The House System was Re: Chapter Discussion: Goblet of Fire Ch. 4: Back

[Geoff]

No: HPFGUIDX 191514

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sigurd at ... wrote:

Otto:
> You Say "I was one of those who, when Book 7 appeared, expressed a dislike of the Epilogue. It merely underlined a few events but left a lot of unresolved questions, including the glance between the two men. Why include it? How do we square the disillusioned and frightened Draco of the final battle with the apparently reinstated guy out in public with his family and able to acknowledge Harry. Why are the two not just ignoring one another? Fanfic has offered a number of suggestions over the years since the book appeared, often including action by Harry to rehabilitate his erstwhile rival. A few hints from the author might not go unwelcomed."
> 
> Here I must say I stand in violent agreement with you. Certainly all of the issues you say COULD have formed the basis for a crack in the adamantine rivalry between the houses. Certainly Harry's saving of Draco from the burning room and Draco's sometimes hesitant actions towards Harry when he has him in his grasp, and certainly Narcissa's behaviour towards Harry in the end could hint-- no-- I will definitely say that they DO hint or at least beg the question of some sort of humanity creeping into the relationship. After all she KNOWS she is betraying Voldemort- AGAIN and putting her own life in danger.  A tantalizing possibility indeed. But we have none of that and all we have is supposition, and I like you was extremely dissatisfied with the epilogue.
> 
> I must state that I am a purist (being a historian) and in this case fanfic be damned. It, to a historian is pretty much as anathema as "What-If" History-- what if Rome did not fall, what if Lincoln was not assassinated-- all of these are interesting truffles but unsatisfying. The fact remains that Rowling produced the canon and as I said her words her ideas can be the only source that is authoritative and, as insufficient and unsatisfying, or -- unappealing-- as they may be remain the only standard of "truth" that we can resort to.
> 
> Now, to turn around and talk out of the other side of my mouth-- I could from history cite many, Many, MANY examples of great rapproachmonts through history and it would be entirely logical to assume that Harry, reflecting on Narcissa's actions (perhaps in later years in the early youth of his own children)  might see some connection between her and Lilly, AND it would be essentially in line with Rowling thesis of the center point importance of motherly love.  Indeed, one could imagine a whole Romeo-and Juliet story between the Potter and the Malfoys some thirty years later etc. (Complete with happy or tragic ending- your choice). However- that's all counter-factual and hence, extremely problematic when we are trying to get close to the book itself. I find the work as given has more than enough meat to chew on for quite a while.
> 
> Indeed, one might through the actions of the archetypical heroes (Draco and Harry) see a rehabilitation or change in both houses, such that neither Slytherin NOR Gryffindor are the same after the events of the seven books.
> 
> But again-- that's another book, and it looks like we're not going to get one-- and at this point, I rather hope we don't. I would be too afraid that the result would be a hodgepodge of fanfic wishes rather than a straight story as pronounced by Rowling herself, who as the author of the canon can be the only true "puppeteer".

Geoff:
I'm not sure whether to feel privileged or concerned that you are in 
violent agreement with me. I have had people violently DISagree with 
me in the past but never the opposite
..

However, I felt a need to reply to raise a number of issues – some 
concerning the views we have of the books and some about the 
group itself. After your rather explosive entry into HPFGU, namely 
24 posts in the 49 posts between 191464 and 191512 is going 
somewhat. I don't think even I posted to that extent in my early 
days eight and a half years ago!! It is just as well that you did not 
join about a year or so ago when there was a posting limit of five 
per day which was rescinded because of low numbers. I presume 
that you must prepare a lot offline  unless you can type very quickly 
judging by the time and date on each one. I do also wonder whether 
you read the posting rules, as you were required to, particularly:

Welcome to Harry Potter for Grownups, a friendly, thought-provoking 
place for adult discussions of the HP books
 
and also: HPforGrownups (the "Main List") is for discussion of the HP 
books (i.e., the 'canon')


In your long discussions on Main, several of your posts have been 
more suited to HPFGU-Off Topic chatter because they have drifted 
away from canon. One post I certainly recall (191479) was about 
snakes as symbols of evil and, interesting as it may be, contained 
no canon reference at all and several have drifted off-topic in your 
analyses of the books.

But to return to the topic of "the gap" between 1998 and 2017 when 
we have little or no knowledge of what happened. I do not think that 
we are venturing into the world of "What if" but making sensible 
guesses. You write: "I must state that I am a purist (being a historian) 
and in this case fanfic be damned
. The fact remains that Rowling 
produced the canon and as I said her words her ideas can be the only 
source that is authoritative and, as insufficient and unsatisfying, or -- 
unappealing—as they may be remain the only standard of "truth" that 
we can resort to." 

But there is no canon there to be authoritative. 

Apart from the basic relationships in the epilogue and I believe a 
sketchy outline of who married who by J.K.Rowling there is very little 
information available to cover this period. You, speaking as a historian, 
must know of situations where there is a lack of knowledge and 
speculative suggestions are made to fill in the gaps which can provoke 
further thought on the subject. I have to admit that I have always had a 
soft spot for Draco because I believe that he grew up in an environment 
which channeled and distorted his view of the world and have always 
wished for a rapprochement between him and Harry; I am allowed to 
imagine that because it does not disagree with anything that J.K.Rowling 
has said – or not said. That is my view. Disagree if you wish but please 
do not dictate to me that I MUST accept your version.

Like myself, I know from off-group conversations that many other 
members of the group began reading Harry Potter for pleasure. I have read 
LOTR and the Narnia books on many occasions purely for *enjoyment*. I 
do not indulge in literary criticism; to try to analyse these books sentence 
by sentence, and full stop by full stop would destroy that pleasure. I do 
not want to seek political statements or philosophical nuances in what the 
author has written. I just like to know that Harry lived in the end and that 
evil was defeated. I didn't like every outcome; I still don't think that Ginny 
was right for Harry but that is how J.K.Rowling wanted it. OK. But where a 
specific outcome was not indicated, there is no reason why you or I or 
anyone else can imagine a result without trying to impose our view on 
others with the implication that non-acceptance is indicative of a lack of 
understanding, either in a literary sense or otherwise.