From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Sep  2 00:07:49 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 00:07:49 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <i4vesc+ao73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i5mpsl+2of8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189547


Sherry:
5. Did you think Trelawney was a true seer or a hoax? Did you expect
any of her predictions to come true, even the simple ones? Do you think any of them did come true later? Just the predictions in this first lesson.

Pippin:
I thought she was a hoax. Now I see  her problem as a lack of confidence. Since she suppresses any predictions that seem to be unlikely, she  predicts only things that could have been predicted by other means. This invites clever skeptics like Hermione and Dumbledore to think that she's faking, but IMO, she's not actually clever enough to do that. 

I did expect her predictions to come true. I have no trouble believing that anyone who sees a Grim will die -- just like everyone who doesn't see one. <veg>

Sherry:
> 9. How did you like Hagrid's first lesson? Do you think he had
> potential to be a good teacher? Would you have enjoyed this first class?

It certainly was an interesting class -- but much more enjoyable to read about than it would have been to experience. 

Hagrid trained the thestrals and did an amazing job with Grawp, so there's no doubt in my mind that he has potential as a teacher. That said, I think I'd have been terrified by this first class. It seems to me that Hagrid's problem isn't lack of skill but a misplaced focus. He's more invested in showing off his beloved creatures (why else bring in six at once!) than in making sure his pupils learn the skills to deal with them. 

Binns, Lockhart and Trelawney  share a similar but more egotistical fault: they're all more interested in showing off what they know (or pretend to know) than in actually teaching. 

Lupin's classes show us how a dangerous situation  could have been avoided. Imagine the chaos if his class had been confronted with six boggarts at once! 

> 
> 11. What are your thoughts on Draco's actions in this lesson? Should
> he have listened more to Hagrid's instructions? Does he have any blame in the fact that he was injured? Should 13-year-olds be taught to interact with dangerous creatures?

Pippin:
There's no doubt Draco was defiant and inattentive. But that's hardly unusual behavior for a thirteen year old. It's Harry's default mode in Potions, but despite that he never gets hurt, IIRC. 

We have to give Snape some credit for that IMO, though I'm sure Harry would have been happier to be ignored rather than have Snape laying into him on every mistake. Of course even that doesn't work with Neville. My guess is that for all the errors Neville makes in following directions,  it's  accidental magic caused by Neville's nervousness   which makes all those cauldrons explode.

Anyway, as Snape's example shows, the time to discipline a student for being inattentive is *before* he has an accident. 

Students in potions, transfiguration, DADA and CoMC are explicitly warned that these are dangerous subjects. That's fully a third of the usual twelve courses, not to mention Quidditch. Witches and wizards, IWO, are expected to cope.  Until the rest of the WW is willing to commit to creating a society where young wizards have no need for such skills until later in life, young wizards will have no choice but to study them.

> 
> 12. Did you agree that Hagrid should be disciplined for this lesson or that Buckbeak should be executed over what happened to Malfoy? Did you guess the significance Buckbeak's execution would play later in the book?

Pippin:
I usually read the books too quickly on my first go to spend much time speculating over what was going to happen. But I don't remember thinking that Hagrid should be disciplined or that Buckbeak should have been executed. Now that I think of it, it's a sort of catch-22 -- if Buckbeak was behaving like a normal hippogriff, then Hagrid should have  anticipated the problem and intervened sooner. That's what Lupin or Snape would have done. 


Sherry:
> 13. And one for fun. Because I laughed a lot in this chapter, did you have a favorite funny line in this chapter?

Pippin:
I love the following exchange:

"I think Divination seems very woolly," she said, searching for her page. "A lot of guesswork, if you ask me."
"There was nothing woolly about the Grim in that cup!" said Ron hotly.
"You didn't seem quite so confident when you were telling Harry it was a sheep," said Hermione coolly.


Pippin, very glad Yahoo!mort seems to have restored HPFGU to its un-madeover state. And thanks, Sherry, for all the questions. I wish I had more to add on the rest of them.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  2 16:05:41 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 16:05:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <i5mpsl+2of8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i5oi0l+itd2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189548

Pippin:
 
> Students in potions, transfiguration, DADA and CoMC are explicitly warned that these are dangerous subjects. That's fully a third of the usual twelve courses, not to mention Quidditch. Witches and wizards, IWO, are expected to cope.  Until the rest of the WW is willing to commit to creating a society where young wizards have no need for such skills until later in life, young wizards will have no choice but to study them.


Annemehr:

Interesting comment.  And I'm not feeling adversarial, but exploratory.  So, in that frame of mind:

How much do you think would need to change in wizard society so that young wizards would have no need of those skills though they may when they are older?  The reasons vary for teaching the classes you cite ~ would the societal changes you envision be varied as well?  Or are you thinking you would just make everything safer in general for teenagers?

Or does this have something to do with getting rid of LV and the DEs?

If you're going to need those skills at all, may you not as well learn them in school while you are there?  As you point out using the examples of Lupin and Snape, the lessons themselves needn't be all that dangerous.

Annemehr





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep  2 22:35:01 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 22:35:01 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <i5oi0l+itd2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i5p8qm+6jtu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189549

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote: 
Pippin:
  
> > Students in potions, transfiguration, DADA and CoMC are explicitly warned that these are dangerous subjects. That's fully a third of the usual twelve courses, not to mention Quidditch. Witches and wizards, IWO, are expected to cope.  Until the rest of the WW is willing to commit to creating a society where young wizards have no need for such skills until later in life, young wizards will have no choice but to study them.
 
Annemehr:
 
> Interesting comment.  And I'm not feeling adversarial, but exploratory.  So, in that frame of mind: How much do you think would need to change in wizard society so that young wizards would have no need of those skills though they may when they are older?  

<snip>

> If you're going to need those skills at all, may you not as well learn them in school while you are there?  As you point out using the examples of Lupin and Snape, the lessons themselves needn't be all that dangerous.

Geoff:
Of the group you quote, the only one I see as forced on the curriculum 
because of the "political" situation is DADA. I think the skills for the others 
would certainly be of value. Perhaps CoMC might be a minority option in 
their choices but the others are certainly worthy of retention.




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  3 04:12:39 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:12:39 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <i5mpsl+2of8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i5psjn+gbgo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189550

Pippin wrote: 
[big snip]
> Binns, Lockhart and Trelawney  share a similar but more egotistical fault: they're all more interested in showing off what they know (or pretend to know) than in actually teaching. 
[big snip]

Joey:

I certainly agree with your point in the case of Lockhart and Trelawney but Binns seems to be a different type. 

I don't think he wanted to show off or pretend to know. In fact, I wonder if he *wanted* to do anything at all. :-) He seems to be totatlly amazed, as per Harry at least, to have many students listening to him. The only interaction he had with the students, at least with Harry's batch, was when the CoS mystery gripped Hogwarts. Even during that discussion, he seems to be more concerned about sticking to facts stated in history books than anything else. 

He does not mean to teach though, I agree. He doesn't seem to have any goal at all, actually. :-) He is *quite* poor in networking with people and he seems to me as a person who would do better in a research environment working as an absolutely solitary researcher. :-)

Cheers,
~Joey :-)





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Sep  4 17:55:52 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 4 Sep 2010 17:55:52 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/5/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1283622952.15.65222.m2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189551

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Sep  5 17:06:23 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Sep 2010 17:06:23 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/5/2010, 1:00 pm 
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No: HPFGUIDX 189552

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  5 17:13:47 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 17:13:47 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron
In-Reply-To: <i2oojc+m214@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i60j4b+2jn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189553

<snip>
> > 2. Why does Crookshanks attack Scabbers on sight? Does he sense Scabbers is evil or just that he is not a rat?
> 
> AM - I thought it was the cat-rat animosity, and didn't think anything of it. It wasn't until much later in the book that I realised Crookshanks wasn't just a cat.
> > 
> > 3. Is the conflict between Scabbers and Crookshanks meant to reflect the conflict between Ron and Hermione?
> 
> AM - Never thought of it like that. I guess, as we're talking strong opposites, it works well. <snip>

Carol responds belatedly:

There's also a little side motif going on here. Hagrid says in this same book (I forget the exact context), "People can be a bit stupid abou' their pets."  Although the comment is intended to reflect on either Ron or Hermione and the whole Scabbers/Crookshanks conflict between the two kids, it also applies to Hagrid in relation to almost every pet he's ever had (except possibly Fang). "A bit stupid" falls short of the mark in relation to Norbert, Fluffy, Aragog, and particularly, with regard to PoA, Buckbeak (as well as to future pets such as the Blast-Ended Skrewts).

I think that JKR uses pets to reveal character traits. Hagrid is absurdly sentimental about his dangerous pets. Possibly, his fanatical attachment to "interestin'" creatures (which extends to his seemingly monstrous and untameable half-brother, Grawp) results from his loneliness and his sense of being different from everyone else. Harry, in contrast, is fond of Hedwig but treats her with respect as well as affection, but he never becomes fanatical about her. Ron and Hermione fall somewhere in between, allowing the conflict between their pets to become a source of conflict between themselves and (possibly because of their mutual insecurity and discomfort with their budding attraction to each other) endangering their friendship in the process. So, yes, this conflict serves as a red herring in the plot, distracting us from the possibility that both Crookshanks and Scabbers are not quite what they seem, but it has thematic implications, too, or, rather, it serves as a means of revealing character.

Setting aside PoA and looking at the series as a whole, we can look at other characters and their pets--say, Dumbledore and Fawkes on the one hand and Voldemort and Nagini on the other--and ask what their pets and the strength of their attachment to those pets reveal about them. The same goes for the Squibs, Mrs. Figg and Filch, and their cats and even the Muggle, Marge Dursley, with her dogs. (In a sense, her fanatical devotion to her dogs parallels Hagrid's to his interestin' creatures, just as Voldemort's relationship to Nagini parallels Dumbledore's to Fawkes.)

Carol, who doesn't have time to finish her thoughts or revise this post for coherence







From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  9 01:58:05 2010
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (poohmeg20)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 01:58:05 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 7:  The Boggart in the Wardrobe
Message-ID: <i69evd+ssdg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189554

This message is a Special Notice for all members of
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CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Chapter 7: The Boggart in the Wardrobe

Summary:
Malfoy returns to class after his previous injury and takes full advantage of
the situation by avoiding work in Potions class. In Defense Against the Dark
Arts, Lupin shows everyone how to conjure and defeat their boggart.

Questions:

1. What does Hermione's punishment for helping Neville say about Snape?

2. What did you think Lupin's boggart was the first time you read the chapter?

3. What did you think Malfoy meant by his comment about how Harry should want
revenge on Sirius Black the first time you read the chapter?

4. What did you think Hermione's boggart would have been?

5. Did you think that boggarts would play a significant role in the rest of the
story?

Megan

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at
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Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 8 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you
would like to volunteer to lead a Prisoner of Azkaban chapter discussion, please
drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).






From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  9 07:19:58 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 07:19:58 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 7:  The Boggart in the Wardrobe
In-Reply-To: <i69evd+ssdg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6a1qu+hprr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189555

Megan wrote:
> Questions:
 
> 1. What does Hermione's punishment for helping Neville say about Snape?

Joey:

Before reading DH, I thought he was just being nasty to a Gryffindor. Now, I think maybe, just maybe, he was trying to make Neville independent (in his own horrible way :-)).
 
> 2. What did you think Lupin's boggart was the first time you read the chapter?

Joey:

I was imagining something like the dome of a bed lamp, in silver colour.
 
> 3. What did you think Malfoy meant by his comment about how Harry should want revenge on Sirius Black the first time you read the chapter?

Joey:

I wondered why he said "revenge" and then thought he was probably only just saying that Harry should get back at Sirius for having supported the "Dark Lord" and for having trying to get Harry.
 
> 4. What did you think Hermione's boggart would have been?

Joey:

I had never considered Hermione as a person who had significant fears in her heart. Only when I saw the way she reacted to her exam results in HBP, I agreed with Ron's guess about her boggart.
 
> 5. Did you think that boggarts would play a significant role in the rest of the story?

Joey:

I thought so, for they had been given such a significant introduction.

Thanks for the summary and questions! :-)




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Sep 11 17:55:53 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 Sep 2010 17:55:53 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/12/2010, 1:00 pm 
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No: HPFGUIDX 189556

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 11 23:21:29 2010
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 23:21:29 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion PoA 6, and a few other posts
Message-ID: <i6h2tp+1ph1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189557

Mike Crudele wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189535>:

<< Speaking of Lupin, what the heck had he been doing beforehand that would make him need to sleep for most of the trip? Or was he faking it? >>

After several readings, I realized that he was faking it in order to eavesdrop on the students.

Eric Oppen wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189541>:

<< I think Ron chose Divination because he saw it as a soft option >>

Come to think on it, why didn't Ron take Muggle Studies, widely believed to be an easy class? I didn't think he was already at the age of refusing to do something one wants to do just because one's father wants one to do it...

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189553>:

<< Hagrid is absurdly sentimental about his dangerous pets. Possibly, his fanatical attachment to "interestin'" creatures (which extends to his seemingly monstrous and untameable half-brother, Grawp) results from his loneliness and his sense of being different from everyone else. >>

I have seen it suggested that because too many people say Hagrid is dangerous because of being half-giant, he sympathizes with the animals that people say are dangerous and assumes that they are victims of prejudice like he is. 

But even tho' he doesn't seem to realize that his pets are dangerous, he does recognize a difference between interesting critters (to which he is attracted) and boring critters (to which he is not), so really he is attracted to the ones with powers of destruction even tho' he doesn't believe they would ever use those powers against people except in self-defense. Okay, Fang, unicorns, bowtruckles show the destructive ones are not the only animals that attract him.

Joey Smiley wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189550>:

<< I don't think [Binns] wanted to show off or pretend to know. In fact, I wonder if he *wanted* to do anything at all. (snip) He does not mean to teach though, I agree. He doesn't seem to have any goal at all, actually. >>

That may be related to him being a ghost. Sir Nicholas is a ghost with an ambition, to be admitted into the Headless Horsemen club, and Moaning Myrtle's ambition was to harass Olive Hornsby, but changed to having living people feel sorry for her. Still, it may be that ambition and goals are uncommon among ghosts. Maybe he used to have a goal but it went on the next great adventure with his soul, and was not left behind in the imprint his departed soul left on this world (DADA teacher Snape's definition of a ghost). 

CHAPTER DISCUSSION - PoA Chapter 6
with acknowledgement that the Questions first appears in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189533>, 
Sherriola discussed PoA Chapter 6 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189536>:

<< 1. Why did you think the Dementors affected Harry so badly, compared to everyone else? >>

Because he's the protagonist. But I was surprised to read the posts that some people thought the screams that he heard were real-time same-place.

When we found out that Harry had the worst reaction *because* his memories were the most traumatic, I assumed that Draco's not so good reaction was because he also had traumas in his past. Why didn't Ginny faint as well as Harry?

<< 2. Did you think anything was going on with Hermione's schedule or have any idea of how she was taking so many classes? >>

As a life-long science fiction fan, as soon as Ron said that three of her classes were at the same time, I knew there was time-travel involved.

Marianne wild irish rose replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189540>:

<< When finals came around, and Hermione was so overworked trying to study for all the classes, why didn't she jump back and forth between time zones to do her studying. How could she take all those exams? Would she use the time turner? >>

Hermione did use her time turner to take two exams at the same time (see Zanooda's <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189546>). It seems she never used it to get extra time to study or sleep. Maybe McGonagal specifically told her to use it only to attend classes or generically told her not to use it more than necessary.

<< 5. Did you think Trelawney was a true seer or a hoax? Did you expect any of her predictions to come true, even the simple ones? >>

In this chapter, I thought she was a complete hoax, altho' she did have an appropriate textbook and an organized lesson plan. If she had been mountainously fat instead of unusually thin, and kept her classroom so cold that all the students shivered rather than so hot they all fell asleep (and not had the well-organized lesson plan), she could have been my persona in the series, instead of me having to Mrs. Figg.

<< 6. Did you think Harry had truly seen a Grim? >>

I didn't think the teacup showed a Grim nor a dog, and I was sure the black dog back in Surrey was a dog, not a Grim. Listies pointed out that the teacup had shown a big black dog which was Sirius. 

The students' reaction to Trelawney saying that Harry had the Grim:
<< H[arry] could tell that he wasn't the only one who didn't understand; Dean Thomas shrugged at him and Lavender Brown looked puzzled, but nearly everybody else clapped their hands to their mouths in horror. >>

We knew that Harry didn't know about the Grim because he was Muggle-raised and we knew that Dean Thomas was Muggle-raised, so I view that as evidence that Lavender Brown was Muggle-raised despite having such a wizarding name.

<< 8. Do you think a person's Animagi form says anything about his or her character? Take McGonagall, does a cat fit her as you've come to know her through the series? >>

Megan PoohMeg replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189534>:

<< McGonagall seems pretty cat-like in some ways in her human form - keeps to herself, slightly superior attitude, etc. >>

and Nikkalmati replied in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/189544>:

<< I like McGonagal, but is she really cat-like? I am not sure. She is independent, but I don't think of cats as being so strict and willing to enforce the rules. >>

The only rule that cats are very strict about enforcing (and only on other cats) is their internal pecking order. Many cats make some efforts to enforce a rule on humans: "Thou shalt not mock or make fun of a cat", but their efforts usually consist of scowling at the human, then walking away in an arrogant style. 

However, I like to think McGonagal is cat-like, not only parading her dignity and privacy, but I like to think of her also as preferring to fix situations herself rather than ask others for help (altho' canon shows her dithering when an unknown monster is attacking students), and of secretly being extremely sensual behind closed doors. I say her private quarters in Hogwarts Castle contain a bath as warm and bubbly and perfumed as the Prefects' Bath (but smaller) and her bed has down comforters and mink pillows. Maybe an anti-gravity mattress for literally sleeping on air.

<< 11. What are your thoughts on Draco's actions in this lesson? Should he have listened more to Hagrid's instructions? Does he have any blame in the fact that he was injured? >>

Well, of course Draco has some blame for his own injury, because he had heard and understood the instructions and deliberately decided to do the opposite. I've often wondered WHAT WAS HE THINKING? Did he really think that an animal (a hippogriff) would defer to his high social status? At that age, he didn't seem mentally mature enough to make a long-term scheme, such as deliberately get injured in order to get Hagrid fired. On another tentacle, two years younger he had made the scheme of challenging Harry to a duel with the intention of not showing up, in order to get Harry caught violating curfew...

The foreword to FANTASTIC BEASTS AND WHERE TO FIND THEM mentioned that Newt Scamander's mother was a hobbyist breeder of fancy hippogriffs, and poor Bode in the hospital received a calendar with a picture of a different fancy hippogriff each month. From which I deduce that hippogriffs are not uncommon pets for wizarding people who can afford them. So Draco ought to have already visited relatives with stables of hippogriffs and been taught how to handle them.

Maybe he had, and had made friends with a hippogriff such that cooing "You're such a big ugly stupid monster" while scratching its eyebrows made it purr, and he assumed that a random half-wild hippogriff would 
respond the same?






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Sep 12 16:59:44 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 12 Sep 2010 16:59:44 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/12/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1284310784.20.50362.m8@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189558

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From ocegree at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 14 05:42:53 2010
From: ocegree at yahoo.com (Allan)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 05:42:53 -0000
Subject: Professor Trelawney
Message-ID: <i6n20t+de7n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189560

She only got it right twice in her life. I think Professor Dumbledore kept her at Hogwarts to protect her... if she were living outside she would have been killed by Voldemort.  He would have believed she was the real thing and consider her a threat.  But she was not. Dumbledore knew that and that is why she was not allowed to leave Hogwarts in HP OP.  That is what I think.  Any thoughts.

Allan



From ocegree at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 14 05:52:59 2010
From: ocegree at yahoo.com (Allan)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 05:52:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <i511t0+blsu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6n2jr+kfo2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189561

> 6. Did you think Harry had truly seen a Grim?

Did Harry see a Grimm:  No, I think he saw Sirius.

Allan



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 14 17:54:33 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:54:33 -0000
Subject: Professor Trelawney
In-Reply-To: <i6n20t+de7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6ocsp+qnrf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189562

Allan wrote:
>
> She only got it right twice in her life. I think Professor Dumbledore kept her at Hogwarts to protect her... if she were living outside she would have been killed by Voldemort.  He would have believed she was the real thing and consider her a threat.  But she was not. Dumbledore knew that and that is why she was not allowed to leave Hogwarts in HP OP.  That is what I think.  Any thoughts.

Carol responds:
I'm guessing that you mean the two prophecies, which she didn't know that she made. I think, though, that she really could "see," at least some of the time; she just couldn't interpret what she saw. For example, she saw a big black dog in the tea leaves and interpreted it as a Grim, but (as you say in another post), it was really Sirius. Nevertheless, she "saw" the dog (which Ron, IIRC, thought was a hippo). More important, she saw death and disaster coming nearer and nearer as she read the cards in HBP, but she rejected her own interpretation. Maybe she's the Neville of the faculty: all she needs is confidence and the courage of her convictions (and a little common sense). Otherwise, she appears to be another Lockhart--a failure and a phony--the difference being that she never deliberately hurts another person (or being), not even "the usurping nag" she hopes that DD will fire.

BTW, for what it's worth (probably nothing), Trelawny (or Trelawney) is a Cornish name, the only one I'm aware of in the book. (I know because one of the poet Shelley's friends and "biographers" was a Cornish adventurer with that surname.)

I agree that Voldemort would have killed Trelawney (after first invading her mind as driving her mad) had DD not kept her at Hogwarts even after Umbridge fired her. Despite wishing at one point to remove Divination from the curriculum, he was protecting not one but two Divination teachers in HBP!

Carol, who likes JKR's joke of making Trelawney literally farsighted




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Wed Sep 15 01:10:49 2010
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 01:10:49 -0000
Subject: Professor Trelawney
In-Reply-To: <i6n20t+de7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6p6ep+q7nj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189563



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Allan" <ocegree at ...> wrote:
>
> She only got it right twice in her life. I think Professor Dumbledore kept her at Hogwarts to protect her... if she were living outside she would have been killed by Voldemort.  He would have believed she was the real thing and consider her a threat.  But she was not. Dumbledore knew that and that is why she was not allowed to leave Hogwarts in HP OP.  That is what I think.  Any thoughts.
> 
> Allan
>


Marianne;

I kinda figured the same thing.




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Sep 15 02:58:14 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 02:58:14 -0000
Subject: Professor Trelawney
In-Reply-To: <i6n20t+de7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6pco6+8fo9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189564



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Allan" <ocegree at ...> wrote:
>
> She only got it right twice in her life. I think Professor Dumbledore kept her at Hogwarts to protect her... if she were living outside she would have been killed by Voldemort.  He would have believed she was the real thing and consider her a threat.  But she was not. Dumbledore knew that and that is why she was not allowed to leave Hogwarts in HP OP.  That is what I think.  Any thoughts.
> 
> Allan
>
Nikkalmati

I've always liked the idea that she is always right, but like Cassandra from Greek mythology - no one believes her (or she is misinterpreted).  Harry is really in danger, after all.  She predicted Hermione would leave the class, that Lavander would get bad news (her pet rabbit died), and that Neville would drop a cup.  Of course, all these have other explanations, but that is the point isn't it?  She also "saw" Harry in the Tarot cards while he was spying on her.  I also love the vision in my head of Trelawney in HBP constantly bothering Dumbledore with predictions of his demise - which he already knows about.  

Dumbledore doesn't believe her prophecy either, but he protects her because Vodemort is perhaps the only one who believes her and he would try in vain to get the last part of the prophecy from her by force.  
Nikkalmati
Nikkalmati




From margdean56 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 15 03:41:58 2010
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 21:41:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Professor Trelawney
In-Reply-To: <i6n20t+de7n@eGroups.com>
References: <i6n20t+de7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikizsGAHf-gdgjuWAr-WA0Xr6UFmaUZAJ1aDvM=@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189565

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Allan <ocegree at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> She only got it right twice in her life. I think Professor Dumbledore kept her at Hogwarts to protect her... if she were living outside she would have been killed by Voldemort. He would have believed she was the real thing and consider her a threat. But she was not. Dumbledore knew that and that is why she was not allowed to leave Hogwarts in HP OP. That is what I think. Any thoughts.

My opinion of Professor Trelawney is that she was capable of making
true predictions -- it happened twice, after all! -- but she didn't
have any kind of control over the gift, and you can't make a living on
that!  So the rest of the time she made do with hokum, the
stock-in-trade of fortune tellers the world over.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>



From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 16 05:35:58 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 05:35:58 -0000
Subject: Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <i6h2tp+1ph1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6sabu+qp6p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189566

>> Joey:

<< I don't think [Binns] wanted to show off or pretend to know. In fact, I wonder if he *wanted* to do anything at all. (snip) He does not mean to teach though, I agree. He doesn't seem to have any goal at all, actually. >>

>> Catlady responded:
>> That may be related to him being a ghost. Sir Nicholas is a ghost with an ambition, to be admitted into the Headless Horsemen club, and Moaning Myrtle's ambition was to harass Olive Hornsby, but changed to having living people feel sorry for her. Still, it may be that ambition and goals are uncommon among ghosts. Maybe he used to have a goal but it went on the next great adventure with his soul, and was not left behind in the imprint his departed soul left on this world (DADA teacher Snape's definition of a ghost). 

Joey again:

When I think of Bloody Baron, Helena Ravenclaw, Myrtyle and Peeves, I do agree that they do come across as aimless. Ghosts can't use spells but that should not matter as they can't eat, sleep, drink or even die. They can talk and so, can go for suitable employment. So, from that perspective, Binns educating students is probably pretty ambitious for a ghost. Nick and Friar seem to only socialize a lot than work. Yet this is better when compared to the sulking Myrtyle or Helena and pestering Peeves.




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 16 06:15:18 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 06:15:18 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
Message-ID: <i6sclm+df0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189567

In DH, out of all the DEs around, LV chose Narcissa Malfoy to check if Harry is still alive. 

Bellatrix is his trustworthy lieutenant and cannot-be-lost-to-Potter-just-in-case-he-is-alive material, I suppose. Alright. Maybe he felt somewhat similar about the rest of the DEs too. 

But why not say Lucius? Lucius has at least been trying hard to get back to LV's good books. Narcissa has been giving a deadpan stare for quite a long time. True that she was excited to see the Trio at Malfoy Manor but she was not as excited as her husband and was not there (at least Harry didn't see her in his vision) in the "running race" to escape LV's fury that followed the event. And I don't think her disappointment in Draco's treatment would have been missed by LV. 

So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of all the people? 

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 16 07:35:01 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 07:35:01 -0000
Subject: Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <i6sabu+qp6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6shb5+7aaq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189568

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joey Smiley" <happyjoeysmiley at ...> wrote:

Joey:
 
> << I don't think [Binns] wanted to show off or pretend to know. In fact, I wonder if he *wanted* to do anything at all. (snip) He does not mean to teach though, I agree. He doesn't seem to have any goal at all, actually. >>
> 
Catlady:
> >> That may be related to him being a ghost. Sir Nicholas is a ghost with an ambition, to be admitted into the Headless Horsemen club, and Moaning Myrtle's ambition was to harass Olive Hornsby, but changed to having living people feel sorry for her. Still, it may be that ambition and goals are uncommon among ghosts. Maybe he used to have a goal but it went on the next great adventure with his soul, and was not left behind in the imprint his departed soul left on this world (DADA teacher Snape's definition of a ghost). 
 
Joey:
 
> When I think of Bloody Baron, Helena Ravenclaw, Myrtyle and Peeves, I do agree that they do come across as aimless. Ghosts can't use spells but that should not matter as they can't eat, sleep, drink or even die. They can talk and so, can go for suitable employment. So, from that perspective, Binns educating students is probably pretty ambitious for a ghost. Nick and Friar seem to only socialize a lot than work. Yet this is better when compared to the sulking Myrtyle or Helena and pestering Peeves.

Geoff:
A couple of points occur to me.

Peeves is *not* a ghost.

He is a poltergeist. Therefore he can affect material things around him:

"He (Peeves) would drop waste-paper baskets on your head, pull rugs
from under your, pelt you with bits of chalk or sneak up behind you, 
invisible feet, grab your nose and screech, 'GOT YOUR CONK!' 
(PS "ThePotions Master" UK edition p.98);  

whereas the ghosts are incorporeal, the only effect they seem to have 
is to give you a nasty shock if they glide through you.

JKR's first comment about Binns is:

"Easily the most boring lesson was History of Magic, which was the only 
class taught by a ghost. Professor Binns had been very old indeed when
he had fallen asleep in front of the staff-room fire and got up next morning
to teach, leaving his body behind him."
(ibid. p.99)

This does actually make him slightly different to the other ghosts in that 
his existence seems to be quite ordered. However, I do get the feeling 
that a ghost's behaviour is partly related to their life experiences. As 
examples, Nearly Headless Nick seems to be obsessed with the fact that 
he wasn't beheaded totally which affects his relationship with the Headless 
Hunt and Myrtle is similarly tied in with her death - but they don't obsess 
to a set timetable.

Perhaps Binns is like some teachers whom I had at school or as colleagues
who lived and breathed teaching and seemed to have no life outside the 
classroom.






From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 16 09:13:07 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:13:07 -0000
Subject: Professor Trelawney
In-Reply-To: <c9ja22+pbrg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6sn33+1mgd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189569

Becki Wrote:
> Does Professor Trelawney have any magical powers?  And if so, why 
> would she not "Reparo"  Neville's tea cup after he broke it? I don't 
> remember her ever doing any spell work. 
> Did I miss something? 

Joey:

I don't think she used spellwork at all. Even during the Battle of Hogwarts, we see her only dropping crystal balls on the enemy but not using wand or spells.

Cheers,
~Joey, who always wonders why Trelawney never gave Hermione a detention :-)





From tonyaminton at gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 12:54:02 2010
From: tonyaminton at gmail.com (Tonya Minton)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 07:54:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i6sclm+df0v@eGroups.com>
References: <i6sclm+df0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=O12nqiy=Vmz4b8JmwGVP1qA-H0CywJwFVrGS1@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189570

Joey said:

So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of all the people?


Tonya:

I think The Dark Lord choose her because he felt Harry was a threat as much
as he didn't want to admit that, down deep The Dark Lord was scared of him
so it was a dirty, potentially life threatening job to go and check to see
if Harry was dead.  I think he sent Narcissa because in his mind she was
expendable, if she got killed then nothing lost.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From terrianking at aol.com  Thu Sep 16 17:34:22 2010
From: terrianking at aol.com (terrianking at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:34:22 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Narcissa Malfoy?
Message-ID: <4f6e.3f6956d4.39c3af1e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189571



In a message dated 9/16/2010 1:16:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com writes:

In DH, out of all the DEs around, LV  chose Narcissa Malfoy to check if 
Harry is still alive. 

Bellatrix is  his trustworthy lieutenant and  
cannot-be-lost-to-Potter-just-in-case-he-is-alive material, I suppose.  Alright. Maybe he felt somewhat 
similar about the rest of the DEs too.  

But why not say Lucius? Lucius has at least been trying hard to get  back 
to LV's good books. Narcissa has been giving a deadpan stare for quite a  
long time. True that she was excited to see the Trio at Malfoy Manor but she  
was not as excited as her husband and was not there (at least Harry didn't 
see  her in his vision) in the "running race" to escape LV's fury that 
followed the  event. And I don't think her disappointment in Draco's treatment 
would have  been missed by LV. 

So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of  all the people? 

Cheers,
~Joey :-)
 
Robert:
 
 
He  spent the entire book humiliating Lucius as much as he could and IMO he 
was  telling Lucius he wasn't going to trust him with even this simple a 
job, but  he would entrust his wife to do it. LV's lack of understanding love 
and family  led him to make one of his biggest mistakes among followers he 
thought he knew  so well.
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 16 18:24:33 2010
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:24:33 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 6: Talons and Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <i6n2jr+kfo2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6tnd1+jmbf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189572





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Allan" <ocegree at ...> wrote:

> 6. Did you think Harry had truly seen a Grim?
 
> > Did Harry see a Grimm:  No, I think he saw Sirius.
 

zanooda:

You are right of course, but the question was if you *thought* that Harry saw the Grim when you were reading the book for the first time. I personally didn't believe it was the Grim but I didn't think Harry just saw some stay dog either. I knew that the dog was important somehow, but I had no idea in what way. I wonder if there was someone who guessed it was Sirius from the first reading :-).




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 16 19:54:03 2010
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:54:03 -0000
Subject: Professor Trelawney
In-Reply-To: <i6pco6+8fo9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6tskr+rgbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189573



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
 
> She predicted Hermione would leave the class, that Lavander 
> would get bad news (her pet rabbit died), and that Neville 
> would drop a cup. Of course, all these have other explanations, 
> but that is the point isn't it? She also "saw" Harry in the 
> Tarot cards while he was spying on her.


zanooda:

And I've always liked someone's idea that when she said that Harry was born in mid-winter, she actually felt LV's soul piece inside of him, LV's birthday being on December 31 :-)).


> Joey wrote:

> I don't think she used spellwork at all. Even during the 
> Battle of Hogwarts, we see her only dropping crystal balls 
> on the enemy but not using wand or spells.


zanooda:

But she used her wand to send those crystal balls flying... :-). 


 





From jnoyl at aim.com  Thu Sep 16 19:14:49 2010
From: jnoyl at aim.com (James Lyon)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:14:49 -0700
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
Message-ID: <971E9D97-8B9F-4A8E-BBAF-2965D183FDCE@aim.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189574


Joey:
> So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of all the people?

James:
JKR wanted him to. There is no logical reason for almost any action  
in the series...



From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Sep 16 22:01:38 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:01:38 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <971E9D97-8B9F-4A8E-BBAF-2965D183FDCE@aim.com>
Message-ID: <i6u442+e2fi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189575



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Lyon <jnoyl at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Joey:
> > So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of all the people?
> 
> James:
> JKR wanted him to. There is no logical reason for almost any action  
> in the series...
>
AM - I actually think it was to make Narcissa feel bad. A boy, the same age as Draco, dead or badly hurt, as Narcissa fears her son is; what better way to be cruel than to make her check Harry's condition? It's the same motivation that makes Voldemort choose Hagrid to carry Harry's supposed corpse. He wants to make people feel bad.

AM




From technomad at intergate.com  Fri Sep 17 00:49:02 2010
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:49:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <971E9D97-8B9F-4A8E-BBAF-2965D183FDCE@aim.com>
References: <971E9D97-8B9F-4A8E-BBAF-2965D183FDCE@aim.com>
Message-ID: <20100916194902.zs4wenbeo0w048kk@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189576

Quoting James Lyon <jnoyl at aim.com>:

>
> Joey:
>> So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of all the people?
>
> James:
> JKR wanted him to. There is no logical reason for almost any action
> in the series...


Keep in mind, Lord V. is not exactly presented as being the sanest  
person in Wizarding Britain by a very long shot.  It might have been  
because Narcissa was standing closest to Harry, or because he wanted  
to get a peek down the front of her robes (and hope to hell Bellatrix  
didn't catch him looking at her sister)

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.





From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 17 00:53:35 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <20100916194902.zs4wenbeo0w048kk@webmail.intergate.com>
References: <971E9D97-8B9F-4A8E-BBAF-2965D183FDCE@aim.com> <20100916194902.zs4wenbeo0w048kk@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <348442.85200.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189577

> Joey:
>> So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of all the people?
>
> James:
> JKR wanted him to. There is no logical reason for almost any action
> in the series...

Eric:
Keep in mind, Lord V. is not exactly presented as being the sanest 
person in Wizarding Britain by a very long shot.  It might have been 
because Narcissa was standing closest to Harry, or because he wanted 
to get a peek down the front of her robes (and hope to hell Bellatrix 
didn't catch him looking at her sister)

luirhys: 
Hmm.. do you think that LV even had those kind of emotions? We know 
he wasn't capable of love, but of lust?

_,___ 








From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 02:18:11 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 02:18:11 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i6sclm+df0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6uj53+c179@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189578



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joey Smiley" <happyjoeysmiley at ...> wrote:
>
> In DH, out of all the DEs around, LV chose Narcissa Malfoy to check if Harry is still alive. 
> 
> Bellatrix is his trustworthy lieutenant and cannot-be-lost-to-Potter-just-in-case-he-is-alive material, I suppose. Alright. Maybe he felt somewhat similar about the rest of the DEs too. 
> 
> But why not say Lucius? Lucius has at least been trying hard to get back to LV's good books. Narcissa has been giving a deadpan stare for quite a long time. True that she was excited to see the Trio at Malfoy Manor but she was not as excited as her husband and was not there (at least Harry didn't see her in his vision) in the "running race" to escape LV's fury that followed the event. And I don't think her disappointment in Draco's treatment would have been missed by LV. 
> 
> So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of all the people? 
> 
> Cheers,
> ~Joey :-)
>

Nikkalmati

Somebody please explain to me why Narcissa lied about Harry being dead.  I know it is said she wanted to get into the castle to find Draco, but how did it make any difference if she told LV that Harry still lived?  Wouldn't she assume LV would kill Harry and then they would all go up to the castle anyway?  It was a big risk to take if LV found out Harry was alive and she had lied with no payoff for Narcissa that I can see.

Nikkalmati  




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 17 10:26:01 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:26:01 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <4f6e.3f6956d4.39c3af1e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <i6vfnp+bmks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189579

> So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of  all the people? 
> 
> Cheers,
> ~Joey :-)

> Robert:
>  
>  
> He  spent the entire book humiliating Lucius as much as he could and IMO he 
> was  telling Lucius he wasn't going to trust him with even this simple a 
> job, but  he would entrust his wife to do it. LV's lack of understanding love 
> and family  led him to make one of his biggest mistakes among followers he 
> thought he knew  so well.

Joey:

Hmmm... To me, that certainly sounds like a thing he would do.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 17 11:27:11 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:27:11 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i6uj53+c179@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i6vjaf+p973@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189580


> Nikkalmati
> 
> Somebody please explain to me why Narcissa lied about Harry being dead.  I know it is said she wanted to get into the castle to find Draco, but how did it make any difference if she told LV that Harry still lived?  Wouldn't she assume LV would kill Harry and then they would all go up to the castle anyway?  It was a big risk to take if LV found out Harry was alive and she had lied with no payoff for Narcissa that I can see.
> 
> Nikkalmati
>

The feeling I get is that Narcissa was absolutely through with any loyalty to LV by then.  This was his third attempt to AK Harry and his third failure.  I am sure this gave her hope that Harry was a real threat to finish LV, and she wanted to help that along by putting LV off his guard.

Annemehr





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 17 11:42:33 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:42:33 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <348442.85200.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <i6vk79+ar6d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189581

> > Joey:
> >> So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of all the people?
> >
> > James:
> > JKR wanted him to. There is no logical reason for almost any action
> > in the series...
> 
> Eric:
> Keep in mind, Lord V. is not exactly presented as being the sanest 
> person in Wizarding Britain by a very long shot.  It might have been 
> because Narcissa was standing closest to Harry, or because he wanted 
> to get a peek down the front of her robes (and hope to hell Bellatrix 
> didn't catch him looking at her sister)
> 
> luirhys: 
> Hmm.. do you think that LV even had those kind of emotions? We know 
> he wasn't capable of love, but of lust?

Joey:

While I think Narcissa standing closest to Harry could have been one reason, I don't think LV, however insane he was, had those types of emotions. He was too busy trying to make himself immortal, I guess.

Cheers,
~Joey, who enjoyed every response in the thread :-)





From teebee86627 at yahoo.ca  Fri Sep 17 02:23:14 2010
From: teebee86627 at yahoo.ca (~*~ teebeenee ~*~)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:23:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i6uj53+c179@eGroups.com>
References: <i6uj53+c179@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <319760.83243.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189582

Nikkalmati

Somebody please explain to me why Narcissa lied about Harry being dead.   I know 
it is said she wanted to get into the castle to find Draco, but how did it make 
any difference if she told LV that Harry still lived?  Wouldn't she assume LV 
would kill Harry and then they would all go up to the castle anyway?  It was a 
big risk to take if LV found out Harry was  alive and she had lied with no 
payoff for Narcissa that I can see.

teebee:
Seeing how LV tried to kill Harry and was unsuccessful maybe she finally 
believed Harry was the chosen one and would not die quickly. Every second she 
spends in the forest increases the chance of Draco dying. Or maybe when Harry 
told her that Draco was alive, lying to LV was a way of thanking Harry. 







From teebee86627 at yahoo.ca  Fri Sep 17 02:19:22 2010
From: teebee86627 at yahoo.ca (~*~ teebeenee ~*~)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:19:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Does Voldemort feel lust? (was Re:Why Narcissa Malfoy?)
In-Reply-To: <348442.85200.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <971E9D97-8B9F-4A8E-BBAF-2965D183FDCE@aim.com> <20100916194902.zs4wenbeo0w048kk@webmail.intergate.com> <348442.85200.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <598535.57486.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189583

Eric:
Keep in mind, Lord V. is not exactly presented as being the 
sanest person in Wizarding Britain by a very long shot.  It 
might have been because Narcissa was standing closest to 
Harry, or because he wanted to get a peek down the front of 
her robes (and hope to hell Bellatrix didn't catch him looking 
at her sister)

luirhys: 
Hmm.. do you think that LV even had those kind of emotions? We 
know he wasn't capable of love, but of lust?

teebee:
He might have understood lust. Maybe as something to get over 
quickly. When Harry told him that Snape loved Lily he replied 
"he desired her..." 







From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Sep 17 20:44:11 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:44:11 -0000
Subject: Does Voldemort feel lust? (was Re:Why Narcissa Malfoy?)
In-Reply-To: <598535.57486.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <i70jur+vgrq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189584

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ~*~ teebeenee ~*~ <teebee86627 at ...> wrote:
>
> Eric:
> Keep in mind, Lord V. is not exactly presented as being the 
> sanest person in Wizarding Britain by a very long shot.  It 
> might have been because Narcissa was standing closest to 
> Harry, or because he wanted to get a peek down the front of 
> her robes (and hope to hell Bellatrix didn't catch him looking 
> at her sister)
> 
> luirhys: 
> Hmm.. do you think that LV even had those kind of emotions? We 
> know he wasn't capable of love, but of lust?
> 
> teebee:
> He might have understood lust. Maybe as something to get over 
> quickly. When Harry told him that Snape loved Lily he replied 
> "he desired her..."

Geoff:
I think he most probably did. After all, lust and love are in many ways 
polar opposites. A person who lusts is seeking what? Self-gratification
and possibly power in the sense that the person lusted after is simply
an object to meet their desires and that seems very Voldemort to me.




From LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 17 16:57:21 2010
From: LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM (LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:57:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <319760.83243.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <i6uj53+c179@eGroups.com> <319760.83243.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CD24A0867A6636-1B60-33A5@webmail-d083.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189585


Nikkalmati:
Somebody please explain to me why Narcissa lied about Harry being
dead. I know it is said she wanted to get into the castle to find
Draco, but how did it make any difference if she told LV that Harry
still lived? Wouldn't she assume LV would kill Harry and then they
would all go up to the castle anyway? It was a big risk to take if
LV found out Harry was alive and she had lied with no payoff for
Narcissa that I can see.


Lee Ann:
I believe Narcissa lied about Harry being dead to be able to access
the castle along with a triumphant LV who would be distracted from
anything other than gloating.  As LV believed that his opponents
would surrender upon learning Harry was dead he had no thought for
anything anyone was doing.  All Narcissa cared about was getting to
her son.


Lee Ann Borgia
Miniature Books
www.picturetrail.com/leeann1948






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM  Fri Sep 17 16:58:56 2010
From: LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM (LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:58:56 -0400
Subject: Does Voldemort feel lust? (was Re: Why Narcissa Malfoy?)
In-Reply-To: <598535.57486.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <971E9D97-8B9F-4A8E-BBAF-2965D183FDCE@aim.com> <20100916194902.zs4wenbeo0w048kk@webmail.intergate.com> <348442.85200.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <598535.57486.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CD24A0BFD27685-1B60-3426@webmail-d083.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189586

Eric:
<snip> It might have been because Narcissa was standing closest
to Harry, or because he wanted to get a peek down the front of
her robes (and hope to hell Bellatrix didn't catch him looking
at her sister).

luirhys:
Hmm.. do you think that LV even had those kind of emotions? We
know he wasn't capable of love, but of lust?

teebee:
He might have understood lust. Maybe as something to get over
quickly. When Harry told him that Snape loved Lily he replied
"he desired her..."


Lee Ann:
LV understood lust.  He felt it was beneath him.  He couldn't
understand the average human and their emotions.


Lee Ann Borgia
Miniature Books
www.picturetrail.com/leeann1948




From technomad at intergate.com  Sat Sep 18 00:28:03 2010
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:28:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <8CD24A0867A6636-1B60-33A5@webmail-d083.sysops.aol.com>
References: <i6uj53+c179@eGroups.com>
	<319760.83243.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<8CD24A0867A6636-1B60-33A5@webmail-d083.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20100917192803.q3emny0picgsowsw@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189587

Quoting LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM:

>
> Nikkalmati:
> Somebody please explain to me why Narcissa lied about Harry being
> dead. I know it is said she wanted to get into the castle to find
> Draco, but how did it make any difference if she told LV that Harry
> still lived? Wouldn't she assume LV would kill Harry and then they
> would all go up to the castle anyway? It was a big risk to take if
> LV found out Harry was alive and she had lied with no payoff for
> Narcissa that I can see.
>
>
> Lee Ann:
> I believe Narcissa lied about Harry being dead to be able to access
> the castle along with a triumphant LV who would be distracted from
> anything other than gloating.  As LV believed that his opponents
> would surrender upon learning Harry was dead he had no thought for
> anything anyone was doing.  All Narcissa cared about was getting to
> her son.

I've often wondered, also, if Narcissa, who _did_ love her son (even  
if nobody else did/does) had a "That could just as easily be DRACO!"  
moment when she saw LV casually cut Harry, a boy of Draco's own age,  
down without a hint of mercy or remorse.  Not having had a mother in  
his life, or ever having had kids of his own, LV wouldn't even think  
of such a thing, and having her  check the "corpse" to make sure he's  
dead might be a matter of "she's standing closest/she's  
lowest-ranking/she's just a GURL, let her do it!"

It's a good thing that LV wasn't enamored of the French Revolution,  
otherwise he could have just cut Harry's head off and stuck it on the  
end of a pike.

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From LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM  Sat Sep 18 00:34:38 2010
From: LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM (LBORGIA993 at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:34:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <20100917192803.q3emny0picgsowsw@webmail.intergate.com>
References: <i6uj53+c179@eGroups.com><319760.83243.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><8CD24A0867A6636-1B60-33A5@webmail-d083.sysops.aol.com> <20100917192803.q3emny0picgsowsw@webmail.intergate.com>
Message-ID: <8CD24E069647EA6-740-5A4F@webmail-d083.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189589


Eric Open:
I've often wondered, also, if Narcissa, who _did_ love her son (even
if nobody else did/does) had a "That could just as easily be DRACO!"
moment when she saw LV casually cut Harry, a boy of Draco's own age,
down without a hint of mercy or remorse. Not having had a mother in
his life, or ever having had kids of his own, LV wouldn't even think
of such a thing, and having her check the "corpse" to make sure he's
dead might be a matter of "she's standing closest/she's
lowest-ranking/she's just a GURL, let her do it!"

It's a good thing that LV wasn't enamored of the French Revolution,
otherwise he could have just cut Harry's head off and stuck it on the
end of a pike.


Lee Ann:
Doesn't anyone remember how LV treated the Malfoys in their own home.  Lucius messed up big time as far as LV was concerned and LV really enjoyed humiliating him and his family!  The only individual LV ever cared about was himself.  Giving orders to someone like Narcissa who came from a wealthy pureblood family was a pleasure to LV (the halfbreed orphan).





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 02:44:17 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 02:44:17 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i6vjaf+p973@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i71921+akji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189590



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > Somebody please explain to me why Narcissa lied about Harry being dead.  I know it is said she wanted to get into the castle to find Draco, but how did it make any difference if she told LV that Harry still lived?  Wouldn't she assume LV would kill Harry and then they would all go up to the castle anyway?  It was a big risk to take if LV found out Harry was alive and she had lied with no payoff for Narcissa that I can see.
> > 
> > Nikkalmati
> >
> 
> The feeling I get is that Narcissa was absolutely through with any loyalty to LV by then.  This was his third attempt to AK Harry and his third failure.  I am sure this gave her hope that Harry was a real threat to finish LV, and she wanted to help that along by putting LV off his guard.
> 
> Annemehr
>

Nikkalmati

I guess I can live with that.  Maybe, she also felt that if LV lived, it was only a matter of time (a short time) until he killed Draco.  She probably knows about Snape by now and Harry is her only hope.

Nikkalmati




From ocegree at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 18 01:51:02 2010
From: ocegree at yahoo.com (Allan)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 01:51:02 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <319760.83243.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <i715u6+9erc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189591


> Nikkalmati
>
> Somebody please explain to me why Narcissa lied about Harry being dead.

I believe that Professor Dumbledore said it all:  Love Harry, love.  To protect her son she lied.  To protect her son Lily died.

Allan



From technomad at intergate.com  Sat Sep 18 05:59:08 2010
From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:59:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i715u6+9erc@eGroups.com>
References: <i715u6+9erc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20100918005908.7igqcvgsg48wco8s@webmail.intergate.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189592

Quoting Allan <ocegree at yahoo.com>:

>
>> Nikkalmati
>>
>> Somebody please explain to me why Narcissa lied about Harry being dead.
>
> I believe that Professor Dumbledore said it all:  Love Harry, love.   
>  To protect her son she lied.  To protect her son Lily died.
>
> Allan

One scene I'd love to have seen in the books would have been  
Narcissa's trial before the Wizengamot...and her defense by none other  
than Harry Potter!  He explains just how Narcissa lied to the Dork  
Lord, and Narcissa's let go (Lucius has yet to explain that little  
"Why were you out of Azkaban where you belong" thing) and, on the way  
out, Harry is grabbed by Narcissa, who asks him _why he did it._

Harry just looks at her and says "Can _I_ of all people turn my back  
on a mother who risked death for the love of her son?"

----------------------------------------------------------------
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Sep 18 17:55:46 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 18 Sep 2010 17:55:46 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/19/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1284832546.14.26478.m3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189593

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday September 19, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
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Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
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From miamibarb at comcast.net  Sat Sep 18 22:30:10 2010
From: miamibarb at comcast.net (ivogun)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 22:30:10 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i715u6+9erc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i73ehi+ogvu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189594




Because maternal love and human choices are both themes throughout the series. Narcissa, who some years earlier made a very bad choice in following Voldemort, now makes the right choice because of the power of love. Likewise I think maternal love is what gave Molly the courage to stand up to duel Bella. And of course the love of Harry's mother is what led even more directly to Voldemort's defeat. 

I am reminded of the group "Mothers against Drunk Drinking" and think the series could be renamed "Mothers against Voldemort."  








From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Sep 19 01:28:54 2010
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:28:54 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i715u6+9erc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i73p0m+hs4s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189595



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Allan" <ocegree at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Nikkalmati
> >
> > Somebody please explain to me why Narcissa lied about Harry being dead.
> 
> I believe that Professor Dumbledore said it all:  Love Harry, love.  To protect her son she lied.  To protect her son Lily died.
> 
> Allan
>
Nikkalmati

But how exactly was she protecting Draco? (unless you think she believed, contrary to what she had just seen, that Harry would be able to kill LV)

Nikkalmati




From ocegree at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 18 02:02:08 2010
From: ocegree at yahoo.com (Allan)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 02:02:08 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa
Message-ID: <i716j0+cfsh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189596

Maybe it comes from the Greek god Narcissus: love of oneself.  A name play.. at the end she does not care about herself but only her son.. again as Lily did.  It could be a contrast between the two that it the end only love wins......

Allan



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Sep 19 17:02:21 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 19 Sep 2010 17:02:21 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/19/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1284915741.530.58400.m15@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189597

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday September 19, 2010
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
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12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 20 17:43:55 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:43:55 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i73ehi+ogvu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i786gr+uvkr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189599



ivogun wrote: 
> Because maternal love and human choices are both themes throughout the series. Narcissa, who some years earlier made a very bad choice in following Voldemort, now makes the right choice because of the power of love. Likewise I think maternal love is what gave Molly the courage to stand up to duel Bella. And of course the love of Harry's mother is what led even more directly to Voldemort's defeat. 
> 
> I am reminded of the group "Mothers against Drunk Drinking" and think the series could be renamed "Mothers against Voldemort."
>
Carol responds:

Well, yes, that's why JKR gave that role to Narcissa. We discover in "Spinner's End" (HBP) that even Death Eaters and their associates love their children and families (and Narcissa is established as a foil to Lily with regard to the mother love motif).

But the original question was why *Voldemort* chose her. Unless the scene is a mere plot device, the participating characters need to have motives even for small actions. He certainly didn't choose Narcissa to honor her loyalty. My guess is that he chose her because she was wandless (having given her wand to Draco after his was lost to Harry) and therefore expendable if Harry happened to be alive.

Maybe someone else can come up with a better motive, but he has to have a reason for choosing Narcissa or the scene will fail in terms of believability.

Carol, who needs another cup of coffee to wake up her brain




From miamibarb at comcast.net  Mon Sep 20 22:06:52 2010
From: miamibarb at comcast.net (ivogun)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:06:52 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i786gr+uvkr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i78lts+6t0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189600






> 
> But the original question was why *Voldemort* chose her. Unless the scene is a mere plot device, the participating characters need to have motives even for small actions. 
>
> Maybe someone else can come up with a better motive, but he has to have a reason for choosing Narcissa or the scene will fail in terms of believability.
> 

I think Voldemort was sending a graphic message to Narcissa about what would happen to Draco (or any other Malfoy) if any member of the Malfoy family failed him again.






From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 21 04:22:15 2010
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 04:22:15 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i786gr+uvkr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i79btn+jujt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189602

> Carol wrote:
> 
[snip]
> 
> But the original question was why *Voldemort* chose her. Unless the scene is a mere plot device, the participating characters need to have motives even for small actions. He certainly didn't choose Narcissa to honor her loyalty. My guess is that he chose her because she was wandless (having given her wand to Draco after his was lost to Harry) and therefore expendable if Harry happened to be alive.

[snip]

Joey:

Hmmm... Maybe... With Gregorovitch killed and Ollivander gone, wonder what Narcissa did. Yet would she have been in the midst of such a battle without a wand? Not sure if she is that bold. Wouldn't Voldy, the horrible character that he was, have dispensed with her as soon as he found her to be wandless? My guess is Bellatrix might have forced a Snatcher or a "Mudblood" or a "Blood traitor" to part with their wand for Cissy's sake.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Sep 21 14:10:10 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:10:10 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i786gr+uvkr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i7aec2+l016@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189603



Carol responds:
<snip>
But the original question was why *Voldemort* chose
her. Unless the scene is a mere plot device, the
participating characters need to have motives even for small
actions. He certainly didn't choose Narcissa to honor her
loyalty. My guess is that he chose her because she was
wandless (having given her wand to Draco after his was lost
to Harry) and therefore expendable if Harry happened to be
alive.

Maybe someone else can come up with a better motive,
but he has to have a reason for choosing Narcissa or the
scene will fail in terms of believability.


Pippin:
I agree that Voldemort chose Narcissa because she was out
of favor and  the first expendable person he
happened to see. There's an element of contrivance in that,
but we've seen that others regarded as expendable by
Voldemort would turn against him if they could.

Voldemort's caution  indicates he may be  on the verge of
losing confidence again  and retreating. It's not
certain that he would have retreated, but Narcissa could be
certain that he'd continue to advance on the castle if he
believed that he had  triumphed and Harry was dead. And
Narcissa wanted above all else to get to the castle.

Voldemort wasn't worried about possible treachery because
he believed that no one could lie to him and get away with
it. He was not aware that Harry's intended sacrifice had
seriously compromised his powers.

Pippin





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 22 01:01:16 2010
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 01:01:16 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy? -- And what about those wands anyway?
In-Reply-To: <i786gr+uvkr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i7bkgs+oc3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189604



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> ivogun wrote: 
> > Because maternal love and human choices are both themes throughout the series. Narcissa, who some years earlier made a very bad choice in following Voldemort, now makes the right choice because of the power of love. Likewise I think maternal love is what gave Molly the courage to stand up to duel Bella. And of course the love of Harry's mother is what led even more directly to Voldemort's defeat. 
> > 
> > I am reminded of the group "Mothers against Drunk Drinking" and think the series could be renamed "Mothers against Voldemort."
> >
> Carol responds:
> 
> Well, yes, that's why JKR gave that role to Narcissa. We discover in "Spinner's End" (HBP) that even Death Eaters and their associates love their children and families (and Narcissa is established as a foil to Lily with regard to the mother love motif).
> 
> But the original question was why *Voldemort* chose her. Unless the scene is a mere plot device, the participating characters need to have motives even for small actions. He certainly didn't choose Narcissa to honor her loyalty. My guess is that he chose her because she was wandless (having given her wand to Draco after his was lost to Harry) and therefore expendable if Harry happened to be alive.
> 
> Maybe someone else can come up with a better motive, but he has to have a reason for choosing Narcissa or the scene will fail in terms of believability.
> 
> Carol, who needs another cup of coffee to wake up her brain
>

Annemehr:

Well, the thread had wandered, as they do.  I think the question of exactly why Narcissa lied is very interesting.  I'm not feeling like Voldemort needed a particularly compelling reason to choose Narcissa - as someone said, she may just have been standing nearest.  No?

Sometimes in life you do something for no particular reason, and it turns out to make all the difference in the world.

Speaking of being wandless, I can't recall the books ever saying what happened to all the Muggleborns' wands that were confiscated.  With Ollivander gone, maybe the a secondary reason behind the confiscation (besides disarming part of the opposition) was to be a source of spare wands for LV's side.

Those things were *really* hard to hang on to in DH.

Annemehr





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Sep 25 17:55:31 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 25 Sep 2010 17:55:31 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/26/2010, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1285437331.18.99096.m3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189607

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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Sep 26 17:06:06 2010
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 26 Sep 2010 17:06:06 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/26/2010, 1:00 pm 
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No: HPFGUIDX 189608

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From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 28 00:51:41 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (amanitamuscaria)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 00:51:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
Message-ID: <i7re6t+mulk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189609

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CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady


Professor Lupin's becomes most people's favourite class. Potions is still among the least favourite. Hagrid appears to have lost his nerve, and is having the class look after Flobberworms. Harry is depressed about the Hogsmeade weekend coming up. Ron and Hermione are fighting about Crookshanks and Scabbers, Hermione upsets Lavender and others by doubting Professor Trelawney's prediction of bad news was actually a prediction Lavender's rabbit was going to die. The rest of the third years go to Hogsmeade, and Harry stays behind. He has tea and a chat with Lupin about not being allowed to face the Boggart, where Lupin explains he thought Harry's boggart would be Lord Voldemort. Harry is there when Snape delivers a smoking goblet to Lupin, admonishing him to drink it straight away. Snape seems very focused on Harry being present. Harry tries to warn Lupin about Snape, but Lupin ignores his hints and drinks the potion. When Ron and Hermione return, laden with sweets and stories for Harry, he tells them about the incident. They watch Lupin and Snape at the staff table, as well as the entertainment laid on by the ghosts. When everyone returns to Gryffindor tower to go to bed, there is a problem - no one can get in, as the painting of the Fat Lady is shredded. Peeves gleefully reveals to Dumbledore and McGonagall, Lupin and Snape, as well as all the students gathered there, that Sirius Black has attempted to get into the tower.
  

1) Do you think, considering that Harry is usually wrong about Professor Snape, that the 'Neville's boggart' story is why Snape seems so tense and angry these days?

2) Do you think Hagrid could have sought or accepted advice about teaching, and who from?

3)How do you imagine Hermione survived all those years in the girls' dorms?

4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?

5) Is Lupin's idea that Harry's boggart might be Lord Voldemort reasonable, considering Harry was just over a year old when he saw him?

6) Do you think Peeves might have had an amicable relationship with the Marauders, as later it's apparent he has with the Weasley twins, and might he have been present when Sirius was in the castle?

AmanitaMuscaria


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From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 28 01:16:24 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:16:24 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i7re6t+mulk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i7rfl8+9mla@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189610



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria" <amanitamuscaria1 at ...> wrote:
><SNIP of the summary>

1) Do you think, considering that Harry is usually wrong about Professor Snape,
that the 'Neville's boggart' story is why Snape seems so tense and angry these
days?

Alla:

Well considering that I believe that Harry is usually right about Professor Snape at least as many times if not througout the book as he is wrong definitely I think Snape is angry because of "Neville's boggart" because he has a huge ego and has no idea how liberating it could be to laugh at oneself sometimes.

2) Do you think Hagrid could have sought or accepted advice about teaching, and
who from?

Alla:

I would say that he should have been given advice and if he would have been given the advice he would have accepted it, I do not see Hagrid seeking it out on his own simply because he would have been too shy and nervous about it IMO. I definitely think Dumbledore should have helped him.


3)How do you imagine Hermione survived all those years in the girls' dorms?

Alla:

I am not sure I quite understand this question. Could you clarify whether you mean that girls were giving her a hard time or you mean something else?

I think that we had been shown more than once that Hermione can handle herself very well and stand up against anybody (more than necessary sometimes if you ask me).

4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?

Alla:

That they really loved each other ;)

5) Is Lupin's idea that Harry's boggart might be Lord Voldemort reasonable,
considering Harry was just over a year old when he saw him?

Alla:

I would say no based on my childhood memories (the first time I can remember anything was when I was about three, I do not remember anything from my early years lol), but if Harry can dream aboput green light and motorcycle apparently he can remember his earlier years so I guess why not.

6) Do you think Peeves might have had an amicable relationship with the
Marauders, as later it's apparent he has with the Weasley twins, and might he
have been present when Sirius was in the castle?


Alla:

Quite likely in my opinion.

Thanks for the great questions AmanitaMuscaria.




From lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 28 02:42:37 2010
From: lui_rhys_01 at yahoo.com (lui)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:42:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
Message-ID: <227095.27361.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189611


1) Do you think, considering that Harry is usually wrong about 
Professor Snape, that the 'Neville's boggart' story is why 
Snape seems so tense and angry these days?

luirhys: Well, aside from the fact that He is working alongside 
Lupin whom he also hates by association with James and Sirius.


2) Do you think Hagrid could have sought or accepted advice 
about teaching, and who from?

> Alla: I would say that he should have been given advice and if 
he would have been given the advice he would have accepted it, 
I do not see Hagrid seeking it out on his own simply because 
he would have been too shy and nervous about it IMO. I definitely 
> think Dumbledore should have helped him.

luirhys: I beg to differ, I think Hagrid DID seek DD's help, 
aside from DD giving advice on his own terms. 


3)How do you imagine Hermione survived all those years in the 
girls' dorms?

> Alla: I am not sure I quite understand this question. Could 
you clarify whether you mean that girls were giving her a hard 
> time or you mean something else? <snip>

luirhys: Although we do not see Hermione as being close to the 
other girls in her year, I would think that she could get along 
with them. And I do not see them as "giving her a hard time", 
aside from their unintentional ignorance of her because she isn't 
interested in gossip and other 'girl stuff'.


4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?

> Alla:That they really loved each other ;)

luirhys: Yes! and that they are really mad about each other and 
snog on breaks! oh the stuff of fanfic. 


5) Is Lupin's idea that Harry's boggart might be Lord Voldemort 
reasonable, considering Harry was just over a year old when he 
saw him?

luirhys: Possibly if Harry had not encountered the Dementor on 
the train, LV would have dibs on his boggart. Even so, I do not 
think he fears LV per se, just that he fears the memory of his 
parents death? 


6) Do you think Peeves might have had an amicable relationship 
with the Marauders, as later it's apparent he has with the 
Weasley twins, and might he have been present when Sirius was 
in the castle?

luirhys: Based on Lupin's brief encounter with Peeves, I think 
they had a love/hate relationship. I could just imagine the 
marauders thinking of countless ideas of how to irritate Peeves, 
but they wouldn't like running into him during their pranks.

_thanks for the questions!
 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Sep 29 12:16:05 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 12:16:05 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i7re6t+mulk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i7vam5+3h5b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189612

  
> 
> 1) Do you think, considering that Harry is usually wrong about Professor Snape, that the 'Neville's boggart' story is why Snape seems so tense and angry these days?

Pippin:
I'd guess that Snape is worried about Sirius going after Harry, just like everyone else. Considering that Snape hates Lupin just as much as he hates Harry (and with far more cause), the really remarkable thing is how civilly Snape behaves towards him despite his obvious dislike. It is one way  JKR shows  us that Snape could have treated Harry better if he'd wanted to. 
> 
> 2) Do you think Hagrid could have sought or accepted advice about teaching, and who from? 

Pippin:
Myself, I'd have asked Flitwick or Sprout. But they are heads of what Hagrid probably still thinks of as rival Houses, and perhaps he thought McGonagall's feelings would be hurt if he didn't ask her. But she can be pretty rough on anyone she considers incompetent, so he might not have wanted to.


> 
> 3)How do you imagine Hermione survived all those years in the girls' dorms?

Pippin:
I've always thought it was fortunate for Hermione that Hogwarts doesn't grade on the curve. At least no one except Draco had to feel she was making them look bad.

Lavender's known Hermione for two years  at this point -- she'd hardly be shocked to discover that Hermione is an insufferable know-it-all,  who sometimes displays the emotional sensitivity of a teaspoon. But she'd also know that Hermione is a good person to have on your side, and as a dorm mate she definitely could save you a lot of slogging down to the library to look things up. 

I'd guess the atmosphere was pretty chilly during the Won-Won affair. But by that time Hermione was a prefect and well able to deal with anyone who decided to mess with her. 

Hermione doesn't hang out in the dorm so much anyway. 
She's the sort of kid who relates to adults better than to most other kids. Her friendships with McGonagall and Hagrid are steady all through the books, in contrast to the ups and downs she has with Harry and Ron. 

> 4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?

Pippin:
I certainly didn't see romantic tension. But there's no accounting for ships. I thought there was obviously some history and in due course we'd find out what it was. 
> 
> 5) Is Lupin's idea that Harry's boggart might be Lord Voldemort reasonable, considering Harry was just over a year old when he saw him?

Pippin:
I doubt that Seamus remembers any banshee or Parvati any mummies. The fears don't have to come from actual experience. However, what Harry experiences through the dementors is actually his experience of Voldemort, Harry just doesn't know that yet. 

 
> 6) Do you think Peeves might have had an amicable relationship with the Marauders, as later it's apparent he has with the Weasley twins, and might he have been present when Sirius was in the castle?

Pippin:
Peeves probably showed up when the Fat Lady was attacked, since he's drawn to trouble, and in the Marauder days admired Sirius as a fellow-trouble maker. But I can't see him helping Sirius to commit murder, and everyone thinks that's what Sirius is there to do.

Thanks for the intriguing questions.

Pippin




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 29 16:19:43 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:19:43 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i7re6t+mulk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i7vouv+fpg3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189613

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
> 
Snip summary>

> 1) Do you think, considering that Harry is usually wrong about Professor Snape, that the 'Neville's boggart' story is why Snape seems so tense and angry these days?

Carol (responding without having read anyone else's responses):
I'm certain, for the reason you stated, that Harry is wrong about the reason for Snape's tense and angry mood. In fact, there can be only one explanation: He's concerned for Harry's safety, and that concern focuses on one man, Professor Lupin, who not only turns into a werewolf once a month, posing a grave danger not only to Harry but to the entire student population if he doesn't drink the potion that Snape so carefully prepares, but was once a friend of the supposed murderer and traitor, Sirius Black, who is on the loose and intends (so Snape has every reason to think) to murder Harry. Harry, of course, doesn't know that Snape has sworn to protect him. He sees only that Snape is angry and resentful of Lupin and jumps to the obvious but wrong conclusion that it relates to the Neville incident. (OTOH, that incident didn't help matters or make Snape like Lupin any better!)
> 
> 2) Do you think Hagrid could have sought or accepted advice about teaching, and who from?

Carol:
Well, first, could have and would have are two different matters. Hagrid *is*, after all, more or less an expert on his subject, if not the teaching of it, and he simply doesn't realize that his students (who, after all, have magical powers) aren't as immune as he is to the dangers posed by "interestin' creatures). He could, possibly, have consulted the retired Professor Kettleburn, but since that professor lost at least one limb through contact with magical creatures, Hagrid probably never considers asking him for advice, and he probably doesn't yet know of the existence of Professor Grubblyplank, whom he might well regard as less of an expert than himself since she follows the (relatively) safe and (to Hagrid) boring Ministry-approved curriculum. He probably wouldn't ask Dumbledore, either, since DD had sufficient faith in his abilities to hire him for the post. In any case, once Hagrid loses confidence in himself, he simply falls apart. It never occurs to him to consult an experienced teacher (or a successful but possibly inexperienced teacher like Lupin) for advice on teaching a dangerous subject. It's even possible that he expects to encounter prejudice or to be snubbed and ridiculed if he asks for advice, partly because he's supposed to be an expert and partly because he's an unqualified, only partially educated half-giant, in contrast to the other teachers, all of whom are fully qualified witches or wizards. I do think that someone like Lupin or McGonagall would have been glad to help him. Even Snape might have offered some snide but sound advice. But Hagrid tends to cry and give up in despair when things go wrong.
> 
> 3)How do you imagine Hermione survived all those years in the girls' dorms?

Carol:
I don't understand the question. I imagine that she was a loner and studied a lot. At least the other Gryffindor third-year girls that we see, Lavender and Parvati, don't actively hate or persecute her even if they don't include her in their girly-girl activities. Is that what you meant?
> 
> 4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?

Carol:
I've already pretty much answered this question. Snape detests and distrusts Lupin and wants to be certain that he drinks his potion. He probably watches him as he did Quirrell in Harry's first year. Lupin, on the other hand, neither likes nor dislikes Snape, having no personal animus against him (unlike Sirius Black and the late James Potter) but no reason to like him, either, given their schoolboy history. Lupin certainly trusts that Snape is not out to poison him and trusts his potion-making abilities. He's even grateful, I think, for the chance to sleep peacefully during his monthly werewolf phase. What he says in HBP about Snape (they'll never be friends, but he'll never forget the potions that Snape made for him) pretty much sums up Lupin's feelings at this point. He certainly has no suspicions that Snape is or has ever been a Death Eater despite what became of his Slytherin friends. DD's trust of Snape no doubt helps. At any rate, Lupin is civil to Snape and Snape is watchful and wary.
> 
> 5) Is Lupin's idea that Harry's boggart might be Lord Voldemort reasonable, considering Harry was just over a year old when he saw him?

Carol:
Absolutely, given that LV tried to kill him (twice so far) and succeeded in killing his parents. Harry knows that LV can come back in some form, just as he did in first year when he possessed Quirrell. Of course, Harry is most likely to see LV as he was when he looked out from the back of Quirrell's head rather than in his own body as he was at Godric's Hollow, but, yes, it's quite a reasonable assumption. In fact, I'm pretty sure that LV *would* have been Harry's Boggart had he never encountered a Dementor. (What I don't think is reasonable is Lupin's assumption that fear of Dementors equals fear of fear itself. I think it's a visceral fear of a horrible creature whose powers Harry has partially experienced.)
> 
> 6) Do you think Peeves might have had an amicable relationship with the Marauders, as later it's apparent he has with the Weasley twins, and might he have been present when Sirius was in the castle?

Carol:
Probably. He loves mischief and mayhem. But he wouldn't have been above teasing Wormtail or "loony, loopy Lupin" when they were alone. Personally, I'd love to see equal-opportunity mayhem, with a cold water balloon dropped on Sirius and James, but that's only because I heartily dislike them both.

Carol, who hasn't reread the books recently and may have gotten some details wrong





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 29 16:32:15 2010
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:32:15 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i7vam5+3h5b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i7vpmf+3drs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189614

> > 4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?

Carol responds:
Just realized that I misunderstood this question. What *did* I make of it on a first reading? I thought that he disliked and distrusted DADA teachers in general and that he had special reason for disliking Lupin. Certainly, the Neville incident didn't help, but I thought that he was protecting Neville in his snide way, assuming that, like Harry, he had a Boggart that might be better unviewed. (Once I learned about Bellatrix Lestrange in GoF, I assumed that PoA Snape had anticipated a Bellatrix Boggart for Neville. If that was his assumption, and I have no intention of arguing for what can't be proven, the assumption backfired, which would lead to righteous indignation on Snape's part.) At any rate, as a Snape fan, I assumed that there was more to his dislike of Lupin than resentment of the Neville incident or jealousy of the current DADA teacher. He'd been right to suspect Quirrell and to hold Lockhart in contempt, after all!

Carol, with apologies for not reading the question closely 





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 29 20:03:51 2010
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:03:51 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i7vam5+3h5b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i80637+47cq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189615


2) Do you think Hagrid could have sought or accepted advice about teaching,
and who from?

Pippin:
Myself, I'd have asked Flitwick or Sprout. But they are heads of what Hagrid
probably still thinks of as rival Houses, and perhaps he thought McGonagall's
feelings would be hurt if he didn't ask her. But she can be pretty rough on
anyone she considers incompetent, so he might not have wanted to.

Alla:

I again blame Dumbledore for not giving Hagrid advice. What's new, right? When in doubt blame Dumbledore ;) No seriously, I do. I think his attitude that JKR was going on about at some point about letting people stew on their own, when he would not go to Hagrid (forgot the exact question), while sometimes let people make independent decisions, more often than not was extremely annoying, because he was not giving help to people who needed it IMO.



> 4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?

Pippin:
I certainly didn't see romantic tension. But there's no accounting for ships. I
thought there was obviously some history and in due course we'd find out what it
was.

Alla:
I am not sure if the clarification is needed, but I was joking. Of course  we all know that canon did not support Snape and Lupin being lovers or Sirius and Lupin or Snape and Sirius, but if as a slash lover I were to look for romantic interaction, neither ever I would say that Lupin and Snape were ones. 
Sirius and Snape? Oh yes, because I felt that Sirius could stand against Snape  and their noncanonic interactions would be the ones I would enjoy and did enjoy in fanfiction. Snape and Lupin to me would be basically revolting person bullying somebody who is kind and gentle (when he is not a werewolf lol) and I had no desire to reread the redux of Snape v Harry scenario. I mean, I read the stories about Snape and Lupin, but did not like them.

Sorry for the clarification and for no canon in it, but it seemed to me that you were answering it seriously and I just wanted to make it clear that I was not.

5) Is Lupin's idea that Harry's boggart might be Lord Voldemort reasonable,
considering Harry was just over a year old when he saw him?

Pippin:
I doubt that Seamus remembers any banshee or Parvati any mummies. The fears
don't have to come from actual experience. However, what Harry experiences
through the dementors is actually his experience of Voldemort, Harry just
doesn't know that yet.

Alla:

Oh good point, I however thought that question was specifically about whether such young child could remember it, but you are right, it does not have to be.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Sep 30 01:42:12 2010
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 01:42:12 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 7:  The Boggart in the Wardrobe
In-Reply-To: <i69evd+ssdg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i80ptk+ttc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189616



> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. What does Hermione's punishment for helping Neville say about Snape?

potioncat:

Well, I can justify it in a way since Snape told her not to help Neville. I'm not sure if he knew she helped, or if he assumed she helped. But from one standpoint, it was cheating.

Maybe I've been away from HP longer than I realised, but I was really taken aback at how badly Snape treated Neville. His comments just seemed very over the top---was he angry just because the color of the potion was wrong? I was wondering if Neville's potions were incredibly worse than everyone else's. In an earlier thread someone mentioned that characters need a credible motivation for their actions; I'm not sure I understand Snape's motivation for treating Neville the way he does. I suppose now I'm looking at it from post-DH with nothing in canon to support Snape's dislike for Neville. While in earlier years I expected something to happen to explain it.

I have to admit, I'm not sure if Snape was just as bad in SS/PS and CoS or if he's worse in PoA. I do think we see a Snape-on-edge in this book. He believes Black is after Potter; he thinks Lupin is a danger, and may think Lupin will either help Black or be overwhelmed by Black (as he was in his youth). And I think this concern is playing out in every Snape scene. So I guess I just answered my own querry above.
> 
> 2. What did you think Lupin's boggart was the first time you read the chapter?

Potioncat:
Silly me. I thought it was a crystal ball.
> 
> 3. What did you think Malfoy meant by his comment about how Harry should want
> revenge on Sirius Black the first time you read the chapter?
> 
Potioncat:
I'm sure I didn't understand. But what I get this time is that Draco knows the story about Black betraying the Potters. It's not supposed to be a widely circulated story. So do the Malfoys also think Black was working for LV? (Cissy, your cousin turned out to be a stand up guy afterall.) And what do the other DEs believe? I don't get the feeling that the Askaban-DEs think Black is one of them.

The other thing is that Draco isn't acting like Black is a cousin. Perhaps he's smart enough not to mention it to Potter--or perhaps he doesn't know?

Thanks for the thoughtful questions.




From ocegree at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 30 04:52:23 2010
From: ocegree at yahoo.com (Allan)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 04:52:23 -0000
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <i81527+pjel@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189617

Why was Harry always wrong? He never got anything right until
the last book.... why would she do that?

Allan



From dbroughton1 at yahoo.com.au  Thu Sep 30 06:41:34 2010
From: dbroughton1 at yahoo.com.au (Duane Broughton)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 23:41:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <397260.9441.qm@web120410.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189618

Must have been reading a different set of books. Harry was often 
right, besides how boring would it have been for someone, who for 
11 years didn't know diddly squat about magic, suddenly have all 
the answers. The joy of the books was the way the three of them 
had different strengths to draw upon.

Duane



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Sep 30 15:04:14 2010
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:04:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i80637+47cq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i828te+o5n1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189619


> Alla:
> 
> I again blame Dumbledore for not giving Hagrid advice. What's new, right? When in doubt blame Dumbledore ;) No seriously, I do. I think his attitude that JKR was going on about at some point about letting people stew on their own, when he would not go to Hagrid (forgot the exact question), while sometimes let people make independent decisions, more often than not was extremely annoying, because he was not giving help to people who needed it IMO.
> 
Pippin:
Going to Dumbledore would mean going over McGonagall's head. Hagrid might think that was insulting. And it would definitely be insulting for Dumbledore to give advice to Hagrid if Hagrid didn't ask for it, and perhaps also insulting to McGonagall in implying that she wasn't the proper person, as Deputy Headmistress and Hagrid's former HoH, to give Hagrid advice if he needed it. 

Giving advice to people who haven't asked for it is interfering at best and manipulative at worst. Anyway, Dumbledore and, more importantly, JKR, want people to make the right choices because they believe in what they're doing, not because some old coot with a beard knows so much and  is good at making himself obeyed. As Hermione says, if you don't let people get things wrong, how will they learn? 

I think JKR wants to make it clear that the strong are not supposed to protect the weak so that the weak can have an idyllic  existence. The weak are to be protected so that they can survive their mistakes and learn to be strong in their turn.

I said "if it was me" in my answer because Hagrid wouldn't have applied for the job if he didn't think he could do it.  Hagrid himself doesn't think much of Fudge for taking his problems to Dumbledore all the time.  Harry isn't the only one who doesn't want to think his problems are so awful that they need attention from the greatest wizard the world has ever known.

The flobberworm lessons do give Hagrid a chance to practice his classroom management skills without having to worry that the subject matter is going to disembowel the students.  And if Harry finds them boring, then maybe he should remember that he saw the incident with Draco about to happen and just watched. Safety is everyone's responsibility, right?

 
> > 4) What did you make of the interactions between Lupin and Snape?
> 
> Pippin:
> I certainly didn't see romantic tension. But there's no accounting for ships. I
> thought there was obviously some history and in due course we'd find out what it
> was.
> 
> Alla:
> I am not sure if the clarification is needed, but I was joking. <snip>

Pippin:
I figured you were. To clarify my answer, at the time when I first read PoA I had not yet joined the fandom. I had never heard of slash, or shipping, I didn't know that other people besides me  wrote fan fiction, and I hadn't thought of trying to write any fan fiction set in the Potterverse. All of which is just to say that imagining extra-canonical romantic relationships between Snape and anybody was not even on my radar at that point. 

> 
> 5) Is Lupin's idea that Harry's boggart might be Lord Voldemort reasonable,
> considering Harry was just over a year old when he saw him?
> 
<snip>
> Alla:
<snip>
 I however thought that question was specifically about whether such young child could remember it, but you are right, it does not have to be.
>

Pippin:
I myself have a few memories from a trip to Florida at that age, so personally I think it's possible,  especially since Harry has the scar as a memento. As we know, Harry doesn't consciously remember how he got it, but Lupin doesn't know that. 

Pippin





From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Sep 30 20:54:07 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 20:54:07 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <227095.27361.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <i82tdf+ullc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189620



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lui <lui_rhys_01 at ...> wrote:
>
>
> 
> 3)How do you imagine Hermione survived all those years in the 
> girls' dorms?
> 
> > Alla: I am not sure I quite understand this question. Could 
> you clarify whether you mean that girls were giving her a hard 
> > time or you mean something else? <snip>
> 
> luirhys: Although we do not see Hermione as being close to the 
> other girls in her year, I would think that she could get along 
> with them. And I do not see them as "giving her a hard time", 
> aside from their unintentional ignorance of her because she isn't 
> interested in gossip and other 'girl stuff'.
> 
> 
AmanitaM now -

I thought that, however self-sufficient and buried in her books Hermione is, she has every evening and morning with her dorm-mates. Kids can be cruel, and Hermione seems to be marching to a different drum the whole time. We later see that Luna was bullied, her possessions taken. I suppose JKR is hinting at the down-side of boarding school.





From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Sep 30 21:13:27 2010
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:13:27 -0400
Subject: Teachers at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <i828te+o5n1@eGroups.com>
References: <i828te+o5n1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4CA4FD77.4010002@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189621

  Pippin:
> Going to Dumbledore would mean going over McGonagall's head. Hagrid might think that was insulting. And it would definitely be insulting for Dumbledore to give advice to Hagrid if Hagrid didn't ask for it, and perhaps also insulting to McGonagall in implying that she wasn't the proper person, as Deputy Headmistress and Hagrid's former HoH, to give Hagrid advice if he needed it.

Bart:
     My take? Dumbledore asked Hagrid to take the job. Hagrid was 
honored. But, being Hagrid, he felt that asking for advice on how to 
perform the job properly would mean that he wasn't living up to 
Dumbledore's expectations. Also, note that each teacher has their own 
teaching methods; I suspect that Professor Sprout would have been the 
best person for Hagrid to approach for advice, as her "hands on" style 
is closest to his own. But let's take a look:

1) Sprout: takes a very pragmatic approach. Has the students get  some 
basic knowledge, then learn through actual observation.

2) Snape: Hey, it was easy for him. If the students don't get it as fast 
as he did, then they are lazy. Taking the concept of "have high 
expectations, and then the students will rise to meet them" somewhat too 
far. Which leads us to:

3) Minny the Cat. She also uses the "have high expectations, and then 
the students will rise to meet them" tack as well, but she is much more 
realistic about the difference between trying and not succeeding and 
slacking off.

4) Flitty: We didn't see too much, but it appears that he was a lot like 
Lupin: challenge the students, but don't push too hard. Praise success, 
encourage trying again with failure. Treat laziness with disappointment, 
rather than anger.

5) Binns: Give the students the facts, don't worry about whether or not 
they actually learn anything. Frankly, I think that Dumbledore was 
derelict in his duties by keeping him on; he almost guaranteed that the 
students would NOT learn history.

6) Cooking Sherry: She's a fraud, alright, but not necessarily in the 
way she is painted as being. She knows the practice, but knows nothing 
of the theory, or even why the methods work for some and not others. So 
she just teaches basic methodology without giving any advice on how to 
best make the methods work.

7) Dobbin: Actually, much like Binns, gives the information to the 
students, but doesn't put effort into ensuring that they are actually 
learning. The difference between him and Binns is that his behavior 
implies that he would prefer it if the students learned, while Binns 
doesn't seem to care one way or the other.

     Any other observations?

     Bart



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 30 22:32:52 2010
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:32:52 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 8: Flight of the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <i828te+o5n1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i8336k+hivt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189622

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
 
Alla:
> > I again blame Dumbledore for not giving Hagrid advice. What's new, right? When in doubt blame Dumbledore ;) No seriously, I do. I think his attitude that JKR was going on about at some point about letting people stew on their own, when he would not go to Hagrid (forgot the exact question), while sometimes let people make independent decisions, more often than not was extremely annoying, because he was not giving help to people who needed it IMO.

> Pippin:
> Going to Dumbledore would mean going over McGonagall's head. Hagrid might think that was insulting. And it would definitely be insulting for Dumbledore to give advice to Hagrid if Hagrid didn't ask for it, and perhaps also insulting to McGonagall in implying that she wasn't the proper person, as Deputy Headmistress and Hagrid's former HoH, to give Hagrid advice if he needed it. 

> Giving advice to people who haven't asked for it is interfering at best and manipulative at worst. Anyway, Dumbledore and, more importantly, JKR, want people to make the right choices because they believe in what they're doing, not because some old coot with a beard knows so much and  is good at making himself obeyed. As Hermione says, if you don't let people get things wrong, how will they learn? 

Geoff:
As a Headmaster, Dumbledore is responsible for what his staff are doing and
therefore answerable to the Governors and, in a UK situation, to the LEA (Local
Education Authority) and nowadays Ofsted (the Office for Standards in Education).

When I was a young teacher, I had a great Head who taught me mpre about the
class room than any lecturer at College. His initial approach was to suggest to 
me that I took on a particular class or task and then pose the question "Are y
ou all right with this? Do you want any advice or more information?"

In that way you have a sounding board to see whether what you think is right *is* 
right and , as I know from the same Head that very often just a sentence in my 
ear would point up something which I had missed or perhaps got wrong. For
that, I still hold his memory dear 15 years after his death.

When I started teaching, anyone in the IK with a degree could automatically
apply for a teaching post. I can remember staff at my grammar school who
were brilliantly qualified in their subject but who were hopeless at passing 
this information on because they had not acquired teaching skills and very 
often couldn't hold a class down. Sadly, Hagrid falls into this category because
nobody took this on board and I feel that he didn't realise this when he took
the post.




From stacey_altman at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 24 16:34:30 2010
From: stacey_altman at yahoo.com (STACEY)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:34:30 -0000
Subject: TV SHOW REQUEST/ RESEARCH
Message-ID: <i7ijun+7j2e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189623

Hi Potter fans!

I am new to the group am doing research-- as well as being a HP
fan! My name is Stacey Altman, I'm a TV producer and developing
a new show for the Discovery Networks (you can look me up on IMDB
to see I'm legit!)  I was hoping you could help me and perhaps
know of some people that might be a good fit for this show. I am
developing a new reality show that focuses on married couples
where the husband has a strong passion or hobby, and the wife is
not exactly thrilled about. The show, with the help of an expert,
gets them on the same page. It's a feel good, fun type of reality
show that follows the couples journey.  Husbands with passion for
Harry Potter, Star War, collectibles, comics or superheros, etc.
would be perfect for this show.  I attached the casting link
below. Let em know your thoughts and if you have any suggestions
for me, or could post this, etc.

Thanks for your help.
All the best,
Stacey Altman
Executive Producer

DO YOU LOVE TO PLAY VIDEO GAMES, HAVE A HARRY POTTER OR STAR WARS
OBSESSION OR COLLECT COMIC BOOKS? MAJOR CABLE NETWORK CASTING NOW
FOR MARRIED COUPLES WITH HUSBANDS THAT HAVE A "YOUTHFUL SPIRIT!"

Does your wife constantly nag that you are spending hours too many
playing video games, or involved in every fantasy football league?
Do you love to read the comic books on-end, or go to Trekkie
conventions? Do you wish you could prove to your wife that your
childish ways are the RIGHT way and she should just accept it and
join in the fun? Let us help you referee your issues! We are casting
for a reality show where an expert helps squabbling couples come to
terms with their inner kid. We are searching for outgoing and
opinionated married couples that have a long-standing argument or
issue that must be resolved. No problem is too small or too strange!

The series examines and tells the story of couples from their own
voice and narrative. We are looking for couples with compelling
stories of all types.

Interested people should email: nycproducer123 at gmail.com . Please
include your name, age, location, contact #'s and a description
about your story and current situation with your spouse.


ELF NOTE:
Because of the unusual nature of this post, the elves have
allowed it on the main list. We ask that any replies go
directly to the author/email address provided and not to
the list. If anyone would like to discuss the content of
the post, please do so on OTChatter.



From amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Sep 24 08:07:33 2010
From: amanitamuscaria1 at yahoo.co.uk (AmanitaMuscaria)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:07:33 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy? -- And what about those wands anyway?
In-Reply-To: <i7bkgs+oc3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i7hm85+pc8g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189629



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:

> Annemehr:
snip 
> Speaking of being wandless, I can't recall the books ever saying what happened to all the Muggleborns' wands that were confiscated.  With Ollivander gone, maybe the a secondary reason behind the confiscation (besides disarming part of the opposition) was to be a source of spare wands for LV's side.
> 
> Those things were *really* hard to hang on to in DH.
> 
> Annemehr
>
AmanitaMuscaria now -
Spare wands - well, I guess Voldemort would be happy with his followers having not-quite-suitable wands; he doesn't want anyone to be too powerful, does he?
I still think his main motivation for choosing Narcissa to check Harry was to hurt her. He enjoys hurting people. He didn't have to do the Revival potion flim-flam in front of everyone; he could have gathered his ingredients and just done it. Making Harry watch the procedure, making Peter cut off his hand was for the theatre and enjoyment of the power he has over people. Humiliating Lucius in front of the other Death-Eaters was done for enjoyment - Lucius was powerful, so Voldemort belittles him, creating resentment and ill-will. Narcissa lays a hand on him to prevent his protest at the time, but I doubt she forgets, and I think JKR wants to show that bullies create their own downfall. Hence, the undermining, non-confrontational action of Narcissa. The opportunity presents itself, and she chooses disobedience. 




From andy at mugglesguide.com  Thu Sep 23 14:26:47 2010
From: andy at mugglesguide.com (andym2020)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:26:47 -0000
Subject: Why Narcissa Malfoy?
In-Reply-To: <i6sclm+df0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i7fo37+foc1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 189633

Hello Joey,

Thursday, September 16, 2010, 7:15:18 AM, you wrote:

> In DH, out of all the DEs around, LV chose Narcissa Malfoy to check if Harry is still alive.

> Bellatrix is his trustworthy lieutenant and
> cannot-be-lost-to-Potter-just-in-case-he-is-alive material, I suppose.
> Alright. Maybe he felt somewhat similar about the rest of the DEs too.

> But why not say Lucius? Lucius has at least been trying hard to get
> back to LV's good books. Narcissa has been giving a deadpan stare for
> quite a long time. True that she was excited to see the Trio at Malfoy
> Manor but she was not as excited as her husband and was not there (at
> least Harry didn't see her in his vision) in the "running race" to
> escape LV's fury that followed the event. And I don't think her
> disappointment in Draco's treatment would have been missed by LV.

> So, why do you think he chose Narcissa Malfoy of all the people?

Andrew:
By this time, the Lucius was out of favour with LV, and it was only
really a matter of time before he murdered Lucius and Narcissa - they
had by now served their purpose and were no longer of any use to him.

Even though Draco had succeeded, he was also in real danger of being
murdered by LV.

It's pretty obvious by this time that Narcissa was scared out of her
wits not only for herself, but also for her husband and especially for
her son, who she (despite her previous outward appearance of coldness)
truly loves and dotes on.

So, to answer the main point brought up here (IMHO): LV gets Narcissa to
check Harry because she is so (and obviously) scared, she doesn't want
to be there, she wants to be left alone, she wants to get herself and
her family away to safety.

Voldemort is vindictive and takes pleasure in seeing people in physical
and and mental pain/anguish. So instead of getting Bella to it, who
would really would enjoy the task, he gets Narcissa to do it, quite
simply because he knows she *doesn't* want to do it; Voldemort gets
pleasure from bossing her around, scaring her and making her do things
she does not want to do.

People like Voldemort (and bullies in general) prey on the weak because
to them, it's fun.

I know that he should have gotten someone he could trust to do it, but
he's not exactly the sanest of people.

As for the second point brought up in this thread: Why did Narcissa lie?
I think it is quite simply because she hoped that as Harry was still
alive, there was still a chance that he could defeat Voldemort, and her
family could be saved. There is also the chance that by now she resented
Voldemort, and to her, it is a way of fighting back or "rebelling"
against him.


--
 Andrew Mills