Dumbledore/LONG and bad, SKIP if you do not feel like reading it :-)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 191006


> Alla: 
> > Dumbledore decided he does not want to implement those ideas, that he is
> > remorseful over it. Fact - or at least we have not seen anything to the contrary
> > in canon, Dumbledore KNOWS that Tom Riddle is Lord Voldemort but does not tell
> > anybody. I do not care that Tom Riddle had a perfect reputation before he
> > dissappeared. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Saying you don't care about canon facts does not make them go away:)  This one shows that Tom Riddle was not remembered as a pitiful human who had sociopathic tendencies.  Dumbledore could not get anyone to believe that when Riddle was at Hogwarts, so how was he to get anyone to believe it later? He has no proof. Known is better than unknown indeed, but not if what everybody "knows" is a lie. 

Alla:

Right, however he was not remembered as a mystery creature who cannot be defeated either. IMO it is easier to fight against human wizard than against a mystery.


 
> Pippin:
> I do not see any evidence that Dumbledore thought it was okay. He never says it was okay. He only says there are worse things. That is JKR's opinion, I am sure. You are welcome to disagree with her, but it doesn't follow that Dumbledore wanted Harry to die, not when he is going to such elaborate lengths to keep him alive. 
> 
> There's often a choice, when someone is in serious danger, between  trying to keep them comfortable until the end comes, or trying to save them  at the cost of considerable pain and probable damage. That, to me, is the choice that JKR put before Dumbledore. 

Alla:

As I mentioned before, to me the problem is not just that Dumbledore left Harry with Dursleys. I mean it is the problem for me, but only half of it. As I said, to me she did not show the protection clear enough, but I can certainly accept that it was there. JKR made it hard for me to do so, but she definitely said it. To me the bigger problem is that nowhere in the book as far as I can see it says that Dumbledore could not visit Dursleys and put considerable pressure on them to treat Harry better. And no, I do not care how much threat of blackmail and/or physical damage he would apply to make Dursleys obey him. He took a responsibility upon himself to rule the fate of the innocent baby, and if he can only protect him by threatening Dursleys, I say so be it. As I also mentioned before, we see that Petunia obeys the letter in OOP, period. I do not see why he could not do the same thing decade earlier. 
In other words the choice you are describing is a false dishotomy for me, because I interpret that Dumbledore COULD make Harry's life easier even with Dursleys and did not do so. The pain and damage in my view was not necessary to keep Harry safe. I mean, to take Dursleys in his life, maybe, but not to tolerate the way they treated Harry. 


Pippin:
>  It's very possible that if it had known the truth,  the WW would have given up on Harry the way it would have given up on Arianna. Do you think they would have trusted Harry with a wand at all, much less a  wand that was brother to Voldemort's, if they knew that Harry had a bit of Voldemort's soul inside him? 

Alla:

LOL. Dumbledore had no problem not giving information to so many people, why would you think that if he gave Harry to wizarding family, like I don't know, Weasleys, he would have suddenly decided to share such information.

> 
> Alla:
> > 
> > But of course the best comes in book seven. JKR spells it out for us that
> > Dumbledore tells Snape that Harry has to die. Could he want for Harry to live?
> 
> PIppin:
> Of course, everything in the books up until then can be read as Dumbledore always planned for Harry to die  because JKR wants Harry and the reader to think that's what the plan was. But then there's the gleam. That's another canon fact that won't go away. Sure it was ambiguous, right up until Dumbledore explained what it meant. 
> 
> "He took your blood believing it would strengthen him. He took into his body a tiny part of the enchantment your mother laid upon you when she died for you. His body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, so do you and so does Voldemort's one last hope for himself."
> Dumbledore smiled at Harry, and Harry stared at him. 
> "And you knew this? You knew--all along?"
> "I guessed. But my guesses have usually been good" -- DH ch 35

Alla:

Yes, but I thought I already explained that I am still confused and not sure how that actually works. 

> > 
> > 
> > Pippin:
> > > Canon fact is, the books do distinguish, plainly and unmistakably, between
> > Dumbledore giving Harry information and Dumbledore giving Harry orders.
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Indeed. But where I did say that it did not?.
> 
> Pippin:
> Post 190901:
> " Dumbledore trained Harry to make sure that every
> word from his mouth is accepted as command at the end IMO."
> 
> To me that sounds as if you think Dumbledore brainwashed Harry so that he could no longer tell the difference between instruction and orders. My apologies if that is not what you meant.


Alla:

No, that is what I meant *between instruction and orders*, but I definitely did not mean that Harry could not distinguish between Dumbledore giving him information and orders, instruction and orders is the same thing for me.


> 
> 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > But of course it was Harry's "choice". After all Dumbledore is a brainless and
> > soulless portrait now. Dumbledore's brainwashing Harry paid off really well.
> 
> Pippin:
> I don't think the Headmaster portraits are supposed to be brainless or soulless. They are magical objects that can think for themselves and like the ghosts, they bear an imprint of the soul of the wizard they portray. 

Alla:

Yes, I know they are imprint, but not the soul itself, no?


> Pippin:
> I like that scene too. Obviously the filmmakers have to take some liberties with the story in order to tell it visually. They are not going to get into the nerdy discourse on wandlore that we have in The Tales of Beedle the Bard to explain why the wand could not have been broken a long time ago.  But even in DH Harry points out that Hermione should not have been able to break his wand if it was so powerful. 

Alla:

Yes, I was talking to somebody offlist and we agreed that Harry's breaking the wand reflects poorly on Dumbledore - if Harry could break it up, why not Dumbledore. What I liked however, is that Harry dealt with the wand without asking Dumbledore what to do with it. If he would have hidden it without asking Dumbledore first, I would have loved it just as much.


Pippin: 
> To me, Harry became his own man when he decided he did not need to know exactly how Arianna had died. It doesn't matter because he is no longer measuring himself against Dumbledore.  Harry at last knows who he is, and he is who he wants to be, and I think that is the greatest gift Dumbledore gave him. 

Alla:

Unfortunately him asking Dumbledore's opinion about the wand and whether he did right thing to me contradicts what you are saying. I think it shows that he is still measuring himself against Dumbledore and wants his approval. Thus I would have to fight really hard not to be contaminated by this scene lol, I just sighed happily when I saw it.

Pippin:
> Which does not preclude Harry from asking Dumbledore's portrait for advice.-If you (not you, Alla) only discuss things with people who share your view of the world and think  exactly the way you do, you are not likely to learn very much -- which is why I enjoy our discussions even though we see canon so differently. 

Alla:

But he does do exactly what Dumbledore says, thats my problem. Heh, I always like talking to you too :).

.> > Alla:
> > 
> > All I wanted is a little more clarity that he really tried to keep Harry
> > survive. The fact that Harry survived just does not cut it, because ancient
> > magic does not need Dumbledore's help to work, doesn't it?
> 
> Pippin:
> It needed Dumbledore's help for Harry to trust that  there was  ancient magic that would save him, which it did.  It just required Harry to believe, for a very short time, that his trust had been misplaced. 


Alla:

I like it, I do, believe me in my mind Dumbledore committed enough sins without me thinking that he wanted Harry dead, I am more than happy to be convinced of the opposite. But him saying that to Snape is just so clear and the opposite IMO is so much less clear. But I certainly see how it could be true.