From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  1 04:47:13 2011
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 04:47:13 -0000
Subject: Patronus
In-Reply-To: <is3ogi+ep7m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <is4g8h+9evg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190483

> > June:
> > snip
> . So the Dementors do affect people
> > differently and the death eaters, although they too must have bad
> > things in their past, are probably not affected by them because they
> > are the ones doing the bad things to everyone else. I actually got
> > a kick out of the idea of the Dementors when I first read the book.
> > I tell people now if they say they are feeling down that there must be a dementor around, lol.
> >
> 
> Potioncat:
> But, if Dementors didn't affect Death Eaters, then why have Azkaban? It seemed to have taken a toll on all those who went there,if you ask me. 

Joey:

Ah, yes. I think I agree with Steve also here. Dementors do affect Death Eaters (everyone, for that matter) - a stay at Azkaban will not be easy for *anybody* - it will take a toll. Sirius says almost everyone sort of goes mad at Azkaban. It's just that the DEs handle it better than the others as they are mentally strong to handle Dementors (not morally strong, mentally strong).

>Potioncat:
> We know that Snape offered a difference defense against Dementors. I imagine DEs would use that spell (whatever it is) rather than Expecto Patronum.

>Miles:
>I always had the idea that Occlumency is Snape's answer to the effects of Dementors. Closing your mind against them, would make it impossible for them to extract any feelings from you.

Joey:

Good one! Possible. Bellatrix was teaching Draco Occlumency, wasn't she? She may not have been as great at it as Snape was but I guess she did give a try at Azkaban. Harry says Bellatrix lost most of her beauty at Azkaban but I suppose that was the maximum Dementors could do to her. Her "spirit" didn't seem to have died down at all.






From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Jun  1 20:34:17 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 13:34:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Patronus
In-Reply-To: <is3ogi+ep7m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <918025.36429.qm@web113907.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190484

> June:
> So the Dementors do affect people differently and the death eaters,
> although they too must have bad things in their past, are probably
> not affected by them because they are the ones doing the bad things
> to everyone else. <snip>

> Potioncat:
> But, if Dementors didn't affect Death Eaters, then why have
> Azkaban? It seemed to have taken a toll on all those who went
> there,if you ask me.
>
> We know that Snape offered a difference defense against Dementors.
> I imagine DEs would use that spell (whatever it is) rather than
> Expecto Patronum.


June:
Good point, you are right, so the death eaters are affected the
same as everyone else is. Maybe there is some dark spell they use
when working with the dementors so they aren't affected.










From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Jun  1 20:42:31 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 13:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Patronus
In-Reply-To: <is3ti4+10vdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <582159.36701.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190485

> Steve:
> <snip> We know that the Dementors do not automatically Kiss
everyone they meet, that implies they are capable of a degree of
restrain. And I also suspect that they can apply that to the general
effect they have. If they meet someone they are allied with, whether
the Ministry or the Death Eaters, they can restrain their feeding
> frenzy, and as a result the effect is not so strong.

> But, I do think that anyone in the presence of even the most
self-restraining Dementor is going to feel the cloud of darkness and
misery come over them. However, if the Dementors are restrained, they
can tolerate the misery long enough to do the job at hand, and then
> get the he|| out of there. <snip>


June:
Let's not forget that in POA they were supposed to be working with
Dumbledore yet they still showed up at the Quidditch match because
they could not resist the life that was there. I do not think that
they really think in terms of being someone's ally. If Dumbledore
wasn't there to stop it they would have killed Harry (although that
was not their intention) and probably sucked the soul out of everyone
there. I think they are allies to the death eaters because they are
promised "work with us and you will have unlimited people to kiss."



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  2 17:26:35 2011
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 17:26:35 -0000
Subject: Patronus
In-Reply-To: <is3ogi+ep7m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <is8h4b+8stb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190486

> Potioncat:
> But, if Dementors didn't affect Death Eaters, then why have Azkaban? It seemed to have taken a toll on all those who went there,if you ask me. 
> 
> We know that Snape offered a difference defense against Dementors. I imagine DEs would use that spell (whatever it is) rather than Expecto Patronum.
>
Carol responds:

My guess is that they used Occlumency. Snape would be especially good at keeping them from affecting him if that were the case. That might explain how Bellatrix, who knew enough Occlumency to teach the basics of it to Draco, survived Azkaban. (Maybe being a bit crazy to begin with helped her, too. ;-) ). Sirius Black, of course, survived by concentrating on his innocence and/or transforming into a dog.

I think that the reason Snape didn't teach his alternate defense (only its existence) to his DADA is that it was much too difficult for most of the students and did not involve a spell; it would have been nearly impossible to teach to a group of students. As for Harry, if Occlumency was the alternate defense, we can see why he would prefer a Patronus! (We also know that the Dementors affected him more than they did other people because of his terrible memories. Other people with terrible memories--among them Snape, DD, Black, and Lupin--seem to have had some sort of defense, whether a Patronus, Occlumency, an Animagus form or something else.)

I suspect that Fudge also used Occlumency. Barty Jr. apparently never learned it, or he wouldn't have been so badly affected by the Dementors during his sentencing and in Azkaban. (Of course, at the end of GoF, he was in no condition to attempt it even if he knew it.)

To answer someone else's question, it seems clear that the Dementors do know English or they couldn't obey (or disobey) the Ministry (and DD), nor could they know to bury the dead prisoners (e.g., Barty's Polyjuiced mother). How they could tell Sirius Black from anyone else, being blind, I don't know.

Carol, wondering if Wormtail could have escaped being soul-sucked by transforming into a rat






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Jun  3 05:07:11 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 05:07:11 -0000
Subject: Patronus
In-Reply-To: <582159.36701.qm@web113918.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <is9q5v+f5tm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190487


> 
> 
> June:
> Let's not forget that in POA they were supposed to be working with
> Dumbledore yet they still showed up at the Quidditch match because
> they could not resist the life that was there.

Pippin:
That was Lupin's explanation, but he was wrong, IMO. They showed up because Sirius Black was there. Harry saw  him, in dog form, just before they arrived. Harry,   who is super-sensitive, passed out, but no one else was so drastically affected. Cedric not only didn't fall off his broom, he was able to catch  the Snitch. 

It isn't easy for Dementors to distinguish one human from another, but they do seem to get the concept that if they refrain from attacking their allies, they will get a steady supply of food. They have no faithfulness and will desert one ally for another, but they do ally themselves. As you say, they didn't mean to attack Harry.  If they had succeeded in catching Black I am sure Fudge would have overlooked their incursion into the grounds.

Pippin

Pippin
 I do not think that
> they really think in terms of being someone's ally. If Dumbledore
> wasn't there to stop it they would have killed Harry (although that
> was not their intention) and probably sucked the soul out of everyone
> there. I think they are allies to the death eaters because they are
> promised "work with us and you will have unlimited people to kiss."
>





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Fri Jun  3 16:16:02 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Patronus
In-Reply-To: <is8h4b+8stb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <909577.45136.qm@web113916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190488

<snip>
> Carol, wondering if Wormtail could have escaped being soul-sucked
> by transforming into a rat

June:
In answer to your question, I doubt that Wormtail could have escaped
being soul-sucked by transforming into a rat because he is one and
the Dementors wouldn't have noticed a difference when he transformed,
lol.



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jun  5 16:55:10 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Jun 2011 16:55:10 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/5/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1307292910.566.13086.m13@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190489

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 5, 2011
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2011 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20110605/acdab967/attachment.html>

From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Jun  6 02:42:51 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 02:42:51 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <irch1t+fgc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isherb+t6st@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190490



> Questions
> 1. Lupin says the Marauders' map never lies, could this be a support for the
> argument that the map does not have dark magic in it? Do you agree or disagree
> with it?
>

Nikkalmati

The map never lies in the sense that what it shows is always correct.   It is not sentient.  What it shows reflects reality.  Lupin of course knows this because he helped in its creation.  I don't think it involved Dark Magic.  Didn't the Mauraders hate Dark Magic?  It is a complex piece of charm work.  I am not sure how it could insult Snape in Ch. 14 unless it had been preprogramed years earlier in case Snape found it.
Nikkalmati

> 2. Did you believed Lupin and Black (if you remember of course) when you were
> reading the book for the first time that Peter was in the room?
>
Nikkalmati

Yes, I had no reason not to believe it.

Nikkalmati
 
> 3. As some of you may know as a Sirius' fan, but first and foremost as a reader,
> I absolutely refuse to place all the blame for the prank on Sirius. I happen to
> feel that just as Sirius had no business telling Snape about Remus' secret,
> Snape had no business whatsoever of going to the Shack and nobody actually
> forced him to go there. However as the very same reader, I am still racking my
> brain what the hell was Sirius thinking would have happened to Remus if he were
> to bite Snape, or if Snape would simply uncover his secret. So what was he
> thinking? Was he thinking anything?

Nikkalmati

I don't think any one places all the blame on Sirius, but he bears most of it.  :>)  He knew the truth and what was likely to happen.  Snape did not.  Being nosey or anitch does not deserve death.  Just try setting a lethal trap for a burgler and find out what the law says about that.  You would be in jail and all your possessions probably would end up in the hands of the burgler's living relatives.  

The second point always puzzled me.  What was Sirius thinking?  I guess he thought if Snape kept snooping around he would eventually find out what the Animagi were doing and he thought something like "a dead Snape tells no tales." We see he is portrayed as reckless and heedless even as an adult, so I guess I can go with that - but how could Lupin forgive him when the consequences for him were expulsion or possible execution?  Didn't James resent even a little that he had to risk his life because of that stupid trick?  How did Dumbledore get Snape to agree to keep mum?  That's another puzzle.

Nikkalmati

> 
> 4. When Lupin was telling his interpretation of the Prank, were you curious
> whether "
" after him saying that Snape was jealous of James' Quidditch talent
> meant that there was more to the story?

Nikkalmati

I found that hard to believe because Snape did not seem to be involved in Quidditch.  I thought Lupin was just mistaken.  Now I think he didn't want to discuss the real reasons.

Nikkalmati
> 
> 5. Were you shocked to see Snape appear in the room?

Nikkalmati
Surprised but not shocked.
> 
> 6. To what extent Snape's belief Lupin was involved in the Prank was rational?
> 
Nikkalmati

It was not correct, but it was not an irrational conclusion.  Snape might have reasoned that Sirius would not have set up Lupin like that without Lupin's agreement.

Nikkalmati






From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Jun  6 02:54:19 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 02:54:19 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <4DDA9649.1060005@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ishfgr+ffnl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190491

,big snip>
Shelley

> I am still convinced, even after several rereadings, that we don't know 
> everything about the Prank. 
Nikkalmati

That's for sure!

Nikkalmati

Shelley
<snip>
> he badgered Sirius until Sirius finally tells him and lets him suffer 
> the consequences. I think he told Snape "you don't want to go there", 
> but knew that Snape would anyway. I think the young Snape was arrogant 
> enough to think he could handle it. Only then Sirius thinks it through 
> and really doesn't want Snape to die for his arrogance, nor Lupin be 
> blamed for Snape forcing his way into where he didn't belong, and so he 
> intervenes to save stupid Snape from himself. Of course later, Snape 
> can't admit that he was being a nosey busy-body, and so he spins the 
> story to say Sirius tried to have him executed. I think it was 
> convienant for him to say that he didn't know there was a werewolf 
> there, but I am sure he had figured it out, or thought he had, before he 
> badgered Sirius into telling him how to see for himself of the truth.
> 
> >
Nikkalmati

Nothing in canon indicates Snape badgered Sirius and certainly not that Sirius had a change of heart.  He didn't go in to save Snape and he didn't feel bad about it years later.  

Nikkalmati




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 03:18:11 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 03:18:11 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isherb+t6st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ishgtj+fhfm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190492



.> Nikkalmati
> 
> I don't think any one places all the blame on Sirius, but he bears most of it.  :>)  He knew the truth and what was likely to happen.  Snape did not.  Being nosey or anitch does not deserve death.  Just try setting a lethal trap for a burgler and find out what the law says about that.  You would be in jail and all your possessions probably would end up in the hands of the burgler's living relatives.  

Alla:

I am not talking about what Snape deserved or did not deserve in Sirius' mind though, I am talking about the fact that Snape went there entirely voluntarily, this is what I am blaming Snape for and refuse to put this part on Sirius' shoulders, thats all. Or to use your words I disagree with "setting a trap" part of what you are describing. Sirius told him how to get there, add to it the argument based on book seven's Snape conversation with Lily that Snape possibly knew who was there and as far as I am concerned Sirius was not setting up anything, he was giving Snape an information which Snape was seeking. Snape was so eager to go there and while this is not a fact, again based on his conversation with Lily, I am quite convinced he knew. Who knows maybe he wanted to be a hero and take the werewolf down (speculation but based on how I see canon Snape). oops.

Nikkalmati:
> The second point always puzzled me.  What was Sirius thinking?  I guess he thought if Snape kept snooping around he would eventually find out what the Animagi were doing and he thought something like "a dead Snape tells no tales." We see he is portrayed as reckless and heedless even as an adult, so I guess I can go with that - but how could Lupin forgive him when the consequences for him were expulsion or possible execution?  Didn't James resent even a little that he had to risk his life because of that stupid trick?  How did Dumbledore get Snape to agree to keep mum?  That's another puzzle.

Alla:

Right, while as far as I am concerned Snape was the master of his own fate that night by deciding to go in the Shack, Remus was not, Remus had absolutely no choice in participating in Sirius' idiocy, that is why I feel that *to him* Sirius acted truly maliciously, to the truly innocent in that sense and yes, his forgiveness would always puzzled me big time. Snape as far as I am concerned dig his own grave that night. Walk away and nothing like that would have happened. I know I said many times but I was worried that she will tell us that Sirius told him something like "Lily would wait for you there", or something like that. I was so happy that we have learned nothing to that effect. Oh and Dumbledore making Snape to keep mum to me supports the idea that Snape's intentions and hands were very far from being clean in this matter and Dumbledore could have threatened Snape with exposing him for trying to kill fellow student (Remus).

JMO,

Alla




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Mon Jun  6 08:26:57 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 08:26:57 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isherb+t6st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isi30h+tb89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190493

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
 
> > Questions
> > 1. Lupin says the Marauders' map never lies, could this be a support for the
> > argument that the map does not have dark magic in it? Do you agree or disagree
> > with it?

Nikkalmati:
 > The map never lies in the sense that what it shows is always correct.   It is not sentient.  What it shows reflects reality.  Lupin of course knows this because he helped in its creation.  I don't think it involved Dark Magic.  Didn't the Mauraders hate Dark Magic?  It is a complex piece of charm work.  I am not sure how it could insult Snape in Ch. 14 unless it had been preprogramed years earlier in case Snape found it.

Geoff:
I do not believe that Dark Magic would  be needed for the task for which the Map 
was created. It is merely designed to show where anyone is. I agree that the magic 
which runs it is fairly complex but it's not intrinsically different from the sort of 
GPS technology which, for example, allows our bus operators to check precisely 
where each vehicle is.

I wonder if in fact it is a distant cousin to the very simple "Point Me" spell which 
Harry uses in GOF.

With regard to its insulting ability, I think you are right. The Map was designed 
when its creators were at Hogwarts and I suspect that James and possibly Sirius 
did most of the development work. Since Snape was a frequent target of these 
two Marauders at least, it doesn't surprise me that that might be an inbuilt 
function.




From juli17 at aol.com  Mon Jun  6 18:01:34 2011
From: juli17 at aol.com (jules)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 18:01:34 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <ishgtj+fhfm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isj4lu+5el2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190494

> Alla:
> 
> I am not talking about what Snape deserved or did not deserve in Sirius' mind though, I am talking about the fact that Snape went there entirely voluntarily, this is what I am blaming Snape for and refuse to put this part on Sirius' shoulders, thats all. Or to use your words I disagree with "setting a trap" part of what you are describing. Sirius told him how to get there, add to it the argument based on book seven's Snape conversation with Lily that Snape possibly knew who was there and as far as I am concerned Sirius was not setting up anything, he was giving Snape an information which Snape was seeking. Snape was so eager to go there and while this is not a fact, again based on his conversation with Lily, I am quite convinced he knew. Who knows maybe he wanted to be a hero and take the werewolf down (speculation but based on how I see canon Snape). oops.


Julie:
I think one person makes it pretty clear that Sirius did intend to set up Snape, and that person is James. James found out that Snape was headed for the Shrieking Shack and he could have only found out one of two ways. Either he followed Snape (unlikely as the "spying" seemed to be the other way 'round) or Sirius told him (alluded to in the books). Which means Sirius told Snape about the Shack (whether that included goading or not) *knowing* that Snape would go there.

I suspect Sirius intended to scare the bejeesus out of Snape ("Ha ha, James, wait till Snivellus gets a look at what's waiting for him! He won't be spying on us again soon once he pisses his pants all the way back to the dungeons!"), but it seems apparent that he didn't much care if worse happened. I can only assume James would have said something before he ran off to the Shack to save Snape (and Lupin), along the lines of "What have you done, Sirius? Mooney will KILL Snape!" and yet Sirius didn't go with James (or instead of James). I can only assume Sirius figured if Snape had died then he deserved what he got for being so nosy, as Sirius did imply again some 20 years later in POA. 

Snape was stupid to walk into a situation he knew so little about, and when what little information he had came from an enemy no less. Stupid, and arrogant and no doubt blinded by his desire to find evidence that would take down the Mauraders. But Sirius clearly was deliberately setting up his enemy to take a fall, and Lupin as well, though probably with lack of forethought of the ultimate consequences for both.

Also, despite Dumbledore's ability to keep Snape silent about Lupin's true nature (easy enough with a mere threat of expulsion--Lupin goes then Snape also goes), I can't see that Snape went to the Shrieking Shack to kill Lupin. Snape even as a teenager is smart and a voracious researcher, so if he went there to kill a werewolf he certainly would have taken something with him to do the job, and would have been prepared to protect himself at all costs. He would never have been caught so flat-footed, only surviving by the quick actions of his most erstwhile enemy, James Potter. Makes no sense at all, IMO. 

Julie






From santababy2009 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jun  6 19:10:15 2011
From: santababy2009 at sbcglobal.net (Maria Stephens)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 12:10:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isj4lu+5el2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <432066.19145.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190495


> Alla:
> <snip> Snape was so eager to go there and while this is not
> a fact, again based on his conversation with Lily, I am quite
> convinced he knew. Who knows maybe he wanted to be a hero and
> take the werewolf down (speculation but based on how I see
> canon Snape). oops.


Yeah! I got a email from the group! With that I am jumping in
to say, I think Snape just showed up at the Shrinking Shack
because he wanted to find out what was going on!

 Maria



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 21:42:29 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 21:42:29 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isj4lu+5el2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isjhk5+cbf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190496





.> Julie:
> I think one person makes it pretty clear that Sirius did intend to set up Snape, and that person is James. James found out that Snape was headed for the Shrieking Shack and he could have only found out one of two ways. Either he followed Snape (unlikely as the "spying" seemed to be the other way 'round) or Sirius told him (alluded to in the books). Which means Sirius told Snape about the Shack (whether that included goading or not) *knowing* that Snape would go there.

Alla:

No, I do not think it does mean that, actually. Of course Sirius told Snape how to get there (or alluded as you said)!  My point is that to tell somebody how to get some place dangerous and then such person entirely of its own free will went there does not in my view equals setting Snape up, setting a trap for him, etc, etc.  Sirius had no business telling Snape that, but Snape and only Snape chose his fate that night and whatever thoughts Sirius entertained about how it will end does not change that Snape went there on his own. Add to this that at the very least he suspected that Remus is changing there.


Julie:

> I suspect Sirius intended to scare the bejeesus out of Snape ("Ha ha, James, wait till Snivellus gets a look at what's waiting for him! He won't be spying on us again soon once he pisses his pants all the way back to the dungeons!"), but it seems apparent that he didn't much care if worse happened. I can only assume James would have said something before he ran off to the Shack to save Snape (and Lupin), along the lines of "What have you done, Sirius? Mooney will KILL Snape!" and yet Sirius didn't go with James (or instead of James). I can only assume Sirius figured if Snape had died then he deserved what he got for being so nosy, as Sirius did imply again some 20 years later in POA. 

Alla:

Sure, or Sirius wanted him dead indeed, goodness knows *I* was very happy when he was dead, so I would understand Sirius perfectly well. I mean from within the story of course and because of what he did to Harry and his family, not at this time, but hey maybe Sirius had a time turner and saw Snape blabbing prohecy to Voldemort :-) ( also see below), but to me Sirius' mindset was always completely irrelevant to the point I am making and which was quite often met with but "being nosy does not deserve death". And who claims otherwise? Of course being nosy does not deserve death, but maybe Snape should have been the one to think about it as well?



Julie:
> Snape was stupid to walk into a situation he knew so little about, and when what little information he had came from an enemy no less. Stupid, and arrogant and no doubt blinded by his desire to find evidence that would take down the Mauraders. But Sirius clearly was deliberately setting up his enemy to take a fall, and Lupin as well, though probably with lack of forethought of the ultimate consequences for both.


Alla:

See, this I never understood in all years we debated Prank and never will. As I said, while I am more likely to conclude that it was indeed teenage idiocy, I am more than willing to entertain the possibility that Sirius wanted Snape dead. I do not buy it, but it is entirely possible, unfortunately we will never know what was in his head. But saying that Snape was just stupid to walk into the situation and Sirius was deliberately setting him up for a fall to me assumes that Snape is just less responsible for his own choices than Sirius for his. Did Sirius drug him there? No, quite the contrary. Sirius answered the question Snape was dying to know. But there is to me absolutely no way that Sirius is in any way responsible for Snape's *choice* to go there. He divulged the information that he had no business to speak of, and I absolutely agree he was setting *Remus* for a fall, hopefully not deliberately, but who cares? Remus had no choice whatsoever, but to be the part of it, Snape had all the choice in the world.

Julie:
> Also, despite Dumbledore's ability to keep Snape silent about Lupin's true nature (easy enough with a mere threat of expulsion--Lupin goes then Snape also goes), I can't see that Snape went to the Shrieking Shack to kill Lupin. Snape even as a teenager is smart and a voracious researcher, so if he went there to kill a werewolf he certainly would have taken something with him to do the job, and would have been prepared to protect himself at all costs. He would never have been caught so flat-footed, only surviving by the quick actions of his most erstwhile enemy, James Potter. Makes no sense at all, IMO. 


Alla:

It makes perfect sense to me, but of course I see Snape in less charitable light than you do, I mean to show Lily indeed that he was right what was in there and to be a hero? He was dying to catch Sirius and to be a hero, no? Also he seemed to think of himself as master of DADA, so to me it will be perfectly in character for Snape to want to show what he can do and kill the "dark creature" with spells. And what would you think he should have taken with him besides his wand and his knowledge of the spells?

JMO,

Alla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jun  7 03:23:07 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 03:23:07 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isjhk5+cbf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isk5ir+79p5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190497


> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, I do not think it does mean that, actually. Of course Sirius told Snape how to get there (or alluded as you said)!  My point is that to tell somebody how to get some place dangerous and then such person entirely of its own free will went there does not in my view equals setting Snape up, setting a trap for him, etc, etc. 

Pippin:
The set up is that Sirius knew that once Snape passed the willow, there would be nothing except the length of the tunnel between Snape and the werewolf's jaws. Snape did not know that, and there is no way he could have found out without entering the tunnel. Even if Sirius knew that Snape suspected Lupin's secret, Sirius was still withholding a vital piece of information. It's equivalent to telling someone how to break into a zoo, but not telling them that the tiger will be loose on the grounds. 

I can just imagine what McGonagall would make of such a defense. She would indeed have told Snape that nothing excused his being out of bounds at night, but she would also have told Sirius that his behavior was both forbidden, in aiding another student to break rules, and unworthy of a Gryffindor, in that he took unfair advantage of Snape.

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  7 11:34:38 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 11:34:38 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isk5ir+79p5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isl2ce+oae6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190498



.> > Alla:
> > 
> > No, I do not think it does mean that, actually. Of course Sirius told Snape how to get there (or alluded as you said)!  My point is that to tell somebody how to get some place dangerous and then such person entirely of its own free will went there does not in my view equals setting Snape up, setting a trap for him, etc, etc. 
> 
> Pippin:
> The set up is that Sirius knew that once Snape passed the willow, there would be nothing except the length of the tunnel between Snape and the werewolf's jaws. Snape did not know that, and there is no way he could have found out without entering the tunnel. Even if Sirius knew that Snape suspected Lupin's secret, Sirius was still withholding a vital piece of information. It's equivalent to telling someone how to break into a zoo, but not telling them that the tiger will be loose on the grounds. I can just imagine what McGonagall would make of such a defense. She would indeed have told Snape that nothing excused his being out of bounds at night, but she would also have told Sirius that his behavior was both forbidden, in aiding another student to break rules, and unworthy of a Gryffindor, in that he took unfair advantage of Snape.
.


Alla:

Sirius should not have given Snape ANY information, but if Snape suspected that there was a werewolf there and still decided of *his own free will* to go there, even if he just decided to go there still of his own free will and I think he very much knew about werewolf, Sirius was taking *advantage* of him?! Sirius was taking advantage of Remus, who was just going to be there no matter what. If Snape went there after a valuable book, if Snape went there after Lily. ANYTHING to intice him to go there, anything and I will be right here with you nodding my head that he was taking "unfair advantage" of Snape but not as I see it now. I hope everybody understands that as Sirius' fan I would have had no problem admitting it if this is what I thought it was. It is not like I would like Sirius' character any less because of that, but no, not in my opinion.

He went, he saw Remus going there *with Madame Pomfrey", what did he think his presence was requested to "help poor Remus out of his misery"?  Somehow I doubt that personally. 

No, really one would think that Sirius came up with something, anything to make him go there, but nope he did not.

Sirius' behqavior WAS unworthy of gryffindor, Remus would have been executed most likely if he would have bitten Snape, but Snape went there *all on his own*.

JMO,

Alla




From juli17 at aol.com  Tue Jun  7 18:46:43 2011
From: juli17 at aol.com (jules)
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 18:46:43 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isjhk5+cbf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <islrmj+fb7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190499


> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> See, this I never understood in all years we debated Prank and never will. As I said, while I am more likely to conclude that it was indeed teenage idiocy, I am more than willing to entertain the possibility that Sirius wanted Snape dead. I do not buy it, but it is entirely possible, unfortunately we will never know what was in his head. But saying that Snape was just stupid to walk into the situation and Sirius was deliberately setting him up for a fall to me assumes that Snape is just less responsible for his own choices than Sirius for his. Did Sirius drug him there? No, quite the contrary. Sirius answered the question Snape was dying to know. But there is to me absolutely no way that Sirius is in any way responsible for Snape's *choice* to go there. He divulged the information that he had no business to speak of, and I absolutely agree he was setting *Remus* for a fall, hopefully not deliberately, but who cares? Remus had no choice whatsoever, but to be the part of it, Snape had all the choice in the world.


Julie:
I actually agree with you. Snape did have all the choice in the world and no one drugged him or forced him to go there. I do think Snape is responsible for his choices. I also think Sirius deliberately set him up. The difference I think between us is what we think each knew. The text to me implies that Snape may have suspected Remus was a werewolf but that he did not expect to be open to attack when he went to the Shrieking Shack. Sirius knew he would be open to direct attack (that Remus was not in any way bound or restrained) and with that knowledge allowed Snape to head straight into likely death. Sirius may not have thought that out, but it's clear James realized that likely result, given that he rushed to the Shack and saved Snape. 

Julie previously:

> > Also, despite Dumbledore's ability to keep Snape silent about Lupin's true nature (easy enough with a mere threat of expulsion--Lupin goes then Snape also goes), I can't see that Snape went to the Shrieking Shack to kill Lupin. Snape even as a teenager is smart and a voracious researcher, so if he went there to kill a werewolf he certainly would have taken something with him to do the job, and would have been prepared to protect himself at all costs. He would never have been caught so flat-footed, only surviving by the quick actions of his most erstwhile enemy, James Potter. Makes no sense at all, IMO. 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> It makes perfect sense to me, but of course I see Snape in less charitable light than you do, I mean to show Lily indeed that he was right what was in there and to be a hero? He was dying to catch Sirius and to be a hero, no? Also he seemed to think of himself as master of DADA, so to me it will be perfectly in character for Snape to want to show what he can do and kill the "dark creature" with spells. And what would you think he should have taken with him besides his wand and his knowledge of the spells?

Julie:
I think Snape wanted to catch the Mauraders at something, thus proving to Lily that he was right about them all along. And to get them expelled for whatever they were up to would have certainly been a nice bonus. 

As for what Snape should have taken with him, how about something that would actually kill a werewolf? I'm sure he took his wand but if he had knowledge of spells that would kill a werewolf (are there any, BTW?) then surely we would hear that Snape was trying to use them when James saved him. I can't see James keeping that fact a secret from Sirius (who would certainly have used it against Snape later when Harry brought up the incident).

I think our main differences are how we see the characters. As you say, you see Snape in a more negative light. I certainly don't see Snape as a nice boy during his years at Hogwarts. But then neither was Sirius, nor James, IMO. In fact, I would say Sirius and James were actually meaner than Snape from the ages of 11 to 15 or so. They really had little to recommend them, explaining Lily's antipathy toward them. 

Yes, everything changed later. But short of the fact that Snape was sorted into Slytherin (and was ugly and weird), there was no reason for James and Sirius to originally target Snape for mistreatment. I don't believe they had some sort of foresight that Snape was "evil" (and of course he actually wasn't in the end), and even if they had, it still gave them no right to treat him the way they did, IMO. It just made them even worse than he was, given they claimed to be on the side of "right" or "good." JKR hates bullies (ironically), I hate hypocrites.

And yes, Snape gave as good as he got. But again, I'm not arguing that Snape was a nice kid in school. I'm arguing that James and Sirius were even less nice kids, yet they did pretty much get away with it, because of the split between Gryffindor and Slytherin and the bias of the teachers as well as (sadly) the Headmaster. Which is as much a condemnation of the whole House system at Hogwarts, but that would be a whole other subject...

Julie 






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  7 23:21:48 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 23:21:48 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <islrmj+fb7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ismbqc+pd79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190500





.> Julie:
> I actually agree with you. Snape did have all the choice in the world and no one drugged him or forced him to go there. I do think Snape is responsible for his choices. I also think Sirius deliberately set him up. The difference I think between us is what we think each knew. The text to me implies that Snape may have suspected Remus was a werewolf but that he did not expect to be open to attack when he went to the Shrieking Shack. Sirius knew he would be open to direct attack (that Remus was not in any way bound or restrained) and with that knowledge allowed Snape to head straight into likely death. Sirius may not have thought that out, but it's clear James realized that likely result, given that he rushed to the Shack and saved Snape.  


Alla:

 If we both agree that Snape at least suspected that there is a werewolf down there, to me to say that he "did not expect to be open to direct attack" is diminishing Snape's responsibility for his own choices and his mental capacity, you know?

Werewolf is very very dangerous when he is in werewolf's form, right? As far as official speak goes, werewolves were not allowed at Hogwarts, right?

Why would we assume that Snape who suspected that there would be werewolf decide that he would not be opened to direct attack? Is it not more logical and reasonable to assume that when you will face "dark creature", such dark creature will attack you? 

It is the same way as I feel about describing Snape blabbing prophecy to Voldemort as "but Snape did not know what Voldemort will do with it". Um, I hate Snape, but I never thought that he is an imbecile. As I always say, I wonder if he thought that Voldemort will invite Potters for tea and make nice with them, you know?

And same thing here for me. Why would we assume that Snape thought something less reasonable and logical before he went there, especially since we know that he actually *thought* about what was down there, before he went.


And same thing with Sirius "allowed" Snape to go to his likely death. Sirius did not *allow* or *disallow* Snape to do anything in my opinion. Sirius gave Snape's information, which *if and only if* Snape will use it, may lead to his likely death and for that I hold Sirius responsible, absolutely, for that and for forcing Remus to participate in it, which to me was ten times more criminal and irresponsible, because Remus' choice was taken away from him.

 
.> Julie:
> I think Snape wanted to catch the Mauraders at something, thus proving to Lily that he was right about them all along. And to get them expelled for whatever they were up to would have certainly been a nice bonus. 
> 
> As for what Snape should have taken with him, how about something that would actually kill a werewolf? I'm sure he took his wand but if he had knowledge of spells that would kill a werewolf (are there any, BTW?) then surely we would hear that Snape was trying to use them when James saved him. I can't see James keeping that fact a secret from Sirius (who would certainly have used it against Snape later when Harry brought up the incident). <SNIP>
> 

Alla:

But we know that that there is a curse that kills, why would Snape want or need anything additional?  Why would we come up with mysterious additional weapon if we know that there is a curse that kills everything alive in Potterverse only to say that Snape did not take anything with him? Are werewolves immune to Avada? I actually do not remember, if so, then your point is taken of course.

JMO,

Alla




From juli17 at aol.com  Wed Jun  8 19:57:20 2011
From: juli17 at aol.com (jules)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:57:20 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <ismbqc+pd79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isok70+26nh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190501



> Alla:
> 
>  If we both agree that Snape at least suspected that there is a werewolf down there, to me to say that he "did not expect to be open to direct attack" is diminishing Snape's responsibility for his own choices and his mental capacity, you know?
> 
> Werewolf is very very dangerous when he is in werewolf's form, right? As far as official speak goes, werewolves were not allowed at Hogwarts, right?
> 
> Why would we assume that Snape who suspected that there would be werewolf decide that he would not be opened to direct attack? Is it not more logical and reasonable to assume that when you will face "dark creature", such dark creature will attack you? 

Julie:
We are hampered knowing so few facts, but Snape did know that Madame Pomprey went to the Shrieking Shack with Lupin. Also we're not aware that Snape knows the layout of the Shack. It's just as logical to assume that there is a way to spy without actually being in direct contact with Lupin--should he actually be a werewolf and not be hiding something else entirely--especially given that Madame Pomprey seems to come and go openly and without injury. 

It is all conjecture of course, and again Snape doesn't know for sure what he will find. Stupid? Yes. Not well thought out, because Snape mostly cared about catching the Marauders at something illegal and getting them expelled? Yes. 

Alla:
> It is the same way as I feel about describing Snape blabbing prophecy to Voldemort as "but Snape did not know what Voldemort will do with it". Um, I hate Snape, but I never thought that he is an imbecile. As I always say, I wonder if he thought that Voldemort will invite Potters for tea and make nice with them, you know?
> 
> And same thing here for me. Why would we assume that Snape thought something less reasonable and logical before he went there, especially since we know that he actually *thought* about what was down there, before he went.

Julie:
I don't see it as the same thing, as I am sure Snape did know what Voldemort would do with the Prophecy. He just didn't know that Voldemort would target Lily, about which he cared a great deal. It was only later that he apparently came to care about the welfare of anyone else besides Lily (saving those others he could). Again, because we have so few facts on the Shrieking Shack incident, there are several equally logical theories, IMO. 


Alla: 
> And same thing with Sirius "allowed" Snape to go to his likely death. Sirius did not *allow* or *disallow* Snape to do anything in my opinion. Sirius gave Snape's information, which *if and only if* Snape will use it, may lead to his likely death and for that I hold Sirius responsible, absolutely, for that and for forcing Remus to participate in it, which to me was ten times more criminal and irresponsible, because Remus' choice was taken away from him.

Julie:
Sirius knew the truth and the possible outcome but did not warn or stop Snape (or not tell Snape about the Shack in the first place). If he did not stop an event (good or bad) when he could, then he allowed it to go on. Yes, in a passive sense, but IMO that is still wrong. James certainly thought so. I can only hope that James went there not only to save Remus from potentially being a killer, but to save Snape from being killed also (which is what the text implies). Which makes James a much better person than Sirius in this scene, and perhaps in general, IMO. I do agree that Remus being unaware of any of it was the most wronged person, BTW, which certainly doesn't do my opinion of teenaged Sirius any favors. 


> 
> Alla:
> 
> But we know that that there is a curse that kills, why would Snape want or need anything additional?  Why would we come up with mysterious additional weapon if we know that there is a curse that kills everything alive in Potterverse only to say that Snape did not take anything with him? Are werewolves immune to Avada? I actually do not remember, if so, then your point is taken of course.

Julie:
I was under the impression from the text that it is very difficult to kill a werewolf (in werewolf form). Maybe because they are so fast, or for some other reason. In any case, Snape didn't seem prepared at all, and James seemed to think Snape was in mortal danger even though he knows Snape is well-versed in Dark Arts and no slouch at spells. Why would James think that if he knew Snape could easily defend himself by killing the werewolf? (Yes, he could have gone just thinking Remus was in danger of being killed, but that is not what the text says, as it is repeated by several different people that James went to the Shack to save Snape specifically, with no implication that Lupin's life was in any danger at that time.)

Julie





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun  9 01:11:17 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 01:11:17 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <ismbqc+pd79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isp6jl+mljl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190502

 
> Alla:
> 
>  If we both agree that Snape at least suspected that there is a werewolf down there, to me to say that he "did not expect to be open to direct attack" is diminishing Snape's responsibility for his own choices and his mental capacity, you know?
> 
> Werewolf is very very dangerous when he is in werewolf's form, right? As far as official speak goes, werewolves were not allowed at Hogwarts, right?
> 
> Why would we assume that Snape who suspected that there would be werewolf decide that he would not be opened to direct attack? Is it not more logical and reasonable to assume that when you will face "dark creature", such dark creature will attack you? 


Pippin:
Aside from what Sirius told him, all Snape knew is that he saw Lupin going towards the willow  with Madame Pomfrey and this was apparently how Lupin managed to disappear from the school every month. Why would Snape expect this passage to lead straight  into a trap? 

 Remember, there are  other hidden passages  known to Filch and others. Why shouldn't Snape assume the passage led to a secret exit in Hogsmeade  as other secret passages do? And then Lupin would go  to wherever it is that the Ministry normally confines werewolves during their transformations. 
 
It was of course foolish of Snape not to consider the possibility that the passage might be a dead end with Lupin trapped inside it, but he had no particular reason to think so. Did you, Alla, prior to learning the truth from canon, ever think that the secret passage under the willow led to a dead end, or that, unlike all the others, it had been made for Lupin's exclusive use? 


Alla:

> And same thing here for me. Why would we assume that Snape thought something less reasonable and logical before he went there, especially since we know that he actually *thought* about what was down there, before he went.

Pippin:
I  like the idea that Snape had a pretty good idea of what Lupin was and Sirius had doped that out. It makes for a much better joke: instead of  "Naiveidiot!Snape goes heedlessly into a werewolf's den", we have "Toosmartforhisowngood!Snape finds out his suspicions about Lupin are true in the worst possible way." Even I can see why Sirius would find that just too funny, so funny that he hardly thought about what was going to happen next.

Alla: 
> And same thing with Sirius "allowed" Snape to go to his likely death. Sirius did not *allow* or *disallow* Snape to do anything in my opinion. Sirius gave Snape's information, which *if and only if* Snape will use it, may lead to his likely death and for that I hold Sirius responsible, absolutely, for that and for forcing Remus to participate in it, which to me was ten times more criminal and irresponsible, because Remus' choice was taken away from him.

Pippin:
Agreed, Snape is responsible for his own choice to enter the tunnel. But it was not an *informed* choice, and I hold Sirius responsible for that. 

As matters turned out, Lupin had nothing to complain about. It must have felt like a glorious reprieve. It had seemed like the Marauder adventures must come to an end, and now, instead, Snape is silenced and caught in a Catch-22: any proof he finds that the Marauders are out after hours will also be proof that Snape was out to gather it, and he will be expelled right along with them. 

> Alla:
> 
> But we know that that there is a curse that kills, why would Snape want or need anything additional?  Why would we come up with mysterious additional weapon if we know that there is a curse that kills everything alive in Potterverse only to say that Snape did not take anything with him? Are werewolves immune to Avada? I actually do not remember, if so, then your point is taken of course.

Pippin:
We know that AK doesn't kill everything alive in the Potterverse. It won't kill a phoenix, for example. Fawkes only reverts to his juvenile form.  So it is possible that other magical creatures have evolved defenses also.

 FBAWTFT mostly avoids talk about killing magical creatures: the emphasis is on how they can be protected. However, it says that the most dangerous magical beast, the nundu, has never been subdued by less than a hundred wizards working together, that the basilisk is just as dangerous to dark wizards as it is to everyone else, and that the Lethifold can only be repelled by the Patronus Charm. All of that argues that it is only humans and ordinary animals that can't survive a killing curse. 

In fact, even humans can survive if the wizard attempting the curse hasn't got enough magical power to perform it. Creatures more magic resistant than humans might require more power to kill than any wizard would normally possess.

MacNair plans to use an axe against Buckbeak. Why not a killing curse, if that would be effective? It's only illegal against humans.

But suppose AK would kill a werewolf. That would mean a werewolf is no harder for a wizard to kill  than a true wolf, and that wouldn't make sense at all, especially with all the emphasis placed on teaching people how to distinguish one from the other. 

Certainly Borgin, who knows all about dark magic, doesn't think he has anything that would protect him from Greyback. We don't know if the homorphous charm Lockhart claimed to have used against the Wagga Wagga werewolf actually worked either. Probably not, IMO.  I think in that case, Lockhart stole the story of another pretender. 

Finally, Sirius was protective towards Lupin. I can't imagine he  would  have directed Snape into the tunnel if he thought  Lupin would be attacked.

It occurs to me that the Marauders were in an excellent position to find out which, if any, non-lethal defenses against werewolves might actually work. But they never found anything that worked better than the Animagus spell.

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 03:18:36 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 03:18:36 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isp6jl+mljl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ispe2c+qd08@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190503


Julie:
Sirius knew the truth and the possible outcome but did not warn or stop Snape
(or not tell Snape about the Shack in the first place). If he did not stop an
event (good or bad) when he could, then he allowed it to go on. Yes, in a
passive sense, but IMO that is still wrong.

Alla:

And to me this makes Snape less responsible for deciding to go there, I guess we have to agree to disagree, but as I said before this is something I will never understand.  Sirius is not responsible for anybody else's choices, in my opinion, only his own. This was a bad choice, but he did not make Snape go there. Gave him information that made it easier for Snape to go? Of course! But he still did not have to.

Julie:
James certainly thought so. I can only hope that James went there not only to save Remus from potentially being a killer, but to save Snape from being killed also (which is what the textimplies). Which makes James a much better person than Sirius in this scene, and perhaps in general, IMO. I do agree that Remus being unaware of any of it was the most wronged person, BTW, which certainly doesn't do my opinion of teenaged Sirius any favors.

Alla:
But I agree with you here. Once Snape was there, of course he had a great chance to be killed and I also hope that James went there to save him too. Once he was there! Nobody sent him there in the first place. All that I am saying is that choice to go there was Snape's and  Snape's alone and I do not buy that it was Sirius' responsibility for Snape's desire to go there, at all. Of course Sirius should not have done it, but the only way Snape could have become a victim of werewolf if he would have made a choice to use Sirius' information.
As to my opinion of teenage Sirius, well  that is why I asked the question in the first place, I do want to think that he was not thinking at all, when he came up with the Prank and Remus' forgiveness still boggles my mind, even though as a character I like Sirius' much more than Remus'.

Julie:
I was under the impression from the text that it is very difficult to kill a
werewolf (in werewolf form). Maybe because they are so fast, or for some other
reason. In any case, Snape didn't seem prepared at all, and James seemed to
think Snape was in mortal danger even though he knows Snape is well-versed in
Dark Arts and no slouch at spells. Why would James think that if he knew Snape
could easily defend himself by killing the werewolf? (Yes, he could have gone
just thinking Remus was in danger of being killed, but that is not what the text
says, as it is repeated by several different people that James went to the Shack
to save Snape specifically, with no implication that Lupin's life was in any
danger at that time.)

Alla:

I do not think James knew. He did not hear Snape's conversation with Lily, right? If Snape went there to kill or catch Remus, why would James knew that and of course there would be no implication that Remus' life was in danger, after all I decided Snape knew after reading his conversation with Lily and Snape loving Lily was supposed to be a big plot revelation, right


.> Pippin:
> Aside from what Sirius told him, all Snape knew is that he saw Lupin going towards the willow  with Madame Pomfrey and this was apparently how Lupin managed to disappear from the school every month. Why would Snape expect this passage to lead straight  into a trap?
>
>  Remember, there are  other hidden passages  known to Filch and others. Why shouldn't Snape assume the passage led to a secret exit in Hogsmeade  as other secret passages do? And then Lupin would go  to wherever it is that the Ministry normally confines werewolves during their transformations.
>
> It was of course foolish of Snape not to consider the possibility that the passage might be a dead end with Lupin trapped inside it, but he had no particular reason to think so. Did you, Alla, prior to learning the truth from canon, ever think that the secret passage under the willow led to a dead end, or that, unlike all the others, it had been made for Lupin's exclusive use?


Alla:

I think you may have misunderstood me. I did not expect Snape necessarily to know all the details of what is there, the layout of the house and/or the passages, etc. All that I am convinced of is that Snape knew that there was a werewolf there. And to me it is more reasonable to expect that no matter where and how werewolf will be situated, it is going to be dangerous, than it will be safe as a tamed dog and will lick Snape because it will be so happy to see him. To answer your question, I do not remember, I do not think I thought too much about it, till I read what it really was in PoA, but I do not remember.

If I know that I go to a location where say cobra is living nearby, (thinking of cobra which temporarily run away from Bronx zoo couple or so months ago lol), I do not expect that cobra will be constrained, tamed, and happy to see me, I expect that she has a pretty good chance to bite me and kill me. And if I ever decide to entertain such foolishness, you bet I will go very prepared to visit her.

>
>
> Alla:
>
> > And same thing here for me. Why would we assume that Snape thought something less reasonable and logical before he went there, especially since we know that he actually *thought* about what was down there, before he went.
>
> Pippin:
> I  like the idea that Snape had a pretty good idea of what Lupin was and Sirius had doped that out. It makes for a much better joke: instead of  "Naiveidiot!Snape goes heedlessly into a werewolf's den", we have "Toosmartforhisowngood!Snape finds out his suspicions about Lupin are true in the worst possible way." Even I can see why Sirius would find that just too funny, so funny that he hardly thought about what was going to happen next.

Alla:

Absolutely.

>
> Alla:
> > And same thing with Sirius "allowed" Snape to go to his likely death. Sirius did not *allow* or *disallow* Snape to do anything in my opinion. Sirius gave Snape's information, which *if and only if* Snape will use it, may lead to his likely death and for that I hold Sirius responsible, absolutely, for that and for forcing Remus to participate in it, which to me was ten times more criminal and irresponsible, because Remus' choice was taken away from him.
>
> Pippin:
> Agreed, Snape is responsible for his own choice to enter the tunnel. But it was not an *informed* choice, and I hold Sirius responsible for that.

Alla:

Sure, I can agree that it was not a fully informed choice, absolutely. I think that he have had enough information to be prepared for danger (werewolf), but he certainly did not have it from Sirius and Sirius did not inform him fully. As long as we agree that Sirius did not do anything to force Snape to go in there, I have nothing to argue with.

Alla:
> As matters turned out, Lupin had nothing to complain about. It must have felt like a glorious reprieve. It had seemed like the Marauder adventures must come to an end, and now, instead, Snape is silenced and caught in a Catch-22: any proof he finds that the Marauders are out after hours will also be proof that Snape was out to gather it, and he will be expelled right along with them.


Alla:

Well, as matters turned out Snape have had nothing to complain about either. He is alive. I meant that if matters turned out differently with Snape bitten and/or dead, Remus would have been likely dead too.


.> Pippin:
> We know that AK doesn't kill everything alive in the Potterverse. It won't kill a phoenix, for example. Fawkes only reverts to his juvenile form.  So it is possible that other magical creatures have evolved defenses also.
<SNIPS other examples?
>.> But suppose AK would kill a werewolf. That would mean a werewolf is no harder for a wizard to kill  than a true wolf, and that wouldn't make sense at all, especially with all the emphasis placed on teaching people how to distinguish one from the other.
>
> Certainly Borgin, who knows all about dark magic, doesn't think he has anything that would protect him from Greyback. We don't know if the homorphous charm Lockhart claimed to have used against the Wagga Wagga werewolf actually worked either. Probably not, IMO.  I think in that case, Lockhart stole the story of another pretender.
>
> Finally, Sirius was protective towards Lupin. I can't imagine he  would  have directed Snape into the tunnel if he thought  Lupin would be attacked.
>
> It occurs to me that the Marauders were in an excellent position to find out which, if any, non-lethal defenses against werewolves might actually work. But they never found anything that worked better than the Animagus spell.
.


Alla:

Thank you for the excellent examples, but it does not say anywhere that werewolves are actually immune to Avada, right? It is possible, sure, but it is not spelled out, right? I mean phoenixes are special, always had been special as being reborned in general mythology. Silver bullets will do it to werewolves in regular folklore, yes? I mean JKR played with folklore and did not make her creatures completely similar of course, but werewolves contrary to phoenixes are not immortal in folklore. As to Sirius' being protective of Lupin, I hoped so, but somehow Prank makes me scratch my head and wonder. Maybe he was not thinking because he was drunk for days before and decided it under influence? I am joking of course, but I mean it quite seriously, teenage boy or not, love Sirius as I do, and I love him dearly, if I were in Remus' place, there would have been no turning back. Friendships have been ruined over less than one friend putting another friend in the position when he could have possibly made somebody a werewolfie, or kill him. As I said above, this does truly boggles my mind, how fast Remus forgave him. There had been a long time I have reread the books besides chapter discussions actually, so didn't JKR actually said that werewolves do not kill with their bites? or have I dreamt it up?




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun  9 14:21:54 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:21:54 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <ispe2c+qd08@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isqku2+ofku@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190504

 
> Alla:

> If I know that I go to a location where say cobra is living nearby, (thinking of cobra which temporarily run away from Bronx zoo couple or so months ago lol), I do not expect that cobra will be constrained, tamed, and happy to see me, I expect that she has a pretty good chance to bite me and kill me. And if I ever decide to entertain such foolishness, you bet I will go very prepared to visit her.

Pippin:

If, OTOH, you saw the cobra  being moved from one place to another under guard, the way Snape saw Lupin with Mme Pomfrey, you wouldn't think it was loose. You'd expect wherever it was going it would still be in a cage, with a large "venomous" warning placard prominently displayed, because that's the way people usually keep cobras. 

If you saw a responsible person take a caged cobra into subway station you wouldn't assume they meant to turn the cobra loose down there. 

I assume you don't arm yourself with tranquilizer darts when you vist the zoo :) You expect the zoo to have things under control. If you were inclined to sneak behind the scenes, like a teenager on a dare, to the back offices or the animal hospital, you still wouldn't expect to come on a dangerous animal without warning. 

> 
> Alla:
> 
> Thank you for the excellent examples, but it does not say anywhere that werewolves are actually immune to Avada, right?

Pippin:
Not as far as I know.  What we do know is that all 5X monsters are "known wizard killers", impossible to tame, and dangerous even to the most highly skilled, trained and competent. So they have shown themselves able to overcome even the most skilled wizarding defenses in some way. 

IIRC, there is a report of a werewolf killing someone in HBP. Harry expresses  puzzlement, because, he says, werewolves just try to turn you into one of them. But Hermione says they can get carried away. In the confined space of the tunnel, with nowhere to run and Lupin  already mad enough to bite furniture, he would have bitten Snape and kept on biting. 

There is not even a hint of a suggestion that Snape would have been able to defend himself, much less that he meant to attack Lupin. Wouldn't he have said so, in the Shrieking Shack? "I should have killed you twenty years ago, Lupin,  but I'll let the dementors  deal with you now!"

Getting carried away is the point here, I think. JKR delights in having her  brilliant and logical characters  prove that, when acting on a false assumption or carried away by their emotions, they can behave as stupidly as anyone else. That's what happened to Sirius and Snape, IMO. Snape acted on a false assumption, just as Hermione did when she put cat hairs into her polyjuice. And Sirius got carried away. 

Snape might have tried to use Sectum Sempra rather than AK. But that would have been in desperate hope that it would stop the werewolf, because he wouldn't have been able to test it first. As I said, the Marauders could have tested it. And I think they did, and knew it wouldn't work. 

But mainly I don't think Snape went into the tunnel to kill Lupin, because IMO Snape is no more of a natural killer than Draco is. "Give me a reason. Give me a reason and I swear I will!"  Bella or Voldemort would never say something like that. They'd kill first, and come up with a reason afterwards.  

If young Snape did want to kill Lupin, and I'm sure he'd have had the greatest sympathy with anyone who did, he'd just have slipped a few drops of something into his pumpkin juice. ;)

Alla:
 if I were in Remus' place, there would have been no turning back. Friendships have been ruined over less than one friend putting another friend in the position when he could have possibly made somebody a werewolfie, or kill him. As I said above, this does truly boggles my mind, how fast Remus forgave him.

Pippin:
It takes courage to leave an abusive relationship, especially if the good times are the happiest you've ever known. 

Pippin





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 10 14:58:28 2011
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 14:58:28 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isjhk5+cbf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <istbek+32jb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190505



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .> Julie:
> > I think one person makes it pretty clear that Sirius did intend to set up Snape, and that person is James. James found out that Snape was headed for the Shrieking Shack and he could have only found out one of two ways. Either he followed Snape (unlikely as the "spying" seemed to be the other way 'round) or Sirius told him (alluded to in the books). Which means Sirius told Snape about the Shack (whether that included goading or not) *knowing* that Snape would go there.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, I do not think it does mean that, actually. Of course Sirius told Snape how to get there (or alluded as you said)!  My point is that to tell somebody how to get some place dangerous and then such person entirely of its own free will went there does not in my view equals setting Snape up, setting a trap for him, etc, etc.  Sirius had no business telling Snape that, but Snape and only Snape chose his fate that night and whatever thoughts Sirius entertained about how it will end does not change that Snape went there on his own. Add to this that at the very least he suspected that Remus is changing there.

Carol responds:

It's rather like pointing to a gun and telling a kid you hate that the gun has one bullet in it, knowing that the kid will take the implied dare. If Severus had died, you can bet that "He did it of his own free will" would not have saved Sirius from expulsion and possibly imprisonment. It would also have meant a death sentence for Lupin and firing for Dumbledore for knowingly keeping a werewolf on campus. It's one thing to be reckless with your own life; it's quite another to be reckless with the lives and fortunes of others. Sirius *knew* that Severus would take the implied dare, expecting to *see* a werewolf. He also *knew* that, unlike himself and his friends, Severus was not an Animagus and had no protection. Severus, on the other hand, knew or suspected that Sirius et al. could safely enter the presence of the werewolf and reasoned that he could, too. He probably assumed that the werewolf was safely confined.

True, he didn't think it out. He should have realized that Sirius wouldn't just hand him an open invitation to get him and his friends in trouble and that there must have been some danger in it for himself. But he was sixteen, and he didn't think it through.

Granted, Sirius was also sixteen. But he should have realized that what he was doing was dangerous, illegal, irresponsible, and morally wrong.

His enemy's naivete or gullibility or even desire to get him in trouble does not excuse him for tempting that enemy into a danger he would not have faced if he had not given that enemy the opportunity to walk into danger, especially given that he withheld key information.

Carol, who can't help seeing Sirius as a kind of Mephistopheles tempting his enemy into danger and folly 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Jun 10 18:37:38 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:37:38 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <istbek+32jb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isto9i+f8eo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190506


> Carol responds:
>  it's quite another to be reckless with the lives and fortunes of others. Sirius *knew* that Severus would take the implied dare, expecting to *see* a werewolf. He also *knew* that, unlike himself and his friends, Severus was not an Animagus and had no protection. Severus, on the other hand, knew or suspected that Sirius et al. could safely enter the presence of the werewolf and reasoned that he could, too. He probably assumed that the werewolf was safely confined.
> 
> True, he didn't think it out. He should have realized that Sirius wouldn't just hand him an open invitation to get him and his friends in trouble and that there must have been some danger in it for himself. But he was sixteen, and he didn't think it through.

Pippin:
Of course he knew there was danger. He was going to be out of bed, in  a forbidden area, after hours, so that's three rules broken right there. Sirius could have been setting him up to get  expelled, or trapped, embarrassingly, on the wrong side of the Hogwarts Gates. The way I see it, Snape  expected there to be some trick, he thought he could guess what it was, and he was wrong. 

Sirius may have said something like, "You want to know where Lupin's going? Why don't you follow him and find out? Oh, that's right, you don't know how to get past the willow. 

Well, Snivellus, I don't mind telling you that. Getting in is the easy part. But you won't find it as easy to get out, I promise you." 

What boy could resist a dare like that?

I don't think  Snape would expect to see a werewolf, just a way that a werewolf could leave  the campus without being seen. 

Snape would know, having carefully read his FBAWTFT, that magical creatures considered too dangerous for the average wizard to cope with are confined in special habitats guarded by Muggle-repelling charms. In the case of creatures that prey on humans and therefore have developed the ability to cancel out charms and spells, the habitats are made unplottable   and carefully guarded by experts from the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures. 

There's no way Snape would expect to find himself in such  a place just by prodding the Whomping Willow with a stick. That Dumbledore might have  bent the rules, or that Hogwarts itself was an unplottable area concealed from Muggles and staffed by, among others, experts on COMC, did not perhaps occur to him. 


Pippin






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 11 00:07:46 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 00:07:46 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <istbek+32jb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isubki+t6rn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190507



.> Carol responds:
> 
> It's rather like pointing to a gun and telling a kid you hate that the gun has one bullet in it, knowing that the kid will take the implied dare. <SNIP since this is the main point I  disagree with>


Alla:

Not in my opinion it is not, because saying that Sirius *knew* that kid will take the implied dare, again takes Snape's choice away from him. How  exactly did Sirius know that? He could have suspected that Snape will go, sure, but still Snape and only Snape decided to go and it is as far as I know canon fact. And I do not remember the canon which says that Sirius *dared* him to do anything either. Sirius gave him the information, Snape used it. Sirius did not tell him the whole information, for sure. Once Snape decided to use it, absolutely he could have been killed easily (not a great loss if you ask me but I digress), and as I said many times Remus, whom I see as the only truly innocent in this thing could have been executed.

Everything else you said pretty much what I said already that I do not disagree with, so I snipped.

But it will always boggle my mind when Snape is described as somebody who did not have a choice in the matter and thus an innocent one. Duped, for sure, big time. Could have been killed? Absolutely. But as far as I am concerned, nobody dared him or  *knew* that he would have taken the dare. 

JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 11 00:13:01 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 00:13:01 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isto9i+f8eo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isubud+tcp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190508



.> Pippin:
> Of course he knew there was danger. He was going to be out of bed, in  a forbidden area, after hours, so that's three rules broken right there. Sirius could have been setting him up to get  expelled, or trapped, embarrassingly, on the wrong side of the Hogwarts Gates. The way I see it, Snape  expected there to be some trick, he thought he could guess what it was, and he was wrong. 
> 
> Sirius may have said something like, "You want to know where Lupin's going? Why don't you follow him and find out? Oh, that's right, you don't know how to get past the willow. 
> 
> Well, Snivellus, I don't mind telling you that. Getting in is the easy part. But you won't find it as easy to get out, I promise you." 
> 
> What boy could resist a dare like that?
> 
> I don't think  Snape would expect to see a werewolf, just a way that a werewolf could leave  the campus without being seen. <SNIP>
> 


Alla:

See I was all set to stop because I thought your last post had me nothing to argue with, I mean, I am thinking that Snape going to kill Lupin was reasonable speculation, but sure I know it is not a fact, but I think Snape absolutely expected to see a werewolf, and maybe unrestrained one, maybe he wanted to be a hero and restrain him or something, but I  am convinced he knew that there will not be just some trick there, but a werewolf one.







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 11 00:36:04 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 00:36:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isubud+tcp3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isud9k+emia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190509

Eh sorry for doing multiple posting guys, I will be good tomorrow I promise, but may I just say how very amusing I find the real world legal comparisons with what punishment Sirius would have received? Would he been charged with attempted murder or complicity to commit murder? I would have said it is pretty much a given, the charge that is.

Now, conviction? You want to bet that good attorney would have at least been able to mitigate the charges? And before you ask me, yes I do know , not just saying it because I watch "Law and order".

Having said it, it is completely irrelevant to the point I am making. Yes, Snape could have been killed, as I said several times and never disputed that. All I am disputing is taking away Snape's choice in what have happened. Had he never went there, nothing would have happened.

Sirius made the task easier for him, which he had no business to do, but thats all he did, and again his mindset is also irrelevant for what I am saying. He could have just beeing a teenager idiot, he could have wanted to kill Snape, makes no difference in my opinion.

He still did not *make* Snape to go there.

JMO,

Alla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Jun 11 14:55:35 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 14:55:35 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isubud+tcp3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <isvvl7+bvfk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190510


> Alla:
> 
> See I was all set to stop because I thought your last post had me nothing to argue with, I mean, I am thinking that Snape going to kill Lupin was reasonable speculation, but sure I know it is not a fact, but I think Snape absolutely expected to see a werewolf, and maybe unrestrained one, maybe he wanted to be a hero and restrain him or something, but I  am convinced he knew that there will not be just some trick there, but a werewolf one.
>

Pippin:
Lily knew all of Snape's theories, and it didn't even occur to her that it could have been Lupin under the willow. That's how unlikely it is. A werewolf is not going to be behind a door that opens with a simple trick -- it would be like breaking  into Fort Knox with a hairpin. 

I wonder if she ever found out?

 In any case, saying that Sirius set Snape up in no way absolves Snape of responsibility for his rule-breaking, any more than it clears someone of a murder charge to say that someone else helped him do it. 

They don't seem to have attorneys at criminal trials in the wizarding world. I'm not sure they have lawyers at all...maybe it's considered too mundane an occupation for a wizard.  

The procedures at Harry's hearing are more Alice in Wonderland than Law & Order, IMO. Albus declares himself a witness for the defense, although he didn't witness anything, and then calls in Mrs. Figg as a witness summoned by the accused although Harry didn't summon her. 

But considering the way juries in the WW decide things, it would be a question of whether the defense could make the image of charming, loyal, promising Sirius prevail over  the image of the swaggering, scheming, unrepentant bully.  That might be a tall order.  The arrogant ways that so impressed Sirius's classmates wouldn't go over well in court. 

But we don't have to decide which one was the real Sirius...they both were. That is JKR's point.

Pippin








From winterfell7 at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 11 21:02:34 2011
From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 21:02:34 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isubki+t6rn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it0l5a+c3cs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190511


> .> Carol responds:
> > 
> > It's rather like pointing to a gun and telling a kid you hate that the gun has one bullet in it, knowing that the kid will take the implied dare. <SNIP since this is the main point I  disagree with>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Not in my opinion it is not, because saying that Sirius *knew* that kid will take the implied dare, again takes Snape's choice away from him. How  exactly did Sirius know that? He could have suspected that Snape will go, sure, but still Snape and only Snape decided to go and it is as far as I know canon fact. And I do not remember the canon which says that Sirius *dared* him to do anything either. Sirius gave him the information, Snape used it. Sirius did not tell him the whole information, for sure. Once Snape decided to use it, absolutely he could have been killed easily (not a great loss if you ask me but I digress), and as I said many times Remus, whom I see as the only truly innocent in this thing could have been executed.
>Snip>

> But it will always boggle my mind when Snape is described as somebody who did not have a choice in the matter and thus an innocent one. Duped, for sure, big time. Could have been killed? Absolutely. But as far as I am concerned, nobody dared him or  *knew* that he would have taken the dare. 
> 
> JMO,
> Alla

Steve E replies:  I agree completely w/ Alla here. Didn't Dumbledore say to Harry in essence that we are defined by the choices we make?  There is a well known triangle of human interaction known in therapeutic evaluation that consists of a person acting either as a Rescuer, a Victom, and/or a Persecutor. Those who defend Snape and make him out to be a victom in this situation at least, and consequently make Sirius out to be a Persecutor, do so subjectively because of personal reader bias for and against certain characters.  When you look at this scenario with a bit more objectivety, we can clearly see that Snape did have a choice in the matter and wasn't forced in any magical or non magical ways to act as he did.  Sirius's motives weren't completely innocent either, but he doesn't qualify for being a Persecutor either.  He didn't intentionally commit an act of malice knowing full well the outcome of that act. Sirius may have hoped Snape did what he did, but unless he paid more attention in Divination's class than his future Godson did, he didn't know for sure that Snape would act as he did.

Snape has acted as a Rescuer in many instances, and as a persecutor in some instances as well, but in this case he was not a completely innocent lamb being led to the slaughter so to speak by Sirius. Snape was not a victom here, as he clearly had a choice in the matter.

Both Sirius and Snape were adolescents here, not just Snape. So if you try to excuse Snape because of his age, the same excuse must also equally apply to Sirius, as they both share the same criteria.

  





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 11 23:56:49 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:56:49 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isvvl7+bvfk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it0vc1+t0io@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190512



.> Pippin:
<SNIP>
.>  In any case, saying that Sirius set Snape up in no way absolves Snape of responsibility for his rule-breaking, any more than it clears someone of a murder charge to say that someone else helped him do it. 

Alla:

But it does to me. I mean not the way you are usually describing it, I may agree or disagree with some particulars with you, but not on this point, but Carol's post clearly summarized of POV which always baffled me and always will. 

I think "Sirius knew that Snape will take the dare" is the gist of the argument with which I am most vehemently disagreeing. Sirius took some legilimency classes and did it to Snape? Because unless there is a proof of that there is absolutely no way he *knew*. He may have had a pretty good idea, he may have suspected, but choice to go there was Snape and only Snape's eventually. Nobody put a gun to his head and said "you must go there".  As long as we agree that nobody took away Snape's choice whether to go there, I have absolutely, positively no desire to absolve Sirius of anything else you want to throw him on, especially since again we do not know what was in his head that night and sadly never will. You want to say that he wanted to kill Snape that night, or at least hoped so because he hoped Snape will go there, and I will say, sure it is possible. I was hoping to hear for sure that he did not, but canon is closed, so of course it is possible. But he did not know, he did not know that Snape will go there.
 
Pippin: 
> They don't seem to have attorneys at criminal trials in the wizarding world. I'm not sure they have lawyers at all...maybe it's considered too mundane an occupation for a wizard.  

Alla:

Of course, but the only reason I brought it up is because real world legal comparisons were already brought up, I surely do not think there is a very close correlation. So I was talking about what would have happened with some close enough situation in real world, not in WW.

Pippin: 
> The procedures at Harry's hearing are more Alice in Wonderland than Law & Order, IMO. Albus declares himself a witness for the defense, although he didn't witness anything, and then calls in Mrs. Figg as a witness summoned by the accused although Harry didn't summon her. 


Alla:

Agreed, but again I was talking about real world, not WW.

Pippin: 
> But considering the way juries in the WW decide things, it would be a question of whether the defense could make the image of charming, loyal, promising Sirius prevail over  the image of the swaggering, scheming, unrepentant bully.  That might be a tall order.  The arrogant ways that so impressed Sirius's classmates wouldn't go over well in court. 


Alla:

Yes, but if we would talk about something similar in real world, what I meant is how very very easy would be to bring reasonable doubt in. Incredibly easy. 

Pippin: 
> But we don't have to decide which one was the real Sirius...they both were. That is JKR's point.
.

Alla:

I am not trying to and I agree with you.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Jun 12 00:43:01 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 00:43:01 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isubki+t6rn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it122l+v7pq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190514


> Alla:
> 
> Not in my opinion it is not, because saying that Sirius *knew* that kid will take the implied dare, again takes Snape's choice away from him. How exactly did Sirius know that? He could have suspected that Snape will go, sure, but still Snape and only Snape decided to go and it is as far as I know canon fact. 

Potioncat:
And it is canon fact that Sirius expected Severus to take the bait. Could he be 100% certain?-no, He couldn't know 100% that Severus would go---maybe Severus would reconsider, or chicken out or be detained. But if Severus had not gone, Sirius would have been disappointed. His whole reason for telling Severus was so that Severus would go down the tunnel.

It's the same situation that happened in the first year. Draco tricked Harry into a duel. Harry was going to meet Draco in the dead of night out of a sense of honor (11-year-old boy honor). But it wasn't going to be Draco he met, but Filch. And it's much more like the year Harry was following Draco, trying to prove what a danger Draco was. That's the same thing Severus was doing.

My apologies to those who get this via email. After I hit send, I saw I hadn't finished snipping the post.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 12 00:55:31 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 00:55:31 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it122l+v7pq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it12q3+g777@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190515


.> Potioncat:
> And it is canon fact that Sirius expected Severus to take the bait. Could he be 100% certain?-no, He couldn't know 100% that Severus would go---maybe Severus would reconsider, or chicken out or be detained. But if Severus had not gone, Sirius would have been disappointed. His whole reason for telling Severus was so that Severus would go down the tunnel.

Alla:

Expected, wanted, REALLY hoped, is not the same as *knew* that he would go though. Again, to me what Sirius wanted out of is completely irrelevant. I mean it is quite obvious that nothing GOOD would have come out of it, isn't it? Still Snape went 

Potioncat: 
> It's the same situation that happened in the first year. Draco tricked Harry into a duel. Harry was going to meet Draco in the dead of night out of a sense of honor (11-year-old boy honor). But it wasn't going to be Draco he met, but Filch. And it's much more like the year Harry was following Draco, trying to prove what a danger Draco was. That's the same thing Severus was doing.


Alla:

Agreed, very similar situation. Totally agreed. And still nobody forced Harry to go, absolutely nobody. The small difference is of course that Harry did not have time and time and time to obsess over what is going on in that place, BUT let me stress, I totally think that Harry did not have to go there. Of course eleven year old boys  and rational thinking is even more rare combination than fifteen year olds, but absolutely to me it is very comparable. Harry went, Harry did not have to go. He paid the price and quite deservingly so. And you know how much I love Harry's character and hate Draco's. Facts are facts.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 12 00:57:06 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 00:57:06 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it12q3+g777@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it12t2+atti@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190516

GRRRR. Did not finish the sentence. Sorry.

.> .> Potioncat:
> > And it is canon fact that Sirius expected Severus to take the bait. Could he be 100% certain?-no, He couldn't know 100% that Severus would go---maybe Severus would reconsider, or chicken out or be detained. But if Severus had not gone, Sirius would have been disappointed. His whole reason for telling Severus was so that Severus would go down the tunnel.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Expected, wanted, REALLY hoped, is not the same as *knew* that he would go though. Again, to me what Sirius wanted out of is completely irrelevant. I mean it is quite obvious that nothing GOOD would have come out of it, isn't it? Still Snape went because he wanted to.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Jun 12 15:18:04 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 15:18:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it12t2+atti@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it2lbc+k8hf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190517



> > Alla:
> > 
> > Expected, wanted, REALLY hoped, is not the same as *knew* that he would go though. Again, to me what Sirius wanted out of is completely irrelevant. I mean it is quite obvious that nothing GOOD would have come out of it, isn't it? Still Snape went because he wanted to.
>

Pippin:
In colloquial English, it is the same. We can say that Draco knew Harry would show up for the duel, not because Draco is prescient or because Harry was coerced, but because Draco knows Harry has a reputation to uphold and backing out of a duel would be unthinkable. 

In the same way, Sirius doesn't know in any prescient sense that Snape will take the bait and doesn't do anything that would compel Snape to take it. But he knows that Snape will take it, because he knows Snape.

The fisherman does not know, in the sense of believing with absolute certainty, that a fish will bite on his hook. But he knows, in the sense of grasping something with a thorough understanding, that a fish will bite on his hook. 

Steve E:
Steve E replies: I agree completely w/ Alla here. Didn't Dumbledore say to
Harry in essence that we are defined by the choices we make? There is a well
known triangle of human interaction known in therapeutic evaluation that
consists of a person acting either as a Rescuer, a Victom, and/or a Persecutor.
Those who defend Snape and make him out to be a victom in this situation at
least, and consequently make Sirius out to be a Persecutor, do so subjectively
because of personal reader bias for and against certain characters. When you
look at this scenario with a bit more objectivety, we can clearly see that Snape
did have a choice in the matter and wasn't forced in any magical or non magical
ways to act as he did. Sirius's motives weren't completely innocent either, but
he doesn't qualify for being a Persecutor either. He didn't intentionally
commit an act of malice knowing full well the outcome of that act. 


Pippin:
I don't claim to be objective about the characters. But Sirius's malice towards Snape is unquestionable. And the outcome, while not inevitable, was certainly predictable by any reasonable person.  As Lupin says, "Of course Snape tried it."

It is  well-known and extensively studied that certain hazardous attitudes contribute to poor decision-making. They are: impulsivity, macho (taking risks in order to prove yourself), invulnerability, anti-authority and resignation. People with these attitudes will put themselves in hazardous situations even though they are well-informed about the risks. 

Of those five, it is canon that Snape was impulsive, desperate to make an impression, and had enough disregard for rules to learn more curses than a respectable Slytherin ought to know.

Of course Snape could have said to himself, "wait a minute, I need to take some time and think this through. I don't need to do something dangerous to prove myself. The rules are made for my protection." But Sirius knew him  well enough to know that he wouldn't. 


Snape wouldn't have had a lot of time to think it over -- presumably he saw Lupin and Pomfrey going to the willow,  immediately confronted Sirius with what he'd seen, and knew he'd have to act on Sirius's information that night, before Sirius could warn Lupin or Madame Pomfrey that the willow  secret was blown. 

Of course young Sirius shared some of the same qualities that got Snape into trouble. He also was impulsive and disregarding of rules, and took risks to prove himself. He also had, more than Snape, a teenager's sense of invulnerability. 

I agree that both Sirius and Snape lacked an adult's capacity to assess the consequences of their actions.  That's why Dumbledore gave them both another chance. But that doesn't mean that Sirius's actions were right in any moral sense, or that he didn't act out of a desire to harm Snape. 

Pippin




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jun 12 16:55:12 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 12 Jun 2011 16:55:12 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/12/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1307897712.16.32292.m2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190518

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 12, 2011
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2011 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20110612/27933008/attachment.html>

From sallydye at wabash.net  Sun Jun 12 13:23:48 2011
From: sallydye at wabash.net (sally_dye_1)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 13:23:48 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
Message-ID: <it2el4+vg8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190519

Hi - I realize I'm very late to the party, but I just finished the Harry Potter series (and loved it).  But I have a question about Deathly Hallows, which may have been addressed before I got here.  It's about the sword of Gryffindor.  In reading the last book, I thought that Griphook the goblin took the sword when they were in Gringott's.  But then at the end, Neville takes it from the sorting hat to kill Nagini.  Are there two different swords?  Or did I miss something important earlier in the book?  If anyone can help me out here, I'd appreciate it.

Sally




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Sun Jun 12 16:12:37 2011
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:12:37 -0400
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
References: <it0vc1+t0io@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <454FB184BD4E4A29B036D57A51A5713E@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 190520

> > Pippin:
> <SNIP>
> >  In any case, saying that Sirius set Snape up in no way absolves Snape 
> of responsibility for his rule-breaking, any more than it clears someone 
> of a murder charge to say that someone else helped him do it.
>
> Alla:
> <snip>
> I think "Sirius knew that Snape will take the dare" is the gist of the 
> argument with which I am most vehemently disagreeing. Sirius took some 
> legilimency classes and did it to Snape? Because unless there is a proof 
> of that there is absolutely no way he *knew*. He may have had a pretty 
> good idea, he may have suspected, but choice to go there was Snape and 
> only Snape's eventually. Nobody put a gun to his head and said "you must 
> go there".  <snip>

Dorothy-
  First of all, I am introducing myself here, this is my first post.  Both 
of you are right in some sense here.  Neither of them could have forseen, 
nor could they even think that far ahead in the heat of the impulses of the 
teenage brain, the consequences.  They each, both Sirius and Snape, 
followed their character's impulses, not their common sense.  I think Snape 
wanted to find something out to get the others in trouble, and Sirius wanted 
to scare Snape.
  From the latest scientific studies, the teenage brain hasn't yet developed 
enough to look ahead at consequences all the time.  Even Harry, in the heat 
of emotion, forgets at times to follow a thought to its expected 
conclusion.  As we all at sometimes were guilty of ourselves.  JKR, in my 
opinion, has nailed the characters and their emotional responses to their 
situations perfectly.  All their talents, faults, learnings, and ultimate 
heroism were depicted perfectly, and made me feel like these were real 
people.
  Think peace,
    Dorothy 




From valy1x2 at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 12 19:44:31 2011
From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy Brabon)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 21:44:31 +0200
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it2el4+vg8p@eGroups.com>
References: <it2el4+vg8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS169D63D652D848B5096FEEB6660@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 190521

> Sally:
> Hi - I realize I'm very late to the party, but I just finished 
the Harry Potter series (and loved it). But I have a question about 
Deathly Hallows, which may have been addressed before I got here. 
> It's about the sword of Gryffindor. In reading the last book, I 
thought that Griphook the goblin took the sword when they were in 
Gringott's. But then at the end, Neville takes it from the sorting 
hat to kill Nagini. Are there two different swords? Or did I miss 
something important earlier in the book? If anyone can help me out 
> here, I'd appreciate it.


Valy:
 If I remember well, "only a true Griffyndor" can take the sword 
out of the Sorting Hat, Harry did it too in CoS. I guess the 
Sorting Hat is a sort of "portkey"; the sword is laying around 
somewhere, but only a true Griffyndor can find it from the Sorting 
hat. I have to re-read DEs, lol.
 It's true it's a bit confusing. Maybe the sword is hidden in 
Gringotts, and since Goblins have different magic than Wizards... 
But we have to assume Neville is a true Giffyndor too. :D

Argh... I'll leave it to others... lol

Valy




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 12 20:28:10 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 20:28:10 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it2lbc+k8hf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it37gq+c6nc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190522



.> > > Alla:
> > > 
> > > Expected, wanted, REALLY hoped, is not the same as *knew* that he would go though. Again, to me what Sirius wanted out of is completely irrelevant. I mean it is quite obvious that nothing GOOD would have come out of it, isn't it? Still Snape went because he wanted to.
> >
> 
> Pippin:
> In colloquial English, it is the same. We can say that Draco knew Harry would show up for the duel, not because Draco is prescient or because Harry was coerced, but because Draco knows Harry has a reputation to uphold and backing out of a duel would be unthinkable. 
> 
> In the same way, Sirius doesn't know in any prescient sense that Snape will take the bait and doesn't do anything that would compel Snape to take it. But he knows that Snape will take it, because he knows Snape.
> 
> The fisherman does not know, in the sense of believing with absolute certainty, that a fish will bite on his hook. But he knows, in the sense of grasping something with a thorough understanding, that a fish will bite on his hook. 

Alla:

See, no,I do not agree. I guess you are closer to Carol's point of view than I thought.

I mean, Sirius knows because he knows Snape means to me that he can predict Snape's behavior to a smallest detail. That assumes to me that he can predict anything that Snape will do, always (or often, does not really matter. And to me this takes away Snape's choice. Now Sirius is not only the greatest legilimenc but also the greates psychologist? What would have stopped Snape from deciding oh heck, it is not worth it, I am afraid to go and see werewolf, too scary, too dangerous? Unlikely? Sure. Possible? Of course to me it is, after all before he went to Dumbledore to beg for Lily, first whom he pleaded with was Voldemort, so Snape decided that it is less scary way to try first IMO.

Oh here is my simplistic real life example, which is only  partial analogy to this of course. I know that my friend vastly prefers dark chocolate to milk one, like she would almost alwats choose dark one. Does she always choose milk one? Of course not! There are days she would still choose milk one and for me to assume that I can always predict which one I should buy for her is incredibly arrogant and just plain not true.



.> Pippin:
> I don't claim to be objective about the characters. But Sirius's malice towards Snape is unquestionable. And the outcome, while not inevitable, was certainly predictable by any reasonable person.  As Lupin says, "Of course Snape tried it."

Alla:

Outcome was predictable since the moment Snape decided to go there, not before in my opinion. Lupin says it after the fac.


Pippin:

> Snape wouldn't have had a lot of time to think it over -- presumably he saw Lupin and Pomfrey going to the willow,  immediately confronted Sirius with what he'd seen, and knew he'd have to act on Sirius's information that night, before Sirius could warn Lupin or Madame Pomfrey that the willow  secret was blown. <SNIP>


Alla:

He had plenty of time to obsess over Shrieking shack and Lupin there IMO, enough that he shared his thoughts with Lily. If he acted soon enough after he got information, to me that only meant that Sirius' giving him the information was the very last drop which finally made him decide to go that day, thats all IMO.


Pippin:
> I agree that both Sirius and Snape lacked an adult's capacity to assess the consequences of their actions.  That's why Dumbledore gave them both another chance. But that doesn't mean that Sirius's actions were right in any moral sense, or that he didn't act out of a desire to harm Snape. 


Alla:

Um, no it may mean that he only wanted to scare Snape, just as there is no way for me to prove that he did not want to kill Snape, there is no way to prove that he just wanted to scare him big time. But I certainly agree that his actions were not right in moral sense. Sharing information with Snape about how to get to your friend who is turning very dangerous at fool moon and kinda insane and may bit people was not moral at all IMO.

JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 12 20:32:16 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 20:32:16 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it122l+v7pq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it37og+cpdu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190523


> Potioncat:
<SNIP>
.> It's the same situation that happened in the first year. Draco tricked Harry into a duel. Harry was going to meet Draco in the dead of night out of a sense of honor (11-year-old boy honor). But it wasn't going to be Draco he met, but Filch. And it's much more like the year Harry was following Draco, trying to prove what a danger Draco was. That's the same thing Severus was doing.


Alla:

So I thought about it and decided that I have a better analogy, even though I again totally agree that Harry did not have to go meet Draco and the choice to go there was his and only his alone. The difference for me is that before Draco challenged him, Harry had no desire to go there, while Snape was trying to figure out Shrieking Shack way before Sirius told him.

So I suggest Harry's Hogsmead excursion and Twins' help as better analogy for Harry's behavior being similar to Snape's, not for Twins being similar to Sirius.

Harry REALLY wanted to go, REALLY, no matter how dangerous and selfish it was, so he leaped at first possible help and went no matter what danger may have happened to him.

JMO,

Alla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Jun 12 22:52:51 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 22:52:51 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it2el4+vg8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it3g03+mqqc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190524



 Sally wrote:
snip
  Are there two different swords? Or did I miss something important earlier in the book?  If anyone can help me out here, I'd appreciate it.
> 

Potioncat:
Welcome to our group! We love to discuss questions, even if we have discussed them before--just see any Sirius/Severus thread.

Yes, there were two swords. I have to admit it, but I've forgotten which was which. The real sword was placed in the lake by Snape, and taken out by Ron (or was it Harry?) And there was a fake sword in Bellatrix's vault. But right now I've forgotten what happened to the real sword between the lake and the Sorting Hat.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 01:31:18 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 01:31:18 -0000
Subject: ADMIN GOF Chapter Discussions
Message-ID: <it3p96+mh6l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190525

Hey guys, if you want chapter discussions to continue, we really need volunteers for GoF, really. Please, pretty please?

Thanks,

Alika Elf.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 01:37:17 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 01:37:17 -0000
Subject: ADMIN GOF Chapter Discussions
In-Reply-To: <it3p96+mh6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it3pkd+jgkv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190526



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys, if you want chapter discussions to continue, we really need volunteers for GoF, really. Please, pretty please?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alika Elf.
>


Sorry, please respond to owner's email address.

Thanks,

Alika elf.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun 13 03:06:23 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 03:06:23 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it3g03+mqqc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it3urf+rn0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190527



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  Sally wrote:
> snip
>   Are there two different swords? Or did I miss something important earlier in the book?  If anyone can help me out here, I'd appreciate it.
> > 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Welcome to our group! We love to discuss questions, even if we have discussed them before--just see any Sirius/Severus thread.
> 
> Yes, there were two swords. I have to admit it, but I've forgotten which was which. The real sword was placed in the lake by Snape, and taken out by Ron (or was it Harry?) And there was a fake sword in Bellatrix's vault. But right now I've forgotten what happened to the real sword between the lake and the Sorting Hat.

Pippin:

There were two swords, the real sword which was hidden by Snape in a pool and drawn out by Ron, and the fake one which Snape gave to Bellatrix. But the real sword, the one taken from Harry at Gringotts and the one Neville pulled from the Sorting Hat to kill Nagini were one and the same. Gryffindor's sword was enchanted to present itself under conditions of need and chivalry to any worthy Gryffindor, The sword obviously did not share Griphook's theory that it was rightfully Goblin property, and just like the Elder Wand, it deserted the thief when a rightful claimant had need of it.

Pippin
>





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun 13 15:03:47 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 15:03:47 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it37og+cpdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it58sj+4317@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190528

 
> > Potioncat:
> <SNIP>
> .> It's the same situation that happened in the first year. Draco tricked Harry into a duel. Harry was going to meet Draco in the dead of night out of a sense of honor (11-year-old boy honor). But it wasn't going to be Draco he met, but Filch. And it's much more like the year Harry was following Draco, trying to prove what a danger Draco was. That's the same thing Severus was doing.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> So I thought about it and decided that I have a better analogy, even though I again totally agree that Harry did not have to go meet Draco and the choice to go there was his and only his alone. The difference for me is that before Draco challenged him, Harry had no desire to go there, while Snape was trying to figure out Shrieking Shack way before Sirius told him.
> 
> So I suggest Harry's Hogsmead excursion and Twins' help as better analogy for Harry's behavior being similar to Snape's, not for Twins being similar to Sirius.
> 
> Harry REALLY wanted to go, REALLY, no matter how dangerous and selfish it was, so he leaped at first possible help and went no matter what danger may have happened to him.
> 

Pippin:
What's really similar  is the Ton-tongue Toffee incident. The Twins think Dudley deserves some payback for bullying Harry. But they aren't killers and no one  entertains the idea that they even thought Dudley might've suffocated, though he comes close to it. It was a cruel and malicious joke, but it wasn't supposed to be life-threatening. Too bad. Because society's rejoinder is, "You should have thought of that before!" and only their youth could have excused them. If they were lucky.

One could hardly blame the Dursleys if *they*  thought it was intentional, and also thought that Harry and even Arthur were in on it. 
 
The Twins also didn't think about how it would look for Arthur if his  children were involved in anything even remotely resembling a Muggle-baiting. If Arthur hadn't been there to straighten things out before the Improper Use of Magic Office heard about it,   Lucius Malfoy would've thought Christmas had come early. 

What the Twins did was wrong, and also abysmally stupid. It could have turned out far worse for their friends and family than it did for their intended victim, but for all that it wasn't evil and Arthur doesn't treat it as such. Certainly he isn't about to end their relationship -- they haven't shown him that they're unworthy of his love, they've shown him just how much they need it. 

But it wasn't entirely innocent either, and Arthur doesn't buy the excuse that the Twins didn't make Dudley eat the candy, not one bit.

---
"I didn't give him anything,"said Fred with another evil grin. "I just *dropped* it...It was his fault he went and ate it, I never told him to."
"You dropped it on purpose!" roared Mr. Weasley. "You knew he'd eat it, you knew he was on a diet--"
GoF ch 5

To draw on your analogy with your chocolate-lover friend, if you knew she was desperate for a chocolate and you told her how to find one, it would be highly disingenuous for you to claim that you didn't know she was going to eat it.

Pippin









From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 17:01:30 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 17:01:30 -0000
Subject: ADMIN GOF Chapter Discussions
In-Reply-To: <it3pkd+jgkv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it5fpa+mk2b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190529



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys, if you want chapter discussions to continue, we really need volunteers for GoF, really. Please, pretty please?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Alika Elf.
> >
> 
> 
> Sorry, please respond to owner's email address.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alika elf.
>

Can we assume that is "username" at Yahoo . com? 

dumbledore11214 at Yahoo...

Steve/bboyminn





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 17:14:29 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 17:14:29 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member - The Sword
In-Reply-To: <it2el4+vg8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it5ghl+u8kn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190530



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sally_dye_1" <sallydye at ...> wrote:
>
> ...In reading the last book, I thought that Griphook the goblin took the sword when they were in Gringott's.  But then at the end, Neville takes it from the sorting hat to kill Nagini.  Are there two different swords?  Or did I miss something important earlier in the book?  If anyone can help me out here, I'd appreciate it.
> 
> Sally
>

Steve:

I think Pippin is closest in her response. I'm going from memory here, and I do remember pondering this myself.

During the Gringott's break in, Griphook takes the sword and runs. That sword is the real sword, the one Harry/Ron pulled from the pond. True, now Griphook or some other goblin has it in their possession, but the sword is later transferred by magic to Neville via the Sorting Hat. He then, in turn, uses the sword to kill Nagini. 

The thing I wondered was, where was the Sword stored, who had it, and how long did it take them to realize it was gone, and how did they feel about that, especially when they found out the Sword played a critical role in the defeat of Voldemort? 

Do you suppose Griphook claimed if for his own, and hung it above the mantle piece in his home? Did he turn it over to the Goblin authorities? Did he return it to the rightful descendant of the original maker of the Sword? Inquiring minds want to know. 

Just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn





From sallydye at wabash.net  Mon Jun 13 11:46:28 2011
From: sallydye at wabash.net (sally_dye_1)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 11:46:28 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it3urf+rn0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it4tak+33np@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190531

> Pippin:
> There were two swords, the real sword which was hidden by Snape
in a pool and drawn out by Ron, and the fake one which Snape gave
to Bellatrix. But the real sword, the one taken from Harry at
Gringotts and the one Neville pulled from the Sorting Hat to kill
Nagini were one and the same. Gryffindor's sword was enchanted to
present itself under conditions of need and chivalry to any worthy
Gryffindor, The sword obviously did not share Griphook's theory
that it was rightfully Goblin property, and just like the Elder
Wand, it deserted the thief when a rightful claimant had need of
> it.

Sally:
Thanks!




From daveh47 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 13 20:59:48 2011
From: daveh47 at gmail.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:59:48 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question from a new member - The Sword
In-Reply-To: <it5ghl+u8kn@eGroups.com>
References: <it2el4+vg8p@eGroups.com>
 <it5ghl+u8kn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4df67a49.221c440a.4a96.fffff743@mx.google.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190532

Steve:
>Do you suppose Griphook claimed if for his own, and hung it above 
>the mantle piece in his home? Did he turn it over to the Goblin 
>authorities? Did he return it to the rightful descendant of the 
>original maker of the Sword? Inquiring minds want to know.

Dave:
Either way, I would have loved to have to have been a Cornish Pixie 
on the wall when Griphook and/or other Goblins either found the Sword 
was gone, or (better still) it vanished before their very eyes -- 
Imagine the looks on their faces!

Dave




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Jun 14 01:28:50 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 01:28:50 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <isud9k+emia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it6dgi+6ujm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190533



<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
<snip>

> Having said it, it is completely irrelevant to the point I am making. Yes, Snape could have been killed, as I said several times and never disputed that. All I am disputing is taking away Snape's choice in what have happened. Had he never went there, nothing would have happened.
> 
> Sirius made the task easier for him, which he had no business to do, but thats all he did, and again his mindset is also irrelevant for what I am saying. He could have just beeing a teenager idiot, he could have wanted to kill Snape, makes no difference in my opinion.
> 
> He still did not *make* Snape to go there.
> 
>
Nikkalmati

I don't see why it is a matter of proving Sirius "made" or "forced" Snape to go.  No one really argues that.  He tricked Snape, he enticed Snape and, yes, he preyed on Snape's weakness.  Sirius had important knowledge he withheld.  The Prank might not meet the requiirement of first degree murder, but I could easily argue either voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, if things had not gone well.  So what is the point of arguing Sirius did not make Snape go?  It sounds like an attempt to absolve Sirius of all responsibility.

A major reason some of us hold that Sirius bears responsibility is because he never expresses any remorse, even as an adult.  He never admits he could have gotten James killed (I assume James could not transform in the tunnel) or Remus killed or expelled.  Sirius would have born responsibility for those results, I assume you agree?  Otherwise why wouldn't Lupin forgive him without any trouble.  After all, it was not his fault.  I personally am appaled that Sirius never expresses to Harry or to Lupin that maybe it was not a good idea. Instead he tries to pass the blame all to Snape.

BTW although Snape saw Mrs. Pomfrey and Lupin going to the WW in the evening, a full moon can occur at any time of day and I assume Lupin would have to go to the Shack whenever a full moon was due. 

Snape and Lily's discussion in DH is not completely in accord with what we learn in POA. Snape seems after the Prank to still not be sure what is happening with Lupin.  Is that just because he has promised to conceal it?  According to Lily's reply he has already told her his speculation and she has rejected it.  So, when did she find out the truth?  How widespread was the knowledge of the Prank?  Did all the Gryffindor's know or did James and Sirius tell only Lily?  
   
Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Jun 14 01:44:54 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 01:44:54 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it3urf+rn0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it6eem+tqhs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190534



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  Sally wrote:
> > snip
> >   Are there two different swords? Or did I miss something important earlier in the book?  If anyone can help me out here, I'd appreciate it.
> > > 
> > 
> > Potioncat:
> > Welcome to our group! We love to discuss questions, even if we have discussed them before--just see any Sirius/Severus thread.
> > 
> > Yes, there were two swords. I have to admit it, but I've forgotten which was which. The real sword was placed in the lake by Snape, and taken out by Ron (or was it Harry?) And there was a fake sword in Bellatrix's vault. But right now I've forgotten what happened to the real sword between the lake and the Sorting Hat.
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> There were two swords, the real sword which was hidden by Snape in a pool and drawn out by Ron, and the fake one which Snape gave to Bellatrix. But the real sword, the one taken from Harry at Gringotts and the one Neville pulled from the Sorting Hat to kill Nagini were one and the same. Gryffindor's sword was enchanted to present itself under conditions of need and chivalry to any worthy Gryffindor, The sword obviously did not share Griphook's theory that it was rightfully Goblin property, and just like the Elder Wand, it deserted the thief when a rightful claimant had need of it.
> 
> Pippin
> >
>
Nikkalmati

I have had some worries over the movements of the Sword too.  Where was it between Godric's time and Harry's?  DD seemed to know about it.  Was it kept in the Headmaster's office all that time?  Did the goblins know where it was and did they ever try to get it back?  Is the fake sword still sitting in Beletrix's vault?  How did Ginny and company know the Trio would need it, or did they plan to use it; how would they get it to Harry after they stole it from the office?  Why did Snape give a fake to Bellatrix unless LV ordered him to hide it and why would LV want him to hide it?  Did LV know it could destroy a Horcrux?  Bella thought LV would be very angry if it was taken from her vault, but more because the Huffelpuff cup was there too.  I agree the sword seems to come when called and that the goblins lost it to Neville.

Nikkalmati




From kersberg at chello.nl  Tue Jun 14 09:25:37 2011
From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:25:37 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member - The Sword
In-Reply-To: <it5ghl+u8kn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it79eh+m7hb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190535



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
---> 
> Do you suppose Griphook claimed if for his own, and hung it above the mantle piece in his home? Did he turn it over to the Goblin authorities? Did he return it to the rightful descendant of the original maker of the Sword? Inquiring minds want to know. 
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Steve/bboyminn


I think the last option is the most logic one, Griphook made some fuss about Gryffendor it from some Goblin he named... and about thiefish attitudes of wizards, so he would very bad off in the Goblin community if he kept it himself.

obvious the Goblins did not understand the magic that enables a true Griffindor to pull it out of the Sorting Hat, otherwise the would have countermagic that hattrick.




From kersberg at chello.nl  Tue Jun 14 09:31:08 2011
From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:31:08 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it6eem+tqhs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it79os+ipff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190536



===Bellatrix isn't angry because of the Sword itself, but angry because she thinks her vault is violated, in which she has an item entrusted to her by Voldy.
that she gives away a hding place of a Horcrux she don't realise, nit even it's a Horcrux... 

what surprices me is that someone who has been in jail for so many years still has a vault, with Sirius it was the same; he was a fugitive, but could draw money from his vault to buy a broom.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 12:12:13 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:12:13 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it6dgi+6ujm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it7j6t+lhfl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190537



.> Nikkalmati
> 
> I don't see why it is a matter of proving Sirius "made" or "forced" Snape to go.  No one really argues that.  He tricked Snape, he enticed Snape and, yes, he preyed on Snape's weakness.  Sirius had important knowledge he withheld.  The Prank might not meet the requiirement of first degree murder, but I could easily argue either voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, if things had not gone well.  So what is the point of arguing Sirius did not make Snape go?  It sounds like an attempt to absolve Sirius of all responsibility. <SNIP>


Alla:

How did he *entice* Snape to go if Snape chose to go all on his own? And to me saying that he did that is absolving Snape of his responsibility of choosing to go all on his own. What was Snape's "weakness" in this situation? Was there somebody he wanted to save in there? Was there something good he needed to do? No, he did not need to go there at all. No, to me he wanted to confirm his suspicions or knowledge that there was werewolf there, which is for me pretty much a canon fact, or maybe (to me canon based speculation) he may have wanted to restrain or kill Lupin.

As I mentioned before, how exactly am I absolving Sirius of responsibility if to me it is quite possible that he may have wanted to kill Snape. I personally do not believe it, but I acknowledge the possibility since

But to me, what you are doing is absolving Snape of his  responsibility to not go where he was not supposed to, no matter how he wanted to go or how much of information Sirius shared with him.

Because sure some Snape fans (sorry, I do not remember anybody else but Pippin saying it lately so I generalize) say that Snape is responsible for being out of bounds, but it sounds so strange to me, because it sounds as if Snape is responsible for being out of bounds elsewhere, not just deciding to go to Shrieking Shack. All I want is to acknowledge that yes, he is responsible for CHOOSING to go to Shack all on his own.

Snape had his free will hadn't he? He did not have to go, no matter how much he *wanted* to, so to me each of them is responsible for his own thing. Sirius' mindset may as well been of the murderer that night, but if Snape did not choose to go, nothing would have happened.

Nikkalmati:
<SNIP>
A major reason some of us hold that Sirius bears responsibility is because he
never expresses any remorse, even as an adult. He never admits he could have
gotten James killed (I assume James could not transform in the tunnel) or Remus
killed or expelled. Sirius would have born responsibility for those results, I
assume you agree? Otherwise why wouldn't Lupin forgive him without any trouble.
After all, it was not his fault. I personally am appaled that Sirius never
expresses to Harry or to Lupin that maybe it was not a good idea. Instead he
tries to pass the blame all to Snape.

Alla:

Yes, of course I think he would have been responsible together with Snape, him for giving Snape an information, which could have had Snape kiilled if Snape chose to go and him for going, as I said, I could easily see attempted murder charge, I just as easily see the reasonable doubt introduced, very easily. As I said, I did a happy dance when Snape was killed that is why while in principle I agree with you, I would not have shed tears so I am not the person to ask to be appalled, I was just delighted that JKR decided to spare the next generation of Hogwarts the torment Harry had been through. I am appalled that we never saw him expressing remorse to Lupin though,thats for sure, although maybe he did, who knows. After all several things about prank left vague still.

I am sure I have said it before  but I think I will say it again, to me if I would have had any doubts that JKR thought Snape's behavior after the prank was wrong and ungrateful, his death took away those doubts.

Oh you are so sorry Snape that James saved you? You really wanted to be killed in the Shack by the monster, here we go, killed in the Shack only by real monster, not by Lupin who was as gentle as they come in human form IMO.

JMO,

Alla



.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 12:37:51 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:37:51 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it7j6t+lhfl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it7kmv+lkun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190538

Oh, I have an idea. Maybe this would show more clearly how I feel. As I said, in my mind Sirius may have wanted to kill the Snape or he just wanted to play a joke on him. I know which one I believe, but as I said I fully acknowledge the other possibility.

Now lets imagine that somebody who had no idea whatsoever who was in the Shack, but knew how to get there, gave Snape such information, this somebody is completely innocent and we know it, he does not want to harm Snape, just wants to be helpful and he has no idea that there is a werewolf there.

Now raise your hand, if somebody has ANY doubt that Snape would have gone there no matter who gave him that information. Does his responsibility in the matter gets any less just because the party who actually gave him the information may have wanted to harm him?!

I just do not think so.


JMO,

Alla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jun 14 16:18:09 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:18:09 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it7kmv+lkun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it81k1+lgaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190539

Alla: 
> Now raise your hand, if somebody has ANY doubt that Snape would have gone there no matter who gave him that information. Does his responsibility in the matter gets any less just because the party who actually gave him the information may have wanted to harm him?!
> 
> I just do not think so.
> 

Pippin:
Now raise your hand if you have any doubt that Voldemort would have gone to the Potters no matter who gave him the information about the prophecy. Does that mean Snape didn't have any responsibility for what happened?

Conversely,  if Dumbledore had used Snape's information to  trap  Voldemort, Snape would have gotten that Order of Merlin, First Class. 

The general principle, enshrined  in law and ethics for thousands of years, is that the person who acts in good faith is responsible only for the consequences of his actions that he could reasonably foresee.  So, for example, even though Harry told Cedric to take the cup,  Cedric's death is not his fault. But it *is* Fake!Moody's fault, even though he didn't want Cedric to take the Cup and would have prevented it if he could.

That's because the person who acts out of malice is responsible for everything that happens as a consequence, whether intended or not. Snape is responsible for Lily's death because he was acting maliciously (towards the wizarding world)  in bringing the prophecy to Voldemort. That doesn't take away Voldemort's choice, or mean that Snape *made* Voldemort attack Lily. He certainly didn't entice Voldemort to do it.  It just means that both Snape and Voldemort have responsibility for what happened, along with Peter Pettigrew and any other DE's that were involved. 

Sirius was acting maliciously when he told Snape how to enter the willow, and so, IMO, he would be responsible for anything that happened to Snape as a consequence of that action, whether it was intended or not. That Snape himself may have intended some malice towards Lupin is not relevant. Sirius still had no right to dispose of Snape's life as he chose, carelessly or otherwise.

Does anyone doubt that what Sirius should have done, when he found out that Snape had seen Lupin and Pomfrey going to the willow, is report it? But that would have meant Lupin's refuge would be moved, and probably placed out of reach of the animagi and their criminal escapades. 

 Snape's death in the Shrieking Shack is supposed to be a karmic reward for his ingratitude to James for saving him? Really?  Being ungrateful is loutish, certainly. But a sin??? 

Yes, he gets killed by a monster in the same place where he might have died if James had not saved him. But JKR's point is that sooner or later there's a monster waiting for us all. Our only choice is whether to meet death like a fool, as Snape would have done if he'd encountered Lupin, or like a hero. And even the man who did not live  life as a hero can still die like one.

"its bitter teeth
closed on his neck, and covered him
with waves of blood"
--Beowulf

Pippin


 







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jun 14 16:56:51 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:56:51 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it6eem+tqhs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it83sj+kjee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190540


> Nikkalmati
> 
> I have had some worries over the movements of the Sword too.  Where was it between Godric's time and Harry's? DD seemed to know about it.  Was it kept in the Headmaster's office all that time? 

Pippin:
It was in the Headmaster's office. Dumbledore, who knew that Voldemort was collecting relics of The Founders, believed that Voldemort had meant to steal it when he first returned to Hogwarts and applied for the DADA job. He expected that Voldemort would seize the sword if he ever got the power to do so. 

I don't know if Voldemort realized that the sword would destroy a horcrux. But Voldemort knew he still had enemies at the school. He wouldn't have wanted to leave them a weapon in any case. I'd expect him to know about the enchantments on the sword, which were not a secret (see below). He must have believed that the magic of the Gringotts vaults, which obviously don't allow their contents to be removed by magic, would be strong enough to keep the sword inside. Possibly Griphook believed that also. 

Scrimgeour says that the sword belongs to Hogwarts, and may present itself to any worthy Gryffindor. He does not treat this information as if it were secret, so I think it was known to most experts on ancient magic, goblins included. Those goblins more pragmatic and less fanatical than Griphook probably treated the sword as a lost cause. As long as it was enchanted it would eventually revert to  Gryffindor hands regardless of who claimed it.
 

The sword would be worth more valued as a relic of Godric Gryffindor than as a decorated sword, and its value as a relic would be drastically diminished if enchantments cast by Godric Gryffindor himself were removed from it. So the goblins could have got it back only by destroying the very thing that made it so valuable, unless they wanted to make a political statement and didn't care about its value in gold. I suspect few goblins are as fanatical as that, though maybe Griphook was. 

I think JKR had the case of the Elgin Marbles in mind. Greece would really, really like to have them back. But only a few fanatics  would go to war for them.

The goblins do not like getting involved in quarrels between wizards, which is doubtless why they allow people declared outlaws by the WW to access their vaults. It's not their job to enforce wizard law.

Pippin





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 17:09:47 2011
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 17:09:47 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member - The Sword
In-Reply-To: <it5ghl+u8kn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it84kr+8vc2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190541






--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

> Do you suppose Griphook claimed if for his own, and hung it 
> above the mantle piece in his home? Did he turn it over to 
> the Goblin authorities? Did he return it to the rightful 
> descendant of the original maker of the Sword? Inquiring 
> minds want to know. 


zanooda:

I believe Griphook didn't have the time to do any of that, because the goblins were in possession of the sword for less then 24 hours  :-). Griphook got the sword some time in the morning, and Neville took it away form him some time before sunrise of the next day. That makes less then 24 hours - definitely not enough time for poor Griphook to enjoy the ownership of the sword, LOL. I wonder if, after the sword disappeared from them, the Goblins finally believed that Godric Gryffindor was its rightful owner.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 21:12:54 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:12:54 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it81k1+lgaf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it8ism+dovu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190542



> Alla: 
> > Now raise your hand, if somebody has ANY doubt that Snape would have gone there no matter who gave him that information. Does his responsibility in the matter gets any less just because the party who actually gave him the information may have wanted to harm him?!
> > 
> > I just do not think so.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Now raise your hand if you have any doubt that Voldemort would have gone to the Potters no matter who gave him the information about the prophecy. Does that mean Snape didn't have any responsibility for what happened?

Alla:

But of course! I would have hold responsible ANY person who would have gave that information to Voldemort not just Snape. Was there any doubt of that? 


Pippin: 
> Conversely,  if Dumbledore had used Snape's information to  trap  Voldemort, Snape would have gotten that Order of Merlin, First Class. 
> 
> The general principle, enshrined  in law and ethics for thousands of years, is that the person who acts in good faith is responsible only for the consequences of his actions that he could reasonably foresee.  So, for example, even though Harry told Cedric to take the cup,  Cedric's death is not his fault. But it *is* Fake!Moody's fault, even though he didn't want Cedric to take the Cup and would have prevented it if he could.

Alla:

Except to me the HUGE difference is that Cedric did not have any choice in the matter, not a real choice. Everything was prearranged, so of course anybody who would have taken the cup would have suffered the same fate. Snape had a choice, a very real one IMO.

Pippin:
> That's because the person who acts out of malice is responsible for everything that happens as a consequence, whether intended or not. Snape is responsible for Lily's death because he was acting maliciously (towards the wizarding world)  in bringing the prophecy to Voldemort. That doesn't take away Voldemort's choice, or mean that Snape *made* Voldemort attack Lily. He certainly didn't entice Voldemort to do it.  It just means that both Snape and Voldemort have responsibility for what happened, along with Peter Pettigrew and any other DE's that were involved. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, of course, again when did I ever said otherwise? Sirius is responsible for what he did, but that does not take away Snape's responsibility. If Snape died, Sirius would have been responsible for that, but not alone, not alone Pippin, as far as I am concerned. Without Snape going there, nothing would have happened. As long as we do not forget Snape's part in what have happened, huge part in my view, please I have no problem with you charging Sirius with anything you like. As I said, the inferences that I am making as Sirius' fan do not matter, because they are inferences, I perceive it as stupid joke that could have ended deadly, because I am willing to give Sirius' benefit of the doubt, but as far as facts are concerned the possibility that he may have wanted to kill Snape is equally valid. But what I am objecting to is taking out Snape's decision to go there, which he would have done no matter who would have told him that information. That does NOT absolve Sirius of may have wanting to kill Snape at all if thats what he wanted. 

Pippin:
>  Snape's death in the Shrieking Shack is supposed to be a karmic reward for his ingratitude to James for saving him? Really?  Being ungrateful is loutish, certainly. But a sin??? 

Alla:

Goodness, no, not a reward, a carmic payback, for tormenting James's son for one of many James' offenses amongst them being saving him IMO.

Pipin: 
> Yes, he gets killed by a monster in the same place where he might have died if James had not saved him. But JKR's point is that sooner or later there's a monster waiting for us all. Our only choice is whether to meet death like a fool, as Snape would have done if he'd encountered Lupin, or like a hero. And even the man who did not live  life as a hero can still die like one.
> 
> "its bitter teeth
> closed on his neck, and covered him
> with waves of blood"
> --Beowulf


Alla:

That was beatifully written Pippin, but unless we are in JKR's head, we cannot be sure what her point was yes? I think my canon based speculation about the way he died is as valid as yours.

JMO,

Alla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Jun 15 03:41:44 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 03:41:44 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <it8ism+dovu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it99lo+8i23@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190543

 
> Alla:
> 
> Except to me the HUGE difference is that Cedric did not have any choice in the matter, not a real choice. Everything was prearranged, so of course anybody who would have taken the cup would have suffered the same fate. Snape had a choice, a very real one IMO.

Pippin:
See, I can agree with most of  your post except this, because to me Cedric's choices and Snape's are eerily similar. Cedric chose to enter the Tri-wizard Tournament. He knew he'd be tested to the limits of his bravery, knowledge and skill. He was warned he'd have to cope with danger.  Cedric knew  he could expect to find monsters in the maze, maybe even the deadliest kind. He'd already had to face a dragon. 

But he was expecting a challenge, not a deathtrap. There wasn't supposed to be anything in there so lethal that he couldn't defeat it, or at least get away.  The rules of the tournament compelled him to attempt the task; he was not compelled to finish it. He was supposed to be able to summon aid if he chose to, though he would forfeit his chance to win. 

Cedric knew the rules were getting bent here and there, but he still didn't think there was anyone  at Hogwarts so careless of his life that they would arrange for  him, or anyone who took the Cup, to face a known killer with no chance of escape. 

Do you see what I am getting at here? Snape had no more reason to think he would find himself in a deathtrap if he took up Sirius's challenge than Cedric had to think that the Cup was booby-trapped, because who at Hogwarts would do something like that?  

> Alla:
> 
> Goodness, no, not a reward, a carmic payback, for tormenting James's son for one of many James' offenses amongst them being saving him IMO.

Pippin:
I think the idea of carma breaks down in the stories. We all want to see goodness rewarded and evil punished, and we're glad when it happens. But it doesn't seem like it's the law of JKR's universe. When it comes to tormenting Harry, Umbridge and the Dursleys are far worse, and nothing so terrible happens to them. 

 It seems like Harry wants to think the world works that way, and slowly discovers that it doesn't. He wouldn't have tried to save Voldemort if he believed in payback. 

Characters are often, though not always,  undone by their own evil, but there's a natural explanation rather than a metaphysical one. Evil, like every other obsession, makes them stupid. It makes them overlook or explain away what ought to be obvious, self-evident facts.

Pippin





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 15 03:51:56 2011
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 03:51:56 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it79os+ipff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <it9a8s+f1le@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190544

kamion53 wrote:

> what surprices me is that someone who has been in jail for so many years still has a vault, with Sirius it was the same; he was a fugitive, but could draw money from his vault to buy a broom.

Joey:

That could be because Gringots seems to be primarily handled by Goblins especially at the money counters. If Goblins don't care about wizarding wars, maybe they don't care about fugitives of the WW too.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From fenneyml at gmail.com  Wed Jun 15 04:15:13 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:15:13 -0400
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it83sj+kjee@eGroups.com>
References: <it6eem+tqhs@eGroups.com>
	<it83sj+kjee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikryPOYuo+FaMwtb41BbTe=eWvBwQ@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190545

>  Pippin:
>  Scrimgeour says that the sword belongs to Hogwarts, and may 
> present itself to any worthy Gryffindor. He does not treat this 
> information as if it were secret, so I think it was known to 
> most experts on ancient magic, goblins included. Those goblins 
> more pragmatic and less fanatical than Griphook probably treated 
> the sword as a lost cause. As long as it was enchanted it would 
> eventually revert to Gryffindor hands regardless of who claimed 
> it.


Bookcrazzzy:

I don't think Scrimgeour saying what he did about the sword to three
Gryffindor students under those conditions is adequate support for 
the idea that it was known to most experts on ancient magic, and 
certainly not where goblins are concerned.  They have their own 
lore, do not have wand lore and wouldn't have any reason to know of 
Hogwarts-specific enchantments.  Given what Bill Weasley had to say 
about goblins in his warnings to Harry, I don't think Griphook was 
"fanatical" at all.  In fact, I think Griphook was less so since he 
helped Harry, albeit with the sword as reward to him, and recognized 
that Harry and his friends "different" than what wizards were 
supposed to be from a goblins point of view even though he didn't go 
so far as to truly trust them.

>  Pippin:
> The sword would be worth more valued as a relic of Godric 
> Gryffindor than as a decorated sword, and its value as a relic 
> would be drastically diminished if enchantments cast by Godric 
> Gryffindor himself were removed from it. So the goblins could 
> have got it back only by destroying the very thing that made it 
> so valuable, unless they wanted to make a political statement 
> and didn't care about its value in gold. I suspect few goblins
> are as fanatical as that, though maybe Griphook was.

Bookcrazzzy:

I don't think Griphook or any of the goblins cared about Godric 
Gryffindor or his enchantments on the sword.  To them, the value 
of the sword was in the fact that it was goblin-made.  Sure, 
goblins love treasure and gold, but the deep desire of Griphook 
for the sword was due to the fact that it was goblin-made and the 
wizard who "rented" it was long gone so it was a goblin artifact 
stolen by wizards.  It's possession by wizards was an affront to
goblins and I would think that any enchantment on it by a wizard 
would be detestable to goblins whether or not such an enchantment 
made it more valuable to wizards.

> Pippin:
> The goblins do not like getting involved in quarrels between 
> wizards, which is doubtless why they allow people declared 
> outlaws by the WW to access their vaults. It's not their job 
> to enforce wizard law.

Bookcrazzzy:

Are you referencing the fact that Sirius was able to buy the 
Firebolt for Harry here?  Certainly the goblins were given 
instructions regarding Bellatrix Lestrange and applied additional 
security in that situation so it would seem to me that they do 
enforce restrictions when it has to do with attempted theft.  
However, their stewardship in banking is a matter of protecting 
assets for the owners and whether outlaw or not, Sirius was the 
rightful owner of his gold and thus given access to it.  Ownership 
of assets and their protection is the issue, not legal status in 
the WW or goblin prejudices.

JMO,

Bookcrazzzy



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 15 19:09:01 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:09:01 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <it99lo+8i23@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itb00d+m9so@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190546





>  
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Except to me the HUGE difference is that Cedric did not have any choice in the matter, not a real choice. Everything was prearranged, so of course anybody who would have taken the cup would have suffered the same fate. Snape had a choice, a very real one IMO.
> 
> Pippin:
> See, I can agree with most of  your post except this, because to me Cedric's choices and Snape's are eerily similar. Cedric chose to enter the Tri-wizard Tournament. He knew he'd be tested to the limits of his bravery, knowledge and skill. He was warned he'd have to cope with danger.  Cedric knew  he could expect to find monsters in the maze, maybe even the deadliest kind. He'd already had to face a dragon. 
> 
> But he was expecting a challenge, not a deathtrap. There wasn't supposed to be anything in there so lethal that he couldn't defeat it, or at least get away.  The rules of the tournament compelled him to attempt the task; he was not compelled to finish it. He was supposed to be able to summon aid if he chose to, though he would forfeit his chance to win. 
> 
> Cedric knew the rules were getting bent here and there, but he still didn't think there was anyone  at Hogwarts so careless of his life that they would arrange for  him, or anyone who took the Cup, to face a known killer with no chance of escape. 
> 
> Do you see what I am getting at here? Snape had no more reason to think he would find himself in a deathtrap if he took up Sirius's challenge than Cedric had to think that the Cup was booby-trapped, because who at Hogwarts would do something like that? 


Alla:

Ah, yes, now I do see what you are getting at, I just do not think I agree. I think the part of it is because I just cannot see their choices as similar. I thought you were only comparing Cedric's choice to share a cup, so I did not agree with it, but sure I agree that Cedric chose to enter TriWizard tournament all on his own, it was not prearranged etc. Except, see I think Cedric was doing a choice which he would think would test him to the limits, which of course could and likely will be dangerous, but the difference to me between Cedric choice to enter Tournament and Snape's choice to enter a Shack was that Cedric did not think that his choice was to do something as evil and selfish as Snape wanted to. Cedric wanted to win in the Tournament, which he wanted to do in the most noble way. Snape wanted to do *something* to his fellow student, can we agree on that? I mean even if you do not buy my speculation that he wanted to kill Remus, I think it is pretty clear that he wanted to catch werewolf on something? Mind you he knew that Remus is officially accepted in school, he saw Remus going there with Madame Pomfrey, so he knew adults are aware of whatever is happening in the Shack. And he still wanted to catch Remus, whom he suspected (I firmly convinced he knew based on his conversation with Lily, but lets stick with suspected) on something. The *least* which Remus could have expected, if Snape confirms that he is a werewolf is that he will be expelled, can we agree on that? Because werewolves are still not officially allowed at Hogwarts at that time, right?

So, no I do not see the situations as similar at all, I mean they both chose to do something dangerous, but Cedric was not signing up to do something evil, selfish and against the rules. He was signing up for very official school competition.



 
> 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Goodness, no, not a reward, a carmic payback, for tormenting James's son for one of many James' offenses amongst them being saving him IMO.
> 
> Pippin:
> I think the idea of carma breaks down in the stories. We all want to see goodness rewarded and evil punished, and we're glad when it happens. But it doesn't seem like it's the law of JKR's universe. When it comes to tormenting Harry, Umbridge and the Dursleys are far worse, and nothing so terrible happens to them.
<SNIP>
 
>Alla:

I am not advocating that books have consistent system of carmic payback actually. I am just saying that I see this situation and several others as carmic payback, thats all. It is just too convenient for me to consider where he died and how he died to be a coincidence and I do not quite buy your reasoning of it. After all if we were to follow that path, then every death in the books would have been by monster's hand. Lupin and Tonks just died, no monsters were waiting for them, no monster was waiting for Dumbledore unless you consider Snape to be one, etc, etc.

JMO,
Alla




From juli17 at aol.com  Wed Jun 15 20:03:35 2011
From: juli17 at aol.com (jules)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:03:35 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <it8ism+dovu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itb36n+4530@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190547


> Alla:
> 
> Yes, of course, again when did I ever said otherwise? Sirius is responsible for what he did, but that does not take away Snape's responsibility. If Snape died, Sirius would have been responsible for that, but not alone, not alone Pippin, as far as I am concerned. Without Snape going there, nothing would have happened. As long as we do not forget Snape's part in what have happened, huge part in my view, please I have no problem with you charging Sirius with anything you like. As I said, the inferences that I am making as Sirius' fan do not matter, because they are inferences, I perceive it as stupid joke that could have ended deadly, because I am willing to give Sirius' benefit of the doubt, but as far as facts are concerned the possibility that he may have wanted to kill Snape is equally valid. But what I am objecting to is taking out Snape's decision to go there, which he would have done no matter who would have told him that information. That does NOT absolve Sirius of may have wanting to kill Snape at all if thats what he wanted. 
> 

Julie:
I also agreed that Snape was stupid to go there, and if he was
killed it would be partly his own fault for going somewhere 
an "enemy" sent him without considering the source of the 
information. The difference between us I think, is that I see
Sirius as more at fault than Snape. Especially so since he 
put Remus in equal danger, and Remus was totally unaware. 

What the prank really means to me is that Sirius was not a 
nice guy as a teenager, in fact a worse person at the time
than Snape. As an adult, obviously Snape was a worse person
for a time, while he was a Death Eater. By the time the two
met up again, after Sirius got out of Azkaban, I'd probably
consider them about even. Snape was a reformed Death Eater,
a spy, working for the good, but still a mean and bitter man.
Sirius was out of Azkaban, but still unrepentant about his
teenage ways in relation to Snape, and as unforgiving and 
unwilling to look at anyone or anything outside his own
preconceived notions as was Snape. Which makes neither of 
them people I could actually like in person, and both of
their lives ultimately tragic, IMO.

Julie 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Jun 16 02:19:51 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 02:19:51 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itb00d+m9so@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itbp87+mgus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190548

 
> Alla:
> 
snip
 Except, see I think Cedric was doing a choice which he would think would test him to the limits, which of course could and likely will be dangerous, but the difference to me between Cedric choice to enter Tournament and Snape's choice to enter a Shack was that Cedric did not think that his choice was to do something as evil and selfish as Snape wanted to. Cedric wanted to win in the Tournament, which he wanted to do in the most noble way. Snape wanted to do *something* to his fellow student, can we agree on that?

Potioncat:
If POA was the last book to have come out, I might agree with you. Although if we look back to those days, I probably didn't :-) But now we know about the real rivalry between Severus and the Marauders. We know how it started and what James and Sirius were like as young students.

So I don't see it that Severus was doing something evil and selfish.
He's a young boy who believes a fellow student is a danger to the other students. He tries to convince a friend of this, but is rebuffed. Sounds like Harry in HBP, doesn't it? Was Harry being evil or selfish as he followed Draco around? Was he wrong to want Draco expelled? Did he think DD really knew what was going on?

And come to think of it, how many times have we seen DD allowing dangerous people or dangerous situations at Hogwarts? So both Harry and Severus had reason to doubt DD's judgement.

 
> > > Alla:
> > > 
> > > Goodness, no, not a reward, a carmic payback, for tormenting James's son for one of many James' offenses amongst them being saving him IMO.

Potioncat:
Happy dance aside....

karmic justice? I think not. Although there is a real pattern, Snape went to the Shrieking Shack three times that we know of and all three times turned out badly. At least twice he went there because of Harry.

If you think Snape's death was karma for how he treated James's son what do you think James's and Lily's deaths were---punishment for how they treated young Severus?

So while I see where you are coming from, and defend your opinion, I don't agree with the interpretation. I do think Snape died as part of the construction of this type of story. All of Harry's father figures die (except for Arthur--thankyou JKR for that small mercy)

JMO you know.
> > 


>





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun 16 04:01:08 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 04:01:08 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itb00d+m9so@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itbv64+eth2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190549

> 
> Alla:
> 

 Cedric wanted to win in the Tournament, which he wanted to do in the most noble way. Snape wanted to do *something* to his fellow student, can we agree on that? 

Pippin:
 Snape wanted  to find out what Lupin and his friends were  up to.  He suspected it was something very bad. Who but Dark Wizards would want a werewolf for a friend?

  He wanted to prove the Marauders weren't as great as everyone thought. But he didn't think he was going to have to *frame* them. He wouldn't think he needed to. James and Sirius were habitual trouble-makers -- if they were sneaking around, it wasn't to do something *nice*. 

 I am sure Snape did not think much beyond the fact that if he could show that Lupin and his friends were   doing something wrong, they would be stopped and punished. That is what is supposed to happen, isn't it? Is that a selfish, evil thing to want? 

Alla:
 Mind you he knew that Remus is officially accepted in school, he saw Remus going there with Madame Pomfrey, so he knew adults are aware of whatever is happening in the Shack. 

Pippin:
First of all, though canon is maddeningly inconsistent on the technicalities of Lupin's condition, we know from PoA that it  caused him to miss classes and meals. That Lupin's absences were sanctioned by the school would have been clear long before Snape saw Lupin going to the willow. By his own admission, Lupin told all kinds of stories to explain his absences. Snape would soon realize that Lupin was lying and that for some reason the adults were letting him get away with it. 

I suppose that Snape, like Harry in HPB, was tired of being treated like a conspiracy theorist for voicing the inconvenient truth.
  
Let's not forget Snape was still friends with Lily at this point. She might not feel Lupin was any danger to her, just as Hermione and Ron didn't feel threatened by Draco.  But I doubt Snape shared that opinion. He could have been only thinking of himself, but it's just as likely that he was thinking of her too. 

That's not to say Snape didn't expect to win anything for himself or didn't know he was breaking rules. But so did Cedric. He was going to get fame, glory and 500 golden galleons, (and Cho was going to be *so* impressed!).  And he knew full well that no one was going to be playing exactly by the rules, cheating being an historically accepted part of the game.  

No one in canon acts with purely selfish motives except Voldemort, and no one in canon is ever purely unselfish, not even Harry.

So I don't buy that Snape had only evil selfish motives for accepting Sirius's challenge, or that Cedric had only pure ones for being in the Tournament. 

Second, there seems to be some confusion about what Snape knew and when he knew it. 

He knew what Lupin was by the time of his conversation about him with Lily, because that was *after* The Prank.  What we see in this scene, IMO, is Snape's debut performance as an actor. The "official" story seems to be that he got into the tunnel on his own, and was rescued by James from something so  dangerous that  he couldn't be told what it was. Snape blurts out angrily that James didn't do anything noble by saving him, that he was trying to keep himself and his friends out of trouble,  but he quickly realizes that he can't tell Lily why he thinks so. 

Anyway, he doesn't persist with his arguments.

Once Lily says that James Potter is a toerag,  he's blissful. Perfectly satisfied.  So we *do* know what he wanted. He didn't want to fight Lupin, or kill him, or even get him kicked out of school. He just wanted Lily to think James was a jerk. If that's an evil, selfish motive, then okay, Snape is guilty as charged. 

Snape didn't say anything about the Shrieking Shack, because the Shack was still supposed to be secret. He didn't know that  the Shrieking Shack was involved with Lupin before the prank.  He may have found out afterwards, but that would be because somebody told him, since Lupin says he didn't get as far as the Shack, and there is no outward indication of where the tunnel leads. 


> >Alla:
> 
> I am not advocating that books have consistent system of carmic payback actually. I am just saying that I see this situation and several others as carmic payback, thats all. It is just too convenient for me to consider where he died and how he died to be a coincidence and I do not quite buy your reasoning of it. After all if we were to follow that path, then every death in the books would have been by monster's hand. Lupin and Tonks just died, no monsters were waiting for them, no monster was waiting for Dumbledore unless you consider Snape to be one, etc, etc.

Pippin:
Every death in the books is by violence, is it not? No, wait, Aragog dies of old age. But for the most part JKR is telling a story about a time when people  really shouldn't expect to die in bed. 

 My point is the books advocate  that we   all choose how to meet death. We will have to face it sooner or later, and it's better to die for a reason than to run away, or be tricked into facing mortal peril before you are ready. 

On the first reading, it seems that Snape is terrified out of his wits that Voldemort has decided to kill him. And then you realize, once you see  that he had complete and superb control of himself all along, that he was only afraid for his mission. And that he could have saved himself if he chose. All he had to say was, "Master, Dumbledore was wandless when he died! Ask the Carrows! Ask Draco -- I didn't defeat his wand!"

Pippin





From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Thu Jun 16 10:19:52 2011
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:19:52 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about OotP
In-Reply-To: <itbv64+eth2@eGroups.com>
References: <itbv64+eth2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0416C97D10B549FFA0E525CCD6156E4D@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 190550

Taya asks:
I'm just starting to read Order of the Phoenix (currently on ch6) and am 
curious why Voldemort wanted the Prophecy. Now I think about it, I wonder 
this from watching the film (where this desire was never explained).

Was Voldemort simply after finding out the whole Prophecy? Or was it, as 
suggested, powerful enough to be used for evil (like a weapon).

Sorry if this has been asked before. 




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Thu Jun 16 15:32:39 2011
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:32:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
References: <itb36n+4530@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <D923B26DF8744D78A9224C1BDDFB5EDD@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 190551

From: "jules" <juli17 at aol.com>
> What the prank really means to me is that Sirius was not a
> nice guy as a teenager, in fact a worse person at the time
> than Snape. As an adult, obviously Snape was a worse person
> for a time, while he was a Death Eater. By the time the two
> met up again, after Sirius got out of Azkaban, I'd probably
> consider them about even. Snape was a reformed Death Eater,
> a spy, working for the good, but still a mean and bitter man.
> Sirius was out of Azkaban, but still unrepentant about his
> teenage ways in relation to Snape, and as unforgiving and
> unwilling to look at anyone or anything outside his own
> preconceived notions as was Snape. Which makes neither of
> them people I could actually like in person, and both of
> their lives ultimately tragic, IMO.


Dorothy:

Julie,
      Yes, I also think that both Sirius and Snape were 
responsible in varying degrees concerning that "prank", and 
both still held onto their animosity to each other as adults 
as well as their stubborness.  As are most of us, they were 
flawed, yet in the end both were heroes. 
  Think peace,
    Dorothy




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Jun 16 19:14:16 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:14:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about OotP
In-Reply-To: <0416C97D10B549FFA0E525CCD6156E4D@TrekyPC>
References: <itbv64+eth2@eGroups.com> <0416C97D10B549FFA0E525CCD6156E4D@TrekyPC>
Message-ID: <4DFA5608.4050706@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190552

On 6/16/2011 6:19 AM, Liz Clark wrote:
> I'm just starting to read Order of the Phoenix (currently on ch6) and am
> curious why Voldemort wanted the Prophecy. Now I think about it, I wonder
> this from watching the film (where this desire was never explained).
>
> Was Voldemort simply after finding out the whole Prophecy? Or was it, as
> suggested, powerful enough to be used for evil (like a weapon).
>
> Sorry if this has been asked before.

Bart:
     Voldemort makes a standard evil overlord mistake. Evil overlord, 
trying to cover all bases, sees a potential rival, tries to destroy the 
potential rival, and in the process causes his own downfall. Snape 
recognized the prophecy as a genuine vision, and passed along what he 
heard to Morty, which was probably (there is no canon on this, but it's 
the one that fits Morty's actions best), "The one with the power to 
vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice 
defied him, born as the seventh month dies ..." So, Morty decides, hey, 
let's kill him while he still can't do any harm. Big mistake on his 
part. So, naturally, Morty wants to know what the hell went wrong. And 
he never finds out.

     Bart



From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Jun 16 19:17:21 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:17:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch
 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <D923B26DF8744D78A9224C1BDDFB5EDD@DG22FG61>
References: <itb36n+4530@eGroups.com> <D923B26DF8744D78A9224C1BDDFB5EDD@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <4DFA56C1.4060402@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190553

Dorothy:
>        Yes, I also think that both Sirius and Snape were
> responsible in varying degrees concerning that "prank", and
> both still held onto their animosity to each other as adults
> as well as their stubborness.  As are most of us, they were
> flawed, yet in the end both were heroes.

Bart:
     Also, consider the following scenario: During the events of HBP, a 
Slytherin lets slip to Harry a "method" of getting into the ROR while 
Draco is in there.

     Bart




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Thu Jun 16 19:20:45 2011
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:20:45 -0400
Subject: Question about OotP
References: <itbv64+eth2@eGroups.com> <0416C97D10B549FFA0E525CCD6156E4D@TrekyPC> <4DFA5608.4050706@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <DF68FFD0559B40CABAA1B0331D15D1DD@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 190554

> Bart:
>     Voldemort makes a standard evil overlord mistake. Evil overlord,
> trying to cover all bases, sees a potential rival, tries to destroy the
> potential rival, and in the process causes his own downfall. Snape
> recognized the prophecy as a genuine vision, and passed along what he
> heard to Morty, which was probably (there is no canon on this, but it's
> the one that fits Morty's actions best), "The one with the power to
> vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice
> defied him, born as the seventh month dies ..." So, Morty decides, hey,
> let's kill him while he still can't do any harm. Big mistake on his
> part. So, naturally, Morty wants to know what the hell went wrong. And
> he never finds out.

Dorothy:
   Bart,
   Not really germane to this subject, but I find it unusual that 
you call Voldemort "Morty".  Most folks who use a nickname for him 
use Voldey. Curiosity, that's all.  :)
  Think peace,
   Dorothy




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 21:08:36 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 21:08:36 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itbp87+mgus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itdrck+tn9q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190555



> > > > Alla:
> > > > 
> > > > Goodness, no, not a reward, a carmic payback, for tormenting James's son for one of many James' offenses amongst them being saving him IMO.
> 
> Potioncat:
> Happy dance aside....
> 
> karmic justice? I think not. Although there is a real pattern, Snape went to the Shrieking Shack three times that we know of and all three times turned out badly. At least twice he went there because of Harry.
> 
> If you think Snape's death was karma for how he treated James's son what do you think James's and Lily's deaths were---punishment for how they treated young Severus?
> 
> So while I see where you are coming from, and defend your opinion, I don't agree with the interpretation. I do think Snape died as part of the construction of this type of story. All of Harry's father figures die (except for Arthur--thankyou JKR for that small mercy)
> 
> JMO you know.


Alla:

I snipped stuff about Snape doing or not doing something selfish and dangerous, since I have to agree to disagree on that one, and even though we have to agree to disagree on this part too most likely, I just have to note that no, I do not see James and Lily's deaths as punishments for treating young Snape. Because to me it is a canon fact (I also respect different interpretations of this, but will never agree with it), that young Snape treated Lily many times more despicably than the way she treated him. I see Lily and James' deaths as casualties of war, but while from within the story I would have loved for them to live, I at least hope that Snape suffered and suffered a lot when he learned that Lily died, in other words I hope that in a sense her death was his punishment too for revealing the prophecy. Yes, I know he looked like a man in pain when he came to Dumbledore, but I hope his pain lasted a lifetime. As I said I would have loved a long life for them, even though the story would not have existed the way we know it. I know I said it before, that I am more than happy the way story was written, it is when I am starting to think of characters as *real people* is when I am wishing for Harry to have parents, for Sirius not to go to Azkaban and for Snape to die in Shrieking shack, if it was possible that nobody else would have suffered because of his death.

JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 21:22:04 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 21:22:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 18: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Pron
In-Reply-To: <itb36n+4530@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itds5s+tgak@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190556



> Julie:
> I also agreed that Snape was stupid to go there, and if he was
> killed it would be partly his own fault for going somewhere 
> an "enemy" sent him without considering the source of the 
> information. The difference between us I think, is that I see
> Sirius as more at fault than Snape. Especially so since he 
> put Remus in equal danger, and Remus was totally unaware. 

Alla:

Right, I see Sirius as much more at fault in regards to Remus for sure, but no, I see Sirius and Snape as equally at fault, but for different things in regards to Snape's fate. Without Sirius giving information, Snape would have still wanted to go, but could not. However without Snape going he would not have put himself in danger and he knew he was not supposed to go there.

And I guess we will also never find out why the heck did Snape *believe* anything that his enemy would say? To me it only confirms my thought that he was desperate to go and would have gone no matter who would have supplied him with information.

Julie: 
> What the prank really means to me is that Sirius was not a 
> nice guy as a teenager, in fact a worse person at the time
> than Snape. As an adult, obviously Snape was a worse person
> for a time, while he was a Death Eater. By the time the two
> met up again, after Sirius got out of Azkaban, I'd probably
> consider them about even. Snape was a reformed Death Eater,
> a spy, working for the good, but still a mean and bitter man.
> Sirius was out of Azkaban, but still unrepentant about his
> teenage ways in relation to Snape, and as unforgiving and 
> unwilling to look at anyone or anything outside his own
> preconceived notions as was Snape. Which makes neither of 
> them people I could actually like in person, and both of
> their lives ultimately tragic, IMO.


Alla:

I totally understand your POV and see the reasonableness of it. Of course I admire Sirius' breaking up with his family as teenager  so much that as Sirius' fan, I will take him over Snape any time, flaws and all whether he was a nice guy to Snape or not. I have zero problem with the man just out of Azkaban, whose happy memories were mostly eaten by Dementors not feeling remorse towards Snape who just promised to send him back to Dementors. I think that he may have been physically uncapable of doing it, when he was literally just out. Now, when he would have been functioning normally for few years and still said Snape deserved it, yes, sure fan or not, I would have had plenty of problems with it. And hey, I first fell in love with Sirius' character not because of anything he did or did not do, because sure I agree with you that in RL I would have run away from both of them (Sirius till years of therapy and Snape like forever). I fell in love with Sirius because he gave kindness to Harry, same as I hated Snape for hating Harry. I liked that again after years of Azkaban Sirius was able to feel something positive and hated that being sheltered by Dumbledore instead of going to Azkaban, Snape could not find a drop of kindness to the kid he already hurt so very much IMO.

Anyway, those are just views and inferences of us fans. You see Snape as better man overall, I see Sirius as better man overall. My only point of contention is in discarding Snape's responsibility for deciding to go into Shack, that is all. As I said, I totally see where you are coming from in everything else and what I am saying is myself willing to give Sirius benefit of the doubt, thats all.

This was not an argument by the way, at all, just rambling, which I am sure you have heard many times over the years :)

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 22:05:12 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:05:12 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itbv64+eth2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itdumo+h2si@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190557



> > Alla:
> > 
> 
>  Cedric wanted to win in the Tournament, which he wanted to do in the most noble way. Snape wanted to do *something* to his fellow student, can we agree on that? 
> 
> Pippin:
>  Snape wanted  to find out what Lupin and his friends were  up to.  He suspected it was something very bad. Who but Dark Wizards would want a werewolf for a friend?
> 
>   He wanted to prove the Marauders weren't as great as everyone thought. But he didn't think he was going to have to *frame* them. He wouldn't think he needed to. James and Sirius were habitual trouble-makers -- if they were sneaking around, it wasn't to do something *nice*. 
> 
>  I am sure Snape did not think much beyond the fact that if he could show that Lupin and his friends were   doing something wrong, they would be stopped and punished. That is what is supposed to happen, isn't it? Is that a selfish, evil thing to want? 

Alla:

Yes, to me, it is a selfish and evil thing to want. Not about James and Sirius, that was just selfish thing to want for me, and yes, same I think when they want to do that. No, evil comes in my phrasing when I think of what he wanted to do to Remus. Of course I think Snape did think about it and a lot, and had a hunch that Remus would be punished much more severely than anybody else, but again we cannot know for sure. Oh and werewolf or not, he is still a fellow student, but I am glad we at least agree that he knew who Remus was. Sorry, not buying that he was thinking that Remus was just be stopped and punished.


> 
> Alla:
>  Mind you he knew that Remus is officially accepted in school, he saw Remus going there with Madame Pomfrey, so he knew adults are aware of whatever is happening in the Shack. 
> 
> Pippin:
> First of all, though canon is maddeningly inconsistent on the technicalities of Lupin's condition, we know from PoA that it  caused him to miss classes and meals. That Lupin's absences were sanctioned by the school would have been clear long before Snape saw Lupin going to the willow. By his own admission, Lupin told all kinds of stories to explain his absences. Snape would soon realize that Lupin was lying and that for some reason the adults were letting him get away with it. 
> 
> I suppose that Snape, like Harry in HPB, was tired of being treated like a conspiracy theorist for voicing the inconvenient truth.

Alla:

Again, my point is that it was none of Snape's business, whether he was tired like Harry or not. His fellow student has a business he has to dissappear to periodically, which is sanctioned by adults quite obviously. Oh and since the comparisons between Harry wondering where he is not supposed to go and Snape constantly come up, may I just say that sure, they may both wonder where they were not supposed to put their noses in, only I am still to see Snape wondering where he was not supposed to in order to save somebody. That to me one of the crucial differences between him and Harry. Does Harry wonder around for selfish reasons of wanting to have fun? Sure he does, so yeah that is a small similarity between him and Snape as a teenager. Only thats not all he does. 

Pippin:   
> Let's not forget Snape was still friends with Lily at this point. She might not feel Lupin was any danger to her, just as Hermione and Ron didn't feel threatened by Draco.  But I doubt Snape shared that opinion. He could have been only thinking of himself, but it's just as likely that he was thinking of her too.

Alla:

Yes, both inferences are equally likely.
 
Pippin: 
> That's not to say Snape didn't expect to win anything for himself or didn't know he was breaking rules. But so did Cedric. He was going to get fame, glory and 500 golden galleons, (and Cho was going to be *so* impressed!).  And he knew full well that no one was going to be playing exactly by the rules, cheating being an historically accepted part of the game.  
> 
> No one in canon acts with purely selfish motives except Voldemort, and no one in canon is ever purely unselfish, not even Harry.
> 
> So I don't buy that Snape had only evil selfish motives for accepting Sirius's challenge, or that Cedric had only pure ones for being in the Tournament. 


Alla:

Yes, no one in canon is purely unselfish even Harry. Of course Harry as adult names his son after Snape, Snape adult torments the innocent child whom he already harmed, so to me at least the adults version of characters are uncomparable. And actually even their teenage versions, besides wondering in forbidden places sometimes.

 But again, no matter how much we are wondering from my original point and comparing Snape's choices with other characters, my point is that to go to Shack was Snape's choice, choice which he was itching to exercise way before Sirius had his "bright" idea to share the information.


Pippin: 
> Second, there seems to be some confusion about what Snape knew and when he knew it. 
> 
> He knew what Lupin was by the time of his conversation about him with Lily, because that was *after* The Prank.  What we see in this scene, IMO, is Snape's debut performance as an actor. The "official" story seems to be that he got into the tunnel on his own, and was rescued by James from something so  dangerous that  he couldn't be told what it was. Snape blurts out angrily that James didn't do anything noble by saving him, that he was trying to keep himself and his friends out of trouble,  but he quickly realizes that he can't tell Lily why he thinks so. <SNIP the rest of the argument>

Alla:

Sorry, I disagree, not with the summary, but with intepretation, to me this conversation shows quite clearly that he knew before the Prank who Lupin was.

> Pippin:
> Every death in the books is by violence, is it not? No, wait, Aragog dies of old age. But for the most part JKR is telling a story about a time when people  really shouldn't expect to die in bed. 
> 
>  My point is the books advocate  that we   all choose how to meet death. We will have to face it sooner or later, and it's better to die for a reason than to run away, or be tricked into facing mortal peril before you are ready. 
> 
> On the first reading, it seems that Snape is terrified out of his wits that Voldemort has decided to kill him. And then you realize, once you see  that he had complete and superb control of himself all along, that he was only afraid for his mission. And that he could have saved himself if he chose. All he had to say was, "Master, Dumbledore was wandless when he died! Ask the Carrows! Ask Draco -- I didn't defeat his wand!"


Alla:

I did not say that Snape was terrified when he dies, I am sure he met death bravely, I am only saying that I find the manner of his death to be the death he seemed to want all those years and was so upset that James dared to take him away from it.

Bite? Shrieking shack? If Nagini at least bite him elsewhere, I could consider some other intepretation, but together it tells me that JKR at least considered the carma here.

IMO,

Alla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jun 17 01:26:12 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 01:26:12 -0000
Subject: Pottermore
Message-ID: <iteafk+4r4v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190558

Potioncat here. Has anyone else seen the hype for Pottermore?
Any ideas about what JKR is up to? 

Here's a link
http://www.pottermore.com/




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Jun 17 02:21:14 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 02:21:14 -0000
Subject: Question about OotP
In-Reply-To: <0416C97D10B549FFA0E525CCD6156E4D@TrekyPC>
Message-ID: <itedmq+rlr2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190559



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Clark" <liz.treky at ...> wrote:
>
> Taya asks:
> I'm just starting to read Order of the Phoenix (currently on ch6) and am 
> curious why Voldemort wanted the Prophecy. Now I think about it, I wonder 
> this from watching the film (where this desire was never explained).
> 
> Was Voldemort simply after finding out the whole Prophecy? Or was it, as 
> suggested, powerful enough to be used for evil (like a weapon).
> 
> Sorry if this has been asked before.
>
Nikkalmati

LV had hear enough of the Prophecy to know the subject posed a danger to him - then when he tries to eliminate Harry he gets torn from his body and reduced to a ghost of sorts.  Not knowing all the Prophecy had turned out very badly.  He had to know if it predicted his future defeat or if it told him how Harry could be defeated.  The normal rules did not apply.  He was pursuing Harry in COS to find out how Harry had beaten him.  When he discovered it was his mother's love, LV was disappointed.  He had to know more just to protect himself.
Question: Did Snape realize and tell LV he only heard part of the Prophecy or did LV figure that out himself?

Nikkalmati




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Fri Jun 17 05:44:13 2011
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (krules)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 05:44:13 -0000
Subject: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <iteafk+4r4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itepjd+dssb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190560


> Potioncat here. Has anyone else seen the hype for Pottermore?
> Any ideas about what JKR is up to? 

Kemper:
Apparently, we find out on the 23rd at noon UK time.

I kind of hope it's not a new book in the Potterverse.






From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Fri Jun 17 06:25:56 2011
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (krules)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 06:25:56 -0000
Subject: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <itepjd+dssb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ites1k+jgc4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190561

> Kemper:
> I kind of hope it's not a new book in the Potterverse.

Kemper again:
Obviously, the domain name, the mention of Harry Potter trademarks/copyrights, and the ghostly Sorting Hat in the identity square on the address bar suggest otherwise.

Maybe it'll be an epistowlary story.  
Did you see what I did there?





From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 00:48:26 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:48:26 -0000
Subject: harry potter in general
Message-ID: <ite88q+svou@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190562

Ok here is the thing, I am a big fan of Harry Potter and lets say I have read the books 6 times and this is my seventh time reading them, now I got to book 5, and I was wondering.
I wished there was at least 1 scene through out the series where Harry and Snape had an agreement moment, you know what I mean?? A moment of understanding although there is nothing they would agree on.
I know for sure that every character was perfectly formed to fit the story line, but for me I can't understand why JK Rowling killed almost everyone Harry cares or would have cared about, like his parents for a start, then Sirius, then Dumbledore, even his Owl, so I know that at some point she had to kill 1 of these characters but why all of them???
What do you think???
Oh and also what do you think the new announcement will be????


thank you
Nerona




From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Fri Jun 17 11:25:38 2011
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:25:38 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <ites1k+jgc4@eGroups.com>
References: <ites1k+jgc4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5FD6243DEFDC4A2EA00B729C9734C005@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 190563

>> Kemper:
>> I kind of hope it's not a new book in the Potterverse.
>
> Kemper again:
> Obviously, the domain name, the mention of Harry Potter 
> trademarks/copyrights, and the ghostly Sorting Hat in the identity square 
> on the address bar suggest otherwise.
>
> Maybe it'll be an epistowlary story.
> Did you see what I did there?
>
Taya responds:
Oooo, not seen this before, kinda exciting there could be something new 
coming out.

The domain, Pottermore, could well indicate a title of sorts, or a series?! 
Which would escape the ties of having to use Harry Potter as the main 
character in any new books IMO. 




From acescorcio at yahoo.com.br  Fri Jun 17 13:42:56 2011
From: acescorcio at yahoo.com.br (Andrea Escorcio)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 06:42:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <iteafk+4r4v@eGroups.com>
References: <iteafk+4r4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <342145.24375.qm@web161507.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190564

> Potioncat here. Has anyone else seen the hype for Pottermore?
> Any ideas about what JKR is up to?
>
> Here's a link
> http://www.pottermore.com/


Hi, it will be an official fan web site from J. K.

Cheers

Andrea



From teebee86627 at yahoo.ca  Fri Jun 17 16:46:31 2011
From: teebee86627 at yahoo.ca (teebee86627)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:46:31 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it83sj+kjee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itg0d7+7i9s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190565

> Pippin:
> I don't know if Voldemort realized that the sword would destroy a
horcrux. But Voldemort knew he still had enemies at the school. He
wouldn't have wanted to leave them a weapon in any case. I'd expect
him to know about the enchantments on the sword, which were not a
> secret (see below). <snip>

Teebee:

At that time the sword would not have been able to destroy a horcrux
so I doubt LV even thought about it. The sword became a horcrux
destroyer only after it got basilisk's venom on it in CoS.





From bart at moosewise.com  Fri Jun 17 23:19:20 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:19:20 -0400
Subject: Voldemort Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <DF68FFD0559B40CABAA1B0331D15D1DD@DG22FG61>
References: <itbv64+eth2@eGroups.com> <0416C97D10B549FFA0E525CCD6156E4D@TrekyPC> <4DFA5608.4050706@moosewise.com> <DF68FFD0559B40CABAA1B0331D15D1DD@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <4DFBE0F8.5040003@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190566

On 6/16/2011 3:20 PM, dorothy dankanyin wrote:
>
> Dorothy:
>     Bart,
>     Not really germane to this subject, but I find it unusual that
> you call Voldemort "Morty".  Most folks who use a nickname for him
> use Voldey. Curiosity, that's all.  :)

     Been doing it here for years. Since JKR depicted Tommy Riddle as 
wanting as unmundane a name as possible, I figured that it made sense to 
give him as mundane a nickname as possible.

     Bart




From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Jun 18 01:20:07 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:20:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] harry potter in general
In-Reply-To: <ite88q+svou@eGroups.com>
References: <ite88q+svou@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4DFBFD47.9000902@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190567

nerona wrote:
> Snape had an agreement moment, you know what I mean?? A moment of understanding although there is nothing they would agree on.

Bart:
     I've mentioned that one thing I wish JKR had done was to put at 
least one Slytherin student who proved to be one of the good guys. Even 
having one in the DA; with the attitude, "That's just school games, this 
is for REAL!"
> I know for sure that every character was perfectly formed to fit the story line, but for me I can't understand why JK Rowling killed almost everyone Harry cares or would have cared about, like his parents for a start, then Sirius, then Dumbledore, even his Owl, so I know that at some point she had to kill 1 of these characters but why all of them???
Bart:
     Most of the Weasley's survive (and face it, the way it was written, 
Fred & George were a single entity with two bodies anyway). Minnie the 
Cat and Hagrid survive. Hermione survives. Actually, the whole group of 
friends who went to the Battle of the Ministry survive. Just to name a few.

     Bart





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Jun 18 04:13:24 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 04:13:24 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itdumo+h2si@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ith8l4+2bul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190568



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> snip>
> 
> > Pippin:
> >  Snape wanted  to find out what Lupin and his friends were  up to.  He suspected it was something very bad. Who but Dark Wizards would want a werewolf for a friend?
> > 
> >   He wanted to prove the Marauders weren't as great as everyone thought. But he didn't think he was going to have to *frame* them. He wouldn't think he needed to. James and Sirius were habitual trouble-makers -- if they were sneaking around, it wasn't to do something *nice*. 
> > 
> >  I am sure Snape did not think much beyond the fact that if he could show that Lupin and his friends were   doing something wrong, they would be stopped and punished. That is what is supposed to happen, isn't it? Is that a selfish, evil thing to want? 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, to me, it is a selfish and evil thing to want. Not about James and Sirius, that was just selfish thing to want for me, and yes, same I think when they want to do that. No, evil comes in my phrasing when I think of what he wanted to do to Remus. Of course I think Snape did think about it and a lot, and had a hunch that Remus would be punished much more severely than anybody else, but again we cannot know for sure. Oh and werewolf or not, he is still a fellow student, but I am glad we at least agree that he knew who Remus was. Sorry, not buying that he was thinking that Remus was just be stopped and punished.
> 
>snip> 
> > 
> Alla:
> 
> Again, my point is that it was none of Snape's business, whether he was tired like Harry or not. His fellow student has a business he has to dissappear to periodically, which is sanctioned by adults quite obviously. Oh and since the comparisons between Harry wondering where he is not supposed to go and Snape constantly come up, may I just say that sure, they may both wonder where they were not supposed to put their noses in, only I am still to see Snape wondering where he was not supposed to in order to save somebody. That to me one of the crucial differences between him and Harry. Does Harry wonder around for selfish reasons of wanting to have fun? Sure he does, so yeah that is a small similarity between him and Snape as a teenager. Only thats not all he does. 
> 
> Pippin:   
> > Let's not forget Snape was still friends with Lily at this point. She might not feel Lupin was any danger to her, just as Hermione and Ron didn't feel threatened by Draco.  But I doubt Snape shared that opinion. He could have been only thinking of himself, but it's just as likely that he was thinking of her too.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, both inferences are equally likely.
>  
snip>
> Pippin

> > So I don't buy that Snape had only evil selfish motives for accepting Sirius's challenge, or that Cedric had only pure ones for being in the Tournament. 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, no one in canon is purely unselfish even Harry. Of course Harry as adult names his son after Snape, Snape adult torments the innocent child whom he already harmed, so to me at least the adults version of characters are uncomparable. And actually even their teenage versions, besides wondering in forbidden places sometimes.
> 
>  But again, no matter how much we are wondering from my original point and comparing Snape's choices with other characters, my point is that to go to Shack was Snape's choice, choice which he was itching to exercise way before Sirius had his "bright" idea to share the information.
> 
> 
>snip

> > Pippin:
> > Every death in the books is by violence, is it not? No, wait, snip>> > On the first reading, it seems that Snape is terrified out of his wits that Voldemort has decided to kill him. And then you realize, once you see  that he had complete and superb control of himself all along, that he was only afraid for his mission. And that he could have saved himself if he chose. All he had to say was, "Master, Dumbledore was wandless when he died! Ask the Carrows! Ask Draco -- I didn't defeat his wand!"
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I did not say that Snape was terrified when he dies, I am sure he met death bravely, I am only saying that I find the manner of his death to be the death he seemed to want all those years and was so upset that James dared to take him away from it.
> 
> Bite? Shrieking shack? If Nagini at least bite him elsewhere, I could consider some other intepretation, but together it tells me that JKR at least considered the carma here.
> 
>
Nikkalmati

Several interesting ideas are presented by this discussion.  I am sure there is a reason why there are three scenes in the Shack.  I agree the Shack is significant as thhe place of Snape's death.  Does Alla suggest he wanted to die there, or is that sarcasm?  Certainly James prevented his death the first time so we see a kind of closing of the circle when it comes back around.  Alla admits the first time Sirius may have wanted Snape to be killed - are you ok with that?  Yet it is not ok if Snape wanted to kill Lupin (which I do not believe BTW). At this point in time Snape is as innocent as Lupin, isn't he?  He is the victim of unprovoked attacks, isn't he?  We also know Lupin and the Marauders were acting in a dangerous manner and breaking the rules set out by DD just for fun.  Shouldn't that have been stopped?   

The second time in the Shack Snape rushes in to "get" Black and Lupin and to save the Trio.  There is a werewolf there and there is a conspiracy, which gets revealed.  This time DD cannot keep Snape from revealing Lupin, but Lupin himself says he must go because he has endangered the students.  Strange, Black broke out of Azkaban to protect Harry - something Snape has been doing all along.

The third time in the Shack Snape does die by a monster, but he sacrifices himself.  He is concerned only for his mission.  "Let me get the boy" he says repeatedly.  As Pippin says, he could have saved himself.  He concealed his role and played his part to the end and then rouses himself to deliver his message with his last breath.  I think it is the arc of the story which demands his death -- not karmic punishment for not being nice to Harry. 

 In truth, I expected Harry to rush in and save Snape like Snape had done before for Harry.  I am not sure why Harry does not.  LV is there with only Snape whom he tried to kill.  Harry has his friends.  Harry thinks he must kill LV and Nagini both.  Here is his chance.  Of course, there is one Horcrux unaccounted for, but does Harry really think he can find it befoe LV takes the school over?  Why does he let LV get the Wand when it could bring LV superior powers?  He doesn't know yet that Snape is not the wand's Master and that he himself is.   It always seemed Jo had built up to a scene in which Harry saves Snape and then just let it go.  Is Harry generous enough to same Snape from LV despite their past history? Yes, I think he is.
> 
> Nikkalmati
>





From daveh47 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 18 06:22:08 2011
From: daveh47 at gmail.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 23:22:08 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] harry potter in general
In-Reply-To: <ite88q+svou@eGroups.com>
References: <ite88q+svou@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4dfc4473.8c75dc0a.3b71.2a55@mx.google.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190569

Nerona:
>I know for sure that every character was perfectly formed to fit the 
>story line, but for me I can't understand why JK Rowling killed 
>almost everyone Harry cares or would have cared about, like his 
>parents for a start, then Sirius, then Dumbledore, even his Owl, so 
>I know that at some point she had to kill 1 of these characters but 
>why all of them???

Dave:
You're certainly not alone in believing JKR went overboard in her 
killings.  Yes, Jo, we get the point -- War is hell.  But she could 
have made that point without killing so many, IMO,  I mean, she 
didn't spare a *single* member of the Mauraders' generation!  And to 
think she almost let Lupin and Tonks live and be happy, then changed 
her mind, just to make some point about Teddy being a "happy" orphan, 
in contrast to Harry.

At least she kept her promise -- She said the last book would be a 
"bloodbath", and that's more or less what we got.

But at least she didn't kill off any of the "Sextet" or Hagrid...

Dave




From mxahid9 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 18 03:00:30 2011
From: mxahid9 at yahoo.com (mxahid9)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 03:00:30 -0000
Subject: IMPORTANT- Please read! It's for a project! :)
Message-ID: <ith4ce+98lm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190570

Hi guys. I am Maria and I am doing an anthropology project for my class. I am actually creating an ethnography which is basically observing a group. I have decided to study you guys for my project!:) I am extremely excited! Basically I'll be observing the posts here and I will also be asking questions, interviewing, surveying, and may be creating polls as well. Please help me with this project. I have to write an 8 page essay on it. I am looking forward to work with you all :)








From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 18 16:47:51 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:47:51 -0000
Subject: harry potter in general - Above and Below
In-Reply-To: <ite88q+svou@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itikrn+pj61@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190571



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nerona" <nerona12 at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> I wished there was at least 1 scene through out the series where Harry and Snape had an agreement moment, you know what I mean?? A moment of understanding ...
>
> ... I can't understand why JK Rowling killed almost everyone Harry cares or would have cared about, like his parents for a start, then Sirius, then Dumbledore, even his Owl, so I know that at some point she had to kill 1 of these characters but why all of them???
> ...
> 
> thank you
> Nerona
>

Steve:

Notice one thing about all the people who died, they all stood above Harry. They were all people Harry looked up to. The people who remained are all people who looked up to Harry. They stood as his equals or, from a certain perspective, his subordinates. 

When the final battle came, JKR wanted Harry isolated, she wanted this to be a battle between Harry and Voldemort with no hero of Harry's able to step in and save the day.

The weight had to fall on Harry's shoulders and his alone. And that meant that everyone who stood above Harry, figuratively speaking, had to be gone. 

Steve/bboyminn





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 18 16:53:41 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:53:41 -0000
Subject: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <iteafk+4r4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itil6l+mlbf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190572



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> Potioncat here. Has anyone else seen the hype for Pottermore?
> Any ideas about what JKR is up to? 
> 
> Here's a link
> http://www.pottermore.com/
>

>From what I read on-line, the website is actually registered by Warner Brothers. That might give us a clue. 

I would suspect, if this was something JKR was doing personally, she or her agents, or publisher would have registered the domain name themselves. But with Warner involved, that makes me wonder just how much personal involvement JKR will actually have. 

Keep in mind, she already has a pretty successful website of her own. 

This could simply be a means by which Warner promotes new special editions of the Potter movies. 

It is Warners involvement that makes the whole thing suspect. 

Steve/bboyminn





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jun 18 17:10:10 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:10:10 -0000
Subject: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <itil6l+mlbf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itim5i+8vgg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190573

Steve:
snip
 
> 
> Keep in mind, she already has a pretty successful website of her own. 
> 
> This could simply be a means by which Warner promotes new special editions of the Potter movies. 
> 
> It is Warners involvement that makes the whole thing suspect. 
> 


Potioncat:
I did hear on NPR that her publisher (Bloomsberry?) has said it isn't a book---which dashed my hopes. Althougt I'd just as soon her next book is NOT in the Potterverse--but I'd read it anyway.

I guess a new website would be a good guess---her old one is fairly shabby looking now. I thought it might be a new amuzement park. (Been there, didn't like the T-shirt)

And, while I'm here, I'll add a bit of forbidden content---I just saw the "final" trailer for TMTMNBN ---and I cried all through it.  Geesh, what a goofball!




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 18 17:54:10 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:54:10 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <ith8l4+2bul@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itioo2+kgp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190574



Nikkalmati

Several interesting ideas are presented by this discussion. I am sure there is
a reason why there are three scenes in the Shack. I agree the Shack is
significant as thhe place of Snape's death. Does Alla suggest he wanted to die
there, or is that sarcasm? Certainly James prevented his death the first time
so we see a kind of closing of the circle when it comes back around.

Alla:

Not at all, I was not being sarcastic at all. I mean, I was inferring stuff of course, but very genuinely and not sarcastically. I mean, it is a fact that Snape is not happy by being saved by James, right? It is a fact that Snape knows (whether you believe as I do that he knew it before or whether he learned that there was a werewolf there when he went) that he could have been killed, yes?

So, if those are facts, I draw the conclusion that Snape would have at least preferred to being dead rather than being saved by James? Now, of course I do not believe that he went there to commit suicide, all I am saying that the thought of being saved by James of all people may have irked him so, that if he were to choose: death or being saved by James, I think he may have chose death IMO. 


Nikkalmati:
 Alla
admits the first time Sirius may have wanted Snape to be killed - are you ok
with that? Yet it is not ok if Snape wanted to kill Lupin (which I do not
believe BTW). At this point in time Snape is as innocent as Lupin, isn't he? He
is the victim of unprovoked attacks, isn't he? <SNIP>


Alla:

Sorry I am so used to the short hand about myself being OK with Snape being killed in Shrieking Shack by now that I did not explain myself properly.  *I* as a reader would have been perfectly ok with fictional character Snape being killed in the Shack, that is absolutely correct. Of course with the disclaimer that then we would have had a different story, but yes, I think that several characters in Potterverse would have had a stronger shot at longer and happier lives had Snape died or never happened. However from that it does not follow that I think that IF Sirius wanted to kill Snape (I did not admit that that is what he did, I only admit that both inferences are equally likely because canon did not give us Sirius mindset' that night), that it makes it ok for the character. In other words, I may feel good if Snape dropped dead much earlier than he did, because then he would have never gave the prophecy to Voldemort and never tormented Harry as he did, but I of course would not think that wanting to kill another human is an Okay thing to do. Same thing that I do not think that if Snape wanted to kill Lupin it was an okay thing to do. I do not see a contradiction here, I just interjected my reaction as reader, thats all.


Do I think Snape as innocent as Lupin at that point in time? No way, again he chose to go there, Lupin did not have such choice IMO.

But do I think that when Snape is *already* in the Shack he is just as *helpless* to change anything in the course of events as Lupin? Of course!


JMO,

Alla




From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Sat Jun 18 21:07:11 2011
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:07:11 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itioo2+kgp3@eGroups.com>
References: <itioo2+kgp3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CFFE9051E09B4969980426C96261100D@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 190575

> Alla:
>
> Not at all, I was not being sarcastic at all. I mean, I was inferring 
> stuff of course, but very genuinely and not sarcastically. I mean, it is a 
> fact that Snape is not happy by being saved by James, right? It is a fact 
> that Snape knows (whether you believe as I do that he knew it before or 
> whether he learned that there was a werewolf there when he went) that he 
> could have been killed, yes?
>
> So, if those are facts, I draw the conclusion that Snape would have at 
> least preferred to being dead rather than being saved by James? Now, of 
> course I do not believe that he went there to commit suicide, all I am 
> saying that the thought of being saved by James of all people may have 
> irked him so, that if he were to choose: death or being saved by James, I 
> think he may have chose death IMO.
>
<snip>

Taya:
I have just had a thought. Snape is a Slytherin... doesn't this mean he 
places a high priority on his own life survival? Surely that would mean that 
he would choose life over death, even if that life was 'given' by James.
I also had the thought that Snape may have been deliberately given a large 
nose... a visual indication of how nosy he can be.




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Sun Jun 19 01:22:18 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley Gardner)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:22:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion:
 Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itioo2+kgp3@eGroups.com>
References: <itioo2+kgp3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4DFD4F4A.2070903@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190576


> Alla:
>
> So, if those are facts, I draw the conclusion that Snape would have at least preferred to being dead rather than being saved by James? Now, of course I do not believe that he went there to commit suicide, all I am saying that the thought of being saved by James of all people may have irked him so, that if he were to choose: death or being saved by James, I think he may have chose death IMO.

Considering this question, I am going to rephrase it:
Since in the wizarding world, when one saves another's life, he is owed 
a life-debt. So then this question becomes: which would Snape have 
chosen- death, or to live while owing James a life-debt?

I think it makes it clearer that Snape would rather have chosen death 
than to owe James any bit of gratitude, and a life-debt is quite a bit 
stronger than that!

Shelley




From greatraven at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 19 01:26:12 2011
From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 01:26:12 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itb00d+m9so@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itjj7k+af59@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190577



Snape as monster? Maybe. We could argue this for ages and I'm not going to. But not towards Dumbledore. Dumbledore was still issuing orders to Snape AFTER  his death, via the portrait - and wasn't it Snape who was shocked at the notion of Dumbledore's willingness to sacrifice a teenage boy to the Cause? He didn't have to like Harry to protect him. He'd kind of thought he WAS protecting him. :-)

--
> 
>

> 
> I am not advocating that books have consistent system of carmic payback actually. I am just saying that I see this situation and several others as carmic payback, thats all. It is just too convenient for me to consider where he died and how he died to be a coincidence and I do not quite buy your reasoning of it. After all if we were to follow that path, then every death in the books would have been by monster's hand. Lupin and Tonks just died, no monsters were waiting for them, no monster was waiting for Dumbledore unless you consider Snape to be one, etc, etc.
> 
> JMO,
> Alla
>




From greatraven at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 19 01:27:25 2011
From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 01:27:25 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itb00d+m9so@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itjj9t+tj3h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190578



Snape as monster? Maybe. We could argue this for ages and I'm not going to. But not towards Dumbledore. Dumbledore was still issuing orders to Snape AFTER  his death, via the portrait - and wasn't it Snape who was shocked at the notion of Dumbledore's willingness to sacrifice a teenage boy to the Cause? He didn't have to like Harry to protect him. He'd kind of thought he WAS protecting him. :-)

--
> 
>

> 
> I am not advocating that books have consistent system of carmic payback actually. I am just saying that I see this situation and several others as carmic payback, thats all. It is just too convenient for me to consider where he died and how he died to be a coincidence and I do not quite buy your reasoning of it. After all if we were to follow that path, then every death in the books would have been by monster's hand. Lupin and Tonks just died, no monsters were waiting for them, no monster was waiting for Dumbledore unless you consider Snape to be one, etc, etc.
> 
> JMO,
> Alla
>




From librasmile at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 00:44:32 2011
From: librasmile at yahoo.com (Librasmile)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 00:44:32 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itdumo+h2si@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itjgpg+7fuo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190579

<snip>
> Pippin:
> <snip> No one in canon acts with purely selfish motives except
Voldemort, and no one in canon is ever purely unselfish, not even
Harry.
> >
> > So I don't buy that Snape had only evil selfish motives for
accepting Sirius's challenge, or that Cedric had only pure ones
for being in the Tournament.
>
> Alla:
> Yes, no one in canon is purely unselfish even Harry. Of course
Harry as adult names his son after Snape, Snape adult torments the
innocent child whom he already harmed, so to me at least the adults
version of characters are uncomparable. And actually even their
teenage versions, besides wondering in forbidden places sometimes.
>
>  But again, no matter how much we are wondering from my original
point and comparing Snape's choices with other characters, my point
is that to go to Shack was Snape's choice, choice which he was
itching to exercise way before Sirius had his "bright" idea to
> share the information. <snip>


Librasmile:
I've lurked for a while and it's been fascinating reading the
discussions of Snape's character, culpability, etc. It's
fascinating also to see how people's biases determine their
conclusions about him. I've read the entire series and having
had time to digest it and read some other essays around the web,
I've come to the conclusion that the morality Rowling portrays
among her characters is seriously skewed and it's endlessly
fascinating to see who picks up on that and who doesn't. =^)



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jun 19 16:55:21 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 19 Jun 2011 16:55:21 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/19/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1308502521.9.62655.m2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190580

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 19, 2011
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2011 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20110619/42bba05e/attachment.html>

From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 14:23:41 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 14:23:41 -0000
Subject: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <iteafk+4r4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itl0pd+f571@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190581

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...>
wrote:
>
> Potioncat here. Has anyone else seen the hype for Pottermore?
> Any ideas about what JKR is up to?
>
> Here's a link
> http://www.pottermore.com/


Nerona:
I really hope it's not another website, the seven books were read
by all the fans and the movies had been watched (the 7th part 2 is
coming up) what will another website do that's so different from the
other ones???

I really hope it's another book it doesn't have to be Harry Potter,
whatever she writes I know fans will read it. I don't know, I'm
praying it's just another book. No matter what we say we can't know
anything before 3 days and 20 hours and so, pray with me guys.




From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 14:17:59 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 14:17:59 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below
In-Reply-To: <itikrn+pj61@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itl0en+33do@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190582

> Steve:
> Notice one thing about all the people who died, they all stood
above Harry. They were all people Harry looked up to. The people
who remained are all people who looked up to Harry. They stood as
his equals or, from a certain perspective, his subordinates.
>
> When the final battle came, JKR wanted Harry isolated, she wanted
this to be a battle between Harry and Voldemort with no hero of
Harry's able to step in and save the day.
>
> The weight had to fall on Harry's shoulders and his alone. And
that meant that everyone who stood above Harry, figuratively
> speaking, had to be gone.


Nerona:
That's a good point, now I can see it more clearly, but hasn't she
put at least 1 scene of understanding between Harry and Snape, it
illogic for Harry to hate Snape all these years, and Snape hating
him back and then because of a memory Harry names his own son after
him.

Now for me since book 5 I started suspecting that Snape is doing
something good although it wasn't revealed until book 7 (at the
end) but why not have 1 single scene that contains an agreement or
understanding, you know what I mean? I wish I read 1 scene with
Harry and Snape doing something together.




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Jun 19 18:47:12 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 11:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS169D63D652D848B5096FEEB6660@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <74802.47425.qm@web113903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190583

> Sally:
> <snip> In reading the last book, I thought that Griphook the
goblin took the sword when they were in Gringott's. But then at
the end, Neville takes it from the sorting hat to kill Nagini.
Are there two different swords? Or did I miss something important
> earlier in the book? <snip>

> Valy:
> If I remember well, "only a true Gryffindor" can take the sword
out of the Sorting Hat, Harry did it too in CoS. I guess the
Sorting Hat is a sort of "portkey"; the sword is laying around
somewhere, but only a true Gryffindor can find it from the Sorting
> hat. <snip>
>
> Argh... I'll leave it to others... lol


June
No, Valy, you did well on your own. That is a very good explanation.
We did learn that only a true Gryffindor can pull the sword out of
the sorting hat and that is exactly what happened.









From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Jun 19 19:15:02 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:15:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <it3g03+mqqc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <426697.43597.qm@web113919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190584

> Sally wrote:
> <snip> Are there two different swords? Or did I miss something
important earlier in the book? If anyone can help me out here, I'd
> appreciate it.

> Potioncat:
> <snip> Yes, there were two swords. I have to admit it, but I've
forgotten which was which. The real sword was placed in the lake by
Snape, and taken out by Ron (or was it Harry?) And there was a fake
sword in Bellatrix's vault. But right now I've forgotten what
> happened to the real sword between the lake and the Sorting Hat.


June:
It was Harry that took the sword from the lake and Ron that took
Harry from the lake lol. Harry, Ron and Hermione had the sword
when the snatchers took them to the Malfoys and Bellatrix took it
back and tortured Hermione because she thought they had gotten
into her vault at Gringotts and was worried that the sword wasn't
the only thing they had taken (the goblet was also being kept in
her vault and that is why they later went to her vault). The sword
was then pulled out of the sorting hat by Neville durring the
battle and used by Neville to kill Nagini.









From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Jun 19 19:41:50 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:41:50 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itioo2+kgp3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itljdu+a596@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190585



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sorry I am so used to the short hand about myself being OK with Snape being killed in Shrieking Shack by now that I did not explain myself properly.  *I* as a reader would have been perfectly ok with fictional character Snape being killed in the Shack, that is absolutely correct. Of course with the disclaimer that then we would have had a different story, but yes, I think that several characters in Potterverse would have had a stronger shot at longer and happier lives had Snape died or never happened. However from that it does not follow that I think that IF Sirius wanted to kill Snape (I did not admit that that is what he did, I only admit that both inferences are equally likely because canon did not give us Sirius mindset' that night), that it makes it ok for the character. In other words, I may feel good if Snape dropped dead much earlier than he did, because then he would have never gave the prophecy to Voldemort and never tormented Harry as he did, but I of course would not think that wanting to kill another human is an Okay thing to do. Same thing that I do not think that if Snape wanted to kill Lupin it was an okay thing to do. I do not see a contradiction here, I just interjected my reaction as reader, thats all.
> 
> 
Nikkalmati

Ok lets speculate.  If Snape was killed in the Shack, was James killed also?  That's one possibility.  If just Snape was killed, I presume Lupin would have been exposed and possibly killed also, but this time by the Wizarding judicial system.  Would DD have remained at Hogwarts?  Would there have been a Prophecy?  It looks like DD would have been humiliated at the least.  There would have been no Order of the Phoenix and no stopping Voldemort. I doubt anyone would have lived a longer or a happier life. IMHO
 
Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sun Jun 19 19:55:23 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:55:23 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <4DFD4F4A.2070903@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <itlk7b+fcrq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190586



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shelley Gardner <k12listmomma at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Alla:
> >
> > So, if those are facts, I draw the conclusion that Snape would have at least preferred to being dead rather than being saved by James? Now, of course I do not believe that he went there to commit suicide, all I am saying that the thought of being saved by James of all people may have irked him so, that if he were to choose: death or being saved by James, I think he may have chose death IMO.
> 
Shelly

> Considering this question, I am going to rephrase it:
> Since in the wizarding world, when one saves another's life, he is owed 
> a life-debt. So then this question becomes: which would Snape have 
> chosen- death, or to live while owing James a life-debt?
> 
> I think it makes it clearer that Snape would rather have chosen death 
> than to owe James any bit of gratitude, and a life-debt is quite a bit 
> stronger than that!

Nikkalmati

I suspect with a cool head Snape would choose to live however embarassing the situation was.

  Life debts are puzzling things.  We are never given any hint that Snape ows a lift debt to James and JKR said Ginny did not own one to Harry (which I see as a similar situation to James/Snape).  The only life debt we know about is Wormtail to Harry.  It does not prevent Wormtail from tying Harry up at the graveyard or going down to fetch Harry at the Malfoy's house.  I guess it does give Wormtail a moment's pause, which is enough to cause the silver hand to kill him.  I'm not sure if the life debt caused Wormtail's death or not.  
> 
Nikkalmati
>





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Jun 19 19:51:50 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:51:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IMPORTANT- Please read! It's for a project! :)
In-Reply-To: <ith4ce+98lm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <339192.21408.qm@web113911.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190587

> Maria:
> Hi guys. I am Maria and I am doing an anthropology project for my
class. I am actually creating an ethnography which is basically
observing a group. I have decided to study you guys for my project!:)
I am extremely excited! Basically I'll be observing the posts here
and I will also be asking questions, interviewing, surveying, and may
be creating polls as well. Please help me with this project. I have
to write an 8 page essay on it. I am looking forward to work with you
> all :)


June:
That is great Maria. I am Roberta (June on here, it's my middle name)
and I am glad to meet you and will be happy to help you in any way I
can. I like everyone else on here am a die hard Harry Potter fan and
love to talk about the books and movies so if ever you want to chew
my ear about HP feel free to contace me. Good luck with your project.












From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sun Jun 19 19:37:47 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <ites1k+jgc4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <149495.28282.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190588

> Kemper:
> I kind of hope it's not a new book in the Potterverse.
>
> Obviously, the domain name, the mention of Harry Potter
> trademarks/copyrights, and the ghostly Sorting Hat in the
> identity square on the address bar suggest otherwise.


June:
I read something on line that said it was a website with
games and you can buy the ebooks and other stuff. Might be
interesting but I was hoping it would be another book.







From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Sun Jun 19 21:57:59 2011
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 22:57:59 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <149495.28282.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <149495.28282.qm@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FF6FEEEBC3644D79A28A9036F2D2584F@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 190589

> June:
> I read something on line that said it was a website with 
> games and you can buy the ebooks and other stuff. Might be 
> interesting but I was hoping it would be another book.

Taya:
ebooks? Didn't think JKR was allowing these? 
I guess we'll just have to wait for the announcement ... I hate waiting :( !



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 20 00:08:11 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 00:08:11 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below
In-Reply-To: <itl0en+33do@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itm31b+el68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190590



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nerona" <nerona12 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Steve:
> > Notice one thing about all the people who died, they all stood
> above Harry. They were all people Harry looked up to. The people
> who remained are all people who looked up to Harry. They stood as
> his equals or, from a certain perspective, his subordinates.
> >
> > When the final battle came, JKR wanted Harry isolated, she wanted
> this to be a battle between Harry and Voldemort with no hero of
> Harry's able to step in and save the day.
> >
> > The weight had to fall on Harry's shoulders and his alone. And
> that meant that everyone who stood above Harry, figuratively
> > speaking, had to be gone.
> 
> 
> Nerona:
> That's a good point, now I can see it more clearly, but hasn't she
> put at least 1 scene of understanding between Harry and Snape, it
> illogic for Harry to hate Snape all these years, and Snape hating
> him back and then because of a memory Harry names his own son after
> him.
> 
> ...
>

Steve:

But isn't that how life is? Harry deeply regreted all the lost opportunities he had with Dumbledore once Dumbledore was gone.

You never miss (or appreciate) the water until the well runs dry. 

The same it true of Snape, in hindsight, Harry realized he never got the moment of recognition and resolution with Snape. They never sat down and said, this is this, and this is why it is. But neither did he get that moment of quiet mutual reflection with Dumbledore, or Lupin or Fred or Tonks or any of the other people who dies.

Yes, in movies and books, conflict is frequently tied up in neat heartwarming resolution. But life, real life, is rarely that way. Real life is filled with regret and lost moments, and oddly, while alive, both parties actively resist that moment of resolution and quiet mutual reflection - parents and children, husbands and wives, brother and sisters, best friends, etc.... 

We never regret the thing said and done, as much as we regret the things left unsaid and undone. 

I think JRK intentionally left us with that sense of unresolved and missed opportunity. 

No, Snape and Harry didn't get to have their moment, but it is enough that finally, at last, Harry understands Snape and understands what he did for the cause. And I think naming his son after Snape, was a tribute to that understanding. By naming his some, the memory of Snape and his sacrifice live on. 

And relative to the other people who died, Harry didn't get to have his moment with Sirius or Lupin or Dumbledore or anyone else. 

That's the way life is - opportunities lost. 

Steve/bboyminn





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 20 00:19:30 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 00:19:30 -0000
Subject: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <426697.43597.qm@web113919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <itm3mi+lpa9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190591



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
...
> 
> 
> June:
> It was Harry that took the sword from the lake and Ron that took
> Harry from the lake lol. Harry, Ron and Hermione had the sword
> when the snatchers took them to the Malfoys ... The sword
> was then pulled out of the sorting hat by Neville during the
> battle and used by Neville to kill Nagini.
>

Steve:

Very close but not quite. 

Ron pulled Harry AND the Sword from the Lake. That is why Harry thought it should be Ron who used the Sword on the Locket.

Yes, they had the sword when they were captured and brought to Malfoy Manor. But, when they escaped, the Sword was in the possession of Griphook. At Shell Cottage, Harry took the Sword from Griphook. They brought the Sword with when they entered Gringotts. But, while at Gringotts, Griphook took the Sword and scampered with it. From that point on Griphook, or some other Goblin, had the Sword, up until Neville retrieves if from the Sorting Hat. 

Steve/bboyminn







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun 20 14:28:27 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:28:27 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itlk7b+fcrq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itnleb+l7a0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190592


> > > Alla:
> > >
> > > So, if those are facts, I draw the conclusion that Snape would have at least preferred to being dead rather than being saved by James? Now, of course I do not believe that he went there to commit suicide, all I am saying that the thought of being saved by James of all people may have irked him so, that if he were to choose: death or being saved by James, I think he may have chose death IMO.
> > 
> Shelly
> 
> > Considering this question, I am going to rephrase it:
> > Since in the wizarding world, when one saves another's life, he is owed 
> > a life-debt. So then this question becomes: which would Snape have 
> > chosen- death, or to live while owing James a life-debt?
> > 
> > I think it makes it clearer that Snape would rather have chosen death 
> > than to owe James any bit of gratitude, and a life-debt is quite a bit 
> > stronger than that!
> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> I suspect with a cool head Snape would choose to live however embarassing the situation was.

Pippin:
Snape never complains about having been rescued. His beef was not that James had saved him but that James was being given credit for it as a hero. From Snape's point of view it would be as if Draco  had pulled Harry from the flames (rather than vice versa), and everyone praised Draco while overlooking the fact that  Draco and his friends had ambushed Harry and started the fire. 


Nikkalmati: 
>   Life debts are puzzling things.  We are never given any hint that Snape ows a lift debt to James and JKR said Ginny did not own one to Harry (which I see as a similar situation to James/Snape).  The only life debt we know about is Wormtail to Harry.  It does not prevent Wormtail from tying Harry up at the graveyard or going down to fetch Harry at the Malfoy's house.  I guess it does give Wormtail a moment's pause, which is enough to cause the silver hand to kill him.  I'm not sure if the life debt caused Wormtail's death or not.  

Pippin:
I think the magic follows the psychology and not vice versa. IMO, the magical debt doesn't exist until both sides acknowledge it. Wormtail immediately thanked Harry for saving him, but Harry despised his gratitude and did not acknowledge the debt  until DH. So Wormtail, although he obviously did not feel good about working against Harry, was not prevented from doing so. 

We don't know how James felt about saving Snape, but  Snape did not feel indebted to James for his rescue, therefore there was no magical bond to prevent him from harming James. 

Ginny, OTOH, already would have done anything for Harry, and he for her, so there wasn't anything for the life-debt magic to do that love magic wasn't doing already :)


Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun 20 17:07:07 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:07:07 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below
In-Reply-To: <itl0en+33do@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itnunr+4j1r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190593


> Nerona:
> That's a good point, now I can see it more clearly, but hasn't she
> put at least 1 scene of understanding between Harry and Snape, it
> illogic for Harry to hate Snape all these years, and Snape hating
> him back and then because of a memory Harry names his own son after
> him.

Pippin:
It's interesting that Harry decides he's never going to forgive Snape at about the same time that Draco decides he's going to be a killer. They both find they have misunderstood themselves and their capabilities. 

In fact Harry was never  one to sustain a grudge, and had always been willing to forgive as soon as the offensive behavior showed any sign of being under control.  

Snape had to remain unreconciled for Harry to understand, finally, what Dumbledore meant by saying that Snape's wounds were too deep for the healing. Harry's hatred was cured by understanding, but no one could  force Snape to an understanding that would have been too painful for him to endure. 

Dave:
You're certainly not alone in believing JKR went overboard in her
killings. Yes, Jo, we get the point -- War is hell. But she could
have made that point without killing so many, IMO, I mean, she
didn't spare a *single* member of the Mauraders' generation!

Pippin:
Then maybe that wasn't the point she was making :)

The books show us  an  irreparable and exhausting waste of life,  even in a just and necessary war against an implacable destroyer.  We have to understand that to understand why Harry and Dumbledore  turned away  from the power to remake the WW by force. 


Bart:
I've mentioned that one thing I wish JKR had done was to put at
least one Slytherin student who proved to be one of the good guys. Even
having one in the DA; with the attitude, "That's just school games, this
is for REAL!"

Pippin:
Both Nerona and Bart tie the  number of deaths in the story  to an unsatisfactory resolution of the Slytherin/Snape  arc. We are primed to accept that great victories are won  by great sacrifice. It is not so comforting to be told that a fragile, baby-step victory can cost just as much. But in real life, that may be the only kind we can get. 

The exclusion of the Slytherins  from the DA and their expulsion before the final battle mirrors the exclusion of the students themselves from meaningful training in DADA. Harry's friends are suspected of allegiance to a corrupt leader and they turn the same suspicion on Slytherin House. Thy were seen as Other and excluded, so they projected Otherness on a group even more marginal than themselves.

 But Slytherins, ever resourceful, found their own way to play a part in the defeat of Voldemort, just as the DA did.  And Harry recognizes that. Is there any doubt that if danger threatened Hogwarts again, he would expect all the Houses to stand against it as Slughorn, Snape and Regulus did? 

We may not be  sure, as the book ends, that all is as well as Harry thinks it is. If his belief is based in denial and complacency, then, imo, his victory will be short-lived. 

 If it is based in constant vigilance and a willingness to address the problems that led to Voldemort's rise in the first place, then it may endure. 
 

Pippin








From fenneyml at gmail.com  Mon Jun 20 15:08:01 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:08:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter
 Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itnleb+l7a0@eGroups.com>
References: <itlk7b+fcrq@eGroups.com>
	<itnleb+l7a0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik_AkQnWuqgQfek1iuDkX+ZGrLBcA@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190594

> > Pippin:
> > Snape never complains about having been rescued. His beef was not that
> James had saved him but that James was being given credit for it as a hero.
> From Snape's point of view it would be as if Draco > had pulled Harry from
> the flames (rather than vice versa), and everyone praised Draco while
> overlooking the fact that Draco and his friends had ambushed Harry and
> started the fire.
>
> >Nikkalmati:
> > Life debts are puzzling things. We are never given any hint that Snape
> ows a lift debt to James


Margie:
Doesn't Dumbledore say explicitly that Snape owes a life debt to James when
he first mentions James saving Snape?  I don't have the book handy but
that's how I remember it.

I agree with Pippin that Snape's greatest objection was that James was given
credit for it as though he did it for a noble reason when, to Snape, his
motivations were 100% selfish.

As to Snape, I would like to make an observation that hasn't been mentioned
before in this thread.  I don't think that there is any conflict between the
way that Snape treated Harry on a day-to-day basis and his protection of
Harry.  I don't think that Snape hated Harry (although he certainly didn't
like him) and I don't think he saw his treatment of Harry as being abusive
or harassing.  If you asked Snape about it, I think he would say that he was
doing it for the boys own good because he was pampered and over-praised and
spoiled by other people so he needed to have his head deflated some in order
to have a more realistic view of himself.  Snape was a born Geek of all
geeks in a world that didn't value geekiness or oily hair and he never
really understood or stopping resenting the fact that his strengths were not
what was valued in the WW and were not what made you popular or got you the
girl.   That whole scenario made up the glasses through which Snape saw
everything, including Harry.

I don't agree with Snape and certainly see his treatment of Harry as abusive
but I don't think he saw it that way himself at all.

I also have to say that I think the idea that Sirius was trying to kill
Snape when he told him about the Shrieking Shack is a major stretch.  Sirius
was being a typical teenager, except even more so because of his personality
- impulsive, given to strong emotion in the moment, giving no thought to
consequences - when he told that to Snape.  If Sirius had thought it through
to an end consequence - Snape's death - even momentarily, he would have also
grasped the consequences to his friends and I don't believe he hated Snape
more than he cared about his friends.  Snape and Sirius detested each other
but I honestly don't think that either of them had it in them to kill
someone who wasn't trying to kill them or someone dear to them.

The whole Sirius - Snape - James thing was a teenage event involving
immature boys.  As such I think the use of words like "evil" for the boys
themselves is extreme, as it would be if applied to the teenage Dumbledore.
Heaven knows I would hate to be judged by what I did or was capable of doing
when I was a teenager!   Misguided, emotional, unseeing, immature,
impulsive, and more I would agree with but evil?

JMO,

Margie





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Mon Jun 20 16:07:56 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:07:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question from a new member
In-Reply-To: <itm3mi+lpa9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <724859.10276.qm@web113908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190595

> Steve:
> <snip> Ron pulled Harry AND the Sword from the Lake. That is
why Harry thought it should be Ron who used the Sword on the
> Locket.
>
> Yes, they had the sword when they were captured and brought to
Malfoy Manor. But, when they escaped, the Sword was in the
possession of Griphook. At Shell Cottage, Harry took the Sword
> from Griphook. They brought the Sword with when they entered
Gringotts. But, while at Gringotts, Griphook took the Sword and
> scampered with it. From that point on Griphook, or some other
Goblin, had the Sword, up until Neville retrieves if from the
> Sorting Hat.


June:
Oh, yes, that is right Steve. I had forgotten about that. OMG,
you are as big a Harry Potter fanatic as I am, LOL. TY for
reminding me about that.






From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Jun 21 01:29:01 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 01:29:01 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itjgpg+7fuo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itos4t+at73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190596



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Librasmile" <librasmile at ...> wrote:
>
>snip.> 
> 
> Librasmile:
> I've lurked for a while and it's been fascinating reading the
> discussions of Snape's character, culpability, etc. It's
> fascinating also to see how people's biases determine their
> conclusions about him. I've read the entire series and having
> had time to digest it and read some other essays around the web,
> I've come to the conclusion that the morality Rowling portrays
> among her characters is seriously skewed and it's endlessly
> fascinating to see who picks up on that and who doesn't. =^)
>

Nikkalmati

We've noticed.  However in what direction?  Do tell how you see it.

Nikkalmati





From BeckstersLaboratory at Gmail.com  Tue Jun 21 17:58:44 2011
From: BeckstersLaboratory at Gmail.com (Becca)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 17:58:44 -0000
Subject: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <FF6FEEEBC3644D79A28A9036F2D2584F@TrekyPC>
Message-ID: <itqm4k+mdam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190597

> > June:
> > I read something on line that said it was a website with
> > games and you can buy the ebooks and other stuff. Might be
> > interesting but I was hoping it would be another book.
>
> Taya:
> ebooks? Didn't think JKR was allowing these?
> I guess we'll just have to wait for the announcement ... I hate
> waiting :( !


Beckatrix:
I hope it's more than that.  Maybe a fusion of the various things
people have been coming up with.  One thing I'm 99.9% sure of, is
that it's a website.  People have been conjecturing that it's going
to be a book or theme park, etc, but the YouTube page is going to
make the announcement.  It's not like they'll have an announcement
of an announcement.  So if it is eBooks, I think it's more than that
because why create a site just to sell eBooks?  They can do that on
Amazon.

I think it's an interactive encyclopedia at its core.

Beckatrix



From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Tue Jun 21 20:52:03 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:52:03 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - and a bit of karma
In-Reply-To: <itl0en+33do@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itr09j+njgq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190598

Geoff:
Having been away on holiday in "terra non-computera", I'm a bit slow in 
catching up on recent topics; indeed, someone may have already voiced 
some of these opinions and I've missed them.

In message 190571, Steve wrote:

"Notice one thing about all the people who died, they all stood above Harry. They
were all people Harry looked up to. The people who remained are all people who
looked up to Harry. They stood as his equals or, from a certain perspective, his
subordinates."

I'm sorry but I disagree with this conclusion. I would accept that there are 
some of those who died to whom Harry would look up but there are some 
for whom I would say the answer was "No". There are some whom Harry 
would certainly look on as equals or friends but I doubt that he would 
include Cedric, Colin Creevey or Fred as role models to follow."

On the subject of Cedric, in post 190542, Alla wrote:

"Except to me the HUGE difference is that Cedric did not have any choice in the 
matter, not a real choice. Everything was prearranged, so of course anybody who 
would have taken the cup would have suffered the same fate."

I do not think that Voldemort expected anyone other than Harry to take the 
cup. If his plans worked out through Barty Crouch had gone correctly, there 
would only be Harry. As someone pointed out, Harry's generosity in making 
Cedric share in the triumph unwittingly sealed his fate.

I believe that Cedric, to an extent, trod that path because of other demands  
and I see an interesting parallel between him and Draco. They are both young 
men who have been subjected to parental pressure. Amos Diggory is very 
anxious that his son should be better than the others and get the best 
results and is, on at least one occasion, rather disparaging about Harry's  
achievements and on occasions, I felt that Cedric was merely keeping 
going to avoid parental disapproval or disappointment. In a kind of 
mirror image scenario, Draco is in a similar position, certainly from HBP 
onward. He is under pressure to kill Dumbledore, under pressure from 
Lucius to identify Harry so that the family can benefit.

If the situations had given each a completely free choice of the way to go,
what might have happened? We know that Draco was wavering on the Tower 
and, given a couple of minutes more might well have accepted Dumbledore's 
offer and maybe Cedric might have insisted on Harry going alone.

Perhaps I should say that, as a Christian, I do not believe in karma; these were 
not predestined choices (except for JKR's story line needs of course!).









From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Jun 21 22:40:51 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley Gardner)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:40:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <itqm4k+mdam@eGroups.com>
References: <itqm4k+mdam@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4E011DF3.1000705@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190599


> Beckatrix:
>
> I think it's an interactive encyclopedia at its core.

That would make the most sense! When she sued that fan for attempting to 
publish his compilation, she had said that she had plans for a 
comprehensive work of her own, so maybe this is finally it. Frankly, I 
never understood her complaint- because anything she published would 
have backstory of the characters and facts galore that never got worked 
into the books (something no fan could EVER replicate), and I hope 
that's what she will do here. She could clarify scenes like "The Prank" 
that the fans most often debate over and add history of the Wizarding 
World that partly made it into the quizzes on the first website.

So, I hope an interactive encyclopedia is what it is! :-)

Shelley



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jun 21 23:20:06 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 23:20:06 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itnleb+l7a0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itr8v6+9vfs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190600


> 
> Pippin:
> Snape never complains about having been rescued. His beef was not that James had saved him but that James was being given credit for it as a hero. From Snape's point of view it would be as if Draco  had pulled Harry from the flames (rather than vice versa), and everyone praised Draco while overlooking the fact that  Draco and his friends had ambushed Harry and started the fire.

Potioncat:
Snape's claim that James was just saving his own skin may be right, and if not, I can at least see why he thinks so. Sirius sets up the joke; James rescues Severus. It was win-win for Marauders. Not only was Snape endangered and frightened, but James got to be a hero. The clincher is that the pranks and bullying didn't stop. You would think, if James was really interested in saving Severus he would also change the way he treated him. James  may only have been trying to save Remus, or only trying to protect his avenue for fun. But it really doesn't seem that he cared at all about Severus, or even thought about how the Marauders were treating other people.


At one time, most of us thought that The Prank happened after SWM, but now we know it was the other way around. What I find interesting about SWM now is how Sirius and Remus interact. Sirius had set up a prank that almost destroyed Remus, and Sirius is still something of a jerk to his "friend." (Remus wanted help  studying and Sirius bragged that he didn't need to study.) Years later all Sirius can say is that Snape deserved it---still no acknowledgement of what the prank could have cost Lupin.

So I'm not a Sirius fan---but I have to admit,this time, reading PoA--when Sirius offerd to have Harry live with him---well, I was as thrilled and happy as Harry at the thought.

But only briefly.

Potioncat







From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 05:54:26 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 05:54:26 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - SNAPE
In-Reply-To: <itr09j+njgq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <its02i+jveh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190601



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> ...
> 
> In message 190571, Steve wrote:
> 
> "Notice one thing about all the people who died, they all stood
> above Harry. They were all people Harry looked up to. The people
> who remained are all people who looked up to Harry. They stood 
> as his equals or, from a certain perspective, his subordinates."
> 
> I'm sorry but I disagree with this conclusion. .... There are 
> some whom Harry would certainly look on as equals or friends ...
> 
> ...

Steve:

Yes, but we have to look at the larger context of the discussion and the question. The central question is about Harry and Snape not having their moment of mutual understanding before Snape died.

So, the discussion is not about every person who ever died ever. It is about the death of key characters, those who had an important and significant relationship with Harry. And about the moments and opportunities lost, and how JKR is weaving that into the larger story. 

Sirius and Harry never really got to know each other. Harry imagined they would have years together to talk about his father and mother, and so those moments of understanding never came between them.

The same with Dumbledore, after Dumbledore's death Harry realize all the lost moments when he could have learned more about Dumbledore as a person. The same with Tonks and Lupin, these are moments lost. 

The presents or absents of Colin Creevy doesn't matter. He was never going to be able to help Harry, or advise him, or step in at the last moment and save Harry. His death is not the death of a significant character, a sympathetic character yes, but not a significant one. 

The key characters who died were all people who stood above Harry. They were all people to whom Harry could turn in time of trouble. But, everyone who stood above Harry to which he could have turned is gone, and that is exactly how JKR planned it.

When the final battle came, Harry had to stand alone at the top of the heap, with no one above him to come to his aid. All the weight had to fall on Harry, as it certainly did.

Relative to Snape, I think it played out just as JKR planned it. She did not want Harry and Snape to have that moment of mutual understanding. She did not really want Harry to know the extent to which Snape was on the good side. If he had know, he would have acted differently, he would have tried to appeal to Snape for help, and that was help that just could not be given. 

Steve/bboyminn





From fenneyml at gmail.com  Wed Jun 22 12:44:14 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 08:44:14 -0400
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - SNAPE
In-Reply-To: <its02i+jveh@eGroups.com>
References: <itr09j+njgq@eGroups.com>
	<its02i+jveh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikFWn15vRM5CsQNdmh3YxeH7wVK8g@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190602

> > Steve:
>
> > The key characters who died were all people who stood above Harry. They
> were all people to whom Harry could turn in time of trouble. But, everyone
> who stood above Harry to which he could have
> > turned is gone, and that is exactly how JKR planned it.
>
> When the final battle came, Harry had to stand alone at the top of the
> heap, with no one above him to come to his aid. All the weight had to fall
> on Harry, as it certainly did.
>

Bookcrazzzy:

What about McGonagall, Arthur and Molly Weasley, Hagrid?  JKR was able to
isolate Harry physically and, more importantly, emotionally (by giving him
the understanding that he had to die) at the right moment in time so that
all the weight fell on Harry.  I don't think that everyone above Harry had
to or did die in order for that to happen.

Steve:
> Relative to Snape, I think it played out just as JKR planned it. She did
not want Harry and Snape to have that moment of mutual understanding. She
did not really want Harry to know the extent to which
> Snape was on the good side. If he had know, he would have acted
differently, he would have tried to appeal to Snape for help, and that was
help that just could not be given.

Bookcrazzzy:

I agree.  If Harry and Snape were to have that moment of mutual
understanding, it would have had to be after the battle with Snape surviving
and that simply couldn't be given the storyline and Snape's multiple pivotal
roles.






From librasmile at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 16:59:39 2011
From: librasmile at yahoo.com (Librasmile)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:59:39 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itos4t+at73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itt71r+44qa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190603

> > Librasmile:
> > I've lurked for a while and it's been fascinating reading the
> > discussions of Snape's character, culpability, etc. It's
> > fascinating also to see how people's biases determine their
> > conclusions about him. I've read the entire series and having
> > had time to digest it and read some other essays around the web,
> > I've come to the conclusion that the morality Rowling portrays
> > among her characters is seriously skewed and it's endlessly
> > fascinating to see who picks up on that and who doesn't. =^)

> Nikkalmati
> We've noticed.  However in what direction?  Do tell how you see it.

Librasmile:
I don't want to get into a long back and forth because clearly folks are just taking their position and sticking to it. But I'm a complete absolute Snape fan. I don't see him as flawless. But it still puzzles me that people can see him being harassed for years and then NOT see that incident in the Shack as an attempt to kill him. If there wasn't a werewolf involved AND if Sirius and crew hadn't been harassing him for YEARS with NO restraint from school authority, then yes I would say it was just an impulsive act. But from where I'm sitting hostile intent had been established for years before this latest incident and that hostility naturally leads to an attempt to kill Severus. As far as I'm concerned Sirius intended to kill, didn't give a rat's ass what would have happened to Lupin ( until after the fact when he realized that LUPIN could have been killed ), and James was only saving the Marauders' a**'s when he saved Snape. But people are going to believe what they want to believe. I just know if I were the victim I wouldn't want them on the jury because they'd let my accuser go and then where do I go for help? Who's going to keep me safe? Who's got enough power to stop 2 rich and powerful boys who damn near got away with my murder once before from trying it again. Oh wait, there's this new group forming and Malfoy is in it. Surely a Malfoy can counter a Black...

But no, no, let's all just go with the thought of Severus being thoughtlessly evil. Cause he'll be so much safer once he's out of school...of course he will be...



From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Wed Jun 22 17:29:39 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:29:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - SNAPE
In-Reply-To: <its02i+jveh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <347581.55546.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190604

<snip>
> Steve:
> Yes, but we have to look at the larger context of the discussion
and the question. The central question is about Harry and Snape not
> having their moment of mutual understanding before Snape died.

> So, the discussion is not about every person who ever died ever.
It is about the death of key characters, those who had an important
and significant relationship with Harry. And about the moments and
opportunities lost, and how JKR is weaving that into the larger
> story. <snip>

> Relative to Snape, I think it played out just as JKR planned it.
She did not want Harry and Snape to have that moment of mutual
> understanding. <snip>


June:
I will start off by saying that Steve is correct in my opinion
although it is sad. I have something that I would have liked to
have seen though and I don't know if anyone else would agree or
think I'm out of my tree, lol. After the scene of the Dursleys'
departure, it was obvious that Dudley was not acting all those
years out of a hatred for Harry and was now growing up. It would
have been nice to see Harry and Dudley reunite and become friends.
I think that they two developed an understanding for each other
in that scene and I picture them (not as the best of friends) but
having a bit of a relationship as adults.








From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Jun 22 20:42:00 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 20:42:00 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general
In-Reply-To: <its02i+jveh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ittk2o+i15b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190605

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123@> wrote:

> > Geoff:

> > In message 190571, Steve wrote:
 
> > "Notice one thing about all the people who died, they all stood
> > above Harry. They were all people Harry looked up to. The people
> > who remained are all people who looked up to Harry. They stood 
> > as his equals or, from a certain perspective, his subordinates."

> > I'm sorry but I disagree with this conclusion. .... There are 
> > some whom Harry would certainly look on as equals or friends ...

> Steve:
> 
> Yes, but we have to look at the larger context of the discussion and the question. The central question is about Harry and Snape not having their moment of mutual understanding before Snape died.
> 
> So, the discussion is not about every person who ever died ever. It is about the death of key characters, those who had an important and significant relationship with Harry. 

Geoff:
Forgive me Steve, if I sound argumentative but, you have introduced 
contradictory ideas into your post.

You wrote: "Notice one thing about all the people who died... They were 
all people Harry looked up to."

and then you also wrote: "the discussion is not about every person who 
ever died ever."

You can't have both those propositions. You suggestion about "all the people"
was the reason for my post. If you have written "many of the people", I would 
have accepted that.

Harry made many connections to the people around him: friends, enemies, 
equals, those he held as guides or role models, those who looked up to him 
whether he wanted it or not. I agree with your comment about the absence or 
otherwise of Colin Creevey; I included him to make a reasonable list of those 
whom Harry did not necessarily look up to.

Some of those I mentioned whom you dismissed as not being looked up to 
came in my list. Just to take the two I named (other than CC). Cedric was not 
really a friend but he was a competitor and provided opportunities for Harry 
to hone his skills and also demonstrate his fairness and generosity - although 
Voldemort caused the latter to backfire on him.

Fred and George had provided support, they had been teammates with him 
at Quidditch and he had helped them financially.

Therefore these folk all meant something to him without him falling at their feet.










From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Thu Jun 23 02:07:08 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 02:07:08 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - SNAPE
In-Reply-To: <347581.55546.qm@web113920.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <itu74c+f40g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190606



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > June:
> I will start off by saying that Steve is correct in my opinion
> although it is sad. I have something that I would have liked to
> have seen though and I don't know if anyone else would agree or
> think I'm out of my tree, lol. After the scene of the Dursleys'
> departure, it was obvious that Dudley was not acting all those
> years out of a hatred for Harry and was now growing up. It would
> have been nice to see Harry and Dudley reunite and become friends.
> I think that they two developed an understanding for each other
> in that scene and I picture them (not as the best of friends) but
> having a bit of a relationship as adults.
>
Nikkalmati

Yes, but I was more disappointed that Petunia said nothing, NOTHING, to Harry at the end, especially as we now know she knew a lot about what was going on.

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Thu Jun 23 02:23:41 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 02:23:41 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itt71r+44qa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itu83d+10ekb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190607



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Librasmile" <librasmile at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Librasmile:
> I don't want to get into a long back and forth because clearly folks are just taking their position and sticking to it. But I'm a complete absolute Snape fan. I don't see him as flawless. But it still puzzles me that people can see him being harassed for years and then NOT see that incident in the Shack as an attempt to kill him. If there wasn't a werewolf involved AND if Sirius and crew hadn't been harassing him for YEARS with NO restraint from school authority, then yes I would say it was just an impulsive act. But from where I'm sitting hostile intent had been established for years before this latest incident and that hostility naturally leads to an attempt to kill Severus. As far as I'm concerned Sirius intended to kill, didn't give a rat's ass what would have happened to Lupin ( until after the fact when he realized that LUPIN could have been killed ), and James was only saving the Marauders' a**'s when he saved Snape. But people are going to believe what they want to believe. 
<snip>

Nikkalmati

Yes, everyone interprets things through their own experience, but I thought in the bigger picture that you meant that no one had a correct sense of morality (Harry possibly excepted, but he did cast Crucio and Imperio and Sectumsempra).  Everyone had feet of clay or fell down on the job.  DD was a disaster, McGonnagal turned on Snape, Lupin allowed his weakness to dictate his non-action and then he tried to abandon his wife, Snape was bad from the start and then had to sacrifice himself to make up for it,  Lily was a prig, Ron ran out on his friends, Hermione was too punitive, etc. etc.  Hagrid comes out pretty well. Draco looks like he is going to change, but doesn't.  The WW is corrupt.  The only morality in the books is the shocking lack of morality - almost like RL.
>
Nikkalmati




From fenneyml at gmail.com  Wed Jun 22 18:47:14 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 14:47:14 -0400
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itt71r+44qa@eGroups.com>
References: <itos4t+at73@eGroups.com>
	<itt71r+44qa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTim1cxFgZoxTb2zWs4CidZZMH3igJQ@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190608

> Librasmile:
> I don't want to get into a long back and forth because clearly
> folks are just taking their position and sticking to it. But I'm
> a complete absolute Snape fan. I don't see him as flawless. But 
> it still puzzles me that people can see him being harassed for 
> years and then NOT see that incident in the Shack as an attempt
> to kill him. If there wasn't a werewolf involved AND if Sirius 
> and crew hadn't been harassing him for YEARS with NO restraint 
> from school authority, then yes I would say it was just an 
> impulsive act. But from where I'm sitting hostile intent had been 
> established for years before this latest incident and that 
> hostility naturally leads to an attempt to kill Severus. As far 
> as I'm concerned Sirius intended to kill, didn't give a rat's ass 
> what would have happened to Lupin ( until after the fact when he 
> realized that LUPIN could have been killed ), and James was only 
> saving the Marauders' a**'s when he saved Snape. <snip>
>
> But no, no, let's all just go with the thought of Severus being
> thoughtlessly evil. Cause he'll be so much safer once he's out of
> school...of course he will be...


Bookcrazzzy:

I don't think of Snape as being thoughtlessly evil by any means, nor do I
think him the purely innocent victim that you seem to consider him to be.
Consider that while a student, he developed the Levicorpus spell that was
used by James against him.  How, may I ask, did it become known among the
students unless Snape used it against someone at some point and would you
think his intent when developing it was "innocent"?  He also developed
Sectumsempra specifically, as he noted in his potions book, "for enemies."
Sectumsempra is without question a lethal curse and I don't think there is
much question that the Marauders were included in Snape's "enemies".  By
comparison, the Marauders developed the Map which was clearly for mischief
making, became animagi to support a friend, and did not do anything at any
point that supports a theory of lethal intent except for the Shrieking Shack
incident.  I don't see the Marauders as innocent either but I believe them
to be immature boys, not evil incarnate and I believe Sirius to be the most
impulsive, thoughtless and least mature of the group but not a murderer.

I believe JKR gave her prominent characters strengths and weaknesses which
is part of what makes them believable.  We all have our failings.

I will also note that Snape harassed Harry (and per my previous post, I
believe he did not hate Harry but thought he was acting in "the boy's best
interest" when he did so), for years and from a position of considerable
authority over Harry but Harry never attempted to murder him.

> Librasmile:
> I've lurked for a while and it's been fascinating reading the
> discussions of Snape's character, culpability, etc. It's
> fascinating also to see how people's biases determine their
> conclusions about him. I've read the entire series and having
> had time to digest it and read some other essays around the web,
> I've come to the conclusion that the morality Rowling portrays
> among her characters is seriously skewed and it's endlessly
> fascinating to see who picks up on that and who doesn't. =^)

Bookcrazzzy:

I agree that personal biases come into play in how people feel about Snape,
Sirius and other characters but I don't think you explained how that leads
you to conclude that "the morality Rowling portrays among her characters is
seriously skewed".






From jbmwfb65 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jun 23 04:20:00 2011
From: jbmwfb65 at sbcglobal.net (jacob brandt)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 21:20:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
Message-ID: <496893.35002.qm@web180102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190609

> Librasmile:
> <snip> I'm a complete absolute Snape fan. I don't see him as 
flawless. But it still puzzles me that people can see him being 
harassed for years and then NOT see that incident in the Shack 
as an attempt to kill him. <snip> As far as I'm concerned Sirius 
intended to kill, didn't give a rat's ass what would have happened 
to Lupin ( until after the fact when he realized that LUPIN could 
have been killed ), and James was only saving the Marauders' a**'s 
> when he saved Snape. <snip>


Jacob:
When Dumblebore dueled Grindelwald and beat him to obtain the 
deathstick do you believe Grindelwald was dueling to kill?



From mxahid9 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 04:54:40 2011
From: mxahid9 at yahoo.com (mxahid9)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 04:54:40 -0000
Subject: This is Maria. I am doing an anthropology project on this group. Read below please.
Message-ID: <itugug+q3ue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190610

HI!!
I am basically observing this group and I have to write an 8 page
paper. I created a poll about wearing glasses. Please do answer it!
Thank you. Really appreciate it!




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 06:17:10 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 06:17:10 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Snape/Harry & All the People
In-Reply-To: <ittk2o+i15b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itulp6+25e8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190611



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <geoffbannister123@> wrote:
> 
> > > Geoff:
> 
> > > In message 190571, Steve wrote:
>  
> > > "Notice one thing about all the people who died, they all stood
> > > above Harry. They were all people Harry looked up to. The people
> > > who remained are all people who looked up to Harry. They stood 
> > > as his equals or, from a certain perspective, his subordinates."
> 
> > > I'm sorry but I disagree with this conclusion. .... There are 
> > > some whom Harry would certainly look on as equals or friends ...
> 
> > Steve:
> > 
> > Yes, but we have to look at the larger context of the discussion and the question. The central question is about Harry and Snape not having their moment of mutual understanding before Snape died.
> > 
> > So, the discussion is not about every person who ever died ever. It is about the death of key characters, those who had an important and significant relationship with Harry. 
> 
> Geoff:
> Forgive me Steve, if I sound argumentative but, you have 
> introduced contradictory ideas into your post.
> 
> You wrote: "Notice one thing about all the people who died... 
> They were all people Harry looked up to."
> 
> and then you also wrote: "the discussion is not about every 
> person who ever died ever." ...
> 

Steve:

If I had made those comments as cold general comments, then I would agree with you, but I did not.

I made the comments to lend perspective to the question of why Snape had to die before he and Harry has their moment of mutual understanding. And the reason is that JKR needed to remove all the people who stood above Harry. 

JKR said as much as this when she explained why she killed off Dumbledore. She wanted to remove Harry's support system, and all the 'heroes' who might come riding to his rescue. 

Harry didn't exactly look up to Snape, but he certainly respected that fact that Snape was a gifted wizard, and talented spell caster, as well as a brilliant potions master. You don't have to like someone to respect their skill. If Harry could have seen Snape as an ally, he would have seen Snape as an extremely powerful ally, and someone to turn to in the heat of battle. 

JKR could not allow Harry to have a resource like that hanging loose when it came to the final battle. All the stronger people that Harry could potentially turn to had to be gone, either dead, or unavailable. 

I would say that people like Arthur, Molly, Fred, George, Hagrid, and others do not fall into the catagory as I presented it, and in the context of the Snape/Harry discussion. Yes, Harry certainly liked them, but in the final battle they all looked to Harry for direction. 

Fred is the most difficult person to analyze or categorize of all those who died. On one hand, Harry looked up to him, he was older, he was brilliant his own way, and he and George were becoming very successful. So, he did look up to them, but o the other hand, he considered them friends. But, in the context of Snape/Harry, Fred was not going to come to the rescue of Harry. And in the final battle, both Fred and George turned to Harry for instructions. 

In general, my use of the phrase "all the people" would have been a mistake, but I think the context of Snape/Harry, and their lack of resolution, limits the scope of what was meant by "all the people". 

Still, this is a very small point to pick at. I can see your point, I just hope you can see mine in the context of the specific thing that was being discussed. 

Steve/bboyminn






From hickengruendler at yahoo.de  Thu Jun 23 13:14:05 2011
From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:14:05 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - SNAPE
In-Reply-To: <its02i+jveh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itve6t+ubk8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190612



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
 
> The key characters who died were all people who stood above Harry.   


Hickengruendler:

What about Dobby? I think he's a key character and other than Snape the most meaningful death in book 7. But he certainly looked up to Harry.




From thedossetts at gmail.com  Thu Jun 23 13:34:12 2011
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:34:12 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - SNAPE
In-Reply-To: <itu74c+f40g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itvfck+7366@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190613




> >
> Nikkalmati
> 
> Yes, but I was more disappointed that Petunia said nothing, NOTHING, to Harry at the end, especially as we now know she knew a lot about what was going on.
> 
> Nikkalmati
>

Pat: 

I always wondered what Petunia did with the copies of the Daily Prophet that Harry left (at least in the last 2 years). As nosy as she was, I'm sure she read them, cover to cover, before burning them. I just can't see her tossing them into the bin and not paying any attention to what was written! 

And then there are the spellbooks Harry left in his room at the beginning of DH! If any of those survived the Death Eaters' search for Harry - what would she have made of those?? I can see her at least paging through, wondering what it would have been like if only she could have attended Hogwarts. . .

It was very disappointing that she had nothing to share with Harry before they parted at the beginning of DH. Aside from Vernon and Dudley, Harry was her only other family in the world. And she just shoved him aside with nothing to say to him. Not even anything about his mother, her sister. Sad.

Just a few thoughts,
Pat




From donnawonna at woh.rr.com  Thu Jun 23 14:19:52 2011
From: donnawonna at woh.rr.com (Donna)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 10:19:52 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: Pottermore
References: <itl0pd+f571@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4E034B88.000069.04048@TANK>

No: HPFGUIDX 190614

Donna said:
J. K. has a video up at Pottermore.
  
--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Potioncat here. Has anyone else seen the hype for Pottermore?
> Any ideas about what JKR is up to? 
> 
> Here's a link
> http://www.pottermore.com/

Nerona:
I really hope it's not another website, the seven books were read 
by all the fans and the movies had been watched (the 7th part 2 is 
coming up) what will another website do that's so different from the 
other ones???

I really hope it's another book it doesn't have to be Harry Potter, 
whatever she writes I know fans will read it. I don't know, I'm 
praying it's just another book. No matter what we say we can't know 
anything before 3 days and 20 hours and so, pray with me guys.



 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Thu Jun 23 18:50:28 2011
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (Shelley Gardner)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 12:50:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pottermore
In-Reply-To: <4E034B88.000069.04048@TANK>
References: <itl0pd+f571@eGroups.com> <4E034B88.000069.04048@TANK>
Message-ID: <4E038AF4.5020205@comcast.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 190615

It kind of reminded me of "Coraline" meets "Harry Potter". But, she did 
promise new information on Harry's world, so I'm hoping all the new 
information isn't for-pay-only. An E-book sounds interesting!!!

Shelley

On 6/23/2011 8:19 AM, Donna wrote:
> Donna said:
> J. K. has a video up at Pottermore.
>
>> Here's a link
>> http://www.pottermore.com/




From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 13:26:28 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:26:28 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general
In-Reply-To: <ite88q+svou@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itveu4+d4uh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190616

As for Dobby, I can not see the point why he died, although he
died saving Harry and his friends but what's the point???
as for his OWL I also felt that she died for no reason at all she
could have stayed in the end, she's just an owl.

I think JKR was trying to make Harry so angry and so lonely (when
she killed these characters) so he could get to the point when he
realise that there is nothing left to lose. But at the same time I
believe that Dobby and Hedwig where not as important as Sirius and
Dumbledore to die.

Nerona






From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 13:31:09 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:31:09 -0000
Subject: HPOP (book 5)
Message-ID: <itvf6t+6fnh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190617

I have another issue in book 5, every time I read this book as
much as I like it as much as I hate it, at some point I hated
Harry so much I threw the book across the room, his Curiosity
killed me, that's without saying reckless (I don't want to start)
anyway, is it only me or has anybody shared this feeling???

I know the story line was supposed to be like that, but why make
him so reckless??? He risked his own neck and his friends neck
just to have a chat with Sirius about his dad.

Then the second time he risked it he got caught by Umbridge (which
I hate so much also) and got his godfather killed just because he
was too lazy to learn and practice with Snape, now why didn't he
just go to Snape and apologize??? And ask for another lesson???

Nerona



From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 14:09:51 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 14:09:51 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - SNAPE
In-Reply-To: <itvfck+7366@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <itvhff+7hp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190618

> Pat:
> I always wondered what Petunia did with the copies of the Daily
Prophet that Harry left (at least in the last 2 years). As nosy as
she was, I'm sure she read them, cover to cover, before burning them.
I just can't see her tossing them into the bin and not paying any
attention to what was written!
>
> And then there are the spellbooks Harry left in his room at the
beginning of DH! If any of those survived the Death Eaters' search
for Harry - what would she have made of those?? I can see her at
least paging through, wondering what it would have been like if only
> she could have attended Hogwarts. . . <snip>

Nerona:
I think as much as she was afraid of magic she was fascinated by
it, to the point where she sent a letter to Dumbledore asking him
if she can join when she was a little girl, but she grew up to see
her sister being a perfect loving person and her parents were so
proud (book 1), I think what remained in Harry's room after he
left was kept safe and away from Dudley and Vernon, I think she
opened the books and read them (maybe knows them by heart), I don't
think she threw them away just like that.




From andy.mills at btinternet.com  Thu Jun 23 17:40:54 2011
From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:40:54 +0100
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - SNAPE
In-Reply-To: <itu74c+f40g@eGroups.com>
References: <itu74c+f40g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4E037AA6.3000102@btinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190619

>> June:
>> <snip> After the scene of the Dursleys' departure, it was obvious 
>> that Dudley was not acting all those years out of a hatred for 
>> Harry and was now growing up. It would have been nice to see 
>> Harry and Dudley reunite and become friends.  I think that they 
>> two developed an understanding for each other in that scene and 
>> I picture them (not as the best of friends) but having a bit of 
>> a relationship as adults.

> Nikkalmati:
> Yes, but I was more disappointed that Petunia said nothing, 
> NOTHING, to Harry at the end, especially as we now know she knew 
> a lot about what was going on.


AJM:
I remembered reading on wikipedia a few months ago some information 
about the relationship between Dudley and Harry after the events of 
DH.  I managed to find it again today and have included the relevant 
section below.

Rowling revealed on her website that many people have asked her to 
include an adult Dudley with a wizarding child in the epilogue of 
Deathly Hallows, and that she herself considered it, but decided 
upon reflection that any "latent wizarding genes would never survive 
contact with Uncle Vernon's DNA" and thus she did not do so. Rowling 
says that Harry and Dudley would "stay on Christmas card" terms for 
the rest of their lives, and that Harry would take his family to 
visit Dudley's when they were in the neighbourhood, but it was 
something that James, Albus and Lily "would dread".

However, Dudley's kids and Harry's occasionally would "get together 
while the adults sat in awkward silence".

AJM





From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Jun 23 19:00:59 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 12:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Harry Potter in general - Above and Below - SNAPE
In-Reply-To: <itu74c+f40g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <351.28559.qm@web113901.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190620


> <snip>
> > June:
> > <snip> It would have been nice to see Harry and Dudley reunite
> > and become friends. I think that they two developed an
> > understanding for each other in that scene and I picture them
> > (not as the best of friends) but having a bit of a relationship
> > as adults.

> Nikkalmati:
> Yes, but I was more disappointed that Petunia said nothing,
> NOTHING, to Harry at the end, especially as we now know she
> knew a lot about what was going on.

June:
Yes, I totally agree. That would have been nice too. It just
seems that there is a bit missing without Harry and his family
coming to some kind of conclusion.











From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 21:35:08 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:35:08 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itt71r+44qa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu0bic+a8a5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190621



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Librasmile" <librasmile at ...> wrote:
...
> 
> Librasmile:
> ... But I'm a complete absolute Snape fan. I don't see him as flawless. But it still puzzles me that people can see him being harassed for years and then NOT see that incident in the Shack as an attempt to kill him. 

Steve:

You would be surprised at how the minds of teenage boys work. They will do the most impulsive and thoughtless things, and further stand by while their friend do the most ridiculous and dangerous thing imaginable. 

Teenage boys don't tell each other NOT to do thing. If a teenage boy wants to jump off a roof, his friends will stand by an let him, as countless YouTube videos of boys jumping off of roofs will attest. 

Yes, I think Sirius's act was malicious, but like all teenage boys, I don't think he looked beyond the idea of the shocked look on Snape's face when he found exactly what he expected to find. And that is the trouble with teenage boys, they can see up to the 'event', but they never look beyond it. Sirius didn't think about Snape being bitten and how Lupin would feel about that. He didn't consider the consequences to Lupin when Snape, a formidable wizard, was forced to defend himself. It was just 'Ha-Ha' imagine the look on Snape's face.

When James found out, he immediately saw the consequences to both Snape and Lupin, as well as the long term consequences to Sirius - bitten, dead, expelled perhaps imprisoned. 

So, as many have said, James acted as much to save Sirius and Lupin as he did to save Snape. 

Further, we don't know exactly what Sirius said, he may have simply revealed to Snape how to freeze the tree and get inside. And he may have done it in an off-handed way -

"Pfft...it you were any kind of wizard at all, you would know that all you had to do is touch the knot to freeze the tree."

He may have used reverse psychology, telling Snape not to touch the knot to freeze the tree and that he would die if he went inside. Of course, to a teenage boy, rather than a warning, that is more of a challenge or a dare. 

Next, no one forced Snape to go. Snape knew this was wrong. Clearly many people in charge were protecting someone from something, and did not want any students in danger. He was out after hours. He was breaking a long list of rules. He suspected Lupin was a werewolf, so he can't say he thought this was as safe as a stroll in the park. 

It was stupid of Sirius to goad Snape with no thought for the consequences to others, and it was equal stupid for Snape to be goaded and to go into what he should have known was a dangerous situation. 

But then, that's what teenage boys are ... stupid, impulsive, shortsighted, easily goaded, and generally foolish. It is a wonder any of them survive. 

Steve/bboyminn







From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Jun 23 22:41:23 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 22:41:23 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general
In-Reply-To: <itveu4+d4uh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu0fej+g5gc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190622

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nerona" <nerona12 at ...> wrote:

Nerona:
> As for Dobby, I can not see the point why he died, although he
> died saving Harry and his friends but what's the point???
> as for his OWL I also felt that she died for no reason at all she
> could have stayed in the end, she's just an owl.
> 
> I think JKR was trying to make Harry so angry and so lonely (when
> she killed these characters) so he could get to the point when he
> realise that there is nothing left to lose. But at the same time I
> believe that Dobby and Hedwig where not as important as Sirius and
> Dumbledore to die.

Geoff:
But that is why I like the books so much. In the real world, in a conflict 
situation, people get killed or hurt not because they are combatants but 
because they are in the way of get caught in the crossfire. Look at the 
news across the world today and I'm sure you will find examples. I must 
admit that in DH, I felt more sadness about Hedwig than many of the other 
characters - possibly because she was the first of the line of fatalities and it 
was so abrupt, so unexpected, so final. LIke a terrorist attack.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun 23 22:50:41 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 22:50:41 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter in general
In-Reply-To: <itveu4+d4uh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu0g01+4981@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190623



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nerona" <nerona12 at ...> wrote:
>
> As for Dobby, I can not see the point why he died, although he
> died saving Harry and his friends but what's the point???
> as for his OWL I also felt that she died for no reason at all she
> could have stayed in the end, she's just an owl.
> 

Pippin:
To set up her big climax scene in the Great Hall, JKR had to get rid of everyone, high or low, who would throw themselves between Harry and his enemies.

We wouldn't expect Hedwig to do less for her master than Fawkes, would we? 

Dobby had already shown that he would not let Harry put himself in danger if it was elvishly possible to stop it. So JKR had to make it impossible. 

I'd like to add, as a comment on the discussion generally, that JKR may have had more reasons than she gave for getting rid of Lupin. Sirius would have been an odd man out in the Forest if it was just him and Harry's parents. (For the same reason, IMO, Tonks is not there with Lupin.) 

 Also, Andromeda Tonks nee Black shows that successful parents can come from Slytherin families,  and letting her raise Teddy emphasizes that.

Pippin







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 00:11:10 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:11:10 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTim1cxFgZoxTb2zWs4CidZZMH3igJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iu0kmu+on00@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190624



.> > Librasmile:
> > I don't want to get into a long back and forth because clearly
> > folks are just taking their position and sticking to it. But I'm
> > a complete absolute Snape fan. I don't see him as flawless. But 
> > it still puzzles me that people can see him being harassed for 
> > years and then NOT see that incident in the Shack as an attempt
> > to kill him. . <snip>

Alla:

Actually I do not see him being harassed for years either. I see him being harrassed sometimes and giving back as much as he could give back. And I still do not understand what attempt to kill (quite possible as I mentioned several times, somebody who hates Snape with passion) has to do with Snape choosing to go in the Shack all on his own.

Even if it was attempt to kill without Snape it would have never happened.


Librasmile:
> > But no, no, let's all just go with the thought of Severus being
> > thoughtlessly evil. Cause he'll be so much safer once he's out of
> > school...of course he will be...

Alla:
I see him as putting quite a lot of thought in being evil actually and I am not being sarcastic.

 
> Bookcrazzzy:
> 
> I don't think of Snape as being thoughtlessly evil by any means, nor do I
> think him the purely innocent victim that you seem to consider him to be.
> Consider that while a student, he developed the Levicorpus spell that was
> used by James against him.  How, may I ask, did it become known among the
> students unless Snape used it against someone at some point and would you
> think his intent when developing it was "innocent"?  He also developed
> Sectumsempra specifically, as he noted in his potions book, "for enemies."
> Sectumsempra is without question a lethal curse and I don't think there is
> much question that the Marauders were included in Snape's "enemies". <SNIP>

Alla:

This. So much.







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 00:15:33 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:15:33 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <itljdu+a596@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu0kv5+l4aj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190625



.> > 
> Nikkalmati:
> 
> Ok lets speculate.  If Snape was killed in the Shack, was James killed also?  That's one possibility.  If just Snape was killed, I presume Lupin would have been exposed and possibly killed also, but this time by the Wizarding judicial system.  Would DD have remained at Hogwarts?  Would there have been a Prophecy?  It looks like DD would have been humiliated at the least.  There would have been no Order of the Phoenix and no stopping Voldemort. I doubt anyone would have lived a longer or a happier life. IMHO


Alla:

Agreed of course. Nobody can predict how one event would have changed the lifes of others. I am just saying that what would have made me happy if I see characters as *real people* is Snape's death with no consequences to Lupin and Black, again because of what he does in the future to Harry and his family. Now of course no consequences is not possible, thus no matter how much I wanted bastard dead and not able to torment Harry for years and contribute to depriving him of his family, sure I do not want Sirius and Lupin to have murder on their hands and be imprisoned or probably dead, you know?

Now if tiny little Nagini was playing around the Shrieking Shack and one day decided to eat little Snape when he was spying on Marauders, oh yeah that would have been a scenario that I would have liked.

Again let me stress, am happy with the story, just describing my fantasy scenario.




From valy1x2 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 24 00:28:09 2011
From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy Brabon)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 02:28:09 +0200
Subject: Mad-Eye Moody
In-Reply-To: <iu0g01+4981@eGroups.com>
References: <iu0g01+4981@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS2075FE997D08D87DFACF0EB6520@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 190626

Hi guys,

It seems there's one of my favourite character who's not very often mentioned in this ML: Moody.

There's a few things I wonder about him like, he seems to have quite a hatred for DEs and dark magic, apparently more than any other character in the series. Could it be related to his past? Maybe he lost someone he loved (family? Lover?) because of them.

Also, I shall raise some squick, but I ship him with Tonks. I've always wondered if his feelings for her were more than friendship...

C'mon! Let's speculate!

Valy.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Thu Jun 23 20:27:02 2011
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 16:27:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HPOP (book 5)
References: <itvf6t+6fnh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <652A6E2F19714EC9A244F3B70C8771F1@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 190627


From: "nerona" <nerona12 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:31 AM


>I have another issue in book 5, every time I read this book as
> much as I like it as much as I hate it, at some point I hated
> Harry so much I threw the book across the room, his Curiosity
> killed me, that's without saying reckless (I don't want to start)
> anyway, is it only me or has anybody shared this feeling???
>
> I know the story line was supposed to be like that, but why make
> him so reckless??? He risked his own neck and his friends neck
> just to have a chat with Sirius about his dad.
>
> Then the second time he risked it he got caught by Umbridge (which
> I hate so much also) and got his godfather killed just because he
> was too lazy to learn and practice with Snape, now why didn't he
> just go to Snape and apologize??? And ask for another lesson???
>
Dorothy:
  For starters, Harry's not perfect, he's a teenager, and one with a lot 
going on in his life so far.  Teenagers have "incomplete" brain functions, 
that is a seeming disconnect between cause and effect that isn't fully 
formed until their 20's.  This alone can make any teenager "reckless".  And 
Harry has so much in his life that can cause anyone to become reckless, 
including the seeming loss of Dumbledor's friendship.
  As far as asking Snape for more lessons, well, after seeing what he did he 
not only felt shocked and surprised, but also a bit ashamed.  As we all 
know, not only could he not have asked for more lessons, but Snape would not 
have given them to him after that episode.
  Btw, I also hate Umbridge, but as I read and reread that book I discover I 
hate it less.  (not Umbridge, though)
  Think peace,
   Dorothy 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 00:39:51 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:39:51 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
Message-ID: <iu0mcn+86gl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190628

This message is a Special Notice for all members of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered off-list (to email inboxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

PoA Chapter 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort

Snape reveals himself fully, binds Lupin, and snarls at Sirius. Sirius asks Snape to listen, but Snape promises to pass him up to the Dementors instead. Snape does not  listen to Harry and Hermione either, instead he has a meltdown, tells Harry he should thank him on  bended knee, instead of being just like his father, "too arrogant to believe he might be mistaken in Black". At some point the Trio have had enough, and knock Snape down unconscious. Hermione panics that they attacked the teacher.  Peter is forced to reveal himself, Lupin and Sirius  try to question him why he did what he did, Peter claims he was scared  and Voldemort was taking over. Lupin and Sirius really itch to kill him, but Harry insists he can go to Azkaban instead. The party prepares to go to the castle, they raise the still unconscious Snape with a Mobilicorpus spell and prepare to take him with them.

1. 
"Professor Lupin could have killed me about a hundred times this year,"
Harry said. "I've been alone with him loads of times, having defence
lessons against the dementors. If he was helping Black, why didn't he
just finish me off then?" This is a funny quote by Harry, since a couple of  years later he fails to apply same logic. Do you agree or disagree?

2.  "You fool. Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting innocent man back in prison?" Discuss.

3.  "But you, Peter -- I'll never understand why I didn't see you were the spy from the start." So, discuss why you think Sirius (and James and Lily) did not see this.

4. "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN
BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"
 Do you believe this? Do you think it reasonable that Peter did not, regardless of your answer to the first part?

5. Snape's emotions in this chapter reach an intensity he has never displayed before. Did you think he had reasons for it?

6. Snape thinks Harry should have thanked him on  bended knee because otherwise he would have died just like his father, "too ignorant to believe he must be mistaken in Black". What were your thoughts when you have read this paragraph  for the first time if you remember and what were your thoughts about this paragraph after book seven?
7. Snape promises to give Sirius and Lupin to the Dementors, did you believe that he will do it?
8. "Sirius says Peter passed information to Voldemort for a year. Why do you think Peter did this?
9.  Please feel free to add your own questions here.

Sorry for the long wait guys.
Zara and Alla

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "POST DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33
Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter  20 of Prisoner of Azkaban, coming soon. If you would like to volunteer to lead a Goblet of Fire chapter discussion, please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com (without the space).







From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Fri Jun 24 04:44:01 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 04:44:01 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu0mcn+86gl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu14mh+cgsf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190629



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 1. 
> "Professor Lupin could have killed me about a hundred times this year,"
> Harry said. "I've been alone with him loads of times, having defence
> lessons against the dementors. If he was helping Black, why didn't he
> just finish me off then?" This is a funny quote by Harry, since a couple of  years later he fails to apply same logic. Do you agree or disagree?

Nikkalmati

I assume you mean he was alone with Snape many times but doesn't realize Snape could have harmed him if he had wanted to.  Yes, I agree that Harry is inconsistent, but he did not want to see anything but evil in Snape.  Here he is defending a man he sees as his friend.  
Nikkalmati

 
> 2.  "You fool. Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting innocent man back in prison?" Discuss.

Nikkalmati

This is not likely to convince Snape.  Lupin is insulting him and belittling what happened to Snape years ago.  Lupin is getting out some of his suppressed animosity toward Snape.  However, he also sees that his attempt to reason with Snape has been unsuccessful. He is afraid for Sirius because if Snape turns him in there will be no way to prevent him from going to Azkaban.  Snape, by the way, has no way of knowing Sirius is "innocent."  Even if Snape listened I doubt he would believe what Lupin said.

Nikkalmati 

> 
> 3.  "But you, Peter -- I'll never understand why I didn't see you were the spy from the start." So, discuss why you think Sirius (and James and Lily) did not see this.

Nikkalmati

I think they had so little regard for Peter that they could not think of him acting independently.  We also have seen that Peter has even as a youngster a fawning way about him.  McGonnagal mentioned how Peter followed James and Sirius around.  He was seen as a devoted nitwit.  Peter must have resented they way he was treated as a hanger-on, but his "friends" never saw it, because they never really saw Peter or tried to understand him.  Sirius is wiser now and can see that he should have seen through the obsequious behavior. 

Nikkalmati
     
> 
> 4. "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN
> BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"
>  Do you believe this? Do you think it reasonable that Peter did not, regardless of your answer to the first part?

Nikkalmati

Well, yes.  Courage, after all, is the mark of a Gryffindor.  Loyalty is also a important virtue in the books and I am sure all of the Mauraders would have died rather than betray even little Peter.  It was the principle of the thing.  No, I don't think Peter acted reasonaably unless saving his own skin at any cost is reasonable.  He became a willing participant and a loyal follower of LV over the course of time whatever his initial reasons.  He was a traitor and did a good job of it.

Nikkalmati

> 
> 5. Snape's emotions in this chapter reach an intensity he has never displayed before. Did you think he had reasons for it?

Nikkalmati

His emotions had been bottled up for twenty or more years and he blamed the men before him for the death of Lily, I'm sure.  He also thought he was fulfilling his mission of protecting Harry and the lack of respect Sirius gave him (despite being held at want point) drove him batty.  Lupin's remark above probably didn't help.  These were two evil dangerous men, traitors both of them, who needed to be kept under control before they attacked him or got away.  I suppose those are his reasons, but he was at this time beyond reason.  If he would not listen to Hermione, there was no one there he would listen to.  

Nikkalmati  
> 
> 6. Snape thinks Harry should have thanked him on  bended knee because otherwise he would have died just like his father, "too ignorant to believe he must be mistaken in Black". What were your thoughts when you have read this paragraph  for the first time if you remember and what were your thoughts about this paragraph after book seven?
Nikkalmati

I don't recall exactly what I thought originally, except that there was a lot more between James and Snape than I knew about.  After book 7 and now I feel a little sad that Snape was never able to see past James to Harry.  It shows that events conspired to make that identification in Snape's mind (along with a little willful blindness on Snape's part). If Snape had been right about Sirius, of course, this remark would have been correct, but we know Snape was wrong about Sirius (just as Lupin and DD had been wrong).  If Snape had listened, and had Peter been revealed, how different things might have been?

Nikkalmati

> 7. Snape promises to give Sirius and Lupin to the Dementors, did you believe that he will do it?

Nikkalmati

He declared his intention when he entered to return Black to Azkaban.  Then he intends to send two to Azkaban.  I do not think he would have done anything other than what he did do, which was to bring Black and the students up to the castle (Lupin was unavailable).  Snape made this threat to cow Sirius who seemed to have no fear of Snape and therefore was not behaving himself.  It worked too.  

Nikkalmati

> 8. "Sirius says Peter passed information to Voldemort for a year. Why do you think Peter did this? 

Nikkalmati


I think Peter was genuinely afraid and directly threatened by LV at some point.  He became a convert too because he spied for a long period and then helped LV to return.  He had a tendency to attach himself to power to advance himself; he became convinced that LV was the coming thing and he did not want to be left out.  He must have believed LV's philosophy too.  He doesn't seem to have any genuine feelings for anyone in the books.

Nikkalmati  
>





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 07:45:53 2011
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 07:45:53 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu14mh+cgsf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu1fbh+108hj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190630

> 2. "You fool. Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting innocent man back in prison?" Discuss.

> Nikkalmati

> This is not likely to convince Snape. Lupin is insulting him and belittling what happened to Snape years ago. Lupin is getting out some of his suppressed animosity toward Snape. However, he also sees that his attempt to reason with Snape has been unsuccessful. He is afraid for Sirius because if Snape turns him in there will be no way to prevent him from going to Azkaban. Snape, by the way, has no way of knowing Sirius is "innocent." Even if Snape listened I doubt he would believe what Lupin said.

Joey:

Hmm, interesting. I read it slightly differently [especially after reading the way Sirius & Lupin responded to Harry when he spoke to them about SWM in OoTP]. I think Lupin really thought that Snape should not let his past with Sirius skew his actions and that he should rather consider the mistake in throwing an innocent man in Azkaban. While I certainly agree that Lupin doesn't see how deep and painful the hurt has been for Snape, I think he is right in saying a grudge should not drive one commit a sin. I think he mentioned the word "schoolboy" to indicate that all people involved [Snape, Sirius, James, Lupin] were immature at that point.

 
> 3. "But you, Peter -- I'll never understand why I didn't see you were the spy from the start." So, discuss why you think Sirius (and James and Lily) did not see this.

> Nikkalmati

> I think they had so little regard for Peter that they could not think of him acting independently. We also have seen that Peter has even as a youngster a fawning way about him. McGonnagal mentioned how Peter followed James and Sirius around. He was seen as a devoted nitwit. Peter must have resented they way he was treated as a hanger-on, but his "friends" never saw it, because they never really saw Peter or tried to understand him. Sirius is wiser now and can see that he should have seen through the obsequious behavior.

Joey:

Agreed. But yet I can't see why they [especially James & Sirius] even bothered to *include* Peter in their group in the first place! Was James' tendency to enjoy adulation the reason? Or was it because they felt an urge to "protect" "weak" Peter? Maybe Sirius had similar questions in his mind too when he made this statement.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Jun 24 16:40:26 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:40:26 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu0mcn+86gl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu2elq+3rqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190631

 
> 1. 
> "Professor Lupin could have killed me about a hundred times this year,"
> Harry said. "I've been alone with him loads of times, having defence
> lessons against the dementors. If he was helping Black, why didn't he
> just finish me off then?" This is a funny quote by Harry, since a couple of  years later he fails to apply same logic. Do you agree or disagree?

Pippin:
 Dumbledore, Hermione, and Lupin all   pointed out to Harry that his theories about Snape were not logical. But Harry didn't trust their logic, he trusted his gut. Snape is doing the same thing here. 

> 2.  "You fool. Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting innocent man back in prison?" Discuss.
> 
Pippin:
If this is Lupin's idea of a reasoned argument, it's no wonder he failed to persuade his fellow werewolves to his cause. Quite aside from the insult with which he begins, he'd sound a lot more convincing if he hadn't just let Sirius sound off about why a schoolboy grudge was worth sending an innocent boy down a tunnel to meet a werewolf. 

Most of the time I like Lupin. I'd love to have him as  a teacher. But when he goes on like this I find myself sympathizing with Snape's desire to see if the Dementors would like a feast.


> 3.  "But you, Peter -- I'll never understand why I didn't see you were the spy from the start." So, discuss why you think Sirius (and James and Lily) did not see this.

Pippin:
Sirius didn't see it for the same reason he didn't care what Kreacher was up to and didn't know that young Snape was planning to become a Death Eater. He didn't pay attention to his "inferiors" except when he wanted something from them. I think James was the same way. What did it matter to them what  Peter or  Snape made of  their lives? 

Lily is a harder case...she did notice that *something* was bothering Peter. But it seems like she didn't know him well enough to  guess what it really was. James didn't want suspicion cast on any of his friends, and it would have been awkward for Lily to question Peter if James objected.  

> 
> 4. "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN
> BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"
>  Do you believe this? Do you think it reasonable that Peter did not, regardless of your answer to the first part?

Pippin:
Black and Lupin did die for their friends, and they both had excuses not to participate in the battles that killed them. So, yes, I do believe them.  Peter never seems proud of what he did, so I think he buys into this morality also. He believes this is what friends should do for one another, just like Sirius believes that people should be kind to their House Elves, and Harry believes people should shun the  Dark Arts. But they don't always have the courage or insight or the self-restraint to do what their beliefs demand of them.

> 
> 5. Snape's emotions in this chapter reach an intensity he has never displayed before. Did you think he had reasons for it?

Pippin:
I was sure he did, and we would find out what they were in time. I certainly didn't believe his rage was due to jealousy about Quidditch.  There was a theory that Snape was acting, but I didn't believe that, either. When he's acting, he goes all icy sarcastic. 

> 
> 6. Snape thinks Harry should have thanked him on  bended knee because otherwise he would have died just like his father, "too ignorant to believe he must be mistaken in Black". What were your thoughts when you have read this paragraph  for the first time if you remember and what were your thoughts about this paragraph after book seven?

Pippin:
There's a typo in your quote: it's "too arrogant" not "too ignorant".  At the time, IIRC, I wondered what Snape was talking about. We hadn't had any evidence, beyond Snape's assertions, that James was arrogant. I think I did start to wonder once Sirius accused Peter of wanting to hang with the biggest bullies on the playground. 

After DH, I can definitely see what Snape was on about. There is arrogance in believing your insight into other people is so good that no one could possibly surprise you.  Of course it is also arrogant for anyone to expect thanks on bended knee. That is maybe a last faint echo of the Half-blood Prince.

> 7. Snape promises to give Sirius and Lupin to the Dementors, did you believe that he will do it?

Pippin:
That's what the dementors are there for, to catch Black and anyone helping him. As a practical matter, Snape knows he is going to have to get Harry, Hermione and the injured Ron back to the castle first. Also, the only way out of the Shrieking Shack is back to the grounds, where the Dementors are forbidden to go. But I can't say I thought of that when I was first reading it. 

> 8. "Sirius says Peter passed information to Voldemort for a year. Why do you think Peter did this?

Pippin:
Peter was in the same double bind that Draco was caught in. If Peter had been caught or had confessed,  Lupin and Sirius would kill him to avenge their friends, and if they didn't do it, Voldemort would. Sirius says as much. 

Pippin





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 17:41:57 2011
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:41:57 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu1fbh+108hj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu2i95+rffs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190632





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joey Smiley" <happyjoeysmiley at ...> wrote:


> I can't see why they [especially James & Sirius] even bothered 
> to *include* Peter in their group in the first place! 

zanooda:

Mostly practical reasons, I think (at first anyway :-)). There were probably only four boys in their dorm that year, and it was easier for James, Sirius and Remus to include the fourth boy into their group then to risk him telling a teacher about them being out of bed after hours and other mischief, LOL.




From bart at moosewise.com  Fri Jun 24 18:11:45 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:11:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion:
 Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <496893.35002.qm@web180102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <496893.35002.qm@web180102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4E04D361.2010202@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190633

Jacob:
> When Dumblebore dueled Grindelwald and beat him to obtain the
> deathstick do you believe Grindelwald was dueling to kill?

Bart:
     I don't really follow JKR's interviews, so I don't know what she 
has said outside of canon on the subject, but frankly, based on what we 
have been told, it is clear that DD could not have beat Grindelwald in a 
straight duel (from DD's contention that Grindelwald was almost as good 
as him, the demonstration of the wand's effectiveness in its ability to 
repair Harry's wand). Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that DD used 
non-magical means to even the odds.

     Now, it has been made clear that wizards, if prepared, are pretty 
much immune to non-magical injury. Also, it has been made clear that 
wizards, even if unprepared, can be healed from pretty much any 
non-magical injury, provided they are still alive when treated (and 
maybe even a bit after that; if muggle physicians can revive the 
clinically dead if they get to them before brain injury sets in, I would 
assume so could healers (although one would also assume that Quidditch 
pitches would have some sort of spell to prevent a player from being 
killed by a fall; this does not seem to be the case). Note that this 
also does not explain why, if all the bones in an arm can be regrown, 
teeth apparently cannot. But, given Quidditch injuries that  we have 
seen, wizards can be made unconscious by conventional injury, and can 
die if not treated.

     Yet, if DD had won the duel by taking out a gun and shooting 
Grindelwald, it seems likely that it would have been mentioned somewhere.

     Now, let's go a little out of canon. Even those of us who do not 
read her interviews would be hard put to not have heard the well 
publicized statement by JKR that DD was gay. One of the comments that 
have been often made is that this piece of information was totally 
superfluous; there was nothing in the stories which would have changed 
if DD liked having sex with men, women, or goats for that matter. 
However, if DD's relationship with Grindelwald was partially sexual in 
nature, he could have used some comment alluding to that to distract 
Grindelwald just long enough to win the duel.

     And that is my guess as to what happened.

     Bart




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 19:19:57 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:19:57 -0000
Subject: Mad-Eye Moody - Winners & Losers
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS2075FE997D08D87DFACF0EB6520@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <iu2o0t+3ncq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190634



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Valy Brabon <valy1x2 at ...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> 
> It seems there's one of my favorite character who's not very often mentioned in this ML: Moody.
> 
> There's a few things I wonder about him like, he seems to have quite a hatred for DEs and dark magic, apparently more than any other character in the series. Could it be related to his past? Maybe he lost someone he loved (family? Lover?) because of them.
> 
> Also, I shall raise some squick, but I ship him with Tonks. I've always wondered if his feelings for her were more than friendship...
> 
> C'mon! Let's speculate!
> 
> Valy.
> 


Steve:

Could his hatred of the Dark Art be related to his past. Most certainly. As to who he lost, I think one of the people he lost was himself. He dedicated his entire life to being a Auror and to being the best their is. He tackled the tough jobs that other had given up on. I suspect he spend so much time away from home, that he really didn't have much of a home or time for relationships on any level. 

Then there is the fact that his body is scared and broken from his job as an Auror and his effort to bring the Dark Arts to justice. 

I see Moody as a very sympathetic character, even more so as imagine the course of his life, and how ever greater expansion of his role as a Auror, contracted his chances for any kind of quality personal life. I imagine is was a somewhat lonely life. As his body became more scared and broken, and as he became more jaded and paranoid, the possibilities for true friendships and deeper personal relationships became smaller and smaller, and as a result, he became more isolated and through himself farther and farther into his work, which in turn only made him more isolated. 

As to Tonk, I think Moody saw what all old people see in young people - all the things that can be and all the things that never could. In her he sees all the hopes and dreams for his own life that are now lost forever. 

I do believe that Moody might have had some infatuation for Tonks, but I also think he knew that part of his life had died long ago. By the time he met Tonks, the darkness of humanity that he had seen and the ever pressing weight of paranoia kept him from getting too close to anyone. 

Though a somewhat minor character, I imagine a dark, and both physically and emotional painful past for Moody. One in which he sacrificed all his own happiness in pursuit of bringing the Dark Arts to justice. 

As heroic as it is, it is, none the less, a very tragic story. 

But then, that's just my opinion.

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 19:26:21 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:26:21 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iu0kmu+on00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu2oct+lhuk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190635



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
...
> 
> Alla:
> 
> ...
> 
> Even if it was attempt to kill without Snape it would have never happened.
> 
> 
> ...

Steve:

What bothers me most about the 'Prank' and Sirius's thoughtlessness is that the person who had the highest likelihood of being killed was not Snape but LUPIN. 

Lupin might have bitten Snape, but I think far more likely that Snape would have killed Lupin as a means of defending himself from Lupin's inevitable attack.

I can see Sirius wanting to put Snape in harms way, but it is unconscionable that he would put his friend Lupin in harms way. 

Thoughtless teenagers.

Steve/bboyminn




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Jun 25 01:07:24 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 01:07:24 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <4E04D361.2010202@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <iu3ccc+biqe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190636



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> Jacob:
> > When Dumblebore dueled Grindelwald and beat him to obtain the
> > deathstick do you believe Grindelwald was dueling to kill?
> 
> Bart:
>      I don't really follow JKR's interviews, so I don't know what she 
> has said outside of canon on the subject, but frankly, based on what we 
> have been told, it is clear that DD could not have beat Grindelwald in a 
> straight duel (from DD's contention that Grindelwald was almost as good 
> as him, the demonstration of the wand's effectiveness in its ability to 
> repair Harry's wand). Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that DD used 
> non-magical means to even the odds.

Nikkalmati

It had been a long time since they had met and I'm not sure that DD hadd not overtaken Grindenwald in ability.  I suspect DD would not have met Grindenwald, without being fully prepared.  As to the wand,  Grindenwald could not have been its Master because he stole it.  He did not get it in a fight.
 Nikkalmati

<snip>
>      Now, let's go a little out of canon. Even those of us who do not 
> read her interviews would be hard put to not have heard the well 
> publicized statement by JKR that DD was gay. One of the comments that 
> have been often made is that this piece of information was totally 
> superfluous; there was nothing in the stories which would have changed 
> if DD liked having sex with men, women, or goats for that matter. 
> However, if DD's relationship with Grindelwald was partially sexual in 
> nature, he could have used some comment alluding to that to distract 
> Grindelwald just long enough to win the duel.
> 
>      And that is my guess as to what happened.
> 
>      Bart
>
Nikkalmati

I don't know about that - they had not seen each other in about a hundred years.  I do think that DD put off going after Grindenwald (which he regretted) and did not kill him, "for old times sake".

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Jun 25 01:18:46 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 01:18:46 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu1fbh+108hj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu3d1m+b1u0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190637



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joey Smiley" <happyjoeysmiley at ...> wrote:
>
> > 2. "You fool. Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting innocent man back in prison?" Discuss.
> 
> > Nikkalmati
> 
> > This is not likely to convince Snape. Lupin is insulting him and belittling what happened to Snape years ago. Lupin is getting out some of his suppressed animosity toward Snape. However, he also sees that his attempt to reason with Snape has been unsuccessful. He is afraid for Sirius because if Snape turns him in there will be no way to prevent him from going to Azkaban. Snape, by the way, has no way of knowing Sirius is "innocent." Even if Snape listened I doubt he would believe what Lupin said.
> 
> Joey:
> 
> Hmm, interesting. I read it slightly differently [especially after reading the way Sirius & Lupin responded to Harry when he spoke to them about SWM in OoTP]. I think Lupin really thought that Snape should not let his past with Sirius skew his actions and that he should rather consider the mistake in throwing an innocent man in Azkaban. While I certainly agree that Lupin doesn't see how deep and painful the hurt has been for Snape, I think he is right in saying a grudge should not drive one commit a sin. I think he mentioned the word "schoolboy" to indicate that all people involved [Snape, Sirius, James, Lupin] were immature at that point.
> 
>Nikkalmati

It was the word "fool" that I thought was insulting.  I am struggling to identify SWM as something other than single white male.  What is that?  I reiterate:  there is no reason for Snape to believe Sirius is innocent.  He was not privy to Sirius' story or Peter's. He thinks Sirius is guilty as hell -both past and present- and Lupin is guilty of helping him.  He thinks Peter is dead, if he thinks about him at all. He also thinks he and the students are in serious danger. The so-called grudge is only a small part of Snape's thinking.  That's one reason he won't listen to Lupin.   

Nikkalmati  




From thedossetts at gmail.com  Sat Jun 25 02:25:40 2011
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:25:40 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu14mh+cgsf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu3gv4+o4o0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190638





> > 
> > 4. "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN
> > BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"
> >  Do you believe this? Do you think it reasonable that Peter did not, regardless of your answer to the first part?
> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> Well, yes.  Courage, after all, is the mark of a Gryffindor.  Loyalty is also a important virtue in the books and I am sure all of the Mauraders would have died rather than betray even little Peter.  It was the principle of the thing.  No, I don't think Peter acted reasonaably unless saving his own skin at any cost is reasonable.  He became a willing participant and a loyal follower of LV over the course of time whatever his initial reasons.  He was a traitor and did a good job of it.
> 
> Nikkalmati

Pat

There has been a lot of time spent here looking for the "good" Slytherin but I think that Peter is one of the few (only?) examples of a "bad" Gryffindor.  More than most, I think he is all about putting himself first - isn't that what Phineas Nigellus says about Slyths? Saving his own skin before anything else. How did Peter ever get into Gryffindor in the first place? Did we ever see anything brave in his actions? I don't recall anything - perhaps there was something while they were at school, but as an adult, I'm not seeing it. 

Back to the question, why didn't Peter die for his friends the way they would have for him? I suggest that, like Nikkalmati, I think his friends simply assumed that he was as anti-Voldemort as they were. He was the hanger-on, not the one out there expressing opinions loudly, but as he didn't disagree, they thought he was with them. When Voldie came to call (and probably crucio), he easily switched loyalties, as Sirius pointed out. But if he was never really converted, for lack of a better word, to Dumbledore's side, then he would have been "easy pickins" for the next big bully.

Pat



> 
> > 8. "Sirius says Peter passed information to Voldemort for a year. Why do you think Peter did this? 
> 
> Nikkalmati
> 
> 
> I think Peter was genuinely afraid and directly threatened by LV at some point.  He became a convert too because he spied for a long period and then helped LV to return.  He had a tendency to attach himself to power to advance himself; he became convinced that LV was the coming thing and he did not want to be left out.  He must have believed LV's philosophy too.  He doesn't seem to have any genuine feelings for anyone in the books.
> 
> Nikkalmati  
> >
>

Pat

I don't feel too bad just saying "I agree" to this; it's better than repeating what I said above! But I agree.

Pat
surprised by her sudden strong negative feelings about Wormtail





From thedossetts at gmail.com  Sat Jun 25 02:45:56 2011
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 02:45:56 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu3d1m+b1u0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu3i54+kh41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190639



  I am struggling to identify SWM as something other than single white male.  What is that?  
> 
> Nikkalmati
>

Pat

SWM usually stands for "Snape's Worst Memory" (the one Harry saw in the Pensieve).

Pat




From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Jun 25 04:36:24 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 00:36:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter in general
In-Reply-To: <itveu4+d4uh@eGroups.com>
References: <itveu4+d4uh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4E0565C8.2080300@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190640

On 6/23/2011 9:26 AM, nerona wrote:
> As for Dobby, I can not see the point why he died, although he
> died saving Harry and his friends but what's the point???
> as for his OWL I also felt that she died for no reason at all she
> could have stayed in the end, she's just an owl.

Bart:
     Dobby died so that Griphook could trust Harry, and also to show 
that nobody was immune. Hedwig died (and the Firebolt was destroyed) to 
symbolize Harry's lost childhood.

     Bart




From bart at moosewise.com  Sat Jun 25 04:37:50 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 00:37:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HPOP (book 5)
In-Reply-To: <itvf6t+6fnh@eGroups.com>
References: <itvf6t+6fnh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4E05661E.7080008@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190641

nerona wrote:
> I know the story line was supposed to be like that, but why make
> him so reckless??? He risked his own neck and his friends neck
> just to have a chat with Sirius about his dad.

Bart:
Harry was 15. He was acting like a 15 year old. And yes, it annoyed me 
too. 15 year olds can be VERY annoying...

     Bart




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Jun 25 04:11:15 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:11:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter in general
In-Reply-To: <iu0fej+g5gc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <360280.79209.qm@web113911.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190642

Geoff:
But that is why I like the books so much. In the real world, in a conflict situation, people get killed or hurt not because they are combatants but because they are in the way of get caught in the crossfire. Look at the news across the world today and I'm sure you will find examples. I must admit that in DH, I felt more sadness about Hedwig than many of the other characters - possibly because she was the first of the line of fatalities and it was so abrupt, so unexpected, so final. LIke a terrorist attack.

June
OMG I so cried when Hedwig died. I loved that owl and even in the theater when I knew what was going to happen, I gasped when she died. Dobby was another one that was really hard for me. I loved those two characters. I used to tell everyone that Hedwig was my favorite character.



From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Sat Jun 25 04:46:42 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:46:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mad-Eye Moody
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS2075FE997D08D87DFACF0EB6520@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <977897.24483.qm@web113914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190643

Hi guys,

It seems there's one of my favourite character who's not very often mentioned in this ML: Moody.

There's a few things I wonder about him like, he seems to have quite a hatred for DEs and dark magic, apparently more than any other character in the series. Could it be related to his past? Maybe he lost someone he loved (family? Lover?) because of them.

Also, I shall raise some squick, but I ship him with Tonks. I've always wondered if his feelings for her were more than friendship...

C'mon! Let's speculate!

Valy.

June
I would think the reason he hates DE and dark?magic so much would be for two reasons. 1-he was an Aura and it was his job to bring them in and 2-He got those scars, eye and leg fighting dark wizards. That would make anyone bitter towards them. As for his feelings for Tonks, I never got the impression that he had any feelings other than friendship for her.



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Jun 25 16:31:36 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 16:31:36 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iu2oct+lhuk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu52h8+h7ba@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190644


> Steve:
> 
> What bothers me most about the 'Prank' and Sirius's thoughtlessness is that the person who had the highest likelihood of being killed was not Snape but LUPIN. 
> 
> Lupin might have bitten Snape, but I think far more likely that Snape would have killed Lupin as a means of defending himself from Lupin's inevitable attack.
> 
> I can see Sirius wanting to put Snape in harms way, but it is unconscionable that he would put his friend Lupin in harms way. 
> 
> Thoughtless teenagers.
> 

Pippin:
Um, I think it may be time for a "'fictional reality" check.

Item one...as far as putting Lupin in peril,  The Prank was no different than the usual Marauders adventure. In fact it was *less* dangerous. At least Lupin was where he was supposed to be, and Snape was not. Imagine what would have happened if Lupin had bitten somebody in Hogsmeade...and yet the Marauders went there often. 
---
(Lupin:) [W]ell, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the villlage by night. Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check. <snip>

(Hermione:) That was still really dangerous! Running around in the dark with a werewolf!
What if you'd given the others the slip, and bitten somebody?
"A thought that still haunts me," said Lupin heavily. "And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless--carried away with our own cleverness."
--POA ch 18

I don't suppose Lupin's reaction to the prank, when he came back to himself, was any different. It was just another near miss, neither the first nor the last. 

Second item:
Snape was a skilled duellist for a teenage wizard, no doubt about that. But you know, I've been looking, and even though I swear I can remember reading "he gave as good as he got, I promise you" I can't find it anywhere in the books or in JKR's interviews. Discussions in other forums have concluded that this particular phrase is actually fanon. Anybody here remember where it comes from?

Going on the evidence of the books themselves,  two teenage wizards could overcome young Snape, so how does that give him odds against a werewolf?

Pippin







From fenneyml at gmail.com  Sat Jun 25 16:38:12 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 12:38:12 -0400
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iu52h8+h7ba@eGroups.com>
References: <iu2oct+lhuk@eGroups.com>
	<iu52h8+h7ba@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTin2JpG4XRM4w_oXaPRCDtXFTSKe9g@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190645

> Pippin:
>
> Going on the evidence of the books themselves, two teenage 
wizards could overcome young Snape, so how does that give him 
> odds against a werewolf?



Bookcrazzzy:

 I think it is reasonable to believe that young Snape would have 
been highly reluctant to use such spells as Sectumsempra on other 
students but he would not have hesitated to use it or any other 
spell on a werewolf.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Jun 26 15:23:05 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:23:05 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu0mcn+86gl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu7isp+k2ni@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190646


> 
> 1. 
> "Professor Lupin could have killed me about a hundred times this year,"
> Harry said. "I've been alone with him loads of times, having defence
> lessons against the dementors. If he was helping Black, why didn't he
> just finish me off then?" This is a funny quote by Harry, since a couple of  years later he fails to apply same logic. Do you agree or disagree?

Potioncat:
It sounds good, but doesn't really prove what Harry thinks it does. Barty Crouch will get lots of opportunities  to harm Harry next year but won't--and doesn't make him a good guy. By the same token, all year long Black has also had the opportunity to harm Harry and didn't but no one gave it any thought.


> 
> 2.  "You fool. Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting innocent man back in prison?" Discuss.

Potioncat: 
 Lupin couldn't help himself, JKR made him say it. It's a bit of misdirection, close enough to the truth so that we/Harry doesn't think any more about it. None of us--not even Lupin-- knows what's going on with Snape. He's carrying the guilt of causing Lily's death, the task of protecting Harry, the belief that Black was the traitor and  he knows a werewolf is about to transform. If he wants Black's soul sucked out it's because of Lily, not because of a school boy grudge.

Back to Lupin (and forget JKR)  I agree with Pippin, this is a poor way to reason with Snape. For Heaven's sakes, Lupin wasn't 100% certain about Black when he first arrived and  he understands what's really going on with Sirius and Peter. It is funny that Lupin, who usually goes out of this way to praise others (including Snape) is so derogatory here. Was he trying to impress Black?  Lupin doesn't know the whole story about Snape and Lily--but he should that Snape has many reasons to believe Black is guilty and that Lupin is helping him. He should have taken a different approach. 

  
> 3.  "But you, Peter -- I'll never understand why I didn't see you were the spy from the start." So, discuss why you think Sirius (and James and Lily) did not see this.

Potioncat: It wasn't clear the first time through--at that time it seemed that the makers of the Marauders' Map were friends. But I think James and Sirius were the friends; Remus and Peter were hangers-on. I'm not sure when Lupin's secret came out, but I'm sure that secret raised him in their esteem  and probably in treatment. Peter was just a little toady---a bully's minion. So I doubt they gave Peter much thought at all--even after the bullying stopped.


> 
> 4. "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN
> BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"
>  Do you believe this? Do you think it reasonable that Peter did not, regardless of your answer to the first part?

Potioncat: I think a true Gryffindor or Hufflepuff would have died before betraying a friend. I've never understood how Peter got into Gryffindor. Has anyone figured that out?


> 
> 5. Snape's emotions in this chapter reach an intensity he has never displayed before. Did you think he had reasons for it?

Potioncat: It really seemed over the top, and we'll see it again very soon. It makes much more sense now than it used to. I think his emotion is all Lily-based.


> 
> 6. Snape thinks Harry should have thanked him on  bended knee because otherwise he would have died just like his father, "too ----- [arrogant] to believe he must be mistaken in Black". What were your thoughts when you have read this paragraph  for the first time if you remember and what were your thoughts about this paragraph after book seven?

Potioncat: I recall some speculation at one time that Snape may have tried to warn James.  However, it's more that Snape warned DD and spied for him. As far as I know, the only thing anyone knew is that someone close to the Potters were spies. James should have accepted DD as his secret keeper. I don't think anyone in the WW had done a better job of keeping secrets than DD. From Snape's view-James turned down DD's offer out of arrogance.


> 7. Snape promises to give Sirius and Lupin to the Dementors, did you believe that he will do it?

Potioncat: At the moment I was reading it---yes. But by the end of this book, I did not think so. After all, he doesn't, and for some good reasons as already mentioned by Pippin. But I  do think he expected Black to be turned over  to them. Yet for the trip to the castle, he treated Black with the same care and dignity that he provided for the others.


> 8. "Sirius says Peter passed information to Voldemort for a year. Why do you think Peter did this?

Potioncat: Because he aligned himself with the biggest bully on the playground, and that's what he had to do. In many ways Peter exceeds expectations. He seems to be a nothing, yet he became an Animagus, helped create the map, and managed the potion for LV. 

Thanks Alla and Zara, great discussion!






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jun 26 16:55:18 2011
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 26 Jun 2011 16:55:18 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 6/26/2011, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1309107318.563.43633.m10@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190647

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday June 26, 2011
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2011 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20110626/97e6a255/attachment.html>

From juli17 at aol.com  Sun Jun 26 18:54:04 2011
From: juli17 at aol.com (jules)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:54:04 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTin2JpG4XRM4w_oXaPRCDtXFTSKe9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iu7v8c+q9tv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190648



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Fenney <fenneyml at ...> wrote:
>
> > Pippin:
> >
> > Going on the evidence of the books themselves, two teenage 
> wizards could overcome young Snape, so how does that give him 
> > odds against a werewolf?
> 
> 
> 
> Bookcrazzzy:
> 
>  I think it is reasonable to believe that young Snape would have 
> been highly reluctant to use such spells as Sectumsempra on other 
> students but he would not have hesitated to use it or any other 
> spell on a werewolf.
>

Julie:
Canon is what keeps me believing that Snape's odds were not good. Both Dumbledore and Snape believe he could have been killed. Dumbledore says James save Snape's life, and that Snape owes James a life debt. And Snape accuses Sirius of deliberately trying to kill him with the incident. If everyone involved believed that Snape's life was in less danger than Lupin's, wouldn't they say so? Certainly Sirius wouldn't let Snape get away with that claim (at least the part that his life was in actual and serious danger) if it hadn't been true. 

I don't know why Snape's life is in more danger, but I assume 1. That spells may be harder to use against werewolves due to their speed, agility and perhaps ability to withstand most spells to a greater degree (no canon to support this theory, but we know werewolves are stronger and I think there was something in canon about them healing better or quicker?). Certainly wizards are quite afraid of werewolves (hence all the nasty legislation) and I should think that wouldn't be the case if werewolves were easily dispatched with the flick of a wand. And 2. Lupin as werewolf is presently contained in a small space. Perhaps generally the werewolf might just bite his victim and then run off, but Lupin has nowhere to go so his werewolf aggression would continue to seek its outlet on the convenient victim trapped with him--Snape.

Julie 





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 19:06:15 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 19:06:15 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iu7v8c+q9tv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu7vv7+ao7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190649






.> Julie:
> Canon is what keeps me believing that Snape's odds were not good. Both Dumbledore and Snape believe he could have been killed. Dumbledore says James save Snape's life, and that Snape owes James a life debt. And Snape accuses Sirius of deliberately trying to kill him with the incident. If everyone involved believed that Snape's life was in less danger than Lupin's, wouldn't they say so? Certainly Sirius wouldn't let Snape get away with that claim (at least the part that his life was in actual and serious danger) if it hadn't been true. 
><SNIP>


Alla:

If Sirius does not disagree that Snape's life was in danger, to me it does not mean that if Lupin's was in more danger he would come out and say so necessarily, you know? In a sense I just do not see why he would even raise that. Now, if he did not think that Snape was in danger, i would agree with you, he would have said so.

As to Dumbledore, did Dumbledore even know about Sectusemptra as being Snape's creation? I honestly do not remember either way. I am quite fond of speculation that Snape went to kill Lupin as you know BUT it is only speculation so going strictly by canon  I would agree that Snape's life was in more danger - once he decided to go there of course. But see my response to Pippin - when I say that Lupin was in more danger, I mean the threat of his execution and that Snape even if bitten may not have been dead, if I remember what book six says correctly.


Pippin:
Um, I think it may be time for a "'fictional reality" check.

Item one...as far as putting Lupin in peril, The Prank was no different than
the usual Marauders adventure. In fact it was *less* dangerous. At least Lupin
was where he was supposed to be, and Snape was not. Imagine what would have
happened if Lupin had bitten somebody in Hogsmeade...and yet the Marauders went
there often.
---

Alla:

Um, okay lets do *fictional reality* check.

If Snape had been bitten, would Lupin had been executed? True or false?

And  again, don't we learn in book six that werewolves do not necessarily kill when they bite? So even from that position yes Snape may have been turned into furry one, but not dead. From where I stand Lupin would have been executed with no hesitations.

.




From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 20:01:33 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 20:01:33 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu7isp+k2ni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu836t+k2hp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190650

> PoA Chapter 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
> Snape reveals himself fully, binds Lupin, and snarls at Sirius.
> Sirius asks Snape to listen, but Snape promises to pass him up
> to the Dementors instead. Snape does not listen to Harry and
> Hermione either...???

Nerona:
I think at this point Snape blames his self as much as he blames
Sirius for Lily's death, although we find out in DH that or hrhp
that it was Snape who passed information to Voldemort about the
prophecy, he did not what so ever tell him where they live, but
since he can blame Sirius for it he took it as a happy idea, but
what I am confused about is, Snape was working for Dumbledore as
a spy, so he would have known that Wormtail is a spy also, so why
didn't he enlighten Dumbledore about this fact?? My only conclusion
is that he counted on Voldemort to keep his promise and not kill
Lily; what do you guys think???

> 7: Snape promises to give Sirius and Lupin to the Dementors, did
> you believe that he will do it?

Nerona:
I believe that he will have done it if he had the chance, it will
make him less guilty and stop protecting Harry, it will make him
easy to stop the commitment he had made with Dumbledore (about
protecting Harry) then he can proceed with his life guilty less,
that he at last paid his dues by sending Sirius to the dementors,
and Lupin too since he thought that he was helping Sirius too.

> 8: Sirius says Peter passed information to Voldemort for a year.
> Why do you think Peter did this???

Nerona:
Peter has a lot of Voldemort inside of him, what I mean is, he was
afraid of death, and since Voldemort was gaining more supporters he
thought that joining his side will be for the better, he thought
that way he will not be killed by the death eaters because he is 1
of them, and the reason behind it was that deep inside he knew he
will never be as good as James and Sirius (magic and friendship
etc...)and I still can't figure out as smart as they are couldn't
they know that he was on the other side spying on them?? In the end
the story line didn't seem to support Wormtail being a very good
actor..

And why did James and Lily refuse Dumbledore's offer to be the
secret keeper???  And why did they switch in the first place?? Now
I know that they trusted Wormtail and everything but why not depend
on their best best friend??






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jun 27 00:30:24 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 00:30:24 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu836t+k2hp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu8iv0+ts2k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190651



> 
> Nerona:
> I think at this point Snape blames his self as much as he blames
> Sirius for Lily's death, although we find out in DH that or hrhp
> that it was Snape who passed information to Voldemort about the
> prophecy, he did not what so ever tell him where they live, but
> since he can blame Sirius for it he took it as a happy idea, but
> what I am confused about is, Snape was working for Dumbledore as
> a spy, so he would have known that Wormtail is a spy also, so why
> didn't he enlighten Dumbledore about this fact?? My only conclusion
> is that he counted on Voldemort to keep his promise and not kill
> Lily; what do you guys think???

Potioncat:
I don't think anyone but Voldemort knew that Peter was his spy. If Snape had known who was passing information, he would have told DD.--or possibly killed that person himself. (At that point in time.) I believe that DD, Snape and Lupin all thought Black was the spy after the event in the street. Before that, they only knew it was someone close to the Potters.
> 

> 
> Nerona:
> I believe that he will have done it if he had the chance, it will
> make him less guilty and stop protecting Harry, it will make him
> easy to stop the commitment he had made with Dumbledore (about
> protecting Harry) then he can proceed with his life guilty less,
> that he at last paid his dues by sending Sirius to the dementors,
> and Lupin too since he thought that he was helping Sirius too.

Potioncat: Sending Black to the Dementors would have nothing to do with Snape's promise to protect Harry from LV. He made that promise to honor Lily's memory, and it was against LV. Black was just one of many attempts at Harry.
> 


>





From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 05:16:23 2011
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike Crudele)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 05:16:23 -0000
Subject: Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic
In-Reply-To: <g11fli+6eek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu93n7+ko3p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190652

Mike:
I don't know why I never responded to you 3 years ago, as this was such an interesting topic to me. But now that I'm done with school, and I just saw my original post in my archive of posts, I feel an urge to re-strike up the conversation. Go figure ;>)

> > In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182966
> > Mike wrote: 
> > 
> > Also, in both cases there seems to be a verbal contract in the 
> > offing. Lily offered her life "instead" of Harry's. Voldemort 
> > offers to cease the battle, not have any more of Harry's 
> > friends "die for you" if Harry gives himself up. The fact 
> > that Voldemort intends to kill Harry is so heavily implied 
> > that there can be no doubt as to what the verbal contract is 
> > demanding of Harry and therefore what Voldemort is conceding
> > in exchange.


> In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182975  
> "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
> 
> As to the likelihood of an magical contract, I think in Lily's
> case, she /proposed/ a contract, but Voldemort didn't accept.
> In the later case of Voldemort killing Harry, it seems far
> more likely that Voldemort proposed a contract and that
> Harry accepted it. His acceptance might have sealed the deal.
> It might have given force to that situation that came from
> another source in Lily's case.

Mike now:

But what about Voldemort's original offer? I realize it is an implied offer, "stand aside, you silly girl" and "this is my last warning" (DH, p.344, US), but when combined with Lily's offer of "kill me instead", I think we have a contract. Voldemort proposed to spare Lily, Lily counter-proposed giving up her life instead, and Voldemort bound the contract by accepting Lily's offer to kill her. Obviously, Voldemort did not intend to be bound by the contract he just made, as his subsequent actions clearly showed. But just as obviously, he was bound by Lily's counter-offer, which he had accepted, unwittingly as it probably was. We should remember that Dumbledore said that Voldemort was clueless when it came to ancient magic. Which does make sense; LV was into pushing the boundaries and strutting his stuff with newer, and in his mind, more powerful magic.

Was there also "Love Magic" involved? Dumbledore certainly thought so, as I think you do too, if I read your post correctly. And maybe this is the extra magical ingredient that made the protection of Harry so complete in this instance. This ingredient was most likely not present in Harry's sacrifice in the forest, which would explain why Voldemort's spells were not completely ineffectual in the aftermath of Harry's acceptance of Voldemort's contract.



> bboyminn continued:
> But now we must ask, is every verbal agreement in the form
> of a simple statement, magically binding? Certainly people
> make vaguely contractual statements in common everyday 
> conversation. Are those casual statements bonded and sealed
> by the fact that magical people are making them? It would 
> seem to me NO. You can have the full force of law, or in this
> case magic, tied to every casual statement you make. There
> has to be something real and significant at stake to be 
> serious enough to invoke that ancient magic; at least in my
> mind it does.

Mike:

I know we're stepping into the realm of writing our own version of how magic works, but I'm in agreement with you. It would certainly seem that something significant, perhaps as serious as life or death, is needed to invoke the ancient magic. It kinda falls in line with splitting the soul being done by murdering someone. Torture, no matter how henious, won't do it. So it doesn't bother me to assume that this type of powerful ancient magic requires mortal sacrifice to be at stake, invoked by a life or death contract.



> bboyminn:
> 
> I think likely other people and parents have died trying to
> protect their children or to protect others, so very much I
> think that Voldemort offered Lily a choice plays a huge 
> role. However, it would seem that in most cases, when bad 
> guys attack, they intend to kill everybody. They might kill
> the kids first to torture the parents, and the parents might
> plead 'kill me instead' but likely they were always going to
> be killed. So, I think there is some weight given to the 
> fact that Voldemort really would have killed Harry then just
> walked away leaving Lily broken but alive.
> 
> My point is that simple self-sacrifice, or offering to die
> instead, is not enough. There has to be the very real 
> prospect that you will live if you yield to the bad guy, 
> <snip>
> So, when all things are considered, Lily's case was very
> unique and special. I don't think those specific combinations
> of circumstances occurs all that often. 

Mike:

I think we agree that there was special circumstances in Lily's case. My contention is that part of those circumstances include a contract that invoked ancient magic. You may be saying the same thing in a different way by including the need for a "prospect that you will live" as part of the circumstances. That's where I think the contract comes in. If Voldemort had not tendered the offer to spare Lily in the first place, there would be no initialization of life or death contract negotiations. There had to be a prospect for life for Lily to form a basis to a contract. Lily's counter-offer of her life for Harry's furthers the negotiations that Voldemort opened. If Voldemort does not make an initial offer, Lily's erstwhile counter-offer becomes simply pleading for her son's life, or as you said, simple self-sacrifice.

Or, you may be disagreeing with me. :>)

Mike




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 06:47:45 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 06:47:45 -0000
Subject: Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic
In-Reply-To: <iu93n7+ko3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iu992h+40mb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190653



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike Crudele" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:
>
> Mike:
> I don't know why I never responded to you 3 years ago, as this was such an interesting topic to me. But now that I'm done with school, and I just saw my original post in my archive of posts, I feel an urge to re-strike up the conversation. Go figure ;>)
...

Steve:

Wow ... 2008.

I probably have a few more things to say, but I'll wait a bit and see if others have some thoughts on the subject before I post. 

In general, though, my position hasn't changed much.

Steve/bboyminn







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun 27 15:40:57 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:40:57 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iu7vv7+ao7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iua8a9+f7g6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190654


> Alla:
> 
> If Sirius does not disagree that Snape's life was in danger, to me it does not mean that if Lupin's was in more danger he would come out and say so necessarily, you know? In a sense I just do not see why he would even raise that. Now, if he did not think that Snape was in danger, i would agree with you, he would have said so.
> 
> As to Dumbledore, did Dumbledore even know about Sectusemptra as being Snape's creation? I honestly do not remember either way. I am quite fond of speculation that Snape went to kill Lupin as you know BUT it is only speculation so going strictly by canon  I would agree that Snape's life was in more danger - once he decided to go there of course. But see my response to Pippin - when I say that Lupin was in more danger, I mean the threat of his execution and that Snape even if bitten may not have been dead, if I remember what book six says correctly.

Pippin:
 Dumbledore certainly knows about Sectum Sempra by DH where we see him caution Snape about approaching Harry in the light of what happened with cutting Fred's ear. 

Lupin says Sectum Sempra was a specialty of Snape's, and I don't see how he could have known that unless Snape was using it at school. And I think (pace, Carol) that we see him use it in SWM. There's no gasp of horror or awe when Snape cuts James's cheek, so my guess is Snape was careful to use it in a way that wouldn't make people think it was any worse than the usual run of student hexes. Which would mean neither Sirius nor Dumbledore  had a reason to think it was any great danger to Lupin. 

Dumbledore doesn't react as if he thought either Sirius or Snape was deliberately trying to kill someone. He keeps a very close watch on people he suspects of that, and yet both Sirius and Snape continued to do things that Dumbledore wouldn't have approved of if he'd known about them. 


> Alla:
> 
> Um, okay lets do *fictional reality* check.
> 
> If Snape had been bitten, would Lupin had been executed? True or false?

Pippin:

False.  

 I assume you are basing your assumptions on the case of Buckbeak.

But consider...  Buckbeak couldn't be killed out of hand. As FBAWTFT tells us, the decision has been made to protect magical creatures, even the most dangerous ones. 


There was a hearing, in fact there were five or six months of judicial procedures. Hardly "no hesitations". The hearing could conceivably have found that Buckbeak was *not* a "mad" hippogryff. That is what the kids expected to happen  and they were shocked when they learned that Buckbeak was going to be killed. It was obvious to them that what had happened to Draco was in no way Buckbeak's fault -- and they can't understand how anyone could possibly see it differently.


 Plus, they are certain that Dumbledore is not going to let it happen if he can possibly help it, and they have an inflated idea of how much he can do. 

 I would expect Sirius and Snape  to think the same way -- that legally Lupin would not be blamed for doing  what werewolves do and that Dumbledore in any case would protect him.  That is why Snape insists so strongly that Lupin must have been in on The Prank and that he does not deserve Dumbledore's protection. 

My DH (that's dear husband, not Deathly Hallows) asked me if I was getting any new insights out of these discussions after all these years. What I've seen from this discussion is how  manipulative Sirius was.

As we know, Sirius picks on people because he's bored. He's bored because he has a craving for high-risk situations. But he doesn't want to take responsibility for endangering himself and those near him, so he's constantly playing a game of "stop me before I go too far." As you pointed out, Alla, there are ways a student can challenge himself without rule-breaking. But by rule-breaking and picking on people,  Sirius makes his behaviors someone else's problem, and that's what I see going on here. 

So, to get back to your original question of  what  Sirius was thinking, he was probably thinking, "I'm bored." So, as Lupin put it, he decides it will be "amusing" to tell Snape how to get into the tunnel. 


First he manipulates Snape by putting him in a double-bind. If Snape goes down the tunnel, he's exposing himself to whatever dangers or humiliations Sirius has planned for him. Or it could be Sirius is bluffing and there's no danger at all beneath the willow, just a secret the staff doesn't want the students to know about. 

But if Snape *doesn't* go down the tunnel, he will lose face. Bad enough if there really is something dangerous under there, and even worse if there isn't, and Sirius will make sure everyone knows about it. 

So, yes, Snape has a choice. But it's  a choice between certain humiliation and possible death. It would take a far more mature and grounded personality than Snape has at this point to see the first as the more desirable choice, to see Sirius's taunts as too feeble to hurt him. And Sirius knows that. 

But Sirius isn't finished yet -- it would be really stupid for him to let anyone know what he'd done if he actually was planning this as a murder. He wouldn't have told anyone what he was up to, and he would have made sure Snape didn't either. 

But the word does get out, and James comes to the rescue. Later on in OOP, we'll see this is a pattern. Over and over again, Sirius will inform someone he's going to do something he knows is forbidden and dangerous, and Dumbledore, Molly, Lupin, Harry and even Snape(!) all try to stop him. Sirius never takes responsibility for stopping himself. 

I think that's really what I like least about him -- it's okay for his friends to enable his behavior,  but when he ropes Harry into doing it, well, that's ugly. 

I want to make it clear I'm not saying Sirius does this deliberately--as Alla says, it would take years of therapy for him to understand how dysfunctional he is.

Pippin













From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 18:53:38 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:53:38 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iua8a9+f7g6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iuajji+dv1r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190655

Pippin:
<SNIP> And <SNIP>

So, to get back to your original question of what Sirius was thinking, he was
probably thinking, "I'm bored." So, as Lupin put it, he decides it will be
"amusing" to tell Snape how to get into the tunnel.


First he manipulates Snape by putting him in a double-bind. If Snape goes down
the tunnel, he's exposing himself to whatever dangers or humiliations Sirius has
planned for him. Or it could be Sirius is bluffing and there's no danger at all
beneath the willow, just a secret the staff doesn't want the students to know
about.

But if Snape *doesn't* go down the tunnel, he will lose face. Bad enough if
there really is something dangerous under there, and even worse if there isn't,
and Sirius will make sure everyone knows about it.

So, yes, Snape has a choice. But it's a choice between certain humiliation and
possible death. It would take a far more mature and grounded personality than
Snape has at this point to see the first as the more desirable choice, to see
Sirius's taunts as too feeble to hurt him. And Sirius knows that.

But Sirius isn't finished yet -- it would be really stupid for him to let anyone
know what he'd done if he actually was planning this as a murder. He wouldn't
have told anyone what he was up to, and he would have made sure Snape didn't
either.

But the word does get out, and James comes to the rescue. Later on in OOP, we'll
see this is a pattern. Over and over again, Sirius will inform someone he's
going to do something he knows is forbidden and dangerous, and Dumbledore,
Molly, Lupin, Harry and even Snape(!) all try to stop him. Sirius never takes
responsibility for stopping himself.

I think that's really what I like least about him -- it's okay for his friends
to enable his behavior, but when he ropes Harry into doing it, well, that's
ugly.

I want to make it clear I'm not saying Sirius does this deliberately--as Alla
says, it would take years of therapy for him to understand how dysfunctional he
is.



Alla:

And here we are going back to my original disagreement. Here IMO you are again taking Snape's free will away from him. Sirius is putting Snape in the double bind?

Who is Snape here a Zombie? He cant think for himself at all? I do not even give Harry a pass for going to a duel with Draco, where IMO Harry spent significantly less time before that "challenge" wanting to go there, if at all, sorry Snape gets no cookie. Most importantly because I do not see an evidence that Sirius would have told the whole school. I mean, he would tell the whole school about Lupin and who he is? I just do not buy it, I mean I cannot exclude the possibility again, but I just do not buy it, especially if he was not thinking when he was exposing Lupin. To expose him to the whole school would require for me a lot of calm and collected intent. IMO if Snape would not have gone, Sirius would have been very quiet, especially if he indeed liked to play the game "stop me before it too late" as you argue. Because then there would have been no people to stop him. It would have been already too late. 

Which is of course does not take away from my agreement that Sirius wanted Snape to go to the tunnel, *of course* he did! Why else would he have told him the information? No matter what the intent was, he wanted Snape to go there. Only for me Snape and only Snape who spent days (or maybe months, who knows) obsessing over Shrieking shack and its guest decided his final destiny.


Oh and sure, consider me convinced that Lupin would have gotten a hearing before execution :). I am afraid I have no doubt that committee members would have all voted aanonimously and had even less sympathy for werewolf than hyppogriff.

JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 19:06:10 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 19:06:10 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu7isp+k2ni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iuakb2+hcju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190656



..> > 6. Snape thinks Harry should have thanked him on  bended knee because otherwise he would have died just like his father, "too ----- [arrogant] to believe he must be mistaken in Black". What were your thoughts when you have read this paragraph  for the first time if you remember and what were your thoughts about this paragraph after book seven?
> 
> Potioncat: I recall some speculation at one time that Snape may have tried to warn James.  However, it's more that Snape warned DD and spied for him. As far as I know, the only thing anyone knew is that someone close to the Potters were spies. James should have accepted DD as his secret keeper. I don't think anyone in the WW had done a better job of keeping secrets than DD. From Snape's view-James turned down DD's offer out of arrogance.


Alla:

This was my question and it is actually quite amusing to me because this was the last time ever when I felt some sort of genuine sympathy for Snape. I mean, I do not remember whether I felt it for the first time when i was reading PoA, but before HBP and DH revelations came out.

Precisely because of that speculation that Snape may have tried to warn James, I was thinking, ok, he is going crazy, but he may have tried to do a noble thing, no matter how much he resented being saved by James he was actually trying to save him, to warn him, so while I may have been mad at him for trying to feed Sirius to dementors (which yes I have no doubt that he would have done), I still felt some sympathy for him.

But after him giving Prophecy to Voldemort and wanting Lily only to live at first came to light, every time I read this paragraph, I am actually quite furious (and glad that he is dead of course). You know, thinking along the lines, how dare you lecture the boy if because of you his parents had to go into hiding in the first place and if because of you (and Voldemort of course before you guys point that out lol) he has no parents at the first place. As if you cared one bit if his father and Harry. would have lived or died, if you would have wanted his widow for yourself.

Alla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jun 27 23:05:04 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:05:04 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iuajji+dv1r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iub2b0+j9ts@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190657

 
> Alla:
> 
> And here we are going back to my original disagreement. Here IMO you are again taking Snape's free will away from him. Sirius is putting Snape in the double bind?
> 
> Who is Snape here a Zombie? He cant think for himself at all? I do not even give Harry a pass for going to a duel with Draco, where IMO Harry spent significantly less time before that "challenge" wanting to go there, if at all, sorry Snape gets no cookie.

Pippin:
But that's the beauty of a double bind from the instigator's point of view. It doesn't matter whether the victim would like to comply with the demand or not, because it is impossible and the victim is not in a position to negotiate for better terms. 

The wikipedia example is a boss who gives you an assignment but doesn't give you enough time to do it. If you are in a position where you cannot communicate this contradiction to your boss, for example because you know he'll fire you for asking questions, that's a double bind.  

Snape has been given a demand: ie, enter the willow, but his social superior Sirius is withholding critical information which makes the task impossible; he knows exactly what's down there and Snape does not. Snape knows it would be useless to ask Sirius for this information and humiliating to refuse the demand. That's a double bind. 

That Snape himself would have  liked to enter the willow and find out what's down there stopped being relevant when Sirius introduced a consequence for not acting on the information he gave Snape. The consequence, like the demand itself,  is implied rather than stated; Snape will be humiliated as a coward.

Alla:
 Most importantly because I do not see an evidence that Sirius would have told the whole school. I mean, he would tell the whole school about Lupin and who he is? 

Pippin:
No, the Marauders are just going to tell everyone what a coward Snape is, make Whomping Willow noises whenever Snape goes past, and generally behave the way Draco behaved to Harry about the dementors. Maybe Sirius will throw in a few werewolf howls for good measure, after all, everyone thinks Snape's theory about Lupin is a joke. (I can sympathize with this, LOL). 

And of course if the staff hears there's a  rumor about a werewolf being under the willow, Lupin's hiding place will be changed, and there won't be anything for Snape to discover anymore. He can swear all he likes that he saw Lupin going out there, and no one will believe him. 

Pippin




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jun 27 23:36:09 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:36:09 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iuajji+dv1r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iub459+gne4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190658

Alla: 
> 
> Which is of course does not take away from my agreement that Sirius wanted Snape to go to the tunnel, *of course* he did! Why else would he have told him the information? No matter what the intent was, he wanted Snape to go there. Only for me Snape and only Snape who spent days (or maybe months, who knows) obsessing over Shrieking shack and its guest decided his final destiny. 
> 


Potioncat:
Well, both boys bearing the weight of responsibility--that is Sirius is responsible and Severus is responsible  is not mutually exclusive. (I hope that made sense.)

But I will admit there is something about your argument that has merit. Let me paraphrase---
All Severus did was tell his boss what he overheard. Severus provided information, it was up to LV to decide if and when and whether to act on it. LV and LV alone is responsible for Lilly's and James' deaths.

[If Potioncat was smart, she would stop here--leave well enough alone, but nooooo, she has to plunge ahead.]

The difference here is that Snape does assume responsibility for his behavior by imploring both LV and DD for help--and later, takes what action he can to prevent further harm. Sirius never acknowledges a responsibility for the outcome of his action in tricking Severus. 

The one act Black does claim is the death of the Potters. And he doesn't take responsibility, he takes the blame. Severus, driven to suicidal thoughts by the death, rallies and serves; Sirius goes to jail. When he gets out of prison, he sits around brooding. Instead of being snarky to students he's horrible to house-elves. In the end, Snape dies trying to buy time for Potter, while Sirius dies showing off for Bella.

[Potioncat takes a deep breath and before she can of think of anything to add, hits the send key]





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 23:44:31 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:44:31 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iub2b0+j9ts@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iub4kv+8pau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190659


.> Pippin:
> But that's the beauty of a double bind from the instigator's point of view. It doesn't matter whether the victim would like to comply with the demand or not, because it is impossible and the victim is not in a position to negotiate for better terms. 
> 
> The wikipedia example is a boss who gives you an assignment but doesn't give you enough time to do it. If you are in a position where you cannot communicate this contradiction to your boss, for example because you know he'll fire you for asking questions, that's a double bind.  
> 
> Snape has been given a demand: ie, enter the willow, but his social superior Sirius is withholding critical information which makes the task impossible; he knows exactly what's down there and Snape does not. Snape knows it would be useless to ask Sirius for this information and humiliating to refuse the demand. That's a double bind. 


Alla:

Sorry, not in the book I have read. In the book I have read Sirius did not give Snape any *demands*. He is absolutely withholding crucial information about what is in the Shack. However, in the book I have read he was not behaving like Draco in POA exactly, he was not issuing Snape any challenge - come to Shack or else. He gave Snape information that he wanted, but the incomplete one. By the way, I was really worried that this will be one of the pieces that we will find out eventually. And of course there is that part where we are disagreeing on what Snape knew - specifically I think his conversation with Lily shows that he suspected or knew that Lupin is a werewolf. 

Pippin: 
> That Snape himself would have  liked to enter the willow and find out what's down there stopped being relevant when Sirius introduced a consequence for not acting on the information he gave Snape. The consequence, like the demand itself,  is implied rather than stated; Snape will be humiliated as a coward.

Alla:

Again, not in the book I read. It is again to me easily absolves Snape of responsibility for his action. I mean, first of all where is canon that Sirius implied that he will be thought of as coward if he did not go?  And no matter what, I thought that Snape knew that Sirius did not have a high opinion of him way before Shrieking Shack and vice versa  and he did not really care?
> 
> Alla:
>  Most importantly because I do not see an evidence that Sirius would have told the whole school. I mean, he would tell the whole school about Lupin and who he is? 
> 
> Pippin:
> No, the Marauders are just going to tell everyone what a coward Snape is, make Whomping Willow noises whenever Snape goes past, and generally behave the way Draco behaved to Harry about the dementors. Maybe Sirius will throw in a few werewolf howls for good measure, after all, everyone thinks Snape's theory about Lupin is a joke. (I can sympathize with this, LOL). 
> 
> And of course if the staff hears there's a  rumor about a werewolf being under the willow, Lupin's hiding place will be changed, and there won't be anything for Snape to discover anymore. He can swear all he likes that he saw Lupin going out there, and no one will believe him. 


Alla:

Marauders are just going to tell everyone what a coward Snape is, Snape is going to hit them with couple of Sectusemptras or do other stuff to them. That was happening it already, was it not? What exactly is present in this scene that *makes* it different? Besides to me Snape having a knowledge or suspicions of what Lupin is of course and wanting to confirm it for a long time.

Sorry, I do not see this scene being a direct analogy to Draco and Harry duel where I would still not give Harry a pass, but there it was - direct challenge to an eleven year old "honor". Where was the challenge there?


'Snape, go there or else'? Sorry, Snape to me was the total master of his destiny here, he just did not have to go as far as I am concerned.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 23:50:55 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:50:55 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iub459+gne4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iub50v+rnv5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190660



.> Alla: 
> > 
> > Which is of course does not take away from my agreement that Sirius wanted Snape to go to the tunnel, *of course* he did! Why else would he have told him the information? No matter what the intent was, he wanted Snape to go there. Only for me Snape and only Snape who spent days (or maybe months, who knows) obsessing over Shrieking shack and its guest decided his final destiny. 
> > 
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Well, both boys bearing the weight of responsibility--that is Sirius is responsible and Severus is responsible  is not mutually exclusive. (I hope that made sense.)

Alla:

Yep and I lost count how many times I said the very same thing in this thread :-) I am objecting to Snape not being responsible at all, because he was you know, forced to go there by Sirius' manipulations, even if Sirius did not tag him along on the chain, or told him that there was Lily there, or staff like that. My god I was worried that this fanfiction thingies will come true.


Potioncat: 
> But I will admit there is something about your argument that has merit. Let me paraphrase---
> All Severus did was tell his boss what he overheard. Severus provided information, it was up to LV to decide if and when and whether to act on it. LV and LV alone is responsible for Lilly's and James' deaths.
> 
> [If Potioncat was smart, she would stop here--leave well enough alone, but nooooo, she has to plunge ahead.] <SNIP>


Alla:

Sorry, but nowhere in this thread I said anything to make this analogy possible or at least nowhere in this thread I meant to say anything to make this analogy possible.  I hold Sirius firmly responsible for giving information to Snape and I hold Snape responsible for going there.

Same as I hold Snape responsible for giving LV information and for LV choosing to act upon it, which of course he did not have to.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 23:56:04 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:56:04 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iub4kv+8pau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iub5ak+55cj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190661



Pippin:
<snip>
> Snape has been given a demand: ie, enter the willow, but his social superior
Sirius is withholding critical information which makes the task impossible; he
knows exactly what's down there and Snape does not. Snape knows it would be
useless to ask Sirius for this information and humiliating to refuse the demand.
That's a double bind.


<snip>


Alla:

Sorry, also wanted to add, I do not see a proof that Snape *wanted* to refuse and not go there, which to me actually refutes your theory quite easily. Snape did not want to refuse because he feared humiliation, he wanted this knowledge, so humiliation or no humiliation, Sirius just gave him what he wanted and Snape grabbed on it with both hands. Too bad of course that he believed his enemy and decided to act upon it with his own rule breaking, still does not look as "double bind" to me.

JMO,

Alla




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Jun 28 01:27:59 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 01:27:59 -0000
Subject: Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic
In-Reply-To: <iu93n7+ko3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iubamv+trt1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190662



<big snip>
>
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > I think likely other people and parents have died trying to
> > protect their children or to protect others, so very much I
> > think that Voldemort offered Lily a choice plays a huge 
> > role. However, it would seem that in most cases, when bad 
> > guys attack, they intend to kill everybody. They might kill
> > the kids first to torture the parents, and the parents might
> > plead 'kill me instead' but likely they were always going to
> > be killed. So, I think there is some weight given to the 
> > fact that Voldemort really would have killed Harry then just
> > walked away leaving Lily broken but alive.
> > 
> > My point is that simple self-sacrifice, or offering to die
> > instead, is not enough. There has to be the very real 
> > prospect that you will live if you yield to the bad guy, 
> > <snip>
> > So, when all things are considered, Lily's case was very
> > unique and special. I don't think those specific combinations
> > of circumstances occurs all that often. 
> 
> Mike:
> 
> I think we agree that there was special circumstances in Lily's case. My contention is that part of those circumstances include a contract that invoked ancient magic. You may be saying the same thing in a different way by including the need for a "prospect that you will live" as part of the circumstances. That's where I think the contract comes in. If Voldemort had not tendered the offer to spare Lily in the first place, there would be no initialization of life or death contract negotiations. There had to be a prospect for life for Lily to form a basis to a contract. Lily's counter-offer of her life for Harry's furthers the negotiations that Voldemort opened. If Voldemort does not make an initial offer, Lily's erstwhile counter-offer becomes simply pleading for her son's life, or as you said, simple self-sacrifice.
> 
> Or, you may be disagreeing with me. :>)
> 
> Mike
>
Nikkalmati

I think we have to take a step back and look at why LV made the offer to Lily.  She was not really impeding him.  She was wandless.  He had made a prior agreement with Snape to grant him Lily's life.  So LV is fulfilling a contract or agreement when he makes the offer.  I am not sure what kind of agreement that was.  It must have been something like a boon in return for the Prophecy.  I agree that Lily make a counter offer and her motive is love.  When LV loses patience and kills her, he seals the deal and has to live with the consequesnce of breaking their agreement.  Harry is not completely protected; he still receives a cut on the forehead through which a fragment of LV's soul enters him.  So was LV obliged to fullfil the agreement with Snape or was he obliged by his action of killing Lily (which was an acceptance of her counteroffer).

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Tue Jun 28 01:46:03 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 01:46:03 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iuakb2+hcju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iubbor+hkab@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190663



> Alla:
> 
> This was my question and it is actually quite amusing to me because this was the last time ever when I felt some sort of genuine sympathy for Snape. I mean, I do not remember whether I felt it for the first time when i was reading PoA, but before HBP and DH revelations came out.
> 
> Precisely because of that speculation that Snape may have tried to warn James, I was thinking, ok, he is going crazy, but he may have tried to do a noble thing, no matter how much he resented being saved by James he was actually trying to save him, to warn him, so while I may have been mad at him for trying to feed Sirius to dementors (which yes I have no doubt that he would have done), I still felt some sympathy for him.
> 
> But after him giving Prophecy to Voldemort and wanting Lily only to live at first came to light, every time I read this paragraph, I am actually quite furious (and glad that he is dead of course). You know, thinking along the lines, how dare you lecture the boy if because of you his parents had to go into hiding in the first place and if because of you (and Voldemort of course before you guys point that out lol) he has no parents at the first place. As if you cared one bit if his father and Harry. would have lived or died, if you would have wanted his widow for yourself.
> 
> Alla
>
Nikkalmati

It is canon that Snape did try to warn James, not personally (I'm sure that would have gone well), but through DD.  Snape must have been the source of the information that sent James and Lily into hiding.  

I am sure Snape would not have given Sirius to the Dementors because it is canon that he did not.  He could have called the Dementors back or just left Sirius down by the lake alone, if that were what he intended to happen

I also think it is canon that Snape did not intend for James and Harry to be killed.   He went to DD in a state of panic because for some reason he concluded LV would not comply with his request to spare Lily.   DD accuses Snape of wanting only Lily to live and tells Snape that is disgusting.  Then Snape replies "save them all."  DD looks into Snape's eyes and is satisfied.  What did he see except that Snape meant it?  He had not asked for James and Harry because he was not even thinking about them.  He was preoccupied with Lily, but it was not part of his plan that the others would die.  Having been a student under DD, was it even feasible for Snape to think that DD would save Lily and only Lily?   

Nikkalmati




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 02:03:11 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 02:03:11 -0000
Subject: Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic
In-Reply-To: <iubamv+trt1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iubcov+8koh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190664



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> <big snip>
> >
> > > bboyminn:
> > > 
> > > I think likely other people and parents have died trying to
> > > protect their children or to protect others, so very much I
> > > think that Voldemort offered Lily a choice plays a huge 
> > > role. ....
> > > 
> > > My point is that simple self-sacrifice, or offering to die
> > > instead, is not enough. There has to be the very real 
> > > prospect that you will live ...
> > 
> > Mike:
> > 
> > I think we agree that there was special circumstances in Lily's case. My contention is that part of those circumstances include a contract that invoked ancient magic. ...
> > 
> > Or, you may be disagreeing with me. :>)
> > 
> > Mike
> >
> Nikkalmati
> 
> I think we have to take a step back and look at why LV made the offer to Lily.  She was not really impeding him.  She was wandless.  He had made a prior agreement with Snape to grant him Lily's life.  So LV is fulfilling a contract or agreement when he makes the offer.  I am not sure what kind of agreement that was.  ...  I agree that Lily make a counter offer and her motive is love.  When LV loses patience and kills her, he seals the deal and has to live with the consequesnce of breaking their agreement.  ...
> 
> Nikkalmati
>


Steve:

We know there are "Magically Binding Contracts". Harry entries into one when he submits his name to the Goblet of Fire, even though we know he didn't personally do it. 

We know some type of Ancient Magic was invoked when Voldy killed Lily and tried to kill Harry.

Also note the the basic protections Harry received from that sacrifice was further enhanced by efforts from Dumbledore, and Petunia's acceptance of Harry into their house. Petunia's act of taking Harry in sealed that particular protective magic. One could consider that a conclusion of a contract. Dumbledore made a magical offer, Petunia accepted, and that sealed the deal and activated the Protection.

My point in saying this is to remind people that the total protection afforded Harry does not come completely from Lily's sacrifice. Dumbledore and Petunia play a part in extending Lily's protection beyond what it originally was.  

But, specifically what does it take to make a casual contract a MAGICAL Contract.

RON: Get me cup of coffee will you?

HARRY: Sure.

RON: Where's my coffee?

HARRY: Oh...sorry, I forgot. 

On the most casual level this could be considered a contract. But is it Magically Binding because it is made by magical people, and what are the consequences of violating the contract? Does Harry drop dead because he forget to get Ron a cup of coffee? 

There has to be some specific and unique characteristic for magic to be invoked. Or, at least, in my opinion.

But that is that 'specific and unique characteristic'?

We speak, metaphorically, of Lily and Voldy negotiating a 'contract'. We know that Voldy and Snape had a previous 'contract'. And that is a perfectly valid metaphor for purposes of analyzing the event, but at what point is ancient magic invoked, and at what point is a Magically Binding Contract created? 

I think in this case, repeating my previous position, it is because Lily really could have lived. Snape wanted her, Voldy was willing to grant that request, Lily could live. 

But when she threw herself in front of Harry, and said 'take me', magic was not invoked between Lily and Voldemort, but between Lily and Harry. My love shields you to my detriment and your to  protection. Harry gained protection to Voldemort's detriment. But Voldemort gained nothing by way of magic or contract. 

So, using the contract Metaphor, the contract that invoked the ancient magic had to be between Lily and Harry, not Lily and Voldemort or Snape. 

Thoughts?

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 02:09:51 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 02:09:51 -0000
Subject: Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic
In-Reply-To: <iubcov+8koh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iubd5f+cjfe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190665



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
But Voldemort gained nothing by way of magic or contract.

Steve:

Voldemort GAINED nothing, but he was still involved and still influenced by the magic that was created. The magic certainly controlled and influenced Voldemort, but he really didn't gain in any sense. 

Once could say he was an incidental party to a contract and magic created by others. 

Steve/bboymimnn




From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Jun 28 02:23:38 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 22:23:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic
In-Reply-To: <iubcov+8koh@eGroups.com>
References: <iubcov+8koh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4E093B2A.8090705@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190666

On 6/27/2011 10:03 PM, Steve wrote:
> But, specifically what does it take to make a casual contract a 
> MAGICAL Contract.
> RON: Get me cup of coffee will you?
>
> HARRY: Sure.
>
> RON: Where's my coffee?
>
> HARRY: Oh...sorry, I forgot.
>
> On the most casual level this could be considered a contract.

Bart:
     Nope; no consideration on Ron's part.

     Bart





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 04:48:46 2011
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Joey Smiley)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 04:48:46 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iu3d1m+b1u0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iubmfe+golg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190667

> > > 2. "You fool. Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting innocent man back in prison?" Discuss.
> > 
> > > Nikkalmati
> > 
> > > This is not likely to convince Snape. Lupin is insulting him and belittling what happened to Snape years ago. Lupin is getting out some of his suppressed animosity toward Snape. However, he also sees that his attempt to reason with Snape has been unsuccessful. He is afraid for Sirius because if Snape turns him in there will be no way to prevent him from going to Azkaban. Snape, by the way, has no way of knowing Sirius is "innocent." Even if Snape listened I doubt he would believe what Lupin said.
> > 
> > Joey:
> > 
> > Hmm, interesting. I read it slightly differently [especially after reading the way Sirius & Lupin responded to Harry when he spoke to them about SWM in OoTP]. I think Lupin really thought that Snape should not let his past with Sirius skew his actions and that he should rather consider the mistake in throwing an innocent man in Azkaban. While I certainly agree that Lupin doesn't see how deep and painful the hurt has been for Snape, I think he is right in saying a grudge should not drive one commit a sin. I think he mentioned the word "schoolboy" to indicate that all people involved [Snape, Sirius, James, Lupin] were immature at that point.

Nikkalmati responded:

> It was the word "fool" that I thought was insulting.  I am struggling to identify SWM as something other than single white male.  What is that?  I reiterate:  there is no reason for Snape to believe Sirius is innocent.  He was not privy to Sirius' story or Peter's. He thinks Sirius is guilty as hell -both past and present- and Lupin is guilty of helping him.  He thinks Peter is dead, if he thinks about him at all. He also thinks he and the students are in serious danger. The so-called grudge is only a small part of Snape's thinking.  That's one reason he won't listen to Lupin.   

Joey now:

Oh sorry, SWM refers to the chapter titled Snape's Worst Memory in Book 5. :-) 

You are right about Snape's viewpoint. I can understand Snape's refusal to trust Sirius - Sirius never showed any good side of his to Snape. But then Snape also fails to consider another point: just the way DD trusts him for a major reason known only to the two of them, DD may have strong reasons to trust Lupin as well - DD did silence Snape when he tried to suggest that Lupin must have let Black in the castle. We see that only James, Sirius, Peter enjoy what they do to Snape. While Lupin did not try to stop them [not a great quality, I admit], he at least never encouraged or enjoyed what they did. So, Snape could have at least heard Lupin's account of the story? 

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 06:18:51 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 06:18:51 -0000
Subject: Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic
In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0805211749l33ee0d4fhca15512c897adfdf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iubrob+p6p3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190668



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Cordova" <sweenlit at ...> wrote:
>
> Mike:
> 
> Whether Lily had any idea that
> there was some "Ancient Magic" available to make her sacrifice
> meaningful, we have no way of knowing but it seems unlikely.
> 
> Lynda: (replies)
> 
> That's an interesting assumption. Throughout the series the
> "ancient magic" has always been associated with Lily's
> sacrifice--it therefore makes sense that Lily knew something 
> about that ancient magic. I realize that there is no hard and 
> fast evidence to that effect, but neither is there any that the
> other is true.
> 

Steve:

Interesting. This raises an issue in my mind. If Lily was aware of the 'ancient magic' she was invoking, does that corrupt the process? 

Does this 'magic' have to be spontaneous and innocent, or can it be willful and calculated? Can you knowingly and willful invoke this particular aspect of Ancient Magic? 

I'm not sure. It seems much more powerful if Lily doesn't know, and simply feels the deep parental need to protect her child. But, at least in my mind, some of the literary magic is lost, if it is willful and calculated. 

Based on vague implications by Dumbledore, I have to believe that Lily stumbled on this by accident. There was no calculation or forethought. Still, I'm not sure there is enough evidence to prove or even establish that position. 



> Mike:
> In the second case, Voldemort implied that the war would end and no
> harm would come to anyone else, if Harry gave himself up. Whether
> Harry believed that is unclear, but he was sure that his sacrifice
> would put Voldemort one step closer to defeat and that seemed to be
> at least part of his intention
> 
> Lynda:
> 
> I never believe that what a deceiver is telling me is truthful,
> myself. So I've always read Thingy's statements with a jaundiced
> eye, expecting them to be lies.
> 
> Lynda
> 

Steve: 

Voldemort kills people on a whim, human life, other than his own, means nothing to him. All are just fodder for his canon. 

I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw Hagrid. 

Steve/bboyminn





From thedossetts at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 14:47:51 2011
From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:47:51 -0000
Subject: Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic
In-Reply-To: <4E093B2A.8090705@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <iucpin+s1ej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190669



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> On 6/27/2011 10:03 PM, Steve wrote:
> > But, specifically what does it take to make a casual contract a 
> > MAGICAL Contract.
> > RON: Get me cup of coffee will you?
> >
> > HARRY: Sure.
> >
> > RON: Where's my coffee?
> >
> > HARRY: Oh...sorry, I forgot.
> >
> > On the most casual level this could be considered a contract.
> 
> Bart:
>      Nope; no consideration on Ron's part.
> 
>      Bart
>

Pat:
Exactly - there is the essence of "making a deal" here: Snape, by asking Voldemort to spare Lily, was asking for a deal. In other words, do me a favor here, spare the girl. And Lily, by pleading for Harry's life, is offering another deal, which is accepted when V kills her first. So these can definitely be seen as contracts. 

"Get me some coffee" on the other hand, in no other context, is just a request. Snape's and Lily's requests were not nearly so casual.

Pat





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jun 28 17:15:46 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:15:46 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iub50v+rnv5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iud282+psod@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190670

 
> Alla:
> 
> Yep and I lost count how many times I said the very same thing in this thread :-) I am objecting to Snape not being responsible at all, because he was you know, forced to go there by Sirius' manipulations, even if Sirius did not tag him along on the chain, or told him that there was Lily there, or staff like that. My god I was worried that this fanfiction thingies will come true.

Pippin:
I didn't say  that Sirius's manipulation forced Snape to go there. The term  "manipulation"  as I'm using it refers to a style of communication.  It doesn't imply that the communication succeeds in  getting the victim to do what the manipulative person wants, so it doesn't matter whether the victim already wanted to do as the manipulator intends. 

We don't know exactly what Sirius said to Snape, just as we don't know exactly what Snape said to Sirius when he told him that Harry might have gone to the MoM. But it's hard to imagine that in either case they managed to set aside the habits of a lifetime and speak civilly.

Even Dumbledore does not claim that Snape would have been civil to Sirius, only that Sirius was too old and wise to be influenced by taunting. That implies that the young and foolish can be influenced by taunting. It doesn't mean they've lost their free will, only that they allow the taunting to become a factor in their decision.

I think that Sirius acted with the intention of getting Snape in trouble, and with complete indifference as to whether Snape emerged from the trouble dead, alive or bitten by a werewolf, because he did not think beyond the moment when Snape realized how much trouble he was actually in. And because Sirius did not think beyond that moment, he did not realize that he was acting with complete indifference towards Lupin also. 


 Snape acted in a similar fashion, IMO. He wanted to get Lupin and  James in trouble in order to show that James was not worthy of Lily. He acted with complete indifference as to whether Lupin and James emerged from the trouble alive, dead, or at the mercy of the WW's criminal justice system (is JKR comparing it to a werewolf? LOL!), because he never thought beyond the moment when Lily realized what toerags they were.

Later on, as a DE, his callousness is not simply a function of his thoughtlessness. He knows that he is part of a conspiracy to murder people whom the WW regards as innocent and harmless.  Their lives don't matter, as long as Snape gets what he wants. But because he cannot imagine any reasonable person wanting to harm Lily, he doesn't see his actions as threatening her until it is too late. 

Certainly there's some poetic meaning in sending Snape out to the Shrieking Shack three times. It invites us to consider whether Snape has changed any, and it points out that Snape is a much more dynamic character than Sirius. We don't have the same kind of prompting to look back over Sirius's life.

Sirius does say, in OOP, that he is not proud of how he behaved towards Snape. But  he never got as far as telling Snape that.  Snape, OTOH, does convey his remorse over Lily to Harry, and Harry accepts that it was sincere. 

Harry isn't upset that Snape never agonized over what happened to James and himself...what would be the point? Snape couldn't possibly have felt worse than he did already. 

Pippin






From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Jun 28 17:29:39 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 13:29:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch
 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iubmfe+golg@eGroups.com>
References: <iubmfe+golg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4E0A0F83.1090100@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190671

Joey:
>
> You are right about Snape's viewpoint. I can understand Snape's refusal to trust Sirius - Sirius never showed any good side of his to Snape. But then Snape also fails to consider another point: just the way DD trusts him for a major reason known only to the two of them, DD may have strong reasons to trust Lupin as well - DD did silence Snape when he tried to suggest that Lupin must have let Black in the castle. We see that only James, Sirius, Peter enjoy what they do to Snape. While Lupin did not try to stop them [not a great quality, I admit], he at least never encouraged or enjoyed what they did. So, Snape could have at least heard Lupin's account of the story?

Bart:
But note that DD, in this case, was wrong. In spite of the fact that 
Lupin knew that Sirius was an unregistered animagus, and believed Sirius 
to be guilty, he still didn't tell DD about his canine tendencies. And 
DD clearly believed Sirius to be guilty (largely because Sirius believed 
himself to be guilty, just not of what he was charged).

     Bart



From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 21:01:22 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:01:22 -0000
Subject: Discussion HPDH
Message-ID: <iudff2+9sbm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190672

I have several questions about the Deathly Hallows:  First of them
on Bill's and Fleur's wedding during the ceremony Bill was called
William Arthur--why???

and

Why did Snape search Grimmauld Place??? Now I remember something
about Lily photo with Harry on a broom stick but what was he looking
for??

Discuss please.

Nerona




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 21:35:35 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:35:35 -0000
Subject: Cedric, Snape and carma was re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <iud282+psod@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iudhf7+v0dl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190673



 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Yep and I lost count how many times I said the very same thing in this thread :-) I am objecting to Snape not being responsible at all, because he was you know, forced to go there by Sirius' manipulations, even if Sirius did not tag him along on the chain, or told him that there was Lily there, or staff like that. My god I was worried that this fanfiction thingies will come true.
> 
> Pippin:
> I didn't say  that Sirius's manipulation forced Snape to go there. The term  "manipulation"  as I'm using it refers to a style of communication.  It doesn't imply that the communication succeeds in  getting the victim to do what the manipulative person wants, so it doesn't matter whether the victim already wanted to do as the manipulator intends. <SNIP>


Alla:

Oooo, I am snipping the whole post in order to just ask for clarification. I definitely agree that Sirius acted with intent to get Snape in trouble, no matter what kind of trouble different people would think of. As long as you are using manipulation to mean that and not that Sirius did specific thing, which guaranteed success of that manipulation I have no problem with that. In other words, no matter how manipulative he acted, without Snape doing his part he would have no chance of success. Thats my position and of course because of that I disagree that Snape was a *victim*. I have no problem calling Snape  *intended victim* though lol, but victim to me again has no choice in what is happening. Snape may have been a victim of said manipulation in Sirius' mind, but he still have had a choice not to be one.




From margdean56 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 21:37:13 2011
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:37:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <iudff2+9sbm@eGroups.com>
References: <iudff2+9sbm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=UxwWuLYw-CmRj-CFypDD-N0bmWw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190674

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 3:01 PM, nerona <nerona12 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have several questions about the Deathly Hallows: First of them
> on Bill's and Fleur's wedding during the ceremony Bill was called
> William Arthur--why???

I would assume that's his full name, just as Ron is actually Ronald,
Ginny is Ginevra, and so forth.  Or am I misunderstanding your
question?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 21:41:51 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:41:51 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iubbor+hkab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iudhqv+ofni@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190675



> Nikkalmati:
> 
> It is canon that Snape did try to warn James, not personally (I'm sure that would have gone well), but through DD.  Snape must have been the source of the information that sent James and Lily into hiding.  

Alla:

I meant personal warning to James.

Nikkalmati: 
> I am sure Snape would not have given Sirius to the Dementors because it is canon that he did not.  He could have called the Dementors back or just left Sirius down by the lake alone, if that were what he intended to happen.

Alla:

Lets agree to disagree on this one, because to me Snape did exactly that, no matter what the intermediary point was. 

Nikkalmati:
> I also think it is canon that Snape did not intend for James and Harry to be killed.   He went to DD in a state of panic because for some reason he concluded LV would not comply with his request to spare Lily.   DD accuses Snape of wanting only Lily to live and tells Snape that is disgusting.  Then Snape replies "save them all."  DD looks into Snape's eyes and is satisfied.  What did he see except that Snape meant it?  He had not asked for James and Harry because he was not even thinking about them.  He was preoccupied with Lily, but it was not part of his plan that the others would die.  

Alla:

I do not have HBP in front of me, but doesn't Snape say - "Then save them all"? In other words when the disgusting request failed, lets try something which Dumbledore may find less disgusting, which includes Harry and James? If so, I interpret that initially Snape wanted only Lily to live and I actually believe Voldemort when he says that Snape wanted Lily for himself. Then if her young husband is out of the way and her young child all the better. Of course I still do not know how he imagined the grieving widow would submit to him, but I would not put it beneath him to put her under Imperio and at least enjoy her in bed. 

Nikkalmati:
Having been a student under DD, was it even feasible for Snape to think that DD would save Lily and only Lily?   

Alla:

Sure, I do not think it would have been feasible, but I am thinking about what Snape wanted, not about what Dumbledore would have done.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 21:44:50 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:44:50 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iudhqv+ofni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iudi0i+crof@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190676



Alla:

I do not have HBP in front of me, but doesn't Snape say - "Then save them all"?
In other words when the disgusting request failed, lets try something which
Dumbledore may find less disgusting, which includes Harry and James? If so, I
interpret that initially Snape wanted only Lily to live and I actually believe
Voldemort when he says that Snape wanted Lily for himself. Then if her young
husband is out of the way and her young child all the better. Of course I still
do not know how he imagined the grieving widow would submit to him, but I would
not put it beneath him to put her under Imperio and at least enjoy her in bed.


Alla:

Oh and before you guys point it out, of course Snape putting Lily under Imperio and enjoying her in bed  is a speculation, but it is based on Voldemort's words. Who is of course so often a liar, but hey there are instances in canon that he does speak the truth, so why cant this one be the one? :)




From librasmile at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 16:40:54 2011
From: librasmile at yahoo.com (Librasmile)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 16:40:54 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iubbor+hkab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iud06m+85t8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190677



> Nikkalmati:
> It is canon that Snape did try to warn James, not personally (I'm sure that would have gone well), but through DD.  Snape must have been the source of the information that sent James and Lily into hiding.
>
> I am sure Snape would not have given Sirius to the Dementors because it is canon that he did not.  He could have called the Dementors back or just left Sirius down by the lake alone, if that were what he intended to happen
>
> I also think it is canon that Snape did not intend for James and Harry to be killed.   He went to DD in a state of panic because for some reason he concluded LV would not comply with his request to spare Lily.   DD accuses Snape of wanting only Lily to live and tells Snape that is disgusting.  Then Snape replies "save them all."  DD looks into Snape's eyes and is satisfied.  What did he see except that Snape meant it?  He had not asked for James and Harry because he was not even thinking about them.  He was preoccupied with Lily, but it was not part of his plan that the others would die.  Having been a student under DD, was it even feasible for Snape to think that DD
> would save Lily and only Lily?


Librasmile:
Yes, but those are the conclusions you come to when you see Snape
as a human being which is not a position that any amount of logic,
rational argument, common sense or anything else that an anti-Snape
person can accept. =^)



From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 21:53:28 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:53:28 -0000
Subject: Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=UxwWuLYw-CmRj-CFypDD-N0bmWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iudigo+bdp1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190678


> > Nerona:
> > I have several questions about the Deathly Hallows: First of them
> > on Bill's and Fleur's wedding during the ceremony Bill was called
> > William Arthur--why???
>
> Margaret:
> I would assume that's his full name, just as Ron is actually Ronald,
> Ginny is Ginevra, and so forth.  Or am I misunderstanding your
> question?

Nerona:
No no, you're right, no misunderstanding, but my question is Bill is
not a shortcut to William...





From margdean56 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 22:08:22 2011
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 16:08:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <iudigo+bdp1@eGroups.com>
References: <BANLkTi=UxwWuLYw-CmRj-CFypDD-N0bmWw@mail.gmail.com>
	<iudigo+bdp1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinSPuZDpCs0fJdHSGN01k_fCP3pVw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190679

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 3:53 PM, nerona <nerona12 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Nerona:
>
> > > I have several questions about the Deathly Hallows: First of them
> > > on Bill's and Fleur's wedding during the ceremony Bill was called
> > > William Arthur--why???
> >
> > Margaret:
> > I would assume that's his full name, just as Ron is actually Ronald,
> > Ginny is Ginevra, and so forth. Or am I misunderstanding your
> > question?
>
> Nerona:
> No no, you're right, no misunderstanding, but my question is Bill is
> not a shortcut to William...

Not a nickname for William?  Yes it is, just as Bob is for Robert.  My
late uncle William, for example, always went by "Bill."


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>



From ddankanyin at cox.net  Tue Jun 28 22:09:28 2011
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:09:28 -0400
Subject: Ministry departments
Message-ID: <74A6E499DB284E3D86A41F051CDB8176@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 190680

  I'm still a newbie here, but I wonder if any of you have given any thought to the Unspeakables?  Arthur Weasley mentioned them on the way to bring Harry to his hearing in book 5.  Has anyone got any theories on what the Unspeakables actually do?  Just a thought.
  Think peace,
   Dorothy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Tue Jun 28 22:11:31 2011
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:11:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion HPDH
References: <iudigo+bdp1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <82EF75BA3E7E4F3DA2B07457D8E04D08@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 190681

>> > Nerona:
>> > I have several questions about the Deathly Hallows: First of them
>> > on Bill's and Fleur's wedding during the ceremony Bill was called
>> > William Arthur--why???
>> 
>> Margaret:
>> I would assume that's his full name, just as Ron is actually Ronald,
>> Ginny is Ginevra, and so forth.  Or am I misunderstanding your
>> question?
> 
> Nerona:
> No no, you're right, no misunderstanding, but my question is Bill is 
> not a shortcut to William...

Dorothy:
  Yes, it is!




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Jun 29 01:12:24 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 01:12:24 -0000
Subject: Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <iudff2+9sbm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iudu5o+fq63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190683


Nerona:
> 
> Why did Snape search Grimmauld Place??? Now I remember something
> about Lily photo with Harry on a broom stick but what was he looking
> for??
>

Potioncat:
It's been a while since I read DH and I'm not sure if I ever knew what Snape was looking for. He may have gone just for the letter, particularly if he thought he would be on the lam for a while. If that's what it was, then I think he first saw Lily's letter when he went to Grimald Place to tell Harry about Occlumency lessons. Remember, Sirius was in the kitchen and he had a letter that neither the reader nor Harry ever sees, but Black and Snape are about to attack each other?





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Jun 29 01:18:04 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 01:18:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iudi0i+crof@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iudugc+9ik7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190684


> Alla:
>
> I do not have HBP in front of me, but doesn't Snape say - "Then save them
all"?
> In other words when the disgusting request failed, lets try something which
> Dumbledore may find less disgusting, which includes Harry and James? If so, I
> interpret that initially Snape wanted only Lily to live and I actually believe
> Voldemort when he says that Snape wanted Lily for himself. Then if her young
> husband is out of the way and her young child all the better. Of course I
still
> do not know how he imagined the grieving widow would submit to him, but I
would
> not put it beneath him to put her under Imperio and at least enjoy her in bed.

Potioncat:
I don't think canon supports this. Young Severus always treated Lily withrespect, Teen Sev's worst memory is calling her a Mudblood (and losiing her). He seems to have honored her wish to end their friendship---nothing in canon
suggests he bothered her in any way. He didn't seem to be stalking her as a young adult, and probably ddn't know she was in the Order.

I think her really wanted her to live for no purpose but to live.

I can't begin to explain why he didn't include her family when he spoke to DD, but he certainly couldn't ask for their lives with LV.

>
>
> Alla:
>
> Oh and before you guys point it out, of course Snape putting Lily under
Imperio and enjoying her in bed is a speculation, but it is based on
Voldemort's words. Who is of course so often a liar, but hey there are instances
in canon that he does speak the truth, so why cant this one be the one? :)

Potioncat:
I'm sure you wouldn't have to go far to find this plot in a fanfic.
 :-)

Sorry for the double post, I forgot to tidy up and forgot to answer the second part of Alla's post before I sent.









From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Jun 29 02:17:28 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:17:28 -0000
Subject: Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinSPuZDpCs0fJdHSGN01k_fCP3pVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iue1vo+ggbv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190685



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Margaret Dean <margdean56 at ...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 3:53 PM, nerona <nerona12 at ...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Nerona:
> >
> > > > I have several questions about the Deathly Hallows: First of them
> > > > on Bill's and Fleur's wedding during the ceremony Bill was called
> > > > William Arthur--why???
> > >
> > > Margaret:
> > > I would assume that's his full name, just as Ron is actually Ronald,
> > > Ginny is Ginevra, and so forth. Or am I misunderstanding your
> > > question?
> >
> > Nerona:
> > No no, you're right, no misunderstanding, but my question is Bill is
> > not a shortcut to William...
> 
> Not a nickname for William?  Yes it is, just as Bob is for Robert.  My
> late uncle William, for example, always went by "Bill."
> 
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean56 at ...>
>
Nikkalmati

And my brother Billy Tim = William Timothy to you. :>)

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Jun 29 02:21:25 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:21:25 -0000
Subject: Ministry departments
In-Reply-To: <74A6E499DB284E3D86A41F051CDB8176@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <iue275+r8t7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190686



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorothy dankanyin" <ddankanyin at ...> wrote:
>
>   I'm still a newbie here, but I wonder if any of you have given any thought to the Unspeakables?  Arthur Weasley mentioned them on the way to bring Harry to his hearing in book 5.  Has anyone got any theories on what the Unspeakables actually do?  Just a thought.
>   Think peace,
>    Dorothy
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Nikkalmati

They seem to be researchers in the DOM.  The name seems to mean that one is not allowed to speak of them, and they must be researching the great topics, Thought, Death, and Love.  I don't believe they ever are seen in canon, but they often play role in fanfiction. 

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Jun 29 02:26:14 2011
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:26:14 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iudi0i+crof@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iue2g6+2ii0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190687



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I do not have HBP in front of me, but doesn't Snape say - "Then save them all"?
> In other words when the disgusting request failed, lets try something which
> Dumbledore may find less disgusting, which includes Harry and James? If so, I
> interpret that initially Snape wanted only Lily to live and I actually believe
> Voldemort when he says that Snape wanted Lily for himself. Then if her young
> husband is out of the way and her young child all the better. Of course I still
> do not know how he imagined the grieving widow would submit to him, but I would
> not put it beneath him to put her under Imperio and at least enjoy her in bed.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh and before you guys point it out, of course Snape putting Lily under Imperio and enjoying her in bed  is a speculation, but it is based on Voldemort's words. Who is of course so often a liar, but hey there are instances in canon that he does speak the truth, so why cant this one be the one? :)
>
Nikkalmati

He is probably speaking the truth as he knew it.  Either he presumed that to be the purpose or Snape gave LV the only excuse LV  would be willing to accept.  I doubt Snape could have said: I have loved her since we were children and I just want to be sure she is alive in the world somewhere, so that I can feel life is still worth living.

Nikkalmati




From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Jun 29 03:08:32 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:08:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <iudigo+bdp1@eGroups.com>
References: <iudigo+bdp1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4E0A9730.4080709@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190688

Nerona:
> No no, you're right, no misunderstanding, but my question is Bill is
> not a shortcut to William...

     Former U.S. President William Jefferson Clinton, aka "Bill" 
Clinton, would disagree.

     Bart




From bart at moosewise.com  Wed Jun 29 03:09:23 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:09:23 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ministry departments
In-Reply-To: <74A6E499DB284E3D86A41F051CDB8176@DG22FG61>
References: <74A6E499DB284E3D86A41F051CDB8176@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <4E0A9763.6070502@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190689

dorothy:
>    I'm still a newbie here, but I wonder if any of you have given any thought to the Unspeakables?  Arthur Weasley mentioned them on the way to bring Harry to his hearing in book 5.  Has anyone got any theories on what the Unspeakables actually do?  Just a thought.

Bart:
     They make Harry Potter movies.

     Bart



From fenneyml at gmail.com  Wed Jun 29 01:30:47 2011
From: fenneyml at gmail.com (Margaret Fenney)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:30:47 -0400
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iud06m+85t8@eGroups.com>
References: <iubbor+hkab@eGroups.com>
	<iud06m+85t8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTiktb1NGOMBAT1_1P_jxABXxsRwDJw@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190690

> > Librasmile:
> > Yes, but those are the conclusions you come to when you see 
> > Snape as a human being which is not a position that any amount
> > of logic, rational argument, common sense or anything else that 
> > an anti-Snape person can accept. =^)
>
>  __._,_.__
>
> Bookcrazzzy (#190608):
> I don't think of Snape as being thoughtlessly evil by any means, 
> nor do I think him the purely innocent victim that you seem to 
> consider him to be. Consider that while a student, he developed 
> the Levicorpus spell that was used by James against him. How, 
> may I ask, did it become known among the students unless Snape 
> used it against someone at some point and would you think his 
> intent when developing it was "innocent"? He also developed 
> Sectumsempra specifically, as he noted in his potions book, "for 
> enemies." Sectumsempra is without question a lethal curse and I 
> don't think there is much question that the Marauders were included 
> in Snape's "enemies". By comparison, the Marauders developed the 
> Map which was clearly for mischief making, became animagi to 
> support a friend, and did not do anything at any point that 
> supports a theory of lethal intent except for the Shrieking Shack 
> incident. I don't see the Marauders as innocent either but I 
> believe them to be immature boys, not evil incarnate and I believe 
> Sirius to be the most impulsive, thoughtless and least mature of 
> the group but not a murderer.


Bookcrazzzy:

I am neither a hater nor a lover of Severus Snape or Sirius Black, 
seeing them both as human beings with strengths and weaknesses who 
have suffered great losses in their lives.  I find it frustrating 
when the lovers and haters make statements that are *completely 
unsupportable by canon* and word them *as though they are fact and 
anyone who disagrees is irrational*. Would it be possible for people 
to support statements with canon when possible and separate those 
kinds of statements from the ones that are purely opinion?  It really 
is possible to discuss Harry Potter without insulting people, whether 
or not it is done with a "smile".

JMO,

Bookcrazzzy







From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Jun 29 06:48:50 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 06:48:50 -0000
Subject: Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <iudigo+bdp1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iuehsi+smnt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190691

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nerona" <nerona12 at ...> wrote:

Nerona:
> > > I have several questions about the Deathly Hallows: First of them
> > > on Bill's and Fleur's wedding during the ceremony Bill was called
> > > William Arthur--why???

Margaret:
> > I would assume that's his full name, just as Ron is actually Ronald,
> > Ginny is Ginevra, and so forth.  Or am I misunderstanding your
> > question?
 
Nerona:
> No no, you're right, no misunderstanding, but my question is Bill is
> not a shortcut to William...

Geoff:
As several other members have pointed out, it is most certainly a 
familiar form of William. Nowadays, Bill is sometimes bestowed on 
a child as the full given name and there has also been a growth in 
the use of Will as the shortened form which became fashionable after 
the birth of Prince William.




From librasmile at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 15:24:23 2011
From: librasmile at yahoo.com (Librasmile)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:24:23 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTiktb1NGOMBAT1_1P_jxABXxsRwDJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <iufg37+refc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190692

> Bookcrazzzy:
>
> I am neither a hater nor a lover of Severus Snape or Sirius Black,
> seeing them both as human beings with strengths and weaknesses who
> have suffered great losses in their lives.  I find it frustrating
> when the lovers and haters make statements that are *completely
> unsupportable by canon* and word them *as though they are fact and
> anyone who disagrees is irrational*. Would it be possible for people
> to support statements with canon when possible and separate those
> kinds of statements from the ones that are purely opinion?  It really
> is possible to discuss Harry Potter without insulting people, whether
> or not it is done with a "smile".
>

Librasmile:
The smile is simply an attempt to be diplomatic. But one would think that logic or common sense would also have some role to play. Instead, what I'm seeing is folks continually proposing an argument that's being bent out of all kinds of realistic shape to support a conclusion that's been made without evidence. I keep seeing anti-Snape folks do backflips to preclude ANY possibility of him having any kind of positive trait at all. Which certainly isn't my idea of a discussion. I've been quite open in my bias but I'm not seeing the same thing. Not with everyone and no one's been insulting per se (including myself). But I can now see why I lurked for so long. There's very little that's new being created here. There are no new insights rather just constantly unproductive batting back and forth.



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 18:09:40 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:09:40 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iufg37+refc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iufpp4+8ohs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190693



> > Bookcrazzzy:
> >
> > I am neither a hater nor a lover of Severus Snape or Sirius Black,
> > seeing them both as human beings with strengths and weaknesses who
> > have suffered great losses in their lives.  I find it frustrating
> > when the lovers and haters make statements that are *completely
> > unsupportable by canon* and word them *as though they are fact and
> > anyone who disagrees is irrational*. Would it be possible for people
> > to support statements with canon when possible and separate those
> > kinds of statements from the ones that are purely opinion?  It really
> > is possible to discuss Harry Potter without insulting people, whether
> > or not it is done with a "smile".
> >
> 
> Librasmile:
> The smile is simply an attempt to be diplomatic. But one would think that logic or common sense would also have some role to play. Instead, what I'm seeing is folks continually proposing an argument that's being bent out of all kinds of realistic shape to support a conclusion that's been made without evidence. I keep seeing anti-Snape folks do backflips to preclude ANY possibility of him having any kind of positive trait at all. Which certainly isn't my idea of a discussion. I've been quite open in my bias but I'm not seeing the same thing. Not with everyone and no one's been insulting per se (including myself). But I can now see why I lurked for so long. There's very little that's new being created here. There are no new insights rather just constantly unproductive batting back and forth.
>


Alla:

Canon based speculations had always been allowed here, as long as they are clearly marked as such. As to the same topics being rehashed, the same going back and forth, absolutely over the years same topics came up again and again and again. If it is not your idea of the discussion, well, it is not your idea of the discussion.

There are other interesting topics that come up and also again and again and again. You are either interested in it, or you are not.

We also usually discuss the book characters, not pro Snape folks or anti Snape folks here. 




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Wed Jun 29 15:47:26 2011
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:47:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ministry departments
References: <74A6E499DB284E3D86A41F051CDB8176@DG22FG61> <4E0A9763.6070502@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <857ED9FA016941EEB3B926F5B74C9815@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 190694

> dorothy:
>>    I'm still a newbie here, but I wonder if any of you have given any 
>> thought to the Unspeakables?  Arthur Weasley mentioned them on the way to 
>> bring Harry to his hearing in book 5.  Has anyone got any theories on 
>> what the Unspeakables actually do?  Just a thought.
>
> Bart:
>     They make Harry Potter movies.
>
Dorothy:
  Yes, some of the movies appear to be made by those who shouldn't even want 
to take credit, hence, Unspeakables.  But, reading the books would've helped 
them.
  Think peace,
   Dorothy 




From ddankanyin at cox.net  Wed Jun 29 15:45:04 2011
From: ddankanyin at cox.net (dorothy dankanyin)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:45:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ministry departments
References: <iue275+r8t7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6667553716FE4ECBA5C24E3EE8E56BAC@DG22FG61>

No: HPFGUIDX 190695

> Nikkalmati
>
> They seem to be researchers in the DOM.  The name seems to mean that one 
> is not allowed to speak of them, and they must be researching the great 
> topics, Thought, Death, and Love.  I don't believe they ever are seen in 
> canon, but they often play role in fanfiction.

Dorothy:
  I don't read fanfics, but I thought the Unspeakables must be into more 
"scary" stuff than research.  Of course there's nothing in canon about them 
since they appear to be a throwaway, but it did lead me to believe something 
almost sinister.  Just a thought here, though.
  Think peace,
   Dorothy 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 18:23:14 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:23:14 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iudugc+9ik7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iufqii+rlj9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190696



> Potioncat:
> I don't think canon supports this. Young Severus always treated Lily withrespect, Teen Sev's worst memory is calling her a Mudblood (and losiing her). He seems to have honored her wish to end their friendship---nothing in canon
> suggests he bothered her in any way. He didn't seem to be stalking her as a young adult, and probably ddn't know she was in the Order.
> 
> I think her really wanted her to live for no purpose but to live.
> 
> I can't begin to explain why he didn't include her family when he spoke to DD, but he certainly couldn't ask for their lives with LV.

Alla:

Of course it is only speculation  based on his plea to Voldemort, I agree that there are no canon facts to support it. But I do not agree that he always treated her with respect, up till he called her that horrible word I would agree that he did, but that to me showed that he may have loved her but thought of her as 'lower species" so to speak than himself. Even when they met and she asked him to explain about muggleborns, I thought that was already a sign of problems to come.

I do agree that he could not have asked for her family from LV, however taken together with him not asking for her family from Dumbledore to me suggests that this was his true wish and he truly did not give a damn about whether Harry and James would live. To me him not asking to save them from Dumbledore is a canon fact, so is it really a long way to go from this fact that he would have wanted Lily for himself?

> 
> >
> >
> > Alla:
> >
> > Oh and before you guys point it out, of course Snape putting Lily under
> Imperio and enjoying her in bed is a speculation, but it is based on
> Voldemort's words. Who is of course so often a liar, but hey there are instances
> in canon that he does speak the truth, so why cant this one be the one? :)
> 
> Potioncat:
> I'm sure you wouldn't have to go far to find this plot in a fanfic.
>  :-)

Alla:

Heee, absolutely. Again, I am not claiming that this is a fact, but to me this canon based speculation is stronger than many we have seen over the years. Fact - Snape did not care that Harry and James live or die. That would be given Snape benefit of the doubt, but the same fact (him not asking Dumbledore for their lives till Dumbledore expresses disgust and not willingness real or imaginery to save Lily) could be translated as him wanting them to die, right?

Fact - he loved Lily. So taken together, again, is it so outlandish that he wanted them dead and Lily as his mistress?




From nerona12 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 11:57:15 2011
From: nerona12 at yahoo.com (nerona)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:57:15 -0000
Subject: Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <iue1vo+ggbv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iuf3ur+ftcf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190697


> Nikkalmati:
>
> And my brother Billy Tim = William Timothy to you. :>)
>
Nerona:
Oh ok sorry I didn't know that.




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 18:56:42 2011
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:56:42 -0000
Subject: Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <iudu5o+fq63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iufsha+7urp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190698



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "willsonteam" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Nerona:
> > 
> > Why did Snape search Grimmauld Place??? Now I remember something
> > about Lily photo with Harry on a broom stick but what was he
> > looking for??
> >
> 
> Potioncat:
> It's been a while since I read DH and I'm not sure if I ever knew what Snape was looking for. He may have gone just for the letter, ... I think he first saw Lily's letter when he went to Grimald Place to tell Harry about Occlumency lessons. Remember, Sirius was in the kitchen and he had a letter that neither the reader nor Harry ever sees, but Black and Snape are about to attack each other?
>

Steve replies:

When H/R/H arrive at Grimmauld Place in Deathy Hallows, it has been pretty thoroughly turned over. But do we know that was all Snape's doing? 

How much of it was Mundungus, and how much was by the Death Eaters in general once Hermione let one of them inside the barrier of the protective enchantments? Though, I guess the DE access occurred later. 

I'm guessing if it was substantially Snape, he might have been looking for some clue as to what Harry's plan was. With Dumbledore gone, and Snape estranged from the Order of the Phoenix, I'm guessing he was a little short on information to help himself help Harry.

Further, if Snape was still secretly working for the Order, he might have been trying to prevent anyone else from finding information that might be laying around.

But again, we don't know to what extent Mundungus tore the place up. So, the chaos we see might not be all Snape's doing.   

Steve/bboyminn




From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Wed Jun 29 22:07:38 2011
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:07:38 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparition help please
In-Reply-To: <iufsha+7urp@eGroups.com>
References: <iufsha+7urp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4569E596F2034161867A1D55B9BFAEDB@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 190699

Can someone please tell me where the descriptions of Apparition are 
in the books. I'm only up to OotP ch15 so haven't reached these 
descriptions yet! I'm thinking about the first time Harry apparated 
(side-along with Dumbledore) in HBP, as I need the description of 
what it feels like. 

Thanks,
Taya 




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Wed Jun 29 22:46:47 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:46:47 -0000
Subject: Apparition help please
In-Reply-To: <4569E596F2034161867A1D55B9BFAEDB@TrekyPC>
Message-ID: <iuga0n+v9e2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190700



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Clark" <liz.treky at ...> wrote:

Taya
> Can someone please tell me where the descriptions of Apparition are 
> in the books. I'm only up to OotP ch15 so haven't reached these 
> descriptions yet! I'm thinking about the first time Harry apparated 
> (side-along with Dumbledore) in HBP, as I need the description of 
> what it feels like. 
 
Geoff:
'He (Dumbledore) came to an abrupt halt at the end of Privet Drive.

"You have not, of course, passed your Apparition test?" he said.

"No," said Harry. "I thought you had to be seventeen?"

"You do," said Dumbledore. "So you will need to hold on to my 
arm very tightly. My left, if you don't mind - as you have noticed, 
my wand arm is a little fragile at the moment." 

Harry gripped Dumbledore's proffered forearm.

"Very good," said Dumbledore. "Well, here we go."

Harry felt Dumbledore's arm twist away from him and redoubled  
his grip: the next thing he knew, everything went black; he was 
being pressed very hard from all directions; he could not breathe, 
there were iron bands tightening around his chest; his eyeballs 
were being forced back into his head; his eardrums were being 
pushed deeper into his skull and then -

He gulped great lungfuls of cold night air and opened his streaming 
eyes. He felt as though he had just been forced through a very 
tight rubber tube....

....Harry realised that he had just Apparated for the first time in 
his life.'
(HBP "Horace Slughorn" p,60 UK edition)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jun 30 00:23:42 2011
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 00:23:42 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iufqii+rlj9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iugfme+belu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190701


> Alla:
> 
> Of course it is only speculation  based on his plea to Voldemort, I agree that there are no canon facts to support it. But I do not agree that he always treated her with respect, up till he called her that horrible word I would agree that he did, but that to me showed that he may have loved her but thought of her as 'lower species" so to speak than himself. Even when they met and she asked him to explain about muggleborns, I thought that was already a sign of problems to come.

Pippin:
Have you forgotten that Snape is a potions genius? If what he wanted was the physical experience of Lily in bed, all he needed was a few strands of her hair, some polyjuice potion, and a partner. In fact, considering his acting ability,   with a bit of nerve, a few strands of *James*'s hair, and maybe a dose of felix for luck along with the pjp, he could enjoy Lily herself. Students of British legend will remember that King Arthur himself was conceived by a similar ruse.

But that's not what Snape wanted, IMO. What he wanted was for Lily to prefer him to James. I'm not denying that he had sexual feelings for her. But canon does not show us his feelings as  degraded. I do not think you will find much support for the idea that the silver doe is the creation of a man who fancied himself a rapist. 

Canon does show us that sexual love can unseat the moral compass. But it also shows us that other kinds of love have the same power. 

I think when Snape first asked for Lily's life, Voldemort did not bother himself too much about why he wanted it. From JKR's comments, Snape seems to have thought he could turn her. That would be a win-win for Voldemort. If Snape succeeded, well and good. And if not, why, Lily herself would punish Snape for his insolence in thinking he could succeed where his master had so far failed. 

 Snape, on his return, had to be prepared with a reason that he was still willing to serve. I think it was at that time that Snape led his master to think his feelings for Lily were purely carnal, and there were other women more worthy of him. 

I don't believe Snape ever thought of Lily as being a lower species.  I think young Snape truly believed  his  feelings about her were separate from his feelings about Muggleborns in general. That, maybe, is a danger of being able to compartmentalize one's feelings as an occlumens is able to do. 

Keep in mind that when he used the M word to Lily he was sixteen years old, exhausted (from the exam) and being subjected to emotional and physical assault. I would not like to be held responsible for anything I said under such circumstances, would you?  It would be all too easy for Snape to believe, despite his slip, that it was still possible to have one set of feelings about Lily and another about her race. 

Of course he couldn't do it. Lily was right about that. But Snape didn't understand that  until much later. We know he finally did understand it  because he stops Phineas Nigellus from using the M word about Hermione, whom Snape does not care for personally one bit. 

I think, though Snape obviously accepted and honored Lily's decision to die for Harry,  he  thought it would have done Lily no harm if Harry and James had died instead. He was unable to see James as anything but a conceited bully, and how could James's son be anything but the same? After all, even Harry wonders how the James he saw in the Pensieve could possibly have won Lily's love and wonders if she was forced into marrying him. Far from thinking he would put Lily under the Imperius curse, Snape was probably persuading himself that  James had done it. 

Pippin






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 01:00:12 2011
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 01:00:12 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iugfme+belu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iughqs+2ser@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190702



.> Pippin:
> Have you forgotten that Snape is a potions genius? If what he wanted was the physical experience of Lily in bed, all he needed was a few strands of her hair, some polyjuice potion, and a partner. In fact, considering his acting ability,   with a bit of nerve, a few strands of *James*'s hair, and maybe a dose of felix for luck along with the pjp, he could enjoy Lily herself. Students of British legend will remember that King Arthur himself was conceived by a similar ruse.
> 
> But that's not what Snape wanted, IMO. What he wanted was for Lily to prefer him to James. I'm not denying that he had sexual feelings for her. But canon does not show us his feelings as  degraded. I do not think you will find much support for the idea that the silver doe is the creation of a man who fancied himself a rapist. 
> 
> Canon does show us that sexual love can unseat the moral compass. But it also shows us that other kinds of love have the same power.

Alla:

Of course it was not my intention to argue speculatively or strictly canon based that Snape only wanted experience of Lily in bed. Of course he wanted her to prefer him to James, however IMO it transformed into adult Snape just *wanting* her and no matter what.

And just to clarify, if canon indeed tells us that sexual love can unseat the moral compass, that is surely not my intention to express any sort of agreement with it. I argue that it is *Snape* who had his moral compass deeply unseated for a very long time, untill he finally learned under Dumbledore's slavery erm... I mean tutelage that all lives are worth saving, sexual love in itself has nothing to do with it and surely is not the lower form of love or anything like that.

Sorry, Pippin, it is not directed at you, but I get very impatient at the thought that such argument can even be associated with myself, so really want to be very clear.

But come to think of it, you can be right, I am thinking of Dumbledore here, but then, if that was JKR's intent, well, no, just no.

And Oy, silver doe maybe the proof of that too. Shakes head. But yes I am not denying that Snape finally learned that all lives are worth saving. 


Pippin:
<SNIP> 
>.> I don't believe Snape ever thought of Lily as being a lower species.  I think young Snape truly believed  his  feelings about her were separate from his feelings about Muggleborns in general. That, maybe, is a danger of being able to compartmentalize one's feelings as an occlumens is able to do. 
> 
> Keep in mind that when he used the M word to Lily he was sixteen years old, exhausted (from the exam) and being subjected to emotional and physical assault. I would not like to be held responsible for anything I said under such circumstances, would you?  It would be all too easy for Snape to believe, despite his slip, that it was still possible to have one set of feelings about Lily and another about her race. <SNIP>

Alla:

We have to agree to disagree here and I may have even gave Snape a little lattitude  if I thought that he spit that word by accident.

But he joined the gang of terrorists who considered Muggleborns lower species of life and to me that shows that yes indeed this was his mindset starting from the time poor Lily asked him that question.


Pippin:
> Of course he couldn't do it. Lily was right about that. But Snape didn't understand that  until much later. We know he finally did understand it  because he stops Phineas Nigellus from using the M word about Hermione, whom Snape does not care for personally one bit.

Alla:

True, I hope he did. Or he may have just again did what you claimed he did when he was a kid - comparmentalized his feelings only now he was remembering it with regret because he was thinking of Lily when he did that.
 
Pippin: 
> I think, though Snape obviously accepted and honored Lily's decision to die for Harry,  he  thought it would have done Lily no harm if Harry and James had died instead. He was unable to see James as anything but a conceited bully, and how could James's son be anything but the same? After all, even Harry wonders how the James he saw in the Pensieve could possibly have won Lily's love and wonders if she was forced into marrying him. Far from thinking he would put Lily under the Imperius curse, Snape was probably persuading himself that  James had done it. 


Alla:

I hear you only what you are describing makes me feel even more disgust for Snape. I thought he accepted her decision that she chose James and resolved not to bother her no more?

And what did the baby do to him? Harry should be punished some more for Snape delivering him and his parents to Voldemort?




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Jun 30 03:22:57 2011
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (willsonteam)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 03:22:57 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iufg37+refc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iugq6i+roig@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190703


>
> > Bookcrazzzy:
snip
 Would it be possible for people
> > to support statements with canon when possible and separate those
> > kinds of statements from the ones that are purely opinion?  It really is possible to discuss Harry Potter without insulting people, whether or not it is done with a "smile".

Potioncat:
Ah the good old days...we used to be very particular about canon based debates. Even then, interpretions of canon could vary a lot. And some of us who argue from different sides of the topic are really friends.
> >
> 
> Librasmile:
snio
> But I can now see why I lurked for so long. There's very little that's new being created here. There are no new insights rather just constantly unproductive batting back and forth.

Potioncat:
But it's so much fun! 

You're right, no new ideas. The best we can hope for is a new understanding now that we know the ending and more of the beginning. We used to talk about movie contamination--where we would recall a fact that was from the movie rather than the books, but there is also HPfGU contamination. That comes from taking a portion of text and debating it long term, so that the different opinions become more important than the actual context of the event being discussed. Closer to home, having spent years defending the Great Snape, as I've been reading PoA I've discovered he really is a  jerk. 

But I still like the character.




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Jun 30 04:05:48 2011
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 00:05:48 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch
 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <iughqs+2ser@eGroups.com>
References: <iughqs+2ser@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4E0BF61C.8030403@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190704

Alla:
>
> But he joined the gang of terrorists who considered Muggleborns lower species of life and to me that shows that yes indeed this was his mindset starting from the time poor Lily asked him that question.

Bart:
I recall a story about a spiritual teacher who, in town to give a 
lecture, was staying at a hotel. He stepped out on the balcony with one 
of his hosts, where they spotted a gang of teenagers stripping a car. 
The lecturer said, "I know what they are doing is wrong, but look at the 
skill and almost art with which they are working, together in harmony. 
It's almost like poetry...hey, WAIT A MINUTE! That's MY car!"

Similarly, I suspect that Snape, like many bigots, depersonalized the 
targets of his bigotry, and didn't associate them with people he knew 
and liked, personally. It is only when Lily becomes the target of Morty 
that he realizes, "Hey, that's MY friend!" Even then, DD has to push to 
get Snape to see the extra step that every victim is somebody's friend, 
and what the Morty and the Deatheaters (whom, good name for a music 
group) are doing is just plain wrong.

However, Snape cannot look at Harry without seeing James. He looks at 
Harry's behavior as the person who does not differentiate pushing an old 
woman into the path of a speeding car, and pushing an old woman out of 
the path of the speeding car; he looks at Harry's actions as the sort of 
things James would do, but does not look further to see the difference 
in motives. James was a privileged, upper-class a**h**** when he was in 
school. Snape was an underprivileged nerd. One can infer from canon 
(notably Narcissa's attitude towards him in Spinner's End) that Lucius 
Malfoy probably took Snape under his wing when they were in Slytherin. 
Consider: Snape's notes in HBP show him to be a superior potions 
student, yet Sluggy gives no indication of Snape being exceptional, 
while he had nothing but praise for Lily (and look how he treats Harry 
for simply following Snape's instructions). It can also be inferred that 
Snape saw James as the golden boy who had nothing to do but to bully the 
nerd, which drove Snape even more into the hands of the Death Eaters. By 
joining with them, he had protection, friendship, and probably even 
admiration.

So, while Snape was bound to protect Harry, he still resented that 
Harry, too, had become the golden boy, and mistook his behavior for 
attention-getting, considering himself to be above the rules, and 
possibly even saw Harry as the bully in the Harry/Draco relationship.

     Bart





From kat7555 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 05:49:08 2011
From: kat7555 at yahoo.com (kathy)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:49:08 -0000
Subject: Chapter Discussion: Prisoner of Azkaban Ch 19: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <4E0BF61C.8030403@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <iuh2ok+nov7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190705


> Bart:
> <snip> It can also be inferred that Snape saw James as the golden
> boy who had nothing to do but to bully the nerd, which drove Snape
> even more into the hands of the Death Eaters. By joining with them,
> he had protection, friendship, and probably even admiration.
>
> So, while Snape was bound to protect Harry, he still resented that
> Harry, too, had become the golden boy, and mistook his behavior for
> attention-getting, considering himself to be above the rules, and
> possibly even saw Harry as the bully in the Harry/Draco relationship.


Kathy:
Harry never was the Golden Boy. His aunt and uncle resented him and
his cousin was a huge bully. His fellow students were quick to judge
him especially in the Chamber of Secrets when Harry was speaking
Parseltongue. Snape's biggest mistake was not getting to know Harry
as a separate person. Can you imagine how Sirius would have reacted
if Snape had actually bonded with Harry?

Kathy




From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Jun 30 17:46:09 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:46:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Discussion HPDH
In-Reply-To: <iudigo+bdp1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1309455969.73501.YahooMailClassic@web113906.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

> Nerona:
> No no, you're right, no misunderstanding, but my question is Bill
> is not a shortcut to William...

June
Bill is short for William. I have a step brother named?Willian who
goes by Bill. Willliam Shatner is often refered to as Bill Shatner
and so fourth. I don't know who told you that Bill was not short
for William but they were incorrect.











From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Jun 30 17:56:00 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:56:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ministry departments
In-Reply-To: <6667553716FE4ECBA5C24E3EE8E56BAC@DG22FG61>
Message-ID: <1309456560.3715.YahooMailClassic@web113915.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190707


> Nikkalmati
> They seem to be researchers in the DOM. The name seems to mean
> that one is not allowed to speak of them, and they must be
> researching the great topics, Thought, Death, and Love. I don't
> believe they ever are seen in canon, but they often play role
> in fanfiction.

> Dorothy:
> I don't read fanfics, but I thought the Unspeakables must be
> into more "scary" stuff than research. Of course there's nothing
> in canon about them since they appear to be a throwaway, but it
> did lead me to believe something almost sinister. Just a thought
> here, though.


June:
I have always thought the same as Dorothy on this subject. Arthur
Weasley also pointed out a member from the unspeakables department
at the Quidditch World Cup in GOF.












From doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca  Thu Jun 30 18:02:37 2011
From: doctorwhofan02 at yahoo.ca (June Ewing)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Apparition help please
In-Reply-To: <iuga0n+v9e2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1309456957.60095.YahooMailClassic@web113910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190708



> Geoff:
<snip>
> Harry felt Dumbledore's arm twist away from him and redoubled
his grip: the next thing he knew, everything went black; he was
being pressed very hard from all directions; he could not breathe,
there were iron bands tightening around his chest; his eyeballs
were being forced back into his head; his eardrums were being
> pushed deeper into his skull and then -

> He gulped great lungfuls of cold night air and opened his
streaming eyes. He felt as though he had just been forced through
> a very tight rubber tube....

> ....Harry realised that he had just Apparated for the first time
in his life.'
> (HBP "Horace Slughorn" p,60 UK edition)


June:
Really makes one understand why a lot of witches and wizards
prefer brooms, doesn't it?








From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Jun 30 19:33:01 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:33:01 -0000
Subject: Apparition help please
In-Reply-To: <1309456957.60095.YahooMailClassic@web113910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <iuij1d+b2h9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190709

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, June Ewing <doctorwhofan02 at ...> wrote:
 
Geoff:
> <snip>
> > Harry felt Dumbledore's arm twist away from him and redoubled
> his grip: the next thing he knew, everything went black; he was
> being pressed very hard from all directions; he could not breathe,
> there were iron bands tightening around his chest; his eyeballs
> were being forced back into his head; his eardrums were being
> > pushed deeper into his skull and then -
> 
> > He gulped great lungfuls of cold night air and opened his
> streaming eyes. He felt as though he had just been forced through
> > a very tight rubber tube....
> 
> > ....Harry realised that he had just Apparated for the first time
> in his life.'
> > (HBP "Horace Slughorn" p,60 UK edition)
 
June:
> Really makes one understand why a lot of witches and wizards
> prefer brooms, doesn't it?

Geoff:
Which was almost Harry's comment just after this piece in the book.
:-)




From andy.mills at btinternet.com  Thu Jun 30 19:26:20 2011
From: andy.mills at btinternet.com (Andy Mills)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:26:20 +0100
Subject: Did anyone else notice this?
Message-ID: <4E0CCDDC.8020208@btinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190710

Just a little point I picked up last time I listened to the books.  Did 
anyone else notice that, when the dementors were first mentioned, before 
Harry actually saw a dementor and understood what they actually were, 
everyone just called them the Azkaban guards.  Once Harry had seen a 
dementor, everyone called them dementors when referring to them rather 
than just the Azkaban guards.  Just a little thing I noticed after 
listening to the books a few times, I didn't take any notice the first 
time but it became more obvious after a few listens.

AJM



From d2dmiles at yahoo.de  Thu Jun 30 20:10:47 2011
From: d2dmiles at yahoo.de (Miles)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:10:47 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did anyone else notice this?
In-Reply-To: <4E0CCDDC.8020208@btinternet.com>
References: <4E0CCDDC.8020208@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <0EC999CDB2C24DAE89913EB1DB1BBD74@MilesPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 190711

Andy Mills wrote:
:Just a little point I picked up last time I listened to the books. Did
:anyone else notice that, when the dementors were first mentioned, before
:Harry actually saw a dementor and understood what they actually were,
:everyone just called them the Azkaban guards. Once Harry had seen a
:dementor, everyone called them dementors when referring to them rather
:than just the Azkaban guards.

Well, I didn't realize this specifically. But it is not a surprise.
The entire story - with few exceptions - is told from Harry's perspective. 
So, the reader knows what Harry knows and usually does not know what he 
doesn't. So, until Harry learns, that the "Azkaban guards" are called 
"dementors", the narrator does not know the names. After he gets that 
information, he uses it.

Miles 




From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Thu Jun 30 20:16:29 2011
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 21:16:29 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apparition help please
In-Reply-To: <iuij1d+b2h9@eGroups.com>
References: <iuij1d+b2h9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <F8ACB602983D4EB8945678F0CE3888D0@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 190712

Taya responds:
Thanks guys. Are there anymore quotes about what it feels like to Apparate?

I certainly wouldn't enjoy it, sounds like something similar to a theme park 
ride... and I avoid them like the plague. I have noticed however, that there 
doesn't seem to be a nice and comfortable way of travelling in the WW.

Apparition - you get squeezed
Floo Powder - you get spun around and thrown out
Brooms - you get cold and wet (unless travelling in warm dry weather - in 
the UK, how often does that happen!)
Flying carpets - outlawed in the UK
Flying aniamls - same as brooms

Not sure if I missed any other usual methods of travel in the WW. 
Personally, given a choice I'd have something unusual, like a covered 
carriage drawn by winged horses!! 




From liz.treky at ntlworld.com  Thu Jun 30 20:19:08 2011
From: liz.treky at ntlworld.com (Liz Clark)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 21:19:08 +0100
Subject: Did anyone else notice this?
In-Reply-To: <4E0CCDDC.8020208@btinternet.com>
References: <4E0CCDDC.8020208@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <C10E0B978E824DE6A6D1EF8954D684A1@TrekyPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 190713

> AJM:
> Did anyone else notice that, when the dementors were first 
> mentioned, before Harry actually saw a dementor and understood
> what they actually were, everyone just called them the Azkaban 
> guards.  Once Harry had seen a dementor, everyone called them 
> dementors when referring to them rather than just the Azkaban 
> guards.  <snip>


Taya responds:
I noticed this too. It happens a lot, until JKR reveals what 
something is, everyone calls it whatever Harry thinks it is. 
Once Harry finds out the proper name, everyone calls it that. 
I think it has to do with the fact that if HeRmione called 
them Dementors, Harry would then ask, what's a Dementor? 
And the reveal would be ruined IMO :)




From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com  Thu Jun 30 21:18:35 2011
From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 21:18:35 -0000
Subject: Apparition help please
In-Reply-To: <F8ACB602983D4EB8945678F0CE3888D0@TrekyPC>
Message-ID: <iuip7b+vn52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 190714

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz Clark" <liz.treky at ...> wrote:

Taya:
> Thanks guys. Are there anymore quotes about what it feels like to Apparate?
 
> I certainly wouldn't enjoy it, sounds like something similar to a theme park 
> ride... and I avoid them like the plague. I have noticed however, that there 
> doesn't seem to be a nice and comfortable way of travelling in the WW.
 
> Apparition - you get squeezed
> Floo Powder - you get spun around and thrown out
> Brooms - you get cold and wet (unless travelling in warm dry weather - in 
> the UK, how often does that happen!)
> Flying carpets - outlawed in the UK
> Flying aniamls - same as brooms
 
> Not sure if I missed any other usual methods of travel in the WW. 
> Personally, given a choice I'd have something unusual, like a covered 
> carriage drawn by winged horses!!

Geoff:
In other words, the Beauxbatons style of travel! How about a 
"submarine" ship - like the one in which the Durmstrang delegation 
arrived?

I think that, despite what causes their passengers to see them, travelling 
gently along the Hogwarts drive behind a Threstral seems reasonable....
and you could always try a turn around the paddock on a bucking 
Hippogriff.
:-)