Harry's alleged debt to Dumbledore and Snape WAS: Re: Chapter Discussion

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 190942

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> Alla:
> 
> If by misdirecting the reader you mean complicating the theme of friendship, loyalty and sacrifice by figuring out who is the master of the stick, then I will agree with you, otherwise to me it is just introducing a new toy to complicate thing and the least thematic one of all three Hallows IMO actually, for Harry I mean. Harry never was really tempted by Elder wand, he was tempted by resurrection stone, Dumbledore was tempted by it.
> 

Pippin:
Obviously, JKR wanted Harry's mastery of the Elder Wand to be as big a surprise to the reader as it was to Voldemort. That entailed a certain amount of confusion. But it was necessary -- if it's too easy for the reader to figure out, then it makes Voldemort look stupid for not figuring it out also. 

 But Harry *was* tempted by the Elder Wand, just not in the way that Dumbledore expected him to be. Harry was tempted to take it, not to use it himself but to keep it away from Voldemort. But it still would have been dangerous in his hands. 

Harry never planned to use the Cruciatus or Imperius curses, but under pressure he still did, and it seems that   even Draco's wand made it easier for him. What he would have done with the Elder Wand in his hands might have been even worse. Harry seems to think so, since he is adamant that the Elder Wand be replaced in Dumbledore's tomb.  

> > Bookcrazzzy:
> > DD was the main proponent of unity in the WW.  He reached out to all
> > creatures without prejudice in ways that no one else did - learning mermish,
> > hiring Firenze, sending Hagrid to the giants, treating the house elves
> > differently and more.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes he did. Only the thing is, those beings play minor roles in the story, except Dobby of course, who is as we are told repeatedly is an odd elf out who wants to be free and when it came to people who are more major characters, I do not see the promotion of that unity at all. So yes, of course I did not mean to deny that he tried to reach out to other races. 
> 

Pippin:
Once again I must observe that Dumbledore is not reading the book over JKR's shoulder. He has no idea who is a major character in the story and who is not, so I do not know what you mean here. But Lupin and Hagrid play at least as large a role in the story as Dobby. Dumbledore can only reach out to those who are willing, and unfortunately such people are, as in real life, often estranged from their own kind and don't have much influence themselves. But that's not Dumbledore's fault. 

Alla:
. Note that when Dumbledore had a chance to influence unity at the bigger scale, of course he denied and did not want to be a minister. 

Pippin:
Fudge was clear on what would happen if he sent envoys to the Giants or dismissed the dementors -- he wouldn't be minister for long. If Dumbledore had been in his place, he would still be dealing with the same prejudiced and ignorant constituency, and unfortunately he had no magic cure for that.  He hoped the children of the WW would listen to him because they weren't so corrupted by the prejudices of their elders. But even if they were, they wouldn't be able to oppose him by force, so he did not have to fear that he would be tempted to use force against them.  

 When Dumbledore asked openly for unity, at the end of GoF, he lost much of his authority to Umbridge and then was ousted as soon as Fudge could find an excuse. And  most of the WW was okay with that. 

Alla:
> As to how they could have helped? Lets see, Lupin suggested his help in the search, which Harry mightily rejected, here is one possibility.

Pippin:
Harry did not reject Lupin's help because he was afraid that Lupin would betray him. He specifically denied that possibility. He rejected Lupin's help because he felt Lupin belonged with  his wife and unborn child. 

But Lupin already had helped save Harry by teaching him the Patronus Charm. Firenze rescued Harry from Quirrellmort in the forest, Hagrid helped Harry to get the memory from Slughorn and to solve the mystery of the Chamber of Secrets and so destroy the diary, Kreacher helped Harry get the locket horcrux and aided him in the battle of Hogwarts, and the centaurs did join in that battle eventually. The merpeople didn't do very much, aside from informing  Dumbledore  about Harry's moral fibre -- but then, as I said, Dumbledore has no way of knowing who is going to be able to help Harry and who is not.  

Pippin