49:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Intentions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <922274.10545.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189779 Alla: For all I know he wanted Lily to stand back simply because it would have been easier to kill Harry first and then to kill her. Moreover, we ALREADY know that he did not keep his word to Snape. He did not tell him, oh Severus I will ONLY keep her alive if she would not try to keep me from killing her son, he agreed to keep her alive period as far as we know, right? He did not. And for some reason we think that her standing aside would have been enough? > Pippin: Don't we have his very own thoughts in DH? IIRC, he was planning what he was going to do as he went towards Godric's Hollow, and telling himself that he wasn't going to kill Lily unless she made trouble. There isn't much point in JKR giving us Voldie's thoughts if they don't tell us what he's really thinking. Voldemort was not under some compulsion to kill every Muggle and Muggleborn who crossed his path, not if he had a use for them, and he had a use for Lily. luirhys: I agree here. DH gives us a glimpse on LV's thoughts about that faithful night. And let me just state that if LV DID plan on killing Lily, the blood protection sacrifice thingy would not have worked. JK stated that it is the fact that she could've lived and chose not to (in order to protect her son) that made the protection work. Which means that LV was and did intend to give her that choice.I'll try looking for that interview. Makes me wonder though, why LV chose to honor Snape's request. I'm sure at this point in time, he wasn't his right-hand man. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 02:38:57 2010 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:38:57 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189780 Pippin: Don't we have his very own thoughts in DH? IIRC, he was planning what he was going to do as he went towards Godric's Hollow, and telling himself that he wasn't going to kill Lily unless she made trouble. There isn't much point in JKR giving us Voldie's thoughts if they don't tell us what he's really thinking. Voldemort was not under some compulsion to kill every Muggle and Muggleborn who crossed his path, not if he had a use for them, and he had a use for Lily. Alla: Of course he was not under compulsion to kill every Muggle and Muggleborn who crossed his path. But him having use for Lily is actually news for me. What use did he have for her??? You mean giving her to Snape for his pleasures? If this is the use that he had for her, I am aware of his promise to Snape of course. Except as I said I do not remember his promise to Snape being conditional upon Lily causing trouble and he broke that, didn't he? I vaguely, very vaguely remember his thoughts, so I am sure you are right, we do have them, except as I also mentioned before I am a very big advocate of taking characters' words, thoughts as truth in canon, because as you said why would JKR show them to us? Only Voldemorts thoughts and words for me is an exception to that, I will never take them as truth, unless collaborated by other witnesses. This is a creature who had deluded himself that he is deserving to rule over wizard kind that muggle borns are lesser beings, etc, etc, etc, why would I take anything he is thinking or saying as truth? It MAY be a truth, sure, I doubt that he meant to say lies all the time, but I think I have every reason to be skeptical about any of his thoughts. Annemehr: What Pippin said - and not only that, but it turned out that the fact LV was going to let Lily live - that Lily really did make the choice - was the source of the magical protection that Harry had. Back in the day, when I and many others were still theorizing alternative reasons for why the AK failed, I certainly believed Voldemort would have killed Lily anyway. But now we know he wouldn't have. Alla: You are absolutely right, of course, if Lily did not have a choice the protection would not have worked, only for me this is not necessarily means that Voldemort was not going to kill her. The choice as I read it was over fight for her son's life or stand aside at that moment. It does not follow for me that after moment passed she would have still been alive. From peppermintpattie4 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 01:02:53 2010 From: peppermintpattie4 at yahoo.com (patricia bindrim) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP7 - SPOILER In-Reply-To: <495770.77746.qm@web113911.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <265100.29595.qm@web112507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189781 Cat: > There is a moment that just haunts me, and I wonder why > they left Mad-Eye's eye in Umbrage's door? I liked the book's > solution and the honor with which Harry treated the moment. It > was like what he did with Dobby. Patricia: Mad-eye's eye was not left in the door after Harry visited Umbridge's door, Harry took it with him in the book and in the movie and left it in the woods were he buried it. That is my take on this issue. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Nov 26 12:15:20 2010 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:15:20 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <331437.503.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189782 . > > June: > I do not remember an argument between Snape, Harry and Sirius on a train and I have read all the books more times than I can remember. Could you please tell me where that scene is? > Potioncat: The discussion takes place in DH, chapter 33, the Prince's Tale. However, much as Severus and Sirius often do--I've confused James for Harry. That is, I meant James, not Harry in the earlier post. James has just expressed his opinion about Slytherin, and Severus counters that Slytherin in brainy while Gryffindor is brawny. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 17:19:57 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 17:19:57 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <39454.80771.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189783 Alla wrote: > > Lily was not going to die because Voldemort said so? The liar of all liars in the books was going to keep his word? I am just really not sure about that. Voldemort said a lot of things in the novels and we know that some of them were not true, and JKR herself said he was a liar. Why should we believe Voldemort? For all I know he wanted Lily to stand back simply because it would have been easier to kill Harry first and then to kill her. > > > June wrote: > I agree with Alla. I doubt Voldemort had any intention at all of keeping Lily alive, not even for Snape who was the one to give Voldemort the information that led to the killing of the Potters. > Carol responds: If we consider the interviews as valid, JKR says otherwise. Unless Voldemort intended to keep his word, the love magic would not have worked. Lily *has* to trade her life for Harry's--a true sacrifice--or there's no love magic, only a double murder that LV intended all along. Personally, I don't think Voldemort hated Lily. He merely held her in contempt as a "Muggle" ("your Muggle mother," Diary!Tom calls her in speaking to Harry). Her death was unnecessary (just like that of the little boy he decides not to kill on the way to the Potters'); he could simply have Stunned her when she refused to stand back. Had he done so, and kept his word, he could have killed Harry. The whole point of the scene is that she could have lived (as Voldemort says several times) but chose to die. Other mothers died in the books and their children died along with them (the Muggle mother in DH, the McKinnon family, even, IIRC, a Goblin family in DH) because no love magic was involved and no promise was broken. Carol, noting that in the flashback in DH, Voldemort debates with himself over killing Lily, indicating that he did *not* intend to kill her all along Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 17:27:11 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 17:27:11 -0000 Subject: HP7 - SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catmcnulty" wrote: > > I have been reading everyone's comments about parts they liked and disliked ... I am not going to repeat what has already been discussed (I hope). There is a moment that just haunts me, and I wonder why they left Mad-Eye's eye in Umbrage's door? I liked the book's solution and the honor with which Harry treated the moment. It was like what he did with Dobby. > Carol responds: Are we discussing the films on this list now? I ignored the spoiler warning because I thought it was for the few newbies on the list who might not have read the books! May I request that we discuss the films on the Movie list? (Okay, List Elves?) I haven't yet seen the new movie, and I really didn't want to know these details. Thanks, Carol From hiscountrygirl72310 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 19:18:56 2010 From: hiscountrygirl72310 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Blough) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 19:18:56 -0000 Subject: Newbie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189785 Hey yall!! I'm new to this group and thought I would say hello. I've been a harry potter fan since the books first came out. I've seen every movie and have read every book. My daughter is also a fan. I hope to talk to yall soon! Stephanie From CatMcNulty at comcast.net Fri Nov 26 20:00:37 2010 From: CatMcNulty at comcast.net (catmcnulty) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 20:00:37 -0000 Subject: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <331437.503.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189786 > Potioncat: > I don't think Snape was power hungry. When he argues with Harry and Sirius on the train, it's knowledge he attributes to Slytherins and later he pays a great deal of time and attention to his OWLS. As an adult--and even as a teen--he seems to want respect. > > June: > I do not remember an argument between Snape, Harry and Sirius on a train and I have read all the books more times than I can remember. > Could you please tell me where that scene is? Cat Says: I think that was just a simple "mis-speak" Severus was talking to Sirius and JAMES on the train on their first trip to Hogwarts. BTW - Sirius made the same mistake in the Order of the Phoenix. During the fight scene Sirius said "Good one James!" From bart at moosewise.com Sat Nov 27 04:52:31 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:52:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Intentions In-Reply-To: <922274.10545.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <922274.10545.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CF08E8F.4000705@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189787 luirhys: > Makes me wonder though, why LV chose to honor Snape's request. I'm sure at this > point in time, he wasn't his right-hand man. Bart: Assuming Morty's on the sociopathic/psychopathic spectrum (not a difficult assumption, especially since it's the literary version of the condition), it makes eminent sense. Snape was always extremely talented in the black arts. He had a lot of potential as a tool to Morty. Morty wanted to kill the baby, but Lily Potter was no obstacle. She was, however, potentially useful as a way of imparting a sense of debt into Snape, which, in turn, would be of use to Morty. So, Morty was willing to let her live, unless she proved to be more trouble than she was worth. Which she did. Bart From kelleyscorpio at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 07:13:50 2010 From: kelleyscorpio at gmail.com (kelleyelf) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 07:13:50 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Movie discussion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189788 Hi, everyone-- Sorry, but we do still ask that movie discussion take place on the Movie group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-Movie Thank you! --Kelley, for the list elves From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 27 14:23:15 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 06:23:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Intentions In-Reply-To: <4CF08E8F.4000705@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <344269.98223.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Bart: Assuming Morty's on the sociopathic/psychopathic spectrum (not a difficult assumption, especially since it's the literary version of the condition), it makes eminent sense. Snape was always extremely talented in the black arts. He had a lot of potential as a tool to Morty. Morty wanted to kill the baby, but Lily Potter was no obstacle. She was, however, potentially useful as a way of imparting a sense of debt into Snape, which, in turn, would be of use to Morty. So, Morty was willing to let her live, unless she proved to be more trouble than she was worth. Which she did. June: If Voldemort really wanted to keep?Lily alive for Snape he could have.? She was standing in front of Harry unarmed, he could have used any number of spells to get her out of the way unharmed. Whether his intentions were to keep her alive or not I think in the heat of the moment he just decided he wanted to kill her and did. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Nov 27 18:01:02 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 18:01:02 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189790 > Alla: > > Of course he was not under compulsion to kill every Muggle and Muggleborn who crossed his path. But him having use for Lily is actually news for me. What use did he have for her??? You mean giving her to Snape for his pleasures? Pippin: According to Hagrid and JKR's interviews, Voldemort wanted James and Lily on his side. Why, I don't know, but while Diary!Riddle might have thought her no better than a common Muggle, Lord Voldemort would know Lily as a powerful, popular and well-connected witch. It might show his power to kill her, since she persisted in defying him, but would it not show it even more to let her live, powerless to stop him from murdering her husband and child? And while Snape was not the highest-ranking DE at that time, he was the one who eluded Dumbledore's clutches and brought home the precious prophecy, and he then undertook the highly dangerous and difficult task of spying on Dumbledore from within Hogwarts itself. That would be worth at least the promise of a reward, and maybe the reward itself if it did not prove too troublesome. I suspect Snape was clever enough to tell Voldemort that he would name his reward for delivering the prophecy when he saw his time, and so had some credit stored up with his master when he needed it. I don't think Voldemort ever offered to wrap LIly up with a ribbon and drop her on Snape's bed like an early Christmas present. AFAWK, all he agreed to do was to spare her life. Anyway Snape has become in the eyes of the WW a respectable Hogwarts teacher, he's no longer under any suspicion of Death Eater sympathies, and if he can get himself back in the grieving widow's good graces, he might be able to penetrate the Order itself. Alla: This is a creature who had deluded himself that he is deserving to rule over wizard kind that muggle borns are lesser beings, etc, etc, etc, why would I take anything he is thinking or saying as truth? It MAY be a truth, sure, I doubt that he meant to say lies all the time, but I think I have every reason to be skeptical about any of his thoughts. Pippin: Because Voldemort prizes the truth, most of the time. Like the other characters he deludes himself only when the truth is too difficult to face. But why would he need to delude himself about planning to break his promise and kill Lily? He didn't have any qualms about either. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Nov 27 18:59:20 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 27 Nov 2010 18:59:20 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/28/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1290884360.542.62468.m17@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189791 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 28, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 27 14:30:20 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 06:30:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <79890.48239.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189792 Cat Says: > I think that was just a simple "mis-speak" Severus was talking to Sirius and JAMES on the train on their first trip to Hogwarts. BTW - Sirius made the same mistake in the Order of the Phoenix. During the fight scene Sirius said "Good one James!" < June: Now that you mention it I have to agree. Snape was not power hungry when he was wanting to be with Lily and honestly he was the victum of bullying (you have to admit that Sirius and James were in fact bullies to Snape). Then to add insult to injury, James married the one girl Snape wanted to marry. I think Snape joined Voldemort out of a need to be accepted. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sat Nov 27 14:42:14 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 06:42:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lily being spared (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <847017.2482.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189793 Carol responds: > If we consider the interviews as valid, JKR says otherwise. Unless Voldemort intended to keep his word, the love magic would not have worked. Lily *has* to trade her life for Harry's--a true sacrifice--or there's no love magic, only a double murder that LV intended all along. Carol, noting that in the flashback in DH, Voldemort debates with himself over killing Lily, indicating that he did *not* intend to kill her all along < June: The fact that Voldemort made a promise to Snape and did not keep it has little to do with what happened. Lily would not have known a promise to keep her alive had been made because if she did, she would have just told her husband that Voldemort was coming over to kill him and Harry and "Oh yeah, if I keep out of the way and let him kill you guys I will be spared." It was a total surprise to the Potters, therefore if Voldemort had accidently killed Lily while she was protection Harry, the protection Harry had would still be there because she loved him enough to give her life for him. If Lily was spared then Harry would have been dead and either there would be no story at all or a totally different story. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bart at moosewise.com Sat Nov 27 20:26:50 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 15:26:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Intentions In-Reply-To: <344269.98223.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <344269.98223.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CF1698A.5060603@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189794 On 11/27/2010 9:23 AM, June Ewing wrote: > Bart: > So, Morty was willing > to let her live, unless she proved to be more trouble than she was > worth. Which she did. > > > June: > If Voldemort really wanted to keepLily alive for Snape he could have. She was standing in front of Harry unarmed, he could have used any number of spells to get her out of the way unharmed. Whether his intentions were to keep her alive or not I think in the heat of the moment he just decided he wanted to kill her and did. Bart: Re-read the part of the quote of mine I left. She was proving herself to, from Morty's point of view, proving to be more trouble than she was worth. Given Morty's personality as given, he probably figured, "Well, I made an effort. I'll find some other cutie for Snape to play with. He'll never know the difference, anyway." Trying to save Lily anyway would have been too much like work. Bart From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 28 17:58:38 2010 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 28 Nov 2010 17:58:38 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/28/2010, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1290967118.11.83004.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189795 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 28, 2010 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 28 20:05:10 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:05:10 -0000 Subject: Lily being spared (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <847017.2482.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189796 > Carol responds: > > If we consider the interviews as valid, JKR says otherwise. > Unless Voldemort intended to keep his word, the love magic would > not have worked. Lily *has* to trade her life for Harry's--a true > sacrifice--or there's no love magic, only a double murder that LV > intended all along. > > > > Carol, noting that in the flashback in DH, Voldemort debates with > himself over killing Lily, indicating that he did *not* intend to > kill her all along < > > > June: > The fact that Voldemort made a promise to Snape and did not keep > it has little to do with what happened. Lily would not have known > a promise to keep her alive had been made because if she did, she > would have just told her husband that Voldemort was coming over to > kill him and Harry and "Oh yeah, if I keep out of the way and let > him kill you guys I will be spared." It was a total surprise to the > Potters, therefore if Voldemort had accidently killed Lily while > she was protection Harry, the protection Harry had would still be > there because she loved him enough to give her life for him. If > Lily was spared then Harry would have been dead and either there > would be no story at all or a totally different story. Carol responds: Voldemort wouldn't accidentally kill anyone--although, of course, he accidentally caused the AK to turn on him. And of course if he had spared Lily and killed Harry there would be no story. But my point is this. Voldemort promised Snape that he would spare Lily, a promise that he intended to keep. Had he not made that promise, he could have killed Lily with impunity. He would not have told her to stand aside--giving her a real chance to live had she been unmotherly enough to value her life over her child's. He would simply have AK'd her on the spot and then have killed Harry. No love magic, no story, just a victory for Voldemort. Or he could have honored his promise and merely Stunned her and then killed Harry, making him again the victor--but again, there would be no Love magic and no story. For the Love Magic to work, Lily had to have a real chance to live, a real choice (admittedly, a choice with no good alternatives). She could either stand aside and live (Voldemort says more than once that she didn't have to die) or she could *sacrifice* herself, trading her life for her child's ("Kill me *instead.*") That chance would not have come had he not intended to keep his promise to Snape. Granted, no bad consequences (other than a terribly fragmented and unstable soul) are immediately apparent when he kills her because she has *chosen* to die in Harry's place. But when he betrays her by trying to kill Harry, breaking his implied promise to her, her sacrifice gains its magical power--the AK rebounds against the caster and Harry is granted some of Voldemort's own powers (as in the Prophecy). Lily doesn't need to know that Voldemort made a promise to Snape. She only needs to know that Voldemort wants to kill her son--not her, or he would not have ordered her to stand aside, not once but several times. That, according to JKR, gives her a choice that, say, the Muggle mother in DH or Marlene McKinnon isn't offered--a chance to save herself at the expense of her child. She pleads with him to kill her *instead*--putting herself in Harry's place (not knowing, of course, why Voldemort would want to kill an innocent child). That *choice* automatically triggers the Love Magic so that when Voldemort breaks his end of the bargain and tries to kill Harry, Harry is magically protected in a way that other children aren't. If Voldemort had chosen to kill Neville instead, there would have been no Love Magic--not because Neville's mother didn't love him as much as Lily loved Harry but because Voldemort would not have promised to spare her (no DE was in love with her as Snape was with Lily) and therefore he would simply have AK'd her as he did the Muggle mother with no resulting Love Magic. Most likely, he would not have given her a chance to offer her life for her son's. Certainly, he would not have ordered her to stand aside. He would have had no more qualms about killing her than he did about ordering Wormtail to kill Cedric Diggory, who was also in his way. He would have treated Lily as he treated James, who was simply murdered. No follower had pleaded for *his* life and no promise had been made to spare it. The whole point of bringing Voldemort's promise to Snape into the story (aside from the effect of her death on Snape himself) is to give Voldemort a reason for sparing Lily. Without that promise, she would have had no choice to live. Without the choice to live, there would have been no Love Magic. Carol, with apologies for being somewhat repetitive From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 28 20:11:33 2010 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:11:33 -0000 Subject: Lily being spared (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189797 Carol earlier: > If Voldemort had chosen to kill Neville instead, there would have been no Love Magic--not because Neville's mother didn't love him as much as Lily loved Harry but because Voldemort would not have promised to spare her (no DE was in love with her as Snape was with Lily) and therefore he would simply have AK'd her as he did the Muggle mother with no resulting Love Magic. Most likely, he would not have given her a chance to offer her life for her son's. Certainly, he would not have ordered her to stand aside. He would have had no more qualms about killing her than he did about ordering Wormtail to kill Cedric Diggory, who was also in his way. He would have treated Lily as he treated James, who was simply murdered. No follower had pleaded for *his* life and no promise had been made to spare it. Carol: Oops. I meant, he would have killed Mrs. Longbottom (whose first name escapes me) as he killed James. OTOH, if it hadn't been for his promise to Snape, he'd have done the same thing to Lily, although that wasn't what I meant when I was typing the paragraph. Carol, who will probably think of Mrs. Longbottom's name as soon as she hits Send From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Nov 29 00:10:08 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 00:10:08 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions In-Reply-To: <4CF08E8F.4000705@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > luirhys: > > > Makes me wonder though, why LV chose to honor Snape's request. I'm sure at this > > point in time, he wasn't his right-hand man. > > Bart: > Assuming Morty's on the sociopathic/psychopathic spectrum (not a > difficult assumption, especially since it's the literary version of the > condition), it makes eminent sense. Snape was always extremely talented > in the black arts. He had a lot of potential as a tool to Morty. Morty > wanted to kill the baby, but Lily Potter was no obstacle. She was, > however, potentially useful as a way of imparting a sense of debt into > Snape, which, in turn, would be of use to Morty. So, Morty was willing > to let her live, unless she proved to be more trouble than she was > worth. Which she did. > > Bart > Nikkalmati We have LV's word that he intended to spare Lily (if it was not too inconvenient), we have the scene inwhich he demands that she stand aside at least twice and we have JKR's word that he would not have killed Lily if she had stood aside. In addition, the love magic would not have worked, if Lily's choice was not real. LV had no particular reason to kill Lily. He probably was not as psychotic in his pre-resurrection state. James he saw as a threat, but a Muggle-born witch he probably saw as unimportatnt. He made the promise to spare Lily as a reward for bringing him the Prophecy, I assume, not because Snape was a particularly important Death Eater. He was after all a young boy and a new recruit with no family connections. We need not ascribe LV's perception of Snape's purpose to Snape himself. From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Nov 29 04:05:32 2010 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 04:05:32 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: > > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > > luirhys: > > > > > Makes me wonder though, why LV chose to honor Snape's request. I'm sure at this > > > point in time, he wasn't his right-hand man. > > > > Bart: > > Assuming Morty's on the sociopathic/psychopathic spectrum (not a > > difficult assumption, especially since it's the literary version of the > > condition), it makes eminent sense. Snape was always extremely talented > > in the black arts. He had a lot of potential as a tool to Morty. Morty > > wanted to kill the baby, but Lily Potter was no obstacle. She was, > > however, potentially useful as a way of imparting a sense of debt into > > Snape, which, in turn, would be of use to Morty. So, Morty was willing > > to let her live, unless she proved to be more trouble than she was > > worth. Which she did. > > > > Bart > > > Nikkalmati > > We have LV's word that he intended to spare Lily (if it was not too inconvenient), we have the scene inwhich he demands that she stand aside at least twice and we have JKR's word that he would not have killed Lily if she had stood aside. In addition, the love magic would not have worked, if Lily's choice was not real. > > LV had no particular reason to kill Lily. He probably was not as psychotic in his pre-resurrection state. James he saw as a threat, but a Muggle-born witch he probably saw as unimportatnt. He made the promise to spare Lily as a reward for bringing him the Prophecy, I assume, not because Snape was a particularly important Death Eater. He was after all a young boy and a new recruit with no family connections. We need not ascribe LV's perception of Snape's purpose to Snape himself. > Nikkalmati (I got cut off on my previous message, sorry) The interesting thing to me is that whatever LV said to Snape, it didn't satisfy him. Even though LV must have promised that he would spare Lily, Snape went at the risk of his life (he thought) to Dumbledore to ask him to protect Lily. He was in a serious panic so he wasn't just covering his bets. What made him think LV's promise was worthless? Could it have been connected in any way with Regulus' death? Nikkalmati From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 29 06:47:41 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 06:47:41 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189801 > Nikkalmati > > The interesting thing to me is that whatever LV said to Snape, it > didn't satisfy him. Even though LV must have promised that he > would spare Lily, Snape went at the risk of his life (he thought) > to Dumbledore to ask him to protect Lily. He was in a serious panic > so he wasn't just covering his bets. What made him think LV's > promise was worthless? Could it have been connected in any way > with Regulus' death? Mike: I don't think it had anything to do with Regulus's death. The way I read DH, Regulus never revealed his change of heart to anyone but Kreacher, and LV never knew that Regulus had stolen the locket. So I don't see how Snape could have taken anything from Regulus's disappearance. My thinking is that Snape was aware that LV couched many of his *gifts* with double entendres. For instance, he gave Wormtail his new hand and said "may your loyalty never waiver". Little did Wormtail know that if and when his loyalty waivered, his hand turned on him and killed him. Now I know this all occurred much later in the story, but I'm guessing that LV had done this kind of thing before. LV's little talk with DD about coming to Hogwarts as a teacher was filled with double entendres. There is also the chance that LV actually conditioned his promise to Snape with 'if she doesn't cause any problems' or something of that sort. Knowing Lily, Snape would know that Lily would indeed 'cause problems' if LV showed up intent on killing her child. And there's that added bonus that LV is a big fat liar, and Snape knows it. So he wouldn't trust that LV was going to keep his word, to him or anyone. What I don't get is why Voldemort made the promise in the first place. Snape certainly wasn't high enough in rank to garner such special consideration. It would seem more in character for LV to punish Snape for making such a request, than to grant it. Mike From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 29 17:40:54 2010 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:40:54 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189802 Mike: > > What I don't get is why Voldemort made the promise in the first place. Snape certainly wasn't high enough in rank to garner such special consideration. It would seem more in character for LV to punish Snape for making such a request, than to grant it. Pippin: There's no special consideration involved. Snape isn't asking for much, from Voldemort's point of view. Voldemort doesn't know and cannot imagine that Snape wants Lily to be spared because he loves her. If Snape is so perverse in his tastes as to fancy a Muggleborn, well, that might be offensive to Lucius (and a wedge between Snape and Lucius might be useful one day) but it's of small concern to Voldemort. It's not as if Snape is any use to the pureblood breeding program himself. Nor does Voldemort think people will serve with no hope of reward. Only those fools who love would do that. He can terrify people into obedience or enchant them of course, but such servants are suitable only for the crudest tasks. Pippin From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Mon Nov 29 18:34:43 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 10:34:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <504598.39931.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189803 > Mike: > > What I don't get is why Voldemort made the promise in the first place. Snape certainly wasn't high enough in rank to garner such special consideration. It would seem more in character for LV to punish Snape for making such a request, than to grant it. < June: It could be that Voldemort made the promise because Snape was the one who told him of the prophecy. Maybe once in the position with Lily trying to protect Harry, Voldemort had changed his mind about protecting her because he suddenly thought Snape wasn't really worth it. From bart at moosewise.com Mon Nov 29 23:33:41 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 18:33:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF43855.2070801@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189804 On 11/29/2010 1:47 AM, Mike wrote: > What I don't get is why Voldemort made the promise in the first place. > Snape certainly wasn't high enough in rank to garner such special > consideration. It would seem more in character for LV to punish Snape > for making such a request, than to grant it. Bart: OK, did nobody but me read that Sirius Black, in GOF, said, "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year"? Snape was a genius, and as such, very useful to Morty. Bart From k12listmomma at comcast.net Tue Nov 30 00:08:19 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:08:19 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: <4CF43855.2070801@moosewise.com> References: <4CF43855.2070801@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <4CF44073.10105@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 189805 On 11/29/2010 1:47 AM, Mike wrote: >> What I don't get is why Voldemort made the promise in the first place. >> Snape certainly wasn't high enough in rank to garner such special >> consideration. It would seem more in character for LV to punish Snape >> for making such a request, than to grant it. > Bart: > > OK, did nobody but me read that Sirius Black, in GOF, said, "Snape > knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the > seventh year"? Snape was a genius, and as such, very useful to Morty. > > Bart Shelley: I am really with Mike on this one. Voldemort was nobody's friend. He didn't "do stuff" for other people. Either he was trying to get something to hold over Snape's head, or he never intended to keep that promise and never felt sorry about killing Lilly anyway, because that's what he does- murder anyone who stands in his way. I think the only reason we have this awkard situation is that Rowling planned for Harry to have his mother's protection, and Lilly's stand for her child was enough to give a "love" protection, but she had trouble with Snape and the fans bugging her about his loyalties and whether he was good or bad. I think it wasn't good enough in her mind to have Snape regretting his choice to be mean to Lilly and wanting to make it up to her by trying to save her life, instead she had to go the "Snape's in love" route which has Snape grovelling to Voldemort to spare the woman he loved. Either way, I think she never planned for Voldemort to ever grant that request to save Lilly, and so you get this weak writing of Voldemort saying yes without having a reason to say yes, and then have him do the murder anyway without a clear reason of committing that murder other than she was in his way. If I had written it, Voldemort would have said no, and then Snape would have had to begged of Dumbledore to help, and then still, all backfired because of the sudden last minute changes in secret-keeper. From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 00:48:27 2010 From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:48:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily being spared (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <847017.2482.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <847017.2482.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <351803.78527.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189806 June: The fact that Voldemort made a promise to Snape and did not keep it has little to do with what happened. Lily would not have known a promise to keep her alive had been made because if she did, she would have just told her husband that Voldemort was coming over to kill him and Harry and "Oh yeah, if I keep out of the way and let him kill you guys I will be spared." It was a total surprise to the Potters, therefore if Voldemort had accidently killed Lily while she was protection Harry, the protection Harry had would still be there because she loved him enough to give her life for him. If Lily was spared then Harry would have been dead and either there would be no story at all or a totally different story. luirhys: I think JK has made it clear that the reason the blood sacrifice worked is because LV "gave" her the choice to refuse. As JK explains, there could have been countless mothers or fathers or loved ones that threw themselves the person he was intending to kill but only Lily had the choice to stand aside, because Snape asked this of LV. If LV did not seriously consider sparing her, it would be just the same as LV's other victims.* *I am in no way demeaning Lily's or any of the other literary character's deaths/sacrifices. Just wanted to stress a point. Will really have to move and find that missing interview [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bart at moosewise.com Tue Nov 30 01:40:38 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 20:40:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: <4CF44073.10105@comcast.net> References: <4CF43855.2070801@moosewise.com> <4CF44073.10105@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CF45616.4050401@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189807 On 11/29/2010 7:08 PM, Shelley wrote: > On 11/29/2010 1:47 AM, Mike wrote: >>> What I don't get is why Voldemort made the promise in the first place. >>> Snape certainly wasn't high enough in rank to garner such special >>> consideration. It would seem more in character for LV to punish Snape >>> for making such a request, than to grant it. >> Bart: >> >> OK, did nobody but me read that Sirius Black, in GOF, said, "Snape >> knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the >> seventh year"? Snape was a genius, and as such, very useful to Morty. >> >> Bart > Shelley: > I am really with Mike on this one. Voldemort was nobody's friend. He > didn't "do stuff" for other people. Either he was trying to get > something to hold over Snape's head, or he never intended to keep that > promise and never felt sorry about killing Lilly anyway, because that's > what he does- murder anyone who stands in his way. Bart: I never said anything about "friend". The fact that Morty saw people as tools does not mean that he saw them as INTERCHANGEABLE tools. More useful tools deserved better treatment than less useful ones. Bart From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 03:38:35 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 03:38:35 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: <4CF45616.4050401@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189808 > > > Bart: > > > > > > OK, did nobody but me read that Sirius Black, in GOF, said > > > "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half > > > the kids in the seventh year"? Snape was a genius, and as > > > such, very useful to Morty. Mike: I don't know that memorizing a bunch of curses makes Severus a genius. Smart guy I'll grant, and probably powerfully magical; though we really don't get to see him in action other than against kids and that master of showmanship and little else, Gilderoy Lockhart. He did invent his own spells, well, at least Sectumsempra. But at the time of Snape asking LV to save Lily, I don't see LV recognizing anything out of Snape other than he overheard a prophesy and would probably make a good spy. > > Shelley: > > I am really with Mike on this one. Voldemort was nobody's friend. > > He didn't "do stuff" for other people. Either he was trying to > > get something to hold over Snape's head, or he never intended to > > keep that promise and never felt sorry about killing Lily anyway, > > because that's what he does- murder anyone who stands in his way. > > Bart: > I never said anything about "friend". The fact that Morty saw > people as tools does not mean that he saw them as INTERCHANGEABLE > tools. More useful tools deserved better treatment than less > useful ones. Mike: But Shelley's right, LV didn't "do stuff" for other people. He got other people to "do stuff" for him. Then LV bullied/charmed/convinced those people that whatever "stuff" they were doing was beneficial to them as much as it was beneficial to LV. We got to see him up close and personal in chapter 1 of DH and he treated most everyone the same, horrifically. Only Snape, the slayer of Dumbledore, the provider of key information on Harry Potter, manages to escape the LV's torment. And even then, Snape is not treated kindly, just not as badly as the rest of the DEs. But look at all that Snape had done for LV at this point. Snape has earned his status, he is pointedly LV's right-hand man. Comparing what he has done for LV by the time of DH to what he had done for LV at the time of the request,... well, there's no comparison, really. And yet, way back then LV was disposed to grant Snape this request, one that had to have been distasteful to Voldemort,... it just doesn't compute. Shelley may be right about holding something over Snape's head, but even then, does Voldemort need to have something to hold over anybody's head? Sirius also told us that one doesn't just hand in his resignation papers to Voldemort. Once a Death Eater, you either do what Voldemort tells you to do or you die. Sometimes you die even when you do what Voldemort tells you to do, because dying is what he wanted. The thing is, this wasn't just a "whoops" on Voldemort's part. This was THE critical mistake. It allowed the Love Magic to happen. Yes, I know it was the "power the Dark Lord knows not", but it was still so uncharacteristic of him to get himself into that position. And all because he decided to "do stuff" for a recent recruit. It was stupid, and Voldemort is not a stupid person. Mike, still not convinced that LV was thinking straight when he made that promise to Snape From bart at moosewise.com Tue Nov 30 04:16:46 2010 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:16:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CF47AAE.9040603@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189809 On 11/29/2010 10:38 PM, Mike wrote: > I don't know that memorizing a bunch of curses makes Severus a genius. Smart guy I'll grant, and probably powerfully magical; though we really don't get to see him in action other than against kids and that master of showmanship and little else, Gilderoy Lockhart. > > He did invent his own spells, well, at least Sectumsempra. But at the time of Snape asking LV to save Lily, I don't see LV recognizing anything out of Snape other than he overheard a prophesy and would probably make a good spy. Bart: Let's see. A 10 year old having a knowledge of curses on the level of advanced 17 year olds is pretty impressive. Creating methodologies for potions that were easier and more effective than those in the advanced textbook is pretty impressive, too. His occlumancy skills are such that Morty doesn't even know that Snape is hiding his thoughts. And note that, other than Morty, he is the only wizard who managed to learn the "flying without a broomstick" method. Just to name a few things off the top of my head. Bart From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 06:49:00 2010 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:49:00 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: <4CF47AAE.9040603@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189810 > Bart: > Let's see. A 10 year old having a knowledge of curses on the level > of advanced 17 year olds is pretty impressive. Mike: As you said earlier, he knew *more* curses. Sirius never said what level they were on. I'm sure there are hundreds of little minor curses such as the itching curse that young Severus could have learned. And I'd wager that half of the seventh years weren't interested in learning that many curses. Besides, Sirius sounded like he was exaggerating for effect in that little speech. > Bart: > Creating methodologies for potions that were easier and more > effective than those in the advanced textbook is pretty > impressive, too. Mike: But when did he do this? That textbook had probably been in there since Snape came to teach, he'd have had many years to perfect his methods. So who knows when he came up with his better methods. He was the potionmaster at the school, he had lots of time to experiment. And it was his job for 15 years. >From the way I understood it, he was second to Lily in his year at potions. > Bart: > His occlumancy skills are such that Morty doesn't even know that > Snape is hiding his thoughts. And note that, other than Morty, he > is the only wizard who managed to learn the "flying without a > broomstick" method. Mike: All fine skills that I'm sure he took a few years to hone. But that doesn't change what I'd originally posited. To wit: *at that time* Snape was still a nobody to Voldemort. Maybe Voldemort could see some potential in the young Snape, but granting a *request* from a nobody when LV was never shown to have granted any request, to anybody, before or after, not even to the mature, right-hand-man Snape we see in DH, just doesn't make sense for Voldemort. > Bart > Just to name a few things off the top of my head. Mike: OK, I'll play. James and Sirius figured out how to complete the difficult and dangerous Animagi transformation, and teach Peter how to do it, by the age of 15. After all, we don't know the level of curses Severus learned, but we do know that the Animgi transformation was way beyond a 5th year level. Does that make them geniuses? Harry could produce a corperal Patronus in his third year, a skill that evidently most adult wizards couldn't master. Even Remus only produced a wispy vapor on the train when the Dementors came calling. Does that make Harry a genius? In their first year, the trio beat, what, 5 different obstacles set up by school professors, including Snape, to thwart someone from getting to the Stone. Does that make them geniuses? Learning a skill does not make one a genius. That's not to say that Snape wasn't one, maybe he was. But other than his potions methods (which could have come from trial and error), all the things you mentioned are learned skills. Snape probably hadn't learned most of these skills by the time he'd made his request. So what did Voldemort have in front of him, *at that time*, that would have convinced him that Snape was a genius and therefore deserved "better treatment" than his other DEs? Mike From k12listmomma at comcast.net Tue Nov 30 13:50:11 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:50:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: <4CF45616.4050401@moosewise.com> References: <4CF43855.2070801@moosewise.com> <4CF44073.10105@comcast.net> <4CF45616.4050401@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <4CF50113.6030201@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 189812 >>>> On 11/29/2010 1:47 AM, Mike wrote: What I don't get is why Voldemort made the promise in the first place. >>>> Snape certainly wasn't high enough in rank to garner such special >>>> consideration. It would seem more in character for LV to punish Snape >>>> for making such a request, than to grant it. >>> Bart: >>> >>> OK, did nobody but me read that Sirius Black, in GOF, said, "Snape >>> knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the >>> seventh year"? Snape was a genius, and as such, very useful to Morty. >>> >>> Bart >> Shelley: >> I am really with Mike on this one. Voldemort was nobody's friend. He >> didn't "do stuff" for other people. Either he was trying to get >> something to hold over Snape's head, or he never intended to keep that >> promise and never felt sorry about killing Lilly anyway, because that's >> what he does- murder anyone who stands in his way. > Bart: > I never said anything about "friend". The fact that Morty saw people as > tools does not mean that he saw them as INTERCHANGEABLE tools. More > useful tools deserved better treatment than less useful ones. > > Bart Shelley: Bart, your premise still states that Voldemort could treat people "nicely" (as in what you would do to a useful tool) on purpose. Name even one other Death Eater than Voldemort considered the feelings of or did anything remotely nice for? The only reason he keeps people around is that he needs them, but he doesn't give anyone a choice in it, and neither does he play favorites or dote affection, as much a Bellatrix desired it. They were all fighting to be claimed as his favorite, but as we see, Voldemort doesn't care for their feelings unless it's a manipulative tool for him to use. Snape's love for Lilly had to have been seen as a tool for Voldemort to use against Snape, otherwise he had no reason to even grant Snape's "personal favor". As we see with Wormtail, the hand that Wormtail was really thankful for was a curse that would murder him. What is missing in this case is something that is painfully required of Snape in exchange for his wish granted. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Tue Nov 30 16:51:24 2010 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:51:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: <4CF47AAE.9040603@moosewise.com> References: <4CF47AAE.9040603@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <4CF52B8C.6070000@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 189813 > On 11/29/2010 10:38 PM, Mike wrote: >> I don't know that memorizing a bunch of curses makes Severus a genius. Smart guy I'll grant, and probably powerfully magical; though we really don't get to see him in action other than against kids and that master of showmanship and little else, Gilderoy Lockhart. >> >> He did invent his own spells, well, at least Sectumsempra. But at the time of Snape asking LV to save Lily, I don't see LV recognizing anything out of Snape other than he overheard a prophesy and would probably make a good spy. > Bart: > Let's see. A 10 year old having a knowledge of curses on the level > of advanced 17 year olds is pretty impressive. Creating methodologies > for potions that were easier and more effective than those in the > advanced textbook is pretty impressive, too. His occlumancy skills are > such that Morty doesn't even know that Snape is hiding his thoughts. And > note that, other than Morty, he is the only wizard who managed to learn > the "flying without a broomstick" method. Just to name a few things off > the top of my head. > > Bart Shelley: I get the idea that "extraordinary" witches and wizards are uncommon, and people bragging about them may tend to exaggerate their abilities. Take Hermione, who's main talent is research, and through it knows a lot about the castle even though she's a Muggle-born. Snape, upon entrance to school, had the ability to also do research and the drive and desire to do so. When you are aiming to be the top of your class, you do a lot of homework outside of class that isn't assigned, and thus you learn things "before your school teaches you that subject." We don't know if he was a "genius" per se, because a lot of mistaken genius to other people isn't so much a high IQ or high natural talent as much as a "fair amount" of IQ or raw talent coupled with a STRONG drive and desire to use one's talents. (The twins are a perfect example.) My girls get that a lot. Having been homeschooled before entering public school, they have a lot of knowledge and a good foundation academically. In the public school, they have a lot of ambition, and because of it they are straight A students. Yes, they get bragged about as "geniuses" by their fellow classmates, but I know their true IQ and their background, and know that 90% of it is just drive or ambition to be the best. And yes, people tend to exaggerate how smart they really are, because they stick out from the crowd, as Snape must have. Snape comes from a poor home, and to get anywhere, he has to be recognized as the top of his class. It's his one shot at being somebody. I don't think that he has some special talent that others couldn't possess, but like the rest of life, a lot of people are pretty content "being average" and don't push themselves to their full ability level. Don't mistake me as saying Snape has no talent, I didn't say that, but I do think his talent isn't at the genius level. I think a lot of other talented witches or wizards could have done the same thing if they were motivated to. Most people don't have a reason to need to invent new spells, because there is a negative social stigma about it, as we see with Luna's parents. Do it too often, and you are branded a loony. It takes guts to distinguish yourself as different in a crowd, and Snape did that. That is what his real talent was- he didn't care what other people thought, and so it didn't limit his ability to learn or create. It's amazing what talent you see displayed in young children if you don't present them a (false?) measuring stick that says "curses are learned in (this year or grade level)". I've seen that time and time again in homeschooling, when my kids "got" some level of learning that they would not have been taught or expected to learn until a later year if they were in a public school. About the flying without a broom idea- watch the progress made in sports. Often, there is a standard like the 4 minute mile that is considered a limitation, until someone breaks it. Then, everyone is shooting for that new level or skill, because it's been "proven" to be possible. It's people's minds that hold them back, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the following year a handful of Hogwarts children doing this stunt, as if it were possible all along. Adults are shocked by it, but the kids would just accept that it IS POSSIBLE, and therefore, they just need to figure out how to do it too! From e2fanbev at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 20:30:18 2010 From: e2fanbev at yahoo.com (e2fanbev) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:30:18 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: <4CF52B8C.6070000@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shelley wrote: > About the flying without a broom idea- watch the progress made in > sports. Often, there is a standard like the 4 minute mile that is > considered a limitation, until someone breaks it. Then, everyone is > shooting for that new level or skill, because it's been "proven" to be > possible. It's people's minds that hold them back, and I wouldn't be > surprised to see the following year a handful of Hogwarts children doing > this stunt, as if it were possible all along. Adults are shocked by it, > but the kids would just accept that it IS POSSIBLE, and therefore, they > just need to figure out how to do it too! > Bev: A long time ago I posted the suggestion that Lily had the ability to fly without a broom. In the playground scene when she first meets young Snape she is demonstrating for Petunia her ability to keep herself airborne- without a wand- and land gently. I was told rather dismissively that I was reading too much into "baby magic." Well, any talent whether magical or not has to start somewhere. I still believe Lily had a natural ability to do it. Think of what she could have done with a wand. Why else would JKR mention it in the same story where two others demonstrate the abilty? Going back to lurkdom, Bev From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 30 13:59:27 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 05:59:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voldemort's Intentions & Snape's Expectations In-Reply-To: <4CF43855.2070801@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <170694.80562.qm@web113908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189815 Bart: > OK, did nobody but me read that Sirius Black, in GOF, said, "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year"? Snape was a genius, and as such, very useful to Morty. < June: I am sure everyone here read that but knowing a lot of curses does not make one a genius and does not necessarily make Voldemort see him as useful. Maybe you did not read (like the rest of us did) that Dumbledore had said that Voldemort did not consider anyone to be his friend. He really had no use for anyone in a personal way and only used people. He wouldn't care what Snape was capable of. In case you missed it there were a couple of times when he allowed people who were of great help to him to die when he was finished with them. IE Quirrell in the Philosopher's Stone and then Snape at the end of The Deathly Hallows. You may want to read those two but I am certain the rest of us read Goblet of Fire. From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 30 14:10:19 2010 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:10:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lily being spared (was Re: Why did Barty Crouch Jr join Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: <351803.78527.qm@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <650701.18572.qm@web113919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189816 luirhys: > I think JK has made it clear that the reason the blood sacrifice worked is because LV "gave" her the choice to refuse. As JK explains, there could have been countless mothers or fathers or loved ones that threw themselves the person he was intending to kill but only Lily had the choice to stand aside, because Snape asked this of LV. If LV did not seriously consider sparing her, it would be just the same as LV's other victims.* *I am in no way demeaning Lily's or any of the other literary character's deaths/sacrifices. Just wanted to stress a point. Will really have to move and find that missing interview. < June: Dumbledore said that it was Lily's sacrifice to give her life in place of Harry's that caused the protection and Harry even in Order of the Phoenix at the beginning after finding out that it could just as easily been Neville was wondering himself if it had been Neville would Neville's mother have been able to protect him the way his mother did so that the protection would have been given to Neville. Don't forget too Dumbledore knew every thing. He himself said that even he can be wrong about things but he was aware of every thing that went on around Harry and he knew all about Snape and what he was up to and if the protection set by Lily's actions had any thing to do whatsoever with Snape, Dumbledore would know that and what he told Harry was that it was Lily's love for him that set the protection.