CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13: Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw

[Geoff]

No: HPFGUIDX 189989

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Fenney <fenneyml at ...> wrote:

Nikkalmati:
> > > If you disagree about a normal wizard saving himself, think about how
> > Uncle Algee tested Neville when he was a boy. He dropped him out of the
> > window knowing he would not be hurt, if he had magic. Didn't Neville bounce
> > all the way down the road or some such?

Geoff:
> > >Quite correctly, you cite one instance of a wizard saving themselves
> > although this could be an instance of accidental magic such as Harry
> > finishing up on the roof of the school or the incident with Aunt Marge.

> > >Counter to that, you have the case of Neville falling off his broom (PS
> > "The Midnight Duel" pp. 109/10 UK edition). If he had been higher, this cold
> > have resulted in death or serious injury.

> > >Where I disagree is in extrapolating one incident which you quote to "most
> > times".

bookcrazzzy: 
> I have to agree that a normal wizard functioning normally would be able to
> save himself from a fall "most times".  I don't think it is a matter of
> citing instances of wizards falling off their brooms but rather a matter of
> accumulated general knowledge of wizards and magic.  We know that there a
> great many ways that a wizard can respond to a given situation, depending on
> their knowledge, skills, individual strengths, etc., the most obvious
> example of this being the Tri-Wizard Tournament.  With respect to falling
> off a broom, we know that Neville's bouncing is one way and DD's slowing
> Harry down is another way.  We can easily think of other possibilities such
> as summoning another broom, transforming a rock on the ground into a
> mattress, transforming something on the wizard into a balloon, etc.  As long
> as the wizard is not under some impediment that prevents such a response, I
> think it is reasonable to believe it would be normal for him to save himself
> from a fall.

Geoff:
I think that you are visualising a situation which is unlikely to arise in
normal circumstances.

Let's consider a real life one. you are in a car accident and are injured.
You might spend time afterwards thinking: "Why didn't I swerve?"; "Why 
didn't I jump out?";|"Why didn't I brake hard?".

In the cold light of hindsight, this might look feasible. But in the moment
before the crash, assuming you had time to see it coming, your logical
thinking might well seize up. In your scenario, the wizard would have  to
(a) think what to do and (b) remember and perform the spell required.
assuming he or she had the time to do that since some of your options
might take time; I certainly think trying to summon another broom might 
prove a bad one and also, if you are already off your broom and falling
rapidly, getting your wand out from wherever you have stowed it might
prove a problem  - unless you suddenly develop an ability for wandless 
magic. :-)

We already have the evidence that Neville failed to demonstrate a saving
ability on two out of three occasions.  If we look at the canon regarding
early events, we read:
'"Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch," said Neville, "but the 
family thought I was all Muggle for ages. My great-uncle Algie kept trying
to catch me off my guard and force some magic out of me - he pushed 
me off the end of Blackpool pier once, I nearly drowned - but nothing 
happened until I was eight. Great-uncle Algie came round for tea and he 
was hanging me out of an upstairs window by the ankles when my great-
auntie Enid offered him a meringue and he accidentally let go. But I bounced
- all the way down the garden and into the road."'
(PS "The Sorting Hat" p. 93 UK edition)

'"Now, when I blow my whistle, you kick off from the ground, hard," said 
Madam Hooch. "Keep your brooms steady, rise a few feet and then come
straight back down by leaning forwards slightly. One my whistle - three -
two -"

But Neville, nervous and jumpy and frightened of being left on the ground, 
pushed off hard before the whistle had touched Madam Hooch's lips.

"Come back, boy!" she shouted, but Neville was rising straight up like a cork 
shot out of a bottle = twelve feet -  twenty feet. Harry saw his scared white face
look down at the ground falling away, saw him gasp, slip sideways off the broom
and - 

WHAM - a thud and a nasty crack and Neville lay, face down, on the grass in a 
heap.'
(PS "The Midnight Duel" pp.109/10 UK edition).

OK, I accept that Neville was nervous and a young wizard but his disaster 
success rate over these events has been a mere 33.3%. I have a suspicion 
that even experienced wizards might return a similar rate given scenarios such 
as these where very fast thinking and fractions were needed. Hence my 
disbelief over "most times".

If I may move to a different tack over the incident which, to an extent,
triggered this part of the thread - namely Cho's flying.

To refer to canon again:
'Harry accelerated, eyes fixed on the speck of gold ahead - but next second,
Cho had appeared out of thin air, blocking him -
"HARRY, THIS IS NO TIME TO BE A GENTLEMAN!" Wood roared , as Harry swerved
to avoid a collision. "KNOCK HER OFF HER BROOM IF YOU HAVE TO!"'
(POA "Gryffindor versus Ravenclaw" p.193 UK edition).

Nikkalmati: suggested in post 189968 that "The only thing she did
intentionally here was to try to knock him off his broom" and in post 189973 
"As for knocking him off his broom, Quiddach is a very rough sport and that 
would be standard behavior in a match."

It occurred to me later that, if Cho's manoeuvre had been a deliberate attempt 
to knock Harry off. then Madam Hooch should have awarded a foul and also 
cautioned Oliver Wood for encouraging Harry to do the same.

Suggestions that deliberately knocking someone off is standard behaviour is 
wrong. Among the ten most common fouls in modern Quidditch, there is 
Blagging which can apply to all players and is defined as "Flying with intent to 
collide."
(QTTA "Rules" p.29)