From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Feb  1 01:00:08 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 01:00:08 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <ii72s8+r4iu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ii7luo+32ob@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190015

 
> Steve:
snip 
  
> It isn't an insensitivity toward Lavender, but a complete disbelief that anyone could see this as an accurate prediction by Trelawney.
> 
> Though, I don't think I can deny that there was probably a better time and place for Hermione to argue her case. 

Potioncat:
I'm going to join in on this side after re-reading the conversation between Hermione and the girls. (It takes place in Chpt 8)

Hermione asks what's wrong and offers sympathy. Lavender mentions that this is the day Trelawney had warned her about, and starts trying to make this event fit the prophecy--which clearly requires some creative interpretation. As I read it, Hermione actually seems perplexed at the conversation's turn.

So Lavender is suggesting why the news of the rabbit's death fits Trelawney's prediction and Hermione begins countering. Much like some of our threads at HPfGU, it sort of got out of hand. Then Ron ends it with a comment about Hermione's lack of compassion for other people's pets. 

Again, it was Lavender who brought up the whole Trelawney thing--I don't think it was so much insensitivity on Hermione's part as it was bad timing and perhaps some poor choice of words. 





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb  1 07:47:32 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 07:47:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <ii7g2n+mpj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ii8dqk+o7cu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190016

> 


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
 
Steve:

> As Harry and Hagrid escape in the 'Seven Potters' chapter of 
> the last book, Harry's side car breaks away for Hagrid's 
> motorcycle and begins to free fall, until Harry perform the
> Levitation spell to save himself. 

Geoff:
Yes, but there two things to consider here.

Firstly, I think that the motor bike was much higher than a
Quidditch player would be. The other point is the time 
element, which partly stems from my previous sentence.

Picking up on your comment above:

'There was a deafening bang and the sidecar broke away from the 
bike completely; Harry sped forwards, propelled by the impetus of
the bike's flight, then the sidecar began to lose height-

In desperation, Harry pointed his wand at the sidecar and shouted
"Wingardium Leviosa!"'
(DH "The Seven Potters" p,34 UK edition)

Both of these points considered, Harry had far more time to collect 
himself and take some action
that there would be in the Quidditch incidents we see.




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb  1 07:49:14 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 07:49:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <ii7g2n+mpj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ii8dtq+h5n5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190017

> 


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
 
Steve:

> As Harry and Hagrid escape in the 'Seven Potters' chapter of 
> the last book, Harry's side car breaks away for Hagrid's 
> motorcycle and begins to free fall, until Harry perform the
> Levitation spell to save himself. 

Geoff:
Yes, but there two things to consider here.

Firstly, I think that the motor bike was much higher than a
Quidditch player would be. The other point is the time 
element, which partly stems from my previous sentence.

Picking up on your comment above:

'There was a deafening bang and the sidecar broke away from the 
bike completely; Harry sped forwards, propelled by the impetus of
the bike's flight, then the sidecar began to lose height-

In desperation, Harry pointed his wand at the sidecar and shouted
"Wingardium Leviosa!"'
(DH "The Seven Potters" p,34 UK edition)

Both of these points considered, Harry had far more time to collect 
himself and take some action
that there would be in the Quidditch incidents we see.




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb  1 07:52:41 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 07:52:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <ii7luo+32ob@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ii8e49+gru6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190018



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
 
Potioncat:
> I'm going to join in on this side after re-reading the conversation between Hermione and the girls. (It takes place in Chpt 8)

Geoff:
Ah, thank you.

As the member who wrote the notes and question for Chapter 13,
I've been wondering for days this incident got into the thread which 
have developed.
 
Although I know my way around canon pretty well, I'd failed to find
that bit.




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Feb  1 17:43:45 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 10:43:45 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter
 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <ii8e49+gru6@eGroups.com>
References: <ii8e49+gru6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D484651.9060005@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190019


> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam"<willsonkmom at ...>  wrote:
>
> Potioncat:
>> I'm going to join in on this side after re-reading the conversation between Hermione and the girls. (It takes place in Chpt 8)
> Geoff:
> Ah, thank you.
>
> As the member who wrote the notes and question for Chapter 13,
> I've been wondering for days this incident got into the thread which
> have developed.
>
> Although I know my way around canon pretty well, I'd failed to find
> that bit.
Shelley
I bet someone was just a little behind in their reading. It happens, 
especially when you get the list by emails, since emails keep until you 
read them, even if it's weeks later.

I didn't mind the conversation though, because I think Rowling planned 
this confrontation partly to show how the kids will grow up, and partly 
in her theme of emotions and misdirection.



From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Feb  2 02:49:59 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 02:49:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <4D484651.9060005@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <iiagon+i94h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190020



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shelley <k12listmomma at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam"<willsonkmom@>  wrote:
> >
> > Potioncat:
> >> I'm going to join in on this side after re-reading the conversation between Hermione and the girls. (It takes place in Chpt 8)
> > Geoff:
> > Ah, thank you.
> >
> > As the member who wrote the notes and question for Chapter 13,
> > I've been wondering for days this incident got into the thread which
> > have developed.
> >
> > Although I know my way around canon pretty well, I'd failed to find
> > that bit.
> Shelley
> I bet someone was just a little behind in their reading. It happens, 
> especially when you get the list by emails, since emails keep until you 
> read them, even if it's weeks later.
> 
> I didn't mind the conversation though, because I think Rowling planned 
> this confrontation partly to show how the kids will grow up, and partly 
> in her theme of emotions and misdirection.
>
Nikkalmati

I still hold to my belief (or interpretation) that JKR intended for us to see that Trelawney is always right - just like Cassandra she is not believed or she is misinterpreted, even by herself.  It is a little twist that adds a bit of irony to the story.  In this case the reader is expected to side with Hermione as to the validity of the prediction, but as the books go on we are supposed to see the pattern.

Nikkalmati




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb  2 03:34:56 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 03:34:56 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <ii7luo+32ob@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iiajd0+sbpp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190021



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> Again, it was Lavender who brought up the whole Trelawney thing--I don't think it was so much insensitivity on Hermione's part as it was bad timing and perhaps some poor choice of words.

Pippin:
I agree, it wasn't a simple case of Lavender trying to mourn her pet in peace and Hermione wouldn't let her. I think Lavender seized on the drama of Trelawney's prediction to distract herself from her grief, and Hermione, who didn't get that any more than she got why Harry wanted to play Quidditch rather than talk about Sirius, kept pressing for details about Binky.

But it's also not a simple case of Hermione wanting the truth to be told. Hermione  has personal reasons for wanting to discredit Trelawney. She dislikes Trelawney both for disparaging her and for upsetting Harry with her predictions. But those predictions,  let us remember, were dead on. Harry did have an enemy, and he was in mortal danger. 

I think insensitive is the wrong word -- but Hermione faced with a logic problem is like a dog with a bone. She just can't let go of it, even when a more perceptive person might see that it's not the time. And I think, too, that there's just a touch of Dursleyism  in Hermione's refusal to see any merit at all in divination. She didn't think the world should  be allowed to work in ways that Hermione Granger could not understand. 

Pippin









From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  2 07:23:13 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 07:23:13 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <iiagon+i94h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iib0p1+4b6k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190022

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
> > ...
> > 
> > I didn't mind the conversation though, because I think 
> > Rowling planned this confrontation partly to show how the
> > kids will grow up, and partly in her theme of emotions 
> > and misdirection.
> >
> Nikkalmati
> 
> I still hold to my belief (or interpretation) that JKR intended for us to see that Trelawney is always right - just like Cassandra, she is not believed or she is misinterpreted, even by herself.  It is a little twist that adds a bit of irony to the story.  In this case the reader is expected to side with Hermione as to the validity of the prediction, but as the books go on we are supposed to see the pattern.
> 
> Nikkalmati
>

Steve:

Relative to Hermione being sympathetic, I hold with my original
stand that Hermione would have been plenty sympathetic, if the
event, or prediction of the event, hadn't been attributed to
Trelawney.

But that is a point about the characters within the story. 
However, you bring up a completely different point about how we
the reads are suppose to react to and interpret the story and
characters.

We see, or at least I see, that while Trelawney does have the
give of foresight, as with all things like this, interpreting
what she sees is corrupted by a best guess as to what it
means.

She righty sees Sirius in his dog form many times, but 
misinterprets the vision as a Grim. She see someone leaving
the class, and Hermione leaves the class. Her 'foresight' in
reading the cards in the 6th books are scarily on point, but
she is mystified in interpreting what the cards are telling her. 

The same is true of the prediction of tragedy in Lavender's 
life on a particular date. Yet, what vision did she really see
to lead her to believe that? Did she see Lavender crying and
grief stricken on a particular date, and assume it represented
tragedy on that date? 

I think that is precisely what JRK is trying to show us. 
Despite giving Harry's Prophesy, which we know is both very 
real and very very subject to interpretation, she gives minor
predictions all the time. And, those predictions turn out to 
be right but only within a certain context. 

As Hermione argues her case, about the rabbit not dying on that
day, and so forth, she is looking at this as pure logic, and as
list of facts. But, as I said, we only heard Trelawney 
interpretation, we don't know precisely what vision or intuitive
feeling lead to that interpretation. 

I suspect this is always, or with extreme frequency, the 
trouble in intuitive senses, visions of foresight, crystal 
gazing, card reading, tea reading, palm reading, prophesies, and
everything else; they are all subject to misinterpretation. 

Hermione is trying to resolve an intuitive sense or prophetic
vision as a list of facts, but that is not at all what they are.

Steve/bboyminn





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  2 07:28:47 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 07:28:47 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <iiajd0+sbpp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iib13f+mne8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190023



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
... She (Hermione) didn't think the world should  be allowed 
to work in ways that Hermione Granger could not understand. 
> 
> Pippin
>

Oh lord, was there every a degree of this at work here. That is
Hermione's whole beef with divination. It requires an intuitive
sense, and can't be learned as a collection of data and 
information.

It is probably eating her up inside, which is probably one of 
the things the prevents her from restraining herself in that
particular moment.

Good thought.

Steve/bboyminn




From beccy.talmy at googlemail.com  Wed Feb  2 11:11:33 2011
From: beccy.talmy at googlemail.com (Beccy Talmy)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 13:11:33 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13:
 Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <iib13f+mne8@eGroups.com>
References: <iiajd0+sbpp@eGroups.com>
	<iib13f+mne8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=RKTRTWMdXA+2ohF-di6zq1oz1AYyTDi=Gcbfq@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190024

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
> ... She (Hermione) didn't think the world should  be allowed
> to work in ways that Hermione Granger could not understand.

Steve:
> Oh lord, was there every a degree of this at work here. That is
> Hermione's whole beef with divination. It requires an intuitive
> sense, and can't be learned as a collection of data and
> information.
>
> It is probably eating her up inside, which is probably one of
> the things the prevents her from restraining herself in that
> particular moment.


Presumably, given how carefully planned the books were, Rowling knew
by this point that 
Lavender was going to be Hermione's romantic rival
in book 6. In which case, this scene takes on significance in relation
to that. To be honest, I'm really surprised to see the majority
sympathising with Lavender. In my mind, Lavender is presented
throughout the series as shallow and excessively girly. Hermione, in
contrast, is a strong, intelligent, thoughtful young woman, whose
prominence in the Harry Potter series will, I imagine, have been a
blessing for girls who, like I was, are more studious and serious than
giggley, girley and, often, more popular. Dumbledore, who has a
fantastic sense of fun, describes Trelawney's two predictions she
doesn't recall as her only 'real' ones. Lavender as a contrast to
Hermione is not the same thing as Luna; Ron learns from his
relationship with Lavender about everything he doesn't want in a
relationship and is attracted to in Hermione. A voice of reason, even
when someone is upset, isn't so awful, in my view, as everyone seems
to be making out. In fact, its the premise of cognitive behavioural
therapy, which helps an awful lot of people deal with a variety of
problems. I really don't think this scene is intended to show up
Hermione. It's to show up Lavender and Trelawney! My boyfriend can
sometimes rile me by responding very rationally when I go to him with
an issue i'm very emotional about. But the problem isn't that he tries
to help me rationalise my emotions. It's that he needs to remember to
sympathise with them beforehand. But Lavender has plenty of sources of
sympathy around her, and Hermione isn't, I maintain, unsympathetic.
She just feels it's important not to allow everyone to get carried
away. Particularly as, if Trelawney's predictions were to prove sound,
Harry, our protagonist and Hermione's best friend, would be even more
freaked out by the prospect of his own imminent death!

Beccy.



From terrianking at aol.com  Wed Feb  2 17:40:50 2011
From: terrianking at aol.com (terrianking at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 12:40:50 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
Message-ID: <2f4.5a828fb3.3a7af122@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190026



In a message dated 2/2/2011 1:29:22 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
bboyminn at yahoo.com writes:

Oh  lord, was there every a degree of this at work here. That is
Hermione's  whole beef with divination. It requires an intuitive
sense, and can't be  learned as a collection of data and 
information.

It is probably  eating her up inside, which is probably one of 
the things the prevents her  from restraining herself in that
particular moment.

Good  thought.

Steve/bboyminn




I don't think it was something she obsessed on. She already knew back  in 
first year that wizards/witches have no sense of logic as pointed out to  
Harry when solving Snape's logic puzzle in the dungeons. She's seeing here in  
action that lack of insight where most everyone immediately attributes the 
event  as  being the prediction come true. They have no reason to look at it  
logically because magic (or someone magical) said 'it' would happen and  
magic is right. It becomes an argument when they don't understand her  
reasoning that magic might be wrong once in a while. 
JMO
 
Robert


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Feb  2 18:58:36 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 11:58:36 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13:
 Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <2f4.5a828fb3.3a7af122@aol.com>
References: <2f4.5a828fb3.3a7af122@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4D49A95C.8000004@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190027

On 2/2/2011 10:40 AM, terrianking at aol.com wrote:
> I don't think it was something she obsessed on. She already knew back  in
> first year that wizards/witches have no sense of logic as pointed out to
> Harry when solving Snape's logic puzzle in the dungeons. She's seeing here in
> action that lack of insight where most everyone immediately attributes the
> event  as  being the prediction come true. They have no reason to look at it
> logically because magic (or someone magical) said 'it' would happen and
> magic is right. It becomes an argument when they don't understand her
> reasoning that magic might be wrong once in a while.
> JMO
>
> Robert
I agree! I think we have the prospective as readers of following Harry 
and Hermione of being from a Muggle society when they entered into this 
Wizarding World. They spot easily the superstition and lack of logic 
that comes with that lack of questioning how magic works because Wizards 
aren't used to analyzing magic- for Wizards, magic just works, and 
that's all they need to know. So they don't question divination or 
prophesies, because to them, that's just one (valid?) magical ability. 
Ron immediately relates to the social acceptance of an idea of a Grim 
and the superstitious idea of it bringing bad luck or misfortune, but 
Harry doesn't accept that feeling of doom at all that he was supposed to 
feel if he had been raised in that society. His attitude is almost 
irreverent at that point, or seen as "brave" because he's unafraid of 
the Grim. So also Hermione's reaction is seen as insensitive because if 
she were a proper Witch, she would have just accepted Trelawney as 
normal for this society. Instead she doesn't accept those gifts as real, 
and it causes a cultural clash with Lavender, because the two girls 
don't see where each other is coming from. I think it's a clash that 
would have happened anyway, even if this scene hadn't been coupled with 
the rabbit dying.

Someone else brought up the romantic set up of Lavender and Ron, and I 
think that is correct also. The initial reaction of Lavender and Ron 
makes sense- they are both from Wizarding families, so they 
automatically understand each other in so many ways because of their 
cultural similiarities. Ron's conflict with Hermione I think also comes 
from difference in their upbringing, and I think that is why many 
readers might have paired Harry with Hermione.

Shelley



From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Feb  2 15:44:42 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:44:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <iib0p1+4b6k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <22885.4166.qm@web113910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190028

Steve:
Relative to Hermione being sympathetic, I hold with my original
stand that Hermione would have been plenty sympathetic, if the
event, or prediction of the event, hadn't been attributed to
Trelawney.

But that is a point about the characters within the story.
However, you bring up a completely different point about how we
the reads are suppose to react to and interpret the story and
characters.

We see, or at least I see, that while Trelawney does have the
give of foresight, as with all things like this, interpreting
what she sees is corrupted by a best guess as to what it
means.

She righty sees Sirius in his dog form many times, but
misinterprets the vision as a Grim. She see someone leaving
the class, and Hermione leaves the class. Her 'foresight' in
reading the cards in the 6th books are scarily on point, but
she is mystified in interpreting what the cards are telling her.

The same is true of the prediction of tragedy in Lavender's
life on a particular date. Yet, what vision did she really see
to lead her to believe that? Did she see Lavender crying and
grief stricken on a particular date, and assume it represented
tragedy on that date?

I think that is precisely what JRK is trying to show us.
Despite giving Harry's Prophesy, which we know is both very
real and very very subject to interpretation, she gives minor
predictions all the time. And, those predictions turn out to
be right but only within a certain context.

As Hermione argues her case, about the rabbit not dying on that
day, and so forth, she is looking at this as pure logic, and as
list of facts. But, as I said, we only heard Trelawney
interpretation, we don't know precisely what vision or intuitive
feeling lead to that interpretation.

I suspect this is always, or with extreme frequency, the
trouble in intuitive senses, visions of foresight, crystal
gazing, card reading, tea reading, palm reading, prophesies, and
everything else; they are all subject to misinterpretation.

Hermione is trying to resolve an intuitive sense or prophetic
vision as a list of facts, but that is not at all what they are.


June:
The thing is as Hermione pointed out Lavender only heard about
the death of her rabbit that day and the rabbit actually died
the day before and the rabbit being a well baby there was no
way to worry that it would die, however what if that wasn't what
Lavender was worried about. She may have just been worried that
she would get bad news of any kind and it happened the day
Trelawney said it would or Trelawney could have put the worry in
her head. Like with Neville we know he is clumsy but do we really
know he was going to break a cup? He could have done it because
it was just put in his head that he would. Mind over matter.






From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  2 20:10:41 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 20:10:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor vs Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=RKTRTWMdXA+2ohF-di6zq1oz1AYyTDi=Gcbfq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iicdo1+srtb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190029

BECCY: "A voice of reason, even when someone is upset, isn't so awful, in my view, as everyone seems to be making out."

Steve:

Well, let's keep some perspective here, no one is accusing
Hermione of high crimes against humanity. Her timing was bad
and she was insensitive, not unsympathetic, just insensitive.
But that's what kids do. Can we really say Harry or Ron or the
Twins have never been insensitive? That's what kids do, there
self-censoring mechanisms are not fully developed yet. 

This most recent bout of discussion has brought up something
else in my mind. I wonder if Lavender heard Ron's comment 
about Hermione not understanding people's pets. I wonder if
that didn't plant the first seed in Lavender's mind that Ron
might be someone worth pursuing as a boyfriend. In that moment,
assuming she heard, she probably saw Ron as a sweet, sensitive, 
sympathetic guy. 

Lastly, Hermione's attitude towards Divination. I think kids
act a lot on instinct in general. They frequently do and feel
things without any conscious thought as to why.

I don't think Hermione is sitting around saying to herself -
I hate Divination because I can't learn it from books. I 
think it is much more subconscious than that. I think 
consciously she has just convinced herself that it is pure
fraud, and that her time could be better spend in other
academic pursuits. But subconsciously she is biased against
it because it can't be learned the way she learns things 
best. 


Steve/bboyminn





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  3 15:23:48 2011
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 15:23:48 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <4D49A95C.8000004@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <iieha4+hgm3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190030

Shelley wrote:
<snip>
> Someone else brought up the romantic set up of Lavender and Ron, and I think that is correct also. The initial reaction of Lavender and Ron makes sense- they are both from Wizarding families, so they  automatically understand each other in so many ways because of their cultural similiarities. Ron's conflict with Hermione I think also comes from difference in their upbringing, and I think that is why many  readers might have paired Harry with Hermione.

Carol responds:
One slight problem with this reasoning: Don't we learn somewhere that Lavender is Muggle-born? For one thing, a baby rabbit seems like an unusual pet for a kid from a Wizarding family. They usually have cats, owls, or toads (judging from the letter Harry receives from the school in SS/PS).

Carol, who hasn't had time lately to reread the books




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Feb  3 01:08:13 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 17:08:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor vs Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <iicdo1+srtb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <454897.51629.qm@web113906.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190031

Steve:
> <snip> Lastly, Hermione's attitude towards Divination. I think
kids act a lot on instinct in general. They frequently do and
feel things without any conscious thought as to why.

I don't think Hermione is sitting around saying to herself -
I hate Divination because I can't learn it from books. I
think it is much more subconscious than that. I think
consciously she has just convinced herself that it is pure
fraud, and that her time could be better spend in other
academic pursuits. But subconsciously she is biased against
it because it can't be learned the way she learns things
best. <


June:
Also although it probably wasn't intentional and I am sure she
did not realize it but that first day in Divination Professor
Trelawney was terribly rude with Hermione and put her down in
front of the class. That had to have had an impact on her and
when she did get up and leave the class that was Trelawney's
fault because of the way she treated Hermione. Although as I
said I do not believe that Trelawney saw it the way I and
Hermione did.



?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Feb  3 17:40:46 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:40:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iieha4+hgm3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <598607.62054.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190032

Shelley wrote:
<snip>
> Someone else brought up the romantic set up of Lavender and Ron,
and I think that is correct also. The initial reaction of Lavender
and Ron makes sense- they are both from Wizarding families, so they
automatically understand each other in so many ways because of their
cultural similiarities. Ron's conflict with Hermione I think also
comes from difference in their upbringing, and I think that is why
many readers might have paired Harry with Hermione.

Carol responds:
One slight problem with this reasoning: Don't we learn somewhere
that Lavender is Muggle-born? For one thing, a baby rabbit seems
like an unusual pet for a kid from a Wizarding family. They usually
have cats, owls, or toads (judging from the letter Harry receives
from the school in SS/PS).


June:
What the person Shelley is talking about said (not exact wording)
was that when Ron made his statement about Hermione not caring
about anyone's pets that Lavender saw that as sticking up for her
and that is probably when she first looked at him as a possible
future boyfriend. I totally agree with that. I don't think it had
anything to do with both of them being from wizarding families.
In fact (and I will have to check on this when I have a moment) I
think Carol is correct that Lavender comes from a muggle family.
Ron's conflict with Hermione in my opinion is just simply Ron
trying to fight the fact that he is falling for her in the later
books and in earlier books she was constantly nagging him.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Feb  3 18:01:50 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:01:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <4D49A95C.8000004@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <373879.48546.qm@web113908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Shelley:
> I agree! I think we have the prospective as readers of following
Harry and Hermione of being from a Muggle society when they entered
into this Wizarding World. They spot easily the superstition and
lack of logic that comes with that lack of questioning how magic
works because Wizards aren't used to analyzing magic- for Wizards,
magic just works, and that's all they need to know. So they don't
question divination or prophesies, because to them, that's just one
(valid?) magical ability. <snip> So also Hermione's reaction is
seen as insensitive because if she were a proper Witch, she would
have just accepted Trelawney as normal for this society. Instead
she doesn't accept those gifts as real, and it causes a cultural
clash with Lavender, because the two girls don't see where each
other is coming from. I think it's a clash that would have happened
anyway, even if this scene hadn't been coupled with the rabbit
dying. <snip> <


June:
The only thing wrong with the thought of Hermione not being
brought up in the wizarding world so she doesn't?believe Trelawney
to be the real thing is that most the staff doesn't believe her to
be the real thing either. McGonagall and Umbridge who are both
pure bloods didn't believe in her. McGonagall found her to be
annoying when she stated up at Christmas time with her "when 13
dine" routine and even Dumbledore only hired her because of the
prophecy to protect her.












From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  4 19:07:06 2011
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 19:07:06 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iieha4+hgm3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iihioq+mana@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190034






--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> One slight problem with this reasoning: Don't we learn somewhere that Lavender is Muggle-born? 

zanooda:

I don't think Lavender is Muggle-born (they wouldn't have let her come to Hogwarts in her 7th year if she was), but she does seem to be brought up by Muggles. For example, she, together with Harry and Dean, was puzzled when the Grim was mentioned, while all the wizard kids knew what it was right away. I suppose Lavender is a half-blood, but for some reason she lived with her Muggle parent(mother) before Hogwarts, just like Dean.




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb  4 22:03:49 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 22:03:49 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iihioq+mana@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iiht45+frc4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190035

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:

>Carol: 
> > One slight problem with this reasoning: Don't we learn somewhere that Lavender is Muggle-born? 

zanooda:
 
> I don't think Lavender is Muggle-born (they wouldn't have let her come to Hogwarts in her 7th year if she was), 

Geoff:
Hang on - am I losing the plot here? Surely Hermione is Muggle-born and 
she had planned to come back to the Upper Sixth.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  5 00:21:32 2011
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 00:21:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iiht45+frc4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iii56c+q8eo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190036



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2@> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> 
> >Carol: 
> > > One slight problem with this reasoning: Don't we learn somewhere that Lavender is Muggle-born? 
> 
> zanooda:
>  
> > I don't think Lavender is Muggle-born (they wouldn't have let her come to Hogwarts in her 7th year if she was), 
> 
> Geoff:
> Hang on - am I losing the plot here? Surely Hermione is Muggle-born and 
> she had planned to come back to the Upper Sixth.
>

Annemehr:
I think Zanooda is referring to after LV took over, and they confiscated all the Muggleborn's wands.  That would seem to imply that they wouldn't let Muggleborn students back into Hogwarts either.

But didn't we see they actually were allowed back, and they helped fight LV with the other students? (Sorry, my book isn't accessible just now.)

Maybe it's one last Flint. ;)





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  5 02:07:11 2011
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 02:07:11 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iii56c+q8eo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iiibcf+e0j9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190037






--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:

> I think Zanooda is referring to after LV took over, and they confiscated all the Muggleborn's wands.  That would seem to imply that they wouldn't let Muggleborn students back into Hogwarts either.

zanooda:

The students had to prove to the Ministry that they were of wizard descent to be allowed to attend Hogwarts - we find out about it in "The Bribe" chapter.


> But didn't we see they actually were allowed back, and they helped fight LV with the other students? 

zanooda:

JKR said that Colin Creevey was not at Hogwarts that year, he just sneaked in to fight. But Lavender was already there, hiding in the RoR with everybody else, when the Trio arrived, which means she was allowed to attend. 





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb  4 19:55:40 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 11:55:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iihioq+mana@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <839700.68610.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190038

zanooda:

I don't think Lavender is Muggle-born (they wouldn't have let her come to Hogwarts in her 7th year if she was), but she does seem to be brought up by Muggles. For example, she, together with Harry and Dean, was puzzled when the Grim was mentioned, while all the wizard kids knew what it was right away. I suppose Lavender is a half-blood, but for some reason she lived with her Muggle parent(mother) before Hogwarts, just like Dean.

June:
I looked it up and Lavender is a pure blood witch, however I do have to disagree with what you said about muggle borns not being allowed to go to Hogwarts in their seventh year. I believe that muggle borns do finish at Hogwarts like everyone else. Harry's mum did and after the battle at Hogwarts Hermione went back to finish her 7th year.










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  5 03:08:41 2011
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 03:08:41 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <839700.68610.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <iiievp+h4fj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190039






--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:

> I do have to disagree with what you said about muggle borns not being allowed to go to Hogwarts in their seventh year.

zanooda:

I didn't say that Muggle-borns were not allowed to go to Hogwarts in their 7th year :-). I said that Lavender couldn't go to Hogwarts in *her* 7th year, because that year the Ministry was taken over by LV and the DEs, and Muggle-borns were forbidden to attend. Sorry if I was unclear, I see you are already the second person who misunderstood :-). 




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  5 03:24:19 2011
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 03:24:19 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iiievp+h4fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iiift3+9fsl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190040



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
 
> Lavender couldn't go to Hogwarts in *her* 7th year

zanooda:

Naturally, I meant to say that Lavender couldn't go, "if" she were Muggle-born :-). Her being at Hogwarts in DH shows that she is *not* Muggle-born. I hope I got it right this time, LOL.



 






From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Feb  5 03:14:38 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 19:14:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iii56c+q8eo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <277944.78517.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190041

Annemehr:
> I think Zanooda is referring to after LV took over, and they
confiscated all the Muggleborn's wands. That would seem to imply
that they wouldn't let Muggleborn students back into Hogwarts
either.

But didn't we see they actually were allowed back, and they helped
fight LV with the other students? (Sorry, my book isn't accessible
just now.)
>


June:
The muggle borns were at Hogwarts. Lavender herself was attacked
by Fenrir Grayback and Hermione and Trelawney saved her. They and a
bunch of other students were all hiding in the room of requirement
because they were looking for the muggle borns.







From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Feb  5 03:17:43 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 19:17:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iiibcf+e0j9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <461415.89797.qm@web113909.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190042


> I think Zanooda is referring to after LV took over, and they confiscated all the Muggleborn's wands. That would seem to imply that they wouldn't let Muggleborn students back into Hogwarts either.

zanooda:

The students had to prove to the Ministry that they were of wizard descent to be allowed to attend Hogwarts - we find out about it in "The Bribe" chapter.

> But didn't we see they actually were allowed back, and they helped fight LV with the other students?

zanooda:

JKR said that Colin Creevey was not at Hogwarts that year, he just sneaked in to fight. But Lavender was already there, hiding in the RoR with everybody else, when the Trio arrived, which means she was allowed to attend.

June:
yes that is right. I had forgotten I had already stated that Lavender was a pure blood (rolls eyes at self). They were hiding out because they had been coming up against the new Hogwarts staff and they let others in through the room of requirement with the help of Dumbledore's brother.



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Feb  5 18:57:56 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Feb 2011 18:57:56 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/6/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1296932276.9.82850.m7@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190043

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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Notes:
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb  6 17:55:15 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 6 Feb 2011 17:55:15 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/6/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1297014915.9.9054.m8@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190044

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 6, 2011
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

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7 pm UK



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From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Feb  9 02:33:50 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 02:33:50 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <373879.48546.qm@web113908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <iisuee+j08j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190045



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
>
> Shelley:
> > I agree! I think we have the prospective as readers of following
> Harry and Hermione of being from a Muggle society when they entered
> into this Wizarding World. They spot easily the superstition and
> lack of logic that comes with that lack of questioning how magic
> works because Wizards aren't used to analyzing magic- for Wizards,
> magic just works, and that's all they need to know. So they don't
> question divination or prophesies, because to them, that's just one
> (valid?) magical ability. <snip> So also Hermione's reaction is
> seen as insensitive because if she were a proper Witch, she would
> have just accepted Trelawney as normal for this society. Instead
> she doesn't accept those gifts as real, and it causes a cultural
> clash with Lavender, because the two girls don't see where each
> other is coming from. I think it's a clash that would have happened
> anyway, even if this scene hadn't been coupled with the rabbit
> dying. <snip> <
> 
> 
> June:
> The only thing wrong with the thought of Hermione not being
> brought up in the wizarding world so she doesn't?believe Trelawney
> to be the real thing is that most the staff doesn't believe her to
> be the real thing either. McGonagall and Umbridge who are both
> pure bloods didn't believe in her. McGonagall found her to be
> annoying when she stated up at Christmas time with her "when 13
> dine" routine and even Dumbledore only hired her because of the
> prophecy to protect her.
>
Nikkalmati

But the curse put on the original Trojan Cassandra (probably not Trelawney's grandmother) was that she would correctly predict the future, but that no one would believe her.  See the parallel?

Nikkalmati




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  9 19:11:06 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 19:11:06 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iisuee+j08j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iiuosa+745f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190046



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02@> wrote:
> >
> > Shelley:
> > > ....So also Hermione's reaction is seen as insensitive 
> > because if she were a proper Witch, she would have just 
> > accepted Trelawney as normal for this society. Instead
> > she doesn't accept those gifts as real,... <snip> <
> > 
> > 
> > June:
> > The only thing wrong with the thought of Hermione not...?
> > believe Trelawney to be the real thing is that most the 
> > staff doesn't believe her to be the real thing either. ...
> >
> Nikkalmati
> 
> But the curse put on the original Trojan Cassandra (probably 
> not Trelawney's grandmother) was that she would correctly 
> predict the future, but that no one would believe her.  See 
> the parallel?
> 
> Nikkalmati
>

Steve:

The Trojan aspect completely threw me for a second there until
I realize that 'Cassandra' is the name of a Trojan person who
warned the Trojans not to bring the Trojan Horse into their
compound. She had the gift of foresight, though it could have
just been common sense in that circumstance, but the curse of
never being believed. 

Back to Sibyll Trelawney, I suspect several things come into
play here. First, I don't think, subconsciously, even Sibyll
believes in her powers, or at least has doubts about them, but
being the granddaughter of the great Cassandra is the only thing
that makes Sibyll special. She certain is not gifted with 
intellect or other magical skill. But she seems to have a tiny
smattering of "the Gift". 

So, she tries to bluff her way through life by putting on this
mystical air that most of the students and teachers see through
right away. Illustrated, if you want people to think you are
smart, act smart, seem aloof, use big words, name drop various
philosophers and famous people that you know nothing about; if 
you want people to think you are a psychic, then act mystical, 
speak as if you understand the future, give great significances
to small meaningless superstitions. Seem to have great insight 
in the hope that people will believe you do. 

So, by trying to put on this affect of a great mystic, Sibyll
betrays herself. People, rather than thinking she is mystical,
think she is comical and can't take her seriously. Yet we 
know, as outside observers, that she does get things spookily
right, and has made several substantial and significant 
prophecies, as well as several minor ones.  

She is the real deal, but her own self-doubt, and the resulting
over-effort to counter that doubt, work against her. Being a
Mystic/Psychic is about the only talent Trelawney has, and it 
is about the only way she can earn a living. So this is important
to her. 

But again, her excess over-affectation is turned against her, 
and it actually confuses and confounds her ability to interpret
what she sees. She saw Harry's 'Grim' except it wasn't a Grim, 
sometimes a big dog is just a big dog. But she is so overly
eager to see significances in everything, that she goes too far
and as a result, no one takes her seriously.

As to Hermione, she certainly had a case to argue, but her 
insensitivity was not to argue that case, but to argue it at
that time and place. Her insensitivity was not based in a
belief that Trelawney was a fraud and a determination to prove 
it, or in her status as a muggle-born, but in simply not 
realizing that while Lavender was so emotional was not the time
for a reasoned and logical argument.

Just a few random thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn 




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Feb  9 21:07:25 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 14:07:25 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13:
 Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iiuosa+745f@eGroups.com>
References: <iiuosa+745f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D53020D.1090800@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190047

On 2/9/2011 12:11 PM, Steve wrote:
>
> As to Hermione, she certainly had a case to argue, but her
> insensitivity was not to argue that case, but to argue it at
> that time and place. Her insensitivity was not based in a
> belief that Trelawney was a fraud and a determination to prove
> it, or in her status as a muggle-born, but in simply not
> realizing that while Lavender was so emotional was not the time
> for a reasoned and logical argument.
>
> Just a few random thoughts.
>
> Steve/bboyminn

Steve, I agree 100% with your assessment of Trelawney, but not about 
Hermione picking the time and the place for the discussion with 
Lavender. "No time" would have been a good time, because is essentially 
all boiled down to believing in Trelawney or not, and I doubt that to 
the fan club of Trelawney ever even considered reason or logic when they 
decided to support her. I don't fault Hermione as "picking a bad moment" 
to speak her mind, because I don't think the result would have been any 
different, and if I understood the book right, it was Lavender who 
wanted to have that discussion to persuade Hermione, and not the other 
way around. I'll have to reread that part to be sure.

Shelley



From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Feb  9 09:51:11 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 01:51:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <iisuee+j08j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <29908.67950.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>






> June:
> The only thing wrong with the thought of Hermione not being
> brought up in the wizarding world so she doesn't?believe Trelawney
> to be the real thing is that most the staff doesn't believe her to
> be the real thing either. McGonagall and Umbridge who are both
> pure bloods didn't believe in her. McGonagall found her to be
> annoying when she stated up at Christmas time with her "when 13
> dine" routine and even Dumbledore only hired her because of the
> prophecy to protect her.
>
Nikkalmati:

But the curse put on the original Trojan Cassandra (probably not Trelawney's grandmother) was that she would correctly predict the future, but that no one would believe her. See the parallel?


June:
I do not remember that, what page is that mentioned on?









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Feb  9 22:22:46 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:22:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <4D53020D.1090800@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <961697.78575.qm@web113903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190049




Shelley:

Steve, I agree 100% with your assessment of Trelawney, but not about
Hermione picking the time and the place for the discussion with
Lavender. "No time" would have been a good time, because is essentially
all boiled down to believing in Trelawney or not, and I doubt that to
the fan club of Trelawney ever even considered reason or logic when they
decided to support her. I don't fault Hermione as "picking a bad moment"
to speak her mind, because I don't think the result would have been any
different, and if I understood the book right, it was Lavender who
wanted to have that discussion to persuade Hermione, and not the other
way around. I'll have to reread that part to be sure.


June:
That is some thing I will have to re read as well. I thought it was Hermione who started it but I could be wrong. I have read the book so many times but things do some times go over one's head LOL. I do agree though that no matter the situation people who are with Trelawney would not have agreed with Hermione but you can really understand Hermione's point in thinking her a fraud. Trelawney really made a big production out of every thing and then she was any thing but nice to Hermione. She verbally attacked Hermione in the first class and has anyone else noticed that a lot of her predictions are actually caused by her. The prediction that someone would leave then Hermione left. She probably wouldn't have left if it wasn't for the way Trelawney treated her then in that case the prediction would not have come true.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 10 07:19:18 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 07:19:18 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <29908.67950.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ij03hm+4elt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190050



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
...
> Nikkalmati:
> 
> But the curse put on the original Trojan Cassandra (probably not Trelawney's grandmother) was that she would correctly predict the future, but that no one would believe her. See the parallel?
> 
> 
> June:
> I do not remember that, what page is that mentioned on?
> 

Steve:

It is not in the HP books, it is just a secondary fact from general
history. 

A mention of it can be found in the HP-Lexicon, the encyclopedia of all knowledge "Potter", under Cassandra Trelawney -

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/a-z/t.html#Trelawney_Cassandra

And here in the "Encyclopedia Mythica" -

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/c/cassandra.html

Steve/bboyminn




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Feb 10 21:36:06 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 13:36:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <ij03hm+4elt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <192462.96426.qm@web113904.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190051

> Nikkalmati:
> But the curse put on the original Trojan Cassandra (probably not
Trelawney's grandmother) was that she would correctly predict the
future, but that no one would believe her. See the parallel?
>
> June: I do not remember that, what page is that mentioned on?
>
> Steve:
> It is not in the HP books, it is just a secondary fact from
> general history.
>
> A mention of it can be found in the HP-Lexicon, the encyclopedia
> of all knowledge "Potter", under Cassandra Trelawney -
> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/a-z/t.html#Trelawney_Cassandra
>
> And here in the "Encyclopedia Mythica" -
> http://www.pantheon.org/articles/c/cassandra.html


June:
I am sorry to point this out (and I supposed it won't be allowed
but I will try) but this is not about the character of Trelawney
from Harry Potter. This refers to the real life Cassandra from
the time of the trojan war. She had tried to warn her people
about the trojan horse which was sent in by the other side and
was filled with the enemy but because of a curse put upon her,
no one believed her and they let the horse in and were all killed.
Trelawney's great grandmother as we all know was named Cassandra
and from what I saw in the first article here her name came from
the trojan Cassandra but the curse was on the latter.











From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 10 23:22:57 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:22:57 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <192462.96426.qm@web113904.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ij1s0h+n6sv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190052

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:

Nikkalmati:
> > But the curse put on the original Trojan Cassandra (probably not
> Trelawney's grandmother) was that she would correctly predict the
> future, but that no one would believe her. See the parallel?

June: I do not remember that, what page is that mentioned on?

Steve:
> > It is not in the HP books, it is just a secondary fact from
> > general history.

<snip>

June:
> I am sorry to point this out (and I supposed it won't be allowed
> but I will try) but this is not about the character of Trelawney
> from Harry Potter. This refers to the real life Cassandra from
> the time of the trojan war. 

<snip>

> Trelawney's great grandmother as we all know was named Cassandra
> and from what I saw in the first article here her name came from
> the trojan Cassandra but the curse was on the latter.

Geoff:
Yes, I think that Nikkalmati made that point by suggesting that there 
was a parallel. Cassandra of Troy was not believed; Trelawney of
Hogwarts was equally not believed.

I think HP deliberately created Sybill's great-great-grandmother 
Cassandra just in order to prompt the memories of any readers with 
a smattering of classicalknowledge.






From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 11 00:00:22 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 00:00:22 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <ij1s0h+n6sv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ij1u6m+f0c8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190053



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:

Geoff:

> I think HP deliberately created Sybill's great-great-grandmother 
> Cassandra just in order to prompt the memories of any readers with 
> a smattering of classicalknowledge.

Geoff (later):
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear here.

What I meant was that *JKR* deliberately created...

I blame too much birthday cake.
:-|




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb 11 00:40:03 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 16:40:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <ij1u6m+f0c8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <705129.5818.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190054

> Geoff:
> I think HP deliberately created Sybill's great-great-grandmother
> Cassandra just in order to prompt the memories of any readers with
> a smattering of classicalknowledge.

> Geoff (later):
> Sorry, I didn't make myself clear here.
>
> What I meant was that *JKR* deliberately created...
>
> I blame too much birthday cake.
> :-|


June:
Oh, is it your birthday Geoff? Happy birthday then and I hope you
are saving some cake for the rest of us :P













From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb 11 15:57:59 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:57:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <4D53020D.1090800@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ij3ma7+6pjc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190055

Shelley:
 "No time" would have been a good time, because is essentially 
> all boiled down to believing in Trelawney or not, and I doubt that to 
> the fan club of Trelawney ever even considered reason or logic when they 
> decided to support her. I don't fault Hermione as "picking a bad moment" 
> to speak her mind, because I don't think the result would have been any 
> different, and if I understood the book right, it was Lavender who 
> wanted to have that discussion to persuade Hermione, and not the other 
> way around. I'll have to reread that part to be sure.
> 

Pippin:
I agree there would never be a time when Lavender would be more convinced by Hermione's argument. But there could have been a time when a  discussion of the prediction would have been less painful for Lavender. For instance, a time when Lavender wasn't around, or at least when her grief for her pet was not still fresh. 

You are right that Lavender introduced the subject of Trelawney's prediction. It doesn't follow that  she was signaling that the circumstances of Binky's death were no longer a painful topic for her, any more than Harry's desire to play Quidditch rather than talk about Sirius was a signal that Sirius's passing wasn't painful any more. 

Ron is of course wrong and cruel to suggest that people's pets don't matter to Hermione. She proves that by putting in a huge effort to save Buckbeak. But there is of course nothing to be done for Binky except to mourn him, and I don't think Hermione understands very much about that yet. She's heard, I think, that people who've suffered a loss need to talk about it, and she doesn't understand yet that this doesn't apply to everybody.  

So, as usual, Hermione thinks she's being helpful. She's been taught that if she's kind and considerate, people will want to be her friend, she thinks that's what she's doing, and she can't understand at all why it doesn't work for her.

The problem for me with the word "insensitive" is that it can mean morally or emotionally insensitive, and I don't think that applies to Hermione at all.

You might compare her actions here to the way she behaves when she first meets Harry. She starts chattering on  about his parents' role in history, not realizing that it's a difficult subject for him. 

Draco, on the other hand, really is what I would call insensitive, in the moral sense, but though there's no feeling at all behind his "sorry" when he learns that Harry's parents are dead, he immediately grasps that Harry doesn't want to talk about them, and this without even being able to see Harry's face.

Pippin









From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 11 17:23:14 2011
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 17:23:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <ij1s0h+n6sv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ij3ra2+6m21@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190056

> June:
> > I am sorry to point this out (and I supposed it won't be allowed but I will try) but this is not about the character of Trelawney from Harry Potter. This refers to the real life Cassandra from the time of the trojan war. 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > Trelawney's great grandmother as we all know was named Cassandra and from what I saw in the first article here her name came from the trojan Cassandra but the curse was on the latter.
> 
> Geoff:
> Yes, I think that Nikkalmati made that point by suggesting that there was a parallel. Cassandra of Troy was not believed; Trelawney of Hogwarts was equally not believed.
> 
> I think HP deliberately created Sybill's great-great-grandmother  Cassandra just in order to prompt the memories of any readers with a smattering of classical knowledge.
>
Carol responds:

Exactly. It's a literary technique called allusion. 

http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/general/glossary.htm

The author expects the reader to make the connection between Trelawney, via her grandmother Cassandra, and the mythical Cassandra. It's not an exact parallel, of course, but JKR chooses her names for a reason. (Remus Lupin is a good example; the astute reader should see a connection with wolves in his name but again, not an exact parallel.) Note that Sybil herself is named for the Sybils of ancient Rome, another connection with prophecy.

Carol, wondering what possessed some of the mothers in the HP books to give their children names like Fenrir and Alecto! (Joking, of course; it was JKR who named them for her own purposes)







From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 11 21:54:25 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 21:54:25 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <ij3ra2+6m21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ij4b6h+f3bj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190057

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol: 
> Exactly. It's a literary technique called allusion. 
 
> http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/general/glossary.htm
 
> The author expects the reader to make the connection between Trelawney, via her grandmother Cassandra, and the mythical Cassandra. It's not an exact parallel, of course, but JKR chooses her names for a reason. (Remus Lupin is a good example; the astute reader should see a connection with wolves in his name but again, not an exact parallel.) 

Geoff:
She was too darned clever for her own good on that one.
:-(

To me, lupin is a flower my father grew when I was a child. I
just don't link up with lupine wolf-like) in my tiny mind.






From miwahni at gmail.com  Sat Feb 12 03:43:24 2011
From: miwahni at gmail.com (miwahni)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:43:24 +1000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
References: <ij4b6h+f3bj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3F7878386162443A9818BEA4124FC61B@owner>

No: HPFGUIDX 190058

> Geoff:
> She was too darned clever for her own good on that one.
> :-(
>
> To me, lupin is a flower my father grew when I was a child. I
> just don't link up with lupine wolf-like) in my tiny mind.


  Miw:

and Remus in Roman mythology was one of two twin brothers who was 
suckled by a she-wolf. To me the name Remus Lupin absolutely screams 
of wolfish (wolverine?) connections. JKR knew exactly what she was 
doing here. :-)




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sat Feb 12 07:40:09 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 07:40:09 -0000
Subject: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
In-Reply-To: <3F7878386162443A9818BEA4124FC61B@owner>
Message-ID: <ij5dgp+fpkc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190059



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miwahni" <miwahni at ...> wrote:
>
> > Geoff:
> > She was too darned clever for her own good on that one.
> > :-(
> >
> > To me, lupin is a flower my father grew when I was a child. I
> > just don't link up with lupine wolf-like) in my tiny mind.
> 
> 
>   Miw:
> 
> and Remus in Roman mythology was one of two twin brothers who was 
> suckled by a she-wolf. To me the name Remus Lupin absolutely screams 
> of wolfish (wolverine?) connections. JKR knew exactly what she was 
> doing here. :-)

Geoff:
Yes. I took Ancient History as one of my GCEs way back and Romulus and 
Remus did jump out at me; after all Rome took its name from the first of 
the brothers because mythology says that they had a fight about it. 

My reaction on first reading the book before the werewolf connection was 
revealed was the apparent incongruity of  "lupin". We don't even use the 
form "lupine" in everyday UK English. We're more likely to describe someone 
or someone's behaviour as "Wolfish".




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Feb 12 18:58:18 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 12 Feb 2011 18:58:18 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/13/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1297537098.21.41435.m1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190060

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Feb 12 22:26:41 2011
From: ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk (Ffred Clegg)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 22:26:41 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 11199
In-Reply-To: <1297503497.681.34585.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1297503497.681.34585.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <139670.60458.qm@web24705.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190061

1.3. Re: CHAPT DISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindo...
? ? Posted by: "Geoff" geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com geoff_bannister
? ? Date: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:54 pm ((PST))

>Geoff:
>She was too darned clever for her own good on that one.
>:-(
>
>To me, lupin is a flower my father grew when I was a child. I
>just don't link up with lupine wolf-like) in my tiny mind.

The first thing that jumped into my mind was that it was a Monty Python 
reference (just as cockroach clusters are...)

Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore, riding through the glen

hwyl

Ffred


      



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 13 17:55:18 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Feb 2011 17:55:18 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/13/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1297619718.40.23931.m3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190062

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 13, 2011
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

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From cheri0427 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 12 15:58:45 2011
From: cheri0427 at yahoo.com (Cheryl)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:58:45 -0000
Subject: A Very Potter Musical
Message-ID: <ij6anl+fe83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190063


Hi everyone,

I had heard of this musical, but I just found it on YouTube a couple of
days ago and thought I'd share it with our group. I really loved it and
was wondering what other people think about it. I thought it was very
good for a by fans for fans musical. The songs were cute and clever and
some of them were truly beautiful like "You're Not Alone". I've
never been a huge Harry/Ginny fan but I feel in love with these
characters as they fell in love with each other, both actors are very
talented and they have great voices. Ron and Draco were very funny as
they argued how they were not in love with Hermione Granger. And then
the big surprise was Voldermort, I actually really liked him in this
musical.

So if you haven't seen it before I can really recommend it, and if you
have you know how good it is so see it again. Either way tell me what
you think.

Cheri0427

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmwM_AKeMCk&feature=list_related&playnext\
=1&list=SPC76BE906C9D83A3A
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmwM_AKeMCk&feature=list_related&playnex\
t=1&list=SPC76BE906C9D83A3A>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com  Sun Feb 13 21:41:17 2011
From: jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com (jeanine.banthorpe)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:41:17 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
Message-ID: <ij9j5t+pbsq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190064

This message is a Special Notice for all members of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post
is alsobeing delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message
Delivery" isset to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have
any questions,contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space):
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----------------------------------------------------------
CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
Sirius Black is inside Gryffindor Tower. Security is tightened within Hogwarts
but no guard is added to the hidden passageway via the statue of the one-eyed
witch, confirming its existence is not known to the staff. Ron becomes an
overnight celebrity, describing his confrontation with Black.

Neville receives a Howler from his grandmother for his carelessness with the
passwords. Harry and Ron are invited to tea with Hagrid, who wants to tell them
how upset Hermione is at the apparent loss of their friendship. He rebukes them
gently that they value broomsticks and rats more than friendship. They are
chastened to learn that despite her unhappiness, she has helped Hagrid with the
court case against Buckbeak.

On their return to Hogwarts, Hermione asks them not to go to Hogsmeade because
of the danger to Harry from the at-large Black. Later between themselves Harry
and Ron make plans to go, with Harry saying he will use his invisible cloak. The
next morning in Hogsmeade they visit the Post Office, and Zonko's, then wander
to the Shrieking Shack, where almost immediately they hear Malfoy, Crabbe and
Goyle approaching. Malfoy sees Ron and makes an insulting remark about the
Weasleys' lack of money. Harry decides to revenge Ron. Under cover of his
invisibility cloak he throws mud sludge and sticks at the trio and trips Crabbe.
As he trips, Crabbe catches the invisibility cloak and it is dragged from
Harry's head. Malfoy sees the disembodied head, yells and runs away. Ron tells
Harry top get back to Hogwarts quickly before Malfoy has a chance to tell anyone
what he saw.

Harry has just emerged from the statue into the corridor when Snape appears.
Snape tells Harry to go with him, and returns to his chambers. Snape asks Harry
why it is that Malfoy' saw Harry's head at the Shrieking Shack. Harry suggests
that Malfoy is hallucinating. Snape reminds Harry that everyone is trying to
protect Harry from Black, while Harry wilfully carries on doing whatever he
likes without considering the consequences. Snape goes on to make disparaging
remarks about Harry's father, to which Harry responds with anger and says that
Snape owes his life to Harry's father.

In reply Snape reveals that it was Harry's father who put Snape's life in danger
in the first place and that Harry's father was protecting himself as much as
Snape when he decided at the last minute not to go ahead with the prank. He
orders Harry to turn out his pockets and finds the Marauder's Map. He uses a
spell on the parchment to read its contents but instead the parchment insults
him.

Using Floo powder, Snape requests Lupin's help. As Lupin appears, Snape asks for
his opinion of the parchment. Lupin replies that it appears to be a childish
magical joke. At that moment Ron bursts in and says that he had bought various
stuff for Harry from Zonko's. Lupin then takes the map and asks Ron and Harry to
come with him, stating that he wants to talk to them about an essay.

Once they cannot be overheard, Lupin tells Harry that he was both selfish and
stupid to set his own wishes for fun against the efforts of the various people
who have tried and are trying to protect him, including Harry's own parents.
Lupin walks away, taking the Marauder's Map with him. Harry feels chastened. Ron
tells Harry that he shouldn't have encouraged Harry to go to Hogsmeade and that
they were stupid to do it.

They see Hermione approaching. Ron challenges her that she has come to gloat.
However she tells them that she thought they ought to know that Hagrid has
written to her to say that Buckbeak is to be executed.

Questions:
1. Was it fair that Sir Cadogan was sacked when all he did was to allow entry to
someone who had the passwords? Isn't that what passwords are for?
2. Were Harry and Ron extremely foolish and selfish not to reveal the hidden
passageway to Hogwart's staff, especially to Dumbledore?
3. Although Hagrid appears to be talking only of Hermione when he tells the boys
he would have expected that they would value friendship above broomsticks, (the
new Firebolt is what has interested them) is he also subtly suggesting that they
thought more of the Firebolt than of their friendship with him too ? in that
they have forgotten the threat to Buckbeak?
4. Even if he is not, what do you think of the boys' attitude to a good friend
when that friend`s need is forgotten or pushed out of mind by a mere new
possession?
5. What do you think of Harry's action in visiting Hogsmeade with Black on the
loose? Do you think that Harry reflects on the consequences of his actions of
that day?
6. Do you think Snape makes the remarks about Harry's father to goad him into
losing his cool and admitting where he has been?
7. Both Snape and Lupin tell Harry he is selfish in going to Hogsmeade when
everyone else is putting themselves out to ensure his safety. Why does Harry
resent hearing this from Snape but feels chastened when he hears it from Lupin?

Jeanine


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please
see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method
=reportRows&tbl=33
Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 15 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming
soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Goblet of Fire chapter
discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner
@yahoogroups.com (without the space).





From bart at moosewise.com  Mon Feb 14 00:42:06 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:42:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter
 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <ij9j5t+pbsq@eGroups.com>
References: <ij9j5t+pbsq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D587A5E.6030600@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190065

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> Questions:
> 1. Was it fair that Sir Cadogan was sacked when all he did was to allow entry to someone who had the passwords? Isn't that what passwords are for?

Bart:
Well, the question is how intelligent portraits are to begin with. 
Sirius was clearly neither student nor teacher, so theoretically Sir 
Cadogan should have been suspicious, password or no password. However, 
as he probably did not have this sort of judgment painted into him, he 
is not suited to be a guard of a dormitory. Sacking is fair and just.

Jeanine the elf:
> 2. Were Harry and Ron extremely foolish and selfish not to reveal the hidden
> passageway to Hogwart's staff, especially to Dumbledore?

Bart:
Well, yes; it could be used in the other direction. Of course, Lupin 
knew about it too, and didn't bother to report it, but we don't "know" 
that yet. Besides, I would be very surprised if DD did not know about 
the entrance, even at this point.

J the E:
> 3. Although Hagrid appears to be talking only of Hermione when he tells the boys he would have expected that they would value friendship above broomsticks, (the new Firebolt is what has interested them) is he also subtly suggesting that they thought more of the Firebolt than of their friendship with him too  in that they have forgotten the threat to Buckbeak?

Bart:
If Hagrid meant that, he would have said that. Or, at worst, hinted far 
more strongly.

J the E:
> 4. Even if he is not, what do you think of the boys' attitude to a good friend
> when that friend`s need is forgotten or pushed out of mind by a mere new
> possession?

Bart:
In Arlo Guthrie's song/story "Alice's Restaurant Massacree", after a 
number of events not involving Alice, he says, "And Alice... Remember 
Alice? (laughter) This SONG'S about Alice... (more laughter)". With the 
illusion of time passing, JKR has cleverly caused the READER (well most 
readers) to remember that THEY had forgotten about the promised work for 
Buckbeak, too. If you look at real time instead of story time, it is 
pretty incomprehensible that the boys would have forgotten all about it. 
I call it poetic license.

J the E:
> 5. What do you think of Harry's action in visiting Hogsmeade with Black on the
> loose? Do you think that Harry reflects on the consequences of his actions of
> that day?

Bart:
Harry is convinced of his own invulnerability. He did, after all, manage 
to duck a confrontation with Black. I don't think it is until after 
Lupin reveals his disappointment (see below) that it sinks in what a 
stupid thing he had done.

L the E:
> 6. Do you think Snape makes the remarks about Harry's father to goad him into
> losing his cool and admitting where he has been?

At the time? Yes. Having read the whole series? Well, there was 
something I had suspected from VERY early on in the series, and that was 
that Snape resented the fact that his own efforts in the first Mortywar 
were pretty much unappreciated, while Harry was lauded as THE hero, 
having pretty much done nothing but be there. Snape would look at Harry, 
and see James. From his point of view, Harry was an arrogant prick, and 
Snape was stuck with him. So, I believe that Snape was using his 
standard method of getting Harry sufficiently angry to do the right thing.

J the E:
> 7. Both Snape and Lupin tell Harry he is selfish in going to Hogsmeade when
> everyone else is putting themselves out to ensure his safety. Why does Harry
> resent hearing this from Snape but feels chastened when he hears it from Lupin?

Bart:
There is a compelling argument that is not part of formal logic called 
the "your own man argument". Its name comes from when children play 
games, and work in teams. If there is an argument about a play, and a 
member of one team who was on the scene argues in favor of the other 
team, that usually ends the argument in favor of the other team, then 
and there. If someone from the first team chooses to continue the 
argument, he is silenced by the statement, "Your own man says you're 
wrong." and there is generally no valid rejoinder to it. Essentially, a 
witness who stands to suffer more than s/he gains from his or her 
testimony is generally found to be more believable than one who will 
gain, or even one who is disinterested. In this case, Lupin is on 
Harry's team; when Snape, the opposition, says that Harry's wrong, 
that's just an argument, but when Lupin, Harry's "own man" says that 
Harry's wrong, then that ends any arguments then and there.

Bart




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Feb 14 00:43:47 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 00:43:47 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <ij9j5t+pbsq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ij9ts3+dhe6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190066





1. Was it fair that Sir Cadogan was sacked when all he did was to allow entry to
someone who had the passwords? Isn't that what passwords are for?
Potioncat:
The Dormitory passwords remind me so much of computer passwords?do they really protect anything? The portraits won't let a Gryffindor student into his common room just because he doesn't know the password, but they will allow a stranger in. OK, the Fat Lady won't, but then she won't let a student in either.

2. Were Harry and Ron extremely foolish and selfish not to reveal the hidden
passageway to Hogwart's staff, especially to Dumbledore?
Potioncat:
Yep. Lupin is even worse not to tell DD.

3. Although Hagrid appears to be talking only of Hermione when he tells the boys
he would have expected that they would value friendship above broomsticks, (the
new Firebolt is what has interested them) is he also subtly suggesting that they
thought more of the Firebolt than of their friendship with him too ? in that
they have forgotten the threat to Buckbeak?
Potioncat:
Hagrid seems sincere when he says he knows the boys have been too busy practicing to help him. I think he didn't even realize how it sounded. 

4. Even if he is not, what do you think of the boys' attitude to a good friend
when that friend`s need is forgotten or pushed out of mind by a mere new
possession?
Potioncat:
Given their age, and that Hagrid is an adult, I'd say it's typical.

5. What do you think of Harry's action in visiting Hogsmeade with Black on the
loose? Do you think that Harry reflects on the consequences of his actions of
that day?
Potioncat:
It was very foolish and again very typical of the teenaged-brain. Just like his father, isn't he?

6. Do you think Snape makes the remarks about Harry's father to goad him into
losing his cool and admitting where he has been?
Potioncat:
I think Harry has always reminded Snape of James. This year Black is in the news and on the minds of the Hogwarts staff; Lupin is on staff. I think Snape is in constant flashback about his years at Hogwarts. Now Harry has done something very dangerous and very like James and Snape just vents. There's a slight possibility that he's trying to Legilimens Harry, but I don't think so. 


7. Both Snape and Lupin tell Harry he is selfish in going to Hogsmeade when
everyone else is putting themselves out to ensure his safety. Why does Harry
resent hearing this from Snape but feels chastened when he hears it from Lupin?
Potioncat: 
Horrible isn't it? All Snape has ever wanted is the best for Harry and looks what it gets him---resentment and cheek. OK, I know that's not exactly true. Lupin and Snape had the same message, but delivered it in different ways. Lupin's comments had more of an impact.

Thanks, Jeanine, for interesting questions and summary.






From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Mon Feb 14 07:54:57 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 23:54:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Very Potter Musical
In-Reply-To: <ij6anl+fe83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <548798.86803.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190067

> Cheri:
> I had heard of this musical, but I just found it on YouTube a
> couple of days ago and thought I'd share it with our group. I
> really loved it and was wondering what other people think about
> it. <snip>


June:
A friend on Facebook had told me about this so I watched it. It is
hilarious.











From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Mon Feb 14 08:15:02 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 00:15:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <ij9j5t+pbsq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <132390.52394.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190068

Jeanine:
Questions:
1. Was it fair that Sir Cadogan was sacked when all he did was to
allow entry to someone who had the passwords? Isn't that what
passwords are for?

June:
When put in a position of guarding you still have to use your head.
If someone does not look like they belong even if they have the
passwords they should not be let in. Especially considering this
was a full grown man who was reading the passwords from a list and
was allowed in when he hit the right one. That should have brought
up red flags.

2. Were Harry and Ron extremely foolish and selfish not to reveal
the hidden passageway to Hogwart's staff, especially to Dumbledore?

June:
Yes they were. They should have told someone because at that time
everyone thought Black was evil. If he had come in there and
someone was hurt it would have been their fault.

3. Although Hagrid appears to be talking only of Hermione when he
tells the boys he would have expected that they would value
friendship above broomsticks, (the new Firebolt is what has
interested them) is he also subtly suggesting that they thought
more of the Firebolt than of their friendship with him too ? in
that they have forgotten the threat to Buckbeak?

June:
Very good point. It is quite possible that Hagrid was thinking of
himself as well.

4. Even if he is not, what do you think of the boys' attitude to a
good friend when that friend`s need is forgotten or pushed out of
mind by a mere new possession?

June:
It is wrong to forget about Hagrid like they did, however they were
only 13 and it is common for children to be distracted and it was
not deliberate on their part that they forgot Hagrid.

5. What do you think of Harry's action in visiting Hogsmeade with
Black on the loose?

June:
Very irresponsible and stupid, but just like someone their age to
not think of the possible repercussions.

Do you think that Harry reflects on the consequences of his actions
of that day?

June:
Probably, most people would.

6. Do you think Snape makes the remarks about Harry's father to
goad him into losing his cool and admitting where he has been?

June:
Oh sure he did.

7. Both Snape and Lupin tell Harry he is selfish in going to
Hogsmeade when everyone else is putting themselves out to ensure
his safety. Why does Harry resent hearing this from Snape but
feels chastened when he hears it from Lupin?

June:
It is because he hears nothing but negativities from Snape and
doesn't like Snape so anything he hears from Snape he takes as a
put down rather than trying to help/teach him. Where he respects
and likes Lupin so when Lupin say's it he feels ashamed of himself
for disappointing someone he respects so much.

Please note that my answers are my own opinion for which everyone
is entitled to their opinions. If you do not agree with me that is
ok but please do not gripe at me for having my opinion.



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 14 15:52:21 2011
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:52:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <ij9j5t+pbsq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ijbj3l+urh0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190069

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
> Sirius Black is inside Gryffindor Tower. Security is tightened within Hogwarts but no guard is added to the hidden passageway via the statue of the one-eyed witch, confirming its existence is not known to the staff. Ron becomes an overnight celebrity, describing his confrontation with Black. <snip>

Carol responds:
One faculty member knows about it and remains silent: Lupin. Later, he confesses knowing that Black was an Animagus, but, IIRC, he never admits that he knows anything about secret passages--even though he believes, like DD and Snape, that Harry's life is in danger.

> Questions:
<snip>
> 2. Were Harry and Ron extremely foolish and selfish not to reveal the hidden passageway to Hogwart's staff, especially to Dumbledore?

Carol responds:
Probably, but it's typical for them not to reveal what they know to adults, in this case because the revelation of the map would get the Twins in trouble. The one who ought to have revealed his knowledge was Lupin. Instead, he seems to think that watching the map himself (when he's alone and in human form) will be sufficient.

Carol, who thinks that Lupin is a coward and would have been partially responsible if Sirius Black really had tried to kill Harry (or Ron)





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Mon Feb 14 17:47:00 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:47:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <ijbj3l+urh0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <825403.56272.qm@web113901.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190070

> Questions:
<snip>
> 2. Were Harry and Ron extremely foolish and selfish not to reveal the hidden passageway to Hogwart's staff, especially to Dumbledore?

> Carol responds:
Probably, but it's typical for them not to reveal what they know to adults, in this case because the revelation of the map would get the Twins in trouble. The one who ought to have revealed his knowledge was Lupin. Instead, he seems to think that watching the map himself (when
> he's alone and in human form) will be sufficient.


June:
Funny I have read this book so many times but had forgotten this. Carol is right, Lupin should have told Dumbledore about the map and even taken it to him when he had gotten possession of it.







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 14 22:03:14 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 22:03:14 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <ij9j5t+pbsq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ijc8r2+9o7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190071



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeanine.banthorpe" <jeanine.banthorpe at ...> wrote:
>
>> Questions:

> 3. Although Hagrid appears to be talking only of Hermione when he tells the boys
> he would have expected that they would value friendship above broomsticks, (the
> new Firebolt is what has interested them) is he also subtly suggesting that they
> thought more of the Firebolt than of their friendship with him too ? in that
> they have forgotten the threat to Buckbeak?
> 4. Even if he is not, what do you think of the boys' attitude to a good friend
> when that friend`s need is forgotten or pushed out of mind by a mere new
> possession?

Alla:

I don't think that friend's need was forgotten by simply a new possession. I think Harry had so much to deal with that forgetting Buckbeak, while not admirable, was at least understandable to me, IMO of course.


> 5. What do you think of Harry's action in visiting Hogsmeade with Black on the
> loose? Do you think that Harry reflects on the consequences of his actions of
> that day?

Alla:

It was a foolish thing to do. I am not sure what consequences though, you mean possible consequences? I think he does, a little bit, after Lupin's lecture.


> 6. Do you think Snape makes the remarks about Harry's father to goad him into
> losing his cool and admitting where he has been?

Alla:

No, I think he makes the remarks because he hated James' guts and hated Harry by extension, IMO of course.

> 7. Both Snape and Lupin tell Harry he is selfish in going to Hogsmeade when
> everyone else is putting themselves out to ensure his safety. Why does Harry
> resent hearing this from Snape but feels chastened when he hears it from Lupin?
> 
> 

Alla:

Because I think Lupin knows how to deal with Harry and Snape had no clue whatsoever :)

Thanks for the questions Janine.




From jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 15 11:54:32 2011
From: jeanine.banthorpe at btinternet.com (jeanine5715)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:54:32 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <4D587A5E.6030600@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <ijdpho+5808@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190072


Jeanine:
Bart, thank you for all your comments.
<<snip>>
4. I call it poetic license.
Yes hadn't thought of that way thank you

>> Bart: <<snip>>
7. > There is a compelling argument that is not part of formal logic called > the "your own man argument".

Thank you for introducing me to this concept. It's very interesting in its own right.




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 16 20:24:31 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 20:24:31 -0000
Subject: CHAPTDISC: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <ij9j5t+pbsq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ijhbpv+pesm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190073

Questions:

1.) Was it fair that Sir Cadogan was sacked when all he did was to allow entry to someone who had the passwords? Isn't that what passwords are for?

Steve:

We all know Sir Cadogan is an idiot. I suspect if the Fat Lady had been on duty, it would have been far more difficult for Sirius Black to get in. She had already had one encounter with him in which she refused him entrance. 

I don't think any one wanted Sir Cadogan on the job, nor do I think anyone trusted him, but given what happened to the Fat Lady previously, he was the only one who would take the job. 


2.) Were Harry and Ron extremely foolish and selfish not to reveal the hidden passageway to Hogwart's staff, especially to Dumbledore?

Steve:

No, I think they were just kids doing what kids do. The Hidden Passage was just to sweet to give up. It allowed Harry the freedom to do what he felt he was being unfairly restricted from doing.

Which is pretty much the mantra that drives kids - "It's not Fair!". 


3.) Although Hagrid appears to be talking only of Hermione when he tells the boys he would have expected that they would value friendship above broomsticks, ... is he also subtly suggesting that they thought more of the Firebolt than of their friendship with him too ? in that they have forgotten the threat to Buckbeak?

Steve:

I found this a very tender and touching moment in the story. I think Harry justifiable did have plenty of things to distract him. But at the same time, they were being mean to a Hermione and ignoring Hagrid and Buckbeak's problem. 

On the other hand, Hargid leans pretty heavily on these kids, and makes demands of them no reasonably adult ever would. Remember Norbert the Dragon? Is a dragon really a problem for kids to solve. 

None the less, Harry and Ron, both have a fondness for Hagrid and for Buckbeak, and they did make a promise to help. I think their priorities were off, and Hagrid put them back on the right track. 

Also, Hagrid is not the most educated person. He certainly does need help with law, and with his presentation, which as we see went disastrously. 


4.) Even if he is not, what do you think of the boys' attitude to a good friend when that friend`s need is forgotten or pushed out of mind by a mere new possession?

Steve:

Again, there is an element of kids being kids here. And they could have rejoiced in the arrival of the broom and still helped Hargrid. But I think their thoughts of Hargrid went right out the window with their anger toward Hermione. She is the on that keeps them organized and focused. Without here, they are free to be "Boys". 


5.) What do you think of Harry's action in visiting Hogsmeade with Black on the loose? Do you think that Harry reflects on the consequences of his actions of that day?

Steve:

Staying in is not what kids do. And they are not likely to want to obey adults when they feel the adults are being unfair. And, they also tend to rationalize. They have a path of logic that lead to the conclusion that they want. Harry wanted to go to Hogwarts, he found a path of logic that justified it. But then, that is what kids do.

As much as I hate to say it, what we are seeing is 'boys being boys'. 

As to Harry now looking back and reflecting on his actions, I suspect he does; don't we all? But in the moment, using 'kid logic', I think he felt he was both safe and justified.


6.) Do you think Snape makes the remarks about Harry's father to goad him into losing his cool and admitting where he has been?

Steve:

Of course. I think Snape has done this several times to Harry. I think in their every encounter Harry is burning to tell Snape off. And all Snape has to do, it punch Harry's buttons, and Harry will lose his cool, and say something that will cost him dearly. 

So, while I think Snape takes some joy in telling Harry off, and deriding Harry's father. I also think that on many occassion, Snape uses this in a calculating way to manipulate Harry into revealing something he doesn't want to reveal, or to simply goad him into getting a detention. 

I think Snape's hatred and low opinon of James is real, but I also think Snape is wise enough to use that to his advantage when circumstances call for it. And he does so, sometimes with good intentions and sometimes with bad intentions. 

 
7.) Both Snape and Lupin tell Harry he is selfish in going to Hogsmeade when everyone else is putting themselves out to ensure his safety. Why does Harry resent hearing this from Snape but feels chastened when he hears it from Lupin?

Steve:

The very presents of Snape sets Harry's blood boiling. And I think to some extent the same is true of Snape. They simple do not trust or respect each other. 

However, Harry does trust and respect Lupin, and Lupin, more than anything, calms Harry. So, Harry is far more open to what Lupin is telling him than what Snape is telling him. He is going to resist any statement by Snape, just on general principle.

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 17 07:17:40 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 07:17:40 -0000
Subject: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
Message-ID: <ijii2k+cq6k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190074

This is more of a side note. In my recent comment about Chapt 14, currently under discussion, I commented regarding Harry's behavior with what amounted to "Boys will be boys.

I actually think this is one of the reasons why Harry (and others) are so endearing to us. We see in Harry, the same mistake we made ourselves. We see life reflected in the mirror of Harry. 

Harry is not perfect, and I hate characters that are. Flawed, but trying characters are much more interesting. 

When Harry goes to Hogsmeade, I'm right there will him, caught up in his flawed kid logic. When he chooses not to tell, I'm with him, again so deeply into his character, that his logic makes sense.

And when he is berated and bullied by Snape, I'm as furious as Harry. 

And when Harry is chastised by Lupin, I feel just as ashamed as he does. 

And that is one of the very great things about JKR's writing, she pulls you so deeply into her world, that you live it right along with the characters. If they are sad, you are sad. If they are furious, you are furious. And if the feel ashamed, your recognize that shame from the life you've lived yourself. 

When we consider how lifelike JKR's world and characters are, we need only look at the fan art and fan fiction, whose massive volume overwhelms any other Genre. 

Kids who would never consider writing, are writing Harry Potter fan fiction. Kids who were only moderately interested in art, have illustrated virtually every significant scene in the books, and far more in the world of fan fiction, or from the world of their own imagination. 

JKR lights your imagination on fire, and you live the lives of these character right along with them. It is really a very fascinating phenomenon. One that the world is very unlikely to see again. 

Just a few random thoughts about boys who will be boys, that the boys (and girls) who will read about them.

Steve/bboyminn




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Thu Feb 17 16:42:14 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 09:42:14 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14
 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ijii2k+cq6k@eGroups.com>
References: <ijii2k+cq6k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D5D4FE6.30000@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190075

On 2/17/2011 12:17 AM, Steve wrote:
> This is more of a side note. In my recent comment about Chapt 14, currently under discussion, I commented regarding Harry's behavior with what amounted to "Boys will be boys.
>
> I actually think this is one of the reasons why Harry (and others) are so endearing to us. We see in Harry, the same mistake we made ourselves. We see life reflected in the mirror of Harry.
>
> Harry is not perfect, and I hate characters that are. Flawed, but trying characters are much more interesting.
>
> When Harry goes to Hogsmeade, I'm right there will him, caught up in his flawed kid logic. When he chooses not to tell, I'm with him, again so deeply into his character, that his logic makes sense.
>
> And when he is berated and bullied by Snape, I'm as furious as Harry.
>
> And when Harry is chastised by Lupin, I feel just as ashamed as he does.
>
> And that is one of the very great things about JKR's writing, she pulls you so deeply into her world, that you live it right along with the characters. If they are sad, you are sad. If they are furious, you are furious. And if the feel ashamed, your recognize that shame from the life you've lived yourself.
>
> When we consider how lifelike JKR's world and characters are, we need only look at the fan art and fan fiction, whose massive volume overwhelms any other Genre.
>
> Kids who would never consider writing, are writing Harry Potter fan fiction. Kids who were only moderately interested in art, have illustrated virtually every significant scene in the books, and far more in the world of fan fiction, or from the world of their own imagination.
>
> JKR lights your imagination on fire, and you live the lives of these character right along with them. It is really a very fascinating phenomenon. One that the world is very unlikely to see again.
>
> Just a few random thoughts about boys who will be boys, that the boys (and girls) who will read about them.
>
> Steve/bboyminn
Shelley now:
Steve, I think you are spot-on with all your observations, and I too, 
felt the world through Harry's eyes in the emotion and feeling of it 
all- the joys, the shame, the injustices. JKR did a wonderful job with 
this series, and particularly in this chapter, we believe this 
characters are alive and we identify with them.

There is one thing about Lupin's lecture to Harry that I find 
disturbing- it's that everyone of power and position expects Harry to 
make the wise and correct decisions without full information. They know 
Harry had been living with the Dursleys, they know he's been apart from 
the Wizarding World, they know he hasn't been told much at all about his 
parents. Those with the knowledge to help Harry don't bother to fill him 
in, and I found myself, not the first time reading the books but 
certainly the 2nd and 3rd times, irritated with Lupin. He knows 
Voldemort, he knows what the Potters were like and what they did, and he 
knows Sirius. But, he doesn't bother filling in Harry on what he missed, 
on what he can't possibly know about what happened to his parents. I 
think if Harry knew more, then some of his decisions might have been 
slightly different, more cautious perhaps. Harry's given a chance to do 
something "fun" and liberating" via the twins, and he rightfully jumps 
at it. People are sheltering him "too much" and it's only right that he 
make the effort to go explore the world for himself. I applauded Harry 
for it! I think if he hadn't been sheltered, then maybe he wouldn't have 
had such a desire to go join the other kids for a day of fun.

Shelley



From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Thu Feb 17 17:16:04 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:16:04 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter
 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <ij9ts3+dhe6@eGroups.com>
References: <ij9ts3+dhe6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D5D57D4.80109@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190076


> 2. Were Harry and Ron extremely foolish and selfish not to reveal the hidden
> passageway to Hogwart's staff, especially to Dumbledore?
> Potioncat:
> Yep. Lupin is even worse not to tell DD.

Shelley:
I don't like the way this question is worded, because it's slanted to 
lead you to a conclusion- that the action WAS extremely foolish and 
stupid. In reality, they were guarding a treasure- one they had just 
discovered and then didn't want to be taken away before they get to play 
with it properly. It's like Harry's broom that gets stolen from him 
immediately before he gets the chance to test it out- it's that same 
sort of injustice. The question here is whether they were right to guard 
that treasure, or should they have been willing to give it up at great 
sacrifice to themselves. As kids, I think they are very real in that 
they don't want to give it up, and simply say nothing about it. It was 
an action a kid would do!

Dumbledore, on the other hand, KNOWS that there are mysteries about the 
castle that haven't been fully explored- his fine bathroom in the middle 
of the night when he needed one the most, for one, since he can't seem 
to find it again. He's asking a student to fill him in on another oddity 
that he himself hadn't discovered yet, when he should have figured those 
extra entrances and exits out when Harry's parents were still attending 
school and he knew they were up to something at night.

The kids weren't extremely foolish, nor were they selfish, per se, they 
were just being kids and wanted the chance to use what they had found 
before having it taken away from them permanently. They may have 
intended to tell Dumbledore eventually, but I think he knew they weren't 
being 100% forthcoming, and he was ok with that. He's not mean like 
Snape who would have openly accused them of lying- instead he seems to 
understand why they are just being kids, and adjusts for it.

Now we come to Lupin, who is a teacher, and has a duty and obligation to 
protect ALL of the students- if they as students knew about this secret 
exit, then it's likely that Voldemort did too, and that is far more 
troubling that he didn't tell Dumbledore than the kids not telling. The 
focus in this book is the threat from Sirius, but in reality, Voldemort 
should have been the larger concern for Lupin to come clean with Dumbledore.
> 7. Both Snape and Lupin tell Harry he is selfish in going to Hogsmeade when
> everyone else is putting themselves out to ensure his safety. Why does Harry
> resent hearing this from Snape but feels chastened when he hears it from Lupin?
Shelley:
Snape never came off as Harry's friend. He's always "above" Harry, he's 
always trying to belittle Harry and put him in his place. He could tell 
the truth to Harry about it being for his own good, and it would get 
rejected as Snape trying to control him again. This is one case where 
Snape's hard nose attitude toward Harry backfires on him. Lupin, on the 
other hand, has some sympathy for Harry, and his sensitivity shows 
through. It's this relationship difference that makes Harry want to 
listen to Lupin, because Harry feels that Lupin will listen back when 
Harry wants to talk. An open door makes all the difference in the world 
to a kid that is hurting, as Harry is being an orphan at a time when 
everyone keeps reminding him that his parents were killed.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Feb 17 19:30:38 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 19:30:38 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <ij9j5t+pbsq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ijjt0u+mt9l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190077

> 
> Questions:
> 1. Was it fair that Sir Cadogan was sacked when all he did was to allow entry to
> someone who had the passwords? Isn't that what passwords are for?

Pippin:
  Perhaps he was magically required to permit  entry to someone who had the passwords, but he could still have sounded an alarm. I think the Fat Lady would have.  Even the headmaster portraits don't seem to be capable of changing their attitudes or learning new skills, so it's not like he could have improved on the job. I don't think there was much choice.


> 2. Were Harry and Ron extremely foolish and selfish not to reveal the hidden
> passageway to Hogwart's staff, especially to Dumbledore?

Pippin:
Judged as adults, certainly. But that only points out, very gently, that selfish and foolish behavior is normal and expected where kids are concerned, and adults need to be wise and generous enough to take that into account. 

I disagree with the idea that Dumbledore could have easily discovered  the passage. Harry thinks to himself in DH that Dumbledore never found the Room of Hidden Things because he never had any guilty secrets to hide. 

That's not true, we know. Dumbledore had his guilty secrets like everyone else.

 But he didn't have them for fun. He wasn't part of the great confraternity of Hogwarts mischief makers, and Hogwarts has its secrets known only to them.  Harry after all did not discover how to operate the witch from first principles and not even Snape could manage to do so (if he had, he wouldn't have left the cloak lying there.) I don't think that Dumbledore could either. 

Only a prankster's mind would conceive of going to such elaborate lengths to break into a candy store, after all. 

> 3. Although Hagrid appears to be talking only of Hermione when he tells the boys
> he would have expected that they would value friendship above broomsticks, (the
> new Firebolt is what has interested them) is he also subtly suggesting that they
> thought more of the Firebolt than of their friendship with him too ? in that
> they have forgotten the threat to Buckbeak?
> 4. Even if he is not, what do you think of the boys' attitude to a good friend
> when that friend`s need is forgotten or pushed out of mind by a mere new
> possession?

Pippin:
There's a part of Hagrid that sees  Harry as someone to protect, and there's another part, IMO, that's completely enthralled with the legend of The Boy Who Lived. That part of Hagrid unconsciously sees Harry as a superhero and believes there's nothing he can't do and nothing that could really hurt him. And of course Harry, anxious to live up to his reputation and not really understanding, in this strange new world, what his limitations are, is generally willing to take on whatever preposterous task Hagrid thinks he is capable of doing. 

I think this is one of the moments where Hagrid gets a reality check -- his hero is a little boy who does think more about broomsticks and rats (and putting an interfering Hermione in her place) than he does about Hagrid's concerns for either Hermione or Buckbeak.


> 5. What do you think of Harry's action in visiting Hogsmeade with Black on the
> loose? Do you think that Harry reflects on the consequences of his actions of
> that day?

Pippin:
I think canon makes the point that too much reflection is as bad as too little. Acknowledging that you did wrong is supremely important, reflecting on it further is not.  It will not make you a better person, any more than dwelling on what a rotten Quidditch player he was made Ron a better player. It only leads to despair, as in Ron's case, or to making excuses as Lupin is always doing. 

Harry knows he did the wrong thing, and decides that even trying to retrieve the cloak from the witch would be too dangerous. Ironically he lets  his fear of Snape accomplish what his fear of Sirius could not. 

> 6. Do you think Snape makes the remarks about Harry's father to goad him into
> losing his cool and admitting where he has been?

Pippin:
It's very funny. Harry thinks Snape is slandering his father and is more or less right about Harry himself, when the truth is opposite. I think Snape has been itching all along to tell Harry just why it is so objectionable to be  like James and finally sees the opportunity.

> 7. Both Snape and Lupin tell Harry he is selfish in going to Hogsmeade when
> everyone else is putting themselves out to ensure his safety. Why does Harry
> resent hearing this from Snape but feels chastened when he hears it from Lupin?
> 

Pippin:
It's much easier to accept criticism from someone with whom you have a positive relationship. Harry sees Lupin as wanting to help him, while Snape is just a nasty teacher who's trying to spoil his fun.

Pippin
who has the flu and hopes this makes sense




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Feb 17 20:18:21 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:18:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <4D5D4FE6.30000@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <448142.82099.qm@web113901.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190078


> Shelley now:
> <snip> There is one thing about Lupin's lecture to Harry that I
find disturbing- it's that everyone of power and position expects
Harry to make the wise and correct decisions without full
information. They know Harry had been living with the Dursleys,
they know he's been apart from the Wizarding World, they know he
hasn't been told much at all about his parents. Those with the
knowledge to help Harry don't bother to fill him in, and I found
myself, not the first time reading the books but certainly the
2nd and 3rd times, irritated with Lupin. He knows Voldemort, he
knows what the Potters were like and what they did, and he knows
Sirius. But, he doesn't bother filling in Harry on what he missed,
on what he can't possibly know about what happened to his parents.
I think if Harry knew more, then some of his decisions might have
> been slightly different, more cautious perhaps. <snip>


June:
Funny Shelley that you should point all this out because I have
often felt that way when reading the books. I know I myself won't
do something without knowing why I am doing it. If you tell me go
there or do that my first response is "Why" why am I to do this?
Why should I not go there when everyone else is? It is human
nature to want and need answers. I always thought everyone in all
the books should have told Harry more long before they did but I
guess that if they had then we would have been told too much too
soon. The idea of any entertainment is to leave the audience
wanting more so they will come back and J.K. Rowling is very good
at that.











From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 19 18:57:39 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 18:57:39 -0000
Subject: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <448142.82099.qm@web113901.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ijp3r3+npa6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190079

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Shelley now:
> > <snip> There is one thing about Lupin's lecture to Harry that I
> find disturbing- it's that everyone of power and position expects
> Harry to make the wise and correct decisions without full
> information. ... <snip>
> 
> 
> June:
> Funny Shelley that you should point all this out because I have
> often felt that way when reading the books. ...
> Why should I not go there when everyone else is? It is human
> nature to want and need answers. I always thought everyone in all
> the books should have told Harry more long before they did but I
> guess that if they had then we would have been told too much too
> soon. ...
>


Steve:

But in all honesty, isn't it also human nature to NOT explain things to kids? To simply expect them to obey without explanation?

The answer to a kid's "Why?" is very frequently "Because I said so."

I do agree Harry should have been told more and sooner, but at the same time, I think the adults treated him the way most adults always treat kids. 

And much like a typical Kids, Harry complains that no one ever bothers to tell him anything. Just obey, and don't tax your tiny little brain. He feels the same frustration that real kids feel when adults unwisely keep them out of the loop. 

Again, this conflict between the nature of adults and the nature of kids make Harry very endearing, because his frustration is a frustration we've all felt as kids.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Feb 19 18:58:19 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 19 Feb 2011 18:58:19 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/20/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1298141899.53.4500.m3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190080

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Sun Feb 20 00:10:14 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:10:14 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt
 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ijp3r3+npa6@eGroups.com>
References: <ijp3r3+npa6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D605BE6.7080706@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190081


> Steve:
>
> But in all honesty, isn't it also human nature to NOT explain things to kids? To simply expect them to obey without explanation?
>
> The answer to a kid's "Why?" is very frequently "Because I said so."
>
> I do agree Harry should have been told more and sooner, but at the same time, I think the adults treated him the way most adults always treat kids.
>
> And much like a typical Kids, Harry complains that no one ever bothers to tell him anything. Just obey, and don't tax your tiny little brain. He feels the same frustration that real kids feel when adults unwisely keep them out of the loop.
>
> Again, this conflict between the nature of adults and the nature of kids make Harry very endearing, because his frustration is a frustration we've all felt as kids.
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> Steve/bboyminn
Yeah, and no. I can see the wisdom of telling the kids "Your dad lost 
his job and we won't have money to do a lot of things" but neglect to 
tell them you don't know how to pay for groceries next week or that the 
house they are living it is in danger of being foreclosed on. I can see 
telling the kids that you aren't getting along so well with the other 
spouse and need a break, but not telling them you have visited the 
divorce lawyer and have actively been talking about how to screw the 
other person over in the proceedings that will come.

But for Harry, he didn't even know how his parents died until Hagrid 
came along! He had no pictures of them, didn't know what they looked 
like, knew nothing of their lives. Personally, if I was very good 
friends of someone, and they died, I wouldn't be so tight lipped about 
who they were around their only surviving child. One way to keep the 
memory of my friend alive would be to share all my memories with that 
child. It would keep that dead friend alive for both of us. Hagrid 
shares only a tiny amount, but no one else does, and that bothered me 
about the series. It's not trivial details that that the adults don't 
fill Harry in on, it's the basics: your parents were Wizards, they 
fought Voldemort, your Dad was a Quidditch player, your Mom was 
brilliant in school- we were all very proud of your parents and you 
should be too. That's my irritation with Lupin- he's denying Harry a 
sense of identity of who he is, and in doing so, he's almost denying 
that he was good friends with both Lilly and James. Harry's starving to 
know where he comes from; the Mirror of Erosed should have been the clue 
for Dumbledore, and yet he doesn't give Harry the means to know about 
his parents. Surely Dumbledore could have pointed him to the school's 
records of awards and trophies, so that Harry had a place to begin to 
figure out who he was. At yet, then, everyone acts like Harry should 
"honor the name of the great Lilly and James", when he's been denied 
even knowing why he should. It's a much bigger "OOPS" than the normal 
"don't tell the kids everything", and "let us adults handle it."

Shelley



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 20 05:16:28 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 05:16:28 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <4D605BE6.7080706@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ijq83c+2i14@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190082



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shelley <k12listmomma at ...> wrote:
<SNIP>
That's my irritation with Lupin- he's denying Harry a
sense of identity of who he is, and in doing so, he's almost denying
that he was good friends with both Lilly and James. Harry's starving to
know where he comes from; the Mirror of Erosed should have been the clue
for Dumbledore, and yet he doesn't give Harry the means to know about
his parents. Surely Dumbledore could have pointed him to the school's
records of awards and trophies, so that Harry had a place to begin to
figure out who he was. At yet, then, everyone acts like Harry should
"honor the name of the great Lilly and James", when he's been denied
even knowing why he should. It's a much bigger "OOPS" than the normal
"don't tell the kids everything", and "let us adults handle it."

Alla:

Shelley, I did not know what to snip from your wonderful post so I cut it rather arbitrarily since I completely agree with every word of it anyway, but the question I have for you is whether you agree with my answer :)

I mean the answer to it always had been rather obvious to me, Harry was indeed being denied by Lupin, Dumbledore and pretty much everything else around him the sense of who he is, but to me it was simply being done for surprise value. That readers were supposed to uncover secrets of Harry's past as the series were coming along. Now do I agree with it? Oh my goodness of course I don't. I think it was cruel and horrible and most importantly unnecessary if you are looking at the story from within. I mean, I do not want to get into  whether Dumbledore was right or wrong to tell Harry about explosive stuff, prophecy and all, we are just talking here about who his parents were. I mean, not to tell him all of what you listed makes no sense to me except the author waved her hand and wanted readers to learn it later.

JMO,

Alla





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 20 07:38:21 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 07:38:21 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - Tranfer, or not, of Information.
In-Reply-To: <ijq83c+2i14@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ijqgdd+okfe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190083

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shelley <k12listmomma@> wrote:
> <SNIP>
> That's my irritation with Lupin- he's denying Harry a sense of identity of who he is, and in doing so, he's almost denying that he was good friends with both Lilly and James. Harry's starving to know where he comes from; ...."
> 
> Alla:
> 
> ...
> 
> I mean the answer to it always had been rather obvious to me, ... it was simply being done for surprise value.... Now do I agree with it? Oh my goodness of course I don't. I think it was cruel and horrible and most importantly unnecessary if you are looking at the story from within. ... I mean, not to tell him all of what you listed makes no sense to me except the author waved her hand and wanted readers to learn it later.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla

Steve:

While I agree to a certain extent, I'm not as sure that it is as simple as that. 

Take Lupin for example, I'm sure, like Sirius, he feels a degree of personal guilt for what happened. Plus, he doesn't really know Harry. Yes, he knows who Harry is, but for 11 long years and more, he has had no personal contact with him. 

I think most would leave it up to Harry to take the lead, rather than force information on him that he might not want to hear. Now, he might want to hear it, but you don't know. 

When Lupin or anyone else speaks of Harry's parents, Harry luxuriates in the feelings of that knowledge, but he rarely to never asks for it, and he rarely to never gets it. He does savor it, but he doesn't go chasing it.

That was one of the very positive things about Sirius and Lupin, they knew both his parent, one could say, intimately. And Harry takes joy in knowing that resources is there, but does he ever pursue the resource, does he ever tap it? I don't think so. If he does it is rare. 

However, I think that is somewhat human too. I think in his mind Harry felt they would have years to explore these details. So, he took heart in knowing the resource existed and was there for him, but never to rarely availed himself of that. 

I think a degree of this is the natural separation of kids and adults. To some extent, they live in separate isolated worlds. Harry may not have wanted to bother 'the adults' with is childish questions. Harry may have felt that perhaps, his parents were a sensitive subject for the adults, and not known how to broach the subject. 

I think people underestimate the divide that exists between adults and kids, and especially kids and adults that seem to have some type of authority. 

You can blame them for not telling, but you also have to blame Harry for not asking. 

Now, in some sense, Harry does not really have that much casual access to any of the adults. They are teachers, for the most part, and they are not the type of people that a kid will engage in casual conversation. There is a degree of formality forced on them by their respective positions. 

I don't deny that the author manipulated the plot to control the release of information, but within the plot I can understand why information did not transfer as easily as we would have liked. 

Steve/bboyminn





From kat7555 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 20 15:39:29 2011
From: kat7555 at yahoo.com (kathy)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:39:29 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - Tranfer, or not, of Information.
In-Reply-To: <ijqgdd+okfe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ijrcjh+fa9t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190084

Shelley wrote:
> > <SNIP> That's my irritation with Lupin- he's denying Harry a sense
of identity of who he is, and in doing so, he's almost denying that he
was good friends with both Lilly and James. Harry's starving to know
where he comes from; ...."
>
> Steve:
> <snip> Take Lupin for example, I'm sure, like Sirius, he feels a
degree of personal guilt for what happened. <snip> I think most would
leave it up to Harry to take the lead, rather than force information
on him that he might not want to hear. <snip>
> You can blame them for not telling, but you also have to blame Harry
for not asking.


Kathy:
I don't blame Lupin for not telling Harry about his friendship with
his parents. I do blame Dumbledore for his role in Harry's lack of
information. He sent Harry to live with Vernon Dursley who is a bigot
and Petunia who was jealous of her sister's abilities. They were never
going to tell the truth about who he really was. They weren't going to
comfort him when Harry grieved over the loss of the parents he never
knew. Harry did ask for information and they lied so why would he
bother asking again? Harry really doesn't know who he can trust to
tell him the truth so he keeps quiet.

Kathy




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 20 17:55:23 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Feb 2011 17:55:23 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/20/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1298224523.9.47156.m4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190085

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Feb 20 19:26:28 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 19:26:28 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ijq83c+2i14@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ijrpt4+3a7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190086

 >
> Alla:
> 
> I mean the answer to it always had been rather obvious to me, Harry was indeed being denied by Lupin, Dumbledore and pretty much everything else around him the sense of who he is, but to me it was simply being done for surprise value. That readers were supposed to uncover secrets of Harry's past as the series were coming along.

Potioncat:
Well, first from inside the story.

 I'm not sure what DD understood about Harry's need. Harry was?at first?just another boy. I men, DD knew Harry was the chosen one, but he was no more attached to him than to any other student. I don't think he really knew how isolated Harry had been from his family history. 

Hagrid told Harry about his parents early on, and arranged to get photos for Harry from friends of James and Lily. (Please tell me this isn't movie contamination).  Given all the time Harry would spend with Hagrid, he could have asked for more information.  Of course, given Harry's background, questions about family do not come easily.
Lupin is something of a puzzle?he keeps very close and when asked, was very vague about even knowing Black. I think he had his own agenda for staying quiet.

So-throughout the series- who did talk about James and Lily; who gave Harry information about his family?  Working from memory I come up with Snape, Black, (Black&Lupin, but I don't remember if Lupin ever did on his own), Moody, Hagrid, DD, Petunia. Can anyone remember any one else? I'll add Hermione via her own research (again, this could be from TMTMNBN). Of these few, who gave Harry the most information? Who gave him the most accurate information? <eg>

Alla:
 Now do I agree with it? Oh my goodness of course I don't. I think it was cruel and horrible and most importantly unnecessary if you are looking at the story from within. I mean, I do not want to get into  whether Dumbledore was right or wrong to tell Harry about explosive stuff, prophecy and all, we are just talking here about who his parents were. I mean, not to tell him all of what you listed makes no sense to me except the author waved her hand and wanted readers to learn it later.

Potioncat:
And now, from outside, as a reader.
Well, yes, JKR did want Harry and the reader to learn things slowly, but it didn't strike me as odd as I was reading the books. Even now I'm trying to think how such a conversation would fit into the story. Because, let's face it, in a novel everything has to move the plot along or has to develop the characters.  The times there is conversation about James or Lily, the conversation fits the plot.  Can you tell me how such a scene may have played out? The most I can imagine is if Hagrid's photo album had included letters from friends-of-the-Potters that Harry read without actually telling the reader what was in the letter.

Thanks for bringing this up?something new to discuss as we re-review the books.





From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Sun Feb 20 20:06:17 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 13:06:17 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of
 "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ijq83c+2i14@eGroups.com>
References: <ijq83c+2i14@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D617439.3030406@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190087

On 2/19/2011 10:16 PM, dumbledore11214 wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shelley<k12listmomma at ...>  wrote:
> <SNIP>
> That's my irritation with Lupin- he's denying Harry a
> sense of identity of who he is, and in doing so, he's almost denying
> that he was good friends with both Lilly and James. Harry's starving to
> know where he comes from; the Mirror of Erosed should have been the clue
> for Dumbledore, and yet he doesn't give Harry the means to know about
> his parents. Surely Dumbledore could have pointed him to the school's
> records of awards and trophies, so that Harry had a place to begin to
> figure out who he was. At yet, then, everyone acts like Harry should
> "honor the name of the great Lilly and James", when he's been denied
> even knowing why he should. It's a much bigger "OOPS" than the normal
> "don't tell the kids everything", and "let us adults handle it."
>
> Alla:
>
> Shelley, I did not know what to snip from your wonderful post so I cut it rather arbitrarily since I completely agree with every word of it anyway, but the question I have for you is whether you agree with my answer :)
>
> I mean the answer to it always had been rather obvious to me, Harry was indeed being denied by Lupin, Dumbledore and pretty much everything else around him the sense of who he is, but to me it was simply being done for surprise value. That readers were supposed to uncover secrets of Harry's past as the series were coming along. Now do I agree with it? Oh my goodness of course I don't. I think it was cruel and horrible and most importantly unnecessary if you are looking at the story from within. I mean, I do not want to get into  whether Dumbledore was right or wrong to tell Harry about explosive stuff, prophecy and all, we are just talking here about who his parents were. I mean, not to tell him all of what you listed makes no sense to me except the author waved her hand and wanted readers to learn it later.
>
> JMO,
>
> Alla
Alla,
Yes, I agree with you. It is literary value that the main character has 
to learn of things that haven't been revealed earlier. Of that, I think 
Rowling goes a bit too far when it comes to Harry's parents. I don't 
know whether that was on purpose because she didn't want to bring in 
Harry's parents too soon, or it was on purpose to leave Harry the 
"forever orphan" with no family at all just so we sympathize with him more.

I don't think it would have spoiled the story at all to have someone 
give Harry a small photobook of his parents earlier in the series, and 
have him take a brief scene looking at his mom and dad having fun at 
school, looking happy on their wedding day, etc.

Shelley



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Feb 20 22:10:15 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:10:15 -0000
Subject: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <4D605BE6.7080706@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ijs3g7+ome6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190088

Shelley:
> 
> But for Harry, he didn't even know how his parents died until Hagrid 
> came along! He had no pictures of them, didn't know what they looked 
> like, knew nothing of their lives. Personally, if I was very good 
> friends of someone, and they died, I wouldn't be so tight lipped about 
> who they were around their only surviving child. One way to keep the 
> memory of my friend alive would be to share all my memories with that 
> child. It would keep that dead friend alive for both of us. Hagrid 
> shares only a tiny amount, but no one else does, and that bothered me 
> about the series. 

Pippin:
Who was left to do it? Most of James and Lily's friends were dead, or worse. Lupin probably felt he didn't belong in Harry's life for the same reason he didn't think he belonged in Teddy's. 

But Harry knew  about the school trophy room and all about the fact that his parents were mentioned in history books,  from his very first days at Hogwarts, and actively resisted seeking information about them, as well as from Mad-eye later on. It's partly that he's embarrassed to know so little, but also that he doesn't like letting his feelings about them show. He never asks Hagrid to identify any of the other people in the photo book or even asks who the friends were who supplied the photos.  You know if he had gone after information about James and Lily the way he'd tried to find out about, say, The Chamber of Secrets, or the secret of the trapdoor, there was loads more available. 

Pippin





From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Feb 20 22:29:46 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:29:46 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - Tranfer, or not, of Information.
In-Reply-To: <ijrcjh+fa9t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ijs4kq+7gou@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190089

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kathy" <kat7555 at ...> wrote:

Kathy:
> I don't blame Lupin for not telling Harry about his friendship with
> his parents. I do blame Dumbledore for his role in Harry's lack of
> information. He sent Harry to live with Vernon Dursley who is a bigot
> and Petunia who was jealous of her sister's abilities. They were never
> going to tell the truth about who he really was. They weren't going to
> comfort him when Harry grieved over the loss of the parents he never
> knew. Harry did ask for information and they lied so why would he
> bother asking again? Harry really doesn't know who he can trust to
> tell him the truth so he keeps quiet.

Geoff:
To a large extent I agree with you, but there is another angle to Harry
keeping quiet in addition to not trusting folk:

'The only thing Harry liked about his own appearance was a very thin
scar on his forehead which was shaped like a bolt of lightning. He had 
had it as long as he could remember and the first question he could ever 
remember asking his Aunt Petunia was how he had got it.

"In the car crash where your parents died." she had said. "And don't ask
questions."

Don't ask questions - that was the first rule for a quiet life with the 
Dursleys.' 
(PS "The Vanishing Glass" p.20 UK edition)

Silence = peace, what Harry might consider a semblance of peace. He 
has endured nearly eleven years of this sort of put-down. Is it surprising 
that "silence is golden" is branded into his psyche?






From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 21 05:17:37 2011
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 05:17:37 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - Tranfer, or not, of Information.
In-Reply-To: <ijqgdd+okfe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ijsshh+j4ff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190090

> Steve:
> 
> While I agree to a certain extent, I'm not as sure that it is as simple as that. 
> 
> Take Lupin for example, I'm sure, like Sirius, he feels a degree of personal guilt for what happened. Plus, he doesn't really know Harry. Yes, he knows who Harry is, but for 11 long years and more, he has had no personal contact with him. 
> 
> I think most would leave it up to Harry to take the lead, rather than force information on him that he might not want to hear. Now, he might want to hear it, but you don't know. 

Joey:

Agreed. Moreover, I also thought Lupin being a werewolf might have made him refrain from getting too close to Harry. He might have feared rejection or harming Harry or both.
 
> Steve:
> When Lupin or anyone else speaks of Harry's parents, Harry luxuriates in the feelings of that knowledge, but he rarely to never asks for it, and he rarely to never gets it. He does savor it, but he doesn't go chasing it.
> That was one of the very positive things about Sirius and Lupin, they knew both his parent, one could say, intimately. And Harry takes joy in knowing that resources is there, but does he ever pursue the resource, does he ever tap it? I don't think so. If he does it is rare. 

[snip]

> I think a degree of this is the natural separation of kids and adults. To some extent, they live in separate isolated worlds. Harry may not have wanted to bother 'the adults' with is childish questions. Harry may have felt that perhaps, his parents were a sensitive subject for the adults, and not known how to broach the subject. 

Joey:

Well, that could be because Lupin was Professor Lupin for Harry at that time and not good old Remus. I guess it would be tough for Harry to go to a professor and open up the topic of his dead parents, however friendly Lupin might seem. Also, almost the entire WW seem to know something about James and Lily as their deaths lead to the downfall of LV. So, I think it would be difficult for Harry to distinguish between a person who really knew them for what they were and a person who knew them just the way many of them did. Harry is quite different in OoTP and HBP where he asks Remus many questions about James as, I think, he is comfortable with Lupin now and also, confident that Remus can be trusted to provide first-hand information.

JMO,
Cheers,
~Joey :-)
 





From lynde at post.com  Mon Feb 21 21:55:29 2011
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 16:55:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys
 will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ijq83c+2i14@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CDA02930451AF8-D50-9006@web-mmc-m06.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190092



Lynda: Obviously, Alla, what you say is right, but I have a major contention here. It was Rowling's right to compose the story in the way she saw fit, just as it is the right of every author to compose their stories in the way they wish. Obviously, seven books later and with the eighth movie nearly out the gate, it worked for her. Very well. And really, I've read many stories written in a very similar formula. It's called digging for the clues and thinking things out, and also, and this is very important, joining the author for the ride, the story that someone else is telling. I know a lot of people on this forum take issue with this idea, but it's true and it's part of reading, or even listening to a story teller or even watching movies or tv. We let others tell their stories to us. We always have the option of not reading, listening or watching, but it's their story and we join them as they tell it.

Lynda







I mean the answer to it always had been rather obvious to me, Harry was indeed being denied by Lupin, Dumbledore and pretty much everything else around him the sense of who he is, but to me it was simply being done for surprise value. That readers were supposed to uncover secrets of Harry's past as the series were coming along. Now do I agree with it? Oh my goodness of course I don't. I think it was cruel and horrible and most importantly unnecessary if you are looking at the story from within. I mean, I do not want to get into whether Dumbledore was right or wrong to tell Harry about explosive stuff, prophecy and all, we are just talking here about who his parents were. I mean, not to tell him all of what you listed makes no sense to me except the author waved her hand and wanted readers to learn it later.

JMO,

Alla







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fenneyml at gmail.com  Mon Feb 21 14:23:33 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:23:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secrets of Harry's past - Tranfer, or not, of Information.
In-Reply-To: <ijsshh+j4ff@eGroups.com>
References: <ijqgdd+okfe@eGroups.com>
	<ijsshh+j4ff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik-=0cc2bSCL1eVt6tvoxdu2dCXJEvHd-Eidtm1@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190093

> > Steve:
> > While I agree to a certain extent, I'm not as sure that it is as simple
> as that.
> >
> > Take Lupin for example, I'm sure, like Sirius, he feels a degree of
> personal guilt for what happened. Plus, he doesn't really know Harry. Yes,
> he knows who Harry is, but for 11 long years and more, he has had no
> personal contact with him.
> >
> > I think most would leave it up to Harry to take the lead, rather than
> force information on him that he might not want to hear. Now, he might want
> to hear it, but you don't know.


Margie:

I'll comment on this subject since I have had practical experience.  My
mother died when I was 13 and in the 39 years since then, only two people
have mentioned her to me and only one has voluntarily told me stories about
her.  Most people are not comfortable talking about someone who has died
with one of their loved ones at least until they get to know the person
pretty well.

Even though I was 13 and not an infant as Harry was, I didn't "know" my
mother as a person by any means and I did wonder about her.  I didn't ask
adults about her even later in life for a lot of reasons.  It isn't an easy
subject to bring up and most of the time, when I was around someone who knew
her well, there were lots of other people around.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 22 15:40:10 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 15:40:10 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <8CDA02930451AF8-D50-9006@web-mmc-m06.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <ik0lcq+m9a7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190094







Shelley:
<SNIP>
I don't think it would have spoiled the story at all to have someone
give Harry a small photo book of his parents earlier in the series, and
have him take a brief scene looking at his mom and dad having fun at
school, looking happy on their wedding day, etc.

Alla:

Agreed.


Pippin:
Who was left to do it? Most of James and Lily's friends were dead, or worse.
Lupin probably felt he didn't belong in Harry's life for the same reason he
didn't think he belonged in Teddy's.

Alla:

Lupin is alive however and I am sure he (or JKR for him) can come up with many legit  justifications for not doing it, my point is I am not ready to buy them.

And of course there is Dumbledore, who could have I don't know, call Harry to his office and give him the photo book and tell him a little about his parents, without talking about major spoilers in the story.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
But Harry knew about the school trophy room and all about the fact that his
parents were mentioned in history books, from his very first days at Hogwarts,
and actively resisted seeking information about them, as well as from Mad-eye
later on. It's partly that he's embarrassed to know so little, but also that he
doesn't like letting his feelings about them show. He never asks Hagrid to
identify any of the other people in the photo book or even asks who the friends
were who supplied the photos. You know if he had gone after information about
James and Lily the way he'd tried to find out about, say, The Chamber of
Secrets, or the secret of the trapdoor, there was loads more available.

Alla:

I am not talking about Harry's motivations here for not asking questions, I think it is actually quite well established why he does not ask questions, Dudleys beat (metaphorically ) it out of him quite well. I think however it is also quite well established that while he is not going after information, he is very very "hungry" to eat the scraps that he gets, so whether he is asking questions or not, I still think they could have told him some stuff.

Geoff:
<SNIP>
Silence = peace, what Harry might consider a semblance of peace. He
has endured nearly eleven years of this sort of put-down. Is it surprising
that "silence is golden" is branded into his psyche?

Alla:

Definitely not surprising, I completely agree with you as I wrote to Pippin, see I think Harry's silence is established quite well as part of his character, it is Dumbledore et all silence that bugs me, not Harry's.


Lynda:
 Obviously, Alla, what you say is right, but I have a major contention
here. It was Rowling's right to compose the story in the way she saw fit, just
as it is the right of every author to compose their stories in the way they
wish. Obviously, seven books later and with the eighth movie nearly out the
gate, it worked for her. Very well. And really, I've read many stories written
in a very similar formula. It's called digging for the clues and thinking things
out, and also, and this is very important, joining the author for the ride, the
story that someone else is telling. I know a lot of people on this forum take
issue with this idea, but it's true and it's part of reading, or even listening
to a story teller or even watching movies or tv. We let others tell their
stories to us. We always have the option of not reading, listening or watching,
but it's their story and we join them as they tell it.

Alla:

Where did I say that it is not Rowling's right to tell the story how she sees fit? It is also my right to tell what I feel about the story and artistic decisions the writer makes. Obviously if I am still here in this group almost ten years later I find plenty to like in the series and want to talk about it, but I do not have to like everything in the books. While being swept in the characters' journey and loosing ourselves in the book is certainly part of the fun, I also like looking at the stories with the critical eye.

JMO,
Alla




From fenneyml at gmail.com  Tue Feb 22 16:08:34 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:08:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of
 "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ik0lcq+m9a7@eGroups.com>
References: <8CDA02930451AF8-D50-9006@web-mmc-m06.sysops.aol.com>
	<ik0lcq+m9a7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimPbg0yQ3NA5ZPXH5=157J-bHEcgnHeZCPFZrK-@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190095

> Shelley:
> <SNIP>
> I don't think it would have spoiled the story at all to have someone
> give Harry a small photo book of his parents earlier in the series, and
> have him take a brief scene looking at his mom and dad having fun at
> school, looking happy on their wedding day, etc.
>
> Alla:
> Agreed.


Margie:

On page 304 of Sorcerer's Stone (US paperback), Hagrid gives Harry a photo
book and says "Sent owls off ter all yer parents' old school friends, askin'
fer photos...knew yeh didn' have any...d'yeh like it?"  I don't see how it
could have been given to him much earlier in the series given that owls
needed to be sent, pictures need to be found and sent back from multiple
people, etc.

Also, one thing that I think people are missing here is that the characters
don't know everything that we know.  Dumbledore does not know from the
beginning that Harry was told that his parents were killed in an accident
and that he was not to talk about them at the Dursleys.  None of these
characters know what Harry has been or has not been told by the Dursleys or
by anyone else.  The typical assumption is that the Dursleys, being family,
probably told Harry a lot about his parents and most adults don't get a
clear view of the Dursleys until late in the series.


Margie






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 22 17:23:24 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 17:23:24 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimPbg0yQ3NA5ZPXH5=157J-bHEcgnHeZCPFZrK-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ik0rec+ioio@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190096



> Margie:
> 
> On page 304 of Sorcerer's Stone (US paperback), Hagrid gives Harry a photo
> book and says "Sent owls off ter all yer parents' old school friends, askin'
> fer photos...knew yeh didn' have any...d'yeh like it?"  I don't see how it
> could have been given to him much earlier in the series given that owls
> needed to be sent, pictures need to be found and sent back from multiple
> people, etc.

Alla:

Maybe owls could have been sent out couple years before? And after Dumbledore's multiple lies and many people (including Hagrid) omitting things, to be honest I am not sure that this is exactly how it occurred. Although since it is pretty much uncontradicted canon I guess I have to believe it, but again, way too many times Harry had been deceived, so I do not know.

Margie:
> Also, one thing that I think people are missing here is that the characters
> don't know everything that we know.  Dumbledore does not know from the
> beginning that Harry was told that his parents were killed in an accident
> and that he was not to talk about them at the Dursleys.  None of these
> characters know what Harry has been or has not been told by the Dursleys or
> by anyone else.  The typical assumption is that the Dursleys, being family,
> probably told Harry a lot about his parents and most adults don't get a
> clear view of the Dursleys until late in the series.

Alla:

Actually in OOP Dumbledore also tells Harry that I had been watching you more closely than you could have imagined, so there is a view to which I personally subscribe for quite some time now that Dumbledore knew pretty well what was happening in Dursleys household pretty much in very great detail. Of course the reader who holds such view (me) would not like Dumbledore much because that would mean that he is responsible for a great deal of cruelty in Harry's life, but I had been feeling this way for quite some time now.

So, yes I think he knew what Dursleys did to Harry, told Harry or not told Harry because he was watching him by unspecified magical tools and since he says it in OOP, I do not think he refers to Arabella either.

JMO,

Alla




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 22 18:55:05 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 18:55:05 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - Who Told Who What and When? ... and Why?
In-Reply-To: <ik0rec+ioio@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik10q9+330n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190097


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > Margie:
> > 
> > On page 304 of Sorcerer's Stone (US paperback), Hagrid gives
> > Harry a photo book and says "Sent owls off ter all yer 
> > parents' old school friends, askin' fer photos...
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Maybe owls could have been sent out couple years before? ...
> 
> Margie:
> > Also, one thing that I think people are missing here is that
> > the characters don't know everything that we know.  ...
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Actually in OOP Dumbledore also tells Harry that I had been watching you more closely than you could have imagined, ...
> 
> So, yes I think he knew what Dursleys did to Harry,... I do 
> not think he refers to Arabella either.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>

Steve:

Why don't you think he refers to Arabella Figg? She is someone
who observed Harry daily from the neighborhood, and occasionally
had person contact with him. Yet, while observing Harry daily
and seeing that he is not being well treated, she doesn't know
the intimate details of what go on in the Dursely household.
Certainly she can closely guess. But it is not about knowing
in general, it is about knowing in detail.

I think Dumbledore thought is wise and best to not introduce
Harry into the wizarding world too soon. Harry is something
of a hero, and it would be unwise to raise Harry with such
constant adulation. Dumbledore, by his own admission, thought
it best to raise Harry out of the limelight until the time was
right for him to re-enter the wizard world.

Also, at the Dursely's, Harry is protected from Voldemort and
the Death Eaters. Since there have been mulitple attempts to
kill Harry since he entered the wizard world, Dumbledore
was probably right to keep Harry isolated. 

However, we can not blame Dumbledore for the Dursley's failings.
What the Dursley's allowed, what they did and didn't do, what 
they did and didn't say, falls on them. 

Now, reasonably, we all wish Harry's life had been better, we
wish he had known more and sooner. But don't we all, to some
extent, wish that about our own lives? That we had made better
choices, done better things, paid more attention to what we
now know is important. 

Harry has lead a hard life, sometimes a cruel life, but we all,
to some extent, take the life we are given, take the cards as 
they are dealt to us. 

Of course, we wish Harry's life had been better. Of course, we
wish Dumbledore had intervened sooner. I've made that argument
countless times in the past. Of course, we wish Harry had known
more and had taken more comfort in that knowledge. But how could
that happen without Dumbledore tipping his hand? How could he 
reveal these secrets without putting Harry in danger; without
drawing unnecessary attention to Harry?

I think we all share your sentiment, but I think most of us, 
whether we agree or not, understand how and why things happened
within the framework and context of the story. 

Did Dumbledore always make the right and best decision? Well,
have you always made the right and best decision in your life?
I doubt it, though not casing any doubt on your character, but
we all make mistakes ... that's why they call it 'life'.

Steve/bboyminn 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb 22 19:21:53 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 19:21:53 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ik0lcq+m9a7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik12ch+msku@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190098

 
> Alla:
> 
> Lupin is alive however and I am sure he (or JKR for him) can come up with many legit  justifications for not doing it, my point is I am not ready to buy them.
> 
> And of course there is Dumbledore, who could have I don't know, call Harry to his office and give him the photo book and tell him a little about his parents, without talking about major spoilers in the story.
> 

Pippin:

Do you not buy Lupin's fear and rejection of his own wife and son? Because I think that's a very moving part of the story and it finally gives us the reasons for his ambivalence with Harry -- and with Sirius and James, too. I mean, he must have known, back in the day, that Sirius suspected him of being the spy, but he never had it out with him. If my  best friend thought I was a murdering traitor, I'd have something to say about it, you know? But I'm not Lupin. 

Dumbledore does tell Harry  things about his parents, for example that the cloak belonged  to James and he used it to steal food from the kitchens, that he once saved Snape's life, that Lily died to save Harry and her love is with Harry always, part of his very skin, and that James is also still a part of him. I do not recall that he ever refused to answer any questions Harry had about them or even steered the conversation away. When Harry has an opportunity to ask him questions, it's generally Voldemort he wants to know about, first, last and always. 

Also, there were things besides the prophecy that Dumbledore didn't think Harry was ready to know, or that would have impinged on other's secrets. He obviously wouldn't have wanted to tell Harry that James was the leader of a gang of bullies and troublemakers or that Lily and Snape had been so close. But it would have been difficult and scarcely honest to have a detailed conversation about James and Lily's times at Hogwarts and leave that out. Which goes for Hagrid also.

Harry tries to hide his tears when Dumbledore speaks about Lily. He doesn't like to show his grief to Dumbledore and Dumbledore respects that, IMO, if only for reasons of his own. But it  would be surprising if  none of the photographs of James and Lily came from Dumbledore, since Hagrid brags about how close they were to him. And who told Hagrid that Harry didn't have any photographs of his parents, if Dumbledore did not? 

I'd also remind you that Dumbledore gave Harry the Resurrection Stone and Harry ultimately rejected it.  Harry decides that his destiny is not to recover his lost family, that was a childish dream, but to make a new family of his own. In that he's able to go beyond his mentor, who never stopped looking back and ultimately destroyed himself by doing so. 

Pippin





From lynde at post.com  Tue Feb 22 20:49:11 2011
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 15:49:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys
 will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ik0rec+ioio@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CDA0E91747A5E6-DDC-17A47@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190099







Alla:

Maybe owls could have been sent out couple years before? And after Dumbledore's multiple lies and many people (including Hagrid) omitting things, to be honest I am not sure that this is exactly how it occurred. Although since it is pretty much uncontradicted canon I guess I have to believe it, but again, way too many times Harry had been deceived, so I do not know.

Lynda:

I don't think that's the way the Wizarding World ala Rowling works. She wrote it way too much like the way people really are. Real people, meaning to or not, too often look the other way, don't notice things that are going on right under their noses, so to speak. They decide (and I think this is a very large -- anvil attached even -- part of the puzzle that is the mystery part of HP) that the kid needs to discover, by trial and error, or by overcoming the obstacles in their lives the truth about their backgrounds. Having it handed too them is too easy. It is especially too easy in a mammoth story spanning seven books and the entire upper school years of a kid like Harry. Take away his discovering his past on his own and a large part of the story goes missing. Add to that, the fact that the WW is steeped in secrecy. (An entire hidden culture living alongside nonmagical people undetected--there's no big secret there is there?) and the way not only Dumbledore, but Harry were raised and it's not so strange that Dumbledore and the others didn't consider simply telling Harry about his parents. It's just  not the way their society works. 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fenneyml at gmail.com  Tue Feb 22 20:31:21 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 15:31:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of
 "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ik0rec+ioio@eGroups.com>
References: <AANLkTimPbg0yQ3NA5ZPXH5=157J-bHEcgnHeZCPFZrK-@mail.gmail.com>
	<ik0rec+ioio@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinZ3jkcuf+kCZ=dmVX9cYKoQ8KW_KVuTEVwinb3@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190100

> > Margie:
> >
> > On page 304 of Sorcerer's Stone (US paperback), Hagrid gives Harry a
> photo
> > book and says "Sent owls off ter all yer parents' old school friends,
> askin'
> > fer photos...knew yeh didn' have any...d'yeh like it?" I don't see how it
> > could have been given to him much earlier in the series given that owls
> > needed to be sent, pictures need to be found and sent back from multiple
> > people, etc.
>
> >Alla:
> >
> >Maybe owls could have been sent out couple years before? And after
> Dumbledore's multiple lies and many people (including Hagrid) omitting
> things, to be honest I am not sure that this is exactly how it >occurred.
> Although since it is pretty much uncontradicted canon I guess I have to
> believe it, but again, way too many times Harry had been deceived, so I do
> not know.


Margie:

The part before what I quoted says ""Nah. Dumbledore gave me the day off
yesterday ter fix it.  'Course, he shoulda sacked me instead -- anyway, got
yeh this..."  It seemed to be a handsome, leather-covered book.  Harry
opened it curiously.  It was full of wizard photographs.  Smiling and waving
at him from every page were his mother and father."  If you don't want to
believe this, it is your choice, but I am taking it directly from the book.

Hagrid sent out the owls and prepared the book during Harry's first year at
Hogwarts after getting Harry from the Dursleys, during which he learned that
Harry had not been told he was a wizard but had been told his parents died
in an accident.  I can't imagine what would prompt Hagrid or anyone else to
prepare a photo album for Harry before he reentered the wizarding world.



> >Margie:
>
> > Also, one thing that I think people are missing here is that the
> characters
> > don't know everything that we know. Dumbledore does not know from the
> > beginning that Harry was told that his parents were killed in an accident
> > and that he was not to talk about them at the Dursleys. None of these
> > characters know what Harry has been or has not been told by the Dursleys
> or
> > by anyone else. The typical assumption is that the Dursleys, being
> family,
> > probably told Harry a lot about his parents and most adults don't get a
> > clear view of the Dursleys until late in the series.
>
> >Alla:
>
> >Actually in OOP Dumbledore also tells Harry that I had been watching you
> more closely than you could have imagined, so there is a view to which I
> personally subscribe for quite some time now that >Dumbledore knew pretty
> well what was happening in Dursleys household pretty much in very great
> detail. Of course the reader who holds such view (me) would not like
> Dumbledore much because that >would mean that he is responsible for a great
> deal of cruelty in Harry's life, but I had been feeling this way for quite
> some time now.
> >So, yes I think he knew what Dursleys did to Harry, told Harry or not told
> Harry because he was watching him by unspecified magical tools and since he
> says it in OOP, I do not think he refers to >Arabella either.


Margie:

Yes, Dumbledore does say that and he knew that Harry was not treated as
family, not well-fed, etc. but it is a matter of opinion as to what
Dumbledore knew about what the Dursleys said or didn't say about Harry's
parents.  You could "check things out" and any number of points and find
that Harry is in the cupboard and not well-fed but to know what the Dursleys
told him about his parents, you would have to be monitoring the situation at
that specific point in time.  Unless Dumbledore had 24/7 coverage, I don't
see how he could know.

I believe that what I said about the characters not knowing is true about
all the other adults, even if Dumbledore did know.  With respect to the
other characters, in Ch 9 of OOP, Moody shows Harry a picture of the
original members of the Order, including his parents, thinking that Harry
will be quite interested but Harry is instead deeply disturbed and angered
because he also sees Wormtail in the photo.   When it comes to talking about
such things, that is the kind of sensitivity that you deal with and it can
be extremely difficult to know how someone will respond.

Personally, I believe that Dumbledore did all that he could to protect
Harry, that he had good reasons for most of his actions, and that he
struggled mightily to do the right thing in literally hundreds of complex
decisions.   Powerful wizard or not, he has human faults as we all do but I
believe he was wise, caring and usually unselfish.

JMO also,

Margie







From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Feb 22 22:00:47 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 15:00:47 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of
 "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ik0rec+ioio@eGroups.com>
References: <ik0rec+ioio@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D64320F.4040102@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190101


> Margie:
>> Also, one thing that I think people are missing here is that the characters
>> don't know everything that we know.  Dumbledore does not know from the
>> beginning that Harry was told that his parents were killed in an accident
>> and that he was not to talk about them at the Dursleys.  None of these
>> characters know what Harry has been or has not been told by the Dursleys or
>> by anyone else.  The typical assumption is that the Dursleys, being family,
>> probably told Harry a lot about his parents and most adults don't get a
>> clear view of the Dursleys until late in the series.
> Alla:
>
> Actually in OOP Dumbledore also tells Harry that I had been watching you more closely than you could have imagined, so there is a view to which I personally subscribe for quite some time now that Dumbledore knew pretty well what was happening in Dursleys household pretty much in very great detail. Of course the reader who holds such view (me) would not like Dumbledore much because that would mean that he is responsible for a great deal of cruelty in Harry's life, but I had been feeling this way for quite some time now.
>
> So, yes I think he knew what Dursleys did to Harry, told Harry or not told Harry because he was watching him by unspecified magical tools and since he says it in OOP, I do not think he refers to Arabella either.
>
> JMO,
>
> Alla
Shelley now:
I am more of the opinion that Alla is right, Dumbledore knew. Also, the 
Mirror of Erised is in book one. There can be no denying that if 
Dumbledore didn't know how Harry longed to know more about his parents, 
he certainly knew it shortly after Christmas Harry's first year at 
Hogwarts. That is pretty early on in the series that Dumbledore could 
have given Harry some comfort by giving him some photos without spoiling 
any of the plot.

Shelley



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 22 22:33:43 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:33:43 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <ik0lcq+m9a7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik1dk7+85h5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190102

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

Shelley:
> <SNIP>
> I don't think it would have spoiled the story at all to have someone
> give Harry a small photo book of his parents earlier in the series, and
> have him take a brief scene looking at his mom and dad having fun at
> school, looking happy on their wedding day, etc.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Agreed.

Geoff:
Hang on just a minute.....somebody has.

'(Hagrid): 

"Nah, Dumbledore gave me the day off yesterday ter fix it. Course, he shoulda
sacked me insyead - anyway, got yeh this..."
It seemed to be a handsome, leather-covered book. Harry opened it curiously. 
It was full of wizard photographs. Smiling and waving at him from every page 
were his mother and father.

"Sent owls off ter all yer parents' old school friends, askin' fer photos... Knew 
yeh didn'r have any... D'yeh like it?"

Harry couldn't speak but Hagrid understood.'
(PS "The man with Two Faces" p.220 UK edition)

Surely that meets the parameters of your requirement?"




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 22 22:46:49 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:46:49 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinZ3jkcuf+kCZ=dmVX9cYKoQ8KW_KVuTEVwinb3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ik1ecp+4sgp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190103

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Fenney <fenneyml at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
Sorry guys, I jumped in forgetting that I hadn't read the remainder of the 
posts and that other people had also noticed this.

Margie: 
> The part before what I quoted says ""Nah. Dumbledore gave me the day off
> yesterday ter fix it.  'Course, he shoulda sacked me instead -- anyway, got
> yeh this..."  It seemed to be a handsome, leather-covered book.  Harry
> opened it curiously.  It was full of wizard photographs.  Smiling and waving
> at him from every page were his mother and father."  If you don't want to
> believe this, it is your choice, but I am taking it directly from the book.
> 
> Hagrid sent out the owls and prepared the book during Harry's first year at
> Hogwarts after getting Harry from the Dursleys, during which he learned that
> Harry had not been told he was a wizard but had been told his parents died
> in an accident.  

Geoff:
Interestingly, I don't read this the same way as you... 

I read this as Hagrid doing the collection and collating all on the day before, 
Dumbledore in his wisdom thinking "What can we do to make something up 
to Harry".

I don't see Hagrid being organised enough to collect photos during the year 
and also keep them under wraps without letting something slip. Anyway, if 
that was the case, why wait until almost the last moment before the end of 
term to give them?




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 23 00:26:14 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:26:14 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <ik1ecp+4sgp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik1k76+kegc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190104



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
...
> 
> Geoff:
> Interestingly, I don't read this the same way as you... 
> 
> I read this as Hagrid doing the collection and collating all 
> on the day before, Dumbledore in his wisdom thinking "What 
> can we do to make something up to Harry".
> 
> I don't see Hagrid being organised enough to collect photos
> during the year and also keep them under wraps without letting
> something slip. Anyway, if that was the case, why wait until 
> almost the last moment before the end of term to give them?
>

Steve:

Oddly, to me, at the last moment seems like the perfect time to 
give Harry the Photo Book; something to carry him through the
long holiday.

As to Hagrid collecting the photos, I imagine he sent out 
requests early, and some of the earlier responses lead him to
other people who might have photos. But I don't see Hagrid 
sending out one blanket request, then being flooded with 
replies. These photos would have been very old, and people
who have had to dig around through old junk stored in the
attic. 

I can see the responses straggling in a photo or two hear and
there, and Hagrid just stuffing them in a draw with the 
intension of eventually working on it. 

However, when it got down to the last minute, Hargrid had to
finish it. Likely he had all the photos, so just a matter of
sorting them, and mounting them in the book. And if he used
magic, that would certainly speed the process up. 

And again, just before Harry left seems the perfect time to 
give him the book. Harry is all down about having to leave
Hogwarts for a couple of months, and the books would be good
to keep him occupied and distracted while the time whiled 
away.

Just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Feb 23 03:06:41 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 19:06:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past WASRe: On the Issue of "Boys will be Boys" Chapt 14 Disc
In-Reply-To: <4D617439.3030406@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <723493.33542.qm@web113917.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190105


> Shelley:
<snip> I don't think it would have spoiled the story at all to have
someone give Harry a small photobook of his parents earlier in the
series, and have him take a brief scene looking at his mom and dad
> having fun at school, looking happy on their wedding day, etc.


June:
Actually at the end of The Philosopher's Stone Hagrid did give Harry
a book with pictures of his parents in it. There was also a picture
from their wedding day with Sirius as best man (that was revealed in
Prisoner of Azkaban). There were little hints all the way through the
books they just didn't come right out and give all the information at
once because who is going to read the rest of the books if they
already know everything.

Sorry if you take offence to me saying this but it is the truth.






From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Feb 23 05:30:24 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:30:24 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <ik1k76+kegc@eGroups.com>
References: <ik1k76+kegc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D649B70.8070403@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190106


> And again, just before Harry left seems the perfect time to
> give him the book. Harry is all down about having to leave
> Hogwarts for a couple of months, and the books would be good
> to keep him occupied and distracted while the time whiled
> away.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Steve/bboyminn

It was a nice gesture, but notice how fast Harry loses it- as soon as 
Harry gets home, Uncle Vernon locks all of Harry's school books up and 
padlocks Hedwig's cage.

And does Rowling ever mention it again in the series?

Shelley





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Feb 23 04:08:52 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 20:08:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <ik1k76+kegc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <938045.83402.qm@web113916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190107

> Geoff:
> I read this as Hagrid doing the collection and collating all
> on the day before, Dumbledore in his wisdom thinking "What
> can we do to make something up to Harry".
>
> I don't see Hagrid being organised enough to collect photos
> during the year and also keep them under wraps without letting
> something slip. Anyway, if that was the case, why wait until
> almost the last moment before the end of term to give them?

> Steve:
> <snip> As to Hagrid collecting the photos, I imagine he sent
out requests early, and some of the earlier responses lead him
to other people who might have photos. <snip>
>
> And again, just before Harry left seems the perfect time to
give him the book. Harry is all down about having to leave
Hogwarts for a couple of months, and the books would be good to
> keep him occupied and distracted while the time whiled away.


June:
I agree with Steve on this one. I think Hagrid probably got the
idea when he learned that Harry knew nothing of his parents
(because the Dursleys didn`t tell him) and felt bad for him and
sent the letters off perhaps even before start of term. That would
be an awful hard project for a wizard who (even though we know he
used magic) had to keep it under wraps (and with Dumbledore about).
And as Steve says end of the year when he has to go back to the
Dursleys is the best time to give it to him.




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 23 07:54:02 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:54:02 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <938045.83402.qm@web113916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ik2eeq+ld3p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190108

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> > I read this as Hagrid doing the collection and collating all
> > on the day before, Dumbledore in his wisdom thinking "What
> > can we do to make something up to Harry".
> >
> > I don't see Hagrid being organised enough to collect photos
> > during the year and also keep them under wraps without letting
> > something slip. Anyway, if that was the case, why wait until
> > almost the last moment before the end of term to give them?

Steve:
> > And again, just before Harry left seems the perfect time to
> give him the book. Harry is all down about having to leave
> Hogwarts for a couple of months, and the books would be good to
> > keep him occupied and distracted while the time whiled away.

 June:
> I agree with Steve on this one. I think Hagrid probably got the
> idea when he learned that Harry knew nothing of his parents
> (because the Dursleys didn`t tell him) and felt bad for him and
> sent the letters off perhaps even before start of term. 

Geoff:
Good enough. I just read it as a sudden thought on somebody's part. 
Your interpretation and Steve's, hadn't occurred to me but it's perfectly 
valid; there's nothing else in canon, as far as I can remember, to 
confirm the event one way or the other. And it's not vital to the plot 
line. At the time, it is a very pleasing gesture for Harry's who is about
 to be pitched back into the Muggle world and all the hassle that that 
implies.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Feb 23 13:01:38 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:01:38 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <4D649B70.8070403@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ik30fi+phnu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190109


Shelley: 
> It was a nice gesture, but notice how fast Harry loses it- as soon as 
> Harry gets home, Uncle Vernon locks all of Harry's school books up and 
> padlocks Hedwig's cage.
> 
> And does Rowling ever mention it again in the series?
> 
Potioncat:
I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in PoA. After Harry learns that Black betrayed his parents, he pulls the album out to look at the wedding photo. I'm not sure which chapter that would be.

 June:
> Actually at the end of The Philosopher's Stone Hagrid did give Harry
> a book with pictures of his parents in it. There was also a picture
> from their wedding day with Sirius as best man (that was revealed in
> Prisoner of Azkaban). There were little hints all the way through the
> books they just didn't come right out and give all the information at
> once because who is going to read the rest of the books if they
> already know everything.
> 
> Sorry if you take offence to me saying this but it is the truth.

Potioncat:
Who would read books if they already knew everything? Hmmm, let me think...

Actually I agree with you about the little hints and the rationing out of information for the reader. I think some of the events would have lost impact if we had "heard" about them earlier in the series. James the Bully was a big surprise for the readers and we felt Harry's pain as  much as he did.




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Wed Feb 23 17:15:28 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:15:28 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <ik30fi+phnu@eGroups.com>
References: <ik30fi+phnu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D6540B0.5060105@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190110


> Potioncat:
> Who would read books if they already knew everything? Hmmm, let me think...
>
> Actually I agree with you about the little hints and the rationing out of information for the reader. I think some of the events would have lost impact if we had "heard" about them earlier in the series. James the Bully was a big surprise for the readers and we felt Harry's pain as  much as he did.
>

Shelley:
Yeah, like some of us have read all the books, what 5, 6 times now? I am 
sure some have read them more.

The thing about pictures are they are only a brief window into a person. 
None of the pictures would show how many times James had helped a 
classmate, for example, nor would they show him being a bully to Snape. 
Those are the sort of things that Harry could only get from the people 
who knew James.




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 23 21:40:37 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 21:40:37 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <ik30fi+phnu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik3usl+1htj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190111

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

Shelley: 
> > It was a nice gesture, but notice how fast Harry loses it- as soon as 
> > Harry gets home, Uncle Vernon locks all of Harry's school books up and 
> > padlocks Hedwig's cage.
 
> > And does Rowling ever mention it again in the series?

 Potioncat:
> I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in PoA. After Harry learns that Black betrayed his parents, he pulls the album out to look at the wedding photo. I'm not sure which chapter that would be.

Geoff:
Exercising my once famous grasp of canon:

'Harry, who didn't want Fred and George asking him whether he'd reached 
Hogsmeade or not, sneaked quietly up to the empty dormitory and headed 
straight for his bedside cabinet. He pushed his books aside ands quickly found 
what he was looking for - the leather-bound photo album Hagrid had given
him two years ago, which was full of wizard pictures of his mother and father. 
He sat down on his bed, drew the hangings round him and started turning the
pages, searching, until...

He stopped on a picture of his parents' wedding day. There was his father 
waving up at him, beaming, the untidy black hair Harry had inherited standing
up in all directions. There was his mother, alight with happiness, arm in arm 
with his Dad. And there... that must be him. Their best man... Harry had never 
given him a thought before'
(POA "The Firebolt" p.1457 UK edition)




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 23 21:45:15 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 21:45:15 -0000
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <ik3usl+1htj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik3v5b+nssa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190112

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> Exercising my once famous grasp of canon:

<snip>

> (POA "The Firebolt" p.1457 UK edition)

Geoff (a  minute or so later):

Sorry. Typo crept in - should be p,157. Apologies to anyone looking 
who is now about half a mile past the end of the book.
:-(





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Feb 24 03:59:44 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 19:59:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <4D649B70.8070403@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <826978.1449.qm@web113908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190113


> Shelley:
> It was a nice gesture, but notice how fast Harry loses it- as
> soon as Harry gets home, Uncle Vernon locks all of Harry's
> school books up and padlocks Hedwig's cage.
>
> And does Rowling ever mention it again in the series?


June:
Yes it is mentioned in Prisoner of Azkaban when Harry looks at
it and realizes that (as they thought at that time) the man
standing up for his parents at the wedding picture was Sirius
Black and that he had made it possible for Voldemort to kill
his parents and he wondered if he had known in that picture
that he would be responsible for his parents' deaths.






From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Thu Feb 24 04:52:07 2011
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (Marianne Hall)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 04:52:07 -0000
Subject: Severus
Message-ID: <ik4o5n+ciue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190114

Has the origins of Severus' name ever been discussed?

I'm watching history of the dead and there was a real live warrior named Severus.  This guy really made the rounds.  He was very powerful and conqured lots of countries.  He was merciless.  The show don't really say how he died, but I can guarantee it wasn't by a basalisk.

His entire name was Lucius Septimius Severus.  He was known as Severus.  He was born in Libya.  He had sons, and his wife was from Syria.  His youngest son was a real SOB.

Think JKR got Snape's and Lucius' names from those origins?  Course, Snape looks like an angel compared to the real Severus.  His entire name screams JKR's research.

Severus.  The name Lucius is very interesting.  Septimius - isn't that part of a potion.  Semptim Sempra? <sp>  Don't have the book with me right now.

Just curious.

Marianne




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 24 08:35:09 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:35:09 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik4o5n+ciue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik557t+gsv7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190115

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marianne Hall" <wildirishrose at ...> wrote:
>
> Has the origin of Severus' name ever been discussed?

<snip>
 
> His entire name was Lucius Septimius Severus.  He was known as Severus.  He was born in Libya.  He had sons, and his wife was from Syria.  His youngest son was a real SOB.
> 
> Think JKR got Snape's and Lucius' names from those origins?  Course, Snape looks like an angel compared to the real Severus.  His entire name screams JKR's research.
> 
> Severus.  The name Lucius is very interesting.  Septimius - isn't that part of a potion.  Semptim Sempra? <sp>  Don't have the book with me right now.

Has the origin of Severus' name ever been discussed?

<snip>

Think JKR got Snape's and Lucius' names from those origins? Course, Snape looks
like an angel compared to the real Severus. His entire name screams JKR's
research.

Severus. The name Lucius is very interesting. Septimius - isn't that part of a
potion. Semptim Sempra? <sp> Don't have the book with me right now.


Geoff:
We have discussed JKR's use of Latin quite a lot at various times. She makes a 
lot of use  of it.

"Severus"  derives from a Latin adjective meaning "stern", "forbidding" and 
(surprise, surprise) "Severe".

I think our Libyan friend's middle name was actually "Septimus", often given 
to a seventh child (if male) and coming from "septem" the Latin number seven 
? familiar in our usage in "September".

"Lucius" is derived from the Latin "lux" meaning "light". There is a brief 
reference to a Lucius in the New Testament and there were three Popes with 
this name: Lucius I (253-254), Lucius II (1144-1145) and Lucius III (1181-1185). 
The famous Roman politician Seneca also had a first name of Lucius. So Mr. 
Malfoy is in illustrious company.
:-)

Regarding the curse Sectumsempra: "-sempra" derives from "semper" meaning 
"always, " and the "Sectum" from one of the verbs "to cut" ?(which has a link to 
the English "dissect"). Hence the curse means "to always cut" ? hence the 
nastiness of its action.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Feb 24 11:40:35 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:40:35 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik4o5n+ciue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik5g3j+mbe2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190116


 "Marianne Hall" 
<snip>
> Has the origins of Severus' name ever been discussed?

Potioncat (agreeing with all Geoff said)
Boy, did we used to pour over names and any possible hints!
We were particularly concerned that the historical Severus Septimus (who spent time in Britain) was associated with Albinius (Albus?) and would later kill him and take his place as emperor (headmaster?). So i don't know why the ending of HBP was such a surprise.

I've typed this without my glasses or spellcheck...I hope there aren't any glaring errors.




From happydogue at aol.com  Thu Feb 24 15:02:40 2011
From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 15:02:40 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik5g3j+mbe2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik5rug+r4j2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190117

There are also several St. Serverus'
Here is an example of one
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/article02.html






From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Feb 24 19:54:47 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:54:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik4o5n+ciue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <840836.55574.qm@web113903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190118

> Marianne:
Has the origins of Severus' name ever been discussed?

I'm watching history of the dead and there was a real live warrior
named Severus. This guy really made the rounds. He was very powerful
and conqured lots of countries. He was merciless. The show don't
really say how he died, but I can guarantee it wasn't by a basalisk.

His entire name was Lucius Septimius Severus. He was known as
Severus. He was born in Libya. He had sons, and his wife was from
Syria. His youngest son was a real SOB.

Think JKR got Snape's and Lucius' names from those origins? Course,
Snape looks like an angel compared to the real Severus. His entire
name screams JKR's research.

Severus. The name Lucius is very interesting. Septimius - isn't that
part of a potion. Semptim Sempra? <sp> Don't have the book with me
> right now.


June:
Wow that does sound like it could have been the origin. I read a
few years back that some of the names came from places in England
either old or recent and if I am remembering correctly Snape is
a small town some where in England. Could be that what you found
could be where the rest of his name came from also. And I would
bet you are correct about this person supplying the name for
Lucius as well.



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Feb 24 23:43:39 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:43:39 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <840836.55574.qm@web113903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ik6qfb+hq8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190119



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
 
June:
> Wow that does sound like it could have been the origin. I read a
> few years back that some of the names came from places in England
> either old or recent and if I am remembering correctly Snape is
> a small town some where in England. 

Geoff:
Off the top of my head, I can think of four surnames in the Harry 
Potter books which are the same as UK place names.

Snape is a small town in Suffolk, on the east coast of England, about 
three or four miles inland from Aldeburgh which is on the coast. Its
principal claim to fame is its connection to Benjamin Britten, one of the 
most influential British composers who lived here for many years. The
Maltings Concert Hall was developed by Britten.

Dursley is a small town alongside the M5 in Gloucestershire about 15 
miles north of Bristol and also of Bath. There is a very tenuous link here 
in that Jo Rowling was born at Yate, about 10 miles south of Dursley and
may have remembered the name.

The third which occurs to me is Bagshot which is a medium sized town 
in Surrey, about 10 miles south of Windsor Castle.

Finally, Flint is a county in the north east corner of Wales, just across the border
from the city of Chester.

But, to be frank, I see no hidden agenda in their selection as family names
in the books.




From loptwyn at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 24 23:37:20 2011
From: loptwyn at yahoo.com (Alice)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:37:20 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik5rug+r4j2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik6q3g+h7qf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190120



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "happydogue" <happydogue at ...> wrote:
>
> There are also several St. Serverus'
<snip>

There was also a St. Severus of Ravenna who started out as a poor weaver (kind of fits in with Spinner's End)

Mad Alice
>:>





From ncfan at att.net  Fri Feb 25 00:00:02 2011
From: ncfan at att.net (ncfan17)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 00:00:02 -0000
Subject: Percy and Pyramids
Message-ID: <ik6re2+1br2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190121

Does anyone else find it disturbing that Fred and George once shut their brother Percy up in a pyramid?

What I'm talking about is a throwaway line on page 63 of PoA. George tells Harry that he and Fred "tried to shut [Percy] in a pyramid", but that their mother caught them.

While this only says that Fred and George tried to shut Percy in a pyramid, there's nothing that suggests that they didn't actually manage it.

I know Percy isn't the most popular of characters (please don't kill me for going to bat for him), but I have to feel for him. He was never arrogant as much as he was painfully insecure and hiding it in all the wrong ways, and the Twins both seem to delight in making life harder for him. The rest of his family, even his mother, seems rather contemptuous of him or at least bemused by him. Percy is, plainly, the Odd Duck of the Weasley Clan long before he's the Black Sheep.

Back to the topic at hand. George's remark that "Mum" spotted them indicates to me that it's entirely possible that Molly was the only one who took Percy's side during the course of the "pyramid incident", meaning that the rest of the family took Fred and George's sides (as they tend to do anyway) and regarded the whole incident as a joke. I personally don't see this as a joke, I don't think it's anything resembling harmless, and if Percy were a real person he'd probably agree with me.

And one has to wonder how this affected Percy. If he really did end up locked in a pyramid for any amount of time, it was probably at best an annoying and at worst a terrifying experience for him (remember, he's only sixteen at the time and unable to perform magic outside of school; Harry's hearing in OoTP proves that the Ministry doesn't make exceptions for life-threatening situations), especially considering the stories mentioned about Muggles attempting to break into the pyramids ending up horribly deformed, and even if he didn't end up in the pyramid, this experience was likely an eye-opening one for him. It would likely have shown him just how far the Twins are willing to go in order to get a laugh at his expense, and if Molly was indeed the only one to defend him, it probably demonstrated to Percy just how friendless he is among his own family. One wonders just how far this incident went in helping along the breakdown of Percy's relationships among his family.

ncfan17



From lynde at post.com  Fri Feb 25 02:31:00 2011
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:31:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <4D649B70.8070403@comcast.net>
References: <ik1k76+kegc@eGroups.com> <4D649B70.8070403@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <8CDA2AB2CB2B540-338-677A@web-mmc-d05.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190122











Shelley:
It was a nice gesture, but notice how fast Harry loses it- as soon as 
Harry gets home, Uncle Vernon locks all of Harry's school books up and 
padlocks Hedwig's cage.

And does Rowling ever mention it again in the series?

Shelley

Lynda: My immediate thought was, Uncle Vernon was a jerk and acted in character. Why would I expect such a person to act any differently than he did? Harry does have access to his things again throughout the series. I know that from understanding continuity and the way Rowling writes. Once again--I do not have to be told that characters in the course of a novel engage in such mundane activities as bathing, going to the bathroom, sleeping, looking at pictures of family members to understand that if they are living "normal" lives they are doing such things, and frankly books that depict all those mundane activities are deadly bores. 

Lynda






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 25 04:41:58 2011
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 04:41:58 -0000
Subject: Percy and Pyramids
In-Reply-To: <ik6re2+1br2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik7bum+pd4n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190123

ncfan17 wrote:
[snip]
>The rest of his family, even his mother, seems rather contemptuous of him or at least bemused by him. 

Joey:

Um, I always thought Molly was pretty good to Percy. Wonder which instance you are referring to. She always seemed to consider that Percy is a role model for his siblings. 

ncfan17 wrote:
[snip]
>It would likely have shown him just how far the Twins are willing to go in order to get a laugh at his expense, and if Molly was indeed the only one to defend him, it probably demonstrated to Percy just how friendless he is among his own family. One wonders just how far this incident went in helping along the breakdown of Percy's relationships among his family.

Joey:

I do remember Fred and George mellowing down when Percy asked them to stop scaring Ginny in CoS. And they don't seem to spare anyone including themselves! Bill and Charlie did stop playing with the tables in air when Percy wanted some silence in GoF. So, I guess Percy might not have felt exactly friendless or constantly bossed over. Yet he might have expected his father to give him more support when his siblings teased him because I don't remember Arthur backing him up anywhere in the series.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Fri Feb 25 05:51:18 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:51:18 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <8CDA2AB2CB2B540-338-677A@web-mmc-d05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <ik1k76+kegc@eGroups.com> <4D649B70.8070403@comcast.net> <8CDA2AB2CB2B540-338-677A@web-mmc-d05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4D674356.1010205@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190124


> Shelley:
> It was a nice gesture, but notice how fast Harry loses it- as soon as
> Harry gets home, Uncle Vernon locks all of Harry's school books up and
> padlocks Hedwig's cage.
>
> And does Rowling ever mention it again in the series?
>
> Shelley
>
> Lynda: My immediate thought was, Uncle Vernon was a jerk and acted in character. Why would I expect such a person to act any differently than he did? Harry does have access to his things again throughout the series. I know that from understanding continuity and the way Rowling writes. Once again--I do not have to be told that characters in the course of a novel engage in such mundane activities as bathing, going to the bathroom, sleeping, looking at pictures of family members to understand that if they are living "normal" lives they are doing such things, and frankly books that depict all those mundane activities are deadly bores.
>
> Lynda
Shelley now:
Ummm yeah, except in this case, the photo book is a clue to something 
that happens later in the series:

Geoff:
Exercising my once famous grasp of canon:

'Harry, who didn't want Fred and George asking him whether he'd reached
Hogsmeade or not, sneaked quietly up to the empty dormitory and headed
straight for his bedside cabinet. He pushed his books aside ands quickly found
what he was looking for - the leather-bound photo album Hagrid had given
him two years ago, which was full of wizard pictures of his mother and father.
He sat down on his bed, drew the hangings round him and started turning the
pages, searching, until...

He stopped on a picture of his parents' wedding day. There was his father "
waving up at him, beaming, the untidy black hair Harry had inherited standing
up in all directions. There was his mother, alight with happiness, arm in arm
with his Dad. And there... that must be him. Their best man... Harry had never
given him a thought before'
(POA "The Firebolt" p,157 UK edition)

Shelley:
So while you see looking at pictures of family members as "boring and mundane", the fact that Harry is an orphan makes the photo book a valuable tool to introduce us to people who will indeed play a key role in this story. It's not boring because really, this is the first opportunity you get to see the people that Harry was denied the opportunity to grow up with (not everyday life, IMHO!) You can be bored all you want, but the rest of us were looking for clues to how the story would progress.







From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb 25 06:27:00 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:27:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik6qfb+hq8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <361439.44026.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190125

June:
> <snip> I read a few years back that some of the names came from
> places in England either old or recent and if I am remembering
> correctly Snape is a small town some where in England.

> Geoff:
> Off the top of my head, I can think of four surnames in the
Harry Potter books which are the same as UK place names.
<snip>
But, to be frank, I see no hidden agenda in their selection as
> family names in the books.

June:
I wasn't speculating, I was repeating what I had read on the net
while looking for information on when Order of the Phoenix was
coming out. I had read that the name Snape and at least one other
name had been taken from town names in England. I don't remember
all the details but this gives you some idea of how long ago it
was.






From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb 25 06:39:01 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:39:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Percy and Pyramids
In-Reply-To: <ik6re2+1br2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993646.37579.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190126

> ncfan17:
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that Fred and George once shut
their brother Percy up in a pyramid?

What I'm talking about is a throwaway line on page 63 of PoA. George
tells Harry that he and Fred "tried to shut [Percy] in a pyramid",
but that their mother caught them.

While this only says that Fred and George tried to shut Percy in a
pyramid, there's nothing that suggests that they didn't actually
manage it.

I know Percy isn't the most popular of characters (please don't kill
me for going to bat for him), but I have to feel for him. He was
never arrogant as much as he was painfully insecure and hiding it in
all the wrong ways, and the Twins both seem to delight in making life
harder for him. The rest of his family, even his mother, seems rather
contemptuous of him or at least bemused by him. Percy is, plainly,
the Odd Duck of the Weasley Clan long before he's the Black Sheep.

Back to the topic at hand. George's remark that "Mum" spotted them
indicates to me that it's entirely possible that Molly was the only
one who took Percy's side during the course of the "pyramid
incident", meaning that the rest of the family took Fred and George's
sides (as they tend to do anyway) and regarded the whole incident as
a joke. I personally don't see this as a joke, I don't think it's
anything resembling harmless, and if Percy were a real person he'd
probably agree with me.

And one has to wonder how this affected Percy. <snip> One wonders
just how far this incident went in helping along the breakdown of
> Percy's relationships among his family.


June:
I do not believe the twins did lock him in a pyramid. As you
stated yourself Fred said that they were caught by their mother
so she would have put a stop to it. Mrs. Weasley (the way I see
it) somewhat favors her other children over the twins because
they have not quite lived up to her expectations (although her
feelings on the matter change when they open their own joke shop
and are successful). I think the twins as well as finding Percy
to be a pompous ass (as I am afraid I do too) are maybe a little
jealous of him. As for the rest of the family I don't think for
a minute that their dad would have allowed the twins to lock
Percy (or anyone else for that matter) in a pyramid. Ron might
have turned a blind eye because of the way Percy treats him
(referring to the scene where Percy is abusing Ron verbally when
he can't find his head boy badge). Ginny again may have turned a
blind eye because it is true that the rest of the Weasleys do
see what their mum cannot see. Percy makes me think of my Aunt
Linda. She was the outcast in my mum's family and even as adults
her siblings would taunt her but she was somewhat like Percy
(though not as bad).



From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb 25 06:49:56 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:49:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <4D674356.1010205@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <606013.48468.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190127

> Shelley:
> So while you see looking at pictures of family members as "boring
and mundane", the fact that Harry is an orphan makes the photo book
a valuable tool to introduce us to people who will indeed play a
key role in this story. It's not boring because really, this is the
first opportunity you get to see the people that Harry was denied
the opportunity to grow up with (not everyday life, IMHO!) You can
be bored all you want, but the rest of us were looking for clues to
> how the story would progress.


June:
I think what Lynda was trying to say (and I totally agree with this)
is that Harry did look at the picture book when it was needed for
the storyline to help us learn things about it when we and Harry
needed to, however to have him looking at the book all the time and
to see these pictures over and over again would have been boring and
could have lost the audience. I think the way JKR did it was perfect.
It was obvious to me that he had himself looked at the pictures many
times so he did get to see his parents and we all learned something
about them in Philosopher's Stone when he saw his whole family in
the mirror of erised (in which I did make note that, that did not
include Mrs. Dursley, there's a surprise lol) but we learned along
the way as Harry did and that was the correct way in my opinion.
Too much information all at once isn't good.






From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 25 10:48:33 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:48:33 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <361439.44026.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ik81e1+f8a6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190128



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:

 June:
> > <snip> I read a few years back that some of the names came from
> > places in England either old or recent and if I am remembering
> > correctly Snape is a small town some where in England.
 
Geoff:
> But, to be frank, I see no hidden agenda in their selection as
> > family names in the books.
 
> June:
> I wasn't speculating, I was repeating what I had read on the net
> while looking for information on when Order of the Phoenix was
> coming out. I had read that the name Snape and at least one other
> name had been taken from town names in England. I don't remember
> all the details but this gives you some idea of how long ago it
> was.

Geoff:
If it was when OOTP was coming out, that was in June 2003, because I 
joined HPFGU in the following month.

I didn't think that you were speculating, June. I was just adding my two 
pennyworth to the question of names. My final comment was because 
some of JKR's naming has been carefully worked out. For instance, you 
have the humorous ones like Umbridge, Durmstrang or Grimmauld. And 
those where she subtly changes the meaning of a word as in Disillusion 
or Apparition. I think she must have used the town and regional names 
because she like the sound of them... 

Who knows? 
<loud offstage whisper of 'JKR knows'>.
:-)









From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 25 15:10:13 2011
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:10:13 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik6qfb+hq8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik8gol+7e4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190129

Geoff wrote:
> Off the top of my head, I can think of four surnames in the Harry  Potter books which are the same as UK place names.
> 
> Snape is a small town in Suffolk, on the east coast of England, about three or four miles inland from Aldeburgh which is on the coast. <snip>
> 
> Dursley is a small town alongside the M5 in Gloucestershire about 15 miles north of Bristol and also of Bath. There is a very tenuous link here in that Jo Rowling was born at Yate, about 10 miles south of Dursley and may have remembered the name.
> 
> The third which occurs to me is Bagshot which is a medium sized town in Surrey, about 10 miles south of Windsor Castle.
> 
> Finally, Flint is a county in the north east corner of Wales, just across the border from the city of Chester.
> 
> But, to be frank, I see no hidden agenda in their selection as family names in the books.
>
Carol responds:

I don't remember a Bagshot in the HP books. Can you refresh my memory? (I do remember a Bagshot Row in the Tolkien books, tied in with a lot of bag, sack, and cul de sac puns, including the patrician/plebeian name Sackville-Baggins, but nothing of the sort in HP.)

I think that, aside from giving a number of her characters Latin or Greek names that occasionally gave hints as to their character traits or other aspects such as their Animagus form (Sirius) or their status as a werewolf (Remus Lupin, Fenrir Greyback), JKR was more interested in the sound of a last name than its meaning (except in Phineas Nigellus Black--meaning Black Black Black). For example, "Snape" resembles "snake" and I think she wanted it to sound ominous and perhaps play on the association of Slytherin with snakes. Also, Severus Snape alliterates, as do many of the names in the HP books, including Dudley Dursley (perhaps chosen because it somehow suggests someone slow-witted?). Filius Flitwick, Minerva McGonagall, and probably others that I can't recall at the moment. Essentially, I think she wanted the *sound* of the name to fit the character. Sometimes, there are other considerations, such as giving most (but not all) of the Black family members names related to constellations. Possibly, she intended some names, such as Hag rid (hag-rid[den]) to have slightly comic or dark comic overtones, not surprising given her love of puns.

Carol, just posting thoughts off the top of my head 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 25 15:36:18 2011
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:36:18 -0000
Subject: Percy and Pyramids
In-Reply-To: <ik6re2+1br2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik8i9i+v0cl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190130

<ncfan at ... wrote:
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that Fred and George once shut their brother Percy up in a pyramid?
> 
> What I'm talking about is a throwaway line on page 63 of PoA. George tells Harry that he and Fred "tried to shut [Percy] in a pyramid", but that their mother caught them.
> 
> While this only says that Fred and George tried to shut Percy in a pyramid, there's nothing that suggests that they didn't actually manage it.
> 
> I know Percy isn't the most popular of characters (please don't kill me for going to bat for him), but I have to feel for him. He was never arrogant as much as he was painfully insecure and hiding it in all the wrong ways, and the Twins both seem to delight in making life harder for him. The rest of his family, even his mother, seems rather contemptuous of him or at least bemused by him. Percy is, plainly, the Odd Duck of the Weasley Clan long before he's the Black Sheep.
 <snip>

Carol responds:

First, I agree with you in feeling somewhat sorry for Percy. I was quite happy when he finally had the courage to apologize to his family. I think the usually delightful Mr. Weasley was in the wrong to make no attempt to understand him and convince him rationally that his promotion was a little too quick and he might be being used by the Ministry. And I agree that the Twins are quite insensitive to the psychological harm that their pranks might do, especially with regard to Dudley Dursley and the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident. (Don't worry; I'll get to the pyramid!) I think, however, that JKR herself finds these incidents funny and sympathizes with the mischief makers. She also seems remarkably unconcerned about the animals that get Vanished or turned into teakettles or pincushions.

As for the pyramid, it would have taken magic to shut Percy in the pyramid, so I doubt that underage magic is a concern. (The Twins perform magic all the time under cover of the adults with them; in the Weasley household, underage magic or magic performed in the presence of a minor is an everyday occurrence. (Remember, the Ministry didn't know that Dobby had performed the Hover Charm in CoS, only that it had occurred in the Dursley household in the presence of a minor Wizard--and in the presence of Muggles, which was probably more serious.) And it's unlikely that the Ministry's powers of detection reach as far as Egypt.

Percy, of course, would also have needed to perform magic to get himself out, but that wouldn't matter for the same reason. Also, even though he's not as clever in inventing uses for magic as the Twins, he's no slouch at magic, considering that he got twelve OWLs. If the Twins could trap him in a pyramid (and we don't know whether they would have succeeded because their mother stopped them), Percy could have gotten himself out again. The Twins don't know any Dark magic as far as I know.

At any rate, the Twins also played tricks on Bill, putting a beetle in his soup, as I recall. No one except Harry is really safe in their presence. As for Percy, he probably had to develop a thick skin (and a healthy sense of denial) early on: he thinks the dragon dung the Twins send him to analyze is a genuine assignment. (Forgive me; the details of that little incident are a bit fuzzy in my mind. It's been ages since I reread the books.)

Carol, who is pretty sure that JKR expects the reader to side with the Twins and to appreciate the sometimes dark humor of the books




From fenneyml at gmail.com  Fri Feb 25 09:53:39 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 04:53:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Severus
In-Reply-To: <361439.44026.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <ik6qfb+hq8c@eGroups.com>
	<361439.44026.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikFR9kfE3dy=q1giFY2kBDJh6jh83=+9YgK+g2n@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190131

>
> >June:
> >I wasn't speculating, I was repeating what I had read on the net
> >while looking for information on when Order of the Phoenix was
> >coming out. I had read that the name Snape and at least one other
> >name had been taken from town names in England. I don't remember
> >all the details but this gives you some idea of how long ago it
> >was.
>

Margie:

The page about Snape on the Harry Potter Lexicon website (
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/snape.html)  says:

*'Severus' meaning:*
'Severus' has obvious connotations of severity and strictness. There are
also several saints with the name 'Severus.'
*'Snape' meaning:* JKR says "Snape is an English village" ([image: WEB LINK]
eT <http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/fall00-etoys.html>), probably
the one in North Yorkshire near Hadrian?s (aka Severus?) Wall. This village
also has a '[image: WEB LINK]Snape
Castle<http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/slhg/page2.phtml>.'
There is another Snape Village that is near Saxmundham, northeast of Ipswich
near the Alde River.
*snape* (v.) - 'to be hard upon, rebuke, snub,' c.1300, from Old Norse *
sneypa* 'to outrage, dishonor, disgrace.' ([image: WEB
LINK]etymonline<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=snape>
)
*sneap*: to nip; pinch; put down; repress; snub ([image: WEB LINK]
phrontistery <http://phrontistery.50megs.com/s.html>).

and if you go to the referred to page of JKR quotes (
http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/fall00-etoys.html), it says:

*How do you come up with all the unique names, places, and things that help
make Harry Potter so intriguing?*
Many of the names are invented, for example "Quidditch" and "Muggle." I also
collect unusual names, and I take them from all sorts of different places.
"Hedwig" was a saint, "Dumbledore" is an old English word for "bumblebee,"
and "Snape" is the name of a place in England.

I don't think there is a "hidden agenda" to most of the names although some
beasts, plants and objects come directly from mythology and legend with
previous meanings and some others, often spells or potions, do have a clever
meaning (usually the ones from latin or other ancient languages).  From what
I've read in quotes of JKR, she mostly collected interesting sounding names
and words which she eventually used in the books.

Margie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 25 18:07:33 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:07:33 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik8gol+7e4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik8r55+c5fj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190132

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol responds:
> 
> I don't remember a Bagshot in the HP books. Can you refresh my memory? (I do remember a Bagshot Row in the Tolkien books, tied in with a lot of bag, sack, and cul de sac puns, including the patrician/plebeian name Sackville-Baggins, but nothing of the sort in HP.)

Geoff:
Bathilda Bagshot was the renowned author of "A History of Magic", a standard
Hogwarts textbook and was presumably killed when Voldemort used her body 
or a snake Transfigured into a form of it to attack and try to capture Harry at 
Godric's Hollow.
(DH "Bathilda's Secret" p.278 et seq. UK edition)




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb 25 17:43:35 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:43:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikFR9kfE3dy=q1giFY2kBDJh6jh83=+9YgK+g2n@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <441894.67250.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>




> Margie:
> The page about Snape on the Harry Potter Lexicon website
(http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/snape.html)?says:
<snip>
*'Snape' meaning:* JKR says "Snape is an English village" <snip>
probably the one in North Yorkshire near Hadrian's (aka Severus')
Wall. <snip>

and if you go to the referred to page of JKR quotes
(http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/fall00-etoys.html),
it says:

*How do you come up with all the unique names, places, and things
that help make Harry Potter so intriguing?*
Many of the names are invented, for example "Quidditch" and
"Muggle." I also collect unusual names, and I take them from all
sorts of different places.  "Hedwig" was a saint, "Dumbledore" is
an old English word for "bumblebee," and "Snape" is the name of a
place in England. <snip>


June:
Thank you Margie, I knew I had read some where that the name
Snape had come from a place in England but could not remember
where I read it and didn't remember that it was actually JKR
who had said it. I was actually going to look for it yesterday
but was down by a bad headache (I get them some times because
of an accident I was in a couple of years ago) so instead I
went to bed quite early. Thank you again for doing this
research, I knew I wasn't crazy (not totally any way, lol).









From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb 25 17:57:35 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:57:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik8gol+7e4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <339093.72864.qm@web113906.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

> Carol responds:
> I don't remember a Bagshot in the HP books. Can you refresh
my memory? (I do remember a Bagshot Row in the Tolkien books,
tied in with a lot of bag, sack, and cul de sac puns, including
the patrician/plebeian name Sackville-Baggins, but nothing of
> the sort in HP.) <snip>


June:
Bathilda Bagshot is the author of? "A History of Magic".
Professor Bathilda Bagshot (before 1881-December 1997) was a
magical historian and the author of A History of Magic. Her
book is used in the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
class of the same name, taught by Professor Binns. She lived
in Godric's Hollow, and died in 1997, after which her corpse
was animated by Lord Voldemort to contain his magical familiar
Nagini. Bathilda was also the great-aunt of Gellert Grindelwald,
the infamous dark wizard who was defeated by Albus Dumbledore.
If you check her out online there is more about her.






From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb 25 17:49:40 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:49:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik81e1+f8a6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <763954.607.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190135

> Geoff:
> <snip> I didn't think that you were speculating, June. I was just
adding my two pennyworth to the question of names. My final comment
was because some of JKR's naming has been carefully worked out. For
instance, you have the humorous ones like Umbridge, Durmstrang or
Grimmauld. And those where she subtly changes the meaning of a word
as in Disillusion or Apparition. I think she must have used the town
> and regional names because she like the sound of them...


June:
She has come up with some amazing names for people, things and
villages in her books, she obviously does her homework as well as
having an amazing imagination as some of the names are made up. I
myself when I read the name Umbridge had actually misread it and
thought it said Uxbridge which is a small town in Canada that I
used to live near (however and I could be wrong I think it may
have been taken from a name in England) and have always wondered
if she had actually taken the name Uxbridge and just changed the
spelling around to come up with Umbridge. Just a thought I had
nothing to do with HP reality, lol.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb 25 18:10:50 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:10:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Underage/misuse of magic (was Re: Percy and Pyramids)
In-Reply-To: <ik8i9i+v0cl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <267223.1800.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190136

> Carol responds:
> <snip> As for the pyramid, it would have taken magic to shut
Percy in the pyramid, so I doubt that underage magic is a concern.
(The Twins perform magic all the time under cover of the adults
with them; in the Weasley household, underage magic or magic
performed in the presence of a minor is an everyday occurrence.
(Remember, the Ministry didn't know that Dobby had performed the
Hover Charm in CoS, only that it had occurred in the Dursley
household in the presence of a minor Wizard--and in the presence
of Muggles, which was probably more serious.) And it's unlikely
that the Ministry's powers of detection reach as far as Egypt.
> <snip>


June:
One thing that I always had issues with was in Order of the Phoenix
when they were berating Harry in court about using magic in front of
a muggle. Ok I understand that using magic in front of a muggle is a
big no-no and they did not believe the story about the dementors,
however does it not make sense that if he is going to use magic and
his cousin sees him do it that it may not be that bad of an offence
as obviously his own cousin whom he is living with would probably
know he is a wizard. As I say, I totally understand the law but one
would think that they would not be as upset over him using magic in
front of a muggle who (in most cases such as Hermione's with her
parents) who would likely know a bit about magic any way just from
living with a wizard/witch.






From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 25 19:38:45 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:38:45 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikFR9kfE3dy=q1giFY2kBDJh6jh83=+9YgK+g2n@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ik90g5+i9l7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190137

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Fenney <fenneyml at ...> wrote:

Margie:
 
> The page about Snape on the Harry Potter Lexicon website (
> http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/snape.html)  says:

<snip>

> *'Snape' meaning:* JKR says "Snape is an English village" ([image: WEB LINK]
> eT <http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/fall00-etoys.html>), probably
> the one in North Yorkshire near Hadrian's (aka Severus') Wall. This village
> also has a '[image: WEB LINK]Snape
> Castle<http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/slhg/page2.phtml>.'
> There is another Snape Village that is near Saxmundham, northeast of Ipswich
> near the Alde River.

<snip>


Geoff;
I think I would disagree with with the Lexicon on this. If you speak to 
any UK resident who has some knowledge of English place names, unless
they happen to live in North Yorkshire, Snape  would immediately be 
connected to the one I already mentioned because of the world famous
Maltings centre and its connection to Benjamin Britten, the greatest English 
composer of the latter part of the 20th century.

I have to say that I am sometimes suspicious of the Lexicon because it is 
compiled by a non-British author. Another piece of information Margie 
quotes is the comment about the "other Snape" being in North Yorkshire 
near Hadrian's Wall.

The Snape involved is near Bedale, which is just west of the main A1 and 
is indeed in North Yorkshire. However, Hadrian's Wall is north of Newcastle
-on-Tyne and well into Northumberland, its nearest point to Snape being 
probably sixty miles! As a result, I am do not feel overwhelmed by the 
accuracy of the jnformation.
:-(

Margie:
> and if you go to the referred to page of JKR quotes 
 "Dumbledore" is an old English word for "bumblebee,"

Geoff:
In Porlock, a village in west Somerset, where I lived for over 10 years until 
2010, there is a house called "Dumbledory" which was connected with the 
village beekeeper.

As I said previously, I am highly amused by the many names which are plays 
on words.




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 25 19:47:05 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:47:05 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <763954.607.qm@web113912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ik90vp+2tko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190138

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:

June:
> She has come up with some amazing names for people, things and
> villages in her books, she obviously does her homework as well as
> having an amazing imagination as some of the names are made up. I
> myself when I read the name Umbridge had actually misread it and
> thought it said Uxbridge which is a small town in Canada that I
> used to live near (however and I could be wrong I think it may
> have been taken from a name in England) and have always wondered
> if she had actually taken the name Uxbridge and just changed the
> spelling around to come up with Umbridge. 

Geoff:
Just for information, if she had used Uxbridge, it would be probably be 
from the West London suburb of that name, fairly close to Heathrow. I 
think the Canadians swiped Uxbridge for themselves because an early 
settler came from there....

However, when the genteel, polite and loveable character emerged in 
OOTP. the name "Umbridge" was generally accepted by group members 
at that time as being a play on words with "umbrage". To "take umbrage" 
means to be offended or annoyed by someone and certainly a lot of 
Hogwartians were willing to do just that with this delightful lady.





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 25 20:24:52 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:24:52 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik81e1+f8a6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ik936k+73jv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190139



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> ....
>  
> > ...
> 
> Geoff:
> ... JKR's naming has been carefully worked out. For instance, you 
> have the humorous ones like Umbridge, Durmstrang or Grimmauld. And 
> those where she subtly changes the meaning of a word as in 
> Disillusion or Apparition. I think she must have used the town
> and regional names because she like the sound of them... 
> 
> Who knows? 
> <loud offstage whisper of 'JKR knows'>.
> :-)
>

Steve:

Let's not forget Malfoy which means Bad Faith. 

But let us also not forget how hard it is to name characters,
even if you are NOT trying to have Hidden significances to the
name. 

While I don't do much writing, I find myself watching movie
credits for cool names, walking though graveyards, looking
through phone books, looking though list of famous Russian, 
English, Scottish, Irish authors, directories of Surnames in
Britain, maps, and countless other sources just to find the right
name for a character.

Believe it or not, you do not just assign names to characters
willy-nilly. It is more like each character already has a name,
and it is up to you, the author, to discover what it is. 

I remember one day, walking around Minneapolis, through grocery
store, drug stores, kitchen store, book stores, etc... just
hoping to find a name for a given character. When I walked
by a tobacco shop and looked in, I saw a pack of British
DUNHILL cigarettes, and realized I found his name.

In another case, I spend several weeks trying to name a 
Quidditch team, for a story I was planning. 

And keep in mind, I was not trying to have any hidden 
significants in the names. Just to come up with names that
fit the characters. It is not an easy process.

And for JRK to have has so many characters whose names have
hidden significance as well as her knowledge of folklore,
myth, and fairtales, it truly stupendous. 

Sorry, just rambling. 

Steve/bboyminn





From lynde at post.com  Fri Feb 25 22:02:07 2011
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:02:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets of Harry's past - At the Last Moment
In-Reply-To: <4D674356.1010205@comcast.net>
References: <ik1k76+kegc@eGroups.com> <4D649B70.8070403@comcast.net> <8CDA2AB2CB2B540-338-677A@web-mmc-d05.sysops.aol.com> <4D674356.1010205@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <8CDA34EC7526763-1964-B02F@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190140








> Lynda: My immediate thought was, Uncle Vernon was a jerk and acted in character. Why would I expect such a person to act any differently than he did? Harry does have access to his things again throughout the series. I know that from understanding continuity and the way Rowling writes. Once again--I do not have to be told that characters in the course of a novel engage in such mundane activities as bathing, going to the bathroom, sleeping, looking at pictures of family members to understand that if they are living "normal" lives they are doing such things, and frankly books that depict all those mundane activities are deadly bores.
>
> Lynda
Shelley now:
Ummm yeah, except in this case, the photo book is a clue to something 
that happens later in the series

Lynda: 

Which is why Rowling let us know that Harry still had the photo album and he looked through it occasionally. I reiterate that Rowling was making a point that VD was a jerk, or worse and that his behavior was out of place. That was more important to her as a writer in the telling of her story at that point. I also contend that, like so many stories, Harry has to figure things out on his own throughout the series, not with help from a lot of adults. That's why she didn't have adults offering Harry help.

Lynda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lynde at post.com  Fri Feb 25 22:04:48 2011
From: lynde at post.com (lynde at post.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:04:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Percy and Pyramids
In-Reply-To: <993646.37579.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CDA34F275FCB7D-1964-B056@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190141






Lynda:  I've always thought that Percy was Molly's favorite, more than likely, and haven't seen any contempt in her attitude toward him.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Feb 25 22:12:32 2011
From: ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk (Ffred Clegg)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 22:12:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <1298626216.743.51526.m7@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1298626216.743.51526.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <581598.92422.qm@web24704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190142

1c. Re: Severus
? ? Posted by: "June Ewing" doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca doctorwhofan02
? ? Date: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:11 pm ((PST))

>Wow that does sound like it could have been the origin. I read a 
>few years back that some of the names came from places in England 
>either old or recent and if I am remembering correctly Snape is 
>a small town some where in England. Could be that what you found 
>could be where the rest of his name came from also. And I would 
>bet you are correct about this person supplying the name for 
>Lucius as well.

Although there's an English town called Snape, the English surname is actually 
more common in Lancashire than in East Anglia, early census results show it as 
being very specific to that county.

Puts the "Spinners End" sections into context, certainly

gwyn eich byd

Ffred


      



From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 26 13:10:41 2011
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 13:10:41 -0000
Subject: Underage/misuse of magic (was Re: Percy and Pyramids)
In-Reply-To: <267223.1800.qm@web113913.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ikau4h+g5d6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190143



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Carol responds:
> > <snip> As for the pyramid, it would have taken magic to shut
> Percy in the pyramid, so I doubt that underage magic is a concern.
> (The Twins perform magic all the time under cover of the adults
> with them; in the Weasley household, underage magic or magic
> performed in the presence of a minor is an everyday occurrence.
> (Remember, the Ministry didn't know that Dobby had performed the
> Hover Charm in CoS, only that it had occurred in the Dursley
> household in the presence of a minor Wizard--and in the presence
> of Muggles, which was probably more serious.) And it's unlikely
> that the Ministry's powers of detection reach as far as Egypt.
> > <snip>
> 
> 
> June:
> One thing that I always had issues with was in Order of the Phoenix
> when they were berating Harry in court about using magic in front of
> a muggle. Ok I understand that using magic in front of a muggle is a
> big no-no and they did not believe the story about the dementors,
> however does it not make sense that if he is going to use magic and
> his cousin sees him do it that it may not be that bad of an offence
> as obviously his own cousin whom he is living with would probably
> know he is a wizard. As I say, I totally understand the law but one
> would think that they would not be as upset over him using magic in
> front of a muggle who (in most cases such as Hermione's with her
> parents) who would likely know a bit about magic any way just from
> living with a wizard/witch.
>

Annemehr:

Well, for one thing, government officials often enforce rules without making use of any common sense whatever.  It's like the time we were in a drought and some official stopped people from running the fountain in the pond in their yard.  This fountain wasn't *using* any water, just squirting it up into the air and it fell right back into the pond.  Which wasn't connected to the rest of the water supply anyway.  But it was apparently "against the rule."

And it's not quite true that "they" didn't believe the story about the dementors since Umbridge is the one who sent them.  No one else knew that, but she certainly did.

But what was really going on was that Harry was being railroaded.  Fudge wanted him expelled and silenced so he wouldn't spread panic about Voldemort being back.  The trial was a sham.  Since underage wizards *are* allowed to use magic in an emergency, they could not afford to admit to the possibility of dementors in the area.  It had nothing to do with finding the truth.  That's why Dumbledore had to have Arabella Figg lie about seeing the dementors -- to provide and "eyewitness" account that tipped the scales to justice for Harry.

I actually really like that scene.  Arabella recognized from her feelings that there were dementors there, and knew Harry was perfectly innocent and had done very well, but to really convince a majority to vote with Harry and prevent a terrible injustice, she felt she had to add a lie.  It's a nice illustration of the dilemma that can come up between doing the right thing and following a set of rules (no matter how much you believe in them generally).

Annemehr





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Feb 26 14:34:44 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:34:44 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik81e1+f8a6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ikb324+pf1e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190144

Geoff:
 I think she must have used the town and regional names 
> because she like the sound of them... 
> 
> Who knows? 
> <loud offstage whisper of 'JKR knows'>.
> :-)
>

Potioncat:
Yes, and she also knows what evil lurks in the hearts of wizards...
:-)

Someone else has already mentioned that JKR collected names for meanings and sounds. I recall some story about "Hogwarts." It seems a friend reminded her that they had seen a hogwarts lily at a flower show--although she had forgotten that. She had simply liked the word and used it for the name of the wizarding school.

Has anyone ever worked out how many characters or place names in the series? Clearly she put a great deal of thought into some names and a bit less in others. Still, it's curious that she forgot Lily's maiden name was Evans and gave it to a throw away character as well.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Feb 26 18:02:09 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:02:09 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ikb324+pf1e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ikbf71+6ha7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190145


> >
> 
> Potioncat:
> Has anyone ever worked out how many characters or place names in the series? Clearly she put a great deal of thought into some names and a bit less in others. Still, it's curious that she forgot Lily's maiden name was Evans and gave it to a throw away character as well.
>
Pippin:
Jim Dale or Stephen Frye may have -- they had to figure out how to pronounce them all. :)

I don't believe JKR forgot Lily's maiden name was Evans, she just misjudged the effect. I think she was going for the idea that Petunia Dursley, nee Evans, who complains that Harry Potter is such a common name, had a common name herself. 

Pippin






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 26 18:25:24 2011
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:25:24 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik8r55+c5fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ikbgik+u3jc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190146



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
Carol earlier:
> > 
> > I don't remember a Bagshot in the HP books. Can you refresh my memory? <snip>
> 
> Geoff:
> Bathilda Bagshot was the renowned author of "A History of Magic", a standard Hogwarts textbook and was presumably killed when Voldemort used her body or a snake Transfigured into a form of it to attack and try to capture Harry at Godric's Hollow. (DH "Bathilda's Secret" p.278 et seq. UK edition)
>
Carol again:

Thanks for refreshing my memory. Actually, just the name would have done it. Possibly, I *want* to forget the horrible Nagini/Bathilda scene in DH?

Carol, who finds the three Nagini scenes in DH to be among the most horrible in the entire series




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Feb 26 18:58:34 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 26 Feb 2011 18:58:34 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/27/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1298746714.542.4021.m12@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190147

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 27, 2011
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
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From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sat Feb 26 20:23:08 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 20:23:08 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ikbf71+6ha7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ikbnfc+j71b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190148



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:

Potioncat:
> > Has anyone ever worked out how many characters or place names in the series? Clearly she put a great deal of thought into some names and a bit less in others. Still, it's curious that she forgot Lily's maiden name was Evans and gave it to a throw away character as well.

Pippin:
> Jim Dale or Stephen Fry may have -- they had to figure out how to pronounce them all. :)
 
> I don't believe JKR forgot Lily's maiden name was Evans, she just misjudged the effect. I think she was going for the idea that Petunia Dursley, nee Evans, who complains that Harry Potter is such a common name, had a common name herself. 

Geoff:
That may be so, but I wonder if JKR introduced Mark Evans at the beginning of 
OOTP as a very tongue-in-cheek action?

How many of you recall the long discussion which went on as to whether he was 
a relative when the Dursleys were supposed to be the only ones and suggestions 
that he belonged to a very distant family link and had not been considered in Dumbledore's calculations?




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Feb 27 02:38:42 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 02:38:42 -0000
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ikbnfc+j71b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ikcdfi+qj3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190149


> Geoff:
> That may be so, but I wonder if JKR introduced Mark Evans at the beginning of 
> OOTP as a very tongue-in-cheek action?
> 
> How many of you recall the long discussion which went on as to whether he was 
> a relative when the Dursleys were supposed to be the only ones and suggestions 
> that he belonged to a very distant family link and had not been considered in Dumbledore's calculations?
>
Potioncat:
You mean, on purpose? That could be. I recall her funny post on her websie, saying her family had moved to South America as she prepared to notify her fans that Marc was not related to Harry I always took it at face value and thought she'd forgotten the name.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Feb 27 01:09:13 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 17:09:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <ik90vp+2tko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <724686.29974.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

> Geoff:
> Just for information, if she had used Uxbridge, it would be
> probably be from the West London suburb of that name, fairly
> close to Heathrow. I think the Canadians swiped Uxbridge for
> themselves because an early settler came from there....
>
> However, when the genteel, polite and loveable character
> emerged in OOTP. the name "Umbridge" was generally accepted
> by group members at that time as being a play on words with
> "umbrage". To "take umbrage" means to be offended or annoyed
> by someone and certainly a lot of Hogwartians were willing to
> do just that with this delightful lady.


June:
I have no doubt that Uxbridge was stolen from England lol. We
also have Cambridge, London, Surrey and many others. I even
grew up just down the street from Sherwood Forest. However
Canada was discovered because an Englishman and a Frenchman
got lost looking for India?and we were under British rule?for
years and still fly the British flag so that could have a lot
to do with us having so many British names in our?cities and
towns (and why we have a Paris too).




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Feb 27 01:20:14 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 17:20:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Severus
In-Reply-To: <581598.92422.qm@web24704.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <997862.24992.qm@web113909.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190151

> Ffred:
> Although there's an English town called Snape, the English
> surname is actually more common in Lancashire than in East
> Anglia, early census results show it as being very specific
> to that county.
>
> Puts the "Spinners End" sections into context, certainly.


June:
It does not surprise me to learn that while there are villages
named Snape that there are also people with the surname Snape.
It is common for streets, villages and small towns to be named
after someone if they have done some thing rememborable. My own
grandfather has a street in Toronto named after him. I was just
pointing out that I had read somewhere that the name Snape was
taken from a small villiage and as someone has already pointed
out I was not wrong on that as she found the very story I was
talking about where JKR stated that the name was taken from a
small village.












From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 27 17:55:09 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 27 Feb 2011 17:55:09 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/27/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1298829309.561.1480.m12@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190152

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 27, 2011
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
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12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



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From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Feb 27 20:24:08 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:24:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Underage/misuse of magic (was Re: Percy and Pyramids)
In-Reply-To: <ikau4h+g5d6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <212515.86623.qm@web113910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190153

> Annemehr:
> <snip> And it's not quite true that "they" didn't believe the
story about the dementors since Umbridge is the one who sent them.
> No one else knew that, but she certainly did.
>
> But what was really going on was that Harry was being railroaded.
Fudge wanted him expelled and silenced so he wouldn't spread panic
about Voldemort being back. The trial was a sham. Since underage
wizards *are* allowed to use magic in an emergency, they could not
afford to admit to the possibility of dementors in the area. It
had nothing to do with finding the truth. That's why Dumbledore
had to have Arabella Figg lie about seeing the dementors -- to
provide and "eyewitness" account that tipped the scales to justice
> for Harry.
>
> I actually really like that scene. Arabella recognized from her
feelings that there were dementors there, and knew Harry was
perfectly innocent and had done very well, but to really convince
a majority to vote with Harry and prevent a terrible injustice,
she felt she had to add a lie. It's a nice illustration of the
dilemma that can come up between doing the right thing and following
> a set of rules (no matter how much you believe in them generally).


June:
I don't think she lied. I reread the chapters involved here and I
think it could be taken either way depending on how the reader sees
it but I think she did see the Dementors as they were gliding away
from Harry and Dudley and what she said in court was the truth. Look
at it this way. Mrs. Figg is a squib and there are lots of wizards
and witches at this point still who believe in Dumbledore. If he
wanted someone to lie on the stand I would expect he would have
gotten a witch or wizard and possibly more than one witness. Also
Umbridge was the only person who knew the dementors where there
because as you (rightfully) said she had sent them after Harry. The
rest of the council had no idea what had happened and did not believe
him, however as I believe you also mentioned they did want him out of
the way and since Fudge had no problem with believing him in the past
it would make sense that he didn't believe him because he didn't want
to believe him. I believe it is mentioned somewhere in the book that
to believe Harry was to accept that Voldemort was back and no one
wanted that.



From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Feb 27 20:29:30 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:29:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Severus / character, place names
In-Reply-To: <ikb324+pf1e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <73698.36348.qm@web113904.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190154

> Potioncat:
> <snip> Has anyone ever worked out how many characters or place
names in the series? Clearly she put a great deal of thought into
some names and a bit less in others. Still, it's curious that she
forgot Lily's maiden name was Evans and gave it to a throw away
> character as well.


June:
Maybe she didn't forget that Lily's maiden name was Evans. Maybe
she gave the name to Mark Evans because she wanted to give us
something to think about. Did anyone else think there may have
been a connection there? I actually have a friend named Mark Evans
and I tease him about being beat up by Dudley Dursley, lol.








From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Sun Feb 27 21:24:40 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:24:40 -0000
Subject: Names and things...
Message-ID: <ikefeo+n86d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190155


June:
> I have no doubt that Uxbridge was stolen from England lol. We
> also have Cambridge, London, Surrey and many others. I even
> grew up just down the street from Sherwood Forest. 

Geoff:
I must be careful as come of these discussions are edging close to 
being OT but I shall try to keep on the right side. I was joking to an 
extent when I said that Uxbridge was swiped by the Canadians
. 
I've got to be careful because I'm paying my first visit to North 
America, to Toronto in May because my eldest son took up a 
past there last year; I must be careful not to ruffle the natives'
feathers.
:-)

June:
> It does not surprise me to learn that while there are villages
> named Snape that there are also people with the surname Snape.
> It is common for streets, villages and small towns to be named
> after someone if they have done some thing rememborable. My own
> grandfather has a street in Toronto named after him. I was just
> pointing out that I had read somewhere that the name Snape was
> taken from a small village and as someone has already pointed
> out I was not wrong on that as she found the very story I was
> talking about where JKR stated that the name was taken from a
> small village.

Geoff
I think there is a two-way traffic here. Some places take their names 
from a person and vice-versa some family names come from places. 
I can see that, for example in the 19th century, pioneers moving 
across North America might well give a name to a new settlement. 
So, strictly as an imaginary example, you might find Jenkins Creek 
or David's Hollow. 

Certainly in the UK ? and probably in a lot of mediaeval Europe as 
well ? it was not uncommon for a person to be designated by an 
attribute of their work or home. William the Conqueror, who invaded 
in 1066, was often referred to as William of Normandy and there are 
cases of people recorded maybe as something likeaRobert of Wood's 
End,  Alain the Wheelwright or Matthew the Fuller; these latter three 
again being imaginary examples. Over time, these  became accepted 
as the family names so you will find names which are also those of 
geographical places. I have known folk with family names England, 
English, Welsh, Irish, Lancashire and York often met when I was teaching. 
It is very common in England to find people with "job" names ending 
in "-er". Farmer, Baker, Butcher, *Potter* (even!) which also include 
some not quite so recognisable as Cooper, Fletcher and my own name 
Bannister.

Some authors do not worry too much about their names; some do. The 
classic example is, of course, Tolkien whose books starting with what
became "The Silmarillion" used them primarily as a vehicle for his 
invention of the Elvish languages and he, being a scholar and Professor 
in Mediaeval and Old English drew on those resources, creating a fictional
genealogy for them.

Now, Jo Rowling hasn't used that approach but she has spent time with 
her names often developing humorous results ? such as Diagon Alley, 
Grimmauld Place, Durmstrang but in other places names which seem 
eminently suitable to the characters involved, for example the list of 
books and authors for Hogwarts. I often chuckle over `Magical Theory"
 by Adelbert Waffling or "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger 
to mention but two. Add in names like Malfoy while Pius Thicknesse 
and Cornelius Fudge as politicians' names had me rolling in the aisles. 

Returning to Snape, who was responsible for starting all this, bless him, 
I think that, as someone has commented in the past, Severus Snape as 
a combination of names has a greasy feel to it and the alliterative 
sibilants at the beginning give a decided snake-like feel.When I first 
met him in PS, I though "Aha, someone to dislike". But, to look again at 
his surname, I still feel that the Lexicon got it wrong in the Snape they 
settled on in North Yorkshire. I lived in Lancashire until I was nine and 
my father came from North Yorks but I never knew of this Snape until 
this Lexicon point came up. It is only a tiny place and JKR, as I did, would 
most probably take on board the Snape in East Anglia because of its 
worldwide renown plus the Lexicon's awful gaffe in placing the Northern 
Snape near Hadrian's Wall.

The only evidence we have is that the Lexicon comments: "JKR says `Snape 
is an English village'" but if you then follow there link to the eToys interview 
transcript, etoys.com, Autumn 2000, JKR said: "'Snape' is the name of a 
place in England". Full stop. In case you haven't realised, I am passionate 
about the etymology of names, both real world and fictional.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb 28 15:21:46 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:21:46 -0000
Subject: Severus / character, place names
In-Reply-To: <73698.36348.qm@web113904.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ikgeia+4ml8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190156


> June:
> Maybe she didn't forget that Lily's maiden name was Evans. Maybe
> she gave the name to Mark Evans because she wanted to give us
> something to think about. Did anyone else think there may have
> been a connection there? I actually have a friend named Mark Evans
> and I tease him about being beat up by Dudley Dursley, lol.
>

Pippin:
Oh, there was loads of speculation back in the day. IIRC, JKR said in her explanation that she should have realized the appearance of Sirius Black as a casual mention early on would prime us to expect something similar to happen again. That's exactly what happened and we were all proud of ourselves for spotting this no doubt significant clue. 

 JKR probably thought she was safe in choosing "Evans"  because  she'd established that Harry couldn't possibly have any other living relatives besides the Dursleys. Dumbledore would only have left Harry with them as a last resort. 

Pippin


Pippin




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb 28 15:44:36 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:44:36 -0000
Subject: Underage/misuse of magic (was Re: Percy and Pyramids)
In-Reply-To: <ikau4h+g5d6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ikgft4+bk1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190157

 
> Annemehr:

> 
> I actually really like that scene.  Arabella recognized from her feelings that there were dementors there, and knew Harry was perfectly innocent and had done very well, but to really convince a majority to vote with Harry and prevent a terrible injustice, she felt she had to add a lie.  It's a nice illustration of the dilemma that can come up between doing the right thing and following a set of rules (no matter how much you believe in them generally).
> 

Pippin:
Which is exactly Percy's problem. He has too much respect for rules and systems, and not enough for the people they are supposed to protect. And of course he is a champion at denial: how else could anyone describe Umbridge as a delightful woman?

Still, I don't think we're supposed to give our unqualified admiration to the Twins either. Ron remarks as early as GoF that some of the things they do are dangerous, and they might do more dangerous things in their efforts to earn money. But it's not until the end of HBP that Ron gets worked up enough to plan on confronting them. Providing Peruvian Darkness Powder to Draco was the last straw. 

 We don't know whether Ron ever did it  or not, the point is he finally recognized that he ought to.

Pippin




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Feb 28 21:44:05 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:44:05 -0000
Subject: Severus / character, place names
In-Reply-To: <ikgeia+4ml8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ikh4v5+fe1d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190158

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:

June:
> > Maybe she didn't forget that Lily's maiden name was Evans. Maybe
> > she gave the name to Mark Evans because she wanted to give us
> > something to think about. Did anyone else think there may have
> > been a connection there? I actually have a friend named Mark Evans
> > and I tease him about being beat up by Dudley Dursley, lol.
 
Pippin:
> Oh, there was loads of speculation back in the day. IIRC, JKR said in her explanation that she should have realized the appearance of Sirius Black as a casual mention early on would prime us to expect something similar to happen again. That's exactly what happened and we were all proud of ourselves for spotting this no doubt significant clue. 
> 
>  JKR probably thought she was safe in choosing "Evans"  because  she'd established that Harry couldn't possibly have any other living relatives besides the Dursleys. Dumbledore would only have left Harry with them as a last resort. 

Geoff:
I remember getting very cross when she revealed that because I wrote a long 
post pointing out that Harry could have relatives because there could be very 
distant ones of whom Dumbledore knew nothing.

I can cite an instance in my own family. When I was 17, I suddenly discovered 
that I had an aunt and five cousins because my father had been estranged 
from his family before WW2, had said nothing to my mother and then, out of
the  blued, a letter arrived form his sister in York; she had been trying to trace
him through Army records. Again, my younger son was tracing family records
a few years ago and found another Bannister quite close to us where the family
line had diverged in the 1800s. I cited other examples in my post.

If anyone wants to my (failed) degree thesis the post is 85255 "The Whole Evans 
Theory". I was in my best professorial mode and then JKR torpedoed it.....
:-(

<sob>