From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Oct  1 23:07:49 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 23:07:49 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i8336k+hivt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i85pk5+lkvt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189625

Geoff:
> As a Headmaster, Dumbledore is responsible for what his staff are doing and
> therefore answerable to the Governors and, in a UK situation, to the LEA (Local
> Education Authority) and nowadays Ofsted (the Office for Standards in Education).
> 
> When I was a young teacher, I had a great Head who taught me mpre about the
> class room than any lecturer at College. His initial approach was to suggest to 
> me that I took on a particular class or task and then pose the question "Are y
> ou all right with this? Do you want any advice or more information?"

Pippin:
It would help if  Hagrid were open to tactful advice. In his case, I'm afraid it would be like making subtle suggestions to a hurricane. I do agree that the staff is Dumbledore's responsibility, and I think under normal circumstances a requisition for six hippogriffs would have raised some eyebrows if not actual alarm. But DD and the rest of the staff had reason to be pre-occupied considering Sirius's escape and ministry's plans to defend the school with dementors.

It doesn't sound as if the WW had any formal training for teachers. But if there was, I doubt Hagrid would have been eligible. If the Ministry was in charge, you can bet that purity of blood and impressive numbers of NEWTs would have been valued over anything Hagrid had to offer.

Pippin





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Oct  2 02:39:06 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 02:39:06 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i85pk5+lkvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8660a+vntd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189626


 information?"
> 
> Pippin:
> It would help if  Hagrid were open to tactful advice. In his case, I'm afraid it would be like making subtle suggestions to a hurricane. I do agree that the staff is Dumbledore's responsibility, and I think under normal circumstances a requisition for six hippogriffs would have raised some eyebrows if not actual alarm. <snip>

Potioncat:
I think Lupin ordered the wee dark beasties that he used in class, but I don't think Hagrid did. He seems to have raised (or found) the hippogriffs in the Dark Forest. DD probably had no idea what Hagrid planned.

I know Hagrid thought DD was the best Headmaster Hogwarts ever saw---I hope not. DD had many attributes, but being a leader of educators was not one of them.

 




From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Oct  2 03:57:54 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 23:57:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter
 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i85pk5+lkvt@eGroups.com>
References: <i85pk5+lkvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CA6ADC2.5040002@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189627

  Pippin:
> It would help if  Hagrid were open to tactful advice. In his case, I'm afraid it would be like making subtle suggestions to a hurricane. I do agree that the staff is Dumbledore's responsibility, and I think under normal circumstances a requisition for six hippogriffs would have raised some eyebrows if not actual alarm. But DD and the rest of the staff had reason to be pre-occupied considering Sirius's escape and ministry's plans to defend the school with dementors.

     Actually, Hagrid was very close to competent with the hippogriff 
lesson. Essentially, it was a student and a powerful parent who had it 
out for him that did him in and caused him to lose his confidence. I 
never could figure out how Draco was supposed to have gotten away with 
his malingering.

     Bart



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Oct  2 17:55:31 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 2 Oct 2010 17:55:31 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/3/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1286042131.10.16938.m4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189628

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Oct  3 02:08:50 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 02:08:50 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i7re6t+mulk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i88oji+mbg6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189630



> 1) Do you think, considering that Harry is usually wrong about Professor Snape, that the 'Neville's boggart' story is why Snape seems so tense and angry these days?

Potioncat: I think it was a nice job of misdirection on JKR's part. She set us up with the Neville/Trevor/Boggart storyline and tied it to the Snape/Lupin dynamic?which we didn't fully understand until much later. So it was easy for Harry to attribute Snape's behavior to the Boggart and easy for us to go along with it.

Now that we've completed DH, the scene in this chapter, where Snape looks after DD with resentment makes sense. Snape's reason for being is to protect Harry and right now DD is rejecting every idea Snape has.

Another misdirection in this chapter is Black's attack on Halloween night. Ron thinks they were fortunate that Black forgot about the feast and so didn't get Harry, but really Sirius was using that opportunity to go after Scabbers.

 
> 3)How do you imagine Hermione survived all those years in the girls' dorms?

Potioncat: Some years she seems to get along better with her roommates than others;  she seems to know who people are in general. So I don't think she's completely at odds with the girls. She also seems to finds friends from other years and houses.


> 
> 4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?

Poitioncat: I thought it was Snape's usual jealousy of the DADA teacher, but with something else going on.  Again, JKR gave us just enough to have us wondering and  so that things made more sense later.


> 
> 5) Is Lupin's idea that Harry's Boggart might be Lord Voldemort reasonable, considering Harry was just over a year old when he saw him?

Potioncat: Harry himself thought of LV first. So, yes, I think it was reasonable.


> 
> 6) Do you think Peeves might have had an amicable relationship with the Marauders, as later it's apparent he has with the Weasley twins, and might he have been present when Sirius was in the castle?

Potioncat:
I missed any reference to Peeves getting along the twins?unless you mean later during Umbridge's time. I think Peeves is always out for trouble and doesn't care who he taunts. It doesn't seem to me that he and Lupin have any good vibes.

What do you think of Peeves's parting comment that Sirius Black had a bad temper? Do you think he was referring to young Sirius?or just exploiting the current situation?

One thing really jumped out at me this time?others may have picked up on it earlier. Harry came very close to telling Lupin about the dog he saw, but changed his mind. Lupin would have known at once the dog was Sirius. How do you think he would have reacted? Would he have thought Harry had a near miss, or would he have realized Sirius wasn't trying to hurt Harry?

Thanks for the great questions.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Oct  3 17:01:01 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 3 Oct 2010 17:01:01 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/3/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1286125261.9.17816.m8@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189631

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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Weekly Chat
Sunday October 3, 2010
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(This event repeats every week.)
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Oct  3 18:57:53 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 18:57:53 -0000
Subject: Boggarts, Trelawney, Hippogriffs, Teaching Advice, what did Draco know, etc
Message-ID: <i8ajnh+rqgb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189632

Megan PoohMeg discussed PoA Chapter 7 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189554>:

<< 1. What does Hermione's punishment for helping Neville say about Snape? >>

Coupled with Harry's Book One punishment for NOT having preventing Neville from putting in the porcupine quills at the wrong time, it proves that Snape is not very consistent about rules, and especially he does not have a rule against helping other students because getting help prevents a student from learning. I thought he was just taking out his anger at being prevented from killing Trevor, but maybe he has an educational theory that randomly punishing a student makes the whole class remember the content of that lesson.

<< 2. What did you think Lupin's boggart was the first time you read the chapter? >>

I didn't know and went along with Lavender Brown's idea that it was a crystal ball. After the Christmas dinner, I assumed that the crystal ball Boggart represented his fear of Professor Trelawney's relentless romantic pursuit of him (another thing I have in common with her).

Happy Joey Smiley wondered in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189569>:

<< why Trelawney never gave Hermione a detention :-) >>

Trelawney had no desire to spend one minute more than necessary in Hermione's company.

Luirhys asked in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189577>:

<< Hmm.. do you think that LV even had those kind of emotions? We know he wasn't capable of love, but of lust? >>

I suppose he must have been capable of sexual lust when he was human, but I believe that he lost all sexual desire (and sexual organs) by becoming a snake-man. Also, the flashbacks of when he was human suggest that he managed to conceal from his followers any sign that he had such human weaknesses as sexual lust. I had to specify, because he was real big on demonstrating lust for power and lust to torture.

Amanita Muscaria discussed PoA Chapter 8 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189609>:

<< 2) Do you think Hagrid could have sought or accepted advice about teaching, and who from? >>

I think it never occurred to Hagrid that seeking advice about teaching was a possibility.

He would have accepted advice about teaching from Dumbledore, whom he revered, but Dumbledore is stand-off-ish.

I suspect that anyone else who offered him advice about teaching would have had to do it so subtly that it didn't seem like advice, because I think his insecurity would have caused him to take offense at anyone he didn't revere giving him unsolicited advice, like 'that git thinks he knows more than me just because I'm half-giant'.

<< 3)How do you imagine Hermione survived all those years in the girls' dorms? >>

Drew the bed curtains closed around her and read a book.

Alla replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189610>:

<< I am not sure I quite understand this question. Could you clarify whether you mean that girls were giving her a hard time or you mean something else? >>

I assumed that the question meant that Hermione would go crazy listening to Lavender and Parvati (and the two unnamed Gryffindor girls) endlessly discussing which musician in The Weird Sisters is the cutest, how to do the new spell for curling eyelashes from Teen Witch, whether this comfy jumper is so old-fashioned that everyone would laugh at someone who wore it...

Maybe the girls gave her a hard time early in first year (before she went to cry in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom). It would have been unrewarding for them, as she had the ability to conceal her hurt feelings, look like she didn't care, as long as she had an audience. But I figure that once she had participated in killing a troll and was best friends with the star Seeker, they decided to stop picking on her so they could share her glory. If not, they would stop when she developed that sharp tongue and could give as good as she got.

Potioncat wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189616>:

<< what I get this time is that Draco knows the story about Black betraying the Potters. It's not supposed to be a widely circulated story. So do the Malfoys also think Black was working for LV? (Cissy, your cousin turned out to be a stand up guy afterall.) And what do the other DEs believe? I don't get the feeling that the Askaban-DEs think Black is one of them.

The other thing is that Draco isn't acting like Black is a cousin. Perhaps he's smart enough not to mention it to Potter--or perhaps he doesn't know? >>

Draco must know that Black is his cousin. All those purebloods are mad for genealogy. Remember Ernie Macmillan in CoS saying he could trace his ancestors for nine generations? I recall some listie suggesting that the way that Ernie traced his ancestors is that all the rich pureblood families had a magic tapestry like the Blacks had.

I've never been able to figure out what Draco thought Sirius's position in the war had been. Of course the first time I read him taunting Harry to seek revenge, I had no more idea than Harry, revenge for what? But after that, I read it as Draco believed what Albus and Arthur believed, and was trying to send Harry to be killed by Sirius just because Draco hates Harry. But if Draco believes that Sirius was a valuable servant of the Dark Lord and a dangerous killer, why did Draco consistently disrepect Sirius?

Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189625>:

<< under normal circumstances a requisition for six hippogriffs would have raised some eyebrows if not actual alarm. >>

Potioncat replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189626>:

<< I think Lupin ordered the wee dark beasties that he used in class, but I don't think Hagrid did. He seems to have raised (or found) the hippogriffs in the Dark Forest. DD probably had no idea what Hagrid planned. >>

I completely agree with Potioncat. I never got the idea that Hagrid requisitioned the hippogriffs. I always thought they lived in the Forbidden Forest and he called them and they came. And he had trained them to come when called by feeding them and maybe by grooming them. Do hippogriffs enjoy being groomed? Clearly, Buckbeak was already some kind of his pet.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct  4 00:10:50 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:10:50 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
Message-ID: <i8b62a+379q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189634

Has anyone seen or read the transcript of the recent interview? 
You can find the video or transcript at the leaky cauldron site.

At one point JKR was recalling how she described her ideal man before she met her current husband.

<< I remember speaking to a very good friend and she said what would you like in a man?  And I said I would need to be with someone intelligent, because I just value it.  I would really like for him to have his own carrer... I really thought these were basic things.  Integrity as very important>>

Potioncat:
Sure sounds like Snape to me.
But then JKR's list continued,


<< and kindness, and a strong sense of who he was... These were things that were all very important>>

Potioncat:
That kindness requirement knocked Snape right out of the running.
Not that there's any reason to think JKR would put that ideal man into her book for any reason---but the only person in HP who fits the description (imo) is Harry. (He may be a tad weak in intelligence, but he has his own sort.)

Potioncat




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Mon Oct  4 04:36:49 2010
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kemper)
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 04:36:49 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8b62a+379q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8bll1+e0tr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189635

 
> Potioncat:
> That kindness requirement knocked Snape right out of the running.
> Not that there's any reason to think JKR would put that ideal man into her book for any reason---but the only person in HP who fits the description (imo) is Harry.

Kemper now:
Is Harry kind?  I don't know.  I'd agree that he isn't cruel.  But to get back to JKR's ideal man: he is in the books only he's a woman, and his name is Luna Lovegood.

What I found interesting in the interview was her remarks about her father and mother.  I was reminded of Harry's surprise at the douchieness of James in SWM and wondered if James had a little bit of her dad in him and if that was conscious or not.  Obviously, James doesn't seem as bad of a father as her dad.  And then there's Lily, who is pure and almost idolized VirginMary-style.  JKR loved and lost her mom as she was writing the Philosopher's Stone at the age of 25 and was left with a dick dad, so I can see where JKR could see her mom as flawless (not JKR's words or expressed feelings, just my assumption) and want that for Harry.

I also hope that she doesn't write the story for a book 8 and/or 9 that's in her head and that she stays in heart with what she heard about Michael Jackson chasing a phenomenon he had already created: let this amazing chapter of her life be complete and write something else and get it published.  I would happily read something new from her without any expectations unless it's in the HP world and I would definitely not be interested in reading First War stuff unless James and Sirius weren't in it.  In fact, none of the marauders.  And not Snape.  I'd like to read more about Mrs. Figg.

Kemper




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Oct  4 23:48:49 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:48:49 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8bll1+e0tr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8dp51+f44n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189637


> 
> Kemper now:
snip
> 
> What I found interesting in the interview was her remarks about her father and mother.  I was reminded of Harry's surprise at the douchieness of James in SWM and wondered if James had a little bit of her dad in him and if that was conscious or not. 

Potioncat:
What I find even more interesting is that her father's name is Peter. I hold Pettigrew in more contempt than I do Riddle--odd she gave him her father's name.

> Kemper
snip
 I would happily read something new from her without any expectations unless it's in the HP world and I would definitely not be interested in reading First War stuff unless James and Sirius weren't in it.  In fact, none of the marauders.  And not Snape.  I'd like to read more about Mrs. Figg.

Potioncat:
I'd probably read her grocery list if she published it (I'd get it from the library)--but I agree about another Potter book. I wouldn't want to read about young Severus or Marauders--or about the epilogue years. if she somehow had a story about someone else withing the Potterverse--maybe.Mrs. Figg is a front runner. And while I'd read it, I'd rather read something completely different.




From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Oct  5 01:30:45 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 21:30:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8dp51+f44n@eGroups.com>
References: <i8dp51+f44n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CAA7FC5.20904@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189638

  Potioncat:
> I'd probably read her grocery list if she published it (I'd get it from the library)--but I agree about another Potter book. I wouldn't want to read about young Severus or Marauders--or about the epilogue years. if she somehow had a story about someone else withing the Potterverse--maybe.Mrs. Figg is a front runner. And while I'd read it, I'd rather read something completely different.

     I've stated my desire to read: Luna Lovegood, Undercover Auror.

     Bart




From lynde at post.com  Tue Oct  5 18:34:47 2010
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:34:47 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8dp51+f44n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CD32D31F984898-1148-8508@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189639





I did not watch the entire interview. I have never cared for Oprah. I did watch part of it, however. About reading more from the HP universe, I 'd be happy to, and I don't think my interest would be limited to post WW1 only. Why should it be? There are however, a lot of questions left unanswered and I'm sure she could easily develop completely new stories in that world.

Lynda




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jim at trueartistgroup.com  Tue Oct  5 02:07:12 2010
From: jim at trueartistgroup.com (Jim)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 19:07:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <4CAA7FC5.20904@moosewise.com>
References: <i8dp51+f44n@eGroups.com> <4CAA7FC5.20904@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <02b301cb6432$0a2991f0$1e7cb5d0$@com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189640

 

 

  

Potioncat:
> I'd probably read her grocery list if she published it (I'd get it >from
>the library)--but I agree about another Potter book. <SNIP>


How about Potter Babies with a little Professor Dumbledore and a little Mrs.
McGonagall?

 

J




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  6 01:08:33 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 01:08:33 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8bll1+e0tr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8gi6h+vsgv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189641

Kemper:
<SNIP>

> I also hope that she doesn't write the story for a book 8 and/or 9 that's in her head and that she stays in heart with what she heard about Michael Jackson chasing a phenomenon he had already created: let this amazing chapter of her life be complete and write something else and get it published.  I would happily read something new from her without any expectations unless it's in the HP world and I would definitely not be interested in reading First War stuff unless James and Sirius weren't in it.  In fact, none of the marauders.  And not Snape.  I'd like to read more about Mrs. Figg.


Alla:

While I would LOVE to read more about First War and marauders and especially James and Sirius, I would love for her to do an encyclopedia one day and put it there. I certainly agree with you though that I hope she will never ever write book 8. To me it would be such a weak and obvious exploitation of the phenomena she created that I personally would loose all respect for her as a writer. The saga is done. The main conflict is finished, evil is punished, etc, etc, there are no loose ends that warrant another book. I am really hoping that she will not do it. Like right now Rick Riordan's new book in Percy Jackson's universe after everything was done and revealed just makes me go ewww, I so do not want to think that way about JKR's books. Write something new, I will be the first one on line to buy it JKR I swear :) Please do not make me think that your imagination is uncapable of creating something completely new besides Potterverse :)

Just my opinion of course.




From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Oct  6 07:42:11 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 07:42:11 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <02b301cb6432$0a2991f0$1e7cb5d0$@com>
Message-ID: <i8h98j+2c1u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189642



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> Potioncat:
> > I'd probably read her grocery list if she published it (I'd get it >from
> >the library)--but I agree about another Potter book. <SNIP>
> 
> 
> How about Potter Babies with a little Professor Dumbledore and a little Mrs.
> McGonagall?
> 

Dumbledore and Grindelwald! And Mr.McGonagall! Mrs. Figg!
I'd like some history of the wizarding world, well, what I'd REALLY like is Hogwarts: A History.
> 
> J
>





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  6 14:20:59 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:20:59 -0000
Subject: Boggarts, Trelawney, Hippogriffs, Teaching Advice, what did Draco know, etc
In-Reply-To: <i8ajnh+rqgb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8i0kb+it00@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189643

Catlady wrote:
> 
> Draco must know that Black is his cousin. All those purebloods are mad for genealogy. <snip>
> I've never been able to figure out what Draco thought Sirius's position in the war had been. Of course the first time I read him taunting Harry to seek revenge, I had no more idea than Harry, revenge for what? But after that, I read it as Draco believed what Albus and Arthur believed, and was trying to send Harry to be killed by Sirius just because Draco hates Harry. But if Draco believes that Sirius was a valuable servant of the Dark Lord and a dangerous killer, why did Draco consistently disrepect Sirius?

Carol responds:
Since Draco thinks that Harry would want to seek revenge, he must know that Sirius (supposedly) betrayed the Potters to their deaths. I don't think he's "disrespecting" Sirius at this point; he's taunting Harry to goad him into going after a notorious mass murderer who specifically wants to kill Harry (or so Draco and everyone else involved thinks). It's quite comparable, IMO, to Sirius daring Severus to enter the Shrieking Shack to have a nice, scary encounter with a werewolf. If he later "disrespects" Sirius (and I'm not sure what you have in mind here), it may be because Sirius wasn't a true Black in that he was Sorted into Gryffindor.

Can you cite the passage you have in mind to help us out here?

Carol, who can't think of a sign-off this early in the morning




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Oct  7 23:17:46 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 23:17:46 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8dp51+f44n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8lkeq+r5a1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189644


> Potioncat:
> I'd probably read her grocery list if she published it (I'd get it from the library)--but I agree about another Potter book. I wouldn't want to read about young Severus or Marauders--or about the epilogue years. if she somehow had a story about someone else withing the Potterverse--maybe.Mrs. Figg is a front runner. And while I'd read it, I'd rather read something completely different.
>

Pippin:
Finally got around to watching my dvr of the interview. I agree it would be more interesting to read the stuff that doesn't fit into the Potterverse one way or another, though I wouldn't mind reading about the Founders. I think she's said all she has to say about Sirius, Snape, Lupin and James. 

Pippin




From kat7555 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  8 02:06:17 2010
From: kat7555 at yahoo.com (kathy)
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 02:06:17 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8lkeq+r5a1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8luap+5jbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189645

> Pippin:
> Finally got around to watching my dvr of the interview. I agree it would be more interesting to read the stuff that doesn't fit into the Potterverse one way or another, though I wouldn't mind reading about the Founders. I think she's said all she has to say about Sirius, Snape, Lupin and James.

Kathy:
I'd like to see a HP prequel because there are so many unanswered questions. For example: How did James and Lily fall in love? What exactly led Peter to betray his friends? I'd love to know more about Neville's parents as well. I want to know more about Dumbledore and his actions prior to HP. Did he try help Sirius prove his innocence, or was he content to leave him in jail? How closely did he watch Harry before he turned eleven?

Kathy



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Oct  9 00:24:21 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:24:21 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8luap+5jbt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8ocnl+ivld@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189646


> 
> Kathy:
> I'd like to see a HP prequel because there are so many unanswered questions. For example: How did James and Lily fall in love? What exactly led Peter to betray his friends? I'd love to know more about Neville's parents as well. I want to know more about Dumbledore and his actions prior to HP. Did he try help Sirius prove his innocence, or was he content to leave him in jail? How closely did he watch Harry before he turned eleven?
> 

Pippin:
What I got from DH, especially the forest chapters,  was JKR showing us that in her world   even the life of a superhero in deadly danger can be tedious at times. So I guess I feel that the explanations that we get are enough for me because more detail wouldn't necessarily be more interesting. Magic, it turns out, doesn't make the world a grander, finer place, not once the novelty wears off. 

 James and Lily were, from the brief glimpses we get of their married life, as happy as any two people can be in the shadow of war and sorrow, but that doesn't mean they ever had a grand passionate romance. James, we are told, just grew out of being a berk. Like babies grow out of being rugrats and chickens grow out of being eggs. It takes a notable effort on their part, but that doesn't mean a story about  it would be interesting. 

The same might be true of Neville's parents. Their story is evidently not the stuff of legend, and if it was, it would probably turn out not to be true. <g>

Canon says that Peter betrayed his friends for the not-interesting reason that he was a coward. It would be more interesting if he were a coward who didn't betray his friends (but that's Lupin and Draco) or a brave man who did betray some people he cared about, like Snape or Dumbledore. 

As for Dumbledore, if you recall what Sirius says, Crouch sent  a lot of people to Azkaban, many of them  less obviously guilty than Sirius Black, trial or no trial.  If Dumbledore was trying to free anybody, it would be them. There wasn't a reason on earth for him to think that Sirius was innocent before the night of the Shrieking Shack. He wasn't the sort to have eternal faith in the goodness of his friends, not after what happened with Grindelwald.

We know Dumbledore kept close enough watch on Privet Drive to make sure that the DE's weren't able to get in.  As long as they couldn't, Harry was safer in than out. No matter how poorly the Dursleys treated Harry, Petunia wasn't about to let him die and leave Dumbledore with no reason to keep her secret any longer. And keeping Harry alive was what Dumbledore cared about, and all that he cared about, until he and Harry got acquainted. 

Pippin


 






From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Oct  9 02:06:20 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 02:06:20 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i7re6t+mulk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8oims+8jb9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189647



> 
>   
> 
> 1) Do you think, considering that Harry is usually wrong about Professor Snape, that the 'Neville's boggart' story is why Snape seems so tense and angry these days?

nikkalmati

We know he doesn't like or trust Lupin, so he is probably waiting for something bad to happen.  I doubt he liked being laughed at by the students and he probably blamed Lupin.  Lupin did make the suggestion - passive-aggressive anyone?

Nikkalmati
> 
> 2) Do you think Hagrid could have sought or accepted advice about teaching, and who from?

Nikkalmati

I don't think professors are given much training in general.  I think Hagrid would be afraid to reveal his weakness for fear he would be told he didn't belong.  I am not sure regular classroom experience would be much help anyway.  

Nikkalmati

> 
> 3)How do you imagine Hermione survived all those years in the girls' dorms?
> 
Nikkalmati

She seemed to get along with the other girls even if she did not hang out with them.  She probably just ignored any negative comments and they gave up trying to upset her.  After all, she had her two friends and didn't need anyone else.

Nikkalmati

 

> 4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?
>
Nikkalmati

They obviously knew and disliked each other but had to tolerate each other in the situation they were in.  I was interested in the dynamic - especially curious was the potion Snape made for Lupin.  I wanted to know what that was about.
Nikkalmati
    
> 5) Is Lupin's idea that Harry's boggart might be Lord Voldemort reasonable, considering Harry was just over a year old when he saw him?

Nikkalmati

I suppose Lupin was worried about the worst case scenario.  He did not want to upset the class and he could not be sure what Harry remembered.  There was also Diary Tom, whould that have been a problem?

Nikkalmati
 
> 6) Do you think Peeves might have had an amicable relationship with the Marauders, as later it's apparent he has with the Weasley twins, and might he have been present when Sirius was in the castle?
>
Nikkalmati

I don't think the Mauraders woud have had time for Peeves; the twins are more open-minded.  I don't doubt he knew Sirius was in the castle and folloed him to see what he was up to.

Nikkalmati
 
Thank you for doing this chapter for us.





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Oct  9 17:55:24 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 9 Oct 2010 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/10/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1286646924.578.27892.m15@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189648

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From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 10 Oct 2010 17:01:37 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/10/2010, 1:00 pm 
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No: HPFGUIDX 189649

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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 10 19:03:20 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 19:03:20 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8ocnl+ivld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8t2lo+24mu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189650

Pippin wrote:
<big snip>
 
> As for Dumbledore, if you recall what Sirius says, Crouch sent  a lot of people to Azkaban, many of them  less obviously guilty than Sirius Black, trial or no trial.  If Dumbledore was trying to free anybody, it would be them. There wasn't a reason on earth for him to think that Sirius was innocent before the night of the Shrieking Shack. He wasn't the sort to have eternal faith in the goodness of his friends, not after what happened with Grindelwald.
 <snip>

Carol responds:
Exactly. He knew that the Potters had been betrayed by their Secret Keeper, and he had every reason to believe that the Secret Keeper was James's best friend, Sirius Black, since James had told him that was his intention. He "knew" from the massive evidence of the blown-up street, the testimony of the unfortunately mind-wiped Muggles, and the finger that was (apparently) all that was left of Peter Pettigrew, that Sirius had "murdered" Pettigrew (whom everyone "knew" could not outwit or outfight Sirius Black). Had Dumbledore known that Pettigrew was an Animagus, he might have smelled a rat. But he didn't. Unlike the cases of Hokey and Morfin Gaunt, he saw no reason to investigate.

Carol, noting that most of the characters, including Harry, trust the evidence of their senses at some point only to be proven wrong later




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Oct 10 21:11:29 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:11:29 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8b62a+379q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8ta61+fojt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189651



-Potioncat:
> At one point JKR was recalling how she described her ideal man before she met her current husband.
> 
> << I remember speaking to a very good friend and she said what would you like in a man?  And I said I would need to be with someone intelligent, because I just value it.  I would really like for him to have his own carrer... I really thought these were basic things.  Integrity as very important>>
<snip> 
> << and kindness, and a strong sense of who he was... These were things that were all very important>>
> 
> Potioncat:
> That kindness requirement knocked Snape right out of the running.
> Not that there's any reason to think JKR would put that ideal man into her book for any reason---but the only person in HP who fits the description (imo) is Harry. (He may be a tad weak in intelligence, but he has his own sort.)
> 

Pippin:
Sounds like JKR took some of her ideal qualities and divided them among the Houses: Ravenclaws are smart, Hufflepuffs are kind, and Slytherins have a strong sense of who they are.    Voldemort, in his disembodied state, is a sense of self and nothing else. 

It struck me as odd that JKR didn't put courage anywhere in her list -- but maybe that's what she herself would bring to the relationship table. 

I think to create Harry, JKR had to take her ideals and dial them back except for raw courage. Otherwise there wouldn't be room for Harry to grow, and he wouldn't have needed Hermione so much. (Ron, OTOH, is a sort of a yardstick -- we can measure Harry's progress against him.) I think Harry is kind, for the most part, but what he had to learn was that kindness can coexist with cruelty, and, except for a few individuals at the far ends of the spectrum, it usually does. 

He also had to learn that doing what is right rather than what is easy sometimes means being harsh when you would rather be kind, and being kind when you would rather be cruel. I think we can see him struggling with this in his final encounter with Voldemort. He wants to taunt, but he still tries to get Voldemort to see that there's a chance for him to escape the fate that awaits him. 

Pippin






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 10 20:43:14 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 20:43:14 -0000
Subject: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8t2lo+24mu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8t8h2+os7t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189652



> Pippin wrote:
> <big snip>
>  
> > As for Dumbledore, if you recall what Sirius says, Crouch sent  a lot of people to Azkaban, many of them  less obviously guilty than Sirius Black, trial or no trial.  If Dumbledore was trying to free anybody, it would be them. There wasn't a reason on earth for him to think that Sirius was innocent before the night of the Shrieking Shack. He wasn't the sort to have eternal faith in the goodness of his friends, not after what happened with Grindelwald.
>  <snip>


Alla:

No reason at all, except Sirius being a part of Order of Phoenix, part of his supposedly trusted and handpicked fighters. I do agree though that Dumbledore apparently wasn't the sort to have faith in the goodness of his friends. Poor Lily and James probably sensed it from him and no wonder to me that they could not trust him in turn.

And while Crouch certainly sent lots of people to Azkaban, I wonder if any of them was less obviously guilty than Sirius Black.  In fact, I am not sure what does less obviously guilty means, since as we know Sirius was completely innocent, so I think it will be quite hard for many people to be less guilty than completely innocent person.

Oh and as another speculation, freeing any innocent from jail so does not lie with me as something within Dumbledore's character, since the only example canon gives us is to not lay a finger to help the innocent person.

JMO,

Alla

> 
> Carol responds:
> Exactly. He knew that the Potters had been betrayed by their Secret Keeper, and he had every reason to believe that the Secret Keeper was James's best friend, Sirius Black, since James had told him that was his intention. He "knew" from the massive evidence of the blown-up street, the testimony of the unfortunately mind-wiped Muggles, and the finger that was (apparently) all that was left of Peter Pettigrew, that Sirius had "murdered" Pettigrew (whom everyone "knew" could not outwit or outfight Sirius Black). Had Dumbledore known that Pettigrew was an Animagus, he might have smelled a rat. But he didn't. Unlike the cases of Hokey and Morfin Gaunt, he saw no reason to investigate.
> 
> Carol, noting that most of the characters, including Harry, trust the evidence of their senses at some point only to be proven wrong later
>





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Oct 10 23:03:29 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 23:03:29 -0000
Subject: Oviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8t8h2+os7t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8tgo1+rqi6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189653

> > Pippin wrote:
> > <big snip>
> >  
> > > As for Dumbledore, if you recall what Sirius says, Crouch sent  a lot of people to Azkaban, many of them  less obviously guilty than Sirius Black, trial or no trial.  If Dumbledore was trying to free anybody, it would be them. There wasn't a reason on earth for him to think that Sirius was innocent before the night of the Shrieking Shack. He wasn't the sort to have eternal faith in the goodness of his friends, not after what happened with Grindelwald.
> >  <snip>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No reason at all, except Sirius being a part of Order of Phoenix, part of his supposedly trusted and handpicked fighters. 

Pippin:
So?
Dumbledore knew that one of his trusted Order members had to be the spy.  Sirius and Lupin also believed that and wrongly suspected each other.

Peter was a trusted and handpicked fighter too. He was also trusted and handpicked by James and Sirius,  precisely because no one in their right mind would guess that he was the Secret-keeper and Sirius wasn't. 

Alla:
I do agree though that Dumbledore apparently wasn't the sort to have faith in the goodness of his friends. Poor Lily and James probably sensed it from him and no wonder to me that they could not trust him in turn.

Pippin:
Odd, then, that James trusted Dumbledore with, the I-cloak,  his most precious possession I think that James picked Sirius over Dumbledore because he knew Dumbledore suspected Sirius and he wanted to prove to Dumbledore that Sirius could be trusted. That would work even after the switch, as long as they stayed safe and Dumbledore didn't know the switch had been made.


Alla:
> And while Crouch certainly sent lots of people to Azkaban, I wonder if any of them was less obviously guilty than Sirius Black.  In fact, I am not sure what does less obviously guilty means, since as we know Sirius was completely innocent, so I think it will be quite hard for many people to be less guilty than completely innocent person.

Pippin:
I meant, obviously guilty based on the evidence available. IIRC, Sirius says he has no idea if Barty Jr was actually guilty  -- the evidence against him was that he was found in the company of some people who were known to be Death Eaters. One assumes that many other people went to Azkaban based on circumstantial evidence. In Sirius's case, there was a whole street full of eye witnesses.

Alla: 
> Oh and as another speculation, freeing any innocent from jail so does not lie with me as something within Dumbledore's character, since the only example canon gives us is to not lay a finger to help the innocent person.
> 

Pippin:
Dumbledore definitely freed Hagrid on CoS. He also says he tried to free Hokey and Morfin, although he was unsuccessful. There really is no reason for him to lie about that. If he were going to lie, why not say that he did free them and the Ministry hushed it up? 

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 10 23:39:10 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 23:39:10 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8tgo1+rqi6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8tiqu+k2k8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189654


Pippin:
So?
Dumbledore knew that one of his trusted Order members had to be the spy. Sirius
and Lupin also believed that and wrongly suspected each other.

Peter was a trusted and handpicked fighter too. He was also trusted and
handpicked by James and Sirius, precisely because no one in their right mind
would guess that he was the Secret-keeper and Sirius wasn't.

Alla:

Yep, Peter was one too and that is my point too, that any leader of the small hand picked band of fighters (or leader of such group of any size, really) had a duty to investigate further, and yes, I think he owed such duty to ANY person under his command, including Peter.

And, if only he investigated more without taking on faith anything that happened on anybody's behalf *including supposedly dead Peter*, how many interesting things he could have uncovered.

He could not be sure that this is what have happened, he could not have been sure of what happened simply because we KNOW that this is not what happened.

I ranted more than once how much I despise the fact that Dumbledore gave testimony of Sirius "being a secret keeper", but of course this was only the small part of Dumbledore's mindset and the bigger problem, which yes I believe was Dumbledore himself.

Yeah, he was traumatized by his teenage love, which no I do not believe could be even closely analogized to Secret keeper situation, but even if it could (which is not my position at all), I think Dumbledore should have recused himself and actually go and occupy himself with the Ministry. This is the bizarre thing, I think he would not take the mantle he could have been very well suited to, but continued to micromanage with the order and giving the Hogwarts students the education not nearly close to what they needed.

Alla:
I do agree though that Dumbledore apparently wasn't the sort to have faith in
the goodness of his friends. Poor Lily and James probably sensed it from him and
no wonder to me that they could not trust him in turn.

Pippin:
Odd, then, that James trusted Dumbledore with, the I-cloak, his most precious
possession I think that James picked Sirius over Dumbledore because he knew
Dumbledore suspected Sirius and he wanted to prove to Dumbledore that Sirius
could be trusted. That would work even after the switch, as long as they stayed
safe and Dumbledore didn't know the switch had been made.

Alla:

Yeah, you could be right. I am just speculating of course, but I think yours and mine speculations fit equally well. Trusting one with the cloak, is not the same as trusting one with your and your son's lives, and we all know that Potters did not trust Dumbledore to appoint him Harry's guardian (not as if that stopped the bastard of course). And that trust with the cloak of course robbed James from ANY small chance he may have had to escape or to pass it to Lily and for her and Harry to escape instead of him.

IPippin:
Dumbledore definitely freed Hagrid on CoS. He also says he tried to free Hokey
and Morfin, although he was unsuccessful. There really is no reason for him to
lie about that. If he were going to lie, why not say that he did free them and
the Ministry hushed it up?

Alla:

I do not think Hagrid's and Sirius' situation can be compared if for no other reasons that Barty Sr. did not send Hagrid there, so I was not counting him. But sure if you are talking about any people who were sent to Azkaban, he helped to free Hagrid. Now, Hokey and Morfin, I would have counted sure, if I was just as convinced as you are that he did not lie. I think he definitely lie and what he did was to extract their memories and maybe (speculation) helped them to be dead instead. Why leave extra witnesses, if he was supposedly so worried that nobody should know about Voldie being Tom Riddle instead of shouting from the roof?

And yes, I am aware that canon does not say it.






From lynde at post.com  Mon Oct 11 01:40:27 2010
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:40:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8ocnl+ivld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CD36FC693C3255-13FC-95CF@web-mmc-m10.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189655


And yet, Pippen, in spite of all your arguments to the contrary, I know that writers build interesting stories out of what we all know would probably be as boring as plain oatmeal. Rowling wrote a seven book series that kept the world on the edge of our collective seats once. She can do that again, I'm sure.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lynde at post.com  Mon Oct 11 18:51:11 2010
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:51:11 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8ta61+fojt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CD378C682AD9B8-468-324F@web-mmc-d07.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189656






Pippin: 

It struck me as odd that JKR didn't put courage anywhere in her list -- but maybe that's what she herself would bring to the relationship table. 

Lynda: Ah, but she did. Gryffindor.  Bravery/Courage. Yes, there are differences between the two, but they are equable.

Lynda




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Oct 11 20:09:57 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 20:09:57 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8tiqu+k2k8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8vqul+doem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189657


> Alla:
> 
> Yep, Peter was one too and that is my point too, that any leader of the small hand picked band of fighters (or leader of such group of any size, really) had a duty to investigate further, and yes, I think he owed such duty to ANY person under his command, including Peter.
> 
Pippin:
Dumbledore had been investigating for a year. The result of his investigations was the conclusion that Sirius was the spy beyond a reasonable doubt and I think we can agree that the evidence supported that conclusion.   For Dumbledore to think  that Sirius deserved a higher standard of proof than ordinary people got because Sirius was his henchman would be unconscionable, IMO -- that's the morality of a mafioso, or a Malfoy. 

Alla: 
<snip>
 I think Dumbledore should have recused himself and actually go and occupy himself with the Ministry. This is the bizarre thing, I think he would not take the mantle he could have been very well suited to, but continued to micromanage with the order and giving the Hogwarts students the education not nearly close to what they needed.


Pippin:
Huh? You don't like the way Dumbledore exercises his authority and your solution is to give him *more* authority? Don't you see that he would have run the Ministry just as paternalistically as he ran Hogwarts and the Order? 

Harry doesn't quite get it in OOP.  He knows that among the races depicted  only the House Elves would actually want the world to work the way the fountain shows it does, but he doesn't see that he's in the grip of the same childish fantasy himself.

He sees  Dumbledore as  a noble wizard raining goodness down on everybody, and when Dumbledore tries to step out of that role, at the end of the book, Harry won't let him. He's still a child, and he *needs* to think that way. 

 He's angry when Dumbledore confesses to weakness and fallibility. Contrast that with the adult Harry of King's Cross, who can't be angry with Dumbledore once Dumbledore confesses that, yes, he made a mess of it. 


At the end of DH Harry has taken Dumbledore's place as the epitome of goodness, and the children gazing on him idolize him the way they did Dumbledore. But we can see, if we choose to disregard  the glamour, that the epitome of goodness is not a shining idol raining blessings from on high but a scarred veteran, a little sad, a little weary, but content to think that he has done his fallible best to bring a little more love into the world. 

Epilogue!Harry does not want to be anything more, IMO. But Dumbledore did -- he never stopped wanting to be the noble wizard on the pedestal, and whether he was at Hogwarts or at the Ministry, he would have surrounded himself with people who thought that's what he was -- or worse, like Grindelwald, would cynically  pretend to. 


> Alla:
<snip> Trusting one with the cloak, is not the same as trusting one with your and your son's lives, and we all know that Potters did not trust Dumbledore to appoint him Harry's guardian (not as if that stopped the bastard of course).

Pippin:
We all know that Lily refused to believe anything bad about Dumbledore. If she'd had her doubts, wouldn't she have wanted to know more about Dumbledore's  involvement with Grindelwald instead of dismissing the possibility?

However, Dumbledore at the time is somewhere upwards of 90, single, has no experience with small children and is already holding down three or four full time jobs. James and Lily would hardly expect him to raise Harry, and in fact Dumbledore was never Harry's primary caregiver at any time. Let me ask you, if Dumbledore was indeed wrong to place Harry with the Dursleys, and Sirius was unable to stand up to him about it, then how could Sirius have been a fit guardian for Harry?

Alla:
And that trust with the cloak of course robbed James from ANY small chance he may have had to escape or to pass it to Lily and for her and Harry to escape instead of him.

Pippin:
Dumbledore can see through invisibility cloaks. What makes you think Voldemort can't?
Harry certainly never tries to use it to sneak past him.

> 
> Alla:Why leave extra witnesses, if he was supposedly so worried that nobody should know about Voldie being Tom Riddle instead of shouting from the roof?
> 

Pippin:
Witnesses to what? Hokey and Morfin couldn't have known that Tom Riddle was Voldemort. At that time they were arrested, only a few of Tom's old school friends had ever heard the name.  I doubt that even Dumbledore had heard it yet. If Dumbledore had been able to free them, it would have meant that there was some hope of the Ministry realizing there was a killer on the loose. Some effort might have been made to locate Tom and bring him back for questioning. But it seems they were dead  long before Tom's return.

 If Hokey and Morfin had still been alive when Tom did come back, they'd have been safer in Azkaban than out of it. And if Dumbledore had wanted them killed, the simplest way would have been to free them and let Voldemort finish them off. 

As it was there were no living witnesses to Riddle's earlier crimes, so what would be the point of linking Tom and Voldemort? To show that Voldemort wasn't a really pureblood? That wouldn't make him any different from the rest of the pureblood faction, according to JKR. He'd have fit in all the better. 

Pippin





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 12 01:00:29 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:00:29 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i8vqul+doem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i90bvd+edlc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189658




> Pippin:
> Dumbledore had been investigating for a year. The result of his investigations was the conclusion that Sirius was the spy beyond a reasonable doubt and I think we can agree that the evidence supported that conclusion.   For Dumbledore to think  that Sirius deserved a higher standard of proof than ordinary people got because Sirius was his henchman would be unconscionable, IMO -- that's the morality of a mafioso, or a Malfoy. 

Alla:

Where did you get that he was investigating for a year after Peter's "death" whether Sirius was a murderer? I thought he reached his conclusion the very same day (or few hours later)after he heard of Godric Hollow.

And also where is the canon that a year passed when Dumbledore testified at that blasted "hearing" and gave "evidence" that Sirius was a secret keeper. No, I most definitely disagree with this assertion.

> 
> Alla: 
> <snip>
>  I think Dumbledore should have recused himself and actually go and occupy himself with the Ministry. This is the bizarre thing, I think he would not take the mantle he could have been very well suited to, but continued to micromanage with the order and giving the Hogwarts students the education not nearly close to what they needed.
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Huh? You don't like the way Dumbledore exercises his authority and your solution is to give him *more* authority? Don't you see that he would have run the Ministry just as paternalistically as he ran Hogwarts and the Order? 

Alla:

Oh you are right of course - he will harm and hurt anything and anybody he leads, I just wanted him away from those he in my opinion harmed most visibly _ Potters family and their son, Sirius, all those men who agreed to fight under him. In other words yes, he will run the Ministry same way, but since I think that Ministry is most consists of evil bastards (yes, I know before you say so there was Amelia Bones and Arthur there, thus I am saying mostly), maybe this is what Ministry needed. In other words I consider Ministry's workers as a whole more evil or at least more susceptible to evil than Dumbledore so whenever he leads them, maybe it will do them some good, lol.


Pippin:
<SNIP>

> Epilogue!Harry does not want to be anything more, IMO. But Dumbledore did -- he never stopped wanting to be the noble wizard on the pedestal, and whether he was at Hogwarts or at the Ministry, he would have surrounded himself with people who thought that's what he was -- or worse, like Grindelwald, would cynically  pretend to. 

Alla:

I am not getting your point here, are you trying to prove to me that Harry is less susceptible to power corruption than Dumbledore? If this is so, there is no need, I know this lol.

> 
> > Alla:
> <snip> Trusting one with the cloak, is not the same as trusting one with your and your son's lives, and we all know that Potters did not trust Dumbledore to appoint him Harry's guardian (not as if that stopped the bastard of course).
> 
> Pippin:
> We all know that Lily refused to believe anything bad about Dumbledore. If she'd had her doubts, wouldn't she have wanted to know more about Dumbledore's  involvement with Grindelwald instead of dismissing the possibility?

Alla:

Possibly, however if she wanted to contradict James and insist that they should go with Dumbledore, do you think James would have argued with her? So maybe she had some doubts after all IMO.


Pippin: 
> However, Dumbledore at the time is somewhere upwards of 90, single, has no experience with small children and is already holding down three or four full time jobs. James and Lily would hardly expect him to raise Harry, and in fact Dumbledore was never Harry's primary caregiver at any time. Let me ask you, if Dumbledore was indeed wrong to place Harry with the Dursleys, and Sirius was unable to stand up to him about it, then how could Sirius have been a fit guardian for Harry?

Alla:

Funny, the way I remember it Dumbledore never gave him a chance to stand up to him, instead he committed his little conspiracy to kidnap by using his loyal servant, Hagrid. And still Sirius argued with him. Not enough,sure, but he *did*, this is more than ANY Member of the order did, ever, nobody ever questioned great Albus Dumbledore (Harry notwithstanding). So, no I do not think that means that Sirius is unfit guardian. Let's also not forget that Sirius was the only one who wanted Harry to know truth about the situation and thanks to whom only Harry at least learned something of what was happening. Again, he did allow himself to be stopped by that shrieking Harpy (Molly), but you know, since I do not think that Sirius was ever completely psychologically stable after he escaped Azkaban, I will cut him slack. I think, all things considering he did better by Harry than ANY of the adults did ever. And again before you say so yes I remember those horrible things he said to Harry in OOP. I am saying by comparison with any other adult.




> Pippin:
> Dumbledore can see through invisibility cloaks. What makes you think Voldemort can't?
> Harry certainly never tries to use it to sneak past him.

Alla:

Because there is no indication in canon that I remember?


JMO,

Alla





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Oct 12 14:23:28 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 14:23:28 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i90bvd+edlc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i91r10+v97n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189659

 
> Alla:
> 
> Where did you get that he was investigating for a year after Peter's "death" whether Sirius was a murderer? I thought he reached his conclusion the very same day (or few hours later)after he heard of Godric Hollow.

Pippin:
He was investigating for a year *before* Peter's "death" --  Sirius knew the spy had been active for that long. Order members were being picked off one by one, remember? As far as everyone knew, Peter was  the last in a long string of Order members murdered by the spy. Dumbledore's conviction that Sirius was a murderer didn't begin with the attack on the Potters or Peter's death -- he'd suspected it for a long time already.

> Alla:
> 
> Oh you are right of course - he will harm and hurt anything and anybody he leads, I just wanted him away from those he in my opinion harmed most visibly _ Potters family and their son, Sirius, all those men who agreed to fight under him.

Pippin:
Scrimgeour and Fudge  showed no inclination to leave either Harry  or Hogwarts alone, so I can't think why Dumbledore wouldn't involve himself. He'd still think Sirius was guilty, he'd still see Harry as a way to locate the horcrux(es) and he'd still see the Harry!crux as something that had to be destroyed eventually, for Harry's own good as well as the rest of the WW.

He probably wouldn't have placed Harry at the Dursleys though, because he'd be trusting the power of the Ministry more than the power of love. He'd want, let's see, a powerful magical family with anti-Dark Arts pro-Ministry cred.  So Harry dies before his second birthday, murdered by his foster brother Barty Jr. Oops.
 
> Pippin:
> <SNIP>
> 
> > Epilogue!Harry does not want to be anything more, IMO. But Dumbledore did -- he never stopped wanting to be the noble wizard on the pedestal, and whether he was at Hogwarts or at the Ministry, he would have surrounded himself with people who thought that's what he was -- or worse, like Grindelwald, would cynically  pretend to. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am not getting your point here, are you trying to prove to me that Harry is less susceptible to power corruption than Dumbledore? If this is so, there is no need, I know this lol.
> 

Pippin:
No, I am saying that Dumbledore wasn't as different from Harry as you think. He too was doing his fallible best to bring some love into the world. But he wanted to shine while doing it. He wasn't, IMO, out to humiliate, torture or kill for the fun of it and he wouldn't have done that at the Ministry. But the essential lie at the heart of the Ministry's existence needs enforcers to keep it going. If Dumbledore had succeeded in getting rid of Umbridge and the dementors, their replacements would have been just as bad. He was willing to look the other way at what Grindelwald was planning, and he knew it would have been the same at the Ministry, IMO.


> 
> Alla:.<snip> Let's also not forget that Sirius was the only one who wanted Harry to know truth about the situation and thanks to whom only Harry at least learned something of what was happening. Again, he did allow himself to be stopped by that shrieking Harpy (Molly), but you know, since I do not think that Sirius was ever completely psychologically stable after he escaped Azkaban, I will cut him slack. 

Pippin:
If he wasn't psychologically stable, then Dumbledore was right to think he shouldn't be going out on missions. And I don't get your criticism of Molly. She's on your side, she doesn't think Harry belongs in this war. Sirius, OTOH, can't wait for Harry to grow up and fight for the Order. And that doesn't mean dressing up with robes and wands and having cool adventures. It means dying for your friends. He'd have died for Peter, and he would have expected Harry to do no less. 

As for the cloak:
James himself took the cloak and wore it outside the house more than once. He obviously didn't think it was going to defend Harry and Lily. Also, Voldemort knew the Stone was in Harry's pocket. He doesn't need to see things to know where they are.

Pippin






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 13 02:57:37 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:57:37 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i91r10+v97n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i93771+l4l1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189660


> > Alla:
> > 
> > Where did you get that he was investigating for a year after Peter's "death" whether Sirius was a murderer? I thought he reached his conclusion the very same day (or few hours later)after he heard of Godric Hollow.
> 
> Pippin:
> He was investigating for a year *before* Peter's "death" --  Sirius knew the spy had been active for that long. Order members were being picked off one by one, remember? As far as everyone knew, Peter was  the last in a long string of Order members murdered by the spy. Dumbledore's conviction that Sirius was a murderer didn't begin with the attack on the Potters or Peter's death -- he'd suspected it for a long time already.

Alla:

Of course I do remember that, but that to me really is not the same. As far as I remember nobody specifically suspected a spy of killing people, only about passing on information. Also "order members being picked up one by one" was from Lupin's speech,no? The one where he says that it happened because Death eaters were so much more by numbers, sorry too tired to go look up the quote, but I believe my parahprase is pretty close.

So what I am trying to say is this:

a) I do not believe that Dumbledore suspected Sirius for a year, I am thinking his suspicions wondered between all Order members and b) while passing information is definitely an act of the traitor I do not remember the canon saying that spy killed all these people, so I am arguing that this is the first act of murder where spy was supposedly directly involved in, thus I think Dumbledore should have started much more vigorous investigation and a new.


> > Alla:
> > 
> > Oh you are right of course - he will harm and hurt anything and anybody he leads, I just wanted him away from those he in my opinion harmed most visibly _ Potters family and their son, Sirius, all those men who agreed to fight under him.
> 
> Pippin:
> Scrimgeour and Fudge  showed no inclination to leave either Harry  or Hogwarts alone, so I can't think why Dumbledore wouldn't involve himself. He'd still think Sirius was guilty, he'd still see Harry as a way to locate the horcrux(es) and he'd still see the Harry!crux as something that had to be destroyed eventually, for Harry's own good as well as the rest of the WW.

Alla:

He may, or he may not, after all do we know for sure that Fudge even knew where Harry was spending his eleven years before it was revealed by Dumbledore?

Before you say it yes, I know that Fudge knew about Marge's predicament in PoA, I am saying that before Harry came to Hogwarts he may not even known that he was staying with Dursleys till Dumbledore deemed it fit to inform him. So maybe if Dumbledore was out of the loop, maybe... But if he was not out of the loop, sure I will agree that he will do his best to involve himself, as I said I am just coming up with possibilities of alternative future.


Pippin:
> He probably wouldn't have placed Harry at the Dursleys though, because he'd be trusting the power of the Ministry more than the power of love. He'd want, let's see, a powerful magical family with anti-Dark Arts pro-Ministry cred.  So Harry dies before his second birthday, murdered by his foster brother Barty Jr. Oops.

Alla:

Sorry, does not work this way in my scenario, in my scenario Dumbledore cannot touch Harry because somebody already took him away far from the bastard's prying eyes.


> Pippin:
> No, I am saying that Dumbledore wasn't as different from Harry as you think. He too was doing his fallible best to bring some love into the world. But he wanted to shine while doing it. He wasn't, IMO, out to humiliate, torture or kill for the fun of it and he wouldn't have done that at the Ministry. But the essential lie at the heart of the Ministry's existence needs enforcers to keep it going. If Dumbledore had succeeded in getting rid of Umbridge and the dementors, their replacements would have been just as bad. He was willing to look the other way at what Grindelwald was planning, and he knew it would have been the same at the Ministry, IMO.

Alla:

Sorry, but Dumbledore claims that he is very very different from Harry. Yes, I know I have to be consistent and either believe him or not, but supposedly in the King's Cross he is dead, so maybe there is bigger chance that he is telling the truth lol. Dumbledore may have wanted to bring love in the world in a twisted way that he understands it (no friend, no significant other, no confidant, no trusted companion, NO family, what do you think he knows about the love by the way?), but he also wanted as you put it to "shine" while doing it, or as I put it to be worshipped and unquestionably followed, while he manipulated and twisted people's lives. To me it makes him very different from Harry.


JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 13 11:20:59 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:20:59 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i93771+l4l1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i944mr+di79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189661



> Alla:
> 
> Sorry, but Dumbledore claims that he is very very different from Harry. Yes, I know I have to be consistent and either believe him or not, but supposedly in the King's Cross he is dead, so maybe there is bigger chance that he is telling the truth lol. Dumbledore may have wanted to bring love in the world in a twisted way that he understands it (no friend, no significant other, no confidant, no trusted companion, NO family, what do you think he knows about the love by the way?), <SNIP>

Alla:

Ooops, should read NO family but estranged brother of course.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Oct 14 00:26:37 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 00:26:37 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i93771+l4l1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i95int+6c2j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189662


> > > Alla:
> > > 
> 
> Of course I do remember that, but that to me really is not the same. As far as I remember nobody specifically suspected a spy of killing people, only about passing on information. 

Pippin:
Voldemort was not hunting James and Lily so that he could challenge them to a game of gobstones, LOL. Of course the spy was suspected of killing people. Sirius is outraged when Peter tries to claim that he didn't know what would happen. 

Anyway, The Order was not a bunch of schoolkids playing soldiers.  They  killed when they had to. Dumbledore says as much. So do Sirius and Lupin. As for Sirius, do I need to say that he had proved himself capable of murder when he was sixteen?

Did you not think of the spy when Lupin said they were being picked off one by one?

I'm sure  when the DE's had a chance to call in reinforcements Order members died, and Lupin was referring to that as well. But "one by one" sounds like ambushes and traps to me. So does Moody's description of how various Order members died.

> Alla:
> 
do we know for sure that Fudge even knew where Harry was spending his eleven years before it was revealed by Dumbledore?

Pippin:
Yes, Fudge mentions that the Ministry has always kept a close watch on Privet Drive. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sorry, but Dumbledore claims that he is very very different from Harry. Yes, I know I have to be consistent and either believe him or not, but supposedly in the King's Cross he is dead, so maybe there is bigger chance that he is telling the truth lol. Dumbledore may have wanted to bring love in the world in a twisted way that he understands it (no friend, no significant other, no confidant, no trusted companion, NO family, what do you think he knows about the love by the way?), but he also wanted as you put it to "shine" while doing it, or as I put it to be worshipped and unquestionably followed, while he manipulated and twisted people's lives. To me it makes him very different from Harry

Pippin:
I think DD knows about love like a farmer could know everything about growing, selling and preparing apples without having  eaten one himself since he was eighteen years old. DD says that he loved his sister and his brother, and Harry, and since you have just proposed that he was telling the truth at King's Cross, we must believe him.

Yes, he is very different from Harry. He is much more selfish, but  I do not think that means he is only selfish, rather that he has a mixture of selfish and altruistic motives, like most people. 

And what I am trying to show here is that in the case of Sirius, implying that Dumbledore did so much twisting as you think requires quite a bit of backflip.

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 14 23:54:15 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 23:54:15 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i95int+6c2j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i98577+9186@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189663



> Pippin:
> Voldemort was not hunting James and Lily so that he could challenge them to a game of gobstones, LOL. Of course the spy was suspected of killing people. Sirius is outraged when Peter tries to claim that he didn't know what would happen. 

Alla:

I meant not suspected of killing people *directly* Pippin. Of course passing the information lead to bad things for the Order, but what exactly contributed to what specific bad things I do not know, meaning who exactly died specifically due to him passing information.
Anyway, all that I am saying that when you claim that Dumbledore was investigating the murder for a year *before* it happened, I just do not think it was the same thing at all and IMO he should have started a new,

Pippin:
> Anyway, The Order was not a bunch of schoolkids playing soldiers.  They  killed when they had to. Dumbledore says as much. So do Sirius and Lupin. <SNIP>
Alla:

Yes, but they supposedly killed for righteous cause, did they not and no, I do not remember the references to Order members killing people at random? Supposedly they killed when there was no other choice, even Moody supposdly tried to bring people in alive even if not succesful. Are you saying that Dumbledore should have just ASSumed (pun intended) that because they killed Death Eaters they would just turn a switch and turn on their own.


Pippin:
> Did you not think of the spy when Lupin said they were being picked off one by one?
> 
> I'm sure  when the DE's had a chance to call in reinforcements Order members died, and Lupin was referring to that as well. But "one by one" sounds like ambushes and traps to me. So does Moody's description of how various Order members died.


Alla:

Honestly and truly did not even enter my mind, not that I disagree that information about specific mission could have lead to deaths, but all I was and am thinking about is the fact that Deatheaters led numbers. 20:1


> Pippin:
> I think DD knows about love like a farmer could know everything about growing, selling and preparing apples without having  eaten one himself since he was eighteen years old. DD says that he loved his sister and his brother, and Harry, and since you have just proposed that he was telling the truth at King's Cross, we must believe him.

Alla:

Dumbledore claims to love his sister, who he did not want to take care of and planned to leave the world. Dumbledore claimed to love his brother, whom he IMO treated abominably.

Dumbledore indeed claims to love Harry whom he was raising "as pig for slaughter". You are right, I do believe Dumbledore was telling a truth in King's Cross as he understood it. If this is the love Dumbledore knows about, God please save me from somebody who thinks that this is what love is, IMO.


Pippin: 
> Yes, he is very different from Harry. He is much more selfish, but  I do not think that means he is only selfish, rather that he has a mixture of selfish and altruistic motives, like most people. 
> 
> And what I am trying to show here is that in the case of Sirius, implying that Dumbledore did so much twisting as you think requires quite a bit of backflip.


Alla:

No, while I may speculate to my heart's contest about what a disgusting person Dumbledore is, that he did twisting in the case of Sirius only requires canon IMO.

He did not go to the house himself, he sent Hagrid. I was talking about extensive investigation, but really all he needed is whatever one legilimency conversation takes, ONE conversation, just one Pippin.

How do I know that? As I said several times its because that's exactly all it took for mighty Dumbledore to establish Sirius' innocence in PoA. One conversation.

And you may argue that poor dear was so devastated that he never went to see Sirius in Azkaban and have that one conversation, only we know that he has a reason to keep Sirius away, he took a boy whose guardian Sirius was supposed to be and would be if he is innocent. 

Of course it is an inference that Dumbledore deliberately did not do it, but far fetched inference? I do not think so.

JMO,
Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 15 00:02:23 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 00:02:23 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i98577+9186@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i985mf+p3u1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189664

P.S.

And here is another inference, which believe it or not I just had, how many times Dumbledore is shown in the book legilimensing Harry, when he thinks that HArry is hiding important stuff? A lot of times IMO. Do you think it is too far fetched that he legilimensed James when he saw him last time? I do not think it is too far fetched at all and I think he saw that Sirius will not be secret keeper. Yeah, I think he may have done it deliberately all right. Oh dear,now  I completely went to the Dark side. Honestly the thought of him legilimenzing James for some reason never entered my mind.

JMO,

Alla




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Oct 15 03:04:58 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 03:04:58 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i985mf+p3u1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i98gcq+4smq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189665



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> P.S.
> 
> And here is another inference, which believe it or not I just had, how many times Dumbledore is shown in the book legilimensing Harry, when he thinks that HArry is hiding important stuff? A lot of times IMO. Do you think it is too far fetched that he legilimensed James when he saw him last time? I do not think it is too far fetched at all and I think he saw that Sirius will not be secret keeper. Yeah, I think he may have done it deliberately all right. Oh dear,now  I completely went to the Dark side. Honestly the thought of him legilimenzing James for some reason never entered my mind.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla

Nikkalmati

Based on my understanding of canon, I don't believe it is possible to legitimize someone without the victim knowing it.  I can't think of a single instance where it is even hinted that it can bne done secretly.  Sheer speculation.

Nikkalmati  
>





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 15 11:25:50 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:25:50 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i98gcq+4smq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i99dnu+oi3c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189666



> Nikkalmati
> 
> Based on my understanding of canon, I don't believe it is possible to legitimize someone without the victim knowing it.  I can't think of a single instance where it is even hinted that it can bne done secretly.  Sheer speculation.


Alla:

It is not a speculation all those times when Dumbledore (and Snape of course)looks at Harry and Harry thinks he knows what he is thinking about. Of course Dumbledore does not confirm it to us saying oh yes, I am legilimensing you Harry, but to me it is obvious. Especially knowing that legilimency is introduced in OOP and this is exactly what Snape does when he legilimences Harry and it is spelled out in OOP. IMO, yes all those times it was legilimency. Otherwise why did she need to stress it out that Dumbledore or Snape look in Harry's eyes so carefully when this is exactly what legilimency does? I think it was clever and quite obvious foreshadowing. One time that comes to me off the top of my head is when Dumbledore asks Harry about whether he is hiding something in CoS (about hearing basilisk). Dumbledore has had to have a reason to know everything and in OOP I was like oh, here is the reason, he together with his minion Snape mind rapes Harry every time he hunts for the information,

Just my opinion of course, but I totally disagree that it is a sheer speculation as you said. IMO at the very least it is a very legit canon supported inference.

Alla 




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Oct 16 01:30:14 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 01:30:14 -0000
Subject: Obviously guilty was Re: JKR/Oprah interview
In-Reply-To: <i99dnu+oi3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9av76+5v0p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189667



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > Based on my understanding of canon, I don't believe it is possible to legitimize someone without the victim knowing it.  I can't think of a single instance where it is even hinted that it can bne done secretly.  Sheer speculation.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> It is not a speculation all those times when Dumbledore (and Snape of course)looks at Harry and Harry thinks he knows what he is thinking about. Of course Dumbledore does not confirm it to us saying oh yes, I am legilimensing you Harry, but to me it is obvious. Especially knowing that legilimency is introduced in OOP and this is exactly what Snape does when he legilimences Harry and it is spelled out in OOP. IMO, yes all those times it was legilimency. Otherwise why did she need to stress it out that Dumbledore or Snape look in Harry's eyes so carefully when this is exactly what legilimency does? I think it was clever and quite obvious foreshadowing. One time that comes to me off the top of my head is when Dumbledore asks Harry about whether he is hiding something in CoS (about hearing basilisk). Dumbledore has had to have a reason to know everything and in OOP I was like oh, here is the reason, he together with his minion Snape mind rapes Harry every time he hunts for the information,
> 
> Just my opinion of course, but I totally disagree that it is a sheer speculation as you said. IMO at the very least it is a very legit canon supported inference.
> 
> Alla
>
Nikkalmati

So DD and Snape are constantly gathering information through legilimency which they never pass on to others or use in any way.  For example, DD knows Harry is hearing voices saying "kill, kill" but decides - what the heck, it doesn't mean anything.  Oh, also, years earlier DD knows Tom has let the Basilisk loose and that Hagrid is innocent, but never takes any action.  DD for some reason can't legilimentize Slughorn to get the information he wants about Tom as a student, and Snape just wants Harry to know he has seen the Potions book when he does legilimentize Harry after Secumsempra?  Of course, neither of them can figure out what Draco is doing in HBP despite being so great at stealth legilimency.  Doesn't add up.

Nikkalmati






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 16 02:35:02 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 02:35:02 -0000
Subject: Legilimency without consent WAS: Obviously guilty
In-Reply-To: <i9av76+5v0p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9b30m+hlu0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189668



> Nikkalmati
> 
> So DD and Snape are constantly gathering information through legilimency which they never pass on to others or use in any way.


Alla:

Eh yes, this is how Dumbledore works does he not? Prefers to keep it all to himself, deals with it alone as he sees fit, no matter what mess he makes out og it sometimes.


Nikkalmati:
For example, DD knows Harry is hearing voices saying "kill, kill" but decides - what the heck, it doesn't mean anything. 

Alla:

Are you doubting it? How is it more strange than Dumbledore not closing the school actually SEEING that people are being petrified? I do not think he decided it does not mean anything I think he just confirmed to himself that Harry is a Parseltongue and proceeded to sit and watch what Harry will do with it. IMO of course.

Nikkalmati:
Oh, also, years earlier DD knows Tom has let the Basilisk loose and that Hagrid is innocent, but never takes any action. 

Alla:

Well, Dumbledore knew quite a lot about Tommy's activities, did he not?  I do not know if he managed to legilimize him every time, maybe Tom simply did not let him, maybe he was already Occlumenc or run away every time Dumbledore tried. I am not supposing that Dumbledore legilimenced every person he found suspicious, although with Tom is quite likely. I am supposing that performing what Legilimenc does in the books which soon are going to tell us that such activity exists actually means that it was Legilimency.

Oh and about not knowing about performing Legilimency without consent. We do know one person who does it for sure, otherwise Snape would not have need to train as Occlumenc, no? I highly doubt that Voldemort was asking permission from him before legilimising him LOLOL.

And if Voldemort does it, I am hundred percent sure that in those scenes Dumbledore does too.

Nikkalmati:
DD for some reason can't legilimentize Slughorn to get the information he wants about Tom as a student, and Snape just wants Harry to know he has seen the Potions book when he does legilimentize Harry after Secumsempra?

Alla:

When did Dumbledore say that he cannot do it? I think he just wanted to make sure Harry knows how to manipulate people in other words to teach him a lesson. I think Dumbledore could have done it himself IMO of course.


Nikkalmati:
Of course, neither of them can figure out what Draco is doing in HBP despite being so great at stealth legilimency.  

Alla:

Granted I have not reread HBP or DH for a long time, but even now I have a distinct impression that Dumbledore was very aware what Draco was up too and again, you need to look person in the eyes and Draco did not want to see Dumbledore or Snape close so maybe his last minute plans were the only thing they did not know?

Nikkalmati:
Doesn't add up.

Alla:

It adds up perfectly to me, it is exactly what I think Dumbledore's character is and Snape as his faithful servant whatever information he gathered would pass it to him only IMO.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 16 17:48:30 2010
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:48:30 -0000
Subject: Legilimency without consent WAS: Obviously guilty
In-Reply-To: <i9b30m+hlu0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9cohe+n3er@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189669




--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> about not knowing about performing Legilimency 
> without consent. 

zanooda:

A Legilimens doesn't need a consent, but doesn't he need an eye contact to get into someone's head :-)? At the very least, the eye contact is *very* important. Both DD and Snape legilimenced Harry in earlier books, because he didn't know what they were doing, otherwise he would have just avoided their probing gaze. 

Unlike Harry, James must have known about DD's ability, and if he was determined to hide the SK switch from DD, all he has to do was not to look him directly in the eye.

Besides, I thought there were two types of Legilimency: the one that requires a spell and the one that doesn't. The one with the spell is much more intrusive and can't go unnoticed, but gives a much clearer picture. The one without a spell doesn't alert the legilimenced person, but gives a very vague picture, more like an impression. 

For instance, Snape was so convinced in GoF that Harry stole gillyweed and other stuff from him because he saw some guilty thoughts in Harry's mind. However, if he could legilimence Harry properly with the spell, like he did during their Legilimency lessons, he would have likely realized that it wasn't Harry who stole the ingredients. 

So even if DD tried to legilimence James, without the spell and without the eye contact he wouldn't have seen much. Nothing coherent at least, IMO :-).




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Oct 16 17:55:45 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 16 Oct 2010 17:55:45 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/17/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1287251745.618.2299.m15@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189670

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From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 16 23:41:01 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 23:41:01 -0000
Subject: Legilimency without consent WAS: Obviously guilty
In-Reply-To: <i9cohe+n3er@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9dd6d+hql8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189671



Alla:
<SNIP> 
> > about not knowing about performing Legilimency 
> > without consent. 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> A Legilimens doesn't need a consent, but doesn't he need an eye contact to get into someone's head :-)?

Alla:

Yes, of course! Glad to see that we agree that Legilimency does not need consent, I was surprised that I even have to prove that something that looks and smells as Legilimency is actually a Legilimency :)

Zanooda:
At the very least, the eye contact is *very* important. Both DD and Snape legilimenced Harry in earlier books, because he didn't know what they were doing, otherwise he would have just avoided their probing gaze. 

Alla:

And again, I say yes certainly I am in complete agreement with you.

Zanooda:
> Unlike Harry, James must have known about DD's ability, and if he was determined to hide the SK switch from DD, all he has to do was not to look him directly in the eye.

Alla:

Now, before I say anything further, let me stress that I totally understand that whether he legilimenced James or not is not possible to prove and I am speculating. I base it on Dumbledore's character as I understand it in general that he would never IMO let something important to him go if he can get such knowledge and on him repeatedly legilimencing Harry without his consent. Having said it, you could be totally right and he may not have done it.

However, how do we know that James knew swat about  Dumbledore doing Legilimency on him?(for that matter how did he know that Legilimency even exists? Oh being from Wizarding family he must have I suppose, but do we know for sure?).

I agree though that if he suspected that Dumbledore could have done it, he would have tried to avoid it. But I thought when Dumbledore borrowed the Cloak they already decided to do the switch? Do you see them meeting and James constantly not looking at Dumbledore? I think that it is very likely that he looked at least once and that is all Dumbledore needed to get what he wanted I think.


Zanooda:
> Besides, I thought there were two types of Legilimency: the one that requires a spell and the one that doesn't. The one with the spell is much more intrusive and can't go unnoticed, but gives a much clearer picture. The one without a spell doesn't alert the legilimenced person, but gives a very vague picture, more like an impression. 

Alla:

I do not know whether those are two types of Legilimency, but I would agree that spell  could give more clear picture as in the lessons. However do we know how *less* clearer the picture is without consent and whether spell always would give more clear picture?

Zanooda:
> For instance, Snape was so convinced in GoF that Harry stole gillyweed and other stuff from him because he saw some guilty thoughts in Harry's mind. However, if he could legilimence Harry properly with the spell, like he did during their Legilimency lessons, he would have likely realized that it wasn't Harry who stole the ingredients. 

Alla:

Sure you could be absolutely right. I think Snape would have reacted same way though no matter what he saw.

Zanooda:
> So even if DD tried to legilimence James, without the spell and without the eye contact he wouldn't have seen much. Nothing coherent at least, IMO :-).

Alla:

As I said above it is my speculation that eye contact was pretty impossible to avoid during that meeting and we do not know how clear picture would have been without spell. I mean, comparatively speaking. It is not like Dumbledore would have hunt particularly deeply for the thoughts about Secret keeper IMO, I think that could have been one of the thoughts on James' mind which was very important to him and was not on the back of his mind at all.

JMO,

Alla





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Oct 17 03:10:09 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 03:10:09 -0000
Subject: Legilimency without consent WAS: Obviously guilty
In-Reply-To: <i9dd6d+hql8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9dpeh+uh3e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189672



 
> 
> Zanooda:
> At the very least, the eye contact is *very* important. Both DD and Snape legilimenced Harry in earlier books, because he didn't know what they were doing, otherwise he would have just avoided their probing gaze. 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Now, before I say anything further, let me stress that I totally understand that whether he legilimenced James or not is not possible to prove and I am speculating. I base it on Dumbledore's character as I understand it in general that he would never IMO let something important to him go if he can get such knowledge and on him repeatedly legilimencing Harry without his consent. 
> 
> Alla
>
Nikkalmati

I agree that the Legilimans does not need consent, but can he or she do it without being detected?  I guess I would need chapter and verse on when Snape and DD are suspected of performing it undected on Harry (or anyone else) before I would take it as proof that such a thing is possible.  

Nikkalmati





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Oct 17 06:18:35 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 06:18:35 -0000
Subject: Legilimency without consent WAS: Obviously guilty
In-Reply-To: <i9dd6d+hql8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9e4fr+4u0k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189673

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

Zanooda:
> > Unlike Harry, James must have known about DD's ability, and if he was determined to hide the SK switch from DD, all he has to do was not to look him directly in the eye.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Now, before I say anything further, let me stress that I totally understand that whether he legilimenced James or not is not possible to prove and I am speculating. I base it on Dumbledore's character as I understand it in general that he would never IMO let something important to him go if he can get such knowledge and on him repeatedly legilimencing Harry without his consent. Having said it, you could be totally right and he may not have done it.
> 
> However, how do we know that James knew swat about  Dumbledore doing Legilimency on him?(for that matter how did he know that Legilimency even exists? Oh being from Wizarding family he must have I suppose, but do we know for sure?).

Geoff:
Just putting my oar in, having followed this discussion without previously 
commenting, I would make two points:

First, James, as you say was from a wizarding family and I am quite sure
that he would know about Legilimency (and Occlumency) and presumably, 
since Dumbledore was knpwn throughout the wizarding world and was also 
known personally to him, must have realised that he was a powerful
Legilimens and Occlumens.

Second, I don't think that wizards wanting to Legilimise someone else are using
different sorts of Legilimency; I would read this as similar to magic using a wand 
and performing it wandlessly. It hinges on the power and training of the individual 
wizard.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Oct 17 17:01:32 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 17 Oct 2010 17:01:32 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/17/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1287334892.561.86136.m17@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189674

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 18 04:27:40 2010
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:27:40 -0000
Subject: Legilimency without consent WAS: Obviously guilty
In-Reply-To: <i9dd6d+hql8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9gibs+7685@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189675




--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> Glad to see that we agree that Legilimency does not need consent

zanooda:

Well, yeah, LV obviously didn't ask Gregorovitch's permission to get into his mind, did he :-)? That was very forceful... ;-(.

> Alla:
 
> I do not know whether those are two types of Legilimency, but 
> I would agree that spell  could give more clear picture as 
> in the lessons.

zanooda:

Right, not two types, just two ways to do it, one more effective than the other.

> Alla:

> However do we know how *less* clearer the picture is 
> without consent and whether spell always would give 
> more clear picture?

zanooda:

No, as you said, it's mostly guesses and speculations, from my part as well as from yours :-). We have a good example of noticeably less clear picture in the case of Snape and the stolen potion ingredients, but unfortunately we can't be 100% percent sure that Snape legilimenced Harry at all then. It's just our guess, although a very good one :-).  

> Alla:
 
> I think Snape would have reacted same way though no matter 
> what he saw.

zanooda:

Snape wouldn't have accused Harry of stealing the boomslang skin and whatever else if he could see clearly in his mind that he didn't do it. What would be the point :-)? 





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Oct 19 02:08:24 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 02:08:24 -0000
Subject: Legilimency without consent WAS: Obviously guilty
In-Reply-To: <i9dpeh+uh3e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9iuio+vije@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189676


> Nikkalmati
> 
> I agree that the Legilimans does not need consent, but can he or she do it without being detected?  I guess I would need chapter and verse on when Snape and DD are suspected of performing it undected on Harry (or anyone else) before I would take it as proof that such a thing is possible.  

Pippin:
I don't think it's stealth, exactly. Harry gets a distinct sensation when Dumbledore looks intently at him, as if he is being x-rayed. It's just that he doesn't know what it means. And certainly people know when Voldemort is invading their minds, though again Harry doesn't know what it means in the earlier books and  is only aware of his burning scar. 

I would say that Dumbledore and Voldemort are such powerful legilimenses that they can't use stealth except when they're dealing with a Muggle or a  naive inexperienced wizard. 

Draco can sense that Snape is trying to legilimens him and block it. I'd say, too, that if Snape thought occlumency was difficult, he would have been sure from the start that Harry could not learn it, and rather impressed that Draco did. 

That would indicate to me that all the Marauders learned occlumency as a matter of course.  Just as  anyone studying the art of disguise in RL would be sure to discover the importance of learning to disguise one's walk as well as one's general appearance, a wizarding book on the art of disguise would surely mention the need to disguise one's thoughts. 

In James's case, there's also the problem that Dumbledore would not get an important piece of information, like finding out that Peter is going to be the Secret-keeper, and just sit on it. He would try to use it in some way. That would draw his attention to Peter, and then surely he would have found out that Peter was the spy. 

Now, one could postulate an ESE!Dumbledore who did know that. 

But it's not like Dumbledore to know something that Voldemort thinks is secret from him and not use it in some way. He wouldn't just wait for Peter to act, he'd try to push him one way or the other, and there's no canon showing that. Certainly if Peter had any inkling that Dumbledore suspected him at all, he'd never have chosen Hogwarts for a place to hide.

I also think that we  get a clue when Dumbledore sees an advantage or something works out according to his plans -- he can't help but be pleased with himself. But there's never any clue that he's happy about Sirius's death or captivity, still less James' and Lily's. 

Pippin










From ocegree at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 19 06:43:21 2010
From: ocegree at yahoo.com (Allan)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 06:43:21 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa
Message-ID: <i9jem9+ef0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189677

I know it is old but I just finished reading TDH and I can only guess that Voldemort was stunned after he "killed" Harry.  I think that because of the image of the deformed infant that both Harry & Prof Dumbledore refer to.  Is it possible the Voldemort has no memory of what happened while Harry & Dumbledore were speaking?  If this be true then he simply pointed to the first person he saw.

Robert




From bs364615 at skynet.be  Wed Oct 20 03:18:13 2010
From: bs364615 at skynet.be (Karlijn)
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 03:18:13 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
Message-ID: <i9ln1l+gn20@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189679

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CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Chapter 9: Grim Defeat



The students get to sleep in the Great Hall for the night and Sir Cadogan
becomes the temporary Gryffindor guard. Oliver Wood is upset to hear the first
Quidditch match will be against Hufflepuff after training specifically for
playing against Slytherin. Professor Lupin is ill and is replaced by Snape who
is his acerbic self. And in the days running up to the first Quidditch match
the weather becomes worse and worse and the game is played during a foul storm.
Harry isn't distracted by the atrocious weather alone: he sees another grim and
the dementors attack. Result: Harry faints mid air (and lands himself in
hospital again), Cedric catches the snitch and Harry's Nimbus is smashed into
smithereens.



Questions:

1. A school-wide sleep-over, mixed gender (Hermione sleeps close to Ron and
Harry), and with 11 to 17 year olds ? Can you imagine this happening at your
school ? both when you were young and/or for your kids nowadays - whichever
applies ? Especially with little to no adult supervision ? only Percy seems to
be on patrol.

2. And speaking of Percy ? where's the Head Girl and the Prefects ? Can you
imagine that Harry (through whom we `see' this magical world) would pay no
attention to them at all ?

3. Teacher Talk: When the Headmaster approaches, Harry quickly pretends to
be asleep. Do you think Professor Dumbledore knew he was listening in on the
conversation ? Was that the reason he cuts off Snape's insinuation that Lupin
helped Black get inside the castle or was it solely because he truly believes
Lupin didn't help ?

4. Snape taking over Lupin's class: What did you make of this and did it
give you a clue as to what was to come out ?

5. It wasn't till I was writing a version of book 6 myself that "teachers
taking over classes for others" became a problem to me ? what do you make of the
class schedule for Hogwarts' students ?

6. Quidditch: what did you make of the fact that several of the experienced
and older quidditch players didn't think of protecting Harry's glasses in the
storm and that Hermione comes up with the solution ? Or is this a detail that I
notice as a bespectacled citizen ?

7. Quidditch: we also have the first introduction of Cedric Diggory. What
? if any ? was your impression of him ?

8. Did you have an idea by this time what, exactly, Harry might be hearing
when dementors are near ?

Karlijn


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
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Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 10 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you
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drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Oct 21 02:35:45 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 02:35:45 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9ln1l+gn20@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9o8u1+646j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189680


> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> Chapter 9: Grim Defeat

> Questions:
> 
> 1. A school-wide sleep-over, mixed gender (Hermione sleeps close to Ron and
> Harry), and with 11 to 17 year olds ? Can you imagine this happening at your
> school ? both when you were young and/or for your kids nowadays - whichever
> applies ? Especially with little to no adult supervision ? only Percy seems to
> be on patrol.

Potioncat:
Afterall, this is Hogwarts. No supervision in the co-ed Houses either. Percy provides more supervision than most teachers would. But the closest RL situation I can think of, is our youth mission event. Boys and girls sleep in the same room for 5 nights---granted, adults are sleeping in the narrow space between the male side and female side of the room
> 
> 2. And speaking of Percy ? where's the Head Girl and the Prefects ? Can you
> imagine that Harry (through whom we `see' this magical world) would pay no
> attention to them at all ?
Potioncat:
Sometimes it bothers me that we didn't hear of a head girl at this time (wasn't it Penelope?) or that we don't find out who the prefects are in Ginny's 4th year. But JKR's cast of characters is pretty long as it is.
> 
> 3. Teacher Talk: When the Headmaster approaches, Harry quickly pretends to
> be asleep. Do you think Professor Dumbledore knew he was listening in on the
> conversation ? Was that the reason he cuts off Snape's insinuation that Lupin
> helped Black get inside the castle or was it solely because he truly believes
> Lupin didn't help ?
Potioncat:
I don't think there was anything to indicate that DD had any idea who was sleeping near that spot. On the other hand, you'd think Snape and DD would want to know where Harry was. Either way, I think DD cut off Snape because they had had the discussion before and DD was tired of it. He trusted Lupin.--enough said althoughI understand why Snape didn't trust Lupin.
> 
> 4. Snape taking over Lupin's class: What did you make of this and did it
> give you a clue as to what was to come out ?
Potioncat:
I thought it was more of the Snape/Lupin dynamic--and I loved how it all made sense by the end of the book.
> 
> 5. It wasn't till I was writing a version of book 6 myself that "teachers
> taking over classes for others" became a problem to me ? what do you make of the
> class schedule for Hogwarts' students ?
Potioncat:
I think Snape took over Lupin's class for his own purpose, not that it was common practice. I don't think we ever see it done at any other time, or by any other teacher. But you'd think, with calendars and astronomy tools that Lupin's schedule would have been set up and substitute teachers arranged. Why oh why does the full moon always take the werewolf by surprise?
> 
> 6. Quidditch: what did you make of the fact that several of the experienced
> and older quidditch players didn't think of protecting Harry's glasses in the
> storm and that Hermione comes up with the solution ? Or is this a detail that I
> notice as a bespectacled citizen ?
Potioncat:
You'd think that would have been developed years ago. Didn't James wear glasses--or is that movie contamination?
> 
> 7. Quidditch: we also have the first introduction of Cedric Diggory. What
> ? if any ? was your impression of him ?
Potioncat:
He seemed an honorable young man.
> 
> 8. Did you have an idea by this time what, exactly, Harry might be hearing
> when dementors are near ?
Potioncat:
Yes, I think so. But it makes me wonder what exactly others hear. I wonder what made it so bad for Arthur.

Thanks for the interesting questions. I'd like to add one

Snape knows DD trusts him in spite of his dark history. What  do you think about Snape's dismissal of DD's trust of Lupin?
>





From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Oct 21 04:50:09 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 00:50:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter
 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9o8u1+646j@eGroups.com>
References: <i9o8u1+646j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CBFC681.3020405@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189681

Potioncat:
> Afterall, this is Hogwarts. No supervision in the co-ed Houses either. Percy provides more supervision than most teachers would. But the closest RL situation I can think of, is our youth mission event. Boys and girls sleep in the same room for 5 nights---granted, adults are sleeping in the narrow space between the male side and female side of the room
>

Bart:
     I have stated before that there must be a reason why the birthrate 
is so low in the WW. Perhaps the part of the nervous system that 
controls magic is the same as the one which carries sexual desire.

     Bart




From kadede at skynet.be  Fri Oct 22 12:55:21 2010
From: kadede at skynet.be (Ka)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:55:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9o8u1+646j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9s1jp+fbru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189682





> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> Chapter 9: Grim Defeat

> Questions:
> 
> 1. SNIP

Potioncat:
Afterall, this is Hogwarts. No supervision in the co-ed Houses either. SNIP

Karlijn:
While reading the series I always felt the `no boys able to go up the girls stairs' defence of Hogwarts plenty protection against those teenage raging hormones, probably because my own hormones didn't start acting up until I was in my late teens. And in a clear demonstration of my age ? it is canon, isn't it , the stairs not allowing boys up to the girls dormitories ?


> 2. SNIP
Potioncat:
Sometimes it bothers me that we didn't hear of a head girl at this time (wasn't it Penelope?) or that we don't find out who the prefects are in Ginny's 4th year. But JKR's cast of characters is pretty long as it is.

Karlijn:
Of course these nameless students also provide all the fanfic-writers with plenty of scope to come up with their own OCs. 
> 
> 3. + 4. + 5.  SNIP

> 6. SNIP 
Potioncat:
You'd think that would have been developed years ago. Didn't James wear glasses--or is that movie contamination?

Karlijn:
Nope, in PS-chapter 12: the mirror of Erised, James is described as wearing glasses.

> 7.  + 8. SNIP 
Potioncat:
Thanks for the interesting questions. I'd like to add one
Snape knows DD trusts him in spite of his dark history. What do you think about Snape's dismissal of DD's trust of Lupin?

Karlijn:
Hadn't thought of that, good question ! To Snape, imho, Lupin (as well as Black, Pettigrew and both James and Harry Potter) could do nothing right.  Even in a complete AU where LV is not an issue, Snape would have carried around the teenage grudge he has against the marauders. Even DD's opinion on the subject cannot change his mind about that. It's the elephant-mindedness about him. 






From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Oct 23 11:34:11 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 11:34:11 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9o8u1+646j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9uh7j+jtt7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189683



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> > Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
> 
> > Questions:
> > 
> > 1. A school-wide sleep-over, mixed gender (Hermione sleeps close to Ron and
> > Harry), and with 11 to 17 year olds ? Can you imagine this happening at your
> > school ? both when you were young and/or for your kids nowadays - whichever
> > applies ? Especially with little to no adult supervision ? only Percy seems to
> > be on patrol.
> 
> Potioncat:
> Afterall, this is Hogwarts. No supervision in the co-ed Houses either.
 
<SNIP>
AM now - Well, Filch and Snape hunt students up on the Astronomy Tower, and in the rosebushes at the Yule Ball; I don't suppose they're all sneakily brewing Polyjuice Potion! I think Hogwarts is so large, and impossible to police entirely, that it has to be down to the students being responsible.

> > 
> > 2. And speaking of Percy ? where's the Head Girl and the Prefects ? Can you
> > imagine that Harry (through whom we `see' this magical world) would pay no
> > attention to them at all ?

AM now - Would that add anything to the story? I think JKR quite reasonably didn't have a scene of all the prefects and Penelope descending on Dumbledore. I know we want to see every moment of this world, but there's a gripping story to tell! 

> > 
> > 3. Teacher Talk: When the Headmaster approaches, Harry quickly pretends to
> > be asleep. Do you think Professor Dumbledore knew he was listening in on the
> > conversation ? Was that the reason he cuts off Snape's insinuation that Lupin
> > helped Black get inside the castle or was it solely because he truly believes
> > Lupin didn't help ?

AM - It sounded odd to me at the time, and it still sounds odd to me now. I'm still not decided what JKR's implying here. I have a sneaky suspicion she left little teasers in, that no one will ever truly know about.

> > 
> > 4. Snape taking over Lupin's class: What did you make of this and did it
> > give you a clue as to what was to come out ?
 
AM - Well, there was obviously something odd about Lupin - sickly, disappearing regularly,Snape's <loathing> - now, that implied, to me, something like a cyclical infectious disease. It was the first HP book I read, though, and I didn't twig to the werewolf before the reveal.
 
> > 5. It wasn't till I was writing a version of book 6 myself that "teachers
> > taking over classes for others" became a problem to me ? what do you make of the
> > class schedule for Hogwarts' students ?
> Potioncat:
> I think Snape took over Lupin's class for his own purpose, not that it was common practice. I don't think we ever see it done at any other time, or by any other teacher. But you'd think, with calendars and astronomy tools that Lupin's schedule would have been set up and substitute teachers arranged. Why oh why does the full moon always take the werewolf by surprise?

AM now - Why, indeed? The Wizarding world can construct a Lunascope, for heavens sake, not that Lupin could afford one, but surely someone kind would show him a Forget-Me-Not Charm?
Obviously there are substitute teachers, or wizarding folk Dumbledore knows who will kindly step in to take over classes when a teacher is, say, sent to Azkaban? But I agree with Potioncat - Snape was playing to his own agenda here. Wonder why Dumbledore let him? 

> > 
> > 6. Quidditch: what did you make of the fact that several of the experienced
> > and older quidditch players didn't think of protecting Harry's glasses in the
> > storm and that Hermione comes up with the solution ? Or is this a detail that I
> > notice as a bespectacled citizen ?

AM - I don't suppose Dumbledore has problems with his glasses in the rain; I think it's one of those times when no one thinks Harry might not know the charm - the disconnect between worlds. I'm not entirely sure if the wearing of glasses in the Wizarding world is not an affectation, anyways.

> > 
> > 7. Quidditch: we also have the first introduction of Cedric Diggory. What
> > ? if any ? was your impression of him ?

AM - He seemed a little too good to be true - I thought he might be a baddie in disguise, I seem to remember.

> > 
> > 8. Did you have an idea by this time what, exactly, Harry might be hearing
> > when dementors are near ?
> Potioncat:
> Yes, I think so. But it makes me wonder what exactly others hear. I wonder what made it so bad for Arthur.

AM now - Ah, so many stories waiting to be told. I guess I sort of suspected, but I thought it might have been a battle scene, torture, all sort of things. I think I was forgetting I was reading a purportedly childrens book by now.

> 
> Thanks for the interesting questions. I'd like to add one
> 
> Snape knows DD trusts him in spite of his dark history. What  do you think about Snape's dismissal of DD's trust of Lupin?
> >
>

AM - Sort of the crux of Snape's problem, isn't this? He's got no empathy. He can see what people do, he can understand some motivations, and then - nothing. It's the reason he's so believable as a spy, for me. If he weren't a spy, I suspect he'd study psychology or psychiatry on the side.

Thanks for the thought-provoking questions, both of you!





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Oct 23 17:55:38 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 23 Oct 2010 17:55:38 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/24/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1287856538.586.96576.m16@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189684

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sat Oct 23 23:26:52 2010
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 23:26:52 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9ln1l+gn20@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9vqvs+9nmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189685



 Questions:
1. A school-wide sleep-over, mixed gender (Hermione sleeps close to Ron and Harry), and with 11 to 17 year olds ? Can you imagine this happening at your school ? both when you were young and/or for your kids nowadays - whichever applies ? Especially with little to no adult supervision ? only Percy seems to be on patrol.

Marianne:

When I was in school sleeping in the same room wouldn't have been an option.  The boys in one end of the school the girls on the other end of the school.  Things are a lot more relaxed now days.  As a parent I wouldn't think anything about it.  Course there would have been plenty of supervision.

As for Hogwarts?  They kids have very little supervision anyway, why would a school-wide sleepover make much of a difference.  For HRH to sleep in the same area, seems only natural.  The other kids, boys girls, would probably gather together for friendship, maybe comfort and discuss the happenings of the day.  Besides Peeves is enough of supervision by himeself.


2. And speaking of Percy ? where's the Head Girl and the Prefects ? Can you imagine that Harry (through whom we `see' this magical world) would pay no sttention to them at all?

Marianne:

I was looking for a quote in the book and looked through this chapter.  Dumbledore left the Head Boy and Girl in charge and the prefects in guard of the entrences of the hall.  As for Percy.  Well he's Percy.  Wants to be in the know of everything and be able to report everything.

Harry might pay attention to the other prefects and the head boy and girl, but not Percy.  I don't think he has much respect for him
 
3. Teacher Talk: When the Headmaster approaches, Harry quickly pretends to be asleep. Do you think Professor Dumbledore knew he was listening in on the conversation ? Was that the reason he cuts off Snape's insinuation that Lupin helped Black get inside the castle or was it solely because he truly believes Lupin didn't help?

Marianne:

I doubt Dumbldore knew he was listening.  If he knew Harry was listening, the conversation wouldn't have taken place. I believe Dumbledore really believes Lupin didn't help.  He trusts Lupin.
 
4. Snape taking over Lupin's class: What did you make of this and did it give you a clue as to what was to come out?

Marianne:

Didn't think nothing of it.  If a teacher is ill, someone is going to take over a class temporarily.  Snape knows DADA, so why not have him teach for a while.
 
8. Did you have an idea by this time what, exactly, Harry might be hearing when dementors are near?

Marianne:

No.





From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sat Oct 23 23:46:30 2010
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 23:46:30 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9s1jp+fbru@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i9vs4m+n0i5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189686



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ka" <kadede at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> > Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
> 
> > Questions:
> > 
> > 1. SNIP
> 
> Potioncat:
> Afterall, this is Hogwarts. No supervision in the co-ed Houses either. SNIP
> 
> Karlijn:
> While reading the series I always felt the `no boys able to go up the girls stairs' defence of Hogwarts plenty protection against those teenage raging hormones, probably because my own hormones didn't start acting up until I was in my late teens. And in a clear demonstration of my age ? it is canon, isn't it , the stairs not allowing boys up to the girls dormitories ?

Marianne:
It was in Order of the Phoenix book, Umbridge's reign of terror, that Ron tried to go to the girls dorms to talk to Hermione that the stairs turn into a slide.  That was amusing.

I don't know why the boys dorms should be any different.  Hemione got into the boys dorms easy enough.  Why shouldn't the same rules apply to the boys dorms as the girls.  The girls would have the same thoughts/reasons to get into the boys' dorms.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Oct 24 17:15:27 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 24 Oct 2010 17:15:27 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/24/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1287940527.255.17692.m1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189688

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday October 24, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

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7 pm UK



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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 24 17:39:06 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:39:06 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9ln1l+gn20@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ia1qvq+omqf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189689

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
<snip admirably concise and accurate summary>

> 1. A school-wide sleep-over, mixed gender (Hermione sleeps close to Ron and Harry), and with 11 to 17 year olds ? Can you imagine this happening at your school ? both when you were young and/or for your kids nowadays - whichever applies ? Especially with little to no adult supervision ? only Percy seems to be on patrol.

Carol responds:
When I was young, maybe--though I never attended a boarding school and I'm sure that adults would have supervised. Now, no. Either JKR is keeping things G-rated or we're supposed to imagine that the kids are too afraid of the escaped "murderer" to think about anything else. But, also, I'm pretty sure that the teachers look in once in awhile and Percy can't be the only prefect present. (Prefects can assign punishments, including detentions.) Also, probably, they suspect that Dumbledore has means of magically watching them. At any rate, it never occurred to me that the kids would take advantage of the absence of adult supervision on this particular occasion. Hogwarts isn't the real world, after all.
> 
> 2. And speaking of Percy ? where's the Head Girl and the Prefects ? Can you imagine that Harry (through whom we `see' this magical world) would pay no attention to them at all?

Carol:
Harry's attention is strictly on his own concerns (Black is supposedly out to murder him after all), and he has never been observant. He probably doesn't know the name of the female prefect for Gryffindor, much less the identity of the others. Surely, Percy's Ravenclaw girlfriend, Penelope Clearwater, is there but she's probably concerned with the behavior and safety of the kids in her own class. (By the way, we seldom see the other prefects, primarily because Harry isn't aware of them, but I think we can safely imagine that they're quietly doing their jobs in the background. If they weren't taking their jobs seriously, the Great Hall would be a scene of pandemonium.
> 
> 3. Teacher Talk: When the Headmaster approaches, Harry quickly pretends to be asleep. Do you think Professor Dumbledore knew he was listening in on the conversation? Was that the reason he cuts off Snape's insinuation that Lupin helped Black get inside the castle or was it solely because he truly believes Lupin didn't help?

Carol:
I think he suspects that Harry is awake and takes no chances. He probably doesn't want Harry to know that there's any connection between Black and Lupin, any more than he wants Harry to suspect that Lupin is a werewolf. I don't think, however, that Dumbledore can read the mind of someone who isn't looking at him or even perform Legilimency undetected (or that he does so every time he converses with someone). I think he reserves it for important occasions (a mere glimpse, occasionally, but a thorough investigation of someone's mind only when, for example, he's interrogating Kreacher in OoP. I can't imagine DD intruding in people's minds the way LV does with the old wandmaker whose name escapes me. Harry would know it if he did so.) Anyway, DD knows Harry well enough to suspect that he's awake and listening, which is why, IMO, he cuts Snape off.
> 
> 4. Snape taking over Lupin's class: What did you make of this and did it give you a clue as to what was to come out?

Carol:
I had no problem with Snape taking over Lupin's class. After all, he's the most logical substitute. I didn't know why he was skipping ahead to werewolves, however. On a first reading, I probably thought it was just contempt for Lupin's teaching methods (as it appears to be). I didn't connect it with Lupin's potion at all.
> 
> 5. It wasn't till I was writing a version of book 6 myself that "teachers taking over classes for others" became a problem to me ? what do you make of the class schedule for Hogwarts' students?

Carol responds:
Teachers always have free periods in real life, and, coincidentally, Snape's free period coincides with Lupin's Gryffindor DADA class for Harry's year in both CoS and PoA. I think that the teachers' schedules fit JKR's convenience and she hasn't really thought them out. For example, Gryffindor in Harry's year has some classes alone (e.g., DADA), some with Hufflepuff (Herbology), two with Slytherin (Potions and COMC), and none with Ravenclaw, but Ginny has at least one class with Luna Lovegood, a Ravenclaw, and it would make sense to mix them up. Harry, however, never has classes with Ravenclaws until NEWT level in HBP and consequently, the only Ravenclaws he knows are Quidditch players. Even more oddly, Umbridge in OoP seems to have free periods that oddly coincide with Harry's schedule since most of her class observations involve fifth-year Gryffindors (Snape, Hagrid, McGonagall, and Trelawney). Okay, she can't have that many free periods, so she must be asking someone to substitute for her but we don't know it since Harry never has one of the substitutes. Possibly, Umbridge is deliberately selecting classes with Harry in them, but probably it's just that JKR wants him to witness those particular evaluations. Call it poetic license, I suppose. It certainly doesn't make sense from a realistic standpoint. Maybe she uses a Time Turner since they haven't yet been destroyed.(?)
> 
> 6. Quidditch: what did you make of the fact that several of the experienced and older quidditch players didn't think of protecting Harry's glasses in the storm and that Hermione comes up with the solution ? Or is this a detail that I notice as a bespectacled citizen?

Carol:
If they didn't wear glasses themselves, they probably wouldn't have thought of it. But, of course, know-it-all Hermione has a spell for every occasion. She doesn't invent her own spells, but she does seem to think of unusual applications for the standard spells. I think it's perfectly in character that she, with her concern for Harry, would be the one to come up with this spell.
> 
> 7. Quidditch: we also have the first introduction of Cedric Diggory. What ? if any ? was your impression of him?

Carol:
I liked him from the start and was glad to see a gentlemanly Quidditch player (good sportsmanship and Quidditch don't normally go together). I also liked having a handsome, popular Hufflepuff (though I don't think we see those traits until GoF). I thought it was a shame, though, that he won the game by accident. Funny how JKR can't let Harry lose a Quidditch match through superior game play. It always has to be through circumstances beyond his control. If the Yankees can lose the playoffs (grumble, grumble), Gryffindor can lose a Quidditch match even when their star Seeker is playing. Let's have a little realism here.
> 
> 8. Did you have an idea by this time what, exactly, Harry might be hearing when dementors are near?
>
Carol:
I don't remember. Hasn't he figured out by this point that it's his mother screaming?

Carol, apologizing for not having reread the chapter before responding




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 24 17:47:01 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:47:01 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9o8u1+646j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ia1rel+bmg4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189690

Potioncat wrote:
<snip>
> I don't think there was anything to indicate that DD had any idea who was sleeping near that spot. On the other hand, you'd think Snape and DD would want to know where Harry was. Either way, I think DD cut off Snape because they had had the discussion before and DD was tired of it. He trusted Lupin.--enough said althoughI understand why Snape didn't trust Lupin. <snip>

Carol responds:
You could be right. At any rate, cutting off a character who's about to reveal important information is one of JKR's favorite devices. She also employs the opposite tactic, having Harry decide, for whatever reason, not to ask a question or confide in someone (for example, not mentioning the "Grim" to Lupin).

Carol, who thinks it would be fun to speculate on how the suppressed information might have changed the plot in each case





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Oct 24 22:20:51 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 22:20:51 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <ia1rel+bmg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ia2bg3+g9f0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189691

>
Carol responds:
You could be right. At any rate, cutting off a character who's about to reveal important information is one of JKR's favorite devices. She also employs the opposite tactic, having Harry decide, for whatever reason, not to ask a question or confide in someone (for example, not mentioning the "Grim" to Lupin).

Carol, who thinks it would be fun to speculate on how the suppressed information might have changed the plot in each case


Potioncat:
I was really struck in this read by how close Harry came to mentioning the dog--that he thought might be a grim--to Lupin. And I too wondered how it would have changed things. I think Lupin would have looked grave and Harry would have quickly changed the subject, more convinced than ever that it was a Grim. 

Who thinks  Lupin would have kept the information to himself--like he did about the Marauders' Map and who thinks he would have taken some action? Who thinks he might have told DD about the Marauders' Animagus forms?




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 24 23:04:33 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 23:04:33 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <ia2bg3+g9f0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ia2e21+82rt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189692

> 
> Potioncat:
> I was really struck in this read by how close Harry came to mentioning the dog--that he thought might be a grim--to Lupin. And I too wondered how it would have changed things. I think Lupin would have looked grave and Harry would have quickly changed the subject, more convinced than ever that it was a Grim. 
> 
> Who thinks  Lupin would have kept the information to himself--like he did about the Marauders' Map and who thinks he would have taken some action? Who thinks he might have told DD about the Marauders' Animagus forms?
>

Alla:

Well, I guess I am giving Lupin's benefit of the doubt but knowing that Harry saw Grim? I sure hope he would have told Dumbledore then about their Marauders' forms. On the other hand, feeling even less than usual Dumbledore's love lately if such thing possible, what if he truly thinks not very high of Dumbledore's ability to do fair investigation? On one hand it is clear in the next books that unlike Sirius Lupin is unwilling to question anything done or said by Dumbledore, on the other hand to me this behavior of his and thinking that if he will tell Dumbledore, he may not give Sirius' fair chance to even explain himself is not mutually exclusive.

JMO.




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Oct 25 01:27:58 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 01:27:58 -0000
Subject: a couple of details and Cedric Diggory
Message-ID: <ia2meu+anl2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189693

Carol asked me in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189643>:

<< If he later "disrespects" Sirius (and I'm not sure what you have in mind here), it may be because Sirius wasn't a true Black in that he was Sorted into Gryffindor. Can you cite the passage you have in mind to help us out here? >>

I recall noticing that Draco disrespected Sirius, but I don't remember what Draco was saying or doing when I noticed it. I might get back to you if I find it in a re-read.

Pippin wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189651>:

<< Sounds like JKR took some of her ideal qualities and divided them among the Houses: Ravenclaws are smart, Hufflepuffs are kind, and Slytherins have a strong sense of who they are. >>

Are Hufflepuffs kind? For that matter, do Slytherins really have a strong sense of who they are? Draco, who thought he was a killer, but found out otherwise. And Regulus, who thought he was a disciple of the Dark Lord until he found it necessary to give his own life for revenge on the Dark Lord.

Karlijn discussed PoA Chapter 9 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189679> and asked:

<< 7. Quidditch: we also have the first introduction of Cedric Diggory. What ? if any ? was your impression of him ? >>

To which, Carol replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189689>:

<< I liked him from the start and was glad to see a gentlemanly Quidditch player (good sportsmanship and Quidditch don't normally go together). I also liked having a handsome, popular Hufflepuff (though I don't think we see those traits until GoF). I thought it was a shame, though, that [Cedric] won the game by accident. Funny how JKR can't let Harry lose a Quidditch match through superior game play. It always has to be through circumstances beyond his control. If the Yankees can lose the playoffs (grumble, grumble), Gryffindor can lose a Quidditch match even when their star Seeker is playing. Let's have a little realism here. >>

In this case, Harry had to lose by freak accident, because if he'd lost in a normal way, Cedric wouldn't have had the opportunity to display his extreme good sportsmanship by wanting a do-over. Should I call it excessive good sportsmanship, considering there is nothing in the rules of Quidditch to allow do-overs?

Bart wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189681>:

<< I have stated before that there must be a reason why the birthrate is so low in the WW. Perhaps the part of the nervous system that controls magic is the same as the one which carries sexual desire. >>

Or because contraceptive charms are simple, easy, and well-known.





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Oct 25 20:32:32 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:32:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9uh7j+jtt7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ia4ph0+ev32@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189694

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AmanitaMuscaria" <amanitamuscaria1 at ...> wrote:
 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> > > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> > > Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
 
> > > Questions:

> > > 5. It wasn't till I was writing a version of book 6 myself that "teachers
> > > taking over classes for others" became a problem to me ? what do you make of the
> > > class schedule for Hogwarts' students ?
> > Potioncat:
> > I think Snape took over Lupin's class for his own purpose, not that it was common practice. I don't think we ever see it done at any other time, or by any other teacher. But you'd think, with calendars and astronomy tools that Lupin's schedule would have been set up and substitute teachers arranged. Why oh why does the full moon always take the werewolf by surprise?

Geoff:
I don't read this the same way as you do. Speaking as a former teacher, it was
normal practice to have a "cover rota" by which absences by staff could be 
handled by colleagues. The usefulness of this was that we knew that if a staff
member needed to be covered, for a scheduled absence or for illness, we might
be called in for certain lessons; outside this rota, if we had non-teaching time, it was
protected for us to deal with duties other than actual teaching.

We knew that the Hogwarts staff knew about Lupin and, hence that he would be 
missing on occasions and on this occasion, Snape was detailed to cover the class.

Harry was surprised to find Snape there because (1) he didn't know about Lupin's
condition and (2) probably had never taken much notice if a staff member was
away from a lesson and covered by someone else. The minor confrontation
between them was a side issue triggered by Harry's somewhat aggressive
questioning of Snape. I don't think anyone in authority was taken by surprise;
only Harry.




From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Oct 25 22:35:49 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:35:49 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <ia4ph0+ev32@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ia50o5+qb6r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189695



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AmanitaMuscaria" <amanitamuscaria1@> wrote:
>  
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> > > > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> > > > Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
>  
> > > > Questions:
> 
> > > > 5. It wasn't till I was writing a version of book 6 myself that "teachers
> > > > taking over classes for others" became a problem to me ? what do you make of the
> > > > class schedule for Hogwarts' students ?
> > > Potioncat:
> > > I think Snape took over Lupin's class for his own purpose, not that it was common practice. I don't think we ever see it done at any other time, or by any other teacher. But you'd think, with calendars and astronomy tools that Lupin's schedule would have been set up and substitute teachers arranged. Why oh why does the full moon always take the werewolf by surprise?
> 
> Geoff:
> I don't read this the same way as you do. Speaking as a former teacher, it was
> normal practice to have a "cover rota" by which absences by staff could be 
> handled by colleagues. The usefulness of this was that we knew that if a staff
> member needed to be covered, for a scheduled absence or for illness, we might
> be called in for certain lessons; outside this rota, if we had non-teaching time, it was
> protected for us to deal with duties other than actual teaching.
> 
> We knew that the Hogwarts staff knew about Lupin and, hence that he would be 
> missing on occasions and on this occasion, Snape was detailed to cover the class.
> 
> Harry was surprised to find Snape there because (1) he didn't know about Lupin's
> condition and (2) probably had never taken much notice if a staff member was
> away from a lesson and covered by someone else. The minor confrontation
> between them was a side issue triggered by Harry's somewhat aggressive
> questioning of Snape. I don't think anyone in authority was taken by surprise;
> only Harry.
>

AM now - You might be right - Harry is remarkably unobservant!
But Snape certainly takes full advantage to rubbish Lupin's teaching, complain about Lupin not leaving notes, and to jump to a lesson obviously past where the class has gotten.
Also, Lupin does get caught out later, having not taken his potion, and turning into the werewolf, so he can't be that good at keeping track of his schedule.
All in all, I suspect Dumbledore subscribes to a 'Summerhill' style of schooling.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Oct 27 00:09:23 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:09:23 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9ln1l+gn20@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ia7qjj+lpri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189696


> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. A school-wide sleep-over, mixed gender (Hermione sleeps close to Ron and
> Harry), and with 11 to 17 year olds ? Can you imagine this happening at your
> school ? both when you were young and/or for your kids nowadays - whichever
> applies ? Especially with little to no adult supervision ? only Percy seems to
> be on patrol.

Pippin:
Well, it's not really a sleepover, more of an emergency shelter. 

Besides,much as we might like to know, the book is Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, not Coming of Age in the WW.  Harry's adventures haven't got much to do with sex or romance at the moment, so the story doesn't deal with them. But the prefects are standing guard at the entrances (looking inward, since the doors are closed and locked)  and the hall is being patrolled by ghosts, so the students are not  unchaperoned. And I expect ghosts can see in the dark, so once the candles are out, they have the advantage. Of course sleeping bags conjured by the Elder Wand might have other properties than just being soft and squishy :)

As we know, students do find plenty of ways to slip off together in private.

The students aren't segregated in the hospital wing either. And nobody bats an eye at Hermione going off with Ron and Harry all hours of the day and night. It dawns on me that JKR is using the same technique on her audience that the Ministry uses when it has a issue it would rather avoid. Make few highly visible and largely symbolic gestures towards addressing the problem and unless they have reason to know better, people will be satisfied that Everything is Under Control. Whether it actually is or not is left to the interested reader to decide -- Harry is so oblivious that half the sixth years could be dropping out to have babies and he wouldn't notice unless it was one of his friends.

> 
> 2. And speaking of Percy ? where's the Head Girl and the Prefects ? Can you
> imagine that Harry (through whom we `see' this magical world) would pay no
> attention to them at all ?

Pippin:
 I think we see so little of the Head Girl because JKR knew all along that Hermione wasn't going to be one, and didn't want to create  expectations for it.

> 
> 3. Teacher Talk: When the Headmaster approaches, Harry quickly pretends to
> be asleep. Do you think Professor Dumbledore knew he was listening in on the
> conversation ? Was that the reason he cuts off Snape's insinuation that Lupin
> helped Black get inside the castle or was it solely because he truly believes
> Lupin didn't help ?
> 

Pippin:
Whether Harry is listening in or not, Percy is, and he's not supposed to know about Lupin either. If Snape had found new any evidence to support his theory, he'd  mention it. But he's just speculating, and Dumbledore has heard it before.

> 4. Snape taking over Lupin's class: What did you make of this and did it
> give you a clue as to what was to come out ?
Pippin:
I missed the all the hints pointing to the werewolf and was just as surprised as Harry when it all came out.

> 
> 5. It wasn't till I was writing a version of book 6 myself that "teachers
> taking over classes for others" became a problem to me ? what do you make of the
> class schedule for Hogwarts' students ?

Pippin:
JKR decided that she needed twelve subjects, seven years,  and 40 students in Harry's year in order to tell her tale, and didn't try to make it work logistically. 

> 
> 6. Quidditch: what did you make of the fact that several of the experienced
> and older quidditch players didn't think of protecting Harry's glasses in the
> storm and that Hermione comes up with the solution ? Or is this a detail that I
> notice as a bespectacled citizen ?

Pippin:
None of them wear glasses, AFAIK, so they didn't think of it.

> 
Potioncat's question:
Snape knows DD trusts him in spite of his dark history. What do you think about
Snape's dismissal of DD's trust of Lupin?

Pippin:
Snape confessed his dark history to Dumbledore. Lupin, however, has never admitted that he did anything unworthy of Dumbledore's trust, and Snape does not believe it. Snape is always accusing someone of being Sirius's accomplice. It's as if he doesn't want to accept that Sirius (or James) could best him acting alone.

 We can see from Spinner's End that Snape considers himself  as clever as any two purebloods put together. 

Pippin






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Oct 28 01:42:39 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:42:39 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <ia4ph0+ev32@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iaakef+nr62@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189697

>
Geoff:
> I don't read this the same way as you do. Speaking as a former teacher, it was
> normal practice to have a "cover rota" by which absences by staff could be 
> handled by colleagues. The usefulness of this was that we knew that if a staff
> member needed to be covered, for a scheduled absence or for illness, we might
> be called in for certain lessons; outside this rota, if we had non-teaching time, it was
> protected for us to deal with duties other than actual teaching.


Potioncat:
That does change my perception of what was going on. But let me make sure I understand, Snape would probably cover that particular class on the day(s) Lupin was out. Another teacher might cover the morning class and so on? 

I was going on my (US) experience. It would be very unusual for one teacher to cover for another for a day or several days. I suppose it's not unheard of if a sub couldn't be found. Also, we never see any other Hogwarts teacher cover for another. Come to think of it, the only time we've seen a sub is for Hagrid the several times he's been absent. I think DADA classes are generally cancelled when the DADA teacher goes belly up.

I still think Snape's intention was to give the Trio(Hermione) enough information to figure out Lupin's condition. Although it's possible that he was just annoyed with having to accommodate Lupin and was trying to out him to anyone who could catch on




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Oct 28 01:58:10 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:58:10 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <i9uh7j+jtt7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iaalbi+qp5c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189698

, "AmanitaMuscaria"  wrote:
>
> AM - Sort of the crux of Snape's problem, isn't this? He's got no empathy. He can see what people do, he can understand some motivations, and then - nothing. It's the reason he's so believable as a spy, for me. If he weren't a spy, I suspect he'd study psychology or psychiatry on the side.
> 


Potioncat:
No empathy. I think you're absolutely correct on that mark.

I fully understand though why Snape doesn't trust Lupin. Snape (and even Lupin) thinks that Black betrayed Lily and killed Peter. He knows that young Lupin couldn't or didn't stand up to young Black. So even if he thinks Lupin would be loyal to DD rather than to Black--Snape wouldn't think Lupin was strong enough to resist Black. 

Looking back at PoA now, I realize that Snape respects DD but doesn't  fully agree with him. Clearly Snape isn't happy to have his objections overruled and he may feel that in Lupin's case, DD has made an error of judgment.




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Oct 28 06:42:38 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:42:38 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <iaakef+nr62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iab60u+hl0n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189699



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> >
> Geoff:
> > I don't read this the same way as you do. Speaking as a former teacher, it was
> > normal practice to have a "cover rota" by which absences by staff could be 
> > handled by colleagues. The usefulness of this was that we knew that if a staff
> > member needed to be covered, for a scheduled absence or for illness, we might
> > be called in for certain lessons; outside this rota, if we had non-teaching time, it was
> > protected for us to deal with duties other than actual teaching.
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> That does change my perception of what was going on. But let me make sure I understand, Snape would probably cover that particular class on the day(s) Lupin was out. Another teacher might cover the morning class and so on? 
> 
> I was going on my (US) experience. It would be very unusual for one teacher to cover for another for a day or several days. I suppose it's not unheard of if a sub couldn't be found. Also, we never see any other Hogwarts teacher cover for another. Come to think of it, the only time we've seen a sub is for Hagrid the several times he's been absent. I think DADA classes are generally cancelled when the DADA teacher goes belly up.

Geoff:
The "cover rota:" situation would cover one lesson at a time. In many
UK schools, the day is either divided into seven or eight periods (usually 
40 minutes or so), some of which might be double periods because of 
practical requirements.

For example, in my last few years of teaching, most of my Maths  
lessons were single periods whereas all my Computer Studies lessons 
were double periods.

If cover was drawn from the school staff, a teacher's lessons would be 
covered by several different staff members who had a free period. If 
there was a situation where a staff member was going to be away for 
some time - maybe illness or a training course - then a "supply
teacher" might be brought in from outside. When I first moved from
London to the West Country, I did supply teaching for a couple of 
years in the local Middle School.

In the Hogwarts situation , I suspect all the cover would come from 
existing staff.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Oct 29 15:22:33 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:22:33 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 9: Grim Defeat
In-Reply-To: <iaalbi+qp5c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iaeorp+s57s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189700

> 
> Potioncat:
> No empathy. I think you're absolutely correct on that mark.
> 
> I fully understand though why Snape doesn't trust Lupin. Snape (and even Lupin) thinks that Black betrayed Lily and killed Peter. He knows that young Lupin couldn't or didn't stand up to young Black. So even if he thinks Lupin would be loyal to DD rather than to Black--Snape wouldn't think Lupin was strong enough to resist Black. 
> 
> Looking back at PoA now, I realize that Snape respects DD but doesn't  fully agree with him. Clearly Snape isn't happy to have his objections overruled and he may feel that in Lupin's case, DD has made an error of judgment.


Pippin:
Hmmm...being too trusting is part of the "legend" that Dumbledore is building. When the time comes, it must be credible that Snape has fooled him all these years. Dumbledore must not only conspicuously trust people that very few wizards would trust, he has to let people get away with things that he might otherwise be expected to stop them from doing.

That might be part of the reason that Dumbledore refuses to consider, at least out loud, the possibility that someone inside the castle is helping Sirius. Not that I think he has any clue of what's really going on. If anyone had suggested to me at this point that Sirius was  getting help from Hermione's cat, I would not have believed it, and I was expecting the answer to be bizarre.  

Snape, as I said, does not have any new evidence, and is just suspecting Lupin on general principles. I don't think this shows his lack of empathy. Snape was condemned on the basis of his friends, and to him that is just the way the world works. To me, if Snape lacks something, it's compassion. He knows how awful it feels to be hated for something that's not your fault -- he just doesn't think it's his job to do something about it. 

But this is Snape we are talking about. He makes a theatrical show of not wanting to be overheard, but if he really didn't want anyone to hear him, he has better ways of arranging it than pretending his lips aren't moving. So I think Snape does mean to be overheard by Percy, who is right up there with Hermione in the know-it-all department, and is another person whom Snape might expect to guess Lupin's secret, given a few hints. 

Pippin








From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Oct 30 17:55:32 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 30 Oct 2010 17:55:32 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/31/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1288461332.25.58580.m7@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189701

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Oct 31 17:01:13 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 31 Oct 2010 17:01:13 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 10/31/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1288544473.548.13666.m17@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189702

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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Weekly Chat
Sunday October 31, 2010
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(This event repeats every week.)
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Notes:
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