Dumbledore/LONG and bad, SKIP if you do not feel like reading it :-)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 190929



DELETED  AND REPOSTED TO TAKE OUT EXTRA QUOTES AND ADD FEW SENTENCES

.> Pippin:
> There's a name for theories that have to be supported by saying that JKR
should have written the books differently. It's AU. What gets frustrating for
me is if a theory repeatedly veers into AU territory without the poster
realizing it. As you say, every bit of ESE!Lupin theory had canon support, and
believe me, my books were dotted with post-its for every bit and it was a sad
moment for me when I pulled them all out. ::Sigh::

Alla:
Yes of course, that is what AU is, but no, I do not feel that my views of Dumbledore are AU.  And neither am I saying that JKR SHOULD have written the books differently, it is more like I am saying that JKR's off page characterization of Dumbledore is not something I see in canon.
I am not saying that JKR should have written different books, I am saying that sometimes her intent does not come through for me in the book she wrote. There is a big difference IMO, even if I will say that different Dumbledore would have worked better for me. I am quite happy with Dumbledore I see, somebody who feels like not just Grey character, but VERY grey character.
I disagree about Dumbledore being mostly good character, that is very true, but I am not upset or anything with Dumbledore that I DO see in canon. It does not stop me from wishing for Lighter!Dumbledore of course, but not because I am unhappy with what she wrote, call it a reminder from the times, when I was actually sad knowing that I am reading Dumbledore against writer's intent. 


Actually I do not even have a theory about Dumbledore. I just see his canon
actions in different light than what JKR seems to want to show. I would not even
call him ESE!Dumbledore, just somebody who is ready and willing to manipulate
everybody to achieve his goals. I am not making up what he did, I just do not
see "epithome of goodness" as JKR and you do, thats all.

Fact:
Dumbledore wanted wizards dominate over muggles and muggleborns, which is
exactly what Voldemort wanted to do. Even if those views were in WW way before
Dumbledore came along surely it is not a great stretch of imagination to think
that Voldemort took at least SOME example in Dumbledore and Grindelwald "early
years"?

Fact:

Dumbledore decided he does not want to implement those ideas, that he is
remorseful over it. Fact - or at least we have not seen anything to the contrary
in canon, Dumbledore KNOWS that Tom Riddle is Lord Voldemort but does not tell
anybody. I do not care that Tom Riddle had a perfect reputation before he
dissappeared. Fact is voldemort is a magical mystery to everybody, somebody who
is supposedly so unknown to WW that he cannot be defeated. Known evil is a
lesser evil, thats just common sense to me and Dumbledore does not tell anybody
that Tom Riddle is a pitiful human who has sociopathic tendencies, but not the
mysterious creature, who undergone those transformations? Thats not what
epithome of goodness does as far as I am concerned. So, my interpetation of it
is not AU, because what I am interpreting happened in canon.

Fact:

Dumbledore disregarded the wishes of Lily and James that in case of their death
Harry would be brought up with Sirius and took him to Dursleys. Actually he
"commanded" Hagrid to do so, did he use the nice language there by the way? I do
not remember, but I doubt it.

Dumbledore claims that he wanted Harry to be proteced by blood protection
because Petunia is Lily's sister. Could it be so? I had been saying for years
that I wished JKR would have actually shown it to us in order for me to feel
better about it. But even if protection is there, maybe JKR feels it is okay to
have a life full of abuse and neglect on the off topic chance that when
deatheaters come Harry will survive it. I don't. I interpret Dumbledore giving
Harry to Dursleys and never once interfering to stop the abuse as the actions of
VERY dark and quite disgusting character. Thats not AU Pippin, thats different
look on what happened in canon. Once Dumbledore took a baby from somebody who
was supposed to care for him, I think Dumbledore owed him a duty of care. Thats
fine, if JKR sees it differently, but what she put on paper formed quite dark
and sinister view of Dumbledore in my mind.

But of course the best comes in book seven. JKR spells it out for us that
Dumbledore tells Snape that Harry has to die. Could he want for Harry to live?
Sure I see that it is possible, even if I disagree with it. It would be great
though if she spelled it out at least in Dumbledore's last speech. Something
like, I don't know - I NEVER WANTED you to die, I was hoping that my plan of you
surviving will work.

I can see how it could have been her intent, what I do not see is how it made
clear in the book. Magic of sacrifice worked, I just doubt that Dumbledore had
much to do with it.


Pippin:
> Canon fact is, the books do distinguish, plainly and unmistakably, between
Dumbledore giving Harry information and Dumbledore giving Harry orders.

Alla:

Indeed. But where I did say that it did not?.Of course there are times when
Dumbledore gives Harry's information and not orders. Dumbledore gave Harry
plenty of information through the books which were not orders. What I am saying,
what I was saying originally is disagreeing with your argument that when
Dumbledore was "asking" Harry not to share the information about Horcruxes with
*anybody* but Ron and Hermione, that it was anything but the command. To me, it
was extremely clear command, no matter what language Dumbledore used.


.

Pippin:
<Snip>
> But it was Harry's choice to maintain that relationship after Dumbledore had
died. Harry's reasons for doing that are complicated, IMO. Just as with his
father and Sirius, Harry doesn't want to have to believe that Dumbledore ever
did anything seriously wrong or made any really bad mistakes -- except for
trusting Snape, of course -- and that prevents him from seeing that he is
repeating some of Dumbledore's mistakes himself.

Alla:

But of course it was Harry's "choice". After all Dumbledore is a brainless and
soulless portrait now. Dumbledore's brainwashing Harry paid off really well.

Have I mentioned how much more I loved the scene with Elder wand in the Movie?
To me movie makers were kind enough to "clean up" this part of the ending which
I cannot stand and had I not wanted to avoid some movie contamination, I would
have happily agreed to remember this scene rather than the book one. To me
Movie!Harry becomes his own man and Canon!Harry I have to imagine so.


.Pippin:
> Certainly I agree that Dumbledore was attempting to form Harry's character as
well as impart information and skills. But that's not a bad thing, IMO. That is
what education is supposed to do, not only give us knowledge but a moral and
philosophical framework for using it.

Alla:

Only IMO the education that stops you from questioning with critical eye what
you had been told could be extremely dangerous education and character's forming
is all good to a degree IMO.

Pippin:
> Dumbledore does want Harry to believe that one person can make a difference.
And I think JKR wants to show us that, not just because the genre demands it,
but because it's what she believes. She could have chosen a different genre,
after all. The books show not only that one person can make a difference but
why, sometimes, one person has to.

Alla:

Certainly one person can make a difference in many ways, good or bad, but one
person saving the world? Well, I personally am aware of *one* religious figure
doing that (I mean we have other religious figures too). It is all in the degree
for me. But again, since I have a very clear picture in my mind of what JKR
wanted to accomplish with that ending, I really do not mind it. It is how she
made Harry to get there and the damage which I think was inflicted upon him by
Dumbledore is what makes me sad.

Let me say it very strongly, I am not opposed to the ending of the story as
Harry reminding us of Christ. Only again, before Harry saw the memories, he was
fighting to survive, he had no plans of doing that. And as soon as he sees
Dumbledore saying it, his brain snaps in obedience and voula, now it all makes
sense for him.

Pippin:
> The WW is a society that has forgotten how to trust, so much that what sounds
like the blandest platitudes to us --"we are only as strong as we are united, as
weak as we are divided"-- is treated as radical nonsense by most of the WW. What
Harry did by walking into the forest was help to restore that trust, by showing
that one person could treat every life as if it was worth the same and every
life was worth dying for.

Alla:

Well, again, the ending has for me very strong religious parallels, but thats
fine by me.

Pippin;
> He did not want Harry to make a hot-headed, rash decision about the hallows,
or about destroying the horcrux in himself, before Harry fully understood what
his choices were. But he was hampered because Harry did not want choices, he
wanted certainties, even if the certainty was death.

Alla:

He made Harry's choices for him though IMO. Didn't he say I wanted to slow you
down?! I find that horrifying and indefensible personally. As you said, it is
not a training exercise no more, it is war. Instead of allowing him to proceed
more efficiently, he sends kids on Hallows chase. Again, JKR may have seen it as
a teaching exercise or something, which is perfectly acceptable, I dont. I see a
man, who again is so enarmored with his own ego and cleverness, that he deemed
it okay to teach Harry more lessons from the grave, no matter how inaccetable
timing was IMO.

Pippin:
> We could ask whether Dumbledore would have wanted Harry to destroy himself to
get rid of the horcrux if that was the only way. Dumbledore's triumph, IMO, was
in refusing to believe it could be the only way, even in that interval between
the destruction of the philosopher's stone and Voldemort's re-embodiment with
Harry's blood, when it must have seemed that keeping Harry alive was going to be
a losing battle.

Alla:

All I wanted is a little more clarity that he really tried to keep Harry
survive. The fact that Harry survived just does not cut it, because ancient
magic does not need Dumbledore's help to work, doesn't it?

JMO,
Alla