From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jan 1 00:30:21 2011 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 00:30:21 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189945 > Questions. > > 1. Harry learning how to produce a Patronus was one of the moments in the book > when I was so very proud of him. What are your "being proud of Harry" moments? Potioncat: I originally hesitated to say I was proud he named his son for Severus, but since others have, I'll admit to it. Clearly, no one else was around to care. Snape is dead, most likely his parents are too. This was one way of keeping a memory of Snape alive. (and of DD, too) > > 2. Why wasn't Harry's happy memory in this chapter enough to produce a > corporeal Patronus? Potioncat: As others have said, Harry wanted to hear his parents' voices. Also, it takes more than just a happy memory, though the magic seems to need a particularly strongly happy memory. If the memory itself was enough, more people could cast a Patronus. I think this is one reason Snape teaches a different method of protection from Dementors. > 3. If Dementor can suck a person's soul from them, does it mean that > Potterverse does not believe in souls' immortality? If a Dementor dies > somehow, would the soul be released? Lupin tells Harry that a soul is gone > forever, lost. Where is it lost in your opinion? Potioncat: Lots of posts have already offered excellent ideas. I think this also reflects JRK's uncertainties about life after death and of aspects of her faith. (Doubts she's admitted in interviews.) > > 4. What is behind Lupin's asking Harry whether anybody deserves the > Dementor's kiss? Is he hesitant to believe in Sirius' guilt or he is simply not > a believer in such punishment? Any other suggestions? Potioncat: I think Lupin does not believe in this punishment?for the same reasons that other posts have brought up. I agree with Pippin that at this time, he does believe that Black was guilty. Yet Lupin does not think he deserves such a fate?and Lupin was one of the victims of the betrayal. > > 5. Whose side you were on when Harry and Ron and Hermione were at odds if > anybody's? Potioncat: I'm a cat person. (no surprise there) I tolerate dogs but I cannot stand any sort of rodent. (even the cute kinds, and rats are not cute.) That said, I thought Hermione showed a severe lack of compassion for Ron. She should have made an effort to restrain Crookshanks---although we all know now that Crookshanks didn't hurt Scabbers. > > 6. Were you suspicious as to how Hermione is getting to all her classes at the > time? Potioncat: Rushed right past it myself. Never gave it a thought. > Merry Christmas to all who celebrates! Potioncat: Happy New Year, everyone! From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jan 1 00:36:01 2011 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 00:36:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189946 > > Pippin: > According to Snape, the ghost is an "imprint" of the departed soul. It seems to be made of the same quasi-material silvery stuff that composes patronuses and extracted memories. To me, it sounds as if the wizard's actual soul may eventually "go on" -- but the ghost self never can. > Potioncat: I found Snape's explanation confusing when comparted to Nick's explanation. If the ghost is an imprint, then it is similar to a portrait. I had thought the ghost was the soul that had not gone on. So, is it an imprint, with a sort of memory and a false sense of self? or is it real? I feel better thinking that the real Myrtle exists in an afterlife, perhaps joined by her parents, than to think the poor child will haunt Hogwarts forever. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 1 18:58:49 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Jan 2011 18:58:49 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/2/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1293908329.8.1796.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189947 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 2, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 2 17:56:08 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 Jan 2011 17:56:08 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/2/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1293990968.540.28839.m11@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189948 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 2, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jan 3 03:11:24 2011 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 03:11:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189949 > Potioncat: > I originally hesitated to say I was proud he named his son for Severus, but since others have, I'll admit to it. Clearly, no one else was around to care. Snape is dead, most likely his parents are too. This was one way of keeping a memory of Snape alive. (and of DD, too) > Pippin: Could you explain what you mean by "no one else was around to care"? Surely all the older generation on the platform remembered Snape vividly. And we all know how obsessive fans are (who, us?) -- those people gawking at Harry on the platform will surely know every detail of their hero's life that's a matter of record, including what he named his son and why. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jan 3 16:08:05 2011 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 16:08:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189950 > Potioncat: > I found Snape's explanation confusing when comparted to Nick's explanation. If the ghost is an imprint, then it is similar to a portrait. I had thought the ghost was the soul that had not gone on. So, is it an imprint, with a sort of memory and a false sense of self? or is it real? I feel better thinking that the real Myrtle exists in an afterlife, perhaps joined by her parents, than to think the poor child will haunt Hogwarts forever. > Pippin: I find it a comforting thought as well. But I don't think Nick and Myrtle would. I can imagine Nick saying frostily that he's heard of this theory and finds it rather tactless, to say the least. Ghostly feelings seem real enough to ghosts, and whose to say they don't feel them as their flesh and blood selves did? I doubt that Myrtle would feel better to know that her "real" self is enjoying a happier afterlife than she is. The thing is, if you are writing about a world where children have choices and choices matter, then some of them have to turn out badly and things are not always set right in the end, or what difference does it make? Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jan 5 00:57:26 2011 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 00:57:26 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189951 > Pippin: > I find it a comforting thought as well. But I don't think Nick and Myrtle would. I can imagine Nick saying frostily that he's heard of this theory and finds it rather tactless, to say the least. Ghostly feelings seem real enough to ghosts, and whose to say they don't feel them as their flesh and blood selves did? I doubt that Myrtle would feel better to know that her "real" self is enjoying a happier afterlife than she is. > > Potioncat: Good point. That reminds me of a scifi story in which people are able to send a copy of themselves into dangerous situations. They go into a booth for a moment and step out. Only at the same time the copy steps out and is shocked to find himself on Mars or wherever. The copy believes himself to be the original version. What do you think the portraits think of themselves? To me they are interactive portraits of headmasters, but do they think they are real? Honestly, Nick and Myrtle and the other ghosts seem very real to me--not just imprints at all. Was Snape wrong? From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jan 5 00:51:55 2011 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 00:51:55 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189952 > Pippin: > Could you explain what you mean by "no one else was around to care"? Surely all the older generation on the platform remembered Snape vividly. And we all know how obsessive fans are (who, us?) -- those people gawking at Harry on the platform will surely know every detail of their hero's life that's a matter of record, including what he named his son and why. > > Pippin Potioncat: What I meant was that Harry did this for Snape, but Snape wasn't around to know about it. None of Snape's family was around. So Harry repaid Snape, but Snape would never know. Does anyone alive care that Harry did this? Probably not. Yet, many people would know what Harry Potter's son was named and would realize the role Snape played. It was a meaningful gesture on Harry's part. From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jan 5 10:52:21 2011 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:52:21 -0000 Subject: The impact of SWM (very long) In-Reply-To: <256291.44288.qm@web113910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189953 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing wrote: > > > One more thing. Hagrid had said that every witch or wizard who > turned evil had been in Slytherin. That doesn't mean that every > Slytherin is?evil. Also he either didn't want to mention or forgot > that there was at least one who was not from Slytherin. At that > time everyone thought it was Sirius but it turned out to be > Wormtail, both of whom were from Gryffindor. Also let's not forget > Sirius' brother Regulus who was a Slytherin but turned good. Very true! And also, Horace Slughorn may be out for himself and making sure he helps all the students he thinks will one day help him, but he's pretty likable, really, and fights on the right side in the end. One more thing: IMO, Regulus didn't turn good, he WAS good. He was the good, obedient son who went into Slytherin because it was the family tradition and what his parents wanted; Sirius was the rebel. When Regulus joined the Death Eaters it was also the thing the family wanted of him. In the end, he couldn't do it any more. Just my opinion. :-) > From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jan 5 16:51:00 2011 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:51:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189954 > Potioncat: > Good point. That reminds me of a scifi story in which people are able to send a copy of themselves into dangerous situations. They go into a booth for a moment and step out. Only at the same time the copy steps out and is shocked to find himself on Mars or wherever. The copy believes himself to be the original version. > > What do you think the portraits think of themselves? To me they are interactive portraits of headmasters, but do they think they are real? Honestly, Nick and Myrtle and the other ghosts seem very real to me--not just imprints at all. > Pippin: Maybe the problem is the way we are using the word "real" . The body Myrtle had as a living girl remained to be discovered in the bathroom, yet her ghost occupies a body which is the silvery image of it as it was when she died, spots, glasses and all, as real as anything else in the WW. It could be the same with the soul. The soul that Myrtle had as a living girl went on, but at the same time left its imprint on the magical world as a ghost. It's interesting to think that the ghost preserves things that the original soul might be glad to leave behind. I doubt that Nick's departed soul cares that he wasn't properly decapitated --and that body must have fallen to dust, head and all, a long time ago. JKR said somewhere that the headmaster portraits are kind of special, and most portraits don't do more than utter catchphrases. I tend to think the castle portraits are part of the magic of the castle, and most wizards aren't aware of how capable they are. I don't think Fudge and Scrimgeour know that the headmaster portraits at the Ministry and St Mungo's can spy on them. Pippin From beccy.talmy at googlemail.com Wed Jan 5 18:58:59 2011 From: beccy.talmy at googlemail.com (Beccy Talmy) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 20:58:59 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 12: The Pat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189955 > > Potioncat: > > What do you think the portraits think of themselves? > > To me they are interactive portraits of headmasters, but do > > they think they are real? Honestly, Nick and Myrtle and the > > other ghosts seem very real to me--not just imprints at all. > > Pippin: > Maybe the problem is the way we are using the word "real" . > The body Myrtle had as a living girl remained to be discovered > in the bathroom, yet her ghost occupies a body which is the > silvery image of it as it was when she died, spots, glasses > and all, as real as anything else in the WW. It could be the > same with the soul. The soul that Myrtle had as a living girl > went on, but at the same time left its imprint on the magical > world as a ghost. > > It's interesting to think that the ghost preserves things that > the original soul might be glad to leave behind. I doubt that > Nick's departed soul cares that he wasn't properly decapitated > --and that body must have fallen to dust, head and all, a long > time ago. Hello, Isn't the point more that people who choose to become ghosts choose to remain on earth as an imprint of a living being rather than going on and embracing death? So that Nick's explanation of being a ghost matches up to the word 'imprint' in Snape's, but only if by 'imprint' we mean 'less than alive but not in the afterlife' rather than 'imprint while the real thing has gone on'? And Snape is distinguishing ghosts from inferi, so the point is that ghosts are incorporeal but do contain the person who has died, whereas inferi are corporeal but the person has gone on? Truth. -- 'It is the choices society makes that causes someone to be disabled. Organise things differently, and they are suddenly enabled.' From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 8 18:58:23 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 8 Jan 2011 18:58:23 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/9/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1294513103.491.74510.m16@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189956 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 9, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 9 17:55:42 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 9 Jan 2011 17:55:42 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/9/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1294595742.477.84534.m10@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189957 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 9, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Fri Jan 14 00:37:31 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (geoff_bannister) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 00:37:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189958 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is alsobeing delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" isset to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space): HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw Ron and Hermione quarrel violently about the evidence that Crookshank has eaten Scabbers. Hermione is vehement about the Kneazle's innocence and even rounds on Harry, accusing him of prejudice, when he attempts to support Ron. Harry takes Ron to the team's final practice to cheer him up and Madam Hooch waxes lyrical over Harry's Firebolt. Oliver Wood tells the team that Cho Chang is playing as the Ravenclaw Seeker. They turn to practice and Harry plays at his best on the new broom. He goes for a walk around the stadium with Ron and is frightened to see eyes gleaming in the dark; it turns out to be Crookshanks prowling around. Harry realises that he thought the eyes were those of the Grim. Harry takes the Firebolt to breakfast on the following morning where it creates much interest and a sarcastic exchange of insults between Harry and Draco. The match begins ands Harry finds he is being tailed by Cho, who blocks one attempt by Harry to capture the Snitch. He retaliates by luring her towards the ground and then, while chasing the Snitch, three Dementors appear on the ground looking at him. He fires a Patronus at them and then captures the Snitch to win. Remus Lupin comes up to him to congratulate him on his production of a Patronus and it then transpires that the "Dementors" were in fact members of Slytherin house, including Malfoy, dressed up to look like them. The house goes on to a party which is slightly spoiled by the continuation of Ron and Hermione's argument. After they have all gone to bed, Harry is woken from a strange dream by Ron screaming in terror. They all wake up to find that the hangings of his bed have been slashed, Ron claiming that it was done by Sirius Black. The house gathered in the Common Room when Percy arrives, followed by Professor McGonagall. They are dismissive of Ron's claims but, on asking Sir Cadogan, he reports that he had seen a man enter the Tower after giving him the passwords. It is then revealed that Neville had written down the passwords and left the list lying around. Questions. 1. Do you think that Hermione was right in accusing Ron of being prejudiced against Crookshanks? 2. Was it wise for Harry to intervene in the argument, even if he thought Ron was right? 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is he right in thinking that the creature exists or were the various apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his over- excited imagination? 4. Do you think that Cho is just using her flying ability to distract Harry or do you think she might be using her womanly wiles to affect him in other ways? 5. Were you surprised at the speed of Harry's reaction on seeing the Dementors? Would you have expected that he would have a similar reaction to that of the earlier Hufflepuff match? 6. How do you read Hermione's behaviour at the post-Ravenclaw match party? 7. Do you think Percy was too hasty in refusing to listen to Ron after the attack? Was this just a typical reaction from him? 8. What was your reaction on first reading about Neville's blunder? 9. Please add any questions which you might think are germane to the discussion. Geoff NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method =reportRows&tbl=33 Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 14 of Prisoner of Azkaban coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Goblet of Fire chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (without the space). From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 14 07:38:05 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 23:38:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <591762.24161.qm@web113909.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189959 > 1. Do you think that Hermione was right in accusing Ron of > being prejudiced against Crookshanks? June: Ron was prejudiced against Crookshanks, you see it all through the book. Ron did not like Crookshanks because Crookshanks had nearly scalped him when he jumped over him at their first meeting and his reaction when he realized that Hermione bought Crookshanks instead of an owl was "You actually bought that thing?" > 2. Was it wise for Harry to intervene in the argument, even if > he thought Ron was right? No, personally unless it was a life and death situation I would have stayed out of it and I would have been there for both of them as a friend. What he did made Hermione feel that she was being ganged up on and they really had no proof that Crookshanks had eaten Scabbers. > 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is > he right in thinking that the creature exists or were the > various apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his > over-excited imagination? The Grim turned out to be Sirius Black. > 4. Do you think that Cho is just using her flying ability to > distract Harry or do you think she might be using her womanly > wiles to affect him in other ways? She is the other team's seeker, she was trying to catch the snitch is all. > 5. Were you surprised at the speed of Harry's reaction on seeing > the Dementors? Would you have expected that he would have a > similar reaction to that of the earlier Hufflepuff match? No, when I first read the book I knew that he would take them out. The only surprise was learning who it really was, lol. > 6. How do you read Hermione's behaviour at the post-Ravenclaw > match party? She is hurt because she believes that Crookshanks did not eat Scabbers and both Ron and Harry have been at her telling her that he did. She wants them to believe the truth and they are ganging up on her. > 7. Do you think Percy was too hasty in refusing to listen to Ron > after the attack? Was this just a typical reaction from him? Yes, Percy was too hasty and yes it is a typical reaction for him. He was hard on Ron for a good part of that book and to be perfectly honest he is one of the characters I like the least because he is a jerk. > 8. What was your reaction on first reading about Neville's > blunder? I felt so bad for poor Neville. The poor guy has such a hard time remembering any thing and then when I found out that he had not lost the passwords and instead the cat had stolen them, I felt even worse for him. June From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Fri Jan 14 21:50:34 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 21:50:34 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <591762.24161.qm@web113909.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing wrote: > > > 1. Do you think that Hermione was right in accusing Ron of > > being prejudiced against Crookshanks? > > June: > Ron was prejudiced against Crookshanks, you see it all through the > book. Ron did not like Crookshanks because Crookshanks had nearly > scalped him when he jumped over him at their first meeting and his > reaction when he realized that Hermione bought Crookshanks instead > of an owl was "You actually bought that thing?" Geoff: Prejudice is defined in my dictionary as "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or experience". I think that, since Crookshanks had landed on Ron's head because he was trying to catch Scabbers, he has every reason to dislike the animal and to be suspicious of its intentions. Hermione is obviously too wrapped up in Crookshanks to see ant faults or accept any suggestion of them. > > 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is > > he right in thinking that the creature exists or were the > > various apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his > > over-excited imagination? June: > The Grim turned out to be Sirius Black. Geoff: I would beg to disagree on that point. We need to remember that we are considering how we viewed events as we read the book for the first time and not allowing what we read in later books to colour our hindsight. Let us look at some of the evidence. Harry has just walked out of Privet Drive leaving with his baggage. He is a thirteen year old who has just confronted an abusive uncle and set out without knowing precisely where he is going and when he stops to collect his thoughts, he sees "the hulking outline of something very big, with wide, gleaming eyes." (POA "The Knight Bus" p.30 UK edition) He then falls over as the Knight Bus appears and narrowly misses him. He continues looking, arousing Stan Shunpike's curiosity. "Choo lookin' at?" said Stan. "There was a big black thing," said Harry, pointing uncertainly into the gap. "Like a dog... but massive..." (ibid. p.31) So, Harry has seen something and not positively identified it. Then, Harry is in Flourish and Blotts when he sees book called 'Death Omens'. "Harry continued to stare at the front cover of the book; it showed a black dog as large as a bear, with gleaming eyes. It looked oddly familiar..." (POA "The Leaky Cauldron p,45 UK edition) To add to Harry's uncertainty, there is the incident in the first Divination lesson when Professor Trelawney looks at Harry's tea leaves. "My dear," Professor Trelawney's huge eyes opened dramatically, "you have the Grim." "The what?" said Harry... "The Grim, my dear, the Grim!" cried Professor Trelawney who looked shocked that Harry hadn't understood. "The giant, spectral dog that haunts churchyards! My dear boy, it is an omen - the worst omen - of death!" (POA "Talons and Tea Leaves" pp.82/83 UK edition} Harry's thoughts are not improved when Ron reveals that he is frightened by the Grim after Harry reveals that he thinks he has seen one. And just before he falls from his broom during the Hufflepuff match, "Harry saw something that distracted him completely: the silhouette of an enormous shaggy dog, clearly imprinted against the sky, motionless in the topmost, empty row of seats" (POA "Grim Defeat" p.133 UK edition) So it is not surprising that Harry, at this point, is quite rattled, and the appearance of the Dementors completes the events to cause his fall and increases his fears of what the sighting of the Grim might portend. However, on the night before the Quidditch final, Harry has one further incident to compound his worries: "...something caught his eye. An animal of some kind was prowling across the silvery lawn. Harry dashed to his bedside table, snatched up his glasses and put them on, then hurried back to the window It couldn't be the Grim - not now - not right before the match -. He peered out at the grounds again and, after a minute's frantic searching, spotted it. It was skirting the edge of the edge of the Forest now... it wasn't the Grim at all... it was a cat... Harry clutched the window-ledge in reliefas he recognised the bottle- brush tail. It was only Crookshanks... Or was it only Crookshanks? Harry squinted, pressing his nose flat against the glass. Crookshanks appeared to have come to a halt. Harry was sure he could see something else moving on the shadow of the trees, too. And next moment, it had emerged: A gigantic, shaggy black dog, moving stealthily across the lawn, Crookshanks trotting at its side. Harry stared. What did this mean? If Crookshanks could see the dog as well, how could it be an omen of Harry's death? (POA "The Quidditch Final" pp.223/24 UK edition) This latter event is a continuation of a masterly piece of misdirection by JKR. We are gradually persuaded from the beginning that Harry is being tracked by this harbinger of death and Harry is obviously being seriously unsettled. And then we have this situation and JKR poses a different scenario. If Crookshanks can see the dog, how can it be spectral? So we have the question 'Who or what is this being?' As I said previously, we only get the answer - in hindsight -later when the dog drags Ron away and is revealed as Sirius in his Animagus form - and we realise that most of Harry's sightings had been Sirius watching him. So Harry's worries had been fuelled by seeing Sirius and by being bombarded with information about the Grim - but Sirius was NOT the Grim. > > 5. Were you surprised at the speed of Harry's reaction on seeing > > the Dementors? Would you have expected that he would have a > > similar reaction to that of the earlier Hufflepuff match? June: > No, when I first read the book I knew that he would take them out. > The only surprise was learning who it really was, lol. Geoff: Yes. After his previous encounters with (real) Dementors, I expected Harry to waver; the speed of the action at this point masks the fact that he had not felt anything of their presence and seemed almost to get out his wand and use it casually. Realising he had taken them out didn't occur until I turned the page from p.193 to p.194. :-) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 00:22:56 2011 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 00:22:56 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189961 Geoff wrote: > 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is he right in thinking that the creature exists or were the various apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his over-excited imagination? > > June responded: > > The Grim turned out to be Sirius Black. > > Geoff again: > I would beg to disagree on that point. We need to remember that we are considering how we viewed events as we read the book for the first time and not allowing what we read in later books to colour our hindsight. Carol responds to both: I can understand June's response to this question, which asks in the present tense "Is he right in thinking that the creature exists?" I think you meant "Did you think Harry was right that the creature exists?" I was also unsure how to respond (in my head--I'm not planning to respond on list for lack of time) because I know that you know that we now know that the "Grim" was Sirius Black's Animagus form. Several other questions are also posed in the present tense. By way of consolation, Geoff, I agree with your remarks on prejudice. Ron had good reason for his dislike of the half-Kneazle cat, Crookshanks though I think he overreacted in blaming Hermione for her cat's natural instincts. (If he had been an ordinary cat, he certainly *would* have eaten Scabbers--to the great detriment of the storyline. Carol, who is rather pressed for time and just dropping in From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 15 06:45:26 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 22:45:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <866306.48632.qm@web113906.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189962 Geoff wrote: > 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is he right in thinking that the creature exists or were the various apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his over- excited imagination? > > June responded: > > The Grim turned out to be Sirius Black. > > Geoff again: > I would beg to disagree on that point. We need to remember that we are considering how we viewed events as we read the book for the first time and not allowing what we read in later books to colour our hindsight. Carol responds to both: > I can understand June's response to this question, which asks in the present tense "Is he right in thinking that the creature exists?" I think you meant "Did you think Harry was right that the creature exists?" I was also unsure how to respond (in my head-- I'm not planning to respond on list for lack of time) because I know that you know that we now know that the "Grim" was Sirius Black's Animagus form. Several other questions are also posed in > the present tense. June: The question that was asked was Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is he right in thinking that the creature exists or were the various apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his over-excited imagination? It said nothing about before we find out the truth. Therefore my answer is correct there was (and in my opinion there is no such thing as) a Grim. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Sat Jan 15 08:12:33 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 08:12:33 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <866306.48632.qm@web113906.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing wrote: > > Geoff wrote: > > 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is > he right in thinking that the creature exists or were the various > apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his over- > excited imagination? > > > > June responded: > > > The Grim turned out to be Sirius Black. > > > > Geoff again: > > I would beg to disagree on that point. We need to remember that > we are considering how we viewed events as we read the book for > the first time and not allowing what we read in later books to > colour our hindsight. > > Carol responds to both: > > I can understand June's response to this question, which asks > in the present tense "Is he right in thinking that the creature > exists?" I think you meant "Did you think Harry was right that the > creature exists?" I was also unsure how to respond (in my head-- > I'm not planning to respond on list for lack of time) because I > know that you know that we now know that the "Grim" was Sirius > Black's Animagus form. Several other questions are also posed in > > the present tense. > > > June: > The question that was asked was Harry is still letting thoughts > of the Grim bother him. Is he right in thinking that the creature > exists or were the various apparent sightings just coincidences or > products of his over-excited imagination? It said nothing about > before we find out the truth. Therefore my answer is correct there > was (and in my opinion there is no such thing as) a Grim. Geoff: I think that both questions and tenses are admissible. My question, in the present tense is looking at Harry's POV in the situation involved whereas we, as external observers, are permitted to pose the question in a more general context. June, your last sentence appears to be contradictory at first reading. You appear to be saying on the one hand: Therefore my answer is correct there was a Grim. and on the other: In my opinion there is no such thing as a Grim. Can you expand on that please? From beccy.talmy at googlemail.com Sat Jan 15 07:51:18 2011 From: beccy.talmy at googlemail.com (Beccy Talmy) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:51:18 +0200 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <866306.48632.qm@web113906.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <866306.48632.qm@web113906.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189964 > June: > The question that was asked was Harry is still letting thoughts > of the Grim bother him. Is he right in thinking that the creature > exists or were the various apparent sightings just coincidences or > products of his over-excited imagination? It said nothing about > before we find out the truth. Therefore my answer is correct there > was (and in my opinion there is no such thing as) a Grim. Beccy: I think what was meant to be implied was 'as you were reading, did you think that Harry was right to still be thinking about the Grim?' - maybe not initially obvious, but a reasonable and interesting line of inquiry. Trying to think back to when I first read it is difficult, but I don't think I at any point feared that Harry's death was imminent in POA, so I must have taken the Grim sightings with a pinch of a salt. I suppose from Harry's point of view, he is 'the boy who narrowly escapes death repeatedly', so it's understandable that seeing the Grim and repeatedly being told about it would freak him out. Literarily, maybe it also feeds into what we learn about the circumstances of his parents' death - that they knew it was coming and their efforts to evade it didn't work. Sirius being unknowingly introduced to us as a false symbol of death fits in well with his having an image as a murderer that we later realise was false. -- 'It is the choices society makes that causes someone to be disabled. Organise things differently, and they are suddenly enabled.' From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 15 17:54:08 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:54:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <344709.42619.qm@web113908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189965 > June: > The question that was asked was Harry is still letting thoughts > of the Grim bother him. Is he right in thinking that the creature > exists or were the various apparent sightings just coincidences or > products of his over-excited imagination? It said nothing about > before we find out the truth. Therefore my answer is correct there > was (and in my opinion there is no such thing as) a Grim. > Geoff: I think that both questions and tenses are admissible. My question, in the present tense is looking at Harry's POV in the situation involved whereas we, as external observers, are permitted to pose the question in a more general context. June, your last sentence appears to be contradictory at first reading. You appear to be saying on the one hand: Therefore my answer is correct there was a Grim. and on the other: In my opinion there is no such thing as a Grim. > Can you expand on that please? June: There is nothing contradictory about it. How many people in rl have told you they saw a Grim? If you believe in them that is ok you may but I do not believe them to exist and that is my opinion and I am entitled to it. And as for Harry there never was a Grim as I have stated above and if you want to go back to the point of the book where we did not know the truth about it either, I thought there had to be another answer to it (although I was going on the thought that in my head he would survive and kill Voldemort because he had to kill Voldemort) so never in the book did I think there was a grim and in rl I do not believe in grims. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 15 18:58:50 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 15 Jan 2011 18:58:50 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/16/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1295117930.509.45904.m14@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189966 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 16, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 20:06:17 2011 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 20:06:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189967 Thanks, Geoff, for the questions. > 1. Do you think that Hermione was right in accusing Ron of > being prejudiced against Crookshanks? > Annemehr: Of course not. Crookshanks had been known to go after Scabbers any chance he got. What Ron didn't know was that Crookshanks was part-Kneazle and Scabbers was an imposter, but at the time his conclusions were based on observation, not prejudice. What I wonder about is Hermione's seeming complete indifference to Ron's feelings about his pet. Maybe she has an irrational fear of rats, but she could have had some empathy as well. > 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is he > right in thinking that the creature exists or were the various > apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his over- > excited imagination? > Annemehr: At this point in the story, sure, he might well believe it could be true. He's been in this whole magical world for less than three years, and all sorts of things like magic wands and flying brooms turned out to be true. Why not the Grim? There are two questions here, I think. One, is there such a thing as the Grim? And two, if there is, is that what Harry was seeing? At this point, he didn't really know, but he was worried that both answers might be yes. Seems to me, it was quite possible from his point of view. (I as a reader of course knew that it wasn't, because there were more books to come.) > 4. Do you think that Cho is just using her flying ability to distract > Harry or do you think she might be using her womanly wiles to > affect him in other ways? > Annemehr: She was using manly wiles; i.e. sports strategy. :P > 5. Were you surprised at the speed of Harry's reaction on seeing > the Dementors? Would you have expected that he would have a > similar reaction to that of the earlier Hufflepuff match? Annemehr: Yeah, I was surprised he didn't feel cold or anything at all. If there had been three actual dementors, I would have expected him to feel well enough to send off a patronus, but still to feel something. There weren't nearly as many (supposed) dementors as showed up at the Hufflepuff match, so I don't think he would have fallen. Annemehr From puduhepa98 at aol.com Sun Jan 16 04:11:07 2011 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 04:11:07 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189968 - > 1. Do you think that Hermione was right in accusing Ron of > being prejudiced against Crookshanks? Nikkalmati Ron did have a negative opinion of Crookshanks, but it is clear the Knesel has a strong interest in Scabbers. Would he have killed him if possible? Maybe Crookshanks would have forced Scabbers to revert to Peter? I am not sure what Hermione could have done to keep Crookshanks away. She can't lock him up all the time, but she does seem unsympathetic to Ron's concerns. Nikkalmati > > 2. Was it wise for Harry to intervene in the argument, even if > he thought Ron was right? Nikkalmati It was reasonable to offer his opinion. I don't think he was taking sides, but Hermione felt threatened and took his comment that way. Nikkalmati > > 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is he > right in thinking that the creature exists or were the various > apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his over- > excited imagination? > Nikkalmati Both Ron and Trelawny attest that the Grim exists. I have no doubt that such a thing exists in the WW. What Harry was seeing was not the Grim, but he was reasonable to think it was. He obviously does not want to believe in it or to let his fear affect him. Nikkalmati > 4. Do you think that Cho is just using her flying ability to distract > Harry or do you think she might be using her womanly wiles to > affect him in other ways? Nikkalmat Why do guys always think that? Just because Harry feels something when he meets her doesn't mean she even knows about it. The only thing she did intentionally here was to try to knock him off his broom. Nikkalmati > > 5. Were you surprised at the speed of Harry's reaction on seeing > the Dementors? Would you have expected that he would have a > similar reaction to that of the earlier Hufflepuff match? > Nikkalmati Yes, it was surprising, but it was soon revealed that they were not Dementors. Nikkalmati > 6. How do you read Hermione's behaviour at the post-Ravenclaw > match party? Nikkalmati She was very ill at ease and did not know how to get back together with her friends. She was hiding her uneasiness behind her studies as she often does and pretending she did not care. Harry knows better. Nikkalmati > > 7. Do you think Percy was too hasty in refusing to listen to Ron > after the attack? Was this just a typical reaction from him? Nikkalmati Percy was not inclined to listen to his little brother because he probably never listens to Ron at home. Besides the claim is incredible and he doesn't want to believe they were all in so much danger under his watch. Nikkalmati > > 8. What was your reaction on first reading about Neville's blunder? > Nikkalmati I was pretty disgusted with Neville. Nikkalmati Thank you Geoff for the questions. > 9. Please add any questions which you might think are germane > to the discussion.> > Nikkalmati I wonder why none of the teachers noted and commented on the Patronus attempt by Harry except Lupin? Nikkalmati> > From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 16 14:58:04 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 14:58:04 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: > > 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is he > > right in thinking that the creature exists or were the various > > apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his over- > > excited imagination? > Nikkalmati: > Both Ron and Trelawny attest that the Grim exists. > I have no doubt that such a thing exists in the WW. What Harry was seeing was not the Grim, but he was reasonable to think it was. He obviously does not want to believe in it or to let his fear affect him. > > 4. Do you think that Cho is just using her flying ability to distract > > Harry or do you think she might be using her womanly wiles to > > affect him in other ways? Nikkalmati: > Why do guys always think that? Just because Harry feels something when he meets her doesn't mean she even knows about it. The only thing she did intentionally here was to try to knock him off his broom. Geoff: I knew *someone* would interpret my question that way! I spent time trying to work out the best way of wording my question. I got the impression that Cho was trying very quietly to catch Harry's eye. She smiles at Harry but then, after the near-collision on the brooms, she appeared to me to be exhibiting a mixture of mischief and coquettishness when she grins at him. I don't agree with you that she was intentionally trying to knock Harry off the broom. After Harry's accident in the previous match that would have been thoughtless and unkind. I think she was trying to unsight him. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 16 15:06:00 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 15:06:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: > > 3. Harry is still letting thoughts of the Grim bother him. Is he > > right in thinking that the creature exists or were the various > > apparent sightings just coincidences or products of his over- > > excited imagination? Nikkalmati: > Both Ron and Trelawny attest that the Grim exists. > I have no doubt that such a thing exists in the WW. What Harry was seeing was not the Grim, but he was reasonable to think it was. He obviously does not want to believe in it or to let his fear affect him. Geoff: Sorry. I meant to comment on this is my last post and forgot which is why Nikkalmati's reply is still there but with nothing added. I think that Ron might have been influenced in childhood, possibly by some adult making a careless remark about Uncle Bilius. The reaction of the Divination class to Trelawney's description makes me think of childhood reactions to bogeymen. Hermione, for once, might have added a sensible dash of common sense to counterbalance Ron's ideas. As for Trelawney... well, Trelawney is Trelawney. :-) From k12listmomma at comcast.net Sun Jan 16 17:51:17 2011 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 10:51:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D333015.9070400@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 189971 > Nikkalmati > > Ron did have a negative opinion of Crookshanks, but it is clear the Knesel has a strong interest in Scabbers. Would he have killed him if possible? Maybe Crookshanks would have forced Scabbers to revert to Peter? I am not sure what Hermione could have done to keep Crookshanks away. She can't lock him up all the time, but she does seem unsympathetic to Ron's concerns. > This is an interesting question- whether the Kneazle could have forced Peter out of his animageous form. I think if he killed Scabbers that Peter wouldn't have appeared as a dead rat, but rather as the dead person who he really was. If that was the case, the kids would have been 100% safe, and the truth revealed. If Crookshanks had merely wounded Scabbers, then he (Peter) still posed danger to Hogwarts and all of the children there. So I agree the intention had been for the Cat to kill the Rat. But, for the sake of the story, that can't happen too soon or the plot is ruined. We aren't meant to know that Scabbers is really Peter, and so for the sake of the plot Crookshanks merely scares Scabbers into hiding. Was Ron right, or Hermione right? They both missed the truth of the situation, as they were intended to do. It's a plot element to have the characters miss the obvious so that we as readers could have a mystery to solve. It's up to us as readers to catch the element that Crookshanks isn't just a cat, and Scabbers isn't just a rat, and the situation isn't a normal cat and mouse chase. Crookshanks intends to kill Scabbers, but the kids aren't smart enough, or have enough experience, to ask WHY. I think Ron's experience was based in his poverty- he didn't have much, but he valued what he had. To him, Scabbers was the only pet he owned, and it's totally natural of him to be defensive of anything that would threaten that. Crookshanks had to go after Scabbers only once for Ron to start being deliberately protective of Scabbers, and that is the reason that Peter chose the Weasley family to hide with. He knew the attitude wouldn't be "oh well, we can always get another one". He wasn't just a rat, he was a treasured member of the family. Hermione's attitude does seem unsympathetic, but she chose her cat for his intelligence. I think they bonded for that reason, and the Cat's attitude toward people was purposely cold in the shop so that he wouldn't get bought by a wizard or witch who wasn't good or noble. I think Hermione trusted this animal but failed to realize what this cat was telling her, but that wasn't helped by Ron's (inderstandable) hostile attitude of protectiveness. She was caught in between a rock and a hard place, between keeping her friends or being wrong for having bought an intelligent cat. (In reality, the Crookshanks chose her.) There was no way for her to win. No one thinks of how she feels, of being accused of letting the cat kill the rat even though there was no evidence that ever happened. Ron thought she was wrong for even buying the cat, but again, he doesn't know the whole situation. I also think Rowlings intended for us to focus on the kids fighting, at the normal scraps that even best friends have from time to time. This provides some realism to the story, and makes us sympathize and come to love these characters. We, by nature as readers, tend to pick sides of who we think is right or wrong in this fight, and who I sympathized with most is Harry, who is innocent in all regards but also caught in between a rock and a hard place. He just wants to be friends with both Ron and Hermione, and it isn't fair of either of them to ask him to take sides. Shelley From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 16 17:55:51 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 16 Jan 2011 17:55:51 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/16/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1295200551.615.79484.m13@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189972 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 16, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From puduhepa98 at aol.com Wed Jan 19 05:03:31 2011 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 05:03:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189973 > > > > > 4. Do you think that Cho is just using her flying ability to distract > > > Harry or do you think she might be using her womanly wiles to > > > affect him in other ways? > > Nikkalmati: > > Why do guys always think that? Just because Harry feels something when he meets her doesn't mean she even knows about it. The only thing she did intentionally here was to try to knock him off his broom. > > Geoff: > I knew *someone* would interpret my question that way! I spent time > trying to work out the best way of wording my question. > > I got the impression that Cho was trying very quietly to catch Harry's eye. > She smiles at Harry but then, after the near-collision on the brooms, she > appeared to me to be exhibiting a mixture of mischief and coquettishness > when she grins at him. > > I don't agree with you that she was intentionally trying to knock Harry off > the broom. After Harry's accident in the previous match that would have > been thoughtless and unkind. I think she was trying to unsight him. > Nikkalmati "womanly wiles" strikes me as a loaded term. Cho is apparently a very pretty girl. She is also in another House and a year older. It's hard if you can't even smile pleasantly upon meeting someone new without being accused of manipulation. The proper form of the question would be to ask why Harry doesn't want to confront her - so much that the twins have to urge him on. He may just be chivalrous, but because he is attracted to her he doesn't want to treat her like he would any other Seeker. As for knocking him off his broom, Quiddach is a very rough sport and that would be standard behavior in a match. Do you think she was deliberatly holding back? Actually, she has such a slow broom compared to his Firebolt, she has no realistic chance in a head to head contest. She has to hope she sees the Snitch and he doesn't. Nikkalmati From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed Jan 19 08:28:51 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:28:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189974 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: > > > > 4. Do you think that Cho is just using her flying ability to distract > > > > Harry or do you think she might be using her womanly wiles to > > > > affect him in other ways? Nikkalmati: > > > Why do guys always think that? Just because Harry feels something when he meets her doesn't mean she even knows about it. The only thing she did intentionally here was to try to knock him off his broom. Geoff: > > I knew *someone* would interpret my question that way! I spent time > > trying to work out the best way of wording my question. > > I got the impression that Cho was trying very quietly to catch Harry's eye. > > She smiles at Harry but then, after the near-collision on the brooms, she > > appeared to me to be exhibiting a mixture of mischief and coquettishness > > when she grins at him. > > I don't agree with you that she was intentionally trying to knock Harry off > > the broom. After Harry's accident in the previous match that would have > > been thoughtless and unkind. I think she was trying to unsight him. Nikkalmati > "womanly wiles" strikes me as a loaded term. Cho is apparently a very pretty girl. She is also in another House and a year older. It's hard if you can't even smile pleasantly upon meeting someone new without being accused of manipulation. Geoff: I tried to think of a different term but I think that she was interested in meeting Harry because of his fame and I did suspect a possible bit of flirting. Nikkalmati: > The proper form of the question would be to ask why Harry doesn't want to confront her - so much that the twins have to urge him on. He may just be chivalrous, but because he is attracted to her he doesn't want to treat her like he would any other Seeker. Geoff: He may have been attracted to her but I can identify myself with him in that I found dealing with girls at that age was not easy; in my case, going to a single-sex school didn't help. In hindsight, we saw in GOF that Harry was not comfortable or skilled in getting a relationship off the ground. Nikkalmati: > As for knocking him off his broom, Quiddach is a very rough sport and that would be standard behavior in a match. Do you think she was deliberatly holding back? Actually, she has such a slow broom compared to his Firebolt, she has no realistic chance in a head to head contest. She has to hope she sees the Snitch and he doesn't. Geoff: Quidditch may be a rough sport but knocking off brooms would make it downright lethal. Harry only avoided serious injury in the Hufflepuff match because Dumbledore intervened to bring him down gently - even some of the spectators had feared that he might have been killed. From sandy at shesconnected.com Wed Jan 19 19:03:54 2011 From: sandy at shesconnected.com (SandysConnected) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:03:54 -0000 Subject: The Ultimate Harry Potter And Philosophy: Hogwarts For Muggles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189975 Re chapter discussion: Excellent discussion and input, I enjoyed reading all of your opinions. Has anyone read this book? The Ultimate Harry Potter And Philosophy: Hogwarts For Muggles It got good reviews where I get my books for my Kobo eReader, but I thought a few people from this group might have opinions I trust. Let me know. Here is a link if you want to see the book I'm talking about: http://bit.ly/dOk7qN ~Sandy, ShesConnected.com Community Manager From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 22 18:58:04 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 22 Jan 2011 18:58:04 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/23/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1295722684.27.72283.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189977 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 23, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 2 minutes.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From puduhepa98 at aol.com Sun Jan 23 05:01:30 2011 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 05:01:30 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: > > > > > > 4. Do you think that Cho is just using her flying ability to distract > > > > > Harry or do you think she might be using her womanly wiles to > > > > > affect him in other ways? > > Nikkalmati: > > > > Why do guys always think that? Just because Harry feels something when he meets her doesn't mean she even knows about it. The only thing she did intentionally here was to try to knock him off his broom. > > Geoff: > > > I knew *someone* would interpret my question that way! I spent time > > > trying to work out the best way of wording my question. > > > > I got the impression that Cho was trying very quietly to catch Harry's eye. > > > She smiles at Harry but then, after the near-collision on the brooms, she > > > appeared to me to be exhibiting a mixture of mischief and coquettishness > > > when she grins at him. > > > > I don't agree with you that she was intentionally trying to knock Harry off > > > the broom. After Harry's accident in the previous match that would have > > > been thoughtless and unkind. I think she was trying to unsight him. > > Nikkalmati > > "womanly wiles" strikes me as a loaded term. Cho is apparently a very pretty girl. She is also in another House and a year older. It's hard if you can't even smile pleasantly upon meeting someone new without being accused of manipulation. > > Geoff: > I tried to think of a different term but I think that she was interested in > meeting Harry because of his fame and I did suspect a possible bit of > flirting. > Nikkalmati Well, just say she was flirting. Womanly wiles implies somethin underhanded and insincere. Nikkalmati snip> > Nikkalmati: > > As for knocking him off his broom, Quiddach is a very rough sport and that would be standard behavior in a match. , > Geoff: > Quidditch may be a rough sport but knocking off brooms would make it > downright lethal. Harry only avoided serious injury in the Hufflepuff match > because Dumbledore intervened to bring him down gently - even some of > the spectators had feared that he might have been killed. > Nikkalmati Harry was nearly killed because he was unconscious from the effect of the Dementors. Most times a wizard would be able to seve himself from a fall. Nikkalmati From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 23 17:55:16 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 Jan 2011 17:55:16 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/23/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1295805316.602.29694.m11@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189979 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 23, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sun Jan 23 18:47:07 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 10:47:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <729789.47371.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189980 June: The one thing in this book that I have always thought about was when Lavender is crying because she got news that her pet rabbit had been killed. I love Hermione to pieces but I did think that she was a little insensitive to Lavender's situation which could also be why the two best friends and Hermione never really became friends. Personally I think that Hermione should have kept her feelings about divination and her logic out of it in this case to confort a dorm sister who really needed it. What does everyone else think about this? From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 23 23:25:41 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:25:41 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: Geoff: > > Quidditch may be a rough sport but knocking off brooms would make it > > downright lethal. Harry only avoided serious injury in the Hufflepuff match > > because Dumbledore intervened to bring him down gently - even some of > > the spectators had feared that he might have been killed. Nikkalmati > Harry was nearly killed because he was unconscious from the effect of the Dementors. Most times a wizard would be able to seve himself from a fall. Geoff: I'm inclined to disagree with you. Can you advance any canon evidence for your suggestion? From puduhepa98 at aol.com Mon Jan 24 01:32:16 2011 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:32:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <729789.47371.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189982 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing wrote: > > June: > The one thing in this book that I have always thought about was > when Lavender is crying because she got news that her pet rabbit > had been killed. I love Hermione to pieces but I did think that > she was a little insensitive to Lavender's situation which could > also be why the two best friends and Hermione never really became > friends. Personally I think that Hermione should have kept her > feelings about divination and her logic out of it in this case to > confort a dorm sister who really needed it. What does everyone > else think about this? > Nikkalmati Hermione lacks certain social skills. She has been critisized before for her lack of empathy. She also did not show concern for Scabbers when Ron was so worried about him. I think here she was more upset that someone would support Trelawnie"s prediction when Hermione does not beleive in divination than that Lavander was sad about her rabbit. Nikkalmati From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 11:19:22 2011 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:19:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <729789.47371.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189983 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing wrote: > > June: > The one thing in this book that I have always thought about was > when Lavender is crying because she got news that her pet rabbit > had been killed. I love Hermione to pieces but I did think that > she was a little insensitive to Lavender's situation which could > also be why the two best friends and Hermione never really became > friends. Personally I think that Hermione should have kept her > feelings about divination and her logic out of it in this case to > confort a dorm sister who really needed it. What does everyone > else think about this? > Good question. It might just be the way Hermione herself processes grief -- by looking at things logically. She seemed to be the same way toward her own grief at the beginning of DH when talking about how she modified her parents' memories and sent them away. In which case, she may have just been doing unto Lavender as she would have had others do unto herself. That backfires sometimes. Although it makes it a bit ironic that she once accused Ron of having the emotional range of a teaspoon, doesn't it? Annemehr From puduhepa98 at aol.com Tue Jan 25 04:04:33 2011 From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 04:04:33 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: > > Geoff: > > > Quidditch may be a rough sport but knocking off brooms would make it > > > downright lethal. Harry only avoided serious injury in the Hufflepuff match > > > because Dumbledore intervened to bring him down gently - even some of > > > the spectators had feared that he might have been killed. > > Nikkalmati > > > Harry was nearly killed because he was unconscious from the effect of the Dementors. Most times a wizard would be able to seve himself from a fall. > > Geoff: > I'm inclined to disagree with you. Can you advance any canon > evidence for your suggestion? > Nikkalmati What is it you disagree with? My POA US paperback covers the events pp 179-81. We see that Harry was hearing his mother's voice and "white mist was filing Harry's brain. . .. What was he doing?" Then he was falling but he "knew no more." He was in the hospital when he woke up and he did not remember hitting the ground. The teammates and Hermione told him DD came out on the field and slowed him down before he hit the ground. They had all thought he was dead. He had to be carried to the castle. Clearly, he passed out. If you disagree about a normal wizard saving himself, think about how Uncle Algee tested Neville when he was a boy. He dropped him out of the window knowing he would not be hurt, if he had magic. Didn't Neville bounce all the way down the road or some such? Nikkalmati (who apologizes for her terrible spelling) From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 25 07:26:30 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 07:26:30 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: Nikkalmati: >Harry was nearly killed because he was unconscious from the effect of the Dementors. Most times a wizard would be able to seve himself from a fall. Geoff: > > I'm inclined to disagree with you. Can you advance any canon > > evidence for your suggestion? > Nikkalmati > What is it you disagree with? My POA US paperback covers the events pp 179-81. We see that Harry was hearing his mother's voice and "white mist was filing Harry's brain. . .. What was he doing?" Then he was falling but he "knew no more." He was in the hospital when he woke up and he did not remember hitting the ground. The teammates and Hermione told him DD came out on the field and slowed him down before he hit the ground. They had all thought he was dead. He had to be carried to the castle. Clearly, he passed out. > > If you disagree about a normal wizard saving himself, think about how Uncle Algee tested Neville when he was a boy. He dropped him out of the window knowing he would not be hurt, if he had magic. Didn't Neville bounce all the way down the road or some such? Geoff: Quite correctly, you cite one instance of a wizard saving themselves although this could be an instance of accidental magic such as Harry finishing up on the roof of the school or the incident with Aunt Marge. Counter to that, you have the case of Neville falling off his broom (PS "The Midnight Duel" pp. 109/10 UK edition). If he had been higher, this cold have resulted in death or serious injury. Where I disagree is in extrapolating one incident which you quote to "most times". From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jan 25 15:05:33 2011 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:05:33 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189986 > > Geoff: > Quite correctly, you cite one instance of a wizard saving themselves although > this could be an instance of accidental magic such as Harry finishing up on > the roof of the school or the incident with Aunt Marge. > > Counter to that, you have the case of Neville falling off his broom (PS "The > Midnight Duel" pp. 109/10 UK edition). If he had been higher, this cold have > resulted in death or serious injury. > > Where I disagree is in extrapolating one incident which you quote to "most times". > Pippin: No one in canon doubts that Harry was in mortal peril when Quirrell was trying to knock him off his broom in PS/SS. But I think more experienced wizards with their wands and their wits about them could probably save themselves from a fall. "Accio broom!" for example, or they could transfigure their landing spot into something soft, or they could use a levitation spell once they got close enough to the ground for it to work. But I think Wood was indulging in a bit of hyperbole, and didn't really expect Harry to knock Cho off her broom. I doubt that without hexing the broom or Cho herself it would be possible. Quidditch players routinely accelerate and decelerate rapidly without safety belts and don't go flying off. In fact Ginny drives her broom right through the speaker's podium in HBP and doesn't get knocked off in the collision. Harry doesn't even seem to have fallen off when a bludger knocked him unconscious in the same book. I don't think under normal circumstances a broom will let its rider fall off unless he deliberately lets go of it. Pippin From fenneyml at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 13:51:04 2011 From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 08:51:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189987 > Nikkalmati: > >Harry was nearly killed because he was unconscious from the effect of the > Dementors. Most times a wizard would be able to seve himself from a fall. > > Geoff: > > > I'm inclined to disagree with you. Can you advance any canon > > > evidence for your suggestion? > > > Nikkalmati > > What is it you disagree with? My POA US paperback covers the events pp > 179-81. We see that Harry was hearing his mother's voice and "white mist was > filing Harry's brain. . .. What was he doing?" Then he was falling but he > "knew no more." He was in the hospital when he woke up and he did not > remember hitting the ground. The teammates and Hermione told him DD came out > on the field and slowed him down before he hit the ground. They had all > thought he was dead. He had to be carried to the castle. Clearly, he passed > out. > > > > If you disagree about a normal wizard saving himself, think about how > Uncle Algee tested Neville when he was a boy. He dropped him out of the > window knowing he would not be hurt, if he had magic. Didn't Neville bounce > all the way down the road or some such? > > >Geoff: > >Quite correctly, you cite one instance of a wizard saving themselves > although this could be an instance of accidental magic such as Harry > finishing up on the roof of the school or the incident with Aunt >Marge. > > > >Counter to that, you have the case of Neville falling off his broom (PS > "The Midnight Duel" pp. 109/10 UK edition). If he had been higher, this cold > have resulted in death or serious injury. > > > >Where I disagree is in extrapolating one incident which you quote to "most > times". bookcrazzzy: I have to agree that a normal wizard functioning normally would be able to save himself from a fall "most times". I don't think it is a matter of citing instances of wizards falling off their brooms but rather a matter of accumulated general knowledge of wizards and magic. We know that there a great many ways that a wizard can respond to a given situation, depending on their knowledge, skills, individual strengths, etc., the most obvious example of this being the Tri-Wizard Tournament. With respect to falling off a broom, we know that Neville's bouncing is one way and DD's slowing Harry down is another way. We can easily think of other possibilities such as summoning another broom, transforming a rock on the ground into a mattress, transforming something on the wizard into a balloon, etc. As long as the wizard is not under some impediment that prevents such a response, I think it is reasonable to believe it would be normal for him to save himself from a fall. From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 25 19:25:13 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:25:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hermione's Sensitivity (Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <109961.51217.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189988 > June: > The one thing in this book that I have always thought about was > when Lavender is crying because she got news that her pet rabbit > had been killed. I love Hermione to pieces but I did think that > she was a little insensitive to Lavender's situation which could > also be why the two best friends and Hermione never really became > friends. Personally I think that Hermione should have kept her > feelings about divination and her logic out of it in this case to > comfort a dorm sister who really needed it. What does everyone > else think about this? Nikkalmati: Hermione lacks certain social skills. She has been criticized before for her lack of empathy. She also did not show concern for Scabbers when Ron was so worried about him. I think here she was more upset that someone would support Trelawney's prediction when Hermione does not believe in divination than that Lavender was sad about her rabbit. June: You are absolutely right about that. That is a flaw she would have to work on. She too wasn't concerned (or didn't seem concerned) about the disappearance of Scabbers. If she did not believe Crookshanks had eaten him then she should have been helping Ron look for him. Ron too has his flaws. He can be a spiteful jerk sometimes. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue Jan 25 21:22:35 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:22:35 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189989 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Fenney wrote: Nikkalmati: > > > If you disagree about a normal wizard saving himself, think about how > > Uncle Algee tested Neville when he was a boy. He dropped him out of the > > window knowing he would not be hurt, if he had magic. Didn't Neville bounce > > all the way down the road or some such? Geoff: > > >Quite correctly, you cite one instance of a wizard saving themselves > > although this could be an instance of accidental magic such as Harry > > finishing up on the roof of the school or the incident with Aunt Marge. > > >Counter to that, you have the case of Neville falling off his broom (PS > > "The Midnight Duel" pp. 109/10 UK edition). If he had been higher, this cold > > have resulted in death or serious injury. > > >Where I disagree is in extrapolating one incident which you quote to "most > > times". bookcrazzzy: > I have to agree that a normal wizard functioning normally would be able to > save himself from a fall "most times". I don't think it is a matter of > citing instances of wizards falling off their brooms but rather a matter of > accumulated general knowledge of wizards and magic. We know that there a > great many ways that a wizard can respond to a given situation, depending on > their knowledge, skills, individual strengths, etc., the most obvious > example of this being the Tri-Wizard Tournament. With respect to falling > off a broom, we know that Neville's bouncing is one way and DD's slowing > Harry down is another way. We can easily think of other possibilities such > as summoning another broom, transforming a rock on the ground into a > mattress, transforming something on the wizard into a balloon, etc. As long > as the wizard is not under some impediment that prevents such a response, I > think it is reasonable to believe it would be normal for him to save himself > from a fall. Geoff: I think that you are visualising a situation which is unlikely to arise in normal circumstances. Let's consider a real life one. you are in a car accident and are injured. You might spend time afterwards thinking: "Why didn't I swerve?"; "Why didn't I jump out?";|"Why didn't I brake hard?". In the cold light of hindsight, this might look feasible. But in the moment before the crash, assuming you had time to see it coming, your logical thinking might well seize up. In your scenario, the wizard would have to (a) think what to do and (b) remember and perform the spell required. assuming he or she had the time to do that since some of your options might take time; I certainly think trying to summon another broom might prove a bad one and also, if you are already off your broom and falling rapidly, getting your wand out from wherever you have stowed it might prove a problem - unless you suddenly develop an ability for wandless magic. :-) We already have the evidence that Neville failed to demonstrate a saving ability on two out of three occasions. If we look at the canon regarding early events, we read: '"Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch," said Neville, "but the family thought I was all Muggle for ages. My great-uncle Algie kept trying to catch me off my guard and force some magic out of me - he pushed me off the end of Blackpool pier once, I nearly drowned - but nothing happened until I was eight. Great-uncle Algie came round for tea and he was hanging me out of an upstairs window by the ankles when my great- auntie Enid offered him a meringue and he accidentally let go. But I bounced - all the way down the garden and into the road."' (PS "The Sorting Hat" p. 93 UK edition) '"Now, when I blow my whistle, you kick off from the ground, hard," said Madam Hooch. "Keep your brooms steady, rise a few feet and then come straight back down by leaning forwards slightly. One my whistle - three - two -" But Neville, nervous and jumpy and frightened of being left on the ground, pushed off hard before the whistle had touched Madam Hooch's lips. "Come back, boy!" she shouted, but Neville was rising straight up like a cork shot out of a bottle = twelve feet - twenty feet. Harry saw his scared white face look down at the ground falling away, saw him gasp, slip sideways off the broom and - WHAM - a thud and a nasty crack and Neville lay, face down, on the grass in a heap.' (PS "The Midnight Duel" pp.109/10 UK edition). OK, I accept that Neville was nervous and a young wizard but his disaster success rate over these events has been a mere 33.3%. I have a suspicion that even experienced wizards might return a similar rate given scenarios such as these where very fast thinking and fractions were needed. Hence my disbelief over "most times". If I may move to a different tack over the incident which, to an extent, triggered this part of the thread - namely Cho's flying. To refer to canon again: 'Harry accelerated, eyes fixed on the speck of gold ahead - but next second, Cho had appeared out of thin air, blocking him - "HARRY, THIS IS NO TIME TO BE A GENTLEMAN!" Wood roared , as Harry swerved to avoid a collision. "KNOCK HER OFF HER BROOM IF YOU HAVE TO!"' (POA "Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw" p.193 UK edition). Nikkalmati: suggested in post 189968 that "The only thing she did intentionally here was to try to knock him off his broom" and in post 189973 "As for knocking him off his broom, Quiddach is a very rough sport and that would be standard behavior in a match." It occurred to me later that, if Cho's manoeuvre had been a deliberate attempt to knock Harry off. then Madam Hooch should have awarded a foul and also cautioned Oliver Wood for encouraging Harry to do the same. Suggestions that deliberately knocking someone off is standard behaviour is wrong. Among the ten most common fouls in modern Quidditch, there is Blagging which can apply to all players and is defined as "Flying with intent to collide." (QTTA "Rules" p.29) From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Tue Jan 25 19:30:04 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:30:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hermione's Sensitivity (Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <762362.17834.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189990 Annemehr: Good question. It might just be the way Hermione herself processes grief -- by looking at things logically. She seemed to be the same way toward her own grief at the beginning of DH when talking about how she modified her parents' memories and sent them away. In which case, she may have just been doing unto Lavender as she would have had others do unto herself. That backfires sometimes. Although it makes it a bit ironic that she once accused Ron of having the emotional range of a teaspoon, doesn't it? June: Absolutely true. I had forgotten that she had said that to Ron. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 15:55:16 2011 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:55:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189991 > Pippin: > No one in canon doubts that Harry was in mortal peril when Quirrell was trying to knock him off his broom in PS/SS. But I think more experienced wizards with their wands and their wits about them could probably save themselves from a fall. "Accio broom!" for example, or they could transfigure their landing spot into something soft, or they could use a levitation spell once they got close enough to the ground for it to work. > > But I think Wood was indulging in a bit of hyperbole, and didn't really expect Harry to knock Cho off her broom. I doubt that without hexing the broom or Cho herself it would be possible. Quidditch players routinely accelerate and decelerate rapidly without safety belts and don't go flying off. In fact Ginny drives her broom right through the speaker's podium in HBP and doesn't get knocked off in the collision. Harry doesn't even seem to have fallen off when a bludger knocked him unconscious in the same book. I don't think under normal circumstances a broom will let its rider fall off unless he deliberately lets go of it. > > Pippin > Carol responds: That may be true for an expensive broom like the two Harry owns, but not necessarily for the old school brooms that the kids use for flying lessons and presumably for Quidditch unless their parents provide a better one. We know of several other students besides Harry who are injured playing Quidditch (doesn't Oliver Wood mention being in the hospital wing on one occasion?), and Madam Hooch has a supply of Skele-gro on hand at all times. As for a wizard saving himself from a fall off a broom, the younger students have a limited knowledge of spells (which may be one reason that they're not usually allowed to play Quidditch until at least second year, and even then they really don't know anything useful). I agree with Geoff that it would take time (and require taking one hand off the broom) to grab their wand and perform a spell, and "Accio broom!" would take so long as to be totally useless. Even experienced players are injured in falls from brooms. Oliver's "Knock her off her broom if you have to" illustrates his fanaticism (and total lack of gentlemanly instincts). Had Harry followed his advice, he would have committed a foul--and Cho, though a fifth year with, I assume, a fair knowledge of protective spells, would probably have been seriously injured. Carol, imagining that half the injuries that Madam Hooch deals with are Quidditch related From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 26 20:27:03 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:27:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <636491.6555.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189992 Carol responds: We know of several other students besides Harry who are injured playing Quidditch (doesn't Oliver Wood mention being in the hospital wing on one occasion?), and Madam Hooch has a supply of Skele-gro on hand at all times. June: I think Madam Hooch bought the skelegrow (and several other medications) when she learned Gilderoy Lockhart was going to be teaching, LOL. From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed Jan 26 21:39:48 2011 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:39:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Pippin: > I don't think under normal circumstances a broom will let its rider fall off unless he deliberately lets go of it. Carol: > That may be true for an expensive broom like the two Harry owns, but not necessarily for the old school brooms that the kids use for flying lessons and presumably for Quidditch unless their parents provide a better one. We know of several other students besides Harry who are injured playing Quidditch (doesn't Oliver Wood mention being in the hospital wing on one occasion?), and Madam Hooch has a supply of Skele-gro on hand at all times. Geoff: I think that seems more likely that it is Madam Pomfrey who has the stock of Skele-Gro rather than Madam Hooch. In the various cases of Quidditch injury - Neville in PS and Harry in POA as examples, Madam Hooch packs them off to the hospital wing for treatment and he goes also there after Lockhart's incompetent attempt to heal his arm in COS. This would seem to be logical since there must be other cases of broken bones away from the Quidditch pitch. From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Wed Jan 26 23:24:35 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:24:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <636491.6555.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <531187.16103.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189994 Carol responds: We know of several other students besides Harry who are injured playing Quidditch (doesn't Oliver Wood mention being in the hospital wing on one occasion?), and Madam Hooch has a supply of Skele-gro on hand at all times. June: I think Madam Hooch bought the skelegrow (and several other medications) when she learned Gilderoy Lockhart was going to be teaching, LOL. June: Correction, I didn't catch the boo boo you made and repeated it, lol. That should be Madam Pomfrey. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 16:08:22 2011 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:08:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189995 > Carol earlier: > > > That may be true for an expensive broom like the two Harry owns, but not necessarily for the old school brooms that the kids use for flying lessons and presumably for Quidditch unless their parents provide a better one. We know of several other students besides Harry who are injured playing Quidditch (doesn't Oliver Wood mention being in the hospital wing on one occasion?), and Madam Hooch has a supply of Skele-gro on hand at all times. > > Geoff: > I think that seems more likely that it is Madam Pomfrey who has the stock of Skele-Gro rather than Madam Hooch. Carol responds: Yes, of course you're right. That's what I get for posting in a hurry without taking a moment to refresh my memory. (What's the little smiley icon for embarrassment?) Geoff: > In the various cases of Quidditch injury - Neville in PS and Harry in POA as examples, Madam Hooch packs them off to the hospital wing for treatment and he goes also there after Lockhart's incompetent attempt to heal his arm in COS. > > This would seem to be logical since there must be other cases of broken bones away from the Quidditch pitch. Carol: Possibly, but the other instances of broken bones are rare (Draco's broken arm when he antagonizes Buckbeak)? Most of the injuries she deals with, if they can be called that, seem to be the result of hexes and spilled potions. As for someone's suggestion that Madam Pomfrey stocked up on Skele-gro because Lockhart was coming to Hogwarts, I doubt it. She's not psychic, and for all we know, she was a secret fan of Lockhart's. At any rate, she had no way of knowing that a teacher hired by the seemingly omniscient Dumbledore would cause a student's arm to lose all its bones after it was broken in a fall from a broom. Carol, who has been known to call Dumbledore Voldemort when she didn't proofread a post! From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Thu Jan 27 17:18:00 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 09:18:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <134831.27979.qm@web113904.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 189997 Carol: Possibly, but the other instances of broken bones are rare (Draco's broken arm when he antagonizes Buckbeak)? Most of the injuries she deals with, if they can be called that, seem to be the result of hexes and spilled potions. As for someone's suggestion that Madam Pomfrey stocked up on Skele-gro because Lockhart was coming to Hogwarts, I doubt it. She's not psychic, and for all we know, she was a secret fan of Lockhart's. At any rate, she had no way of knowing that a teacher hired by the seemingly omniscient Dumbledore would cause a student's arm to lose all its bones after it was broken in a fall from a broom. June: My suggestion that Madam Pomfrey stocked up on Skelegrow was because Lockhart was going to be teaching was a joke. That is why I ended it with LOL, that is short for laugh out loud. Also Carol, Buckbeak didn't break Malfoy's arm, he seriously cut it hence the blood that was at the scene. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jan 27 21:19:33 2011 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:19:33 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 189998 > > Geoff: > I think that you are visualising a situation which is unlikely to arise in > normal circumstances. > > Let's consider a real life one. you are in a car accident and are injured. > You might spend time afterwards thinking: "Why didn't I swerve?"; "Why > didn't I jump out?";|"Why didn't I brake hard?". > > In the cold light of hindsight, this might look feasible. But in the moment > before the crash, assuming you had time to see it coming, your logical > thinking might well seize up. Pippin: It might, which is why stunt drivers and racing drivers train for those situations and have cars and gear that are designed to protect them. Presumably, if Quidditch players frequently fall from their brooms, they are trained to save themselves, or they'd be dying fairly often. While it's a foul to deliberately collide with another player, it's not a foul to deliberately send a bludger at one, and the bludger's job, according to Wood, is "trying to knock players off their brooms." (PS/SS ch 10). We are told that people rarely died playing Quidditch (PS/SS ch11), though injuries are frequent. Harry hadn't played Cho before because she'd been out with injuries. Pippin From k12listmomma at comcast.net Thu Jan 27 22:42:08 2011 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:42:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <636491.6555.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <636491.6555.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D41F4C0.4000403@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 189999 On 1/26/2011 1:27 PM, June Ewing wrote: > Carol responds: > We know of several other students besides Harry who are injured > playing Quidditch (doesn't Oliver Wood mention being in the hospital > wing on one occasion?), and Madam Hooch has a supply of Skele-gro on > hand at all times. > > > June: > I think Madam Hooch bought the skelegrow (and several other > medications) when she learned Gilderoy Lockhart was going to be > teaching, LOL. Shelley: I'm going to have to agree with Carol. Students get injured all the time, and given that the students were just learning hexes, curses and potions, it would be wise to have all the right treatments right available in the school to deal with them as the injuries came up. Rarely did they send students to the hospital. I think Gilderoy Lockhart had nothing to do with Skelegro being in the school infirmary, and I suspect that Harry wasn't the first student it was ever used on. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Thu Jan 27 22:56:57 2011 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:56:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <729789.47371.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <729789.47371.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D41F839.3070607@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 190000 On 1/23/2011 11:47 AM, June Ewing wrote: > June: > The one thing in this book that I have always thought about was > when Lavender is crying because she got news that her pet rabbit > had been killed. I love Hermione to pieces but I did think that > she was a little insensitive to Lavender's situation which could > also be why the two best friends and Hermione never really became > friends. Personally I think that Hermione should have kept her > feelings about divination and her logic out of it in this case to > confort a dorm sister who really needed it. What does everyone > else think about this? Shelley You know, in answering this question, I have to put "myself" in that situation. I would see a girl whom I would have probably acted like Hermione to- yes, your rabbit died, yes it's OK to feel sad about it, but for Pete's Sake, let's not go to pieces and milk it for all the attention you can get out of it. Personally, I have little sympathy for the drama queens who just love the attention, and it probably wasn't about the rabbit at all but the chance to get all her fellow girls waiting hand and foot on her because of her "situation". Geeze all mighty! And if the other girls had her, she was being sympathized with, then why would Lavender need me to jump in and be another weepy one with her? Plus, she's milking what I would have also felt to be a lie- the divination was not proven to be correct (or real) because a rabbit died. The irritation about the superstitious girls would trump any sympathy she might have otherwise shown. In this situation, I would have agreed with Hermione and did what she did. Logical, not necessarily insensitive. Remember Hermione is a Muggle-born- she's seen Muggle superstitions and now she's seeing the superstitions of the Wizarding World. But she did not come to Hogwarts to learn all the wrong way to do things, she came to learn how to do real magic. She doesn't have time to pander to Lavender, who is already surrounded by all those other girls, for something that wasn't real (the coming true of a tea leaf or whatever it was that didn't ever tell Lavender that it would be her rabbit that died). Call me unsympathetic, but I would have acted the same way. From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Fri Jan 28 05:41:38 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:41:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <4D41F839.3070607@comcast.net> Message-ID: <297745.95852.qm@web113911.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 190001 > June: > The one thing in this book that I have always thought about was > when Lavender is crying because she got news that her pet rabbit > had been killed. I love Hermione to pieces but I did think that > she was a little insensitive to Lavender's situation which could > also be why the two best friends and Hermione never really became > friends. Personally I think that Hermione should have kept her > feelings about divination and her logic out of it in this case to > confort a dorm sister who really needed it. What does everyone > else think about this? > Shelley: You know, in answering this question, I have to put "myself" in that situation. I would see a girl whom I would have probably acted like Hermione too- yes, your rabbit died, yes it's OK to feel sad about it, but for Pete's Sake, let's not go to pieces and milk it for all the attention you can get out of it. Personally, I have little sympathy for the drama queens who just love the attention, and it probably wasn't about the rabbit at all but the chance to get all her fellow girls waiting hand and foot on her because of her "situation". Geeze all mighty! And if the other girls had her, she was being sympathized with, then why would Lavender need me to jump in and be another weepy one with her? Plus, she's milking what I would have also felt to be a lie- the divination was not proven to be correct (or real) because a rabbit died. The irritation about the superstitious girls would trump any sympathy she might have otherwise shown. In this situation, I would have agreed with Hermione and did what she did. Logical, not necessarily insensitive. Remember Hermione is a Muggle-born- she's seen Muggle superstitions and now she's seeing the superstitions of the Wizarding World. But she did not come to Hogwarts to learn all the wrong way to do things, she came to learn how to do real magic. She doesn't have time to pander to Lavender, who is already surrounded by all those other girls, for something that wasn't real (the coming true of a tea leaf or whatever it was that didn't ever tell Lavender that it would be her rabbit that died). Call me unsympathetic, but I would have acted the same way. > June: It is hard to lose a pet. Those of us who keep them regard them as family. I myself have had to endure the pain of losing a pet (4 at once when my landlord sprayed poison into the walls with holes in my wall that she never had fixed). I believe that even if you do not understand someone crying over a pet who has passed away you should be aware that they too have feelings and be supportive and if you can't then leave and don't talk to them at all. No offense but I found your remarks to be a lot worse than Hermione's and very insensitive. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From k12listmomma at comcast.net Fri Jan 28 22:32:51 2011 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 15:32:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <297745.95852.qm@web113911.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <297745.95852.qm@web113911.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D434413.5070103@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 190002 June: > It is hard to lose a pet. Those of us who keep them regard them as > family. I myself have had to endure the pain of losing a pet (4 at > once when my landlord sprayed poison into the walls with holes in my > wall that she never had fixed). I believe that even if you do not > understand someone crying over a pet who has passed away you should > be aware that they too have feelings and be supportive and if you > can't then leave and don't talk to them at all. No offense but I > found your remarks to be a lot worse than Hermione's and very > insensitive. June, first of all, ask a question, better be prepared for the answer, but don't expect everyone to agree with you or for you to like every response. Yes, I have had pets, I know what it's like for them to die. I am not heartless. But the question was of Hermione's response in the book, and did we find her insensitive. I answered I didn't find her insensitive. I would have, in that situation, been too annoyed at everyone making more to do of a rabbit dying than just the rabbit- using that emotion to say Trelawney was right, which Hermione clearly felt was wrong. She isn't going to give into the emotional reaction of a bunch of crying girls to allow her to distort what she feels is the truth. She's seeing past the emotion. I get that some readers will side with that emotional reaction of "poor rabbit, poor Lavender", and will miss the fact that Hermione is using her head instead. It's what makes Hermione her, and it's what makes me me, and frankly, I don't give a care if anything thinks that I'm insensitive for it. Logical people are not heartless. If Trelawney hadn't been involved, I am sure you would have seen a kinder response from Hermione right then. You have to realize that this also a creatively written book, and Rowling uses the distractions to hide important facts. She uses the emotional response the reader will have ("poor rabbit, poor Lavender") and only later will you step back to connect the facts- Trelawney never mentioned a rabbit. It's not insensitive to look past emotional reactions to see what's really going on behind the scenes. She's showing Hermione's character of valuing truth over emotion, and it's what in later books allows her to keep her head in times of danger to act quickly and very smartly (using Accio to aquire the book on Horcruxes from Dumbledore's office, for example). I value those traits- brilliance, people who keep their heads in a crisis, and I don't find those people insensitive at all but the kind of people I would want to be my doctor for a surgery, or the EMT called to save my life, and I'd much rather that kind of person being driving the car should an accident ever happen, versus the emotional person who is just going to scream at the oncoming car. Shelley From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jan 28 22:51:03 2011 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 22:51:03 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <729789.47371.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 190003 > June: > The one thing in this book that I have always thought about was > when Lavender is crying because she got news that her pet rabbit > had been killed. I love Hermione to pieces but I did think that > she was a little insensitive to Lavender's situation which could > also be why the two best friends and Hermione never really became > friends. Personally I think that Hermione should have kept her > feelings about divination and her logic out of it in this case to > confort a dorm sister who really needed it. What does everyone > else think about this? > Pippin: Hermione and Lavender have been roommates for more than two years at this point. I think their feelings about each other have already developed beyond the point where an expression of sympathy would have changed anything. As Ron said, Hermione must have noticed, way back in PS/SS, that she didn't have any friends. One of the people who wasn't her friend must have been her roommate Lavender. Hermione wasn't very good at picking up social cues from other people, and she hadn't yet developed the ability to compensate by *thinking* about how they must feel. It was a mystery to her why people didn't like her, and resented what Hermione genuinely thought to be helpful advice. I don't agree with Shelley that Hermione thinks Lavender is showing off and trying to get attention. If that was the case, IMO, Hermione would have tried to ignore Lavender instead. Pippin From beccy.talmy at googlemail.com Fri Jan 28 23:19:33 2011 From: beccy.talmy at googlemail.com (Beccy Talmy) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 01:19:33 +0200 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: References: <729789.47371.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 190004 > Pippin: > Hermione wasn't very good at picking up social cues from other people, and she hadn't yet developed the ability to compensate by *thinking* about how they must feel. It was a mystery to her why people didn't like her, and resented what Hermione genuinely thought to be helpful advice. I don't agree with Shelley that Hermione thinks Lavender is showing off and trying to get attention. If that was the > case, IMO, Hermione would have tried to ignore Lavender instead. Beccy: I don't have the book, unfortunately, which is why I haven't been contributing much, but I'm CERTAIN that words such as 'gently' make it clear that Hermione is as gentle as possible in pursuing what Shelley quite rightly identifies as her clear-headed commitment to the truth. Am I right? Sorry, didn't mean to repeat 'gentle' twice, I meant sensitive. Kindness is surely one of Hermione's most prominent personality traits, alongside her intellect, and there's no reason for the two to be in conflict here at all, is there? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 29 15:47:15 2011 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 15:47:15 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 190005 > Pippin wrote: > Hermione wasn't very good at picking up social cues from other people, and she hadn't yet developed the ability to compensate by *thinking* about how they must feel. It was a mystery to her why people didn't like her, and resented what Hermione genuinely thought to be helpful advice. I don't agree with Shelley that Hermione thinks Lavender is showing off and trying to get attention. If that was the case, IMO, Hermione would have tried to ignore Lavender instead. Carol responds: I agree that Hermione was trying to be helpful by pointing out that Lavender's response was irrational. Unfortunately, such a response will come across as insensitive whether it really is so or not. I think that JKR intended Hermione to overrely on intellect only to learn later to value traits that she herself doesn't have. It's partly for that reason that she falls in love with the nonintellectual, fun-loving Ron (and he with her)--they balance each other out to form a more or less complete whole. And Hermione also learns to value Luna, whose ideas she at first dismissed as "loony" (though, IIRC, she never used the nickname). Luna is Hermione's opposite, sensitive, empathetic, intuitive, and compassionate but capable of believing the most absurd ideas. The traits they share, loyalty to Harry and bravery, eventually become more important than their differences. Carol, who thinks that Hermione would be better off (and have more friends) if she didn't try to impose her version of rationality on those who want nothing to do with it From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sat Jan 29 18:58:54 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 29 Jan 2011 18:58:54 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/30/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1296327534.10.3379.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 190006 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 30, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) (The next reminder for this event will be sent in 23 hours, 1 minute.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca Sat Jan 29 19:23:56 2011 From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 11:23:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <346198.22152.qm@web113902.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 190007 > Pippin: Hermione and Lavender have been roommates for more than two years at this point. I think their feelings about each other have already developed beyond the point where an expression of sympathy would have changed anything. As Ron said, Hermione must have noticed, way back in PS/SS, that she didn't have any friends. One of the people who wasn't her friend must have been her roommate Lavender. Hermione wasn't very good at picking up social cues from other people, and she hadn't yet developed the ability to compensate by *thinking* about how they must feel. It was a mystery to her why people didn't like her, and resented what Hermione genuinely thought to be helpful advice. I don't agree with Shelley that Hermione thinks Lavender is showing off and trying to get attention. If that was the case, IMO, Hermione would have tried to ignore Lavender instead. > June: In my opinion Pippin, you are absolutely correct in this. It made me think because we know that Hermione is a good person and it is true that even when trying to console someone our true feelings for them can come out when we least expect it and she probably did mean well toward Lavender but if she really didn't feel any friendship to her and then the bringing up of her least favorite subject/teacher brought about her reaction. That makes a lot of sense. At the same time too that feeling between Hermione and Lavender could have been what brought about Lavender's disbelief in Hermione's best friend (Harry) in OOTP. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jan 30 15:13:00 2011 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:13:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 190008 > > Beccy: > I don't have the book, unfortunately, which is why I haven't been > contributing much, but I'm CERTAIN that words such as 'gently' make > it clear that Hermione is as gentle as possible in pursuing what > Shelley quite rightly identifies as her clear-headed commitment to > the truth. Am I right? Pippin: Er, no, I'm afraid not. Hermione is "hesitant" at first, but in spite of Lavender's continued tears, and Parvati's glaring, she continues on, no "gentleness" mentioned. I agree that Hermione isn't trying to be unkind, but what's coming across isn't a commitment to the truth but a commitment to making sure everyone knows Hermione's opinion, and why should that be more important than what Lavender thinks or feels? If Lavender wants to believe that the heavens themselves blazed forth the death of Binky, what harm will it do? None, which is why, IMO, Hermione could have kept her mouth shut. I think Ron has a point; Hermione doesn't yet understand that people can't just reason themselves out of grief. Beccy: > Sorry, didn't mean to repeat 'gentle' twice, I meant sensitive. > Kindness is surely one of Hermione's most prominent personality > traits, alongside her intellect, and there's no reason for the two > to be in conflict here at all, is there? Pippin: Not in conflict exactly, but maybe the same mental apparatus which makes it so easy for Hermione to process information from books and lectures doesn't work so well when it comes to body language and facial expressions. I'm not saying that every intellectual person is like that, just that Hermione might be. It makes her appear unkind when she doesn't wish to be, unlike, say, Riddle, who places no value on kindness for its own sake, but is immediately and acutely aware of the impression he's making, kind or otherwise. Pippin From siskiou at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 17:34:33 2011 From: siskiou at gmail.com (Susanne) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 09:34:33 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: References: <729789.47371.qm@web113905.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <160872496.20110130093433@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 190009 Hi, Friday, January 28, 2011, 2:51:03 PM, pippin_999 wrote: > Hermione wasn't very good at picking up social cues from other > people, and she hadn't yet developed the ability to compensate by > *thinking* about how they must feel. It was a mystery to her why > people didn't like her, and resented what Hermione genuinely thought to be helpful advice. Very well said and I totally agree with this. At this point in her life, Hermione was still very far from the "emotional range of a tea spoon" scene, where she explains Cho's feelings to both Ron and Harry. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at gmail.com From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jan 30 17:55:55 2011 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 30 Jan 2011 17:55:55 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/30/2011, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1296410155.22.57261.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 190010 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday January 30, 2011 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2011 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 19:34:32 2011 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 19:34:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 190012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > > ... > > it clear that Hermione is as gentle as possible in pursuing what > > Shelley quite rightly identifies as her clear-headed commitment to > > the truth. Am I right? > > Pippin: > Er, no, I'm afraid not. Hermione is "hesitant" at first, but in spite of Lavender's continued tears, and Parvati's glaring, she continues on, no "gentleness" mentioned. I agree that Hermione isn't trying to be unkind, but what's coming across isn't a commitment to the truth but a commitment to making sure everyone knows Hermione's opinion, and why should that be more important than what Lavender thinks or feels?.... > > Pippin > Steve: I'm going to take a slightly different view here. The conversation so far seems to focus on how Hermione is acting and reacting to Lavender, but I don't think it is about Lavender at all. I think Hermione is reasonably sensitive to Lavender losing her rabbit, that part she is objecting to and commenting on is the inference by people that Trelawney predicted it. She is compelled to speak because she thinks Trelawney is a fraud, and can accept other people's equally flawed belief that Trelawney can even predict today's weather. If the whole scene had been about the loss of Lavender's rabbit, I'm sure Hermione would have been as sensitive and sympathetic as anyone else. She is only compelled to speak when Trelawney is brought into the conversation. And it is the illogicness of their claiming Trelawney got the prediction right, that Hermione can't let go unchallenged. It isn't an insensitivity toward Lavender, but a complete disbelief that anyone could see this as an accurate prediction by Trelawney. Though, I don't think I can deny that there was probably a better time and place for Hermione to argue her case. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 23:19:51 2011 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:19:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 190013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: > > Geoff: > > > Quidditch may be a rough sport but knocking off brooms > > > would make it downright lethal. Harry only avoided serious > > > injury in the Hufflepuff match because Dumbledore intervened > > > to bring him down gently - even some of the spectators had > > > feared that he might have been killed. > > Nikkalmati > > > Harry was nearly killed because he was unconscious from the > > effect of the Dementors. Most times a wizard would be able > > to save himself from a fall. > > Geoff: > I'm inclined to disagree with you. Can you advance any canon > evidence for your suggestion? > Steve: As Harry and Hagrid escape in the 'Seven Potters' chapter of the last book, Harry's side car breaks away for Hagrid's motorcycle and begins to free fall, until Harry perform the Levitation spell to save himself. One assumes if a wizard has a wand, it is pretty hard to die in an accident. I believe it was even said that Dumbledore could have saved himself from the fall from the tower, if he had had his wand available. Though one would assume under this circumstance that he had not been hit with a killing curse. That pretty much overrides everything. And Hagrid is outraged at the idea that Harry's parent could have been killed in a car accident. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 23:33:12 2011 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:33:12 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 190014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" wrote: > > > > Geoff: > > > > Quidditch may be a rough sport but knocking off brooms > > > > would make it downright lethal. Harry only avoided serious > > > > injury in the Hufflepuff match because Dumbledore intervened > > > > to bring him down gently - even some of the spectators had > > > > feared that he might have been killed. > > > > Nikkalmati > > > > > Harry was nearly killed because he was unconscious from the > > > effect of the Dementors. Most times a wizard would be able > > > to save himself from a fall. > > > > Geoff: > > I'm inclined to disagree with you. Can you advance any canon > > evidence for your suggestion? > > > > > Steve: > > ... Harry's side car breaks away for Hagrid's motorcycle and > begins to free fall, until Harry perform the Levitation spell > to save himself. > > One assumes if a wizard has a wand, it is pretty hard to die > in an accident. ... > > And Hagrid is outraged at the idea that Harry's parent could > have been killed in a car accident. > > Steve/bboyminn > Steve: I'll add one extra point, though it is not directly from the books. Paraphrased - I believe in an interview JRK was ask how Harry and other wizards could survive the obviously hard knocks they encounter. JKR's reply was that being magical gives then a degree of resilience to hard knocks the normal muggles don't have. While a wizard can certainly die from an accident, they are far less likely to do so than a muggle, both from the innate resilience, and from their magical ability. Steve/bboyminn