[HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort

[Margaret Fenney]

No: HPFGUIDX 190728

> Librasmile:

> The smile is simply an attempt to be diplomatic. But one would think that
logic or common sense would also have some role to play. Instead, what I'm
seeing is folks continually proposing an argument
> that's being bent out of all kinds of realistic shape to support a
conclusion that's been made without evidence. I keep seeing anti-Snape folks
do backflips to preclude ANY possibility of him having any kind
> of positive trait at all. Which certainly isn't my idea of a discussion.
I've been quite open in my bias but I'm not seeing the same thing. Not with
everyone and no one's been insulting per se (including
> myself). But I can now see why I lurked for so long. There's very little
that's new being created here. There are no new insights rather just
constantly unproductive batting back and forth.

Bookcrazzzy (new comment):

I find your posts quite ironic because they are a perfect example of what
you are complaining about.  You made the following statement:

<snip>

Librasmile:
I don't want to get into a long back and forth because clearly folks are
just
taking their position and sticking to it. But I'm a complete absolute Snape
fan.
I don't see him as flawless. But it still puzzles me that people can see him
being harassed for years and then NOT see that incident in the Shack as an
attempt to kill him. If there wasn't a werewolf involved AND if Sirius and
crew
hadn't been harassing him for YEARS with NO restraint from school authority,
then yes I would say it was just an impulsive act. But from where I'm
sitting
hostile intent had been established for years before this latest incident
and
that hostility naturally leads to an attempt to kill Severus. As far as I'm
concerned Sirius intended to kill, didn't give a rat's ass what would have
happened to Lupin ( until after the fact when he realized that LUPIN could
have
been killed ), and James was only saving the Marauders' a**'s when he saved
Snape. But people are going to believe what they want to believe. I just
know if
I were the victim I wouldn't want them on the jury because they'd let my
accuser
go and then where do I go for help? Who's going to keep me safe? Who's got
enough power to stop 2 rich and powerful boys who damn near got away with my
murder once before from trying it again. Oh wait, there's this new group
forming
and Malfoy is in it. Surely a Malfoy can counter a Black...

But no, no, let's all just go with the thought of Severus being
thoughtlessly
evil. Cause he'll be so much safer once he's out of school...of course he
will
be...
<snip>


Bookcrazzzy (new comment):

I then replied with the following post which brought several things from
canon into the discussion:

<snip>
Bookcrazzzy:

I don't think of Snape as being thoughtlessly evil by any means, nor do I
think him the purely innocent victim that you seem to consider him to be.
Consider that while a student, he developed the Levicorpus spell that was
used by James against him. How, may I ask, did it become known among the
students unless Snape used it against someone at some point and would you
think his intent when developing it was "innocent"? He also developed
Sectumsempra specifically, as he noted in his potions book, "for enemies."
Sectumsempra is without question a lethal curse and I don't think there is
much question that the Marauders were included in Snape's "enemies". By
comparison, the Marauders developed the Map which was clearly for mischief
making, became animagi to support a friend, and did not do anything at any
point that supports a theory of lethal intent except for the Shrieking Shack
incident. I don't see the Marauders as innocent either but I believe them
to be immature boys, not evil incarnate and I believe Sirius to be the most
impulsive, thoughtless and least mature of the group but not a murderer.

I believe JKR gave her prominent characters strengths and weaknesses which
is part of what makes them believable. We all have our failings.

I will also note that Snape harassed Harry (and per my previous post, I
believe he did not hate Harry but thought he was acting in "the boy's best
interest" when he did so), for years and from a position of considerable
authority over Harry but Harry never attempted to murder him.
<snip>

Bookcrazzzy (new comment):

You did not bother to address any of the items from canon but posted the
following two replies:

<snip>
Librasmile:
Yes, but those are the conclusions you come to when you see Snape
as a human being which is not a position that any amount of logic,
rational argument, common sense or anything else that an anti-Snape
person can accept. =^)

Librasmile:
Missed the point I see.
It's not a question of pro or con but a question of...impenetrability. I
would expect to see some new insights in a discussion. I expect exchange,
even in a discussion of fiction - ESPECIALLY in a discussion of fiction - to
generate responses that don't seem to be equivalent to political parties
holding firm to their positions regardless of what logic or genuinely valid
alternate views are expressed. Forget my own Snape bias which I freely
admit. If Snape were substituted with some other person in the Shrieking
Shack incident, I fully believe that the anti-Snape arguments would change.
The non-Snape victim would receive some modicum of sympathy. There would be
some acknowledgement of Sirius culpability. I certainly don't expect
cheerleaders for Snape but I do expect to see some acknowledgement that
there equally valid counter arguments against seeing Snape as purely evil.
However, that's not what I see. I simply see the equivalent of partisan
radio or talk shows.
So thank you. I've at last taken the time to get a good look at what's going
on here and I shall value it accordingly.

<snip>

Bookcrazzzy (new comment):

My point is this:  all of your posts have been about how other people are
biased and are not creating anything new, not bringing forth new insights,
not adding to the discussion, not supporting conclusions with evidence from
canon.  I fail to see where you have done any of these things or otherwise
contributed something of value.  My post about Snape was not from a
Snape-hater but from a person with moderate views on Snape and Sirius and
was a true attempt at discussion with multiple aspects of canon brought in
to support my ideas.  You chose to ignore all of that and make more noise
about how people hate Snape and won't budge from their point of view.

It is true that many ideas come up repeatedly on this list but there is
plenty of good discussion and people do change or moderate their views as a
result of those discussions.   If you want to discuss then do so - put forth
some ideas instead of doing nothing but criticizing other people for doing
exactly the same thing that you are doing.  If you want value then give
some!  Provide an example, just one, of what you would like to see in terms
of discussion and you might be surprised by what you find.  In the meantime,
I will value your posts accordingly.

Bookcrazzzy
with apologies to those who read through this whole thing but I had to put
it all in to make the point.


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